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Criticisms of KDE 3 Release Process
An anonymous submitter sent in a link to a recent email from the kde-devel list,
criticizing the release process. Hopefully the KDE guys can work out any problems and keep up the good work that we've seen in the past. Update: 03/10 14:20 GMT by M : One of the comments below points out that another KDE developer has made an extensive response to the original criticisms.
yes
forget about the release process...
KDE just plain sucks for 3 reasons
a. It runs on linux
b. it was developed by open sorse hippes
c. there is no common clipboard that works between all applicaitons.
d. it is not made my microsoft
I also would like to criticize the KDE 3 release process. Frankly, it sucks ass. They should really fix it.
After all of the people recently complaining about the possiblity that previously open sourced software might have to succumb to the relentless tide of capitalism, I find it somewhat confusing that they are willing to find fault with KDE.
Right now, KDE looks to be the best hope for Linux to enter mainstream as a desktop OS. A VERY major portion of the impetus for users to not change is a lack of familiarity with the desktop. They don't care how it works, or what it does. They need their computer screen to be familiar to them the first time they experience their new OS. Once they're comfortable with it, they might abandon the "Windows look", but until then it will get users.
KDE could probably use not criticsism, but instead help from able computer scientists who want to see the open source movement triumph
*KDE is dying...
(she is an orangutang.)
I am a complete shit-head.
Gnome started for one reason and one reason only: RMS didn't agree with the KDE developers' interpretation of the GPL wrt the QT library. Gnome was set up with the intention of creating FUD to delay the uptake of the best thing to ever happen to desktop Linux and to bluff and bully the KDE crowd into getting the QT licencing changed.
Yes, you heard it right, Gnome was *deliberately* started to be "bickering, competing and incompatible" and to stop Linux having a single desktop standard if that standard was to be KDE.
The licence issue is *long* in the past. That out of the way, the Gnome crowd should have had to decency to either scrap Gnome completely (as did those working on the Harmony project, which was developing a GPL QT clone) so we could unite behind KDE or keep Gnome going as a low key longer-term hacker R&D project like Enlightenment. But no, we had to keep the ball rolling didn't we.
Why, given the adverse impact this has had on Linux and other target platforms?
NIH syndrome partly; a lot of big egos (many in the US) were beaten to the punch by a bunch of (mainly) German students.
And the fact that it relies on an existing library means that big egos who want to reinvent the universe can't develop their own object library; they have to do something useful.
But the main reason, irony of ironies, is that it is LGPL rather than KDE's GPL; yes folks, the desktop that began as *THE* GNU free desktop now boasts that it is more commercial-friendly. That's why Sun and HP are putting money into it. Guarantees success? Ah, look at CDE...
Gnome is an expensive, deliberately divisive vapourware project that should have been scrapped after the QT licence changes if the principals involved had any sense of decency or any *REAL* committment to free software. It continues because a bunch of pricks can't admit that they were wrong and continue to put their own giant egos ahead of the development of desktop Unix.
Meanwhile KDE continues to release in its usual methodical fashion while Gnome 2 stays as FUD. ("You may think KDE's kewl, but wait till you see Gnome 2!") Pardon me while I puke...
Gnome and the bastards who've hyped this piece of vapourware and tried to sabotage KDE for the last five years can go to Hell! Who needs Microsoft trying to pull the rug from under the free Unix's when you've got this lot! (Yes, that includes RMS, who is responsible for initiating and encouraging this debacle).
To paraphrase the end of RMS's infamous letter of "forgiveness" to the KDE developers: Go KDE!!!
I am into the copy and paste.
kde sux
It looks to me like somebody did a s/BSD/KDE on the "BSD is dying" manuscript and submitted it to the list. Finally the BSD troll has made it to the front page on Slashdot, by proxy anyway. Huzzah!
Dr Dobbs magazine confirms: *KDE IS DYING. It doesn't take a Krespin to realize that KDE's future is very bleak. KDE lead programmer Richard Simmons estimates the number of KDE users as 4x the number of Gnome users. The number of posts to alt.sex.fetishes.gnome in the last month is 40,000. This only confirms what I have known for months: KDE is dying. Actually, KDE IS DEAD.
THIS IS THE TRUTH!!! The Earth is not round, Round = Circle = EVIL. THIS IS NOT EARTH! Earth is not evil, you are not born a dumby, we are born of Christ and we should die of the Triangle because if we Live by the Triangle Laws then we will succeed where we should! EVERYTHING IS COMPOSED OF TRIANGLES! EXCEPT COPPER!!! DO NOT USE OR PICK UP COPPER!!! I have discovered proof over many years that THIS Triangle is the key to all we know. This is a revolutionary thought process and many people cannot accept this! It will take you time to except this as truth because you were trained to be a DUMBY by the government! You are not, we are of a CHRIST not this circle lie! EVERYTHING IS OF A TRIANGLE EXCEPT COPPER AND DO NOT BELIEVE THE GOVERNMENT EVER ABOUT THIS LIE BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WANT YOU TO KNOW!!! Infinite corners does not equal no corners! Copper is Made up of circles, this is not a True Element, this is THE BIG LIE!!! Every element has triangles, the triangle is geometry, but the circle is a LIE.
