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Microsoft Settlement For Private Suits Rejected
Lumpish Scholar writes: "Reuters story here. The judge "could not endorse the settlement ... Microsoft will have to start from scratch in negotiating a new settlement or fight the scores of suits in court."" Reuters also has an article from yesterday that looks at the positions of the various parties prior to this news. You will recall that Microsoft was proposing to settle the civil suits brought against it by donating free Microsoft software and old computers to schools. And do remember - because this always seems to confuse people - that the case brought by the Department of Justice and state governments is distinct from these suits filed by individuals.
To tie this up in the courts for years. Or atleast long enough to push out a few more OS versions....
Do it doug.
I have friends that know Judge Motz here in Baltimore. He was described to me as a person with "A strong sense of fairness" and a good judge. I had a feeling he would reject that BS settlement ! woohoo !
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech."--Benjamin Franklin
Gooooood!
My faith-o-meter in this planet just rose a little. That would have busticated me had MS been able to lock in the next generation of kids with their products as a 'punishment'.
"Old man yells at systemd"
Bend over MS!!
Who wants to bet that this will go on for ten years?
This is awesome... the deal that was reached was so totally beneficial to Microsoft it would have made more sense if Microsoft had been suing the schools and the judgement was inflicted on them!
A flat-out $1 billion cash sum should do it.
There really isn't anything to say to this, though, other than "Thank God". This was the most ridiculous idea that I've ever seen in the courts, and I almost thought the system was going to allow this mockery through.
If it had been allowed, how much damage do you think would have been done to Apple? Apple bases a signifigant portion of their business in Education... Would Microsoft have been able to break Apple's tenuous hold on the market?
When encryption is outlawed, ?o'AZ-,++o+i++##4AoA+-/-C++bI+/.+~
That the settlement and the Red Hat Modification (ie MS buys the computers and RH donates the free software) would be accepted
There is nothing really more to say. If the suit had been accepted it would have meant that our politicians really are as dumb as Microsoft thinks they are.
Enough said. They can keep fighting, but the years and years of bad software design is finally catching up to them.
Luck favors the prepared, darling.
given MS's record on legal action for this case, do you really think they would let anyone install anything else but MS software?
~ now you know
The lawyers are the true victors. Corporate attorneys and trial lawyers alike; they will have to be doing stuff all over (and get paid again).
This is a quote from this Yahoo article.
I'm really happy to see that the judge didn't cave in!
299,792,458 m/s...not just a good idea, its the law!
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
Let see here .. donate computers and high prices software to schools. A "penalty" with a tax write off. Gawd .. plz.
.. do all of us honest taxpayers get a small tax break because the schools do not need as much money? Dont think so.
Not to mention, use its monopolistic power to furthor push its products in all the schools. This is no different then "college rates" for computer software. The vendors hope that people will get hooked to thier products and buy them in the future (at full price of course)
If this suit did go through
I sure did like the "M$ supplies the hardware, and Red Hat will provide the OS."
-- Knowing too much can get you killed, but knowing who knows too much can make you rich.
"Class-action attorneys from California have argued the money should be reimbursed directly to customers who were overcharged for Microsoft software."
how on earth would they enforce that idea then? and would all the people with pirate copies get a share too?
Does this also mean redhat are now in with a chance?
Anyone else not able to see the page now?
I am not preaching linux, mac, or any other OS, just don't support microsoft!
ender-iii
Apple and others had objected on the grounds that by letting Microsoft give software and cheap hardware to schools, they were actually not out much money (since they just have to replicate their own software) and were reaping giant marketing benefits by pushing out Apple or other vendors.
It's at least a small victory.
that Judge Motz didn't blab to any reporters in his chambers that the settlement was patently unjust or that the microsoft execs were behaving like spoiled children.
(Don't mind me, but I've been burned before with false-relief that the truth will out.)
M$ is one company out of many, not a monopoly. Words mean things.... I guess, except when lawyers get involved!
Ok let me get this straight, they where going to flood the education market with free software, os, and hardware from Microsoft as punishment? That is great, as a payment for your crime we are going to force you to have a new market share you have never had before. Also, this will increase the number of your users, and thus your monoply by teaching a whole new generation of users to work on windows. What marketing guru figured that would fly?
Neck_of_the_Woods
#/usr/local/surf/glassy/overhead
U.S. District Court Judge J. Frederick Motz said he could not endorse the settlement even though it would have committed Microsoft to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on software and computers for poor schools.
Like the software costs them anything beyond the manufacturing cost (what is it, a small fraction of a penny for each CD pressed?)
Seriously. Their idea of a settlement was to donate computers with MS software to schools? I read about that before as their proposed settlement and didn't really pay much attention to it, but now that they actually took it to a judge I'm just speechless.
Here's why I'm laughing inside: MS gets sued by individuals for unfair competition and illegal business practices, and then MS proposes a solution where they will appear to be doing a public good, but in fact they will be cementing their platform in the future computer world by brainwashing children. What a joke!
