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Pay to Play II - Project Entropia
Gonzago writes: "God knows how many hours I spent mining or chopping down trees while playing Ultima Online. The dedication (spelled a-d-d-i-c-t-i-o-n) I had to that game would have made me some serious cash if I applied it to a real life job. Now I can have my cake and eat it too! At least that's what the people behind Project Entropia would have me believe. Not only does the premise behind the game look cool, but players will trade amongst one another with real money. Anyone want to buy some armor?" There's an article on CNN which briefly covers the game's premise: pay the company for all the equipment you need in-game, and it all slowly degrades - Entropia, get it?
So, you basically give up real life to become a player in this game, which would eventually evolve to the point where you could buy a game (in the game) that would become your new life...
A redundant article, so I get to make a redundant post.
Selling virtual items in-game was pioneered by this text based MUD, which is financed entirely by sales of virtual items to players.
And since we're talking about "virtual addiction", take a look at their MUD Addiction Page. Now substitute the word "play" for the words "get high", and read it again. Scary, isn't it?
that the hardcore RPG'ers are either so stupid or addicted that they'll crank out the cash to feed their habit.
This could work two ways for me:
With the conversion being 10:1, and assuming the currencies don't fluctuate that means time with a prostitute will actually be attainable for me on a regular basis! Although, I don't know if I like the idea of her pimp DoS'ing me when I try to run off...
the article mentions that people who dont wish to give money to the game will still be able to play. I wonder if this means there will be a whole society of non paying gamers wandering the streets of the game, begging for handouts, thieving gold when they can to save up for a tunic...
Time for some tasty Shiner Bock!
Sounds like a perfect plan. Take advantage of humans' need for instant gratification (made possible by the Internet), and humans' addiction (made possible by computer games). Only this time, we're playing for keeps (real $).
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
They better make DAMN sure that nobody's cheating. It was bad enough when cheating ran rampant in games like Ultima Online, where in a few days some players were able to build up their characters and wealth when other players had to spend months to accomplish the same goals legitimately.
And just think about the PK'ing that will be going on. It used to be that people PK'ed because it gave them an ego boost. Now it can almost be equated to a real life mugging.
And in UO, items would mysteriously disappear. Close up your house one day and everything's there, then a server crash, come back in, its all gone. When frustrating things like this happen in a game where everything is virtual, about the most I can expect is to quit and deprive them of their $10 a month. But if I invested serious money in such a project and suddenly its all gone, that could be a serious problem.
To be ultimately viable, the company, however it works, has to somehow produce something, in such a way that they end up with more worth than what was put into it. I don't see this happening really, and at some point, when things peak out, there will be a falloff of revenue and things will slowly lose value and degrade.
However, if players can earn in-game dollars by completely real world tasks, then this could ultimately be a really cool way to offset employees. Instead of hiring employees, you have people play your game, and do your work in exchange for the privilage of playing. Think of all the source code projects you could crank out by gamers trying to one-up their in-game adversaries. There might be some potential here.
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
...whether I think that this is stupid and won't fly or cool, and I want to play, I can't definitely see how it would be cool to actually have a small chance of getting a monetary return on the time I spent paying a game instead of waving bye-bye to monthly fees. I wonder though, how imbalanced the game will be if you spent A LOT of money on stuff. Granted thsi is the way the real world works too, so does it then become less of a game and more like real life?
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
Cheating could now become a new organized crime facet- Hacking games to sell virtual items!
of course the real question is will people be actually able to play without anything more than the initial investment. I would definatly play if I could get by with ~$20 at the start and keep going from there.
Are they going to charge for the game itself?
Does anyone have any info on how secure this game will be? Can I add money to my account without paying?
IANAL, but imagine a beowulf cluster of in Soviet Russia all your belong are base to us welcoming the new SCO overlords.
free to play, no monthly access, no charge to get the software.
and they plan on making money on this how?
you invest $100 bucks in the game and then after one month they go bankrupt.
where is the profit plan in this?
Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things?
But the house always wins ...
Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org)
One of the reasons that many players of games have frowned on these practices in the past is that most of the time people with the cash to throw around like this are a$$Holes. Nothing makes a player madder than to have his carefully crafted player, who he has lovingly worked on for months, trashed because some 14 year old has a larger allowance than the gamers paycheck and bought a powerfull character just to kill other characters.
These kind of personalities have kept out of games like this traditionally because they did not have the personality and patience to develop a character of sufficient power to be a threat to other players. With this system it just comes down to a matter of cash, and those type of people alwasy seem to have cash.
My prediction is that this game will fail not based on game play but on the fact that most players will give up on it quickly as they become frustrated by the less socially adapted version of script kiddies that are let loose on them. While high cash players will make the game look good, it will still take 100,000 paying monthly customers. If a small percentage drive the rest off because of the type of people they are, and because they are to powerfull to be ignored, then the whole system will collapse.
Papa Legba come and open the gate
Remember the kid with three Quad-Xeons and a T1 to his house?
That hitman that just killed you with a sword that costs more than everything you own was hired by him.
1. If this game caught on, it may be possible to earn an actual income from this game...
2. If you were earning an income from this game, how would you report it on your income tax?
I signed up for beta testing many months ago in hopes of trying it out. I wasn't accepted into any of the pools but still held out hope of a public beta.
a sp
A couple of months back I received an email from the beta mailing list stating that they were going public with a "commercial beta test". This test would entail everyone paying in $10 to help test the ability of their servers to handle the financial transactions. This sounded quite contrary to their statements that there would be no need to put any money into the system. Here's a copy of the email:
Dear Sir/ Madam You have previously registered your interest to be a Beta tester for Project Entropia. MindArk is now preparing to start the commercial trial phase. An expanded panel of users will be selected to participate in the trials. Those are in the addition to the users that are already in the Beta phase II.