KDE3 is early beta software.. Take a look at his first comments
1) Packages missing from the release entirely (1)
2) Rampant compile problems
3) Last-minute changes to build requirements that cannot be met by
many developers without an operating system upgrade (2)
4) Many outstanding bugs (3)
of course there's going to be problems with the software.
no one has made a post about the development of Woody and there are a lot more problems in it than KDE3. isn't this all part of the sotware development proccess? (emphasis on development)
Yet another crippling bombshell hit the beleaguered *BSD community when recently IDC confirmed that *BSD accounts for less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of the latest Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as further exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.
Du to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.
All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long trm survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS hobbyist dabblers. *BSD continues to decay like rotten meat. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.
*BSD is dying
Sort of gives the lie to the idea that good engineers will make good managers. Not often enough that you can always count on it. Although it is good if the managers do understand the technical issues, of course.
Now they have to go debug the management system.
ouch.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
overall, kde is a good 'product' but i'm just too disappointed with the speed issue. i've got 384 MBs of RAM on my Pentium 450 and it's just bearable. sure it's got some nice themes and all, but even windows 98 is running faster. i'm not just talking about apps, but kde hasnt been too responsive. i have yet to try out KDE3 yet (since they arent planning on releasing it on unstable)...
mind you, i've disabled all the 'effects' to speed things up... not much help.
recently migrated to XFCE (xfwm) and i'm pretty happy about it. fluxbox is the ultimate but i still havent figured out how to dock applets and other stuff properly..
i've been totally depending on Konqueror now that it's so hard to use something else. but if you run any kde apps even in fluxbox it's going to slow everything waaay down...
my blog
Poast, the SIXTEENTH.
STOP ME BEFORE I POST AGAIN!
The best part of developing free software is that it is low stress. People tend to get all bent out of shape about it. I think this is a pretty good example of what happens when people get stressed out about something that people are for the most part doing because they enjoy it.
So the KDE guys got together and were inspired to perform lots of last minute hacking. More power to them! So what if the 3.0 release is delayed or has a few issues. I think these three guys who signed the letter were just jealous because they weren't involved in the process.
I don't use KDE, and never liked it, but I have to stand up for the developers here. Just enjoy developing the software and stop bitching because there aren't 'hard freezes' before a release.
int func(int a);
func((b += 3, b));
Oh rubbish. When are people going to wake up and see that Miguel is a charlatan? Big promises, haphazard designs, more big promises, leaving a trail of half-completed projects and ideas behind him.
.NET and Microsoft designs, YOU PEOPLE WOULD BE SCREAMING FOR BLOOD. But since Miguel does it, he's "daring", going where "few fear to tread" (which is nonsense, since there are plenty of people in Windows-land lining up around the block to jump on the .NET bandwagon).
I don't understand the continual Slashdot love-in for Miguel. Were it ANYONE ELSE espousing their eternal love for
(And note, I haven't said a thing about KDE and Gnome. Ptttbbbttgttt.)
I am into the copy and paste.
BSD isn't dying you moron, it's alive and kicking. At work we have a cluster of 3,000 BSD boxes that we use for serving up dynamic web pages. And we aren't some chump loser startup either, I work for a fortune 100 company. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Yahoo still uses BSD. So why do you mean by saying BSD is dying?? It certainly isn't where I come from. Could you please elaborate some more?? Thanks.
I think the KDE people are under really big pressure from SuSE and other. If they were not, they would just say "ok, give us another 2 weeks", but they can't.
:)
Anyway, I don't like KDE. Just too big and too much bloat. But looks pretty good to my eyes
It's a failing of leadership (if the criticism is true). I think it's important to remember 2 things here:
In light of this lack of management discovery, maybe a couple programers will start to see all the recent criticizm's of software managers (as in recent stories here) may be not as useful as trying to actually support managers of projects (espically OSS ones) a little more.
This is in no way unique to KDE; large development projects sometimes stumble even with the best of intentions by those involved. The Open Source community is unique in that everyones dirty laundry gets aired in public. This can make the process seem unruly, haphazard and chaotic compared to closed development - the truth is that the same kind of conflicts, friction and occasional disasters occur there as well, but hidden from view.
I'm not a KDE user myself (I prefer gnome), but I'm confident and hopeful that the KDE development team will get past these problems and produce another good release. They've done very good releases in the past, and there's no reason for them not to do it again.
/Janne
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
... I'm glad Gnome is perfect.
:)
In the early days of KDE, I had a heck of a time getting it to build on solaris. kdesupport was the worst offender because the sound support was linux-only. Over time they got smart and and made many non-portable routines optional.
Maybe kde needs something like mozilla's tinderbox - then whoever breaks something in only some environments would be "on the hook" to fix it.
http://lists.kde.org/?t=101566017800001&r=1&w=2
And specifically, Dirk Mueller's response:
http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=101567612 207504&w=2
I'm not saying one side is more right than the other -- merely that there are certainly two sides to this issue.