Like many others on here, I would love to see them donate all this hardware only for RedHat to volunteer and install Linux on it all, but I seriously doubt MS would let that happen. Given their attitude and actions in this case so far, I'm sure they'd write up some wordy contracts about proper use of the equipment they donated. I wouldn't be surprised if they even claimed everything produced by the computers and software would then become IP of MS. Anyhow, I really think the judge should have fined them for wasting the court's time.
~ now you know
The only thing about this I don't like (due to herd mentality) is the effect it will have on the markets, if only temporarily.
It's already happening, and will continue. Have patience.
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
Microsoft was going to make the donations to poor school districts rather than pay out $1 to each person in the class action lawsuit.
Sorry, but I can't see this as a good thing. The trial will go on forever and eventually everyone may get a dollar.
I'd rather see the kids get the goods.
I gave myself to Jesus, but now he never calls
From the article: "Class-action attorneys from California have argued the money should be reimbursed directly to customers who were overcharged for Microsoft software."
This is interesting. How does someone actually determine the worth or 'price' of software? Generally you want to take all your overhead, add some profit, and take a good estimate of what your sales will be. Then you'd determine a price. (I realize this is very OVER simplified) You would also compare your product against competitive products and see where you sit in comparison to them price/value wise.
Since Microsoft essentially had a monopoly on the PC market for sales of Operating Systems, their competition was none. They could charge any price to the OEMs and Consumers for the retail packages they felt like, which at least appeared to be a reasonable price to most customers.
But how would they determine if someone was overcharged by Microsoft? Is the very fact that when you buy a PC, you automatically have Windows installed on it and are also paying for the OEM version of Windows that was installed on that PC?
This could easily be argued as a 'value-added' feature of that PC. Where the customer ultimately benefits because the cost of an OEM Windows license is less than the Retail Windows license.
I personally loathe Windows, and don't use it. But I'm more curious on how they determined that Microsoft overcharged it's customers.
It's a pipe dream today, but tomorrow it could be reality!
The judge was unhappy with the "private suits?" Great. Now MS will just release "public suits" for us to buy. In a year from now all of our clothing will be covered by .NET!
And if that's not bad enough, consider the goon squad that will repo your underwear when you neglect your license fees...
------
Today's Top Deals
This was a pre-trial settlement. Microsoft has not been found guilty of the allegations of over charging consumers.
These cases will now go to court.
But it's up to the claimants to prove that in a more competitive market the price would have actually declined. That was the allegation that Judge Jackson made in his court that spawned these lawsuits, but it was more of an assumption of the nature of monoply than really supported by facts.
It's highly unlikely that Microsoft will lose these cases, they simply tried to get a pre-trial settlement because it would have been cheaper than the legal costs of fighting in court, as well as derailing the negative publicity a court case causes.
That is why the proposed settlement cost seemed so low. It was a hedge, not a punishment.
But not because it was Microsoft. I'm not sure I understand it all, but from what I gather this was Microsofts remedy to 100s of individual lawsuits, brought by individuals (not the DOJ or the States).
So Microsoft is sued by individuals for overcharging them for Windows (AFAIK)(?). Microsoft then says - "Hey, psst Judge, why don't we get rid of all these pesky little suits tying up your courts. And in return I'll do, oh, say, a little community service. On my own terms of course. Whadda say?"
I'm glad the Judge told them no - it would have been quite a travesty for the aggrieved to have gotten no compensation.
Apple has a huge chunk of the education market. MS offers to give computers and MS apps to schools. End result, schools get a one time free shot of MS products and then have to pay the rest of their existence. MS gets a huge chunk of the market for essentially nothing and Apple gets bent over like a new prisoner in Cell Block D for being on the "winning" side.
This was a terrible deal masquerading as a philanthropical measure.
So, I'm glad that this all came out (somethat( OK.
TANSTAAFI: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free iPod.
for a computer seller and this deal would have gone through .. I would have
made a haul!!!
-- Knowing too much can get you killed, but knowing who knows too much can make you rich.
I just shuddered when I saw Gates dressed as Harry Potter. What a travesty!
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
MS may have lost this one, but they are patient in seeking complete market domination. There are many palms to grease in DC. Eventually someone will rise up in Congress and ask that we brush aside this blight on the profits of such a fine company as Microsoft.
I'd like to believe that won't happen. But too many legislators have the techincal comprehension of a sea slug. Nothing substantive will ever happen to Microsoft at the behest of any branch of the US Government. Eventually the dissenting states will be forced to give up the fight because they simply can't afford the up-front cost of litigation.
... all their legal fees.
I wish I knew how much money they are
throwing at their lawyers.
or fight the scores of suits in court
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Microsoft has become too successful for its own good, but American society has devolved to the point where people walk around living daily life looking for someone to sue.
"Your honor, when I started Windows up, there it was, Internet Explorer...staring me in the face...that big blue E...I was so shaken I had to turn off the pc."
I saw this in someone's .signature on some random mailing list that I can't remember at the moment. I think they attributed it to a Mac website.
...someone is caught breaking into your house, offers to repair the
damage instead of going to jail, if they can put up a massive billboard
for their house maintainance business in your front yard for six
months...
woof!