The commercial trial phase will include many of the planned features of the finished product. One of which is the financial system that has been creating ripple effects far beyond the MMORPG market. This financial system will be designed around real money exchanged into a virtual currency. Giving users a chance of actually make real money while inside the Project Entropia Virtual Universe.
Project Entropia will be free to obtain and use, only your connection fee to the Internet will cost you anything, there will be no monthly fees payable to MindArk. The fact that real money will be an issue in Project Entropia requires us to test this system to its full extent. This is why we are searching for users who are willing to insert small amounts of money in exchange for the chance to make much more.
In addition to the funds inserted into Project Entropia, MindArk will add funds to the Virtual World; an excess of 100.000 USD will be available for users to claim inside Project Entropia. This is a first in history; you can actually make a small fortune and at the same time be one of the first to explore Project Entropia.
The transfers are necessary for testing mass transaction flows through the system servers. And will help us track funds through the entire system, this is necessary to ensure that the system is fully functional when we head into the open phase. To achieve this, we elect to create a system where an avid user stands a fairly good chance of making a small fortune by testing this product.
Note that the transfer requirements does not constitute a change of the original specifications, Project Entropia will be free to obtain and use, according to everything that has been stated previously, nothing has changed on that point. This fee is only imposed to test the systems handling real money transactions. Without these tests we would have no chance of providing the service of real money transfers safely.
If you are interested in participating in these trials, you have to follow the link below. You will not be required to pay anything at this point. You only have to agree to the rules stated for a commercial trial participation. http://www.project-entropia.com/phase3/firstpage.
Kind Regards.
Erik Johnels Mindark AB
Note that they state in the email that they aren't going back on their word; this deposit is merely part of a test to see if their servers can handle the transactions.
After getting my hopes dashed by another MMORPG in the making (DAWN, which turned out to be complete vaporware) I was sceptical about the reality of Project Entropia...more so after they asked for money to participate in a beta. I went to their IRC channel to see if I could find anything out about previous betas, but all beta testers must abide by a strict non-disclosure policy which even prohibits them from saying they're in the beta (sounds a little too convenient). A lot of the talk in IRC was people planning their Project Entropia pyramid schemes.
Something tells me that this is simply a petty scam.
---
I didn't want to leave this space blank.
So addicted RPGers can spend their money online and play hookey from work all in an effort to see which one goes broke the fastest?
Utilities: "For failing to pay your bill, we're cutting the power to your house now."
RPGer: "But I've sent in 1000 PEDs each month!"
<lights go out>
Humorless sig goes here.
Is it just me or does this leave the game designers very much in control of the cash flow? I'm guessing we'll see:
-Extremely expensive stuff that decays rapidly but that the most addicted "must" have.
-Pushing the prices to the very limit of what people are willing to pay, we're talking monopoly here.
-Extremely little stuff you'll get any real money for (Bronze sword 10 PED, Giant-über-leet sword of Doom 10000 PED? Don't think so. prices will have to be much more uniform.)
Personally I don't like the idea of a company setting the value of the equipment. It's virtual world communism (all is controlled by the "state", in this case the company running the world), and I don't think it'll fly.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I guess I had better get busy writing my AI warrior avatar and send him and about a million of his friends to go make me some money!
Better set up shop in a state without sales tax, otherwise every transaction will need an instate/nonresident classification and collection. Hiring CPAs aren't trivial or cheap, and you'll still need them for the other state and fed taxes.
And you're collecting small payments mucho times. Think quarters for the parking meters, the populace hates micro payments.
Here's a mirror:
p roject-entropia.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/20020123013827/http://
As far as I can tell (I hate poorly designed websites), the company doesn't specifically allow Joe Luser to sell his wares on eBay. I wouldn't expect them to act any differently than Verant, and considering their business model, to be more aggressive about it (if possible). What it does do, is let Joe Luser spend his credit limit to get fakeBux(tm) to buy his in-game eq that degrades over time. Please note that nowhere does it say that real money is anything but a one-way transaction to the company. Great model for the company running the game, by the way.
However, what about game balance? I suppose trying to have balance in a MMORPG is a very tricky subject, but come on! It's bad enough when it's unsanctioned, cuts down on the number of people willing to buy and sell in real life. But when the game specifically allows buying eq with real money? Yeesh. Perhaps it will be fun for a little while...
And what happens when mommy find out that little Timmy's been using her Gold Card? (Bad Timmy, Bad!)
Give them an inch and they'll take a foot. Much more than that, you won't have a leg to stand on.
You can still sell items and game cash in several other games like Diablo 2 and Dark Age of Camelot. I guess the innovation in Entropy is that the monetary conversion is actually sponsored by the company, but practically this is nothing new.
Those things ruled. Actually I still have my Atari (and 100+ games). Atari 2600 Forever!
One of the main reasons I play computer games is to get away from this crap world where those who start rich get everything and the poor have to struggle to survive.
Why would I play a game that was just the same?
I'm happy to pay to play online games, but I really don't see how a game where the amount of money you have IRL directly affects your status in play could possibly be fun.
- Muggins the Mad
This seems like a HUGE liability. What happens when bugs in the game allow players to steal money? Or when someone DoS' the servers, and people can't play for days, or weeks? Many players would be quite angry that their personal finances would be interruped, perhaps even destroyed.
Of course it is not a good idea to rely on the game for your income, but there will be people that will do this, and they will complain loudly when problems arise.
I don't see how any lawyer would allow this - the liability is too great.
-InfoBot(drop@gw01.outer.se.gamenet)- Welcome to the official Project Entropia ;)
:)
;)
channel! If you need help, talk to one of the operators that is
present.
-InfoBot(drop@gw01.outer.se.gamenet)- Beta testers, please mind the NDA, no
beta talk in this channel.
<Quazion> Hello, after reading the website and not finding the System
requirements, i figure lets have a look on there IRC server.