Gentoo Linux http://gentoo.org/
STOP ME BEFORE I POST AGAIN!
Fei:How are you feeling? Woman:... Fei:Do you still intend to kill me? Then go right ahead and shoot me! But you'd better not do it while we're in this forest. Forest monsters hate loud noises, you know!? Woman:... Fei:Fine. Don't talk to me if you don't want to... But it wouldn't kill you to thank me for tending to your wounds. Woman:Th... Thanks... But you shouldn't have helped me. Don't think it will save your life, though. It really doesn't change a thing. Fei:What are you so afraid of? Woman:I'm not afraid, I'm just being cautious. It's natural for me to be this cautious considering I've met such a suspicious surface dwelling -Lamb-. Fei:Hm. Don't you worry. I'm not going to do anything. Besides, you're much more suspicious than I am. Woman:Huh? Fei:So, what's your name? Woman:I won't give my name to a surface dweller -Lamb-. Fei:What's with you and this 'Lamb' thing? We're both lost in this forest, surrounded by dangerous monsters... Shouldn't we at least be cooperating with each other until we get out of here? Woman: ...
Fei:Good. So what's your name? It's going to be hard for us to cooperate with one another
without at least knowing each other's names. Anyway, my name is Fei Fong Wong. You can call
me Fei.
Woman:I'm... Elhaym. But my parents call me Elly.
Fei:'Elly', huh? Somehow I already 'knew' that.
Elly: ?
Fei:Anyway, it's too dangerous to travel in these parts this late at night... Let's wait till
daybreak before we continue looking for a way out of here... If that's okay with you?
Elly:I guess we have no choice, do we?
Fei:Okay then Elly... How about having something to eat.
[The two soon go to sleep. Fei has a dream. He is a boy sitting in a desert all alone.
Suddenly, a line of faceless men appear in front of him. walking away. Fei gets up and
tries to catch up.]
KDE isn't the only open-source project to jump the gun. Maybe the should release a KDE-3_dont_use tarball ;)
I personally don't use KDE because it feels cluttered and slow. I usually use Enlightenment 0.17 CVS (when I can compile it). It looks great, is lightening fast, and is already very stable.
Anywho, whatever happened to Katabase, of KOffice? I have been waiting for that before I try a switch from OpenOffice to KOffice...
The main purpose of Malda tolerating the Page Widening dude is that when posts are cast into the garbage heap of -1 moderation, the people in charge don't want any of us reading them. So Malda keeps around this little chimp called the Page Widening dude, whose job is to make sure that none of us can tolerably read those marked down comments.
If there wasn't some rogue random user doing this stuff, Malda and his little band of merry censors would need to assign somebody the task. The point is- if it's marked down below Zero, it's effectively censored on this system, no matter how grandiose and 'free speech' oriented the rhetoric from those in charge.
...nobody wants to give me a quality desktop environment for free...
My blog can kick your blog's ass
New leadership for KDE 3.1 is needed.
Beware the new Chancellor doesn't become and evil Emporer!
Professionalism is a Good Thing(tm). However what your PHP calls professionalism might just be artificial. Sticking to a release date no matter the state of the code is unprofessional.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
My shop develops web based database software for the Marine Corps in the Okinawa, Japan region. Every application we support is based on a core set of libraries to handle all the ugly parts of talking through ODBC and the mundane parts of HTML Tags.
Although I've been coding for almost 16 years now, I've never been involved as a project manager for something this big. (our main app is rapidly approaching 100,000 lines) We have found through trial and error that code freeze/documentation periods are essential to ensure that we are all still using the same vesrions of the core libraries. This is especially critical for web page design as each page can almost be considered an object with a specific interface. If you change the interface on a page, you just broke every page that connects to that page. I'm sure the various components of KDE are no different.
KDE dev team, don't shoot the messenger! I think this is a fantastic opportunity for you to have your development practices analyzed by the slashdot community. I don't even think you could hire a consulting firm this honest and experienced.
I've dirtied my hands writing poetry, for the sake of seduction; that is, for the sake of a useful cause. --Dostoevsky
I'm a developer, and I know that this isn't going to be the end of kde. At most, a few small policy changes. If any.
If they use the same 4pt font in the article that they use in their code, no wonder nothing gets fixed!!!
You can't re-code what you can't read.
.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
I didn't realize Adrian Bunk had decided to "participate" in the KDE release process too...
</sarcasm>
My Blog. Sela Ward can sell me long distanc
if you try to report a bug with 2.2.2 you're told that 2.2.2 is obsolete and they're not accepting bug reports for it anymore, you're supposed to upgrade to 3.0.beta.don't.fscking.work
so, uh, does that suck or what? get it in gear, guys, or kde will go the way of beos.
If you use mozilla this dude's crap won't widen your pages... it's a feature of IE ;)
My recent builds of kde3 are looking rather nice. Everything runs smooth, the fonts look good, and a lot of older bugs no longer show up.
:)
Whats the problem here?
This is Neil blowing things out of proportion again. It's honestly nothing new. He has long history of lambasting anything to do with KDE3.