Wait. Donating old computers and software would cost almost nothing to Microsoft and would guarantee a new generation of people dependent on using only Microsoft software. This would be more of a benefit for Microsoft rather than a punishment. Perhaps a better punishment would be to offer rebates from Microsoft. This would immediately benefit people who have bought Microsoft software (those who are allegedly ffected by the monopoly.)
here's a link that may explain what the cupie doll is in this game.http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/23573. html If i were in on the lawsuits I wouldn't settle for anything less than half. That's right they have a cash reserve of $36 Billion, and it's growing by $1.5 billion per day..
Just Limin' Mon
Always will a company try to settlement of good and services rather than cash, as cash represents an immediate hit on the bottom line, but goods can be manufactured and suppliers billing for material are usually paid on Net 30 terms.
It's all about the cash flow. Monetary settlements ccan wreak havoc.
It's interesting to look at the various links to the right of the main story on that page. The one titled "Experts Question Microsoft Action," for example, has yet *another* example of Microsoft's dirty tricks: violating the Tunney Act by trying to make deals with legislators (totally aside from their attempts at deal-making with the DoJ) and not informing the court about it.
Then there's the way MS wants to bar the public from the proceedings... while it's heartening to see that they can still lose (maybe -- the case isn't over yet!), it's also kind fo scary to see that they're actually starting to learn more about how to (try to) manipulate the process in Washington. Compared to their bumbling in the political arena a few years back, they've actually made giant strides. Which does not bode well.
We may have just one won battle (though actually, I'd prefer to think that *justice* just won a round), but we need to keep our eyes on MS. They're not about to roll over and play dead, and I think they're getting wilier.
Kai MacTane: Web developer for hire in San Francisco
there's a small battle won by the good guys
I think giblet is abusing his moderation points!. ...waiting 20 seconds so i can post again.
Odds of being killed by lightning and winning the lottery in the same day: 1 in 2^55
I have always wondered about this. If I had only two choices; Microsoft and Apple, I think I would prefer a world ruled by Microsoft than by Apple. The only thing Apple has going for it is that they are the underdogs and people like underdogs.
:)
Apple's philosophy has always been about domination and control and they have never encouraged tinkering and hacking by individuals. At least Microsoft freely release GW-Basic in the early days and how many people first became interested in programming due to the availability of Basic. Microsoft has also supported the porting of Perl and Python (via Activestate) to the Windows environment. Also, Microsoft's software has been typically cheaper than Apple's
Also, Apple has shown to be very anti-competitive in other ways. Remember Apple 's sordid attempt to foster clones? As soon as the clone manufactures became a little too efficient and began competing a little too well and delivering products to consumers at lower cost; Apple put their foot down and revoked licensing.
I am glad tho that I do not have to pick between the lesser of two evils
I think that the judges should just dissolve MS in its entirety, and make it illegal to use Windows.
Then the world would be a happy place right?
Right?
This coupled with the recent questions raised by the MS' failiure to reveal its contact with congress doesn't bode well for them. I think they should be forced to donate CASH to schools, or better yet, Apples or Linux servers. Punishment should involve something that MS would REALLY hate to do. Either that, or prison time for Bill & sons.
It's a way to declare your hatred for JonKatz. /.
Seriously, so many people requested some way of telling JonKatz that he is a wiener, they put this in
- Kaos games and encryption systems developer
I agree.
I personally think it was a bad way to settle. It would just give them a tight hold on the school markets.
I was just talking with someone today about how something like a speeding ticket to Bill Gates is no punishment at all.
But a public whipping would be pretty punishing no matter who you are (well maybe not to masochists)
So rather than come up with some arbitrarily large sum of money to punish Microsoft, maybe all the execs on the board should be publicly flogged.
It wasn't Microsoft's proposal, it came from the plaintiffs.
From the original article: "The school-software proposal came from one of the lead plaintiffs' lawyers in the case, Michael Hausfeld..."
Its unbelievable how this misinformation keeps spiraling out of control. Even the Slashdot editors have now bought into it.
If Microsoft was forced to donate copies of Red Hat Linux for those old computers...
-RickTheWizKid
How about a free copy of a linux or Free/NetBSD distro to everyone who can supply Microsoft with a valid Windows license? I'm not talking downloaded ISO's, I'm talking about retail boxed distros, the ones that include manuals and support. Make MS buy them from Redhat, Mandrake, Suse and all.
Disclaimer: Yeah, I have VA Linux stock. (But at least I bought it last summer).
I tried every decent and legal way I could think of to resolve the issue w/the business before I rented the chicken suit
Feel free. While you're at it, could you be more amusing than a *syringe? That would be great.
Fuck. I must have forgot to hit 'Post Anonymously.'
I never have to read another MS settlement/court case on slashdot again.
I paid for software that I could not use. I still have not got my refund from Microsoft for the garbage they forced on my system.
They should have to pay the people who lost money, not be allowed to give it to people not effected. If I run into your car and damage it, do I get to give my girlfriend a spare computer instead of paying to fix the harm I did to you?
