Handspring's New Handhelds

miradu2000 writes "Handspring has released even more handhelds to drool over. The Treo 270 is a wireless PDA, with a CSTN color screen! They also have decided to make a new organizer too, dropping their proprietary Springboard slot in favor of SD. The Treo 90 is a color PDA with SD and built in keyboard. Strange as it seems SD I/O will not work with the Treo 90. Full coverage is at TreoCentral.com."

Comments

And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[red5]

Laptops are nice moble phones are too. However I have yet to find a REAL use for a pda. Is it just me?

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[NanoGator]

I use a PocketPC to capture random story inspirations. I doubt I'm in the majority, but I've found it useful.

I've also found it useful as a system administration tool for keeping things like IP addies etc.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[Anonymous Coward]

I carry a Palm m100 around almost everywhere I go.
I use it for:
Alarm clock. More than one alarm per day (what I'd get with most watches) is nice.

Notepad. If I get an idea for something, or hear of a new band to check out, or some other random thing that I'm not likely to remember, I input it. Pen and paper would work for this too, though in my experience pads of paper don't last very long in pants pockets. The edges tend to get smashed and the bindings and pages become loose.

Addressbook. Memorizing a few dozen phone numbers and addresses is a pain in the ass. As for pen and paper, see above.

Calculator. I'm not very good at math, so I find this useful.

Ebook. Project Gutenberg rocks. Of course deadtree editions are better, but it's not always practical to carry around a book or two everywhere.

Games. I have a Gameboy Advance, but I don't usually carry it everywhere.

Yes, everything I use it for could be done with a bunch of other devices (multi-alarm watch, pocket notebook, calculator, GBA, library card). IMHO it wouldn't be as convenient, even if it might be a bit cheaper.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

As a generic user? I'm not really sure. The uses are there, waiting, for decent wireless net access that is cheap and universal. Their small enough, that you can easily use them standing up, with a single hand (unlike a laptop, that has to be pulled from the carrying case, and set down). If only it had the net access, checking stocks, looking for a place to eat, etc. all become possible. Maybe even keeping an accurate checkbook with debit cards (the cash register beams IR indicating the amount withdrawn?).

More intriguing for me, are the non-generic uses (they also require wireless networking, but not necessarily internet access). A waitress taking orders on an iPaq instead of a pad of paper. No more wasting paper pulp, or having unreadable orders. The data mining a restaurant could do, knowing exactly what and when something was ordered. The inventory accuracy that might allow.

Or maybe lots of things that you use a clipboard and paperwork for. Too many to name. Brain has stopped working, if this were a normal hour I could think of at least 2 dozen such ideas... I have before. Oh well...

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[NanoGator]

My cell phone has an 'internet connection'. I've found that useful a couple of times. Once when there was an earthquake and our net connection was down, and the other was when I was bored at a restaraunt and got up to speed on the news.

If my cell phone had a PDA built into it, simply being able to touch my choices would be a huge improvement over having to use a rocker switch.

Another potential use of PDA's involves an always-on wireless net connection. I like the idea of using something like a Treo where I get email updates and so on. This may sound silly, but I like the idea of checking my messages while I'm sitting through commercials on TV. Eventually I'll get a wireless card for my PDA so I can do that.

In other words, PDA's aren't quite there yet, but they're really becoming attractive.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[uberdave]

Well, most people find that it makes a good address book, calendar, calculator, todo list manager and notepad. Not to mention that it costs a quarter of the cost of the cheapest notebook, can fit into a pocket, and can play games. Mine runs for a couple of months on a couple of triple-A batteries. I wonder how long a notebook would run on the same power source? Did I mention that data can easily be transferred between it and a computer. Oh, and data can be transferred from one pda to another without adding special software or hardware.

Cheap, powerful, portable... Choose any three.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[badl]

Here's an example I came up with yesterday: A friend of mine had moved flat into a district I'm not fimilar with. I scanned a grid section from a map and download to my Zaurus. On my way there I was easily able to reference my location and found my way there.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

Why? Because I said my brain has stopped working?

No, this is my only slashdot account, and I rarely post AC. I split it pretty much equally between borderline trolling (done right, it's all borderline, isn't it?) and serious commentary. You'd be afraid if you knew which was which.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[Anonymous Coward]

I use mine to read the news from AvantGo (an off-line web browser) while I'm on the crapper!

Um, come to think of it, you may not want to touch my Palm....

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[child_of_mercy]

there are plenty of restaurants taking orders on handhelds right now.

to be honest it doesn't seem to improve the service any.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[SgtChaireBourne]

More intriguing for me, are the non-generic uses (they also require wireless networking, but not necessarily internet access). A waitress taking orders on an iPaq instead of a pad of paper. No more wasting paper pulp, or having unreadable orders.

Yes, this is very intriguing, but it may not be as fast and efficient as regular paper, yet. I visited a restaurant / cafe in Copenhagen a few times to see how they did this. Unfortunately, at that place the technology or the way it was used seemed to slow things down a lot. Prerequites for data mining can be done right now anyway by adding orders to the tab at the cash register as soon as they are requested. Most places have someone dedicated working the counter / register. Granted it would be fewer steps enter data just one at the point of order, but only if it's faster from the customer's perspective.

If disconnected networking activities are adequately supported, then these things will really replace the clipboard quickly.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[_Sprocket_]

The PDA form factor allows for much more mobility than a laptop (while a PDA does not offer the right form factor for the same computing tasks as a laptop). This mobility allows data to be with you even when you hadn't planned on it. Picking up the PDA and taking it wherever you go requires, more or less, no thought. A few examples:

• A friend of mine was on vacation when his daughter got bitten by a dog. They rushed to the hospital. All his contact and insurance information was at hand in the PDA he always took with him wherever he went.
  
• I often load up an e-book in my PDA. Whenever I'm stuck waiting for something, I have something interesting to read.
  
• Whenever I want to jot down a note on a sticky, I go ahead and use the notepad on my 'ole trusty Pilot. Its amazing how many times I suddenly need a phone number I didn't expect to use again, or a set of switches for a command, or maybe and IP address. If the data was on a sticky note, it would be lost on a desk somewhere or in the trash. A quick search on my Palm digs up the "disposible" information quickly.
  
• Of course, jotting down contact info whenever I find it the first time in the address book has proved invaluable almost as often as the note feature.
  
• I jot items in my HandyShop shopping list as I think of them. When it comes time to run to the store, I don't have that nagging "forgot something" feeling (which often means you're going to remember what you forgot sometimes after returning home).
  

A PDA is one of those things you don't need until you've got one. Then you can't live without it.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[thogard]

My phone does that too. But its about 1/2 the size of a plam III. It cost me about US$150 and I pay about US$25/mo for service. It has wireless internet access as well. Its a very good phone too. The down side is that I have to chage it about once a week but I've got a stand for it that charges it if it needs it at night.

I wonder if the large US PDA market has something to do with the lower cell phone take up.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty foolish to trust a >$300 w/ CF Wireless Handheld to a ~$2/hr No-Job-Loyalty Wait(er/tress). "I had it a second ago and now it's gone?"

Loose a couple of 'em and watch all those efficiencies go down the drain.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[Anonymous Coward]

Boy it would have sucked if his batteries had just happened to die. Oops, got to go resync before you can be treated. Besides who doesn't carry a copy of his insurance card in his wallet. Reading on a PDA just plain sucks. The page just isn't big enough. The other use you mention are also easily done with a simple small spiral notebook. I was an early adopter and I've had three PDA's. A PDA is something you don't realize you don't need until you leave it at home...

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[khungus]

i use my pda to keep track of girls' phone numbers and dates.

the upside to this is that i still have a lot of free ram, and the battery life is tops.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[Jebediah21]

One of my geek friends got a Palm and would ask myself and his roommate (both fellow nerds) when we we're going to get one since they were so handy. His roommate finally got tired of it and caved in. He bought a memo pad, wrote "Nathan's PDA" on it with a Sharpie (a anticapitalist tool in this case), and began jotting down notes in it. I never heard about how great Palm Pilots were after that.

I use a memo pad on occasion myself, but I don't have enough pocket space (wallet, cigs, shades) or desire to carry anything more with me. I'll get a PDA + Keyboard for typing someday, but I'm not in a rush and there are other things I covet more (like a digital camera (OT: anybody know of decent cheap one compatible with Linux?)) at this time.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[_Sprocket_]

He bought a memo pad, wrote "Nathan's PDA" on it with a Sharpie (a anticapitalist tool in this case), and began jotting down notes in it. I never heard about how great Palm Pilots were after that.