Others are having *excellent* experiences with KDE3. Just check the "fucking amazing" (sic) post, for example.
So yes, there are two sides to the story
(Please browse at -1 to read this comment.)
I can't post as Anonymous while logged ? Please fix this bug ASAP !
How to contact me - http://www.pervalidus.net/contact.html
Sorry to disappoint you buddy,
I've been using and testing Gnome2, and its a much better product. Had criticisms on nautilus performance? Forget that!
Compilation problems? well, I just issue a single command and my Gnome2 system is being completely rebuilt (from cvs) as I write this.
I haven't tried to compile KDE3 code, but from what I heard, Gnome is in much better shape.
I was looking a a copy of eWeek. It was full of Microsoft ads with chinks and niggers and wogs. And I was looking at Bravo on cable TV. The Microsoft adds for ".NET" was full of niggers, quadroons, mulatos, gooks, mud people, spics.
Conclusion: Microsoft is anti-white. Microsoft hates whites and is in a war against White Folk. Don't believe it? Bill Gates offers scholarships to mud people but excludes white people. Poor white people are passed over. Less deserving Negroes are the beneficiaries of Bill Gate's "largesse".
In other words, the Slashcode is broken in such a way that the 95% of the people who read this site who use IE can't read -1 posts.
Way to go, Malda. You're a real pro.
From: Waldo Bastian
To: kde-core-devel@mail.kde.org
Subject: Thoughts about releases.
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 15:47:53 -0800
Releases are a funny thing, you know, we love them and we hate them. Before a
release everyone tends to get all excited and some people see a bunch of bugs
and problems and then go into panic-mode. I have seen it happening with about
every KDE release. Psychology must be playing tricks on the human mind.
Looking back though, KDE releases have all been pretty ok. 2.0 could have
been a bit more stable, but it is questionable whether delaying it would have
helped much.
Instead of going in panic-mode it is usually more constructive to check for
remaining problems and either fix them yourself, or report them to one of the
lists. Based on such reports a release coordinator will be able to get an
impression of the overall quality and make an informed decission whether to
release or to postpone.
Unlike popular believe there is no shame in delaying a release till it has
reached a quality that is desirable. It is up to the release coordinator to
decide when that point has been reached. The sole purpose of release
schedules is to coordinate develoment _WITHIN_ KDE itself. Distro's like
Conectiva, Mandrake or SuSE may find it inconvenient that a KDE release
happens later than originally planned but quite frankly that's their problem,
not KDE's.
(And in my case that's partly my problem because I happen to work for SuSE,
but I disgress).
I would also like to make use of the opportunity to thank Dirk for his hard
work on this release. Thank you Dirk!
And now let's have some fun finding those last remaining bugs....
Cheers,
Waldo
--
Advanced technology only happens when people take a basic idea and add to it.
-- Bob Bemer
(Please browse at -1 to read this comment.)
That Neil Stevens guys is hard to deal with. What the fuck is with all these Libertarians? They all seem to be wackos.
I am into the copy and paste.
This guy has been moaning about KDE since ages. He may contribute to KDE a bit, but by God he pisses off nearly every developer.
lists.kde.org and dot.kde.org are where he trolls most.
He has:
Criticized *many* KDE developers good work, even though they are working for free in their spare time.
Would rather see Microsoft go off scott free and end up killing KDE than have Microsoft be punished for being a monopoly.
Has sabotaged KDE CVS because people didn't agree with him.
He now wants to lead KDE.
The guy has an agenda to cripple KDE anyway he can, by sowing discord and criticizing everyone. He shows no respect for peoples work and never apologizes even when he is completely wrong. Its a miracle KDE has put up with him so far.
asdfasdasdfasd adfasdf asd fasdfa sf asd fsa f ad fasd fasd fa sf a sdf asd fasd fasf asdf asdf asdf asdfa sdf asdf asdfsdf adsf asdfsdf dasfasd asd f ads sd asdf adsf asdf asdf as fads f adsf as fasdf asdf asd fasdf dsa fasdf asd f asdf as df ada sdf asdf asdf asd fasdfa sd fasdfas sadf asdf as fasdf asd fasdf a sdf asdf afasdf asdf asd
Sorry to dissapoint you but Gnome is going the way of CDE. Gnome is unmitigated garbage! Vive KDE!
I am into the copy and paste.
I don't buy it (the complaint that is). The reasons for the changes seem to be for the long term good of KDE, and to keep the breakage of going from 3.0 to 3.1 in the future to a minimum.
I have found the KDE guys' release scheduling and management of high quality in the past, and judging from the minimum of hiccups I got building 3.0 RC1, I can say they're still top notch.
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Three developers out of all of KDE's developers criticize the KDE dev process and it's newsworthy?
