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Taiwan Joining Chinese Royalty-free Video Disk Effort
BeardStreet writes "In an attempt to stop the flow of royalties to the various DVD licensing bodies (e.g. DVD6C, MPEG-LA, etc.), 19 Taiwanese companies have come up with a royalty-free DVD format called EVD which is compatible with a similar effort going on in China, called AVD. Capacity is about 1 GB higher. Their goal is to avoid having to shell out US $15 to $20 per-player royalties. EVD/AVD players will still be able to play traditional DVD disks but will not have the official DVD logo on them, thus avoiding the licensing fees. It's a political issue as well, in that China needs to balance the flow of royalty money going out of their country, especially with DVD players falling rapidly in price."
No challenge at all.
C.L.I.T.
The
Recipe Troll Presents:
Vital Hot Dog Statistics
The Council estimates Americans will consume more than 2 billion hot dogs during National Hot Dog Month this July!
Let's get some US and European support in on this one and take over the market! But seriously, this is a really good thing we need to support these open standards to avoid the Information Nazi's.
Later,
Phil
suck it, trebek!
--
pants ahoy
n/m
Is Slashdot hacked? Why was there a strange, animated bright red/bright yellow logo on the front page with hebrew or hindi letters on it? Why clicking on the "Read more" showed only a windows network neighbourhood logo - and no, it was not a IE/Windows glitch. I read Slashdot on Linux using Mozilla RC3.
Now, if only someone would do that in the US too
Err... wait... no... Communism is bad.
Booooo China!
Way to go! - This belongs in the same ranks at the (Ogg) Vorbis Project.
If the Chinese and Taiwanese want to bypass the DVD tax then lets hope they don't mind annoying the studios as well and make their players region-free.
Can the studios detect these players and make sure their disks won't play on them? They did that super-new region coding thing a while back didn't they?
George bush is a moron.
I'm hardly surprised that the second-largest source of software and movie piracy in the world would want to create a "royalty-free" format. Do their people have the ability to create, or are they just parasites who live off the work of white, American artists?
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." - George Bush
If there are patents on the DVD format and these EVD players can read DVDs, it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't infringe those patents.
OTOH, if the royalties are for a trademark license, they may be able to escape by not using the DVD logo.
Ok... Say it with me...
G to da mutha phukken oatse
C to da mutha phukken izzzzzzex
HellZ yeah, you know how it is bizznitch
[slashdot.org][slashdot.org]dumbass[slashdot . rg]
-- You are such a fucking fag
TAIPEI, Taiwan -- Separate consortia in Taiwan and China are pecking away at a new DVD format that would enable disk and player manufacturers to evade royalty payments to Japanese, American and European companies, which now have a lock on the technology. They hope to introduce the specification by the end of the year.
More than a year ago, China said it was developing a format called Advanced Versatile Disc (AVD) that would be used only in the Greater China region, including Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau. Some considered it bluster, a ploy by Chinese manufacturers to strike a better deal on royalty payments to the DVD Forum. But the establishment of a Taiwanese consortium now adds greater substance to the threat.
After several months of exploring the feasibility of AVD, 19 Taiwanese companies quietly came together in April to start work on a next-generation standard that would not use the format specified by the DVD Forum as a baseline technology.
The Taiwan standard is being called Enhanced Versatile Disc (EVD) and is basically compatible with China's AVD. The capacity potential is about 1 Gbyte higher than that of today's single-sided, one- and two-layer DVDs. Current red-laser technology will be implemented.
The consensus here is that with the help of Taiwan, China will attempt to repeat an earlier effort in which it developed Super Video CD (SVCD) as a foil to the Video CD format, allowing manufacturers to duck royalty payments to Philips, JVC, Sony and Matsushita. "Mainland China is hoping for a breakthrough," said Wang Shyh-Yeu,the R&D director at disk maker Ritek Corp., which is part of the newly formed EVD consortium. "We hope we can create some patents through this standard but, to be honest, it is very difficult. The compression part is dominated by U.S. and Japanese companies."
An Acer Labs spokesman said, "It is reasonable to believe the Chinese are looking for a way around the patents," but he declined to say whether Acer is working on EVD. Taiwan's largest supplier of DVD chip sets, MediaTek Inc., could not be reached for comment.
Although China represents a small share of DVD player sales, it is growing in prominence. Global DVD player shipments last year rose to 30 million units from 19 million in 2000, according to Cahners In-Stat Group. About 3.5 million were sold in China, where Video CD players are still mainstream. The projection for 2002 DVD player shipments is 50 million units, with about 8 million going to China.
Regional-format developers hope to avoid $15-$20 in DVD-player royalty fees.
Increasing pressure to pay royalties, combined with falling DVD player prices, has intensified efforts to develop China's own standard.
The DVD6C licensing group, composed of Hitachi, Matsushita, Mitsubishi, Toshiba, JVC and AOL Time Warner, earlier this month laid out a plan to woo domestic Chinese manufacturers to the group's royalty scheme of up to $4 per unit. The 6C group offered royalty-free sales through Dec. 31 of this year to units built for the domestic Chinese market. The waiver is available only to manufacturers that sign a license before June 30. There is still no word on whether Chinese manufacturers will buy into the plan.
Get in line
Separately, the so-called 3C group -- consisting of Philips, Sony and Pioneer -- is also demanding that Chinese manufacturers begin paying royalties on DVD players. Any party that makes, uses, imports or sells products covered by the licensed patents is expected to contact both the 6C and 3C groups and pay them separate fees. Furthermore, because the DVD format uses the MPEG-2 video standard, another separate royalty must be paid to MPEG LA, the MPEG licensing authority.
All the assorted payments add up to $15 to $20 per unit, said Michelle Abraham, senior analyst at Cahners In-Stat. Besides MPEG, 6C and 3C, they include payments for Dolby sound and to owners of various copy protection systems. Most Chinese manufacturers have refused to pay, just as they refused to pay Video CD royalties.
Emerging splinter formats such as EVD or AVD are keeping consumer electronics and silicon vendors on their toes. A Philips spokeswoman said, "We do not know how EVD is going to be different from DVD. We have been informed only recently about these developments."
Though details are still sketchy, many industry sources suggested that the new format will offer the Chinese domestic market high-resolution video -- some say high definition (HD), others say full D1 video using red-laser technology -- in time for the 2008 Olympics in China.