<Quazion> anyone who can tell me anything on the sys requirements ?
<Jem|SoF> there are none set up
<Quazion> And why i am asking this is cause i want to know on which OS
platforms it will run.
<Jem|SoF> just tell what kind you have when you sign up for beta
<Quazion> I am not giving away my personal information if i dont even know if
it will run on my computer.
<Jem|SoF> hang on I"m on phone
<Fiyz> thats your problem quazion
<E_J|MA> Windows
<Jem|SoF> WOOHOO
<Jem|SoF> HI
<Jem|SoF> eJ
<Fiyz> lol e_j spoke his short words
<Fiyz> hes AWAY now jem
<Quazion> Fiys, isnt it normal to tell upfront, and it isnt my problem its
just one less user i guess.
<E_J|MA|AWAY> sortof...
[Users(#project-entropia:30)]
[ Quazion ] [ Feroce ] [ Jem|SoF ] [ Supadude|S] [ Max-Damage]
[ AlornenAFK] [ haywire ] [ Gonzago|ED] [ Azur ] [ Viper|FWR ]
[ Fiyz ] [ Lawryus|UP] [ Riposte ] [ TooBorg|So] [ AzHippy|al]
[ Rebellion ] [ vip ] [ Zanuff ] [ balu ] [ AwayELLER ]
[ coin|MA|aw] [@BARADDA|MA] [ Small ] [ CryHavok ] [@bornie|MA ]
[@E_J|MA|AWA] [ kevinvee ] [@DROK|MA|aw] [@InfoBot ] [@ChanServ ]
<Fiyz> uh you saying its not normal to tell your comp info for a beta sign up?
<Quazion> E_J|MA|AWAY you can confirm windows only ?
<Jem|SoF> he did
<Quazion> just double checking
<E_J|MA|AWAY> At first windows only.
<Fiyz> how bout Lindows?
<Jem|SoF> yes you do tell what kind of computer you have
<E_J|MA|AWAY> we ARE looking at porting it to LINUX. but that is WAY down the
road.
<Quazion> E_J|MA|AWAY thanks for the information.
<E_J|MA|AWAY> NP
<Quazion> And yes i am running Linux
<Fiyz> you should make it for Lindows
<Jem|SoF> HI E_J
A way to restore balance: you may be able to buy cool toys, but you won't have the experience points to use them with 100% effectiveness.
Well, it's not perfect, but the idea of a kiddie blindly firing his shiny new BFG-9000 amuses me...
I'd also make the really cool toys *really* expensive. Want that BFG? $100, please. Top-of-the-line armor? Another $75. Don't price things linearly. Well, maybe that's a bit much, but you get the idea.
I'll continue avoiding MMTSs (Massive Multiplayer Time Sinks) regardless...
null
If you need text styles to communicate then you don't have a message.
oooh, oooh, shoot your cum in my mouth so I can taste it, don't let it hit the floor and be wasted!
It's a little known fact that us gay Linux geeks don't get laid any more often than any other type of geek - which is to say never.
Better copyright it now! Haha
Rangers Lead the Way!
Jobs aren't designed to elicit that kind of response...
God knows how many hours I spent mining or chopping down trees while playing Ultima Online.
That's nothing; I had a 9-to-5 job driving a forklift on Shenmue. I even had to freaking COMMUTE. Only people who've finished this game will understand the flashbacks I get when I see a forklift irl...
Wonder if I can cheat and make a little cash?
Seriously, how many are going to think the same?
Blogging because I can...
I hope this doesn't happen with any new versions of The Sims. I'd hate to spend my hard earned [real] cash on a new [fake] stove, have a damn Sim burn my [fake] house down, then me be short on rent for my [real] apartment. Ugh! At least I have some [fake] friends, maybe I can crash over at their place?
proton != antielectron
Wow, another game that will be Windows-only on inital release. Please get over the fact that Linux has piss-poor game developer support.
Face the facts, Windows has the largest home desktop market share. Game companies are in business to make money. No profit = company goes under = no company = no new games. It is obvious that profit is a Good Thing; therefore, in order to maximize profit, it makes sense that the game will be written to run under the OS with the largest market share in order to maximize potential customers.
It's funny, even after the great dot com bomb, people still are convinced that profit doesn't matter.
www.enthea.org
This game shouldn't be called Project Entropia, it should be called Project Crack Cocaine because it will be nothing but addictive.
This game is just another way to waste time while at the same time THINKING you are working towards rewards. Who the fuck cares if you can make a few dollars on eBay selling crap. The only rewards you are working towards are a fat ass and your wife divorcing you.
Games like this are what is wrong with the world and I'll be damned if I am going to take part in it.
$ sed 's/communism/totalitarianism/g' < otherwise_valid_post
When all is controlled by the state, and the state is not the people, it's called totalitarianism, not communism. When the people is the state it's communism. NB that the world has never seen a true Communist State, yadda, yadda...
you can do this way better in real life. don't you know i already have about a dozen robotic clones so concincing, that they are working in jobs all over the world? they all get paid minimum wage keeping low profiles, but cumulatively, I make over a million dollars every month. Best of all, the next batch I'm building will actually build more bots. Of course they look EXACTLY identical to those "normal" pimple faced kids you normally find working minimum wage jobs.
Although, they supposedly had it first :)
;) ;)
;)
I think it's a great idea but I would have done some things different. First, I would have made it flat-rate. $10(or maybe more so a small portion of it can go to running the game) a month and I would *never* allow more money to be put into the game. This would mostly keep the rich people from being the most powerful. (the only work around would be multiple accounts, which would be disallowed and anyone caught doing it, banned and canceled)
Money would be allowed to be transfered out of the game though. (If you have $100 worth of game currency, you can ask for a check or pay your next month's fee)
I think the whole idea is *gambling* and thus should be subject to all gambling laws. (on a less serious note, get the mob to oversee things and then you won't have to worry about cheaters
I think if everyone's accounts were mirrored on a seperate computer and the only data exchanged were transactions, that could keep most dupe bugs from succeding. (Joe Cheater attempts to duplicate his uber-ring-of-regeneration which is going for $20 to most players.... he successfully creates a second ring. Later the server checks this against the records of the seperate computer and sees there's no record of Joe paying for another ring, transferring any money to someone else or buying the ring from the system. He's flagged and investigations start.
