Wireless Carriers Accused of Antitrust Violations

phoneboy writes "From Wireless Consumers Alliance: A class-action lawsuit was filed on April 5 in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York on behalf of wireless consumers seeking to end the control of the handset market by wireless carriers. Read the Antitrust Complaint. While the complaint is fairly short and easy to understand, a summary is in order: The carriers basically dictate required features to handset manufacturers. Phones are tied to specific carriers and cannot be moved between carriers. Carriers refuse to allow handsets on their network they didn't approve. Handset manufacturers thus cannot sell handsets that aren't approved by carriers because carriers will not allow them to be used. All of this rises costs for the consumer, making it difficult and more expensive to switch carriers, and unfairly restrains trade for both handsets and cellular services. As someone who recently tried subscribing to AT&T's new GSM service with an unlocked GSM phone (they didn't allow me to "activate" the service unless I bought one of their phones), I'll be watching this case very closely."

Comments

Slashdot is dying!

[Pr0n K1ng]

Blackout this, you fucking dweeb!

Get it in you!

Sig Heil, Michael!

[Sims Youth]

Vorwärts! Vorwärts! Schmettern die hellen Fanfaren.
Vorwärts! Vorwärts! Jugend kennt keine Gefahren.
Slashdot, du wirst leuchtend stehn,
mögen wir auch untergehn.

Vorwärts! Vorwärts! Schmettern die hellen Fanfaren.
Vorwärts! Vorwärts! Jugend kennt keine Gefahren.
Ist das Ziel auch noch so hoch,
Jugend zwingt es, doch!

Unsre Linux es brechen uns voran..
In die Zukunft ziehen wir Mann für Mann.
Wir moderieren für Michael durch Nacht und durch not
Mit der betriebssystem für Freiheit und Brot.

Unsre Linux es brechen uns voran.
Unsre Linux ist die neue Zeit.
Und Linux führt uns in die ewigkeit!
Ja, Linux ist mehr als der Tod!

Jugend! Jugend! Wir sind die Zukunft Arschspielwaren.
Jugend! Jugend! Träger der kommenden Taten.
Ja, durch unsre Fäuste fällt,
wer sich uns entgegenstellt.

Jugend! Jugend! Wir sind die Zukunft Arschspielwaren.
Jugend! Jugend! Träger der kommenden Taten.
Führer, wir gehören dir,
wir kameraden dir!

Unsre Linux es brechen uns voran.
In die Zukunft ziehen wir Mann für Mann.
Wir moderieren für Michael durch Nacht und durch not
Mit der betriebssystem der Jugend für Freiheit und Brot.

Unsre Linux es brechen uns voran.
Unsre Linux ist die neue Zeit.
Und Linux führt uns in die ewigkeit!
Ja, Linux ist mehr als der Tod!

fp

[Anonymous Coward]

what is that w00t thing anywayz?

don't forget!

[damiam]

T(H)GSB [slashdot.org]

Last Chance to See! The final opportunity to discuss this before the lights go out [slashdot.org]

Questions? There are answers here! [slashdot.org]

Saved for posterity, from a discussion about the new subscription system:

... while I don't mean to dismiss the value
of comment posters, the percentage of readers
that read comments is small. Yes comments draw
readers, and keep them coming back. But half
of readers don't care! An accepted story
submission provides a benefit to hundreds
of thousands of Slashdot readers. A Score:3
comment is read by 1/50th of that. So if we
decide that an accepted story submission is
worth 1000 page views, you would need to post
perhaps 50 Score:3 comments to affect the
same number of people :)

A statistic in the hand of the ignorant is more dangerous than a gun in the hand of a child. Malda's dismissal of the importance of comments [slashdot.org] reflects on the inability of Slashdot's "editors" to understand the way communities work.

For the record, my feelings on the Slashdot Subscription Embroglio rests firmly in the uninterested. I have almost zero opinion on the final outcome of subscriptions. I love Slashdot, and will probably subscribe at some point to support the site, but the details are dull (to me).

Says Rob Malda, "... while I don't mean to dismiss the value of comment posters, the percentage of readers that read comments is small. Yes comments draw readers, and keep them coming back. But half
of readers don't care!" In that case, Slashdot would be much better served by dumping the flaky and irritating overhead of a DB server and filling the pipe with a longer "Favorites" list--which, essentially, is what Slashdot is once you strip away the comments and comment posters. This is where a meaningless SQL query puts dangerous statistics in the hand of the ignorant. If Malda thinks that he can divine real knowledge from a SELECT query, he is sadly mistaken. While I do not doubt the validity of the numbers, I seriously doubt the validity of his extrapolation of the data. The ebb and flow of a community cannot be read from the tea leaves of an Apache log file.

This easy dismissal of the value of the only providers of interesting and insightful content on Slashdot is offensive. Thus, I propose a small revolt. The (Hopefully) Great Slashdot Blackout.

T(H)GSB will be during the week of April 21 through April 27. Easy to remember, the full moon in April falls on the 27th. During that time, I will not be posting, nor will I click through to read the comments from the home page. I will become as Malda's idea of the typical Slashdot reader. I will provide no new content (neither comments, nor story submissions--although I'm not much of a story submitter).

During that week, I'd like to see if Malda sees Slashdot become a better place, or if it becomes the Hallowed Shrine of Troll. I'd like for the logs to be revisited and new queries run. And, I'd like for the "editors" to really see what the true value of Slashdot is--not the sum of click-throughs and page-views, but the sharing of knowledge and dissemination of information; the passing of experience from the more to the less.

This is where the (Hopefully) comes in. This is only meaningful if enough free content-providers (i.e., comment posters) agree to go along and participate. If there is only me and a handful of others who cease normal activities during that week, it will be pretty meaningless. Barely a dent will be made, and Malda and the other "editors" will never realize the incredible value they receive from comment posters.

To spread the word, I'm changing my sig to link to this journal entry. If you would like to help, you can link to this journal from your own sig, or you can simply resolve to enter into a voluntary one-week blackout. Pass the word. This will only work if a goodly number of comment posters participate.

To summarize, if you wish to participate, during the week of April 21 through April 27

• Do not click through from the home page to the comment page
• Do not post any comments to stories
• Do not submit new stories

A useful HTML link to this journal entry (69 characters, should fit in most sigs). You'll probably have to unfungle it after the lameness filter gets through with it:

<a href="http://slashdot.org/~rho/journal/5872">T( H)GSB</a> Apr 21-27

Last Chance to See! The final opportunity to discuss this before the lights go out [slashdot.org]

Questions? There are answers here! [slashdot.org]

eek eek

[Anonymous Coward]

Fiz-erst Piz-ost I iz-ope?

trollburger

[TrollBurger]

i would of got first post but the FBI cracked the 1024 bit encrytion on my box and I was being questioned all day about me using decss to search for (using cat recogniation aligrims (sp?)) those single frame ads in popular movies convincing that "Microsoft is not an monopoly".

Oh yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

I know I don't have the first post.

FP FOR SOCIALISM

[Anonymous Coward]

FUCK YOU, LOGGED IN TROLLS!

can you say

[Anonymous Coward]

FirSt ......................POstEr

Slashdot blackoutT!%%%%%%%%%!

Deja vu.

[BitterOak]

This sounds very much like the situation with telephones before deregulation. There was a day when only phones supplied by the phone company could be attached to their networks. Then deregulation forced them to accept other manufacturer's phones.

The question is, what is the current state of regulation in the wireless arena? Do regulations currently exist similar to the old phone regulations? If not, how do the wireless carriers enforce their hardware requirements?

Re:Deja vu.

[littlerubberfeet]

Well, phones were standard enough that one could circumvent or "hack", if you will, the phone system. This is not really possible unfortunately given the personal serial numbers, etc built into the phones. So, now wireless networks can boot unliscenced phones. Someone merely needs to make the phone they want look like a legitimate phone. Problem: have to buy 2 phones. I agree, separate the carriers from the phones. What if I don't want nokia crap?

Re:Deja vu.

[Anonymous Coward]

One of such lawsuits was dropped.

In att wireless newsgroup there was a storm of messages about the suite.

But there is even more questions about the merit of this litigation:
1. Affiliate definition (page 13, paragraph 56). I can be in "ROAMING" area, does that mean roamer is an affiliate? Even though I was charged for it?
2. Paragparh 58 is not true for VoiceStream -- they allow you to unlock your phone and use different SIM card, and different SID-related logic
3. Handset with incompatible standards cannot be moved to another carrier even if it was possible (as well as special software for network-depended features).
4. Paragraph 62 is baseless. There are dual-system (and triple-system) telephones, those that support TDMA and GSM, TDMA/AMPS and GSM
5. Paragraph 64: carriers still offer cheap/free/subsidised phones of correct system. Therefore argument "I want my GSM nokia on Sprint" is not valid. Consumer benefits of having old model from different system ported onto new carrier network are questionable at least. GSM Phones (VoiceStream) can be ported if needed, and carriers do not prevent people from buying unlocked (and very expensive ;) ) phones for the full price.

I would love if they instead sued FCC for imposing charges that actually represent undeclared tax and can be up to 30% of the service cost (which is true for land lines as well) and for allowing postponding of Cellular Number Portability requirement. I bet it will be postponed again this year ;)

Ayn Rand licked my hairy scrotum!

[Pr0n K1ng]

nt biznizitch

Brick

[Mao Zedong]

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Carterphone et. al. ... again

[bferrell]

Is MCI part of the Wireless COnsumers Alliance?

Bravo! Bravo!

[Dalroth]

Bravo!

This is highly needed. I am a big fan of Nokia phones, to the point where I won't use any other brand of phone. Unfortunately, I signed up for access with Sprint PCS 2 years ago, and a little over a year ago I extended my contract (it won't be over until May).

When I signed up with Sprint PCS, Nokia phones were an option. Today they aren't, and no matter how many times I've contacted them things don't seem to be changing.

My only choices are to (A) continue to use my 3 year old phone, (B) move on to a new provider, or (C) get a non-Nokia phone.

None of those options are satisfactory to me.

(A) my phone is outdated and no longer has the features I require. It is over large, gets horrible reception in my new Apartment, and the battery hardly lasts a day.

(B) I would have to change my phone number as I was told I could not switch my current phone number over to the new provider (it is owned by Sprint). Secondly, my options are AT&T and Verizon who are both far worse companies than Sprint (in my experience anyway).

(C) There are few phones I like, and after past experiences with current cell phone companies I've chosen to remain with Nokia, not just because I like their phones but because I like the way they run their business.

As you can see, I am in a no win situation. Any choice I make leads me to make some sort of a compromise. While this lawsuit will unfortunately not go through the courts quick enough to be a benefit to me, it is long overneeded and I can only hope it helps keep others from experiencing these same problems in the future.

Bryan

Re:Bravo! Bravo!

[Mao Zedong]

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Re:Bravo! Bravo!

[NineNine]

Dude, you sound incredibly anal about your fucking phone. Get a life. It's a *telephone*. Put it in some perspective. Get a phone, talk on it, go away.

Re:Bravo! Bravo!

[XO]

Bryan,

Unfortunatly, this lawsuit, if successful, would likely bring upon the world a gigantic shit pile of junk phones - I'm certain that Sprint PCS and Verizon would LOVE to have Nokia phones available besides the forever standby of the 5185 and the "newish" 3285 models.

However, UNTIL Nokia turns out a handset that has decent quality of service, that will operate on CDMA, don't expect SPCS or Verizon to accept that!

One thing that I do know is that Verizon phones MUST all have pull out antennas - not only do the phones receive better service, they have longer battery life times, and you're not putting as much radiation into yer head. I don't know if SPCS has adapted this policy or not, but last summer was the last time that I saw a fixed antenna SPCS phone, so maybe they have.

It's not all about features - it's about quality control.

There's no reason why you couldn't take a SprintPCS tri-mode phone, and activate it as a tri-mode phone on Verizon's service - except that SprintPCS would have to give up the subsidy lock code on the phone. Once you had that, you could program it for Verizon's service.
The reason why Verizon phones wouldn't operate on Sprint PCS network is because Sprint PCS won't allow any phone that they have not purchased from the manufacturer to operate. If they don't have the ESN of that phone entered into their database, no activation.

It's not foul play - it's fair play. No one's saying "You can't make a phone that will work with our network" - they are saying "Make a quality phone that works with our network, and we'll sell it."

This would be like forcing people to provide service for things that can't possibly work - ie, a TDMA phone will NOT talk to a CDMA network - it can't be done. Just like my toaster doesn't talk to my refrigerator.

Re:Bravo! Bravo!

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a life man! it just a phone

Re:Bravo! Bravo!

[crawling_chaos]

A small comment on Sprint PCS "service." I am awaiting my contract termination date with baited breath so I can move to Verizon. Not only is Sprint PCS coverage in Washington, DC abyssmal, but their employees have been uniformly rude and unhelpful on service issues.

As anyone who knows me can attest, any company that I think is worse than Verizontal has to have screwed up badly.

Re:Bravo! Bravo!

[Anal Cocks]

Pass some of that thick, juicy man meat my way, man! STICK IT UP MY ASS!!

Re:Bravo! Bravo!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, I don't see how this is evidence of any antitrust violation. There are other providers, and there are other phones you can use. The fact that you don't want to switch carriers and you don't want to switch phones is entirely your doing. Sprint is not twisting your arm to use their service (apart from the early termination fee, which you get with almost ANY contract).

As for your lamentation that "any choice I make leads me to make a compromise," well, boo-hoo. Life is a series of compromises. If you're not willing to compromise, how can you expect a corp to be?

Re:Bravo! Bravo!

[dcviper]

VoiceStream Wireless, which was named as a defendand in the suit, has never exhibited any of the behaviors describe, either in your post, or in the complaint. A asked a voicestream employee, point blank, can i purchase another phone at any time during my contract? A: "Sure, just make sure it is GSM 1900 compliant, and pop your SIM card into the new phone. you don't even have to bring it in to the store"

Makes me wonder if they even checked to see if voicestream was actually comitting any of the acts described in the suit. Perhaps they were in lawsuit frenzy (Hey, This is America).

-dcviper

Re:Bravo! Bravo!

[Anonymous Coward]

Cellular phone number portablilty comes in October of this year.

Re:Bravo! Bravo!

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to make a general statement, without advertising anything, but being a direct relay of consumer opinions. I work for radio shack, and we sell cell phones, mainly sprint and verizon, both in the same store. If anyone has ever used verizon, they have never been able to be satisfied with anything else. Sprint is rated just above cingular, which is at the bottom of the list when it comes to carriers. It is very hard for me to believe that you are truly satisfied with sprint that used 5 year old cell phone technology (TDMA), over verizon, that has phones that work anywhere in the US (CDMA/AMPS/Analog). When it comes to nokias, the reason why sprint no longer sells them is because they were loosing too much money repearing them, and if you ever have to deal with nokia as a consumer you will understand why its not the greatest. Nokia is THE most anticompetative company out there, microsoft is not as bad. Nokia MAKES you go back to them to purchase any accessories that you need for your phone. Not only that, the newest nokia phones dont have half the features that the new samsungs, sanyos, or keyoceras have. Take a look at the new Samsung A400, and i think your attitude towards nokia will change very quickly.

Re:Bravo! Bravo!

[Anonymous Coward]

When I signed up with Sprint PCS, Nokia phones were an option. Today they aren't, and no matter how many times I've contacted them things don't seem to be changing.

My only choices are to (A) continue to use my 3 year old phone, (B) move on to a new provider, or (C) get a non-Nokia phone.

wait til september. ;-)

Re:Bravo! Bravo!

[Anonymous Coward]

my phone is outdated and no longer has the features I require. It is over large, gets horrible reception in my new Apartment, and the battery hardly lasts a day

it all adds up to a compelling argument for sticking with Nokia :-)

Re:Bravo! Bravo!

[Grax]

Just like my toaster doesn't talk to my refrigerator.

You just aren't keeping up with the times. Appliances designed to the OpenAppliance spec communicate freely using tcpip on your home network.

Your toaster can now be configured to do a coil warmup when you pull the toaster strudel from the freezer. If you have installed the RGoldberg interface you can program your kitchen to prepare an entire breakfast at a pre-programmed time of the morning (or afternoon if necessary).

Sad, lonely moderators masturbating alone

[Anonymous Coward]

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meta-subject

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot is dying! (Score:-1)
by Pr0n K1ng on Sunday April 21, @06:31PM (#3384346)
(User #160688 Info | http://slashdot.org/ | Last Journal: Tuesday March 26, @07:33PM) Blackout this, you fucking dweeb!

Get it in you! [ Reply to This | Parent ] Sig Heil, Michael! (Score:0, Troll)
by Sims Youth on Sunday April 21, @06:32PM (#3384348)
(User #568114 Info) Vorwärts! Vorwärts! Schmettern die hellen Fanfaren.
Vorwärts! Vorwärts! Jugend kennt keine Gefahren.
Slashdot, du wirst leuchtend stehn,
mögen wir auch untergehn.

Vorwärts! Vorwärts! Schmettern die hellen Fanfaren.
Vorwärts! Vorwärts! Jugend kennt keine Gefahren.
Ist das Ziel auch noch so hoch,
Jugend zwingt es, doch!

Unsre Linux es brechen uns voran..
In die Zukunft ziehen wir Mann für Mann.
Wir moderieren für Michael durch Nacht und durch not
Mit der betriebssystem für Freiheit und Brot.

Unsre Linux es brechen uns voran.
Unsre Linux ist die neue Zeit.
Und Linux führt uns in die ewigkeit!
Ja, Linux ist mehr als der Tod!

Jugend! Jugend! Wir sind die Zukunft Arschspielwaren.
Jugend! Jugend! Träger der kommenden Taten.
Ja, durch unsre Fäuste fällt,
wer sich uns entgegenstellt.

Jugend! Jugend! Wir sind die Zukunft Arschspielwaren.
Jugend! Jugend! Träger der kommenden Taten.
Führer, wir gehören dir,
wir kameraden dir!

Unsre Linux es brechen uns voran.
In die Zukunft ziehen wir Mann für Mann.
Wir moderieren für Michael durch Nacht und durch not
Mit der betriebssystem der Jugend für Freiheit und Brot.

Unsre Linux es brechen uns voran.
Unsre Linux ist die neue Zeit.
Und Linux führt uns in die ewigkeit!
Ja, Linux ist mehr als der Tod!
[ Reply to This | Parent ] fp (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 21, @06:33PM (#3384352) what is that w00t thing anywayz? [ Reply to This | Parent ] don't forget! (Score:-1, Offtopic)
by damiam (mathlete@bSTRAWellsouth.net minus berry) on Sunday April 21, @06:33PM (#3384353)
(User #409504 Info | http://dmoore.myip.org/ | Last Journal: Friday January 18, @12:02AM) T(H)GSB [slashdot.org] [slashdot.org]

Last Chance to See! The final opportunity to discuss this before the lights go out [slashdot.org] [slashdot.org]

Questions? There are answers here! [slashdot.org] [slashdot.org]

Saved for posterity, from a discussion about the new subscription system:

... while I don't mean to dismiss the value
of comment posters, the percentage of readers
that read comments is small. Yes comments draw
readers, and keep them coming back. But half
of readers don't care! An accepted story
submission provides a benefit to hundreds
of thousands of Slashdot readers. A Score:3
comment is read by 1/50th of that. So if we
decide that an accepted story submission is
worth 1000 page views, you would need to post
perhaps 50 Score:3 comments to affect the
same number of people :)

A statistic in the hand of the ignorant is more dangerous than a gun in the hand of a child. Malda's dismissal of the importance of comments [slashdot.org] [slashdot.org] reflects on the inability of Slashdot's "editors" to understand the way communities work.

For the record, my feelings on the Slashdot Subscription Embroglio rests firmly in the uninterested. I have almost zero opinion on the final outcome of subscriptions. I love Slashdot, and will probably subscribe at some point to support the site, but the details are dull (to me).

Says Rob Malda, "... while I don't mean to dismiss the value of comment posters, the percentage of readers that read comments is small. Yes comments draw readers, and keep them coming back. But half
of readers don't care!" In that case, Slashdot would be much better served by dumping the flaky and irritating overhead of a DB server and filling the pipe with a longer "Favorites" list--which, essentially, is what Slashdot is once you strip away the comments and comment posters. This is where a meaningless SQL query puts dangerous statistics in the hand of the ignorant. If Malda thinks that he can divine real knowledge from a SELECT query, he is sadly mistaken. While I do not doubt the validity of the numbers, I seriously doubt the validity of his extrapolation of the data. The ebb and flow of a community cannot be read from the tea leaves of an Apache log file.

This easy dismissal of the value of the only providers of interesting and insightful content on Slashdot is offensive. Thus, I propose a small revolt. The (Hopefully) Great Slashdot Blackout.

