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Why Worm Writers Stay Free

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the future-of-the-net dept.

savaget writes "There is an interesting Wired article explaining why worm writers are getting scott free despite their destructive deeds." Nothing really new: overworked law officials, bragging worm writers, you do the math ;) I still find it amazing. The bandwidth wasted by a successful worm is gigantic. To say nothing of time and disk space.

373 comments

  1. First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

    first?

  2. page lengthening post! by Klerck · · Score: -1

    Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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    1. Re:page lengthening post! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

      Can someone *PLEASE* mod these stupid posts down?

    2. Re:page lengthening post! by core10k · · Score: -1

      Goddamn it Klerk, will you stop? You give the rest of us trolls a bad name.

      --
      Go Kathryn Thurber!
  3. The Turd Report 12/27/2001 by The+Turd+Report · · Score: -1

    We had pork loin for lunch yesterday. It was pretty good. I had a steak burrito and pork tamalies for dinner. It was also very good. My turd was much more solid today. It took a bit of pushing to get it out, but that seems to be the norm. It was a real stinker due to the hot sauce I put on the burrito. It almost made me tear-up due to the stench. The smell lingered in the bathroom for a good 15 minutes. The turd was about 16in long and was of an average diameter. It was a consistant brown color with black chunks. (I put black beans in my burritos) It was a satisfying turd and I give it a rating of 7.

    --
    Michael Loves Me!
    1. Re:The Turd Report 12/27/2001 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

      One question.. do you use a rubrick to rate your turds or is the rating purely subjective? You should post the rubrick some day if you have written one.. that might help others rate their own turds.

  4. page lengthening post! by iamklerck · · Score: -1

    Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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  5. page lengthening post! by Gay+Linux+Conspiracy · · Score: -1

    Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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  6. page lengthening post! by Openly+Gay+Troll · · Score: -1

    Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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    --
























  7. CmdrTaco really a worm? by SamBeckett · · Score: -1, Troll

    He spreads his "so called" knoweldge to the mindless masses that is slashdot. Why does he live in Michigan? He should live on the LEFT COAST

  8. Redundant Racist post by Ralph+JewHater+Nader · · Score: -1

    The Jews control the banks and the media.

    --

    1. Re:Redundant Racist post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

      They also control getting first!

      What's the difference between a Jew and a canoo? A canoo tips!

    2. Re:Redundant Racist post by core10k · · Score: -1

      I'm trying hard to stick my worm in Kathryn Thurber.

      -Rob Malda

      --
      Go Kathryn Thurber!
    3. Re:Redundant Racist post by Ralph+JewHater+Nader · · Score: -1

      Kathryn Thurber is a jewish whore who is only fit to blow negroes and other subhuman cocks.

      --

  9. Don't you hate it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    when people split a sentance between the subject line and body?

    On another note - immagine a Beowulf Cluster of worms? Could it be done?

  10. Hilarious part by ergo98 · · Score: 5, Funny

    SirCam contains this text in its code: "SirCam Version 1.0 Copyright 2001 2rP Made in / Hecho en - Cuitzeo, Michoacan Mexico."
    Smith has a hunch that the author of SirCam is or was in Cuitzeo, and is probably a student. Cuitzeo is located 16 miles from Morelia City, which boasts a large university.

    Talk about a blinding flash of the glaringly obvious...

    1. Re:Hilarious part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The really hilarious part is that the hunch is probably correct. You'd think that these guys would be smart enough lie about their location, but maybe since there have been so few busts...

    2. Re:Hilarious part by NiftyNews · · Score: 1

      It would be smarter to call yourself Susan and put in a city other than the one you live in.

      I'm always suprised by people who believe everything they see on the net, especially about personal info. Some people have this mindset that if personal info is available, it must be true. One of the best ways to throw someone OFF your trail is to leave gobs of false info that can be discovered with a little detective work, making the finder assume it is correct.

      --
      ------
      Today's Top Deals
    3. Re:Hilarious part by ergo98 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well the context of the story was that the virus writers are usually incredibly dumb, and they have a habit of putting real information to brag to their friends (and enemies) about what they'd done. Imagine going to all that trouble and no one believes that it was really you.

      Having said that, people often reveal a lot about themselves even when they include fake information (i.e. the classic is the "opposite" syndrome: If you're a young male say that you're an elderly woman. It doesn't take a genius to flip them).

    4. Re:Hilarious part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

      How can a city "boast" a large university?
      Don't you mean to say that it "has" one?
      I would really appreciate if Slashdot postings
      did not have so much marketing-speak, which
      bears no resemblence to English.

    5. Re:Hilarious part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know that was a quote from the article... right?

      Save us from the cliche police.

      lol

    6. Re:Hilarious part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if I am 19 years old I would say the opposite, -19...wait. There goes your theory! What is the opposite of brown eyes? It does not take a genius... come on! So the opposite theory seem pretty weak to me. Everything does not have an opposite.

    7. Re:Hilarious part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There may be something to that. When I regged at nytimes I told them I was a wealthy middle-aged women in the highest income bracket you could tick off. Besides, everything does have an opposite - nothing.

    8. Re:Hilarious part by ergo98 · · Score: 1

      Well I think you have to liberally interpret what I said with a bit of reason. My point is moreso that there is a conscious choice to the false information people give usually, and conscious choices have a logic to them that can often give away the falsifier. Take a look at a of less-skilled poker players for an example.

    9. Re:Hilarious part by Magius_AR · · Score: 1
      Yeah, we all know those worm writers would never lie about their location.

      Nawwwwww, they're too ethical for that.

      Magius_AR

  11. Trivial? What will happen with a "real" virus? by jjsaul · · Score: 0, Troll

    As the article implies, authorities deem these attacks trivial because they cannot see actual physical damage done to equipment. Economic damages, bandwidth loss, destroyed data, and wasted time are harder for a cop to take seriously than, for instance, a body on the ground. Of course, the fact that virus writers are usually script-kiddie teenagers helps to make the attacks seems like pranks. It is an interesting thought experiment to consider what will happen when a teenager playing in an advanced biology course cultures a virulent bacteria or virus. Or consider if "goner" had been tracked to the other side of the tanks... to a group a Palestinians.

  12. Constructive Uses? by InfinityWpi · · Score: 2

    Why don't these people put their worms to work doing somethign constructive? A SETI/RC5/whatever else you can do distribured worm would waste even more bandwidth, but at least it would have a purpose beyond just screwing things up.

    1. Re:Constructive Uses? by ergo98 · · Score: 1

      There are many who would say that there is little useful purpose behind distributed code cracking or filtering random space noise.

    2. Re:Constructive Uses? by arrow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It has been done. I can't remember off the top of my head which one, but I cleaned up a virus infection about a year ago that installed the distributed.net client.

      Its gotten bad enough that Symantec has posted a KB article on it, here.

      Distributed.net also has a trojans page here.

      ---
      www.symetrix.net

      --
      symetrix. We are building a religion, a limited edition.
    3. Re:Constructive Uses? by emurphy94108 · · Score: 1

      I was looking at my web server's access log for the first time in forever yesterday (it's just a personal website), and I discovered that about 99% of the 6 megabyte log was attempted intrusions by either Code Red, nimda, or similar worms. Hardly any of the traffic was legitimate attempts to visit my site. Are there still that many infected IIS machines out there trying to infect new machines? It's pretty annoying; whenever I need to look at real traffic, I have to wade through hundreds of lines of crap.

      --
      "The Artist, seeking Beauty, discovers Truth; The Scientist, seeking Truth, discovers Beauty."
    4. Re:Constructive Uses? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

      They are doing something constructive: they're making a big disincentive for people to use Microsoft platforms.

    5. Re:Constructive Uses? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i want someone to write up a worm that removes lookout express & installs it with a decent email client instead, while at the same time migrating the users settings over to the new client & redirecting all their lookout shortcuts to it.

      think of it not so much as a "virus" but more of a vaccine.

      betcha most victims would never even know they were hit.

    6. Re:Constructive Uses? by BinBoy · · Score: 1

      Because doing something constructive requires more effort and intelligence than doing something stuipid.

    7. Re:Constructive Uses? by Sly+Mongoose · · Score: 3, Funny

      If you want to write a "constructive" virus, let me make a suggestion:

      Target the mail-spamers. Go looking for the popular spam-blaster software and alter it to send 100,000 e-mails an hour to the Whitehouse. Locate 10,000,000 e-mail addresses in a file and randomize the domain and username. Alter the body-text of the out-going message to delete all telephone numbers, e-mail addresses, URLs, etc, and add a message including the senders real e-mail address, phone number, and whatever else personal info can be gleaned from their system configuration. Send pro-terrorism rants instead of adverts and make sure the FBI is on the list of recipients.

      I mean, if you are going to cobble together a few dozen lines of VBS, why not make it do something USEFUL?

    8. Re:Constructive Uses? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone modded that one as insightful?!!

      Ouch! I agree that the post deserves modding up.

      But atleast mod it up as interesting or something else, not insightful!

      Slashdot moderators need a crash course in moderation ;-)

    9. Re:Constructive Uses? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who's the Bill Gates lover who modded this as flamebait? It's true!

    10. Re:Constructive Uses? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Viruses are constructive: they help free us from an evil monopoly.

  13. Congratulations! You have won an MP3 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic


    --StMime-00009184-000011E2-00A40143-7DA5
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    --StMime-00009184-000011E2-00A40143-7DA5--

  14. Here we go, Part 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic


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    --StMime-00009184-000011E9-00A4E6CA-B098--

  15. Why do worm writers stay free? by Hatechall · · Score: 5, Funny

    Because all the spare law enforcement officials are giving me traffic tickets.

    Rolling stop my ass.

    1. Re:Why do worm writers stay free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a means for the government to get more revenue. The police do will not receive any more funding so in order for this weed to grow, it needs to find new methods of obtaining capital. So what do they do? They bust people for minor offences in order to receive funding, they sell stolen cars at car auctions without making much effort to restore it to the rightful owner. You are responsible for being notified if your car is found if it is stolen. The police will not call you and tell you it they found it stolen unless you file a report, even if they find your freaking wallet with your address and phone number in the car.

    2. Re:Why do worm writers stay free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The police do will not receive any more funding"

      This part I left unclear. What I mean is, law enforcement is not getting enough increased funding to grow as fast as they are now.

    3. Re:Why do worm writers stay free? by JWhitlock · · Score: 5, Funny
      Because all the spare law enforcement officials are giving me traffic tickets.

      Yeah, cause that will get ya out of a ticket...

      "Hey Barney, why aren't you on the Internet stopping the real criminals! Boy, I'm glad I buy from Amazon, or else my sales tax would pay for your salary!"

    4. Re:Why do worm writers stay free? by ScoLgo · · Score: 1

      Well... think about it - which activity creates more money for law enforcement, traffic tickets or catching crackers? We already have technology that could control how traffic moves. But that would threaten the highway patrol 'industry' that's already in place. What a joke!

      --
      "Michael, I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing - and it was everything that I thought it could be."
    5. Re:Why do worm writers stay free? by Teun · · Score: 1
      "they sell stolen cars at car auctions - The police will not call you and tell you it they found it"

      Damn!! I thought Eastern Europe was slowly being cleaned up but you say it's still that bad?

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    6. Re:Why do worm writers stay free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

      Cool they are finnally catching you asshole drivers.

      I hope they nail you for your 10 over that you ALWAYs run at, your tailgaiting and reckless driving ..

      buttheads like you need to have your licenses removed.

    7. Re:Why do worm writers stay free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      priorities, priorities, priorities, ...

      there is a supposed terrorism alert in the US but federal agents are busting legal (under state law) marijuana compassion clubs, doctors and lawyers in California as well as doctor assisted suicide in Oregon (again, the will of the people of that state). yet every law enforcement agency wants their piece of the lucrative terrorism pie and claim they dont have enough manpower or money.

      In San Fran, they took officers and their dogs from Customs to ride around the BART because drug dealers might be using the train to transport drugs (I guess no one uses cars or cabs there).
      Customs dogs....

      Cyber crime is a low priority because if brings in little in terms of additional budgets to a police force. Until there is some serious cash incentives for police departments, it will remain a very low priority.

      The big payoffs for the cops are in drugs and now terrorism....

      zeke

    8. Re:Why do worm writers stay free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. I live in the United States. That is what it is like where I live. You have to file a report if your car is stolen. The police will consider it is your stolen till your report it. They wait till a period of time passes and if a car they recover from a theif is not reported stolen they will auction it for revenue. If you live in the States and have a long vacation, hope that your car is never stolen. You may never get it back, even if recovered.

    9. Re:Why do worm writers stay free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      buttheads like you need to have your licenses removed

      "Removed" from where? Maybe the word you're struggling for is "revoked"? Oh, and you spelled "finnally" (sic) wrong.

      While I'm travelling at ten over and tailgating, maybe you should be studying for your high school equivalency tests... Best of luck.

    10. Re:Why do worm writers stay free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rule of thumb: ALWAYS fight tickets.

    11. Re:Why do worm writers stay free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well maybe they should stop friggin growing then!

      we dont need more cops, we need less criminals.

  16. They aren't terrorists! by Christianfreak · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "Forget that it may be problematic to extradite the individual, or that they may be young, or claim to be doing 'research.' We need to catch them, and place them in a position whereby they are seen for what they are -- a terrorist," Cooper said. "The cost to our businesses, not to mention our way of life, is simply too high to not pursue these individuals."


    This is the sort of thing that really pisses me off. Not to say that virus writers don't do damage or even that they are not criminals but how can you compare a computer glitch to killing 3000+ people? These virus writers are kids with too much time on their hands, they aren't terrorists! The solution isn't to toss them in jail or throw away the key, the solution is to get them to do something useful with their skills and then to use products that don't have so many security problems. </rant>
    --
    The Anti-Blog
    1. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      use products that don't have so many security problems.

      The problem is often not the product, but the user. People aren't aware of what worms can do, and as such, they will value convenience over protection 99% of the time. Maybe if one these script kiddies wrote a worm that did some *real* damage, they would pay attention.

    2. Re:They aren't terrorists! by ConsigliereDea · · Score: 1

      Kids or not, people make choices about their behavior. If you aren't old enough to make a good choice about where to put your efforts, you shouldn't have the right to take away other people's effort by creating viruses. Virus writers should be pursued to the maximum extent.

    3. Re:They aren't terrorists! by metlin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well said. Just my thoughts...

      As one reader in an earlier post, people who write bad and insecure code have an equal hand in security compromises.

      Most of the worms and virii are being coded by teenagers or kids who just do not have an idea as to what they are doing.

      Think of this, why are people allowing their systems to be compromised again and again? A hack is a different thing, a worm/virus is a different thing. When there are so many different worms/virii, it cannot all be squarely blamed on the creators. The makers of the softwares should own up responsibility for writing bad code.

      Why aren't other operating systems as vulnerable as the Win* platform? It is not like there are not enough people willing to write worms in Linux or FreeBSD. It is just that it is not that easy to.

      Most of these people are kids, for God's sake!

      Writing a computer worm to show off to your friends is akin to showing off your driving skills. It is just a means of getting recognized by the peers. These people should just be taught that writing bad code is harmful. To compare it to heinous crimes and huge losses is just plain stupid.

      If it also causes harm, that is largely because of the immaturity of the technologies. If sysadmins regularly patched up their softwares, and if programmers wrote secure code, the effect of these worms will steadily decline.

      But how many admins bother to administer the latest patch? And how many software companies bother to get out good code? It is plain stupidity to blame it all one some poor nerd out there.

    4. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Quasar1999 · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      The hell they aren't....

      Think about how many people who use the internet (with Improperly set up windows machines, yes), who are as dumb as they come when it comes to computers... these people are literally terrorized when they get a virus or worm, or anything else that makes their computers harder to use then it already is...

      Yes, people are not dying... but sit down beside some not so computer savvy user and watch their reaction when they get a virus... That look on their face is usually sheer terror. Followed by panic, yells for help, etc...

      I don't know how you describe terror, but that sure meets my definition of it... (And yes, it's not as bad as what happend on 9/11, but it doesn't make this sort of, I hate to use the word, cyberterroism any less of a crime.)

      --

      ---
      Programming is like sex... Make one mistake and support it the rest of your life.
    5. Re:They aren't terrorists! by geophile · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Your posting says that virus writers aren't terrorists because what they do doesn't compare to killing 3000+ people. Then your sig compares Bill Gates to Hitler.

    6. Re:They aren't terrorists! by dillon_rinker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Terrorism doesn't necessarily imply killing people. The classical terrorist (ie, the one that exists mainly in poli-sci courses) blows up generators, water plants, radio towers, etc in an effort to destroy the public's trust in the government's ability to protect them. Someone who targets civilian infrastructure meets the threshold for being a terrorists. There's obviously a gradation; those who target large numbers of civilians are also terrorists (duh) but that doesn't mean that someone who blows up an empty building isn't a terrorist.

      Furthermore, I would argue that you don't need to have political objectives to be classified as a terrorist. If I blew up a generator station because I think it'd be cool to see, I think it would be valid to classify me as a terrorist. This gets kind of tricky, because it'd be easy to categorize an arsonist as a terrorist, or a vandal, but I digress.

      Anyway, the obvious analogy is that someone who targets information infrastructure (ie worm writers targeting email servers) is a terrorist. And don't argue that the analogy doesn't hold simply because there's no no permanent damage simply because it can be repaired. That's like arguing pulverizing every cubic inch of a building isn't permanent damage because it can be rebuilt. Don't argue that there's no real costs associated with worm attacks - do you think net admins work for free? (If so, I've got a job for you :) I'll grant that most costs are overrated.

      Counterpoint - if blowing up a building is terrorism, why not burning it down? Should arson be considered terrorism? What about insurance fraud - if I burn down my old barn for the insurance money am I a terrorist? What about vandals? There's a continuum of crimes against property, as well as crimes against people; where do we put "terrorism" on that continuum? We must be cautious in verbiage used to define "terrorism"
      in the law, lest the crime be placed further down the continuum than we want.

      Counter-counter-point - arsonists rarely burn down every building on the internet; worm-writers at the very least have in their minds the idea that they could take out every email server on the internet (basically a DOS attack) or every workstation with the targeted OS(s) by wiping their drives after re-launching.

      C

    7. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Erasmus+Darwin · · Score: 1
      "Not to say that virus writers don't do damage or even that they are not criminals but how can you compare a computer glitch to killing 3000+ people?"

      They aren't criminals! Not to say that virus writers don't do damage, but how can you compare a computer glitch to armed robbery, rape, and murder?

    8. Re:They aren't terrorists! by MindStalker · · Score: 2

      Thank you for cathing that, I rarly ever read sigs! HAHA, wish I had some mod points!

    9. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, virus writers are not terrorists, but that is what the business types would like you to believe. Never mind that my landlady committed breaking and entering recently by searching my apartment when I was out--she's a good Republican business owner, so her brand of terrorism isn't illegal. What business people want is to dupe the general public into accepting this double-standard. Get enough of the stupid masses to believe they're going to get rich by becoming business peeple and suddenly they're calling consumers and workers and even teenagers "terrorists" while THEY themselves get away with robbery. Funny how it works!

    10. Re:They aren't terrorists! by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is half the time they are not kids with skills. They just download a exploit [done for research] adn use it [for fun].

      How many of the attacks where kids are involved were actually invented and written by kids?

      Besides yes it is terroism since its mischief on the grand scale. Like it or not the internet is a mass communication medium and its a "way of life" for some people [some == growing].

      That's like taking down the entire california telephone network and claiming "I'm bored". Not only is that dangerous [no 911 calls] but its disruptive to literally millions of people.

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    11. Re:They aren't terrorists! by OverCode@work · · Score: 2

      Terrorism is using violence or other unlawful means to achieve political ends.

      Vandalism is using unlawful means just for the hell of it. Crime usually does terrify people. That doesn't mean every criminal is a terrorist. Hell, I was terrified over final exams this semester. That doesn't mean my profs are terrorists. :-)

      There's a fine line in some cases, but unless a worm writer is working for some political cause and deliberately trying to frighten people in order to change their viewpoints, then the definition of terrorist does not fit. Vandal, perhaps. Maybe even burglar in some cases. Or, more descriptively, "author of a destructive program." But not terrorist.

      There is a disturbing trend of identifying every sort of criminal as a terrorist, because that word carries a certain fear factor with it. Which sounds better: "We apprehended those delinquent web site crackers!", or "We apprehended those evil cyber-terrorists!"? Which would be more likely to get one promoted or secure more agency funding?

      Isn't that "meta-terrorism" of sorts? Hrmmm...

      -John

    12. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "Virus writers should be pursued to the maximum extent."

      To which I say: as should unethical business people, and come to think of it, as should corrupt politicians who take bribes from lobbyists and call it legal, and as should people who try to scapegoat teenagers who do what teenagers have always done: cause trouble.

    13. Re:They aren't terrorists! by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

      I fully agree with this poster.

      Perhaps these "kids" should be punished by not allowing them to use computers for say 5 years or something.

      That's like joy-riding in a car. You just "wanted to have fun" but when you run your car thru a quicky-mart and ruin some poor dudes business you can just say "I was bored!". Um nope!

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    14. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Solution: people shouldn't use Windows any more.

      They shouldn't use software that is being developed at such a pace and so recklessly that it includes hundreds of major bugs and vulnerabilities.

      Oh, but wait: capitalism is all about recklessness and rapid development. Well then what can I say except: capitalism sucks!

      If you commit to capitalism, you are committing to living with bad engineering and viruses galore. Just as you are committing to Firestone and space shuttles that explode. They are all results of the profit motive.

    15. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Well, perhaps then the solution is to put some enforcement muscle behind requiring people who develop and distribute software to stand behind their product. I.e. require anybody who releases software for others to use to carry a Ten Million Dollar liability policy or they're not allowed to distribute their software.

      Microsoft could afford that, no problem. So could Lotus and Novell.

      Guess whose software would overnight become illegal to distribute?

    16. Re:They aren't terrorists! by *ZiggyP0P* · · Score: 1

      I feel, for the most part, the way you do.

      My thing is that one of these viruses one day are REALLY going to cause a problem. Yes its a shit but what can you do -- beat into lusers that they should secure their boxen?

      What happens when one of these "cute" or even "malicious" virus hits something important -- like a realtime airport control system or even a hospitals network.

      Yes its the idiots fault, but you can at least SEE where these things can be similiar.. right?

      --
      I didn't do it. ;p
    17. Re:They aren't terrorists! by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 5, Interesting
      OK, I'll bite, Troll.

      A criminal is, by definition, someone who commits a crime. Speeding is a crime. It doesn't compare to murder in severity.

      Actions have consequences. We can (and should) blame Microsoft all day for their flippant disregard of security, but that doesn't mean these script kiddies aren't commiting serious crimes. What if a teenager broke into a factory and managed to shut it down for several hours. Would we be sitting around saying, "Oh, well, he's just a kid with too much time on his hands!" or would we be considering the fact that he cost the company thousands or millions of dollars. Well, Internet servers have reached the point where they can have as much impact on a business as the physical property and machinery.

      We need to recall that consequences (and punishment) should fit the crime, not the criminal. A relatively harmless crime needs a small punishment (or possibly even just a warning), whereas a larger crime requires a larger punishment. Otherwise you end up with anarchy.

      I don't want to see young kids pulling years of hard time for youthful indiscretions aided by bad security measures, but if there's no threat of punishment, then there will be no deterrent.

      I wish it were possible to focus a little less on fuzzy IP issues (which are important, but the government is listening too much to the money and not enough to its own law, precedent, and common sense) and a little more on the fact that the entire global computer network is being bogged down by the actions of a small number of penny-ante vandals.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    18. Re:They aren't terrorists! by e40 · · Score: 1

      You make the mistake of defining a terrorist as someone that kills 3000+ people. Before the WTC disaster, did terrorists exist? Of course! You can be a terrorist and kill NO ONE. It has to do with the act you perpetrate, not how many people you kill.

    19. Re:They aren't terrorists! by JWhitlock · · Score: 3, Interesting
      The solution isn't to toss them in jail or throw away the key, the solution is to get them to do something useful with their skills and then to use products that don't have so many security problems.

      Great idea! Take a kid who obviously has no respect for other's property, and hand him the keys to your enterprise system! By the time he's done, all the backdoors, security holes, and other problems will be patched, except for your script kiddie's backdoors. Then, shoot the script kiddie. No known security holes, and one less 1337 haxor - everyone wins!

      The one flaw in your plan is that the folks that make these worms are, for the most part, social backwards (no respect for others' property or lost time, and usually from a middle-class background, so they don't know how to really work for a living), and don't have a great set of computer skills, outside of those needed to find holes. It's a bit easier to find and exploit holes then it is to find and patch those holes, so the assholes will always have the advantage.

      Personally, I like the Kevin Mitnick treatment - put 'em in jail for a while, away from computers, then put them on probation, again without access to computers. If you are too socially retarded to play the game right, then you'll have to sit on the sidelines. Too bad these kids are privileged enough that their parents could hire lawyers, and parents are brainwashed into thinking that computers are necessary for their kid's education...

    20. Re:They aren't terrorists! by sshore · · Score: 1
      Think about how many people [use] the internet [..] these people are literally terrorized when they get a virus or worm [..]

      A friend of mine is terrified by spiders, though the spiders aren't trying to scare her. I feel that terrorism depends on intent, not effect.

      I expect that viruses are more often released with the intent to scribble "Kilroy was here" on a thousand walls than to cause fear or terror in computer users.

      There are virus writers, and there are cyberterrorists, but a virus writer is not always a cyberterrorist even if some people fear viruses.