Of course you'd have to have a whole bunch of legal stuff, such as the rights of the consumer to challenge any judgements. And a legal team the size of Enron's
I think if someone took it to the casino types and pitched this game right... it could happen and be big. (I get the feeling entropia won't do so well) Someone mentioned the addiction earlier. Online games are like drugs. (Gambling is too) People KILL others because of the addiction. They lock their kids in closets because of it. Mix both of them together and people will sell their souls and lives, family friends all to play.
(yah sounds kind of evil huh? Kinda why I wouldn't create it even if I had the opportunity)
already outstrip real ones. This article claims that Everquests ( a similar MMORPG ) platinum pieces are wort more than the Yen - people have been playing EQ for years in order to make a living. At one point I heard someone was making about $10,000 per month ( that is extream though ). However EQ does NOT tie its virtual economy to the real world which is why PE is different and exciting.
Personally I cant wait to get a job as a gnome slayer in some virtual world *chuckle*. Beats my current bug slaying job any day.
An important question begs to be asked: Can I rob these said banks Bonnie & Clyde style?
Uh, it's called preview tard, and is it such a great experiment that you have to actually TEST a Slashdot post?
Uhhh.. following the URLs leading to their site is an altogether unpleasant experience. The site is ultra commercial in the way that it tries to sell me something, however unclear what that "something" actually is. All links open up a new browser window .... which gives a sorta porno site aura. Maybe they want to sell me a subscription to their super-game-a-4d-experience-newsletter ... or maybe it's something else.
And finally ... with 4-5 browser windows and yet no meat, they want me to _login_/create an accout.
I say go away. Any game manufacturerer with such a stiff attitude on the site are bound to produce a boring game ... in the lon run.
Instead of wasting your time playing a game that lets you mimick life, why not take a stab a life itself? Feel like going to a bar in a virtual world? Why not go to one in the real, physical world, where your date, if you pick one up may actually be REAL.
I understand the concept for a MUD where you get to kill monsters, etc, but this game emulates LIFE. It's good as an AI project, but please people, you don't need to EMULATE life in order to LIVE life!
Moderate down on whim.
That post was not redundant! It was relevent and informative, and (worst of all) interesting! You call yourself a troll? For shame!
Well, I've been to their offices. I applied for a job as a programmer there -- which I was then offered (first assignment; work on the GUI) -- but turned down because I felt that it was way too uncertain (aka 'doomed').
So, I can confirm that the game does indeed exist, or at least, that a game was being developed about a year ago. :-)
Anyway, the irony is that the offer I took instead lead to me being laid off just recently, so according to Murhpy's Law I guess P:Entropia will go on to be very successful, and I will sit here like a bitter man wondering, why oh why didn't I go there instead.
Belief is the currency of delusion.
Too see if you also want to do those things IRL, maybe i could check if it works to say to a girl "Wanna Fuck?" in a virtual bar first. Instead of gettings slapped in the face IRL ?
Quazion..
Losers like myself are screwed the first time some millionaire decides to pay them $500,000 to be able to re-enact some Hitlerian nightmare. I can already see the invoice.
$500,000 Supreme totalarian command of medium-large nation.
$250,000 Weapons of mass destruction 10 years ahead of any other developing nation.
$100,000 Impressive cadre of NPC's, minus ethical/moral scripting.
$79.95 Fascist uniform design and tailoring.
$999.95 K-line authority for up to 50 standard subscribers per month.
$4995.95 Immunity from TOS, including all harassment, cruelty and anti-social policies.
FREE "I'm not God, even though I play one on Entropia MMPOG."
If you've ever played Everquest, or any of the other MMORPG, and hung out on the message boards, you know the kind of fights that have started over those games.
Adding real money to the mix will make those fights look like spitballs vs nuclear weapons.
Just like gambling .. In the end, Entropia gets ALL the money. Well, most of it .. you might sell some stuff, but in the end you'll still be behind. The House always wins!
-B
Not that this wasn't entirely predictable.
One steady economy that arose on UO was lumber and ingot supply. Due to the skill point cap, Bowyers/tinkers/armourers/weaponsmmiths didn't want to also use up skill points for mining/lumberjacking since that would restrict them from learning combat skills. To fill this void, lumberjacks and miners sprung up selling lumber and ingots on eBay. They can pretty much make a living at it if they can drum up some loyal consumers (by being always ready to supply goods to satisfy their demand and being honest) to keep a steady flow of goods.
Do a search on eBay ... I think that a lot of people would be suprised to see how much of this sort of thing goes on day to day.
Look, you appear to be a pretty smart guy, but your site is one of the saddest, and funniest, things I've seen in a long, long time. You're insane.
From January to September of 2001 I was employed by MindArk AB in Gothenburg, Sweden, doing some of the game design work, especially bunches of scripting in an odd in-house OO language they made up themselves so that even the designers could produce useful code. ..which, I suppose, in essense means that there were no designers... but I suppose I had better take care what I say about my former employer lest they sue me or something.
Not that I'm really afraid they would, 'cause I would sue them right back. I didn't particularily enjoy working at MindArk. Oh, the people were nice, especially the ones that got fired whenever some high-up thought they looked too scruffy from working overnights. Whoops, there I go with the legally flammable stuff again. Thing is, MindArk like firing people who get sick and stay at home to take care of themselves. This might sound natural and reasonable to some of our US readers, but here it's illegal practice. Here in Sweden a company is legally bound to monitor the health of employees, because if they don't, they can be forced to pay for work-related damages. If they DO monitor health, dealing with sickness is a paid by the state, so there's no cost attached.