We each use tools that we most feel comfortable with. Even though I like my Pilot, sometimes I'm still using little sticky notes - mainly because I like pen and paper (although I often regret doing so as some tidbit of info is now floating around my desk somewhere). My wife uses a small notepad in much the same way as I use my PDA - notes, contacts, grocery lists, calendar, etc (though she does eye the PDA display at the local tech store).

But there are a few things to consider before we shrug off a PDA as an overpriced notebook. Collecting and storing data is the main strongpoint to a good PDA, but its small amount of computing power pushes it beyond a notebook.

The search function has been great. Sure, you can flip around a notebook looking for a tidbit of data. But my PDA's search is very quick. It makes short work out of hundreds of entries in several different database / formats.

PDA memory tends to outpace a notebook of the same size / convenience. Not only can I add data at wonton abandon, but if I keep up a regiment of syncing with my desktop - that data is backed up on a regular schedule (and can even be input by a much more comfortable keyboard or copy&paste action). Furthermore, that larger capacity allows one to tote around large amounts of data like dictionaries and e-books with no additional inconvenience (try that with your favorite paperback novel and notepad).

There are tasks that computing alone makes possible. I store account information encrypted with 128bit IDEA. I also have a few applications that kill time when the novel just doesn't quite work out (variations of Risk and Reversi to name two).

Sure, not everyone will find a PDA to their liking. And there were certainly simular devices before the PDA (consider Franklin who's pricy organizer products and systems now offer variations that include Franklin PDA applications and a compartment for a PDA). But nonetheless, PDAs are considerably more usefull than their critics often credit them to be.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[_Sprocket_]

Boy it would have sucked if his batteries had just happened to die. Oops, got to go resync before you can be treated.

Of course, he would have had to rely on more traditional methods to track down the info (including his insurance card in his wallet). But in this case all the data was at hand without the searching and phonecalls. Now the battery issue still exists but is rather easy to manage with at least a bit of forethought. It also helps to use a PDA that is as power-efficient as Palm devices are.

Reading on a PDA just plain sucks. The page just isn't big enough.

This is a common enough criticism. To each their own. I find the screen comfortable enough to read with (and the backlight is nice at times - at the expense of battery life). I will actually forget I'm reading from a PDA. But I still like books and am not about to give them up - even if I wish to duplicate my library to electronic form. PDAs may need to improve in this aspect (I wouldn't mind), but I already find it suitable for my use. And so do many others, it seems.

The other use you mention are also easily done with a simple small spiral notebook.

See my other reply. In some ways a spiral notebook will surfice. But paper doesn't quite match the convenience, manageability, searchability, and ease-of-backup offered by a PDA used in the propper manner.

I was an early adopter and I've had three PDA's. A PDA is something you don't realize you don't need until you leave it at home...

I occasionally decide to not pick up my PDA as I head out the door - or I simply forget. It is those times that I often miss it. I'll need a phone number, or want to jot down a note, or get stuck waiting somewhere when a few passages of a book or a game of Risk would help time pass.

I'm an early adopter and I've had ONE PDA - a Palm Pilot Pro (although I really, really should get something with more memory - and the ability to run modern apps). :)

I have gone from being almost fanatical about having the device at hand and using it at any excuse to almost abandoning it. I've found myself giving up some tasks to a laptop. And I've found that some of those tasks are still better on a PDA. The device has lost its gee-wiz charm where I was SSH-ing in to my desktop just because I could. Now it is a trusted, useful tool that does the appropriate tasks well.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[Jebediah21]

I agree. PDA's aren't for everbody, but when used correctly they are very useful. Like I said, I'll get one eventually, but I'm in no real rush.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[MrIcee]

I found my Handspring PDA to be a lifesaver. As a SUN system admin... when I was on a vacation in New Zealand I used my PDA not only to read and respond to email... but the TELNETs available for it allowed me to simply snap it into a foldable keyboard and telnet directly to the servers to handle emergencies. 'vi' worked extremely well, although cramped. I am always looking for the smallest, lightest, most useable technology I can carry to allow me, from anywhere, to admin my servers (and I'm in Hawaii, so I mean *from ANYWHERE*... be it at the beach or playing in the snow on the mountains... or cooking chicken in the flowing lava). I keep eyeing the phone/comb's... because currently I use a phone AND a pda... and it only makes sense to combine these. But they don't work well yet with our networks here on the islands and are still a bit too pricy and not enough battery power. Soon though. soon.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[ncc74656]

Laptops are nice moble phones are too. However I have yet to find a REAL use for a pda. Is it just me?

I track mileage with mine. I also use it to read e-books, and I can use Plucker to grab certain websites and carry them around for reference. It also has a few games loaded up for killing time, and I used to read/reply to email on the go with it back when I used Lookout Express on the desktop (anybody know how to sync Palm's mail app to a mail spool directory or (maybe) an IMAP server directly?).

It's also good for note-taking (took all my class notes with it one semester...and I used Grafitti for that, though a keyboard would've been nice to have), and it's easier to store and look up phone numbers and addresses in my Palm than in a cellphone.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[Kirruth]

Telnet and vi for a PDA. Dang, why didn't I think of that? World domination just got one step closer.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[Miska]

Quarter the cost of a notebook young man - you must be joking!

In fact, I was just about to make a comparison to a notebook - I can get hundreds of those for one of those handhelds.

... oh wait, you mean one of those....

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[smaug195]

This is what my mother did, you know the ONE reason she got a PDA? If she loses it, she does not lose any of her data. She uses an organizer as her right hand man, so if that data is gone it's awful. The time invested in reentering everything is certainly worth more then the 100$ then my mom paid for her Visor.

Re:And what are PDAs good for exactly?

[T0mWil5on]

I have yet to find a REAL use for a pda. Is it just me?

Actually, they can be a boon for in-the-field inventory and data collecting. While admittedly not a standard application, a project I'm working on utilizes Bar code scanning PDA's to great effect.

As for personal use, I swear by mine for taking notes and phone numbers. I'm not as likely to discard or lose a $300.00 PDA as I am a sticky note, old printout, napkin, paycheck stub, etc... :).

bah

[mlk]

I wish when they say "build in keyboard" they MENT a build in keyboard, not "some crappy small usable thing that kind-of looks like a keyboard".

Re:bah

[ADRA]

Just because it isn't 100% qwerty, doesn't make it not a keyboard. If this one is anything like the RIM's keyboard (which I think they ripped off), this thing is going to rock. RIMs besides their limited hardware are quite useable and quite well designed.

Re:bah

[NanoGator]

My girlfriend has a pager with a similar keyboard on it (perhaps a little smaller?) and she emails me a lot. She even uses it in lieu of a cell phone.

Not sure what you expect them to do, but what they provide is fine for the size. Altho that projected keyboard that was at a recent trade show was pretty cool. :)

Re:bah

[mlk]

what I want from a keyboard has already been done, it's just a few years (and 200MHz to slow).

This might be fine for a quick email, but I'm not going to be able to write a document on it (which is what I can do with my Revo).

Mlk

Re:bah

[NanoGator]

Ah, the clamshell design. I have a PDA like that somewhere. I used to use that for jotting down story ideas. I agree, the keyboard is better for writing stuff.

However, what became a problem is that I am on my feet quite a bit. The mini-keyboard is definitely very useful on a hard surface, but on your feet it becomes a huge drawback. I finally gave in and got me a Jornada (don't laugh :P) and I use the voice recording feature on it alot while I'm walking home.

I'm not telling you that you're wrong, just saying there are alternate requirements for these devices. :)

Re:bah

[mlk]

true, each does have it's place, but I wish someone would wake up are make a new revo-a-like :(

Mlk, stuck with a mono screen... but then two weeks of battrey life (even with NetHack instelled);)

Slashdot the troll

[ObviousGuy]

A: Palm is great, it does everything I need.

B: Palm sucks, you obviously have no idea what you're missing out on by avoiding the iPaq.

C: My friend had a Cassiopeia and it sucked.

B: Shut up, you're talking about 5 year old technology.

A: What else would I need to use my *Personal Digital Assistant* for? It's not supposed to be an all-in-one computer, you know.

C: My Palm III is still ticking! When it runs out I'm going to run out and buy it all over again.

A: It's a testament to Palm's greatness.