Now it's guaranteed to be picked up by other "news" sources and generate a bunch of useless controversy. Sometimes when I see what Newsforge (gag) puts out, I wonder if they have a secret agenda to discredit Open Source development. A quote from someone (Tina) at Newsforge about their policy of posting any and everything:
we assume that our readers are smart enough to separate the sheep from the goats
I've gotten this response from them before, and they don't seem to understand the difference between filtering crap and saying that they shouldn't post critical or negative commentary. Yes, by all means, run a negative story if it's important, but don't run crap -- positive or negative. Posting a diatribe by three KDE developers -- folks, that's crap.
In other words "don't look to us for news, because we don't do perform any kind of quality checking or the typical gatekeeper function you'd expect from real journalists. Someone submits it, we'll post it somewhere."
I'm not saying that it's wrong to report on genuine conflicts or negative stories when they're important, but this really doesn't qualify IMHO. When a site purports to be a news site, there should be some quality checking and filtering going on. Stories that are comprised of nothing more than a rant or stories that are obviously biased or outright false should not be picked up -- or at the very least have a disclaimer attached.
Microsoft must love the fact that Free and Open Source software development discussion takes place in the open where everyone can examine and dissect every personality conflict and internal bitchfest. It makes the Linux and Open Source community look like a bunch of fractious losers while no matter what Microsoft PR's department spews everyone marches in lock-step to it.
Sticking to a release date no matter the state of the code is unprofessional.
True, but if you don't do that, there will always be a few developers saying the code is not ready, and there's still work to be done. That's how releases end up getting ridiculously delayed.
It comes down to the responsibility of the developers. If there's a freeze coming up, have enough common sense to know that it's not arbitrary, and it's for the good of the project. Don't barf all over the code 2 weeks ahead of time just to get a whiz-bang feature in.
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
In Opera the page widening does not work either. IE must really suck!
I am into the copy and paste.
Wow. What a surprise. Use fvwm 1.24r.
have a document like the Constitution where we can abolish the management if it tries to take out our fundamental rights to get non-buggy software? Cause, I'm available as an asassin if necessary. ;)
KDE 3.0 is currently in beta. This means that if it doesn't compile or is missing things then so be it. Beta software by definition isn't ready for general release. (I know redundant but you know...eventually the point may sink in)
The 2.4 series kernel and recent Patch penguin broohaha could be criticised for the same. In fact the 2.4 kernel has been called the "Kernel of pain" because of the problems. What this has done is force the development community to work harder, and even Linus is trying new things (automated patch integration into the tree). I believe that constructive criticiscm is always helpful, and a good sanity check BEFORE KDE 3.0 is released does not in any way take away from KDE. Perhaps the can avoid the pitfalls of the 2.4 series Kernel.
"Science is about ego as much as it is about discovery and truth " - I said it, so sue me.
I would like to share with you a story - a story of pain, rejection, denial, loneliness, and perhaps, at the end, triumph and a happy ending. This story begins just three short years ago...
I was in my senior year of highschool, and as was the style at the time, I was very much interested in computers. I loved to take them apart, figure out how they worked, write programs with Microsoft's fine development environment, Visual Studio. As was also the style at the time, I loved to read webpages, in particularly, Slashdot.org. Perhaps you can guess what happened next. I began to slowly change - I developed an unhealthy obsession with computers, began to dislike and openly question America's policies, started shamelessly pirating music and software, and most dangerously, got turned on to that most deviant operating system of all - Linux.
Now I know many of you must be shaking your head in disgust at this point - "This must just be another one of those M$ trolls, hardee har har," but please, hear me out. This is very important.
As time went on, I got deeper and deeper in the Linux underground. I progressed through the various levels of "distros," from Mandrake, to Suse, to RedHat, finally to Debian, like a drug user going from harmless marijuana to cocaine and heroin. I thought I was so smart; I began sneering at other people who didn't use Linux - "Clueless Windo$e luzers," I would say. I was changing outwardly as well. I became a loner, hunched over the keyboard late into the night with the lights off, listening to my illegally downloaded music. All my friends left me after I broke their computers trying to install Linux on them. My hair grew long and unkempt, I stopped bathing and using deodorant, calling them "tools of capitalism and American greed." I got fired from my sysadmin job for installing slackware over the Solaris servers, and installing Debian over the Windows desktops. My bosses told me I cost the company hundreds of thousands of dollars, but I would not listen. "How could I be wrong, I'm using Linux?" I thought, "They must be M$ shills." You can see how far gone I was. No girls would look at me, let alone speak to me. I was in a world of pain, anger, and confusion.
But, then one day, I took a long hard look at myself. I saw that something was wrong, but did not know what. I must confess, for a long time I denied what I knew deep down inside my heart - Linux was the cause of all my troubles. I saw what I had allowed myself to become. I was no longer a human being, I was a Linux Zealot. Instead of judging people by their thoughts, feelings, and actions, I judged them by their choice of Operating System. And so began the long road toward recovery...
