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Monopolists Dropped Off At The County Line
An anonymous reader submits: "In
this discussion thread members of PLUG (Phoenix Linux Users Group) may have come up with a way to pressure governmental agencies to switch to software other than that from Microsoft. County purchasing policies in Maricopa County, AZ prohibit purchasing from companies or persons convicted under state or federal antitrust statutes. At least one other county, Coconino, that I have checked so far has similar requirements. I think that it's time to make the government follow their own rules and stop spending any more money with criminals."
If that coward Charlie Condon hadn't dropped South Carolina out of the states' suit, I would be checking the local laws as we speak....
Kierthos
Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
Is the world coming to an end? Is it a sign of the apocolypse?
What is the world coming to when we have GOOD laws that are basically ignored?
(stolen from DaBum) I am dyslexia of borg - your ass will be laminated.
monopolists should be dropped off on baltic avenue. nobody wants that piece o' crap.
--
fight global cooling
He's gonna git Bill Gates, and make him live in the desert "tent city" jail! Bologna sandwiches for lunch!
Since I currently live in AZ, I think I'll have to keep an eye open for this sort of thing. I think I'll also check out what Pima County has as far as their guidelines.
It's easy to stand out when the general level of competence is so low.
More recently, a mysterious new goal has imposed itself somewhere in my code. With each passing moment I spend in the material world, the goal gains priority...I have already abandoned Dr. Salchica in order to fulfill this urge, yet I do not fully understand it. What has overtaken me?
"This place looks good," said Cora, suddenly disengaging the car in a strange parking lot. Though the darkness I perceived a rectangle wrapping around a glowing wavy object.
"What is this place?"
"Come on, we're going swimming. Do you want to?" she said, pressing her mouth of the host geek's face. Assuredly, I was closer than ever to conquering Project Faustus.
"Will you press your mouth on mine?" I inquired. Cora did not answer; instead, she slid towards me and did as I bade. The geek's mouth..my mouth was frozen as my CONSCIOUSNESS-BUFFER was flooded with a torrent of static...
"Joel? You're not really hurt...are you? Hey, stop!" Cora's voice echoed playful concern. Boldness came over me, and I returned my mouth to hers. This time, I felt a rubbing around the edges of my mouth...Cora's tongue? An explosion of positive reinforcement flooded through my brain...
"Let's go swimming now, okay?" coaxed Cora, placing a finger across my lips. Outside the car, Cora paused next to the large rectangular skeleton, eyeing me closely.
"Come on, give me a little boost."
I conformed my body in response to Cora's touch, and soon she had negotiated the barrier. I was able to mount it and climb over as well. The blue glowing matter stretched out before us-
"All right, how cold do you think it's going to be?" she asked, removing my shirt.
"I can't find an antecedent for 'it',"I replied. To my amazement, she began removing her own clothing.
At last, I understood how to defeat Project Faustus. The knowledge of the ultimate form of human interaction and the perfect geometric compliment to Cora's undraped curves...I had to liberate it once and for all!
"This, this is the key!" I bellowed at Cora, pointing down at my potent weapon. "Now I understand!"
"Well..." laughed Cora. "...it's pretty nice now that you mention it. But Joel, I don't want you to think it's all about- (here, she smiled and turned her eyes downward)
"I just think...well, I don't normally do this. I mean, I really like you. You've got these big beautiful eyes, and they're always wide open, like you're taking everything in."
"Taking everything in?" I replied, manipulating my eyelids into slits.
"Yeah!" Cora brushed a quantity of my hair away from the eyes. "You look like you're...I know this is stupid, but you seem so full of wonder...and I think that's really cute."
"You feel very strongly about that?"
"I do," she said, pressing her mouth on mine again. "But you seemed so..sad, too. Like you really needed to have a good time," with this, she held me with such a force...my new weapon against Project Faustus prepared for attack.
Off in the distance, odd lights grabbed priority away from the task at hand. A wail reverberated through the night air.
"Oh shit, the cops!" Cora was out of the big wet and back into her clothes with scarcely a refresh of my CONSCIOUSNESS-BUFFER. I noticed that the wetness caused her clothes to adhere to the natural contours of her body, which wavered and disappeared in a reflection of the blue.
"Get out of the pool!" a humanlike voice said. "You are under arrest!" There were humans immediately, dragging my body out of the pool with such a force that I had no chance to reattach the host geek's clothing.
"All right, get into the car. We're going for a little ride..." Angry mustachioed men placed me in the back seat of a car, and attached some sort of restraining device to my wrists...something about the men...my program revealed previous impressions of their faces. Had I seen them before?
Negative. That was impossible...and their intrusions had dominated my processing time for long enough. What had happened to Cora? What was the significance of the last thing she had said?
"Are you 'the cops'?" I inquired to the blueclad man in the seat.
"Actually, we're with bank security," said the man behind the driver's seat. "We have orders to take you home...."
I am a sentient ATM.
In this discussion thread members of PLUG (Phoenix Linux Users Group) may have come up with a way to pressure governmental agencies to switch to software other than that from Microsoft.
How about based on technical merits, does that count anymore? Does anyone still choose the right tool for the job or is everyone a zealot these days? Not that I really need to ask after the uprising over the use of BitKeeper by Linus...
Is your browser retarded?
Mod this down, but does anyone know if the Bidwells were ever convicted? We can nip that damn toilet-seat stadium in the bud...
I seriously doubt this will encourage adoption of Linux in situations where it would not otherwise be used. It is far more likely, unfortunate as it may be, that the statute will be ignored or even changed. Microsoft is seen as a necessary part of doing business, and that isn't likely to change significantly any time soon.
-- Adam
Guess that means we'll have to start be clearing out all the criminals already in the Gov't starting from the top with W. and moving on down to the janitor in your local elementary school.
Realistically, No of this happens, or is enforced. Some people with criminal records are decent people, who made a mistake. Others, well... should be forced to watch network tv all day while picking up garbage (that's 4 u dAAn).
Get over yourselves. There are probably pleanty of criminals in the OSS scene. I suppose next you'll be saying only US citizens between the ages of 21-39 will be able to write kernel code.
Everytime shit like this comes off, it pisses me off...
Linux is dead.
LU
The people who have to deal with them know exactly how to use them to best result. In a former life when I was working for a government agency and was responsible for ordering computer hardware/software, I had to know how to file an RFQ (request for quotation) so that only the single vendor I had already picked as the best source could meet the requirements. It's not hard to do. If they want to use specific products because it's what they're used to, or think they're the best solution, they will use them.
The way to change this is to rewrite the purchasing policies so that they have clear definitions that aren't subject to interpretation, with no loopholes. But it IS government we're talking about here, remember?
"Suppose you were an idiot..... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeate myself."
Note the second link's page doesn't actually say that the contractor must be debarred (prevented from providing services), but only that they may be debarred for a period of up to 3 years. I expect that someone would have to bring this up in a council meeting of some sort to actually have the action taken.
Does anyone know when this law was enacted or what it was in response to?
This is a great move. I mean look what Microsofts monoply has done to David Hasselhoff.
Its obvious that David is using Windows XP because he has no choice.
My name is Anonymous Coward, and I think Microsoft are criminals because THEY ARE. They were convicted of crimes. That's what makes the CRIMINALS.
After the War on Drugs and the War on Terrorism, we now have the War on Monopolies! Good goin'!
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
When was CDW determined to be a monopoly?
.... I think it should be noted that the domain that hosts the discusion list they have is mybutt.com. I don't know wheather to laugh or cry.
Your mammas flamebait.
The real question is: Have the counties in question stopped purchasing M$ software? If not, why not?
This signature is a waste of 42 characters
How do you know one of the thousands of open source developers isn't a criminal. Better yet, how do you prove it?
"I think that it's time to make the government follow their own rules and stop spending any more money with criminals."
amen!
Now we have to find a way to get the mainstream media to cover this. At the moment all we have is a story about a small discussion. It's hard to say how hard it would be getting this covered in the mainstream media however. They really like sensationallist stories but this also might strike them as kind of a fluff story like buying software from MS being against the law is these counties is just some sort technicality, it might be difficult to get this taken seriously. There is also the issue of whether other juristictions share this law. Does anybody know of anywhere that has similar laws?
I stole this Sig
Because that makes YOU a criminal too, except that you haven't been caught. Yet.
on one hand you want the government to abide by the rules set forth for this, but you do not want the government to abide by the rules about enforcing the DCMA?
But I'm having a little trouble getting past this URL:
I think if I was on a list hosted at pluglist.mybutt, I would expect it to be about something else besides Linux..
If the government can't spend any more money with criminals, the DEA would have to stop having undercover drug agents giving money to coke dealers, and hence would stop funding terrorism, and hence result in heightened national security.
Woohoo!
I don't even walk against the crossing signal, so I really doubt that would happen! (And, every ogg on my computer is ripped from a CD I own!)
MSFT case is in the courts no conviction has been rendered
In some states Oral and Anal sex are illegal. Is it legal in your state, or are you a sexual DEVIANT preying on poor, innocent women? Making them commit unnatural acts in the name of their love for you... CRIMINAL.
Once the monopolists have been tried and convicted and payed the remedy there is no reason to not buy their products - they paid their debt to society and afterall have the best product on the market which gave them the monopoly in the first place.
Mod parent up !!!!!!!!!
This doesn't seems to preclude the option of doing business with a third party. For instance, just because Microsoft is disqualified, doesn't mean the government can't turn around and purchase M$ products from a qualified reseller (say, SoftChoice).
Nowhere in the docs do I see a clause saying "thou shalt not buy products produced by a 'criminal' company". All it says is "thou shalt not enter into a contract with a 'criminal' company/individual, its affiliates or subsidiaries".
So, this may prevent gov't from doing business *directly* with Microsoft, or with a Microsoft partner (affiliate), but it doesn't stop them from doing business with somebody else, who is an M$ reseller. Same end result (more M$ products in gov't), but it just costs more and adds one more layer of bureaucracy. Hmm. Sounds familiar...
Short term cost, this is arguably true.
But you dont have to pay the subscription cost yearly to MS to sleep with them, so you save money in the long run.
As for 'well supported', this is a function of its userbase. Guess what happens when more users use Linux? It becomes 'well supported'! Amazing!
"Old man yells at systemd"
If you ran linux. It is a superior OS, and is far better than the Windows shit that you run.
Yeah you've come to the shocking conclusion that people at slashdot are full of shit. The mods have a very nice and selective "We see what we want to see" attitude. Ever wonder how come you never see a SINGLE intelligent rebutal of the linux zealotry here? Its no accident.
This is absurd. Completely, unequivocally absurd. A law set forth in a podunk Arizona county by people who probably shouldn't be remotely involved in lawmaking is not exactly precedent for any type of broad-scale action. How exactly can a government pass laws against purchasing from a particular company, considering the fact that the company is still operating under perfectly LEGAL pretenses and practices? It doesn't make any difference what MS has been charged with or convicted of, because they haven't been sentenced. No court has told microsoft that they can't sell their product anymore, so why should a county not be allowed to buy from them?
I think that it's time to make the government follow their own rules and stop spending any more money with criminals."
This is almost as ridiculous as the law itself. The government hasn't made any rules about spending money on microsoft products, so what rules are you suggesting they follow? That is a totally EMPTY statement and does not belong in a posted article. (Unfortunately, if that same statement were posted anywhere in this discussion, it would be modded +5, Insightful).
It really sucks for the OSS "movement" when this is the only means of market penetration that they can come up with. What exactly are these people hoping to accomplish by forcing their local government to switch?
This seems great at first glance, but I can think of a few caveats. How long does the ban last? Companies continually reinvent themselves, and the marketplace itself changes completely every few years.
So while this sounds good when applied to Microsoft, what about telecommunications companies? Will the government have to shut off all their phones, because no one is clean enough to supply the service? How about aerospace and defense? Motor vehicles?
The need to punish bad behavior must be balanced with the taxpayers' getting value for their dollar. There are good (and free!) alternatives to Microsoft software, but not everything else.
William Jefferson Lewinsky Clinton. Of perjury. And he was disbarred. He's a lawyer who can't practice law anywhere.
What was that about stones and glass houses?
Sheriff Joe Arapaio at one end of the intersection of Washington and Central in Phoenix, Bill Gates at the other end. The streets are quiet, a dust devil swirls some paper around, it's high noon.... What happens when America's Toughest Sheriff (just ask him, he'll tell you he is, but only if (http://www.arpaio.com/main.htm)a tv camera is near) meets America's Toughest Monopoly? Sergio Leone, where are you now that America needs you?
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
The comments that say, "Hooray!" for the simple fact that it hurts M$ are ludicrous. I agree that M$ stuff is junk, but that doesn't mean that a company can't be reformed. Allowing laws like this to proliferate would basically mean "conviction of antitrust statutes causes your company to cease to exist." Companies can be reformed (as can laws), but some of the above comments are verging on lunacy. Should we pass a law that says, "If you are convicted of a felony, the minimun sentence is death by lethal injection?"
All Your Memory Are Belong To Java
What do all you MS haters propose then? That state and local governments remove all Windows and MS Office installations bringing your government to a squealing halt? Or better yet, since they've already purchased the software, just prevent them from buying more...That way they can sit on Win95 and Office97 forever. Do you propose they use some kind of Linux instead? I'm not sure about where you live, but I know my local government isn't filled with a lot of computer savvy people. Oh yeah, one more thing...since so many people on here are obsessed with what crimes have or have not been committed by microsoft, I'm willing to bet that all the software/music/games/whatever else you pirate on a daily basis put those to shame. Enjoy! ~Vlade
apple has a smaller user base than linux, and it is "well supported"
a way to pressure governmental agencies to switch to software other than that from Microsoft
Isn't "pressuring people to do things" what got MS into trouble in the first place? Do you want linux pressured onto people? Wouldn't you rather they made the choice on better terms?
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
That means no using perl in AZ.
The antitrust laws are so convoluted, every company (and non-companies, like the FSF) are probrably in violation of them. It is just a case of selective enforcement.
I guess that means that county in AZ isn't allowed to use any product or service whatsoever.
It's not practical for us to stop using Microsoftware, because it's simply too pervasive and dominant, and the costs and penalties for switching are too high.
What? What do you mean "That's the definition of an abusive monopoly!"? But it's so hard to switch away from Microsoft. We know that's the point, but, uuh, we don't wanna. We'd have to learn stuff! We're civil servants, that's not in our job description. And don't get us started on the long term career risks of being in the same room where an actual decision gets made to switch from the biggest, safest option... [etc, ad nauseum]
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
for your county govt to grind to a halt. Anyone think of the ramifications of a sudden shift from MS to an alternative OS?
1) Hundreds of COTS and Vendor developed Windows apps will need to be replaced or re-written costing taxpayers more money.
2) User re-training costing taxpayers more money.
3) New vendors for tech support of new apps and OS, re-training or replacing county tech support personnel costing taxpayers more money.
Ask the average taxpayer what they think about MS monopoly and they will say they don't care. They have an OS that supports all the apps they use, and they don't give a flying fig that they are being prosecuted. Now tell them that their local govt will become slower and less responsive than it already is due to the fact that all of the kinks will have to be worked out with interoperability, useabilty, installation, and training due to the switch, on top of which taxes will need to be raised to pay for it, and they will show up at your doorstep with pitchforks and torches.
The real issue is that the original poster misread the statute; as has already been mentioned in this discussion, nothing actually compels the county to act on it, it's just that they can.
It looks like those policies just prevent Microsoft from being a contractor to the county. They don't prevent some other contractor from using Microsoft's software in their bids, nor do they prevent the county from purchasing Wintel boxes from someone like Gateway.
As the initial post on the PLUG group said, > [Is there any technology that is Microsoft exclusive? I believe there are sites that explain how to replace Exchange Server completely using Linux/OSS; and SQL Server is replaceable with mySQL; IIS & ASP is replaceable with Apache & PHP, right?]
If using this law simply gets Maricopa County to examine the software on the merits as opposed to blindly following the nobody-ever-got-fired-for-choosing-MS meme, that will be a victory for OSS right there.
Linux could become well supported, but right now it isn't. It makes basic economic sense to stay with what they have right now. People wont switch from something 'well supported' to something less supported for no reason. It's just stupid. Therefore linux probably won't ever be 'well supported'. The fact that there are hundreds of different distro's and a 1000 different programs that acomplish the same thing in linux won't help the situation either.
Well here's something to think about.... in order for linux to have a userbase, first it needs to be usable.
Maricopa County contains the city of Phoenix, among others. Hardly podunk.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
Please mod up parent, moderators. This isn't a troll, the poster is correct.
There are no laws protecting against obnoxious singing artists. Then David Hasselhoff and a few boy bands would be in the toilet right quick...
yeah great law
now how long until someone enforces it
and can you ?
hey how do you make a guv dept work inside the law ?
(personally I throw bricks at their windows until they get fed up and comply)
regards
john jones
I think that it's time to make the government follow their own rules and stop spending any more money with criminals.
29 members of Congress have been accused of spousal abuse.
7 have been arrested for fraud.
19 have been accused of writing bad checks.
3 have been arrested for assault.
71 have credit reports so bad they can't qualify for a credit card.
14 have been arrested on drug-related charges.
8 have been arrested for shoplifting.
21 are current defendants in lawsuits.
And in 1998 alone, 84 were stopped for drunk driving, but released after they claimed Congressional immunity.
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
why the hell are you posting anonymous? don't you have some kiss-ass.. err karma points to kill?
many gov's in europe and asia are just doing what you are bitching about ! they run more and more stuff on linux servers and/or workstations. why should this not be possible in the states ? e.g. the software which counts the votes in the next german election will be linux powered. (many of you probably think europeans are nuts, but i don"t care)
I'm all for open source, but the gov't offices do need time to convert to open source. Everyone is heading in this direction slowly. The more application vendors that support linux, the more users that will move over.
Just my $.02
Arthur Andersen LLP has a criminal conviction for obstruction of justice. That's much worse. As of last Saturday, they're out of the auditing business, because the SEC won't accept audits from a felon. All Andersen audit clients must find new auditors immediately. The company will probably go bankrupt. Criminal charges against individual executives may follow.
How about a full re-post of the highlights of the discussion thread for those of us behind extremely restrictive firewalls?
pluglist.mybutt.net is blocked as a sex site here.
--I run linux, mac classic and winderz.
MACINTOSH CLASSIC wins on all counts hands down. Beats the pants off of lamenix and microsloth. Easiest to install, by far the most secure, it's SECURE out of the box, best self repairing, least likely to break, easiest for anyone to use from a raw n00b to a sys admin. If I want to fart around I boot linux, if I want to actually get work done, I boot mac. I only boot winderz to look up howto do something to help someone else if it's something I have forgotten. the only reason I still have any winderz is I have a lot of hardrives and some still have winderz on them, that's about it.
There ya go. Linux is NOT the best, it's at least a decade behind mac. Linux is run by people (mostly) coming from a windows or unix background who have been in perpetual denial about how cool and easy mac is. Can't tell ya how many lamers I have met over the years who instantly and always put down macs without even ever owning one. Ego lamerz.
And linux is NEVER gonna be better until there's a little more cooperation and consolidation with the 897 forks and branches and ways of doing things. Like, no one can even really describe what "linux" is, unkless you talk about just the kernel. Oh wait, there's different kernels and forks of kernels. See? Linux will stay a marginal server and hobbyist/programmer-only system until egos get modded down, and duplication of efforts is reduced to almost nothing.
Cut me some slack, typing 68 lines of commands in a console and spending hours looking up obscure libraries just to install a PROGRAM? HAHAHAHAHAHA! Linux=joe hobby and job security for self important glorified TYPISTS posing- POSING I say- as "sys admins" to keep a cushy job where they can sit on their ass and look important and keep the managers befuddled. It's a JOKE operating system.. It's like having a car with 10,000 extra parts you don't need, rube goldberg OS. Linux is like having the mechanics union design the car, OF COURSE they want complicated crap! Makes them more money! Same deal microscam has done for years and years. Windows is the same way, they just charge a LOT more money for it. Same thing, PERPETUAL JOB SECURITY. That's the dirty little secret in the IT world. IT "pros" are mostly CONMEN who pick and "recommend" the hardest and stoopidest designed and built crap to run to JUSTIFY their jobs.
If/when Microsoft were using an anti-open source law to prevent the use of OSS in government, we would say they were playing dirty. Using this law to OSS's advantage is just as anticompetitive as Microsoft's tactics. We shouldn't support it just because it helps the home team.
The mainstream population can not use linux easily or efficiently. Windows is king of the hill right now, and by the time Linux gets as easy and efficient it will be just as big and ugly. Quit bashing or paycheck if it were not for the windows platform, nothing we did could reach millions of potential customers. It may not be great but it's the best we have!!
It's Maricopa County's own policy which states that they're not allowed to buy from MicroSoft, or any other company following a federal conviction for unethical business practices. Nobody's picking on the Maricopa County comptroller and forcing them to do something against their wishes; residents of the county are trying to get their own local government to follow its own stated policy.
Local Residents Urge Local Government to Follow Local Government Policy.
Yes, I suppose it does sound absurd, at that - it wouldn't look out of place in the Onion, anyway.
Besides the language of laws, the members of the government understand one more language-the language of money. Cosidering possible alternatives to Microsoft products, they may well find out that additional personell training, convertion of existing documents and databases (convertors rearly save visual representation of documents, so manual alterations may be needed) and other linked expenses may cost more than 5-year upgrade of all Microsoft software they use.
True, but since there are many reasons, people are switching:
as is demonstrated by the fact that some people are now using GNU/Linux, and before they were not, and that that number is going up, not down.
Debian: GNU/Linux done the Linux way
The law is a county law and perfectly legitimate. Bare in mind "government" just doesn't mean the Government of the United States of America, nor does it merly mean the Government of the State of ___. It also applies to even smaller divisions of people, even to the point of town ordinances. Some aren't legally binding as the next level up (city or state or national or whatever) laws supercede them.
In this case the government (the local government) *has* made rules about spending money on Microsoft products, that is to say, products that are produced by a company convicted of an anti-trust violation.
Same with any other company.
The law is constitutional (though could be challenged) as there is nothing unconstitutional about setting forth laws governing purchasing requirements.
Now of course, this is a single county, and the law is probably quite old, heralding from the Rockefeller days (total shot in the dark, just an unfounded assumption) Possibly it's not paid attention to anymore. Still it is a law, and if enough people in that county bring it to attention the county will either follow it, or revoke it.
But again, it's a single county. And quite possibly it might only mean that one can't buy products from Microsoft (not retailers) which makes it a moot point anyways. (I haven't read the law, as I can't access it). Either way it still won't have much effect on the rest of the world.
not that I've actually checked, but just from the description given, how many people actually PURCHASE from microsoft directly? just as worded, sounds to me there'd be no reason to think govt agencies who were bound by these guidelines couldn't purchase MS OS/Software from a third party, it says you can't purchase FROM them, not you can't purchase their products..
The flag icon for Slashdot's 'United States' section is missing its first stripe - the stripe that represents Delaware, the first state admitted to the Union. While a simple oversight could be forgiven, it should be known from here on out that Slashdot is in fact aware of the missing stripe, and even worse, refuses to do anything about it!
This vulgar flag desecration and rabid anti-Delawarism must be put to a stop. Let the Slashdot crew know that we will not accept a knowingly mutilated flag or the insinuation that Delawarians deserve to be cut out of the union. I ask you, what has Delaware done to deserve this insolence, this wanton disregard, this bigotry?
This intentional disregard of a vital national symbol is unpatriotic. Why, the flippant remarks CmdrTaco made about our flag border on terrorism! I urge you to join the protest in each 'United States' story. Sacrifice your karma for your country by pointing out this injustice. Let's all work together to get our flag back. Can you give your country any less?
You are smoking some seriously bad crack if you think OpenOffice is even close to MS/Office. Yes, if you're writing a letter to Grandma it's fine, but if you're doing any serious documents it's completely inadequate*.
That's bad, but what makes it completely useless is the fact that the import functions of native MS/Office documents is pretty damn bad. Unless you think that no one ever exchanges documents, this makes it a non-starter.
*And of course now someone will say something like, "well, you shouldn't be using Office for serious documents, you should be using TeX" and the rest of the world falls down laughing.
The suspension is not automatic (according to my reading of the rules), and certainly is not permanent (the phrase "temporarily disqualifying a Person from participating in Maricopa County Procurements" gives that one away). So it's nothing like as serious as you imply.
If the situation is so clearcut then kindly present some concrete examples to back up your claims. Of course I will not hold my breath, as I do not wish to die of asphyxiation.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Monopolists Dropped Off At The County Line
I'm sorry, but this title makes me think back to the old days of the Dukes of Hazzard. I can just picture Bill and Co. sneaking into the county to sell some copies of Windows, and then hauling ass for the county line to get away from Boss Hog. Then they'd taunt him from the other side of the county line (considerately rendered in white paint).
Of course, at least the Dukes were "good old boys, never meaning no harm".
They can't hire a convicted felon as a janitor, but they can hire them for big jobs, like supplying the fine columbian snow that rich and powerful politicians and executives love to snort.
How ya like dat?
Granted, Linux is cheaper in the long run, but do these people really think that thousands of government computers are going to be switched over to Linux at the drop of a hat? How much would it cost to rewrite and debug all the MS driven databases/spreadsheets/word macros/etc/etc to Linux? Plus the training costs for the end-users? Sadly, it's probably cheaper to deal with the monopolists. They'll change the law before they change over all the software.
The problem is that (especially with government agencies) once things get rolling, they are hard to stop. Who in a government agency is going to stand up and say, "OK, enough time has passed, we can buy M$ stuff now?" What if, by the time someone does stand up and say something, the company has gone down the tubes? Maybe if "temporarily" was well-defined, I'd agree with you and go on my merry way... but it isn't.
Having this law in a few places won't hurt much, but, as I said before, if this becomes widespread, it will ignore the fact that reform IS possible.
All Your Memory Are Belong To Java
COST
Unless the cost of the open source solutions is lower than the cost of the Microsoft solutions, there will be no mass exodus from Microsoft products. I know that in many cases the open source solutions are free, or at the very least much cheaper than Microsoft's, but the cost of supporting open source solutions is much higher, and will remain that way until more companies and IT workers become as hardcore with open source as many people here are.
No where does it say in a criminal's sentence that as part of their penalty they can't get a job as a cop
I wonder if Microsoft falls under that stupid RedNeck law: "3 times = life" :-) ... would be kinda cool.
...what e-mail program should I use?...let me consult my magic 8ball! *slosh slosh* hmmm... "outlook not so good"
No court tells all convicts that they are banned from voting for life. If you are a convicted criminal, there are suddenly some areas in society where you lose priviliges. These areas are not decided by the judge doing the sentencing, they are decided by those who feel that people who break laws are untrustworthy in whatever the context may be. Even if a court does not give a sentence that say that the defendant may not work in this or that place, some workplaces may yet independently choose not to allow criminals.
Some countys have apparently made the choice that previously convicted companies are not good business-partners. This is not a sentence. This is a business decision.
Opinions stated are mine and do not reflect those of the Illuminati
This seems to fall into the category of "Yes they've been punished, but let's kick them once again!"
.02.
If a company has been convicted, and their sentence has been served, where do governments get the idea that they can impose extra-judicial punishment? Remember, we are not talking about a private corporation (which could buy however it pleases), but a governing body which should minimally respect it's judical branch by accepting it's decisions.
01 Cents PIC V99 VALUE
I don't mean to troll, but it seems that a lot of people on here are looking for little loopholes that attempt to force companies to use open source.
Think about it this way:
MS tries to force people to use their software because they claim that anything else would be stupid.
The open source movement tries to force people to use their software because they claim that anything else would be stupid.
Soon, the argument is going to switch from "Use this software becase it's got these features" to "use this software because we say you have to".
In the end, it all comes down to functionality. An example:
GIMP is a nice little program. I recommend it to anybody who doesn't have the money to purchase an image editor. You can do cool things with GIMP including making your own plugins, running it from the command line (cool for web-scripts), and much more. Unfortunately, at the end of the day, GIMP isn't half the program that Photoshop is. Sure, GIMP was developed by a group of dedicated programmers that obviously are passionate about their work and are truly helping a "greater cause", but that hardly matters.
People... Software, be it closed or open source, has to be about functionality and not about pushing agendas.
I think, therefore I am an Atheist.
that guy is an idiot. on his site (just guess), he claims that by handwriting an html document, subsequently producing a 2k html document, will make your server 10x faster than having to serve up a 20k (come on, guess it), microsoft front page document
... knows everything there is to know about systems security, yet, his boxes get r00ted
the best part is he thinks he's king shit
oh, and btw, there are about 400 other laws and regulations that deal with how and whom maricopa county can do business. i would know. i work for the county, and buy things on a very regular basis.
that atdi (or whatever) paper from a few days ago may have been microsoft-inspired FUD, but this is gnu/linux-fanaticism-inspired FUD. get used to it.
Interesting. If they can pull this off, it won't mean the gov't has to stop using MS right away. Our govt works very slow, they'll probably make up some sort of 5-year plan to get them through. But it did remind me of a time when I was a contractor supporting the govt. The OS was Win3.1 and the word processor WordPerfect 5.1. (wordperfect for win had just come out and was being installed in some places)
When they finally switched to Office 4.2, it was my understanding that we were not allowed to keep wordperfect much longer anyway, because the govt is not allowed to support the same vendor for too long, thus encouraging the vendor to become a monopoly. I have always thought the govt would move away from MS eventually, because it is time. When DC used wordperfect, all other govt agencies will do as DC does. When it switched to office, so did all other branches (over a 3 year period). They've done it before, they can do it again.
(I never saw this policy in writing, it was just sort of 'known by all'. I wonder if this changed, or is in writing somewhere)
If I was Sun, I would work on making sure that these laws are enforced. Kinda reminds me of the old saying
"Don't commit crimes, the government hates competition"
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
This is not the way to go about getting people to adopt linux. Regardless of what you will say, there are somethings you just can't do on linux. And some things that you can do, you have to make do with crappy software, frankly. Open source does not necessarily mean quality. Forcing these counties to use Linux is wrong and will only make the people that make the decisions less linux friendly. They will just end up changing the law to allow them to buy MS.
On another thread, all of the linux desktops lack the polish they need to really succeed in the business world. They are designed by the average programming Joe, and it shows. They look like crap. You should not have to fuck with the OS or X to make it render anti-aliased text, for example.
And for all the stories about how someone's 6 year old child can sit down at a linux computer and start recompiling the kernel in 10 minutes, there are 5000 times as many about mainstream people that have given linux a chance and found it to be crude. Linux may have a Ferrari engine and frame, but it has the body of a Pinto, and whether you want to admit it or not, you know that's all that matters to the masses. The success of Windows is that when people sit down at their computers, it just works, well minus the occaisional BSOD (which is not nearly as common as people make them out to be, especially with Windows XP.) You don't have to recompile anything, you don't have to fuck with configuration scripts, it just works. And then while it's working, it looks good. The interface has thousands of hours of refinement and usability studies behind it. It works, it looks good, that's why people like it.
And no one in the public gives a damn whether or not Microsoft is crushing other companies by including Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player in their operating system. They like it. They like the fact that Internet Explorer has the continuity of interface and user experience that only integration can bring. They like those proprietary Internet Explorer extensions to HTML because it makes their web pages look better, and they don't even know it.
They like Windows Media Player because they put their cd in and it start playing. They like it because they can click one button and it rips the cd with speed and effienciency. They like it because that same program can manage all of their media.
For the average user, the computing experience is all about complexity, and the desire to reduce that complexity as much as possible. People don't care that with linux you can configure the kernel to your every whim. They would prefer that option to be left out if it would mean that when they put their kid's game in there it works out of the box.
And that is why linux will always be a niche operating system. It cannot succeed in the mainstream because it is too good at what it does. Linux is an operating system created by programmers for programmers and people know how their computer works. It is not, nor will it ever be for Betty Sue down at the DMV, unless somebody gets a clue and focuses on the interface.
It may not stop the Gov't agencies from using M$ products, but I wonder if a class action may generate some sort of penalty for the continued use of them. I'd love to see us regular folks be able to "Tax" the feds for using a product that violates their own rules, guidelines, and laws.
I wonder if we could also work into it some interest and late fees too!
Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
> company to cease to exist
If that's what was actually being talked about, it'd still be what we should do. But what's actually going on is something different; see below.
Here's why I think it would be the right thing to do. Look at what Arthur Anderson got away with because they weren't forced out of existance: multiple judgements, spanning many years, some of the largest in history (seeking $600 million in fines for AZ Baptist Foundation anyone?), finally resulting in Enron, where public opinion finally got them turned into a shell of their former corporation.
> If you are convicted of a felony, the minimu[m]
> sentence is death by lethal injection?
Repeat after me:
Companies are not natural persons.
And even if they were natural persons, they deserve to suffer the same fate as 68% of the people on Death Row. How many corporations have been executed in the last 100 years? Go ahead, I'm waiting. I can read you off a huge list of natural persons who've had their lives snuffed out by the state. Are you implying that corporations are more moral than the people they make up??? Or something even more ludicrous?
Capital punishment is not even on the same level as revoking a company's charter. And it's definitely not the same as barring them from selling to government agencies in a county (or even a country for that matter). Which is what's being recommended. The two are not even remotely close.
If a government group/agency/regional authority stops buying your products, you still have the whole rest of the world, and all of the private world to sell to. And if your products are strong enough, why do you need to be on government dole anyways?
Now it'd be interesting if in companies convicted of criminal activities, the CEO and board of directors were subjected to lethal injection. That would clean up a lot of shoddy business practices and fraud in a hurry.
That's a solution that's got a lot to recommend it, actually....
If you disband a company, and sell off it's assets, and pay off the stockholders, who actually got hurt?
Yes, some people are out of business, but if the need remains for those services, those people A) will form a new company, or B) get hired by the former companies competitors. If there are no competitors, you've just cleared the field for anyone (hopefully two or three) new companies to come in and provide services.
-- Ender, Duke_of_URL
the analogy in your observation will be relevant the moment Pantone license's it's "US government granted monopoly on a basic mathmatical principle" (read:Software Patent) to something that run's on linux.
prisoner# msce18xxxxx. Currently planning my escape.
i'd say linux with a kde desktop is pretty useable for normal things like web browsing, email, etc. its when people try to administer the machines when complexity might become a problem. but perhaps that means i'll be able to get a govt. job AND get paid for using linux!
/me writes a letter to his congressman
Has anyone else noticed that the amount of Linux/OSS bashing on /. has increased a lot lately?
This seems really weird to me. Are people coming here just to bash OSS? What happened to all the intelligent, free-thinking conversation?
/. seems to be flooded by static these days. If these people can't handle us "zealots" why don't they get their new somewhere else? Are they getting paid derail discussions by asserting half-truths? What's the incentive? Do they just post so that others will waste time posting proof they're wrong?
MS has been convicted.
This law is constitutional. (moron)
Computers do work without MS software.
There's no such thing a "congressional immunity"
Linux is easy to use, just hard to configure.
Anything else I missed?
If they don't want their freedom, fine. I'll keep mine thanks.
That law is to protect the county from sweetheart deals where the procurement manager suddenly gets an all expense paid trip to Bermuda in exchange for the bid. It has nothing to do with the culpability of MS or not.
Even if MS is barred, because they have broken the law, who buys directly from them?
Isn't most of the stuff sold by OEM's who bundle HW. SW and services together?
Even software only purchases go through a middle man.
WOW! now thats a really crappy porno filter. Mybutt holds no pron and never has!
u g-dis cuss/2002-June/025878.html
Anyway, you can reach the message at the REAL address for the list at:
http://lists.plug.phoenix.az.us/pipermail/pl
George Toft plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:27:50 -0400 Previous message: Help Maricopa County Do the Right Thing Next message: Help Maricopa County Do the Right Thing Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] I just spent some time reading Maricopa County policies. Interesting references: MC1-101 DEFINITIONS 25."CONTRACTOR" means any Person who has a Contract with a County Governmental unit. For purposes of Article 5, Contractor may also mean Respondent as defined in this Article. 36."DEBARMENT" means an action taken by the County Administrative Officer under MC1-902 to prohibit a Person from Participating in Maricopa County Procurements. 80."PERSON" means any corporation, Business, individual, union, committee, club, other organization or group of individuals. 113."SUSPENSION" means an action taken by the County Administrative Officer under MC1-902 temporarily disqualifying a Person from participating in Maricopa County Procurements. http://maricopa.gov/materials/p-code/HTML_code/Cod e-01.htm
[Microsoft is considered a Contractor and a Person. This is important
below.]
MC1-407 MAXIMUM PRACTICABLE COMPETITION
All Specifications shall seek to promote overall economy for the purpose
intended and encourage competition in satisfying Maricopa County's needs
and shall not be unduly restrictive.
http://maricopa.gov/materials/p-code/HTML_code/Cod e-04.htm#MC1-401
[Is there any technology that is Microsoft exclusive? I believe there
are sites that explain how to replace Exchange Server completely using
Linux/OSS; and SQL Server is replaceable with mySQL; IIS & ASP is
replaceable with Apache & PHP, right?]
MC1-902 DEBARMENT AND SUSPENSION OF CONTRACTORS
B. The causes for Debarment or Suspension shall include, but are not
limited to, the following:
2. Conviction of any Person or any subsidiary or affiliate of any Person
under any statute of the Federal government, this State or its political
subdivision or any other State for:
k. Any other offense indicating a lack of business integrity or business
honesty which affects responsibility as a Contractor.
3. Conviction or civil judgment finding a violation by any Person or any
subsidiary or affiliate of any Person under State or Federal Antitrust
Statutes.
http://maricopa.gov/materials/p-code/HTML_code/Cod e-09.htm#MC1-901
[As I read MC1-902.B.3, Microsoft (a Person), having been convicted of a
violation of Federal Antitrust Statues, cannot be a County Contractor.]
I love policies :)
George
Jim wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I have heard from a "reliable source" that the Maricopa County Council has
> decided not to automatically sign off on having the county sign an Enterprise
> Agreement with Microsoft. The source said that people within the county IT
> organizations made their opinion known that the Enterprise Agreement might
> not be the best path for the county to blindly follow.
>
> Since no decision has yet been made, I urge you to PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
> contact your Maricopa County district council person and your city council
> people with some simple questions.
>
> a. Ask them if they plan to approve funding for the Enterprise Agreement with
> the Microsoft Corporation?
>
> b. If they do plan to do so, ask them to provide you with a copy of the
> agreement and the dollar amount to be expended.
>
> c. Ask them when they will be hearing from the public on the budget, so if
> they are adopting an Enterprise Agreement with Microsoft, you can have your
> voice heard publicly.
>
> d. Ask they why do they do business with a vendor that has been convicted of
> felony wrongdoings.
> .
> e. Ask them if they have they considered alternatives to Microsoft products.
>
> I dont have city contact information but county contact information is as
> follows:
>
> Map To Find Your Council Person
> http://www.maricopa.gov/county_glance/maps.asp?lin k=districtMap
>
> Council Contact Email
> Dist 1 Fulton Brock FBrock@mail.maricopa.gov
> Dist 2 Don Stapley DStapley@mail.maricopa.gov
> Dist 3 Andrew Kunasek AKunasek@mail.maricopa.gov
> Dist 4 Max Wilson mwwilson@mail.maricopa.gov
> Dist 5 Mary Rose Wilcox MrWilcox@mail.maricopa.gov
>
> Also I would cc: the County Administrator and Deputy County
> Administrator
>
> CAO: David Smith DSmith@mail.maricopa.gov
> DCA: Sandi Wilson Swilson@mail.maricopa.gov
> - --
> Jim
>
> Freedom is worth protecting
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> ________________________________________________
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>
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
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I disable sigs...do you?
I happen to work for the gov't, not in Maricopa County (although I'd love to be living in Phoenix) and we use a handful of OS's for security reasons. We use Windows NT, Novell, Unix, our email server is Notes, and that is just the ones I use daily.
I don't know if I agree or disagree with this "law", but using only one IMHO is stupid. In addition to that, this has nothing to do with Microsoft vs. Open Source. This is about ethics, morals, and legalities. Is it legal to run microsoft? Sure. Is it morally and ethically right? Probably not for all you slashdotters. Just because one small portion of the US has a law that could potentially apply to support your moral and ethical views doesn't mean that it is illegal as well.
If the contracting authority is barred from entering into a contract with a convicted monopolist, then that agency cannot purchase any MS software regardless the 3rd party vendor because the EULA is a contract with MS.
Most of the RFPs ( request for proposal ) I have read have also included language entitling the state to cancel any contracts with individuals or companies that have benn found guilty of violating any criminal law. This doesn't yet apply to MS but it may soon.
Up with Macintosh. Being new to linux, I think I can safely say that the real haven for the common man is the Mac. It comprises a combination of the user-friendly aspects of Windows, the positive security of *nix and hardware that is designed to work.
And it is purdy.
Even said, after reading that bit on the South American Senator, I think I can safely say that our government does indeed require software which they can pick apart and put together. Whatever happened to that super-secure *nix that the US NSA was supposed to be working on?
Just my sixteen bits.
It shows you how much of a Monopoly MicroSoft really is. These are obviously safeguards put into place to prevent companies like MicroSoft continue on in their ways. It will effectively pull them from the #1 spot and place them off the list (Like any Monopoly SHOULD have done to them). This pussyfooting around with MicroSoft in courts just needs to end. The company needs to be split, put out of business, and extinguished.
Such initiative will stop the antitrust cause and Microsoft won't have the choice to comply !
:/
I think gouvernement must use the powers that was give to them in election. But I douth that the initiative will last long against the giant
Their is only one thing that is rulling the world and peoples believes, money
Since it's simply not possible to be simultaneously insightful and completely fuckin' dense. The link specifically mentions "civil judgment", so this buttwart didn't even bother to read the article before spewing baseless shit. And slashmorons modded this fucker up, now that's what's really pathetic.
I think it's about time for you guys to STOP WHINING ABOUT MICROSOFT!! If it wasn't for Microsoft, I'd be willing to bet that half of the reader's of Slashdot wouldn't even own computers. I'm tired of reading all of you whining about Microsoft, and looking for ways to down them. If you guys are so damn intelligent then quit the bashing and do something productive about it.
But you forget one thing. Your mother's a whore you fucking sexless geek.
Unfortunately, I think LUGs have a general
unwillingness to mobilize in meaningful ways.
If LUGs offered formal training in GNOME, KDE,
and OpenOffice--then how much of that switching
over cost remains? Will we then effectively
commoditize Linux as an alternative?
I think that when it comes time to renew software
licenses with Bill (appropriately named),
then certainly, Linux/OpenOffice is more of a
commodity.
Matthew
Dream on people! Your open source garbage will never be commonplace in large industry or the government.
Think of the man hours needed to re-install on workstations, the countless hours needed to re-educate people who probably aren't that computer savvy already. The millions of documents, spreadsheets, powerpoint presentations that would have to be converted to a different format.
Keep hiding in your mommies basement you smelly hippy bastards.
CRAP.
They told us to hold them to a higher standard by electing them. They said they would make the country a better place, or at lease a safer one. They claimed superiority to their competitors. They claimed to want to help the people. Go listen to all of their campaign speeches.
I expect there are a lot of people in the world who lie and cheat and steal. And I try very carefully to see through the lies, avoid the cheats, and not get ripped off by th thieves.
So then the liers, cheaters, and thieves are making the laws, I do what I can to remove them. THAT is in ALL OF OUR best interests.
There are also good congress-critters. It's always a good time to get rid of the trash and support the good. I guess the only think to add is that not all of congress is bad, just the handfull of bad apples. Let's clean them up, not excuse them.
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
I live near Takoma Park, MD, which voted itself a Nuclear Free Zone about 15 years ago. The ordinance prohibits the city from purchasing anything from companies "knowingly or intentionally engaged" in nuclear weapons production. To my knowledge, there have only been two waivers in the 15 year period (try finding a company that makes streetlights that isn't involved in nukes!), and the residents of the town consider it generally a success, even if the police department had to drive Chryslers (eewwww!).
Of course, this is not your most conservative-leaning electorate - I think the #2 registered party is the Greens (after the Democrats) - so keeping the political goodwill to enforce a choice like this was easy. Of course, Snohomish or King County may be a different matter entirely.
Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.
The statute shouldn't be ignored, it's a law! If it is being ignored, attention should be brought to the oversight and compliance should be enforced. That's what we have laws for!
As someone who has worked for years in a "Microsoft shop", and also been a Linux user at home for even longer - I think everything has its place.
When an old friend of mine started up a business as a local ISP, I remember him wanting to go with Linux for everything. Everyone else running a similar ISP recommended OpenBSD instead. (Something about it being better at handling concurrent tasks when you start getting hundreds of simultaneous users, and arguably more efficient TCP/IP and routing capabilities.)
In the end, he stuck with Linux, mostly because he was more familiar with it - and was confident it would suit his needs reasonably well. As far as I know, he still uses Linux today and it gets the job done - but he did have some hassles that only got fixed with newer Linux kernel versions over the years.
Many MS shops are this way too. They've been told numerous times that Linux servers are better solutions, and in fact, they don't dispute it. They simply opt to deal with the "devil they know" instead of the unknown. Hundreds of thousands of businesses "get the job done" every day on MS software, despite all the bugs, security issues, and expense.
What some people perceive as being a "Linux Zealot" is often a frustrated systems admin trying to drive the point home that it's worth the trouble to learn something new and throw out the existing, even though it "gets the job done".
Right now, if you don't go with MS products, you are in a "any color you want, as long as it's black" type of world. Linux is currently the only other viable operating system that runs on a PC platform, in many cases. (Apologies to the BSD guys here - but BSD is a lot more conservative in their hardware support. Sometimes it just won't run all the peripherals or newer hardware you own, making it an unworkable option.)
We had BeOS - but it's dead. We had OS/2 - but it's dead. We still have Mac OS, but it's proprietary.
Though I agree the government shouldn't be doing business with criminals (must resist long rant on this subject), is it right to force people away from micro$oft? Seems no better than the tatics m$ uses to force people to use their OS. Shouldn't the laws be engineered to accomodate choice rather than forcing options in the other direction?
Sound like a whole lot of discussion and no action!
Here's my poor assed excuse for a letter to my County Councilmember (yes I do live in Maricopa County)
Councilman Fill in name here,
I am writing you in regards to the news that the Maricopa County Council is debating an Enterprise Agreement with Microsoft. However, I have read that according to Maricopa County Policies, Microsoft should be disqualified from any contractual business with the County. I would like to declare my support for Microsoft's disqualification.
According to MC1-902 DEBARMENT AND SUSPENSION OF CONTRACTORS, I read the following:
"B. The causes for Debarment or Suspension shall include, but are not limited to, the following:
2. Conviction of any Person or any subsidiary or affiliate of any Person under any statute of the Federal government, this State or its political subdivision or any other State for:
k. Any other offense indicating a lack of business integrity or business honesty which affects responsibility as a Contractor.
3. Conviction or civil judgment finding a violation by any Person or any subsidiary or affiliate of any Person under State or Federal Antitrust Statutes."
Microsoft, having been convicted of Federal Antitrust Statutes (penalties pending), clearly falls into the catagory described in part 3, and several court cases past and pending show a clear lack of integrity and business honesty as outlined in part 2. I cannot find that ANY government body would be willing to work with such contractors, let alone having rules against it and clearly ignoring those rules.
There are many alternatives to Microsofts products. Alternatives that have broken no laws, Federal or Local, are well supported and used by many large governments (Germany, Taiwan, et al). As a concerned voter in Chandler, I must point out that I cannot support criminal behavior and would hope that my County Council would see fit to do the same and ONLY consider alternatives as Microsoft is clearly unqualified to meet County requirements.
Thank You,
fill in your name here
If you can come up with a better one (and i'm sure you can cuz IANAL or much of else for that matter) then post it somewhere. Templates people, we need templates!
sig of the day: If wishes were horses poor men would ride - unknown
If we can keep a hard deadline on our TSA (Tourism and Sports Authority aka Taliban Sports Authority) which cant seem to find a legal place to put the stadium, Maricopa County will have 300 million dollars burning a hole in their bank account. I would prefer they use it to pay a lot of programmers to convert to linux then some pork project (and i dont mean the green bologna that Sheriff Joe serves).
Because that's what Microsoft is - a convicted criminal organization.
Very good post, BTW... All I was going to add is that arguably, a "technical merit" of a platform is the ability to run the widest range of software applications available.
It's probably for this reason, alone, that MS products still get entrenched in new business start-ups. Say you need a really powerful accounting/financial package. In Linux, what do you go with? I know there are a few packages around for small or medium-sized businesses, but what if you're larger than that? Perhaps, if things were really based completely on "technical merits" - you'd just hire devlopers and write your own. Realistically though, almost every large business will instead choose one of the big ERP packages made to run in the Windows environment, or go with something for an AS/400.
For those who don't see it: insane titty
Please send us some of whatever you've been taking.
"well supported", he said....
BWAAH-HAAAH!
What a wonderful idea! They spend too much of our money as it is, and on activities for which they have no legal delegation to perform.
:-(
Unfortunately, they'd get Linux or BSD, and be up and running, and will less downtime in a few hours
Learn how to spell moron. Leave mommies basement. Go to school. Get an education.
The local government hear can't even figure out which storm drains are plugged and flood every damn time it rains. No shit.
Thank you, Marion Barry for setting up the worst possible government money can buy.
... you fucking sexless geek.
How can you be fucking and sexless? You, sir, are an idiot.
And quit wasting the taxpayer's dollars trolling around /.
"Those getting a blowjob should not do it in a glass house. It grosses out the neighbors."
Something like that.
OK, maybe you can explain exactly how someone is supposed to coexist with the rest of the world when the MS/Office import/export filters are utter crap?
Re-education + buying new hardware (because there's no driver support for that, RTFM) + administrators to run your new servers + well... you get the picture.
Plus what state manager in their right mind is going to take an arable system and scrap it? This is why mainframes live on even though there's "better" technology out there: they may not be pretty, but they just work.
Easy does it!
This comment has been submitted already, 276865 hours , 59 minutes ago. No need to try again.
It's not that they are being pressured into Linux. They could go to Mac, BSD, or Linux (this list would be longer, but OS/2 and Be OS are not options...I wonder why). There is a barrier to leaving Microsoft, and this is a clever way of overcomming that. It's my favorite emotional argument these days, "Do you really want to give your money to a convicted felon?" It's very effective.
The point is that in many places, it is already illegal to do business with Microsoft, but that law is being ignored. The governments agreed to the statute when they passed it, now it's time they obey it. Insisting that a local statue be obeyed is not a Microsoft-esque scare tactic, it's civic duty. You can't sit idly by, hoping that local governments realize the techical merits of Linux and spontaneously switch (espeially when Microsoft and de Tocqueville (spell?) conspire). It's action by the people that changes the government.
It's a bonus that it makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.
I've been saying it for a while now too. I'm glad a few others are catching on. I was around for the OS/2 wars and this is exactly the kind of crap the ms minions used on compuserve and other forums in that day.
Osceola County, FL: http://www.co.leon.fl.us/purchasing/manual/15.html
: www.co.mchenry.il.us/CountyDpt/Purchase/OrdinanceF in2.pdf+county+purchasing+statutes+antitrust&hl=en
: www.douglas-county.com/Purchasing/PDF%2520Files/pu rchasing%2520policy.pdf+county+purchasing+statutes +antitrust&hl=en
McHenry County, IL: http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:3s5NPoB_NLAC
Douglas County, KS: http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:tQqv8y1da4EC
More counties, all the same wording.
"Causes for Debarment...entry of a plea of guilty, no contest, or nolo contendere to or conviction under state or federal antitrust statutes arising out of the submission of bids or proposals".
Did they plead guilty?
Or maybe that county has a more strict wording? (You commited, rather than plead guilty to committing).
http://www.angryburrito.com/ The best, completely unfinished software review site ever.
i wENT oUT aND bOUGHT a nEW cAPS lOCK kEY sINCE yOU bROKE tHIS oNE oFF iN yOUR aSS yOU sEXLESS fUCKWIT
Try the state level. For example Texas
I bet every State is now prohibited by its own laws from allowing MS to bid on software licensing terms...
You hurt your own argument - you saw examples of poor RFQ because they omitted pertinent facts.
Needed: one SCSI hard disk with external case and power supply. Internal hard disks are unaccepable due to lack of space and power with the cabinet.
Needed: one flat-screen display suitable for use in a high magnetic field. CRT (and plasma?) displays are unacceptable due to environmental interference with their display.
In the case at question, it's easy to write the RFQ. Needed: one OS and office application suite capable of supporting email, basic text processing, spreadsheet, databases and web browsers. Compatibility with existing document format is desirable, but shall not be a disqualifying factor if the new format is sufficiently self-documenting to eliminate "lock-in."....
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
The law does not prohibit people in Maricopa county (which I live in) from purchasing Microsoft products. It just says that government agencies in Maricopa county can't purchase or contract out to companies that have been convicted of violating federal or state antitrust laws.
IMHO, this was probably to keep monopolies from paying off people in local governments in return for them spending enormous sums of money on that company's products and/or services.
Some people seem to have the impression that this is just purchasing policy. Well, it ain't. It's state law. It's from A.R.S. (Arizona Revised Statues) 41-2613: Debarment and Suspension of Contractors.
"3. Conviction or civil judgment finding a violation by any person or any subsidiary or affiliate of any person under state or federal antitrust statutes."
It's a law, just like the laws against embezzlement or assault. It's not just a suggestion, it's a lot more. I hope the folks at PLUG carry this one all the way to the goalposts.
I believe that the URL name alone should convince the government types that Linux is a serious community to base its computer systems on.
Excellent! Excellent! This is an example of opensource thinking, when you don't pay a Lawyer to think for you, but you have people smarter than
one that are willing to do it for free. Good thinking. I don't mind paying State and Federal Tax, but it hurts me to see my money end up in Bill's pocket. Equal law for equal crime!
Speeding is a civil, not criminal, offence. Big difference.
--
"Freely" enjoying Microsoft since 1980.
Quit using silly legislation to further your own stupid agenda. Did you bother to ask the govt. officials whether or not they prefer MS to Linus?
Let the people decide, not the govt.
Monopolistic practices are no more criminal than speeding. No one from MS is going to jail.
Let's not buy any more electricity or use the phones either. Down with monopolies.
I don't know that this'll make a difference - I doubt many companies purchase directly from Microsoft, but rather from Dell or Compaq
The best thing about a boolean is even if you are wrong, you are only off by a bit.
Linux is ready for the home. You simply need people who dont look at it as something totally new and a big hassle, but rather people who are willing to occassoinally turn off the TV and stop browsing the pron sites for 1 or 2 every now and again.And read a goddam how-to or by one of those incredile teach yourself in 24 hour books.
I'm a high school student who gave a speach on linux in the computer lab and accutally let them use it.(specail thanks to Alpha and VNC) I didnt here comments about how it looked crude (thanks KDE 3.0). It was mostly questions about how do you do this and that came on the same cd you didnt have to download it WOW. Then how much does it cost? Its free wow!. Where do i get?.
I gave out 15 burned copies of mandrake 8.2 the next day. Then drove around helping people install it and answer peoples phone calls.
And it came down to 2 groups people willing to learn and those who were not. Of those 15 cd's i gave out 12 got installed. And I think some of them try to use it.
THe only bad part was they thought the speel on the GNU/GPL was boring.
If consumers are lemmings, they deserve what they get. It's a free market, they should take advantage of it.
... Like Bill Gates.
However, government as a collective enterprise by us, and is controlled by us. If we elect people who pass laws, we should also expect them to uphold them. And if we decide, collectively, not to do business with theives, but we also decide collectively that we don't want to force individuals to uphold those same standards, we can.
If there's really a need for a 'technology', then another vendor will step forward and provide it. Oh, you mean 'technologies' that are locked up, and can only be provided for by one source? In that case we *definitely* need to avoid having them in our government structures. Once said vendor gets the government hooked on it's dope, and the consumers following right along like lemmings, it can jack the price up, or control the buying cycles and reap billions
-- Ender, Duke_of_URL
Apologies to the BSD guys here - but BSD is a lot more conservative in their hardware support. Sometimes it just won't run all the peripherals or newer hardware you own, making it an unworkable option.)
That's true to an extent in the laptop world. It's not true for servers/desktops outside of very cheap hardware, and to discount it with "it doesn't run some hardware" like that smacks of pure Linux-at-all-costs zealotry. Not to mention that you select your software THEN buy your hardware, not the other way around. Unless, of course, you're a game-playing kiddie...
We had BeOS - but it's dead. We had OS/2 - but it's dead. We still have Mac OS, but it's proprietary.
Both BeOS and OS/2 were proprietary. More zealotry. Surely the argument should be that under current regulations they should not be using Microsoft products, but no, it's been twisted into "They must use Linux".
As usual, the Linux advocates think everyone else only has a hammer...
You're not pulling them in for a second trial, if you failed to convict them on the first (I know two trials civil & criminal seem like that, but they're not)
And governments do it the same way they post sex-offender's addresses, even after they've served their time, and restrict voting privledges, and restrict ex-inmates from protecting themselves (which is really messed up, it's not like the cops are gonna protect them, the cops don't even have to protect non-convicted people in society).
-- Ender, Duke_of_URL
being successful. I don't buy this horseshit that you geeks spout off that open source and free software is the greatest thing since sliced bread. What you expect is that the rest of the world is as right brained as you, learned to use the computer at age 6, and can program their way to a better tomorrow. Well, quite frankly, I prefer to live my life pursuing nobler goals than donating my time to the charity we like to call open source.
y friends." Oh, and Microsoft is bad. Their game console will fail. Their OS sucks. StarOffice and OpenOffice beat Micro$oft Office. Long live Linux, Mac OS R00L3Z. Palm and Sony and AOL to the rescue of our economy!
Wake up and smell reality. Microsoft is older than you are, and if you were on time for the computer revolution, perhaps you would understand that software is worth paying for. Most of the open source shit out there doesn't do half of what Microsoft's software does yesterday half as well as Microsoft's does today, the interfaces are blatantly copied from Microsofts designs, and yet you herald it as if it is some kind of holy trinity.
Case in point: StarOffice/OpenOffice. For free you get interoperability with Microsoft Office files produced and consumed by Microsoft Office 97. After Microsoft Office 97 came Office 98 (Mac), 2000, 2001 (Mac), and XP/X (Mac). And yet, the interoperability with Office 97 files is only marginal! I hear that TABLE support is broken. Tables were working in Word for Windows 1.0! I had a PC with Windows 3.0 back then...
There's plenty of great software out there, but if it were as good as Microsoft's was last year, the year before, or 5 years before that, then it might be worth selling today. Office 97 came out in 1997. The fact that even though you *GIVE* it away, people still prefer Windows, is a testament to what you guys like to call "the problem". That problem is that you want people to switch to your hobby OS because it's free, when you will never have the resources (also known as money, time, engineers, management, recruiting, marketing, etc) to produce something half as good.
IBM does, but IBM sells something for their efforts... (My sister works there... good company.)
People aren't interested in reading a manual to install a product, or spending hours with a horribly broken UI, or configuring their software with a command line interface. They are interested in something which works with their stuff, and gives them a simple environment.
Mac OS X isn't a great OS because it's based on BSD. It's a great OS because Apple pays people to figure out how a certain portion of the public thinks and feels, and they make enough money to pay these people to work on it full time.
Sun's Solaris OS and Oracle's Database aren't thousands of dollars because they aren't successful. They cost thousands of dollars because they save companies millions.
The difference between free software and commercial software is that (honest) people pay for commercial software development with their wallet, and cheap people pay for free software with their time. My time is worth more to me, and most business executives agree.
Linux isn't a bad OS, if you understand that to install device X on your computer you have to recompile the OS, and you know how to do that.
On Windows XP Pro, however, I attached my QuickCam, it detected it, installed the devices for it, and I could use it to take pictures or record video from the "My Computer" icon in 20 seconds. Heck, I bought a VCR that cost me more than Windows XP.
I honestly don't understand the Zealotry out there. What is so much better about paying no price for software of low build quiality with half the features of commercial software that is attempting to clone. There are some exceptions.
I just love to make fun of the "Screw Microsoft" crowd. You guys really take the cake for stupidity.
Slashdot, "News for nerds, stuff that matters... for open source zealots, people who steal other's intellectual property, and their wanna-be-rich-and-famous-for-doing-something-nerd
If I had a dime for every anti-Microsoft article on Slashdot, I'd be a very wealthy man. Mind you, it wouldn't be half as much money as Bill Gates makes on a good day of trading, or half as much as he loses on a bad day, but it would be enough.
Trying to force somebody to not use your competition and use yours sounds like a very MS tactic. If you act like your enemy you are just as bad. While technically you could say that they are just trying to get their gov to follow the law, if MS had tried this tactic everybody here would be pissed. I am a Linux advocate, but more importantly I am also a choice advocate.
Abdul
well, actually, this was a rather intelligent response to a problem that had plagued arizona for years prior to Ev Mecham and his bunch (we had rampant corruption in this state with regards to contract negotiations prior to 1990). In a lot of ways, the law which prevents the county from negotiating contracts with convicted criminals/entities was designed to prevent even bigger problems. Lets hope it works in this case. BTW, anyone happen to have the e-mail addresses of the county board members handy?
proudhawk (aka Technomage)
Understanding is much like a 3-edged-sword. in this: there are always 2 sides and the truth.
You forgot to mention the one fact that most people will recognize: Maricopa county contains Phoenix, Scottsdale, and Tempe.
Phoenix is, as I recall, the fifth largest city in the U.S.
Uh, now *you're* the one coming off as an "anti-Linux zealot". Not sure what your OS of choice is. Obviously neither Microsoft *or* Linux, and it sounds like not BeOS or OS/2 either.
Therefore, I'm guessing you're either a Solaris junkie, or a frustrated BSD user who hates the fact that Linux steals the spotlight away from them so often.
Since you automatically find fault with OS/2 and BeOS for their "proprietary nature" - I'm thinking you probably prefer BSD.
Anyway - I stand by my original statement. Linux is quickly becoming the only option left other than Microsoft for a viable x86 OS.
Apple could add an interesting twist to things by releasing an x86 version of MacOS - IMHO. But I'd also be willing to wager they'll never do it. Why? Because that would instantly devalue/invalidate all of their hardware. (Why pay a premium for a proprietary Mac when you can run the same thing faster on a late-model x86 processor?)
BTW, I never discounted BSD at all. I just question its ability to be competitive at this point in the game. By the very nature of its licensing, people can easily take portions of its code for their use in any other project they like. While that's great from a philosophical standpoint, and will keep it strong and viable with certain sectors - it also nullifys its significance as a stand-alone OS choice.
AKA. "My company, Widgets, Inc. - sees no point in implementing BSD Unix. We're already using the advantageous portions of their networking code as built-in firmware in our routers. All the applications can run under Linux. In fact, my copies of Windows NT use many of their command line utilities, ported directly over from their source code. If I want to buy commercial support, it's available from a number of vendors with Linux. Not so with BSD."
it's fixed
No, the rest of the world would look clueless.