Mandrake to Come Preloaded on Wal-Mart PCs

surfimp writes "Here's a story from NewsForge: 'MandrakeSoft CEO Jacques Le Marois confirms the news this morning, and company spokeswoman Margaret Waters says, while a contract with Microtel has not been finalized, the company is working on getting Mandrake certified to run like clockwork on the Microtel systems. Waters is hopeful that the dotted line will be signed and PCs up for sale by the end of next week.'" Update: 06/20 17:21 GMT by T : Ooops! The Mandrake spokeswoman's name is Margaret Waples, not Waters. Apologies, and thanks to Todd Lyons of Mandrakesoft for the correction.

Comments

Not at Walmart, at walmart.com

[ShawnDoc]

For those that are too lazy to read the story, the computers pre-loaded with Mandrake are going to be available at walmart.com, not at Wal-Mart retail stores. There's a difference.

Re:Not at Walmart, at walmart.com

[Knoxvill3]

Good Call. I was too honestly making a shopping list for walmart (Deoderant, Sams Choice, over Stuffed Bean bag, Microtel machine running Linux..).

But I can see where they are just pushing on their website as opposed to in stores. For one, think of how many stores they have throughout the country (US), just putting 10 of these units alone is quite a chunk of change, and if no one bites at the offer, there now stuck with all that inventory on these machines.

But from a website, you keep it at one area, you don't have to stock up on the machines, you can pass the order directly to the manufacture and have them ship it to the customer (In this case Microtel.), this way you keep a lower surplus, and the customer still get's their product.

Re:Not at Walmart, at walmart.com

[HiThere]

But that's also where they are selling the Lindows computers isn't it? Sounds fair. I wonder what the price difference is?

Re:Not at Walmart, at walmart.com

[1010011010]

They could still let people order the PC through the local WalMart store, and the fulfill from the central warehouse. It would be nice to see a display saying "Buy a WalMart PC!" in the stores. They need to make a deal with an ISP now -- "includes internet service for 6 months."

Actually, they should pressure AOL to write a Linux version of their client, and then sell "WalMart AOL-PCs!"

I think their average customer might be interested in it. After all, they sold those MSN Companions for $200+ each ... and they just run Wince.

Re:Not at Walmart, at walmart.com

[sharkey]

the computers pre-loaded with Mandrake are going to be available at walmart.com, not at Wal-Mart retail stores. There's a difference.

Right. To get the PCs preloaded with Mandrake, you simply drive to Wal-Mart, purchase a Lindows PC, take it home and sign up with an ISP. Then, connect to the Internet, visit walmart.com and order yourself a Mandrake PC. Finally, return the Lindows PC to the store and wait for your new Mandrake PC.

Re:Not at Walmart, at walmart.com

[xtremex]

I also own a NIC (thinknic.com) that I use as a thin client, but the installed software has a Netzero Client for Linux.Since it is a Java app, they just had to change the dialing routine since the original Netzero was written using J++ (no cross platform stuff there!)

wow

[TheMMaster]

I am no american so I might be talking out of my ass here, but it seems that wallmart really is trying to bring choice to ther customers, I just wonder if they'll support all OS's they ship now (mandrake, windows and lindows), if they do, and are succesfull, maybe more companies will follow...
I can't help but feel that this is "a good thing (TM)"
I'll bet dell is really wondering what they did wrong back then ;)

Re:wow

[BionicElf]

WalMart doesn't provide support for anything they sell. Typically, there's a card in the box that you use to register with the source company (in this case, MandrakeSoft) to get support. I would assume the same practice would be followed here.

Re:wow

[astrashe]

I think that WalMart is trying to push prices lower, and that choice is a byproduct of that. They are as feared and hated in their circles as Microsoft is in the tech world.

Small computer shops in California are selling decent PCs without OSs or monitors for under $300. The cost of the OS is becoming a more significant chunk of the total price, and if you want to push the prices way down, you've got to confront it.

For all we know, this is brinksmanship, and Wal Mart is just trying to push MS into giving them special deals on OS pricing. They've done that to other suppliers.

Re:wow

[SuperCal]

I don't really think that WalMart cares if its customers are getting a choice. I think what they are trying to do is to figure out wether or not they can make higher profits by avioding the MS tax(I know, I know, that term is getting old). If people will buy a PC w/o Windows and Walmart can keep some of the difference then you can bet they will stick with it. If not they won't keep linux around just to give a choice to customers.

Re:wow

[SirSlud]

Walmart is notorious for demanding that magazine covers and CD covers be changed if they are going to carry it. Seeing as Walmart represents 15% of all US music sales, and an even higher percent of the magazine retail market (I think, might be wrong on that), publishers constantly have to succumb to Walmarts desire to retain its 'family image'. In that sense, Walmart censors .. they couldn't give a rats ass about choice. They are down to make money, and by opting to force magazines to self-censor, I don't really think choice has much to do with this story.

I think money. The margins. No MS Tax. Yadda yadda. Ironically, due to their size that causes the negative behaviour referenced above (nevermind they represent the new generation of ultra-shitty employers), they might just be more than a little 'blip' on MS's radar. It's like Godzilla and Mothra; they're both evil, but if one takes down the other a few deserved notches, I won't complain!

Re:wow

[lynx_user_abroad]

NO chance of Wal-mart offering support.

Damn straight. But then again, you know Linux, don't you? Ever thought of adding Lindows(tm) Consulting/Support to your shingle?

As you point out, you won't be competing against Wal*Mart, and I'll bet Microsoft has already warned every large consulting/service organization not to even think about offering Linux(tm) or Lindows(tm) support, or they can kiss their Microsoft Certified Partner designation good-bye.

Yet if Wat*Mart sells it, you know there's gonna be a market for technicians to service it....

Wal*Mart may be a crocodile, but as any plover will tell you, there's food in them there teeth.

Re:wow

[Brian_Ellenberger]

>Walmart is notorious for demanding that magazine >covers and CD covers be changed if they are >going to carry it. They are down to make money, >and by opting to force magazines to self-censor, >I don't really think choice has much to do with >this story.

That's not censorship, that's is choice. Don't like it, go to Target or KMart. I personally love the Wal-Mart policy and shop there because if it. But that's my choice.

I mean, there is alot of crap out there in this country. Which is fine, it is a free country. But just because you create crap doesn't mean people or corporations have to buy it! That's the other part of a free country.

Don't you think it is pretty arrogant of you to basically say, "I don't care what Wal-Mart or its loyal customers say, you must carry these soft-porn magazines and raunchy CDs"?

Re:wow

[SirSlud]

Two things:

1. Walmart gets magainze covers changed before they are printed. That means, *every store* carries the 'walmart approved' copy. Thats not choice. Thats Walmart unfairly influencing what musicians (Nirvana is one such band that changed the cover of their CD before releasing it, *soley* due to Walmart issuing a complaint with their label.) and magazines wish to print. You really shouldn't talk like you do, in a country which claims free speech (both the right to be free of censorship, and the right to be free of undue pressures to self-censor.) is one of its founding principals. But you dont sound like somebody whos interested in these types of issues. No worries, people like me will care about the world you live in such that you dont wake up and find free speech an outdated concept in a not-so-distant future.

2. These are not soft-porn magazines. This is Time. Rolling Stone. Seventeen. All mainstream magazines. Many magainzes specifically call up Walmart and seek approval for their covers pre-printed, because if Walmart refuses to carry the published run of the magazine, you cannot justify to stockholders, as a magazine publisher, giving up 15% of your sales right off the bat.

You dont sound like you have a clue as to the scope of leverage and power that Walmart brandishes in the marketplace. Sit down and really think about what it means, to have virtually every magazine in your country seek approval from Walmart before running the presses. Walmart is censoring your culture.

Re:wow

[SirSlud]

ROFL.

"free market" is when one retailer influences what *every retailer* in the market is going to get, as inventory? YOU PEOPLE DONT UNDERSTAND - ALL STORES GET THE WALMART APPROVED COPY, INCLUDING COMPETITORS. Its too expensive to print the 'Walmart' copy, and the 'Everybody else' copy, so all retailers get the 'Walmart' copy.

Its about as anti-free market as you can get. The customers dont decide, the sales person does. I feel so sorry for you people.

Re:wow

[SirSlud]

And if *every store* doesnt make sense to you, thats *every store* in your country, including Target, etc, etc. All stores. Only one version of a magazine will be printed (simple economics), and currently, Walmart has the size and might to influence what gets published in your lovely free country.

Re:wow

[SirSlud]

and dont you think its arrogant of you to assume I was talking about soft-porn mags and raunchy CDs? lol, how old are you? I'm talking about regular fashion and popular culture magazines, and pop culture bands. Mainstream stuff. Walmart is notorious for causing at least one magazine a month to change its cover to appease Walmarts 'family image' by reducing the amount of *gasp* skin or any messages which do not align with its hygenically squeaky clean image. I cannot stress enough that this is the version *all retailers* will recieve for any given month and magazine.

Re:wow

[Mr. McGibby]

Well, apparantly, the contents of the cover isn't so important to the publisher that they can't at least stick an extra page on the front to cover up the offending cover for issues sent to Walmart. Walmart isn't censoring the content of the magazine, which is really what the magazine is about anyway. Walmart isn't the one "not buying" the offensive covers, it's the shoppers, the family-values crowd. They aren't as small a minority as you might think. They are the 15% who don't buy magazines (TIME, Rolling Stone, whatever) that offend them.

(Please, Rolling Stone? It may be mainstream but I wouldn't let my hormone-ridden sons have it.)

Re:wow

[SirSlud]

> Walmart isn't the one "not buying" the offensive covers, it's the shoppers, the family-values crowd.

Kind of hard to prove that if they dont actually carry them, now, isn't it? For that matter, that *nobody* ends up carrying them?

I don't really care about reasons or excuses; only that magazines willingly admit to changing their covers (content-alterting self-censorship is more common in the news biz, true) is due to one retailer, in what some people insisnt on holding up as an example of a functioning free market. Please! If people wont buy it, they wont buy it. Walmart seems to think that you are incapable of even *viewing* a potentially controversial cover and making a decision whether or not to buy it - they make that choice for you! Since you dont know what the pre-Walmart-Approved covers are, you're in no position to evaluate whether they are censoring material you deem censor-worthy. Alas, as usual, since they are successful and wealthy, people are all too happy to assume (envy?) that they must be the poster child of how to run a retail conglomerate and that all is good in the world.

Oh, and way to keep the lid on your sons' hormones! Heaven forbid they should learn that tool of the devil, masturbation, nevermind potentially read about musicians! *guffaw*

Re:wow

[Erasmus Darwin]

"it's the shoppers, the family-values crowd. They aren't as small a minority as you might think. They are the 15% who don't buy magazines (TIME, Rolling Stone, whatever) that offend them."

You're mistakenly assuming that all Wal-mart customers are people who shop their because they share the same family-value belief. There are many other reasons why people might shop at Wal-mart including price, convenience, and selection.

Re:wow

[SirSlud]

Even if other retailers never get to sell the copy that the producer *wanted* to make? That every other retailer gets the 'Walmart' approved copy, and that those who create these things must sacrifice their intentions at the behest of one private entity?

Has the USA really gone mad like this? Can nobody see where this takes you? I'll give you one guess .. Walmart et. al become Government number II, and you kick yourself realizing that in disempowering your state, you empowered a few private citizens, who are bound, sooner or later, to do something which actually affects you, personally. It's a shame that it seems people need to have stuff infringe on their life before they recognize that that /. looney was worried not about the specifics of now, but the logical conclution of supporting those who do what you dont want your government to do, and get richer while doing it! It's sad and funny at the same time!

Re:wow

[SubtleNuance]

Brian~

You are exactly the kind of self-centred, ignorant boob that makes middle-america look like assholes.

Walmart is notorious for its slave-labour abuse, employee abuse - it runs willy-nilly in the business of producers and dictates their business TOO THEM, their censorship is All Too Real. If an RIAA(whore) wants to have a CD on the shelf at WalMart, they better not release the 'next-big' CD with something offensive to WalMart - they might find all their stuff in the back-racks, or off the shelves altogether... sheesh, give your head a shake.

Walmart is a monster in the marketplace causing irreparable damage to the real freedom people have in the market. How long will it be until WalMart has raised the bar on the retail business so far no one can even CHALLENGE them? For God's sakes, Windows is an ABUSIVE and OBVIOUS monopoly and there is not even the political will in America to fix that! WalMart is a much BIGGER company already, and its not even scratching the surface on the whole and total domination it is embarking on...

When walmart is has a monopoly on retail (laugh now...just wait) where they are responsible for 90% of all retail sales in the USA, and they alone can deliver products to the marketplace (because they have exclusivity arrangements with other mega-corps) you'll be singing a different tune about "loyal customer" and "freedom-loving-American" bullshit...