I am still not fully recovered from my affliction, for you see, I have only one desktop machine, and cannot install Windows without losing much of my data. That's right, I am healthy enough to admit it, Linux is not for desktop use. I am planning my next desktop machine purchase, which will be an Apple iBook. The one good thing that came out of my years of torment is that I learned the power of Unix. Therefore, I will use MacOSX - a true Unix with excellent support and commercial software backing, something Linux will never have. By paying for my software from now on, I will be supporting the American economy. I want to help get America out of this economic tailspin brought on by open source software and the dot com bust. More importantly, I will no longer be an operating system zealot. I will be friendly, kind, and generous to my fellow humans, no matter which operating system they use. I am now slowly regaining my friends, and last weekend I actually got invited to a party - my first party! Perhaps this weekend I will ask a cute girl out on a date. Since I have cleaned myself up and changed my attitude, I have noticed a few girls giving me flirty looks around campus. I'm so excited about my new life!
Please, Fellow Readers of Slashdot, I implore you to look at what you have become. Although it will be long and difficult, you too can change. I have faith in that. You can start by saying this with me - "Microsoft is not evil, Linux is not good for the desktop." Repeat that every time you feel yourself slipping. Together, we can right this horrible wrong.
Thank You.
Visit the new Troll site!
Pretty, but broken. KDE is currently the result of allot of quick hacks. There may be a development team, but teamwork dosent apply.
jkl;jkl;jkl;jkl; jkl; jkl;jkl;jk l; jkl;jkl;jk;lj;l jk jk jkl jkl; jkl jkl;jkl; jkl ; jkl; jkl; jk;l jkl; jk;l jkl; jk;ljkl; jk l;jkl; jkl; jkl; j;l
"A VERY major portion of the impetus for users to not change is a lack of familiarity with the desktop..."
I just wanted to mention that it wasn't the interface so much that makes me not us Linux, it's that I have no clue how to get hardware to work. Windows has me that spoiled. I'm so used to having neat little menu driven things I can run that allow me to get things up and running, that when I went to use Linux (KDE on Redhat, I believe), I was unable to find what I needed to get network and sound going.
You may chalk this up to me being a helpless newbie, but I don't have this problem with Windows or even Mac. I guess what I'm really saying is that KDE at 2.0 was fine, but tinkering with the hardware to make everything work was what turned me off. I admit that I didn't put all that much effort into it, but I only have so much time, you know?
Apple got the idea right, though. Look at what they did with OSX. They built upon the BSD Kernel (I think it was BSD... don't shoot me if I got it wrong. Please feel free to correct me, though) and made the interface with a target audience in mind. The result? I have a coworker who is able to tinker with his Mac, but he's never needed to know the root password to his machine.
Redhat's gotten close to this in 7.0. I really feel like 8 or 9 may be enough to get me going in the Linux world. A new version of KDE is icing on the cake.
"Derp de derp."
That is as the API goes, spend a few hundred hours making your apps work on kde2, a few months later have to spend a few hundred hours making your apps work on kde3, a few months later....... This is bad for kde and bad for linux.
Get a free ipod.
Well, if you want to talk about professionalism, it also is very unprofessional to bad mouth a project right before it's release.
A lot of the time, developers like to blow things a bit out of proportion and that's all well and good when your just around developers, but it is very bad to make such public comments.
We always had a general rule of thumb that we follow. Within a month of a release of our project, we never use the word 'core dump' around the management. Dumps are no big deal most of the time but it doesn't give management a warm and fuzzy feeling to hear the words 'core dump' so close to deadline.
int func(int a);
func((b += 3, b));
> ./configure; make; make install
/usr/local/kde3
/usr/local/ /usr/local/qt-copy-XXX /usr/local/qt3
>>How do you uninstall?
This is a good question. It's really pretty easy,
acutally to try out things like this without interfering
with the package management system you use.
The key is using the "--prefix" configure option to
choose the target install directory.
1) Create your own target location
mkdir
export QTDIR=/usr/local/qt3
export KDEDIR=/usr/local/kde3
cp qt-copy-XXX.tar
tar xvf qt-copy-XXX.tar
ln -s
cd $QTDIR
./configure (+ options listed in README.qt-copy)
./make
tar xvf (kde-whatever-pkg.tar)
cd kde-whatever-pkg
./configure --prefix=$KDEDIR
make
make install
Now all the kde3 software you install like this goes
under $KDEDIR
If you want to uninstall it, just delete everything in
that directory. Simple, eh?
"While Dirk Mueller is respected throughout
the community [...] New leadership for KDE 3.1 is needed. I call for a vote of no-confidence in Senator Mueller's leadership."
What, none? Oh ok, then how many have you ported from different Qt releases?
What, none? Oh ok, then why are you trolling in slashdot with these kinds of idiotic subject titles?
Porting most apps to KDE3 is a matter of hours...
doesn't widen the page on my ie 5.5 for mac..
I posted the parent post AND the reply!! hAHAhahaha!! I was troling you!! And you fwll for it!! hHAhaahahaa
Neil here,
What post are you talking about?
Now I'm going to have to start looking through your past posts to figure out just who you are. From the name I have to guess you're one of the dot.kde.org editors, but I'm not sure.
right....... you need to chill out dude.
if you check in code that *you* can't compile that's a problem!
When you run into problems with GUI speed, consider your video adapter. Most of the processing needed to make things jump onto the screen is done by the video processor.