Of course Microsoft says that the settlement would cost them lots of money, but it would be retail including retail price of software...not actual cost to them.
But, even so, it gets MS products infront of children -- advertising???
Fight Spammers!
I want to lend an opinion to this class action suit. I feel I have been wronged by MS and want compensation.
Where do I file? What jurisdiction?
Unitarian Church: Freethinkers Congregate!
Microsoft got a slap on the wrist from the Feds. They figure that the Bush administration will be firmly in their corner. Because of all the fallout and implications between Enron execs and the Bush administration. Bush may want to do something to show that he's not a pushover for business. Even if he doesn't pull strings to go after MSFT, I'm sure that he won't do anything to help them. Congressmen will probably think twice about helping out a huge corp in the near future as well.
Jesus used to be my co-pilot, but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him.
How about a compulsory $37-billion donation to the Free Software Foundation as punishment?
From cnnfn there is a mention that the judges reasons are:
Judge Motz said he was not satisfied that there was enough value to the settlement and that the charitable institution would have been insufficiently funded.
Further, Judge Motz said the settlement "would raise antitrust concerns from the perspective of other software manufacturers" because the donation of free software could be construed as "court-approved predatory pricing."
Both these issues have been raised by many people and posted here on slashdot in the past.
When I worked at a small, non-major retail chain of a computer store, Windows 95 OEM licenses were about $60CDN compared to the Retail box licenses at $120CDN. (These were COST prices, not tag prices..) This store could sell OEM licenses w/ the computers they built and sold. We were in a contract which forbid us to sell them w/ out a computer w/ Windows 95 installed on it before it was sold to the customer. So yes, that is substantially cheaper, but not the $15 you put it at. I'm assuming if the company was Dell, Compaq, or IBM then the licenses could very well be as low as $15. Or maybe when I worked there I did not fully understand how this all worked.
It also does not seem obvious on the charges of overpricing as well. I can't say "hey Look! OS/2 was selling for $100 and Windows was selling for $500!" that wasn't the case as you pointed out.
Hmm... ultimately we won't know until those lawyers pull out their evidence.
Takes a lawsuit for the hopes of bringing to poorest schools up to date with technology, even if it would be provided by the biggest software monopoly in the world.
Now those hopes are gone.
Whats new.
...bill gates should be made to personally apologize to every person who bought his os face to face.
Walk with Music;
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Of course to the customers.
Donating worthless MS software to schools as a form of settlement would be completely inappropriate.
That would not have punative compensation effect - just the opposite: a perfect opportunity for free promotion for MS.
Let the suckers pay... and quick, before the US$ becomes MS$...
Letting MS settle cases this way would create a terrible precedence: it would actually encourage MS for unlawful practices... The guiltier they are, the more opportunity they had to infest more schools, more future customers at a very fragile age.
If I was a parent in a school where MS tries to do this dirty marketing gimmick: targetting kids in a classroom for free to "compensate" for illegal corporate behaviour, I would launch a child molestation class action law suit.
God bless all the remaining smart judges.
p.s. I really hate that
... underdogs, and people like underdogs...
:)
I'll agree with this piece.
[apple] never encouraged tinkering and hacking by individuals
The entire development environment and documentation library for Mac OS-X is both free and pretty darn spiffy. Visual Studio is something like $500 to $1000 depending who you are and how you get it. Heck, my first Apple came with schematics and ROM assembly listings.
At least Microsoft freely release GW-Basic in the early days...
Apple gave away Basic before Microsoft even existed. Never for Macintosh, but I believe that was more for strategic reasons. Apple needed to force the applications to a dramatically higher level of usability. This required the armys of evangelists and much arm twisting. "modern" mid '80s gui applications were not going to be thrown together in the Basic of the days.
Microsoft has also supported the porting of Perl and Python (via Activestate) to the Windows environment.
Yes, now we can see if that was the embrace before the extend.
Microsoft's software has been typically cheaper than Apple's
I have no idea in what universe this is true. Actually, there is very little in the way of good comparisons. Office $400, Appleworks $99. But Appleworks is feature poor compared to Office. It does everything I need, so its a good deal for me (well, $0, I buy low end Macs where it is included). If I needed the extras Office has this would be a worthless comparison. IE? No comparison. Apple is still forbidden from suggesting that there may be other browsers much less making one. iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD? No competition. Likewise there are loads of MS apps with no comparison. OS prices? Upgrades are similarly priced. Development tools? No contest.
Remember Apple 's sordid attempt to foster clones?
Yes. Apple gave them the hardware reference designs and OS in the delusion that the cloners would make a wider variety of machines and attack niches. The cloners just built the reference designs with minor tweaks and sold them in to apple's highest margin market (early adopters) because the cloners could start selling the newer faster processers while they were still in short supply and Apple with their larger market had to wait for production to ramp up. (I believe at one point Apple was buying all the initial production of higher speed processors at a premium and warehousing them so they could get the fast machines out first. When you have to pay a premium to keep faster processors away from your users in order to promote your platform something has gone wrong.) The media savaged Apple for offering slow machines. Apple lost sales. The platform didn't gain . Apple didn't revoke the cloners licenses (except one, they bought that back) they just raised the OS price so the cloners paid the same per machine for the OS as apple. Without the OS subsidy to pocket the cloners left the business.