T(H)GSB will be during the week of April 21 through April 27. Easy to remember, the full moon in April falls on the 27th. During that time, I will not be posting, nor will I click through to read the comments from the home page. I will become as Malda's idea of the typical Slashdot reader. I will provide no new content (neither comments, nor story submissions--although I'm not much of a story submitter).

During that week, I'd like to see if Malda sees Slashdot become a better place, or if it becomes the Hallowed Shrine of Troll. I'd like for the logs to be revisited and new queries run. And, I'd like for the "editors" to really see what the true value of Slashdot is--not the sum of click-throughs and page-views, but the sharing of knowledge and dissemination of information; the passing of experience from the more to the less.

This is where the (Hopefully) comes in. This is only meaningful if enough free content-providers (i.e., comment posters) agree to go along and participate. If there is only me and a handful of others who cease normal activities during that week, it will be pretty meaningless. Barely a dent will be made, and Malda and the other "editors" will never realize the incredible value they receive from comment posters.

To spread the word, I'm changing my sig to link to this journal entry. If you would like to he

Read the rest of this comment...
[ Reply to This | Parent ] eek eek (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 21, @06:33PM (#3384355) Fiz-erst Piz-ost I iz-ope? [ Reply to This | Parent ] trollburger (Score:-1, Troll)
by TrollBurger on Sunday April 21, @06:34PM (#3384358)
(User #575126 Info) i would of got first post but the FBI cracked the 1024 bit encrytion on my box and I was being questioned all day about me using decss to search for (using cat recogniation aligrims (sp?)) those single frame ads in popular movies convincing that "Microsoft is not an monopoly". [ Reply to This | Parent ] Oh yeah (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 21, @06:34PM (#3384360) I know I don't have the first post. [ Reply to This | Parent ] FP FOR SOCIALISM (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 21, @06:34PM (#3384361) FUCK YOU, LOGGED IN TROLLS! [ Reply to This | Parent ] Ayn Rand licked my hairy scrotum! (Score:-1)
by Pr0n K1ng on Sunday April 21, @06:36PM (#3384371)
(User #160688 Info | http://slashdot.org/ | Last Journal: Tuesday March 26, @07:33PM) nt biznizitch [ Reply to This | Parent ] can you say (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 21, @06:34PM (#3384367) FirSt ......................POstEr

Slashdot blackoutT!%%%%%%%%%! [ Reply to This | Parent ] Deja vu. (Score:1)
by BitterOak on Sunday April 21, @06:35PM (#3384368)
(User #537666 Info) This sounds very much like the situation with telephones before deregulation. There was a day when only phones supplied by the phone company could be attached to their networks. Then deregulation forced them to accept other manufacturer's phones.

The question is, what is the current state of regulation in the wireless arena? Do regulations currently exist similar to the old phone regulations? If not, how do the wireless carriers enforce their hardware requirements?

THIS POST FOR UNEMPLOYED PROGRAMMERS EVERYWHERE!

It's easy

[Ed Avis]

Pesky 'standards' getting you down? Consumers switching willy-nilly from one provider to another? Don't like the idea of this new-fangled 'interoperability'? There's an easy answer! Just make your own additional rules and refuse to allow devices that don't meet them. And the best part is, you can do this while still claiming to comply with the standard!

Texas

[Mao Zedong]

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l { / ,ll\
l { `}'- -/
l {`}'\ l,
l Ull| Tll,
l / \ \
l/ /\ o } o} \ Neighborly Transexual
/ / \`~' `T } }
{ { } l/ /
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/ / ~-l,
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\ \l,
`'~

Pasta salad is one of those wonderful dishes that invite endless experimentation and improvisation. It's the perfect accompaniment to a picnic, barbeque, or any meal at all; you can even make it hearty enough to be a meal all by itself. It can be dressed up for special occasions with primo ingredients, or it can be a last-minute "what's in the fridge?" meal. No matter what the occasion, though, you can make your pasta salads more delicious than ever by giving each of your ingredients the extra little bit of attention they need to make them really shine.
Pasta for Every Palate
A pasta salad is only as good as the noodles that hold it all together. Have fun with different pasta shapes-short or long, narrow or wide, solid or hollow, big or small, flat or stuffed... you can put a brand new face on the same salad simply by varying the pasta. Pasta is made from many different types of flour, and colored beautifully with many different vegetables, so be adventurous and try something out of the ordinary-from rainbow radiatore, spinach ravioli, and whole wheat fettuccine, to corn macaroni, buckwheat soba noodles, and rice vermicelli. There's no way to get bored with pasta when the choices are so deliciously endless.

It's even more important with pasta salad than with hot pasta dishes that you avoid overcooking the pasta. Overcooked pasta will fall apart when you try to toss it with dressing. Not only that, but if you allow your salad to "marinate" for several hours to let the flavors mingle, the pasta will soak up the moisture from the dressing and the other ingredients, turning slightly overcooked pasta to absolute moosh. Cook the pasta just until it becomes tender, pour it into a colander in the sink, then run cold water over it to stop the cooking and cool it down quickly. As soon as the pasta feels cool to the touch, shake the colander to drain off as much water as possible. Now dump the pasta into a bowl and toss it with some oil to keep it from sticking together.

A Little of This, a Little of That...
Because pasta itself is so versatile and mild in flavor, just about everything tastes good with it. Use ingredients that will give your pasta salad lots of varied taste and texture: cook vegetables just until tender, then plunge them into ice water to stop the cooking before they get mushy (this is called "refreshing" or "shocking" your vegetables), or just leave the vegetables crisp and raw. Other things to add gusto are toasted nuts, dried fruit, fresh herbs, crumbled cheese, and tidbits of your favorite meat.

Dress for the Occasion
To save a little time, you can always use bottled salad dressing to toss with your pasta salad, but if you're in a "from scratch" kind of mood, the possibilities are positively tantalizing. A mixture of oil and vinegar is arguably the most popular way to dress a pasta salad, but you can also make creamy dressing with mayonnaise, sour cream, or yogurt.

For sautéing, it's fine to use vegetable oil, but for salad dressing, use high-quality, flavorful oils. Extra-virgin olive oil, toasted sesame oil, hazelnut oil, and walnut oil are all power-players in the world of taste, and you can get by with using much less oil while still adding superior flavor if you choose a bold one. To add that all-important zing to the dressing, try cider vinegar, balsamic vinegar, white wine vinegar, red wine vinegar, raspberry vinegar, or even lime or lemon juice. Whatever you use as the basis of your dressing, be sure to round it out with salt and pepper, and perhaps a dash of red pepper flakes, a little bit of crushed garlic, a dab of mustard, or anything else you think will make your pasta salad distinctly divine.

It's in the article, lines 55-58

[zorba1]

Carriers set phones' SIDs and MDNs so that they work with only one provider (AT&T, for example). They add encryption on top of that so that it's hard to reprogram a phone. Carriers are currently regulated only in terms of tariffs on the service (i.e. federal tax), not on the handset-to-service binding. The latter is unregulated, hence this filing with the district court.

Re:It's in the article, lines 55-58

[BitterOak]

They add encryption on top of that so that it's hard to reprogram a phone.

But doesn't the DMCA explicitly allow reverse engineering for interoperability purposes? Is there some law preventing manufacturers from making phones and PDAs which mimic those blessed by the providers?

Just wait...

[RobinH]

Next year, the Ontario government will be posting a list of approved automobiles for travel on the Highway 407 Electronic Toll Route. Only Chevrolet, Buick, and a couple Pontiac vehicles will be compatible with the new concrete technology. ;-)

Things To Do Today

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Purchase 2 cans crisco, 1 package latex gloves, 2 jumbo rolls paper towels, 1 box condoms

2. Try to act natural while checkout person is ringing up items

part of the point

[CmdrTaco (editor)]

The point of requiring all phones used on their networks isn't necessarily an unfair business practices. The wireless carriers may just want to alleviate the threat of abuse over their networks. In this time of attributing fault to various people in the hierarchy of responsibility, handsets could be potentially damaging if they were modified to be scanners. So, to eliminate that possibility, carriers may examine all potential handsets and only approve the ones that could not easily be modified to do such damaging things. One thing I don't understand, though, is how this could bring antitrust accusations against these companies. The only case I can think of is possibly collusion between the carriers, but with the competition between low rates occurring with such viciousness, I don't believe that is even a possibility.

Re:part of the point

[bucephalis]

So, to eliminate that possibility, carriers may examine all potential handsets and only approve
"the ones that could not easily be modified to do such damaging things. One thing I don't understand, though, is how this could bring antitrust accusations against these companies. The only case I can think of is possibly collusion between the carriers, but with the competition between low rates occurring with such viciousness, I don't believe that is even a possibility."

The problem is that they REQUIRE you to buy the phone from them. It is one thing saying "We will only let you connect with phones that meet with our seal of approval" It is quite another to say "Yes, I see you already have a phone that you used with our competitor, that's cute. Now, which one of our fine phones would you like to buy in order to use our service?"
I, for instance, have an older Qualcomm QCP-2700, which is PCS compatable. When I recently signed up with Sprint, they said I couldn't use it. Reason? It is a GTE phone....

Re:part of the point

[Cato]

This is ridiculous - operators are NOT worried about this sort of thing. Have you thought about how hard it would be to modify a modern phone, with its incredibly tight packing of circuitry and large-scale integration, to be a scanner?

There are plenty of operators making money in Europe without needing to lock phones (though some of them still do).

Operators simply want to make it harder for people to switch, even though the subscriber is already tied in by a contract (meaning that the operator's phone subsidy is not a reason for phone locking - the contract ensures they will make enough money to cover the subsidy).

MODERATORS, MOD UP THE TROLLS!

[Anonymous Coward]

IN AD 2002, REVOLUTION WAS BEGINNING!

Go on, you know you want to, you have the power to destroy /. Do it, use your +1 and mod me up, and feel the power. Consume the power. Enjoy the power.

Annoyed that the market isn't giving you what you promised? Jobless? ANNOYED THAT THE ONLY PEOPLE LEFT IN WORK SIT AROUND ALL DAY LINKING TO ARTICLES NOT EVEN FOUND BY THEM? REVOLT! MOD ME UP NOW! AND MOD UP THE TROLLS WITH YOUR REMAINING POINTS!

As opposed to?

[SuiteSisterMary]

As opposed to... what? Putting up with explaining over and over why random feature 'x' of gee-whiz gollywag phone doesn't work on their network?

Re:As opposed to?

[DA-MAN]

My Ericcson phone was sold to me by AT&T over the phone, it doesn't have the time. It has a feature to set the time, but it says carrier doesn't support this feature. Now what this tells me is two things:

1) Phones are capable of detecting what features are available by their provider
2) AT&T needs a time synch feature, just like every other provider. I hate my phone because it relies on the provider to set the time and can't be set manaully. But really, in this day and age AT&T in SF is the only provider in this area that doesn't set the time.

Either way, the post is quite irrelevant.

Re:As opposed to?

[Anonymous Coward]

i work for at&t wireless, and the erricson you are speaking of is shitty, to say the least. how long ago did you get that phone? People call all the time about it.. solution, get a better phone, not a cheap one. You get what you pay for.. by the way, aws does have a time sync feature... works for me?

Re:As opposed to?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing he paid about $20 (or at least that's what my friend paid for a shitty no clock Erickson model from CellularOne). It's funny what people will bitch about.

Re:As opposed to?

[DA-MAN]

Ok, two things. My point was that phones can detect features. Now to answer your questions:

I broke my phone, and AT&T Wireless actually paid for the phone as a replacement. Apparently it was the only phone they had at the time that was flip. I use to own a startac and only like flip phones. Now they have the motorola v60 and I am going to get it soon. I got the phone like a few days before the v60 came out.

All ATTWS phones have to be manually set here in the city. Even the v60. I don't know about anywhere else, but here ya gotta set it.

Malda's Story

[Dick Veiney]

A few years ago, while browsing around the library downtown, I had to take a piss. As I entered the john a big beautiful all-American football hero type, about twenty-five, came out of one of the booths. I stood at the urinal looking at him out of the corner of my eye as he washed his hands. He didn't once look at me. He was "straight" and married -- and in any case I was sure I wouldn't have a chance with him.

As soon as he left I darted into the booth he'd vacated, hoping there might be a lingering smell of shit and even a seat still warm from his sturdy young ass. I found not only the smell but the shit itself. He'd forgotten to flush. And what a treasure he had left behind. Three or four beautiful specimens floated in the bowl. It apparently had been a fairly dry, constipated shit, for all were fat, stiff, and ruggedly textured. The real prize was a great feast of turd -- a nine inch gastrointestinal triumph as thick as a man's wrist.

I knelt before the bowl, inhaling the rich brown fragrance and wondered if I should obey the impulse building up inside me. I'd always been a heavy rimmer and had lapped up more than one little clump of shit, but that had been just an inevitable part of eating ass and not an end in itself. Of course I'd had jerkoff fantasies of devouring great loads of it (what rimmer hasn't), but I had never done it. Now, here I was, confronted with the most beautiful five-pound turd I'd ever feasted my eyes on, a sausage fit to star in any fantasy and one I knew to have been hatched from the asshole of the world's handsomest young stud.

Why not? I plucked it from the bowl, holding it with both hands to keep it from breaking. I lifted it to my nose. It smelled like rich, ripe limburger (horrid, but thrilling), yet had the consistency of cheddar. What is cheese anyway but milk turning to shit without the benefit of a digestive tract?

I gave it a lick and found that it tasted better then it smelled. I've found since then that shit nearly almost does.

I hesitated no longer. I shoved the fucking thing as far into my mouth as I could get it and sucked on it like a big brown cock, beating my meat like a madman. I wanted to completely engulf it and bit off a large chunk, flooding my mouth with the intense, bittersweet flavor. To my delight I found that while the water in the bowl had chilled the outside of the turd, it was still warm inside. As I chewed I discovered that it was filled with hard little bits of something I soon identified as peanuts. He hadn't chewed them carefully and they'd passed through his body virtually unchanged. I ate it greedily, sending lump after peanutty lump sliding scratchily down my throat. My only regret was the donor of this feast wasn't there to wash it down with his piss.

I soon reached a terrific climax. I caught my cum in the cupped palm of my hand and drank it down. Believe me, there is no more delightful combination of flavors than the hot sweetness of cum with the rich bitterness of shit.

Afterwards I was sorry that I hadn't made it last longer. But then I realized that I still had a lot of fun in store for me. There was still a clutch of virile turds left in the bowl. I tenderly fished them out, rolled them into my handkerchief, and stashed them in my briefcase. In the week to come I found all kinds of ways to eat the shit without bolting it right down. Once eaten it's gone forever unless you want to filch it third hand out of your own asshole. Not an unreasonable recourse in moments of desperation or simple boredom.

I stored the turds in the refrigerator when I was not using them but within a week they were all gone. The last one I held in my mouth without chewing, letting it slowly dissolve. I had liquid shit trickling down my throat for nearly four hours. I must have had six orgasms in the process.

I often think of that lovely young guy dropping solid gold out of his sweet, pink asshole every day, never knowing what joy it could, and at least once did, bring to a grateful shiteater

Re:Malda's Story

[Anonymous Coward]

I feel sorry for the moderator who had to read this...wait, I read it too =(.

Also: They don't let you keep your phone number

[loggia]

In a similar vein, carriers have stalled and delayed the government's wish that consumers be allowed to keep and transfer their cell phone numbers between carriers.

Re:Also: They don't let you keep your phone number

[Anonymous Coward]

That has to be a long, long way off. You can't even keep landline numbers. When I last moved from downtown Manhattan to midtown Manhattan both 212 dialing code with the same local loop carrier, Verizon told me that it was a different switch so I had to change numbers. Of course they would offer a forwarding service for hefty fee. Great!

AT&S GSM

[Multispin]

Actually, a friend of mine bought an unlocked t68 on eBay. AT&T activated it with few problems. This was even before AT&T was selling the t68. His biggest problems were that the WAP site sometimes had problems rendering on the t68. Works fine now, as does the t68 that I got from AT&T when I switched to their GSM service.
On a slightly different note, they told me that after my 1 year contract they would unlock my phone.

Re:AT&S GSM

[Anonymous Coward]

VoiceStream hooked me up in WA state with a Motorola Timeport TriBand (a phone that never made it on the U.S. market). Then I used the same phone when I signed up with PacBell Wireless (now Cingular). Finally, VoiceStream hooked me back up in Illinois. Excellent reception.

This is with the same phone. Seems to only be AT&T which has this "policy".

Re:AT&S GSM

[evel aka matt]

How did you get a t68 from AT&T? I'd very much like to get one, but I can't find it one their website. Is it brick and mortar only, perhaps? And if you don't mind my asking, how much did you pay?

---
mf

Re:AT&S GSM

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy it online at AT&T's web site....

http://www.attws.com/mmode/devices/ericsson.jhtm l

Re:AT&S GSM

[Pralix]

Actually...

I had a few problems with AT&T activating a phone they didn't sell.

I had been waiting for them to release the Ericsson T39, but the launch dates kept being pushed back. I called them and they said they were going to be getting the T68, no date though. I called their GSM support center and got conflicting opinions on them activating a phone they didn't sell. They told me they could sell me a SIM and I would just put it in my phone. On that note, I went ahead and bought a phone on eBay because I was tired of waiting for them. When I picked up the phone from the person I bought it from, I also stopped at the nearest AT&T Wireless store to buy a SIM. They sold me a SIM ($25) and told me to call a certain number to activate it. I call said number and the CSR basically went ballistic about the store selling a SIM without a phone. He then refused to activate the SIM. No amount of convincing would work. He said they would only activate a SIM only if it was sold with a phone from them. At that point I thought I might be SOL in getting my phone working on their network. Well, I called back and spoke to a supervisor and asked the same questions again. He told me the same things that the previous CSR had said. I then asked him what would stop me from getting one of their phones and using that SIM. He said nothing would, and couldn't tell me not to do it. I had been with AT&T since 1994 so I knew I was going to get a good deal on the Customer Upgrade Program. I went to one of the AT&T stores in downtown Seattle and bought a Motorola Timeport that they were selling for $199, my price was $9.99. After the hour long wait for them to "move" my TDMA account to GSM, I pulled the SIM out of the Motorola and stuck it in my T68 (in the presence of the clerks at the store) and the phone worked fine.

I should not have had to go through all of this to get my phone to work. Had they activated the SIM that I bought, they would not have had to spend money to subsidize the Motorola I had to buy to get them to activate a SIM. I did pay more than what AT&T is currently selling the T68 for, but I did get the portability of taking it to whatever carrier will activate a SIM.

I have heard rumors about AT&T planning to do naughty things to people who are using phones that weren't purchased from them. One is not allowing any phone with an IMEI(sp) number that is not one they sold to access their network. I do not think this can possibly be legal. I think there is a requirement for all carriers to allow access to their networks for 911 service. They can't block a phone without being in violation of that.

The problem I had with the WAP stuff is that their WAP gateway was not yet configured for the T68. Shortly after they started to sell that model, the gateway was updated.

Re:AT&S GSM

[Registered Coward v2]

I have heard rumors about AT&T planning to do naughty things to people who are using phones that weren't purchased from them. One is not allowing any phone with an IMEI(sp) number that is not one they sold to access their network. I do not think this can possibly be legal. I think there is a requirement for all carriers to allow access to their networks for 911 service. They can't block a phone without being in violation of that.

Sure they can - they can let you come up on the network, but refuse to complete any calls but a 911 call.

Re:AT&S GSM

[Multispin]

Yes, but it worked.

Re:AT&S GSM

[phoneboy]

The important thing to note here is that one of their phones are needed to activate the SIM. Once that's done, you can use any phone (I tried a couple of my GSM phones). They told me "oh, just buy the phone, activate, and return the phone." Sounds like what you ended up doing, too (except you kept the phone).

Of course, I ended up cancelling the service and returning the phone the next day since their GSM coverage was crap where I needed it to work. Maybe in a year it might be better.

-- PhoneBoy

Re:AT&S GSM

[Pralix]

The "extra" Motorola handset will be useful when I send the T68 back to Ericsson for the big firmware update.

Who likes to fuck a cheesewedge?

[Anonymous Coward]

Boy, I sure do!

What do you think of it? Post comments below!

[Anonymous Coward]

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Non portable numbers , handset volume

[j_dot_bomb]

Non portable numbers are the biggest issue with switching carriers. I wonder whether most of the handset manufacturers like the way things are. It must increase handset volume.

Re:Non portable numbers , handset volume

[Anonymous Coward]

The FCC is implementing rules later this year that allow portability between carriers.

Re:Non portable numbers , handset volume

[dtr20]

The manufacturers like handset (sales) volume. It is the carriers who don't like subsidising all those new handsets. 'Churn' is a big issue among carriers right now.