"For a long time now the Chinese government in Beijing has wanted to create [China's own] IP [intellectual property] to balance the flow of DVD royalties," said Didier LeGall, vice president of home media products at LSI Logic Corp. (Milpitas, Calif.). "They have been working on adding HD on a red laser. I think it is appealing because HD is the future, and the Chinese government is very keen to use consumer HD to showcase the 2008 Olympics."
But LeGall cautioned, "The key to any new format and its credibility is the content, and this is the biggest unknown on any HD-DVD format." He added, "You can expect Hollywood to be particularly concerned with the potential HD piracy."
Content, compatibility concerns
Another question is exportability. "The biggest problem with [a new China format] is, can Chinese OEMs export this proprietary player?" said In-Stat's Abraham. "Yes, China is a big market, but the United States and Europe still remain by far the two largest DVD markets."
Several industry sources confirmed that emerging EVD or AVD players will be capable of playing back both EVD/AVD disks and DVD disks. Given that DVD is already a huge success on the global market, an attempt to develop a new-format player that does not play DVD disks is suicidal, they said.
The next question is whether DVD-format license holders can go after Chinese OEMs for royalties on products labeled as EVD or AVD players. The question here is whether a proprietary product that plays both EVD/ AVD and DVD disks can be considered, technically, not a DVD player. The distinction is crucial to many that hold essential DVD-format patents.
Clearly, any player that plays back a DVD disk is infringing on the DVD patent portfolio, observers said. "It's either you do or you don't," said one industry executive. But other industry sources in Japan acknowledged that if players bear no official DVD logo, it would be difficult for the 6C or 3C groups to go after them.
Both of those groups are prepared to stop imports of unlicensed DVD players and to bring lawsuits against companies that ship them.
"In February, the EU [European Union] held shipments of 10,000 players due to royalty nonpayment at the urging of the 3C group," In-Stat's Abraham said. She also pointed out that Sony Corp. won a suit in the United States against Apex, and that Apex is now paying 3C royalties as a result.
Chip companies are split in their assessment of how significant an EVD or AVD format might become. A spokeswoman at Zoran Corp. said, "A majority of our customers [in China] are interested in exporting their players to the U.S. and European markets. They want to build players that abide by the standard." LSI Logic, armed with an HD-capable multiformat media processor called Domino, has "communicated with many people in China," LeGall said. "We are not against this format [but] we are perplexed" about where its proponents could obtain compelling HD-DVD content.
Interestingly, Taiwan's largest research group is leading the EVD effort, at the request of Chinese counterparts to help advance the spec. The quasigovernmental Industrial Technology Research Institute (ITRI) helped bring together the consortium here, despite its role as Taiwan's representative to the DVD Forum.
Slightly different
Derray Huang, deputy general director of ITRI's Optical Electronics and Systems Lab, said the logic format of EVD will differ slightly from DVD's, but he declined to offer specifics. "Some technology is in the DVD range, but some is different," Huang said, adding that a year-end introduction is possible. "It depends on the key components, like chip sets." All DVD player components will be the same, he said, with the exception of an upgrade for the chip set that would allow both DVDs and EVDs to play on the same machine.
Huang acknowledged that the DVD Forum would not be happy with ITRI's decision to pursue a separate format, but he maintained that the move is no different from what several key forum members have also done. Earlier this year, nine companies -- including Matsushita, Philips, Samsung, Sharp and Sony -- said they would develop a successor to DVD technology, the Blu-ray Disc, a denser, blue-violet-laser-based medium that is not compatible with current DVD technology. The companies said they would conduct the work outside of the DVD Forum.
"We hope there can be one single format," Huang said, "and maybe someday we can talk with the forum about EVD." In the meantime, ITRI is also developing Blu-ray products, such as disks and pickup heads.
Not everyone in China and Taiwan is backing EVD or AVD, however. Bo Wu, founder and chief executive officer of EnReach, which helped China develop its SVCD specification in 1997, said, "EVD is more like a full D1 MPEG-2 version of SVCD." He said his company is not involved in the effort, "nor are most of the major DVD OEMs in China as far as I know."
With DVD player prices on track to drop to about $70 by year's end, Wu said, "To us, it is too late [to foist a new format on] the market. . . . All players will have to play DVD disks, because there are so many titles out there now, inside China."
It's a political issue as well, in that China needs to balance the flow of royalty money going out of their country...
You mean *true* piracy (vs. the MPAA accusations against coders) does not curb the flow of royalties enough already? Wow, these Commies are pretty crafty!
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
China said it was developing a format called Advanced Versatile Disc (AVD) that would be used only in the Greater China region
This format would only be used in China. Makes sense, since there's no way they could sell these players in the US or Europe because it would infringe patents. Even if it doesn't display the logo it still decodes CSS, MPEG, AC3, all of which are patented.
They'll still get exported, from stores like Lik Sang.. but who knows, customs will probably seize them at the border.
In case the site gets /.'d:
Taiwan joins Chinese effort on proprietary DVD format
By Mike Clendenin and Junko Yoshida
EE Times
May 24, 2002 (4:49 p.m. EST)
TAIPEI, Taiwan -- Separate consortia in Taiwan and China are pecking away at a new DVD format that would enable disk and player manufacturers to
evade royalty payments to Japanese, American and European companies, which now have a lock on the technology. They hope to introduce the specification by the end of the year.
More than a year ago, China said it was developing a format called Advanced Versatile Disc (AVD) that would be used only in the Greater China region, including Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau. Some considered it bluster, a ploy by Chinese manufacturers to strike a better deal on royalty payments to the DVD Forum. But the establishment of a Taiwanese consortium now adds greater substance to the threat.
After several months of exploring the feasibility of AVD, 19 Taiwanese companies quietly came together in April to start work on a next-generation standard that would not use the format specified by the DVD Forum as a baseline technology.
The Taiwan standard is being called Enhanced Versatile Disc (EVD) and is basically compatible with China's AVD. The capacity potential is about 1 Gbyte higher than that of today's single-sided, one- and two-layer DVDs. Current red-laser technology will be implemented.