I am glad tho that I do not have to pick between the lesser of two evils
Me too. I suspect any corporation with a 90%+ market share will be bad for the users. God knows what GPL v9 will look like when free software has 90% of the market.
Minor correction. Still a nice piece of money.
Micorsoft-opoly...
BillGates: [rolls dice] = 8
BillGates: sweet, doubles!
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8.
Chance: "Place token to nearest anti-trust judge. If he is unowned you may buy him from the bank, otherwise come up with new settlement plan."
BillGates: damn!
BillGates: [rolls dice] = 5...
Step 1: Go to law school, become a lawyer.
Step 2: Realize that step 1 took so long that [the trial is long over | MS.gov will have you put to death for that filing]
Step 3: There's no step 3!
Just keep running Windows. When the software breaks don't fix it. It's just a matter of time and your wish will come true!
"How about a free copy of a linux or Free/NetBSD distro to everyone who can supply ....Make MS buy them from Redhat, Mandrake, Suse and all./
I'd rather Microsoft have nothing whatsover to do with Linux, Red Hat, or any other open-source related entity. Come on now, do you really want RedHat and others to have Microsoft as their main distributor????
Bill Gates didn't get rich without being aggressive. Just watch; they'd follow your idea and through some trick or usurpation Microsoft would end up controlling RedHat, Mandrate, SuSe, and the rest instead of just being the distributor.
You don't have to do this to prove you're the good guy. (Or maybe you do.)
actually cost Microsoft... about $.10 a CD....
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
ban microsoft from any 'innovation' for a period no less than 5 years, or until they fix all the flaws in their current operating system.
Microsoft would become the prime distributor of Red Hat. Now, you have a big tentacle of the Gates empire in the Linux world, where before Microsoft was content just to snipe at the gates. Do you really want Microsoft involved in any aspect of the Linux world at this time????
Ya, but between whippings Ballmer would shout
"Developers! Developers! Developers!"
Please, spare us the spectacle...
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
Perhaps now MS's punishment will be more typical for this type of suit: They will have to provide $20 off coupons for Windows XP. Consumers almost never see any cash from these types of suits.
...a judge that didn't get snowed by Microsoft legal sharpies and PR flaks. I'm surprised that MS's laywers didn't drag out a ``we're doing this for the children'' argument. Heck, donating to schools was only a step away from that. And the judge didn't fall for it. There may yet be hope...
I think I'm gonna have a few beers in celebration tonight.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
All a school system has to do is get one (1) copy of the Linux distribution of their choice. Cost: $0.00 if donated, $50.00 max if purchased. Install this on a bunch of low-end Pentiums (or is it Pentia?) which could be procured for next-to-nothing. Much cheaper than Microsoft junk.
Voila! They're up to date with technology. They can even use StarOffice/OpenOffice to save/read Microsoft Office files.
Microsoft's VP of Customer Service is Helen Waite. If you are having problems with their products go to Helen Waite.
12-18 months, the disinformation and the continued disappearance of huge amounts
of peoples retirements savings.. into the pockets
of Gates, Paul Allen, Ashcroft, Ballmer, Crooked Federal Officials, FInancial Services executives, *objective* independent auditors / accounting firms willing to destroy documents, etc.. I reckon Greenschpawn and his IMF buddies have moved their booty over seas for good measure??. Who knows, clever bunch though..
References:
http://www.billparish.com/presslist.html
Ban Yugo from building fine luxury automobiles
Ban Hillary Clinton from telling the truth
Ban McDonalds from the realm of haute cuisine
Ban Atari from building videogame consoles
Ban Ted Kennedy from wearing pants at parties
Ban Americans from getting enthusiastic about soccer
Ban the Catholic Church from choosing Protestant popes
Very effective, that!
Rebates? There is a certain high % who never even send in rebates. After they are sent in, the companies often take months to satisfy them, sometimes only after repeated reminders.
If Windows is outlawed, only outlaws will use Windows.
Apple gave away Basic before Microsoft even existed.
On the Apple II? Who's version of Basic was that (hint: Applesoft basic)?
The way class action suits normally are resolved in the U.S. are as follows:
Company X illegally overcharges consumers, say one million consumers at $100 each. Class action lawyers file suit 'on behalf' of consumers. After many years, and many appeals, a settlement is reached and damages are awarded. Consumers are asked to fill out 20 pages of paperwork in order to receive a $25 off coupon the next time they make a purchase of $3000 or more from Company X. Offer good for next six months. And the class action attourneys split $25 million in fees.
Having Microsoft donate money to poor schools is a great idea -- iff it can be done in a way that that doesn't reduce competition.
[Insert pithy quote here]
In my opinion, this is not much different than offering a bribe to the other side's lawyers to get their support in settling the case for peanuts. Would it be OK if the plaintiffs offered to pay M$ lawyers to persuade M$ to make a $5 billion cash settlement offer??? I think not.