    21. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Ixitar · · Score: 1

      Following your argument:

      We should not prosecute teenagers who go for a joyride in a borrowed car. After all, they are just showing off for their friends. The owner of the car should have had a better security system. It must be the owner's and manufacturer's fault for leaving a hole in the automobile's security system.

      People, including children, have to take responsibility for their own actions. Should Microsoft be writing better code? Yes! That, however, does not excuse the actions of these worm writers!

    22. Re:They aren't terrorists! by coltrane99 · · Score: 1
      Remember, we are suspending some of the rules of civilian justice for our war on terrorism.

      We should be extra careful to apply these exceptions to only those who warrant it.

      They would be people who commit violent acts to spread fear. If we are over-broad in who we term 'terrorists' we will start sliding down that slippery slope.

    23. Re:They aren't terrorists! by alcmena · · Score: 1

      Yes, people are not dying... but sit down beside some not so computer savvy user and watch their reaction when they get a [BSOD]... That look on their face is usually sheer terror. Followed by panic, yells for help, etc...

      Looking at it this way, I completely fail to see your point. Lots of things scare people. Having your hard drive crash a day before your final CIS project is due is pretty damn terrifying. Is the hard drive manufacture a terrorist?

      Or even on the darker side of things. Another poster brought up the hypothetical woman who was raped because she was in a short skirt. Was it her fault, no. On the other hand, was the guy a terrorist or a criminal? The woman would surely be terrified.

      I'm not saying that virus writers are not criminals. However, before 9/11 very very few people were labeled as terrorists. Now everyone wanting to push their agenda calls the other side terrorists to invoke an emotional response. Pushing agendas is not bad in and of itself, but doing so on the backs of thousands of dead people is just plain wrong.

    24. Re:They aren't terrorists! by alcmena · · Score: 5, Interesting

      An interesting conversation I had with my dad went on similar lines. Consider this:
      You are in a car accident, your fault. The other guy was wearing a seat belt and suffers minor injuries. You are charged with failure to control. You pay a minor fine and maybe do some community service.

      Now consider your same action:
      You are in a car accident, your fault. The other guy was not wearing a seat belt and dies. You are charged with vehicular homiside. You spend a few years in jail.

      Your same actions caused two different events based solely on someone else's choice. Is it truly fair that you should be punished more severely for the second result than the first? The same situation exists in your example. You wrote some stupid virus that spreads, but doesn't do much more. Clearly, you're not a saint. However, because some putz in charge of the airport control system left out the patch, your "innocent" virus spread through the airport control system, and unfortunately DOSed it offline. This brought down planes.

      Should you really be charged with terrorism when the intent was not there? Where is the responsibility for the other person who allowed this to happen?

    25. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Winged+Cat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not that I fully agree either, but one possible defense: just how many man-years has Gates' commitment to insecure OSes and ruthless trouncing of all would-be competitors cost?

    26. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Afrosheen · · Score: 1

      I mostly agree with your points. However, these kids are just exploiting defects in security measures like any other criminal. Bank robbers look for holes in security, just like muggers, rapists, etc. The mindset is what's important here. You have to be a little more clever than the average nimrod to find a security hole and exploit it. Human virii exploit security holes in the human immune system. There's virtually no difference.

      I think the punishment for these kids should be to patch holes on all the target machines for FREE. If patching those holes amounts to converting a shop's mail servers to linux, so be it. The point here is that if someone has the knowledge, part of their punishment should be exposing that knowledge and channeling it into good places where it's useful rather than destructive. If Kevin was made a security expert and hired by a Large Corporation, rather than banned from ever using a computer the rest of his life, he'd be serving his sentence in a very positive way. Society would reap the benefits of his punishment. Just like convicts making license plates...

    27. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you keep referring to it as a 'glitch'? I define glitch as unintentional.

      point 2
      If i empty out a bank and there is no one around, i legally haven't committed armed robbery, and no direct physical pain was caused. The money was probably insured as well. Does this make me not a criminal?

      Okay, lets be completely unreasonable.
      If i forget my bulletproof vest and get shot, is it my fault for not taking the proper precautions?

    28. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and parents are brainwashed into thinking that computers are necessary for their kid's education...

      this is so true it hurts. I'd probably have an easier time now finding a job with a liberal arts degree than my MIS degree.

    29. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "When there are so many different worms/virii, it cannot all be squarely blamed on the creators. "

      Sure it can and should.
      Their quilt or lack of thereof has nothing to do with inability of some admins to properly run their systems.

    30. Re:They aren't terrorists! by overunderunderdone · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      This is the sort of thing that really pisses me off. Not to say that virus writers don't do damage or even that they are not criminals but how can you compare a computer glitch to killing 3000+ people?

      I totally agree, the terms are important. A terrorist is someone who commits acts designed to paralyse and undermine the society through fear. Obviously a virus or worm writer does NOT really fit that description. They are saboteurs a different but in some cases almost as serious crime.

      The more common computer sabotage commited by individuals with various motivations are still significant crimes. Some people compare it to the relatively minor crimes of grafitti or willful destruction of property - but the scale of it can be so much larger and more widespread as to make it different in kind from, and more serious than most such crimes in the physical world.

      But sabotage has also always been a technique of warfare, particularly assymetrical warfare. We will see computer sabotage used by terrorist organizations. In a state of war (declared or not) and in support of a declared enemy a saboteur in our borders or in the borders of our allies would be a war criminal - either an unlawful belligerant (if he is not a citizen) or a traitor (if he is a citizen.) In either case such a crime of sabotage is still potentially a capital offense - it doesn't matter if you as an enemy agent disrupt communications by blowing up the telephone exchange or by writing a virus, you are legally in a world of hurt. Yhe possibilty of commiting acts of sabotage through the internet while physically not in the targetted country is an interesting possiblity. If war is declared it would not be a war crime but a perfectly legitimage act of war, an attack on an enemies communications.

      Unfortunately "terrorist" will probably be applyed to people commiting such acts of sabotage. People will use the term "terrorist" loosely to mean most forms of assymetrical warfare since "assymetrical warrior" seems unlikely to catch on. For instance a conventional act of sabotage analogous to a successful virus attack (blowing up a telephone exchange for instance) would probably be popularly termed a "terrorist attack" even if no one is killed and the goal was disruption of communictions rather than psychological damage.

    31. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Please tell us you are joking. Tens of millions of people died in WW2, millons died in Germany alone. Although it is an oversimplification to say that Hitler, single handedly, is THE criminal, he sure had a great role in all this.

      OTOH Gates is a rich geek. Neither Gates, nor MS AFAIK did kill a single man, let alone tens of millions. I'm pretty sure a month in Auschwitz lost more man years than those lost to MS insecurity problems.

    32. Re:They aren't terrorists! by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 2
      Good point! I wish it were possible to make the punishment actually be something positive for society (or the convict himself) in more cases. However, the most important aspect of punishment has to be its deterrence effect. If we "punish" script kiddies by giving them jobs (even your "unpaid" example), we are going to get more script kiddies.

      I think your point is very good and thoughtful, but it really goes into the whole question of punishment vs. rehabilitation and whether they can coincide or if one can cause the other. I hope and think that will be a question that will be answered much better in the 21st century than in the 20th, but it's not happening yet.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    33. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      There's a continuum of crimes against property, as well as crimes against people; where do we put "terrorism" on that continuum? We must be cautious in verbiage used to define "terrorism" in the law, lest the crime be placed further down the continuum than we want.

      Well, are you from the middle east? Did you burn down your business for the insurance money? You might be a terrorist. Do you live in a Montana cave? Did you grafiti a government building? You may be a terrorist.

      I actually agree that the overuse of any term (terrorist in this case) and extending it to situations not normally covered by it, will dilute its meaning. It becomes common. Loses its force. If every other crime is terrorism, terrorism isn't so bad anymore. Look what happened to Holocaust and any argument involving WWII. It's been compared to so many things, it's just another concept thrown about for intellectual masturbation. It used to be a powerful image, and reduce grown up people to tears by its very utterance. Now we can laugh at it. Similarly, other crimes that used to be horrible and you'd be exiled should you commit one, are now just statistics, oh well, these things happen, right?

    34. Re:They aren't terrorists! by tigheig · · Score: 1

      There are a lot of systems used by hospitals, police, ambulances, and other emergency services that depend on internet connectivity. I spent a lot of time when Code Red first hit hard keeping some of these systems on-line as their interfaces were clogged with all that extraneous nonsense. Even the systems that couldn't be infected by Code Red were bogged down.

      It's only a matter of time until there are deaths as a result of a worm/virus/trojan infecting or DOSing critical systems. Can we call the individual that wrote the malware a terrorist then?

    35. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Afrosheen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You must be magical because you keep getting mod points and I don't :( Oh well, blow me moderators.

      Your point regarding giving skript kiddies jobs creating more skript kiddies isn't very realistic. It's a job, yes, but it's not a job they'd be proud to have. No convicts commit a crime hoping to be making license plates, there's just no incentive. But rather than a pointless punishment (i.e. imprisonment), make it productive. If you do a little research, you'll find that alot of IT security companies have real hackers on board. It makes perfect sense. Alot of insurance companies hire ex-burglars, to see how easy it was to break into someone's home/business. Security is always a 2 way street. It's the responsibility of both the individual and the company/service that provides them with security. Think if you get a 10 million dollar home and have gold bricks lying around in each room. A burglar discovers this from outside. Also you have a million dollar, state-of-the-art security system, but you don't arm it each time you leave the house. Who is at fault when you come home and all your gold bricks are gone?

    36. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your analogy doesn't make the "crime" seem any more harmful, certainly not a terrorist act. This is just simply rediculous that such a minor crime, which is automatically made much worse by the dipshits who don't understand technology and assume the worst, is punishable like a terrorist attack. How can you EVEN compare it to a crime that involves massive loss of life? This just sickens me...

    37. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >If Kevin was made a security expert and hired by a Large Corporation, rather than banned from ever using a computer the rest of his life, he'd be serving his sentence in a very positive way. Society would reap the benefits of his punishment. Just like convicts making license plates...

      NO! You don't make someone who breaks into a bank the head of security for a large bank, why would you do the same for someone who breaks into a computer?

      Make 'em do something useful, I agree. We've got plenty of trash that needs picking up, let 'em get at. That would be a real benefit to all of society.

      As for making license plates, when did you last look for a job doing that?

    38. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Christianfreak · · Score: 2

      Well in defense of my sig, its meant to be humorous and ironic. Besides war criminals and terrorists are too different things.

      --
      The Anti-Blog
    39. Re:They aren't terrorists! by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No it can't. No it shouldn't.

      Pervasively defective applications and system software, coupled with a highly predatory monopolist work to ensure that most naive end users are unecessarily vulnerable to security exploits.

      If the UCC were being effectively applied to Microsoft, these worm attacks would cease as Microsoft would find the motivation to re-engineer their products.

      These are not some highly crafted bits of machine language. By old virus standards, they are incredibly crude. Yet they continue to cause havoc.

      This is primarily due to security being an afterthought at the company that controls most consumer software.

      This element of the problem simply can't be ignored so that you people can play a Puritan game of "crime and punishment".

      These nuisance worm writers are actually doing us a BIG favor at this point. These exploits will eventually escalate to the point of being genuinely harmful. We have time now to get ready for this because of these "teenage joyriders".

      They are the flu and they are telling us we should mind our hygeine.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    40. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hitler and Bill have killed the exact same amount of people: 0 (let's forget the suicide)
      Yet both are marketing geniuses.
      I think that sig is fair.

    41. Re:They aren't terrorists! by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Regarding the factory:

      If some vandal did manage to shut one down, there would infact be someone responsible for gross negligence in that situation.

      Finding someone to punish doesn't absolve anyone else of their contributory negligence.

      The "kid" is responsible for trespassing. Lost production time is ultimately the responsibility of whomever runs the factory.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    42. Re:They aren't terrorists! by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Making such a person a Castilan of a bank wouldn't be a very efficient use of those talents anyways. Someone like that should be an auditor or troubleshooter.

      Forcing them to pickup trash will just encourage them to go underground and become really destructive.

      Pissing off an intellegent criminal really isn't a good idea. Increasing the average intellegence of the criminal element will only make law enforcement more difficult.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    43. Re:They aren't terrorists! by lazy_greenhouse_gas · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Nice signature. Very interesting.

    44. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Xcruciate · · Score: 1

      I think the solution is to whoop their asses! Goddamn little punks that have no respect for anything deserve to have their asses kicked from here to Sunday.

      --
      It's like "looking busy" at your employment - it's actually easier to do real work than to fake it. - bmo
    45. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Erasmus+Darwin · · Score: 2
      "OK, I'll bite, Troll."

      Ooh. Name-calling.

      Go back and look at my post. Now look at what it was in response to. I no more believe that script kiddies aren't criminals than Swift believed that people should eat Irish babies. It's some pretty blatant (or so I believed) satire directed at the absurdity of the previous poster's argument where he/she defines terrorism strictly in terms of bodycount. That's why I quoted exactly what I was referring to.

      Futhermore, I would think something as absurd as saying script kiddies aren't criminals would raise people's red flags, helping them identify the intent. You obviously caught on to the absurdity of it, but you missed the parody part which shifts it from trolling to satire.

    46. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Winged+Cat · · Score: 1

      I didn't say I agreed. Just trying to point out what the sig's author might have been thinking.

    47. Re:They aren't terrorists! by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 2

      Sorry for missing your point. I got the impression you were trolling on purpose. I shouldn't assume posters are being dense, even though it's so often true here. ;-)

      I guess I'm guilty of sarcasm profiling.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    48. Re:They aren't terrorists! by cburley · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      The one flaw in your plan is that the folks that make these worms[...]don't have a great set of computer skills, outside of those needed to find holes. It's a bit easier to find and exploit holes then it is to find and patch those holes, so the assholes will always have the advantage.

      Your logic has too many holes.

      Or perhaps you can explain how a particular kind of hole will always have an advantage due to people who need to find and exploit holes in general?

      Maybe it's just a matter of convincing them that they, or at least each other, are instances of a kind of hole, thus encouraging them to find and exploit each other?

      ;-)

      --
      Practice random senselessness and act kind of beautiful.
    49. Re:They aren't terrorists! by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You must be magical because you keep getting mod points and I don't :(

      Think of it this way. I impress the typical /. reader. You decide if that's good or bad. A karma cap and 50 cents'll get you a cup of coffee.

      I understand that a lot of IT security companies have hired ex-(h)|(cr)ackers and that's fine. But if getting caught means a good prospect for getting a job in computer security, then rooting someone's box becomes less of a crime and more of a resume builder. You see, there's a significant difference between making license plates, and working in high-tech security. I'm not saying it still couldn't be a deterrent, since many people won't want to deal with an ex-criminal, but people who are stupid enough to make things like nimda, might see it as a way to get ahead.

      There are other kinds of useful community service that could be used, even jobs that take advantage of computer skills. I recall a friend got busted for some minor violation in college in the early 80's and ended up setting up a database for a local church as his community service.

      I agree that alternatives to "pointless punishment" should be found, because there is an incredible waste of human resource when someone is sitting around sulking in striped sunlight for years on end. But we have to remember that punishment for crimes needs to be something that people want to avoid, not some kind of jobs program for troubled youths. That should happen before the legal system comes into play. We have to remember our first priority is trying to keep people from committing the crimes in the first place, even if we do still want to help them once they do.

      That's all I'm trying to say.

      Rick

      p.s.

      Who is at fault when you come home and all your gold bricks are gone?

      The thief. You might be at fault for being careless or incompetent (and if it were your job to secure the gold, that's another issue), but the thief is still guilty of far worse. Maybe you shouldn't complain if your house is burglarized, but there is still a significant difference in the degree of moral fault here.

      If I walk out and leave my gold bricks lying around unprotected, that in no way mitigates the degree of guilt of anyone who might happen to steal them.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    50. Re:They aren't terrorists! by liquidsin · · Score: 1

      The solution isn't to toss them in jail or throw away the key, the solution is to get them to do something useful with their skills and then to use products that don't have so many security problems

      Point 1: There are many new procedures in place now to help prevent plane hijackings and such. If you went to an airport whose security policy was "Sure, we *could* use these new security measures, but we're not gonna" would you get on one of their planes?

      Point 2: 99.9% of worms running rampant are taking advantage of old, well known, patchable security holes. If your IT dept. tells you they *could* fix the problem, but they don't, what would you do?

      So, in the first scenario, how quick would we all be to jump on the airport for being so lax in their security measures? Why isn't more attention drawn to the fact that sircam, code red, nimda, and everything else bogging down our servers is perfectly easy to fix?

      --
      do not read this line twice.
    51. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Afrosheen · · Score: 1

      I agree with you wholeheartedly about the gold bricks, but the insurance company will not cover 100% of their value due to your negligence because you didn't arm the alarm. They'll find you at partial fault. That was the point I was making. Karma points, yeah!

    52. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gates' business practices have cost thousands their jobs and livelyhood and that has resulted in at least a few suicides. So its not direct but actions done by one man has lead to the deaths of others.

    53. Re:They aren't terrorists! by thogard · · Score: 1

      Most of the worms and virii are being coded by teenagers or kids who just do not have an idea as to what they are doing.
      Most rocks dropped off highway bridges are done by teenagers or kids who just do not have an idea as to what they are doing but we throw them in jail for a long time when they damage property (or kill someone)

    54. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah look at the Holocaust. Those cock sucking westerners. You know how many Russians died fighting in that war against half the Germany army? Nearly 20 million. Britain, the United States, Australia, Canada and the remants of the Polish and French army fought the other half. Where is Russia in the American high school textbooks on WWII we did more work in that war than America? You know how many Poles died? How many Yugoslavians? It is despicable this event is given a Jewish name. Far more Slavs died in this war, far more Chinese died at the hands of Japan than Jews. It is wonderful that the Jews were able to lobby Western Europe and the United States into making sure that WWII will be known in these countries as the slaughter of the Jews first and foremost. The Germans hated us Slavs just as much as Jews and killed much more of us. What do we get, no recognition in the West for our blood.

    55. Re:They aren't terrorists! by mochan_s · · Score: 1

      We compare these worm-writers to terrorists now. After 50 years, when Micrsoft is no longer the biggest company, we will probably compare them to freedom fighters who freed the world from Microsoft's rule. :)

    56. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It has been proved time and again on Slashdot itself that the lock-key analogy for network security does not work out.

      So if you want to get your point across, refrain from using such bland analogies, or resort to abuse ;-)

    57. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Mustang+Matt · · Score: 2

      >>A criminal is, by definition, someone who commits a crime.

      Actually, isn't a criminal someone who is tried and convicted of committing a crime?

      A whole lot of people commit crimes without being caught. Technically they aren't criminals are they?

      --
      The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
    58. Re:They aren't terrorists! by zatz · · Score: 1

      hand him the keys to your enterprise system

      This is hardly what was being suggested. Only that a rehabilitative approach is more sensible than prison time, for nonviolent juvenile vandals.

      It's a bit easier to find and exploit holes then it is to find and patch those holes

      Obviously the words of someone who has never written an exploit in his life. Or even audited source code for holes.

      Most security problems, especially your average buffer overflow, take just a few keystrokes to patch once located (especially given drop-in replacements like vsnprintf() et al). Only an architectural security problem could require more effort to patch than to exploit. (I suppose one could argue that every buffer overflow or unneeded service open to the world is really an instance of a much larger architectural problem, in the sense of c language tools or design philosophy.)

      Whether your average worm writer has anything to do with finding the holes they use or constructing working exploits for them is another question.

      Personally, I like the Kevin Mitnick treatment

      I'm sure you would *love* the "Mitnick treatment" when they are *your* constitutional rights being brushed aside.

      --

      Java: the COBOL of the new millenium.
    59. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a rather silly stand to take because the law your proposing has a few logic errors that seem to purposly target open source development:

      Were I to sugest a simmilar law I'd go for- Any purchased program in it's default state must be free of and/or make the client aware of any such obvious security flaws else the distributer can be found liabal in the explotation of cet flaws.

      Now this would make Outlook Express immune to any legal action since it's 'free', but then again- everyone knows that outlook express has obvious secrity flaws. It would also make Linux based systems almost completely free from the law, and it would place the burdon of making sure it's safe onto the distibutor of that system.

      Note however that the program would only have to COME safe- that dosen't mean it won't have access to unsafe options, just that your average 'plug'n'play'/office user won't turn those options on. Which would make a whole bunch of e-mail programs into text only default modes that can't download attachments: this is a good thing in my opinion. It is my experence that office e-mail usually dose not consist of anything more then pure text, but is often prettied up for no apparant reason- or attachments are made, just because: taking away these options would not only reduce interoffice e-mail bandwidth consumption, but would also prevent incomming virii that did not use some near-miraculus codeing.

    60. Re:They aren't terrorists! by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 2

      That's a distinction that can be made. However, I was not making it.

      In the interests of precision in language, I would describe a convicted criminal as a "convicted criminal" whereas a non-convicted murderer, cyberterrorist, or chronic speeder is just a "criminal". And yes, I realize that 99.9% of the population technically qualifies as a criminal under that definition. However, it is conventional to refer only to more serious infractions of the law as "crimes".

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    61. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      alcmena asks two questions:

      1. "Should you really be charged when the intent ... was not there?"

      2. "Where is the responsibility for the other person who allowed this to happen?"

      1.
      I think that the key difference between your car accident scenarios and your virus creation scenarios is that in the car, they were accidents.

      If you are in a car and intentionally hit someone else, it will be taken seriously, even if they manage to escape with minor injuries. It's a heck of a lot different from being in an "at fault" accident, where there was no intent to hit anyone.

      Maybe there are a lot of people releasing worms and virii, specifically designed and coded to spread as wide and fast as possible, who have no intent that these things will spread and clog mail systems, etc. but somehow I doubt it. I think that the intent to cause damage is there.

      It's possible that while these people mean to cause damage, they don't mean to cause that much damage. But if you assault someone intending only to mess them up a little and you kill them, you are up for a murder charge, even if the intent was to wound and not kill. Intentional crime is an "in for a penny, in for a pound" sort of thing. Once you start committing a crime, you are held responsible for all that goes wrong as a result of your criminal actions.

      2.
      I suspect that if "some putz in charge of the airport control system left out the patch" and the whole system went down, causing planes to crash, that putz would be looking for a new job. That putz might also be open to a civil suit from the survivors/families for "contributory negligence" or some such. That's the extent of his responsibility and legitimately so.

      It's like the example in another response on this thread. If I leave my car unlocked, I shouldn't be the one charged with theft when it is stolen.

      Respectfully,
      David Tallan

    62. Re:They aren't terrorists! by alcmena · · Score: 2

      You liken the virus writing to stealing a car. My example was closer to joy riding. The person took his parent's car, went out with it, and got in an accident.

      Think of this. A person writes a pretty harmless virus and only passes it to his/her ex-SO. The ex-SO triggers something that causes the virus to spread in massive numbers. Just like the joy rider, this person meant no real harm, and had no idea of what damage his/her act would cause.

      No one in thier right mind would label the joy rider as a terrorist. Why should the digital equivilant be?

      Mind you, I'm not saying that all virus writers are innocent. Many of them are criminals. My point is only that America has been quick to label anyone and everyone who is "disagreeable" as a terrorist, without even considering why.

    63. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      a few points, ignoramus:

      It's "31337", not 1337. Get it right.
      Safecrackers have designed some of the most secure vaults known.
      ISS is full of ex-hackers (hi b_!) and they are a very successful company, with many Fortune 500 clients.
      Middle-class kids not knowing the value of work? No, that honor goes to rich kids with trust funds. $4,000 per month until age 30 and you won't be working at a pizza joint to make ends meet.
      It is, in fact, astoundingly easy to patch holes in insecure software. Finding them and arranging a suitable exploit that works on more than one platform can be irritatingly time-consuming.
      Mitnick got royally screwed by his judge. So did Minor Threat, who wasn't even convicted of a computer-related crime. Is a convicted politican barred from seeking office after release? Does a convicted prostitute get welded into a chastity belt?

    64. Re:They aren't terrorists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I don't liken the virus to stealing a car. I liken it to hitting someone with a car on purpose rather than getting into an "at fault" accident.

      Virii that spread all over the net (and we've seen a bunch recently) are built and designed to propogate. They have functions like "send yourself to everyone in the address book". Those functions don't get into the code by accident. If you write a virus with that kind of function and pass it to your SO, are you really not intending it to spread?

      I'm not saying that it is the action of a terrorist (and have not been saying so). I'm saying it is an action with criminal intent. And one of the things about actions with criminal intent is that the law holds you responsible for all of the disastrous unforseen consequences of your criminal action.

      Respectfully,
      David Tallan

    65. Re:They aren't terrorists! by JWhitlock · · Score: 1
      Your logic has too many holes.

      Or perhaps you can explain how a particular kind of hole will always have an advantage due to people who need to find and exploit holes in general? I thought your moderation was unfair, since you brought up a valid criticism (if I understand it correctly). Of course, if you were just pointing out that I used the word "hole" too often, well, sorry for not sending it by my editor.

      Yes, it's hard work to find a security hole in the first place. Yes, it's a skill to do that. Yes, the people that are good at finding these holes will probably be good at securing their own machines/code.

      Once a hole is found and exploited however, the information takes on a life of its own. There are only a few that kind find these holes, but there are more that, once the hole is found, can write an exploit routine. There are even more who can take that routine and make a user-friendly interface for it, or design a script to try out the exploit on many machines. There are even more who wouldn't know the first thing about finding holes, writing exploits, or even making a good script, but who can download and run these things. These days, it takes about a month or two for an exploit to go from discovery to script-kiddie tool.

      Once a programmer knows about an exploit, it is fairly easy to patch the hole, unless it takes a redesign. Usually, you can quickly change the program and issue a patch. A good company can get the patch out before the exploit reaches the script-kiddie stage.