The consensus here is that with the help of Taiwan, China will attempt to repeat an earlier effort in which it developed Super Video CD (SVCD) as a foil to the Video CD format, allowing manufacturers to duck royalty payments to Philips, JVC, Sony and Matsushita. "Mainland China is hoping for a breakthrough," said Wang Shyh-Yeu,the R&D director at disk maker Ritek Corp., which is part of the newly formed EVD consortium. "We hope we can create some patents through this standard but, to be honest, it is very difficult. The compression part is dominated by U.S. and Japanese companies."
An Acer Labs spokesman said, "It is reasonable to believe the Chinese are looking for a way around the patents," but he declined to say whether Acer is working on EVD. Taiwan's largest supplier of DVD chip sets, MediaTek Inc., could not be reached for comment.
Although China represents a small share of DVD player sales, it is growing in prominence. Global DVD player shipments last year rose to 30 million units from 19 million in 2000, according to Cahners In-Stat Group. About 3.5 million were sold in China, where Video CD players are still mainstream. The projection for 2002 DVD player shipments is 50 million units, with about 8 million going to China.
Increasing pressure to pay royalties, combined with falling DVD player prices, has intensified efforts to develop China's own standard.
The DVD6C licensing group, composed of Hitachi, Matsushita, Mitsubishi, Toshiba, JVC and AOL Time Warner, earlier this month laid out a plan to woo domestic Chinese manufacturers to the group's royalty scheme of up to $4 per unit. The 6C group offered royalty-free sales through Dec. 31 of this year to units built for the domestic Chinese market. The waiver is available only to manufacturers that sign a license before June 30. There is still no word on whether Chinese manufacturers will buy into the plan.
Get in line
Separately, the so-called 3C group -- consisting of Philips, Sony and Pioneer -- is also demanding that Chinese manufacturers begin paying royalties on DVD players. Any party that makes, uses, imports or sells products covered by the licensed patents is expected to contact both the 6C and 3C groups and pay them separate fees. Furthermore, because the DVD format uses the MPEG-2 video standard, another separate royalty must be paid to MPEG LA, the MPEG licensing authority.
All the assorted payments add up to $15 to $20 per unit, said Michelle Abraham, senior analyst at Cahners In-Stat. Besides MPEG, 6C and 3C, they include payments for Dolby sound and to owners of various copy protection systems. Most Chinese manufacturers have refused to pay, just as they refused to pay Video CD royalties.
Emerging splinter formats such as EVD or AVD are keeping consumer electronics and silicon vendors on their toes. A Philips spokeswoman said, "We do not know how EVD is going to be different from DVD. We have been informed only recently about these developments."
Though details are still sketchy, many industry sources suggested that the new format will offer the Chinese domestic market high-resolution video -- some say high definition (HD), others say full D1 video using red-laser technology -- in time for the 2008 Olympics in China.
"For a long time now the Chinese government in Beijing has wanted to create [China's own] IP [intellectual property] to balance the flow of DVD royalties," said Didier LeGall, vice president of home media products at LSI Logic Corp. (Milpitas, Calif.). "They have been working on adding HD on a red laser. I think it is appealing because HD is the future, and the Chinese government is very keen to use consumer HD to showcase the 2008 Olympics."
But LeGall cautioned, "The key to any new format and its credibility is the content, and this is the biggest unknown on any HD-DVD format." He
added, "You can expect Hollywood to be particularly concerned with the potential HD piracy."
Content, compatibility concerns
Another question is exportability. "The biggest problem with [a new China format] is, can Chinese OEMs export this proprietary player?" said In-Stat's Abraham. "Yes, China is a big market, but the United States and Europe still remain by far the two largest DVD markets."
Several industry sources confirmed that emerging EVD or AVD players will be capable of playing back both EVD/AVD disks and DVD disks. Given that DVD is already a huge success on the global market, an attempt to develop a new-format player that does not play DVD disks is suicidal, they said.
The next question is whether DVD-format license holders can go after Chinese OEMs for royalties on products labeled as EVD or AVD players. The question here is whether a proprietary product that plays both EVD/ AVD and DVD disks can be considered, technically, not a DVD player. The distinction is crucial to many that hold essential DVD-format patents.
Clearly, any player that plays back a DVD disk is infringing on the DVD patent portfolio, observers said. "It's either you do or you don't," said one industry executive. But other industry sources in Japan acknowledged that if players bear no official DVD logo, it would be difficult for the 6C or 3C groups to go after them.
Both of those groups are prepared to stop imports of unlicensed DVD players and to bring lawsuits against companies that ship them.
"In February, the EU [European Union] held shipments of 10,000 players due to royalty nonpayment at the urging of the 3C group," In-Stat's Abraham said. She also pointed out that Sony Corp. won a suit in the United States against Apex, and that Apex is now paying 3C royalties as a result.
Chip companies are split in their assessment of how significant an EVD or AVD format might become. A spokeswoman at Zoran Corp. said, "A majority of our customers [in China] are interested in exporting their players to the U.S. and European markets. They want to build players that abide by the standard." LSI Logic, armed with an HD-capable multiformat media processor called Domino, has "communicated with many people in China," LeGall said. "We are not against this format [but] we are perplexed" about where its proponents could obtain compelling HD-DVD content.
Interestingly, Taiwan's largest research group is leading the EVD effort, at the request of Chinese counterparts to help advance the spec. The quasigovernmental Industrial Technology Research Institute (ITRI) helped bring together the consortium here, despite its role as Taiwan's representative to the DVD Forum.
Slightly different
Derray Huang, deputy general director of ITRI's Optical Electronics and Systems Lab, said the logic format of EVD will differ slightly from DVD's, but he declined to offer specifics. "Some technology is in the DVD range, but some is different," Huang said, adding that a year-end introduction is possible. "It depends on the key components, like chip sets." All DVD player components will be the same, he said, with the exception of an upgrade for the chip set that would allow both DVDs and EVDs to play on the same machine.
Huang acknowledged that the DVD Forum would not be happy with ITRI's decision to pursue a separate format, but he maintained that the move is no different from what several key forum members have also done. Earlier this year, nine companies -- including Matsushita, Philips, Samsung, Sharp and Sony -- said they would develop a successor to DVD technology, the Blu-ray Disc, a denser, blue-violet-laser-based medium that is not compatible with current DVD technology. The companies said they would conduct the work outside of the DVD Forum.
"We hope there can be one single format," Huang said, "and maybe someday we can talk with the forum about EVD." In the meantime, ITRI is also developing Blu-ray products, such as disks and pickup heads.
Not everyone in China and Taiwan is backing EVD or AVD, however. Bo Wu, founder and chief executive officer of EnReach, which helped China develop its SVCD specification in 1997, said, "EVD is more like a full D1 MPEG-2 version of SVCD." He said his company is not involved in the effort, "nor are most of the major DVD OEMs in China as far as I know."
With DVD player prices on track to drop to about $70 by year's end, Wu said, "To us, it is too late [to foist a new format on] the market. . . . All players will have to play DVD disks, because there are so many titles out there now, inside China."
Despite what the article says, these players will either owe royalties, or they won't be able to play the standard DVD media.
The royalties aren't for the use of the DVD trademark (well, the bulk of them, anyway). They're for the use of patents.
Now if they're really clever, they might be able to implement alternative techniques that, while producing the same results, don't use the means that the patents cover. Considering the number of DVD patents involved, this seems unlikely. (Sure, you could avoid the Macrovision and region-coding patents easily enough--don't include those "features.")
Pirated cheaper EVD/AVDs being sold around the world, making the movie industry see even more red than before.
If I were the guys who own DVD (Phillips and friends), I would demand that the fee is paid in the store, when someone buys the player.
This doesn't sound like a step towards a better movie format for everyone, this sounds like VHS/Betamax all over again.
I could be wrong though;) We'll just have to see what happens.
Well, a great idea from the Chinese and Taiwanese inventors. Maybe they should email someone and tell them about it. Oh wait, they can't, because we've all blocked them for spamming us...
With the support of 19 companies, this will get very interesting very fast. The only reason I own a DVD player is that I was able to get one of those APEX deals that are free of regions and macrovision and those other insane measures that take away from the consumer's ability to enjoy what they purchase.
... the DVDCCA. And I hope it does.
If EVD is open and unlicensed then it will do one of two things, if not both: A) Expose the region coding for distribution control, or B) isolate the US (and possibly Canada) from getting any of these devices by legislating them illegal.
While we USians may not like the isolation, those who have the gold make the rules. This kind of open format will only help to spread the distribution of films made in other parts of the world, eventually hurting the DVDCCA and MPAA.
There's nothing like having inferior entertainment channels forced upon us by law and greed when we could all share and share alike the distribution method (like PAL and GSM).
fuck the DVD6C, MPEG-LA, etc, fuck the DVD6C, MPEG-LA, etc, fuckem.
I want 2D games back.
You'd think people who devote their lives to developing digital media technologies (DVD, HDTV, etc.) would care enough not to let greed and politics get in the way of the standards necessary to making these technologies truly useful.
is it won't play in all the current DVD players and will take a while before DVD players will be able to play them. How useful will this be if almost no DVD players can play them? Microsoft will have the same problem as they are trying to get DVD players to use windows media video format.
its about time!
lets get it here in NA...then we'll watch those mpaa bastards squirm.....
We're like rats, in some experiment! -- George Costanza
After all, if it was patented, there wouldn't be any need to reverse engineer it, since the spec would be public. And it also wouldn't be covered by trade secret legislation in California.
--
E_NOSIG
n/t
You've got to be kidding!
"It's hot dog time!"
More like:
"It's fag time!"
Have some respect!
My only concern would be that MPAA & Fiends would try to block this. I don't think the DMCA can touch this but would the CBTBA (something like that) if it ever gets passed do something to this? If they arn't able to make up a legal obstacle my guess is they will just put something readable only in the new format on their DVDs that will crash the new players (though could they still cal them DVDs then?). Anyone else have any ideas on what the MPAA might try to pull to kill this technology, I'm sure they're not just going to take it lying down.
I stole this Sig
Lets get kernel support for these things damn quick!!!
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Bunch of different, theoretically compatible standards - international patent law called into play, with those Damned Communists trying to avoid paying their patent fees....
:-)
You know, if they keep this shit up, they might just distract the MPAA from the Internet long enough for me to finish building my archive
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
So far the other open standard produced by China has been pretty good SVCD I've used it for music videos and DVD rips. The quality is pretty good considering the low bit rate, but the lower resolution helps there. The only thing that sucks about it is the DVD players that support will only support 2/3 of the standard. It'll have the video and 2 audio tracks, but no subtitles or vice versa.
There was a second format called CVD for china video disc didn't take off outside of China and still isn't that big there AFIAK.
OMG BIG PENIS ATE MY SOUP
Despite what the article says, these players will either owe royalties, or they won't be able to play the standard DVD media.
Yea, they can owe all you and I wish for them to, but payments would not exactly fit into their "royalty avoidance" scheme.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
I like the sounds of this, but I wonder about the legality of selling these players in the US. If the player is capable of playing DVDs, then the technology inside will necessarily involve either unlicensed or reverse-engineered decoding software. The former would be piracy/IP theft, and the latter (legitimate IMHO) would run afoul of the DMCA.
What is your Slash Rating?
Can't ya tell? :)
-- You are such a fucking fag
I don't think this will replace DVD format, however I hope this become the replacement for VCD format. VCD has always been nice in that, a lot of DVD players support it, plus you can make VCD yourself. No region lock out. If in the future, most DVD players also support this much like they support VCD playback, this will allow consumers to be able to make their own media that plays back in standard DVD players
Is it just me, or is the industry generating too many different media formats in too short a time? I know from a profit standpoint, corporations stand to benefit from releasing newer technologies forcing customers to replace their old technology with newer. And this is to be expected - to a certain degree. It seems, at least to me, that recently the rate at which new media standards are being produced is far higher than it was a few years ago. Not too far back, VHS reigned supreme, and it has been virtually the> standard format for decades. Now DVD technology is in the process of phasing out VHS, but it seems we are bombarded with new and improved formats (like this new extra 1-Gig capacity) that won't benefit the customers to a great extent. It doesn't seem that these new EVD's are going to replace DVD's because it is not a substantial breakthrough in technology. Big deal.. an extra 30 min. of "behind the scenes" on your typical DVD movie. Is it worth introducting new media formats to simply avoid licencing fees?
free ipod? yeah.
Several industry sources confirmed that emerging EVD or AVD players will be capable of playing back both EVD/AVD disks and DVD disks.
But other industry sources in Japan acknowledged that if players bear no official DVD logo, it would be difficult for the 6C or 3C groups to go after them.
It's sad that some companies in Asia are going to get away with making their own DVD players for the sole purpose of cheating the DVD patent holders while some poor European kid who writes DeCSS so that he can play his legally purchased DVDs on Linux gets crucified to the fullest extent of the law.
GMD
watch this
Okay, now I am as much a supporter of "free as in freedom" as any other good slashbot. But while reading this story more carefully, and discussing it with some of the "regulars", I believe I have reconsidered.
All of the innovation that we have seen, from the triumph of the Wright brothers, to the soaring skyscrapers that make this country beautiful, has been due to the drive of a few precious individuals. Their motivation? Money.
Take away the royalties that protect them and urge them to develop new things, and we're back in the Dark Ages. Like it or not, intellectual property rights is the hot-button issue that sculpts the political landscape.
Where would we be without it?
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
i agree with this post.
We'll never see these players in the US.
The MPAA will see to it that customs holds these at the border, and the parties hoping to receive the shipment will be tossed in the slammer.
Basically, these will be considered controlled substances like drugs and whoever's trying to get ahold of one will be treated as a narcotics dealer/user.
obviously no deficiencies vs. no obvious deficiencies
Look on this site for players that can defeat the new Regional Code Enhancement (RCE) protection. Also, apparently all Shinco DVD players can defeat RCE protection with a few steps.
I wonder if this is the type of thing that could be impacted by the recent overturning of a ruling by the special federal appeals court. Apparently the U.S. Supreme Court felt that the ruling went too far by allowing competitors to make minor changes and then applying for new patents. At a minimum it could open the door for existing patent holders to delay things by filing lawsuits against the new technology on the grounds that it is similar and not sufficiently different.
"Both of those groups are prepared to stop imports of unlicensed DVD players and to bring lawsuits against companies that ship them."
Anything that plays the DVD format will still be considered as infringing on the DVD patents.
Once again, we here in the freedom loving west will be protected from having to decide if we want cheaper and better technology. After all it is much better when a group of companies work together and decide to impose a standard on the world and then charge us extra for the privilege.
Why don't people go after these companies for Anti-trust violations? When standards are used by an exclusive group of companies to impose market control at the expense of consumers, it is illegal under US law. Companies are supposed to compete with eachother, otherwise it isn't a free market.
Not trying to be a troll, but I believe such DVD disks if proved to be popular, would lend themselves nicely to a black market of DVD movies in China.
DVD media companies would have to pay no royalties, which in turn increases their profits by selling these DVDs to the black market.
No offence, but this is China, it has a thriving black market. One of the reasons why you don't see Console manufacturers selling their consoles and games in this country.
The following movies will not be released for EVD or AVD:
Elizabeth
The Last Emperor
The Madness of King George
Get it? Royalty-free? Get it?
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
Whatever happened to the US's "one china" policy? This article would surely piss off the govt of china, who claim that Taiwan is part of China.
I believe the official US line is still "one china".
Now there's a pair i didn't expect to see playing together...
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
Emphasis mine.
n/m/
I don't know what to say
Okay well that's all well and good, but are they going to be able to support CSS decryption? Seems to me that their ability to play DVD's is almost useless if they can't decrypt CSS, seeing as most discs require it. So they still end up having to pay royalties and having to enforce region encoding.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
There was a scifi book and part of the backstory was that the Chinese had crushed the US economy by basically pirating EVERYTHING and making it available on some global satellite net.
Maybe this is the beginning?
And the fact that all DVD players sold in China come bundled with Episode 2 just goes to show you the level of dedication the Chinese market brings to the consumer. They go that extra mile you just don't see in larger American stores like BestBuy.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
we already have dvd-r, dvd-ram, dvd-rw, dvd+rw... why not add a lower cost higher storage capacity alternative?
i'm against intelectuall property, but legally can they do this? if it plays dvd's, it supports the format, how can they get around not paying the royalties? sounds like the communist state is just flexing their muscles, not that there's anything wrong with communism, just the leaders!
--fetch daddy's blue fright wig, i must be handsome when i release my rage
The MPAA will see to it that customs holds these at the border
If they try to do this the logical counter move is to file a complaint with the World Trade Organization stating the case that the Regional Settings is a deliberate and unlawful inpediment to free trade. The risk of this being declared illegal combined with suits for Punitive damages subsequently filed in the US courts is high.
MPAA will give in long before that as the down side grossly outweighs the alternative.
NB: Write your representative in the country you are in and complain about Regional Settings. Its amazing it has survived so long.
Help fight continental drift.
Well, not so much in those words, but I do like the principle of the thing. Chinese, particularly rural don't have a lot of cash to swing and eliminating Itellectual Property tax is the next logical step, as pretty much everything else has been shaved to mass produce electronics. (It's still a big deal to the PRC to keep up/improve the standard of living for their base of support (i.e. the majority of chinese who don't wear western suits and talk on cell phones). I was pretty stunned to see 5" B/W TV sets in the grocery store for $12.99 (yeah, that cheap!)
I imagine the powers that be (Hollywood lobbyists, lawyers, etc.) will push something forbidding any of these open technologies from reaching US shores (because it doesn't kowtow to their wishes, of course.)
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
It's Distraction by Bruce Sterling:
It's the year 2044, and America has gone to hell. A disenfranchised U.S. Air Force base has turned to highway robbery in order to pay the bills. Vast chunks of the population live nomadic lives fueled by cheap transportation and even cheaper computer power. Warfare has shifted from the battlefield to the global networks, and China holds the information edge over all comers. Global warming is raising sea level, which in turn is drowning coastal cities. And the U.S. government has become nearly meaningless. This is the world that Oscar Valparaiso would have been born into, if he'd actually been born instead of being grown in vitro by black market baby dealers. Oscar's bizarre genetic history (even he's not sure how much of him is actually human) hasn't prevented him from running one of the most successful senatorial races in history, getting his man elected by a whopping majority. But Oscar has put himself out of a job, since he'd only be a liability to his boss in Washington due to his problematic background. Instead, Oscar finds himself shuffled off to the Collaboratory, a Big Science pork barrel project that's run half by corruption and half by scientific breakthroughs. At first it seems to be a lose-lose proposition for Oscar, but soon he has his "krewe" whipped into shape and ready to take control of events. Now if only he can straighten out his love life and solve a worldwide crisis that no one else knows exists
DVD has always been light on capacity (and certain features could have been implemented better). In particular, one of the big advantages to DVD over VHS is being able to use multiple scriptable audio and text tracks, thus allowing you to subtitle and/or overdub for multiple languages. Not something we think of much here in the US, but in China/Taiwan, pretty much every release should have Mandarin, Cantonese, English, and if necessary whatever language it was originally recorded in. At least. The problem is even worse in Europe because with so many languages to cover, they're forced to skimp on audio and video quality, to say nothing of the bells and whistles we're accustomed to here. The "subtitle" tracks are not text but actually pictures of text to accomodate any font, but are limited to only four colors (two of which are are black and clear) and only to a certain sector of the screen. And there's no way to use post-press modifications(such as fan translations not available on the original).
Beyond that, DVD quality is way below that of HDTV (not that there's much of that yet). So, we really could use more space - a LOT more (FMDs and FMCs sounded promising). And a much more flexible format (allowing simple outside scripting and track replacement/overlays as well as modern compression algorithms and file formats like MPEG-4) with smarter options (like a real UTF-8 text track coupled to an on-disk vector-type font library, and full-color compressed RGB-alpha sprite/video overlay tracks). But even a 10% or so increase in capacity could make a big difference in much of the world.
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
I wouldn't really call this 'joining', Taiwan is comming up with their own incompatable (I would assume) standard from china.
Which is not very supprizing, but pretty silly given the fact that they speak the same language and the PRCs format is royalty free (or is it just royalty free for companies inside china?)
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
This is the question! If China and others decide that they want to do this, they may not be able to import these units into the US because of the CSS. If they have CSS installed, than they must pay roylty fees since this is part of the legitimate standard. So.....The question still stands - can they import them legally into the US? If the DCMA stands, the US gov't may consider this an infringement of "reverse engineering" since they aren't paying any licensing fees!
Quite possibly they are trying to create a seperate standard for Europe or just the far east?
Billions of Taiwanese and Chinese mean that they can pull a MSFT on RIAA.
When they look back on this period, I wonder if any of the RIAA apologists will realize that they signed their own death warrants by their actions?
-
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
Now there's a pair i didn't expect to see playing together...
Nothing brings mortal enemies together like a chance to make some bucks at the expense of the evil capitalist American dogs...
GMD
watch this
If China and others decide that they want to do this, they may not be able to import these units into the US because of the CSS. If they have CSS installed, than they must pay roylty fees since this is part of the legitimate standard.
Like they're worried. Face it, the market in China, Taiwan, and the asian markets is so much larger than the US market that it's scary.
I'm sure they'll weep over missing out on sales of a few million when they're not paying for many billions in new sales. NOT.
-
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
Hmmm. As a consumer, the only power I have that the corporations care
about is my power of choice. If these become available in the
U.S. then I wonder which product I will purchase:
A. A product specifically designed to violate my fair use rights.
or
B. A cheaper, better product that does not violate my fair use rights.
Go EVD!
They're including Ep 2 to show how much they love democracy... ;)
From the article, the thing that bothers me is that they are proposing to use red laser technology still. It would seem to make (a lot) more sense to use the blue lasers and go for a dramatic increase in capacity, and not just an extra 1GB.
Am I missing something? I thought thet blue lasers could still be used for the same DVD media...
What about the 100 mpg carbeurettor? (sp?) While the patents are held by whoever, dubya [read: Unocal ] wants to dig for more oil in alaska...
Not possible to detect as the video disc is passive.
No. Each title in the DVD format contains a menu program. This menu program can call the libdvd function GetPlayerManufacturer() (I'm making up a name) and die if the player manufacturer is known to be easily moddable.
Even with a passive system, the RCE discs have some valid content for all regions. An error message for the "wrong" regions is placed first on the disc before the content for the "correct" regions.
Will I retire or break 10K?
If they can circumvent the per-player fee by not displaying a DVD logo on the box, why don't they just stick to that and forego the whole EVD/AVD bullshit ?
Why not just call it a VCD player with unofficial DVD support ? The way I see it, if it can play DVDs it's going to be stuck to the licensing fees no matter what. If they're not bound by law, then the Powers That Be (tm) will buy new laws that will make it happen.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
this sounds like VHS/Betamax all over again
Granted, there are some similarities (the DVD royalties are too high - like the Beta royalties were.)
Pirated cheaper EVD/AVDs being sold around the world
Yeah, just like VHS allowed all those pirated videotapes, while beta didn't..
oh, wait.. THAT NEVER HAPPENED
Trust me, the World Trade Organization enables sleazy American business practices. It's quick to move on countries that impede American exports but slow to move on the US when it imposes tarrifs on import goods. It's a bloody farce.
I'm not too well informed on this topic, but I think this is a valid question. If they are just trying to get away from the standards fees couldn't they just make DVD players without the DVD logo? And if it's more than that then doesn't making machines that play DVDs pretty much catch them up no matter what other factors are involved?
Science may someday discover what faith has always known.
To play existing DVD's the units have to decrypt the DVD's. Several people have made comments on the legality of this and compared it to DeCSS. However, the DeCSS code has been in big trouble because the courts see it as a means to copy DVD's rather than to play them. However, these are STRICTLY PLAYBACK UNITS. The MPAA is going to have a HARD time claiming that they are devices meant to allow ripping of DVD's to share on the net. Seems to me that using code similar to DeCSS for these players is simply a case of reverse engineering the technology -- and that's protected by law as well.
Life is short: void the warranty.
I applaud the fact that Microsoft is standing firmly behind the concept. I wish more corporations would learn from the generous approach that Bill Gates showed towards BVD.
Once we have BVD for the Open Source community then the sky is the limit.
CSS used to be a trade secret. It is not and never was patented, and if they try to get a patent on it now there is plenty of "prior art," include deCSS itself. :-)
Then some rather intelligent youths in Europe figured out how to break the profoundly weak algorithm used to encrypt DVDs and restrict their playback (but not bit-for-bit copies, as most DVD-Rs were capable of doing back then, before the deCSS case and their wholesale redesign).
CSS isn't a secret anymore, indeed there are T-Shirts, songs, and 7 line perl scripts that can algorithmicly crack the code without any keys whatsoever.
The Taiwainese or Chinese can use any of this widely and publicly available information to make DVD playback devices capable of decrypting and playing DVDs and, I suspect, under the rules of the WTO, there is absolutely nothing the Copyright and Media Cartels can do about it.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
It's sad that some companies in Asia are going to get away with making their own DVD players for the sole purpose of cheating the DVD patent holders while some European kid who writes DeCSS so that he can play his legally purchased DVDs on Linux gets crucified to the fullest extent of the law.
Edit mine.
Good grief, cut the crap. The reality is that these companies MAY get away with it, whereas I couldn't get a DVD player for Linux for love or money legally for a long long time.
Really, though, this is capitalism at its best, IMHO. It can be done cheaper, and in a way consumers actually want - it WILL be done.
Neocon, Did you post an inflamatory message as an anonymous coward and then replied to yourself? Chomsky, an holocaust-denier? On the contrary. Tell me, when did he deny the holocaust? Can you point me to an article he has written, or a speech he has made, where he even alludes to this? That's a very serious allegation you're making.
The rest of this post I believe is informative, but this snippet is incorrect.
4 colors, yes. The author often wants clear but there's nothing magic about black and neither are required.
DVD subtitles can appear on any part of the screen. Like you said, they are achieved through a bitmapped image. This image can be sized up to the full NTSC or PAL resolution.
-Dave
The DMCA doesn't care if DeCSS is a secret or not. They can be sued by offering a device that circumvents access control measures on the DVD's. In fact, since they'd be making money from the sale, they could actually face prison terms for releasing such a system.
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if they and others are tired of paying royalties,
then why not control future technology that has
patents and you can collect royalties and
sign licensing deals taking control!!!
3D Volume Holographic Optical Storage Nanotechnology is the future of storage but the
patents protect others areas of technology
development covered by the patents.
http://www.colossalstorage.net
CSS can be cracked without the keys--I forget where the code is, but because the format of MPEG is well known, it's pretty simple to do a known-plaintext attack and compute a set of keys in under a second on a low-powered PC.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
To make a player that plays just this new protocol, there is no license fee involved (I presme). The players they'll probably make will be APEX-like, playing DVDs, CDs, MP3s, and will probably pay a DVD licensing fee. At least, auditable units, or units shipped to the west will pay fees. Who knows about grey-market ones.
Though of course it all depends on how the Chinese government would view it. However I suspect that if a company has the right Communist party connections, it can manufacture for export whatever the hell it likes, especially as the current piracy situation there suggests the Chinese government coulndn't give a flying f*** about the RIAA or MPAA. They're more interested in stamping on political dissent and Falung Gung.
At the very least, the situation might resemble the current one with DVD player region coding. The makers would pay lip service to hardware copyright enforcement, but quietly make it known that it can be disabled with a jumper in order to boost sales of their hard drives which would otherwise have little to recommend them over ones made by the big, mainstream manufactures.
All I can say is, I hope they don't have region encoding or encrypted data in this new format. If it's truly open, encryption should be unnecessary. And region encoding is totally annoying.
Build EVD/AVD player that is DVD 'compatable' but is missing a chip for CSS/MPEG. Just build [ea]VD around ogg voribis/tarkin. Since the 'base' player doesn't do CSS/MPEG2 there isn't any reason to license the patents for it. If the 'missing chip' is a ZIF-socket pay license fees just on that chip. If the 'missing chip' is a firmware upgrade then we all know how easily software is to keep sekrit. This will allow the Eastern market to save a bundle while pushing a replacement for DVDs. It's still an up-hill battle for adoption by EU/US/Japan, unless it is significanly better. But how to get the movie studios to support the newer format?
.. shooting for HD-xVD around the 2008 Olympics in Bejing.
Of course the main idea is to create some Eastern IP to compete with the Western IP
Good luck.
Well... nevermind then :)
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Multi-region DVD/VCD players are already available in NYC Chinatown for a while now. They play all DVDs, even those badly pirated ones. And for $50, they will modify your existing DVD player to play all regions. Like they do to U.S DreamCast/PS2 consoles so they can play Japanese games.
Hmm, now we'll have three non-DVD high-density optical media formats:
DVD+RW (and DVD+R)
AVD
EVD
Maybe I should come up with one as it seems to be all the rage.
Actually, the funny part of this are some of the same people who support DVD+RW (a non-DVD format) are now saying that the Asians should not be allowed to come up with their own competing technology as it will confuse the market!
-David
* As is generally the case, my opinions do not reflect those of my employer.
Further correction..
Is it really that sad that some mildly rich companies in Asia are going to get away with making their own DVD players for the sole purpose of avoiding the filthy rich DVD patent holders?
Heck no! This is a great thing to see! The more countries that fight our backwards software patents, the better. You do realize that's what we're talking about, right? Software. Not optical drive mechanics or other such technology. We're talking about MPEG-2, which is locked up with so many software (ie. mathematical) patents it's disgusting.
These same bad patents could also cause problems in the future for open source software--or at least its use in the US.
Kinda ironic when it's the communists fighting for a free market solution, eh? Crazy world we live in..
If the MPAA can't stop people from buying/selling from different regions expect them to drop subtitle and multiple language support outside the US market very soon.
By ensuring only one language per DVD you'll see fewer people from the US buying Japanese and HK DVDs. You'll also see people in France no longer hopping to the UK or ordering from US online stores. Ironic since many French versions of HK and Japanese DVDs are better quality (more features/languages and better print quality) than those in the US or HK.
The MPAA members will be able to return to controlling releases among different countries and can then ensure better adherence to their price structures.
The reason this won't happen in the US is the variety of languages spoken in the US and the fact that the US market is currently the one with the most DVD titles available.
What do you mean 'contains a menu program' ?
The menus on a DVD title are written in a nearly Turing-complete programming language. ("Nearly" meaning memory is bounded.)
All these companies have to do is hack the dvd program so that it ignores the 'die' command
Impossible. Detecting an inlined version of the 'die' command reliably on a Turing-complete system will solve the halting problem, which Turing proved undecidable way back in 1936.
Likewise, they can send back any region code they want until the contents are viewable.
This still doesn't solve the problem of not being able to import the player into countries that have passed DMCA, EUCD, or other laws prohibiting such circumvention.
Will I retire or break 10K?
You're out of the frying pan, and into the fire.
You got away from the Information Nazis, but now you're nabbed by the Punctuation Nazis. In English, one does not use apostrophe-s to indicate plurality.
While we USians may not like the isolation
People from North America are called North Americans
People from South America are called South Americans
People from The United States of America are called Americans
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
when can i get a royalty free burner? when can i get a component that'll play divx? when can i get blue ray capacity on an optical disk? when are white LED's gonna be put in LCD projectors lowering the price to under $100? when can i then replace every tv and crt in my house?
when are corporations going to do ANYTHING good for humanity at their own expense?
when is our government going to be run for by and of the people instead of said corporations?
my guess the answer to all of these is NEVER. because somebody somewhere would "loose" money that they had never MADE yet.
rhy
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
What would happen if their approach was to release empty hardware overseas with not DVD support whatsoever and only support for AVD? And even not support for MPEG/AC3/etc? Then they can put up a Firmware (unofficially ;-) on the net in China and people (uh... resellers) can flash the systems to enable the DVD capability?
I will buy any damn player that will play a DVD and allow me to fast forward through the damn Disney previews that they force you to watch.
They need a "Just play the f***ing movie" button on their remote controls.
As a person of Chinese descent, I observe that many Chinese, if not other Asians living in Asia, will only pay what is neccesary to obtain the material object. Reason why is because they simply don't have enough cash to pay for royalties that entertainment and technology companies want them to pay. The a lawyer in China only makes about $141. The GDP per capita in China is about $3,600. Ever since the Communist takeover in the 20th century, many Chinese have become thirfty, budget-minded consumers.
Believe me, many Chinese are hardcore bargain-hunters (Ive observed this in Hong Kong) and usually do not purchase something without getting the lowest possible price.
As a result, Chinese usually spend their money on neccessities such as food, health care products, etc...they also would like other commodities sold in the Western world, but cannot afford them. One of these much-wanted commodities is entertainment such as DVDs, software etc...Anyway, they usually buy pirated products because the legal ones typically cost 5 times more.
The Chinese and Taiwanese governments really don't care about royalty payments demanded from companies in foreign countries...simply because they want to save money. As a result, Taiwan and China rank among the largest pirated software and home video markets in the world, just below Brazil.
Software and entertainment companies should really take a look at how much the average person makes in the country they release theire products in...
Kinda ironic when it's the communists fighting for a free market solution, eh? Crazy world we live in..
-Touché!!
Peter
(Freedom should never include the 'freedom' to restrict the freedom of others.. -But, heck-anything goes with money. It's the American way..;-) )
If you want to blame them for making life worse for people in many ways, and making some people poorer, sure. But considering large parts of Chinas population had been living at the brink of starvation under colonial rule until the emperor was overthrown, and things hardly got better during the civil war, things were hardly in great shape before they took over either.
Also, trying to present this as something thats unique to China, as opposed to common to poor people everywhere is pretty interesting. Of course poor people will try to avoid spending money on anything but neccessities - everyone generally see avoiding starvation as more critical in their life than the latest Hollywood blockbuster.
The size of a market is not simply a function of the number of people; it's also dependent on the amount of wealth in the market.
America and Europe are huge markets, combined possibly larger than the Asian market. Or do you think a farmer in rural China will pay as much for a DVD player as some geek in the U.S. will?
It wasn't my intention to blame communism for the begginnings of poverty in China, but rather it instigated the start of "product piracy". In the early 1950's, the product piracy market began with knockoffs of popular products (toothpastes, board games, etc...) in sold in the western world. About 30 years later, piracy of music recordings began to proliferate. Now, its software and as well as other digital media.
And no, it was not my intention to present this as a "problem" unique to China. I did mention that Brazil ranked above China in the size of their pirated media markets.
I would like to mention that impoverished countries are not the only ones that may have sizable piracy markets. Italy has the one of the largest pirated media/software markets in the Europe, believe it or not. See this for yourself at the flea markets.
America and Europe are huge markets, combined possibly larger than the Asian market. Or do you think a farmer in rural China will pay as much for a DVD player as some geek in the U.S. will?
No, and that's why the patent license fees of $15 to $20 per DVD player are so much of an issue. In fact, it's the same reason why Linux is winning in many areas.
Look at it this way:
Person A lives in Rich Market USA - pays $300 to $500 for a highend DVD player - $15 to $20 fee on top of cost to make of $50 is ok price.
Person B lives in Middle Market Taiwan - pays $100 to $150 for a nice DVD player - $15 to $20 fee starts to become a very big issue, when manufacture is $50.
Person C lives in Poor Market China - pays $85 (a lot of money there) for a DVD player - $15 to $20 is major issue, if reduced to $50 manufacture than could sell at $70 to $75 and market would expand as more could afford.
Rich Market USA reaches saturation when everyone has a DVD player.
Middle Market Taiwan still has growth if price drops further.
Poor Market China has massive growth left if price drops further.
Basic economics.
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
I will add that the Chinese have always been hardcore bargain hunters perhaps since the beggining of the Tang dynasty. Lower class civilians usually learned to get obtain the best deal first. Yes, China started to become a poor country towards the end of the Qing Dyansty as a result of attempted colonialism and poor descisions on the part of the Qing. After the Nationalist-Communist wars, communist takeover, Cultural Revolution (where extreme amounts of money were taken away from businesspeople and middle-class citizens), many Chinese have learned to manage their cash, and *reenforce* their bargaining skills as they do not have an abundance of cash.
If you don't see my point, you may have to go to cities such as Shanghai or Hong Kong to see this bargain-hunting behaviour in action. Better yet, if you have one, ask a Chinese friend if they've observed their family members (usually the parents or grand-parents) if they push market vendors for a good deal. Then ask them why.
In conclusion, the driving force of the pirated media/software market in China, as well as the will of the Taiwanese and Chinese companies to sidestep royalties is the combination of the bargain-hunting mentality that begun in the early dynasties, and the wars and revolutions that drained many of their cash reserves which re-enforced the bargain hunting mentality and the habit of managing money.
Buttcunt crapflooder! Snort a Jew, you asstard tulipmonger! Suck a duck and choke on anuslicking cocksnot in reverse, you monkeyfuck assclown.