Parent is underrated

[MiTEG]

I'm not sure why this was modded down as a troll, as he seems to have some good points.

Anyway, it is in the carrier's best interest to control the equipment used to access their network. In the newspaper today, there was an interesting article on the HDTV standard, which while a somewhat different scenerio is still relevant. The studios want all newer TV's manufactured to contain DRM type stuff, which would make the previously sold HDTV's obsolete. Now whether or not they can do this over the airwaves is the debate. Over cable is one thing, but over airwaves they've paid the FCC for the rights to, can they control what type of equipment has access to it. I see this as very much the same argument, and believe that if this antitrust case goes through, the TV network companies will in the future see very much the same case.

I can't understand...

[Linuxthess]

Why is it that every where else in the world you can roam from continent to continent, and still have service? Why is it you can operate a GSM in either the 900MHz or 1800MHz modes, elsewhere in the world, but in the great ol' U.S. nobody thought to make a compatible GSM system, rather opting to go along with 1900MHz only.

Sheesh, you can use your same phone In Hong Kong, catch a flight to South Africa, then hit London and Amsterdam, stopover in Canada, but when you come to the states- NO SERVICE FOUND!!!

Damn us stupid americans! If the rest of the world adopts 900 or 1800MHz, we decide we have to be different and go along with a 1900MHz system either SOLELY to sell more expensive Trimode handsets, or to make people fork over more cash to buy a second phone.

---------------

Re:I can't understand...

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop being so cheap!

Tri-band phones are widely available and don't cost any more than the now obsolete duel-band phones (as you falsely claim). If you'd known that you'd wanted to roam in the US you shouldn't have been so clueless when you bought your first phone and bought a tri-band phone instead.

Re:I can't understand...

[Anonymous Coward]

Tri-band phones don't cost anymore.

So you were clueless when you bought your phone, and didn't do enough research into which countries used which frequencies.

Thanks for telling us all how stupid you were.

Re:I can't understand...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called the FCC - thats why!

Re:I can't understand...

[Anonymous Coward]

$score--; // flame bait

Re:I can't understand...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Hong Kong and Israel both support U.S. domestic AT&T phones as well as Euro-GSM sets. Also, Canada's wireless system uses the exact same bands and standards as the U.S.'s.

See this (look at Israel and HK).

Since the U.S. and European GSM "low-band" (800/900) and "high-band" (1800/1900) standards don't coexist, I suspect they use AMPS/TDMA on the low band and then GSM on the high band, or vice-versa.

Re:I can't understand...

[W8TVI]

Don't forget that the "900Mhz" band was in use long before cellphones came on the market. From 902Mhz to 928Mhz is a amatuer radio band. above that is used by radio stations for linking there studios with the towers. There is more but its not that it matters to a troll like you. Noel

Voicestream allows any GSM phone

[Anonymous Coward]

I just bought an unlocked Ericsson T68 with a voicestream plan. Voicestream don't yet supply this phone (maybe in June), however they still paid my supplier a $150 rebate for selling the voicestream plan, which they passed onto me.

Voicestream tech support even know about the phone and help with the GPRS/istream configuration.

Just for perspective.

[mindstrm]

In Europe, with the GSM system there, you usually ahve two options.

1) An open GSM phone. You can use this anywhere, on any network. Either roaming, or with a sim card from that network.

2) A branded phone, where it is locked to a certain carrier. So you can't just take any sim card and use it, you have to use that network.

With #2, they usually sell the phone cheaper, because you are stuck with their network. Which makes sense.

But.. a carrier will not refuse service or differentiate at all as to what phone you use.

Re:Just for perspective.

[Baki]

Even the 'branded' phones are normal GSM phones, just locked with some code.

And it is very uncommon nowadays to lock them; it was common some years ago but consumer organisations protested. Now you get the phone cheaper when you sign up for a contract (e.g. for one year), but the phone itself is not locked.

Those that come with a lock will be unlocked after a period, or if you pay the operator that subsidized your phone.

Re:Just for perspective.

[belroth]

But you can get a locked cellphone unlocked, for a small price. I think this is legal (can't see why not) but it does make a larger market for stolen handsets which is a major problem here in the U.K.

Is it still the case that in the U.S. you have to pay to receive calls on a cell phone? I never understood how the carriers got away with that. I know we complain (rightly) about the call charges here, but at least we don't pay to be called.

Another interesting question is why (apparently) sending text messages is so popular in the U.K. but not the U.S., I don't text much but the predictive texting on some 'phones is very impressive, it's so good it's almost worth sending messages just to use it.

Re:Just for perspective.

[BadlandZ]

Well at least people in the EU (and UK, who are EU but some say not... anyway) know the diffrence beetween a phone that will allow you to put you own SIM in and not...

Friggin 99.95% of American just "accept" the fact that the phone they buy will only work with 1 company, and don't even know places exist (like USTronics) that see unlocked phones, that you can buy, stick a Voice Stream SIM into, and when you travel to EU or Japan, or anywhere, can just get a "local SIM" and use the same phone. As an American, it must be said anyway, AMERICANS ARE IDIOTS!!! (because no one educates themself as a consumer).

TriBand GSM (900/1800/1900) phones that are FINALLY hitting the US shores in SOME number are going to be the ONLY hope we have (in the US).. Because when Americans see the LOCAL ADVANTAGE (always on data capacity and text messages) they may start to see the international roaming capacity, and international compatibility.

It's down to a simple fact that the US has done exactly the oppisite of the rest of the world, they have SEPERATE systems for each cell carrier. Where in EU and Japan, ane the rest of the world the realized the fact that one protocal was enough and compete on service (and companies just buy air time on the tower as used, covering the whole landscape) and compete for customers.

You can be in the Black Forest in Germany and get Cell service.... Because, it's uniform service... You may be Roaming, sure, but there are NO dead spots. WHEREAS, you can be in New York City in the USA, and drop calls, because YOUR company doesn't have a Cell tower there, because every company has thier own system.... For a country that covers SOOO SOOO much more land per population, isn't this not only a worse idea, but an idiotic idea?

So, I agree, GSM is the future, and it's about time Americans get off their asses, learn why the service they pay for sucks, and pay a little more for something that is COMPLETELY worth while. GSM should be an American standard.... It works in Europe, and now the Americans are in the Technology Dark Ages... (at least as far as cell phone service)

Re:Just for perspective.

[Skater]

What companies in the US offer GSM service phones?

Re:Just for perspective.

[Combuchan]

I'll ignore your blatant trolls about Americans not educating themselves about products, but I will say this: Voicestream sucks. Their service is horrendous, their customer support sucks, and just because they're a GSM provider doesn't make them absolutely superior to everything else. There are many more barometers to cell service quality other than the multiplexing protocol they use. A vast majority of americans don't give a rat's ass about that.

For one thing, CDMA offers a far, far higher capacity than GSM. While I'll agree that GSM has better voice quality, CDMA providers are far cheaper. In my part of the USA, you can get unlimited calling with Cricket for US$32.95/mo with no credit checks or contracts. Cricket uses CDMA, and this sort of value would be impossible with GSM.

Moreover, a vast majority of americans live within metropolitan areas, where there is digital service (as well as long interstate highways), which is all fine and good. I'd rather pay for service that'll work where I am, not wherever Joe BFE decides to live. Besides, there's analog coverage over about 99% of the mainland US.

... because YOUR company doesn't have a Cell tower there, because every company has thier own
system....

Erm. You need to learn about interconnection agreements. Qwest (a western United States provider) has an interconnection agreement with Alltel, a national provider. Qwest will hop on Alltel's network where Qwest towers don't exist. These agreements are fairly common in the United States. Also, every company does not have their own system. The only single-carrier system I can think of is Nextel, a specialised business-targetted provider. AT&T, Cingular, Alaska Wireless use TDMA. Alltel, Qwest, Verizon, Airtouch, Cricket, Sprint, and probably a few more all use CDMA. Voicestream, Pac-Bell, and certain chunks of Cingular also use GSM.

Multiple systems are actually better for the customer. Nextel phones can be used like walkie-talkies, Cricket takes advantage of CDMA's cell-hopping and capacity technologies to offer a fabulous service.

And lastly, New York City? Bah. Your trolls phase me not.

Re:Just for perspective.

[BadlandZ]

Voicestream sucks

They ALL suck. I work for a small company, very tight, but small. There are 8 people in the US, spread out pretty even. We all travel and visit each other. We all picked our own service. Combined, we have tried, SprintPCS, Cingular, AT&T, Verizon, VoiceStream, just about everyone. Of the 8, 5 of us switch yearly looking for something better. Guess what? NOTHING IS BETTER. They all suck, on diffrent but equal levels.

And lastly, New York City? Bah. Your trolls phase me not. No Troll, I drop 3 calls a week in NYC right now with SprintPCS (what I count as MY drops). Total, I drop about 8 a week calling other guys in my company (one AT&T and one Verison) in NYC. NYC to NYC calls, droped.. CONSTANTLY. Not a troll. Given that no matter wich of us three call who, they are always droped calls, I would have to say, even NYC doesn't have cell service. You? (Minus October of 2001, at which point NO ONE DROPED A CALL FOR A MONTH!!! They trucked in towers and put them everywhere for a month after 9-11, but it's dropping back down to shit service again).

Yes, you named a ton of companies that have agreements.. and SHARE towers. But, it's not the same.. at all, and I can prove it beyond a doubt, if you care to learn a little.... See Below:

Look at a local Cell tower. How many antennas do you see? 2 types? 3 types? 4 types? Of what, the 5-6 avaliable services? Consider Europe, where there is only 2 general types (Both GSM, if you can call that 2 types). And they are everywhere in EU, yet there are countless places you can find no service in the US.

So, shareing service is there in the US, but that doesn't conclusively prove that 25 cell companies using 6 shared services would be better coverage than 25 services sharing 1 universal service type.

Face it, if you ever used a cell phone in the EU and the US, you KNOW the service is better than the US. If you ever bought a Coke or paid for a parking meter with your cell phone, you are LAUGHING at US cell phone service with the rest of the world.

Re:Just for perspective.

[JimBobJoe]

Because when Americans see the LOCAL ADVANTAGE (always on data capacity and text messages) they may start to see the international roaming capacity, and international compatibility.

Well first, Americans are far less likely to travel internationally than Europeans are. I think that international roaming will always be a low priority for them. And anyway, since our system charges for outbound or inbound use (whereas Europeans on the cell only pay for outbound) roaming can get damn expensive. Furthermore, flat rate land line phone service is so much cheaper than land line in Europe--we only use our cells when we are not near a land line phone or maybe when we wanna use long distance and have lots of long distance minutes. That removes roaming incentive (assuming you'll be near a usable land line phone.)

TriBand GSM (900/1800/1900) phones that are FINALLY hitting the US shores in SOME number are going to be the ONLY hope we have (in the US)

That's a temporary thing...since 3G is slowly coming this way. I believe however that Europe is standardizing on CDMA 3G, the same one we'll be using...so that should work out ok. The future does not rest with 2G of anything, be it CDMA or GSM.

It's down to a simple fact that the US has done exactly the oppisite of the rest of the world, they have SEPERATE systems for each cell carrier.

Part of this is because European governments segmented land areas and awarded the areas to cell phone companies based on highest bidder--it was used as a (very expensive) taxation scheme. One which Europeans are paying out the ass for in cell phone rates. (This was done in the US for analog systems, but it was far cheaper.) With one company controlling one area, there was no choice but for everyone to standardize on one system so that people could roam freely. Here, a company could put cell phone towers which ran on any system wherever they want as long as it met FCC regulations and local tower erection ordinances.

I like having multiple protocols...there are advantages and disadvantages to them. GSM works outstandingly well for Europe--for instance, it has SMS. Here you can have SMS too...but it's used far less because of that billing issue above (and to a certain extent that most people didn't have the same protocol to actually use SMS. SMS was an act of serendipity anyway...it was a part of GSM's configuration protocol, not a purposeful cell phone feature.) I believe that CDMA is the superior protocol (although I think that TDMA is even better, and if I were to do it all over again, I would take a TDMA phone.)

The point of all this is...it's just different. I think in the long run, it'll be hard to say one system is better or worse...except that, generally speaking, telecommunication is cheaper in the US...and perhaps that's the most important metric.

(haha...metric...US...see...I made a joke...ohh nevermind...to the devil with you all)

Re:Just for perspective.

[Combuchan]

I don't know about Sprint, but when I called up Voicestream and bitched about the poor signal strength in my area, they eventually peered with a junior high a mile away from me and replaced one of their light towers with a cell/light tower combo. Call them up and they might actually listen to you. Having dead spots in their coverage area is bad for business.

Let's debunk this six-type argument, shall we...
Six types, Analog, GSM1900, TDMA800, TDMA1900, CDMA800, and CDMA1900. Try and actually find a phone that was made in the last three or four years that actually supports just one type. (excluding some Nokia models made for prepay services like Tracfone). My dad has a piece of crap Audiovox 800 MHz/analog phone from like five years ago that works everywhere. Try and find a phone that you would actually want to use that doesn't support CDMA or TDMA at both frequencies as well as analog fallback. They're hard to find.

I occasionally got dropped calls with AT&T and VoiceStream, but at least AT&T offered a 50c/drop credit on my bill. I also don't have the environmental factors you do... tall buildings of NYC I'm sure have some detrimental effect on cell service, whereas where I am, even a three story building is a rare sight to behold.

My point is, it's not exactly fair to judge a whole service network based on what you get in one area. If you were in some part of europe where 40-story buildings were all over (do they even have those in europe), would Orange or OpTel or Vodafone or Deutsche Telekom never drop your call? I doubt it. Would said companies be doing a far superior job than Sprint if they had to provide service in NYC? Probably not.

better coverage than 25 services sharing 1 universal service type.

Well ... I'm not having the coverage issues of which you speak, and I'm still not convinced that just one is best.

Re:Just for perspective.

[BadlandZ]

Try and actually find a phone that was made in the last three or four years that actually supports just one type.

Dual band is common, but not universal now, true. But Dual is 2, and that's 2 out of 6, and still, that's only a 1 out of 3 (2 of 6) shot to be the right protocol for your area.

would Orange or OpTel or Vodafone or Deutsche Telekom never drop your call? I doubt it. Would said companies be doing a far superior job than Sprint if they had to provide service in NYC? Probably not.

Your 100% right, ABSOLUTELY NOT. But you have so qualified your question to make the reality of service unclear.

No ONE phone company from europe would do as well as ONE phone company in the US. But your just totally glossing over the key differance.

Orange or OpTel or Vodafone or Deutsche Telekom don't all run seperate systems, with seperate antennas, and seperate towers like AT&T, VoiceStream, Verison, SprintPCS, etc... do!

So, at the end of the day, Orange or OpTel or Vodafone or Deutsche Telekom are all essentiall ONE system, with a combine effort from all companies, to maximize clear coverage.

Whereas, AT&T, VoiceStream, Verison, SprintPCS, Qwest and the like are all seperate companies, with thier own systems, and thier own towers, and very petty agreements to share 1 or 2 of the 6 protocol among 2 or 3 of the companies, and the "infighting" and "fragmemtation" causes the problems.

Fragmenting a network will never lead to maximum coverage of all... it's that simple.

Re:Just for perspective.

[letxa2000]

Is it still the case that in the U.S. you have to pay to receive calls on a cell phone? I never understood how the carriers got away with that. I know we complain (rightly) about the call charges here, but at least we don't pay to be called.

Yes, we still pay to receive calls.

I've worked under both systems. Having the caller have to pay to call a cell phone (as apparently the case in the UK and where I currently live, Mexico) and the way its done in the U.S. where the owner of the cell phone pays for received calls.

I prefer the latter. Especially when you get 2000 or 3000 minutes per month--there's no way I call more than 100 or 200 per month so I'd just assume that the caller call me free and get that rolled into the 3000 minutes I wouldn't otherwise use.

Re:Just for perspective.

[krir]

One workaround for the problem of carriers locking their phones is buying a European phone.

In my experience, the cell phone salesperson will not know that you can put a different SIM card in their phone, or that you can use their SIM card in a different phone. Don't listen to them...

I brought a GSM tri-band phone from Europe, and I've never had any trouble using it on neither Cingular nor Voicestream's GSM networks.

The phone Voicestream more or less forced me to buy, however, would only work on Voicestream's network. After one hell of a struggle I got them to unlock it (the contract specified I had to be a customer for three months, so now it works on any GSM network.

Now that my phones (two Nokias and one Motorola) are unlocked, I now freely interchange my three SIM cards.

Re:Just for perspective.

[thanq]

And they are everywhere in EU, yet there are countless places you can find no service in the US.

Look at the map and compare size of Europe and the population density to size of US and population density of US.

It's not a good idea to put towers that cover empty lands of arizona, wyoming, montana, or even more populated states. That's the main reason why you get a better reception in more places in Europe than US.

Re:Just for perspective.

[PW2]

>>> AMERICANS ARE IDIOTS!!!

Looks like someone here wanted to get some karma the cheap way.

Kind of like saying all 8 year olds are idiots for not knowing C++

Looks like it worked for you though

Re:Just for perspective.

[Anonymous Coward]

Another thought to keep in mind is that the US wireless carriers are really selling service not phones. They generally sell the phone, the locked version, at or below their wholesale cost to keep the customers using their service. Americans have gotten use to getting their phones of $100 - $150 or even less. The much noted Ericsson T68 is listed by AT&T Wirelss at $200 with a new 1 year service contract. The best price I've seen for the unlocked version was in the $500 range. US consumers have been trained to expect prices much lower than this and would revolt if asked to pay normal retail prices.

Re:Just for perspective.

[Paul Jakma]

Let's debunk this six-type argument, shall we...
Six types, Analog, GSM1900, TDMA800, TDMA1900, CDMA800, and CDMA1900. Try and actually find a phone that was made in the last three or four years that actually supports just one type.

you know... i think you've just gone and completely missed the other's guys point.

the point is not about /phone/ support, the point is about /coverage/. In Europe it's one system, so even if your own carrier doesnt provide coverage chances are there are at least 2 other carriers who do - and it will be compatible with your phone cause all the carriers use GSM.

in EU:

- i can send text messages to anyone, irrespective of what carrier they are on or what phone they use and they will receive it fine.

- i can use whatever sim i want with whatever phone i want. (well the pre-paid phones /seem/ to have different software. still pre-paid SIM from a french carrier works in an irish pre-paid phone)

(anybody know what the difference is between phones that take pre-paid SIMs and normal GSM phones? it seems that "bill" phones will take pre-paid SIMs, but that pre-paid phones wont take "Bill" SIMs. ??)

- my dad and sister often swap phones (they both use pre-paid). we have about 4 phones of varying age lying around the house, ericson T10, Nokia 5110, an absolutely crap "Trium", newer Ericson something or another. Battery low and you're in a hurry? Phone broken? just grab another one.. no fuss - they're all GSM - insert SIM and move on.

Another example of this, something that's happened to me a few times, you're in a pub or nightclub and someone will ask you if they can quickly use your phone cause their battery is dead, and they'll stick their own SIM in your phone and make the call on their own credit. :)

- my dad travels a lot, so he has 4 pre-paid SIM cards. In france? use the french carrier SIM, Netherlands? Use the dutch carrier SIM, etc..

- As the previous poster mentioned, in some countries providers are starting to offer "pay-by-phone" services, eg, finland is one. Got no cash? want to buy something? SMS the money over. :)

but most importantly, as the other poster alluded to:

- Wherever i go in Europe, i /will/ have coverage.

dont need to worry about tri-band phones or which carrier offers what network where, i just /will/ have coverage. hate to state the obvious, but what use is a mobile phone if you cant use it?

The US, for once, is /way/ behind.. i'd hate to have to deal with 5+ different types of networks. hell...

Re:Just for perspective.

[zazzel]

"would Orange or OpTel or Vodafone or Deutsche Telekom never drop your call? I doubt it."

Just for perspective, again.
I was a customer of D2 Mannesmann (nowadays: Vodafone) from 97 'til 99. Not a single dropped call, nor was there any other problem.

After that, I became a Viag Interkom customer (nowadays: O2). Viag was the last company to get a license in Germany. They had *severe* problems during the first months I was a customer (their tech support actually had a checklist for possible problems: "Do you have dropped calls? Are syllables dropped? shh-sounds dropped?). They quickly resolved their problems. Early in 2000, the problems were gone. After that, I remember only ONE major problem (whole network unreachable for a day... but roaming to Deutsche Telekom (D1) was possible). I don't remember ANY dropped calls after this.

BTW: how come that my phone has about 250h standby in ANY German network, but only about 100h in New York City?
I have never had less reliable phone service than here in the US.
I even had dropped calls on my Verizon landline phone. At least DSL is working fine.

Re:Just for perspective.

[LinuxOnHal]

I use my Motorola 7868W phone all over the place. It happens to be a Tri-Band phone, with AMPS (Analog) CDMA800 and CDMA1900. My home carrier is ALLTEL Communications which seems to do a fairly good job. I live in the flat plains of northern kansas, so dropped calls are rare. The only problems are busy towers, as trunks get tied up, it gets hard to get incoming calls on occasion.

My phone roams anywhere I need to go. If I want to go down I-35 into Oklahoma, I hop on Sprint's PCS system, which alltel has a roaming agreement with.

There is some interoperability, but I do agree that I should be able to take my phone and put it on whatever carrier I like. The fact that I roam with Sprint, should mean that I can activate my phone with sprint, but sadly, that is not the case.

Re:Just for perspective.

[psergiu]

> I occasionally got dropped calls with AT&T and VoiceStream

As an european I kindly ask you sir to explain to me what is this "Dropped call" thingy you americans say you have and we don'd ?

^_^

Re:Just for perspective.

[Cato]

Quite a few Europeans are dropping their land lines, even though they are cheaper, just for the convenience of having a single phone for everything. Europeans pay for inbound roaming calls (when in a different country), it's just for the common case that you are not roaming that you don't pay for inbound.

The US and Europe are *not* adopting the same 3G standards (why change the habit of the last few decades??): the US will use CDMA2000 (mainly), and Europe will use W-CDMA (aka IMT-2000). However, I think some US operators such as AT&T will use W-CDMA so they get global roaming revenues from visitors to the US.

TDMA is quite obsolete - all the TDMA operators are converting to GSM/GPRS, see www.3gamericas.org for what used to be the TDMA trade body in the US, which now promotes GSM.

Cost isn't the only metric - being able to depend on mobile phone coverage is another key one. Ease of roaming between GSM operators is a key part of getting good coverage.

Re:Just for perspective.

[Anonymous Coward]

For UK we have an interesting Setup.
We have 4 carriers (Orange, Vodafone, TMobile & mmO2)
Orange and mmO2 block their phones, Vodafone and TMobile don't.
You can buy an unblocked handset and use the phone on any network, as long as your sim allows it.
There is a large legal battle at the moment to get Orange and mmO2 to stop locking their phones.

So why not just buy and unblocked phone, because they are very expensive (£300 - $500). If you but a phone from a network they heavily subsidize the phone (Free to £100). Take the cost of the cheapest monthly subscription and times that by 12, add the phone cost and it will work out about £20 cheaper to buy an unblocked phone.

On Roaming, it's slightly more interesting.
Its not down to the phone, its down to the sim card. Each carrier has an agreement with another carrier in (lets say) France, I roam to France and if I'm on Orange it will auto roam me to France Telecomm (Orange). There is nothing stopping me from not roaming to Vodafone France (apart from the price). If you go to a country where a carrier doesn't have a roaming agreement your phone will auto roam to the strongest signal or ask you to choose a network. This is why you always get amazing reception in airports as well as see lots of carrier adverts.

Re:Just for perspective.

[BadlandZ]

BTW: how come that my phone has about 250h standby in ANY German network, but only about 100h in New York City?

Because the phone is constantly looking for a decent signal ;-) Not it's prefered network type, rescan them.... Signal strength too low, rescan them.... over and over, till it sucks up all of the battery.

Re:Just for perspective.

[BadlandZ]

Look at the map and compare size of Europe and the population density to size of US and population density of US.

That's exactly my point.

Since it's going to be harder to cover all that area, why not cover a lot of it with 1 system insted of tring to cover it with 7 diffrent systems?

Re:Just for perspective.

[bluGill]

I live in the US, and I don't have a land line[1]. I see no reason for it, the cost of a land line unlimied service is the same as a cell phone for twice the minutes I've EVER used, and the cell phone includes long distance.

[1] This isn't strictly true, to get DSL I have to pay for metered land line service, but I never use it, and I've complained about paying this fee for a service that I don't use.

Re:Just for perspective.

[sbryant]

- Wherever i go in Europe, i /will/ have coverage.

dont need to worry about tri-band phones or which carrier offers what network where, i just /will/ have coverage. hate to state the obvious, but what use is a mobile phone if you cant use it?

I have a German phone (GSM 900/1800); I've used it up in the UK and Scandinavia, down in Italy and Croatia, and all the countries in between.

It's not just Europe. My phone worked just fine in the Middle East and in Africa too! Consider this - in the middle of some African desert, I get max signal strength! (SA and Namibia)

I think the only continents where I can't reliably use my phone are America and Antarctica! :-)

-- Steve

Re:Just for perspective.

[Yet Another Smith]

Uhh, the GSM/CDMA argument is wholly irrelevant here. CDMA could be just as transparent as GSM, if the cell companies implemented the technology with transparency in mind. Hell, I could roam digitally, and have better coverage, but I turned digital roaming off because it costs more. There's no technical barrier to roaming (in fact, if I'm not mistaken, all carriers are required to allow competitor's customers use thier networks free of charge for 911 calls.)

This debate over GSM/CDMA has gotten ridiculous, not because America's CDMA implimentation is better than Europes implimentation of GSM. Quite the contrary, its pretty clear that Europe does more with GSM than the US does with CDMA. But CDMA isn't the problem, and adopting GSM isn't the only way to make American cell service better. People don't understand that GSM isn't inherently better than CDMA, its just that the EU companies use it better.

Indeed, CDMA is the better technology (I work for an English wireless engineering company and although I am not an engineer, I'm quoting RF engineers I drink beer with) and has a lot of advantages over GSM. However, like VHS/Betamax, GSM is used more, and has more features, but CDMA could have all those and more.

Now, having a more uniform CDMA method in the US would be vastly superior to the current willy-nilly mish-mash we have, but insisting that we go to the EU system may not be the best idea.

Also, part of the reason a lot of the text/messaging apps haven't caught on in the US is that Americans aren't as receptive to text on cellphone. I, at least, would rather just call somebody and leave a voicemail than spend all that time fscking around with trying to type text on a numeric keypad. Who has time for that?

The US & Canada already have a significant investment in CDMA. Having the different carriers allow interoperability over thier CDMA networks would only require a software change on existing phones and towers/switches. There's no need to throw away 30 million handsets (or however many) and 10,000 ($million+ dollar a pop) cell sites just so that I can use my current phone the once every two years I find myself in Europe or Japan. I'd much rather have my current phone work better, than throw it away and spend another $200 on a phone, plus have to pay twice as much for service to cover the billion-dollar transition to all new equipment.

Spending billion-dollar sums for million-dollar fixes is far more idiotic than the current US system.

Sure, Europe and Japan use GSM, but arguing that that means we have to switch to GSM is saying that Linux and Mac users have to switch to Windows.

Re:Just for perspective.

[jpmorgan]

I will agree, cell phone networks in North America suck compared to networks in Europe. But the uniform coverage trick doesn't actually apply to the UK.

There are several primary network operators in the UK (BT Wireless, now mm02, Orange, Vodaphone and One2One ... and some others I think) who run their own seperate networks of towers, and then smaller providers which rent access of these networks (Virgin used to use One2One's network, I think).

But they are quite distinct networks, and they don't share towers. Even though, in theory, an mmO2 phone could use an Orange tower for full connectivity, it won't since there's no agreement between the companies to provide this service. I know lots of places where one provider's (for example, Orange) subscribers will have great reception and another's (for example, One2One), will have crappy reception.

Wireless Number Portability

[mosburger]

I work for a wireless billing software company. About Item (B)... the FCC is requiring cellular companies to make their numbers "portable" in the near future (more on that later). In other words, you will be able to keep your current wireless phone number, bringing it to another competing wireless provider, provided that it's in the same market.

The problem is, every time the FCC has set a deadline for this to happen, all the big wireless companies whine a lot, petition the FCC because implementing the switch/billing software/etc upgrades would be "too difficult" (i.e. costly), and the deadline gets postponed. As it stands now, it was supposed to already have happened over two years ago, and the latest deadline in late November is probably going to be pushed out another six months (if it hasn't been already). The net result is that it really sucks to be the consumer, 'cuz folks like you have to face decisions like the one you're faced with now.

Re:Wireless Number Portability

[56ker]

I think the gist of it is this:

If businesses see their profits threatened by something the government is going to do they will try and get it delayed as long as possible. After all - their first duty is to their shareholders. As the telecomms sector has been one of the ones suffering the most - I'm not surprised that the FCC would delay a decision that in the long run - wouldn't let them hang on to customers for such a long time & cost them more in advertising having to advertise for new ones.

Re:Wireless Number Portability

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for a cell phone manufacturer. If the FCC really does push the industry to interoperate more, then why are carriers asking us to implement a feature which will require GSM phones to only use their SIM cards? This is new development in the latter half of 2001, something that the carriers are expending new money on to reduce interoperability.

Re:Wireless Number Portability

[Anonymous Coward]

Well hopefully it really will happen this time. I've been coding for the past month or two to make this happen for my group. We've been upgrading switches to make sure they all have the capability. We start internal testing very soon, and after that - three or four months of system testing. Whee.

Re:Wireless Number Portability

[Anonymous Coward]

Its cause and effect. FCC pushes the industry to interoperate more, but that doesnt mean the industry will comply to the FCC's intent ... only to the letter of the law. So they try to erect new walls to prevent open competition as fast as the FCC can tear them down (which aint all that fast to begin with apparently).

Makes perfect sense to me.

Ways to avoid antitrust litigation

[evilviper]

Sprit was apparently a visionary. They don't need to artifically disable unapproved phones from working... They just build their own propritary PCS system, and NOTHING can even potentially communicate with it unless it uses that same PCS protocol.

Kinda like MSN specifically disabling connections from non-Windows machines, and with AOL it isn't even possible to connect from non-Windows machines in the first place. (Yeah, yeah, Macs. I know.)

Re:Ways to avoid antitrust litigation

[aallan]

Sprit was apparently a visionary. They don't need to artifically disable unapproved phones from working... They just build their own propritary PCS system, and NOTHING can even potentially communicate with it unless it uses that same PCS protocol.

Erm, are you sure? I've regularly roamed onto Sprint when I've been in the States using my tri-band (900/1800/1990MHz) GSM phone purchased in Europe. I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be doing any funky propritary Sprint only stuff.

Al.

Re:Ways to avoid antitrust litigation

[XO]

Er... what model phone do you have that speaks both GSM and CDMA? HMm?

Re:Ways to avoid antitrust litigation

[David F.]

PCS is not a protocol, it's a frequency band. Sprint uses CDMA, same as Verizon. The only thing is Sprint restricts you to phones which they have the ID of in their database. It has nothing to do with the capabilities of the handset.

Re:Ways to avoid antitrust litigation

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have Verizon and are on the America's Choice plan your phone will work on sprint's network with no roaming....

Re:Ways to avoid antitrust litigation

[rdarden]

I've regularly roamed onto Sprint when I've been in the States using my tri-band (900/1800/1990MHz) GSM phone purchased in Europe

Are you sure it was Sprint? AFAIK they only have GSM networks (today) in a couple of US cities. I forget what that service is called.. "Sprint Spectrum" maybe?

Anyway, the major GSM players in the US are Voicestream and soon AT&T and Cingular. There are lots of small regional GSM providers too.

Re:Ways to avoid antitrust litigation

[aallan]

Are you sure it was Sprint? AFAIK they only have GSM networks (today) in a couple of US cities...

Fairly sure it was Sprint, now which city was I in? It was either NYC or Boston I think... But yes, most other places I seem to end up on Voicestream.

Al.

Re:Ways to avoid antitrust litigation

[Anonymous Coward]

Kinda like MSN specifically disabling connections from non-Windows machines

Well, funny that, my FreeBSD box seems to be talking to MSN just fine...

Re:Ways to avoid antitrust litigation

[Anonymous Coward]

You were not using Sprint PCS: Sprint PCS is CDMA only; it was built that way from the ground up. No GSM at all.

Maybe there is another company called Sprint using GSM, but it isn't Sprint PCS (which is the number three wireless carrier in the USA, if memory serves).

A free market won't always work

[EvilNTUser]

It's time the governments of the world realize a free market doesn't work everywhere.

Standards need to be set by a regulatory authority. Otherwise competing businesses will not just have the opportunity to create their own standards, they'll be forced to do so. There'll always be one business that'll use dirty tricks, so to survive, all must use them.

The U.S. cell phone market is a joke. Over here in Europe where I live I can buy any phone from anywhere. It'll work with any operator (as long as I pay for their service - duh). It will operate in any country in the world (except the U.S. and some other exceptions). There are no usage restrictions.

A few years ago when I visited the U.S. the phone I rented worked in New York, but not in Iowa! And I'll be moving to Boston next year, forcing me to get a U.S. phone. I hate you people! (well your phone companies at least...)

P.S. Is it true that text messaging doesn't always work between operators in the U.S?

Re:A free market won't always work

[PigleT]

"Over here in Europe where I live I can buy any phone from anywhere. It'll work with any operator"

IME most phones in Europe are locked into one particular operator's network. Example: I got one of the earlier Motorola Timeport P7389(?) things, which was available only on BT Cellnet at the time.
I guess I could - and did - have it unlocked to work with Orange, but that was hellish expensive - definitely not the default state.

On the other hand, both my recent Nokia purchases have been unlocked, despite buying on Cellnet...

Re:A free market won't always work

[XO]

Verizon now offers two-way text messaging, sent from the phones, to the phones ,tha twill operate with any other U.S. based carrier.

I haven't tested this, but this is what i've been informed of.

SPCS phones don't use 2-way (they apparently did not buy that option to send from the handsets from Qualcomm, considering that there isn't ONE SPCS phone [that i'm aware of -- i may be wrong] that can send messages from the handset, without using the browser), so you would be able to drop email from the phone's browser to phonenumber@network.com ...

The other U.S. carriers i really don't know much about.

Re:A free market won't always work

[mc6809e]

It's time the governments of the world realize a free market doesn't work everywhere.

What planet are you on? Governments of the past several centuries have been doing everything in their power to crush the free-market. Ever hear of the Soviet Union? How about all the little Socialist dictatorships in South America? What about the cultural revolution in China?

It's only been recently that governments have been waking up to the fact that the free-market is generally better than state-control. The free-market economic changes in Russia, India, China, and places like Chile in the past 10 years or so are nothing short of astounding. LOOK BEYOND YOUR OWN BORDERS. The U.S. isn't the whole world.

Empirically, free economies work better than state-controlled economies. That may hurt your ideological feelings, but it's true.

I know it would be fun if all us smart slashdotter's just got together and told the rest of the economy and businesses what to do.

The truth is that everyone of us over-estimates his own ability. The market works because no-one decides before hand who is going to be in charge. If someone buys what you sell, good. If they don't, you're doing something wrong.

The market is the messenger. Don't kill the messenger. Listen to what it has to say and face the facts without self-deception.

Re:A free market won't always work

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course it does. Would *you* like it if EU decided to adopt a common currency which you didn't particularly care for? How would you feel if the US told EU to adopt the US Dollar as the common currency because "we all use it over here"?

Re:A free market won't always work

[Anonymous Coward]

VoiceStream just started allowing intra-carrier sms, within the last few months. I use it to send messages to verizon customers all the time, and it works great.

Re:A free market won't always work

[flollywebfrog]

text messageing does not work amongst all USA cell phone companies. My Cingular (formarly Pacbell PCS) phone can text to Voicestream, but must send texts as email to Verizon and Sprint. ATT accepts them sometimes.

To the annoyance of my text buddies, when I must send my messages as email because the provider will not accept them from Cingular, they get a .sig file that is more characters (160) than a single text message, making my texts difficult to read and reply-to.

Re:A free market won't always work

[Anonymous Coward]

forget government inspired cooperation, how about ietf, ieee and the itu?

Re:A free market won't always work

[Cato]

BT Cellnet (O2) and Vodafone have never locked phones in the UK, and nor do Virgin. Orange and one2one (now T-Mobile) do lock their phones. However, it doesn't cost much to unlock the phones, as long as your initial contract (typically 12 months) is finished.

Phone locking is fairly pointless IMO, and should be stopped - the fact that Vodafone, who are a very profitable wireless operator, don't do it shows that it's not necessary. After all, people are already locked in by the contract, so all you are doing is stiffing them for an extra 20 UKP or whatever to unlock.

Re:A free market won't always work

[EvilNTUser]

You applied what I said too broadly. Of course free markets are better. However, as for creating standards, imho they are not. Ideology has nothing to do with it.

Operators want as many people as possible to use as many services as possible. As it is now, cell phones are probably much less popular because of all these interoperability problems. How has the free market helped these companies?

Would you perhaps like it if air traffic control was deregulated and suddenly you'd have to stop and switch airlines in the middle of your trip because the plane you were on wouldn't have been compatible with the airspace ahead of you?

The token "free" market response

[release7]

If company's need to make life less convenient and expensive for consumers, that's just the way it is. If consumers don't like it, they can just stop buying cell phones and go live life in the Australian Outback.

Life is about survival of the fittest and company's need to do what they need to do to survive. It's the law of the jungle. Yup, it's a dog-eat-dog world out there and there isn't much we can do about it.

Think about this: if the West had to share all of its technological goodies and advancements with the other 5/6ths of the world, that would mean less for us. That's not a world that is acceptable to me and that's just not the way the free market is designed to work.

If you're too poor to deal with reality, find somewhere else to live.

Re:The token "free" market response

[dbrutus]

Silly fellow, a company making life less convenient and more expensive for consumers is called a market opportunity. That's how new entrants kill established players. Companys are born, mature, and eventually die. If they don't respond to customer demand, they tend to do so a lot faster.

Re:The token "free" market response

[release7]

Did you happen to see what this what this thread was about? If not, I'll summarize:

Basically the gist was that the free market was failing citizens who'd like more convenience from their cell phones but since the "free" market isn't delivering. Instead, they are forced to sue the cell phone carriers to have their needs met.

Re:The token "free" market response

[Grue]

Hmmmm, I wish I was that optimistic about the "free" market. It doesn't matter whether they respond to customer demand or not. It's whether they can CREATE a demand, possibly one the customer didn't even know he wanted.

Josh

Re:The token "free" market response

[dbrutus]

The idea that cellular phone networks are a free market is laughable. The barriers to entry are fierce and largely political. New entrants have high barriers of entry and this distorts and facilitates bad behavior. The cure is to lower the barrier to entry so that established carriers have to either cater to customer needs or they watch their market share erode to upstarts who do a better job of it.

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In their defense...

[rrich007]

As someone who has worked in the wireless industry, there is a reason why carriers only allow curtain phones on their networks.

As most of us know, there are six widely used technologies, Analog, GSM, CDMA 800mHz, CDMA 1900mHz, TDMA 800mHz, and TDMA 1900mHz.

Most carriers only have their towers equipped for one, maybe two frequencies. In your case, while Sprint used to use the GSM technology, they now only use the CDMA 1900mHz for their phones.

Only phones made for that technology will work on that system.

The other issue that is run across quite a bit is knowledge. Most wireless representatives will have no idea how to program handsets they do not actually sell, even if they run on the same technology and frequency. A person who sells only Nokia and Motorola handsets will have no clue how to program an older Ericsson or Samsung, for example.

Another reason they require their own handsets deals with the fact that many companies (AT&T and Sprint for example) upgrade the software in the phones before sending them to the stores.

They do this to make sure you have the ability properly access their networks.

I agree that wireless providers should provide quite a bit more selection in stocking their handsets, but I would don't expect them to sell and support every type of handset out there.

Thats like requiring car manufacturers to make sure all their vehicles can use diesel, gasoline, petroleum, electricity, fuel cells and ethenol, and have them interchangable.

All it will do is drive the price of the service and handsets up, not just for the added technology, but for the additional training and expertise the representatives will need.

Re:In their defense...

[software_non_olet]

You example "Thats like requiring car manufacturers to make sure all their vehicles can use diesel, gasoline, petroleum, electricity, fuel cells and ethenol, and have them interchangable." is simply wrong.

The present situation is as if you were forced to buy your gasoline for your Ford only from companies associated with Ford. Or, if you move from one state to the other and need a new number plate, you would have to buy a new car.

Re:In their defense...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the SIM stupid!

The dealer doesn't need to know how to program phones, just the SIM card with the customer's telephone ID.

Re:In their defense...

[Anonymous Coward]

As most of us know, there are six widely used technologies

No, most of us know better. Why did you split out the two bands of CDMA and TDMA and not the three bands of GSM?! Your list is at least two "technologies" short, which makes me wonder how informed you really are. Not understanding the significance of GSM is typical of the myopic, North American experience. Believing your country is the center of the world may work when it comes to software, but you may want to take some tips from others when it comes to wireless. Your country is bogged down in petty infrastructure and telco wars.

Re:In their defense...

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who has worked in the wireless industry

So you sold cell phones at BestBuy...

Re:In their defense...

[Kanasta]

As someone who lives outside the US, I can say that we can buy handsets from anywhere (even outside the country) and buy a sim card from any carrier and expect it to work flawlessly.

Maybe the US are just technologically inept?

Or more likely, it's just the effect of companies too comfortable with their power.

Here, we can send SMS from any carrier to any other carrier, even from GSM network to CDMA ones.

We can change carriers and keep our phone no.s.

So why can't the US, with a market 100 times larger to spread the cost over, do the same thing?

Re:In their defense...

[interiot]

Agreed. Cell phones are a bit different from landline phones, in that a larger percentage of the phone's features require the cooperation of the cell tower, so much more configuration is involved. This situation is more akin to AT&T broadband only officialy supporting Windows (no linux) and MSIE (no mozzila) because the 10$/hour employees are only trained for their setup.

Re:In their defense...

[parp]

I would don't expect them to sell and support every type of handset out there.

This is where the problem lies. Why is the Wireless Provider the one who sells and supports the phone?

In the Tech industry, its the hardware manufactures that sell and support the hardware, and you can by a PC with a modem, Token Ring, or Eithernet or all of the above. The Internet Service Provider only has to support the network and protocol - PPP, DSL, CableModem, Not Every brand PC out there. ISPs would loose lots of businiess if they required you to to use only their computer hardware and software.

I'm not a Wireless Industry expert but it would seem to me that the Cell phone manufactures, Motorola, Nokia, Ericson, Samsung, etc need to change thier business model, to include sales and support.

Customers will win big when they can choose their phone, with multinetwork capabilities. They may pay more for it to access multiple Wireless providers, but they get the choice that way, and the Best Hardware Provider and the Best Network Provider both win.

Re:In their defense...

[Jester99]

Thats like requiring car manufacturers to make sure all their vehicles can use diesel, gasoline, petroleum, electricity, fuel cells and ethenol, and have them interchangable.

No, it's like telling a gas station that regardless of if you're driving a Chevy Impala, a Ford Mustang, or a Mercedes that they have to be able to fill your tank up.

"Oh, sorry, we're allied with GM. Did you consider selling your VW and buying a Geo? That way, we could sell you fuel."

If you're in a town where only general motors cars can get fuel, and you really need gas for your BMW, you're S.O.L., even though there's not a good reason why you can't buy fuel there: it'll still work in your car.

If a place only sells diesel fuel and you need regular unleaded, that's one thing. But two cars that both can use premium should be able to buy premium from the same vendor.

Re:In their defense...

[rrich007]

I agree, the U.S. did miss the boat entirely on how wireless systems should have been implemented. I apologize for not breaking down the three bands of GSM, its my typical US thinking. I would hope that my point on that could be understood.

Re:In their defense...

[rdarden]

As most of us know, there are six widely used technologies, Analog, GSM, CDMA 800mHz, CDMA 1900mHz, TDMA 800mHz, and TDMA 1900mHz.

I don't think this is the problem we're discussing. A dual-band (800/1900) CDMA phone will work just fine on the Verizon or SprintPCS networks if they would let customers use them. And I'm not talking about using an ancient CDMA 1900 phone that nobody will know how to set up, I'm talking about a brand-new phone without a subsidy lock. I for one would pay $500 for a phone if I knew I could use it with any service provider (who uses the standard, be it GSM 1900 or CDMA).

Another reason they require their own handsets deals with the fact that many companies (AT&T and Sprint for example) upgrade the software in the phones before sending them to the stores.

This isn't required - they add logos and tailor how the user interface works so that the end-user can figure out their phone more easily. Non-customized phones will still work perfectly well on their networks. How about the service providers say, "If you want to use a non-subsidy-locked phone on our network fine..But we won't help you figure out your phone. Complain to us only if you get lots of dropped calls."

Re:In their defense...

[istartedi]

I agree that wireless providers should provide quite a bit more selection in stocking their handsets, but I would don't expect them to sell and support every type of handset out there.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that. I think they are suggesting that artificial barriers to interoperability should be removed. Removing such barriers doesn't necessarily imply that you have to support every product. By "support" I mean "provide bundled customer support".

The best analogy I can think of is working for an ISP, which I've done. We only "supported" Netscape, and IE on Windows and MacOS. That didn't mean users couldn't use pine on Linux. It just meant that if they called us having a problem with that, we just gave them server settings and sent them on their way.

So, from a support standpoint, I think all they are asking is that the network be open to phones that are capable of accessing the network. If somebody has a problem with a 3rd party phone, all the company's service rep has to do is say "make sure it's a foobar compatable phone" and check for network outages in their area. Anything else would indeed be unreasonable, since the rep could be exposed to a virtually unlimited range of technologies for which they aren't trained. Also, it would open the door for customers to take advantage of reps in unreasonable ways. I swear I'm not making this up: One time a customer called us asking for help with a modem that his brother had *built* as a project.

Re:In their defense...

[Anonymous Coward]

The biggest problem is the way that the goverment allocated the blocks of frequencies. In Europe, they use one block of frequencies for all carriers. Here in the US, they decided to create "competition" by setting aside 3 different frequency blocks in each market.. Now this made a lot of money for the Government but basically stiffled any chance of having one standard used by all carriers and handsets.

In the land based service there is one standard that all phone companies work with. This seems to work just fine. Why did we have to make it so difficult to get decent mobile phone service?

Re:In their defense...

[Artifex]

Only phones made for that technology will work on that system.

Well, you know, that's why I went with a tri-band GSM phone (a Motorola p7389), a year ago. The European networks don't have a problem running different phones across GSM... why does the US?

The other issue that is run across quite a bit is knowledge. Most wireless representatives will have no idea how to program handsets they do not actually sell, even if they run on the same technology and frequency. A person who sells only Nokia and Motorola handsets will have no clue how to program an older Ericsson or Samsung, for example.

Perhaps. But that doesn't explain why, if I switch to AT&T's new GSM/GPRS network, they want me to buy at least a Motorola 7382i form them, if not something more expensive. Web browsers for phones (at least Motorolas) are ridiculous, anyhow, so I don't need GPRS. So why do I have to have a phone with GPRS, and why can't I get one from a catalog or direct from the manufacturer (thereby getting around the excuse that the firmware is not up to date), if GPRS is not just an optional layer?

The answer, of course, is that the service providers make money off the phones! If not directly, they talk you into long contracts in order to decrease the price of the handset, and some will also try to charge you to "unlock" your phones when you change providers, as well.

Re:In their defense...

[Dillan]

You could always try what they did in the UK, force them to share towers. Apart from cutting down the blight of towers it did mean the network rolled out a whole lot quicker than it would otherwise.

It makes me laugh when I hear something like this; our politicos are always telling us how the USofA is so far ahead of us and how we should all ape your economic models. Yeah just like our rugby team apeing the kiwis is so succesful.

I still can't get over coming off a US military transport in the far east and firing up my mobile to check in with the family. Forty folks with jaws on the floor - "how come your cellphone works here? Where did you get that?"

Re:In their defense...

[Observer]

Here, we can send SMS from any carrier to any other carrier, even from GSM network to CDMA ones.

This is generally the case now for carriers in the same country (though in some cases it took pressure from the regulators before the carriers agreed to do this). Sending messages to a destination in another country, though, is still something of a crap-shoot. It will work more often than not, but some carriers are selectively blocking messages from other carriers, and the blocking lists are seldom made public (they change without notice, too). The background to all this is apparently that the SMS service was never expected to be the success it has become (expecially its use by young people): the carriers were thinking more in terms of a follow-on to paging services with the added facility to call back to the home base. As a result, mechanisms for charging other carriers for forwarding their messages were never included in the specifications. So where traffic flows between two carriers are highly unbalanced the carrier on the predominantly receiving side will sometimes put a block in place until a contract can be negotiated for compensatory payments.

Some of my work is in this area, and these black holes in the messaging coverage are not only an irritation ("Why didn't the message I sent get through?"), but are hampering rollout of some useful commercial information services.

Re:In their defense...

[Moofie]

If you think the US is technically inept, you're either frighteningly ignorant or wearing God's own cultural blinders.

If you think US phone companies are inept, and simply didn't express that thought well, then you and I are in complete agreement.

Overgeneralizations are for sloppy thinkers.

Antitrust, Shmantitrust.

[aleonard]

Bah. Hey, guys. Yeah, you wireless phone manufacturers. I'm talking to you. I have the perfect, non-legislative/judicial solution for you.

MAKE YOUR OWN NETWORK.

See? It's quite simple. When the Internet was getting bogged down and the universities wanted it faster, did they sue AOL and Napster? No, they made their OWN NETWORK.

This is another arena for competition, and if it works right, it will force closed networks to open up - and if they don't, they die. Or, if it doesn't really work out, and the consumers (the only ones that matter) don't mind being confined to a single network, then it won't force the closed networks to open.

Personally, I'd prefer an open network, but not if it's the most profitable, no one has any right to tell them how to run their property.

Use the capitalist solution. Either play along with those who have put money and labor and resources into building a network - You have no intrinsic right to their labor - or combine money, labor and resources, and make your own network.

There's no need to drag the government into one of the most free markets we have.

Re:Antitrust, Shmantitrust.

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't this what sprint did? True their service is good but if you don't live in or near a big city you're not going to get good service (i say this as i can't get a signal in my workplace or when i go to stay with my parents in nj)

-dk

Re:Antitrust, Shmantitrust.

[aleonard]

Yeah, but again, Sprint's network only works with their own. I'm speaking of a coalition type of thing, with the express purpose of creating an open network. If they can do it, then it might work. Otherwise, they have no right to force the other networks to open up.

If Sprint's method is the most profitable and innovative, then it will survive. The other companies have no right to force Sprint to change.

Re:Antitrust, Shmantitrust.

[user32.ExitWindowsEx]

Don't the wireless providers own the towers and other gear? Didn't they already effectively do that?

WAFFLES!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi there. Today, I want to talk about a subject near and dear to all of our hearts.

WAFFLES.

There are many types of waffles. Some are belgian, some are fruity, some come from Waffle House and taste like baked shit. Some have sugar in them, but it's rumored that this is a European Communist Plot to make everybody fat. Some are "Eggos", which you are supposed to "Leggo". Some are cheap and generic, others cost upwards of a thousand dollars for a single helping. There are those you eat plain, and others go better with toppings, such as powdered sugar and Maple Syrup.

My favorite type of waffle is Belgian with fruit and stuff on top. Now that's a fucking good waffle. But there are other options... in fact, there's something for everyone!

Yes, waffles. A timeless American tradition.

WA-WA-WA-WAFFLES, EAT ONE TODAY!

This has been a presentation of the National Waffle Council.

Re:WAFFLES!

[Anonymous Coward]

Royo-Poyo is that you?

Re:Parent is underrated- the hell it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent is probably modded down as a troll because it's a damned troll. The account isn't Taco's, yet it routinely gets up-modded, every time it posts, no matter what innocuous slash-bot blather it's spouting, because of the name... and it never actually follows-up in the threads it starts, because it has nothing to say, not being even an honest karma-whore- you'll notice that none of *them* are capable of shutting up.

Apparently moderators who got accounts, like, last week or something, are impressed; moderators like me, who know better, would usually rather mod underrated posts up than punish this troll. This time, one of those two conditions didn't pertain.

If you're in any doubt that this account is trolling, the .sig should be a dead giveaway- it's prima facie flamebait, regardless of the post's content. The moderator was correct, more power to 'em.

Hope this helped.

Why this was moderated as a troll:

[BandSaw]

Because if ignorance is bliss, Slashdot moderators are in heaven.

one other thing, re: security

[XO]

Someone brought up . hey.. make a cell phone scanner.. Exactly.

There goes digital cellular security right out the window.

Though i'm certain that someone could already do it, it'd probably be a lot easier to hack up a phone to do some crazy whack ass shit like scan other digital calls, if that phone was allowed to access the network.

Not all of them do that.

[blair1q]

I called VoiceStream about allowing a certain phone on their network. They initially indicated it wouldn't work, but when I pointed out it had the proper band, they said I was free to try it.

I don't think the complainers have much of a case. Phone systems are different because their designers start with different frequency allocations, and since they won't get any hardware reuse, they don't bother to make consistent protocols either. And nobody's telling them to do so.

This is the reason you don't want laissez-faire in some consumer industries. You get what you wish for.

--Blair

Re:Not all of them do that.

[Anonymous Coward]

I moved from Europe to the US and came prepared.

I had a Motorola TriBand phone purchased in Europe, that is NOT sim-locked.
I simply walked into a local VoiceStream store and got service. I must say that the sales reps where somewhat unprepared and had never seen my model phone before but it worked just fine after putting the phone to the 1900 band and putting a voicestream SIM into the phone.

Re:Parent is underrated- the hell it is

[MiTEG]

Silly me. For some bizzare reason I thought moderation was supposed to be done based on the content of the post. Guess I was wrong.

As for the .sig, I thought it was flamebait too until I actually read the journal entry. Quite interesting. Being a Linux user myself, I think that one of the main reasons I use it is because it is FREE. I'd hesitate to label myself as cheap, but the price certainly does have its appeal. Though I do believe the same article was published on CNet or some such place a few months ago.

Show your true potential- make the system help YOU

[Anonymous Coward]

Many people reading this will have lost a job in IT recently, or have taken condition/pay cut. Others know and feel the current threat. This is the future of computing, especially for Unix experts -- there just aren't the jobs any more, as most new firms "choose" NT. Unfortunately, certain people still proclaim the joy of systems which will only drive their experts to financial hell and, ultimately, bankruptcy.

We need to get across the message that sensible, rational debate is required. The true virtues and deficiencies must be recognised, and evangelism and zealotry stamped out at all costs. Once forums such as these are seen as frequented by sensible people who are interested in the real truth, the community as a whole will be taken more seriously -- and we may see an upturn in prospects, ultimately giving you a chance at a better career and, ultimately, a better life.

You can make a difference, by turning this forum into something more honest, and more impartial. How? Well, you have moderator points.. start off by modding up this post, so as many as possible can read the message. Then, expand your thoughts on the issue, and post your updated version -- other readers will then be able to mod up your enhanced post.

Imagine -- a forum as flexible as Slashdot, but one which offers a realistic outlook on the world. You can make this happen, today.

policy choices

[j09824]

It's unfortunate that issues like these are treated as legal matters in the US, not policy choices. Cell phone carriers have a valid argument that by tying phones to their service, they can offer more integrated and customer friendly service (sounds familiar?). But that is likely to be outweighed by the benefits to consumers of giving them phone and number portability between carriers. The choice between the two is a policy choice, not a legal matter (I think the same applies to Microsoft's business practices, which are quite similar).

Re:policy choices

[Thu Anon Coward]

"Cell phone carriers have a valid argument that by tying phones to their service, they can offer more integrated and customer friendly service (sounds familiar?). But that is likely to be outweighed by the benefits to consumers of giving them phone and number portability between carriers. The choice between the two is a policy choice, not a legal matter...."


I'm sorry, but that is THE biggest load of horseshit I have ever heard. I have seen cell phones that are identical down to all the features and model #'s. The only difference? One is programmed for one network while the other is programmed for their competitors. How can you justify the statement of "tying phones to service makes it more integrated and customer friendly service"? And calling most of their customer service friendly? That's like calling tits on a boar hog useful.

I sent Sprint PCS Customer Service three emails asking them "I've been a loyal customer for 4 yrs and need a new phone. What are you going to do to keep me?" Three times they sent a reply back saying "Go into the store and talk to the sales people". Please, I went there once. They had 20 customers and 3 salespeople, one of which was processing payments for customers in line. Why the hell should I even have to go into the store when my issue deals with customer service? When I talked to a re-seller in the mall, they stated that Sprint wouldn't do squat to keep me as a customer, but they were willing to give free phones to new customers.

You want happy customers? Give them the choice to use their own phones AND give them OUTSTANDING Customer Service, not Customer Dis-Service! Barring the current environment, the only way to force those bastards to treat people right, is to give number portability. That is the only thing holding me back right now. I've had my cell# for over 4 yrs and it is tied to me due to the similarity with my house phone. That phone # is my bread-and-butter with my customers. I can't just go and change it.

Re:policy choices

[sxpert]

sent Sprint PCS Customer Service three emails asking them "I've been a loyal customer for 4 yrs and need a new phone. What are you going to do to keep me?"

Heh, here, in europe, My provider (SFR) sent me an email to go to a personalized page on their web site and choose a new phone (I have had the same contract for 2 years). I chose the nicest one and, lo and behold, the phone was delivered by express carrier 2 days later...

assmoney?

[Anonymous Coward]

moneyass ass ass tire spell tree. dash fill soak ass money

Huh? Again?!

[saikou]

One of such lawsuits was dropped.
In att wireless newsgroup there was a storm of messages about the suite.
But there is even more questions about the merit of this litigation:
1. Affiliate definition (page 13, paragraph 56). I can be in "ROAMING" area, does that mean roamer is an affiliate? Even though I was charged for it?
2. Paragparh 58 is not true for VoiceStream -- they allow you to unlock your phone and use different SIM card, and different SID-related logic
3. Handset with incompatible standards cannot be moved to another carrier even if it was possible (as well as special software for network-depended features).
4. Paragraph 62 is baseless. There are dual-system (and triple-system) telephones, those that support TDMA and GSM, TDMA/AMPS and GSM
5. Paragraph 64: carriers still offer cheap/free/subsidised phones of correct system. Therefore argument "I want my GSM nokia on Sprint" is not valid. Consumer benefits of having old model from different system ported onto new carrier network are questionable at least. GSM Phones (VoiceStream) can be ported if needed, and carriers do not prevent people from buying unlocked (and very expensive ;) ) phones for the full price.

I would love if they instead sued FCC for imposing charges that actually represent undeclared tax and can be up to 30% of the service cost (which is true for land lines as well) and for allowing postponding of Cellular Number Portability requirement. I bet it will be postponed again this year ;)

imode: something to be said for monopoly

[hqm]

The people making this lawsuit have no idea what
they are talking about.

I lived in Japan for two years, and just returned to the US. I found that the cell phones in Japan are literally years ahead of phones in the US, and data and Internet features like iMode, email, and Java apps on the handset, which simply work
in Japan, are completely hopelessly brokne in the US.

As far as I can tell this lossage is due precisely to the lack of any leverage that carriers have over handset makers in the US. In Japan, NTT DoCoMo, and the other carriers, dictate exactly what features they want, and thus
they get high quality user experience; all the phones have compatible web browsers, color displays, internet email, and other features. The features all work almost perfectly across the different handset models from different manufacturers.

Contrast this to the pathetic piece of junk called WAP in the US, where each phone has different incompatible implementations. Some phones have color WBMP support (hah!), others handle GIF, other PNG, others JPG. Some carriers gateways have byte limits of 1 kbyte, others higher, no telling which is which though. Chance of actually displaying a color picture, or a proper web page on your phone: about zero.

Email does not work consistently on US phones, and Java applets are still science fiction. People have the WAP forum to thank for this
pathetic situation. They were so greedy that they
tried to get all the carriers to standardize prematurely on technology that solved non-existent problems. NTT DoCoMo just went ahead and basically just built HTML 2.0 into thier phones (iMode) and it works an order of magnitude better than WAP.

This is preventing me from getting a Treo...

[NanoGator]

Just to be clear, I'm not sure if I can get a Treo with AT&T or not. I have made 0 inquiries about it. I haven't tried to because a long time ago I tried to go from Sprint to AT&T. Result? I had to buy a new phone from AT&T. Fortunately, I didn't mind at the time because the Sprint phone I had was crap. But this basically stuck the idea in my mind that if I don't get the phone through AT&T, I won't be able to use it.

The Treo's I've seen at Best Buy had 'Voice Stream' marked all around them. So I just shrugged and decided to wait. I really don't want to switch from AT&T, but I would like to get a PDA phone in the next 6 months or so.

Curious, though: Are there any AT&T customers with a Palm based phone?

Re:This is preventing me from getting a Treo...

[Anonymous Coward]

every treo report i have heard in the UK (we have had them 1.5yrs) , as a device its a good idea but in reality use it sucks,
unreliable,crap battery life etc etc

never buy version 1 of anything
as a Nokia & Ericsson developer i get to see whats tech is next and Treo is gonna be out of date real soon (if it isnt here already)

save your money, this shit has just got going

Re:This is preventing me from getting a Treo...

[Vegeta99]

You had to switch because Sprint uses a different technology (CDMA) than AT&T (TDMA).

It might work. AT&T is starting to do GSM, which is what the Treo uses. Just switch SIMs. Give them a call and hope you live in a GSM service area.

Re:This is preventing me from getting a Treo...

[NanoGator]

Thanks for the info. :)

Repent, FAGS.

[Dick Veiney]

Rob Malda's Special Upstairs Milk

oo_____
oj_____j
/_____/_\
|_(~)_|_|
| )"( |_|
|(@_@)|_|
|_____|,'
Rob Malda fucks Hemos in the ass!

il iike turteles

[Anonymous Coward]

moneyass ass assddd tire spellddddd tree. daasdf dasfafdssh fill soasdffdasfdassdssda adssda sdda ssdak ass money a b d c e g f h ixxxx k j l nxx m o p r qxxxx s t q u w v yfdas sfdax z asdf asfdx z x

VoiceStream for unlocked phones

[jonbrewer]

I suggest VoiceStream. I have had no trouble using several phones with them. It's just a matter of popping the sim card out and moving it to a different phone. I have so far resisted getting a triband phone (I prefer Nokia and their triband is $$$) and so pop my sim card out of one Nokia 69xx series and in to another. I have had no trouble using the service in the US, Canada, UK, Netherlands, Poland, Switzerland, Greece, or Spain.

This is probably because VoiceStream is owned by Deutsch Telekom.

Re:VoiceStream for unlocked phones

[CatPieMan]

I have a voicestream tiband phone (a motorola one -- b/c I like motorola). I am based on the east coast but right now am down in sydney australia. The phone logs onto one of the 3 major carriers in Australia (Telstra, Optus, or Vodaphone) and just works. The service is great (although a bit expensive) and easy to use. They also do not have regulations about which phone you can use -- they even have some info on their web site about how to use a phone not issued by them on their network (they do mention that it has to be a gsm phone).

On the flip side of things, in australia (from what I've seen), phones and plans are sold seperate -- I have 2 friends with the same phone but different carriers that were purchased from the same store (I think).

How can I find out?

[FredGray]

A few months ago, I got an Ericsson T28 WorldPhone together with a service agreement from VoiceStream Wireless. I may end up living in Europe for a few years after I finish grad school next year, so I picked ths phone thinking of the long term. I didn't know about this phone locking business at the time. Does anyone know how I can definitively tell whether this phone is locked to VoiceStream? It's probably a bad sign that their name is printed on it... :-(

Thanks!

Re:How can I find out?

[gus2000]

First, if you got the phone directly from Voicestream then it is definitely locked. Call customer service and explain that you would like to have the phone unlocked so that you can use a different SIM in a different country. As long as you still have a few months left on your contract (and you tell them how happy you are with your service), they will be happy to give you the code to unlock it. That's all it takes... I also have the T28 and did exactly that, and it works fine.

I hope that this discussion motivates people to switch to Voicestream. They are the network that most "gets it" of all of them.

Re:How can I find out?

[FredGray]

Thanks for your answer. I took a look at some of the wireless rumor sites, and they suggest that VoiceStream's policy is to give out the SIM unlock code to customers who have been in good standing for at least three months. If you call customer service, you should ask for the "Advanced activations" department. The other way is to send e-mail to -simunlock- at -voicestream- dot -com- (I like this company enough to spam-protect their address!). It's supposed to take about a week. I just sent an e-mail request; we'll see what happens!

Re:How can I find out?

[BRTB]

Actually don't call them, I tried that 6 times and they "filled out a form" on their end and I never got the code this way.

What you need to do is email simunlock@voicestream.com with the original phone owner's name, the original mobile number, the IMEI number (on a sticker on the phone somewhere or type *#06# into the phone), the carrier name (was it an old Aerial phone pre-merger, or was it real VoiceStream, etc), city/region where it was first used and the date of purchase, all so they can find the right database with the codes. Got an email the next morning (Sunday no less) with the 8-digit SIM unlock code.

Doesn't appear that they lock their new phones anymore... if you want a no-frills american-GSM phone you can get a Nokia 3390 from them for $99 through their prepaid sales.

(must give thanks here to jesus herrera who posted the unlock info info first on this message board =] )

Re:How can I find out?

[FredGray]

So, for the record, I got my unlock code. :-)

Re:Show your true potential- make the system help

[_Knots]

Whole new meaning to "meta-moderation" there.

-knots

hi you

[Anonymous Coward]

a few minutes ago, i got an Erection 5.25INCHES together with a glistening wet rectum. i may end up living under a bridge after my allowance runs out and my momsells all my computers and makes me go try to get a job but i don't wnat a job i wanna write all my software for free me should be frree i want to be free like morpheus and MARTRICX!!! does anyone know how i can definitively tell whether or not this post is runnoing pit of steam as i rub my gnu/cock un an ddown slash slash salsdhot slashdot omgomgomg unnnngngg!! Thanks!

Re:As opposed to?-service code.

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no explaination needed. My nokia phone has the ability to add and take away some features. If my carrier doesn't give me the code, said feature doesn't exist.

Wait a second here...

[AnimeFreak]

I thought Microsoft was the only one allowed to be accused of such a thing? :P

Re:I can't understand...PAL,SECAM

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah those damn europeans and their PAL and SECAM.
I want to carry my video equipment everywere too.

GSM Service in the US.

[BadlandZ]

For starters, VoiceStream is tops. They offer SIM cards (which no other US provider I know of offers) that you can put in any GSM phone and get service. AT&T is starting to follow suit.

I hope there are more I don't know of... I hope... But you can get a phone from USTronics (and I hope someone post links to more, it's sad they are the only company I know of, I have no connection to them but give them credit for this).

GSM 900 is a standard, but low and being phased out. GSM 1800 is the EU and World standard, and now that the US is doing GSM they "have to be propriatary" and only offer 1900 band, not 1800 band. That honestly has more to do with the FCC and bandwidth avaliablity than it has the standard, but it has a bit to do with both.

Your best bet, as a consumer is that wants service, is to get a tri band GSM that does 900/1800/1900) and is unlocked and will accept a SIM card.

Re:GSM Service in the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot cingular and AT&T Wireless along with Voicestream they are all 1900Mhz GSM and between them cover main areas of population.

Re:imode: something to be said for monopoly

[Anonymous Coward]

iMode uses cHTML (compact HTML). cHTML is a subsite of HTML plus some additional tags, characters and features. It still has a long way to go for full HTML support.

WAP may be worse, but you can get the Ericsson T68 in the US, this has a color display, internet email (POP3, SMTP), animatated messages, etc. etc.
How many sites are designed for cHTML in the US anyway? Do we need iMode?

Re:How can I find out if i'm gay?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello, FredGay, today is your lucky day!

Re:The token "free" market response(the outback?!)

[Anonymous Coward]

Well that Outback comment was hardly justified! What do you think, we use cans with a bit of string between them to communicate down here?

I've travelled quite a bit, and you know what? My Nokia GSM triband (the very latest piece of kit too, none of that stuff you're stuck with in the USA) works just as well in the Australian Outback as it does across Europe and Asia.

Only sometimes could I get it to work without hassle in what the rest of the world considers to be a telecommunications backwater: the USA.

-- A very bemused Sydneysider

No, locked is locked....

[BadlandZ]

Companies lock out features they don't provide, and criple cell phone software. PERIOD.

You have to consider, they many not lock you out of switching companies as much now (because they "lock you in" in other ways, like 1 year service contracts.)

But, the lock codes still "criple" the phone companys software on the phone.... Those Nokia and Ericsson phones do a LOT more than the company want's to provide support for, so they "LOCK" the features out to keep you from asking "why isn't my email/text messaging working, I found the option on the phone!

What do the hardware manufactures think

[BlueTooth]

I wonder how much of this comes as a result of pressure from handset makers. By not allowing handsets to be transfered between wireless companies Motorola (or whoever) might get to sell two (possibly identical) handsets instead of one.

Also, this restricion might allow the wireless companies more better deals with the handset mfgs. As far as I can tell it would generally be in the best interest for the wirless company to allow any handset (lowering the barriers for cusomters to switch to their service).

So how much of this is the result of wireless companies being bullied by handset makers (just has PC mfgs are bullied by MS)?

~Adam

wireless carriers are definitely crooked...

[Anonymous Coward]

First, whenever I walk into one of the Verizon stores, they have hired Playboy supermodels as "greeters."

Second, Cellular has been around for 20 years, and there has been little real progress. So it's digital now, big deal. Phones are still too expensive, and service still costs, at the very least, 10 cents a min (I think it's cheaper in Afganastan because they never had a wired infrastructure to "compete" with -- or be bought out by -- and some plans are over 50 cents per minute. What a ripoff. I think that's at least as bad as $450 for Windows XP Pro, retail.

bah.

Re:wireless carriers are definitely crooked...

[steve_l]

yeah. And why is it in the US that calls are charged per minute (not by second), and you pay for incoming. In europe 300 minutes per month means 300 minutes outgoing chat; in the US that means 300 inbound or oubound calls, maximum, even if they are only litte 10 second answering machine pings.

[Offtopic] But not really

[The Cat]

I've got 50 karma (about 14 today), so...
so what?

All this talk of the US cell phones being so broken compared to Europe and Japan? Tsk tsk tsk...

Shame.

and all those intelligent, educated software engineers sitting at home reading the want ads, deciding whether to become a plumber or an electrician....

really is a shame...

see any CONNECTION HERE?? MANAGEMENT???? HELLO?????????

Well, of course you don't. Hurry along now, you're late for your all-day meeting!

Someone said "it'll get worse before it gets better?" I sure hope not.

Fine...

[gvonk]

The dealer doesn't need to know how to program phones, just the SIM card with the customer's telephone ID.

You show me the SIM card in my Nokia 8260 and I'll give you $10 billion.

There is precedent in this case

[erroneus]

...well, some level of precedent.

I'm technically not old enough to remember any of this, but from what I recall, there was some issues with the phone company not selling phone equipment to people -- only leasing.

There was some issue about the use of non-Bell phones on the system. Could someone respond with more intelligent and enlightening information regarding this?

The gist of it is that the general population won the right to use their own phones on their phone connection without being hassled by the phone company about it.

Re:There is precedent in this case

[jrp2]

There was some issue about the use of non-Bell phones on the system. Could someone respond with more intelligent and enlightening information regarding this?

There were BIG issues around this. I am old enough to remember when you were supposed to rent a thingie (a box full of caps) to isolate your non-bell equipment from the phone lines (but was young enough then to completely ignore that rule). You can find a lot of info on this with a google search for "carterphone". My favorite page that covers this and a lot of other phun stuff from telco history is here at Sandman's telco history site. Lots of cool pics of phones, old catalogs and shit. The background of the Carterphone decision is towards the beginning.

Re:There is precedent in this case

[Madwand]

The precedent legal case is the Carterfone decision from 1968.

The short version is: AT&T tried to prohibit a third-party device at the customer's premesis from connecting to network, and they lost. Thus opened up the market for telephones made by companies other than Western Electric.

The Cellular industry is probably going to go the same route; they'll fight this, and they'll lose (sooner, ones hopes, rather than later).

TROLLING AND CRAPFLOODING FAQ VERSION 1

[Anonymous Coward]

This FAQ is designed to give tips on trolling on Slashdot, created in celebration of Blackout Week. It is dedicated to all hard-working trolls and crapflooders.

How do I crapflood?
A crapflood is an (intentionally) content-free post. Here are some suggestions for the source of your crapflood -- remember to take care with repetition, odd characters, or repetition, to get past the lameness filter:

1. your local dictionary file, e.g. /usr/share/dict/words on BSDs
2. your local real names file, e.g. /usr/share/dict/propernames on BSDs
3. a copy-paste part of a web page (for extra amusement, copy-paste from Slashdot itself)
4. a UU-encoded newsgroup file
5. some output from a lorem ipsum generator
6. examples of your latest spams, particularly those in Korean
7. allowing your cat to walk across the keyboard for a few minutes.

How do I widen pages?
A method is known and delivered to us by the beautiful Klerck which currently works in Internet Explorer alone. This will therefore ruin the browsing experience of by far the majority of Slashdot readers. Start with the text:

http://www.eveeieyhfgfcdoosammgwsnboivvbsczxlzgabc /

then repeat /ooieiabdcdjsvbkeldfogjhiyeeejkagclmieooionoepdk /

several times, remembering to avoid the compression filter trap by using different random characters.

How do I karma whore?
"Karma whoring" is the practice of gaining moderation points for their own sake. It is particularly useful in techniques for defeating the moderation system. Some tips for karma whoring are:

1. If the site containing the actual article is not on a fast server (i.e. is not a "big site"), re-post the article with subject, "the article -- in case the site gets slashdotted". Make sure this comes as early as possible in the list of comments, to avoid the dreaded (-1, Redundant).
2. If any article pops up on Microsoft, write a stock two paragraphs explaining why Microsoft is immoral, and why the event described cannot happen with Free Software. I shall not supply text, because tests have shown that moderators are not completely stupid, and can identify duplicate posts (this is actually helpful in defeating the moderation system, see below).
3. For any article discussing a particular company, state that you worked there, and offer your "inside knowledge". Note that geeks do visit Slashdot, so do not fall into the trap of being too obvious a fraud -- a mistake made by such amateur trolls as PhysicsGenius, who must now suffer a life of instant down-modding.

How do I defeat the moderation system?
The moderation system is far from flawless. Here are some ways to devalue it:

1. If you have moderator points, for goodness sake abuse them! How about moderating up a First Post, a crapflood, or best of all, this very FAQ? It would be a crime to allow such an easily abused system to work.
2. Copy the text of another person's post, and paste it as a reply to an earlier post. Most people read oldest messages first, so they will consider yours to be the first message, and the later message to be "redundant". This is great for annoying karma whores.

How do I defeat authentication?
Don't. The FBI will arrest you for being a terrorist. Instead, make an authoritative nick like CmdrTaco (editor). The majority of people are easily fooled, and will be likely to take notice of and respond to your post, and even moderate it up. Think of it like Lunix Turvalds walking into the room -- people listen to what he has to say, and don't dare disagree.

How do I defeat the goatse link early warning system?
Simple -- use one of the many foolishly implemented redirector URLs hosted on well-known sites. Here's an innocuous recent example which pretends to link to the highly informative about.com, but in fact links to a site of the popular 90's lesbian band The Spice Girls: Informative link which will get me karma

What are some excellent sites to sneakily link to?
Mostly, you should link to gay porn. If you are reading this FAQ, you already know the URLs, so I don't need to supply them, except to say that it's almost an initiation ceremony in Slashdot trolling to link to goatse.

Administrativa

How do I justify the existence of this FAQ?
Slashdot is full of people who support unlicensed weapons ownership and dissemination of bomb creation documents -- in short, they support freedom, even when that freedom could cause harm. This document should be considered as that very freedom in action. Indeed, to disparage or moderate down this document would be un-American, and the FBI are likely to arrest you for being a terrorist.

How do I add to or change this FAQ?
Simply re-post the FAQ on Slashdot, adding an appropriate question, and incrementing the version number by 1. Before doing so, please try to ensure you have the latest version, and remember to keep this post W3C compliant!

How else can I help with the Troll and Crapflooding Cause?
Moderate this post up, re-post it, put it in your journal, and upload it on your website. Thanks!

"Lack of Class" actions

[Veteran]

Not specifically this case - but I would like to point out that "Class Action" lawsuits mainly benefit the lawyers who file them and basically no one else.

Here is how the scam works - One million plaintiffs each of whom gets say $10 - the lawyers pocket 15% or more of each judgment; so the lawyers take down a cool couple of million.

Very cute - if anyone but lawyers pulled a similar scam they would be in prison for fraud.

Small PS...

[BadlandZ]

Qwest (a western United States provider)

BTW, Qwest sucks bad, and is not a "wester US provider" for Cell service, but a "big provider in mid and southern Arizona" PERIOD. They are known outside of that area, but that is thier KEY hardcore stronghold for cell service.

So to say Qwest is any kind of big company is laughable, and only serves to prove you spent way to long in Southern AZ and need to travel more... (which isn't totally a bad thing, I grew up in Tucson, and loved it... it just shows you don't get out as much as you should).

:-)

Re:Small PS...

[Anonymous Coward]

umm.. Qwest is a huge company with a stranglehold on local phone service all across the western US and is in no way localized to Arizona. Their corporate HQ is in Denver, Colorado. Their wireless business is actually fairly new; most of their customers came from their purchase of US West (one of the baby bells) a few years back. Try doing just a little research next time before posting such drivel...

Re:Small PS...

[BadlandZ]

K, I guess I missed the Qwest bought out US West, and only heard of thier huge inroads to the southern AZ Cell market... That does explain a lot. So I'm off on that.

Is off as I was about that (and through bad information filtering back from friends in AZ) that STILL doesn't discount the fact that GSM and a single protocol is the way to go in the US, with companies buying time off towers rather than trying to build their own independant networks.

Re:imode: something to be said for monopoly

[JimBobJoe]

As far as I can tell this lossage is due precisely to the lack of any leverage that carriers have over handset makers in the US.

This is actually due to several other factors, beginning with cultural--the Japanese, and for that matter, Europeans, look at cellphones very differently from Americans. Studies have shown that Americans see cell phones for one thing, and that pretty much is talking on them--web and email features are much lower on their list of priorities (and Americans have not proven themselves interested in paying for that stuff.) Part of this is because of billing issues--cell phone use is charged differently here (outgoing is cheaper than in europe, but we pay for incoming which is not paid in europe--the person making the call pays for charge, whereas land line here is a flat rate. Flat rate landline makes for cheaper internet service, whereas I suspect that having per minute charges for internet makes it more likely for the consumer to use the cell phone to browse the net, since the cost is the same anyway.)

Then there is the issue of the cells themselves. Japan can upgrade its cell phone system much faster since the country is smaller land area wise and the population is much more dense--meaning that 3G could be rolled out very quickly since far fewer new towers needed to be erected. Europe is more or less the same--especially since all cell phone companies in Europe use the same cellular system.

Moving on past that, the American cell phone companies have a lot of say in how their phones are designed--not as much as NTT DoCoMo, who designs the phones themselves, but quite a lot nevertheless.

3G is coming to the US...albeit slowly. And what you will likely see is a pretty small rush for the technology.

A Brief History

[Anonymous Coward]

In the late 80's wireless carriers were hitting bandwidth limitation on their 800MHz analog systems, so they asked the FCC 1) more bandwidth, and 2) which digital technology that were available they should adopt.

For 1), FCC looked to the europeans, who were setting up their 1800MHZ GSM standards. But in the states, part of that spectrum is occupied by the military, so they chose the 1900MHz, which is close enough to help out handset designers.
For 2), FCC thought the US govt sanctioning an European standard wasn't a good idea, since ATT and others were already using TDMA (IS-136), which is more spectrum efficient (more calls/MHz) than GSM, and Qualcomm was promising even more spectrum efficiency with CDMA (IS-95), then still in development. So they told the wireless carries "you can decide on your own. The market will sort it out".

Now 15 years later, it turns out that CDMA really is more spectrum efficient, so the GSM consortium chose W-CDMA as it's 3G technology. But because of Qualcomm patents on CDMA and IS-95, they tried to avoid license fees when developing W-CDMA. Because of this, W-CDMA is incompatible with CDMA2000, the IS-95 compatible 3G standard.

So now we're back to 2 different standars, with no clear direction from the FCC except "the market will sort itself out".

And the confusion will go on for the another 15 years.

The US Gov is the ultimate ball dropper.

[AndyMcL]

I lived in Japan before and the cell phone service and phones there kick the US's butt!!!

It made me mad as an American that we were so lacking in the US. From what I have heard from friends in Europe, the US is 5 years or so behind in, I guess that you could say, mobile communications. That is a long time in technology years. The web (not the internet) was just beginning about 5-6 years ago.

To me the US government has to take the ultimate blame on this one. I am sure that all of the companies in most of the world did not say hey lets all use the same technologies so that we can make it easier and cheaper for customers. It was more than likely some companies and the governments around the world that set the standards that all of the service providers and vendors had to adhere to.

I have been mad about this one for about 6 years. BTW if you think that the cell phones that we have in the US now are small.... Japan had them 6 years ago. Back then all we had was the CRAPPY Motorola Big Grey Brick phones (people still thought they were cool to have them - LAME). We are still a generation or two behind everyone else. They make the new stuff for the home markets and then sometime come out with a version for the US of A. This pisses me off.

OK I will be a good boy and shut up now. I just do not like being in second place which where the US definitely is in this technology.

AndyMcL

Re:The US Gov is the ultimate ball dropper.

[kawaichan]

Ok, I am from Canada, wireless here is just as bad.

One of the main reason why Japan and other countries in the world today have better wireless technology is because of the fact that the landline is way too expensive

For example in Japan, you still have to pay by the minute for LOCAL call from landlines!

USA is too big and landlines are cheap, that's why it take a lot of incentives for the mass to get wireless.

That's my theory anyways.

Re:The US Gov is the ultimate ball dropper.

[Cato]

Local calls are only 'free' in the US if you make enough to cover the monthly local calling fee (at whatever rate would be charged). I don't make a lot of local calls in the UK since I got ADSL, and just use my mobile for most social/business calls, so the US 'free local calls' scheme would actually cost me money.

The rest of the world is actually *bigger* than the US (shock!) and GSM works just fine there...

TROLLING AND CRAPFLOODING FAQ VERSION 2

[Anonymous Coward]

This FAQ is designed to give tips on trolling on Slashdot, created in celebration of Blackout Week. It is dedicated to all hard-working trolls and crapflooders.

What are some good trolling tips?
Trolling is all about making people think you care, and so winding up those who care for real. Think of it like shooting a deer in front of an anti-hunt protester, or eating a Big Mac in front of a vegan. Here are some ideas for making your troll work:

1. To start off, make sure your post gets noticed -- log in, post early (after 50 +1 comments have been posted to an article, forget it), and make sure to use your +1 bonus.
2. Ensure your posting history doesn't show a history of dubious posts. Some advise (incorrectly) to stagger your trolls, but this is in fact time wasting and only helps Slashdot in the long run. If you have a doubt, just create a new account, or even post anonymous -- an effective troll, posted early enough, will gain a +1 quickly.
3. Learn from the marketing droids -- a mixture of truth and lies leaves the potential client without a clue as to which is which. Geeks smell pure bullshit, because it reminds them of their bedroom smell (see also "karma whoring" below).
4. Follow up. Keep a window open on your troll, and reload to see if people bite. Perhaps post an AC reply agreeing or disagreeing with your own post. Reply to later posts referring to your earlier post to back up your point.
5. If you get a dreaded (-1, Troll), don't be ashamed to post the well-known, "Mods on Crack!" rant. Explain, rationally, and not as yourself why you agree with the original post, and why it's a fair point.

How do I crapflood?
A crapflood is an (intentionally) content-free post. Here are some suggestions for the source of your crapflood -- remember to take care with repetition, odd characters, or repetition, to get past the lameness filter:

1. your local dictionary file, e.g. /usr/share/dict/words on BSDs
2. your local real names file, e.g. /usr/share/dict/propernames on BSDs
3. a copy-paste part of a web page (for extra amusement, copy-paste from Slashdot itself)
4. a UU-encoded newsgroup file
5. some output from a lorem ipsum generator
6. examples of your latest spams, particularly those in Korean
7. allowing your cat to walk across the keyboard for a few minutes.

How do I widen pages?
A method is known and delivered to us by the beautiful Klerck which currently works in Internet Explorer alone. This will therefore ruin the browsing experience of by far the majority of Slashdot readers. Start with the text:

http://www.eveeieyhfgfcdoosammgwsnboivvbsczxlzgabc /

then repeat /ooieiabdcdjsvbkeldfogjhiyeeejkagclmieooionoepdk /

several times, remembering to avoid the compression filter trap by using different random characters.

How do I karma whore?
"Karma whoring" is the practice of gaining moderation points for their own sake. It is particularly useful in techniques for defeating the moderation system. Some tips for karma whoring are:

1. If the site containing the actual article is not on a fast server (i.e. is not a "big site"), re-post the article with subject, "the article -- in case the site gets slashdotted". Make sure this comes as early as possible in the list of comments, to avoid the dreaded (-1, Redundant).
2. If any article pops up on Microsoft, write a stock two paragraphs explaining why Microsoft is immoral, and why the event described cannot happen with Free Software. I shall not supply text, because tests have shown that moderators are not completely stupid, and can identify duplicate posts (this is actually helpful in defeating the moderation system, see below).
3. For any article discussing a particular company, state that you worked there, and offer your "inside knowledge". Note that geeks do visit Slashdot, so do not fall into the trap of being too obvious a fraud -- a mistake made by such amateur trolls as PhysicsGenius, who must now suffer a life of instant down-modding.

How do I defeat the moderation system?
The moderation system is far from flawless. Here are some ways to devalue it:

1. If you have moderator points, for goodness sake abuse them! How about moderating up a First Post, a crapflood, or best of all, this very FAQ? It would be a crime to allow such an easily abused system to work.
2. Copy the text of another person's post, and paste it as a reply to an earlier post. Most people read oldest messages first, so they will consider yours to be the first message, and the later message to be "redundant". This is great for annoying karma whores.

How do I defeat authentication?
Don't. The FBI will arrest you for being a terrorist. Instead, make an authoritative nick like CmdrTaco (editor). The majority of people are easily fooled, and will be likely to take notice of and respond to your post, and even moderate it up. Think of it like Lunix Turvalds walking into the room -- people listen to what he has to say, and don't dare disagree.

How do I defeat the goatse link early warning system?
Simple -- use one of the many foolishly implemented redirector URLs hosted on well-known sites. Here's an innocuous recent example which pretends to link to the highly informative about.com, but in fact links to a site of the popular 90's lesbian band The Spice Girls: Informative link which will get me karma

What are some excellent sites to sneakily link to?
Mostly, you should link to gay porn. If you are reading this FAQ, you already know the URLs, so I don't need to supply them, except to say that it's almost an initiation ceremony in Slashdot trolling to link to goatse.

Administrativa

How do I justify the existence of this FAQ?
Slashdot is full of people who support unlicensed weapons ownership and dissemination of bomb creation documents -- in short, they support freedom, even when that freedom could cause harm. This document should be considered as that very freedom in action. Indeed, to disparage or moderate down this document would be un-American, and the FBI are likely to arrest you for being a terrorist.

How do I add to or change this FAQ?
Simply re-post the FAQ on Slashdot, adding an appropriate question, and incrementing the version number by 1. Before doing so, please try to ensure you have the latest version, and remember to keep this post W3C compliant!

How else can I help with the Troll and Crapflooding Cause?
Moderate this post up, re-post it, put it in your journal, and upload it on your website. Thanks!

Re:I can't understand...PAL,SECAM

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you buy a new european TV and/or VCR chances are good that it will playback PAL, SECAM and even NTSC.

Unlike TV and VCR's in the US that will only accept NTSC.

Now, who is more compatible?

NTSC - Never The Same Color

CDMA is *good,* noncompetition is bad.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sprint actually obeys one of the CDMA standards. However, they were the only carrier offering CDMA for a while, and they do use the GHz range while most TDMA/GSM services stuck to the UHF of conventional cellular.

There are *serious* advantages to CDMA over TDMA, especially in terms of the number of concurrent handsets that can be served off a single cell. Yes, the service was still sucking, but at least Sprint did it by erecting far fewer towers- some people consider those things a blight on the landscape, after all.

The other problem with older GSM was the weak encryption/authentication used. There's now a new GSM standard that uses CDMA (remember, CDMA and TDMA are channel-division/modulation techniques, only 'physical layer' issues) but combines it with SIM cards (a good idea) and a possibly-hardened update to the old GSM crypto.

Personally, I'm not too concerned about the crypto from the privacy perspective (law enforcement can wiretap anyway), but I do like the idea of making it as hard as possible for someone to monitor the airwaves and clone my phone, racking up charges on my bill.

Anyhow, the new CDMA-based GSM standard would be great, if the authentication/crypto has been worked out, and the SIM cards are a definite advantage. However, the older GSM standard was wasteful of limited spectrum resources (by basically requiring TDMA), *and* wasteful of power at the handset end. (Again, there's a reason why GSM Nokias use big chunky batteries vs. my old Samsung CDMA phone- and the Samsung could talk about twice as long as a comparable GSM phone.)

So, I am definitely for SIM-card style carrier switching, but that doesn't mean we should throw the CDMA baby out with the bathwater, as Europe did. (Qualcomm's old CDMA standard was invented for the US market, and didn't include the same SIM card access mechanisms.. Europeans wanted SIM cards, so they went for GSM and lost all the other advantages of CDMA)... It would be pretty trivial to work a physical-token-based authentication mechanism into CDMA equipment, and AFAIK, both CDMA2000 and the new GSM standard (similar to CDMA2000 but for crappier crypto) support it.

Verizon tried to rip me off $600

[mesozoic]

I ordered a phone online in September. They charged me $100 for the phone, and a $500 security deposit. I hastily called them up and told them to cancel the order, and bought service at a store in town. Two weeks later I got a phone in the mail. I packaged it up, sent it back, called them, said I didn't want it, and that I wanted my money back.

Months later, I kept getting bills saying I had $600 in credit, but never a check. At least twice I called up customer service and was told that they would put in a request to have the money sent to me, but I never received anything. I didn't get the process to actually move until this past week, when I had to speak to a sales manager just to get my money back.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this? The persistence of it leads me to believe that this is a somewhat under-the-table policy, not just a fluke. "If the customer doesn't want to fight for their money, then we'll just keep it."

Antitrust

[Lionel Hutts]

I can't see any possible way for this suit to succeed on its merits. The courts have held, again and again, that a "unilateral refusal to deal" is not a violation of the antitrust laws. As far as I can tell, there isn't any allegation the companies conspire not to use each others' phones -- and, of course, there would be no reason for them to conspire _not_ to cooperate.

But, like most class actions, this suit can succeed without the slightest hint of merit, since the real point is just to extract fees for lawyers by making it too expensive for the defendants.

Re:Antitrust

[orblee]

Depends on your point of view. We are more advanced re: mobile phone usage in the UK and although pay as you go mobiles are often tied to one or two providers, contract users are free to stick whatever SIM card they want in the phone and so use any provider. Why shouldn't the US have the same privelege?

Thank God

[Anonymous Coward]

As a developer for a wireless handset maker, I understand the pain of the carriers. We as a manufacturer want to provide a low cost, simple to use phone, devoid of assanine features that not even we hardcore phone user / developers use. Each carrier has a different set of requirements getting as picky as what text/icon set we use, or what size/shape charger jack we offer. The cost of development is very high because of this, and often we cannot sell the same phone to multiple carriers, increasing our cost. I hope the proliferation of GSM (the card-phones, Euro-style) changes this, as the phones can be sold separatly easily. Oh, and the carriers are making a fortune on the one/two-year contract crap. Once they've paid for the phone they get to keep charging you the subsidy rate for service, even though your phone is paid for!

Have you noticed people pay $60-250 for a home portable phone, yet cell phones have to go for less than $50 to the public? The phones themselves are actually quite expensive to manufacture, and the handset makers are making razor thin margins. We could drop the cost of the phones significantly if we were allowed to provide only the features users cared about.

wow... USA in the mobile dark ages.

[Paul Jakma]

i'm amazed, usually here in Europe we have to sneer and hide our jealously behind sarcastic comments in all things communication related, eg you have always on DSL, we're still waiting (well, DSL is /starting/ to become more a bit widespread in some EU countries), you have 155Mbit/s OC-3c's while for the same price we get E2's (4Mbit/s), you have free local calls - we're still getting screwed by former state monopolies who still control the local loop and do their damnedest to make it difficult for the competition to get access... etc..

But at last we europeans (and those asians even more so) have a chance to cast a gloating data communications eye across the water: the USA is still in the mobile phone dark ages!

Over here, you can buy any phone and have it work anywhere in europe with any carrier. It's all GSM here. (well, actually there are pre-paid phones, and bill phones) and I can go on holiday to a little greek island and my phone could roam on either of the 2 greek carriers that covered the island. I go to london, get off the airplane and my phone has a choice of a whole bunch of networks!

My dad travels a lot, so to save on roaming costs he bought a pre-paid GSM SIM card in each country that he regularly spends time in. So when he gets off the plane, he just puts whichever SIM card into his phone according to which carrier has the best rates. the only disadvantage is that to reach him i might have to dial 4 numbers (Dad, Dad-FR, Dad-NL, Dad-ES). But hey..

Also, do people in the states have to pay full price on the handsets? At least here in EU, most of the cost of handsets is subsidised by the carriers (low-end nokia's are about EUR30 to EUR70 depending on the carrier's deal - used to be they gave them out free, but not anymore)

anyway.. GSM - we pee in your general direction! hu hu..

Re:wow... USA in the mobile dark ages.

[demaria]

"Also, do people in the states have to pay full price on the handsets?"

Yes. No. It depends on the special of the day, sometimes the phones are free. Most of the ones I've seen cost $40-$109 USD (either before or after rebate). I paid $50 for mine. US residents are also more concerned about roaming from state to state than country to country. Canada is about the only international roaming I care about. :-) I'm betting that most (keyword most) US citizens travel international for holiday, and don't want to even think about answering the bothersome phones.

Re:wow... USA in the mobile dark ages.

[Anonymous Coward]

And the fact that Europeans don't have to pay $40/mo to get a freaking cell phone! Don't get charged when someone calls YOU! etc.

Re:wow... USA in the mobile dark ages.

[Anonymous Coward]

Duh! ...the US has GSM as well, just at 1900Mhz. Any European with a GSM tri-band phone can easilly roam in the US and vice-versa.

...and you can handsets for free, the samsumg N105 dual-band 1900/900Mhz is also free on voicestream.

Re:wow... USA in the mobile dark ages.

[Paul Jakma]

well the EU equivalent of traveling from "state to state" in the US is traveling from "country to country". so we're equal on that count. :)

point is, here in europe (and presumably Asia too) roaming is a complete non-issue: it just works. If there is an issue it is of cost. the only new thing is 1.8GHz GSM, but all the 1.8GHz GSM phones are dual-band and can roam between both old 900MHz GSM and newer 1.8GHz GSM networks.

How many different mobile phone standards/types of networks are in use in the states at the moment? Dont you guys still have some analogue mobile networks in operation? Do you have quinta-band phones in the states for the true "hardcore roamer"? :)

--paul 'European making the most of a once in a lifetime gloating opportunity' j

Re:wow... USA in the mobile dark ages.

[demaria]

"How many different mobile phone standards/types of networks are in use in the states at the moment? Dont you guys still have some analogue mobile networks in operation?"

Too many. There is still analog service, but the drive is to only digital. Digital is 'better' because your calls choppy up instead of static out. :-) But pretty much here you subscribe to one provider, get their cell phone, and not care about roaming protocol problems.

Yeah, it's funky here in the US. But then again, US needs are slighty different. We have cheap, reliable, and widespread landline services. Regloat. :-) I wonder if it costs less for me to call Europe than Europe to call me.

Then again there is always the stance that anything and everything relating to telecommunication requires confusolopies and inferior customer service.

Re:wow... USA in the mobile dark ages.

[Paul Jakma]

I wonder if it costs less for me to call Europe than Europe to call me.

the story is even sadder, it is perhaps a quarter of the price. in fact there are "call-back" companies who make use of US cheap rates to offer cheaper international /intra-european/ calls.

way it works is:

- you dial call-back company (US number), type in pin number and hang up.

- call-back company rings you, you type in the number you want to call and the call-back company rings that number and connects you to them.

obviously, for this to work out, it means that *2* US-originated transatlantic calls are /cheaper/ than a single international call /within/ europe.

sad isnt it?

Re:wow... USA in the mobile dark ages.

[Anonymous Coward]

But at last we europeans (and those asians even more so) have a chance to cast a gloating data communications eye across the water: the USA is still in the mobile phone dark ages!

Such as here in HK. You carry your number with you from network to network (for a nominal fee - something like US$5), and your phone too, without restriction. I have friends who routinely change networks by the month to take advantage of new special deals since a lot of plans don't have a minimum contract periods. It's fully transparent if you're happy to keep track of all the new contracts.

You can even choose between GSM, CDMA, and now GPRS all with pretty much equal coverage and ease.

Re:wow... USA in the mobile dark ages.

[fxdirect]

Also, do people in the states have to pay full price on the handsets?

While right now, there are significant discounts on handsets, sometimes making them free, it looks like in the future those free phones will be a thing of the past.

Re:wow... USA in the mobile dark ages.

[XO]

*thinks* Here's the big carriers:

AT&T: 1900MHz TDMA
Cingular: 800MHz AMPS (analog)/800MHz TDMA
VoiceStream: 800MHz GSM - I'm so unfamiliar with VoiceStream, but i am a friend with one of their regional sales managers.. and he says they have three different types of GSM networks? They might be 1800 or 1900 MHz GSM

Sprint PCS: 1900MHz CDMA
Verizon: 800MHz AMPS(analog), 800MHz CDMA, 1900MHz CDMA (depending on locations)

I have not seen any phones that were more than triple-mode: 1900MHz/800MHz CDMA digital/800Mhz analog. Anyone know of any phones that talk multiple protocols, besides one brand of digital/analog?

Not that it would be cheap, I'm sure that AT&T would charge Verizon customers an arm, a leg, and their right buttock to roam on their network. lol

Re:wow... USA in the mobile dark ages.

[XO]

OMFG, my Sprint people are going to get a serious laugh out of this (the two that I talk to on a regular basis know their network is a piece of crap) ... The article omits that it's talking about 3G CDMA service, and says:

Verizon Wireless and Sprint PCS have built a telephone network using a competing standard known as Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA (news - web sites)). Verizon has launched its network and Sprint PCS is expected to turn on its network this summer, but neither company has yet introduced new phones. The companies would not say if their new phones will cost more.

---
By the way, Sprint's customer base is proof positive thaet people will spend $100+ for a phone -- they hardly ever have phones for less than $100, and most people buy phones for $150-$200. And Sprint is still subsidizing the cost of the phones .. at least, they tell us they are. lol.

Carter Phone

[flollywebfrog]

according to http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:zKZIOZMN65gC: www.cs.uiuc.edu/whatsnew/newsletter/winter97/crock ett.html+carter+phone+Bell+lawsuit&hl=en

After earning his PhD, it was back to IBM where Crockett worked on silicon compilers
and computer simulation techniques for designing computers. Then they wanted him to work
on communications again. "It was interesting," he said of IBM's first modem
development. "They didn't bother to patent it; they didn't see any future in
it." Because of the Carter phone case, a famous lawsuit in the mid-1950s that
prohibited anyone from physically connecting to AT&T phone lines, people had to
connect using their telephone's receiver. "Bell Labs said it couldn't be done,"
said Crockett, "but the acoustic coupled modem worked very well. IBM produced 25,000
for internal use to communicate with timeshare computers." The modem was nicknamed
Crockett Box, and it formed the basis for Livermore Data Systems and many of the other
modem manufacturers to follow.

What we all have in common

[Element5]

Well it's good to know that we all have this in common: getting shafted by phone companies. In my area in Canada there's probably at least 5 or 6 different providers, each have phones that are common across all of them. Of course owning one of those phones still forces you to go with the company you originally bought it from.

Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

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Competing standards and SMS

[rdarden]

Maybe the US are just technologically inept? Or more likely, it's just the effect of companies too comfortable with their power.

Certainly not a matter of being technologically inept. (stop reading now if I'm repeating what's already been said - I was reading at +3) The US had a rather kick-ass analog cell network(s) in place before GSM took off. Since then each carrier had to make decisions on future technology based on things like their target market, available spectrum, and their network infrastructure. The GSM/TDMA vs. CDMA struggle here is largely due to the fact that they use different network protocols to link the cell sites to the higher network layers. I imagine this was an issue when 2G digital standards first came about, but I'm sure it's the reason AT&T's upgrade path was from TDMA to GSM and not TDMA to CDMA. So we'll (the US) have competing standards for quite some time yet.. and your small (as in non-multi-protocol) phone won't work everywhere.

Here, we can send SMS from any carrier to any other carrier, even from GSM network to CDMA ones.

I believe that Motorola has a turnkey "SMS gateway" product ready for service providers to buy.. if/when it's financially beneficial for them to do.

Re:Competing standards and SMS

[Vegeta99]

AT&T plans to go to GSM because EDGE and WCDMA are 3G upgrades from GSM. Also, I can send an SMS to any provider so far, including Cingular and VoiceStream. Just enter the number, and they get the SMS with a return addy of my phone's text message email addy, so they can reply.

Cingular to Voicestream

[fordgj]

I was able to get Cingular to give me the code to disable the SIM-lock on my Nokia 8290. I called up and they passed me up to another support level and I talked to them and they didn't hassle me at all. They then e-mailed me the code (3 steps, very easy) and I unlocked it. I then walked into a store that sold Voicestream and the salesgirl let me put her SIM card in my phone and we were able to then make a call with the Voicestream network.

Europes lockdown

[molywi]

In europe, the carriers all use gsm networks either 900 or 1800 mhz. This allows anybody to purchase a phone and not know what carrier they will be choosing but they can also buy a phone directly from providers (usually at a chepaer price) and that phone is LOCKED - will only work on one provider. This is almost the same as in America.. except for the fact that in America, the phones apporved and sold by carriers are models 1-5 years old - just look at the NOKIA 5160 still being sold!

Re:Europes lockdown

[steve_l]

its worse than that; the legacy nokia phones (I have a 5185 via verizon prepay) are still much better than the competition -I know, I had a motorola 3-band for a year with awful coverage and battery life.

At least this phone does SMS to email bridging, so you can email to someone elses handset, even if cross carrier texting is still out

The topic here is not completely true, but valid

[Anonymous Coward]

The phone manufacturers generally make GSM based phones before they make phones for the US providers, as these phones are sold world wide, where almost every country but the US uses the same std. of GSM. So its financially sound for them to create the phones for the largest market share.

What the US non GSM based providers do, is look at the phones as they are released, and strike up a deal with said manufacturer to create a phone that they can use on their network, with whatever "special" additional functions they want in the phone that they offer on their services. The reason you cannot use a sprint phone on ATT is cos PCS is different from Analogue or digital.

I'm no fan of this type of crap, if all the providers used sim cards (which they could have easily done with ALL phones), I would not have 4 phones lieing in my drawer.

I recently dropped ATT, which has provided me with great service, cos they are yet to offer GSM on the east coast. I moved to Voicestream, they don't lock out any phones, and they don't even tell you to use only their selection of phones, if its GSM 1900, you can use it. If ATT ever gets GSM out on the east coast, and its on the STD GSM 1900, and they don't start pulling this proprietary crap, I'll change back.

American companies have this tendency to not want to share, voicestream included, which is why I can't send SMS messages out of the voicestream network without changing my message center number to the message center of the telco I want to send messages to (which works, but then youc annot recieve voicestream SMS's, and said telco may get cranky with you hopping onto their network uninvited). Thats just one point, there are many, granted you can pretty much send a text message from any phoen to another using phone_no@provider.tld but thats not the same as sending it to just phone_number, which is much more convenient. If US companies got off their fat lazy asses, and worked togethor on anything for the better of their consumers, we would not have this bull. The main reason for non interoperability, as most consumers would rather stick with their crappy service, then go out and buy a new phone and get new service, as that can get costly (my nokia 8260 cost me $450 for ATT as they had no specials at the time).

Anyways, enough rambling

In Australia....it doesn't exist

[MantiX]

I have a few associates who have been in the US over the past few years, plus other people I know from the US. All have the same complaints you guys talk about, yet over here we simply look and wonder....HOW?

Over here, we can buy any handset we want, plug it into any network we want, and thats the end of the story. Handsets are subsidised by the committment to a contract you purchase, usually now for 24 months, at a rate of something like $50 AU.

What your carriers are up to simply sounds like anti competitive bullshit.

confused article?

[Anonymous Coward]

The description of the SID seems wrong. SID = System ID. It's different for each market that you're in...

The SOC (System Operator Code) is what's coded into the phone and won't change.. that's what keeps a phone you bought from Verizon from operating on (whoever else)...not the SID.

Regardless of the SID programmed into your phone, your phone will be able to communicate with other carriers. It's called "Roaming."

Sounds like a fairly whiny lawsuit to me.

Re:confused article?

[MindStalker]

Sure you can roam, but what if you wanted to activate the phone with that local carrier, they wouldn't allow you to, even though they can handle your signal, its detectable on their network as someone elses, and therefor can only roam.

Re:confused article?

[coldnight]

Here's one of the rubs - Verizon stores offer the
Kyocera QCP 6035 ( Black and white Palm Phone) for $399.99. On thier website, its $249.99. Sprint sells the same phone on thier plan for $100 ( give or take ). But you have to have the 'backroom' programming guide or a particular web link to move one phone to the other network. Oh and you have to take the stickers off too or they'll bitch... In fact, bringing them a phone is generally frowned upon; they want to sell you a new phone.

Sprint's not proprietary (nor 'national')

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, Sprint uses CDMA 1900. It's not secret at all.

In fact, our state (which is *NOT PART* of Sprint's "nationwide network") has our very own CDMA provider - Alaska DigiTel. They aren't affiliated with Sprint. I suspect there may be similar carriers in other small markets not important to Sprint.

Nextel

[MOSFET]

Nextel could be percieved as the worst provider with regard to proprietary phones... only Motorola phones, and their phones will not work on anyone else's network.

However, with regard to compatibility, every feature available on the network and phones works.

On some combinations of phone/network with other providers, you wind up with features that don't work or don't work properly, such as wireless web/WAP or text messaging. On some providers you may also be limited to getting only one particular type of phone to be able to use services such as SMS.

Just a side note ... have you noticed that the most feature-rich phones (that is, those which have wireless web/text capability, ability to install colored faceplates, etc...) seem to have the WORST antennas? I'm a ham radio operator, so I know the value of having a proper antenna... and that most of the antennas used on newer phones are a complete joke. In most cases, all you get is a small rubber-coated coil about 1/8 wavelength long. On some phones, the antenna doesn't even protrude over the top of the phone, so the signal from it is being absorbed in your hand. That cute little lack of an antenna could easily mean the difference between being able to get through or being stuck when you have to call for a tow after your tire blows on the highway. How I miss the archaic old analog handsets that had an SMA jack on top, allowing the addition of a *real* antenna...

SMS

[saihung]

I use Voicestream, and I can SMS my friend that uses AT&T without any problems. I've never had that work with any other carrier though.

Re:The token "free" market response(the outback?!)

[Anonymous Coward]

Curiously my Nokia has a hard time picking up in my office, about 2km from Parliament House. I get much better reception out in the bush. And if you believe Telstra and Vodafone you can get TDMA (as opposed to GSM) anywhere in Australia - a landmass roughly the same as the continental U.S. and with half the population of California. Not that I know anyone with TDMA, GSM works fine anywhere there are paved roads - except for my office. The dig at the Australian bush was pretty unfair. Now a dig at Canberra - that would be fair.

This is a complex issue.

[ImaLamer]

Before there was CDMA, the days when there was cellular ONLY the phone was "Free!!" - ...but there was a contract.

The thing was the phone cost nothing, a penny or maybe $100 in the case of the "cooler" ones. The phone was being paid for by the cellular provider because you were signing a contract.

But what was the contract for? In many cases the contract wasn't for service at all. Sure, it's nice to have a steady customer for years - but you just gave some idiot a $400 phone for free so you need to collect on that.

It would be like the cable company giving out Tivo's for "Only $20!!". They may disable some features and not let you move with it but you would have to sign something right?

I'm guessing that there is a loophole that let's them not "unlock" the phones. They are taking a loss on every phone sold.

Who believes the phones with wireless web and vibrating features cost $39.95? I don't.

What part of New York, NY didn't you understand?

[Kaki Nix Sain]

I'm out in the "boondocks" (compared to in The City) of super-dense New Jersey, and I've been having dropped calls like mad on sprintpcs for the past two months.

Carrier folly in the Philippines

[hacker wannabe]

Over here, the carriers have tried to do the same thing:

1. Telco pays handset distributor to 'kit' (lock) phone. Going rate is $20/unit. The idea being to subsidize the anonymous prepaid subscriptions that are the norm here.

2. Distributor sells to another distributor for cost less kitting fee plus some profit.

3. New distributor unlocks phone and sells to Indonesia or Malaysia, where a new distributor often repeats the process.

So each carrier likely subsideses each phone more than once. Someday they will realize that relying on subsidy and non-circumvention doesn't work in the third world...

Glad I do not own a cell phone

[Billly Gates]

After hearing nothing but horror stories and and now reading this article I will probably never buy one.

What real advantages do I get? Oh, thats right. My boss can call me anytime he wants. Oh boy. Sign me up. Or have my annoying parents or friends call. I prefer screening with my answering machine at my convience thank you. There really is no advantage of a cell phone except that the office follows you where ever you go. And do not be decieved that carrying a cell phone somehow increases your job performance and efficiancy. It just doesn't. Can you think of anyone who has got promoted because his cell phone made him or her like %40 more productive? Its all bs. If I need to call someone, I can just find a pay phone. A standard old fashioned rj-11 line meets my needs just fine. Infact my father is an executive and even he never uses one. I asked him why because he is a VP. He answered when I leave my office, I want my office to stay where it is thank you.

Also I give a message to the phone companies that I will not be jerked around. Give me cell phone access for $20 a month( same as regular phone line) or I wont switch. I find a simularity between the MPAA and megaTeleco trying to persuade everyone that the world will leave without you if you do not buy there latest products. I just laugh at them and count the money saved in my wallet.

Re:Glad I do not own a cell phone

[Anonymous Coward]

That's ok in the US - there are payphones everywhere, they are cheap and they usually work. If you regularly need to use a payphone here in Ireland you will find that (1) you get ripped off with high charges (2) about 50% of them seem to not work at any time (3) if you're outside a city centre area it's almost impossible to find one, and they are getting more scarce all the time.

Add this to the fact that it can take months to get a landline installed and a cell phone becomes the only sensible option.

Also : don't want your boss calling you? Handy tip: don't give him/her your number. Ditto for parents etc.

Re:Glad I do not own a cell phone

[MikeBabcock]

My phone allows for semi-distinct ring on a caller-type basis. Business calls have one ring (or none) and personal calls another, on the basis of the phone directory I populate.

Very useful.

Re:Glad I do not own a cell phone

[bluGill]

My cell phone has callerID, no extra charge, along with voice mail. Not quite as good as a an answering machine for call screening, but still good enough. When my cell phone rings I'm perfectly free to not answer it. You would not belive how shoked people are when my phone rings and I just keep on talking, letting it ring!

My cell phone is a convience, and I do not let it rule my life. And considering the services I get, it is cheaper than a land line too!

I don't see why any single person in todays world would have a land line, and I'm starting to think families will soon be the same way.

Re:Glad I do not own a cell phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, there are far fewer payphones in the USA then there used to be. Now that a significantly large portion of the population has cell phones, payphones are becoming less and less profitable for the phone companies. You can still find a payphone, but you have to look harder to find one.

Re:Antitrust-audiance

[Anonymous Coward]

"and, of course, there would be no reason for them to conspire _not_ to cooperate."

Two words
Captive audience. All the reason one needs to not cooperate with a competitor.

Re:This is a complex issue.-Not Really.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well you would have a point if I hadn't PURCHASED a phone AND signed a contract with a carrier.
A lot of other carriers have a similiar arrangement.

Re:Nextel-accessories

[Anonymous Coward]

There ARE accessories that couple a "real" antenna to those types of phones.

Seems we have a good deal in the UK

[johnburton]

In the UK most phones that you can buy are locked to the only work on the network which they are first sold for use on and can only be used on that network.

But by either paying about £30 to the phone company, or about half that to an "unlocker" you can easiliy get your phone unlocked to work on any network. And the phone companies seem to allow any phone to work on their network. After all, its in their interest to try to prevent you from using your phone on other networks, but in their interest that you use your unlock phone on *their* network rather than another one.

And the cost of calls seem to be considerably less here that in the USA from what I've seen

Re:Seems we have a good deal in the UK

[Arricc]

If you are on a monthly contract in the UK, your initial handset cost is vastly reduced by the carrier from the price you would have to pay for an unlocked model.

The downside of this is if you want a replacement handset and want to continue your contract, it can be quite expensive as only the initial handset is cheaper. Its frequently easier and cheaper to move to another network, especially if you want to keep the same number.

If you want to move network, the carrier will supply you with a code to give to your new provider for perhaps a small fee - this used to be a huge problem but has been made really easy recently.

Re:Seems we have a good deal in the UK

[johnburton]

And it's also possible to keep your telephone number while moving from one network to another. At least in theory. How easy it is in practise I don't know,

Re:Seems we have a good deal in the UK

[unclefscker]

Number porting in the UK used to be horrific (often several months of waiting). They've changed the system recently and I ported my number from Cellnet to Orange within the week. Costs 25 pounds, but worth it to avoid telling everyone a new number.

bigger antitrust issue

[cdf12345]

2 year contracts, and whatnot.

I swear there was a meeting of the wireless providers and each took a section of the country and decided to not compete with each other.

in europe, you have the choice of what provider to use each call you make. That should be the case here too.

Incorrect.

[anonymous cupboard]

You miss out a very important middle layer, the contract telephone that is sold at a heavily subsidised price by the network, but is sold with a two year contract with a far from minimal monthly price.

These phones usually have no SIM-lock, so SIMs from other providers can be used without problems, which is ideal if you travel somewhere on a regular basis and have a second SIM for that country.

The other system whish the original story was about is to allow visitors to roam, but to forbid foreign handsets from using local SIMs, I believe Thailand does this.

I'm shocked

[Anonymous Coward]

Australia:

• Free phones untl recently
• You can swap carriers and take your number and phone with you (some of them offer deals to BYO phone!)
• Pre-paid or Contract (contracts out of fashion now
• and.. with most carriers: not bad coverage in most of populated AU (coverage being extended all the time).

• Get off your collective asses America!

Are you a libertarian or what?

[Anonymous Coward]

These companies are obviously doing this simply because they CAN.

The free market is there to serve everyone

[Anonymous Coward]

When intervention positively impacts the welbeing of most, at the cost of a little profit for the few so be it. The government giveth and the government taketh away, without the FCC they'd have no spectrum and no protection of it at all.

When did capitalism start trumping democracy?

GSM in Ireland

[Evil Al]

For what it's worth, in Ireland the three GSM operators have started SIM-locking their phones. This does make a certain amount of sense, since the phonese are generally highly subsidizied.

BUT if you have a SIM-free phone, any operator's SIM will work in it.

Also, they generally agree to un-SIM-lock the phone after a certain period (e.g. a year) or if you pay a small charge (50 euros).

Re:imode: something to be said for monopoly

[jratcliffe]

Yeah, the gizmos are cool, but the service quality is awful. I literally get dropped 25-30% of the time when using my imode phone in Tokyo, vs. ~5% of the time in the US.

Wow, how wrong can they possibly be?

[neile]

If phoneboy's summary is correct, this lawsuit is a joke. Let's look at each piece separately:

The carriers basically dictate required features to handset manufacturers.

I've seen these requirements, and they don't generally dictate anything other than what the GSM standards require. It's a way to ensure that all the phones on the network have the same set of features for the customer. Take Orange for example, a major operator in the U.K. They require 2-line support on all their phones, so they can offer phones with 2-lines to all their customers. This is a customer win, and is a key reason to pick Orange over someone else in the U.K.

Phones are tied to specific carriers and cannot be moved between carriers.

Absolutely! No question! And they should be! That lovely little Nokia 8290 you just got was likely subsidised to the tune of $100-$150 by your new operator. If the operator wants any chance of getting their money back for that subsidy, they have to prevent you from getting a cheap phone from them and then grabbing a SIM from another operator.

Most operators will gladly unlock your phone for you so you can use it on another network, especially in Europe. Just call them up and ask. They might charge you ~$50, but that's still less than their subsidy. Even Voicestream in the US will do this for free if you ask them, I've had it done.

Carriers refuse to allow handsets on their network they didn't approve.

This is flat out wrong. I've been using tri-band phones that I purchase in Europe over in the U.S. for years with my basic Voicestream SIM. In fact, I've never purchased a phone from Voicestream. Cingular does this as well. AT&T currently doesn't sell SIM-only packages, but they are going to. (Keep in mind they *just* started GSM service, and are still trying to get everything sorted out).

Manufacturers thus cannot sell handsets that aren't approved by carriers because carriers will not allow them to be used.

True, you cannot sell a handset *to an operator* that the operator hasn't approved for sale on their network. This is because the operator is responsible for all the support calls, replacement, and management of the phones on their network. Would you buy 1,000,000 phones from a company if it hasn't passed your quality assurance tests? Heck no!

If your phone fails these tests then it just means that you can't sell your phone to the operator directly and have to make it available through other channels. But (and again, if I've seen these tests) if you can't pass the tests then something is *seriously* wrong with your phone.

While it hasn't hit the U.S. yet, there are companies in Europe that make a killing selling phones that are not tied to a specific operator. Carphone Warehouse is a great example from the U.K., and you can bet that now that the U.S. has woken up to cellular it won't be too long before the same types of companies are available here.

All of this rises costs for the consumer, making it difficult and more expensive to switch carriers, and unfairly restrains trade for both handsets and cellular services.

This is the statement that shocked me the most. Have you *looked* at cellphone pricing and plans lately? My newspaper is constantly filled with offers that include 1, 2, or even 4 phones for *free*, with tons of minues included. For $29.99 a month I can get a really nice phone and more airtime than I can possibly use in a month.

If the operators *couldn't* lock their phones to their network to guarantee they'll make back their subsidy, do you actually think the prices will go *down*?

Re:Wow, how wrong can they possibly be?

[phoneboy]

A few responses to the above:

1. Voicestream is probably one of the more liberal companies with regards to many of these points, including providing unlock codes for their phones after being a customer for three months. I've never used any of the Voicestream-branded phones with my Voicestream service.

2. GSM phones in general are more versatile because the technology generally allows for easier interoperability/portability. This same technology is going to allow Cingular and Voicestream to share spectrum and towers in CA/NV/NY.

3. There are certainly "cheap" phones to be had out there. In order to get the "free" or even "subsidized" phones, you have to sign a one (or more) year service agreement or pay a hefty termination fee. Okay, they have to make their money back on the phone, but what if I find out two or three months into my contract that their service won't meet my needs? That's just money down the tubes. Note that these contracts apply even if you already have a compatible phone, which is something I don't understand.

4. Technology issues aside, why can't I buy a phone once and use it with any service provider? We know it's technically possible to make a phone that has GSM, TDMA, CDMA, and AMPS all in one unit. What is preventing Nokia or any other company from making that kind of a phone? Quite simply, no carrier would approve such a phone. Why? It would be too easy for someone to switch carriers. It's the same reason they're dragging their feet on number portability.

-- PhoneBoy

Re:Wow, how wrong can they possibly be?

[neile]

I'll take a stab at answering #4:

There's no reason for any phone company to make the investement in making such a phone. The U.S. is the only large market with such a bizarro set of divergent standards. I highly doubt there are enough customers in the U.S. who:

- Know there are multiple network standards
- Who roam enough that multiple network support would be necessary
- Would be willing to buy the phyiscally huge phone that would be required (look at the Nokia GSM/TDMA combo available from AT&T)
- Would be willing to pay for a phone that expensive (license fees to GSM, Qualcomm, etc, for networks I'll likely never use)

Before you suggest that it's because the operators don't want people to jump networks, perhaps one should first look and see whether end users would actually make use of the product :)

Re:Antitrust-audiance

[Lionel Hutts]

Sure, there's plenty of reason not to cooperate. But there's no possible reason to conspire not to cooperate. If you don't want to cooperate, you just ignore each other and develop separately, which is the precise opposite of a conspiracy.

Re: European GSM bands

[krir]

>> Consider Europe, where there is only 2 general >> types (Both GSM, if you can call that 2
>> types). And they are everywhere in EU, yet

The European GSM networks actually use three different bands. 900MHz, 1800 MHz and 1900MHz. Most countries use some combination of two bands, and usually one of them is 900MHz.

In the US, GSM uses the 1900MHz band.

WCA is a good idea

[LuYu]

Since this Wireless Consumer's Alliance is giving these wireless providers some static, why don't we have a Literature Consumer's Alliance to protect the public domain from these monopolistic publishers?

While were at it, why not:

Movie Viewer's Alliance

and

Music Listener's Alliance

Yes really

[ImaLamer]

Ok, you are not smart.

You bought a phone AND[!] signed the contract. Did you read the contract? Chances are they do in fact 0wn your phone.

I have worked with and around mobile phones since cellular and up until now and the big bust of digital carriers.

Many [i.e. Verizon] companies started out as Cellular and still work on the same principles. They are buying the phone for you and selling it to you at a significant loss.

A local company that is now part of Verizon would, for example, sell you a Star TAC for $99 but they still 0wned the phone. They wouldn't go to great lenghts to retrieve it if you canceled your contract because you would have to pay the lump sum to get out of it. That lump sum is for the phone itself - not for any service.

Your contract isn't for service at all. Maybe it is. You would have to be stupid or desperate to get into a wireless contract today. I was a GTE customer when they rolled out in my area [one of the first] and ever since then Cellular has been dead.

Great quality, CDMA, no contracts, low minute charges and cool phones.

The down side to this new wireless telephone access is that when you buy a phone at the mall it is a "Sprint Phone" or a "Cingular Phone" - it's not "My Phone".

Actually if you watch the ads you will see that they advertise phones as "Get this nifty, cool, Sprint phone" but not "Get this nifty, cool, Nokia phone".

Alas, this was the reason that if you had provided your own equipment in the old Cellular game you could get out of signing the contract.

Imagine your local ISP sells you a computer for $49. You pay them a monthly fee for net access. He isn't going to let you move with it and likely they are going to make you sign a contract to recover the costs of your machine.