      But can the administrator patch it soon enough? Many Microsoft bugs are quickly patched, but few users go to Microsoft Update to get the patches. When the administrator want to do it for them, they find out that there is no one patch, but a patch for each system configuration. You can't download one patch and install it over the network. You can't even burn it to a CD and walk to each computer. You have to go to each computer, load up the web page for Microsoft Update, select the patch, and start the download. After a few minutes, you then click a box to restart the computer. Multiply that by the number of machines, and you are working a lot of unpaid overtime.

      So administrators put it off. Maybe they hope the firewall will block things, or they send out an email telling employees to do the update themselves, or they wait for the weekend after next. And then, there's the home users who, again, never were told how to update their boxes.

      So, the script kiddie has the advantage - a known hole, with a known patch, and millions of computers where the patch hasn't been installed yet. It's even easier if you know a good block of addresses so you can try all of them - @Home and Roadrunner networks are especially ripe for Windows exploits, or it seems so, looking at my firewall logs.

      As for hackers eliminating each other - they usually have their own boxes secured, because they try out exploits on each other first.

    66. Re:They aren't terrorists! by JWhitlock · · Score: 1
      Sorry, didn't look at the computer over the weekend. Thanks for the (non-anon) response.

      Let me clarify - I think it is valid and difficult work to find brand new theoretical exploits. It can be even harder to turn a theoretical exploit into an actual exploit. It's a little easier to take a known exploit (buffer-overflow attacks), and try to find the same exploit in some other code. It's easier to take a known, coded exploit, and convert it to do something you want. It's easy to take a coded exploit, and put a user-friendly front-end on it, and even easier to download such a package, and set it up to scan all the @Home domain for exploitable machines. Once an exploit goes from theory to tool, it's easy to use.

      Sure, by that point, the hole is easy to patch, too - even a non-related change may break a byte-level exploit. The problem is, the whole computing world is slow to patch, and you can't lay all the blame on bad administrators. As you know, most secure systems are secure because they were designed that way from the start, and the computing world was not designed for security. The computing world has its good and bad administrators, but it also has its un-administered networks, its user-administrated networks, and its home-PC users who were never told how to update the software.

      So we have a world with known exploits, and an abundance of machines ready to be exploited. Sure, you can have the most secure machine around, but it won't help when the unsecured ones are used in a DDOS attack against you. You may be security conscience, but it doesn't help when the new hire gives passwords over the phone to hacker using social engineering, or when a co-worker uses the same password for his remote access and for the web-site that passes passwords in plain text. Businesses require people, and as long as you have people and machines, there are security weaknesses in your network.

      That's what I mean by saying its easier to find and exploit a hole (especially if someone else does the finding), then it is to patch those holes (especially if you consider the entire network, not just the boxes you have direct control over). Its hard work for a lion to catch a gazelle, but it doesn't have to get the fastest, just the slowest.

      I'm sure you would *love* the "Mitnick treatment" when they are *your* constitutional rights being brushed aside

      I'm a big fan of the Constitution too. I support all those amendments, from the ones I like (freedom of speech, freedom of religion, right to speedy trial) to the ones I don't like as much (right to bear arms, no cruel and unusual punishment). They do a great job of upholding my more general right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness/property". That's also why I play within the rules - follow the law when I think it's right, follow the law but protest it when I think it's wrong. I also admire those who take the civil disobedience route, publicly breaking laws they think are wrong. I can't do that right now, because I can't suffer the consequences. I try to support those that can, by giving to the EFF and keeping up on the issues.

      I don't see Kevin Mitnick as trying to exercise civil disobedience. I see an individual who got very good at breaking into computer systems, and got to the point where he couldn't stop himself. When he is completely free in a year and a month, if no one pays him to break into systems for a living, then there is a good chance he will go back to breaking into them as a hobby. Most of the world sees this as wrong. When he gets punished, there is not a general outcry, even among the computing community, that his punishment is particularly harsh. Even though hackers say that the computer world runs under different property laws then the rest of the world, the rest of the world has responded with a resounding "no, we'll treat them the same". This isn't a great starting point for civil disobedience.

      In any case, yeah, its painful to see the judicial and legal system interact with the computer world. It's also pretty clear how to stay on the right side in the judicial world: don't break into other's property, and don't make people want to go tell mommy you've been bad.

      I wish there was a way to make worm writers and exploit users realize the repercussions of what they are doing, but they often are so convinced of their superiority that they don't listen to what everyone is telling them. Until (and if) they grow up, I don't mind taking away their tools/toys, or at least make it harder for them to use them.

      Wow - that's a lot of words for a Monday...

    67. Re:They aren't terrorists! by cburley · · Score: 1
      Yes, I was just riffing on the excess of the wordlet "hole" in your post.

      But it was worth it if that's why you wrote your reply -- a clear explanation of several aspects of practical security on public computing networks.

      Have a Happy New Year!

      (And, yes, the moderation was unfair -- apparently some moderators prefer to impose their notion of what constitutes humor on the /. community by not merely leaving "unfunny" jokes based on the topic unmoderated, but by moderating them "offtopic".)

      --
      Practice random senselessness and act kind of beautiful.
  17. No money in catching them. by saint10 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A multi-billion dollar industry was created by writers of malware; anti-virus, tripwire, IDSes. Why would any large security company want malware authors to be caught?

    1. Re:No money in catching them. by ackthpt · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Ages ago, there was something of a scandal in the news when a prominent anti-virus company CEO warned of a doomsday of a new virus or worm making the rounds. Of course, sheep bought the software, but nothing much materialized and the CEO resigned in disgrace after being accused of trying to create a market by scaring people, some people went so far as to suggest the particular company was actually the orgin of virii and worms. Wish I could remember who that was, maybe this is article alludes to it (the Michelangelo virus)

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    2. Re:No money in catching them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your're right, but missing the point. It is not the job of security companies to catch malware authors. Let the security folks write protective software, and let the police catch worm writers. I do not think these kids are terrorists, but they are still very dangerous. I say give them serious public work or jail time if necessary. My Sysop says shoot 'em all.

    3. Re:No money in catching them. by mattm76 · · Score: 1

      A multi-billion dollar industry was created by enemies of the US... What rational weapons manufacturer would want to get rid of them? Saddam will be around until there's some other dictator to fill his spot. That's why World Peace is a joke just as much as flawless code is. The same goes for the gov't -- why would any bureaucrat want to acheive an optimal level of spending? In these cases it's always going to be a 70% solution for the simple reason that these people want to be important tomorrow and will take extra precautions to guarantee that (i.e. job security). The point is that evil and stupidity are alive and well in this world and they'll be around for a long time, but at the very least, you can steer your children away from them (or use birth control if you're incapable of that). Fight the power!

    4. Re:No money in catching them. by Ian+Peon · · Score: 1
      Well, that's an interesting article, but I take exception to it.

      I ran a BBS in 1992, I had 2 DOS based PCs at my house, and I occasionally helped out with 2 more computers at a small office near where I lived. I didn't do any file sharing on my BBS, but I downloaded "scan" anyway and discovered that Michelangelo was on both my PCs as well as most of my floppies. I managed to clean it before I noticed any impact, but neglected to check the ones at the office (I didn't share floppies). They got hit anyway - wiped out both machines' hard drives. I spent that night rebuilding them, kicking myself all the while.

      Of my friends who had their own PCs, most of them detected and removed Michelangelo. One friend re-infected his machine a few months later, and triggered the virus one day while playing with his clock settings.

      While I won't say that my small sampling constituted "millions of computers", but it was NOT zero:

      What kind of havoc did Michelangelo wreak on 6 March 1998? Antivirus experts chimed in with the number of catastrophes their companies confirmed:
      Wolfgang Stiller: "zero" incidents confirmed by Stiller Research
      Graham Cluley: "a big fat zero" incidents confirmed by Dr. Solomon's Software ("as expected")
      David M. Chess: "I believe zero" incidents confirmed by IBM ("I wouldn't be surprised if it stayed zero")
      Chenji "Jimmy" Kuo: "zero" incidents confirmed by Network Associates ("and I would be surprised to see even one")
      Alex Haddox: "two" incidents confirmed at Symantec
      --
      Never never never smoke crack before geometry class!
  18. *gulp* by hiryuu · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "We need to catch them, and place them in a position whereby they are seen for what they are -- a terrorist," Cooper said. "The cost to our businesses, not to mention our way of life, is simply too high to not pursue these individuals."

    Terrorists? Virus writers are terrorists? Keep it up, boys, and the word will lose all meaning and everyone will be desensitized to what it really means. Sheesh.

    Obviously the legal system doesn't see them as such, yet, from the details of the article.

    --
    Karma: Excellent, but still won't get you laid.
    1. Re:*gulp* by Silver222 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Everyone is a terroist now. The meaning of the word has been so diluted because everyone with an agenda to push labels people they don't like as a terrorists.


      Pretty soon you won't be able to sneeze in a subway car without someone accusing you of biological warfare.

      --
      "It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times." Bill Hicks
    2. Re:*gulp* by Ravagin · · Score: 2

      What's scarier than that is legislation designed to target and punish terrorists (or "suspected terrorists" - remember, kids, a trial is for deciding punishment, not guilt!). The more people who get classified as terrorists, the more people potentially deprived of civil liberties.

      Gah.

      --

      Karma: T-rexcellent.

    3. Re:*gulp* by jrbrtsn · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I think it would be more appropriate to classify virus writers as "vandals", and treat them as such legally.

    4. Re:*gulp* by bigwig10001 · · Score: 1

      From Tom Tomorrow's This Modern World:

      "Feminazis" would like women to have the same opportunities in life as men.

      "Smoking Nazis" would rather breathe clean air than secondhand cigarette smoke.

      The actual Nazis systematically slaughtered (12) million innocent men women and children.

      http://www.salon.com/sept97/comics/comics1970929 .h tml

    5. Re:*gulp* by JWhitlock · · Score: 2
      I think it would be more appropriate to classify virus writers as "vandals", and treat them as such legally.

      It's a strange sort of vandalism, though.

      If I spraypaint my sign on a business, then that business has to spend extra money to repaint, and maybe buy some security lights or hire a security guard, or risk loosing customers due to customer bad impressions.

      If I write a Windows worm that results in email systems all over the world shutting down and horrible network congestion, then almost everyone that does web work loses a few minutes. Even if you run Linux and Mozilla, your Slashdot load time will be that much slower, due to all the other packets running around the backbones, and you'll get that much less work done.

      Businesses will lose money, but very little of it will be identifiable. The identifiable stuff - network guys spending their weekends patch Winboxen - is misleading as well, since many of these guys are salaried. In the end, it turns up as a dip in productivity, vaguely measurable, possibly showing up in end-of-year profit statements, but hard to prove.

      It does impact the bottom line in subtle ways, though. Reduced profits lead to reduced taxes, and the government has a little less money to spend.

      So, yeah, call it vandalism, possibly bordering on property damage, but also add "defrauding the government" or some such charge. Those IRS bastards know how to squeeze money out of folks that owe them money.

    6. Re:*gulp* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt you know what the word means either.

    7. Re:*gulp* by Winged+Cat · · Score: 2

      The disconnect, as I see it, is between what these worms have the perceived potential to do and what they actually do. Which is, actually, the case with much potential terrorist acts.

      Two popular (among gov't theorists) scenarios are a terrorist poisoning a reservoir, or piloting a cropduster loaded with biological agents over a city. Yet neither of those seems to have yet happened. Likewise, if nukes are so "easy" to obtain on the black market, why haven't we seen any suicide bombers with them yet?

      Now, consider a worm designed to, say, sniff out the settings (including passwords) needed to gain root-level remote access to a large, typically insecure company's network. Perception: the hacker could, say, add himself to the company's payroll, with money going to a Caribbean or Swiss bank account, or just transfer much of the company's liquid assets to same, and that's just the easy stuff (not counting corporate espionage or, for companies with a lot of intellectual property, copying the IP - say, stealing the Windows source code with intent to post to the world). Reality: these programs almost never go beyond mere defacement or disablement of the systems, and spreading themselves; deeper hacking would require personal involvement and actual malice that the script kiddies usually lack (for example: even if one had complete access to Microsoft's networks, it would take ages to gather and document for public release even a mere majority of the Windows source code).

    8. Re:*gulp* by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      These quips suffer from the same problem that they are trying to accuse the original "aphorists" of. They oversimplify things while ignoring other key critical details.

      Now while Professor MacKinnon would likely not create any death camps if she came into some authority, she is as much of a control freak as any fascist. This and the alternate orthodoxy that tends to creep out of feminist organizations is likely why the term "feminazi" evolved.

      The Nazi's did more than just kill slavs and jews. It was not their defining characteristic but more a consequence of their core ideology and indoctrination practices.

      Other forms of intolerant orthodoxy can become as dangerous. The dangers of such should not be ignored merely because a certain group of zealots hasn't had the chance to abuse authority yet.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    9. Re:*gulp* by cburley · · Score: 1
      These quips suffer from the same problem that they are trying to accuse the original "aphorists" of. They oversimplify things while ignoring other key critical details.

      That's generous -- more precisely, they cover evil intent with the attractive wallpaper of geniality.

      I'm well-aware of how the words "feminazi" and "smoking nazi" are used, and you're right (in the rest of your post) -- they are far more precise in identifying people with certain mindsets than implied by handwaving like "they just want to breathe clean air".

      I used to make it quite clear that I preferred non-smoking areas in restaurants, and used to object when smokers would light up in them regardless. That didn't make me a "smoking Nazi", since I was just defending my personal privilege to breathe cleaner air, as provided for by rules advertised by the local establishment.

      A real "smoking Nazi" is someone who goes much further -- who resents the fact that a bar or restaurant has smoking patrons so much, regardless of the fact that he never intends to visit it himself, that he seeks to deny them (and the establishment's owner) the right to decide for themselves whether and how smoking will be permitted.

      Personally, I'd prefer words like "Nazi" be granted freedom from even the whiff of abuse, but, given how history has, so far, treated Nazism as the most foul of systems while rewarding Communism -- which has murdered far more innocents -- with laurel wreaths, I can see why people trying to make a point about the pervasive tyrannical mindset don't worry about actually diluting the term itself.

      And, just as I gave up worrying about smoker's freedoms, thanks to their disdain for the rights of their neighbors to breathe fresh air in designated non-smoking areas, and thus perhaps helped let the "Smoking Nazis" win, I don't see any need to defend the term "nazi" against misuse by those who are, generally, using that term in defense of my freedoms, even if I don't ever plan to exercise some of them myself.

      (I should say I've had the pleasure of knowing "polite" smokers, including an officemate who would smoke in the hallway to avoid inconveniencing me! Too bad they formed such a tiny minority of smokers that their own freedoms were overwhelmed within some 20 years.)

      --
      Practice random senselessness and act kind of beautiful.
  19. stupid thiefs by tripletwentie · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Talk about stupid people, take a look at the links of stupid criminals. It's pretty amusing.
    stupid bank robbers
    The Web-Odditorium

    1. Re:stupid thiefs by docbrown42 · · Score: 1

      Typical urban-legend stuff. If these were true stories, why dont they cite their sources? -Ed

      --
      Ed Wedig
      Graphic design services
      docbrown.net
    2. Re:stupid thiefs by tripletwentie · · Score: 1

      I would just like to comment on the score a moderater decided to give me for the comment above this entitled "stupid thiefs." I was rated a 0 with an Off Topic explanation in which I believe I was unfairly judged, let me explain.

      If you read the referenced article, in particular this excerpt:

      "Cyber criminals are like idiot Hansel and Gretels, scattering electronic breadcrumbs that lead straight to them," said retired New York City detective Pete Angonasta. "You just don't see this sort of behavior in other criminals. I've never seen a burglar leaving cute notes crediting the crime to himself. And I've never run across a burglar who puts up a self-promotional website or goes into a chat room to discuss the night's activities."

      You will see I was merely expanding on this topic by offering other links where people can read about other stupid criminals, as stated in the article.

      Thanks for listening.

      --all the world wants is a little justice.

  20. crimes? by www.sorehands.com · · Score: 1, Flamebait
    So if I leave a window unlocked, it is ok to break into my house? If a woman is wearing a short skirt, it is ok to rape her? You have cash on you, it is ok to mug you? You have a nice car, it is ok to car-jack you?


    You should not be using insecure products, but that does not excuse the crime.

    --
    Fight Spammers!
    1. Re:crimes? by seann · · Score: 0

      Yes it's ok to rape her because you can always reinstall the backups of her.
      oh wait, no you can't.

      --
      I'm a big retard who forgot to log out of Slashdot on Mike's computer! LOOK AT ME.
    2. Re:crimes? by NexusJedi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      From the original post (emphasis added):

      Not to say that virus writers ... are not criminals but ... they aren't terrorists!

      I think you missed Christianfreak's point. They are criminals. They should be punished (or, better yet, rehabilitated... but when have we ever done that with criminals?). But they are not terrorists.

      Granted, terrorism doesn't have to involve killing, but these kids aren't trying to make some crazed point. They're not striving to strike fear into the heart of everyone in the nation. They are simply, as Christianfreak put it, kids with too much time on their hands.

      The people equating virus/worm writers with terrorists seem to be putting their bottom line at least on par with, if not above, the value of human life. That frightens me more than the network being down for a couple of days ever would.

    3. Re:crimes? by cavemanf16 · · Score: 1

      Of course it doesn't excuse the crime, but calling someone a terrorist because they disrupt, but don't DESTROY someone's daily life is absolutely absurd. The original post was trying to only convey that thought. Terrorists kill people, pick-pockets grab things. The two are not the same thing, so whoever is calling script-kiddies terrorists is just pissed off with themselves and others for purchasing proprietary software that they cannot support properly by installing patches to security flaws. There are two (maybe even three) parties at fault here, and none of them are killing people, so let's not refer to those that exploit other people's ineptitude to maintain their computers as terrorists.

    4. Re:crimes? by tomstdenis · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      "kids with too much time on their hands" who also happen to be ruining the internet for millions of people.

      What if I was writting my Ph.D and I got this virus you wrote and it trashed it along with all my notes.

      Well you just costed me a few years of my life. [yes backups are a good idea but its not upto you to force me to backup my data].

      Their is more to virusses and worms etc then just "slow networks". For many it could cost them a serious portion of their lives.

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    5. Re:crimes? by sshore · · Score: 1
      You should not be using insecure products, but that does not excuse the crime.

      Read the original author's post more carefully. He wasn't justifying the crime because of poor security, but suggesting that once one identifies a product with poor security, one should use something else.

      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

      Of course, this doesn't even touch on the poster's main point, that one cannot liken a virus writer to a terrorist as his intent is different and the scope of his damage is far less tangible.

    6. Re:crimes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want the problem fixed, don't yell at the viruswriters, yell at the companies that make the products that you use or find someone who cares about and understands security.

      Not backing up years of data is negligence on your part btw. Ever experienced a real HDD-crash, or burned-down building? That's what they're for.

      It's TOO easy to find fault in someone else and continue doing the same mistakes. Whiney voice: "Someone else needs to change.. I won't."

    7. Re:crimes? by singularity · · Score: 2

      Did you even read the post?

      Not to say that virus writers don't do damage or even that they are not criminals

      The writer agrees that they are criminals. The poster simply says that the writers are not terrorists, as the original article implies. I agree completely.

      Anyone calling them "terrorists" is just as guilty of using the Sept. 11 attacks for their own good as Saturn is in their latest line of commercials, trying to sell more cars "because it is our duty as Americans."

      Treat them as criminals, not terrorists. There is a huge difference, and hopefully the American people can remember that difference when we start trying Middle-Easterners for expired visas.

      To put this argument another way, if you break into my car, should you be tried as a terrorist?

      --
      - (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
    8. Re:crimes? by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 3, Insightful
      So if I leave a window unlocked, it is ok to break into my house? If a woman is wearing a short skirt, it is ok to rape her? You have cash on you, it is ok to mug you? You have a nice car, it is ok to car-jack you?
      If your appartment/house has an Abloy high-security lock, it is far less likely to be picked than the neighbour who only has a el-cheapo generic tin-metal lock...
    9. Re:crimes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Real doctoral candidates probably don't used the word "costed".

      Well, not much, anyway.

    10. Re:crimes? by alcmena · · Score: 1

      if you break into my car, should you be tried as a terrorist?

      Depends... Is the car theif middle-eastern?

      Hate to say it, but that's the direction this country is going if we don't wise up and remember the past.

    11. Re:crimes? by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

      Yeah I know you should back stuff up. My point is who are you to tell me how to use MY computer.

      As for the "using buggy software". Yea software vendors should get on the ball, but again, who are you to exploit the bug and cause me to lose my data?

      Its not your computer you're fucking with, its mine! Hey write an exploit for yourself all you want, share the exploit in non-source/binary form all you want. Just don't tell me that when some criminal "kid" destroys my hard disk "its your fault for not backing it up".

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    12. Re:crimes? by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

      Touche. I should have proof read that.

      I think half the posters here however should let a virus unexpectedly thrash their computer. Then they can come back to /. and talk to softly about "kids being kids".

      Hey better yet let the virus thrash their network at their place of employment. Then let the management talk softly about it :-)

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    13. Re:crimes? by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      Killing or threatening to kill is only one aspect of terrorism. Disrupting business in order to cause havoc is another. I agree that they probably don't have a particular axe to grind, but that doesn't excuse the fact that their actions cause massive disruption of personal, corporate, and governmental business.

      Making people afraid to visit web sites and afraid to open email is a mild form of undirected terror, I'd say.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    14. Re:crimes? by szomb · · Score: 1

      What if your hard drive crashes? Your data is lost through no one's fault but your own. Moral of the story: if you don't back up your work, ESPECIALLY work that took you "years of your life" to complete, then you lose your right to whine when you get fucked.

      --
      Just because a few of us can read write and do a little math, doesn't mean we deserve to conquer the universe
    15. Re:crimes? by _ph1ux_ · · Score: 1

      its not that you left your window unlocked - its that the window that you bought from the window company has serious flaws that allow me to enter your home even if you think it is locked...

      your point is not valid - his is. the point is that people are using products with a false sense of security - and when the product is compromised it seems that we blame the person who compromised it - even though they were just pointing out the flaws of the product. But we never go after the manufacturer for creating a crappy product that allows for so many break-ins.

    16. Re:crimes? by RollingThunder · · Score: 2

      While I don't disagree that virus writers shouldn't get some correction (be it therapy, jail time, or a few whacks with a cane), if you were stupid enough to not have backups of your thesis, you shouldn't be a bloody doctor.

    17. Re:crimes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Viruses are no worse than theft, at worse. The only difference is viruses will harm data/slow your network down whereas theft will leave you WITHOUT a computer or WITHOUT a network thereby costing you not only years of your life but sans a computer as well.

    18. Re:crimes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, and what if you were writing your thesis and I broke into your office and stole all your notes and wiped your computer? Would I be a terrorist then too? Terrorism implies a specific intention, and that is to create fear and terror in your target population to achieve a specific goal, to '[intimidate] or [coerce] societies or governments' (from a dictionary). I don't think a virus released from a virus toolkit by a script kiddie with too much time on his hands and not enough friends of the opposite gender qualifies as an act of terrorism.

    19. Re:crimes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, I see! Because a tornado might destroy your house (you did have a backup, didn't you?) then it is also ok for someone to break in and destroy what they want?

    20. Re:crimes? by thogard · · Score: 1

      Only locksmiths pick locks. Crooks just bash the door or windows. On a typical house going from a 5 pin to a 8 pin pick proof lock will not reduce the risk of a break in at all. Thats why they call them 'break-ins', something gets broken.

      Back OT, In most places if a lock smith breaks into houses and gets caught, the courts will have extra punishment because they are a locksmith.

    21. Re:crimes? by Zachary+Kessin · · Score: 2

      Its not just a question of having backups of major files. If in the middle of a deadline your computer crashes and burns and you spend the next 2 days rebuilding it that is still damage. I don't know about you but my time is valuable. I don't need the headache of doing that because some kid thought showing off to his buddies would be a good idea.

      --
      Erlang Developer and podcaster
    22. Re:crimes? by Gaijinator · · Score: 1

      Then are sharks terrorists because they make people afraid to swim in the oceans around Florida?

      --
      "For success, it is essential you have Thunderball Fists." "I can have such a thing?" "That's right. Thunderball Fists."
    23. Re:crimes? by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

      Lets look up the word "terror"

      http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=t er ror

      Specically #1,2,3

      #3. The ability to instill intense fear

      What is a "terroist" someone who commits another to a state of "terror" or commits "terror".

      So yes, a 12 yr old kid that makes you afraid about your uncertain future [i.e all your work is corrupt] is instilling "intense fear".

      I'd say if I had a deadline to meet in a few days and my data was lost I would be worried about my employment status.

      And don't give us that crap about "you should back stuff up". Yes that's true. But you **should** back it up for a **different** reason. I should back up stuff because I fear the possibility of undesirable hardware failures [and no a HW failure is not terroism because a) computers are inanimate and b) its not on purpose or intent on doing so].

      Some 12 yr old kid is not going to tell me how I should and shouldn't use my computer because they are reckless behind the seat of a mallicious script they probably don't even understand.

      And to whoever is trying to connect to my proxy, its behind a firewall so give it up already!

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    24. Re:crimes? by delcielo · · Score: 1

      I can't believe that somebody moderated the parent of this as flamebait. The analogy is perfect. If somebody breaks into my house because I used the stock wood door jamb rather than opting for the superstrength 1/4 inch steel, that doesn't make it my fault.

      That flamebait mod just shows how screwed up our priorities are.