MindArk doesn't like doing things by the book though. One co-worker was fired for working over night, bumming out on the couch when the brass came to visit. Nevermind the fact that he just got the community forum online, that was apparently secondary. Then there's me, who originally was proud enough to think that I was (also illegaly) fired for being too critical.. turns out I had had one flu too many (no, I don't drink). After that, I also heard that the most driven of the artists got fired, and the effect these kinds of things have on co-workers.. well, I don't have to tell you, do I?
But I suppose most of you want to know about THE GAME, right? Well, that's where I don't want to go. I probably can't say jack squat about the game. If I did, I'd better play some Frank Black "Men In Black" real loud and hope they mistake me for one of them when they come knocking speaking in legalese.
However, I'm a clever guy.. what I can't say I can still insinuate, so read carefully between the lines here. I may only have 4 years of experience in the business, and granted that P:E was my first and only MMORPG, and the work I did was partially generic sound system design and partially extremely high-level theoretic community system design (that I doubt anyone will read my documentation for, or implement my classes for) but ..did you see the guy here on /. who said that the NDA "sounds a little too convenient"? Have you noticed how few have ever even seen the game? I've seen it. Eddy has seen it, so it does exist.. but how come nobody has really played it and told us about it yet? I can't answer that because I would get sued. I can't suggest an answer to that. Too bad because I could probably have told the lot of you a bunch of interesting stuff.
What I think I am allowed to say however, is that I will not be playing Project: Entropia. Maybe nobody ever will. Maybe I already said too much.
/ Per
/ Per
I've seen several of my friends play MMOs and have tried one myself (Anarchy Online) and we've shared experiences.
One of the problems I forsee is that MMOs have a tendency to "change the rules" as time goes on. Without a well established manner of determining certain game behavior (weapon/armor/combat interactions, etc.), you invite LOTS of people to bitch whenever the rules are changed. In all MMOs that I know of, combat/armor/weapon rules change to promote game balance. Imagine how pissed people will be when the Leet Sword of Lesser Monster Slaying they just bought with REAL MONEY gets nerfed.
Had some strategy/puzzle/luck games that you could play with other players.
.85 rate or some such is more likely. Though 1 : .75 is what I would expect them to charge.
/STRICTLY/ necessary, it just hastens things up a bit. It will ensure that not everybody all at once never ends up with the Armour Of invincibility and never die or need to buy another item again.
:)
Basicaly it was like this.
Say a 4 player game.
Everybody anted up 25 cents. The winner got 75 cents and the website pocketed 25 cents.
Basicaly a slight 'fee' or 'tax' is imposed on to every transaction to ensure that the company does indeed make some money.
Sure you can likely hunt down that Great Super Duber Uber Sword in the Forest Of Really Really Nasty Critters, but then after your 5 or 6 hours of work you will go into the town and sell it to some dude who is paying $5 real life for it.
The exchange rate system is likely NOT 1 to 1. A 1 :
In other words if you put $5 real life into the games currency, expect to only get $3.75 out.
That means that if you get 100units (whatever cash, I forget what it is called, read the article, no memory. ^_^ ) for $10, and you pay some dude 100units for his Super Duber Uber Armor, and that dude that withdrawls 100units from the game, he will only get $7.50 in real life cash.
::shrugs::
Company pockets $2.50 for your 5 or 6 hours of server usage (not half bad, heh) and since items are guarnteed to degrade, there is no chance of all of the system ever reaching an inert economy, there will always be money flowing in and out of the system, and with each transaction in and out of the system the company in charge of the system will be collecting a little bit of money.
Actualy having items degrade is not
In Ragnarock Online though, tons of Zeny (the games form of internal only cash) was being spent for some time on mere collectors cards (doh) that did absolutly nothing at all other then, uh, well, they actualy did absolutly nothing!
If the creators of this new game can learn how to properly manage fads and whatnot and manipulate supply and demand, they could make a FORTUNE off of these things.
Remember those electronic collectable card games that all bombed awhile back? Yah the ones that wanted you too pay money for booster packs? Heh.
If they can setup such a system within their game and actualy make it successful. . . .
Think Pokemon but with almost *ZERO* production costs.
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
What does the "will of the editors" have to do with anything. They just want to make it easier for serious readers to filter out crap from people like you. But if you post non-crap, that confuses the whole issue. THIS IS NOT FAIR
No.
Well okay, if you do manage to rob the in-game bank, they will send the off-game cops to your door and bring you into an off-game courtroom for fraud.
/ Per
/ Per
You need a life, a real one i mean. nobody will ever pay you to play.
This story is my favorite:
Yes, trading imaginary fantasy items represented by 1's and 0's will spawn a whole new industry with enourmus cashflow because of the economic value it creates, this new market will be the primary source of income for thousands of families who will live in maximum luxury all their lives because the demand for armours is so high in some silly computergame
All of the game designers working at MindArk have read the Habitat Lessons, I helped them to it.
No, wait.. Correction: All of the game designers who worked at MindArk when I left there in Septeber 2001, had read it. I do not know how many of them remain and how many were replaced by recent college graduates with Delphi skills and breasts.
And no, I have nothing against women in the business, I would like more women game designers to be employed based on their skill. It's just a funny fact of life that MindArk have gone from 2 to 5 female employees in less than 6 months, and all of those new recruits being in the system design area.
/ Per
need to get a life and get the hell out more. why the fuck do all of you molest children all the time anyhow? god damn you jewish pricks...
fucking faggots.