I consider Matrox to be the best video adapter for business (non-game) use. (Hitachi monitors are very sharp.)
I have a 200 MHz Pentium II with a Matrox adapter that is acceptably fast with KDE 2.
Bush's education improvements were
In every discussion of KDE, there is at least one person who comments that GNOME is better, but without providing support for the statements. I'm not saying this is wrong, but I don't understand it. What about GNOME strikes you as so much more advanced than KDE?
Bush's education improvements were
So that is the reason that apps loads slow? And the reason konqueror are slow at rendering directories?
A video car can really cripple a system. You can just try to run with vesa drivers.
But I haven't yet tried a card that wasn't decently supported in linux.
And what make KDE slow (yes it is slow) is definitly not the videoadaptor.
Why Gnome? What does it have that KDE lacks? I tried Gnome, didn't like it, went back to KDE.
KDE is developing FAST (unlike Gnome it seems), it was here before Gnome was. Why should people support Gnome instead of KDE?
It's funny, Gnome was started as a "free" alternative to KDE (back when Qt still had licensing-issues). But now it seems that of those two, KDE is the "more free" one. Gnome is influenced by corporations. Hell, one of it's chief developers (Ximian) is a for-profit corp! And certain chief-developer of Gnoma has openly suggested that Gnome should use *gasp* Microsoft-technologies!
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
You may chalk this up to me being a helpless newbie
No, it's just that Linux is complete shit when it comes to things like this. I could list more examples, but this will only get marked as flamebait, so theres little point. Its not like people arn't pointing out the flaws in Linux all the time either.
it took me 3 lines of source code to make my kde2 app work on kde3.
I just compiled kgamma ( a KDE 2 kcontrol module ) for KDE 3, and it took no source changes, just a switch to the KDE 3 admin directory.
The biggest change needed to port this time are
perl -pi -e "s,QList,QPtrList,g" *.cpp *.h
KDE 3 isn't the radical jump that KDE 2 was. Porting isn't hard. And there's a nice large doc in the kdelibs sources describing the changes from 2 to 3 in kdelibs.
your a boring broken record, "linux is shit"
it's just a damn OS, nothing to get upset about.
I use win2k and linux, they are both allright, neither one has turned my machine into a magic box. Linux is neat and isn't as mind numbing as Win2k to use, hell, I'll be damned if I would spend $2000.00 for the privlage of using a mac with OSX on it. so Linux is great in that respect.
For an OS that has been developed by contributers from around the world I would have to say that in that respect Linux is amazing. Win2k on the other hand for an OS that has been developed by one company in a tightly controlled environment should be more stable.
screw it, I'm just babbling now, I need more coffee.....
Yeah, but people who read the site using IE are all wankers anyway. /. was built for us Linux geeks, not you.
SuSE is really the nicest desktop OS I've used, IMO, possibly barring OSX. (That's *just* talking about the desktop experience, and not apps or OS). It blows away Red Hat and has a leg up on Mandrake... I'm looking forward to their KDE 3.1 based setup.
Incidently, so many features are hanging on the feature freeze for KDE 3.1 that that is the release that I'm really looking forward to. 3.0 is an updated API and updates on the core apps with very few killer features, other than speed and core changes... 3.1 is when the nifty features (many of which are already written) get integrated. Several of the developers who have pretty much wrapped up their code for 3.0 are seriously looking at 3.1. Remember - 3.0 is primarily a port and rework to provide a faster stable core with more functionality. 3.1 will actually use this new functionality to add new features.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
What I am told is, that is too much too fast for our company to consider using kde as a target platform. So keep it up and we will never be allowed to develop for KDE.
Get a free ipod.
sorry to piss you off now. but gnome 2 is more an EARLY alpha release than a beta. i would call end of march a ALPHA RELEASE DATE but sure not FINAL GNOME 2.
Neil did not blow anything out of proportion. Uncensored opinions like these are the best, because you need some unpopular opinions to evaluate your goals and methods and so you can improve them along the way.
There have been some questionable events and changes in the past week within KDE development and the upcoming release. Since noone had yet the courage to express concerns about these changes, Neil stood up and did, with a firm voice.
The result is some strong but constructive discussions to improve the situation and do what is best for KDE. A second RC has been created and the results of testing it will decided if there will be a final 3.0.0 release next or a delay if necessary.
Yes, us KDE developers disagree sometimes. We're not always best friends. But we respect other opinions and keep our common friend in mind: KDE itself.
KDE 3.0 has too much new features and improvements to call it only a port. The port part was ended sometime between Alpha and Beta1 release in December.
Well, I was close. He runs a website, just not dot.kde.org.
:-)
Maybe I owe an apology to Dre, Navindra, and the rest.
3.1 will have a whole slew of honest new features at the application level. As I said, it's more of a judgement call and open to interpretation, but I'd still call it 80% port and rewrite to interface to the new underlying features, 10% new artwork and other graphics, 5% new flash (useless features like the sidebar to the kicker menu) and 5% new stuff. Plus a good portion of stuff like documentation and translation (which takes us well above 100%, but you get the idea).