B: What greatness? Palm has a backward OS running on backward hardware doing things that can be accomplished with a pocket notebook for 45 cents.

A: Can a pocket notebook sort and group contacts?

D: My Newton is better than all of your crappy devices. It had handwriting recognition befo...

A,B,C (together): Shut up, dinosaur.

B: Anyway, if you feel that that device is good for you, Palm user, then so be it. Next time you're at CompUSA give the iPaq a whirl.

A: Fuck off Micro$oft luser. The day I use M$ technology is the day I get laid.

Re:Slashdot the troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Psion machines rock, the rest are shit paints that I'd not touch with a very large stylus.

Re:Slashdot the troll

[IanBevan]

A: Fuck off Micro$oft luser. The day I use M$ technology is the day I get laid.

ROFLMAO

Re:Slashdot the troll

[Anonymous Coward]

The day I use M$ technology is the day I get laid.

Is that all it takes?

.... Somewhere around here I have a copy of DOS 3.3. Will that work?

It's been that long ....

Re:Slashdot the troll

[Danse]

Somewhere around here I have a copy of DOS 3.3. Will that work?

Yeah, but the chick will be really old and ugly, and you'll have to do ALL the work.

CSTN Screen?

[Anonymous Coward]

What is it? What are the advantages/disadvantages?

Leave the computer?

[shermon]

What geek actually *leaves* their computer?!? I mean really, how useful are these stupid things? Even for business people who spend their life in meetings... these little toys take ten times that of a pencil and notepad. Computers are great when you use them practically.

Re:Leave the computer?

[ClimberTech]

"most geeks don't leave their computers"

well, maybe in the perfect world, HOWEVER at least everyone I know (including me) has to either go to school or work, and PDA's are great for keeping organized for those two things, plus they're great entertainment to use on your commute (subway, traffic, whatever). Having a laptop would be more favorable, however if you want something smaller (or just dont' have the money) PDA's are always an OK option

Re:Leave the computer?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't do school or work, my parents support me.

Re:Leave the computer?

[IHateEverybody]

Well, that's the nice thing about these "stupid things." You can take a piece of your computer with you when you go out into that big, blue room with the big, yellow light bulb. A pencil and a notepad have their drawbacks -- especially if you can't read your own handwriting half the time. I can read Slashdot, check my e-mail, make phone calls, get the weather forecast, carry more phone numbers than I can ever remember, more note than will fit in a one those big three ring binders, keep all my passwords encrypted, carry my shopping list, e-books, a copy of the Bible, a dictionary, and a calculator on my Treo 180g.

Re:Leave the computer?

[FallLine]

Well I don't know about so-called "geeks", because most of them are quite far removed from the need to make extensive use of an address address book, appointments, etc. However, for real business people these things are hugely useful. For instance, I know a lot of executives that have their secretaries/assistants add/lookup/edit schedules, phone #s, and addresses in Outlook from their own desks, which they then sync with their Palms. Having the ability to have the data readable and writable in multiple places at one time is a big deal. I'll grant you that it can take more time to write it down on the PDA (but not when it's combined with a computer) than with pen and paper. But looking it up IS often faster on both PC and PDA, plus it can be backed up, accessed by multiple people,e tc. They're really great productivity enhancers in this example. I know lots of other people that make great use of them as well (myself included), but that's one of the greatest using pure PDA functionality.

Re:Leave the computer?

[Kirruth]

I use my Treo180 alot for checking my e-mail when I find myself waiting around, like before a meeting to start or when stuck in a traffic jam. Unfortunately, my boss does the same thing, and generally gets me to do stuff: it so sucks to be me.

CRAP!!!

[GMontag]

Ugh! Finally broke down and got a VisorPro with VisorPhone and eyemodule2 last month (see journal), then they drop the price $30, now this?

Guess I gotta go checkout the new stuff abd break out the credit card ;-)

Re:My cats breath

[Anonymous Coward]

Despite what you've read to the contrary, never store the PDA in the crevice of your ass for "safe keeping".

Re:My cats breath

[ObviousGuy]

The stylus can be considered a personal digital assistant, though. I wouldn't advise against sticking such an object into one's ass, in any case.

SD port?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's an "SD" port?

Stupid Dork port?
Stinky Dingo port?
Sanitary Douche port?

Re:SD port?

[ObviousGuy]

It's the Hynes Convention Center in Boston, if you're on the East Coast.

Death of the springboard slot

[John Harrison]

I guess this is progress since they are moving away from a proprietary connector to an industry standard. Hopefully this new standard will last longer.

The thing that I never understood about the Springboard slot was how a Springboard GPS could cost so much more than a stand-alone one than included a nice screen and everything. I had thought that the point was that you could add funcitonality without spending so much money. But it turns out that you would spend lots of money for something that didn't do a great job. That just sucks. Was it a question of volume? Or difficulty integrating the devices? Anybody know?

Anyhow, I congratulate Handspring on their vision of an expandable PDA. At the same I think they have betrayed the trust consumers who thought they were investing in a platform, buying devices that they could still use after upgrading their Visor.

Re:Death of the springboard slot

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't be so premature. This isn't the death of Springboard.

The poster kinda has it wrong. The Treo series is designed to co-exist with the Visor models. The Visors will continue to have Springboard...The Treos will not. It's that simple.

Re:Death of the springboard slot

[Chanc_Gorkon]

Currently seen the Magellan GPS at Walmart for 117, plus they have a 50 dollar rebate on them....is 50 bucks too much?

Re:Death of the springboard slot

[pugfantus]

The problem is, they annouced the death of the Visor already at the end of the year stock holders meeting, iirc. The Treo is the future of the company from here on out.

--pug

Re:Death of the springboard slot

[denzombie]

Let it die...

I purchased two springboard modules and was underwhelmed by both. Innogear's MP3 player was reasonably cool, but it sucked bateries, and the GPS module broke after a week of use and it took me two months to get a refund.

The springboard seemed like a great idea at first, but I don't think it ever lived up to it's promise.

Re:Death of the springboard slot

[HunterD]

It's really unfortunate, the springboard is bar none the best expansion slot in the PDA business. no where else can I have one slot that can be rigged to take compact flash, smartmedia, memory sticks, mmc, or native expansions?

Being stranded with the springboard is STILL better then being stuck with only SD. Can I view photos from digital camara using springboard? You betcha. will I ever be able to do the same with SD? I seriously doubt it.

Re:Death of the springboard slot

[John Harrison]

Currently seen the Magellan GPS at Walmart for 117, plus they have a 50 dollar rebate on them....is 50 bucks too much?

How long did it take for the price to come down to that? I am under the impression that this sort of thing is a close-out special. The initial promise of the device was that modules would be easy to develop, available quickly, and would be cheaper than their stand-alone counterparts. Now that the Visor is dead you can get the modules for cheap. Where was the $70 GPS 2 years ago?

Re:Death of the springboard slot

[Chanc_Gorkon]

Actually, this one was not that expensive to begin with. Consider you can get a honest to god Garmin for 105 now(back then for about 130-150), I guess the reciever parts dropped enough to get to the 117 level. Springboards were the one of the first forays into expanding PDA's. Palm even got caught flat footed in that, but will come out looking good becuase it chose standard devices like SD. Palm just had enough cash to screw up that one time. Now they probably can't afford to do it again. Unfortunately, Palm's current offerings are less then stellar. I'd go with a Treo 270 or a Sony NRV70 (nifty clamshell keyboard if your forgot) if I were to go Palm OS based. When XScale finaly hits both Pocket PC (they will get it first) and Palm, then you will be able to do some real stuff with it.

Re:Death of the springboard slot

[Exocet]

The above comment is right on.

I challenge IPaq users, Sony Clie users, Palm users - anyone using a commercially available PDA - to prove to me that their PDA is more versatile than
mine - a Handspring Visor w/ the open-arms springboard slot.

I've got a 64MB compact flash card in my Handspring Visor right now via Innopocket's FlashPlus adapter. I make full backups onto the CF card, along
with store books, maps of the majority of Oregon and Washington and I run applications off've the CF card. On the weekends I pop in the Geode GPS
from GeoDiscovery (a VERY under developed product) and go Geocaching. I keep the 64MB CF card on hand incase I need some of those maps.

My friends have a wireless springboard module and a modem module, respectively. They've customized their PDA's. As I have customized my PDA to fit
my specific needs. SD, by definition, is not as versatile. And that's kind of sad, because SD isn't better - it's just more widespread.