-------------------------------------------------
charlton heston is more of a man than yo
let me break it down for you. the comment you just posted is offtopic flamebait. now you're a troll. there is no longer any difference between you & me. a troll is not someone who proclaims themselves to be a troll but rather someone who is labelled by the administration as such. i'm trying to take back the word, the same way the gays have taken back faggot. you can now post as much insightful stuff that the users want to read as you want, and you'll still be a troll, forever. just like i do. just like i am.
-s.
From the CNN.com article.
Is there any truth to this? How could they possibly complain about not making any money on transactions when these are the players that would sooner go without food for a few days, rather than not paying their UO/EC bill? And as far as it detracting from the game... it's just a reflection of capitalism. Some people are willing to pay for virtual goods with their time and others, with their money. I personally play RPGs for the fun of building up my character. The entertainment is in the journey, not the destination. But the people who buy powerful characters, don't (generally) detract from my game play. So, what's the problem?
Entrepreneur : (noun), French for "unemployed"
A cheat code to rule them all
make Linux, not Microsoft. sin(beast) = -0.809016994374947424102293417182819
Think about it... They need a system that handles real money and thus should be 100% secure against cheaters, therefore security by obscutrity is not the way.
They do not intend to sell any copy of the game itself, just the in-game money should be payed. Therefore, they don't have anything to lose from open-sourcing it.
By going open-source they could ensure that (if the game is successful enough) it would be ported to other operating systems.
After the game has a substantial number of users, they could also open the source of the server software and thus getting the development for free. Better still, they could give virtual money to code contributors (that in turn could be cashed in for real money).
OTOH, I think the decay model is not that fun, as it's not really like real life, and people won't be that eager to pay real money for something soon to decay. A better model will be having uneven exchange rates. i.e. 1$ -> 10PED, but 15PED -> 1$, thus they profit from every exchange and interest on all the money in circulation at any time.
Make even shorter URLs - 8LN.org
Long before internet gaming, serious RPG addicts were paying real cash for things that didn't exist even on hard drive somewhere in Texas. Giant gaming cons would see people offering cash under the table for other members of their gaming group to have their character/s give them weapons, etc. Since you could also leave a sort of will in many cases, there was often deals of the "buy me lunch and I'll leave my mace of +4 against zombies to you when I die."
This came of age with the net, of course. Ebay finally had to ban (or just regulate?) the sale of virtual property after several Ultima-related fiascoes caused bad publicity. Katz wrote about before that here: 'Ebay launches virtual property' and there was quite a bit of mainstream coverage of this.
While looking for that coverage I found this essay on Gaming Culture that mentions Ebay. Also a mention on USA Today. Apparently the selling violated the games' terms of use.
Saludos, Mig
(Karma for sale)
The decay model is in the game instead of a tax or exchange rate imbalance. By decaying, objects will lose value and the end result is just like a tax on usage. You would also do well to realize that as soon as in-game money becomes immediately interchangeable with "real money", like in this game it too is real money, not "virtual".
/ Per
Everyone would get something out of this arrangement:
What's important here is that all these worlds are linked; that you could travel to one from the other like you travel from one country to another in realspace. (Convert your currency at the border. Certain items may not be allowed in a given world, and must be checked upon arrival. Reclaim them on your way out.)By making all the smaller worlds parts of one big game, Entropia (or whomever) could exploit network effects and firmly tip the market in their favor. The first company that begins *selling* virtual worlds to the masses is going to be the company that dominates the industry. Infrastructure is always a more appealing buy than content.
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
hi people ,
Look, the money is only, in my opinion, a minor aspect of the game. Enemies will spawn randomly, to prevent camping. You can set up your own store. You can make your own quests. There are myriad aspects of the game that will be new and interesting (if you believe the buzz). Plus, for vaporware, it's got lots of screenshots.
Sure their will be people that buy into the game at high levels... But there have always been people that did that in online games. It's going to be a free mmporg, and according to the site, all you will need is a computer and a 3d card.
At least they are trying something new. This is MindArk's only project, they are taking risks, and it looks interesting. I'm usually cynical and embittered like most intelligent people, but lets be honest, this is probably the closest I'm going to get to playing games for a living. And that would be just damm cool.
Gryftir
http://www.santacruzbynight.com/index.shtml Santa Cruz By Night Vampire Larp
I had that idea of using real money as credits/monetary units in a virtual world :-\
How long till we see:
Ive got a +3 sword of light only $1 to enter the raffle...
or hiring hitmen to take out some other player you dont like...
or shaking down weaker characters for thier milk money?
1. If this game caught on, it may be possible to earn an actual income from this game...
It is *allready* possible, the value for credits in Everquest (credits==currency in the Everquest economy) on Ebay, is better than the value of many third world countries.
I personally know a few people who have been able to make several thousands of dollars a month off "farming" items in game. Of course if they actually calculated how much time they spent doing it (far more than a typical 8 hour day at an office), it wouldn't seem all that special to the typical middle class American...but to someone in a economically challenged area or country, it could feasibly be a serious windfall to them!
Check the title again, dickface. It's called "Pay to Play II" emphasis: II
It's alright if you feel like an ass now.
Look you stupid n00b fuck, maybe your retardation keeps you from realizing that all the links are different and separate websites and that the editor purposely knew this in advance, hence the "Pay to Play" and "Pay to Play II", but I don't have the time or patience to school you with a LART.
.sig? Assclown.
Also, I don't want to subject the other readers to all the white space in your posts. What's the matter? Still struggling with learning how to use the
When a company fires people in Europe because of getting sick they can be sued.
You can sue that you get your job back or that they'll have to pay you LOTS of money.
And that's European law, Sweden should be even more thight with such things.
So if they were firing people for getting sick as you claimed, why hadn't they been sued to death ?
AFAIK you could sue them even for the overnight work, employee protection IS very good in Europe.
Owner of a Mensa membership card.