I especially like that the 2.x config files conversion is being given a high priority, so the shift from 2.x to 3.x will be pretty much transparent (not that the beta is lacking some config translations, notably and dangeriously KMail).
Again... it's a matter of opinion - this is a very complete port and rewrite (for speed) of the core libs. The apps have been adjusted to take mild advantage of the new underlying layer. I say that's part of the port process. You might disagree... we'd both be right.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
Neil you loser! :)
Yuch. Different strokes for different folks indeed.
Pushin' 'n dealin', shovin' 'n stealin'
Let's look at the incomplete feature list for KDE 3.0 what your 5% are: better javascript and rendering engine, sidebar mediaplayer, many new features in Kate, new file-dialog, improved kdeprint, Noatun's WinAmp skin loader and streaming support, improved Konsole, a file-sharing applet, improved KMail in regards to SMTP auth and IMAP, KRegExpEditor and the complete new kdeedu package.
Pretty much for your 5% new stuff and nothing of this was gained because of newer Qt library.
"Neil did not blow anything out of proportion."
Really? I'm sorry but requiring that developers
download and compiling the latest autoconf
is not the same as a forcing "an operating system
upgrade".
Any developer should know enough about UNIX
to do this without affecting a single other program
on his system, if that's what he wants. Blowing
things completely out of proportion? Definitely.
In general my problem with the rant is it's immature,
sensationalist, self-serving tone, and lack of
constructive input. Compare it to one of Waldo's
messages, for example.
Those who have been through KDE releases know
there are always problems with RCs, an
the final release is always pushed back.
If you are truely concerned about the quality of
the software, simply post a calm, coherent,
objective list of known problems to the
mailing lists and ask the release coordinator to
consider a delay. It's what has happened in the
past, and it works, but I suppose it doesn't get
your name all over slashdot, now does it?
I find it humorous that those responsible for
such an immature rant would seek a leadership
role in the next release. Even if there are one or
two good technical points buried in the text,
the unprofessional tone and use of personal attacks
exemplify characteristics I would never want
in a project leader.
I noticed this complaint reported on Sourceforge yesterday. All I can say is, based on my experimentation with RC2 and relatively recent CVS's, things don't seem to be anywhere near as bad as the complaint implies.
Realistically, what I found was only ONE serious bug that keeps me from using the KDE3 CVS release as my current desktop - and the reply to the complaint mentioned it:
Except for khtml problems I would say KDE is in a pretty good shape right nowThe big problem right now, from what *I* have noticed (there may be others, but I haven't stumbled on them) is the broken focus. I couldn't write this post in KDE3, for example, because while in the textarea, the "focus" is actually still on the links in the page. Pressing the Enter key while typing here in KDE3 would cause the browser to jump to the currently focussed link (the first one on the page) instead of putting an "enter" into the textarea...
While the fact that this huge focus problem has been in khtml for so long and (as far as I can tell from what I get out of "cvs update kde" from anoncvs.kde.org) isn't being addressed at all disturbs me (bugs.kde.org now even has a bug entry set up to track all of the 'duplicates' that are all permutations of "keyboard focus in khtml is broken"!), the fact is that other than this ONE bug (which may conceivably only still be there because of the feature freeze preventing a reworked set of khtml focus code from being committed to fix it), KDE3 was looking like it was actually in quite good shape...
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
No, but a good chunk of it, like the Javascript and rendering engine, new file dialogue, improved printing and support for streaming I would call "core changes", which moves them to that 80% I spoke of. It affects apps across the board, but aren't really new features at the app level. Noatun's new features are mostly derived from changed to the aRts underlying engine. KMail did get some substantial app improvements and new features.
Take a look at the feature list for 3.1, however, and where the changes occured for 3.0, and it's pretty much core changes (including rewrite for speed and port) in 3.0 and app level changes generally got pushed into 3.1.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
I will try that, thank you! :)
NanoGator
After a feature freeze the only thing that goes into the code is bug fixes. Never, never, never put in features after a freeze. But always allow in fixes for the highest priority bugs.
It helps if you have three freeze points, one to stop features, one to stop minor bugs, and one to stop everything but the mandatory bugs. You also need a release manager with very thick skin armed with a spiked club.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Now you count "core changes" as "port and interfaces adaption"? Get real.
Looking at the 3.1 list, one could count half of listed stuff as "core changes" (KHTML part, KDE libs, KNotify, KDE Print, Misc, Multimedia, aRts, RenameDlg/KFile Plugins). In my opinion, with your criteria, the biggest application change around the time of KDE 3.1 release will be KOffice 1.2.
Go back to my original message - if I wasn't clear, my point was: "KDE 3.0 is a port and core rewrite for speed and new API. The apps are rewritted to expose those changes, but no really new features at the app level that aren't directly related to the core changes (with some exceptions like KMail)".
The phrase "Now you" implies that I changed my position during this thread. Untrue - read my original posts in totality. Maybe I mislead, but my position has been pretty durn solid. I'm going by what I read in the dev-list and by watching the CVS commits, not in what gets published.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien