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Wall Street Embraces Linux
Brian Stretch was among several
who sent in this story about Merrill Lynch
switching to Linux, this is interesting because it's actually companywide.
Talks about Red Hat, Linux threatening Unix and so on.
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slashdotted already?
No, seriously, I just come here for the articles.
Quoth the column:
Also, contrary to popular belief, Linux is not really "free." How are large-scale licensing agreements to be worked out?
"Some of these things make us very uncomfortable," says Carey, who is trying to hammer out the details.
I don't understand how Linux could be much more "free". Maybe Forbes has a different definition of "free" than the rest of us?
www.timcoleman.com is a total waste of your time. Never go there.
It's great that people finally learn how to use Linux. The OS is so hard to learn that it's taken these people all the 3 years Linux has been around to just get the basics.
(Remember learning Windows in 2 hours?)
Yeah, poop on you too!
A bunch of brokers in $5000 suits gangbanging an inflatable penguin isn't exactly "embracing linux" now is it?
CSFB's Yatko was just as direct. "We don't treat Linux as a toy. We've got real business problems that we need to solve."
This is what you tell your boss, the next time you get the chance to pitch "the alternative".
Here's the article.
Wall Street Embraces Linux
Lisa DiCarlo, 03.27.02, 10:50 AM ET
NEW YORK - Rick Carey has staked his reputation and his job on a project that he concedes is risky--but with potentially huge returns. He is the person in charge of a top-down implementation of Linux software at Merrill Lynch.
Merrill (nyse: MER - news - people) is one of many Wall Street brokerages doing a large-scale Linux deployment in an effort to cut their costs and boost revenue. Indeed, these banks have had a very tough year: Merrill's sales declined more than 10%, to $38.7 billion last year, and profits dried up to 56 cents per share, from $4.06 in 2000. The company laid off 9,000 employees last year to reduce compensation expenses.
More on Red Hat Software
Tear Sheet
Forbes 500s
Merrill and others talked about their Linux plans at an event hosted by Red Hat Software (nasdaq: RHAT - news - people) in New York Tuesday night. Red Hat is a leading Linux distributor but is experiencing no shortage of pain itself. Sales for fiscal 2002 ended Feb. 28 fell to $86.8 million, from $103 million. Analysts polled by First Call/Thomson Financial are expecting the company to break even in the May and August quarters.
Merrill's plans, and others like it, are very significant because they are the first companywide--rather than departmental--Linux implementations. While not without risk, this lends an enormous amount of credence to the argument that Linux can be used in place of more established technologies like Unix.
Second, it also shows that Linux does in fact threaten Unix. Sun Microsystems (nasdaq: SUNW - news - people), the leading Unix provider, has only recently communicated what can be construed as a semi-comprehensive Linux strategy--perhaps prodded by customers like Merrill.
"We are telling all of our vendors that they need to have some kind of Linux strategy," says Carey, chief technology architect at Merrill. "We are hearing that consistently from everyone on Wall Street."
Credit Suisse First Boston, which has been working with Linux since late 2000, has replaced some of its Unix technology.
"Initially it was about cost savings but it has been a benefit to the business because we're profiting from being more flexible," says Steve Yatko, chief technology officer of securities IT at CSFB. "Our trading volume has increased [twenty-fold], and our customers are seeing better pricing. And things that used to take days [like installing applications and doing management tasks] now take minutes."
Indeed, one of the big benefits that Carey sees is that Merrill can write an application once and then deploy it with minimal work on mainframes, minicomputers, desktops, laptops and handhelds--whether it be on Intel (nasdaq: INTC - news - people) hardware or something else.
This contrasts with Unix in that developers write software for every version of Unix, including for tools and patches. This approach, says Carey, is time-consuming and expensive. If a Unix project doesn't work out for some reason, the technology is rarely transferable to another project.
"When I have proprietary hardware and proprietary software, I have sunk costs into that project that I can't recover," says Carey, adding that commodity technologies are more easily transferable. "Unix took Wall Street fifteen years to master. Nobody has time for that."
But there are risks in putting so much behind Linux. For starters, there are legal implications. Does anybody own the intellectual property of the "open-source" software? How exposed are companies to patent violation?
Even more important, who is accountable? Linux is an amalgamation of the input of many companies and individual software engineers. So whom do you call when it breaks? Also, contrary to popular belief, Linux is not really "free." How are large-scale licensing agreements to be worked out?
"Some of these things make us very uncomfortable," says Carey, who is trying to hammer out the details.
But he is comfortable predicting that Merrill's investments thus far--which he won't disclose--will be accretive this year. If it works out the way he hopes, Merrill could be savings tens of millions of dollars annually within three to five years.
The support from Wall Street firms comes as Red Hat introduced software called Advanced Server, which was endorsed by leaders like Oracle (nasdaq: ORCL - news - people), IBM (nyse: IBM - news - people), Dell Computer (nasdaq: DELL - news - people), Compaq Computer (nyse: CPQ - news - people) and Veritas Software (nasdaq: VRTS - news - people). But despite the thumbs-up, Linux isn't ready for life-and-death situations.
"Would I put an air traffic control system on Linux right now? No," says Carey. "But can it get there within five years? Absolutely."
CSFB's Yatko was just as direct. "We don't treat Linux as a toy. We've got real business problems that we need to solve."
I know I would feel safer if the air traffic control is on Linux rather than any version of Windows...
Looking for any old 8-bit Heathkit/Zenith software/hardware - http://heathkit.garlanger.com
Before all you Slashbots start screaming "Windoze Suxors!", read the article, and realize Merill is replacing their UNIX systems with Linux. There is no mention of replacing any Windows systems.
It hurts when I pee.
Even more important, who is accountable? Linux is an amalgamation of the input of many companies and individual software engineers. So whom do you call when it breaks? Also, contrary to popular belief, Linux is not really "free." How are large-scale licensing agreements to be worked out?
Seems like the reporter didn't get the story. Surprising given that RHAT was the one that fed him. Isn't RHAT's whole purpose to provide that kind of support for those forking over the bux?
Interesting story though.
sulli
RTFJ.
This is how one makes money off open source technology - vouching for it through support and services. Developement of Technology and Usage of technology dont have to be done bound together as MS claims.. Development goes on freely and people like redhat vouch for its working...
... But it seemed like only a matter of time before the major players in the business world adopted linux. Hate to jump on the 'Hate MS' Bandwagon, but MS has really fumbled the ball lately. As Linux becomes more widespread, and more competent people who know how to install/run/use it get into the job market, we will see more of these types of stories being commonplace.
The problem I see is, so many people are trying to force feed the linux solution down peoples throats. Yes, advocate linux, but dont throw your hand. Managers and the ones who make business decisions like thinking they stumbled upon a great idea. For the most part, they wont take kindly to some geeky kid in IT telling them "we can save bunches of money with linux"... they have to talk to their buddies on the golf course, etc etc..
To sum it up...dont fret, in time, linux _will_ dominate
I lost my concept of community when my community lost all concept of me.
Not free as in beer, free as in free market, ergo free as in pay. Weird, I know, but it makes sense if you're a Capitalist Tool.
sulli
RTFJ.
that is all.
I hate to say it but this doesn't sound so great at all. There is NO idealism on Wall Street, money and business are the ONLY things that matter. They're confused about Linux's freeness because it's just an alien concept to them that anyone would give anything away that they could charge for. Progress Software (the turds being sued by MySQL) at least make some pretense of supporting free software and wanting to give something back to the community. Wall Street is just take take take. If anyone is going to spend real money trying to mess up the GPL, it's those guys. Imminent death predicted, film at 11, yeah, yeah, I know. I just hope I'm wrong.
This line in the article:
...reminded me of this shown on one of the panels during the skipjack (redhat beta) install:
So whom do you call when it breaks?
If it breaks, you get to keep all 1445 pieces.
Don't sweat the petty things. But do pet the sweaty things.
"Would I put an air traffic control system on Linux right now? No," says Carey. "But can it get there within five years? Absolutely."
Actually, I work in the aviation sector, and we've been using Linux for years for computing flight plans and relaying AFTN messages.
Linux is killing Big Iron. It's hurting Sun in particular. People started running Linux so they could get UNIX-like functionality and performance on their cheap Intel boxes. Whether it has reached that point of being as good as Solaris/AIX/IRIX is debatable, but the fact is people are dumping their UNIX boxes for cheap x86 boxes running Linux.
What does that mean for the bigger picture? Say goodbye to high-performance computing outside the Intel-compatible world. PA-RISC? Dead. Alpha? Dead. MIPS? Not even close to competing anymore. SPARC? Future questionable. PowerPC? It's an okay chip, but the outdated I/O on Apple machines negates any (debatable in the first place) performance advantage it might have.
What might seem good at first (more Linux everywhere) is bad for the future of high-performance computing.
Linux seems to be helping shore up Intel's hardware monopoly, as well as lengthening the lifespan of the decrepit x86 architecture.
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
What is interesting about this article is that it mentions Linux encroaching on UNIX (read: Sun's) territory, but it doesn't mention Microsoft at all. I have to assume that this means an external (web, application) server migration to Linux. If not, I'd like to know the answers to the following questions:
1) How do you work around the complete lack of server-side productivity software on Linux servers? By deploying Exchange, you can make scheduling a meeting as easy as sending an email with a time and having everyone click to confirm the meeting, which is then added to everyone's calendar. There is no solution like this without using Exchange (and I've looked.)
2) How do you work around the lack of group policy controls in SAMBA? By this I mean forcing a computer to have the most up-to-date anti-virus software when it logs on to the domain; mapping network drives automatically; downloading OS patches automatically through a local server. AFAIK, Samba can't do any of this as well as a Windows 2000 Server can. And what about Active Directory? LDAP isn't as cohesive a solution if you are running Windows clients.
From this article, I have to think that Merrill Lynch and others are changing their external server infrastructure, not their internal IT infrastructure.
The other conclusion I must draw is that the companies that are migrating to Linux as a workgroup server (i.e. replacing Windows NT/2000 Server with Linux) did not have a cohesive Windows network in the first place. Unfortunately, Linux is nowhere near a solution to Exchange, and it's perhaps 25% of the way to replacing a Windows 2000 primary domain controller's capabilities.
So what servers is Merrill Lynch migrating? Linux does have its core competencies -- web servers; application servers; network storage to some degree -- but they didn't mention what part of the infrastructure they were replacing. I would thus take the words "companywide" with a grain of salt in this case.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
"Initially it was about cost savings but it has been a benefit to the business because we're profiting from being more flexible," says Steve Yatko, chief technology officer of securities IT at CSFB. "Our trading volume has increased [twenty-fold], and our customers are seeing better pricing. And things that used to take days [like installing applications and doing management tasks] now take minutes."
That's a great quote to take to the PHB's. What's even better about it is that it isn't limited to Linux's benefits vs. any particular platform, but against the whole universe of closed source.
But then there's this:
Also, contrary to popular belief, Linux is not really "free." How are large-scale licensing agreements to be worked out?
Umm, how about like this. Buy or download a copy, modify however you like, and install it everywhere you want. As long as you aren't releasing it outside the organization (and there's no way they would) they don't need to worry about licensing or IP.
Nope, no sig
Thousands of copies getting potentially used means revenues of, what, about $150 for that single copy?
Marge, CALL MY BROKER AND BUY RED HAT! BUY BUY BUY!!
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Migrating to linux can become expensive when you consider the labor costs involved. MCSE are cheap as st|t. You cant cross the street without bumping into someone that is a MCSE. Im sure that their are quite a bit fewer Linux geeks in the professional feild and that might make it a little harder on buisness.
The article just shows that the (previously theoretical) threat is real. The more linux evolves for datacenter usage (high availability, better process/thread model, hotswap CPU...), the more it will replace commercial unix on serious ($1MM+) installations. IBM knows this, Sun is realizing this.
Microsoft is scared shitless of this, as they have been planning on replacing unix on the big iron for some time.
--TSX
First, as far as I understand, ML is switching their Unix systems to Linux. Not their MS Windows systems.
This isn't that bad. Sure, Unix is taking a hit, and MS Windows isn't being replaced. The horror.
Why isn't it bad?
Every server that's switched from Unix to Linux instead of NT or 2k..
Frankly, who cares about the desktop. Linux won't 'conquer' the desktop without third party support. Support from technical places that produce software, not from companies like ML.
Intel-based servers may be cheap and all, but I do not look forward to a future where the RISC-based manufacturers, such as Sun, IBM, and SGI, are totally displaced.
Reality is that traditional RISC-based workstations and servers, such as Sun's higher-end Ultra and Blade workstations, are really a joy to work with. They are amazingly robust and flexible, since they typically are the result of long and thorough development and testing efforts. They tend to have useful lifetimes of about a decade, where they keep finding new roles and finally get mothballed after enjoying a last hurrah as a print server. They have genuine firmware, so you don't have to jump through flaming hoops to bootstrap the system they way you want to. Their enclosures are very well engineered for easy maintainence, fewer moving parts, and good airflow. And on and on...
Whenever I see the inside of an Intel-based server, I am a bit disappointed. Working with one tends to be disappointing as well. Truth is: you do get what you pay for.
I hope Merrill Lynch doesn't learn too many hard lessons these next few years.
Free Mac Mini. Yes, I'm
My Brother works for Merrill Lynch. He is in the London office. I was there on vacation a couple weeks ago and I had the oppurtunity to visit the new Merril Office there. It's very cool btw. What I saw on my brother's desk was 2 machines. One Sun and one dell, both dual head, flat panel. As it says in the article, Sun is being displaced on the desktop in this particular instance. It will be interesting when I visit him again and I go to the office. What will I see? One Windows machine or one Linux Machine, or just Linux replacing Sun and Windows staying as is.
If Red Hat ever went under, Merril Lynch would be in deep trouble. Now, Merril Lynch's success is critically linked to that of Red Hat's. Maybe the next time Red Hat wants a round of public financing or a good loan, Merril will have a personal interest in giving Red Hat a hand.
Obviously Lisa DiCarlo really understands the comcepts in the story she just wrote. Yeah.
But I hate to see people moving to Red Hat based distros. I know they have the support network that compaines of that size need and all. But, I think that we risk building another monopoly in the linux market. There are already tons of people who think that Red Hat *IS* linux. Personally I can't stand Red Hat distros with all of their default bloatware. I would love to see a good comercial support company for Debian.
First, Merrill Lynch praised the portability of Linux applications and their ability to scale across the enterprise, with a swipe at proprietary applications. Maybe they'll wake up for a moment, and realize what their most locked-in platform is.
Second, this seems to be largely a matter of Linux moving into Unix turf. I expect to see some minor disasters happen with this type of migration, and that's a Good Thing. Why, because part of the savings is moving onto dirt cheap PCs from expensive hardware. Part of the expense of that old hardware is the label, but part is genuine quality, too. After someone starts to get a handle on money lost because PCs are too cheap, causing down-time and even some erroneous data, there will be a move to put some quality back in. We will all have a better quality spectrum to buy from, and it will be better labeled and reviewed.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
"Would I put an air traffic control system on Linux right now? No," says Carey. "But can it get there within five years? Absolutely." That's strange, I seem to remember it getting there last year.
The problem with any unwritten law is that you don't know where to go to erase it.
wow... VERY big for linux. the whole company moving to linux... this will be awesome to see unfold...
Every time I hear about Linux being adopted by I keep think abou that fable about the king and the ocean. The one that goes there was this king who thought he was all powerful and one day some stranger said he couldn't hold back the tide. The king took off to the beach and started to command the ocean. Eventually the king drowned.
Yup, that's Linux...the ocean. Anybody who says that it won't ever replace X in Y environment is doomed to drown as our favorite OS flows around and smothers thier aurgumants about X or Y.
If Mr. Edison had thought smarter he wouldn't sweat as much. --Nikola Tesla
Yahoo mail lets you embed yahoo calender links easily...in fact you can embed the Yahoo calender links in any type of communication.
Come on, you haven't looked very hard - most of the web calendar programs allow you to mail "add this event to my calendar links"...in fact its so obvious you are nearly in troll territory.
Perhaps Sun will actually start selling hardware without a 400% markup. Competition - you've got to love it! Sun deserves what it gets - they've been overcharging for their hardware for years. I will not miss them when they go under.
I'll bite.
1) How do you work around the complete lack of server-side productivity software on Linux servers?
Check out phpGroupware. http://www.phpgroupware.org/ It works. Well.
2) How do you work around the lack of group policy controls in SAMBA?
You don't. You get rid of the Windows desktops and replace them with UNIX desktops. You then stop worrying about 'Virus Updates' and Outlook exploits. If you have a legcy app the only runs on MS-DOS, or Windows, then you get Microsoft Terminal Server and Citrix. Or you get a Sun desktops, and plop in one of their Intel-PC-On-A-Pci-Cards and run Windows at native speeds. There are other options.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
They still use lots of Wintel for office applications, but the databases and the core apps run on Unix. So they are probably getting tired of paying the Sun tax, and don't relish replacing it with a Microsoft tax.
sPh
HP OpenMail can do everything exchange can, but better.
:-)
Merrill Lynch uses windows desktops basically as dumb terminals for programs like APL environments running on mainframes and unix boxes anyway. Linux is, if anything, better than windows for 3270 emulation
1) How do you work around the complete lack of server-side productivity software on Linux servers? By deploying Exchange, you can make scheduling a meeting as easy as sending an email with a time and having everyone click to confirm the meeting, which is then added to everyone's calendar. There is no solution like this without using Exchange (and I've looked.)
You have to understand this doesn't have much of anything to do with Linux, at least what they are using it for; you're talking about extending functionality of an email client/server. I'd suspect to see stuff coming from Ximian in this area as they target the desktop. However, with no users to support the development of such a project it's currently not worth it. Also this article isn't about desktop usage, it's about server usage. If you want the answer to that question
you simply just have to look at who currently uses linux and for what. You also have to look at the numbers of users on desktop.
2) How do you work around the lack of group policy controls in SAMBA? By this I mean forcing a computer to have the most up-to-date anti-virus software when it logs on to the domain; mapping network drives automatically; downloading OS patches automatically through a local server. AFAIK, Samba can't do any of this as well as a Windows 2000 Server can. And what about Active Directory? LDAP isn't as cohesive a solution if you are running Windows clients.
Blah this can be done if you know what you're doing, with some scripts. Not only that but I believe RedHat provides some type of functionality for this. Samba can't do the almighty everything without proper documentation and records/structures. Obviously Microsoft doesn't provide this so you take what you get for free. Last I checked you didn't pay for Samba, also last
I checked Microsoft hasn't released any specs recently enabling such operation, for any of the above you mention. However again you get this stuff for free, so you save costs and get minimal functionality if you have to support Windows users. If you're a windows based shop you have to pay thats what it boils down to.
From this article, I have to think that Merrill Lynch and others are changing their external server infrastructure, not their internal IT infrastructure.
This has nothing to do with external/internal infrastructure; they are replacing their sun boxen with linux boxen because it's cheaper and they get more bang for their buck. Wall St has used Unix for most of their vital financial etc etc transactions, they use os/2 as well. You won't find NT in operation anywhere the word "vital" is important on Wall St. For the most part this sounds totally alien of any internal/external server infrastructure I'd have to believe, that is how Wall st works.
The other conclusion I must draw is that the companies that are migrating to Linux as a workgroup server (i.e. replacing Windows NT/2000 Server with Linux) did not have a cohesive Windows network in the first place. Unfortunately, Linux is nowhere near a solution to Exchange, and it's perhaps 25% of the way to replacing a Windows 2000 primary domain controller's capabilities.
Blah, Exchange is an server application it has nothing to do with the rest of the network, and thats why Ximian just released it's Ximian Connector or whatever for Evolution. If Linux does make it on the desktop then their is a migratrion path and I'd figure if Ximian saw something like this coming down the pipe they'd look into replacing Exchange. There just isn't demand for something like that right now.. Just see #1 reply. You can't be serious about the pdc comment; thats all I have to say about that, I mean that is mostly laughable.
So what servers is Merrill Lynch migrating? Linux does have its core competencies -- web servers; application servers; network storage to some degree -- but they didn't mention what part of the infrastructure they were replacing. I would thus take the words "companywide" with a grain of salt in this case.
The article does say they are migrating their sun boxen, so thats what I tend to believe. Whatever functionality their sun boxen had is what they
would reproduce on Linux. Since you say all the above is not possible you should be able to deduce that it's most likely none of the above, once you
deduced that you'd either have the idea to ask Merril Lynch themselves or just leave the question unanswered. "Network storage on Linux" to some degree; stop throwing mud, that is totally unfounded and I and alot of other people would disagree with you. I seem to remember something about Veritas supporting Redhat in those list of companies. Not only that but there are many companies already using linux for their Sans. This comment again is extremely laughable.
"Companywide" I tend to take that meaning anything that was on a sun box that can be reproduce on a linux box and retain the same functionality and
uptime will be replaced with said linux boxen. It's also cheaper; would you like water with that tremendously big grain of salt or will some other
beverage accomdate you simply because it is taken place already or soon will be.
this article has absolutely nothing to do with microsoft (i'm sure to MS's dismay.)
I think that the point is that Wall Street *wants* a reliable OS that will work on commodity hardware, with a support structure. Intel has done a good job making x86 good enough, hardware wise, to rival the capabilities of lower-end RISC stuff. If the OS is similar to something they're using now, like "proprietary" Unixes, so much the better.
If it wasn't Linux, it could be BSD (again, with proper support). If neither of those, it'd be Solaris x86... if Sun had ever gotten a clue. In absence of the above, it could have eventually been Windows.
In any case, x86 would have won. Just be glad that this is good news in some respect against a total WinTel hegemony.
And I quote:
"Even more important, who is accountable?
Linux is an amalgamation of the input of
many companies and individual software
engineers. So whom do you call when it
breaks?"
*gasp* Merril Lynch would be the ones responsible for their own systems. Goodness, we certainly can't have that!
/sarcasm
This argument is so tired. If you're in business and have to worry about whom you can blame if the stuff hits the fan (read YOU SCREW UP), then I'd really prefer you weren't in business. As a customer, I respect a company that owns up to screwing up and making it right. I hold in contempt those that point the finger at someone else.
Anything is possible given time and money.
The Linux should be extremely easy to use for the end users. That I agree with.
It wouldn't take too long to teach a handful of IT people (even, God forbid, MCSEs) to use visual configuration tools to set up email, networking, office suites, login scripts, etc... But it would be much cheaper and faster to have one or two Unix-savvy people write a handful of scripts that could be remotely run to set up each unit.
For a small business, the time lost writing the scripts may be more than the time lost individually setting up each PC. But for a business Merrill Lynch-size, you could cut weeks out of the process.
And just a few days ago, Red Hat's stock took a severe one-day beating. From almost $8 to just over $5. Hopefully this helps it recover.
The theme of the article is the only reason they are doing it is because they can no longer cut costs anymore and need to save as much as possible.
So ideally what they are trying to do is get a stable system or network going so that it doesnt require constant reboots and just works, since the OS is free along with its most important parts they save a bundle on licensing. Then once everything is squared away they can cut their IT staff to minimal proportions due to obsolescence, like the Maytag guy commercials.
How can you mod a anti-MS post as Troll! This is Slashdot after all! ;-)
Actually its a good bit Sun's fault for the lack of non-Intel support for Linux. It would take a pretty minor investment in resources (especially compared to the over abundance of java hacks they have) to keep SPARC support strong in the linux kernel and with gcc but Sun has chosen to stick to Solaris to the exclusion of Linux.
.NET effort) and ensure that Linux/Solaris implementation's of Java are the fastest most robust options available for Internet development.
Sun is really at odds with itself, not unlike IBM in the late 80's, early 90's. Sun's realization that "its the network stupid!" was spot on. BUT - they are a hardware company and that is a completely different business than a software company. The two are fundamentally at odds quite often and they can't really afford to compromise on either one. Therefore, they should fully support Linux and put Solaris out there as yet another Open Source alternative so long as they find it profitable to support Solaris. Then they should make sure that their Java platform runs the best on their hardware if they want to put their marbles in Java (a seemingly plausible idea, especially considering M$oft's
Its really the only space they have credibility in and they seem to go out of their way to alienate their most likely allies against the M$oft onslaught in their marketplace.
Should be a good fight...
Last time I checked eDirectory was nominally available for Linux, and I am sure with a big contract from Wall Street Novell would get to work polishing it up for that platform.
sPh
Actually, the only thing surprising here is that they're talking about it. Wall Street firms usually consider things like this their "competitive advantage" and don't want everyone to know what they're doing. They wouldn't mind if their competitors kept using more expensive proprietary hardware/software solutions...
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
Interesting point, but I'd question some of the assumptions that you make.
/ home_calendar.html) or a bunch of other companies (I've personally verified that some of these solutions are more feature rich, more scalable, and cheaper than Exchange.)
First, you assume that email is the place to make appointments. Try a portal instead - it's generally more secure, and usually has it's information stored in a database (unlike Exchange2k, which won't have a SQL backend until one or two versions from now). Also, if you just want a calendar solution, you can get one from iPlanet (http://www.iplanet.com/products/iplanet_calendar
Second, many companies are implementing or have implemented web-based file sharing instead of more file servers. Why? Simple - they're scalable, provide better uptime, and can be accessed from anywhere (unlike a file share). Even Microsoft has gotten into the act. Ever heard of sharepoint (http://www.microsoft.com/sharepoint/)? It's a tool for sharing documents via the web, and you can even use Netscape as a client. Of course, there are many other solutions, I just wanted to demonstrate that even Microsoft is moving to a web-based file system.
Third, Active Directory - are you serious? Few large companies have implemented it, and many more companies use Novell NDS (also known as eDirectory) than AD. Also, it's much more powerful than AD, and companies that need to manage large user bases (such as Yahoo) use it.
All that aside, I still agree with one main point - "companywide" was not defined in the article, so we'll have to wait and see what they are really doing. Until then, lets not jump to comclusions about what can or cannot be done.
Regards,
-Mark
> HP OpenMail can do everything exchange can, but better.
OpenMail's a lame duck. What happens when the support from HP comes to an end? At least Exchange gets ongoing Microsoft support.
Better to use one of the new Bynari or phpGroupware replacements for Exchange.
I guess they are playing both sides.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2002/fe b0 2/02-13revolutionpr.asp
>> 2) How do you work around the lack of group policy controls in SAMBA? By this I mean forcing a computer to have the most up-to-date anti-virus software when it logs on to the domain; mapping network drives automatically; downloading OS patches automatically through a local server. AFAIK, Samba can't do any of this as well as a Windows 2000 Server can. And what about Active Directory? LDAP isn't as cohesive a solution if you are running Windows clients.
> Blah this can be done if you know what you're doing, with some scripts.
My company's already done this; the IT guys set up a series of Windows batch files to do all this stuff. Works just fine, our file and mail servers are Red Hat 7.0, our desktops are NT 4.0.
I work for one of the largest banks in the world (Top 5) and we almost ditched our entire Windows Server infrastructure in favor of Linux. Why? Not because it wasn't working.
Unlike a lot of MS haters, we know how to use Windows. Strangely enough, when used the way MS intended it works pretty well.
Instead we considered Linux for similar reasons as Merril Lynch. When we asked MS for a deal on licencing our 300+ Windows 2000 Servers the way they did for Windows NT4.0, not only did they say "No" they auditted our current licences and told use we owe them money! They were the ones who sold us the licences in the first place!
So on top of each Windows 2000 Server licence, they want client access licences for EVERY computer (6000+) and a yearly subscription fee for god knows what!
I mean, what's the point of a server if no one can access it? Per-seat licencing for 6000+ workstations?
It wasn't until we weighed it against the cost of redeveloping 120 applications for Linux that we decided to cave. MS knows this. They waited for companies to become dependant on their OS before jacking up the price. What Merril Lynch is doing is not whoop-de-doo! another company went to Linux!, it's truly amazing. For such an enormous organization to revamp on such a huge scale takes cahones.
"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake."...Tyler Durden
Unfortunately, Linux is nowhere near a solution to Exchange
:-)
Of course Linux is no solution to Exchange, but Lotus Domino on Linux would be.... as long as you don't mind using Kaspersky as your antivirus product because McAfee/Norton/Trend do not yet support Domino-on-Linux yet. You can also do the smart thing and keep an Amavis-Sendmail relay between your internal Domino server and the Internet too
...unless of course they get an exemption for buisness use of Linux built into the bill...
1) How do you work around the complete lack of server-side productivity software on Linux servers? By deploying Exchange, you can make scheduling a meeting as easy as sending an email with a time and having everyone click to confirm the meeting, which is then added to everyone's calendar. There is no solution like this without using Exchange (and I've looked.)
HP Openmail (recently taken over by Samsung Contact) does EXACTLY this, no Exchange required. We use it with MAPI drivers for Outlook 2000, and our users love it (because they can use Outlook) and I love it (because, well, no Exchange). You didn't look very hard.
Belloc
1) How do you work around the complete lack of server-side productivity software on Linux servers? By deploying Exchange, you can make scheduling a meeting as easy as sending an email with a time and having everyone click to confirm the meeting, which is then added to everyone's calendar. There is no solution like this without using Exchange (and I've looked.)
You can do this a couple of ways now. One is to use a Outlook with a good IMAP server. Then you configure the clients to publish their free/busy times via WebDAV. This is built into Outlook and works pretty transparently. No costly software on the server at all! This doesn't have all the features that Exchange has, but covers the biggies.
Another more complete approach is to use the software from Bynari. Complete support for Outlook with Unix servers.
2) How do you work around the lack of group policy controls in SAMBA? By this I mean forcing a computer to have the most up-to-date anti-virus software when it logs on to the domain; mapping network drives automatically; downloading OS patches automatically through a local server. AFAIK, Samba can't do any of this as well as a Windows 2000 Server can. And what about Active Directory? LDAP isn't as cohesive a solution if you are running Windows clients.
My impression was that you can use policies with Samba. You just need to use a Windows box to generate the files. Samba also allows you to run scripts on the clients to do whatever you need them to. The scripts can run based on computer name, login name, or domain name. Can be very powerful.
The other conclusion I must draw is that the companies that are migrating to Linux as a workgroup server (i.e. replacing Windows NT/2000 Server with Linux) did not have a cohesive Windows network in the first place. Unfortunately, Linux is nowhere near a solution to Exchange, and it's perhaps 25% of the way to replacing a Windows 2000 primary domain controller's capabilities.
Go to http://www.bynari.net/ and check out their solutions. Very nice.
Samba can work as a PDC quite easily now. It can also allow Unix boxes to join into the domain. Samba takes care of the SID to UID mapping. Very slick. The only thing they don't have completely done right now is Kerberos/AD support. That is coming in Samba 3.0. You can start playing with it right now.
So what servers is Merrill Lynch migrating? Linux does have its core competencies -- web servers; application servers; network storage to some degree -- but they didn't mention what part of the infrastructure they were replacing. I would thus take the words "companywide" with a grain of salt in this case.
Cisco runs all the printers in the company off of Linux. So Linux *can* do file and print quite well.
BTW, you might want to check out a little program called "Directory Administrator." It's a program that manages users in a LDAP directory. The latest version also takes care of managing Samba accounts in LDAP. You get Active Directory without Microsoft.
Has anyone ever successfully sued Microsoft? Oh I forgot - even assuming their EULA didn't hold up in court, $30 billion US in cash reserves (I believe) can get you *very* good lawyers.
If you inisist on using outlook, there was a solution: OpenMail but HP decided to kill it. Which, btw, everyone is assuming it's Sun they are replacing (a safe assumption) but with goofy I'll-do-a-merger-to-keep-my-job-and-blame-company- problmes-on-someone-other-that-I Carly at the helm of HP, I wouldn't be surpised if it's HP they need to drop.
Bynari is another calendaring solution that has been mentioned before for Linux. No, it's not open source, free, or even just like exchange; but it works, is virus free, etc.
As for point 2, I've done the virus thing with a cheesy script on each system, and other such lame sysadmin duct tape approaches taking care of windoze network unfriendly boxes.
Your primary point, the question, "just what are they replacing" is a good one and your conclusions are reasonable. My problem is what I sense inbetween the lines. Your point is that exchange makes outlook really easy to deal with and win2k server takes care of windoze boxes easier. Well, ya got me there. Yup, Linux isn't as good as windows in dealing with windows non-sense. I don't suspect it ever will be, EVEN if they were to play nice as Mr. Stallman suggested oh so long ago. You are suggesting that linux will never be ready for IT b/c IT runs windows clients. This doesn't have to be. Things in a linux server/win client enterprise would have to be different. In some ways it would be better and some ways not. There are of course growing pains - I'm sure you're one of the millions that have had to suffer through years and years of M$'s growing pains, mistakes and lies. Now, "their solutions" (ahem) are mostly workable on few commodity (cough, cough) systems - such as the most expensive Intel systems you could buy. That's one approach. Another might be to buy an old unix server (say, a Sun E450) and centralize each offices services to one reliable system.
My point is that the gap between windows and unix/linux is getting smaller in some ways. Unix apps can be easily recompiled to run (slowly) on your pc, and that win box can now pretend to be a newtwork server. Large unix apps can now sort-of slowly run on small linux installations. But the windows boxes can't scale the same was as unix apps, and certianly can't scale as far and will never scale as big. They are different things, and it is very disingenuous for you to say that unix/linux will never cut it in IT b/c it's not windows. Unix can now go big or go small, and it always goes smart and dresses in style. Don't expect to run a better network with out some effort and growing pains - and if you're running windows, always expect to spend a lot more. This why they are replacing unix and you can bet that if this pilot project goes well, windows will be phased out.
Democrats and Republicans only disagree about how to enslave you
"complete lack of server-side productivity"...
Hmm, I can't decide it you are a troll, a MS drone or an idiot. If I wanted to get Exchange server functionality, I might do something like run Lotus Notes (from IBM), OpenMail (from HP), iPlanet (from Sun/AOL) or the product from Bynari Solutions.
As I can't seriously believe you didn't know about these options, I will now deem you to be a MS drone.
I wonder if this will motivate Sun to buy Red Hat?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
> Linux is killing Big Iron. It's hurting Sun in particular.
I guess you missed all those IBM announcements about how Linux-based Z90 mainframes are a great success, and have boosted their revenues well above expectations. Maybe Linux is killing Big Sun Iron, but Big Blue Iron is doing just fine, thanks.
I saw the headline and thought somehow I was mystically transported back to fall 1999.
Shudder.
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." Sun Tzu
...since this came from Forbes. Not exactly where one would expect to find the most accurate information about technology.
When I read:
I found myself laughing out loud.
Has anyone successfully found Microsoft accountable for broken software? Or CA? Or any software vendor for that matter?
Has anyone heard of Red Hat or any other Linux distributor making people pay licensing fees for the use of the software? Of course, Forbes is confusing a license to use the software (the sort of license that Oracle, for example, makes you pay for) with a support contract (which companies like Oracle make you pay for in addition to the usage license).
The day when Red Hat starts asking people to pay for license keys that have to be loaded on each system or pieces of paper that they need to keep on file is the day they should put a big ``Going Out Of Business'' sign in front of their corporate offices.
Not that I'd expect an old money magazines like Forbes to really understand the difference between Linux and other software products but how difficult would it have been for the writer to have called up someone in the OSS movement to get a comment and, perhaps, make sure the article didn't come off sounding like it was written by someone totally clueless.
Jeez...
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Since when did Active Directory run PDCs anyway?
To use Linux in the way that you described would be to them using it as a toy. Big Important Companies don't just download distro's of Linux and use them as they see fit. No one is going to put their ass THAT far out on the line like that. Instead they want support deals with companies like Red Hat, SuSe or IBM and thats what cost money. Also just because you can download the regular RH distro does not mean they have made the corporate version of RH available for download. Thats the one companies usually pay for.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
ML will not lose accounts due to a pointer being awry. While I have no doubt that bugs occur (what my code is not 100% correct?), few if any are going to lose billions of dollars.
Personally, I am more concerned with the things that I can not find out about. The viruses that run around. The fact that Sun take 180 days to fix security problems. The fact that MS does not fix them.
oaclz
From the phpgroupware website (emphasis added): This doesn't look to me like something I'd be willing to take to a manager (or a client - I'm a consultant) and say "this will replace Groupwise (or Exchange)".
Got any better ideas?
Angus
"A gun is a tool, Marian. No better, no worse than any other tool. An axe, a shovel, or anything." Shane (1953)
I hope they don't put anything important on those servers. It's after all software built by the people who made the memset bug.
In Buffalo there is a radar station that still uses a UNIVAC. They just switched from vacuum tubes a few years ago. This gives new meaning to the phrase, "if it isn't broke, don't fix it."
Financial firms were the primary customer of NeXT Computer (absorbed into Apple, or the other way around). Having been the first commercial object-oriented GUI, it allowed quick development of interfaces for financial software. NeXT would have failed long before, even with Steve's millions.
...is when it uses phrases like "I'm not trolling".
I dub thee a troll.
Why bother.
Ahhh thankyou, finally an equation to explain Brittany Spears . . . and America in general
* * Always question "the National Interest" - 9 times out of 10 it is a cover for evil
Fat chance of that. IBM would outbid any attempt by Sun to acquire RH. IBM is using RH for some of its infrastructure/customer support. Sun's only motivation to acquire RH would be to kill it.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
Redhat (and other OSS companies) should be in the business of insurance. Merille Linch is taking on risk when they install Linux companywide. Why don't they insure against dataloss by paying Redhat? Redhat reimburses them if something does happen and most importantly, incourages Redhat to cuntribute more to make OSS more secure and stable. I could imagine a company paying monthly preminues for a certain performance range ($1000 for Redhat 6.1, $2000 for Redhat 8.1) and then Redhat insuring that performance. This would cause problems if you as a sysadmin wanted to upgrade the performance (change the base distribution, etc..) but I'm sure those could be worked out. Ben
She's actually all three. Look at her posting history: it mainly consists of preachy lectures about why Microsoft has won, and how we should all learn .NET at once. I don't think she knows what a server is. Check out her homepage sometime: a self-described "technology guru". Good fucking Christ. She knows HTML, though! And she complains about being "underemployed".
Damn ex-dotcommers...
the argument that Linux can be used in place of more established technologies like Unix.
I get a bit annoyed at the way all the PHB rags keep using "Unix" to mean "Unixes other than open source ones". The whole notion of picking between "Linux and Unix" just sounds utterly silly from the outset. It's like asking someone if they use NT or do they use Windows.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
OpenMail was purchased by Samsung and is no longer a lame duck. Your call whether buying software from a microwave oven company is a good idea.
5 80 ,00.asp
http://www.eweek.com/article/0,3658,s=1884&a=24
This program is currently in the beta stages, and is intended for developers.
I've deployed it in two offices and it's worked well for light use. Currently, it won't replace Groupwise - but it is less buggy than Exchange. YMMV.
Give it a try. You do have to know what you're doing to install it. (Think database admin)
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
Uh...Marril Lynch is working with terabucks. They NEED some sort of accountability or else they will have to take a loss due to system failure on the chin. What the fuck don't Linuxites understand about accountability? If the seat of your car is attached to the body with gum because someone on the assembly line fucked up and you fly out of the car in a wreck you're going to blame the manufacturer of your car. If a server hiccoughs due to a drunk...fix later bug in some OSS code and millions of insured dollars are lost to the depths of /dev/null, someone is going to be to blame. Kindly insert your retarded sentiments about blame and business up your ass where they belong. It wouldn't be cool for ML to lose an entire country's financial account because some 15 year old KDE contributer was operating on an out of bound pointer.
+3 for this nonsense? What have you been smoking? I work in the brokerage industry and believe me - Solaris and Windows servers crash all the time. That's what disk mirroring and high availability servers are for. What company in their right mind woud keep data in only one place? Also, if you sued your vendor for every little hiccup no one would do any business with you. Go back to grade school and learn something before you talk out of your ass. Lose an entire coutry's financial statement - please. You're an idiot.
The article talks about linux as if it is not remotely related to unix - I view linux as another version of unix like solaris or aix. Does anyone else think this - everytime I read something in the press about linux it's allways the same (and it drives me crazy!).
eg
it also shows that Linux does in fact threaten Unix.
um, linux is unix!
This contrasts with Unix in that developers write software for every version of Unix, including for tools and patches.
oh - and you don't have to write software for linux ?
just my 2 cents worth. you now owe me 2 cents.
For question one.. To quote Ice Cube "Domino! Muthafucka!"
#2 automatically mapping drives? There is a netlogon share in Samba iirc.
ASF
"A gun is a tool, Marian. No better, no worse than any other tool. An axe, a shovel, or anything." Shane (1953)
For these types of things, I think companies might find it cheaper to use linux than normal UNIX. Computation, number crunching. I doubt anybody'd start messing around with the email infrastructure (if it works, then don't mess with it), but computational requirements are always growing, and instead of buying sun boxes, compaq/dell linux looks mighty atractive.
there is no thing
what else could you want?
I guess you just have to think of it in terms of cost-structures, and not arch. For them, it's a different breed of horse, money-wise, and that's what matters.
there is no thing
what else could you want?
It's not like I boot into Windows, say "Computer, write the year-end fiscal report," and go golfing for the afternoon.
Thankfully, you can do just that with our new project, "Year End Fiscals" for linux. Currently in Alpha, version 0.000121001, it'll allow you to simply type "fiscals -yearend" (at a minimum) and walk away while it generates your documents.
Try it out. Features 1,2,3,5,7-22 and 24-492 inclusive have yet to be implemented, but it will properly accept the first of our command line parameters (of which 132 are planned).
We don't have a completed plan, so if anybody can lend a hand, we'd appreciate it. We need coders, project managers, and economists.
At some point in the distant future, when things are working perfectly, we'll also need documentation specialists. Oh, wait - I've been informed that the coders can write the documentation as they go.
Oh yeah - no reliability, no support.
Note: tongue firmly in cheek!
There is a plug-in that you can install on your outlook clients to make them run on any standards compliante IMAP mail server. The same company will also have a cross platform client that offers full exchange/outlook functionality without needing a single Windows machine.
Wine is at the point that it can run Lotus Notes under Linux. Arguably Lotus notes is a much better colaboration environment than Exchange and outlook. With commercial support. I have been thrilled with my crossover plug-in purchase, when I had issues they were resolved in a matter of hours.
When I figured out that outlook and exchange works by sending macros that get executed on my local client with very few access controls I decided to never use that poorly designed monstrosity even if my job depended on it.
Who came up with that title?
ONE firm starts using linux and suddenly the WHOLE financial industry has embraced it? LMAO!
It's like saying, "Govenment embraces Linux," after ONE local government body switches to linux.
If, perhaps, 30-40% of the industry switches over, we might then call it embraced. Until then, forget about it.
About two years ago I met some people in the tech dept. at Merrill. Most of them were very aware of the cost savings involved, but were concerned about how well it would integrate in with their trading workstations, which were all SUNs. The software that was run on those workstations was closed-source, and therefore could not be easily ported.
Since that meeting, I learned of two things that happened. One is that Merrill has moved towards Microsoft Windows 2000 for their trading workstations, because software from Instinet, Reuters and Bloomberg is easily available for that platform. The other thing is that SUN has been using strongarm tactics to try and keep Merrill (and probably other companies) buying their hardware.
I don't have any details on what tactics were being employed, but apparently it lead to this switch to Linux.
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
Same thing you would do if it came to light that something inside Windows NT or Solaris or _____ was found to infringe on a patent.
This just sounds like FUD to me....
Unless maybe you can persuade me that this scenario is for some reason conceivable ONLY under Linux?
Build stuff. Stuff that walks, stuff that rolls, whatever.
Merrill Lynux ?
I put on my robe and wizard hat.
Do you get paid to do propaganda on slashdot, or is it a hobby?
Actually, I consider it a service to humanity. My great gift to the world is to set people straight on the Truth. Slashdot is but a small part of my mission.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
> I get a bit annoyed at the way all the PHB rags keep using "Unix" to mean "Unixes other than open source ones". The whole notion of picking between "Linux and Unix" just sounds utterly silly from the outset. It's like asking someone if they use NT or do they use Windows.
From a cost-to-company point of view, there's quite a difference. Not silly at all if you'd be the one paying for the difference and accounting for it to your boss - or if you'd be the one taking credit for saving all that money.
Hmm, you checked out my homepage, but interestingly enough, you didn't check Netcraft to see what my server was running... ;)
I write these kinds of posts (pro-Microsoft, etc.) for two reasons:
1) People respond with better answers to a post filled with half-truths or a post from someone who they believe is "misinformed";
2) I really do want to know what corporations use if they don't use Microsoft products.
This about it this way: the sales people at Microsoft are out there every day selling their product. They are out there telling your PHB every day that Exchange is better, that SAMBA won't do the half of what Windows 2000 Server will do, and that an all-Windows infrastructure is the way to go.
The real question is: what can you tell your PHB to dispute that?
That's why I write these. Often, the best way to find alternatives is to say something decidedly biased toward one camp. Come on, admit it -- you'd much rather hit "reply" to someone who is wrong or half-right than someone who says "What is the best solution for xxx?" You're also much more likely to provide real, concrete evidence that your product is superior instead of just saying "Hey, Product Y will do xxx! Go check out their homepage."
Now, I can take this information and hand it to the guy who is looking for an Exchange alternative, and I can say, "Look, why don't we check out Products Y and Z, because they might really fit the bill." I can then hand him what is basically a brochure describing migration problems and benefits of changing to the other products. Not only have I provided a solution, but I haven't asked you for bullet points -- I've asked you to prove that your product is better.
It's marketing, pure and simple. I learn infinitely more by writing what I hear from Microsoft salespeople and having Slashdotters prove it wrong than I would asking a question somewhere. Plus, I get to hear and make contact with people who have actually used the product. And in some cases, I get people admitting that the Microsoft solution is the best one out there, in which case that is what I will take back to my customers.
Try it sometime. You might be surprised at what you can learn.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
So much anger.
Sounds like you need a hug.
{{{ YOU }}}
hth
How big are they?
I only have a 15" screen.
Commander Taco
Posting anonymously to preserve my sweet karma
... so a company like cp.net that has unix/linux daemons that replace exchange server functionality for less doesn't count? ... cheaper and more uptime!
yes.
cpeterso
note that IBM is now doing deals with Suse: "IBM and SuSE Team To Offer a New Generation of Enterprise Ready Linux Services". I bet IBM is trying to scare Red Hat, so IBM can bargain a lower price when they eventually buy out Red Hat.
cpeterso
In most companies I have worked for NT people administer in average less machines (far many less) that similarly sized groups of UNIX people.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
What would the costs have been like? This is not your average my_Mac_is_better_than_your_ass post. It's an honest question? Considering that every mac comes with a free IDE which supports Java, C, C++ and ObjC and that they hook up fine in a Linux server environment, would the costs of redeveloping the 120+ applications have been?
I worked for ML for a couple of years:
-Yes, all email is handled with Exchange.
-Windows is not used much for critical stuff (Sun shop, some IBM stuff).
Internal development is mainly UNIX development. I can't think of much stuff that was done in NT machines...
Active directory? You are joking, right?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I don't think that all that excessive.
The problem with the Linux folks is not that there aren't alternatives. The real problem is that Linux people are so busy trying to fight Microsoft that they forget what they do well in the first place. This Ximian Connector thing is utter bullshit and will sell to companies with a few die hard guys that refuse to use Exchange. So what? Read your mail in Emacs for crying out loud.
The desktop takeover is a wet dream of every Linux geek. For what? Not enough stuff to talk about by the foosball table? Marketing people and higher level executives like Windows because that's what they were trained on in school. So what?
I hate Exchange and Outlook and subsequently would never use it. If somebody tries to schedule me for a meeting with that stupid calendar shit, well forget it. If you want me to show up, give me a call or send me an e-mail. I won't check the calendar because I don't want to. If the company doesn't like that; fuck them. I'll find another job where I don't have to bend over backwards for some unsavvy people who think they own me.
1) How do you work around the complete lack of server-side productivity software on Linux servers? By deploying Exchange, you can make scheduling a meeting as easy as sending an email with a time and having everyone click to confirm the meeting, which is then added to everyone's calendar. There is no solution like this without using Exchange (and I've looked.)
That is simply not true. First, you completely ignore that the primary competition to Exchange (and better product) is Lotus Notes. Exchange still does not equal Notes. And importantly, Lotus Domino server (ie Notes) runs on Linux. You can download it and try it free.
As for usefullness, I work for a large corporation that uses Notes extensively. We recently merged with another company of size similar but slightly less than ours that ran with Exchange. After the merger, they were converted to Notes. As a big plus to comment was recently made that they have seen a huge decrease in virus contamination after the conversion to Notes from Exchange/Outlook.
2) How do you work around the lack of group policy controls in SAMBA? By this I mean forcing a computer to have the most up-to-date anti-virus software when it logs on to the domain; mapping network drives automatically; downloading OS patches automatically through a local server. AFAIK, Samba can't do any of this as well as a Windows 2000 Server can. And what about Active Directory? LDAP isn't as cohesive a solution if you are running Windows clients.
We use a scripting language (Kixstart), kicked off at logon by a batch file on the logon server(s). With this we do indeed check the upgrade status of virus software and a lot of other things, map drives, apply patches, upgrades, etc etc. There is no reason that I know of that this wouldn't run on a Samba/Linux box. In fact, I am thinking of setting up a test box at home to do this, primarily to customize my logon at home and automate some stuff there.
We don't use Active Directory yet, but it looks like we are going that way. Originally we were going to use Novell NDS to do this, but this is a Microsoft shop (probably means penalties if we don't) so that has changed. The workstations are a mixture of Win2k, NT 4, and some Win95/98.
But the point here again is that Novell NDS also runs on Linux. There is a solution on Linux, and a better one most likely, except for the Micosoft tax if you have it.
The writer was not making a distinction between the services being purchased from RedHat, and the price of the software itself.
She wondered about "large scale licensing issues" and "patent infringement", neither of which are issues at all.
"Free" software, like air, does not eliminate the costs involved with its use. You still have to pump up your own tires, or pay the cost of a compressor, but the air is still "free".
The real bonus is that there is no catch, no hidden costs, and no BSA. I made sure to point this out in my letter to the editor of Forbes. I hope they read it.
Bob-
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
This quote kills me: "Also, contrary to popular belief, Linux is not really "free."
Of course, there is no accompanying explanation to this statement... specifically, how is Linux "not really 'free'"??? I didn't pay a dime for any of my installations, and I'm not breaking any rules... do they mean Linux support isn't free? What the hell?
From the MS.Net kickoff that I went to, I was given the impression that they were just using .NET for their 800 service.
Just another idiot with mod points.
I guess they are playing both sides.
.Net and put all they're stuff on Linux servers? That would be pretty stupid don't you think? They're actually a major MS house but there's a major Sun precence here too of-course. They do a lot of COM and other MS stuff I don't know about being a UNIX person. They do Java quite a bit but probably not more than MS. They are actually very keen about new and useful technologies. They use Perl, Python, PHP, etc. There are a few people who have been running Linux workstations for a looong time just like any other sophisticated IT group. Remember we're talking about a pretty big company; they have 60,000 people in 40 different countries and each department or region can differ quite a bit in the technologies they choose to use.
Why do you think ML should just ignore
Does anyone know what the article means by company-wide? It doesn't go into much detail. Exactly what sort of systems are being replaced by Linux?
I have a website. It's about Macs.
For starters if I'm managing hundreds, let alone thousands of users / systems I'll take powerful scripting tools over rich 'gui' tools anyday.
having everyone click to confirm the meeting, which is then added to everyone's calendar. There is no solution like this without using Exchange (and I've looked.)
True, this probably doesn't exist, otoh I can write a calendaring app in PHP/SQL in a couple of days that will work just fine (and won't open my entire network ot the email virus-du-jour exploit.)
2) How do you work around the lack of group policy controls in SAMBA?
Easy, deploy AFS. it scales better than SMB, has full ACL controls and costs less. I imagine there are poeple who deploy terabyte scale network storage in win2k but there's no question which one I'd rather run, especially over a widely distributed enterprise.
As I read the article ML might be doing the whole shebang. I don't think the details come across very well in forbes-speak but "Merrill can write an application once and then deploy it with minimal work on mainframes, minicomputers, desktops, laptops and handhelds" sure sounds like they're looking at linux everywhere.
companies that are migrating to Linux as a workgroup server (i.e. replacing Windows NT/2000 Server with Linux) did not have a cohesive Windows network .... [Linux is] perhaps 25% of the way to replacing a Windows 2000 primary domain controller's capabilities.
I know people who work at ML, they undertand how to deploy nt/w2k. As for Linux/unix vs an nt/w2k domain controller from my POV you have the equation backward.
MS finally deployed DNS in place of WINS long after it became abundantly clear that WINS doesn't scale for large (or for that matter medium) enterprises.
Similarly, kerberos has run on unix for decades. NT4 should have been deployed with Kerberos in 1995, but MS seems to only want to adopt open standards when all other options have failed.
Linux is Linux, if One need clarify their dist: <Dist>/GNU Linux
bsds are of course just BSD
I'm sorry, but wasn't there a story about this exact scenario being implemented not all too long ago? Perhaps someone should tell Carey that it is politically correct to trust linux for the critical stuff too.
Russian Russian Russian RussianDollSig DollSig DollSig DollSig
In any large company you are going to have a large variety of technologies.
Notice how Mr. Vielehr is identified as CTO, but there is the phrase "private client technology" behind that... That's probably a separate division of the company and they do things differently than other divisions.
The way this Linux article is worded, they are replacing some of their systems with Linux... most likely existing Sun systems from the sound of it. But that doesn't preclude that they also have a great many Windows systems, both desktop and server.
Your obviously missed something while you were "looking". Use Outlook client with Bynari InsightConnector... Use ANY IMAP server to replace Exchange with COMPLETE FUNCTIONALITY. Exchange's little secret is that everthing is done in email.
"You won't find NT in operation anywhere the word "vital" is important on Wall St. "
For a short time I got stuck on an assignment supporting a trading floor at a large brokerage of one of the big 5 banks. Windows was everywhere. The NASDAQ systems, Bloomberg, Instinet, Bridge, etc. on and on and on. If you don't think any of this was mission critical, I would have loved to hand you the phone when a trader called wondering why our Bridge feed was not updating.
We were also heavily dependent upon Mainframe and Sun components. I don't recall ever seeing OS/2 there. In fact, the only time I've ever seen OS/2 used in a banking environment is as a smart 3270 emulator to connect to a mainframe.
I am curious, if you've never worked in the financial industry why do you purport to provide answers to this guys questions?
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It is very good news that Merrill Lynch is doing this. They do stocks and bonds and other financial activities so their business is very IT intensive. They really know their IT and so if they are for linux and consider it reliable and the most cost-efficient solution, then it will convince many other companies to take a serious look at it.
For the last several years, I worked in wire and cable manufacturing, where we still use vacuum tubes. They seem to be the perfect amplifiers in high voltage test equipment (up to 150KV.) Interestingly, they are much more reliable than their transistor counterparts, most likely due to the abusive environment of high voltage and corona discharges.
:)
Linux? Yeah, I saw it sneak in just a little. A bit of that was my doing.
mmmm, microwaave :()
Of course they are. The ARE Linux. In fact they are better than Linux because their distro makes Linux accessible to the person we are trying to convince to invest in Linux, the jackass. They make it so easy to install, even easier than winblows sometimes. They give you a rich selection of business tools, not a bunch of config files to edit DJBernstein shit that only some BSD faggot loves, but something that can solve a problem today. That is why Microsoft succeeds. THey solve problems. Red Hat will solve problems. however, the cult behind DJBernstein solves problems only when there is someone who is patient enough to read his horrible documentation. Yes, his software works, and is fantastic. But I cannot convince anyone to put money into it if they cannot make the slightest sense of it. Sorry slashdot readers!!!
I don't work in the financial industry but I know alot of people who do. The traders systems might have been as mission critical as them getting irate with you on the phone; and yes their systems are critical. But that's just front end the real work that goes on behind the scenes usually use unix.. For instance http://about.bloomberg.com/blpsupport is frontend shit.. in the background mostly everything is Unix http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/9906/sunflas h.990615.20.html
I mean this is just shit I'm pulling up from google mind you. So unless everyone is lying.. thats what they run. As for OS/2 you should go to your local bank and look at the tellers screen. You'll either see OS/2 or NT with an open connection with them running Unix to check your accounts. NT, OS/2 for the desktop it's not vital but banks etc at least last time I checked still usually never tend to use NT for their financial stuff. However for instance Chase Manhattan Bank has NT with these little terminals open using a Unix system. Again feel free to check yourself. ATM's use OS/2 etc etc the list goes on. For a while there was a big lets use NT and 2000 and all that.. However the atm's still use the same exact thing.
Yes, proprietary unix and open source unix are very different, and there's a need to have different terms to refer to them. But it's a lie to do it in a way that you call one unix and one not unix. It's insulting to linux, like saying "Would you like to buy a Ford or would you like to buy a truck?"
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
I never said there was no difference. But they should have used different terms to describe that difference, instead of doing it in a way that carries the implication that only proprietary unixen are Unix.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
that IBM steps in with their portfolio.
1000 SlashDot sigs
When they say Unix, they mean "vendor lock-in OS". They mean the platform-specific OS that's needed to run on HP servers (HPUX), or Sun servers (Solaris), or IBM servers (AIX), or SGI servers (IRIX), etc. It's a clear distinction in my mind.
:-)
Unix = incompatible, vendor lock.
Linux = compatible, architecture neutral.
Think of it that way and it will sound natural in no time.
the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
While the news is great, this article is a pretty crappy linux showcase. It has all the FUD packed in. "Rick Carey has staked his reputation and his job on a project that he concedes is risky"
If there's anything that would get a manager to not suggest linux, it's that line.
-no broken link
Credit Suisse is a partner of MSN
how this sort of message ALWAYS comes up with this sort of story.
You can run a Lotus Domino server on Linux. It can handle the above and more.
the way he talks, you'd think he runs ATC systems at weekends as a hobby.
when i read that i just thought "what a stupid comment" and tuned out.
This article is obviously bogus. Everyone knows Gordon Gecko makes all the decisions on Wall Street.
every good news that involves Linux and bad news for M$ gives me a woody...
8======================>
Wall Street Embraces Linux
No they don't. Merrill Lynch is. Forbes can use this flashing headline and get away with it, but I find it improper that slashdot, which targets a more insightful (?) audience, is using eyeball-grabber titles as well.
Maybe they're using GNOME .NET ?
Err, arn't the fastest computers in the world clusters of Intel processors?
For that matter, what'd you prefer to have on your desk, a SunBlade "workstation" or a 2GHz PC?
Sun's hardware is basically crap nowadays. 500MHz processor, 128M RAM, IDE disk and a display card with 4M memory don't make a workstation even if you put it in a Sun Pizza box and add top it with a 21" Sun monitor. I'll take the monitor and attach it to a PC thanks!
I'm a contractor at CSFB, who were also mentioned as Linux fans in the article, and I can tell you that it's the most pro-Microsoft place I've ever worked in.
It's very gung-ho, with production implementations of .NET-based apps being written despite .NET having no proven stability at all...
Not sure how I'm still here, really. I write mostly Java and Perl code.
In addition to this, I -guarantee- that Nasdaq's backend doesn't use windows except as terminals to the real servers. I've been in their data recovery center. I -KNOW- what they're running.
There are single pieces of hardware that they spent 7 figures (or more) on, and you think they're gonna put windows on it? Not hardly.
Unisys, Sun and Tandem rule the day in the heart of Nasdaq. They use windows for the webservers, and for their terminal applications, and that's just about it.
Company wide means nothing in this case. All this means is that Merrill is replacing a few boxes here and there that happen to be in different departments.
Trust me, Merrill has replaced very, very little production equipment with Linux. The head of one of the technology groups, Chris Corrado, likes Linux, but the rest of the company could care less. No one has budget right now to move anything to different architecture. They just laid off 9,000 remember?
I am really suprised that this even made the news. It is really more of a non event.
- In addition to OpenMail and Notes, try Corporate Time ( www.steltor.com). A much more robust calendaring app then Exchange will ever be. It runs on Linux and supports Outlook as a client.
It's been deployed in lots of big companies and universities (BMW apparently has 40,000 seats).
- You can quite happily use group policies with Samba. And mapped drives and anti-virus updates are a snap via logon batch file. We've got over 1,500 Windows 98 machines going all that right now. I'm typing this from one with 5 mapped drives and the latest NAV signature files which were automatically installed.
Sure, it's not point and click, buy a third party tool, MS way of doing things, but it's not too darned difficult to do either. It's all clearly dosumented in the Samba docs, I suggest you take a look.In addition, our file servers have been up for almost a year (no reboots except for power outages since deployment). While our Exchange 2000 servers (with AD, soon to be replaced with a real LDAP directory) have to be rebooted at least once a week due to memory leaks in the Exchange services. Licensing costs for Linux deployemt for file and print (the stuff that works) $0. Costs for Exchange 2000 server, licenses, etc. that doesn't work : over $70,000. Which one was the better business decision ?
Company wide means nothing in this case. All this means is that Merrill is replacing a few boxes here and there that happen to be in different departments.
Trust me, Merrill has replaced very, very little production equipment with Linux. The head of one of the technology groups, Chris Corrado, likes Linux, but the rest of the company could care less. No one has budget right now to move anything to different architecture. They just laid off 9,000 remember?
I am really suprised that this even made the news. It is really more of a non event.
And, BTW, NT is EVERYWHERE at Merrill, web, email, vpn, file servers, print servers, are all completely NT based. There are thousands of NT servers used all over the place.
After skimming the first couple hundred responses, it's not hard to tell what camp a responder is in. The M$ drones cringe and spout doom when another big corp leaves the M$ village of perpetual license renewal.
The M$ drones have a different slant than yesterday's "Toasting of Linux". Hip Hip Hurray!
The real problem is that Linux people are so busy trying to fight Microsoft that they forget what they do well in the first place.
It's partly that some people appear to think that the best way to compete with Windows is to clone Windows apps warts and all. e.g. allowing, even expecting, non techie end users to know what IP addresses and TCP ports are. In order to get their web browser to work.
Marketing people and higher level executives like Windows because that's what they were trained on in school.
There must be some places with some very young senior managers. Most such people would have left school long before even Windows V1 came along. More that they want Windows because Microsoft has promoted it as the only thing, using methods both legal and illegal.
"Even more important, who is accountable? Linux is an amalgamation of the input of many companies and individual software engineers. So whom do you call when it breaks?"
Old moot. If you want accountability when something breaks, get a contract with a service company. Just call IBM, or SUN, or LinuxCare, or RedHat, or whichever company you want to use for service to your car^H^H^Hoperating system.
"Also, contrary to popular belief, Linux is not really "free." How are large-scale licensing agreements to be worked out?"
Suit-talk. You don't need to 'work out a licence agreement', you either accept the GPL and use Linux, or you don't accept it and don't use Linux.
Sure, the service company isn't free but nobody is forcing you to use a service company. In some companies, the internal IT department can very well be made capable to do all servicing themselves. Oil change? Brake pads? 'apt-get install oil task-brake' (yes in my dreams)
You want 'accountability'? Then you pay somebody for the right to blame them.
"Would I put an air traffic control system on Linux right now? No," says Carey,chief technology architect at Merrill.
I didn't know ML made air traffic control systems? What's the statement for then?
--- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
If you have a legcy app the only runs on MS-DOS, or Windows, then you get Microsoft Terminal Server and Citrix. Or you get a Sun desktops, and plop in one of their Intel-PC-On-A-Pci-Cards and run Windows at native speeds. There are other options.
The other alternatives would be running the app in it's own virtual machine which automatically resets the install everytime it is run (using dosemu, wine, vmware, win4lin, plex86, etc) effective against both viruses and Windows "bit rot".
First, you assume that email is the place to make appointments.
This appears indicative of a certain mentality that the way Microsoft have done things is the best way. In some cases they appear to have implimented things in what looks more more the worst way...
Try a portal instead - it's generally more secure, and usually has it's information stored in a database (unlike Exchange2k, which won't have a SQL backend until one or two versions from now).
I'm not convinced there is much point having this information in a complex database. Plain text files with cron scheduled jobs to manage notification (be it email, direct messaging to a workstation, SMS to a phone, etc) and cleaning/archiving old entries would be a far simpler way to do things.
We use a scripting language (Kixstart), kicked off at logon by a batch file on the logon server(s).
IIRC Kixstart originates from within Microsoft. Though they actually provide by default the crude LMSCRIPT...
Must be one of those political things since some of Microsoft's documentation implies that their policy/roaming profile stuff is a subsitute for decent login scripting. Which is utter nonsense.
NEW YORK - Rick Carey has staked his reputation and his job on a project that he concedes is risky--but with potentially huge returns. He is the person in charge of a top-down implementation of Linux software at Merrill Lynch.
Credit Suisse First Boston, which has been working with Linux since late 2000, has replaced some of its Unix technology.
Nasdaq's backend systems at the trading partners are Suns. They use Windows NT as the front end user interface devices. I don't know what they use at NASDAQ itself, but my guess would be Mainframes of some sort due to the trading volume.
But that doesn't matter, the front end systems are just as mission critical as the back end systems. The traders would frequently slam their fists into the keyboard if the backend systems didn't respond immediately. Keyboards were our #1 repair item on the Windows clients.
"I don't work in the financial industry but I know alot of people who do."
r ontiers .htm
...
Yeah, that's what I figured. This of course makes you an "expert."
"But that's just front end the real work that goes on behind the scenes usually use unix."
No, most of the back end resides on mainframes.
"I mean this is just shit I'm pulling up from google mind you. "
I thought you had friends?
"So unless everyone is lying.. thats what they run."
Press releases don't tell the full story.
"As for OS/2 you should go to your local bank and look at the tellers screen. You'll either see OS/2 or NT with an open connection with them running Unix to check your accounts. "
Banks don't use Unix, they use Mainframes. Those systems were built 30-40 years ago, and the cost of migrating is more than simply maintaining them. That, and the Unix systems just don't have the I/O capacity to handle the transaction volume.
But as I said, yes OS/2 is used in banks, but primarily as a smart 3270 terminal. It allows them to easily pull the data with a screen scrape and print out a customized form for the customer.
"However for instance Chase Manhattan Bank has NT with these little terminals open using a Unix system."
Again, I'd be surprised if they used Unix in that capacity.
"ATM's use OS/2 etc etc the list goes on."
Again because of the easy connection into the Mainframe systems that run the ATM networks. I also happen to have a friend who used to work for the Shazam network, so I'm familiar with that. I also have a friend who worked for an ATM manufacturer out of Omaha.
Not all ATM's use OS/2, most are actually moving away from that now towards embedded Windows, etc.
I can use google.com as well:
http://special.northernlight.com/banking/f
...According to Jerry Silva, a senior analyst with the Needham, MA- based TowerGroup, IBM OS/2 operating systems are phased out in the next few years, Windows NT and especially Windows 2000 will enter the forefront, giving banks a chance to ask, "'OK, what can we do with the ATMs now to make them more effective?"
Today I happen to work in the mortgage industry, and we're heavily reliant upon Windows and Unix. But that's primarily because mortgages is a fairly new industry just spun up over the past 20 years.
Ohwell.
How about we agree to disagree and move on. There are much more useful things we could debate over. I'm going by heresay and I've never worked in a financial institution this is what I've heard from friends. If you'd like you can debate with them, we are conducting a coding fest this weekend so I'll give them this link and let them respond.
just cut and paste this macro into your favorite terminal emulator and send the message. Pine will parse the macro, convert it into code that sendmail uses to manage the message, and viola, you can have your meeting:
.create_email(%msg(rtrn_rcpt)
.schedul e_app(app1[], sendmail, 12)
Hey Bob,
Let's do lunch at 1:00 tomorrow. If you can make it, let me know. If you think you'll forget, run a cron job to make something pop up on your screen every couple of minutes, that's high tech, eh?
-aaron
ps. Ignore those couple of lines of gibberish at the top, they're just there to make someone who thinks there something fancy about hitting a button labeled "Accept" instead of "Reply". We've already discussed the idea of pop-ups. Haha!
I click on the tarfile (or a ZIP file, for that matter, only it doesn't compress as well as gzip or bzip2) in my Konqueror window, and it pops up a GUI archive manager. The same thing happens in Nautilus. And has done for years.
A manager would call it an archive file anyway. Or even a ZIPfile, out of habit.
Do you even use this software you speak so authoritatively for?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Look, computers are a tool not a religion.
Wall St does not give a shit about your little anti-Microsoft rants, they are going to use tools which serve the purpose for what they need. And right now Windows happens to make the best platform for user interfaces, as well as the best platform for web application servers. So they get used in those roles frequently.
Unix and the Mainframes also have roles that they are well suited towards. The great thing is, you can interconnect all of these machines together and get best of many worlds.
Heh, don't get mad, get facts.. I have nothing against Microsoft except their practices as an illegal monopoly. You might wanna read more of my posts on your free time. As for wall st, I'd love to see you go somewhere with this idea that NT is running financials. NT in every datacenter eh?? heh
Come on.. seriously.
i have karma to spare. mod me down, boys.
moox. for a new generation.