Everyone out there whining about how springboard modules weren't all they were advertised to be or how there aren't as many as you'd like or whatnot
...Ask yourself: Are the first games released for the PS2 the best damn PS2 games you'll ever see? Hell no. The first games take advantage of the
new technology and by definition are cool. But they by no means take full advantage of that technology. By being early product releasors, producers
of many springboard slots took risks. Some did ok, others did not. But since the PDA market is much more fragmented than the game console market,
they cheesed off some users who simply skipped the customization in favour of something more standardized. Something more comfortable.

Ask yourself ...is a broad/dynamic slot such as the springboard slot, really such a bad idea? Especially when compared to the alternative, an SD
slot? Or maybe you're an IPaq user. You have more options on the IPaq, as I understand it - but is it an option where that CF card or modem will fit
flush in your PDA?

@home is dead.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a well known fact that DSL is just second rate to cable. The ill-informed DSL guys will tell you how great it is and all, a nice dedicated connection - but they won't tell you it's dedicated to the switch.

The point being, you've got all these people pirating mp3s, porn, and software and you still are gonna get shitty service. Let's just hope you live across the street from the telco's switching equipment.

The telco's have no reason to maintain their lines either, they have to open it up to other companies which look bad when bell decides to get around to fixing a problem on the lines - they make money by neglecting their equipment.

@home shot itself in the foot by offering crappy DSL service.

Cable on the other hand is not regulated meaning they have don't have to open their systems for shit. They generally provide better service anyway.

In a 2001 Newsweek report it stated that the DSL market has shruken nearly a staggering 14% in one year, 9% of that in the last quarter alone. If you own stock in any of the other big DSL companies such as Verizon, Swbell, or @home then you are in for a big surprise. Lets just hope you enough bandwidth to come crying on slashdot when your company leaves your ass hanging in the breeze.

Fact: @home is DEAD.

HP j0rnada ownz j00

[Anonymous Coward]

Handspring suX0rz....I am so l33t I can run NetBSD on my J0rnada bwawawawawah!

These look better...

[ClimberTech]

these are lookin nicer than older PDA's, but still... if you want useful mobile computing, I still say buy a freakin laptop! $1000 more for $1000 more worth of features!

Re:These look better...

[NanoGator]

Ever tried using a laptop on a plane?

a.) Battery life sucks

b.) Tray-tables can BARELY support a laptop. You can breat your screen if the guy in front of you leans back

c.) A PDA fits in your pocket. That's surprisingly useful when you have to go to the bathroom.

I use a PDA to record (voice no less) story inspirations. I'm not carrying a laptop on my daily 4-mile walk just to do that.

People don't use PDA's because they're masochists, they use them because they are useful.

Re:These look better...

[IHateEverybody]

Yeah but did you ever try to hold a laptop to your ear to make a phone call? It's not a pretty sight.

Re:These look better...

[Brento]

a.) Battery life sucks
b.) Tray-tables can BARELY support a laptop. You can breat your screen if the guy in front of you leans back

I'm guessing you're basing these assumptions on laptops from a few years ago. I'm a big fella (6'3", 215#) and I can use my fairly late-model Thinkpad T21 just fine on a seatback tray. Even if the guy leans back suddenly, there's no danger. I couldn't say that for my Toshiba Satellite Pro from a couple years back, though.

With the UltraBay battery installed, I get about 4 hours of battery life - my Palm M105 lasts about twice that under constant use, but who wants to use a PDA for 4 hours straight? Much less 8. I tried using a Palm to write a memo once during a cross-country flight, just to see how it would work, and I gave up after about a paragraph.

c.) A PDA fits in your pocket. That's surprisingly useful when you have to go to the bathroom.

You're using your PDA in the bathroom? I'm confused. Surely you can't be saying this is an advantage on an airplane - nobody's stealing laptops off airplanes.

I use a PDA to record (voice no less) story inspirations. I'm not carrying a laptop on my daily 4-mile walk just to do that.

Based on your parameters, an ordinary $25 tape recorder would work even better. You still haven't explained why you would use a PDA.

Re:These look better...

[Bearpaw]

A laptop is "mobile" like a mobile home is "mobile". Unless I can carry it in a pocket and easily use it while holding it, it's not "mobile", it's dead weight. If I wouldn't carry it everywhere, why should I bother carrying it anywhere?

Re:These look better...

[NanoGator]

"I'm guessing you're basing these assumptions on laptops from a few years ago. "

Um no, Im basing it on a flight I took 5 days ago. I have a Toshiba Portege that is like TINY and it was still a pain to use it on the flight.

"I tried using a Palm to write a memo once during a cross-country flight, just to see how it would work, and I gave up after about a paragraph."

Understandable, but you can get a laptop sized keyboard for it that folds up and fits in your pocket.

"You're using your PDA in the bathroom? I'm confused. Surely you can't be saying this is an advantage on an airplane - nobody's stealing laptops off airplanes."

Damn, I had that thought clearly in my mind and didn't express it too well. Sorry about that. Here's what I meant to say: When on an airplane using a laptop, it's a bit of a tetris game to get up and go to the bathroom. In order to get up, I had to lift up my laptop, replace my tray with one hand (I was in an emergency row, so it was one of those funky fold up trays..), and then do a little dance to get out into the aisle and put my laptop back on my chair. A PDA I can just pop in my pocket, get up and go.

I didn't mean to imply that I would use the PDA in the bathroom, heh.

"Based on your parameters, an ordinary $25 tape recorder would work even better. You still haven't explained why you would use a PDA. "

To be honest, I thought that'd be obvious. If I record my voice, I can write out a short description of that note using the filename, and then back it up. With a tape recorder, I have to jump around the tape for basic ideas. Not that useful.

And yes, I did explain it.

Re:These look better...

[i0lanthe]

if you want useful mobile computing, I still say buy a freakin laptop!

Well, that really depends on what you need, what you mean by "mobile", and how much you're willing to carry how far. Sometimes even something laptop-sized is too large for the actual utility it provides. I just got back from a conference.. some friends/colleagues got to chatting about checked luggage (one person's had gotten lost by the airline, and as far as I know still hasn't been found) and carry-on luggage (a couple people's had gotten "randomly" searched by the airline last time) and, tangentially, laptops. Some of us agreed that (for the conferences we've been to; YMMV) the only reason we would lug a laptop around on a trip is to give a PowerPoint presentation. Consider the other things you might use it for...

Taking notes: you can use free pens and paper (or a PDA and a Stowaway keyboard if you are me - I've never seen anyone else being that geeky and a couple of folks have come up to me at ICSE just to say that they never had seen it either). The convention site often provides copious writing materials.

Passing notes: I've never seen anyone use a laptop to pass notes ;)

Checking email: usually the conferences we go to will provide other options (so you don't have to use the hotel phone lines or the hotel $9.99/day web access) for which you don't need to bring any computing hardware of your own.

Playing games: sure, you can get more sophisticated games on a laptop, but presumably we're talking about killing a few minutes (while the next PowerPoint presenter reboots their laptop because plug-and-play didn't play nice) for which solitaire on a PDA or doodling on real paper is generally adequate. See also "passing notes".

Watching DVDs: ok, you've got me there, but if you're carrying a laptop just so you can watch movies in an airport between flights, you have a stronger back than me.

Getting work done: I suppose some people might find a laptop useful for this. Some things I can't do with a laptop anyway. Some things (reading papers, talking to people) I can do just as well without a laptop. Some things that I can do with a laptop can really wait until I get back to my office where there is a decent sized display. I'm not really into the "taking a wireless laptop outside of the office to bask in the sun" thing even when I'm not travelling. (Sss! The Yellow Face, it burnsss usss!)

Theoretically it should even be possible to give a PowerPoint presentation without bringing a laptop (rely on the computers available at the conference to have PowerPoint installed) but in practice it seems to be a risky business. I've seen a lot of things go just slightly wrong.. versions, fonts, missing images, etc. (Anyone tried that Margi Presenter-to-go springboard module? I'd consider getting one if the price was right, but first I have to figure out what price is right for read-only.)

Re:FP!

[Anonymous Coward]

ZoneAlarm lets you block the ad completely, hosts puts an ugly red X there.

Still not as sexy as the new Clie...

[Yousef]

This Handspring still isn't as Sexy or as impressive as the new Sony Clie PEG-NR70V. Though, the Handspring's built in wireless and GSM capabilities are nice to see.