Yay, I think it would be just so much fun to play a game where people who are rich in the real world are at an advantage. Not.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
If they are putting in $100,000 of their own money - why not just give 10,000 beta tester $10 each and test it that way?
Sure, a small percentage will just try to pull their $10 out right away, but I bet most would have a go at it.
Sounds like a slightly more entertaining version of a pyramid scam to me.
There's lots of comments here that are objections to rich people having an advantage.
Sanctum, MtG have shown that this doesn't cause much if any resentment. Mostly because those games all require skill in combining the most expensive and rare equipment (cards) into a set.
For RPGs though, the skill involved is in getting the equipment. If you are stocked with the best of everything you can in fact beat a player who's much better but has spent $40-$80.
The company though can compensate by providing freebies and prizes to talented players.
What they absolutely can't get past for me, is their decay model. I mean, I don't buy potions in RPGs because they're expendable items. I tend to buy assets like weapons and armour because they have durability, and can be resold after use.
If anything, this model encourages people to fight squirels in their underwear to gain levels and gc. You can go through any RPG slower so that you're level 60 with crap gear, and do much better than a character that's level 30 with primo magic everything.
Here in Sweden a company is legally bound to monitor the health of employees, because if they don't, they can be forced to pay for work-related damages.
That's precisely why MindArk was forced to fire employees who stayed up nights working, or otherwise neglected their health. Employees who neglect their health are considered MindArk's responsibility by Swedish law, and had MindArk not gotten rid of the potential liabilities as fast as possible, the law might have bankrupted them.
I guarantee you I will never choose Sweden as a place of operations for a business. Laws like this make it unnecessarily difficult to run a successful one.
Listen to it, Krapangor. You're entirely correct. I could have sued Mindark for firing me without legal grounds, but that wouldn't mean they gave me a truckload of cash, it would mean they gave me my job back. Now think about that. Do I sound like a guy who would have loved to go back there? :)
So it's not a question about Sweden being sloppy on that law, it's a question whether I wanted the job back or not, and I decided not to. I won't sue unless provoked. The others I can't vouch for. My first friend who got fired for working on something overnight didn't want to go back either. In fact, he found a woman he would like to share his life with and 2 weeks later he's working as a webdesigner out of London. The lead artist kind of person, I really have no idea why he didn't sue, or IF he did sue really.
Swedes also have sort of a humility problem when it comes to standing up for ourselves. Yes, it's silly, like Mojojojo said that we don't bring up our actual rights when we're mistreated by employers. Heck, a lot of people don't even KNOW their rights, and a lot of employers take advantage of that fact.
Hm.. this discussion just became a little personal, but what the hey.
But no, you can't sue for doing overnight freely because you thought it needed to be done. You COULD sue if the company tried to order you to work overtime without any reinbursement however, and MindArk never did order anyone to work overtime, they just leaned on you very hard and if you brought up the question of reinbursement they pointed out that all extra hours (or ANY particularily outstanding work) earned you stock options.
Again, without saying too much about whether MindArk is gold or feldspar, I think it's safe to tell you that "stock options" was a running joke while I worked there. Someone had, for example managed to recieve some 50,000 US$ worth of stock options for doing a single favor to the company somewhere along the line. Oh, and take the "worth" of those with a bit of salt please. Like we did.
Also, it is not immediately obvious that they do fire because of illness. I will bring that up in reply to the AC below
/ Per
Correct, short-term illness is paid by the state. Well in first hand it's paid by the person who's sick (what's the English term for "karens", anyone?) by not getting any reimbursement what-so-ever during the first few days. Then, during another two weeks like you said, the company pays the wages despite you being sick. But after that, if there are more than six instances of sick leave over a 12 month period, or if there is one instance longer than 14 days, or if the employee him- or herself requests it or if the company finds it motivated, the company is obliged to investigate the matter or if they so choose to request help from the state in order to investigate the health of the employee.
The company can do this as soon as they feel that there might be a risk of long-term sickness and such investigations were ordered by MindArk regarding a few employees who interpreted this as a covert threat for some reason, I don't know why. Personally, when I heard I was up for a health checkup I was glad. I had been wondering myself how come I had gotten the flu TWICE the same autumn and so I was looking forward to recieving my law-given health exam on the first of September, as the company was obliged to order for me (the checkup itself being paid by the state, Försäkringskassan to be specific) but I never did get that physical because they fired me on August last. As far as I know, this is also not permitted. Once you have initiated the health investigation you can't just fire the employee you were supposed to check up on.
Anyway. More questions?
/ Per
"I guarantee you I will never choose Sweden as a place of operations for a business. Laws like this make it unnecessarily difficult to run a successful one."
Well that's good. Some countries focus on laws that benefit the employer. Sweden is one of those countries that think it's also fair to benefit the employee. The sheer employee==liability mentality is shunned here. You take care of your employees and they stick around. If you don't, you're screwed. Personally, being an employee, I sorta like that thinking.
So yea, it's "unnecessarily difficult" to hire&fire. Boo hoo. :)
/ Per
hiring hitmen to take out some other player you dont like
PKing in Project: Entropia is supposedly combined with serious drawbacks. If you PK - player kill - you lose your "insurance" meaning that the items on your body are now possible to steal off it if you were killed. I also believe that someone who has the status of a player killer is possible to kill at no penalty (as well as being lootable). With these rules, there have sprung up player guilds that intend to endure these drawbacks in exchange for payment and for that payment kill, steal or otherwise break the rules and take the punishment.
The fandom pages for Project: Entropia, guilds especially, make for an interesting read.
/ Per
Make sure that that gaming company you signup with has a favorable policy regarding account suspension. Ultima Online had a poor (perhaps they still do) policy regarding account suspension. Their policy required you to play regardless of whether you used your account or not in order to guarrantee the existance of your character. Note: This was personal pain, since I really liked playing. It was a matter of principle that paying during the time I could not use the account was unacceptable.
"but players will trade amongst one another with real money"
yea surely that wont encourage cheating or griefing in any way.
In EQ you can sell almost anything to a vendor. A vendor being a NPC the server runs. Now the amount is usually very small. But the starting point for the economy in EQ is selling items to vendors (get a couple of sliver for that wolf pelt) and looting corpses.
I imagine that in this game you will not receive any credits from looting. Only items, and that vendors will only take in a certain type of loot and then only a certain amount. (So if you found an exploit that let you get a ton of High Quality Wolf pelts you wouldn't be able to sell them all, if any.)
If you can make money from looting, and can sell anything to vendors it wont work.
Oh well, no biggie. I have discovered this secret feature of Slashdot. All you have to do is post comments that people actually want to read and you get modded up! So any time I lose karma points, I just use this cheat and I'm soon back at 50! Clever, huh?
No, that's not true. Your doctor might use harsh words and your employer might be unwilling to let you back until the doctor says so but there's nothing like a law. Do we need a new topic about international health care or could people maybe start reading the CIA world factbook again? :)
/ Per
They may run into legal flack from various state gaming commissions. Here in Colorado, any device which you pay money or other tangible consideration to play and which rewards you with money or other tangible consideration (other than more game play) is considered a slot machine. (Thus, even a pay-to-play Quake tournament which awards prizes to best players is technically illegal in Colorado and most other states with statutes regarding slot machines).
This seems like a HUGE liability. What happens when bugs in the game allow players to steal money? Or when someone DoS' the servers, and people can't play for days, or weeks? Many players would be quite angry that their personal finances would be interruped, perhaps even destroyed.
Of course it is not a good idea to rely on the game for your income, but there will be people that will do this, and they will complain loudly when problems arise.
I don't see how any lawyer would allow this - the liability is too great.</I>
Then introduce the in-game legal teams. Virtual lawyers with virtual judges with cyber-mobsters helping grease the wheels of justice in one player's favor.
<B>WOW! This would really suck! (Well, not for the virtual mobsters.)</B>
Quinn: "That was what you call it... 'moronic'."
Jane: "I think you mean 'ironic'."
Daria: "No. Quinn was right this time."
"Face it, a nation that maintains a 72% approval rating on George W. Bush is a nation with a very loose grip on reality.
I agree with the parent. The last thing I want to do is create a world (built in the name of some sort of greater realism) that favours script kiddies and the itinerant rich. Yipeee. I make a pile of cash in real life, but abusing other players in a game with it (even if in self-defense) is a ridiculous waste of my money, my time, and (in a sense) my human dignity.
.22 pistol, but if I shoot you in the eye, you're done.
The rich have power in real life, but what keeps people from going around killing people in masses? (Answer: sometimes they do, but I'm not interested in Rwanda:MMORPG).
The reasons are manifold. One reaon is that all of us are fundamentally vulnerable. We all have to sleep, eat, and sometimes trust other people. Plenty of places for you to get dry-gulched and brought low if you're some sort of super dude killer badass.
Another reason is that modern weapons make even the peons dangerous. You're a super SF dude who knows Chop Sockey and can fire a Bushmaster one-handed? Jee.... I'm just a dork with a
Another reason is that communities and laws exist. If you were to structure a game with laws and a justice system and you had people paid to enforce laws against murder, arson, looting, robbery etc (police, bounty hunters, the army), then you'd end up with a more "real" environment. You'd end up with an environment where thinking, hard work, and innovation paid off. Rather than cheesiness, gamerism, and maybe some cheatbots.
When the natural checks and balances that exist in our own world (the mortality of normal humans, the legal and institutional frameworks) are exempted while other parts of the game world start to approach reality, you get an odd and (to my mind) unfun imbalance.
On the old Zanzibar MUD, I recall the Dark Reavers having a guild. It had a community idea where if anyone from another guild PK'd one Reaver, they got payback from the others. Turns out one of the best thieves in the game PK'd my buddy's low level Reaver. A month later, he ran into a high level Reaver somewhere who mentioned said high level thief had "got his" in payback. this kind of "gang" based situation can be one effective check on PKing.
Anyway, I certainly won't be participating in a scheme designed to print money for the company who provides the service (pay close attention, Mr. Gates). I did that once (Wallets of the Coast took far too much of my money) and it was no fun then and (like sour milk put back in the fridge) isn't likely to be any better now.....
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
So what about local, state, and federal tax? Sales tax? When I sell somebody a super duper magic cloak, do I have to collect? Where do I send it? Do I need a business license and associated tax number?
Wonder how long before cash-strapped local and state govs will settle on this?
*whup* "Get along, little electrons. Heeyah!"
Clever, huh?
hardly. that's directly from the trolling HOWTO. it just proves that like any good troll, you read the documentation.
-s.
How about money laundering? Seems like Entropia is ripe for that kind of activity...
Edith Keeler Must Die
No, that's not my problem, that's your problem. :) That is not unified all over Europe. If I sued, I would get the job back, after which they may choose to buy me out again and that way I could get a couple of extra paychecks, but as it is I prefer being able to sue, to actually suing. I'm not poor enough to milk them for money and I sort of like having the upper hand here.
/ Per
This is actually a common phenomenon, with a very reasonable explanation. Take choosing a store checkout line. You choose the one you think is best, then looking to the side, you realize the one next to you is moving faster.
The problem is that there are at least two lines right next to you. If the speeds of the lines are randomly distributed, you only have a 33% chance of picking the fastest line out of 3. It gets worse with more options. There is thus a large probability that one of the two lines beside you will go faster than your choice, and a much larger chance that some line out of the set of available lines will go faster.
Similarly, when picking a job, you probably have many choices, and chances are that _some_ job you could have chosen will do better than the job you do choose.
Summary: You most likely will not make the optimal choice.
Murphy was an optimist.
kb