      --
      Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
    25. Re:crimes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually terrorists are those who inspire terror in others in order to manipute them in some fashion. no killing is needed just fear

    26. Re:crimes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone better lop off my brother's head for scaring me when I came around the corner at the age of ten, then. You're stupid.

  21. Wasted bandwidth from SirCam by Adversive · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I answer Webmaster e-mail for Velocitus Internet Services and I typically receive about 150-200 SirCam virus e-mails every day.

    As SirCam virus e-mails average 250kb per message, each month we pass over a gigabyte of bandwidth on this crap.

    I wonder if its possible to approximate how many dollars worth of bandwidth and lost productivity have been lost to these kinds of worms. I don't see why the authors shouldn't be prosecuted more harshly. This is just large-scale vandalism that raises the prices for everyone else to make up for it.

    --
    Adversive
    My cat's breath smells like cat food.
    1. Re:Wasted bandwidth from SirCam by s390 · · Score: 2

      As SirCam virus e-mails average 250kb per message, each month we pass over a gigabyte of bandwidth on this crap.

      Hmmm. You've probably got T3 or better pipe, but lets say you only have a T1 (1.5 Mbps). A GB takes a only a couple of minutes of your monthly bandwidth capacity. You're incensed at this? You're going to devote major efforts to stop it? If so, you don't have enough to do to keep you busy with business mission-critical work there. Less than 1% of bandwidth capacity is just noise.

      Of course, destructive worms are a much different matter, and where worms destroy systems and data causing lost productivity, overtime, and business losses I agree with you, somewhat. But clueless choices to use Microsoft software are where the blame really should be placed in such circumstances. The worm/virus writers are just opportunists preying on fundamentally insecure Microsoft based systems. And that's your fault.

    2. Re:Wasted bandwidth from SirCam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That sounds good.

      Now that you've established the cost of the bandwidth in bytes, let's start charging Free Software listservs and ftp.kernel.org for all the bandwith they consume.

      In fact, with the lower admin cost of the modern infrastructure, let's start charging people for bandwidth consumed by volume. Those guys who download free software suck up bandwith like nobody believes. Why should grannie, who sends two emails a week to her newphew, pay the same access charges?

      Let the market decide. Do away with the hidden subsidies that keep free software afloat.

    3. Re:Wasted bandwidth from SirCam by cavemanf16 · · Score: 1
      The original poster got it slightly wrong. What he should have said is that: "I get ~150-200 Sircam emails per day at an average size of 250KB per attachment (that's Kilo-Bytes, not Kilo-Bits)"

      Then you guesstimated that they have a T1 line capable of 1.5 Mega-bits per second. This means he's receiving ~2.0 Mega-bits of info per day from SirCam emails. So in the end, if you do all the calculations, this amounts to an even less impressive 0.0015% of his bandwidth being taken by Sircam per day. So yes, the amount of insignifigance of this is amazing. Now when I get CodeRed and its variants pinging my computer and every computer on the Cable network in my area continuously, 24/7, every 2 minutes, THAT's a lot of traffic.

    4. Re:Wasted bandwidth from SirCam by nixterino · · Score: 1

      Bandwidth is measured in bits per unit time, as in bits/sec or MB/sec. You can't pass "over a gigabyte of bandwidth on this crap".

    5. Re:Wasted bandwidth from SirCam by cavemanf16 · · Score: 1
      Oooops!! Let me do the math again:

      Then you guesstimated that they have a T1 line capable of 1.5 Mega-bits per second. This means he's receiving ~300.0-400.0 Mega-bits of info per day from SirCam emails. So in the end, if you do all the calculations, this amounts to an even less impressive ~0.00000023%-0.00000077% of his bandwidth being taken by Sircam per day. So yes, the amount of insignifigance of this is amazing. Now when I get CodeRed and its variants pinging my computer and every computer on the Cable network in my area continuously, 24/7, every 2 minutes, THAT's a lot of traffic.

    6. Re:Wasted bandwidth from SirCam by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 2
      I typically receive about 150-200 SirCam virus e-mails every day.

      Gosh, at this point, I'd really look into installing a good AV filtering gateway. You won't cut bandwidth in, but at least you won't be passing the stuff on.

      Oh yeah, the guy who told you kick off Windows users? He was right, too...

      --
      That is all.
    7. Re:Wasted bandwidth from SirCam by g1zmo · · Score: 1

      >As SirCam virus e-mails average 250kb per message, each month we pass over a gigabyte of bandwidth on this crap.

      >I wonder if its possible to approximate how many dollars worth of bandwidth and lost productivity have been lost to these kinds of worms. I don't see why the >authors shouldn't be prosecuted more harshly. This is just large-scale vandalism that raises the prices for everyone else to make up for it.

      Mabe I'm short-sighted, but I don't get this kind of argument. How much bandwith is wasted by ARP requests that I can't answer? How about all those silly dhcp broadcasts that hosts send out when booting up?

      Should people be persecuted because they took the long way to get to the grocery store? After all, they are adding unnecessary wear-and-tear on the sidewalks. Or even worse, how about those pointless walks through the park? Destructive activity, minute as it may be, in aggregate causes our tax dollars to be spent replacing public facilities. Gads!

      It's a PUBLIC NETWORK! There's going to be traffic that you didn't ask for. At my house, I lock my doors so that public traffic doesn't interfere with my private life. If someone were to break into my house, then they commited a crime. If someone walked into my house because I took the front door off it's hinges and hung a neon 'OPEN' sign, well then that's my fault.

      Who's responsibility do you expect it to be to ensure that your internet gateway remains free and clear of anything not having to do with your company?

      I just don't see how traffic being blocked at a firewall can have the negative effect that so many people cry about. I would love to hear a rationalized explanation on how this is as big of a problem as people make it out to be.

      --
      I have found there are just two ways to go.
      It all comes down to livin' fast or dyin' slow.       -REK, Jr.
    8. Re:Wasted bandwidth from SirCam by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      -> The average add is 16-50kb
      -> The average number of ads is 10 (it's BAD isn't it)
      -> 10 spam messages a month per person who visits cnn.com
      -> 1 spam message = at least 20 kb
      -> cnn.com boasts 100.000 visitors daily

      law enforcement logic:
      the damage to our society not to mention our way of life is enormous

      bsa logic:
      1 megabyte = 0.35 cents, so that's costing us BILLIONS

      american logic:
      WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN

      american logic 2:
      what do we care ?

      american logic 3:
      TERRORISTS !!!

  22. First Ammendment? by gypsyx · · Score: 1

    If the author spreads the worm, then we should hold them accountable. However, I feel that the people who simply author worms/virii/etc should be allowed to. I say it's free speech!

    Maybe we need some open source worms...

    1. Re:First Ammendment? by Jester998 · · Score: 1

      "Maybe we need some open source worms..."

      Haha... It would be nice, just to see some of the masterful pieces of software engineering that virus writers create.

      But can you imagine the shitstorm that M$ (and its bed-buddies) would raise? Hell... they don't even want to disclose that a vulnerability *exists*, let alone alone a code fragment which demonstrates an exploit. Can you imagine what they'd do if the FULL source for a worm like Code Red was released?

    2. Re:First Ammendment? by nixterino · · Score: 1

      If people just write worms and never release them we would never know - it's hardly even "speech" if no one sees it. It's as if I whisper libelous comments about someone but not in anyone's presence...

    3. Re:First Ammendment? by mikael_j · · Score: 1

      Can you imagine what they'd do if the FULL source for a worm like Code Red was released?
      You never played "human code red"? on some machines that let anyone write to the www root dir you could copy the user's warez/mp3s there and then download them, quite hilarious...

      /Mikael Jacobson

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    4. Re:First Ammendment? by gypsyx · · Score: 1
      If I author a program and send the code to people, it's speech. If I don't send the code to anyone, it's still speech. If I run destructive programs or trick people/programs/operating systems into running destructive programs, I stop speaking and begin willfully destroying property. The fact is that Americans have freedom of press and speech. Whether or not we ever get published or listened to is irrelevant.

      My previous post assumes that I assume all Slashdot readers have American rights. I just noticed that. How silly of me to overlook so many people...

    5. Re:First Ammendment? by nixterino · · Score: 1

      If I say something but nobody hears me have I made a sound? I wasn't trying to say that speech s/b unprotected by the Constitution but that I wasn't sure the aforementioned example constituted speech.

    6. Re:First Ammendment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its illegal to draw up plans for creating a bomb or other highly destructive device. How is that any different than creating a virus?

    7. Re:First Ammendment? by gypsyx · · Score: 1

      Hrm. I didn't know it was illegal to do such things. Surely those laws go against the first ammendment.

    8. Re:First Ammendment? by gypsyx · · Score: 1

      Ah! You are right in saying that it may not be considered speech by the legal system. We would need a court to say for sure. Unfortunately, the DeCSS case doesn't give my theory much ground to stand on. In my opinion, code is speech because it is a creation of my mind typed up in a language a compiler (and other programmers) can understand.

  23. Re:Trivial? What will happen with a "real" virus? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

    Why just Palestinians? Why not Israelis? Several worms/viruses in recent history have come from Israel.

    Oh, I forgot, Congress has been bought by the Israeli lobby.

    Silly me.

  24. Re:Like DoS attacks on spammers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    We could do with a tool to automatically launch DoS attacks on spammers.

    I get about ten spams a day from Excite, so they could do with a hit. The rest are mostly from Yahoo, so they obviously need to be hit, and after that, well there are plenty of sites with lists of the offenders.

    And before anyone tells me that Yahoo have an anti-spam policy, taking 3 days to send a robot reply is not likely to prevent spamming. It can't be hard to recognise 20,000 identical e-mails have been sent, and to delete all of them instantly. And if other ISPs are allowing Yahoo's name to be attached to mail not originating from Yahoo, then they could perfectly well sue under a bunch of existing legislation. They don't, because they don't give a @#£$ for anyone other than their own users, and all they want to do with them is fob then off. DoS for Yahoo - Yesssssss!

  25. Let's limit the destructive capabilities by ryanmoffett · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because the Internet is a global network, authors of these worms come from all over the world, and thus there is no consitency on how they are dealt with according to local laws or lack thereof. The ramifications of such worms are not well understood by local law makers and law enforcement officials. It's quite possible that some worms could be authored by individuals or groups outside the US in which there is almost no law or order. I doubt we can justify bombing a country because of prolific worm propogation.

    So, while some sit pondering on how to prosecute the authors of such worms, doesn't it make more sense to focus efforts on preventing the problems that worms cause by eliminating the well known, published ways that the past 4 or 5 recent worms have propogated? How many email worms need to take place before people realize that the worm authors are only half guilty? End users need education. Applications (read Outlook) need to provide better ability for users to limit functionality to core functions unless otherwise needed.

    Catching the new virus writers and discovering their techniques is and always will be a game of "whack-a-mole". You slam the hammer down, only to find another one pops up in a "security-hole" somewhere else.

    1. Re:Let's limit the destructive capabilities by Sly+Mongoose · · Score: 2
      It's quite possible that some worms could be authored by individuals or groups outside the US in which there is almost no law or order.

      That's right. Because outside the US there isn't any law or order to speak of....
  26. Why Worm Writers Use Stayfree? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    Tampons! Tampons! Tampons! Billions and Billions of tampons!

    1. Re:Why Worm Writers Use Stayfree? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those are sanitary pads. Not tampons.

      Clearly you're outside your area of expertise if you don't know the difference between sanitary pads and tampons.

  27. Form a posse? by Nikau · · Score: 3, Interesting
    OK, maybe "posse" isn't the correct term. But in the article it says that most of the information leading to an arrest of worm writers comes from people who happen to see the worm writers bragging, etc.

    So what I'm wondering is if anyone has bothered to form an organization to do exactly that, maybe along the line of CyberAngels. Let's face it, the people who write these useless things, although they definitely aren't terrorists, are wasting other peoples' bandwidth, resources, and precious time. And they do deserve to be punished. But what's stopping the slew of arrests is a lack of manpower. Law enforcement officials can't be everywhere, they have their limits.

    So what I'm suggesting is something based off of CyberAngels. The people volunteering there track down stalkers, harassers, child pornographers, and other "cybercrimes" that go beyond the Internet and into your personal life. They do good work. My idea then, is much the same. Get people with the necessary skills, who understand the net, understand the technology, and make use of those skills to help track down all those worm writers, script kiddies, and the like.

    Personally, I think it may work. Anyone have any thoughts?

    --
    There is no escape from The Muffin.
    1. Re:Form a posse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A more productive idea might be to form an industry consortium where all the companies that claim they are loosing bazillions of dollars per year to worms contribute a few hundred bucks each per year to hire a stable of lawyers and private investigators. Tracking down the perps shouldn't be too hard, then the lawyers could do what they do best - make life a living hell for the perps (or more likely the parents of the perps). Might lead to a little more parental supervision of the script kiddies (like throwing their PCs out a 2nd floor window...)

    2. Re:Form a posse? by Cacophony · · Score: 1

      On a simalar note if the FBI or whoever don't have the personnel to dedicate to such cases why don't they just offer a bounty? Say like $20K for find incriminating evidence about the author of SirCam. If they had a dedicated team I'm sure it would cost them more than that amount to track things like this with considering how gov spends money, they probably save thousands. Plus the opportunity to be bounty hunter is just too cool :-)

    3. Re:Form a posse? by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...or better yet. Use all of that money to build alternatives to the software in use that causes these worms and virii to thrive and grow.

      Also, if you are going to draw and quarter a bunch of script kiddes it's also time to start fining and imprisoning the stupid people that execute these trojans.

      Why just punish the author? Without a few morons to spread this stuff around, it never would surivive in the wild. Really? How many UNIQUE email addresses did you see the last time one of these things rampaged across your corporate email network. 2? 3?

      Take those 3 twits into the corporate atrium and FLOG them.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    4. Re:Form a posse? by sg_oneill · · Score: 2

      It's an interesting concept, (and a strikingly Libertarian one actually... Who needs police when you have a posse?).

      Anyway, It reminds me about the old days(well early nineties anyway) of IRC when I used to op on one of the more family channels and occasionally some a/s/l retard would come in asking for cyber or whatever. (Click name F2 - kick F3 - kick ban F4 kick ban winnuke!).

      It sometimes came to the ops attention that there where "kiddie pr0n" people on the networks and sometimes they would DCC this crap to kids and the like. There where also a bunch of kids who would invoke the whole ping / dcc flood etc nightmare on newbies and stuff.

      After a while a whole bunch of the more technically literate among us started to fight back, invading pr0n channels, gathering evidence, and getting offenders server banned etc. On one occassion it lead to a raid by some US cops on a particularly bad offender leading to some apparently nasty child abuse being uncovered.

      None the less we where told to refrain from vigilante behaviour by the server ops, and for me that spelt the death of IRC as since we felt obliged to do as we where told, it only left the assholes with the weapons to do the attacking

      I do not intend an analogy with gun laws, since when human life is concerned , I feel it's best left to real cops, but with the sort of "emotional" damage that malicious skript kiddies and pr0nsters can do, sometimes fighting back really seems the thing to do.

      Think snort add in that DoS's back!(maybe)

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
  28. page lengthening post! by Klerck · · Score: -1

    Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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  29. Writing Word templates is not a crime. by gig · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't blame the worm writers. Blaming them is like blaming the rain. Rain is a feature of our planet and worms and viruses are a feature of Microsoft software. Writing a Word template, no matter how complex or unusual, is not a crime. Releasing email clients and operating systems that blow up or do really weird things when they encounter Word templates ... that's questionable.

    1. Re:Writing Word templates is not a crime. by ZaneMcAuley · · Score: 1

      Check the latest worm tech.

      They carry theyre own mail client with them :)
      Next you wont even need an OS, it will bring its own.

      --
      ----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
    2. Re:Writing Word templates is not a crime. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just get rid of the meta virus MS Windows.

    3. Re:Writing Word templates is not a crime. by Sierpinski · · Score: 1

      If you don't blame the worm writers, then who is to blame? You say its like blaming the rain, but rain is natural. It occurs with or without us. If you want to compare them to something, compare them to people who maliciously release contaminents into the open air. Blaming Windows for these viruses would be like blaming Colt or Smith & Wesson when one of their firearms is used in a criminal act. It's just not logical.

      I do not think that these script kiddies should be put into the same category as terrorists, but I do think that they should be persued and punished. It is a malicious, intentional act. That in itself constitutes a crime in my opinion.

      --
      And they said zombies weren't real!
    4. Re:Writing Word templates is not a crime. by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Pisspoor systems programming and design is to blame.

      Before microsoft email clients became prevalent, the notion of an "email virus" was considered generally absurd.

      They make OSes for idiots, encourage them to be idiots, and then hand them loaded firearms.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    5. Re:Writing Word templates is not a crime. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This statement might meet with some snarling and gnashing of teeth, but hell it needs to be said.

      Aren't crimes commited with a colt or a smith & wesson partly the fault of the gun manufacturer: Dose anyone HUNT with pistols, outside of fring groups, would your home be any less 'protected' if you had a shotgun instead of a pistol. The pistol is built to be concealabal, it's only accurate to about 30 meters- it was built to be concealed and used against other humans. I think that any company that tires to make a profit selling things that were meant to be hidden until used to harm another human being are doing somethign wrong and should be held acountabal for the definate end result of there practices- there devices will be used to commit crimes.

      By the same token microsoft should be forced to shoulder some of the blame for the malicious spread of virii: they go out of there way to shove outlook express down everyon's throats- it comes pre-installed, and it will try to automatically open any .eml extension you dubble-click on, and then it's an HTML client by default, allowing the simple act of READING e-mail to spread virii.

  30. Aren't we going after the wrong people? by linuxrunner · · Score: 1, Troll

    I mean shouldn't we go after the people who are dumb enough to open up stange attachments and spead the Goner Viurs....

    Or how about going after Microsoft for leaving gaping holes in IIS or in good olde stand-by Outlook Express. You know, the staple e-mail client that everyone uses to spread these viruses....

    Anyone can write a virus.... We need to educate and create barriers to stop your average villige idoit from opening up viruses.... even if it mean having a pop-up on outlook that recognizes .exe files, .com, .pif, .bat, heck anything and says "are you sure you want to open this? This may contain a virus." and voila... that will probably cut our virus spreading down by half!!!!

    --
    www.slightlycrewed.com - Because aren't we all?
    1. Re:Aren't we going after the wrong people? by ConsigliereDea · · Score: 1

      Some versions of Outlook DO ask if you are sure you want to open the attachment. And guess what, users still open them. No amount of warning is going to keep some users from opening an email that shows a return address from a best buddy. As for going after the people who are "dumb enough" to open attachments....Isn't that like saying that we shouldn't arrest arsonists just because someone was stupid enough to be asleep in the house when it burned down?

    2. Re:Aren't we going after the wrong people? by cisco_rob · · Score: 1

      Agreed.

      If a car maker finds a defect in their product, they recall and fix it -- but they can still face lawsuits for their poor performance in design. (think Ford Explorer..)

      No one forced people to buy the explorer, but it malfunctioned, and people were paid off.

      I want recompense for my time dealing with users because of this -- what if someone was using a wireless modem? Don't they charge by the KB?

      --
      "I do not fear computers. I fear lack of them." -Isaac Asimov
    3. Re:Aren't we going after the wrong people? by lordkuri · · Score: 0

      actually, I'm pretty sure it does exactly that (at least with .exe's)

      the main problem is that people in general are too "busy" to read the shit, they just keep clicking until it opens.

    4. Re:Aren't we going after the wrong people? by Pfhreakaz0id · · Score: 2

      yet the worms usually exploit holes that have had patches available for MONTHS (i.e., code red). Who's fault is that?

      --
      DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
    5. Re:Aren't we going after the wrong people? by loteck · · Score: 0, Troll

      Yes.. why are we going after Osama? Why aren't we going after those STUPID airlines? Why dont they have automatic-terrorist-detector-killer machines on every plane? I mean.. DUH...

      Blame the gunmaker, instead of the person who committed the murder.

      Blame the programmer, instead of the person who wrote the malicious code.

      Blame someone else, just not me. make sure that we never get it back down to personal responsibility, because the liberal left hates that. They are just itching for you whine and complain yourself into slavery, to trade your freedoms so they can give you "security".

      People need to get a clue.

    6. Re:Aren't we going after the wrong people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All software vendors should be required to carry liability insurance as part of the burden of distributing their software.

      I.e. Microsoft should have a $10 Million policy for distributing Outlook Express.

      And of course Mozilla should have a $10 M policy as well.

      Wow! Linus Torvalds just ran out of money!

    7. Re:Aren't we going after the wrong people? by linuxrunner · · Score: 1

      Make a legitimate comment and I get trolled? Bunch of bad moderators out there huh?

      --
      www.slightlycrewed.com - Because aren't we all?
    8. Re:Aren't we going after the wrong people? by Afrosheen · · Score: 1

      Isn't that like saying that we shouldn't arrest arsonists just because someone was stupid enough to be asleep in the house when it burned down?

      What an asinine analogy. Is today Morons Who Post Bad Analogies day? A more appropriate analogy would be 'we shouldn't give speeding tickets to people who choose to speed even though they see a speed limit sign every 2 miles and there are cops all over the highway'. Ignoring warning signs doesn't absolve you from the fallout, it just makes you guilty AND stupid.

    9. Re:Aren't we going after the wrong people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well, ya had me until you got political.

      I'm truly sorry you hate people because they believe differently than you do.

    10. Re:Aren't we going after the wrong people? by Afrosheen · · Score: 1

      Where's my troll moderator point when I need it *sigh*.

      I agree with your blame someone else policy though..people do love to point fingers anywhere but at themselves most of the time. Like I said in an earlier post, security is a 2 way street.

    11. Re:Aren't we going after the wrong people? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      THEN DON'T LET THE EMAIL PROGRAM RUN IT!

      If you know that users are stupid or malicious, DESIGN THAT WAY.

      An email client should not open and run untrusted binaries, PERIOD!

      On Windows, getting and email client to do such a thing in this day and age should require a bone fide GURU. No moron should be able to take a recent version of WinDOS and then use it as a breeding ground for email virii.

      When you find out that a nifty new feature is potentially harmful, BACK IT THE F*CK OUT.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    12. Re:Aren't we going after the wrong people? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      A nag box is not sufficient. We all know this.

      Security is not achieved by allowing all the underlings to "play nice". Security is achieved by FORCING all the underlings to play nice.

      If humans in general could be trusted to "do the right thing", all forms of management and rule enforcment would be obsolete by now. They're clearly not at this point. So, ENFORCE limitats.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    13. Re:Aren't we going after the wrong people? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Israeli style cabin doors would have made all 4 of those hijackings moot actually. RESISTANCE made the 3rd moot.

      All of our recent security "enhancements" are actually somewhat laughable in light of this. 11-Sep-01 was carried off purely based on pure GALL. The majority of the recent changes don't address pure GALL.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    14. Re:Aren't we going after the wrong people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Recently there was a drive-by shooting. It occured at 10:00 PM. A 6 year-old girl was in her yard and she was hit by a bullet during this drive-by. My grandmother immediately says "WHAT WAS SHE DOING OUT IN HER YARD AT 10:00 PM ANYWAY!? THAT MORON! SHE SHOULDA BEEN IN BED" after hearing the news.

    15. Re:Aren't we going after the wrong people? by Afrosheen · · Score: 1

      A 6 year old in the front yard at 10pm in Compton = homocide statistic.

      Even if she was inside she could've been hit by a stray.

  31. Hurting people, not network equipment by LazyDawg · · Score: 2

    Contrary to popular belief, _nobody_ dies when someone releases a worm. Sure, the Internet gets slowed down, a headache is made for all kinds of computer people, but outside of the Internet, nobody dies. Production doesn't stop in our factories, our banks and credit cards keep making debt for people, the hospitals don't keel over.

    The world is just not that dependant on the Internet, and never will be. Worms are definitely annoying, but they aren't hurting anyone physically, ever.

    --
    "Look at me, I invented the stove!" -- Ben Franklin
    1. Re:Hurting people, not network equipment by Ixitar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Following that train of thought...

      We don't need to punish those that embezzle from the banks, companies, etc. Nobody dies. Production doesn't stop in our factories, our banks and credit cards keep making debt for people, the hospitals don't keel over.

      The worm writers steal resources from companies, universities, governments, etc. when they have to deal with tracking down and eliminate the worm. This is valuable time that could be used working on other issues. Just like with embezzlement, there is cost to people involved.

      btw: People make debt for themselves.

    2. Re:Hurting people, not network equipment by LazyDawg · · Score: 2

      I agree!

      People *shouldn't* be given punishments as nasty as violent offenders for crimes like embezzlement, robbing banks and companies, etc. Theft is one thing, murder, rape and assault are another. Sure, it pisses some people off, but nobody dies, and they should act like its just another nuisance, not some act of terrorism!

      --
      "Look at me, I invented the stove!" -- Ben Franklin
  32. We seem to have a lot of terrorists... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Under the logic they are using when they say worm writers are "terrorists", including those that only spread and do no damage, i can recall a few other things like this.

    Should we consider chain letter senders terrorists too now?
    Anyone who sends blast emails?
    All advertising done through email?

    They all distribute massive amounts of text over the internet at an alarming rate of speed...

  33. Yet these same law enforcement types... by Newer+Guy · · Score: 1

    Are all over P2P ppl. Why? There isn't any visible crime. Bandwith isn't even wasted. I'll tell you why one type of thing gets investigated andf another doesn't. D O L L A R S !!!!! Pure and simple.

  34. Terrorism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    terrorism:The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.


    When the United States says it will bomb or attack a nation, because said nation is known to support terrorism then the United States threat is a terrorist action. The United States is a terrorist nation, no strong argument can be made against this. For the United States to stop terrorism, as our politicians claim they want to in their rhetoric, they would have to refrain from bombing nations such as Kosovo, Iraq, Libya, etc., and avoid even threatening nations for political reasons. They could do but would be extremely difficult for them.


    When so many people use the word terrorism incorrectly it is easy to not know what the word means; its meaning becoming even more ambiguous than it was before. In context the mass media is using it people with little power who do not have the legitamcy of the government allied with the United States, who use or threaten violence are terrorists. An entity with vast power such as the United States the way they are using the word is not considered a terrorist, yet they do exactly what Osama Bin Laden does to further their own goals. Might does not make right, though, whether you are Osama Bin Laden ordering attacks or the American government bombing Afghanistan.

    1. Re:Terrorism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah I notice that kind of stuff too. It is like people only criticize governments/nations or other entities that their own government and media have choosen to demonize. The West likes to demonize Iraq, when they were killing Kurds, but Turkey did so, with imputiny, they are the little darling of the West. You will hear no talk of fascist Grey Wolves or the gassing of Kurds, in Turkey, in the United States.

      The PKK(Workers Party of Kurdistan, a guerilla movement that wanted to establish a Kurdish homeland) used to operate in both Turkey and Iraq before the West helped them both to crush this movement. The PKK when Iraq was our ally were called 'terrorists'. These same terrorists magically became 'freedom fighters' when Iraq became the enemy of the United States. Also while this group were 'freedom fighters' in Iraq, they were simultaneously somehow 'terrorists' in Turkey, which was and still is a close ally of the United States.

      This selective observance of reality and selective criticism is disturbing. It seems the word terrorist is nothing more than a word that is convenient for a government or media to use to demonize a group, that they do not like. If it had any other meaning, then the same group in Turkey that is terrorist could not be a freedom fighter in Iraq, simultaneously, when the group in both countries acted so uniformly. It is amazing how fast a freedom fighter can become a terrorist or vice versa, when it befits the media. It must be some sort of bloody magic or the media is lying. It is obvious that it is the latter.

    2. Re:Terrorism by BluFinger · · Score: 1

      As my history teachers liked to point out... those that win the war write the history books.

      --
      Lib.BENCH the only site you'll ever need!
    3. Re:Terrorism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is this relevant? I am just stating that a nation that is the ally of the West receives the benefit that the Western media calls whatever insurgents they may have 'terrorists'. If the West hates that country, as they do Iraq, the Western media calls their insurgents 'freedom fighters'. That is all a terrorist is, anymore.

      What does this criteria of being your nation's ally have to do with winners or losers? Also, do you think, that I have never heard that quote before? I have many times, I am sure most people have heard it already. Before Iraq even lost the Gulf War, the PKK, magically became 'freedom fighters'. This has nothing to do with rewriting history after Iraq lost, they were rewriting it the second Iraq became our enemy, thus this quote is not applicable to the example I have given.

    4. Re:Terrorism by markmoss · · Score: 2

      AC left out one critical phrase from that definition of terrorism:

      terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence, not authorized by a government, by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

      That is, it's violent crime for political reasons. And note that with this definition, any laws against terrorism are redundant -- blowing up buildings is already illegal, blowing up buildings with people in them is more illegal (murder), etc. You don't need anti-terrorist laws, you just need effective enforcement of the usual laws, including doing something about other nations which shelter conspiracies to commit crimes in your nation. So when politicians rush out to pass more laws, ask whether they are (1) pandering to popular hysteria by passing unneeded laws, or (2) extending the power of government to meddle with political groups, thereby making it even harder to get the incumbents unelected...

      Of course, by that definition, nonviolent crimes such as computer exploits are certainly not terrorism. When someone calls a non-violent crime, or a non-crime, "terrorism", I rather suspect that he belongs to group 2 above. But this sort of re-definition just pushes us closer to the most cynical definition of "terrorism": individuals or non-governmental groups doing what governments do.

      After all, the FBI apparently now has a trojan program that insinuates itself into your system, records your keystrokes, and sends them your passwords. And if they can't directly get to the target system itself, want to bet they won't embed that in a virus to feed to any vulnerable machine on your local net? But they aren't terrorists -- because they're the gov't...

    5. Re:Terrorism by BluFinger · · Score: 1

      I wasn't detracting from what you had to say, just making an observation. Don't take things quite so literally. All that quote means is that the person controlling the making and/or distribution of information (news, history, whatever) are able to color the facts any way they want.

      The West is in power in the West... that's probably why it's termed "the West". Most of the information that the Western media has to rely on comes directly from the administrations governing the West. It's been deemed by the public at large that anything dissenting from the propganda of the leaders of the West is un-American (at least in America, is their an un-WhateverCountryYouHappenToLiveIn equivalent in other countries?) and evil.

      Do I think that it's a novel comment and that I'm brilliant to have espoused it here? Fuck no! Do I think it's a worthwhile summation on the limited viewpoint available in Western media? Fuck yes!

      --
      Lib.BENCH the only site you'll ever need!
    6. Re:Terrorism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. You have rendered it a biased definition. You have made this definition worse. All you added is not sanctioned by a government. Why not let the government tell you what terrorism means? How about you ask them to tell what every word means? How about you let them tell you what is right and wrong? You probably already let them do these things.

      How about this other definition...
      terrorism:randomly commiting acts of violence on people for politicial reasons

      Like for example, a certain nation carpet bombing and instating trade sanctions against Iraq which lead to thousands upon thousands of deaths.

      Excerpt from :http://home.att.net/~drew.hamre/docAlb.htm

      CBS Reporter Lesley Stahl (speaking of post-war sanctions against Iraq):
      "We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And - and you know, is the price worth it?"

      Madeleine Albright (at that time, US Ambassador to the UN):
      "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price - we think the price is worth it."

      Stahl won both an Emmy and a duPont-Columbia journalism award for this report, but Albright's comment went virtually unremarked in the U.S. (though it received considerable attention in the Middle East).

      Within six months, Madeleine Albright was unanimously approved by the Senate as U.S. Secretary of State."

    7. Re:Terrorism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh I am sorry, it is just most slashdot readers are incredulous and usually believe that America and other Western nations are some great humanitarians who go from nation to nation spreading joy and bombing Iraq and Afghanistan for the benefit of its citiziens who happen to be underneath those very same bombs.

      It is also common in my experience for people to believe we are in possesion of a 'free press' or 'free media'. I have not encountered such a beast in all my 19 years of life in the United States. Where is this 'free press' the West speaks of? I understand at one time in my country, long before I was born, there was something that resembled more closely a free press; the large media conglomerates and the government have subsquently killed this more free press thing long ago. Back then the government needed a large propaganda department, in World War I to teach us in posters and to censor the news, so that we understand that the Germans are 'Huns.' The Germans in the first great war, were not any worse than other European Power, but they were 'Huns.'

      You seem very reasonable, it is hard to find people radical(this is considered radical now, have you got this memo?) enough that they do not buy everything the media says, so I assume most people are jingoists until I have reason to believe otherwise. There are not many stragglers left, who are not foolish jingoists, thanks to television and other technology; wonderful harbringers of uniformity of opinion.

    8. Re:Terrorism by BluFinger · · Score: 1

      Slashdot is really that bad? I tend to browse in the highest-rated first, grouped by thread mode. That leaves a lot of the cruft below my radar screen... as I get tired of reading the same thing over and over again at about the third time I see it! :)

      You might want to check out www.kuro5hin.org if you haven't already. Tends to be a little higher quality discussion there, but as a by-product it takes longer to a little longer to get through a story.

      For 'free press' check out www.indymedia.org, again if you haven't already. They certainly offer a contrast to what most see, but they are quite biased as well. Also, by being on a local centers mailing list, you can get cool things like my "Tom Brokaw is full of shit" T-Shirt. I've had a few interesting conversations with people over that shirt.

      --
      Lib.BENCH the only site you'll ever need!
    9. Re:Terrorism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My favorite weblog is Infoshop

      It kicks Kuro5hins and slashdot's ass, they just do not have enough readership. Their polls are fucking hilarious. .

      The United States is at war with

      Who is the United States at War With?
      Oceania 16.35%
      Fill in the Blank 27.04%
      High Prices 2.20%
      People of Color 7.86%
      Blowback 3.46%
      Delta Tau Delta 1.89%
      Dr. Evil 11.32%
      Anti-Capitalists 12.58%
      Unwashed Masses 16.35%

      Some of the funnier posts from that poll:
      1."The United States will NOT always be at war with Oceania. Though it always has been at war with Oceania, the fall of Oceania is close at hand, because it is much weaker than the United States. (Employ the doublethink technique when thinking about how such a weak power as Oceania has managed to avoid defeat since the beginning of time. Also use doublethink to forget that the statements in these parentheses exist. IT IS YOUR DUTY TO THE PARTY.)

      WAR IS PEACE"

      2."Good news comrades!

      Due to recent successful actions against Oceania, chocolate production for the month of September has increased by a massive 15%! In celebration, the Happy Valley branch of the Junior Anti-Sex League will be eating chocloate as well as cabbage at our next meeting. Join us on Tuesday at our regular picnic table just next to the public square. An added attraction at this week's picnic will be the execution of the traitor Tony!

      Be there, or be reported!"

      3."The united states main weapon is ANESTHESIA.

      1,2,3,4 feed the rich and eat the poor 5.6.7.8 organize and save the state"

      Most people are way too orthodox to be able to understand what a radical like George Orwell really meant in his books. He states bluntly that all writing is Socialist propaganda, so all the fools who think Orwell was against Socialism, magically while being a Socialist most of his life, can not understand this kind of satire as they are not able to understand his books.

      I have talked to people I know in real life about 1984 and other Orwell books but they are too dim to see that our society is much the same as 1984, I was not surprised that that people at an anarchist weblog would understand it though. Orthodoxy is orthodoxy is orthodoxy. Whether it is achieved by force and scaring people in the USSR or by illusions in Germany, France and the US the result is the same, uniformity.

    10. Re:Terrorism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

      Also Kuro5hin and Slashdot seems to attract alot of my mortal enemies. The fake'libertarians,' the readers of Ayn Raynd. Explaining to them how anarchists have been calling themselves libertarians since the 19th century, long before their group somehow coined the term in the 20th century, is like trying to move water through a brick wall. They should name themselves Jeffersonians as some of them advocate. This way like the Marxists, Maoists and Trotskyites they can be identified readily as a group who puts some man who invents their dogma in a realm where reality and rationality can not touch. Such a realm exists, many people who I have spoken too, seem to store their mind in such a realm.

    11. Re:Terrorism by cburley · · Score: 1
      You don't need anti-terrorist laws, you just need effective enforcement of the usual laws

      This same logic was used to resist so-called "hate crime" laws.

      It seems to have failed there, too, logic having little to do, as far as I can tell, with the state of race relations in US political discourse.

      And since those committing "hate crimes" hardly constituted a direct menace against the entire Western world, the USA, Christianity, or whatever "terrorists" attack, I'll be surprised if your logic works even half as well when it comes to terrorism.

      (Note that I happen to agree with your logic. But it won't surprise me to learn that you support, or used to support, hate-crime laws that amplified punishment based on words used during the commission of a crime, for example, because it seems to me many of the same people worrying about losing civil liberties and having an excess of laws passed to defend against terrorism also supported just those same things happening when it was done in the name of race relations. If not in your case, I wonder if anyone's having second thoughts about their enthusiasm for advocating hate-crime laws, now that they see how much more power that sort of thing gives into government hands -- a government that has the annoying tendency to, on occasion, allow Republicans to direct its operations.)

      BTW, I also appreciate your insightful questioning about the distinction between government-sanctioned and non-government-sanctioned activities, vis-a-vis the word "terrorist".

      I think the distinctions include more than just the usual cynical reasons.

      For one thing, governments, especially of the sort we're talking about (the US), are, compared to terrorist cells, highly visible and largely public in their doings. They have an ongoing, visible exchange of ideas and power with the people they exist to protect and serve.

      While no human government approaches perfection in those respects, it's clearly easier to convince the local, state, or federal government to help you protect a freedom you cherish than it is to convince a local "terrorist" group likewise -- taking into account not only the mere act of the group agreeing with you, but effectively helping.

      For another thing, for better or worse, governments have a fairly intricate system, or dance, of depending on each other for support, validation, information, and so on. Seems to me one of the most fundamental of duties of a government is to police its own citizens; else it won't maintain "recognition" status from other governments, as "evil-doers" use the territory maintained by a government failing to police it propertly to launch attacks against other nations.

      Whereas, terrorist organizations, necessarily keeping most of their activities and communications hidden from public view, can't enjoy nearly the same "rich tapestry" of interdepencies that help keep governments from acting unilaterally to an excessive degree.

      For yet another thing, governments' claim to fame is some semblance of what I call coherence -- the ability to focus all of the "body" on a task at hand, the quality that prevents your walking feet from kicking a door shut while your hand tries to pull it open -- while terrorist organizations' thrive on the notion that their intents, purposes, and capacities are highly distributed and, thus, not necessarily focused.

      The upshot? Yes, a government might well do something just as "evil", on initial analysis, that a terrorist cell does, but:

      • The government typically provides some way for the populace to "fix" it using nonviolent means (in the USA, we call these "elections"; some call them "Supreme Court Rulings" ;-).

      • The government typically acts against its own citizens in such actions, while terrorists tend to focus on outsiders. Another government's response to such an act is more likely to be what an ordinary American's response is to learning that Al Queda leaders brutally execute "their own" for various spurious reasons -- "whoah, that's bad, but at least they're keeping their own people in line, making less trouble for us".

      • It's usually easier to effectively change the behavior of a government, especially when it comes to turning away from highly brutal acts, than to do the same for terrorist organizations. Getting various nations to, e.g., do away with the death penalty for some or all crimes has, as far as my limited knowledge of history informs me, taken less time and less deaths of innocents than convincing the IRA, PLO, and/or other "terrorist" organizations to do something far more obviously "right": give up killing innocents. Which makes sense, since the means by which people attain and maintain positions of authority tend to differ: in governments, the ability to convince lots of people of your care for their well-being is more important than being an efficient planner of mass murders; in terrorist organizations, I would think that publically and convincingly coming out against further violence gets you demoted real fast.

      For these and other reasons, I can see why people insist on drawing a bright, if squiggly and sometimes-moving, line between organizations like the UN, the US government, even the Pakistani government, and those like the IRA, PLO, Al Queda and the Taliban.

      Ultimately, all of these organizations (presumably) claim to be trying to make things better by the appropriate use of force. So it ends up being a question of their legitimacy as organizations (which includes their aims, their tactics, and so on), something that is, in this day and age, largely decided by governments, as well as by the press and the people.

      Or, a simpler answer: since the only form of organization humans grant the privilege of writing what we call "law" is "government", and every practical organization must make distinctions between internal and external states, behaviors, and so on, it isn't surprising that these "governments" find doing certain things acceptable that they have laws against other people or organizations doing on their own.

      That's why we have the death penalty and also laws against murder; why we have the GPL and yet it, itself, isn't licensed under the GPL; etc.

      --
      Practice random senselessness and act kind of beautiful.
    12. Re:Terrorism by markmoss · · Score: 2

      Nicely reasoned. But what ever gave you the idea I'm a Democrat or a supporter of "hate crime" legislation?

    13. Re:Terrorism by cburley · · Score: 1
      But what ever gave you the idea I'm a Democrat or a supporter of "hate crime" legislation?

      Nothing. It just wouldn't have surprised me to learn that you were, or had been, a supporter.

      Such combinations of beliefs haven't been difficult to find lately. E.g. people who seemed to stay very quiet, if not outright supportive, regarding the raid to "rescue" Elian Gonzalez from his Miami relatives (who I believe are American citizens), now express grave concern about whether military tribunals deny non-citizens their Constitutional rights.

      It's not that I don't appreciate anybody expressing concerns about rights. But it might be helpful if more people were aware of the importance of choosing their battles, their "enemies", their victims, and their collateral damage, more wisely. Otherwise, it's difficult to take seriously someone who thinks an armed raid of a law-abiding poor (right-wing, Christian?) family is "necessary" when they turn around and lament the treatment of people who may well have sworn to die for the cause of murdering innocent Americans.

      And, personally, I'd love to see more interviewers (journalists, whatever) ask such questions when they're faced with someone saying "military tribunals deny basic rights to the accused", e.g.: "how did you respond to the armed raid of the household of the Elian Gonzalez relatives -- did you protest that their rights were denied, or do you feel they posed a greater threat to US interests than people tried as terrorists under Bush's military tribunals?".

      Anyway, sorry if my earlier post appeared to label you in any way.

      --
      Practice random senselessness and act kind of beautiful.
    14. Re:Terrorism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You idiot. Stupid government apologist.

  35. DMCA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does this mean that worm writers can sue anti-virus companies for dis-assembly under the DMCA ?

  36. Riddler? by Monkey-Man · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Cyber criminals are like idiot Hansel and Gretels, scattering electronic breadcrumbs that lead straight to them," said retired New York City detective Pete Angonasta. "You just don't see this sort of behavior in other criminals. I've never seen a burglar leaving cute notes crediting the crime to himself. "

    This detective must have never watched the old Batman shows.

  37. Terrorism: Blowing up buildings vs binaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Blowing up a building is different than erasing a computer, or causing it to be in a situation where it needs to be erased.

    A backup can be restore or a reinstall done in a trivial amount of time _compard to recreating everything by hand, including writing the OS, etc_.

    The comparison which IS valid between making files and building disappear is David Copperfield making the statue of liberty "disappear".

    The equipment was not damaged, just your ability to see what you expect in both scenarios.

    It doesn't make it right to do so, but don't whine about it unless you never sped, jaywalked, spit on the sidewalk, littered and othewrwise obeyed every law on the books, right or wrong.

    1. Re:Terrorism: Blowing up buildings vs binaries by dillon_rinker · · Score: 2

      The equipment was not damaged, just your ability to see what you expect in both scenarios.

      So you experience no financial harm if I erase every bit on your hard drives, CD-ROMs, DVDs, floppies, and video tapes? Yes, a good disaster recovery plan will incorporate backups to restore data, but it takes time. Here's the equation:

      Loss of data = loss of time = loss of money

      For computer, yes, it's trivial compared to a building. For millions it can be comparable.

      I would further suggest that the cost of recreating a software installation and configuration, as well as restoration of data, will be comparable to the cost of setting up the system in the first place - maybe a little more, maybe a little less, but in the same ballpark. I think the same is true of rebuilding a building. There is no permanent damage to the computer - granted. But there is no permanent damage to the building when you blow a hole in the side, either - the damage can be repaired. Just because the damage is "virtual" rather than physical doesn't make it any less costly. And frankly, the only two types of damage suffered in a terrorist attack are human suffering/death financial losses. I fail to see why wiping 1 million hard drives is necessarily qualitatively different from demolishing one building.

    2. Re:Terrorism: Blowing up buildings vs binaries by szomb · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      And frankly, the only two types of damage suffered in a terrorist attack are human suffering/death financial losses. I fail to see why wiping 1 million hard drives is necessarily qualitatively different from demolishing one building.

      Hard drives do not contain people that get burned to death, buried by rubble, or forced to jump 90 stories, you miserable little puke.

      --
      Just because a few of us can read write and do a little math, doesn't mean we deserve to conquer the universe
    3. Re:Terrorism: Blowing up buildings vs binaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but imagine wiping out an entire company by destroying every piece of data that they have. Where would that leave the employees and their families? Homeless?

    4. Re:Terrorism: Blowing up buildings vs binaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Last time I checked most worms do not wipe your hard drive, and none of them have the magical ability to leave the computer and wipe optical media.

      Ultimatly the act of distributing a worm is like running around slashing tires of cars; it's annoying, it costs money to replace, but you have a spare and the car is still in one pice, it just won't run.

      In computer terms most viri focuse on a speicif type of file- macro virii infect all your .doc files- which is annoying, but the rest of your file system remains intact; executabal virii infect all your .exe's which can cause your system to stop responding; but all your .doc's, .eml's, .dgn's etc are still intact and can be recovered from the system

  38. Punishment? by Darth+RadaR · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But even when writers are caught and brought to trial, the legal system often doesn't know what to do with them.

    Pah! I know what to do with them. Charge the writer of a virus/worm for time the Admin puts in to fix or block their poisoned program. If the virus/worm writer doesn't have the money, then the Admin will charge through violence to where one hit upside the virus/worm writer's skull with a 2"x4" will be exchangable to 15 minutes of the Admin's time that could have been better spent.

    Sorry to rant, but virus/worm copycats^Wwriters really get on my nerves, especially when I could be spending that time doing something with my friends, instead of telling sendmail to block out the latest "Melissa" clones.

    --
    /*drunk.. fix later*/
  39. Well. by mindstrm · · Score: 2

    Though I think those responsible for writing these need to share some responsibility, particulaly if they are the ones who released it, or if they wrote it intending to release it...

    I, personally, don't ever feel anger towards those who wrote these. 99% of them spread due to the sheer ignorance of the masses.

    Or rather, if someone in the company opens a virus attachment, and it spreads, I don't say 'damn virus'.. I get mad at the employee. There is NO EXCUSE for not understanding what to open.

  40. If you ask me, by mindstrm · · Score: 1, Redundant

    The idiots who *ran* the attachment and mailed you these 250kb files are the ones who should be paying for it.

    The kid who wrote sircam is just showing how stupid people are.

    1. Re:If you ask me, by Sly+Mongoose · · Score: 2
      The kid who wrote sircam is just showing how stupid people are.

      There are stupid people all over this world and they are allowed to be stupid.

      Replacing the candles on a birthday cake with sticks of dynamite is a dangerous and antisocial practice. Anyone who does this can not succesfully argue that the person who is at fault is the one who stupidly lit the fuses. It may be true that it is easy to tell the difference and only a fool would light the fuses, but that does not absolve the dynamiter.
    2. Re:If you ask me, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Protecting stupid people from themselves is a waste of brainpower which actually fruther the retardation of the human evolutionary process.

      However; you have to ask yourself- when looking at that train of thought: where do you draw the line; I'm not sure- but I'm pretty sure telling McDonnalds that there coffey was too hot and they had to pay a woman who was dumb enough to burn herself with it is too far.

      If you find a big metal tube in your backyard with a big red button on it and you push it, blowing yourself and your neighbors up, your patially at fault; pushing big red buttons without knowing what they do is something children do; now grown adults.

      Now; these kiddy scrip-virii makers should be prosecuted, but no more then how much they should be prosecuted for passing out a bunch of M100's as candels or party favors: they should be charged with mischift, and possibly proporty destruction; forced to do several hundred hours of demening comunity service and that's it.

      Some responsibility has to be given to the fools who use M100's as candels and end up loosing fingers.

  41. Bias. by dolo666 · · Score: 1

    I think that this article also sheds light on the adversarial system of criminal justice. Being that the justice system only thrives on crime, the only people who have the power to thwart crime are too biased to fully eliminate it. To supress crime is good for business, while to eliminate it would be catastrophic to the ecconomy (security, law, justice).

  42. Possible explanation by The+Pim · · Score: 2

    Why do worm writers stay free? Maybe they've accumulated enough hotel points on their credit cards.

    --

    The evaluation of an action as 'practical' . . . depends on what it is that one wishes to practice.
  43. Informed Authorities by evilviper · · Score: 2
    But their high profiles seemingly do not make virus writers easier to apprehend. Virtually
    all captured coders either confessed or were arrested only after techies discovered their
    identities and informed authorities.


    I don't know... Maybe it's just my imagination...

    Just seeing 'informed' and 'authorities' together just made me picture a Hippo and an Aligator dancing. Those two words just don;t go together well.

    --
    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  44. Time for a better metaphor by drew_kime · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "If someone left their front door unlocked ... " Gah, I am so sick of hearing that analogy every time someone talks about computer security. Phisical theft and defacement is not the same as digital. So what would be a better analogy?

    Imagine if someone went to a photographer and had some "personal" photos taken for their spouse. And that the photographer made poster-size prints and put them in the front window with a sign saying, "Please don't look at these."

    Would you prosecute the 13-year-old kid who came by and looked at them? How about if he took picutres of the posters and put them up on his web site? The originals are still "secure" in the studio's safe. How can you blame the photographer?

    If current computer law (UCITA, DMCA) were applied to this situation, the 13-year-old would be in jail and the photographer would be suing me for telling you that the posters were available.

    --
    Nope, no sig
    1. Re:Time for a better metaphor by ZigMonty · · Score: 2

      Imagine if someone went to a photographer and had some "personal" photos taken for their spouse. And that the photographer made poster-size prints and put them in the front window with a sign saying, "Please don't look at these."

      That is a very different situation. There is a difference between leaving something to be seen in a very public place and computer crime. The closer analogy to someone breaking into a computer is someone sneeking into a tree in someones backyard and looking through the partially open window and spying on them. Then again you'd probably think that it's their fault for leaving the blinds slightly open. An unprotected computer is not the same thing as a something intentionally made public.

    2. Re:Time for a better metaphor by Erik+Hollensbe · · Score: 1

      The point is, is that these security holes in windows software are both PUBLISHED, and in most cases, already PATCHED.

      Therefore the 'naked woman on the front door' analogy makes sense.

      Now if someone was using unorthodox/unpublished/unpatched methods to take over a computer system, I could understand.

      But note that Code Red, Nimda, etc, all take advantage of systems that had the ability to be protected.

      This is like having a having a lock on teh front door, but leaving it unlocked because you forgot to buy a key for it. There is nothing stopping you from securing the door, provided you spent a little time to go out and get a key.

    3. Re:Time for a better metaphor by Winged+Cat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, there is a relevant legal theory for this kind of insecurity. Take, for example, a swimming pool with no fence around it, in a neighborhood with lots of young kids. The pool tempts some kids to try to swim - but, for those who don't know how to swim, it can drown them. The legalese name is "attractive nuisance", and the owner of the pool can be held criminally negligent for not putting up even minimal security (say, a solid wood fence to obscure the pool from public view, or a chain link fence with a locked gate that at least prevents kids from getting at it without nontrivial effort).

      Now imagine if, instead of being posted in the windows, the photos were in a drawer with a big-lettered sign - big enough to be readable from the street, through the open door the sign faces - that says "Nude pix! Do not open!". I suspect the same legal theory could apply, especially if the kid were to sustain any injury as a result. (The way the world is going, forever destroying one's ability to blindly trust big institutions might almost count as "injury". ^_-)

      I know this applies in California, USA, at the least; does anyone know if it applies elsewhere?

    4. Re:Time for a better metaphor by liquidsin · · Score: 1

      I don't agree with your metaphor, but I do agree that we need a new one. When it comes to something like a virus, everyone goes for the "well if you left your house unlocked and someone robs you, it's your fault" but when it has to do with software/mp3s/dv/whatever the tune changes to "well it's digital, so it's not stealing". Theft is theft. Damage is damage. Whether the damage I do is breaking a window or crashing a server, the real world (think outside of the internet, people) has expenses that are paid with real money. Even if the damage is only to bits and bytes, someone has to pay the geek to fix it.

      --
      do not read this line twice.
  45. Monkey Balls Anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    Slashdot definitely sucks monkey testicles lately.

    A new release of WindowMaker??!?! Wowwy Zowie! Who fuckin' cares?!?!?! IT SUCKS!

    Some companies don't care about Web defacement!!!! What a fuckin' news flash! Unless it's your own company, who gives a flyin' cow shit? And if it is your own company, and your site sucks, maybe it'll get people to visit the fuckin' pit.

    The commercialization of the Internet??!?! Fuckin' christ! When did that happen?! Holy shit, this is news to me! I could have sworn it happened about ten fuckin' years ago shortly after the birth of the WWW, but what the fuck do I know?!

    No more sweaty mouse hands?!?!?! Cool! Just when I thought that I was a complete fuckin' degenerate playing games 'til my hands sweat and cramp, when I should be working or something, now I know that others share my problem, and life seem so much fucking better now.

    thank you.

  46. Misplaced blame by ryanvm · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I really liked the analogy a previous poster in a different thread had come up with:

    Virus/worm authors are like cockroaches. Sure it sucks to have to deal with them, but it's your own damn fault. And prosecuting is pointless - there's a million more where the last one came from.

    Most current viruses are NOT very sophisticated. They exploit wide-open security holes in unpatched operating systems that were produced by careless vendors. It's like getting pissed at people walking into your house at all hours of the night. Yes, they shouldn't be doing it - but if you were locking your doors it wouldn't be a problem.

    My point is that the blame should not fall entirely on the virus/worm authors. It should be evenly distributed between the vendor (for being negligent with regard to security); the system admin (for the same); and the virus author.

    1. Re:Misplaced blame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With all due respect,

      Bullshit.

      As a system admin, I spend _WAY_ too much time trying to keep my "doors locked", time which could otherwise be used in a productive manner.

      Admins are constantly "running in place" just to try to keep these assholes (and their ViralBasic (tm) toxins) out of our systems.

      When it becomes almost a full time job to keep ahead of these spuds, enough is enough.

      String 'em up by their (insert creative body part here).

    2. Re:Misplaced blame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > With all due respect,
      Bullshit.
      As a system admin, I spend _WAY_ too much time trying to keep my "doors locked", time which could otherwise be used in a productive manner.
      Admins are constantly "running in place" just to try to keep these assholes (and their ViralBasic (tm) toxins) out of our systems.
      When it becomes almost a full time job to keep ahead of these spuds, enough is enough.

      You've just stated a very good argument why you're running the wrong OS if it's continually vulnerable to ViralBasic problems. Non-MS OSs don't have these problems on a regulary recurring basis. Perhaps an upgrade is in order?...

    3. Re:Misplaced blame by Kirruth · · Score: 1
      You know, the thing about all this is that in many cases, the victim actually isn't much to blame.

      Consider a guy who wants to get on the net, let's call him Harry Homeowner (a la the Reg). He could be somebody's dad, their uncle. Harry goes out and gets himself a Windows PC, gets a broadband account, and hooks it up. He thinks it'd be kewl to put a few photos up on the Net, and so he does. Harry is proud of himself - he's king of the world! Checkout Mr. & Mrs. Homeowners family website!

      Nobody tells him he's got to download patches (it doesn't say on the Windows box, "Caution: download 500Mb of files to patch this useless pile of..."). He's lived his whole life never hearing about Microsoft's security problems (big old marketing budget sorted that out). His broadband ISP never tell him about firewalls, or in some cases actively discourage them to reduce support calls. Either way, there's no filtering going on at their end. Regardless, Harry just thinks "hey, I'm too small to be a hackers target" and "Microsoft probably know what they are doing".

      How long is it before Harry Homeowner's machine is owned by a worm? Ten minutes? How long til some lee7 kiddie is using it for warez? A week?

      He was feeling so cool, and you know what? He was cool. He was just doing what all of us were doing five or six years ago, only back then there were fewer low-lifes around. He made the assumption that the software he was using and his ISP were good enough for the job he wanted to do. He'd have got the hang of stuff soon enough...he just wasn't given the chance. He'll get the PC working again and get a clue, but it won't ever be as much fun for him.

      That's why these worms and script kiddies and lame corporate excuses suck. You, me and the rest of the people reading this thread can look after ourselves, but the n00bs should at least get an even break.

      --
      "Well, put a stake in my heart and drag me into sunlight."
    4. Re:Misplaced blame by shimpei · · Score: 1

      If virus writers are like cockroaches, why aren't we allowed to hit them with newspapers and spray RAID on them until they're dead whenever we find one? I'm sure a lot of sysadmins would love to do just that.

  47. I have never once... by mkmiller · · Score: 0

    got a virus or worm at work or at home. Sure, I have cleaned many a virii off of my users machines. My point is that most people who get infected are morons. They just click on anything in their inbox and happily send it along. The people who write the worms and virii (and let them out) are just taking advantage of the collective stupidity (when it comes to computers) of your average person. If people didn't take advantage of stupidity, do you think we would ever elect a government offical in the US?

    1. Re:I have never once... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      got a virus or worm at work or at home. Sure, I have cleaned many a virii off of my users machines. My point is that most people who get infected are morons. They just click on anything in their inbox and happily send it along. The people who write the worms and virii (and let them out) are just taking advantage of the collective stupidity (when it comes to computers) of your average person. If people didn't take advantage of stupidity, do you think we would ever elect a government offical in the US?

      Yeah, and just because only idiots (and the unborn children of idiots) get AIDS, then it isn't the problems of smart folks like us! Except, of course, that it all comes back to us in the form of health care costs, public assistance, general decline in productivity, etc., etc.

      The fact that having knowledge and taking precautions can prevent every one of these attacks does NOT excuse the attackers. Don't blame the victim. Educate potential victims, and treat anti-social predators like predators.

    2. Re:I have never once... by mkmiller · · Score: 0

      You can't compare AIDS to a computer virus. Last time I checked, AIDS has killed a LOT of people and I have yet to hear about a computer virus killing anyone. I don't support these people, but I think that there are a lot more important things in life to worry about.
      Educate potential victims, and treat anti-social predators like predators.
      Come on. If these people wanted to be educated they would. That is why Symantec and Mcafee make millions selling their software. And I don't think you can call some stupid kid hacking a worm, a predator. Idiot maybe, but not predator.

  48. Bad Examples by overunderunderdone · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Economic damages, bandwidth loss, destroyed data, and wasted time are harder for a cop to take seriously than, for instance, a body on the ground... It is an interesting thought experiment to consider what will happen when a teenager playing in an advanced biology course cultures a virulent bacteria or virus.

    I'm all for considering computer crimes as "real" crimes. The damages you mention are real, the crime is real. The motivation whether it's greed, political activism, or just being a "prankster" is irrelevant. Such attacks on computer systems and networks can do enormous economic damage and should be treated as serious crimes.

    But you undermine the argument by overstating it and picking examples of even more serious crimes to compare them to. A cop takes a body on the ground more seriously than economic damage, bandwidth loss, destroyed data and lost time because it IS much much more serious. A microbiology student infecting people with a real virus would be a far more serious crime than even the most damaging computer virus.

    ...Or consider if "goner" had been tracked to the other side of the tanks... to a group a Palestinians.

    That is a very interesting thought experiment. I'm a little torn on this since in general I think the act is what should be considered illegal not the motivation behind it. The "not guilty by reason of sincerity" defense (if we approve of your cause) as well as "EXTRA guilty by reason of sincerity" (if we don't approve of your cause) are abhorant to me. They raise the specter of state sanctioned lawlessness and "thought crimes" - It is a mix I associate with tyranny, think of the mutually reinforcing state sponsored lawlessness of kristalnacht and the totalitarian state control of everything else.

    On the other hand being blind to considerations of motivation and association could be taken too far. Society, if only to protect itself must take them into account. A lone hacker causing massive economic damage as a prank is a different kind of *threat* than an ideologically driven organization with a stated goal of destroying the society - even if the *crime* is identical. The organization is treated more seriously not because the crime is more serious but because the threat is more serious.

    1. Re:Bad Examples by jjsaul · · Score: 1

      But you undermine the argument by overstating it and picking examples of even more serious crimes to compare them to. A cop takes a body on the ground more seriously than economic damage, bandwidth loss, destroyed data and lost time because it IS much much more serious. A microbiology student infecting people with a real virus would be a far more serious crime than even the most damaging computer virus.


      I didn't mean to imply that computer sabotage is more serious that those crimes - quite the opposite. There is no serious choice between murder and computer crime (where those two don't overlap, yet) for an individual officer's resources.

      On the other hand being blind to considerations of motivation and association could be taken too far. Society, if only to protect itself must take them into account.

      Absolutely! It is critical to understand the 4 primary rationales for criminal punishment - retaliation/retribution, rehabilitation, general deterrence, and specific deterrence. In taking into account the mental state of the actor given any criminal act, we can better tailor the punishment to serve these ends. We can also better judge the probability of recidivism. So of course motivation makes a difference.

      It isn't that the thought is the crime, it is what the motive says about whether an individual is likely to recommit the same crime.

  49. Are you crazy? by ZigMonty · · Score: 2
    I don't blame the enemy. Building a large metal cylinder, no matter how complex or unusual, is not a crime. Building a truck or a building that blows up or does really weird things when they encounter shells from said metal cylinder ... that's questionable.

    See how stupid it sounds when you give it a real world analogy? This is the same logic that says that if your house is unlocked then it's legal to rob it. If people were made to defend themselves from every threat then there'd be no need for police or defence forces. The sad thing is that some people believe this "Well, they were vulnerable, they were asking for it. They should have been more careful! Not my fault."

    Now, I agree that Microsoft needs to focus more strongly on security but people who write malicous code are still criminals, not terrorists but still criminals.

  50. We need to define the crime a worm writer commits by Philbert+Desenex · · Score: 3, Insightful

    First, the "WiReD" article confuses worm - a program or process that propagates itself to a different computer, usually via some networking protocol, and chainmail - an email message that requires human intervention to automatically send out more email messages, usually containing the same or slightly evolved chainmail. WiReD should straighten up its vocabulary on this issue, they do no service to anyone confusing the two.

    Second, the techniques used by both chainmail and worms are all used by legitimate scripts, programs and emails. How does law enforcement propose to declare one email message a crime, and another legitimate? And I don't mean "Let's ask some expert like Graham Cluely."

    Sure an IIS worm like Code Red usually uses some initial exploit, like overflowing a buffer in an IIS module or service or plug-in or whatever the MSFT lingo is, but Nimda used a variety of techniques built in to IIS, "shares" and Outlook. The variety of Outlook worms (Anna Kournikova, Nude Housewife, etc etc) and even the CHRISTMA EXE chainmail of 1987 used entirely legitimate techniques built in to Outlook and other email viewers. The 1988 Internet Worm used both legitimate techniques (BSD "r" commands that didn't require a password) and exploits like "fingerd" buffer overflows. How do we define the crime - "I didn't authorize this use of Outlook" really doesn't amount to a way to decide whether or not a particular program committed a crime. Similary, worms like x.c get telnet servers to crash in particular ways when they spread. Gee whiz, a network server process crashes! That's news, for sure. I guess that hasn't happened to me since yesterday. How do we make one instance of a crashed program a crime, and another instance into a bug report?

  51. Prejudice Galore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    SirCam contains this text in its code: "SirCam Version 1.0 Copyright 2001 2rP Made in / Hecho en - Cuitzeo, Michoacan Mexico." Smith has a hunch that the author of SirCam is or was in Cuitzeo, and is probably a student.

    These guys are completely prejudist against College students. Forget the fact that it's most often college students that commit these crimes, and therefore reasonable to suspect college students over other people.

    Hey, if Blacks and Mexicans can use that crap as a legal defense, surely geeks could squirm out of legal action on that same basis.

  52. About the bandwith... by SevenTowers · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Does anybody have any figures? how much bandwith is used up during a worm attack such as nimbda?

    --
    Imperium et libertas
    Autocracy and freedom
    1. Re:About the bandwith... by ellem · · Score: 3, Funny

      how much bandwith is used up during a worm attack such as nimbda

      7

      --
      This .sig is fake but accurate.
    2. Re:About the bandwith... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The bandwidth really wasn't the issue with Nimda.

      Being a internet security professional and dealing with firewalls let me tell you what the problem is.

      With stateful inspection you have a finite amount of host to host relations you can make, based on the amount of memory you have availible (or any softlimits involved).

      In the case of no stateful inspection you still have NAT maps, which again have finite number, nimda had the ability to send out many requests a second, get a few computers doing this and you're screwed ;).

      You use up this max amount of connections then your firewall will no longer forward packets.

      Having to battle nimda, I can tell you, once this problem is solved (rejecting all http/tftp traffic from infected computers) connection tables start freeing up, bandwidth utilization on the LAN is still high but can be countered, and work can now be done.

      It's funny that worms and hacks keep us in business, at least the idea of them do. So, I guess I'm guilty of bias on this topic ;).

  53. Let's define "terrorist," shall we? by tswinzig · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "We need to catch them, and place them in a position whereby they are seen for what they are -- a terrorist," Cooper said.

    Since some people are confused, let's look it up in the dictionary.

    terrorist
    n. One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism.

    terrorism
    n. The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.


    Now, I do agree that a skilled person could use computer viruses for the purposes of terrorism, as defined above. But clearly 99% of viruses do not fall into the category of terrorism, and therefore calling their creators terrorists is quite a stretch. Most of them are smart young people with no common sense, no direction, and a distorted sense of right and wrong ... a.k.a. criminals.

    I'm sure Russ Cooper is more interested in getting his site linked from wired, and knows mentioning the buzzword 'terrorist' is sure to get a soundbyte.
    --

    "And like that ... he's gone."
    1. Re:Let's define "terrorist," shall we? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We need to catch them, and place them in a position whereby they are seen for what they are -- a terrorist," Cooper said.

      I predict the term "terrorist" will be thrown around by such idiots the same way "communist" was thrown around after WWII.

    2. Re:Let's define "terrorist," shall we? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shut up, pinko.

  54. Goatce.sx Blocking post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic
    .

    echo "goatse.cx" >> sblock.ini

    Today's JunkBuster tip.

  55. Terrorist no longer means anything... by Ami+Ganguli · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Over the last few months the word "terrorist" has lost all meaning. I also heard the other day that child pornographers were being called terrorists. And of course the Isrealis, Palestinians, and Americans are terrorists, depending on who you ask. I'm sure the people who set fires around Sydney were terrorists too. Nowadays a terrorist is anybody you don't like.

    The old definition of terrorist was somebody who used terror as a tool to some political ends. Basically, if you can't defeat your enemy in a head-on attack, you choose an easy target calculated to demoralize the enemy.

    It's too bad, because 'terrorist' really was a useful word. Now that it's being used so broadly there's no concise way to talk about 'classic' terrorists.

    --
    It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
    1. Re:Terrorist no longer means anything... by fredklein · · Score: 1

      Over the last few months the word "terrorist" has lost all meaning.
      ...
      It's too bad, because 'terrorist' really was a useful word. Now that it's being used so broadly there's no concise way to talk about 'classic' terrorists.

      Kind of like 'hacker' changed in meaning, from 'enthusiast' to 'evil-doer'.

    2. Re:Terrorist no longer means anything... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Kind of like 'hacker' changed in meaning, from 'enthusiast' to 'evil-doer'.

      No, 'terrorist' did not 'lose' any meaning in the real sense, a terrorist is still a terrorist. The word just got diluted.

      Hacker on the other hand, changed meanings, or rather became much narrower in meaning. Used to mean one who did things for fun and profit, good or evil, etc, etc, and now just means one who does damage with things. Terroist is becoming more broad in meaning, hacker more specific.

    3. Re:Terrorist no longer means anything... by cburley · · Score: 1
      Over the last few months the word "terrorist" has lost all meaning.

      Agreed, the word has been abused by linguistic pirates.

      Reminds me of Bernard Lewinsky's complaint that his daughter Monica's behavior shouldn't lead to people referring to a certain intimate act as a "Lewinsky". I think he pointed out that hijacking a family name based on one infamous incident would be just another form of McCarthyism, or something....

      (This post brought to you by PFTETOWLAPAH -- People For The Ethical Treatment Of Words Like "Abuse", "Pirate", and "Hijack". ;-)

      --
      Practice random senselessness and act kind of beautiful.
  56. This is the way I learned comuters! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I know there are others out there

    when I started out, i'd download those toolz
    then I tried to figure out how they work...
    before long I was writing those goofy chat nukes
    and yes some viri....but after that I had some knowladge of programming and moved on to more constructive things like game cheaters. Now i'm a programmer.
    kids will be kids If you don't want them doing bad stuff, then go after the parents
    parents just dont talk to kids anymore
    insted of blaming computers or movies or whatever
    try taking some resposability on your own
    I mean heck they are YOUR kids.
    don't look for anyone else to keep them in line when you don't yourself!

    1. Re:This is the way I learned comuters! by JWhitlock · · Score: 1
      You sir, are absolutely right. Parents should take computers away from their kids, and replace them with quality time, such as board games and jigsaw puzzles, which allow for conversations.

      Kids don't really need all that power, and just get themselves into trouble. If you HAVE to have a computer, get WebTV, or something like that, so you can compute as a family.

    2. Re:This is the way I learned comuters! by Restil · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Somewhat off topic...

      But a few months ago, a system I maintained got hit by a cracker. Completely my fault, had a rather obvious security hole. So, I shrugged my shoulders and went about the task of reloading the system. Only I didn't patch up the new load right away, and he got back in, playing exactly the same games. Removing log files and setting up irc bouncers. Sure, I could have spent another hour and done a reload correctly at this point, but I decided to play with this guy for a while. Since the machine wasn't vital to any operations, I simply quarantined it on its own network, and set another system on that network strand to sniff all data going to and from the telnet and ftp ports.

      Then I let the guy have fun. I'd hate to make assumptions as to his age, because I never did find out exactly, but judging by his rather brazen messages I'd place him in the sub-20 crowd. So after obtaining logs from more than five ip addresses from an ISP, I called the ISP and after they figured out which customer of theirs it was, I had them call the customer and mention that I'd be pressing charges if it didn't stop. It stopped. Completely. Never even tried again.

      Now, I know as well as most poeple, that even if law enforcment even paid attention to me, it probably wouldn't go anywhere. I figure it was probably the parents of that kid that got the phone call from the ISP and while they may not be completely aware of what their son was doing, they were pretty damn well aware of what the scare word "hacker" meant and probably started to monitor the activities of their son a little more closely, as they realize they'd be legally liable if someone actually DID press charges.

      I'm sure this cocky guy didn't stop of his own free will just because he realized someone was on to him. He knew I was on to him before that and was making quite a scene when he thought he had thwarted my sneaky logging techniques (he wasn't aware of the sniffing). If he was smart he would have stopped then, but no, he kept on trudging. But a single phone call stopped him.

      I almost have to assume it was the parents.

      -Restil

      --
      Play with my webcams and lights here
    3. Re:This is the way I learned comuters! by pclminion · · Score: 2
      This is terribly OT, but I'm hung-over, in a bad mood, and I think you're hilarious, so here goes:

      You've learned about computers completely backwards. You downloaded "toolz," then wrote "nukes" and "game cheaters" and you somehow think this qualifies you as a "programmer?" You're kidding yourself.

      Don't you realize that you'll be slaving in some code-shop for the rest of your life? Don't you ever want to do anything exciting? Why not go to school and do the work and actually get a clue about what is going on with computers.

      Do you know what a red-black tree is? How about a context-free grammar? What is Chomsky normal form? For that matter what is conjunctive normal form? Can you describe the LALR algorithm? How about operator precedence parsing? What is the difference between a synthetic attribute and in inherited attribute? What does TLB stand for, and what does it do? What is the meaning of the term "re-entrant?" Why would a fully re-entrant Linux kernel kick ass? What would be difficult about doing it? What is the meaning of the term "cryptographically secure hash?" Describe alpha-beta game-tree pruning. How about STRIPS planning? Go and implement a backprop neural network with weight decay and momentum. Tell me the time-complexity of the last algorithm you wrote. And finally, what does it mean for a problem to be NP-complete?

      Look, this is not Ancient Lore known only to the oldest and wisest code-wizards. This is stuff that every CS graduate, even from the crappiest school in the country, knows. Without this sort of knowledge you'll just be another code-monkey.

    4. Re:This is the way I learned comuters! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are plenty of programmers making a comfortable living without a CS degree. There are also plenty of CS graduates flipping burgers.

    5. Re:This is the way I learned comuters! by kisrael · · Score: 2

      A lot of CS graduates might have known this, but most have forgotten. A lot of us are "code-monkeys", but there's good code-monkeys (doing design as well as development) and bad code-monkeys (just doing grunt work to spec)

      A lot of the stuff you've mentioned is pretty dang academic, and only comes in piecemeal to day to day applications, if at all.

      --
      SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
    6. Re:This is the way I learned comuters! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True I may be a code monkey with no formal schooling.

      But $60hr 40hrs a week isn't too shabby

      shure if I went to school I could make more
      but I'm content where I am

    7. Re:This is the way I learned comuters! by RollingThunder · · Score: 2

      And despite all these terms, algos, theories, etc, most of them still can't write their way out of a wet paper bag without creating buffer overflows and other gaping security exploits (or contribute to the Interface Hall of Shame).

      Book learning is just as equal as practical learning. Neither alone makes a good programmer. One just speaks oddly, and the other speaks ... differently oddly. :)

    8. Re:This is the way I learned comuters! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly,

      It just depends on the individual and the amount of time spent learning.

      Everything takes practice to be great.

      I personaly learn better at home toying with something till i learn it sometime i need to pick-up a book but the main point of mine is
      that you can go to school and learn from profs to get that cert to prove you know your stuff
      In my case I can prove that without a piece of paper....

  57. Why? For the bragging by Dead+Penis+Bird · · Score: -1

    Spreading viruses is almost like the grafitti artists spray painting subway cars. (I'm from NYC...) Artists used the graffiti itself as bragging then often bragged about it afterward as well.

    It's not terrorism; they do it mostly for the notoriety.

    --

    If I weren't nailed to the penis, I'd be pushing up the daisies!

  58. Blaming the Victim by Greyfox · · Score: 2
    Yes it sounds like blaming the victim, but there is a subtle difference that makes the unlocked house analogy a bad one.

    In the case of laying some responsibility at the feet of the OS writer and the System Administrators, in the first case it is their job to make sure that their product is reasonably secure. In the second case it is part of their job to keep up with the security patches and make sure that the corporate systems are reasonably secure.

    In the case of the people who wrote the OS or software that gets compromised again and again, a better analogy might be to compare them to a bunch of builders who build houses with no locks or faulty locks that fail to keep people out.

    In the second case, you might compare the system administrator to someone who bought the house and then didn't take any action when the lock recall went out (or he didn't install it becase installing the new lock makes the toilet stop flushing...) In many cases he does this even though he lives in a hood known for its high level of break-ins and robberies.

    When it's your job to make sure the company's network is reasonably secure and the same attacks against holes that were announced months ago work again and again to compromise that security, I'd say you're not doing your job very well. Excuses may be made, like "The fix breaks 14 other things" or "We didn't have time to test it on all the company platforms." In the first case I'd say the vendor is at fault and if they can't fix the problem to your satisfaction maybe you should consider a new vendor. In the second case, I might want to send some blame the way of the CIO/CEO as the department is obviously underfunded or the corporate infrastructure is badly designed.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  59. Re:Trivial? What will happen with a "real" virus? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I think all we need to do is make it so the next worm spreads copyrighted material, or runs a p2p music/warez-sharing client.. do that, and the FBI will be all over it, after a quick nudge from their high-paying clients in the entertainment industry..

    The sad thing is, i'm joking but probably right. How hard would it be to write a virus that quietly rips to mp3 in the background all the audio CDs placed in the computer, then makes those mp3s available, along with all stand-alone programs on the computer, on Gnutella..? (No, not very subtle, but then neither is replacing index.html with HACKED BY CHINESE WORM, and we all know what a good job people did of noticing they were infected with code red.. i still get about six to ten code red 2 attempts on my mac os x box every day..)

    See, you just have to figure out what law enforcement officers like to attack, and pander to that. I'm pertty sure if a worm in some way was productive for the trafficking of mp3 or drugs, they'd be all over it immediately, yelling about "computer terrorism"..

  60. Nice Title by KPU · · Score: 1

    I thought this was going to explain why worm makers use free software. Otherwise, they might get jailed for mass copyright violation.

  61. Refer to previous article by MrResistor · · Score: 2
    Just a hunch, but I think this is probably a related issue. If the Corps don't care about their servers being 0wn3d by 1337 h4x0rz, why should they care about them being owned by email virii and other worms? And if the victims of a crime don't care, why should law enforcement?

    One thing about Corps, they're generally consistent. Of course, that's generally, not always.

    --
    Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
  62. further analogies? by marick · · Score: 1

    I find it hard to believe that the photographer wouldn't be prosecuted for this IF it was against the consent of the person being photographed.

    On the other hand, if they signed an agreement saying it was ok to make all this stuff public, it's sort of like the license agreements people sign to run Microsoft Windows.

    Just to add to the confusion, there is, in some states (Massachusetts, I think), a lemon law, stating that EVEN IF you are told that an automobile sucks, if it dies, then the person who sold it to you is legally liable, and may be forced to refund your money.

  63. Your analogy is VERY WRONG by Carnage4Life · · Score: 2
    Imagine if someone went to a photographer and had some "personal" photos taken for their spouse. And that the photographer made poster-size prints and put them in the front window with a sign saying, "Please don't look at these."

    Would you prosecute the 13-year-old kid who came by and looked at them? How about if he took picutres of the posters and put them up on his web site? The originals are still "secure" in the studio's safe. How can you blame the photographer?

    Your analogy only makes sense if cracking a site requires a passive activity such as accidentally visiting a URL or attempting to connect via FTP. Unfortunately, most cracking involves active malicious intent by the perpetrators which doesn't jibe with your analogy.

    A better analogy would be if the photographer had the pictures in a drawer marked
    CONFIDENTIAL NUDE PICTURES! DO NOT OPEN.
    and some teenager felt that he/she couldn't resist looking at the pictures. The teenager is still in the wrong but one can also blame the photographer for not taking better precautions which means both parties are at fault which is the case in most cases of cracking websites.
  64. Re:Trivial? What will happen with a "real" virus? by user+flynn · · Score: 1

    Who do you think is sending the anthrax? Its a bunch of old school computer geeks who used to hang out on the illuminatus BBS from 88-92. Check the ficticious return address on the Tom Daschle letter (the only one of the first 4 letters with a return address). That return address is a direct reference to "teenagers from outers space" campaign that was hosted on the illuminatus BBS around that time period. There is no greendale elementary school, and the 4th grade is obviously and obfuscated reference to the 4th school that the campaigners were all from. Check this site out. Not to mention the fact that the illuminati trilogy mentions breaking the walls of the pentagon in order to free the demon trapped inside. I wonder how the campaign is going, and what the GM is gonna have the players do next for experience.

    --
    In the distance you hear an ominous moo.
  65. Time for a new brain by Invisible+Agent · · Score: 2

    Your new metaphor vapid on so many levels.

    You imply that digital data has no intrinsic worth, and therefore can't be stolen. What century are you living in? Future generations will view your analogy as hopelessly anachronistic, something like stories your grandpa tells today about one-room schoolhouses.

    And as for the substance of your analogy - "a guy takes nude pix of his wife and puts them up in his window with a sign saying don't look at these" - how does this utterly absurd statement clear things up for you better than the "if you leave your front door unlocked" one? Do you even know what your point is?

    --

    Invisible Agent
    This post is a mirror; when a monkey stares in, no hacker gazes out.
  66. This part is interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Forget that it may be problematic to extradite the individual, or that they may be young, or claim to be doing 'research.' We need to catch them, and place them in a position whereby they are seen for what they are -- a terrorist," Cooper said. "The cost to our businesses, not to mention our way of life, is simply too high to not pursue these individuals."


    To compare virus/worm writers (like the creator of Melissa) to terrorists (Osama bin Laden) is insane. I'm sorry but creating worldwide/widespread havoc on the internet is NOTHING compared to a bomb blowing up a building or killnig a few people.

  67. Illegal software by CaptainSuperBoy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I am of the belief that there is practically no piece of software that should be illegal. This includes viruses, worms, spamware and other software with no redeeming qualities. It's one of those slippery slope problems where you're banning certain types of speech, but it could easily get murky as to what was a worm or a virus. Some security software has just as much legitimate use as it has potential for misuse.

    The only rational solution, as is the case with other "banning the tool vs. banning the act" problems, is to ban the act of dissemminating virii or worms maliciously. Banning certain types of software is an ill-conceived notion, just like banning certain guns.

    Those who believe that software (in the US at least) is constitutionally protected speech may want to think twice if they believe virus writers should be prosecuted. Judging software based on its purpose is probably impossible - is deCSS a tool for piracy or for interoperability? Depending on who you ask, you will get 2 different answers. Is back orifice a security tool or a hacking tool? Is it a virus? Should the writers be prosecuted?

    Virus/worm software does have redeeming educational value, however little.. it's useful for exposing vulnerabilities, even if it only shows that the end user is stupid.

    So even though virii, worms, spamware etc. are a pain in the ass, I do support your right to create any type of software you like. The other alternative, banning classes of software, is actually more dangerous.

    Note this has nothing to do with my view on copyright. Of course if you infringe someone else's copyright in your software you are breaking the law.

    1. Re:Illegal software by caesar-auf-nihil · · Score: 2

      I can't agree with this. Banning a class of software does make sense, just as it makes sense banning something so dangerous it should not be open to those who don't know how to use it properly. Certain actions do not always classify as free speech, especially if they damage something.

      Is a computer program that one created to do something damaging really free speech? Okay, lets say they add a political message to the virus, which flashes the political message over and over on the computer screen. This isn't quite free speech - its vandalism. If I used spray paint to put my political views on the side of one's car to make a point - I'd get tried for vandalism and no free speech argument would protect me. For the virus, you've taken over someone's computer and temporarily vandalized it. The spraypaint on the car and the virus can both be removed, returning the item to original condition, but damage was still done.

      So lets take this further. Lets say I write a virus with a political message that "capitalism is evil" with a destructive payload that erases all the non-freeware programs. Now this virus makes its way to a water treatment plant, and screws up computer-operated water handling system. The erased program causes the pump to go to its defualt mode, which causes several hundred thousand gallons of sewage (read e-coli contaminated) to be forced into the clean water tank. Several people get sick and some elderly and children die. I've now used a tool, with no real benefit to others (except those who know how to use it to look for security holes) as my method of free speech. Should I be tried for terrorism or manslaughter? You bet! Whether or not this scenario could happen, it is possible, and therefore, it suggests that the tool should be banned, or at least restricted in access.

      Some tools are meant to be restricted for a reason, because when used improperly they can cause huge amounts of damage. Therefore we ban their use except to those authorized (and trustworthy) enough to use them. Certain biological techniques have been voluntarily banned due to their danger they could cause to humanity in general. I'm not talking about cloning, but some very complicated retrovirus techniques which created a cold virus that creates cancer. The Austrialian lab that created this realized what it had done, destroyed all the work, and asked the few other researchers to drop this line of research until controls could be put in place. The ban was accepted, and it makes perfect sense.

      Virus programs do nothing constructuve except find security holes. So it makes sense for computer security experts to use them in controlled settings, but to make them available to the public does not make sense.

      All that being said, the technology and know-how is already out there, so one can't put the genie back in the bottle in regards to viruses. However, we can ban their use in the public when damage is caused by them, provided we actually enforce the law. If we don't enforce it, then we shouldn't even bother passing the law.

      --
      -When going for broke, go for Ithaca!
    2. Re:Illegal software by Quack1701 · · Score: 1

      Your forgeting about the small aspect of theft of services. The "terrorist" is running his software on my machine without my permission. If I sell clock cycles, then he has stolen money from me. Also, if he damages data or erases harddrives, he has also caused me monitary damages. He may have a "right" to say what ever he wants, or even to write any piece of code he wants. However, the second he places any code on my machine, he has changed it from a political issue to a criminal issue.

    3. Re:Illegal software by linuxelf · · Score: 1

      I would still have to say that the software itself shouldn't be illegal. It's sort of like owning a tiger. I should be allowed to own a tiger, but if I let it get out, and it kills someone, I should be held responsible. Same with virus software. If I write it, and run it on my LAN to prove a security hole, that should be fine. If I allow it out of my posession, and someone turns it loose on the internet, I should be held responsible. That includes if someone hacks into my network, steals the virus and then turns it loose. I'm still responsible. Same as if someone sneaked into my back yard and set my tiger free.

      --
      - "That's just the kind of fuzzy-headed liberal thinking that leads to being eaten."
    4. Re:Illegal software by J.+J.+Ramsey · · Score: 1
      The only rational solution, as is the case with other "banning the tool vs. banning the act" problems, is to ban the act of dissemminating virii or worms maliciously.

      Those who believe that software (in the US at least) is constitutionally protected speech may want to think twice if they believe virus writers should be prosecuted.

      The thing is that most virus writers disseminate the viruses that they create, which would make them culpable by your standards.

      However, if say a university student was doing research on security by putting together a dummy network that was not connected to the outside world or any other campus networks and infecting that with a virus, prosecuting such a student for virus writing would be a miscarriage of justice, since it is clear that the virus was deliberately kept from doing real damage.

    5. Re:Illegal software by CaptainSuperBoy · · Score: 2

      I'm going to try to respond point by point.

      If I used spray paint to put my political views on the side of one's car to make a point - I'd get tried for vandalism and no free speech argument would protect me. For the virus, you've taken over someone's computer and temporarily vandalized it.

      This doesn't go against my philosophy - your act of vandalism has broken the law, irregardless of whatever message you've spray-painted. My act of infecting a university's servers with a destructive worm would be theft of service, regardless of which worm I used, or who wrote the worm. The act of writing the worm, by whoever did it, may or may not have been with malicious intent. Really, there's no objective way to tell or prove one way or another. Is it malicious of OS writers to make an OS with raw socket access? I don't think it's malicious to create a computer with open hardware standards, that can be programmed to do evil at the lowest level. At what point in the tool does the responsibility end?

      Lets say I write a virus with a political message that "capitalism is evil" with a destructive payload that erases all the non-freeware programs... it is possible, and therefore, it suggests that the tool should be banned, or at least restricted in access.

      You may have misunderstood my "software as speech" point. I wasn't talking about including political speech in software, or using software as a way to get attention - just that I and many others consider software code to be protected speech. This means it is afforded many protections under the constitution, including protection from being banned based on content. If I post the code to my virus onto my web site, nothing in the law should prevent me from doing that.

      Your point that potentially destructive software should be banned or restricted is a dangerous view. Are you in favor of export controls on encryption? I'm assuming you're here in the US, where controls have been relaxed but not yet eliminated due to the mistaken view that banning strong encryption will somehow empower intelligence and law enforcement agencies. This is exactly what I'm talking about - encryption is considered by most to be a necessity for security, and by some to be a national security risk. But above all, an encryption algorithm should be considered protected speech.

      Some tools are meant to be restricted for a reason, because when used improperly they can cause huge amounts of damage.

      I suspect we disagree on gun control, too. I won't get into that, except to say that I was once strongly in favor of radical gun control. I've now realized that the more legislation, and the more "banning" there is, the less responsible people become. We need people who feel responsible for their own actions, not laws. And that is a MUCH bigger debate, which goes to the root of our corporate society.

      Once I realized my hypocrisy in guns vs. encryption vs. virus/worm/spamware I came to see that it's really the same topic, and I am for the act, as opposed to the tool, being punished.

      Certain biological techniques have been voluntarily banned due to their danger they could cause to humanity in general.

      I don't think this is the case here. It would do more harm than good to prevent knowledge of security flaws, and demonstrations of them, from disseminating. If people feared for their freedom, they wouldn't expose security holes. As we've seen recently, when companies aren't FORCED to issue patches they tend to ignore gaping holes in their software.

      Voluntarily is also the key word here. It's usually a good thing when the scientific community voluntarily decides to drop something, and we do need to see more of this. Human cloning and bio-weapon research are two areas that could use more scientists who actually thought about ethics. Is banning whole classes of scientific research the best way to progress, though? The church also banned research when it felt threatened..

      Virus programs do nothing constructuve except find security holes. So it makes sense for computer security experts to use them in controlled settings, but to make them available to the public does not make sense.

      However, the ONLY way to get companies to respond is exactly what you said - full disclosure is the only way to go. Security by obscurity (what you describe) keeps knowledge of flaws in the hands of the few, who have enough resources to find them (e.g. the NSA, companies, and yes, you can't rule out terrorists).

      However, we can ban their use in the public when damage is caused by them

      Well that is exactly what I support! Maybe we don't disagree as much as I thought..

    6. Re:Illegal software by CaptainSuperBoy · · Score: 2

      Fully, totally, 100% agreed. Please re-read my post. As soon as I step foot in your system, I'm doing something wrong. I still don't think that the act of writing malicious software, even if it is used by someone else to do damage, could be considered illegal or negligent somehow.

    7. Re:Illegal software by CaptainSuperBoy · · Score: 2

      Posting virus code to my home page, whether academic or not, isn't and shouldn't be illegal. Possession definitely shouldn't be. Compiling that virus and sending it to other people, with malicious intent probably should be illegal.. those are my standards for culpability.

      Note I'm not saying anything about your provider's TOS, or any community effort to silence you (as is the case with spamware). I fully support RBL's inclusion of spamware vendors on the list, however much they may cry "but free speech! free speech!" Your provider is also within their rights to boot you for posting viruses.

    8. Re:Illegal software by Issue9mm · · Score: 2

      Honestly, I don't even agree with that. The way I view it, it's my job to keep your junk out of my system. If I open up a virus, I blame myself, not the programmer. If I leave ports open for attack, I blame myself, not the programmer.

      Of course, this is just my personal opinion, but I think that if the users in this (or any other) country had to be responsible for themselves, we'd start to see a decline in the Microsoft monopoly, after awhile, and a rise in more secure operating systems.

      -9mm-

  68. Re:No money in catching them. (doesn't matter) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To protect their interests, "anti"-virus companies will probably start writing their own viruses and releasing them...if they don't do that already.............

  69. If you don't call everyone a terrorist.... by MadAhab · · Score: 3, Funny
    ... then the terrorists have already won.

    D'oh.

    --
    Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
  70. worms waste bandwidth? what about packet kiddies? by mkbz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    CmdrTaco writes:

    The bandwidth wasted by a successful worm is gigantic. To say nothing of time and disk space.

    if you've ever been on the receiving end of a round-the-clock DDoS attack from irc packet kiddies, you know about wasted bandwidth. worms seem to be a mere drop on the bucket.

    the only difference is - worms are indiscriminant; they walk their way thru IP blocks no matter who owns them. so big ISPs get their panties in a bunch and can use their muscle to bargain for the FBI's time. irc revenge DDoS is usually directed towards EFNet servers at the handful of ISPs who are brave enough to still be operating one.

    but, these two issues are related. the machines infected with the worms (which expose massive exploits) are usually taken over as zombies for nefarious bidding (such as the aforementioned DDoS).

    perhaps then we can roll in responsibility for the DDoS to the charges against the worm writers? then the cost of bandwidth soars astronomically and can probably justify more significant prosecution. (and hey, maybe get a little bit of 'official' attention to this problem (DDoS) that's been going on for years).

    --
    www.pixelectric.com
  71. I must speak up by evilviper · · Score: 2

    That sig may compare Gates to Hitler, but only in ideaology. It doesn't say Bill should be treated like a war criminal. Indeed, there are many people that think like Hitler, but they havn't acted on the urge to go kill thousands of people.

    I happen to like a web page that compares Margret Sanger's ideaology with the Aryan ideology. It doesn't say she should be(have been) hanged for crimes against humanity (because she didn't personally commit any).

    --
    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    1. Re:I must speak up by sparkz · · Score: 1

      Your sig:

      "I'm not going to fire a $2 million missile at a $10 empty tent and hit a camel in the butt." -George Bush, 9/2001

      Just wondered if you had a source for that - I love the quote!

      Steve.

      --
      Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
    2. Re:I must speak up by Eric+Cox · · Score: 1

      "I'm not going to fire a $2 million missile at a $10 empty tent and hit a camel in the butt." -George Bush, 9/2001

      Just wondered if you had a source for that - I love the quote!

      ---- Check the big network news and newspapers. I was all over the major news sources the day he said it - I saw it on all three big networks.

      I laughed for about a hour over that one...

      Eric

  72. going after by www.sorehands.com · · Score: 2
    You can't go after the manufacturer.


    If you read their click-wrap agreement, it says:

    You can't do anything to us no matter what. Even if we knew that the program would melt your machine, tough!

    When I contacted AMI about the Y2K problem on a 1993 motherboard, they told me there waas no bios update, but they would be willing to sell me a clock card.

    --
    Fight Spammers!
    1. Re:going after by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um.. spend the $2 and get a newer motherboard? There is a reason why hardware gets discontinued.

    2. Re:going after by Computer! · · Score: 2

      You can't do anything to us no matter what. Even if we knew that the program would melt your machine, tough!

      Sniff! Smells familiar...

      --
      If you fall off a building, go real limp, because maybe you'll look like a dummy and people will be like hey, free dummy
  73. I'll take this advice... by TrixX · · Score: 2

    ...and the next Internet worm I write will have the following string "Made by JonKatz, Bill Gates, and George Bush".

    Strings inside code could be used as evidence, but they are not very serious evidence, not more serious than a papernote left by a burglar saying "I wasn't!". After all, we don't want incrimination to be that easy.

  74. Why do worm writers stay free? by Krimsen · · Score: 2, Funny

    Why do worm writers stay free?

    Would that be free as in beer or Free as in speech?

  75. I wish I wish (A Little Off-Topic) by gnovos · · Score: 1

    I wish virus/worm writers would write viruses that make statements rathar than viruses that just blunder around and piss people off. A "port-scan" worm would be great (one that, after it's done worming it's way into a network, it starts portscanning random IPs. It wouldn't do anything, but since port scanning is illegal, it would provide a nice cover for anyone who happened to get caught for doing it "for real"... "No sir, I wasn't port-scanning, I just caught a virus!") or even better a simple child-porn worm (You can go to jail for having anything that resembles "child-porn", even if the actors are above 18, even if it was faked, even if it's anime, and even if you *didn't know it was on your computer*, no questions asked...) and, of course, the "Terrorism" worm, that writes nasty letters to the gobment...

    --
    "Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
  76. that's a real problem, I got a solution by Erris · · Score: 1
    Worried about virus and worm propagation? Just tell your clients that you do not support insecure OS and bandwith abusers will be terminated. No Mo M$. Easy, isn't it?

    Think of all the other problems you will get rid of. Bloated M$ formats that contain no no real information, you know, 12MB Power Point presentations, 2MB Word wastes and other usless stuff that takes 10 times as much space as needed. Inane calls over BSoD. Unintended video streams. Warez trolls and robots, and all sorts of other evil stuff fostered by comercial software.

    You would do us all a favor by not catering to M$ users and the people who abuse them. Untill you do, you are just another piece of the problem. You should insist that your cracked clients take reasonable and free steps to solve their problems.

    --
    DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
  77. You made the exact mistake I'm pointing out by drew_kime · · Score: 2

    You imply that digital data has no intrinsic worth, and therefore can't be stolen.

    This is exactly the mindset I was criticizing. I didn't say or imply that digital data has no intrinsic worth. I said that its worth had to be calculated differently from the worth of phsical goods.

    Theft of physical goods deprives the rightful owner of their use. Copying of digital goods does not deprive anyone of their use, but in fact greatly increases the number of people who may potentially use them. This could, of course, possibly reduce the value of the digital goods. Certain information is only valuable when it is not widely known. This is why Digital Rights Managment is so important to the RIAA and MPAA.

    The point of the analogy, since you seem to have missed it, is that the customer pays someone for a product, and the provider doesn't take steps to ensure that the product is secure. The fact that EULA's have not been tested in court is the only reason software producers continue to believe this is acceptable.

    --
    Nope, no sig
  78. Flamebait? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Geez, someone's got chocolate salty balls today. what the hell did he say that was flamebait?!?!

    1. Re:Flamebait? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

      Get it right. It should read thusly:

      "Geez, someone's got salty donkey balls today. what the hell did he say that was flamebait?!?!"

      Salty donkey balls is a lot funnier! I would imagine a donkeys balls to be salty!

    2. Re:Flamebait? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am sorry, I will flog myself until I attain the true spirit of Troll. I apologize, Trollmaster.

  79. Unwatched business by Casca · · Score: 1

    Many computer systems, and even networks could be compared to a business with nobody home. I wonder how much sympathy a company would get from the courts if everyone went on vacation for a couple of weeks, and left the lights on and the doors open.

    What would happen if I bought a house, furnished it, paid the utilities, and then just let it sit. Maybe I would even come by every few months and add some stuff to it, a new fridge, new stove, another TV, and so on.

    Could I expect the guy that gets caught living there for free to go to jail after a couple of years of the place being open to whoever had the inclination to walk throught the wide-open front door? Or whoever decided to relocate my TV to their living room... Would it matter if I had a little sign on the front yard that said "no trespassing"?

    --
    Casca
  80. Reasons by Lumpy · · Score: 2

    First off, many of them are smart enough to not put their name and address in the worm/virus. (Suprise! if youre smart enough to write this you might have a tiny bit of common sense.) Second, most are from outside the country, WHERE THE US GOVT. HAS NO JURISDICTION. Read that closely everyone, the FBI cannot go into china and arrest someone. and many countries are getting sick of the free-raid mentality that the US govt has had lately. Would you let your neighbor constantly search your house for problems? maybe at first, but when your neighbor starts taking your things because they look suspicious or sren;t allowed in his home... then you start to get pissed.

    The people in our Govt are the problem and the terrorists. They try and generate fear in the public about what these worms can do!

    I say we leave it to a team of geeks to find these people, and then bludgeon them with rubber hoses and soap in socks.. 3 months in prison wont stop them but the fear of getting their ass kicked by a few pissed IS/IT people will.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  81. why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I have been running that motherboard for the last 2 years as a server (currently rh7.2). If something works, why bother replacing it?


    Did they not know that Y2k was comming?

  82. A minor crime is still a crime. by Ixitar · · Score: 1

    I you bothered to read my post, you will see that I never said that they were terrorists. They are criminals! I just get sick of hearing people excuse these criminals actions as youthful indiscretions. They need to pay for their criminal acts.

  83. NARC! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    narc!

  84. There is no such thing as wasted bandwidth by swb · · Score: 1

    How do you "waste" bandwidth?

    Since today's unused bandwidth cannot be used tomorrow, it stands to reason that any use of bandwidth up to whatever the congestion point is cannot be seen as waste. The only really wasted bandwidth is *unused* bandwidth.

    You can make a value judgement about the quality of the information being transited but you cannot call that bandwidth wasted.

    Some people buy "bandwidth", but what they're really buying is the right to transit X amount of bits per month for a fixed amount of money. But the same thing about congestion holds true for this kind of bandwidth -- as long as you don't go over your monthly cap, only used bits are wasted.

    1. Re:There is no such thing as wasted bandwidth by teflonrabbit · · Score: 1

      Wow. Never had an open pipe?

      Bandwidth usage is polled and charged accordingly.

      (Unfortunately, the university that I work with was polled for their bandwidth usage right after the release of the mandrake iso's... our ISP tried to charge us nearly 500K because they thought that was our *usual* bandwidth utilization. A little more research showed that our bandwith utilization was not so exorbitant, and we were not erroneously charged.)

  85. The group is to big by musicmaster · · Score: 1

    Outlook is such a mess that every beginning VB programmer with a bit of fantasy can write a virus. Usually that kind of people is very astonished when they get worldwide headlines and are said to have caused many millions of dollars damage.

    You can't frighten this kind of people. They see themselves as kids playing a bit around and they think that writing virusses is something done by nerds who know all Windows API's and protocols(including the secret ones).

    Somehow someday Microsoft will become stricter too. Only then is there a chance that we can stop virusses (or at least make them rare).

  86. you=retard by ArchieBunker · · Score: -1

    He posts at -1 as it is. Modding him down won't do much other than show what a complete fucktard you are.

    --
    Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
  87. Re: Marketese and English by TimboJones · · Score: 1

    The value and beauty of the English language is that it affords the possibility of bending it in so many ways. This is its true advantage over other stricter languages.

    Honestly, how many languages do you know of with which you can verb a noun? Perhaps it's culture rather than an inherent property of the language, but what other language so speedily incorporates the vernacular into the language proper?

    Don't restrict yourself to some arbitrary 'correct' usage. That's double-plus-ungood.

    Regardless of all that, possession or containment is a perfectly acceptable use of the transitive verb 'boast.' To mere possession it adds a sense of pride by the subject for the object. I learned in fourth grade that one step on the road of good writing is to replace common, boring, limp words like 'have' or 'say' with uncommon, more powerful, specific or exciting words like 'boast' or 'blab.'

    So don't harp on this journalist for trying to be a better writer.

  88. New kind of free? by ansonyumo · · Score: 3, Funny

    Free as in beer
    Free as in software
    Free as in worm author

  89. TERRORrism by markj02 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Terrorism implies creating terror. I'm sorry, but most people are simply not scared by the prospect of finding a virus attachment in their E-mail: it is both common and easily dealt with.

    1. Re:TERRORrism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe not, but many are certainly terrified by the thought that they can go up to an ATM machine the day after recieving one of these attachments, and having it tell them that they have a balance of -$34kjk3n34.d3.

    2. Re:TERRORrism by markj02 · · Score: 2
      Doesn't terrify me. That's the bank's problem. I have paper records. And banks are not ordinarily affected by worms anyway.

      Besides, given that the majority of Americans have no savings or are deeply in debt, maybe they aren't so terrified after all by a major screwup in bank records.

    3. Re:TERRORrism by CrazyBusError · · Score: 1

      Get a grip dipshit. When you've seen the results of someone who's new to computers, been sold the latest thing by their high street store because no-one can get by without computers these days etc. etc. and they get a virus triggered in outlook that mails everyone it can find, or wipes their hard drive or silently hangs up the connection and redials another one in Chile, then you tell me it doesn't cause harm and / or terror.

      'it is both common and easily dealt with'. That, in one sentance is why linux is not on every desktop. It's why Microsoft and PC World and Dixons and Curries make a killing. Because the systems that actually work and their proponents seems to be unable to 'lower' themselves to the level of the common user, sneering at anyone who doesn't know the full hayes extended command set off by heart.

      Try reading what you write before posting. You might not come across as such a high handed elitist idiot that way.

      Anyway, why is it common? Why should I spend my time watching out for this crap? It's like saying that I should check under the diving board of my local pool every time I go swimming in case someone's moored up a mine there. 'Hey - It's common and easily dealt with. By the way, check no-one put acid in the shower tanks before you go in too'. It's a crime. It harms people. Both emotionally *and* financially.

      --
      -Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience-
  90. Word trivia... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    scot-free - O.E. scotfreo "exempt from royal tax," from scot "royal tax," from O.N. skot "contribution, shot" + freo (see free). http://www.geocities.com/etymonline/s1etym.htm

  91. A military perspective on terrorism by spook+brat · · Score: 1

    The US Army defines terrorism (for its own purposes) as "any act designed to influence an audience beyond the immediate vicitms". The "classical terrorist" you describe is actually a sabateur, and the crimes you describe him as committing fit better under the definition of "subversion".

    This is why terrorists generally have demands completely unrelated to the violent act committed, and have no problem with killing their victims. The vicitms aren't the people they're trying to manipulate.

    Similarly, worm writers _should_ be considered criminals and held liable for the damage they produce, just as any other sabateur should. However, if they haven't declared a digital "holy war" against the devils in Redmond and claim that they will continue until no Fortune 500 company runs Microsoft software anywhere in their organisation, then they aren't terrorists.

    Summary:
    script kiddie who defaces a web site with "J00 R H4X0R3D!!!" == vandal

    script kiddie who defaces a web site with "Let this be a warning to all others who run the Redmond Beast's operating system" == terrorist

    --
    Travel the Galaxy! Meet fascinating life forms... ...and kill them - http://schlockmercenary.com
  92. only destructive because of incompetence by markj02 · · Score: 2
    If IIS, IE, and Outlook didn't have such gaping holes and weren't so market dominant, worms and viruses wouldn't be very destructive.

    Worms and viruses are the equivalent of teenagers skateboarding in a China shop. Sure, technically, if they knock something over, they are responsible. But why the hell did the shop keeper allow skateboards in the shop in the first place?

    It would be a sweet deal for Internet businesses to be able to have all their security-related costs to the public. But the people who should pay for Internet security are the ones benefitting from Internet business--the merchants and infrastructure providers. Putting this responsibility on the public amounts to a huge corporate welfare check for Microsoft and Internet businesses, who get to keep making profits without bearing the cost of security.

    1. Re:only destructive because of incompetence by Ixitar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Where did you get your values?

      There is nothing technical about the skateboarder's responsibility for something being broken by his/her own actions. Does the owner need to post a no skateboarding sign, or can we as a society rely on common sense.

      We, as a society, have relied on the common sense model for a very long time. What has changed in our society, that people don't think that they are responsible for their own actions?

      Yes, people shoud do a better job in writing their software. That does not excuse those that are writing the viruses and the worms.

    2. Re:only destructive because of incompetence by markj02 · · Score: 2

      Where is YOUR common sense? Where are YOUR values? The police has limited resources, that's a fact. Should they spend a lot of time on what amounts to harmless teenage pranks that any responsible on-line business could protect themselves easily and cheaply from, businesses that make billions of dollars in profit? Or should the police spend their time on solving violent crimes, preventing violent crimes, and community outreach? To me the choice is clear. It is your values and your reasoning that, to me, seem completely out of touch with the real world.

  93. Poor basis for the original argument by cavemanf16 · · Score: 1
    All three of you are off in my opinion. Why?

    1. No company can perfectly ensure safety of their product. A housebuilder can't always provide indestructable windows to thwart a thief, just as a Java programmer cannot always provide the absolute "best practices" to ensure software coding 'safety.'
    2. Not everyone has a sysadmin's skill set, hence, patching faulty products is not something everyone knows how to do, or why they should do it.
    3. Not all crimes can be solved. Just as thiefs make off with stolen goods every day, so too a script-kiddie can remain safely anonymous from the law.

    The basis you are all forgetting, is this: If we were given the tools in the first place to make our homes/software secure, we wouldn't be in such a vulnerable position if we didn't want to be. Thankfully, Microsoft does offer free patches when THEY fix the flaw in their product. Unfortunately, there is no way to know if they forgot a lock on the upstairs window until someone manages to stumble upon the fact, because they've chosen to limit everyone's right to fully use their own house (read: software). If you lease it, you can't upgrade it...

    Similarly, if I want to own a gun (at least in America still) to protect my house and family from intrusion, I can. Is it fullproof? No, but it's better than not being able to own a gun. Get my point?

    All I am saying is that I DO prefer Windows ease of use and advancements they've made to date, but what REALLY worries me is that I can't 'make things better' as I see fit without paying more for the 'lease.' Linux, on the other hand, encourages everyone to add to it, rebuild it, and fortify it by giving everyone the rights to do so. Can I do so directly? No, I'm not a programmer, but at least other people have released add-on tools that I can use to do so.

    And finally, security through obscurity is nice for the CEO, but bad for the end-user. Why? I test software, and I've seen it over and over again: a product gets released with a couple bugs that no one has the time to test, and before you know it, it's causing serious problems for the end-user. Now when you release the software with the bugs, and tell people, "Hey, check this software out. It may never be perfect, but we hope you can catch the bugs and repair, or help us repair them before they cause a big problem."

  94. Why worm writers stay script kiddies by fmalita · · Score: 2, Interesting

    IMNSHO the most annoying aspect of those worms is the poor quality of the code. Total ignorance.

    It's enough to take a quick look at my server's logs to see a bunch of attempts to exploit IIS holes in Apache! This alone makes me wanna put them behind bars...

    For God's sake, all they have to do is check the server type and thus spare lots of bandwidth. A real coder would do that.

    Apparently VB aware script kiddies wouldn't...

    1. Re:Why worm writers stay script kiddies by thumbtack · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Now then having agreed, I personally think that coding in general has become quite sloppy. Large hard drives, CD-ROMs and massive amounts of RAM make bloated code a non issue to most people. I once had to make a large map scollable in all directions so it would fit on a standard screen, using Macromedia Director for a tourism cd-rom. I didn't have a lot of time so I bought one of the books that covered Macromedia's "Lingo" in depth that had a pre-written script that would work with a few slight modifications. As I started making the mods I needed, and quickly realized that most of the code was useless and totaly unndeed. In the end the script I wrote was 7 lines. The one that was condsidered the "standard" was 64 lines long. Not a big deal, but everyone of my mulitimedia designer friends commented on how much quicker and smoother mine was vs the other. This was written when 486DXs were the norm rather than the Pentium I was working on. While the extra 57 lines of code didn't make a difference on my system, they certainly did on a 486SX25 running 16MB of RAM. This was when RAM was still quite expensive and 3GB hard drives were a dream. (and a damned expensive on at that). As the speed and capabilities of our systems grow, so does the size of the software. I think back to what we used to do on our old Commodore 64's with almost no memory, and I have say theat I am glad that I learned the basics (no pun intended) of programing back then, because I still want clean code when I write. It makes for easier troubleshooting, error correction, more speed, and smoother operation. So much of what we see out there today from the "Commercial Software" community is what I consider to be "bloatware." Just because you can do it, doesnt mean you have to, or even should.

  95. Cuz they haven't violated the DMCA yet. by racerx509 · · Score: 1

    Why not? Because they haven't violated the DMCA. When worms start cracking DVDs, or eBooks, or traffic warez, then we'll see more worm authors caught.

    --
    13 year old white supremacists are shitty web designers.
  96. viruses are a form of speech by Cardhore · · Score: 1, Troll

    It's not the virus writers fault for all these shenanigans. It's the computer owner's fault. The virus is simply a string of bits. It doesn't do anything by itself. But you running the virus on your computer makes you responsible. You should know exactly what your computer is doing at all times. If you can't handle a multitasking operating system (that runs viruses in the background) maybe you should write all your software in assembly so you know exactly what your computer is doing at all times.

    --
    Got friends?
  97. Resource use by spam vs. worms... by Kymermosst · · Score: 2

    The bandwidth wasted by a successful worm is gigantic. To say nothing of time and disk space.

    In terms of bandwidth/time/storage space, which is worse for the net as a whole, then? Is it successful worms, or is it really the spam?

    I think it's the spam... and since I've never been directly affected by a successful worm, I most certainly would rather see spammers get jailtime rather than worm writers, if I had to choose one or the other.

    Both would certainly be acceptable.

    --
    "Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
  98. Who would pay by willum448 · · Score: 0

    Of course there free, no one would wanna buy one!

  99. May not the popular view but.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    ..this is the Internet. Hackers were here before the suits and laymen, if they don't like the way things are done they can get the fuck out.

    Sircam, Nimda, CodeRed.. bring it on. If you can infect my comp, kudos to you.

  100. Evidently, DMCA is the real priority... by dcavanaugh · · Score: 2

    Punish the script kiddies? Why? Damage? What damage? A few million dollars here, a few million there, it's only money!

    Let's get our priorities straight! Now that Sklyarov guy, there's a dangerous criminal! His ultra-dangerous Adobe-buster is cyber-terrorism at it's worst! That must be why Skylarov has spent more time in jail than all the script kiddies in the world combined. And people think our government doesn't have any sense of priority! Way to go DOJ!

  101. HE's kidding by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

    the other guy is serious ... difference enough for ya ?

  102. users ... by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

    One could compare the users to people who like to push buttons they don't know. If you don't absolutely trust the source DON'T EXECUTE IT ? Is it really that hard to comprehend ? If there's a red button on a cube-like humming box I made, you will not push it. Why is it that when I send you a program you do push the button ? NOT knowing what it does ?

    And sjeesj, using outlook should be made a crime. Everybody knows it is the main tool for destroying the internet. It really should be banned. Don't let kids play with fire/knives/outlook !

  103. There's nothing wrong with virus code by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

    there's something wrong with people who execute it.

  104. Put a price on their head by FreeUser · · Score: 3, Interesting
    OK, several points:

    • Virus, Trojan, and Work authors (who disseminate their software into the open net) are criminals. The are not terrorists, as nothing they do comes anywhere close to instilling terror. They are vandals, perhaps even "mass vandals" if there is such a word, but terrorists they are only in Newspeak.
    • They should be punished for their crimes, and the punishment should fit the severity of the crime. For the record, no amount of monetary damage comes anywhere close to equalling the atrocity of a single act of violent rape or murder. Keep that in mind when pondering sentences.
    • If these worm authors really are doing billions and billions of dollars of damage here in the cosmic fugue, then perhaps the corporations so affected should put a few thousandths of a cent on the dollar where their mouths are, and put a bounty on the perps head. Say, oh, I dunno, $25,000,000 US?
    • Of course, the real damage done isn't anywhere close to the same order of magnitude as that which is claimed, which is probably one reason why a $25M bounty is seen as exhorbitantly expensive, rather than a bargain. Go figure.
    • If one more person equates terrorism with blatently non-terroristic acts, such as voicing a dissenting, perhaps unpopular opinion or committing acts of vandalism (electronic or otherwise) which clearly do not instill "terror" in their victims (except perhaps the terror of one incompetent system administrator about to loose their job and, I'm sorry, that doesn't count as widespread terror by any sane definition) I will personally bitchslap their ass to kingdom come.
    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
  105. OT: You must be high by Karl_Hungus · · Score: 2

    I happen to like a web page that compares Margret Sanger's ideaology with the Aryan ideology. It doesn't say she should be(have been) hanged for crimes against humanity (because she didn't personally commit any).

    Wow. Before now, I wasn't sure what a libruhl Freeper sounded like. Here's a link, in case anyone is wondering why this fucking clown thinks someone who was persecuted and prosecuted for spreading information about preventing STDs and unwanted pregnancies is the moral equivalent of a Nazi sympathizer.

    If you have a problem with Nazi supporters in the US, you need to look to the right and not to the left. It sure as hell wasn't wobblies, unionists, and labor activists who bankrolled that monster. Think bankers and industrialists, and particularly think the Bushes.

    --

    --
    Freeper Logic
    1. Re:OT: You must be high by evilviper · · Score: 2

      Most people today think that Planned Parenthood and Nazi Germany have
      little in common. Their histories show otherwise. Margaret Sanger, the
      founder of Planned Parenthood, subscribe to a Hitlerian philosophy of
      Eugenics - the science of improving "racial health" by socially engineering
      human reproduction. Both Hitler and the founders of Planned Parenthood
      advocate birth control, sterilization, and segregation in concentration camps
      for the "unfit."


      Well I didn't want to make a big issue about this (It's really not the main topic of discussion) but here is the link to the web page I mentioned: http://lancasterlife.com/NurembergFiles/

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    2. Re:OT: You must be high by evilviper · · Score: 2
      681-and well-to-do classes. On the contrary, the most urgent problem to-
      682-day is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally
      683:and physically defective. Possibly drastic and Spartan methods may be
      684-forced upon American society if it continues complacently to encourage
      685-the chance and chaotic breeding that has resulted from our stupid,
      686-cruel sentimentalism.


      1236-These young men were the children of yesterday. Authorities tell us
      1237:that 75 per cent. of the school-children are defective. This means


      1718-abnormally high rate of fertility. Modern conditions of civilization,
      1719-as we are continually being reminded, furnish the most favorable
      1720:breeding-ground for the mental defective, the moron, the imbecile.


      1754-production of large families, they are ignoring the exigent problem of
      1755-the elimination of the feeble-minded. In this, however, the


      1858-mortality. Are we to check the infant mortality rate among the
      1859-feeble-minded and aid the unfortunate offspring to grow up, a menace
      1860-to the civilized community even when not actually certifiable as
      1861:mentally defective or not obviously imbecile?


      1905-We object because both are burdens and dangers to the intelligence of
      1906-the community. As a matter of fact, there is sufficient evidence to
      1907-lead us to believe that the so-called ``borderline cases'' are a
      1908:greater menace than the out-and-out ``defective delinquents'' who can
      1909-be supervised, controlled and prevented from procreating their kind.


      2095-especially of the moron class, should be segregated during the
      2096-reproductive period. Otherwise, she is almost certain to bear
      2097-imbecile children, who in turn are just as certain to breed other
      2098:defectives. The male defectives are no less dangerous. Segregation
      2099-carried out for one or two generations would give us only partial
      2100-control of the problem. Moreover, when we realize that each feeble-
      2101-minded person is a potential source of an endless progeny of defect,


      2105-This, I say, is an emergency measure. But how are we to prevent the
      2106-repetition in the future of a new harvest of imbecility, the
      2107:recurrence of new generations of morons and defectives, as the logical
      2108-and inevitable consequence of the universal application of the
      2109-traditional and widely approved command to increase and multiply?



      2235-to diminish the spread of misery and destitution and all the menacing
      2236-evils that spring out of this sinisterly fertile soil, are the surest
      2237-sign that our civilization has bred, is breeding and is perpetuating
      2238:constantly increasing numbers of defectives, delinquents and
      2239-dependents. My criticism, therefore, is not directed at the
      2240-``failure'' of philanthropy, but rather at its success.


      2300-delinquent.'' Insanity, which, we should remember, is to a great
      2301-extent hereditary, annually drains from the state treasury no less
      2302-than $11,985,695.55, and from private sources and endowments another



      I feel I should comment on these quotes, especially the last one. These are pulled directly from the online e-book of "The Pivot of Civilization" written by Margaret Sanger. I simply used:
      'grep -i -n -A 3 -B 3 "defective" pivot.txt|less'
      to find these quotes. You are welcome to download the e-book as I did, from: http://www.textlibrary.com/TITLE/pivot/
      and go to the lines quoted and then tell me that this isn't completely accurate.

      Margaret Sanger clearly wanted to eliminate all those of us who are less-than-perfect. I fell especially strongly on the last quote because of the fact that I come from a Schizophrenic parent. While I am a sane, intelligent, and productive member of scoiety, it would not matter to Sanger. I am 'defective', and one of the dangerous 'fringe' cases that cannot easially be spotted and... well, sterilized I suppose (if not out and out killed).


      I felt it was necessary to quote these directly from her own book so that there is no doubt that it is properly quoted, and used in context. These aren't from a pro/anti choice/life website which put a spin on it. It's directly from Sanger's own writings, and quoted word for word (and I included the line numbers, what else could I have done to make this any better?).

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    3. Re:OT: You must be high by Karl_Hungus · · Score: 1

      OK, I jumped w/o checking your link, but that is clearly not a bias-neutral site. Are these the people who post hit-lists of abortion doctors or is that someone else? I understand how you'd take that personally, though; several people close to me have illnesses mental and otherwise not too far up the family tree, and I'd hate to have not ever known them because of anyone's idea of "efficiency". I'll give you that hands-down. So, I must retract my ad hominem attack against you and apologize for it as well.

      I do find the idea of state-mandated abortion or sterilization reprehensible. AFAIK, that isn't going on in the US now, although I am aware that it was widespread here in the earlier half of the XXth century. To me, what does not necessarily follow from Sanger's beliefs is that the Planned Parenthood of today espouses the same set of beliefs. My understanding is that the state should not mandate anything: abortion, sterilization, contraception, conception.

      If these people are truly outraged about abortion, why do I never hear the pro-life activists clamor for pre-natal care, school nutritional programs, environmental cleanup/safety (remember lead paint?) Why aren't these people lined up around the block offering to adopt the children of moronic inner-city parents? Where are these people when it comes to the death penalty? Life is sacred, right? It's never too late to be saved, right? They really don't seem to care what happens to a kid after s/he is born. You know, "life is sacred until birth, then kick the leeching bitch off the welfare rolls ASAP." If abortion is so bad, why don't they want contraception taught in schools? Surely the "obscenity" of a condom rolled over a banana is preferable to the obscenity of an abortion. And it is an obscene thing. Unlike Sanger, I do not claim to know who is worthy and who is not, so I don't presume to make that decision for others, and would not have anyone make it for me. That includes the state and people who feel strongly that they know what is best, no matter which side they come from.

      If I've lumped you in with a group whose views you disagree with, I'm sorry. I can acknowledge eugenicism (sp?) on the left then if you can acknowledge denial of access to birth control on the right today. Deal?

      --

      --
      Freeper Logic
    4. Re:OT: You must be high by evilviper · · Score: 2
      why do I never hear the pro-life activists clamor for pre-natal care, school nutritional programs, environmental cleanup/safety

      You got me. I have not idea why you don't hear that. It does happen, and I would dare say there are just as many anti-abortion supports promoting contraception, planned parenthood, welfare for pregnant and single mothers, etc. Why haven't you heard it? People have a tendency to pay more attention when they hear something they like to hear, and disregard things that don't tell them what they like. Just as you attacked my mention of Sanger supporting Nazi'esque ideas of a breed of superior people, you probably would have rallied around someone who compared Sanger with a saint, etc. People really do hear the things they don't want to (that old saying is quite inaccurate) they just put more creedance into those things that they belive, and less into the things they do not. It truely is difficult to be fair and objective.

      I appreciate your appology, and would just suggest you choose your battles more carefully in the future. Everyone's time could be better spent. (Support the positive rather than attacking the negative, etc.)
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    5. Re:OT: You must be high by zulux · · Score: 2

      If you have a problem with Nazi supporters in the US, you need to look to the right and not to the left.

      FYI - The Nazi's got their nickname from their Greman party name, translated to the English as "National Socialist Party". The cheif hallmark of Socialism is that millions people wind up dead when ever a dictitorial Socialist takes power - see Stalin, Mao, and Hitler.

      --

      Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.

  106. Too many windows by filtersweep · · Score: 1

    After reading a million analogies here:

    Windows are poor security in any setting- a house, a car, a PC. You can put as many locks as you want- but you can always easily break windows. Notice how bank vaults generally have no windows.

    --


    Those that suggest you "dance like no one is watching" really want to see you make a complete fool of yourself.
  107. "Overworked Law Enforcement" is half the reason by Bob_Robertson · · Score: 2

    The other half is because people have ignorantly abrogated their responsibility for prosecuting their own loss.

    If just ONE of those companies that "lost billions" had prosecuted the perp themselves, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    But no, we sit here and decry how "law enforcement is overworked" to do all the prosecuting for us. And in those places where medical service is also government provided? Gee, the same discussion, how "medical providers are overworked".

    Maybe the pattern this obvious to me is obvious to others. Has anyone who claims to have lost money gone after a virus writer? Anyone? Any company? Any organization?

    The negative effects of abrogating your physical security to "law enforcement" is well known. There is very little argument that even the best firewall does not eliminate the requirement that individual PC's and servers be individually hardened.

    Yet with all this emphasis on distributed defense, there is not a distributed offence against these virus writers?

    Bob-

    --
    The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
  108. Is code free speech? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or isn't it?

    If it is then there's your answer.

  109. To write code is not a crime! by tuxisuau · · Score: 1

    We have to separate things.
    One thing is to make a self-replicant program, with is very mind stimulating and such, and it needs to be able to be published perfectly in a website, letting people know it is a virus and "download only if u are interested to analyze the code" without any fear.
    Another very different thing is to write a virus and send it into people without alerting them to make it spread (or to take a virus published by a no-evil person and spread it with evil intentions).
    The ones that should be punished is that ones, and the ones who write or administrators who use applications with very stupid holes that allow code to be executed without the user agreeement (Like M$ Internet Exploder, Outunlock, m$ OriFFICE, and such kind of crap)

  110. What if you're paying for traffic? by himi · · Score: 2

    It's normal in many parts of the world to pay for the traffic actually used - I live in Australia, where the normal charge is on the order of 5-10 cents per megabyte. That gigabyte suddenly costs on the order of $100-$200 . . .

    Sure, that's not much if you're talking about a company, but I live in a residential college, and /I/ pay12c/MB for incoming traffic. A couple of hundred a month is real money for me.

    And what if you have a bandwidth cap? You find yourself on some worm's hitlist, and suddenly it's gone, and you have to pay excess to stay online.

    What's more, you're completely ignoring the cost to the infrastructure providers (hint: /they/ have to pay for bandwidth - ISPs do, too, they just incorporate the costs into their pricing structures). It might seem like bandwidth is essentially free, particularly if you're in the US, but it's /not/. That kind of thinking is part of why so many cheap ISPs go under.

    The kind of calculation you made is really naive. Which isn't to say that the kind of stupid calculations companies and law enforcement people throw about are accurate, of course - the reality probably lies somewhere in between. But bandwidth /does/ cost money, and that money has to come from somewhere. Worms like SirCam are more than just minor annoyances consuming negligible capacity on the network.

    himi

    --

    My very own DeCSS mirror.
  111. Why our case of worms is as bad as it is today by Joe+Hardy+(_yoda) · · Score: 1

    As far as I can see, there are a number of factors that contribute to the difficulties we're having with worms at the moment.

    1. The authors. Namely what they do with their time and / or their self esteem. It needs to be said that creative hackers that come up with some of this stuff could be applying their skills towards much more productive uses. When possible we should encourage those who appear to be inclined to waste time in this way to use their time and skills wisely.

    There is no reason why even designing a destructive system is benificial, no matter how clever it is. Any creativity that is shown through development of something such as this has a place elsewhere.

    2. The users. It is true that we must educate end-users to be discerning towards what they execute. Most importantly, this must not be a 'if you get a message that looks something like this, do this', we need to ensure that they understand how these things are distributed and the forms they can come in. It's not hard to do. In my family's case without any real protection we've had an almost entirely hit free bill of health over the last few years.

    3. The software. Obviously Microsoft products are a popular target, and I don't have a lot of respect towards the way they've treated security in their applications. Unfortunately it is true that the one thing they have been very successful at doing is creating a slick, clean working enviroment, something that isn't easily found elsewhere. This is crucially important to this issue. My relatives immediately notice the difference if I put them in front of, say, Mozilla or StarOffice, despite their impressive efforts (I must say they are beginning to come together nicely of late). As well as that, I have *not* seen anything that handles schedule management or other PHB-friendly features as well as something like Outlook. Until competitors do some serious work towards user friendliness, things will stay this way.

    Please note that I'm not saying that Microsoft software is exclusively ahead of the pack, but it is an acknowledged leader.

    Just my 2c ...

    --
    -- No, no gems to be found in this sig.
  112. This Article... by wedg · · Score: 1

    ...should really almost be part of the previous one. Worm writers go free because companies don't care about it enought to prosecute. QED.

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    Jake
    Dating: while( 1 ){ call_girl(); get_rejected(); drink_40(); } return 0;
  113. Real Worms... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You wanna see a worm? How about 3rd party cookies(just a random of many possible targets)?

    I mean seriously people, we let doubleclick and other organizations use our computing power, bandwidth, and hdd space for their own profit... it is unsolicted/unlicensed distributed computing.

    Give me a break, I work in IT too. Blaming virii and worms for down networks is just an excuse for a complete lack of robustness and stability. It is one thing to have a server down for a bit due to a DoS, but entire networks... I haven't heard of too many ISP's loosing all service due to a good /.ing .

    BTW: I could have targetted any number of M$ built in features or other internet browser concepts for this, but chose a easier to explain target.