On a side note, with $700 and $600 price Tags, why not throw in $1000 and just get a Notebook instead? Then again, who cares about cost when your buying toys! :-)

Re:Still not as sexy as the new Clie...

[IHateEverybody]

On a side note, with $700 and $600 price Tags, why not throw in $1000 and just get a Notebook instead? Then again, who cares about cost when your buying toys! :-)


Different toys for different boys. You can pull a PDA from your pocket, look up one thing and put it right back in your pocket. You can't do that with a laptop. You have to pull your laptop out of your briefcase or computer bag, open it up, look for an outlet, if you want to use it for more than a few minutes, and wait for it to boot up before you can do anything with it. You also can't carry your laptop around in your pocket or use it as a cell phone either.

OMG!! PLEASE HELP (totally offtopic)

[Anonymous Coward]

PLEASE HELP ME

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php? s= e780680794f50546c2cebc55d89a8103&threadid=160401

Someone MUST have a somthingawful forum registration? if so, can you go there and copy/paste what it says? Please oh god please!

Treo 180 users get the shaft!

[Desus]

...and as such I too am getting shafted.

Why is there an upgrade program for people who have a Visorphone, but none for those who want to upgrade the old Treo to one with better battery life and a color screen. I'm happy with my current Treo but damn, don't we all want color?

Seems really stupid for Handspring to Shit on Early Adopters.

Re:Treo 180 users get the shaft!

[IHateEverybody]

...and as such I too am getting shafted.

Why is there an upgrade program for people who have a Visorphone, but none for those who want to upgrade the old Treo to one with better battery life and a color screen. I'm happy with my current Treo but damn, don't we all want color?

Seems really stupid for Handspring to Shit on Early Adopters.

Here, here. I own a Treo 180g and I want an upgrade program too. Damnit Handspring, you're turning your back on people who want to give you more of their money!

What is SD I/O?

[Anonymous Coward]

And where are the specs? I wrote a driver for a TMS 320C5x SpringBoard that used HPI. Anyone have an idea how hard it would be to port?

Re:What is SD I/O?

[tetro]

What's an SD port worth when it doesn't fully support the SD specs? If they're already announcing that the treo 90 won't suppport SD I/O cards, then I think they're already shooting themselves in the feet. Even if they release some driver in the future that would enable I/O cards, this kind of publicity can turn off consumers.

How many will they sell?

[steveha]

I'm trying to figure out the hook for this product. It isn't the smallest Palm PDA. It isn't the highest resolution Palm PDA. It isn't the most expandable Palm PDA. It isn't the cheapest Palm PDA.

It is slightly smaller than a Visor Deluxe, but not much thinner. It is still 160x160, but with 12-bit color. (The Prism has 16-bit color, but the Prism is thicker than a Visor Deluxe, not thinner.)

All I can come up with is: it is the only Palm PDA that has the built-in thumb keyboard. Will this hook be enough to sell lots of these?

steveha

Re:How many will they sell?

[rbeattie]

I think the keyboard is pretty cool. If they wacked another $150 off the price and made it in b&w, I'd buy it tomorrow. (I know, I know. But I'm a cheap bastard.)

What I do think is funny is that after a decade of different devices with different handwriting recognitions, the latest and greatest gadget is a PDA with a keyboard that could have easily been done years ago. Imagine if Apple just skipped the handwriting recognition in the Newton and included a thumb keyboard? Of if Sharp had just figured out that the keyboard needed to be used by your thumbs in all those Zaurus models?

It would have saved probably 6 cumulative months of my life in time I've spent trying to get Graffiti to actually work.

-Russ

Re:How many will they sell?

[IHateEverybody]

The Prism isn't just thicker than the Visor Deluxe, it is significantly heavier. The Prism weighs 6.9 oz. The Treo 90 weighs just 4 oz., which does indeed make it one of the smallest PalmOS machines you can buy. So it is a small, low priced color handheld with a keyboard. This is a good combination even if there is no one "hook."

And you underestimate the size difference between the Visor line of handhelds and the Treo. I own a Treo 180g and it just disappears into my pockets while a Visor Deluxe makes a noticeable "lump" in my pocket. The Visor Prism also feels the same way only even heavier.

Also, I notice that before the Treos, Handspring didn't have a handheld with a decent flip cover. The Visors used this clunky snap on cover that was enough of a pain that I never used it unless I was putting my Visor away for long term storage. It's a small thing but I really missed the Palm III's flip cover when I switched from it to a Visor Deluxe.

Having said all this, I must confess that when I looked at Handspring's two new machines, I was drooling over the Treo 270, not the 90. Like I mentioned before, I own a Treo 180g, so the 270 is a natural upgrade for me.

But with the 90, its natural competitor would be the Palm m130 which is comparable to it in terms of size, specs, and price. Other than the keyboard, the 90 doesn't have an overwhelming advantage over the m130. The keyboard will appeal to PDA newbies who don't want to learn Graffiti. But Graffiti is so easy to learn that this may not be a huge advantage. Long-time Palm users are unlikely to switch to the 90 from another PalmOS machine unless they are really bad at Graffiti and will likely gravitate to a more traditional PDA like the m130.

I'd say that the Treo 90 will do well in terms of sales but it will never be as big a seller as the Visor Deluxe was for Handspring.

Re:How many will they sell?

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't the smallest Palm PDA. It isn't the highest resolution Palm PDA. It isn't the most expandable Palm PDA. It isn't the cheapest Palm PDA.

Are you intentionally leaving out the fact that it is a cellphone / wireless internet device?

Re:How many will they sell?

[bioart]

"I think the keyboard is pretty cool. If they wacked another $150 off the price and made it in b&w, I'd buy it tomorrow"

???

Did you see the Treo 180? that's exactly what you described... hope you enjoy it this afternoon :)

Re:How many will they sell?

[Wojina]

I'm trying to figure out the hook for this product. It isn't the smallest Palm PDA. It isn't the highest resolution Palm PDA. It isn't the most expandable Palm PDA. It isn't the cheapest Palm PDA.
...
All I can come up with is: it is the only Palm PDA that has the built-in thumb keyboard. Will this hook be enough to sell lots of these?

Apparently, you haven't seen the Sony NR70. You're missing out.

Re:How many will they sell?

[rbeattie]

I got all excited there for a sec. I was talking about a b&w version of the Treo 90.

-Russ

Re:How many will they sell?

[Sorklin]

All I can come up with is: it is the only Palm PDA that has the built-in thumb keyboard. Will this hook be enough to sell lots of these?

Hmm. I think you're forgetting the Clie NR70, that not only has the thumb keyboard, but a swivel 320x480 color (65k) screen. It runs palm os 4.1.

Re:How many will they sell?

[i0lanthe]

Also, I notice that before the Treos, Handspring didn't have a handheld with a decent flip cover. The Visors used this clunky snap on cover that was enough of a pain that I never used it unless I was putting my Visor away for long term storage. It's a small thing but I really missed the Palm III's flip cover when I switched from it to a Visor Deluxe.

I have a Visor Deluxe and I became much much happier when I bought the third-party flip cover sold at flipcover.com. It flips all the way around to the back.

Probably not a silver bullet for everyone (depends on your springboard module usage patterns) but IMHO it's at least worth a look.

Re:My cat's ass

[Anonymous Coward]

Your cat's ass tastes like cat shit too, if my memory serves me.

Why is this a Treo?

[steveha]

Why is Handspring using their Treo brand for this?

The Treo is supposed to do the work of three gadgets: a cell phone, a PDA, and a wireless 2-way pager like a RIM Blackberry. But this is just a PDA.

I guess they just figured that the form factor is the same, the accessories will work just the same, so just go ahead and use the same brand.

The "Visor" brand never really meant anything in the first place, so maybe it doesn't matter that "Treo" no longer means what it used to mean.

steveha

Re:Why is this a Treo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Methinks it has something to do with a commitment to developers that the Visors would continue to support Springboard.

Huh?

[dangermouse]

It is a cell phone, PDA, and wireless 2-way pager like RIM. See?

Re:Huh?

[steveha]

Sorry, my bad. The "it" I was talking about is the Treo 90, not the 270. The 270 is of course a proper Treo. The 90 is a PDA.

Sorry.

steveha

Springboard

[mrpuffypants]

this says that they're dropping the springboard modules completely. I say goodbye to them happily

My Visor Neo is a great device, but with the paltry choices avaliable for modules (tiger woods golf and a crappy dictionary among them) it never seemed to me like the expansions avaliable really justified the physical space used up by the slot in the first place

Re:Springboard

[IHateEverybody]

I disagree completely. (Or course I would, I own a bunch of Springboards that I can't use anymore with my Treo 180g. :-)) When the Visor first came out, epansion didn't exist on the Palm platform.

I got the backup module and it saved my ass plenty of times. I got the Flash module and had a 24MB PalmOS machine at a time when no PalmOS machine was supposed to have more than 8MB of memory. I bought the Eyemodule2 for taking pictures and much later, a Minijam for MP3s.

And I didn't have to buy them all over again when I upgraded from a Visor Deluxe to a Platinum to a Prism. I could reuse all of my Springboard modules on new handheld. I still wish there were some Springboard adaptor so I could use Springboard modules with my Treo 180g.

Re:Springboard

[richj]

My Visor Neo is a great device, but with the paltry choices avaliable for modules

Oh come on.

The GPS module rocks. Granted it's not as good as a dedicated device (takes forever to get an initial fix), but where else can you turn your PDA into a map-capable (with Mapopolis) GPS receiver?

The Xircom wireless 802.11 was well worth the $99 I paid for it. I work in Manhattan, and can hop on a NYCWireless access point at various points in the city and get my email while having lunch outside. Not to mention to be able to roam around the office and still have email/IRC/ssh/AIM, etc.

The dictionary sucks, but you can't expect an unabridged dictionary on a small card, can you? It's still a handy little reference, though.

I know that Palm may offer this capability now, but they couldn't when Handspring was first introduced.

I think the Springboard was a great platform, but obviously my use of it was different than yours. I'm sad to see it go. Well maybe not now that I can probably pick up a Prism dirt cheap ;)

Re:Springboard

[Cato]

What would be really useful is a Bluetooth-connected Springboard dock, i.e. you plug your Springboard into a separate gizmo and Bluetooth networks it to your new organiser (Treo, Palm, Sony, etc). A bit slower probably, but OK for many applications, just needs software support in PalmOS to extend the Springboard interface over Bluetooth.

The only flaw in this idea is that Handspring have for some reason not put Bluetooth in their devices, unlike most new mid-to-high end phones in Europe, but Sony and Palm do have Bluetooth. They also forgot GPRS for some reasons - no idea why, since GPRS is available in every major European country and is rolling out in the US.

I have a Visor Deluxe but I just bought a Palm m515 so I can use Bluetooth to network to my GPRS phone (Ericsson T68). At the rate wireless technology is evolving, I think separate PDA and phone is the way to go - this also makes it easy to network a laptop to the phone, and laptop to PDA for syncing, etc. You can also use Bluetooth for wireless headsets for extra geek points...

Re:HP j0rnada suX0rz

[badl]

No the Zaurus kicks the jornada's butt ;)

Handspring's last PDA? Or not?

[steveha]

Donna Dubinsky of Handspring announced in January 2002 that Handspring would be exiting the organizer business; there would be no more organizers, just "communicators" like the Treo.

Does the Treo 90 represent a reversal of this policy, or can we assume that Handspring is still exiting the organizer business? In other words, is the Treo 90 the last standalone PDA device Handspring will ship?

It appears to me that Donna Dubinsky's announcement was a mistake. The expensive phone/PDA Treo has not sold well, probably simply because it is expensive and times are tough right now. Handspring has been forced to slash prices again and again to keep Visors selling, probably because customers view Visors as a dead-end ever since Ms. Dubinsky's announcement. Now Handspring has shipped the Treo 90 and discontinued the Prism, while continuing to ship other Visor models; this isn't what I would expect if Handspring is serious about exiting the PDA market.

Looks to me like PDAs aren't dead. But I can't really be sure.

If I'm right and Handspring has decided not to exit the PDA market, they ought to have Donna Dubinsky make another announcement. Yes, that's embarrassing to do, but it seems better than leaving customers to wonder whether devices like the Treo 90 will be orphans or not.

steveha

That's "How many Treo 90s will they sell?"

[steveha]

Arrgh. I didn't say it, but "this product" is the Treo 90, the one without cell-phone or wireless pager features.

steveha

Springboard Modules

[Alexius]

Well, at least those early adopters of the springboard will be able to buy the soon-to-be-defunt technology for cheap. Once the port is offically no longer support, who'd want that stuff? I'll be bargain basement. (I hope)

World's easiest ad campaign...

[TWX_the_Linux_Zealot]

Three steps to a successful ad campaign:

1) Build a mildly useful, yet somewhat gimmicky product.

2) Build a website and host it on a high-bandwidth provider

3) Submit your site with a catchy story to Slashdot, and watch the orders come in...

Treo vs. Kyocera smartPhone

[mr100percent]

What advantages does the Treo have over the Kyocera SmartPhone? The one that actually has a keypad, and a palm screen when you flip it open.

My wireless-junkie friend tells me that either one is a really bad idea, as you can't upgrade them, no expansion slots, no bluetooth. Your thoughts?

Re:Treo vs. Kyocera smartPhone

[Matthew Weigel]

The 270 is color, which the Kyocera is not, but it's got the flip screen cover, which the Samsung lacks. I despise the keypad personally, not only do I not use QWERTY but I don't do QWERTY with my thumbs.

For folks that are buying right now, I'd say go with the Kyocera or the Treo 180g.

Bluetooth is the way of the future, though. It can reduce your need to keep all devices immediately accessible (why phone/PDA combos are so popular), and it can let you upgrad individual parts of your personal setup as you need new pieces. But it's not hugely feasible right now, Bt headsets are ridiculously expensive but they represent a necessary building block in keeping your actual phone in secondary storage like a briefcase or backpack (since the headset is much less bulky).

Re:Treo vs. Kyocera smartPhone

[IHateEverybody]

The Treo is much smaller and lighter than the Kyocera smart phone. The Treo also twice the memory 16MB vs. 8MB and a faster processor 33MHz vs. 16MHz than the Kyocera. The keyboard on the Treo vs. Graffiti on the Kyocera is more a matter of personal preference than anything else.

Re:Treo vs. Kyocera smartPhone

[Chanc_Gorkon]

Another point for separate items.....try using your Treo or Kyocera Smartphone on a airplane to play solitare. You'd whip it out and the stewardess would say no no no!

Re:Treo vs. Kyocera smartPhone

[pauljlucas]

and a faster processor 33MHz vs. 16MHz than the Kyocera

The Kyocera SmartPhone has a 20MHz processor.

Re:Treo vs. Kyocera smartPhone

[pauljlucas]

My wireless-junkie friend tells me that either one is a really bad idea, as you can't upgrade them

Depends what you mean by "upgrade." The Smartphone is flash-ROM upgradable for a newer PalmOS (although you need to use Kyocera's tweaked PalmOS that includes phone features and not a standard PalmOS ROM image). The Treo is not flash upgradable.

Also, how much memory do you really need as opposed to want? I've got all my information in my Smartphone (including Quo Vadis maps of the entire SF bay area) and still have 63% of the memory free.

Re:Treo vs. Kyocera smartPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

As I understand it, the battery life on the Treo sucks big time, and the new color might make its life even shorter. Sucks as in under 5 phone calls before a recharge.

This picture says it all.

[jukal]

With only one click of your thumb you can now press 3 keys at the same time. Imagine the performance boost. Imagine Billy boy launching his nukes with this - oops! there went Europe as well :)

Seriously, a keyboard is a good idea, but only when you can fit in something at least close to the standard layout and atleast close to the size which makes it possible to press only the correct button. Like in the Nokia 9210.

Re:This picture says it all.

[jukal]

> Imagine Billy boy

Aww, I quess it took me a couple of years to type that with my new Treo ;))

Re:This picture says it all.

[X-Lancer]

I'm not really sure, but if it was the same size aa the Ericsson Chatboard, I would say it's quite useful. I was able to use it without pressing other keys mistakenly.

Re:This picture says it all.

[jukal]

The one in the new Treos is much smaller. Chatboard was quite useful, admitted.

Re:This picture says it all.

[Midnight Thunder]

This is one of the reasons that I opted for a Palm device in the first place, over the keyboard counter-parts (Casio organizer and Psion 5).

If they ever offer a Treo at a reasonable price ( doesn't look so reasonable when you convert it to Canadian dollars ) and offer a regular palm scratch zone, then I would certainly consider buying one.

Re:This picture says it all.