You idiots cant see beyond your self-serving myopia long enough to give a shit about the big picture - its almost laughable how you can be a 'loyal customer' of a mega-corp that couldn't give two-shits about you or anyone-else; they've demonstrated they Dont Care a million times - but you morons keep shoving $$$ in the bank for them....

Real Fucking Smart

Re:wow

[johnnyb]

The market does decide because a) the market goes to Wal-Mart and b) the market is the ones that go to Wal-Mart for it's family attitude.

Why is having questionable covers in family stores such a big deal?

The fact is, _families_ are who these magazine's customers are, and therefore them being more family-friendly to sell to their audience, who happens to shop at Wal-Mart, is not a crime.

Re:wow

[nathanm]

1. Walmart gets magainze covers changed before they are printed. That means, *every store* carries the 'walmart approved' copy. Thats not choice. Thats Walmart unfairly influencing what musicians (Nirvana is one such band that changed the cover of their CD before releasing it, *soley* due to Walmart issuing a complaint with their label.) and magazines wish to print.

There's nothing unfair about WalMart's policy. Nobody has a right to sell their products in any particular store. If they want to sell in WalMart, they'll just have to comply with their policies.

You really shouldn't talk like you do, in a country which claims free speech (both the right to be free of censorship, and the right to be free of undue pressures to self-censor.) is one of its founding principals.

The right of free speech is protection from the government. The first amendment starts out Congress shall make no law... Gee, I can't find WalMart anywhere in the US Constitution.

2. These are not soft-porn magazines. This is Time. Rolling Stone. Seventeen. All mainstream magazines.

Mainstream magazines and the advertisements therein show a lot more skin than they used to. Many people, myself included, see this as a problem. Just because something is popular doesn't make it right, or preferable. Personally, I could care less what's in these magazines, I just won't buy them.

Many magainzes specifically call up Walmart and seek approval for their covers pre-printed, because if Walmart refuses to carry the published run of the magazine, you cannot justify to stockholders, as a magazine publisher, giving up 15% of your sales right off the bat.

Then that's a choice they've made. No censorship involved.

Re:wow

[ceswiedler]

You're absolutely right, and that's capitalism and free speech at it's best.

The good news is that you don't have to shop at WalMart. You do not have a choice when it comes to laws, the government, and the constitution. And that's a major difference--really the only difference that matters.

Other powerful groups like the AARP, various lobbies, and Microsoft have major "unfair" effects on your life as well. That's just the way it is.

You're free to fight these groups, if you can get enough people to agree with you. If you can't get enough people to agree with you...tough titties.

I'll agree with you, once you stop whining.

Re:wow

[SirSlud]

To quoth all the free-marketers, let the market rather than the marketer decide?

Re:wow

[realdpk]

They should not carry the magazines at all, if they find them offensive. Duh. It's that simple.

Re:wow

[SirSlud]

Of course, its all within the rules, and its all fair. I know. I'm simply attempting to raise awareness, because I feel many people dont even know this occurs. It may be within the rules, but you never progress unless you are aware of what those rules are, the things that influence them, and which ones could benifit from some revision, tuning, or adjustment.

Yes, I also bastardized the Constitution, but the ends justify the means - just because some guy has a title 'government' and another guy 'private store employee' doesn't mean that I'd prefer one over the other when it comes to how they affect my life. The constitution was drawn up when companies were not nearly as powerful as government. Now that they are more economically and culturally powerful than government (I leave out militarily for the sticklers who think this point is moot), the constitution, followed to the letter, does not neccessarily reflect the best way of seeding checks and balances into the American society, from my vantage point. Heck, I still havnt seen a universal argeement on what 'militia' refers to in these times in that right to bear arms amendment, so its not even like it _can_ be followed to the letter sometimes, either.

Definately one of the more constructive replies I've gotten, however.

Re:wow

[SirSlud]

*clap clap* I couldn't have flamed him better myself.

And I'm all over the proportial vote .. we need that bad.

if I knew a girl in the toronto area who could formulate just a few of your viewpoints, I'd be in love. dam my sociopolitical frusterations.

Re:wow

[SirSlud]

>But really, is asking magazines for something that is decent for families to see really asking that much?

You could find out, if you ever had the opportunity to speak in the market. Oh, but wait! You dont get a chance to decide - Walmart does it for you! :)

Re:wow

[WNight]

Oh give it up. Everybody knows what you're saying, nobody is reacting because it's obvious and irrelevant.

If you want to sell to a bunch of people, you make a bland product. So what?

If the magazine cared enough about their covers they'd either print two runs (cheap when you print huge numbers) or ignore Walmart's demands.

If a boycott is good when we do it (don't buy MS, they're scum) why is a boycott bad when Walmart does it? It's a fundamentally democratic action, it's spending your money on products you wish to support.

If enough people care about this, they can demand that the cover is changed back, if they outweigh Walmart, they win.

Yes, I understand that this changes magazines I see on the stands. But I don't buy them because they're all bland mass-market crap. If I buy magazines, I buy smaller-run, independent stuff because that's what I want to support.

But really, this doesn't affect free speech. You're still free to say whatever you want, I'm still free to ignore it.

Re:wow

[Kintanon]

I don't like the way you seem to be defining 'Family' here. What you REALLY mean is children, right? Me and my Wife are a family. We enjoy porn, or even just slightly racy magazines, etc...

You're talking about the entire world catering to a section of the population under the age of 18 to make sure that they don't see anything that might offend their parents, who can't be bothered to teach them the values that will innure them to such influence. I'm constantly annoyed that I can't rent decent porn at blockbuster when me and my wife have a romantic weekend. The reason blockbuster doesn't carry it is that 'Family' friendly image. What they really mean to say is that they worship at the cult of baby and don't give a rats ass what the single/childfree people with disposable income want.

Kintanon

Re:wow

[DunbarTheInept]

Well, apparantly, the contents of the cover isn't so important to the publisher that they can't at least stick an extra page on the front to cover up the offending cover for issues sent to Walmart.

That's not what happens. The wallmart standards end up defining what will be published *everywhere*, not just at wallmart. I'd much rather see Walmart have the guts to actually *not carry* the material that offends them, instead of getting everyone else to change to their standard.

And just once I'd like to see a supplier with the guts to tell Wallmart "no", when Wallmart asks them to censor their product. Just once I'd like to see a supplier with the guts to say, "we'll accept the loss of 15% of the market in order to retain the loyalty of the other 85% of our customers."
This is becoming more commonplace: As the theory goes, an unregulated free-market ends up giving the customers exactly what they want, so the best thing to do is have absolutely no restrictions on it. But in practice, the product availability is blocked off at a level higher up the supply chain where the end-consumer doesn't have as much say. Then the stupid people analizing the situation come to the conclusion that nothing untoward is happening because the customers are buying the products, therefore they like them the way they are. This ignores the fact that the way the system is laid out the customer is largely ignorant of what the choices were that got filtered out before he saw them. Given a choice of product A or B the customer picked A, but the system hides the fact that the customer might have preferred C or D if they hadn't been scrapped before he ever saw them.

The problem is, I don't know what the solution to the situation is. It certainly isn't more government influence. In an informed marketplace, unrestricted capitalism leads to the greatest freedom, but the marketplace is not an informed one, and it becomes closer and closer to impossible with each passing year for the marketplace to ever become informed as the sheer volume of stuff to know in order to make an intelligent buying decision increases.

Re:wow

[SirSlud]

Its about who has the advantage is all. I like fairness. I'm whining because things arnt fair. I'm also whining because lots of people *think* things are fair, and I'd like them to know otherwise.
> Everybody knows what you're saying, nobody is reacting because it's obvious and irrelevant.

Thats your judgement. I dont believe people people are aware of the implications. If they are, sure, then its irrelevant. But its not. People do not know what you consider 'obvious'.

> If a boycott is good when we do it (don't buy MS, they're scum) why is a boycott bad when Walmart does it? It's a fundamentally democratic action, it's spending your money on products you wish to support.

Ooooh, now I know you're missing the difference. Walmart gets things changed. I'm free to boycott, as is Walmart. The point is, Walmart *doesnt* boycott, they use their size and power to pressure other entities into taking actions they would not have were it not for Walmarts monopolistic position. If I could call up MS and 'boycott' them by having them change their logo, or startup screen to say "SirSlud Rules!" (just to compare to a magazine cover in that the contents dont change), I'd feel alot less inclined to complain.

Re:wow

[goldmeer]

"free market" is when one retailer influences what *every retailer* in the market is going to get, as inventory? YOU PEOPLE DONT UNDERSTAND - ALL STORES GET THE WALMART APPROVED COPY, INCLUDING COMPETITORS. Its too expensive to print the 'Walmart' copy, and the 'Everybody else' copy, so all retailers get the 'Walmart' copy. Its about as anti-free market as you can get. The customers dont decide, the sales person does. I feel so sorry for you people.

You have to be kidding!

You completely discount the free will of the publishing companies to either "stick to their guns" and publish something without Wal-Mart's blessing or to publish 2 versions one for Wal-Mart, and one for The Rest Of The World(TM).

Don't hide behind the copout "It would cost more, therefore the stockholders of the publishing companies would not be happy if they did this" If you need to go this route, then WHO is really doing the "censoring" that you speak of? Wal-Mart, or the management of the publishing companies on behalf of the shareholders?

You see, this is as free market as it gets. Wal-Mart as a customer (They purchase goods, and sell them on to the masses) has decided that they will not purchase goods that they feel are not a good match with the image they want to project. The only real way for the "Free Market" to correct this is for the publishing companies to take up the battle and refuse to sell *anything* to Wal-Mart unless they drop their restrictive policies. Imagine if you could not purchase any "popular" magazines, music or computer game software from Wal-Mart because the industries have decided to boycott Wal-Mart.

How does this happen? The pressure for this to happen has to come from consumers. And as you are (or should be) aware, the consumers aren't all that likely to rise up in masses to put the pressure on the media publishers.

It's just a contest between the publishers, Wal-Mart and the public to see "Who has the biggest set" and right now, it's Wal-Mart.

Re:wow

[DunbarTheInept]

There are many other reasons why people might shop at Wal-mart including price, convenience, and selection.

... and the fact that this "family friendly" store squeezed out of existance all the local family-owned alternatives to shop at.

Re:wow

[SirSlud]

The Government says you can't do something - guys with guns come and take you away if you do it. Or, heck, heres an idea, I dont do it, and then I vote or write or work towards getting it changed. Or, if that doesn't work, I wonder why it comes advertised as a democracy, and either move or work towards changing it.

Walmart says you can't do something - you shop somewhere else, or sell your product somewhere else. Good idea, were it not for the WHOLE frickin point of this discussion is that there is an ever diminishing amount of options .. its even feasible there wont be *any* in the near future (to which I would imagine most idiots would say, "Good for walmart, they succeeded!"). And if I go ahead and do what they say I can't - guess who comes, carrying what, and takes me where. Gasp - the same folks!

This is about accountability, size, and candidacy. You are obviously more scared of your government than your companies. My view is you can always shed some blood and overthrow your government - but you cant do that with monopolies, because .. hey, what do you know, the government is in large part *there* to protect companies and you're certainly not going to try and overthrow your government in order to go after one of the many private entities that need to be taken down a notch or two.

Keep painting that market transparent, functioning, fair .. but dont bother me when the curtain falls and all hell breaks loose AND nobodies bothered themselves with the challenge getting the *real* muscle (the government) on their side.

Re:wow

[SirSlud]

> Don't hide behind the copout "It would cost more, therefore the stockholders of the publishing companies would not be happy if they did this" If you need to go this route, then WHO is really doing the "censoring" that you speak of? Wal-Mart, or the management of the publishing companies on behalf of the shareholders?

AhhHA! See? Maybe its /Walmarts/ stockholders, that refuse to swallow the cost of an unknown number of 'offended costomer' complains and bad PR. Or maybe its the publishers! It certainly is .. oh wait, I forgot we wouldn't be having this problem if Walmart wasn't so huge.

Nevermind that the Magazine industry has been very touch and go for the past few years, so they are hardly in the 'laughing all the way to the bank' position that Walmart is.

When it comes down to a tie in who bears responsibility, I will *always* nail the more well-off participant for not being thankful for their good situation and taking one for the team.

Re:wow

[nathanm]

Heck, I still havnt seen a universal argeement on what 'militia' refers to in these times in that right to bear arms amendment, so its not even like it _can_ be followed to the letter sometimes, either.

No need for an agreement. Look no further than 10 USC Sec. 311, the official definition of militia codified in federal statutes. It states:

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Re:wow

[DunbarTheInept]

in disempowering your state, you empowered a few private citizens, who are bound, sooner or later, to do something which actually affects you, personally.

Well said. The first myth about anarchy is the myth that anarchy is possible. Try it, and it won't last long. Ditch the government, and something else fills the space left behind, itself becoming the new government.

While it's true that companies competing in an open, fair market with free competition end up fufilling the common good whether they like it or not (capitalism can transform greed into a public good), it is NOT true that leaving the market alone will result in such an open, fair market with free competition, and that's the one sticking point that the Libertarians just don't get.

(Which is such a shame, because I agree with them on so many of their other issues that I'm still always temped to join them, but this one sticking point is a Very Big One.) Leave the market alone and in *many* markets you will get a free and open market, but not in all of them. Like it or not, natural monopolies do exist. People living in the same town have no choice but to choose the same water and sewer service provider as each other.

People who want to talk to each other on the phone would end up having to be hooked to the same phone provider as each other if the government didn't force phone companies to rent the use of their lines to each other at reasonable rates.

In the case of natural monopolies, there is going to end up being a restriction of choice anyway, whether it comes from government or from the one monopoly company that comes out on top. And the irony is that the way to maximize freedom in the marketplace it to establish rules that *force* companies to "play nice" with each other in these kinds of markets.

Now, some of the more moderate Libertarians on the fringes agree with this and understand that 100% full-blown lassiez-faire in every market isn't going to work. But then there are those that actually write the rhetoric literature and direct things, and they don't agree, and that scares me.

The reason government is an evil (a necessary evil, but still an evil) is *because* it is the biggest monopoly there is, and all the problems of monopolies that are not beholden to their customers tend to come up with governments. But replacing it with a corporate monopoly doesn't improve matters.

Re:wow

[johnnyb]

What they really mean to say is that they worship at the cult of baby and don't give a rats ass what the single/childfree people with disposable income want.

*********

I.e. - a significant portion of their customers.

As a parent, I don't want my child seeing racy stuff just walking in a store. I'd like to be able to _shop_ without having to explain why such material is indecent. Therefore, I go to Wal-Mart. It seems that a lot of people have the same idea (notice the number of children walking with their parents in walmart). These people constitute a _market_, and a large one at that. The beauty of capitalism is that the market decides. If you aren't a part of the mass market, don't go to mass-market places. It's that simple.

Is there nowhere else to find porn? I mean really, if blockbuster doesn't rent porn, find someone who does! It's not the end of the world. It's not like Ma and Pa Video requires a different kind of VCR to play their tapes.

It's not like buying at Target all-of-a-sudden makes your stuff incompatible with the rest of the world. It's not like Wal-Mart lies and cheats it's way to the top. They are what they say they are. The market likes them.

Re:wow

[johnnyb]

They should not carry the magazines at all, if they find them offensive. Duh. It's that simple.

********

Unless they don't find them offensive with different covers. Duh. It's that simple. The magazine _wants_ to be in Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart _wants_ to have the magazine if it's not offensive. This is good for both companies and the consumers.

Re:wow

[Sloppy]

Even if other retailers never get to sell the copy that the producer *wanted* to make?

This can only happen if the producer sells out, deciding that Walmart sales are more important than art. And if that's the case, then I don't give a fuck about whatever he was going to say.

("I may not agree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death for your right t-- oh, what's that? You don't think your own speech is important enough to sacrifice a little in the marketplace? Forget what I was going to say about fighting to the death.")

If it's anything at all important, then other retailers will have the copy that the producer wanted to make, and Walmart won't have it at all.

Can nobody see where this takes you?

It takes me to where I am today, where I buy almost all my music CDs from internet stores, and the chances that Walmart carries any particular CD that I want, is somewhere between 1% to 5%. And it's not a big deal. If anything, it's good: some businesses have good reason to fear Walmart, but with Walmart voluntarily choosing not to compete in certain areas, other businesses thankfully have it easier. Nobody is having their rights infringed.

Re:wow

[MAXOMENOS]

Respectfully, you are downplaying Wal-Mart's influence.

They don't just dictate what goes on the magazine covers; sometimes they dictate what goes in the magazine itself.

They don't just change the album covers; they sometimes change the lyrics, censor lyrics (excuse me, "make distribution of the album conditional upon a change of lyrics"), or remove songs entirely.

Don't even get me started on the whole women's health thing.

In a lot of very real ways, Wal-mart doesn't just offer consumers a choice, it determines what consumers can choose, in and out of its stores. Is this what capitalism is meant to support?

Re:wow

[MAXOMENOS]

If a boycott is good when we do it (don't buy MS, they're scum) why is a boycott bad when Walmart does it? It's a fundamentally democratic action, it's spending your money on products you wish to support.

I think you may be comparing apples to oranges. In the former case, you're talking about individual customers (thousands or millions of individuals) making the choice. In the latter case, you're talking about a few Wal-mart employees (the people who decide what products go on the shelves) making the choice. In fact, you may even find that Wal-mart's relatively few decision makers have significantly greater power than all but the largest grass-roots efforts. This does not strike me as democratic, at least not strictly speaking.

Re:wow

[Kintanon]

Part of it is location, I've made a choice to not have a car for various reasons. So I'm limited in the distance I can travel. Luckily I live in an area where I don't have to shop at walmart, or rent movies from blockbuster. So this isn't a problem for me personally.

However, you people with kids cost stores a lot more than I do. Your kids mess up the ailes, futz with the merchandise, handle the food, make messes that the employees have to clean up and annoy the other customers (Not necessarily your kids in particular, but possibly). I on the other hand, go in, buy all my stuff and leave. I make life easy for the cashiers, and I have more disposable income than most parents.

Oh, and as a point to ponder, the childfree population is growing rapidly, so someday you just might have to deal with the opposite situation where your kids aren't allowed into a resteraunt after 8pm, or can't get into certain movie theatres, etc... because the childfree people want to have their dinner and see their movie without being disturbed by your babbling brood of sub-literate vermin.
No offense meant to you personally or your family, and children, just a comment on the general state of children and parents in my area.

Kintanon

Re:wow

[nathanm]

This is almost exactly how movie censorship works in Sweden. If you want to show your movie on big cinemas, you have to have it approved by the censorship board. If not, you can show it anyway, for example on satellite channels.

This is a bad analogy. Most Americans have a multitude of choices where to shop. Where I live (Minneapolis) there are literally hundreds of places to shop more convenient, and usually just as cheap, as WalMart.

If you don't think the Walmart system (since they are so dominating) is censorship, then you are either blind or otherwise challenged.

How is WalMart dominating? Elsewhere under this article, I've seen a figure of 15% market share for WalMart. I don't know how accurate it is, but that's hardly dominating. There are plenty of other retailers to sell your products in.

Re:wow

[legoboy]

Gee, are you Canadian?

Oh, look! Your .sig says you are! What a surprise. Colour me shocked. Not.

Lesson to readers: Canada's left is tired and dying, but they'll continue to hate success until they finally perish.

Ever heard of the internet, you clueless idjit? Why don't you start up a 'notsoldatwalmart.com (er, wait, you're a lame Canadian - notsoldatwalmart.ca) website which sells all sorts of "censored" not-sold-at-walmart goods? Hell, if there's a big enough market for you, you could even open small stores right across the street from Walmart stores. You'd be able to sell CDs with lame covers to your heart's content to teenagers who think that having the covers in their possession makes them (the teenager) cool. Walmart won't stop you from doing it, company name aside. Niche players can easily coexist with Walmart. Whiners, it seems, cannot.

Re:wow

[scot4875]

you really don't get it.

No, *you* really don't get it. Walmart is preventing you from getting an alternate product somewhere else, because the alternate product DOES NOT EXIST. Walmart prevents the alternate product from ever appearing on any store shelves, so there's no reason to shop elsewhere, because you can't get anything different anywhere else.

The argument here is that Walmart shouldn't get to decide what the public gets to see, but they do. They're enforcing censorship through monopolistic tactics. (Walmart isn't exactly a monopoly, but they account for enough sales to bend manufacturers/publishers to their will.)

I'm not for censorship -- I'm not an idiot -- but if we had to have it, I'd *much* rather see it come from the government. I at *least* get to vote for my elected officials. I don't get any say whatsoever about who's running Walmart, and Walton's heirs aren't accountable to me in any way.

People just don't seem to realize how insidious all of this really is. Yes, it's entirely within the rules. So was what Arthur Anderson was doing with Enron. Just because it's "within the rules" doesn't make it right. Just because you don't see it happening doesn't make it okay.

I admire the amount of effort SirSlud has put into this thread. Too bad it's falling on a lot of deaf ears.

--Jeremy

Re:wow

[swillden]

Exceptional comment. This is almost exactly how movie censorship works in Sweden. If you want to show your movie on big cinemas, you have to have it approved by the censorship board. If not, you can show it anyway, for example on satellite channels. It's your choice.

What prevents someone from starting their own cinema that shows the unapproved movies?

If it's a law, then, yes this is censorship. If it's just that theatres that show unapproved movies don't get any business and fold... that's not censorship, that's public choice.

In the case of Wal-mart, there are other outlets and there always will be. The government is the only organization with the power to legally force decisions on people. Business has a lot of power to *persuade*, but that's different.

Now, in some areas there are worrisome indications that business is controlling the government and using its power to coerce people, and that's a big problem and one we have to fight.

This censorship by Wal-Mart does not fall into that category.

Re:wow

[nathanm]

The problem is that Wal-Mart is such a major distribution power. What if telecoms "made a choice" that they are no longer going allow you to transmit information of which they don't approve. I suppose that isn't censorship either. They are both private companies, and both control means of distribution.

If all the telecoms conspired to block certain information, it would be collusion, which is illegal. This is what the big 5 recording companies got slapped by the FTC for price-fixing CDs (not that the prices have changed any). Also, they do not control the means of distribution, only one mean. There are plenty of other retailers that carry products WalMart doesn't.

Once a company reaches a certain level of size and control of its given market they SHOULD lose much of their choices, because it is censorship, and it is dangerous. It is someone saying, "This you may not hear, this you may not see, this you are forbidden to know." It does not matter whether the entity is public or private. The decision whether or not to view something should rest ultimately with the consumer, and if some delicate little sensibilities are upset along the way, too bad.

So WalMart should be forced to carry everything under the sun, no matter how dangerous or objectionable? You want unlimited individual freedom, but want to force large corporations' behavior. You can't have it both ways. Freedom of choice must be protected for all. Besides, we may have the right to freedom of speech, but we don't have a right to be heard.

Grow up. People bleed, People die. Babies aren't brought by the stork, and they don't come from under cabbage leaves. Real live is rated at least NC-17, and if you don't like it, live in a bubble, but there's no reason the rest of us should sacrifice to make it easy for you.

<SARCASM>Really? Then how are babies made?</SARCASM> Like I said in my previous post: I could care less, I just won't buy the stuff. I'm not asking anyone to make any sacrifices, just let corporations have the same freedom of choice you expect yourself. And my life is rated PG (besides the bathroom & bedroom).

Re:wow

[nathanm]

I agree.

Time is certainly big enough to tell Walmart to "bugger off".

And the fact that they regularly produce localized covers in many places. They did a Minnesota only cover when Jesse Ventura was elected governor here (a day that will live in infamy, luckily he decided not to run for re-election, he would have been squashed at the polls). It was an extra cover over the top of the national cover.

Other large magazines do similar things: local advertising news or inserts depending on where you buy it or your subscription address.

Re:wow

[DunbarTheInept]

The point is that there are reasons besides the ones that were given for shopping at wallmart, when they are the only game in town. Whether that happend because the other businesses screwed up or not is irrelevant to the person who finds himself walking in to wallmart to buy his new TV. Price, selection, and convenience are irrelevant when they're the only game in town.

Re:wow

[SubtleNuance]

but they'll continue to hate success until they finally perish.

Walmart as "success" is *VERY* telling of how warped you (and those who shop at and have no issues of conscience) at walmart.

Christ, what a fucked-up, greedy selfcentered and base world you must live in.

Re:wow

[legoboy]

Yeah, that certainly was a reply worth making.

Just because you're rabidly anti-American, you don't need to hate every person, place, or thing that is American.

Only an utter moron wouldn't buy something at a Walmart if it were all of: cheaper, equivalent or better quality, and in a store at a convenient location.

90% of all retail sales in the US. Why am I even wasting my time on such a stupid troll?

Re:wow

[SubtleNuance]

Only an utter moron wouldn't buy something at a Walmart if it were all of: cheaper, equivalent or better quality, and in a store at a convenient location

I dont make my decisions based on the parameters defined by Capitalists. The fact that Walmart doesnt support local economies, exploits vendors, employees and manufacturer's workers prevents me from considering those other factors. I would go without or shop somewhere else.

only a complete fucking moron blindly accepts the role of consumer and accepts the pre-defined 'important' issues as definded by Capitalist "Economics".

A person of conscience will broaden the proposition and analyse it in total, a MORON cannot see beyond the LowLowLowPrices.

Are you willing to admit you would rather be an accomplice to WalMart's transgressions because it is more convenient and cheaper for you?

As for 90% of sales, how long will the growth for walmart's present Big-Bomb-Mega-Superstore, how long until their growth levels off and Walmart starts to buy up chains in other market segments and competitiors? I dont think you understand how big a force WalMart is, and how big they are about to become...

Re:wow

[Kintanon]

Yes, I acknowledged my choice and I'm happy with it.
And as for parents having income remember that a lot of their income is going to be tied up with medical bills, house payments, car payments, etc... Not available for them to spend on crap for their kids. Also I am more likely to have more income in general than parents studies have shown that people in higher income brackets have fewer kids, frequently none. Of course, Bill Gates has kids, so that screws the whole average.>:)

Kintanon

Re:wow

[DunbarTheInept]

The problem is that most people who shop at walmart *do* want covers to not be offensive

Well, *everyone* wants things not to be offensive - simply by the definition of what the word "offensive" means. The problem is that different people find different things offensive.

The claim I think you are trying to make is that most walmart customers agree with walmart's stance on what is and isn't offensive.

I'd like to see you back that up.

Re:wow

[DunbarTheInept]

First of all, how the hell am I supposed to back it up? Conduct a survey?

That's what I thought. You *felt* it was true without really *knowing* it is true, and made the claim based on that gut feeling.

Because most people don't want offensive (however you define the term is unimportant, you know what I mean) magazines in the stores that they shop at.

I see offensive written material in stores all the time, like the Bible - which is more corruptive than any smut magazine could ever hope to be.

Companies are in the same boat you are with regards to predicting what their customers want - they don't really know, so they guess. They guess the number of people offended by a particular magazine cover is large, so they guess that the impact of carrying it would be large, and so they decide not to carry it unless the publisher changes the cover. But it's all based on pure guesswork, and the fallacy of believing that the most vocal group must be the majority group. If something does not offend you, you aren't going to start up a grassroots campaign to publicize the fact that it isn't offensive to you. Negative comments always outnumber positive ones when it comes to customer feedback, because the people who are annoyed feel a greater need to say something than the ones that are satsified.

It's been like 3 stories on those Walmart PCs?

[Papineau]

Why so much stories on that same topic? If it's a really important topic, give it a category so I'll be able to filter them!

There's been plenty of retailers shipping PCs with Linux (or OS-less). None of the size of Walmart, I agree. But I don't know much people looking to Walmart for PCs. Neither I know people going to Walmart for a dishwasher of a freezer. A PC might have become a commodity, but there are commodities better handled by more knowledgeable businesses. And they usually have a larger selection to boot.
</RANT>

Re:It's been like 3 stories on those Walmart PCs?

[Papineau]

When I'm looking for a car, I go to a car dealer.
When I'm looking for a some furniture, I go to a furniture store.
When I'm looking for food, I go to a grocery.
When I'm looking for construction tools, I go to a hardware store.
WHen I'm looking for a PC, I go to a PC store.

If you don't know where to go shop for something, the yellow pages are your friend. AFAIK, Walmart is not listed under "Computers", but Best Buy might and there are a lot of Mom and Pop shops.

End of story.

Re:It's been like 3 stories on those Walmart PCs?

[afidel]

A PC might have become a commodity, but there are commodities better handled by more knowledgeable businesses. And they usually have a larger selection to boot.

What like Circuit City, Best Buy, and CompUSA??? Hehehehehe.

Re:It's been like 3 stories on those Walmart PCs?

[Waffle Iron]

Have you been to a Super Wal-Mart lately? You can get everything on your list there (well, maybe not the car). Why waste gas driving to all of those other stores?

YES!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not a Mandrake user (I prefer Slackware), but I know that Mandrake has an excellent desktop distro, and it's great to see a viable option being sold besides that crap called LindowsOS. I hope Mandrake squashes LindowsOS like a bug -- for the sake of Linux and the consumer.

the way walmart is

[JeanBaptiste]

Im suprised they didn't call it wal-hat or wal-drake linux...

Re:the way walmart is

[miracle69]

I've actually suggested this exact thing on the Mandrake Forum.

Mandrake could increase market share by offering other resellers a "branded" OS, while making money on the support of the machines and the O.S.

Take Mandrake 8.2 and brand it to say, WalMart.

During Boot-up, Walmart gets screen space. They get a link on the desktop to Walmart.com. And Mandrake gets 30 bucks or so to do tech support for the OS.

If the big retailers pick up on this, Linux will be poised for a several percentage point growth. Combine this with an AOL client for Linux, and this could easily propel Linux into the mainstream desktop.

But ...

[dzym]

But what about Lindows?

Mandrake is the most palatable...

[Nijika]

If I were to wish for the american public to have the first taste of one version of Linux, it'd be Mandrake. Mandrake in my opinion has always been the friendliest. Others have tried but Mandrake always managed to keep the install reasonable.

Re:Mandrake is the most palatable...

[GigsVT]

Install is irrelevant. Didn't you read the title of the story?

A braindead user can use Slackware (for example), if a competant admin has set up nice icons on a auto-loading desktop for them to click.

Re:Mandrake is the most palatable...

[Nijika]

RE-Install is always a factor. And the fact that the initial install is such a breeze says something about how usable Mandrake is.

And you're hoping for competant admins at WAL MART. I'll rely on the distribution developers to give Linux a good name to the masses, and not the Wal-Mart branch tech.

I can't understand their reasoning

[scott1853]

Why carry Windows, Lindows & Mandrake? Isn't this just overkill?

Worst yet, it's going to really confuse the people that can't afford to get confused when buying a computer because all they can afford is the cheap models. This is a disservice to their loyal customers because they'll have just bought a computer from WalMart but won't understand why they can't walk down the software isle and pick up a game for the kids. So is Wal-mart going to carry shrink wrapped Linux apps too, or are they going to blindly claim that every Windows application can run on it like they did last week?

Re:I can't understand their reasoning

[PunchMonkey]

Good point. Let's drop that Windows thing.

Re:I can't understand their reasoning

[thelexx]

"Why carry Windows, Lindows & Mandrake? Isn't this just overkill?"

As sold at least, this seems very logical to me:

Machine A - 100% Windows
Machine B - Linux w/option to run some Win stuff (they've lost points on marketing this though I know)
Machine C - 100% Linux

"Worst yet, it's going to really confuse the people that can't afford to get confused when buying a computer because all they can afford is the cheap models."

Well yes, options brings complexity. I've long felt that the entire consumer-level computer industry has played it very close to false advertising at a root level though. It's a rant for another time, but cripes, you can control a robot, your stereo, enjoy the internet, play chess, etc a computer. It's a COMPLEX device because it gives you so freaking many fundamental options. Yes, cute and limited software can be used quite easily by the unlearned, but that's not what started the revolution or the interesting part of its unfolding. Anyway...

"This is a disservice to their loyal customers because they'll have just bought a computer from WalMart but won't understand why they can't walk down the software isle and pick up a game for the kids. So is Wal-mart going to carry shrink wrapped Linux apps too, or are they going to blindly claim that every Windows application can run on it like they did last week?"

Indeed, but how many more companies will, between things like the IBM commercials and Linux being sold pre-installed on a highly visible chains shelves, see Linux as a viable market and target it? Maybe our time has finally come.

LEXX

Re:I can't understand their reasoning

[Odinson]

This was all part of Linuses nepherious plot when he said(roughly), "All I want is for people shopping for a computer to have to make a choice. To actually think about what operating system they want."

Re:I can't understand their reasoning

[Hard_Code]

"Why carry Windows, Lindows & Mandrake? Isn't this just overkill?"

Three whole choices? Well OF COURSE that's overkill! Americans can't even handle a choice of more than two political parties. Muahaha.</sardonicism>

Re:I can't understand their reasoning

[mblase]

Worst yet, it's going to really confuse the people that can't afford to get confused when buying a computer because all they can afford is the cheap models.

Yes, I agree. Far far better to offer customers no choice in the OS whatsoever, perpetuating the illusion that Windows is and always will be the only real choice for running PC software.

C'mon, is it that hard to understand? You buy a PC that tells you up-front it DOES NOT HAVE WINDOWS INSTALLED. Instead, you're getting Linux and all the free software you need to surf the net, read your email, and write your Christmas newsletters. If the customer complains that their WINDOWS software doesn't run on a NON-WINDOWS computer, then their "loyal customers" can just plunk down an extra $200 for WinXP and remember to read the package next time.

I mean, come on... when was the last time someone just walked into Wal-Mart(.com) and plunked down several hundred dollars on a computer without doing a little comparison shopping?

Re:I can't understand their reasoning

[scott1853]

Everybody is an idiot... idiot! They won't research it because they won't know where to go because they are in the market for their first computer that will allow them to get on the internet in the first place and allow them to look stuff up. And you know the WalMart sales people aren't going to be able to accurately describe it.

Re:I can't understand their reasoning

[scott1853]

There is no doubt choice is a good thing as long as the options are explained well. I understand (now) that these are going to be sold through the website.

But remember, there are a lot of people that have money to buy family members computers during the holidays. These people are ordering things online but don't always know enough to make an informed decision. So if it comes down to choosing between 2 1GHz machines with identical specs but different OSs then the cheaper one will probably be chosen. This can be especially bad when the recipient of the new machine will be an 80 year old grandmother.

My fear is that of a tech support nightmare when somebodies grandmother calls up and can't get things working on her new Wal-Mart computer. But generally speaking I could see it becoming as confusing as the different long distance options available.

Re:I can't understand their reasoning

[scott1853]

I'm not an MS advocate spewing Windows should run on every machine. Wal-Mart will not accurately descibe the differences between the computers aside from a stickers that either says "Windows" or "Linux". That's a disservice.

People can barely handle learning the basics of computer use. I have at least one person sign up at our ISP every week that has literally just unpacked their first computer and they want me to walk them through getting setup on the internet. These people have NO computer experience and don't understand what the escape key is or that the mouse has 2 buttons.

Computers are still relatively new. It's not like cars where they've been around since your grandfather was a child.

Now if Gateway was going to start selling consumer machines with Linux on them, then I would expect them to use those Gateway stores as a training ground for the new users and actually show the differences. I can't see Wal-Mart being able to do that.

Re:I can't understand their reasoning

[MAXOMENOS]

It's not like cars where they've been around since your grandfather was a child.

You don't actually know that. A fifteen or twenty year old Slashdotter could have a fourty year old mom or dad and a sixty year old granddad .. putting ol' granddad's childhood right about the dawn of the computer age.

But that's me being anal about terms; it's obvioiusly true that personal computers were not around, or in widespread use, during the childhood of anyone old enough to be the grandfather of a slashdotter. And even if they were, the user interfaces have changed a lot in the last twenty years.

Re:I can't understand their reasoning

[DunbarTheInept]

[...] in the market for their first computer that will allow them to get on the internet in the first place [...]

"Honey, let's order a computer on-line at wallmart.com so we can get on the internet in the first place."

Uh, can you spot the flaw?

(Hint: These aren't being sold in the physical Wallmart stores.)

You guys forgot...

[Sanity]

..the condescending remark about Walmart customers this time! How are we geeks supposed to maintain any self-esteem unless we can pick on someone else the way that we were picked on at high-school?

Re:You guys forgot...

[G00F]

oh don't worrie, you still can, its only mandrake and lindows here.

Passing the Savings

[Dark Paladin]

Before people think Wal-Mart is being all altruistic, think of it this way.

Wal-Mart wants to advertise they're underselling the compitition. Easiest way to do this? Sell computers without an operating system. Of course, if you do this, you sell a computer that is a) useless to Joe User (who probably doesn't know how to install an OS without help), and b) Microsoft cries piracy (I don't have the link, but one of their white papers basically says that only software pirates buy computers without operating systems.)

Now, go to Dell. Computer comes with Windows, and Microsoft Works (or Office, or whatever). You can't tell them *not* to put it on, and odds are, they have some legal ass bullshit agreement with MS that all computers must have the OS and some office suite on them (aka, the "Windows Tax").

So Wal-Mart figures they can save $100-$200 on each computer sale by putting on Mandrake and probably Open Office. Joe User gets a computer he can do email/web browsing/document editing on. Yes, it might not run all the same software as Windows - but if he wants that, he goes back to Wal-Mart and shells out another $100 (or he learns to live with it and gets a Playstation 2 instead).

Guys like me who just want cheap ass hardware without the Windows Tax get hardware. Everybody wins. Well, except for MS, but the way they've been acting with their draconian "Use software subscription or no patches for you!" additude they've been shelling at the Corporate Level, I don't feel too sorry for them.

Re:Passing the Savings

[HiThere]

Unless you assume that the machines come with manuals, I think that you can definitely assume that Mandrake is giving them the software for free. Or at least for no more than the cost of one boxed set.

That's what the GPL is about. That's how Mandrake got started. etc.

Re:Passing the Savings

[Ami Ganguli]

Hey, that's a really cool idea! Bundle a PC with Linux/OpenOffice/Mozilla with a PlayStation2. You can sell it for less than a Windows/MSOffice PC, and I think most consumers would be thrilled with the package.

I figure once you've got the basic productivity apps., the main software you purchase for your system is games. With a separate PS2 you can even surf while your kids play!

So how do we convince some major retailer to do this?

Re:Passing the Savings

[DunbarTheInept]

This is untrue. Microsoft has complained about certain manufactuers, and in many cases BIG manufactuerers, who knowingly sell "naked" (non-OS'd) machines to people for the express purpose of them pirating Windows.

Speaking of "untrue", selling a naked PC to someone so they can install the OS software they *already have* on it is not piracy, no matter what FUD from the industry you are swallow. If I want to upgrade to a newer, better machine and ditch the old old, but I'm not changing OSes, it is not piracy to re-use my existing copy of the OS. It only becomes piracy if the new and the old computer are in use at the same time, and both have the OS installed from one common copy.

I have way more copies of Windows (legally) than I do machines to put them on.

If ordering from an OEM and putting Windows on, I would prefer to put on my own store-bought copy of windows than use a broken "for OEM only" version that doesn't even come with the re-install disks and instead has some useless "system restore" disk that fails if I've upgraded any software or hardware. However, I don't want to have to pay MS for the OS twice to do this, which is what happens when I had no choice but to get the pre-installed OS with the computer.

Re:Passing the Savings

[Xtifr]

Show me a Joe Average that wants to run Linux.

I have Linux bumper-stickers and t-shirts, and I frequently have people walk up to me who want to know more about Linux. Usually they're frustrated with the instability and constant crashing of their Windows machines, and have heard (somewhere) that Linux is more stable and reliable. Generally, these tend to be small-businessmen or independent contractors (plumbers, carpenters, etc.), but I think it shows that Joe Average is at least interested in and curious about Linux, even if he's still also a little scared and cautious (probably for good reason, and I try to encourage the caution).

Re:Passing the Savings

[sheldon]

That's so weird...

I've never paid a Windows tax. Every computer I have purchased new at home has been built up from parts. Not once did they ever come with any OS.

Well ok, there was that Linksys card with the Linux CD, but I don't think that counts.

Now I have purchased Windows. I started with a copy of Windows 3.1 I got at a swap meet back in '92 for $25 and have been doing upgrades ever since. But I've always purchased the OS seperate from my hardware because i upgrade the OS once every 2-3 years, but the hardware about once every 6-9 months.

I also wouldn't buy one of these Microtel computers because I prefer quality components and what I see doesn't strike me that way.

Re:Passing the Savings

[sheldon]

http://www.qlilinux.com/

try google, it works.

Of course the problem is that you will likely pay more for the laptop without windows. But if you are fighting a moral battle, some cash has to be sacrificed!

I want my PC

[rohdem]

preloaded with DOS.
Thank you!

Re:this frightens me.(But don't let that stop you)

[Marx_Mrvelous]

Have you ever used Mandrake? The default install is very secure, if I rmember right FTP, telnet, etc are all disabled by default. Anyways, is it any worse than yet another MS computer out there to be infected by nasty e-mail viruses?

I guess beign scared by change is one thing, but I'm glad Walmart and Mandrake are attempting to bring some choice.

Wal-Mart selling IN STORES!

[|<amikaze]

Just a slight correction to the previous stories about Lindows being pre-installed on Wal-Mart PCs, people on HardForums claim to have seen the Lindows machines IN STORES>

Is it really support for linux?

[Twid]

The pessimist position here is that Wal-Mart knows full well that 99% of consumers will immediately get their smart uncle Bob to come over, reformat the hard drive, and install a version of Windows. So, the installation of Mandrake is just a ploy to make their PC's cheaper than their competition and get sales.

I'm not saying that Mandrake isn't good, or that Linux isn't fun to run. I'm just saying that the average consumer is going to be upset when they find that they can't run Microsoft Word or Quicken.

- Twid

Re:Is it really support for linux?

[laserjet]

You have a point, but won't it be funny when microsoft-centric Uncle Bob comes over to install Windows WhateverVersion.3, and doesn't get his familiar windows or DOS prompt?

after all, uncle bob may not be smart enough to bring his own boot floppy with CD driver, etc. to install (or infect, as I see it) with windows...

Dude!

[Hard_Code]

You're getting a Microtel!

Re:Dude!

[doubtless]

it's more like

Nerd!
You're getting a Microtel!

Re:Who's tried Lindows?

[macdaddy357]

I'd like to try Lindows, but you have to cough up $99 to join their insiders program, and sign a non-disclosure agreement, so I haven't. Lycoris is another distro aimed at the desktop for people who only know windows, and you can download it free. http://www.lycoris.org/

"Sam's Choice Linux!"

[Marx_Mrvelous]

Hmm, does this make Madrake Sam's Choice Linux... is is the Dr. Thunder to Red Hat?

Consumer Confusion?

[Capt_Troy]

I'm a little worried to where this is heading. If these PCs are intended for low budget novice consumers...

A> They might be confused about Lindows (while not infringing on MSs Trademark, it is definitely misleading). How many novice users are going to buy a PC that they think will run all the screensavers and games that a Windows PC will?

B> Giving novice users a choice between Mandrake and Lindows seems strange to me. How will most novice users be able to choose the most appropriate? I think we might just confuse them out of buying a computer, or they will probably choose the Lindows box just because the name sounds familiar.

C> As far as I know Walmart sells Windows PC software (maybe Mac??). Won't user's assume that since they buy their computer from Walmart, that the software they buy from Walmart will work on their computer? Is Walmart planning on selling Linux software somehow as well?

I like the Mandrake thing, but I am a little worried that the inclusion of Lindows will be confusing to the non-technical user who is most likely to buy these boxen. The name of the distro implies that it is analogous to Windows. As far as I have read, it is not. This will only serve to make the general public hate linux because they can't run "regular" software on it.

Troy

Re:Consumer Confusion?

[GigsVT]

I'm a little worried to where this is heading. If these MS-DOS computers are intended for low budget novice consumers...

How many novice users are going to buy a PC that they think will run all the programs that a CP/M system will?

Giving novice users a choice between MS-DOS and PC-DOS seems strange to me. How will most novice users be able to choose the most appropriate? I think we might just confuse them out of buying a computer, or they will probably choose the MS-DOS box just because the name sounds familiar.

Re:Consumer Confusion?

[surfimp]

Could it be that consumers shopping Walmart.com, where these machines are being offered, are not as dumb as most /. respondents seem intent on making them out to be?

Remember, the systems are being offered as "fantastic low-cost alternatives to models that are preloaded with Windows". There's nothing ambiguous about that statement; these machines DO NOT COME with Windows, and thus WILL NOT RUN Windows applications.

In fact, what I think Walmart is really trying to do here is not necessarily directed at the home user market. I suspect that many of these systems are being sold to technologically-savvy small businesses, the same sorts of people who might go to Fry's to purchase some low-cost computer equipment to help meet a need in their office. At $300, these things are a steal. Whether or not they end up with pirated versions of XP on them is not something that I think Walmart is concerned about, but by selling them with Linux preloaded they can escape from the "aiding and abetting piracy" whines that Microsoft was laying on them when they were selling these machines with no preloaded OS.

However, the fact that Walmart is selling PCs with Linux preloaded is a huge opportunity for Linux to make inroads with all sectors of consumers, and I'm glad to see that Mandrake is proactively pursuing this by agreeing to provide their distro for these machines.

If you consider that these systems are going to be offered with Mandrake preloaded, and then take note that you can download Evolution and OpenOffice (assuming they aren't preloaded), then you're talking about a system that is pretty much there as far as Windows-land compatibility goes, from a home-user and small business perspective.

It's up to Mandrake, Lindows, and Walmart to see to it that their users' experience with this software is all that it can be. And I'd also like to forward the notion that anyone who's genuinely interested in seeing Linux gain desktop marketshare consider helping out some of these Walmartian newbies when they invariably start showing up to the message boards and newsgroups. After all, that's what the spirit of the OSS movement is all about, right?

Re:Consumer Confusion?

[Capt_Troy]

So you think that Mandrake will be forced out of existance by Lindows!!! This IS worse than I initially thought!!!

:)

Re:Consumer Confusion?

[Capt_Troy]

Thats a good point, this should be modded up.

Much better than Lindows

[colmore]

This is good to hear. Lindows is a beta product, and acts like it, Mandrake is as competitive as entry level desktop Linux gets these days.

I hope someone will write a *really* good users manual, one that involves the words "terminal" "compile" and "man" as little as possible.

Wal-Mart Shopping List

[rirugrat]

Hmmm...let's see...

Powerbait Rubber Worms (check)
Sam's Pork Rinds (check)
Nascar Queen-size bed sheets (check)
George Foreman Lean Mean Grilling Machine (check)
Unix box (check)

Chris

Re:Wal-Mart Shopping List

[cjpez]

George Foreman Lean Mean Grilling Machine (check)

Hey, those are actually pretty cool. I got one as a present and laughed at it for a bit, but as it turns out, we use it all the time. Seriously, we end up cooking practically everything on it. It's awesome. :P

Yeah, yeah, I know, (-1, Offtopic) :)

Re:Wal-Mart Shopping List

[MAXOMENOS]

Now that you mention it, it is kinda cool that a "cheap" UNIX box has seen a ten fold drop in price, a ten fold increase in processor speed, a thousand fold increase in storage, a twenty fold increase in memory, and a huge leap in user friendliness, since I went looking for one back in 1991.

Plus I can get one at Wal-Mart. Wow.

Re:Wal-Mart Shopping List

[MAXOMENOS]

Excuse me .. I should have said, a 90% drop in price. My mistake.

Did Bill Gates piss Sam Walton off?

[elsegundo]

I'm just curious why Wal-Mart all of the sudden has this affinity to sell computers without MS OSes or competing OSes....

Re:Did Bill Gates piss Sam Walton off?

[The Ape With No Name]

Sam Walton is long dead. But if anyone could piss off the dead, it'd be Microsoft.

I wonder what would happen....

[Fizzlewhiff]

If Walmart struck a deal with AOL to develop a Lindows friendly version of AOL (or a Linux version) and preinstall it on their machines. The cheapest Walmart.com PC is $299. With those prepaid subscription rebates Walmart and AOL could give these machines away.

Re:I wonder what would happen....

[hendridm]

apt-get install aol7

Mmmmmm... I picture an explosion of cheap PCs from other manufacturers running Lindows or Linux.

Re:I wonder what would happen....

[Kiaser Zohsay]

Wal Mart's already on it

http://www.walmart.com/walmartconnect/isp/

Can you say "Sam's American On-Line Choice"?

Re:I wonder what would happen....

[hendridm]

> Close, but it would be urpmi for the Mandrake installs.

First of all, I was trying to be symbolic. Second, I thought Lindows was based on Debian?

Re:Wait

[eaddict]

And PriceWaterhouseCoopers isn't evil on Mondays!

what will be truly interesting

[paradesign]

is whether Lindows OS or Mandrake will sell better. It will show which OS is more appealing to the non-geek (i use that term lovingly) consumer.

The only way this will succeed...

[bigfatlamer]

Is if they also pre-configure them with StarOffice or OpenOffice, with all the icons changed to look like MS Office XP icons, install Opera as the default browser, change the icons as above and set it up to mimic IE, install GIMP and change it as above to look like MS Paint, port Real Player and WMP to Linux and then somehow set it up so it crashes more often.

Re:The only way this will succeed...

[miguelitof]

Is if they also pre-configure them

You are assuming that Wal-Mart is aiming these PCs at novices, which I don't agree with. I think Wal-Mart is aiming for geeks who want cheap hardware. But I'll go with your assumption to answer the rest of your comment...

with StarOffice or OpenOffice, with all the icons changed to look like MS Office XP icons,

You think that novice users/new computer owners are going to know the Office XP icons? I've talked with users here at work (I work on a help desk) that have been using Windows and Office for years and still can't remember which icon launches which office app.

As long as the icon is labelled, users won't care what it looks like.

install Opera as the default browser, change the icons as above and set it up to mimic IE,

See above. For a novice user, it'd be better to make the icon look like AOL's icon instead of IE. But the best thing to do is to make sure the icon, no matter what it LOOKS like, is labelled "Internet".

install GIMP and change it as above to look like MS Paint,

Novice users are not going to expect a paint program to come with their computer. And The Gimp is not equivalent to MS Paint, anyway, it's more of a Paint Shop Pro/Photoshop application.

port Real Player and WMP to Linux and then somehow set it up so it crashes more often.

There's a native version of Real Player for Linux; Mandrake includes it with their distro. There's no solution for WMP, of course. For everything that you mentioned in your comment, WMP is the only valid point. Lack of WMP support just may be a problem on these computers. But it won't be a big one.

Re:The only way this will succeed...

[JabberWokky]

There's no solution for WMP, of course. For everything that you mentioned in your comment, WMP is the only valid point. Lack of WMP support just may be a problem on these computers. But it won't be a big one.

Look into mplayer. It plays just about everything: WMV files, DVDs, DivXs, and of course, all your MPGs, AVIs, VIVO files, etc. Excellent support for acceleration, video capture and other hardware features. It is very stable, and does full screen beautifully. There are several GUI interfaces for it now - probably it's major weakeness, as since there is no "standard one", there's not a single really strong one with semi standard interfaces. Work is being done on interfacing it to aRts, so any KDE player interface can control it, though.

--
Evan

Re:The only way this will succeed...

[JabberWokky]

The .dll directory has been dwindling as the various codecs have become open source. I was running for quite a long time on a new system before I hit a file that needed one of the w32 files to play. A year ago, even DivX needed a dll - now it's got native and fully open sourced support.

I'm one of those that thinks the "make it work now, and then make it work right" philosophy seems to be the best, most practical and sucessful method. KDE was based on Qt, which is now fully GPL, mplayer works right now, and is being converted to require no binary codecs... make it work, then make it work right.

--
Evan

Re:The only way this will succeed...

[JabberWokky]

I suspect that selling them (hell, even using them as I could) might be a trifle illegal in certain jurisdictions.

The whole legality of DivX ;-) is questionable - it didn't stop that from becoming arguably the most sucessful of the recent crop of codecs. It was not distributed with Windows or with Windows Media Player, and yet it took off like wildfire.

MPlayer is distributing the DLLs right off their site, right on the same page with the player. At the very least, you could have a "fetchmsttfonts" style script - in SuSE, that goes to MS's site, downloads Verdana, Times New Roman, MS Comic Sans, etc. and displays the EULA, which you can agree to, and installs them all on your system. They can't be distributed with the OS, but they can be installed.

--
Evan

Re:The only way this will succeed...

[Salsaman]

WMP is supported fine by the Crossover plugin. If it were really such a big issue, maybe Wal-Mart could work out a deal with Codewavers and get a volume discount.

Personally I'd rather see WMP with its built in DRM and Microsoft's "let us pay your bandwidth costs" bait and switch, disappear altogether.

Re:this frightens me.

[LinuxGeek8]

I am already frightened by Mandrake. I believe it is a poor choice for Linux users. Linux has not yet become "dummy" enough for the vast majority of users and Mandrake makes it too easy to use and create problems for people.

I'm using Linux now for three years, but I think the "dummy" tools are excellent.
For example; in the beginning I used lpr, ghostscript and apsfilter for printing.
Nowadays almost every distro uses Cups, which had horrible docs a year ago. And I didn't understand one thing of it. There were a few frontends like the webbased interface, but it just didn't want to work with my Epson inkjet.
There comes Mandrake with Cups and printerdrake. Just turn on your printer while installing, or while running printerdrake, and it gives you a recommended driver setup.
No problem with cups since then.

This is just one example, but the Mandrake stuff is quite good imo.

Invididuals that buy this package are going to be open to plenty of exploits, problems, etc. It is going to create a large headache for the rest of us.

Mandrake in Walmart may frighten you, but comments like these frighten me.
What exploits do you mean?
Every piece of software has exploits. After a while there will be known exploits. As long as you install the updates it all should be fine.
Now the question is how many people will actually use the updates, but that's the same story on every OS, especially Microsofts OS's.

I just hope that Mandrake realizes this and moves to at least limit the possiblity of widespread issues that MS has due to the same reasons.

I agree with you here.
I just hope it will have no services installed, and the services that are installed, are only listening on the localhost interface.

Re:this frightens me.(But don't let that stop you)

[Marx_Mrvelous]

Ah.. I see...
I'm prety sure there are automatic update agents for Mandrake, but I'll have to check on that. I know there are update *programs* out there, but whether or not the users use them (just like Windows Update)

I only have a few questions you should ponder

[FortKnox]

When the customer buys the PC and goes to the computer software section and picks up MS Word for their kids, cause they need to type up papers (or games to play, etc...), and it doesn't install on their new shiny boxes, what are they going to think?

When they want to get online, and put in the AOL CD they got in the mail, and nothing happens, what are their impression of Linux?

Software is what makes windows big. Its how they stomped Mac. Is your average Wal-Mart shopper going to be able to know to pick up linux software, and will they be able to install it by themselves?

I'm not going anti-linux, pro-ms, I'm just getting you people to think before patting yourselves on the back.

Re:I only have a few questions you should ponder

[billh]

Many people here are too young to remember the earlier days of personal computing. When a Commodore 64 with a tape drive was considered a luxury item. With Apple, Atari, Commodore, IBM, and others competing for the same (relatively) small market share, there were many options for those that wanted to buy a computer.

When I would walk to the local book store to look at the software (on a shelf with a box of floppy disks that cost more than some CPUs cost now), I would see different sections, with signs like Apple or Commodore or IBM. Most of them had the same games available, too.

Asking my mother for a new game for my birthday didn't involve going with her to the store, writing it down, or ending up with an Atari game for my C64. Without ever touching the computer, she knew it was a Commodore 64, just like I knew that my dad drove a GM station wagon, even though I wasn't allowed to drive it.

Every kid I knew with a computer was able to get the correct kind of software. The small computer lab that we somehow ended up with at my elementary school ended up with the correct software. I never even remember hearing of anyone that had any confusion about the type of computer they were using.

Now, some might say that computers are a commodity item, a mass market item, something that every home needs in the same room as the TV. I have no problem with that. I think it is great, as it will drive down prices for all of us. Let the masses have their Microtel computers.

But when they try to install Windows software on their shiny new computers, we should laugh at them. The same way that 'hillbillies', as people have called them, would laugh at you if you put the wrong fuel mixture in your chainsaw. Read and learn, or be a fool. There is no excuse for ignorance, and it doesn't take much brainwork to figure out what kind of operating system you are running. Read the fucking manual.

Re:I only have a few questions you should ponder

[Capt_Troy]

Sure anyone reading this post is smart enough to do as you say. But Ma Smith isn't going to read the manual, she will try to install AOL and it won't work. She will then proclaim that these Wal-Mart computers suck as will all of those like her. In this way, Linux could get a bad reputation among the general public, which is a bad thing.

Then to compound the problem, you will arrive on scene with your "Got Root?" T shirt and call her a F@#king idiot and the community will get an even worse reputation.

There is no excuse for ignorance, but it is also ignorant to expect everyone to do as you would.

Re:I only have a few questions you should ponder

[FortKnox]

But when they try to install Windows software on their shiny new computers, we should laugh at them. The same way that 'hillbillies', as people have called them, would laugh at you if you put the wrong fuel mixture in your chainsaw. Read and learn, or be a fool. There is no excuse for ignorance, and it doesn't take much brainwork to figure out what kind of operating system you are running. Read the fucking manual.

Before I say anything, I must tell you, that if this is a troll it was well written.

Instead of writing a whole schpeel about how your "eye for an eye" attitude is pointless and silly, and how you think that the best way is to even, instead of giving linux a good reputation, I'll simply say:
Your elitest attitude is why linux will never be the major operating system.

Helping the users is what we need, but it sounds like you're the type of person that doesn't want them using it in the first place. Gotta be better than them some how, eh?

Re:I only have a few questions you should ponder

[billh]

Ma Smith would laugh at me if I didn't use boiling water when I canned my tomatoes, mixed bleach and vinegar when cleaning, or forgot to water my garden and wondered why the plants died.

It takes some knowledge to be able to function in society. If you had never seen a TV, would you know what to do with it? Would you know to plug it in? If you did, how would you get any pictures on it? Most televisions don't come with antennas these days.

My digital camera takes AA batteries, and my 35mm camera takes a special lithium battery. My cell phone has a special battery, and my car takes a battery that doesn't look like any of the others. So if I go to the store and buy a battery, I need to know what kind.

Why are computers any different? If you don't bother to take the time to learn what to do with them, you have wasted your money.

Re:I only have a few questions you should ponder

[billh]

Actually, I don't troll on here, although some think I do from time to time. I promote Linux, it is prevelant on my resume, my side business uses Linux, etc. If I was any good at real programming, I would contribute. As it is, I help people I know with it, as well as helping them with Windows.

I just do not believe that people should assume all computers are Windows (or all Linux is Red Hat, for that matter). Doing so shows ignorance, and is fine if you don't have a computer, or are happy with Windows. But when you shell out $300, or $2000, or any amount of money for a consumer electronics device, you should have some idea what it is, and have nobody but yourself to blame if you don't.

VHS & Beta. LP & CD. 8 Track & Cassette. DVD-R/DVD-RAM/DVD-Whatever. Gas & Diesel. AA & AAA. 1/2" jack & 1/4" jack. Ethernet & Modem (if you've done end user support, you've seen that). All different standards, yet people seem to sort them out somehow. Except for that last one.

Re:I only have a few questions you should ponder

[Capt_Troy]

Or she might be nice enough to help you learn what you were doing wrong instead of berating you as you would do to her.

Re:Wait

[laserjet]

On slasdot, Microsoft is not evil on the second tuesday after hell freezes over. Didn't you get the memo?

Re:this frightens me.

[capt.Hij]

The article says:
Walmart.com has a few well-placed electronics buyers who are savvy to Linux, and a management team looking for ways to reinvigorate stagnant computer sales numbers. The combination has resulted in innovations like the Windows-free Microtel line and has generated strong sales and low return numbers...

Contrary to what was posted in the last slashdot story about this, Walmart is not selling these machines to unsuspecting rubes who are still trying to figure out how the door to their mobile home works. It sounds like Walmart knows their customers which is exactly why they are able to reach a large portion of the American public. A large number of the good folk here at slashdot seems to equate this with ignorant masses but that is not the case.

I live in a small town and have seen what Walmart can do to a community. I don't like Walmart but I certainly am not going to underestimate it. This appears to be a very shrewd move by a company which is the master of its domain.

MANDRAKE IS THE BEST BECAUSE FRENCH ARE THE BEST !

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi !

Thank you, stupid American.

You consider Mandrake like the Best distro of the world, and you are right !

As I said before, French is the smartest people of the World, and as Mandrake is French, Mandrake is the Best !

SuSE, distro of German, poor Quality, totalitarism, Nazism --> Burn it !
Redhat, Lindows, Windows : American , so like Americans are stupid, these products are not good !

thank you American, and please repeat after me :

NOUS SOMMES LES MEILLEURS, NOUS SOMMES LES CHAMPIONS, ON VA BOTTER LE CUL DES AMERICAINS !

Walmat is unknowingly doing the THE RIGHT THING

[puto]

The Walmart marketing staff undoublty saw the huge Linux user base and are marketing to it. But the reality is we all like to build our boxes are convert an old one when we build the 'master of all boxen(every 4 months). So at least their choice generates much talk on /. Well the good thing is this: When a lower income person has an intelligent child and they wish to purchase the system, they can get one with Linux. The box will have sortsa games and goodies for them to play with. They will be intrigued, and since mom cant fork out for new games (and the lack of games in linux) they will start writing their own, learn gimp, learn the OS in and out) And they will be kept out of the windows world because they will not be able to run burned games from their friends. All of my frinds who are coders I respect started in this manner. They had a Vic 20, C-64, TRS 80, something low end instead of an Apple // which had tons of wares and did everything for you. If you look at your friends(I mean people who are now in their 30's, people who remember the real Wolfenstein, not the PC 3d crap) you will find this true. I see this could lead to a new generation of great coders and admins cuz they were not polluted with other OS's from the get go. When you don't got much, you make what you got do wonders. Puto

WOW!!!

[tadd]

This rules!!! When did Wal-Mart become so cool. Now that they've put so many Mom&Pops out of business I guess they've got bigger fish to fry... like Micro$oft!!!!

Go Mandrake!

[Cally]

Been using Mandrake 8.2 for dev work for the last few months and I'm *very* impressed. Most of the traditional Linux pain has gone: stuff 'just works'. Like the IBM geezer said earlier, I can configure XFree86, I'd just much rather not have to bother...

Re:Wait

[colmore]

sweatshops are a tricky issue.

it's not like when say, a company is dumping toxic waste so you stop buying their products in hopes that they'll maybe go out of business or have to shut down polluting factories.

the problem with sweatshops is that, the locals in those countries are so poor they *choose* to work in sweatshops (or send their kids) and if walmart shut down the shops then they would just be poorer. now walmart could voluntarily elect to pay their workers more, but in a free market, that's not likely to happen. what really needs to occur is for the economy of china to improve. if the workers there had more and better options, walmart et. al. would HAVE to pay more. boycotting a store because of sweatshops doesn't really work.

now how joe consumer goes about improving china's economy, i'm not sure, but boycotting walmart isn't going to help the people it employs, no matter how mistreated they are.

Yes it is...becuase of basic statistics

[mekkab]

Its all about percentages.

I think a fair number of Joe Everybody's will most likely pirate a copy of Windows XP or whatever.

but the question is What is the mean time between plugging in the box when you first get it and installing a Windows OS?
That initial exposure is what's most important.
Also if there is a "kid" in the house (becuase kids don't shell out the money, thus they have no "value" associated with the computer, thus they are more likely to mess-around with it) that kid may be the one installing Windows but he may like linux and the box could be set up to dual-boot.

Give enough people general exposure to linux, and it transforms from "something that them there hakkers use", to "something that worked pretty well, and didn't crash nearly as much as..."

Now maybe those people are in a position to buy some computers for there small company, and maybe now that they've had a favorable experience with linux they decide to save their business a lot of money by becoming a linux shop...

Now that the name is out there, give the people a favorable experience with it and a cute mascot. Tux could be the next mickey mouse!

Re:Yes it is...becuase of basic statistics

[mekkab]

Oh, you know for a fact that the kid got the info on how to do JUST that from a website...
infact a site written SOLELY to explain how to dual boot that specific walmart box!

Re:this frightens me.(But don't let that stop you)

[MAXOMENOS]

A Mandrake user who installs Ximian GNOME on their computer can upgrade their machine automatically using Red Carpet. I'm 90% sure that this includes necessary Mandrake upgrades.

Will they sell preloaded Mandrake with The Sims?

[WillSeattle]

One stop shopping - go to Walmart, buy PC with Linux and The Sims preloaded, go home, plug in, have fun.

Sweet!

Re:this frightens me.

[Christianfreak]

By that logic then most people shouldn't even own a computer. Its this kind of uppity "I'm smarter than the average user" that keeps Linux off the desktop.

Linux has not yet become "dummy" enough for the vast majority of users and Mandrake makes it too easy to use

What??? This is a contridiction! You can't have it both ways. Either its easy enough for Joe User or its not. And how can something be too easy to use? I find the command line easier to get around in than Window's (or Mandrake's for that matter) pretty little GUI but that's my opinion.

It sounds like you want to have educated users before you bring Linux to the desktop, but the users aren't going to be educated until they have a choice to use it.

Holy fucking crap, it's what I've always wanted.

[benploni]

A Mandrake preload on a cheap (damn near disposable) pc? I'm in heaven!

This is VERY good news.

Red Hat

[wackysootroom]

My question is, why hasn't Red Hat jumped all over this? It's risky, but if it pays off, people will be demanding that software companies create games and office suites for our Linux.

Red Hat has a good thing going, but couldn't it get better? Will this push Mandrake ahead of RedHat in terms of popularity?

Only time will tell.

do we now have to say

[Anonymous Coward]

GNU/Wal-Mart?

Re:Wait

[mikeee]

now how joe consumer goes about improving china's economy

I'm thinking 'Buy Chinese Stuff'. Eventually, they'll get less poor, and even the sweatshop owners'll have to pay a half-decent wage.

In the long run. But then, as one famous economist said, "Sure, it all works out in the long run... but in the long run we'll all be dead!"

'Shovelware' of GPL software?

[DivideByZero]

So, who's going to be the first company to make up CD's full of click-to-install games and applications for Mandrake, to be hung on a peg next to the $300 computer at $15/ea?

Seriously - Why not?

And I think Joe Consumer will be willing to put up with the diffrence between OpenOffice and MSOffice for the $x00 dollars price diffrence. Hell, they're shopping at Wal*Mart, for crying out loud - You KNOW they're looking for a bargain!

The way things are going...

[resonator]

...they'll replace the traditional Walmart smiley face with a smiley tux =)

Re:Wait

[colmore]

yeah but buying things that only pay the workers (less than) subsistance wages won't really improve much. the trick is to locate big-ticket items that actually get money in the hands of working chinese and buy those over american things. of course, i'm a big fan of american manufacturing too, so as always, knowing all sides of an issue leaves me paralyzed with responsibility.

A possible /. interview?

[sielwolf]

Ok we have seen a pretty consistent stream of articles about how Walmart/walmart.com have taken a decided interest in pushing non-MS OS machines (be they Linux based or clean).

But the 10k question is: who is behind this? I mean, this isn't like some normal free or open software guru we've known for ten years. Somebody at Walmart must be putting their John Hanncock on this.

Personally I'd like to get to know a little more about them (to congratulate them at least). Even more so I'd like a little more insight in to what got them started on this and how it all went down.

Short take of this Post: I wanna /. Interview! I'm sure it would go over huge.

To me this seems to be one of the first mainstream (outside of the IT industry and for endusers) acceptances of things most geeks hold dear. Who wants to miss this part of history?

Re:A possible /. interview?

[nolife]

I view this differently. The department store operation and computer selling in general is cut throat. Walmart needed a way to stand above the crowd and sell PC's for less then the competition. Walmart and Microtel got together and started offering cheap PC's with no OS at all. To 99.99% of computer users that planned to stay legal, the PC was useless, remember the first versions had a Winmodem so in theory, Linux was out also. Microtel switched modems and shortly there after started shipping with Lindows. Both Walmart and Microtel come out looking better because Walmart is getting more for there money and Microtel added very little cost to their bottom line. Now the same is happening with Mandrake. Mircotel ships a more stable full operation system with the PC's (no disto jokes, just making a point here). Again both companies gain. Walmart could probably care less what the hell the machine runs, as long as they are not paying any more for it, after all, they initally were happy selling it with nothing on it. I think Microtel's and more so Walmart's involvement in choosing Linux is next to null.

"hello, wal-mart techinal helpdesk...

[Anonymous Coward]

... I'd like to report a problem with my computer. I've been running it for several days straight and I just had to ask; Why hasn't it crashed yet? My last one did."

WalMart drives IT standards

[fetta]

If WalMart starts using Linux desktops for their own business, that will have a much bigger impact. For example, if WalMart were to tell all of its vendors and suppliers that they have to submit their documents using open file formats instead of MS proprietary formats, that would create a ripple effect across corporate America.

Technology review had an interesting article on this very topic a few months ago.

The reason is simple. Wal-Mart is by far the commercial world's most influential purchaser and implementer of software and systems. It is the 800-pound gorilla in a retail jungle of bonobos and howler monkeys. Microsoft and Cisco may set technical standards; Wal-Mart sets business process standards. When Wal-Mart--which is bigger than Sears, Kmart and J. C. Penney combined--wants global suppliers like Procter and Gamble or GE or Pfizer to comply with its inventory software and data networks, they do so or else. "Everyday low prices" don't come cheap.

*-snip-*

This power of procurement facilitates the procurement of power. Suppose Wal-Mart decided that it would be economically advantaged by abandoning proprietary software formats in favor of "open source" to manage its supplier interactions. Imagine the ripple--or rather, tsunami--effect on the future of systems design and development in the retail, wholesale and consumer goods sectors. What happens to a Microsoft or Oracle in that environment?


Hopefully, selling Linux PCs is just the first step. When WalMart starts using Linux-based PCs internally, then the game will really change.

Moral quandary...

[binarytoaster]

Wal-Mart... but... Linux PCs... but... Wal-Mart... but... Linux PCs....

AAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHH

No, This Is A Bad Thing

[hotsauce]

In a world where it is a struggle to get the average user to use Mac OS because they are so used to Windows and confused by the smallest differences in user experience, I think pitching Linux to the average user is a Bad Thing. The average user will try it and hate it for eternity.

Remember the Newton? It became a killer PDA, but it could never live down the first rev's handwriting recognition reputation.

Until Linux has a polished user experience (user interface and hardware/software compatibility) this should not be attempted. I know someone who got an iBook, got a scanner without checking compatibility, and then found there wasn't an OS X driver really hated it.

still cheap plastic crap

[stego]

its just cheap plastic crap with an alt operating system...

Hardware Specs for $299 Unit

[Milican]

I e-mailed Microtel Computer Systems and asked them what their hardware specs were for their SYSMAR701 PC With 850 MHz Duron. I got a response back on 6/17/2002. Anyway, the motherboard for the $299 PC is the MSI MS-6378X-L (MS-6378 V.3) [msicomputer.com]. A quick rundown of major specs is shown below:

• 200/266MHz FSB, Supports AMD Duron/Athlon/Athlon XP up to 2000+
  
• Ultra DMA 66/100, 2 PC100/133 DIMM Sockets up to 1GB
  
• Integrated Trident Blade3D AGP Graphics Engine shared memory up to 8MB
  
• Micro-ATX Form Factor, 3 PCI, 1 CNR, AC 97, 2 USB, AGP 2x
  
• ADMTek AN983B 10/100 BaseT Ethernet
  

Also, I should note the motherboard used changes based on model. Not bad for a $299 PC with Linux!

JOhn

P.S. Big thanks to Rich at Microtel for the quick repsonse :)

Re:Hardware Specs for $299 Unit

[MsGeek]

Anyway, the motherboard for the $299 PC is the MSI MS-6378X-L (MS-6378 V.3)

That's no slug of a motherboard. I was expecting PC Chips crap, like EliteGroup or Amptron, but MicroStar International is not a company that makes crappy motherboards.

I've had one exemplary experience in dealing with MSI. I was putting together a machine with an ancient 486 motherboard. It was a weird bugger too...it had PCI SLOTS and none of the VESA Local Bus slots you expect on a 486. Anyway, I needed the jumper diagrams and the support area of the web site had nothing.

What did those nice folks at MSI do for me? They scanned the whole Fine Manual for me to a series of .JPGs, then they emailed the .JPGs to me. I had my jumper settings, they had a happy customer.

These machines are BARGAINS, folks. And to have them preloaded with a DECENT Linux distro is a Very Good Thing (tm) indeed. Yeah, Wally-Mart is an evil place. But so are most of the other big discount store chains. And often, what Wally-Mart does, more palatable establishments like Target will follow.

Ha ha, Bill Gates! Just watch as the floodgates open, and there's a cascade of bargain PCs with Linux pre-installed rushing out over the country!! Did I hear a "Glub, glub" somewhere near Redmond, WA?

PS: who makes their hard drives?

Too bad it can't have a legal DVD movie player...

[CodeShark]

...pre-installed, because of the damned DMCA.

Otherwise all of these Walmart/Mandrake PC's can be classified as illegal devices designed to circumvent digital copyright mechanisms, which IIRC is a felony crime in the US now, right?

Of course, most tech-savvy users will simply go out on the non-US net to get and compile a deCSS's codec onto their machines. Unless I missed something along the way in terms of a licensed DVD codec for Linux.

The Windows tax

[ProfDumb]

danheskett says:

"So Wal-Mart figures they can save $100-$200 on each computer sale by putting on Mandrake and probably Open Office" Thats a complete and utter load of bull crap. $200? Hardly. Hardly. Hardly. Assuming that Mandrake is giving them the OS for free (and I dont know that we can do that, but lets go with it anyways), they'd probably be saving between $40 and $80 a unit . . . YOU'VE ALWAYS BEEN ABLE TO GET CHEAP HARDWARE. why this whole crap about the "Windows Tax". Its a lie, a myth!

Wow, you are a little worked up, huh?

You imply that a $40-$80 dollars savings is approximately nothing, but at this price level that is hardly true, it is 10-20% of the cost of the whole bundle. Walmart won't do this if Windows was close enough to free so as not to matter.

Also, while you, Mr. Sophisticated Computer Guy, may have known how to buy a bare computer, the average Joe hasn't and having these computers at WalMart is a way (perhaps the first way) for Mr. Joe to avoid the cost of MS software (i.e. the colorfully named "Windows Tax").

Re:Walmart and censorship

[SirSlud]

> And how do you intend to enforce a "right to be free of undue pressures to self-censor"?

Thats pretty easy. Make sure nobody can get super big. I think that the concept of economy of scale has costs that are both social and cultural. Yes, many people will laugh at me for worrying about social and cultural consequences of fostering pure economic goals. I dont care anymore, because it seems to me that the advertised ultimate goal of free-market capialism is to help people attain wealth in order to foster cultural and social health, safety, etc in addition to spurring technological development. (Although, with technology, whats the point of keeping people alive and physically safe if the social and cultural things one requires in order to enjoy life are sacrificed to attain it? I'm not anti-technology, but I think people lose sight of what the purpose of it is .. )

It just seems silly to me to encourage attaining massive amounts of wealth and economic leverage if it has negative consequences on the advertised goal of the system in the first place. And just because you or I dont want to see those covers doesn't mean that it doesnt make a lick of difference to me that my neighbour, who would like them, cant. My potentially laughable form of altruism is simply a way of paying my interests and values forward .. I dont want this to go furthur to the point where I feel my ability to enjoy and access to my culture is being opressed.

Support?

[Fencepost]

I doubt that they're getting the software for free - Walmart.com probably has some sort of agreement with Mandrake to provide one or two support calls for these systems, which is one of the things you get with the boxed sets as well.

Re:without MS all PCs should cost a lot less

[boopus]

You can call Bill Gates unethical, but I think you'll have a hard time backing up your claim that he's an idiot, seeing as he runs and created one of the most comercially sucessfull companys out there. All you're doing is "Spreading FUD" about Microsoft... Microsoft is in the business of making money - as a public company, they HAVE to have the goal of creating value for their shareholders.

Wal-Mart, Microsoft, and the Global Economy

[Badgerman]

Forgive me if this diverges a bit here and there.

Wal-Mart is offering cheap machines for basic users with a reliable OS. It's a good alternative to windows for many people, and Wal-Mart makes a nice bit of money.

In this economy (worldwide and American), things are a bit tighter, people want more bang for their buck. Wal-Mart is filling that need.

This is interesting news for Microsoft. I have to wonder how much of M$'s sales were due to economic exhuberance and people feeling any computer problem can be solved by throwing money at a big name.

I wonder if the economic downturn in America and the slow global economy are actually Microsoft's greatest enemies? Sure, it's great to blow gods-know-how-much money on some flashy M$ product when everyone wanted a familiar face. It's something quite different when the bottom line looms in people's visions.

Re:Lindows and Mandrake?

[karmawarrior]

Exactly. What Wal*Mart needs to do is just sell one PC. It can be a Dell Laptop, with 256M of RAM and a 15G HD, and a Celeron.

That'll keep the punters coming in. One PC, nice and simple. No choices that might "confuse" someone, like differing amounts of memory or disk space or processors. Sure, there may be no configuration that's actually appropriate for >30% of users, but, in the cause of making things user friendly, should that matter?

Likewise, what's the deal with all the different model cars out there? Ford sells both SUVs AND Minivans AND boat-cars and normal cars. And, get this, some of them are available in diesel and gasoline versions, not to mention totally confusing potential consumers with "automatic" vs "manual" transmissions, and, unbelievably, different colors.

Ford would get more customers if it stuck with just the one model, say, a boat car with a 5L engine and an automatic transmission. Blue. Yep, blue would be good. That way, when a customer walks into a Ford dealer, they wouldn't be confused by a dazzling array of choices when all they want is a way to drive from A to B. They could just nip in, point at the Crown Vic they want, pay the money and leave.

And restaurants. Geez, is there anything worse than looking at some multipage menu with choices galore? What's wrong with a burger? A good, old fashioned, American burger. With cheese. Everyone likes cheese on their burgers. It's damned unamerican not to want cheese. I've been in restaurants and I've walked out, yes, walked out, because they expect me to spend hours and hours wading through some list of "choices" when all I want is something to eat. Burgers are userfriendly, efficient to make, and they feed just about anybody. Everyone knows what they are. The Outback Steakhouse needs to throw away their current huge three or four page "menus" and stick to burgers, a simple single design everyone can understand: A sesame seed bun, a 1/4lb beef burger, a sheet of American cheese, a simple lettuce leaf, a slice of tomato, a slice of pickle, and some ketchup and mayo. If anyone wants something other than that, surely they know enough about food to build their own damned burgers.

That's the problem with America today. Too many choices. When my grandmother can go into a fancy restaurant and understand the menu, that's when America will be ready for the desktop.

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Re:That is not what the GPL is about.

[HiThere]

The GPL says that if you buy a copy of the software, you can do what you want with it, as long as you keep it under the GPL. (So if WalMart distributes the binaries, they need to make the source available.)

If WalMart bought *1* boxed set, then that's all they'd need to do. Now service, manuals, etc., that's something totally different.

Re:Walmart and censorship

[karmawarrior]

Does the fact that it's wrong for the government to force Wal*Mart to stop controlling the content what it sells mean that Wal*Mart is right to control that content? Does it mean, as you appear to imply, that anyone advocating not shopping at Wal*Mart because of its alleged repressive policies is wrong, and if so, are you, by your own argument, forcing people to buy at Wal*Mart?

I didn't read anyone advocating government intervention here. I read people saying that Wal*Mart engages in repressive sales policies which impact on what types of content people can easily access, and that those policies justified avoiding Wal*Mart and supporting alternative outlets. So I don't quite see the reason for the knee-jerk anti-government response.

The fact that the government doesn't ban the repression of content, and arguably doesn't have the moral right to do so, doesn't make repressing content right. And it certainly doesn't mean we have to encourage them.

Re:without MS all PCs should cost a lot less

[zerocool^]

The suggested retail price for Ms XP is $200.

That is a stiff item at the low end.

OEMs like Hpaq, IBM, DELL and Gateway should begin to offer PCs sans OS as an alternative.

You're missing 2 things:

1.) Windows does not cost us the same per licence as it does HP or Dell. They get it at a discount.

2.) In accordance with their agreement with Microsoft, they get a discount IF and ONLY IF they put Windows on EVERY MACHINE THEY SELL. Hence why if you buy a comptuer from dell, you get windows. Now, if you buy a server from dell, you can get no OS or RedHat or one of several options, but that's a seperate agreement.

So, In order for the big guys to sell computers sans OS, they lose all discounts on other copies of windows they get, something that would cost them more in the long run.

Regards,
Will

that is what needs to change

[Lewis Mettler, Esq.]

It is extremely harmful for Microsoft to penalize OEMs for not selling Microsoft Products.

1. What Hpaq or Dell pays is the wholesale cost.

The wholesale cost has little or nothing to do what they gig you for it.

YOU pay the retail price. And, Microsoft's suggested retail price for XP is $200.

If you want to suggest HP charges something else you will have to get them to say so.

2. Agreements that only the monopolist can sign are inherently unfair and preclude competition.

Does Redhat get paid regardless of whether Redhat sells?

Does Redhat charge more if the OEMs sells a competitive product instead?

If not, then Microsoft should be restricted from such agreements as well.

The jerkheads currently violating federal law priviledges that others do not have is a primary problem and will have to be solved before fair and open competition can possibly exist.

There is no doubt that Microsoft uses illegal means to preclude competition. And, the agreements are only part of that process.

Re:MANDRAKE IS THE ANTI-LINUX!

[xtremex]

Actually, I've been using Mandrake as my primary distro for years, ever since 5.1 or so...I prefer it. Although I swtiched to Suse last month. And my other box has NetBSD which I love.The only thing I didnt like about Mandrake was that it wasnt debian! apt-get is what Linux should be.

Mail this story to various News services

[theolein]

That will make some people sit back and take a second glance.

I wonder how MS will try to counter this? This is what MS did to Netscape and somehow it's fun to watch someone else do it to them.

Mandrake is a good thing

[steveha]

Mandrake really is a good user experience. Before I settled with Debian, I used Mandrake for a while, and it was slick and polished.

This will be great for the consumers who just surf the web and do email; get everything pre-installed and it will just work.

I hope they do a good job of making it easy to set up your ISP, but upon reflection it's probably no big deal. I remember the days when it was tricky to configure net dialup, but these days most ISPs just have a pretty standard PPP setup and all the user really needs to do is enter a phone number in a setup dialog.

steveha

Yes it can

[Sloppy]

I wouldn't be too sure about unlicensed DVD players being illegal. Kaplan's decision was in regard to one particular program: DeCSS, which didn't play movies. This warped Kaplan's decisoin about what it was "primarily designed" (important words within the context of DMCA) to do. He incorrectly concluded that it was primarily designed to circumvent copyright (this making him particularly hostile to it), but was technically right that it was primarily designed to bypass the technological measure. And being primarily designed to bypass the technological measure, was what made DeCSS so vulnerable to DMCA.

A program that actually plays DVDs (even if it contains an unlicensed DeCSS implementation), though, would be another matter. You can't look at the .01% (pulling number out of ass, but you get the idea) of the code in a player that descrambles CSS, and make a good argument that bypassing the technological measure, is its primary purpose.

An unlicensed DVD player would be far less likely to be judged as "illegal." And face it, it would never go to court anyway. 2600 was picked on because MPAA knew 2600 would have trouble defending itself. Nobody thinks that about Walmart.

Walmart has money on their side, and probably the law too. That makes it legal. Go for it, Walmart.

osdfjkdsjklsdjfklsd

[rice_burners_suck]

I think if Wal Mart wants to save money and offer low prices, they should ship x86 PCs with a bootlegged copy of the operating system from Sputnik. There won't be a bootloader, because that would increase the cost, so users would have to separately purchase a book describing how to manually boot the operating system. Of course, it'll be guarenteed to run any application made for DOS, Windows, Amiga, any UNIX, Linux, BeOS, old Atari games, Nintendo cartridges, and it'll play VHS too.

Actually no...

[sheldon]

But why would Wal-Mart do that? And don't give me that goodwill nonsense.

They aren't legally required under the GPL, and again that is $5-10 per computer that they could save for their bottom line.

Re:without MS all PCs should cost a lot less

[boopus]

I didn't say he's worth X amount of dollars. Net worth means verry little. The fact that he started and ran a company, however, means something. Running a company requires skill. "Microsoft has questionable business practices" is a statment that can be backed up and defended. I don't beleive "Bill Gates is an idiot" can be, and is only wishfull thinking.

Re:Lindows and Mandrake?

[rseuhs]

Please somebody mod the parent up, it's probably the most insightful comment I've read on slashdot for quite some time.

Re:MANDRAKE IS THE BEST BECAUSE FRENCH ARE THE BES

[The Wing Lover]

Vous êtes un déshonneur aux personnes partout qui parlent la français

Apparently you are not one of these people. Otherwise you would know that français as a noun is masculine.

Re:MANDRAKE IS THE BEST BECAUSE FRENCH ARE THE BES

[marhar]

For the Americans in the audience, courtesy of the fish...

we are the best, we are the champions, one goes botter the bottom of the americains

(ps, the lameness filter doesn't like the CAPS)

Walmart deserves boycott

[Jeppe Salvesen]

If you look aside from the obvious reasons to boycott Walmart, low wages, goods manufactured in sweat shops, etc, etc, you will still find other good reasons to boycott Walmart.

Walmart censors records. In their high moral stance, they sell records which bleep out the bad words. I dunno if they're gonna blur out Kirsten Dunst's nipples when they sell the Spider-man DVD, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Preloading Mandrake is just a cheap ploy for us to look the other way on their crappy moralism.

Re:Wait

[Mr_Silver]

And PriceWaterhouseCoopers isn't evil on Mondays!

Pity they forgot to register the co.uk domain :o)

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Re:Everyone is missing one thing

[nathanm]

However, the fact that Wall-Mart is big enough to influence what others are selling, and to influence what the magazine's are printing seems illegal to me.

There's nothing illegal or unethical about it. They don't influence what others are selling, only what is sold in their own stores.

I don't know enough about anti-trust laws, but it doesn't seem like Wall-Mart should be able to tell other companies what to do. To me, this seems like an improper use of Wall-Mart's huge market share.

They're not telling other corporations what to do. They're merely enforcing policies about what is sold in their own stores. If they want their products sold in WalMart, they'll simply have to abide by WalMart's policies.

Like I said in a previous post, I don't know how accurate 15% is. But by any stretch of imagination, that's not a huge market share. Microsoft has a huge market share, in both the desktop OS and office suite arenas. WalMart may be the biggest retailer, but they are far from even a majority market share, even further from being a monopoly.

Re:This is a good thing.

[i_am_nitrogen]

Have you ever used LindowsOS? While I personally use Mandrake quite extensively, I wouldn't expect the "average Walmart customer" (as that phrase seems to be so popular here on /.) to fully appreciate it. LindowsOS is, in fact, significantly easier to use in 99% of situations. Personally, I'd rather edit /etc/smb/samba.conf than run a wizard, but does, say, your grandmother want to be confronted by a strange blue dialog in "text mode" saying that a new mouse has been found, and asking her what to do, or would she rather it just start working right away? In no way am I discrediting Mandrake (or likewise favoring LindowsOS), I'm just saying that for your average desktop user, Mandrake isn't as ideal as LindowsOS, and for your average techie, LindowsOS isn't as ideal as Mandrake, SuSE, Debian, or Gentoo (I use gentoo a lot as well - but I have to wonder if the time saved by applications running faster is greater than the time spent compiling ;p).