M$ is not the only company that is allegedly trying to settle class action suits with charitable contributions & paying the plaintiff's attorneys. To me, this is a dubious practice that should be squashed.
Thank you Judge J. Frederick Motz for restoring a glimmer of sanity back into our collective culture conscience. Microsoft's newest software products may be so bloated, so loading or running them effectively on the outdated computers that were apart of the proposed settlement, may be impossible. Without your decision, Microsoft may be dumping old software products, worts and all, into our poorest school systems for use on the outdated computers . The recipients of Microsoft's generosity may well have found out the cost of Microsoft's gifts may be more than they could afford.
This article here discusses how Microsoft's decision to release only it's lobbying of law makers in the executive branch, and not Congress, probaby was detrimental to it's case.
Yes, now we can see if that was the embrace before the extend.
Sure, Microsoft will be able to embrace and extend Perl and Python, but because those programs are copylefted, Microsoft will have to release the source code to any modifications the company makes, preventing the third step (extinguish) from happening.
Will I retire or break 10K?
First of all, the case is about Microsoft's involvement in Anti-trust violations, it has nothing with "poor children". Too often, "poor children" and "charitable foundations" are used as excuses to wiggle out of legal ramifications. I point you to a recent U.S. Bank lawsuit, where the major bank sold private information to third party companies. The bank settled by donating some of the money to "charitable foundations", thus claiming it back on their taxes, leaving all of those people who's privacy was violated in the very same place, abused and un-compensated. If they wanted to donate their money to a "charitable foundation", let them sign the goddam check.
There are other blatant screw you effects of the M$ price structure as well. Consider corporate sales. If the purchasing department has only authorized computer purchases from certian OEMs and all of those OEMs are forced to charge you the M$ $40 cut regardless of the OS that comes with the computer, you can argue that the corporate victim has been overcharged $40 times the number of computers they wish to buy, say 2000 per year. That adds up to $40,000 per year per company. Wowser.
When you add it all up, you get the billions of M$ bucks in the bank that M$ employees think they will get for their stock. Enron's implosion makes me worry for them. Get out while you can!
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
The tobacco industry did not "just get tired of it."
They had successfully defended every suit, basically arguing that either nobody knew smoking was dangerous, nobody had proved that smoking was dangerous to their satisfaction, or the "victim" was an idiot who ignored the warning labels on every package of cigarettes.
Then they lost a case. Too much evidence that they targeted teens unable to make an informed decision, that they deliberately made the product addictive, it doesn't matter.
Suddenly they were looking at hundreds of thousands of suits every year from people with lung disease. Their reputation as a "hard target" was in tatters. Many potential jurors were pissed off at their decades of foot dragging, at their use of cartoon characters - Joe Camel was recognized by something like 98% of 6th graders, comparable to Mickey Mouse and far more than any real figure. They were looking at potential liability in the billions of dollars.
So they made an informed decision - something they denied their customers - to settle with the government. One massive payment, and immunity from further civil suits. It was nothing more than a decision intended to minimize their costs.
MS knows that the judgement that they violated antitrust law makes them a far "softer" target than before. They tried to short-circuit the process with a similar settlement, but they got greedy.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
The judge was unhappy with the "private suits?" Great. Now MS will just release "public suits" for us to buy. In a year from now all of our clothing will be covered by .NET!
.NET virus in it that undoes your zipper when you're not looking?
Will that have a
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--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
If the federal judge accepts the DOJ-M$ "settlement", then none of this will matter.
.NET vs Java, etc... then preventing that company from dominating a single segment of the economy: education, will be practically meaningless.
The potential impact of Microsoft getting off virtually scot-free by the DOJ will overwhealm the positive impact of this settlement being struck down.
Should Microsoft be allowed to continue these exclusive arrangements with OEM's, the leveraging of Windows into other margets, gauging for Office, leaving out Java support in XP as well as plguins for IE, forcing users to ask for permission to upgrade their PCs on XP home edition, rigging ZD Net polls on
How many entrepreneurs have been dissuaded or discouraged from writing software because of Microsoft stiffling innovation? (hardly any commerical companies make consumer operating systems anymore) How many once dynamic and cutting-edge products have stagnated once Microsoft gained a 90% share? If they dominate more of the industry, we're going to see even more inferior products. The only good software M$ ever came up with was when they had to compete with another company.
Having the school settlement struck down is a small victory, one that pales in comparison to the potential losses that would occur if the colluded DOJ settlement is accepted.
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What the hell are you talking about?
How about when they make an API from perl and python to the Windows APIs? How about when these APIs so attactive to the windows python and perl programmers that they depend on them?
Sound like J++ yet?
It won't be about owning the interpreters. Thats just code and anyone with $36B in the bank can have code written. It will be about owning the minds of the developers. They need the bulk of software developers to believe Windows is integral to computing.
The Register's article adds a good quote from the judge:
A district court judge has rejected Microsoft's proposed settlement in the private law suits brought against the company.
Microsoft's $1.1 billion giveaway of computers software to US schools would constitute "court-approved predatory pricing," if approved, said Judge Motz. He didn't, and it's back to the drawing board for The Beast.
The cynical proposal was criticised on the grounds that would extend Microsoft's monopoly into the education market, which has been a loyal Mac stronghold. Over 40 per cent of US schools use Macintosh computers.
Motz gave a strong signal that Microsoft's revised proposal would have to be a lot more generous: he deemed there was "insufficient value" in Seattlement (Private Edition)Version 1.0.
A year ago Motz dismissed 38 suits from customers who had acquired Windows as part of an OEM bundle, even though state law allows such an 'indirect' acquisition to be treated as a direct relationship.
Bootnote:The term 'Seattlement' was contributed by a reader from the Lichtenstein.
"
Today's vices may be tomorrow's virtues.
After this article and the immediately preceding one (CD copy protection), I'm feeling pretty damn good about the world. What a way to end the week! It seems we're not going to hell in a handbasket quite yet...
Just goes to show, there actually *are* sane people in the legal and business worlds.
+1 Insightful, -1 Troll. What can I say, I'm an Insightful Troll.
Hoo-ray for small miracles, an actual judge with sense not to be bamboozled by 300 lawyers (and a complicit prosecution) in a case involving MS. I think Apple, Red Hat, et al. deserve credit where credit is due in this by effectively presenting to the court why this would've been a bad deal. C|net also has an updated story on this, sugesting the possibility of a greater-than $1B penalty for MS now from Judge Motz' comments.
But this case, like the antitrust case, is not yet over. While we can't do anything to influence the next flimsy settlement for price-gouging MS will probably try to come out with here, maybe we can make a difference in the antitrust case by writing the DoJ. Public comment period ends January 28, 2002. Do write, but polite & reasoned letters only, please.
Does this mean I can sue Coke for all that ink on the outside of the can I didn't want?
If you bought it, YOU BOUGHT IT. You paid their price. The fact that it was part of a package including a computer is inconsequential.
Besides, wouldn't the damages be limited to the price paid? How much, exactly, did Windows cost you? I doubt it's as much as you're wanting back...
The point was that schools don't need more handouts from anyone. There is a brand new high school here with 600 students. It cost $36 million to build. Excuse me, but WTF!?!? If the building stands as a school for 20 years, that's $12,000 per student (for four years) just for construction costs. Give that money to a private school and they'll probably educate three times as many students twice as well.
The emphasis has shifted from spending money on hiring good teachers and good supplies to building impressive buildings so that taxpayers can "see" where their money is going.
BTW, 580 Billion is about $12,800 per student if you assume that during that time about 1/6 of the US population attended school. Keep in mind that's ONLY federal money and doesn't include state or local contributations.
You want to know how to fix schools? Pay teachers. Pay them well enough to attract some real talent to the area. I mean something in the neighborhood of $80,000-$100,000 for those with Masters degrees and teaching certificates.
Then, you tell the Federal government to F!#& off. You open it up so that if a parent is not happy with the school, they can remove their student and send them to another public school or even to another district or a private school. This way, the bad schools are driven out by market forces and the good schools are rewarded by more students. Reward the good and let the market drive out the bad.
The system we have now rewards schools and teachers who perform poorly.
You also encourage (by tax credits, which != tax deductions) private citizens to contribute to private schools.
I agree that the education system in this country is seriously screwed up. It's not for lack of money though, it's because that money has been grossly mismanaged, partially by the beaurocratic regulations associated with federal funding.
Then it says, if you agree to these terms press ok (where you continue installing) or No, you contact them for a refund (and the install aborts).
Also, Micorosoft forced the manufacturer to include Windows with most systems sold.
¦ ©® ±
Did I mention there were booth babes involved?
Micrsoft didn't propose that settlement.
Someone on the other side did. It must have sounded good to MS, so they ran with it.
So, the judge said No to a settlement that MS was agreeable to, and that the OTHER side proposed. Had he/she said yes, it would have been over.
Instead, a bunch of lawyers will make more money, a few political careers will be furthered, and really, nobody will get any money out of MS except some lawyers (on both sides).
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
When I first saw this settlement, my first thought was Ï hope it is not put through!" Then I realized it had absolutely no chance of gettign through. A judge simply won't prevent a plaintif from being able to claim damages in many non-related cases (exception being class-action suits).
This was just legal posturing, IMO, but then, IANAL.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
None of the 'individuals' is rally a private citizen - they are states, big business and other software companies all hoping to gain material and political gain out of the case.
/. readers with any real world business experience would not settle it either - at this level you dont need to settle and it is counter productive to do so (hint i worked in tobacco for 10 years and i know of what i speak)
Point in fact is that MS will never settle the case, as any of the
2 MS stories today - and they dont dominate your thoughts do that.
How DO you spell obsessed again ?
Sure, wouldn't it be great if a company like Microsoft, with billions of dollars in profits, could donate money to poor schools? It would give the impression that even the most egregious and predatory forms of Capitalism can make a positive difference to the lower classes. But then again you don't need a class-action lawsuit to spur this kind of charitable activity. If Bill Gates has ever been truly concerned about the state of poor schools - losing his collagen-enhanced beauty sleep over it - he could have donated millions of computers and free software years and years ago, further cemented their market dominance, and probably even gotten away with it. By tying this activity to the class-action lawsuits Microsoft can rest assured that from now on nobody will trust them in such a charitable action ever again. They've basically screwed themselves out of an excellent marketing opportunity.