[Blake]

With only one click of your thumb you can now press 3 keys at the same time

Ah, but that's the beauty of it. I've been told that the OS will, when you hit three keys at the same time, figure out which one you actually meant to hit, and only insert that one.

Later,
Blake.

Re:This picture says it all.

[ShavenYak]

I've been told that the OS will, when you hit three keys at the same time, figure out which one you actually meant to hit, and only insert that one.

So, it magically will know whether I mean to call you a 'duck', a 'fuck', or a 'dick' ?

Re:This picture says it all.

[stickb0y]

Not true.

Read Dan Bricklin's Treo review. His review discusses usability, and he describes how surprisingly easy it is to use the keyboard, even if one accidentally presses multiple keys.

Let's talk about SD.

[mindstrm]

Okay. I've seen lots of new laptops with SD readers, and now handhelds as well.

But I've yet to see a single SD card in use.

What is SD, and why would I use it over, say, any other conventional flash.

Is it actually useful, or something some industry is trying to push?

Re:Let's talk about SD.

[Dicky]

SD, as I understand it (and I'm writing this on a device with an SD slot) is an extension of MMC - Multi-Media Card. While they don't look as silly, MMC is somewhat like a smaller version of SmartMedia - around 50% the size - incidentally, SM is exactly the same surface size as CF. MMC, like SM, is memory-only...

The three main things which SD adds over MMC, AIUI:

• Non-memory devices. This is important - having a slot on a PDA (as opposed to say, an MP3 player or camera) which can only take memory is silly, so this was a necessary change to move MMC into the PDA world.
• More addressing space for memory. MMC, AIUI, is limited to 64Mb - SD can go bigger (I don't know how big) and that's important. I have a 256Mb CF card in my PDA, and I wouldn't use anything smaller...
• Some DRM thing - I'm ignoring it and hoping it goes away.

There is some amount of industry pressure behind this stuff (note DRM above), but it is much smaller than CF, which is a good thing. The other thing, which is a problem, is that I understand that apparantly implementing an SD driver needs a pay-for license for the standard. This is a bad thing for handheld Linux - the Zaurus has a closed-source SD driver, and it's an issue for iPAQ Linux.

Re:Let's talk about SD.

[Anonymous Coward]

SD is sloooooowwwwww ...
At least compared to CF memory SD seems to be so much slower it sometimes gets painful.

Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

I use a Palm 515 (up from a 505 & IIIC), daily in my work and personal life. Beats the hell out of carrying a day planner.

A PDA is not meant to be a replacment for a laptop, but then it depends a what you are using the laptop for.

My problem is I now also carry an iPod, and it's becoming more and more like a generic PDA all the time.

Neat, but

[haunebu]

Does it still use that crummy 16-bit Dragonball-powered Palm OS 4.1? It just seems more and more obvious that, while Palm OS is good at enabling basic PDA functionality, it's a technological dead-end. Handspring's tied to software which was never built around wireless data transfer (hence no GPRS) and can't multi-task (no can listen to your MP3s while still being able to receive calls).

Unless they price these things really, really cheap, they're in line to get absolutely stomped by Symbian and Pocket PC 2002 Phone Edition.

Speaking of PPC2KPE, a review of the first device to market running it (codenamed Wallaby) can be found here. Now THAT's a device to drool over!

Re:Neat, but

[biglig2]

Well, PalmOS 5, due soon, will run on ARMs, although it will run all the Dragonball software in emulation (without speed loss,which is kinda neat until you remember how fast an ARM is ;-)

But even now I can see where the Treo can be a better choice for some people than PocketPC or Symbian; the form fcator will be compelling for some people. Not an really tiny (and long and thin) screen like the phone shaped ones, and not a huge pancake like the PDA shaped ones.

Re:Neat, but

[Anonymous Coward]

From the PPC2KPE "review" ( the illustration is CG, so "preview" is probably closer to the truth ):

"They lose a point here and there for missing a few fundamentals [...] But that's okay; it's their first try."

-> I'll wait.

No, actually I won't - I'll get a Zaurus.

Re:Neat, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Palm OS is built on top of the AMX kernel, which is a multi-tasking kernel.

Re:Neat, but

[c13v3rm0nk3y]

Has Symbian actually released anything that is in production use on a daily basis?

Even on a regular keyboard..

[X-Lancer]

..I can mistype "as" into "aa"! :-)

Keys too small on blackberry?

[OffTheRack]

Does anybody buy and use those little blackberry (RIM) devices? I'm talking about the old ones with the tiny keys, not the newton sized monster they are selling now.

Seems to me the little keys are very usable. Sometimes a picture can be worth a thousand misleading words.

Re:Handspring's last PDA? Or not?

[Datafage]

1:35, 1:39, 1:59, 2:06, the first 2 being root comments with almost the same content. Whore much?

And blackberry keyboards are too small too?

[OffTheRack]

I think the folks at RIM would argue that size does not matter. :) www.blackberry.com

Re:And blackberry keyboards are too small too?

[Anonymous Coward]

size does matter if it's for your wang.

8==============)

Re:And blackberry keyboards are too small too?

[DataSquid]

Their keyboard is great. At least on the pager-sized device, I liked the feel of the PDA sized device less. Oh, and from what I hear they're the ones with the patent on the thumb qwerty keyboard, not Motorola or the other latecomers.

Secure Digital - Panasonic

[Anonymous Coward]

Their version of flash memory cards. Very small and thin, these are also used by the Palm m500/505/515's as an example. I have several of these small cards, from 16mb to 64mb. I also have a reader that allows me to mount them on my Mac OS X desktop.

Just got a Treo 180

[Anonymous Coward]

I absolutly LOVE it!. I was never much of a PDA user but this phone/pda is a real slick piece of tech.
My only complaints..
I wish the keyboard had a backlight. (may mod it)
And the batterylife could be better.

My 2 cents.

Re:Just got a Treo 180

[Nakago4]

Wouldn't your battery life be even worse if they had made a backlight for the keyboard?

Re:A little dog interviewing /. audience

[Anonymous Coward]

FOR ME TO POOP ON!

ack.

[Anonymous Coward]

to think that my year and a half palm Vx is already obsolete. I remember when color screen was just a luxury, now its standard, plus SD expansion, USB hotsync, Palm 4.0... *sigh* this is why I hate the PDA market, forcing you to upgrade on a regular basis, but I think I will hold off for something better like a 128MB storage (besides the SD expansion), HIGH resolution color screen, multimedia capabilities (Clie does this, but I want more), at least 100Mhz Dragonball-CPU or some equivalent.

Re:ack.

[Jonny 290]

Is it obsolete, though? Has it lost any functionality for YOU?

Stay on the bleeding edge, pay for the privilege. Go with what you know and like, save some bucks, and deal with not having the shiniest and most glittery toy in the office.

Go on and be proud of your Vx, sir. I'll continue to flip open my 3xe and jot down appointments (and calculate subnets, and read Slashdot Light Mode, and browse my mailing lists, and play Soko-ban, and on and on and on...) with the best of them. :)

Re:Handspring's last PDA? Or not?

[PigleT]

"It appears to me that Donna Dubinsky's announcement was a mistake. The expensive phone/PDA Treo has not sold well, probably simply because it is expensive and times are tough right now."

As soon as they produce something combining GPRS, Bluetooth, PDA (incl web-browser) and phone all at once - ideally with radio, mp3 player and GPS as a very optional extra - I'll be interested.
I don't mind something a little bit bulkier but I do hate having to take my pick of a set of features.
Oh, and if they're going to use expansion boards for things, make it possible to use 2 or more at once?

Example: I've got two nokia phones - both have GPRS (which I only use on one), one has bluetooth and the other has a radio (I now prefer internet radio instead ;)
Give me *lots* of toys all in one! ;)

When did PDA....

[Anonymous Coward]

...stop meaning "public display of affection?" I hate it when people steal acronyms.

Squishdot Troller TO THE XXXTREME!

[Vidmaster_Steve]

Fuck off Micro$oft luser. The day I use M$ technology is the day I get laid.

Well, that just about encapsulates the entire Slashdot crowd right there. Beautiful, just beautiful.

Also note that I'm posting this in Linux, and BABY, DO THE CHIXXORS FORM A LINE AROUND THE BLOCK TO MY DOOR.

Open problems with treo

[Anonymous Coward]

As a tech junkie, here's what's still missing from treo:

- no backlit keyboard - fixed
- low battery life - fixed
- no triband
- no hscsd
- no bluetooth
- keyboard make selecting "home" a slow process
- difficult to select the shortcut symbol
- do games work that use the 4 buttons "home", "menu", "calculator" and "find"?
- phonebook: can't hide speed-dial
- phonebook: can't chose which screen appears first
- no voicedialing

Well, I hope the other problems get fixed as well...

Mention it more

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this the "how many times can I mention Donna Dubinsky's name in a post" post?

You're freakin' tedious. Just tedious.

Of course you got the shaft

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the better computer lies: "It's expandable!" Er, no, it's disposable.

Is that a lump in your pocket?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or are you just happy to beam me?

treo

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like that plastic cover is going to snap right off.

What a PDA should be......

[Anonymous Coward]

This still seems lacking to me...pulling out this large and (yes) geeky looking phone to talk through just doesn't suit my needs.
Personally I want an Ipaq, primarily because I feel more comfortable with it than the palm's. But here's the problem I want to use it as a phone, but having to reach inside my pocket and bring out this cumbersome looking thing to dial a number or pick up the phone is a pain...and secondly I don't want to have the wire/headset dangling from my jacket.
Now does anyone know if you can get the bluetooth enabled Ipaq, with the plug in card for your phone network working with this:
http://www.ericsson.com/infocenter/news/Blu etooth_ headset.html
I would love to use this little headset to pick up my calls by pressing the button, and also dial the calls using voice recognition. but:-
a) Is it compatible with the Ipaq?
b) Does the phone software on the Ipaq have voice recognition?
So do any of u guys know? or even know of a similar product/setup?

Re:Why do we scream at each other?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that Jim Morrison?

dropping the springboard..

[Lumpy]

about damned time.. why oh why did they cripple their product by using something as silly as a non-standard slot?

Although it seems that many of the PDA makers are getting that clue... even the ipaq now has one without the overpriced, oversided backpack.

Re:dropping the springboard..

[HunterD]

you are totally missing the point of the springboard. with the springboard, I can use almost ALL memory expansion types. Smartmedia, CompactFlash, MMC, hell, even the Sony Memory stick. Beyond that, there is no reason based upon the specs for SD & Springboard that you couldn't make an SD adapter.

who cares if it's non standard - when it lets you use ALL the standards.

screw being stuck with a single expansion slot type - now that's crippling.

when am I ever going to be able to stick a compact flash from my camara into an SD slot? oh yeah, this side of never....

Re:dropping the springboard..

[negacao]

Uh, well, an MMC to SD card adapter might work there...

Myself, I use the Toshiba "Pocket PC" e310; very thin, with only an SD slot. :-) (Which is usually connected via my convertor to a 512 mb CF card.)

You were warned

[word munger]

Handspring announced when the 180 came out that the color version would be out a few months later. Since you *had* to be an early adopter, you paid the price....

Re:You were warned

[pkalaher]

Yea, no kidding. Handspring just did what every consumer electronics company does with their product cycle.

Its the standard thing; when they announced there would be $100 off the 180, I knew they were end-of-lifing or bringing out someting new.

I didn't want color, so I got a 180g.

Money, where mouth is

[FallLine]

I think you underestimate it. Sure, you can't multi-task, but if I had the choice between having the ability to occassionally make use of multi-tasking features on a PDA and the vastly superior battery life (especially when you combine phone + pocketPC), I'd choose battery life every time. This is especially true when these highly evolved and used applications can find pretty decent ways to fake multitasking ability (e.g., polling for calls and suspending to memory). What's more, I believe you're underestimating the design and usability factors that come into play here, e.g., the placement of a proper keyboard, buttons, UI, battery, size, time to pull it out/open, and so on can make a huge difference in a device's utility and its ultimate success. In short, I assert that the Treo has a better chance of taking the combination market than the PocketPC based units. Time shall tell.

In any event, I'm going to buy a Treo because it suits my needs very well. The only thing that has caused me to hestitate was the question of GSM coverage.

Handspring: Loosing It

[skribble]

I've owned 3 handsprings (Currently I have the Edge). I generally like the handhelds, but I'll avoid them in the future...

Why? Well... they aren't flash upgradable. They said that they could accomplish all of this in other upgrades, however they can't. And while they say they are fully Palm compatible, they aren't. Further more, they don't seem comitted to solving the problems there incompatibilities create.

Example... Months ago Palm released the Palm Desktop for OS X. This is totally uncompatible with Handsping Visors (and Treo's apparently). Not only does it freak out whenever you sync, according to Handspring *if* you do manages to sync, you can't go back. Now if this was a minor little difference, you would think that Handspring could patch the desktop software and make a version available that worked with OS X, and clearly if they cared this could have been done some time ago, yet OS X users are still waiting.

Now if I had and actuall Palm, or one of those cool Sony's, I'd be set. But now I'm stuck with a deveice that I can't sync with my primary computer.

Blah...

Re:Handspring: Loosing It

[Bearpaw]

Months ago Palm released the Palm Desktop for OS X. This is totally uncompatible with Handsping Visors (and Treo's apparently).

Dunno about Treos, but Palm Desktop for OS X works just fine with my Visor Deluxe. (Note that according to Handspring, they don't officially recommend using the Palm Desktop for OS X, and they're working on their own version. See here.

Re:Handspring: Loosing It

[m0nkyman]

If you want to sync, install Palm Desktop for OSX, and before syncing, delete the updates in /Applications/Palm/Palm OS Updates/

It'll work. I fubarred my palm, and had to do a hard reset on my Visor Deluxe a couple of times til I figured that out.

Works like a charm now.. All I'm waiting for now is a few more conduits.. most specifically AvantGo.

User guides

[Anonymous Coward]

for the very nerdy, here are the user guides for the treo 270 and 90. Enjoy!

Visorphone to Treo price break

[Bearpaw]

See here

Re:Visorphone to Treo price break

[GMontag]

See here

Holy crap!!! Way kewell!! A bit pricey at $499 after trade, but hey the $200 trade in credit is just a little less than what I paid for the VisorPro (VisorPhone was "free").

Hummm... if I return the eyemodule2, that shaves things down to $239 or so...

Dang, you just made my "exclusive" friends list doode!

Visor Price Drops.

[Liquid(TJ)]

Anything that drives down the price of my future Prism is A-OK in my book!

Why dosn't some one include the laser keyboard?

[outofpaper]

Why won't any one start including that laser keyboard, we all saw a while back, in their hand helds? It seems rather obvious that a tiny key board is just not going to be an efective method of data entry not mater if you are stationary or on the go. Graf. or other hand writing recognition works well if your moving about and when siting in a class room or a board meating a proper keyboard is the most efective method of writing in a hand held. It would just be realy nice to not have to tote around my folding keyboard.

Re:Handspring's last PDA? Or not?

[Locutus]

That sounds about right. Dubinsky killed Visor sales and in one quarter Handspring went from just over 20% of the PalmOS market to below 15%. She screwed with their money flow by announcing the end of the Visor/PDA line. With the Treo not doing so well (47,000 shipped and only 13,000 sold) they NEED to build on the PDA lineup again. Had they just built Bluetooth into the 90 it would have all made sense but the current Treo 90 doesn't fit their "PLAN", or at least the one they are telling their investors.

Personally, I think they will be lucky of they make it to this time next year. Dubinsky shot both of Handsprings feet off and now they are running on bloody stubs.... Dumb move. I think the Treo is dumb too since a Bluetooth phone (no display) would be cheap and work well with a Bluetooth PDA (color or B/W). IMHO

LoB

HP j0rnada ownz your ass!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah it's so l33t that HP no longer produces it. Idiot.

Tiny Keyboard vs Graffitti

[mutz]

I had a PDA that I could connect a full size collapsible keyboard to and it was great for travel...I did not have to sacrifice speed. Neither of the new Handspring Treos have an option for Graffiti, you are stuck with a tiny hunt and peck board. What good is QWERTY if I can't use 2 hands?

I have upgraded recently to the Treo 180 with Graffiti. I can write with a pen much faster and over the years have mostly perfected my graffiti skills. I hope this trend for tiny keyboards stops soon, or someone figures out a better way to handle input.

addicted to pdas

[calarts_nutmeg]

I've got two pdas, to me a mark of a real obsessive nerd, I've got the handspring platinum with the handspring phone module, and the sharp zaurus. I use the palm mostly as a phone and will probably replace with a little nokia, cause I'm totally addicted to zaurus, being able to run vi and shell scripts on a handheld, and also create png images is very addicting.