And this to me is the central issue: Regardless of the good-act-overcoming-bad-history aspect of Microsoft's proposed settlement it's totally "off-topic" and a flagrant waste of the court's time. Meanwhile how much bloody *interest* has Microsoft's ill-earned profit gained? I hope the court's keeping tabs, because it should be compounded daily.
And if I may rant a bit more....
...Do they actually *pay* attorneys to come up with this kind of shit? M$ should just hire a bunch of Professional Morons and then they'd be able to commend them for the great work they're doing. They could throw in monthly cash bonuses for the most blatant misuse of the word "innovation."
Seriously, the more I see the way Microsoft's cadre of hired monkeys behave the more convinced I become that Steve Ballmer's testicular tumors are sprouting heads and getting Law degrees.
-- thinkyhead software and media
Since representatives of Microsoft claim they were only emulating AT&T in their disclosures perhaps the Justice Department should do their part to fulfill the metaphor.
-- thinkyhead software and media
- it records your CPU serial number
- it leaves some code on your HDD that can only be removed with a low-level format
- this information is related to a serial key
So what happens now is that MS has you!!! And if you change hardware your out of luck. And good luck affording XP. Did I hear Linux?I can't even imagine the jubilation and high five's that must have happened back at MS HQ after hearing of the proposed settlement. If you fall for conspiracy theories you could easily believe that Michael Hausfled was a paid double agent. He took a page out of Apple's marketing book, fine tuned it and called it a punishment. Roger Kay, an analyst with IDC, called the settlement "a huge victory" for Microsoft. "It's amazing to me how favorable this is to Microsoft".
Fortunately the judge saw this and put a halt it. He realized that +95% of the refurbished machines would run windows and that most school districts would choose Microsoft since they are interested in educating and it makes sense to teach the dominate prevalent technology. This would have done nothing to establishing competition in the market place, in fact, the opposite.
The text of Judge Motz' opinion can be found here: http://www.applecon.com/documents/ms_documents/MIC ROSOFTOPINION.FINAL11JAN02.pdf
It's called dumping. The japanese did it to us and successfully destroyed the domestic television industry before they were finally fined and sanctioned by the govt. It's illegal under GATT and various international trade treaties, and it would be ironic if the Japanese turn around and do to an American company what we did to some of theirs for doing the same disgusting thing.
you should think yourselves lucky (if you want to buy an XBox, that is.) Microsoft seem to think that $1=£1, and have set a UK price of £299. When you take account of our sales tax (VAT) that works out at $368.55
Chance card-Release new version of windows: collect $200 for each user you own.
House rules: players may influence results of community chest and chance cards in their favor by putting arbitrary amounts of money on free parking
Income tax: pay 10% of your income unless you're fucking the banker
Since Microsoft claims they're offering software at a discounted rate, Apple just needs to determine how much the discount is and offer their products to schools at the same discounted rate.
That will remove Microsoft's argument, make Apple look generous, and probably get them a bunch more sales.
Then I guess the next question is "Who is the Japanese equivalent of the FTC and how does one report these things to them?"
You're thinking Applesoft basic for the ][+, not Woz's original Integer basic for the ][... which was open source, with all the code publically available. If I'm not mistaken the entire source in assembly was listed in the first manuals?
If everyone was taught the 'pravda' that Gates invented BASIC and wrote the first Basic for Apple etc. ad nauseam, would it be true?
The first hit is free kids!
There are only three reasons to use Microsoft software:
I don't believe that most people are actually stupid. And most people aren't paid to use Microsoft products really. They are paid to get a job done. Their employers have chosen Microsoft, but they were paid to make that choice. So we are left with ignorance. Is it any wonder that Microsoft's marketting relies so heavily on Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt?
Law is just another economic variable. They will always infringe as long as the benefit from infringing is larger than the cost.
And this will always be true for Microsoft. No court will stop or slow them down. Only we customers and the wanabe competition can fight them.
The non US world has a better chance to rule out Microsoft because they affect them most:they pay the monopolistic fee, help spread the monopoly into other areas AND that money does not help their countries. It goes to the US straight away...in a forever lasting capital outflows.
And software costs are really expensive. For example, if brasil had no piracy and had 1 computer for every 5 brazilians, they'd need to license 50 million copies of the OS + Office, every 2 years, just to stay current. That'd be like 7 billion bucks a year (OS $100, Office $200)... not an option.
unfinished: (adj.)
What is it with you GPLers? If Microsoft wants to embrase and extend anything, no license is going to stop them. If they want perl with their own extensions, they'll essentially reverse-engineer it.
Windows 2000 & XP have IPSec installed. They could easially have added propritary extension onto it, but have not.
Your argument that the GPL is stopping ANYTHING BAD is really quite baseless.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant