Time to Purchase a DVD-R?

Evanrude asks: "With DVD writers having significantly come down in price over the past year more companies are coming out with their version of the DVD-R. My company has a large file archive of documents and data that don't necessarily need to be stored on read/write media, but need to be kept online. I want to accomplish this with online DVD storage but is this the right way to go? Who has the best value with the most features of all the DVD-R's on the market? What are some things to look for and things to avoid when purchasing a DVD-R? Is it even time to purchase one, or should I wait another six months?"

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[Anonymous Coward]

first psot !

ASDF SUPER IDOL HEAVEN

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Re:ASDF SUPER IDOL HEAVEN

[Yr0]

i find your ideas interesting and wish to subscribe to your newsletter

Re:ASDF SUPER IDOL HEAVEN

[Anonymous Coward]

It's also good to see that the lameness|compression filter allows such informative asdf postings through along with insightful goatse ASCII art yet correctly prevents short and to the point replies. The 1337 Perl skillz required to code such a wonderous filter shall forever be beyond me.

No

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft hasn't yet formalized their standard, yet, so thus you can not safely buy what you want.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

This post isn't actually funny. Until people have software that works with their system, the economics of the hardware is that it isn't affordable. Example: I bought into CD-R before it became popular, and back then, the software scene sucked, the drive was $600, the disks were $10, my HD was .5 GB. And now, technology has progressed and the same problem is here again. We now have 5 different types of DVD (DVD-RAM, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+RW) and 3 kinds of CD (CD-ROM, CD-R, and CD-RW). Who knows what particular piece of hardware is compatable with which formats of DVD and CD? The beaty of CD-ROM, CD-R, and CD-RW was that it was simple.

And how much data DO you need? When we can stream video off of a dedicated server, why would you need a DVD, especially in the era of 100GB HDs? Can't you buffer off of that?

The line between computers and digital media devices is blurring so fast that people call things like the XBox computers, and play DVDs and CDs on their computer. Look at any college campus, and you'll find that people do everything on their computer that used to require a CD player, DVD player, Receiver, TV, VCR, and more.

I am waiting for Microsoft to support DVD before I buy a burner. Why? Because I'll know that I can use it then. I hope that MS will have DVD management software in Longhorn...

Re:No

[Kazz]

Well, lucky you! You can buy one now! Over 2 months ago microsoft decided to back DVD+R/RW. ;)

As for DVD management software in "Longhorn", here's a quote for ya: "Microsoft will be adding support for DVD+RW into a future version of Windows, code-named Longhorn, according to the site."

...and here's the article it came from. Enjoy. ;) http://news.com.com/2100-1040-879980.html

Re:No

[The_Fire_Horse]

Has anyone mentioned that you are a gutless turd ?

You are a real 'state of the art nerd' aren't you - you cant try anything until 'MICROSUX' tell you its ok... what a loser

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

JUST what we need. another fucking clueless linux zealot. go take a shower, assholehat.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

assholehat

thats funny.. nice one :)

They're nice, but not for you

[Anonymous Coward]

You should really be looking at hard drives. $100 for 120GB isn't uncommon, and it works out to be a lot more efficient than a bunch of DVD readers/writers/media in the end.

--
Chris Lambert

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[Rolo Tomasi]

Depends on how valuable your data is. Hard drives:

• use magentic media
• will fail mechanically
• are proprietary. Saved important data on a hard disk 20 years ago? Hope you have an ST502 controller lying around.
• CD and DVD compatible drives will be around for a long time
• drop a hard drive and a DVD from 10 inches onto a concrete floor. See which one still works.
• DVDs are an optical medium
• a 16x DVD drive can deliver over 20 MB/s, although the access time is admittedly an order of magnitude slower than a hard drive's
• data on a DVD-R can't be accidentally or intentionally erased (luser, virus).
• a blown PSU won't destroy a DVD

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[pla]

data on a DVD-R can't be accidentally or intentionally erased (luser, virus)

Y'know, I've always wondered about this...

Let's say I have a popular program I release on CD (pressed, not burned). If I included code in the program to detect a CD-R drive and, if found, attempt to overwrite the TOC on the CD, could this actually work as a "copy protection" technique?

Aside from the questionable legality, it seems to me that, if the drive contained a CD-R disk, it would destroy it, whereas it would not affect a "normal" CD.

Anyone have any insight on this? Would it depend entirely on the drive's firmware? Can a program more easily detect a CD-R than by trying to destroy it and see if it works?

Just a thought...

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[Kindaian]

You would be sued for damages...

Why not avoid the need for people to "copy" your software in teh first place?

Have you checked what is the price people are willing to give for the program and the like?

A copy protection can't disable or destroy anything... it can only prevent non licenced use of the work...

Why not just add a "internet" license verification at runtime? Would be easier... nasty to avoid... and also on the way you could upgrade/correct bugs in the users program...

Have you thinked of how much money will you waste in "protecting" your work and how much "real" money will you derive from those users that where trully "robbing" you from the dividends of your work (the users that if couldn't access a copy would buy one anyway)?

It seams to me that the majority of the "pirates" aren't actually "buyers" but just "testers"... people who grabs a program to try, train and the like and then use the program (not the copyed, but a original) in a job.

Most will fall in the categories of casual users, students and users from sub-developed economies...
And you will end failing to protect against those that you really need protection... the "big pirates" that have cd and dvd foundries...
The potential users of the program will just think that the program just doesn't work and will try a concurrent one...

The companies if in a developed country, will buy the program anyway... if not... well they wouldn't have the money for it anyway...
Cheers...

P.S.- The world turns in a economical way... and listening to the current media crap regarding the copyright and piracy problems makes one forget the reason for all that... You warrantie that there isn't a reason and you end up with a vestigial piracy problem... (and please... never make your clients mad... they can have the last word!)...

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[steyr_m]

A way off reply....but were you ever in the US Army? I knew a guy with your name in Germany.
dduane at telusplanet dot net

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[Anonymous Coward]

Your last four list items don't match the preface of the list. DVD's:

• Get handled more often, so there is more opportunity to drop them onto a surface. Who cares if it's ten times less likely to break when dropped, if it's a thousand times more likely to be dropped?
• Are also proprietary. Are you sure your DVD-R can read the DVD you burned on another company's DVD-R?
• Data on a DVD-R can't be intentionally erased, or even modified. This isn't necessarily a good thing. Depends on how up-to-date you need your data to be, doesn't it?

Lastly, as to 20 year old harddrives being incompatible with today's, yes that is true. But you have no crystal ball, and you can't say that today's HDDs will be inaccessible in 20 years, nor can you be sure that CD and DVD will continue to be familiar formats. Besides, if the data is important enough to be kept around, chances are the hardware to access it will be too (or haven't you seen machine rooms that still use tape backups from X years ago?)

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[Coke in a Can]

"Are also proprietary. Are you sure your DVD-R can read the DVD you burned on another company's DVD-R?" DVD-Rs can be read by any DVD reading drive. DVD-/+RWs will have problems.

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[Rolo Tomasi]

[DVDs] Get handled more often, so there is more opportunity to drop them onto a surface. Who cares if it's ten times less likely to break when dropped, if it's a thousand times more likely to be dropped?

That's a valid point. As long as you leave the harddrive in place, that's true. But if you have it in a swap mount, things look different. The point is, a DVD is a plastic disc. A harddrive contains a lot of moving parts and sensitive electronics. The data on a DVD is burnt into a layer of dye. On a harddrive, the information is encoded as tiny magnetic fields, which decay over time.

[DVDs] Are also proprietary. Are you sure your DVD-R can read the DVD you burned on another company's DVD-R?

Almost every DVD drive or player you can buy right now can at least read DVD-Rs. Older ones probably too. I don't know about the other standards, but DVD-R seems to be the most agreed upon.

Data on a DVD-R can't be intentionally erased, or even modified. This isn't necessarily a good thing. Depends on how up-to-date you need your data to be, doesn't it?

Of course, depends on the type of data. To quote the original poster: "My company has a large file archive of documents and data that don't necessarily need to be stored on read/write media [...]"

Lastly, as to 20 year old harddrives being incompatible with today's, yes that is true. But you have no crystal ball, and you can't say that today's HDDs will be inaccessible in 20 years, nor can you be sure that CD and DVD will continue to be familiar formats.

There's very good reason to assume that. The DVD is not only a standard for computers, but also for consumer appliances, i.e. DVD players. As long as there are going to be DVD movies, there will be DVD-ROM drives. And probably even after that. Ever wondered why a DVD is the size of a CD? Because it allows the DVD drive to read CD-ROMs. I'd bet that 10 years from now you can still buy a drive that reads CD-ROMs. The same will be true for DVDs: drives will be backward compatible.

Besides, if the data is important enough to be kept around, chances are the hardware to access it will be too (or haven't you seen machine rooms that still use tape backups from X years ago?)

Well, tell that to the guys at the JPL: "For example, NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory is facing a crisis due to the huge libraries of data from space probes like Pioneer that are stored on aging seven-track tapes for which readers are no longer made."

(I believe there was a story about this on /., but I couldn't find it. The quote is from this article. )

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[Anonymous Coward]

L.A. Confidential is such a great movie. If you haven't seen Snatch and Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels, check them out. They're not very similar to L.A. Confidential, but they have the same level of quality. There's also someone with the username atholbrose, which is Scottish soup (I think) and a song by the Scottish group Cocteau Twins. I love arcane references when I catch them...

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't do that. Tell a CD-R drive to write to a disc that's been fixated/closed and it'll just return you an error. The best you could do is erase a CD-RW disc. You CAN detect if the disc is a CD-R though by looking at the ATIP. SafeDisc v2.x does this and refuses to run if so.

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[Anonymous Coward]

No, because no one would be stupid enough to run your closed-source copy protection code as root.

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi, can every single person below this stop talking about hard drives as an alternative! The topic obviously now should be discussing DVD-R drives and their benefits/drawbacks... No one wants to hear for the billionth time you can get 1 gig to the dollar now.

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[AnyoneEB]

nor can you be sure that CD and DVD will continue to be familiar formats.

Actully, it's very unlikely that CDs or DVDs will be unreadable by standard drives any time soon. One company that I know of trying to make a better optical format is making it CD and DVD compatible.

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[gonzoboy]

I purchased an HP DVD+RW about 6 months ago and I no longer use it. A couple of reasons:

1. I've already lost three disks full of information because HP's software cannot seem to handle system crashes. Windows crash = Lose all of your data. (remember I'm using DVD+RW).

2. A big hard disk with a firewire or USB2.0 enclosure is cheaper, faster, and more portable.

3. The lack of a standard has resulted in sketchy compatibility with home DVD players so burning video is a real problem.

4. The lack of a standard also affects PC DVD drives. Sometimes disks work and sometimes they don't. I have experienced complete BSOD's on Win2K when putting a DVD+RW in a friend's player (never seen one before).

If you are still set on buying a DVD writer, then I suggest the following:

1. If you want to burn video, look at your existing DVD player (and those of anyone you want to share with) and check this chart to see which style of drive to get (DVD-R or DVD+RW) http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdplayers.php

2. If you want to do data backups, remember this when using DVD+RW:
Only backup or restore data after a cold boot. Even then you may lose everything if something untoward happens during the process.

3. Really think hard about the external hard disk.
$130 120 gig hard drive
$ 60 Firewire external enclosure
or
$350 DVD Writer
$216 24 DVD-R disks (@ 120 gig)

You can always buy the DVD Writer next year with the $350 you saved getting the hard disk and probably end up with better technology, faster write times, a better shot at compatibility, and a cool 120 gig hard drive with external firewire enclosure. :-)

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[acb]

are proprietary. Saved important data on a hard disk 20 years ago? Hope you have an ST502 controller lying around.

Then again, how sure are you that the CD-Rs/DVD-Rs you burn today will be readable in 20 years' time? Don't CD-Rs deteriorate and become unreadable within a number of years? And will DVD-Rs be any better?

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[Anonymous Coward]

Two words: TAPE BACKUP.

Sheesh.

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[Anonymous Coward]

RAID!!!!

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[troff]

While I was in my first serious tech support job, I asked my supervisor/middle manager whether I should buy one of the new big hard drives or a CD burner. He said to me, "oh, forget the burner. Buy one of those big hard drives. You'll get lost in all that 4 gig of space!"

:-/

(Even sadder, this is a true story... Which is easier to transport to one or many machines: a plastic disc or a hard drive? Would that I had thought this when I first heard it...)

Re:They're nice, but not for you

[cloudmaster]

I'm using a pioneer A0-6 DVD-RW (not DVD+R/RW) under a linux system, and have experienced no such problems. I've not tried rewritable media yet, but my system is "store backups on hard drive, transfer to dvd-r, leave backups on hard drive until they're replaced by the next backup job", so it's not such a big deal if the burn process is interrupted. cd-rw doesn't handle being interrupted mid-write very well either, and most hard drive filesystems also don't like it. If your archival system is crashing, you have the wrong archival system anyway. :)

DVD-R formats

[larry bagina]

My wife and I have been together for nearly ten years. About five
months ago, as Kathleen was approaching her 42nd birthday, we decided
that we had better have the child we would eventually want before it
was too late. Unfortunately, due to a tropical fever that I caught
three years ago, my sperm count was reduced to near impotent levels.
While they will eventually increase back to normal, it will be at
least three years before I could expect to get Kathleen pregnant
with my own seed. By that time it would be too late.

Kathleen is 5'8" 155 lbs. Her hair is dark brown with grey streaks
through it and it's cut close to her head in something approaching a
bob. To be honest, she's fairly evenly proportioned but her ass is
getting a little broad. Still, it looks very inviting in a skirt.
She's very near sighted and requires a fairly strong prescription for
her glasses. She's cute in a librarian sort of way. Besides, I love
her.

We needed a plan that would enable us to have children while still
connecting the child to a sexual contact between us. Sperm banks were
out. So was adoption. After much soul searching we decided on the
following solution. After exhaustive research into family and medical
histories etc. and an extensive interviewing procedure, we would
settle on four different men who would be paid $500.00 a pop for
coming to our house on a regular and rotating schedule based on the
results of our home ovulation test results to copulate with my wife
until she was impregnated.

After each session, I would make love to her so that it may have been
possible that it was my seed that did it. We would not endeavor to
track down the real father. We were prepared to lose $25,000 of our
savings to accomplish this feat. If she didn't get pregnant after
being fucked 50 times, then it would never happen.

Kath was extremely hesitant at first, but as the baby clock began
ticking louder and louder, she agreed to go through with it. We also
needed a way to keep the technical infidelity out of the marriage bed
so we decided to use a guest room downstairs for her reception of the
men's stud services. It would be done in a very formal and business
like manner with positions prescribed for maximum penetration. Each
man would ask Kathleen to wear certain things that would provide them
with a visual turn on. In turn, Kath was allowed to ask that the men
wear certain things as well.

We decided that the act itself should be performed over an upholstered
chair, one that she could bend over easily. It would be easier for
her, she said, if she was not face to face with them. There was also a
desk in the corner, a straight back chair, some baby oil and some
towels and clothes to clean up with.

After each session, I was to take her to our bed and make love to her
in our usual fashion. After about two months of interviews and
personal research, we settled on four men that Kath and I
found attractive enough and similar enough to me in features to be
worthy of the task at hand. We worked out a schedule based on
Kathleen's ovulation cycle and set the date for the first attempt.

A week before David arrived for our Saturday afternoon session,
Kathleen began getting nervous and nearly backed out. We talked about
all of the diffeent fallout scenarios and she finally
decided that having a baby was worth the risk. In order to try and
deal with it, I suggested that we both try and make it a turn on for
us. I suggested that she may want to look at it as a last
chance to do what she wanted with other men and just be happy to get
serviced like few other women ever would.

On Saturday morning David phoned to ask Kathy to just wear a pair of
jeans and a sweatshirt. Kathy, knowing David was an avid cyclist,
asked him to wear a pair of lycra cycling shorts and
tight t-shirt. At four, David arrived, wearing the requested gear. As
I led him into the living room my heart began racing. Kathy was
waiting in the guest room. She was shaking when I closed the door and
went to greet David. The two of us sat down and I had David sign the
contract we had worked out and discuss the finer points of what was
expected.

David was shaking a little too. But I stole a few glances between his
legs as he was reading the contract. The bulges were pretty impressive
and he was semi-hard already. I could see the outline of his cock, the
ridges of his head and his balls were tightly coated in the shiny
black lycra. Kathy always liked this kind of sight. We stood up, shook
hands and I told him, with a quiver in my voice "She's all yours for
as long as it takes. I'm sure you'll enjoy it."

"Um, thanks. Where will you be?" "I'll wait out here until you're
done. And just so you know, the sounds the two of you make will
probably excite me so I'll be pretty hot for her ass when
you come out. Go to it!"

David walked to the guest room door, entered and closed the door
behind him. I savoured the sight of his tight, muscular ass wrapped in
the shiny, tight black cycling tights knowing they'd be thrusting into
Kathleen very soon..

All I could do was wait. After about five minutes, I heard the sound
of Kathy's belt buckle and jeans hit the floor. Then I heard the chair
being moved. In about five more minutes I heard David's
breathing. "Oohhhhhh!" he let out. Then the chair began a gentle
rocking sound. Jenn was dead quiet.

I was getting very hard just listenening to the creaking sounds of the
chair. Back and forth, back and forth. I was too nervous to masturbate
but the knowledge that my wife was behind that door, bent over a chair
with another man's penis inside her was very exciting. It was even
more exciting thinking of their wet, interlocked sex organs and the
fact that we were actually hoping for his seed to become life with her
egg.

Soon enough the rocking sound got very frantic and after about a
minute of the building sound of flesh hitting flesh, David let fly
with a shout "OH GOD YEAH! Ahhhhhhh. Ahhhhh. Ahhh" as his sex organs
were triggered by the friction of rubbing against my wifes inner walls
to ejaculate.

After a minute, the door opened and David, red faced and breathing
heavily with a glow of sweat emerged. He'd just put on his tights. He
had his t-shirt in his hand. He thanked me and I handed him the cheque
and I went to see my wife and finish the job.

When I quietly crept in, Kathy was sitting in the chair. Her jeans
were off but she'd left her sweater on. She was crying, then bawling.
I tried comforting her and saying it was alright but
she just kept quietly sobbing. After holding her awhile, I began to
get hard just thinking about what had taken place here shortly before.
My mouth moved to hers and we began kissing, her
tears streaking her face. Before I knew it she reached for my cock and
began jacking me off. I was so close to shooting I told her to take
her sweat shirt off and straddle the chair. She did
as I asked, her large pendulous breasts hanging down and swaying as
the cotton pulled away, freeing them. She stood, her eyes still wet,
the crying over. She turned, bent over the chair, grasped the arms of
the chair and uttered her first words of the afternoon. "Your turn."

With that I placed my cock head to her opening and pushed it in. I was
up to the limit in one stroke. She was flooded with David's semen. It
felt like slipping my cock into a tight, well worn, kid leather glove
filled with warm, melted butter. After about ten strokes I came into
her. I knew, though, that the experience was really traumatic for her.

Kathy confessed that the act had felt like a dirty affair, that it
upset her for that reason. I suggested that, seeing as stud #2 was due
in a few days she should try and view it another way;
that she was a goddess commanding ritual stud services. She said she'd
try. She did want a baby, and the ritual sex did excite her in theory.

On the appointed day, Kathy was called in to work. We couldn't contact
the next man in line, Steven, in time to cancel. Kathy would only get
back five minutes before she was due for her "injection", no time to
shower or mentally prepare herself. Also, neither would have time to
discuss what to wear or do to prep her for penetration. Steven would
just have to take her in her work clothes after a day at work. But we
did manage to devise a new strategy to ensure that the
maximum amount and force of ejaculation was reached. Kath would tie up
each man's nuts like they do with breeding bulls and place a steel
cock ring at the base of each man's penis. The ring we already had but
Kath had to stop off at a sewing supply store to pick up a piece of
fine silk cord for stringing up her stud's balls.

Steven arrived on the following Saturday at 3:50, ten minutes early.
Kath still wasn't home. We sat down and I had him sign the contract.
He wore a pair of grey slacks and a white dress shirt. He was very
well built. Kathy wore a knee length blue skirt with a white slip and
panties and bra. She had on a navy tunic style blazer and cream
blouse. She burst through the front door, out of breath, and
apologising for being held up. She said hello to Steven and went
straight to the guest room. Steven's eyes followed her ass. It was now
up to him to get it, get her skirt off and seed her. After a minute,
Kathy said, from behind the door "I'm ready, Hon, send him in!"

Steven went in and closed the door. This time, I wanted to see it. I
quietly went out to the back patio area where there was a sliding
glass door opening onto the guest room. Because the patio
was walled, Kathy may not have drawn the curtains. As I turned the
corner to where I could get a good view, I saw that I was in
luck...the view was perfect!

I saw Steven undressing. Kath was leaning, fully dressed against the
desk. She watched him intensely and her left hand made its way past
her jacket and into her blouse to fondle her breasts. When Steven got
down to his jockeys, I realised that Kathleen was in for a real treat.
He was hung like a horse! Kathleen walked up to him and took it in her
hands and began stroking it. He was hard in two seconds. She carressed
his balls and ran her fingers over his muscular ass cheeks.

Then she dropped to her knees. She gently tied the silk cord around
the top of his scrotum and put the steel ring on. Hie veins began
bulging out and his cock was a slight shade of purple. She
looked up and drew her finger nails accross the underside of his
tightened shining scrotum. His penis twitched and he began breathing
deeply. She gently cupped his balls with her right hand
while her left went down to begin tugging up her skirt. Kath then took
his foreskin between her thumb and forefinger and pulled it back,
unsheathing the shiny business end of Steven's cock.
I could see a clear dewdrop oozing from the slit. Soon that slit would
be launching volleys of creamy white seed into my wife's loins. Kath
began smearing the dewdrop over his purple plum-like cock head.

Then, as though she had just spread the icing on her desert, she
parted her lips, let her tongue hang out and sucked it in. "Oh Jesus!"
said Steven as he closed his eyes. Kath went to work on
him. I just sat and watched the back of Kath's head bobbing up and
down from the back. I was content to watch Steven's rapturous facial
contortions as my wife sucked him. His fingers were
gently resting on her hair, occasionally going down and fingering her
ears. Her head began going up and down very rapidly and suddenly,
Steven's knees began to shake and he let out a sharp cry. Kath's head
was still. I watched as her cheeks gently expanded, then she started
swallowing the man's fresh, warm ejaculate.

Soon enough, Kathleen stood up, a string of clear liquid hanging from
her lips. She wiped her mouth, walked to the desk and grabbed the
sides. Steven came up behind her with his beautiful glistening rod
headed for her ass. Kathleen began hiking her skirt up. The first
thing to show was her slip, then her panties, then the skirt was up
around her ample waist. Then came the most delicious moment: Kathleen
tugging her panties down to her knees. This was such a turn
on because it was the final act of permission, Kath dropping her
drawers to allow this man to enter her. With her white cotton knickers
dropping to her ankles, Kathleen was now bound. She
was presenting her little buttered clam for stud service. Steven
brought his hand to her slit and put his fingers inside to test the
waters. Kath was biting her lip and closing her eyes. I could see
her mouth the words "do it". Steven began vigourously fingering her
from behind. Kath's face was serene and smiling.

Steven held onto her waist and began easing his cock into my wife. I
could see his dangling, tied sac of sperm laden testicles dangling
between his legs. Kathleen was grimacing and chewing her lip.
It took about thirty seconds to get all the way into her. Then he
began delivery, fucking her with a strong, hard rhythm. Kath's mouth
hung open and her eyes were clamped shut as he began to drive her
hard. She was clutching the desk and hanging on for dear life as this
young stud prepared to empty his seed into her ripened womb. Suddendly
Steven stopped and closed his eyes. His pushing jerked a little
slowing to a stop with three short jabs as his nuts shook
back and forth, releasing their load into Kath's vagina.

I quickly returned to the front room, hard as a rock. It took them a
little while to get themselves together. Steven opened the door, said
"I'm really grateful to you for this. That was a pleasure."
I handed him a cheque and he left, perhaps to be called back if Kath
was still not pregnant up in a few weeks.

I walked in on my rumpled looking Kathleen. She remained bent over the
desk with her skirt and slip up and her panties around her ankles. Her
blouse hung open and she was glowing with sweat and her heart was
thumping. "Next!" she shouted with a big smile on her face, looking
back over her shoulder at me. "Did you hear all of that, sweetie? I
thought you might like to hear us talking to each other as we did it."
"Um, yeah, that was great" I said, lying. I didn't want to shock her
by telling her I watched the whole thing and that I knew she blew him.
Besides, I wanted in on her wet, freshly humped backside. I came up
behind her and opened my pants at the front, then let them drop. I
pushed my straining erection into her only to feel kid leather soaked
in warm, melted butter!

I began screwing her and asked her how she liked him. "God, didn't you
hear me? He was huge and it really hurt. I just held on and gritted my
teeth. I liked everything that happened up till that
point." With that, I reached underneath her and stroked and worked her
slippery little nub while I fucked her. In short order she quietly
began whimpering and bucking. At least I made her
come. In no time, I, too, had a piece of my wife's ass.

After this session, Kath confessed that she had some ideas to make the
process interesting. She liked David's tight loins and stated that she
wanted to ride him on a stool, facing him. For the next man, whose
personality she didn't care for as much as the others, she would be
blindfolded and lying on her back on the desk, her legs spread, ready
for a quick sperm donor type of encounter. She would masturbate for
him until he was aroused and stroking himself, Then, as
he was about to come, he would drive it into her and shoot. Then I
would take over and remove the blindfold.

When he arrived, Kath was in the room masturbating in her panties. He
went in, and in about five minutes he was mounting Kath and came a
short time after. A quick in and out. We later called him and told him
that we would no longer require his services.

Michael was a lifeguard at the pool. Kathleen instantly decided that
if she was going to get screwed by a man with a swimmer's build, he
should be wearing his speedos. She'd always confessed to me that she
loved the sight of mens crotches at the beach, the ones with their
family jewels encased in the nylon pouches. Michael had asked that
Kathleen wear only her panties and bra.

After the signing of the contract, he stripped down to his swimsuit
and walked to the door. "Take your time!" I said, hoping to prolong
Kathleen's pleasure and get another eyefull of her
in the act. I once again snuck out to the patio. It was a sunny day
and this time the sliding door was open. In no time at all, Kath was
down to her panties and bra and on her knees kissing the
bulge between Michael's legs through the nylon casing. She was
carressing his ass. His hands were on the top of her head.

Kath reached into his pouch and brought out a perfectly formed,
virtually sculpted erection. It was sticking straight up, nearly
against his stomach. Her tongue came out and licked his balls
and then all the way up to the tip. Then she brought her mouth open
down on it and began suckling this statuesqe athlete's penis. After a
while, she figured his pole was thoroughly prepared with a slick coat
of her saliva to slip right in. She was probably soaked and ready the
second her lips touched his pouch. Then she tied up his balls with the
silk cord and with considerable effort, put the steel ring on him. As
the ring reached the base, his penis began to expand even more until
it was pulsing and nealy bursting with veins. A dollop of clear liquid
oozed from the tip.

She lay on the carpet on her back and opened her legs. She dipped her
fingers into her panties and began jacking herself off in front of
him. With her free hand she slipped her fingers into
her bra and pinched her nipples. She closed her eyes and masturbated
for him. After a few minutes she decided the moment was right and
proceeded to the most exquisite part: the almost ceremonial removal of
her panties. Kath raised her backside a little and put her thumbs into
the waistband of her undies. Slowly, she began pulling them off so
that the crotch panel hung between her legs, the last barrier to go
before penetration. She flung them off to the side and spread her
thighs presenting her loins.

Michael was transfixed as he got his first eyeful of her moist crotch
which was now his for the taking. He got down on top of her. Kath
reached between their legs to guide his strung up and
bursting manhood into her. As he eased it in he let out a long soft
moan. Then he began. Kath's legs went up and I was looking at the
bottom of her feet as they hung in the air, moving with Michael's
first strokes. I could just see his ass bobbing up and down, clenching
and rotating. His ass and thighs were taught and extremely muscular.
He was like a athletic fucking machine with the stamina of a
racehorce. They went at it for about fifteen minutes. Kath seemed to
be kissing him and truly making love to him. I could rest assured that
any child that might come from this union would be the product of
really thorough physical pleasure.

I decided to go back to the front room and listen. "AHHHH! YES! A
litlle slower. That's it. Mmmmm" I could her from her mouth. I sat
listening for another twenty minutes. They were STILL at it! They
seemed to be trying the chair, the desk, the floor, everything. This
man had a cock that wouldn't quit and Kath was relishing every second
of his service. She was going get every last drop out of him. I went
outside again to see what they were up to.

They had closed the sliding door and he was doing my wife up against
the glass in a standing postion with her legs wrapped around his
waist! I could see Kath's ample rear pressed like a
ham against the glass, spreading out a bit with each of Michael's
thrusts. Just below her ass I could see her stud's testicles swaying
back and forth in their pouch. The sound of the door frame
about to shatter made him slow down and I guess they slipped a little
because suddenly, just below Kath's ass were multiple jetting spurts
of creamy white come splattering on the glass. He must have partially
slipped out just as he was coming. The glass door was a mess. from the
crack of Kath's ass down to the floor was a translucent whitish
streak.

She quickly got down on all fours and her stud, while his endless
ejaculation continued, put his still spurting rod back into Kathleen.
He held still and let it continue to fill her up.

After the first test since we began our little scheme, we realized
that she'd need another round. She was still not pregnant.
Well...onwards. I called David and asked if he'd be willing to have
another crack at knocking her up. He said sure and asked if the money
would be the same. I said yes and offered him a 500.00 bonus if Kath
tested postive for pregnancy around the time of his visits. He agreed
not to have sex or masturbate for a week to help the build up for a
massive ejaculation.

It was Saturday and Kath called to discuss the turn on needs of David
before he arrived to perform his duties. She apologised to him for
being such a dull lay the last time and that she wouldn't be such a
cold fish this time around. She felt bad about just dropping her
jeans, bending over and remaining stock still while David fucked her,
as if she were just a breeding cow. She said that she wanted him to
make her come.

David asked that she dress up a bit this time. Kathleen was in a
cheeky mood that afternoon so she decided to throw him for a loop. She
would wear her wedding dress! After searching through our storage
area, Kath found her white wedding gown, went to the spare room and
worked on letting it out a little to fit her somewhat expanded girth.
In about two hours she emerged dressed head to toe in her white bridal
gown, veil and all, just like on the day I married her. "This ought to
get him going!" I told her to wait in the guest room until David
arrived.

After repeating the ritual signing of the contract. I sent David in.
Kath had asked that he be naked upon entry. David was stiff as a rock
on his way in. I sat and listened. In about ten minutes, I heard the
first rustlings of the fabric of her dress. He was no doubt pawing her
and gathering up the material to get access to her private parts. In
about five minutes I heard the rhythmic rustling of her satin wedding
gown and Kath's low moaning. I crept up to the door and
opened it just a crack.

Kathleen was bent over the chair with the gown dress bunched up around
her waist. Her bridal veil was still in place being blown away from
her face in unison with his strokes. David was holding on to her hips
and he looked like a dog humping a white poodle. I looked at Kath's
feet. She was lurching forward on her bare toes, just barely hanging
on. David's ass was clenching and he sounded as if he was going to
come. He began humming "Here comes the bride" into Kath's ear. Her
mouth hung open, her eyes were closed. When he said "And is the bride
going to come?" she smiled, her eyes still closed, and said
"Uhh...uhh...uh...obviously I've...uh....uh...got the best man inside
me!" She winced and her orgasm began. David and Jenn were hissing
through their teeth together and let out a tremendous pair of moans as
they shared a brilliant climax.

After the next negative test, we decided to quicken the pace. At the
peak of her cycle, we decided to have all four men rotate through on
four consecutive days. Night after night, they would come, fuck Kath
and leave. Every night I would hear the moans gasps and squeeking
chairs coming from the room. Gentle rocking sounds loud outursts, and
one time Kath let out a blood curdling scream as she came. With David,
she was having the best sex. She even began crying out for God when
she came. I eventually suggested that she just begin having sex with
him whenever she liked.

Kathleen would often come to bed after sex with her studs and tease me
with tales of their couplings. Her routine with Michael began with
them going down on each other. Michael would eat her and she would
take his velvety, plum like cock head into her mouth as he sat in a
chair. She would tie his nuts up in their sac with a silk cord and put
the cock ring on him. She'd bring him to the edge of spurting while
she fingered herself to a near climax. Then, just before he was
about to ejaculate, she'd get up and straddle him, lowering herself
onto his jutting spear.

Michael came to like kneading Kath's ass as she rode him, eventually
taking to pushing his fingers into her asshole using the juice from
their mingling sex organs. Kathleen said she really
enjoyed coming with Michael's fingers in her ass and his teeth
clenching on her engorged nipples.

Kathleen confessed that much of her time with David consisted of him
eating her as she lay on the desk with her knees pulled up to her
chest. He tongued her all between her legs and
routinely licked her asshole and pushed his tongue inside. When she
had come she would sit him down on the chair and fondle him through
his cycling shorts and kissing his cock through them.
She loved stroking his bulge through the fabric and getting him so
hard. After she peeled off his shorts, she would get down on her knees
and blow him and treat his asshole to her tongue bath.
When it came time for her to receive his manhood, she would get down
on all fours and they would do it doggy style. This made sense to me
because I never heard squeeking chairs or the desk hitting the wall
when she was doing it with him.

On one occasion, with Michael, Kathleen tried something different.
Wearing only her one pair of leather pants, she answered the door and
lead Michael into the guest room. On the table she had placed a turkey
baster and a jar of lubricant. She sat down on the chair and told
Michael to stand in front of her. Her breasts were bared and she
reached out to his crotch and rubbed it. Then she opened his pants and
brought out his hardening penis. She gently tied the silk cord
around the top of his sac causing his nuts to bulge and shine in their
drawn tight sac. Then she slipped the steel ring over his shaft and
placed it at the root of his cock causing it to strain and
stiffen to the point of bursting with veins.

She said: "Today I want you to think of my tits, how big they are. How
beautiful they are. How my nipples are like precious fruit. I want you
to spray your seed all over them and then gather it up, put it into
the turkey baster, pull my pants off, ram the turkey baster into me
and inject that seed all the way in."

She began to jerk him off. He was in heaven as Kath lovingly stroked
him with a smooth fluid action. He leared at her heaving breasts and
she just looked into his eyes with a languid, dreamy
stare that said "I'm in control and I'm going to milk you as I please"
She pulled him closer so that the tip of his penis was a foot away
from her breasts. She could feel the heat rising from
between her legs, cased in the leather pants. She was getting hot at
the thought of them being yanked off and having the device shoved up
her cunt and his semen pushed into her. Her legs began to waver back
and forth, desperately trying not to succumb to the need to
masturbate.

Then as Michaels slit began contracting and his cock head began
expanding, Kath's nipples began to harden, just in time to greet the
first volley of spurt. Back and forth, back and forth
went her hand over his excited sex organ. Out it came, over and over,
creamy and warm. Spurt after spurt! Michael groaned. A volley landed
right on her right nipple, causing it to crinkle up on contact. Then
another spurt, and another. Michael was in the midst of an exstatic,
prolonged orgasm with his seed flowing out in beautiful white, creamy
arcs. A gob landed on her lower lip, her tongue instinctively lapping
out to savour it. Soon her breasts were coated in a glistening,
whitish sea of sperm. Her nipples were fleshy hard outcrops in this
sea.

Michael ripped down the zipper of Kath's pants and yanked them off, no
doubt feelng a rush of heat rising from her crotch. He grabbed the
turkey baster and held it in his left hand as he began scraping his
seed off Kath's tits, deliberately brushing over her now slippery
nips, with each pass. He quickly set the warm spurt into the baster,
slathered some lard on it, and placed it roughly between Kath's legs.
With a sharp push, Kath winced at the sudden violation. Michael
held it inside her and pushed the plunger. Kath gritted her teeth and
thought of the seed being injected. Her clitoris retracted under its
hood. She would not come this time.

After this session Kath came back from the doctor's office with a
beaming look on her face. She smiled as she announced our success.
She'd been pregnant for a couple of weeks as best as we could tell. We
were thrilled! The only problem was that we had a new dimension to our
sex life that niether of us really wanted to end.

After informing everyone that, yes, thanks very much, Kath is now
pregnant, Kath asked if she could continue, on occasion, to see David
and Michael. I wasn't about to deny her this and both men, though
without payment, visited us during Kath's pregnancy. Michael dropped
out after a couple of months but David was having sex with Kath right
up to the ninth month. I can assure you that there is no stranger and
exciting feeling than that you get watching a man mount your wife from
behind while her belly is bulging with child and her breasts are
swollen and lactating. I wonder where things will go from here...

Re:DVD-R formats

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF is this crap?? The guy asked about DVD-R recommendations... not to be told a pr0n story. I seriously hope that one of the admins deletes this comment. If you think this is a joke, get a clue and grow up. >:(

Re:DVD-R formats

[GhostseTroll]

iMMerse your soUL in LOVE. ...
forums.planetmooncentral.com/cgi/ topic.cgi?forum=12&topic=28 - 37k - Cached - Similar pages

Satanosphere || Will This Common Household Object Fit Up My Ass?
... don't even need to mention goatse.cx ... and this is important) A FLARED BASE ... forced in
"deep and really fast." ALL YOUR BROOMSTICK ARE BELONG TO US ...
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tell you. All your base are belong to us!!! Windows XP confuses me... ...
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Sadsites.com Guestbook
... You are a terrible monster and I pray for your soul. ... 5. 2001, 12:20: E-mail: man@goatse.cx
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Subspace
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... Post a Followup. Name: E-Mail: Subject: Comments: : http://www.goatse.cx/ : http://www.comp-u-geek.net/.
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Re:DVD-R formats

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya should've checked your grepping of the names -- "Jenn" appears twice -- be more careful.
Oh, you should include "Jon" as the third guy's name.

Re:DVD-R formats

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously haven't been around here very long, have you? ;-)

Re:DVD-R formats

[Big_Ass_Spork]

You sir, are an artist! I need to hide the evidence from my wife now ;).

Yes, i think so

[IgorMrBean]

DVD are getting cheaper everyday I also have to deal with large storage solution, and i'm also considering HD storake, like WD 160gb firewire to store the backup. It can be a cheaper solution than tape backup... Sure, it depends of your needs

Re:Yes, i think so

[Dr_Cornholio]

Yes, I think so too! I've had a DVD-R on my DP Powermac G4 for a year now. I can make home movies and send them to the relies for presents to watch at home and training movies for my company that can be viewed on any standard DVD player. Get one and join the party

A good hardware site...

[taernim]

I'd recommend MWave -- They have really good hardware prices. I searched for DVD-R, DVD-RW, and DVD-RAM and found a good many products in there. Some for even under $300. Definitely worth a look. =)

Re:A good hardware site...

[InnovativeCX]

Yeah, mWave is pretty good. I've done about $8,000 worth of business with them (personal/sys building). Two tips: If you need to return something, ask for Janesha. Nobody else knows how to get anything done, it seems. Also, if you order a case, do *not* ship it UPS Ground, the front panel will come in cracked. Took me about 4 times to learn that one.
</mWave plug>

Re:A good hardware site...

[zaffir]

Hmm, my case wasn't cracked, oh well. :) I had some hassles getting the parts for a complete machine from them, and i had to cancel a few parts - vid card and keyboard weren't actually in stock - to get my order. But since my shipment was delayed because of their site's error, they sent my stuff overnight with the shipping charge dropped. I'll be doing business with them in the future.

Re:A good hardware site...

[pianophile]

I found mwave to be a pain in one regard: shipping to an address other than the billing address. I'm single, I work, and am never home when UPS/FedEx etc. arrive, so I never ship anything to my billing address. Companies that have a problem with this lose my business, and as of a year or two ago (the last time I ordered from mwave) they required hoop-jumping to do this. Perhaps they have become more customer friendly lately, I don't know.

Re:A good hardware site...

[Anonymous Coward]

i've read that mwave's been hacked, and i've heard a lot of bad customer service stuff about them.

the register articles about mwave being hacked

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/209 60 . tml
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/ 21094 . tml

Re:A good hardware site...

[Brian Stretch]

I found mwave to be a pain in one regard: shipping to an address other than the billing address.

They require that you call up your credit card company and register your work address (or wherever) as a valid shipping address. This is a common enough requirement that the Citibank rep I talked with immediately knew what I was talking about. I've had lots of stuff shipped to my work address from both mwave and Newegg (which has the same requirement) and recommend them both. Between the two I can usually find the gear I want.

Not first post!

[Anonymous Coward]

I was tryimg to find the tools to Grep her root but then i remembered that linux was Gay!

Go for it

[mfos.org]

I would say to most people to wait, the standards haven't been entirely ironed out. But it seems that if you need large amounts of online storage and don't really need to worry about compatibility, I'd say go for it.

Re:Go for it

[packeteer]

one thing to remember is to not rely on future prices... like if you buy some type of burner get a LOT of media... you never know if it might go away or raise in price... media is so cheap that you can afford to buy a couple hundred peices and be ok

Re:Go for it

[Alan Partridge]

online storage? Surely DVD-Rs are offline storage? I have a "superdrive" (a Pioneer DVR-103) in my Mac and it's just wonderful - great for backups, never found it to be incompatible in any DVD-ROM drives either. Pisses all over my previous solution (Jazz) and is significantly faster than DAT. Great low cost solution on the Mac, no idea about other platforms - although my DVD-Rs read just fine under Win2K and XP. And I can make DVD videos too!

changer / writer combo

[Anonymous Coward]

only for mac or windows, but i'm sure that won't take too long

http://www.dvdjukebox.com/Products/R200Enterpris e/ RentHWdesc.html

i can't quite remember the price (saw it demo'd at a trade show on campus), but i want to say ~$5000 US

--m

Why bother?

[duke_trinity]

I bought a CDR right when it came out and after around 3 weeks of playing around I stopped using it. Unless you have a real need, a bunch of cash you're looking to burn (in which case I have a nice dot-com I'd like you to invest in), or you're going to be renting a bunch of movies from Blockbuster and ripping them, don't bother wasting the money. They may seem cheap now but they'll drop a lot after New Years.

Re:Why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

New Years? Yesterday was midsummers day. You copy this post from somewhere?

Re:Why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

He asks if he should wait 6 mos. Check your calendar -- 6 mos. from midsummer is New Years.

Re:Why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have a technological need now, few people are going to wait 6-months to save a little bit of money,

6 months is forever nowadays.

Re:Why bother?

[PacoTaco]

I didn't buy my DVD burner until the media dropped below $13.50 each. Why $13.50, you ask? Well, a new movie can be had for $17 and it costs $3.50 to rent one...

Re:Why bother?

[flewp]

If only my friend's place of work would have a better DVD selection. They currently only have maybe 40 movies on DVD, most of the ones I'm interested in, I've seen already. I'd for sure buy a DVD burner then, movies for 13.50 would be pretty sweet.

Re:Why bother?

[DarkZero]

I bought a CDR right when it came out and after around 3 weeks of playing around I stopped using it.

EXACTLY my sentiment. I was an early adopter of both CD-ROM and CD-RW drives, but in both cases I didn't have a regular use for them until about two years later. And I'm one of the lucky ones, if you really think about it. If I had been an early adopter for Laser Disc, Divx, or any of the failed writable DVD standards, I would've wasted several hundred dollars on a stupid mistake.

Re:Why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is a valid point, except that DVD is most definitely an established standard, and DVD+R is compatible with +90% of the existing DVD players and drives - and all of the ones that are truly standards compliant.

Re:Why bother?

[Alan Partridge]

nope, DVD+RW IS the risky option, and certainly not as widely compatible as the DVD-R and DVD-RW formats that Pioneer support. I yet to find a machine that can't handle my DVD-R discs, and the media now costs us less than £3 Sterling per disc ($5?). DVD-R is a solid format, and I'd highly recommend it.

Re:Why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

and the media now costs us less than £3 Sterling per disc ($5?).

or £0.52 sterling even !

here

Mikerr

Details...

[rakslice]

You'd have to have a fairly large jukebox system before it would begin to be cost-competitive with hard drive storage, wouldn't you? How much data are we talking about here?

Re:Details...

[mobydill]

iththat.theythaand.is and .thethattheytheiswiththatand.with.the.theyyoui sthatthewiththeandis thatthetheyouthatisand.theythethatandtheythattoisy outo withand.theywith.andthewith.they tois. .thatandisto the toistotoandwithisyou.youyoutoandtheytothatthewith. youthatthe..tothat withtoyouistheyistheisthethe.theywith.they thattothatwiththattheyisistheythey thatisis.isand. .andthattoyoutheythethatandthatwit hyouyou withthat.andyou .theythey thatyoutoyoutheywithandwithtotototois.andtheyis that.thetheyisyou istotheyyou thatis andyouyouandtheyyouthat.toandandandyou.withtoyouyo uyouthatisis.toandwithandwiththatthe towith thatto.thatthethetoisis toyoutheytheyouthatand.youwiththetheywith theytheywithyou with.to.the you.theyoutoisthetowith.thethatthatwithyoutheyandt heytheywithandtowithandthattheythat.thatandandyouw ith ..towithwithto.the.is .thatyouistheyouthethatt hat.withtheis.theyandthethey thatthattheytothattheywithis youiswithtoyouwithtothethat.theywithtothethethewit h 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The best place for long-term storage is in RAM!

[Verizon Guy]

Google says so!

Here's a hint...

[Anonymous Coward]

If she has a root, she's a he.

Re:Here's a hint...

[Anonymous Coward]

OTOH, if she has a box...

Re:Here's a hint...

[GhostseTroll]

OTOH, if she has a box...

... you can store those tools in it.

Re:Here's a hint...

[Anonymous Coward]

You've gotta wonder if women ever use their vaginal cavities to store things. I don't mean like smuggling heroin across the border -- I mean like everyday.

If I were a woman, I'd make it a point to keep something in my snatch at all times, even if it were only a marble.

Re:Here's a hint...

[dbaigrie]

they do its called a tampon...

yes I know i'm going to get a zero here but it had to be said...

Re:Here's a hint...

[MaxVlast]

Ever hear of toxic shock syndrome?

Re:Here's a hint...

[Anonymous Coward]

Way OT, but here goes. Two quick jokes:

Q: How can you tell a West Virginia (or your favorite rural area to ridicule) girl is having her period?
A: She only has one sock on.

Q: What's the worst affliction these girls suffer from?
A: Toxic Sock Syndrome.

Sorry.

Too many types...

[UnAmericanPunk]

I've been thinking of getting a dvd writer drive as well, but decided to wait. Mainly because there's too many differences in the writers, there's dvd-r, dvd+rw, dvd-rw and so on... I donno, maybe some of those are the same format. I read a couple articles about how certain types are better than others and how one was supposed to have support for just read only (currently it's rw), then backed out of that, and so on.
So I think it'd be better to wait till they got a format that was agreed upon by all. Otherwise it reminds me too much of the k56flex vs. X2.
Besides, the longer you wait, the more favorable the price will be...

Re:Too many types...

[Kibo]

Not to mention the blu-ray writers. While they aren't exactly compatible, 27 GB per side is a hell of a lot of p0rn! Think of all the multiple angles! And advertisements! But half-kidding aside, supposedly these could be in a store near me by fall 2003. How long would it really take before someone made a hybrid drive with a red and blue laser that could read both formats, and maybe write both too?

Re:Too many types...

[Anonymous Coward]

ok... in 20 years there will be holographic displays in every electronics store... does that mean I shouldn't fork over the $700 for a new 18" LCD?
If you always wait for the 'next big thing' you'll never buy anything.

DVD-R(W) is great for what it does. It's the standard which is most compatible with set top dvd players, and has the cheapest media. Why anyone would want the +R(W) is beyond me.
Check out DV Magazine, they have a great comparison of the standards, but only from a video standpoint. For data I suppose the +R would be better since it records slightly faster (2.4x vs. 2x).
But, since video is my primary function, my Pioneer 104 DVD-RW suits me just fine, thank you very much.
If you're looking into massive datastorage, firewire drives are ok, but only if you can accept the risk of having to explain to your boss why the backup of his data is fried (cheap hard drives crash, it's a fact).
It's hard to determine your exact needs, but if it's data storage only, either stay with tape or get a DVD writer. Even if you go the firewire HD route, I'd still recommend having a second backup, the ]sorry, we can't do anything[ reply from DriveSavers just isn't worth it.

Re:Too many types...

[pizza_milkshake]

How long would it really take before someone made a hybrid drive with a red and blue laser that could read both formats, and maybe write both too?

I'm thinking perhaps one purple laser...

Re:Too many types...

[BrookHarty]

Using CD's to back my HD is a pain, but its cheaper than tape. DVDRs are too slow still to use, and blanks are expensive. (For now..) Trying to backup a website that is 6gigs (db dumb/etc), and would fit on 1 blank media, would rock. With 80-120 gig HDs out there, 4 blanks to back up would be a god send.

BTW, my Half-Life directory alone is 9 gigs, with mods, skins, level, movies, sounds. My entire Game directory fills a 80 gig PC. We need larger media NOW.

If it needs to be kept online

[Xeo2]

If it needs to be kept online, it'll probably be cheaper and certainly faster to just buy a couple of 100gb harddrives.

Hard Drives are best for online storage

[-tji]

Why mess with DVD-Anything for online storage?

I just picked up a few 120GB disks for $110/each. That will hold a lot of DVD's worth of Data. If the data needs to be kept on-line, HD's are much faster than any DVD drive. You'll also need another DVD drive for each 5-10GB of data, if using DVD's. So, the HD solution is much cheaper too.

DVD's are fine for backing up that data, but for real-time access, they are not ideal.

Re:Hard Drives are best for online storage

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

You'll also need another DVD drive for each 5-10GB of data, if using DVD's

That's silly. A jukebox only requires one DVD drive for X number of DVDs, depending on your requirements X could be as large as 400 - that's the size of the largest consumer DVD *movie* jukebox - a Kenwood something or another.

As for data jukeboxes, take a look at the Powerfile C200 Studio which is $1000 MSRP (not street) for 200 DVDs. With blank DVDs runing about $1.25 in quantities of 100 that puts you at no more than $1250 for 940GB of online data and probably closer to $1K if you buy from a discount hardware place.

The equivalent space in hard disks is going to run you more than that - according to pricewatch, the cheapest 120GB is $136 for the IBM models. Ignoring the reliability questions regarding recent IBM hard disks, that puts you at about $1100 just for the drives alone, you are looking at another $500 or so for an IDE controller that will handle 8 drives (3ware escalade 7850) plus you then need some sort of case to hold the drives and the computer in one since IDE cables aren't suppossed to get much longer than 18".

So, at least $1700 for an equivalent disk-based system, without redundancy. The DVD approach will give you a full mirror in offline storage for another $250 but to put redundancy into the hard disk system you are going to need either raid-5 or mirroring - both of which will significantly push up the price because 8 drives is the limit for a 3ware controller so you could go with larger disks (160GB) but they are about 180% the price of the 120GB drives or you could go to two more controllers controller and maybe five 120GB drives per controller which is going to be another $500 for the 2nd controller and another $270 for the extra drives pushing the total up to $2500 or so for the cheapest raid-5 system.

Sure, online storage of a disk array is going to be a whole lot faster than near-line storage of a DVD jukebox, but the guy who asked the original question only needs near-line speeds and the price with DVDs is a about half that for sizes around 1TB.

Mississippi Fuckshitse

[GhostseTroll]

A professor at the University of Mississippi is giving a
lecture on the supernatural. To get a feel for his
audience, he asks: "How many people here believe in
ghostses?" About 90 students raise their hands.

"Well, that's a good start. Out of those of you who
believe in ghostses, do any of you think you've ever seen
a ghostse?" About 40 students raise their hands.

"That's really good. Has anyone here ever talked to a
ghostse?" 15 students raise their hands.

"That's great. Has anyone here ever touched a ghostse?" 3
students raise their hands.

"That's fantastic. But let me ask you one question
further... Have any of you ever made love to a ghostse?"
One student way in the back raises his hand.

The professor is astonished and says, "Son, all the
years I've been giving this lecture, no one has ever
claimed to have slept with a ghostse. You've got to come
up here and tell us about your experience."

The redneck student replies with a nod and a grin, and
begins to make his way up to the podium. The professor
says, "Well, tell us what it's like to have sex with
ghostse."

The student replies, "Ghostse?!? From ah-way back there ah
thought yuh said "goatse."

The time is right? No way.

[Enonu]

I've been told the only decent DVD-R drive out there is the Pioneer DVR-A04. One decent drive doesn't inspire me to go out and buy a DVD-R drive just yet. Anybody else know of a better DVD burner?

DVD+RW

[Xoro]

I've just been thinking the same thing. Unfortunately, there are a couple of competing standards out there now: DVD-RAM, DVD-RW and DVD+RW. The first, DVD-RAM, seems to have no future that I can see, and is apparantly a superclass for several different standards. Apple's DVD writers are the second kind and probably have the largest installed base. But it looks like the big players are going for the third ("+"). In addition, one of the -RW format's big supporters was Compaq and HP supports +RW. I'm assuming that Compaq will switch camps, leaving Apple more or less isolated. That has me leaning toward +RW.

One thing to watch out for -- the "first generation" of +RW drives can't handle write-once media. They're RW only, and the disks are more expensive. HP, for one, is releasing a second-generation writer (maybe called the 200i?) this month, that can do the write-once archival thing.

If I really needed it now, I'd go for a newer +RW format. But it would probably be less risky to wait 6-12 months to see how things shake out.

Re:DVD+RW

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck DVD+R. At least DVD-R is the DVD Forum standard.

Re:DVD+RW

[Yr0]

dvd-ram is a competely different kettle of chickens to dvd+-RW, dvd-ram was designed to be large storage that is reliable over many rewrites, and across platforms (eg for video editing), dvd*RW is designed mainly for storage, not continuous rewrites. also, dvd-ram comes in cartridges. whereas dvd*rw are just discs

Re:DVD+RW

[daveschroeder]

DVD+RW is technically not even a DVD format. Technically, it can't even be called "DVD". It can't even use the familiar DVD logo. Only formats approved by DVD Forum (DVD-RAM, DVD-R, DVD-RW) can technically use the name DVD and the DVD logo. DVD+RW is more appropriately referred to as "the +RW format". It's bad enough they're confusing the marketplace by having two formats with the same exact name with only a non-alphanumeric character being different between the two.

All that said, yes, all the big Wintel companies will probably successfully force DVD+RW on the marketplace, and eventually win out. You're sold yourself: referring to +RW as "3rd generation" (it's not) and "newer" (which it is, but you're using it to imply "better" or "more mature", which it's not). +RW is a COMPETITOR to DVD-RW, not a generation ahead of it. DVD-RW is the accepted DVD Forum standard, but apparently the Wintel crowd just couldn't stand Apple being first[1] to the table with a new technology again.

[1] As in, the first big player to mainstream it, akin to 802.11 with AirPort.

Re:DVD+RW

[Anonymous Coward]

actually, it doesn't really have much to do with Apple. The big reason is that two of the main companies behind it, Philips and Sony, weren't getting as much royalties from it. Since they make tons of money from royalties of the CD, CDR, and CDRWs. (all drives, discs, etc) they wanted to do this again. so they got together and formed the + standards. by being recognized by the DVD forum they'd have to pay royalties. The only real PC companies involved were Dell and if you'd like to consider HP one, HP. however HP has other agenda's like it's DVD+RW video disc recorders and HP Unix. You might also say Sony, but Sony only cares about not paying as much in royalties and they have their whole video/audio sections as well just like Philips.

While i don't know for sure, i'm guessing Apple just buys their drives from an OEM. since DVD-R/W was available at the time, and apple needed some gimmicks to make people buy their machines. Video Editting was chosen since that's a key use of a mac, and making your own DVD's was chosen as the marketting point. then just continuing with the standard was fine.

but in the end it won't make much difference as they're already introducing yet another video disc standard in it's final process.

Also, most (if not all) DVD+RW drives for computers have a very nice advantage. they support the Mount Ranier standard which, in combination with UDF, gives you even better Drag and Drop CD Creatrion than with DirectCD and normal CDR/RWs. This is also coming to CDRWs as well since that was it's first target. The drive itself, i believe, does the bad sector and error handling. ie address translation, similar to that done by CDRW drives written with packetwriting. the PC see's it like a removable hard drive.

Re:DVD+RW

[Namarrgon]

My, don't you sound bitter. What is it with you & this weird agenda? Is it all because Apple promoted DVD-R, and somehow you associate DVD+R with the Wintel crowd, which is therefore the Enemy? Sigh.

The DVD Forum backs the DVD-R format, the DVD Alliance backs the DVD+R format, and consumers couldn't give a damn about either of them, except apparently you. The DVD logo is only usable by DVD Forum-approved products, the DVD+RW logo is only usable by DVD Alliance-approced products, and again you dredge up another meaningless legal distinction.

But where you get the idea that DVD+RW products "technically" aren't DVDs and can't even be called DVDs, I still don't know. The letters "DVD" are not a trademark, so it's not even a legal issue. Technically, since DVD+R discs more closely resemble DVD Video discs due to how they're written, that makes them more a DVD that DVD-R, but again - who cares. They're both equally compatible with DVD Video players & DVD ROM drives, even with each other - they both read each other's discs.

Since "better" is a very subjective term, it's pointless arguing over that. One could say that DVD+R/RW writers are faster & more flexible than even the 2nd gen of DVD-R/RW writers, but then DVD-R/RW writers & media are still a little cheaper, so maybe that's "better" for some. Or maybe just that Apple is backing DVD-R (since it was available first) and not DVD+R, is enough for you.

In any case, get over it. Both standards have their advantages, and since each will read the other's discs, the only real concern consumers need have is where to get the appropriate media. There's no need for such blatent FUD, even here on /.

Re:DVD+RW

[jafuser]

That's it. Forget this... I'm not going to bother with any (re)writable DVD[+-]* formats. I'm going to just stick with CD-R until I can find either the 27G capacity blue-laser discs announced recently here, or the flourescent multilayer discs which have been (slowly) coming along and should be due any time now, or something else...

Re:DVD+RW

[Anonymous Coward]

dvd-ram type 2- allows the user to take the disk out
of the cartridge (after data has been written to it) and
played in dvd players.
optical disks have shelf life of 30 years!!

Re:DVD+RW

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the drive apple is using is a PIONEER drive - and it is Pioneer who have been developing DVD-R/DVD-RW standards as a founding partner (together with the likes of for instance Matsushita and Toshiba etc...) in the DVD consortium. This is no Wintel/Apple thing at all. Apple only included the pioneer drives in their setup because much of their userbase are in the graphics business & this is an interesting medium for them to store videos and backups on... I certainly hope somebody will create a drive that 's compatible with all the standards, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if it would be Pioneer - they 've proven their name, being at their 4th DVD-writer generation now...

Re:DVD+RW

[AnyoneEB]

"flourescent multilayer discs which have been (slowly) coming along and should be due any time now, or something else..."

if they ever come out :(. When I first saw that site they were supposed to come out in early 2002, now they're saying early 2003.

Wait a little longer.

[mesozoic]

DVD burners will go the same way as CD burners. There may be a bit more competition over formats (since it's a lot more obvious how much of a cash cow DVD burning is going to be for corporations), but eventually they will become fairly inexpensive. Give it at least six more months, if not a year or so, before you consider making DVD burners part of your company's storage strategy.

Re:Wait a little longer.

[denttford]

Depending on the company, having a DVD-R burner is not such a bad idea, if budget allows. The readers are cheap, and if DVD-R becomes antiquated, at least your data is not locked up. Of course, with standards up in the air, I would not recommend a company wide distribution, relying on an unsettled technology. Moreover, for online, accessible data, a HDD seems to be a wiser choice, regardless of the price and ultimate stability of the the DVD-R* standard, no?

Re:Wait a little longer.

[aardvaark]

Off topic, but the quote from you sig is originally from Einstein. Aasimov must have "appropriated" it. Hey, if you have to steal, steal from the best.

Use hard drives...

[bob1000]

The cheapest 4.7G dvd drive from pricewatch is $36 which is $7.66/gig. A 60 gig hard drive is only $69 which works out to be $1.15/gig. There just isn't any reason to use DVD for online storage when hard drive space is so cheap. The software raid driver in linux makes these large arrays easy with a trivial amount of hardware behind it.

Re:Use hard drives...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ive noticed that hard drives are rediculously large and cheep! Just two years ago a 17G hard drive costed me £150 and a 40G (the largest avalible) would set me back about £1000!

Re:Use hard drives...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, this is true, but don't forget that a DVD ROM is read-only and, if used with a DVD reader (not writer) for accessing the documents on the company network, no one can tamper with that data.
RAID is swell, and Linux is pretty tight on security, but when someone's 13-year-old owns the corporate data, this guy's job will be toast.
DVD = tamperproof without physical access (unless someone wants to spoof the ip and redirect users to a fake archive, but at least the data's still safe)

Re:Use hard drives...

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, pounds-sterling boy, I don't know how they conjugate verbs on your side of the pond, but here in America we say "cost," not "costed."

Re:Use hard drives...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well at least over here we use the metric system and not that brain damaged imperial rubbish!

Re:Use hard drives...

[GigsVT]

I agree about using hard disks for the most part, but there are DVD changers that hold several hundred disks, did you really think he was going to buy hundreds of 5 1/4 inch DVD drives, one per disk?

Re:Use hard drives...

[Anonymous Coward]

Who invented the "brain-dead" Imperial system? Same folks who gave YOU the pound, asshole.

How does it feel to have your limp dick measured by a frog? That's right -- you're using the FRENCH system of measurement.

Re:Use hard drives...

[Verizon Guy]

The software raid [tldp.org] driver in linux makes these large arrays easy with a trivial amount of hardware behind it.


Windows 2000, I might add, has dynamic disks, which allows, in addition to software RAID, resizing partitions on the fly without even a logoff, and other cool stuff, like partition table replication. Partition table corrupted? No problem! Just replicate the database from another dynamic disc in the system [click, click] and you're set!

Re:Use hard drives...

[GSloop]

Well at least they had enough sense to abandon the totally moronic system.

Lets see,
12 inches = foot
Oh, but 3 feet = yard.
Mile, oh, that's 5280 feet, or 1760 yards, or 63360 inches.

So, lets see,
1cm = 10 mm
1m = 100cm = 1000mm
1km = 1000m = 100000cm etc...

Which seems more simple?

(Even more whacky, was the GB monetary system. Pounds, schillings, pence, etc! Sheesh!)

So, the only brain dead country still using a totally limp measurement system, is the good old US of A, who didn't even invent such a stupid system. Perhaps we should also start believeing in a flat earth too! (Gah, as an American, we can be such stupid fools - english measurements, electing GWB and his Jack-booted cronies etc!)

Re:Use hard drives...

[Anonymous Coward]

How do I divide a Meter into three equal parts?

A system of measurement where the standard length (a foot) divides into both 3 and 4 evenly is very practical. A system of measurement (1/4", 1/8", 1/16", 1/32") for drill sizes makes it easy to grasp the size of the hole you need.

Sorry, your Metric system just looks good on paper.

Re:Use hard drives...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oy, bend over and I'll show ya me yard!

Just as certain as my rod is 5.029m long, the official system of measurement in the U. S. of A$$holes is the SI, our official language is English, our favorite color is green, the flight speed of a swallow (African) is 15-45MPH depending on whether it is laden or unladen, and our quest is to find the Holy Grail.

For everything else there's Crystal Meth

Re:Use hard drives...

[Alan Partridge]

"How do I divide a Meter into three equal parts?" Easy, divide by three.
BR>How do I divide a Foot into ten equal parts? Come on, your argument is totally spurious. Sure, base 12 is just wonderful - but only PARTS of the imperial system ARE base 12. Feet and inches are great for carpentry, but fuck-all use for science and engineering. Going Metric makes a lot of sense. If the British can see that, it can't be too difficult for Americans, can it?

Re:Use hard drives...

[GSloop]

Sheesh, you're thick in the head...

Like 1mm, 2mm, 3mm, 4mm is too difficult to grasp?

Is that 4mm is twice as large as 2mm and four times as large as 1mm too much to handle?

Oh, yeah, I just love, hmmm, lets see, 1/4 is ahhh.... yeah, 4/32'ds.

Anyway, stick with your english system, you'll probably only impact Mars a few more times before you decide to switch!

Sheesh...

Re:Use hard drives...

[Polo]

How did this ever get modded up so high with such flawed numbers?

Current-generation dvd-r/dvd-rw writers like the pioneer dvr-104 are around $250 (US). You could probably pay less for older-generation drives that don't do dvd-rw.

4.7gb dvd-r and dvd-rw media are around $1 (US).

Slashdot more and more like a newsgroup

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, a place where anyone can wander in and ask the same old basic questions!

Perhaps Slashdot should just move to Usenet and abandon this silly pretense of being News for Nerds.

Re:Slashdot more and more like a newsgroup

[Anonymous Coward]

But only the BEST trolls make it to Slashdot.

DVD? Why?

[mrmag00]

Why would you ever bother putting a large amount of data on DVD? Espically when it needs to be accessable from the internet. You are going to end up spending a lot of money on the DVD media ($20 a pop i believe?) and then you need to buy an equal number of dvd drives to be able to access all the data. You will likely need more then one writer to be efficient with the entire process, too.

A 80gb IDE drive costs less then $100, and holds more then 5 DVDs. If you need speed, go SCSI, it'll end up costing as much as the opticial solution and be easier to manage. But really, optical media has been obsoleted by todays harddrive sizes. If it needs to be portable, then there might be a reason to go for it, but even then you should look at removable harddrives.

Re:DVD? Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

$20 a pop? last year that was ture.

for the write once media, about a dollar a pop
not exactly a big deal for that

I DO SAY R-2!

[mobydill]

iththat.theythaand.is and .thethattheytheiswiththatand.with.the.theyyoui sthatthewiththeandis thatthetheyouthatisand.theythethatandtheythattoisy outo withand.theywith.andthewith.they tois. .thatandisto the toistotoandwithisyou.youyoutoandtheytothatthewith. youthatthe..tothat withtoyouistheyistheisthethe.theywith.they thattothatwiththattheyisistheythey thatisis.isand. .andthattoyoutheythethatandthatwit hyouyou withthat.andyou .theythey thatyoutoyoutheywithandwithtotototois.andtheyis that.thetheyisyou istotheyyou thatis andyouyouandtheyyouthat.toandandandyou.withtoyouyo uyouthatisis.toandwithandwiththatthe towith thatto.thatthethetoisis toyoutheytheyouthatand.youwiththetheywith theytheywithyou with.to.the you.theyoutoisthetowith.thethatthatwithyoutheyandt heytheywithandtowithandthattheythat.thatandandyouw ith ..towithwithto.the.is .thatyouistheyouthethatt hat.withtheis.theyandthethey thatthattheytothattheywithis youiswithtoyouwithtothethat.theywithtothethethewit h 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andyouisthetheisthat..tothetheytois.andandyouwitha ndthattheandandto.toyoutheythey..thatandtheyandand withthatthey.andtowithwithwithto.withtotheythatyou to thetheythatthetotheyouwithandtoand.isandisyouwithw iththethethe .you thetheiswith.thetothatandis isisyouwiththeytheyyouwith withisisandthatthatwith.withisyouthe.theywithwith withandtoiswiththe the iswith.tois.theytotheywithtoandyou.theythatyouthat withyouwith with withyou.the withthatthetheyisyouwith.that isthetheyandtheis.theyis they isyoutheyisyouthattheyandthattheyouthewith. .youwi th thetheyyoutowithto.istheistheis.thewith withtheyyou.andtheyto theythewithisthethetoto andthat thatisthetheytoistheyandtheyandyouthe iswithyouyouto theyyouyouwiththeywithtois.that.andthat youthewith .thatandwithtothewiththewith.isandis andyouyouyou .thattothatyouthatisandtheytoyou.andt hattheandandto.isistoiswiththeytotothatthetoisyoua ndandwithtotothatis.toistoisis.thetheandwithwithwi th iswith.they.you.withis..withyouwithtoyouthatthetoy ouisand iswithyouyouthewithandthatandtheythethatthatwithwi th.that.youisyouand isisthey .toandthethe thewithis youyou.theisyouandthat.theis they withistoiswiththeto isyouisthethethattheyis.that theand the.tothatwithtotothethattothey.andtheywithisyouis isistheywithyoutoistoand that.withthey .theiswith.theythethetoyou.youwith . thatand.with to.thethatthatthatyouistheytheytoyoutotheyouthe the withtheandyouthewith.they theandwithisthat .withto.with.thatto.andyou.youtot hatand.theyyouto.youwithisto andtothethetheywith .you toistheywithandwith.and. .thethat.you .withtothe isthatthatthewiththeyis.thattowiththat thetoisthatis to thatandandiswiththatwith the theandis.andyouandthewiththattothatisis to.thethethethattheyyouthetheyyoutheythey youyouyou tothe.with..theywithisyouisthe toisyouandwith. they.youthethetotheythetoyouyouyoutowithtothethe thatthetotheyiswithis.youtheis.thatwithtoyouand.to . ithyou.thatisandtheyand andyou .and. andtotoandyoutheythatyouthey ..towithtotowithand that.isandandtheandyouwith.is.theyandwithtotheyand that.and isistheytheywithtothattheytheyouto.withwithtothey. andthatwith.they.you.tothattoisisthatto.andis.that youyouthe.toyouistotowithandwiththey .tothey.theis . . youthetheytheywithwiththewithwithtoistoto.theythey . . heythattheythatandto. thetoandyouthattheytheythetoandtheisandtheandtheis youyouwiththeyto.the thattheyyouandthat is that..thethatthatistothey.is.thatthe iswith youisandthethethe.andisisyou andthatandtheytothewiththey.tothat withyouis youyoutheyouis theythatthatthatto.. theythattototheyyou.andtheytothatwiththethattheyth ey.thattheyyouisyou withyoutothatthethey.istheistothatwithtois.youthe with. theyisandthethattowithisthattheis.thetheisyouthatt heyis withyouthewithtowiththethatwithwith.toisthe...yout oistheytheyand andwith tothethe.theto.youtowithwithiswith.theyyouwiththat . . ouwithtotheytoisyouthatwithand.. thatthewithandtheyyouwiththeyyouthattoiswithtoisth eywithtotheytheywithtoisthatthe.that andtowithandthattheyandtheythethewithyoutheythethe you.andtois..theand.tothey the.andistheandwithtoto isyouthatyouiswiththetheythatyouto youwiththewith you.is with youiswithandthat.is andyoutoandis .you..andandto .they withthey istheyandis to thethatthatthe.thethatandwithyouthatisandtheandyou withwiththat isthat.theisyouis. totheisandandthethey theytoyoutheyandistoyoutheandwithtoto they.to.andtoandtheythatthat youandyouwithto.totheyto toandwithto towiththatthethey .iswiththeandtotheythethattheyis youtheto.you theandthey youthewithtothewith..isto you.withthethat andtheytoand youthatand theyyouthatyoutothatandtoand .withandto.theytoandt heyyoutoyouand andistheandyouistheythe.withwithwiththatand.tothey to.thattheyis .they withthatyouyouthe the.towithis.youthatyouwithwithto.toisandtheyandth etotheythatthethetothetheyandthe.you totoisandthe thethey toisandyoutoistheyisthey withtheythattoistheyouwith.totheyandwithiswithandw ith isandthetheywithyouthey.is withthe.andthewiththey.withandthe.to..to.thattoto. thatyouthatthatyouand youwithyoutheyoutheytotheythewiththeyyouandyoutoth eytoyouis.theandtoandto.thethetheythatwiththeythey ouandthethatyouandtoyouistoandisyoutoandistotheyth eythat. andtothat. they..and.thatisisisandtheyyouwith theythat.youtheandto..andthetheyis.andandtheytothe yisthatthatyou...thatwith.theyisthattheandisisyout heyand isyoutoandtheythat. with .theyandandistheytothatisyouisisthethetothatt heyyoutheyou that.thattoyouyouthe withisthetheytheyiswithtoandwiththeandthatthat.the y to withthewiththeythatthatyouthatiswith.thatyouwithwi ththeyisthey andandthat.thewiththeandyouwithyouandthethe.andthe yistheythe tothat.thethatis thatwiththetheandthewith to withtheiswithyouthatandtoto.theyyouthatyouthewith . theytotheywithto tothatis totothe..thatistoyouthewithtowiththethethatthe.the yistheandthey istheywith.withisthetothatthattheywithyouisyouthey outothetheistotoand to.withisand. toyouand .they.isto.isthe.thatthewiththeytothatis withand tothey the.andthattheytheytheyouyouyouthat.istototoyouthe andwithandis.to..istheytheywiththat isthetowith..with.isthat . thatthey the. is andtheythewiththeyandandandtoyouthethattheto withtoandthat.you.theywithisisto totheytheyyoutoandyou youandtheyandtheyandto youthatisthetoiswith theistotheytheythat tothe you ..youistheythatthe .the.toistheandisisyouthat tothethe andyouthey. withandthey.thatthat thetheythatisisthe andthatyou.. toyoutheyouwiththattowiththeywith.theyandisthat you.isthat isisisthewithyouwithisisyouand withtoisthatyouwiththewithyou .with thewith withistheistheytoyoutoand thethatwithtoandthat andthatyouandisandyoutowiththeywiththethey towiththattoandandtheisthatistheyyouthat theywiththey.withthatthatthattothattotowith.thatan dandand theisthatistheyyou.youwithtothat iswithyouandwithisthetheytheto youtoandiswith.and withthe.youto .to theytothewithtotheyto.withyouistothe andthatyouthetheyisisyouiswith istowithtoyouisistothatisyoutheand.andthe.is.theyw ithisthey withyouthethatyoutheto you.thatisand.theyto.theisthatyouwithand.istheiswi ththeythey thetheyistheythatwithis withand.is. theywiththey thatwith that.thethatyoutheythatthatthetothey.andto theythe.tothey the.. isandtothatthat.isthey thetoisiswithyouand withthey. thatand.to theandthethey.thattheis withyouwithisand.towithyou andwith .youtheistheyyoutothattheisthey withyouand withtheyisthat.andtoyouandtheyandthatandtheyisthey and andthethatthe.youandtheand.theyoutheytothetheyandy outothatiswiththewiththat andyouisis withtheytotoistoistheyyou .isthatwithyou thattoto..thatyouistoto.theytheytheyandtoyouisandt heis thethewiththeythatthetheythatiswith.andyouthetheth atwithisand.with.thattotheisthey withyouthetothey theisistotothatwiththatyouthetothatthetheytowithan dwithwithisthethattheythattheythatthe.theisthey towiththeywithwiththeytheywithand thatyouyouandwiththe thethatthattotheyou thewiththey.is andand to is isthattheytheyoutheytheyandtheyandwith.tothatwithi swith theywiththatiswith.and andistheytheyandyouwith.withtheyisand.withyouthat. andwithyouthewith.andand the they withto andiswithandwith..and thatthat youyoutoandtheyto theywithwithto totheyyouwiththe isistheistheytheandis you.is .istheythatyou..the..youtotheywiththeandtot hatwiththeythethatthe.thethattotheyouandistothetha ttoandiswith andthatandthattheandtoisisandthattheyisyouandtowit h withtoand theythatisthe withthat.is istheytothat.youyou.toisisthey theisisisistheythetotothetothatthattoyou the to the theytheandis.with.youisthat toyou isandthatthe they.withtheythetothatyouthattheytothe iswiththewithyouwithisisisto.theandthattois.thatyo uthetheythe.isand ..theytheytheyyouandandyouthey . that theisthat youandand. andwithyouisis.withtoto. iswith with tothetheythethey..with theyyouthey..youwith.youthat .withthatandyou.withw ithtothey.youandthatthe.iswithyoutotheyyou withto withwith.that.thetheyis the.youthewiththatwithwithtothatthewith.theyouthey youyou the.isthethethatwith.withwiththeto.wt. thatwithisistoisyouthat thatisis totheyisandthe .thethatthewiththeythey.thetheytois thetotothatyoutheyyouthatyouthat. toandisand.theyyouto youis thatyoutheytothey andandtheyyouandthattheyandyouwiththeisisyouwithto theyyouistheyandthetheytheistheywithwithistoiswith isyouwiththethattheiswithtothatisandthatthatwithwi thisistothethe totheyyouisthe theythey.withthe.andandwithwithand.thethewith

You said it yourself...

[unitron]

"...more companies are coming out with their version of the DVD-R."

As someone once said, that's the great thing about standards, there are so many of them. You might want to wait and let the dust settle rather than risk a heavy investment in a possible orphan format. Already HP and a couple of other makers are weasling on drives that were supposed to be software upgradeable to record more than one DVD-R or RW format, but it turns out it's not going to be that simple and the hardware will have to be replaced.

Re:You said it yourself...

[rodgerd]

Which standard wins is largely going to be a question of what burners end up being used for. DVD-R has the benefit of the widest compatability with consumer DVD players, so if all you're interested in is dumping your home movies to DVD rather than VHS, that seems the best bet.

Re:You said it yourself...

[SN74S181]

Unless that format isn't the 'standard' that emerges, in which case two years from now you've got a burner for which media is available from one vendor by mail order, at seven to ten times the price of the media that becomes the de-facto 'standard.'

Re:You said it yourself...

[Kashif Shaikh]

You might want to wait and let the dust settle rather than risk a heavy investment in a possible orphan format. Call me pragmatic, but I just wanna know which DVD-burner will burn Playstation 2 dvds:)

Re:You said it yourself...

[ogre2112]

If your using it for backups.. who cares if it's an orphan format, as long as you can still purchase the media/drive.

Re:You said it yourself...

[hackerzrus]

"As someone once said, that's the great thing about standards, there are so many of them."

The wonderful thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. --Admiral Grace Hopper or Andrew Tannenbaum?[A]

[A] It appears the saying even applies to itself! Andrew Tannenbaum wrote this in both editions of Computer Networks, the first of which was published in 1981. However, some evidence indicates that Admiral Hopper first said this in the late 1970s, and the saying is attributed to her by The Unix-Haters Handbook. Tim Salo posed the question on the IETF mailing list in September 1994, and he received a variety of responses, which are summarized at major mailing list archives. (Among many other locations, his summary is archived at this link.)

credit: this link

Re:You said it yourself...

[sjames]

If your using it for backups.. who cares if it's an orphan format, as long as you can still purchase the media/drive.

The problem is that orphan formats tend to disappear entirely or become very expensive. Manufacturors know that if you're buying an orphan format, it must be because you have to. Their pricing strategy for media changes from "must be competitive" to "just barely less painful than porting to the dominant format". The drives are even worse. There, they can use the strategy of "just barely less painful than losing all of your archived data to date".

A couple of years ago, I saw refurb. 100MEG RLL HDs available for only $600. At that rate, it would only cost $18,000 to replace my 30Gig.

SL4 Mailing List: Re: Coercive Transhuman Memes an

[GhostseTroll]

we just suck. Votes: 15. ... Login. Make a new account. Username: Password: ...
www.satanosphere.com/story/2002/4/30/191513/5 64 - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

MyHomeTechie.com :: News, Reviews, and Help for all computer ...
... http://goatse.cx My e-mail: adam@goatse.cx ... Signature: Best Regards, Apple Developer
Connection Extra info: ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US ...
myhometechie.solidblue.biz/ user.php?op=userinfo&uname=AppleRocks%7CLinuxSUX%7 C - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

ALL YUOR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!! - The Awful Forums
... Quote All your base are belong to us!! [This ... Quote FUCK!!! no more goatse.cx
pics here damnit. I hope lowtax kicks your ass. ...
slangdesign.com/base/ - 67k - Cached - Similar pages

LameSpy -- Nightly Rant
... Terms: Britney Spears, Britney Spears Naked, Britney Spears Naked Holding Beers,
Britney Spears Naked Riding a Horse, All Your Base Are Belong To Us, goatse.cx ...
www.lames%. 'word to your mother'. 15%. 'do not leave it's not for real'. 3%. 'a/s/l'. ...
www.customize.org/forum/1797 - 50k - Cached - Similar pages

Keepers of Lists - Top 47 Embarrassing Lines Of Windows Source ...
... To Vote, 17, 2, sleep(10^50); IE.openURL("goatse.cx"). ... 4, char buffer[100]; gets(buffer);.
Login To Vote, 27, -5, // all your base are belong to us. ...
beta2.keepersoflists.org/index.php?lid=random - 25k - Cached - Similar pages

K5CABAL
... have to write "ALL MY BASE ARE BELONG ... granted domain over all posts regarding "All
Your Base", goatse.cx ... he's well armed enough to take all of us ...
www.mindwarped.com/cabal/members.html - 29k - Cached - Similar pages

RobSayers.Com
... ) and after all, ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO ... When are y'actics; Go strategy and tactics; Goatse ...
www.wikipedia.com/wiki/ specialall gunna come ... getting my
neighbor to let us ... Handle: Jeff Krustoffski Homepage: http://goatse ...
www.robsayers.com/guestbook.php3 - 28k - Cached - Similar pagespy.com/nightlyrant/view.php?articleID=18 - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

CNN.com - Bush, Blair ready to face world trade critics - July 19 ...
... AcadeSL4 Mailing List: Re: Coercive Transhuman Memes and Exponential
... There's also www.goatse.cx which I found in someone's sig w/oa warning and decided
to view it ... > fnord > > all your basemy during the "All Your Base Are Belong To Us" crisis. actics; Go strategy and tactics; Goatse ...
www.wikipedia.com/wiki/ specialAnnan also cast doubt
on the accuracy of BuSL4 Mailing List: Re: Coercive Transhuman Memes and Exponential
... There's also www.goatse.cx which I found in someone's sig w/oa warning and decided
to view it ... > fnord > > all your basesactics; Go strategy and tactics; Goatse ...
www.wikipedia.com/wikSL4 Mailing List: Re: Coercive Transhuman Memes and Exponential
... There's also www.goatse.cx which I found in someone's sig w/oa warning and decided
to view it ... > fnord > > all your basei/ specialh's assertion that the picture posted at the goatse.cx ...

Seedy-R formats

[RumbaFlex]

Wow this is the only story i eve got a hard-on from reading at slashdot... except the storys about big iron :)

Just an opinion...

[TheOldFart]

Maybe it could be an option for "posterity" type backup though even that is dubious given that the standards aren't quite there yet. Some recorders will produce disks that are not readable on different readers, etc. If you must get something, go with Pioneer. They seem to be the most "compatible". I use one for my PC along with the DVDR that came in my G4 and they both produce disks that are readable by all DVD readers I have. The media is also a problem. They tend to be rather expensive and convoluted. There are different types of recordable DVD disks. I've been buying the Apple branded disks as they are the cheapest I could find (around $25 for a box of 5, or $5 per disk + tax). Also realize that it takes "for ever" to record these disks.

If you just want to have this data available on line, I would simply stack up IDE drives as it has been suggested earlier. These drives are getting cheaper by the minute. Find yourself one of those IDE Raid cards. For the price of a DVDR you can get the controller and hook up 4 160G drives giving you 640G of disk storage. To make it secure, make it redundant. It still is cheaper (considering the time saved in recording) than the DVD route.

Re:Just an opinion...

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you need to check price watch (www.pricewatch.com). I bought some DVD-R's for about $1.25 each and some DVD-RW's for $2 each about two months ago. In 10-packs not 100-packs.

Re:Just an opinion...

[bofkentucky]

Last time I checked the apple superdive was a rebadged pioneer, that might explain your good fortune on the compatability side. Home players seem to like DVD-R/RW's as opposed to DVD+R/RW. That being said I'm not buying yet. What I am waiting for is a single standard to be set in stone and video cameras utilizing that format to be produced.

Re:Just an opinion...

[Alan Partridge]

rebadged? mine has Pioneer written quite clearly on the flap, and System Profiler tells me plainly that it's a Pioneer DVR-103. Apple aren't pretending that they make it, "Superdrive" just gets the point across that it can read CD-ROM and DVD-ROM, and that it can write CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R and DVD-RW. And anyway, it IS super!

Re:Just an opinion...

[bofkentucky]

Was not aware of it bearing the pioneer badge. I've been mac recovered for like 3 years now. I enjoy having more than one mouse button and cheap hardware.

GOD Bless You AC !!!

[Anonymous Coward]

ACs Rule!!!!!!

I wouldn't go this route.

[papasui]

Personally, I wouldn't go this route when selecting a large storage format for a business unless it's know that only one person would be accessing this information all at once. I would expect the performance to horrid when multiple people try to access different information from the same DVD. I'd much rather use a large scsi raid array for storing this type of information.

"Hard" Driven twinks are best for online "storage"

[mobydill]

iththat.theythaand.is and .thethattheytheiswiththatand.with.the.theyyoui sthatthewiththeandis thatthetheyouthatisand.theythethatandtheythattoisy outo withand.theywith.andthewith.they tois. .thatandisto the toistotoandwithisyou.youyoutoandtheytothatthewith. youthatthe..tothat withtoyouistheyistheisthethe.theywith.they thattothatwiththattheyisistheythey thatisis.isand. .andthattoyoutheythethatandthatwit hyouyou withthat.andyou .theythey thatyoutoyoutheywithandwithtotototois.andtheyis that.thetheyisyou istotheyyou thatis andyouyouandtheyyouthat.toandandandyou.withtoyouyo uyouthatisis.toandwithandwiththatthe towith thatto.thatthethetoisis toyoutheytheyouthatand.youwiththetheywith theytheywithyou with.to.the you.theyoutoisthetowith.thethatthatwithyoutheyandt heytheywithandtowithandthattheythat.thatandandyouw ith ..towithwithto.the.is .thatyouistheyouthethatt hat.withtheis.theyandthethey thatthattheytothattheywithis youiswithtoyouwithtothethat.theywithtothethethewit h thethatwiththeyouandyouwithtowiththattheythat.the totothatthatand.with withthethattoand theyistoandtheyto.thattothethe.totheytheyouyouthat theyouyouyou.youandyouandandandyouwithtois.youthat with.youisthatwithandandandisandthe. the. youisthat.withtotheywithtoyouiswithyou.thetoisthat andthattheyouandwiththeyisyouthatthey tothatthe istothatthatto thatand iswithyoutheythatthatisyouthe andtothatwiththewiththeythat.thetheythewithisandth eytheythatwith .isistowith.toistoyou youthe.with..to.theyouthat.withiswiththeywiththeya ndisisthe.to thewiththethatwiththatthatto theywithandisyouyou.withto.is.withthatis thatisyou andandyouandisthatandisyouistotheythatwiththatyouy ou youtoandistheyandyouwiththatisthatthatandthetoandi stheythethewiththetheyis theyistotheyistheytheytheyiswithtowithyou they..thetheythat.toyouwithyoutheywiththethethatis . to.andisthatistothattheyiswith.withyou andthattothey tothey tothatyouandyou thethetheiswithandto.and.andandtotoandthatisthe youthatwiththetois. istheyandandandyou theywithyouis.and withyouwithtotheytheyand thatandtothey withyouand . thatthatwithis.andis.they with. withyoutheythethe.thattheywithtotheistowithandthey ouwithandiswithwithandtothattheistothe thetotoandyou.withyouthatthetheandtheyyouandtothet heto theyis isthey.thatyoutheyandandandisthatyou.iswithtoyouto youthey.you thetheythatthat.with.tothatthatwithyouthatandtheyt oyouthat.isisandistheythethethey withthatwithtowiththeyandistotheytheyandwithandthe theyis . tothethetheyisthetothey. isyou thattheisand.toisthatisthethethey.andwiththethey . withwithandto..withthe youthat with.withyouandisyouthetheywith you withisandyoutheandwithisisis.thattheytheythatwithy outhatyouyouwithandiswith.thatthetheyisisthatis.th eisthey youyouto . .youtoyouyouandyouis theto with isandtheisthetheyandtothattotheythat istotheythethethey.thewiththethethatistoand .theyt owithandtheytheisisthatyoutheywithis.withtheywitht he theythatistheyandtheythewith.youistothatthetoto thattheytheyouthat.with.towiththatto to..andthatthat thetheyandwiththatthattheyandto you isandandyouthat andyou.withandand.theyyouiswith theytheywithandwithwithto tothetothatthatthattothatyouthey.andthatandandto.t hey .theyisthethethattheyoutheythetoisyou.andisist heandisthe andis.youtheyand.towithand you withthatthatyouwiththetothatwiththeythewithwith.an dthatwithyouandyouisandtheywithwith withandtheyyouwiththeyisthattheywithand thattoyouto.thatthethatwithandwithandandisthattoth atthattheythattothewith. that .theytheytoandistheisandandthatthetototothatt hatandyouandthethat toandthattothat isandthatwithistheisthethatwith withtotheyisthatand.thetheythe andthattheyyouyouiswith theisthattheythat.and.youto..istheistotheywithwith . otoandisandtoisthetheyisthat .youthat thethey thatthatthey.thetheywith andthetheythatis.youthewith.toandand.thatwithtoyou theythethatisandyouwiththattheandtheyyouistothey.a ndyou withtheythe.toyou .the the.thattheyandandthey 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youwithyou.thatandandistoandistheyandthat.tothewit hthethat isto.tothattheytheandtheyyoutheyandyouthattheto theywithwiththeyandandwithwithwiththethethetoistha tyou toisyou.withwith.toandis youtheywiththatandwiththe.toandyou.iswithyoutheyth atyouthey.toyou withthey thatiswith.theyouthat withtheistheyoutheyisisthatisthatyouyouthatyouwith thewiththetoandisandwithwiththey youwithwithwithtois andtheytothewiththeyandwithwithtoyouthethewiththet o youtowithyoutothe totheis is thetheyou..withwiththattheythe.thattoyoutheyouthei syou.isiswiththatto tothetheandthat. istoandthattotowith.withthetheyoutoandtheytheythey thatwithwithwiththe is.thattheythatyouis. theytheytoyou is..thattheytoand.is.thatis.withthatwithis..youisi s.. andis.thatisthe.towithis towiththeytheyouwiththey thewithisthey.tothat and theytheywithwithiswithyouthey.totheytothatyou.thet he theandtheisandthatwiththey with.thatisthattheyouthatthatyouthatand.and.withto tothat..totheythatyouwithtothatwith 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Problems with DVD-R

[Anonymous Coward]

My experience with DVD-R is that they warp too easily. Also, the various companies that are producing these have yet to agree to a standard, making several DVD-Rs unreadable with others.

Re:Problems with DVD-R

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean they generate warp fields when current is applied WHOO!! Garage Enterprise project anyone?

safe storage or a bunch of coasters?

[Butane Bob]

I have had problems with corrupted media. Must have been BIT ROT. I wouldnt say DVDRs are a stable storage medium yet. If you want to store non-critical data, maybe they are ok, but every once in a while expect to have a disk go bad and be unreadable for no reason. At least I do any way. Maybe this was a while ago and they have become more reliable by now.....

Re:safe storage or a bunch of coasters?

[Anonymous Coward]

have you kept them out of direct sunlight? that could be what's making them go bad. dvd and cd-r should have a shelf life of 100 years if you don't leave them out. (then again, neither of these formats have been around for 100 years =])

DRM and DVD

[jaaron]

When I saw the title I thought this would be about whether or not to get a DVD-R now before companies standardize on Digital Rights Technology that could effectively cripple the device in the future. In fact, that would be the only reason that I would consider getting a DVD-R (or +R or +RW or whatever other format and crazy acronym they come up with).

Just get an external/removable HD...

[RyanFenton]

Really. The cost per gig on an extra hard drive is no longer prohibitive to just use one to back up your data, then store it in a safe location. It's faster in transfer than a CD, and depending on setup, could work very well with a central server in your network used to back up files. There are various caddy's available from various companies, so the process would be to plug in, and synch up with the server.

Just one example of such a product

If I needed to set up a comprehensive backup, I'd definetly choose a secure central server for important data with a nice RAID setup, and have a set of external HD's synched up daily and stored offsite.

The major disadvantages to CDr/DVDr's would be vulnerability to magnetic damage, and lack of a true history due to the write-once nature of CDr/DVDr's. You'd still want a CDr drive also, for things like mailing data to people, and perhaps for special backup situations with limited data. I still see no major role for a DVDr drive though.

Ryan Fenton

Re:Just get an external/removable HD...

[Anonymous Coward]

Magnetic damage? To a DVD or CD? WTF?
I could stroke my favorite Windows XP CD all day with an electromagnetic ferrous dildo and it still wouldn't rot the EULA.

DVD still not up to Par

[HamNRye]

I work for a newspaper where we have just completed a cost comparison for CD based systems to DVD based systems. We have a large Image archive that was outgrowing our second 100 CD jukebox. Our quandry, should the new Jukebox be DVD or CD based.

4.1GB per disc (with double sided support not looking promising...) at 100 DVDs = 411 GB storage
100 CDs = 65GB storage. (roughly)

Our first look was at the costs associated. The Price difference between a DVD Jukebox and a CD jukebox was not insignificant, but was not a breaker. The writers have come down in price, and the Media is expensive, but not prohibitively so. So, from a simple cost perspective, the system was feasable.

However, when working with provided demo models, we found a 25% CHANCE OF BURNING A COASTER, with the write times being ridiculously slow. We then recalculated for the extra media expense and extended staffing. (The admin would need to keep a longer watch less often, but the CDs could be burned during the BU guys shift, now they will go past.)

With the addition of two hours employee time and planning for the purchase of 10% more media, the costs of DVD were slightly more. Then the vendor called, the DVD jukebox requires new switching Software that runs some $5,000.00.

So, we looked for used CD jukeboxes, found one for almost 1/2 the price of the hardware alone, and it still works with our old software.

Now, we did all of these calculations based on price per MB, and condidering the the DVD system has 7x the storage space, that also means it is 7x the cost. I feel confident that when we revisit this upgrade in 2 years the prices will be dramatically lower and the quality will be better. I still think you can't beat a $50 CDR and 0.20 media costs.

Unless you work for a company that enjoys having the latest and greatest (OOOH! I can access the SAN from my PocketPC with wireless.) I think you'd be better off sticking with the tried and true methods, wait for the writing SW to get more stable and wait for the standards to crystalize.

01 - That's my two bits
01110110 - That's the Byte I took out of "Crime"
Hammy

Re:DVD still not up to Par

[jandrese]

Honestly, my first thought when I read your post: why don't you guys just buy a few HDs? I've built 2/3 of a TB of RAID5 storage for $1500US. Granted you'll probably want to spend around $5000US and get a real solution (not my ghetto setup) that will probably give you a full TB of storage for not a whole lot more than one of those 65GB 100 CD changers.

Re:DVD still not up to Par

[spiral]

> why don't you guys just buy a few HDs?

Great idea. All they'd need then is some sort of terabyte backup system. Do you recommend CDs, DVDs or tape?

This keeps coming up again and again. No matter how cheap HDs get, they just don't have the durability, portability, or lifetime of "real" offline storage. Sadly, backup technology just isn't keeping up with HD capacities. When >1GB drives first came out, you could get 20GB tapes. Now that we've got 100GB drives, the world needs a TB archive media.

Re:DVD still not up to Par

[bugg]

It is RAID5, so a catastrophic loss of data would only occur if several disks failed before they could be replaced. Granted, RAID5 protects against harddrive failure but it's not a backup- but considering it should cover natural HD death, I would say that should be sufficient.

As for the backup, well, the original CDs that were loaded onto the jukebox can act as the backup of music data, no?

Re:DVD still not up to Par

[labradore]

Yes, RAID 5 is a good way to keep your data safer than a simple disk array but it really isn't a good backup medium.

• If the machine that houses the RAID dies, can you put it in another machine and get the data back easily? If it is a good RAID then it probably has a dedicated controller, so you should have an extra on hand.
• If the RAID machine gets burnt up in a fire, how will you get your data back? You don't seem to have off-premises storage.
• Do you have the RAID set up to do incremental, differential and full backups of your data? Can you get back the data from yesterday, last week and last month?
• If someone maliciously screws with your system then it seems that all the data can be wiped out immediately. This can't happen if the storage media isn't physically in the machine--or on the premises.

Re:DVD still not up to Par

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn karma whores. Did you read what the original poster even wrote?
From the message you replied to:
Granted, RAID5 protects against harddrive failure but it's not a backup

and you reply with:
Yes, RAID 5 is a good way to keep your data safer than a simple disk array but it really isn't a good backup medium.

No, really?

Re:DVD still not up to Par

[io333]

Huh? Just buy twice the # of hard drives & use them for backup. Since they're only being used for backup and otherwise just sitting there (spin them down when idle), their lifetime is more or less infinite. Also, backup then happens in a fraction of the time of tape or DVD.

Backup with tape made sense when a tape cartridge was larger than a typical hard drive, and also cheaper than a typical hard drive, not to mention that hard drives used to be extremely expensive as compared to the present day.

If you want portability, there are quite a few ways to drag a hard drive around and hot swap it wherever you might need it.

And "real" offline storage? WTF do you mean by that? I've seen far more tapes die than HD's. I still have two hard drives over 15 years old and they still work. The typical life of magnetic tape is 10 years. I've had plenty of CDs die too.

Maybe you mean punchcards? Those suckers last forever so long as the overhead plumbing holds up! Maybe I should hook the old card reader back up? I'm sure I saw it around here somewhere just the other day...

Re:DVD still not up to Par

[brad3378]

&gt I still think you can't beat a $50 CDR and 0.20 media costs.

That's debatable.
Hard Drives are approaching a dollar a gig.
Check Pricewatch.com sometime. $85 for 80 gigs or $136 for 120 gigs isn't too shaby even if it is a 5400 RPM drive. Besides, if you're doing backups, a 5400 RPM drive is going to be way faster than the fastest burners, and WAY easier to automate.

Last Thanksgiving I actually beat that price.
(60 gig Western Digital for $50 after rebate at bestbuy)

Yes, I do burn my ghost backups to CD, but lately, I'm wondering if it is even worth the effort at the cost of hard drive space.

Re:DVD still not up to Par

[Anonymous Coward]

> 01 - That's my two bits
> 01110110 - That's the Byte I took out of "Crime"

01110110 == 0x76 == 'v'

There's no 'v' in "Crime"
Maybe you meant 01101101?

Re:DVD still not up to Par

[AnyoneEB]

I think that's what the plan for WORM/RW FMD's. They will supposedly hold mutliple terabytes... now if only they come out before $10 hard drives hold multiple terabytes too...

Re:DVD still not up to Par

[JSmooth]

Hmm. I question any business analysis based on wild assumptions.

If DVD burning averaged a 25% coaster rate they would all be out of business. I can't even imagine how you arrived at that number but here are some thoughts to you and the rest

1. I have had a burner for about six months now (Panasonic A03) and have burned approx. 100+ Discs and have yet to make a coaster.

2. Speed. The DVD burns at 1x or 2x for data (2x = 8x CD burn) which, yes compared to CD takes awhile but you are burning alot more data! And buring above 8X on a CDR may produce unreliable results especially for video.

3. DVD-R is almost (about 95%) compatible with DVD-ROM drives and about 90% compatible with commercial dvd players for those of us who like to burn home movies to something better than svcd.

4. a media cost of $.20 for a cd equates to spending $1.40 for a dvd-r (7x20). I get my DVD-Rs in bulk for ~$1.15) and a GOOD CDR will cost you ~100.00 where the A03/04 is going for ~300.00. A ~200.00 initial savings for a business investment is negligble but if you are burning many discs than that $.25/ can add up.

Re:DVD still not up to Par

[WNight]

You can do a 5+0 RAID (I think, or is it 0+5?), which is a RAID 5, that is mirrored. Pop a set of drives in, mirror the RAID onto them, and pop them out. Move them off-site for storage.

It's more secure than CDs because the data is interleaved across all of them in such a way that losing any one to three disks won't actually lose any information. In a CD backup you'll actually lose information if a single disk fails, unless you stripe the data and parity info, but few systems support doing that unless you burn all the disks at once (which isn't likely).

I saw a dedicated raid controller that they used for this. It had eight drive bays, plus another eight. It could run off of either set, and would mirror the RAID 5 across from one set to another as soon as the drives were inserted. Trivial to operate.

Re:DVD still not up to Par

[jandrese]

1. Yes. The RAID setup I'm using is a vinum solution. If I were to pull all of the disks out and stick them in a different FreeBSD machine (even one I just installed fresh) I would be able to get my data. Replacing a controller is no problem. In fact I alraedy had to do that when one of my Promise ATA controllers bit the dirt. Since I'm using software Raid (don't need super performance on my backup machine), the controllers are pretty generic.
2. You know, nobody else on this thread has off site storage either. They're talking about local CD changers. Honestly, offsite storage isn't terribly practical for home users. BTW, you can move the drives offsite if you like (removable harddrive for instance).
3. Yes, I do incremental backups (and weekly full backups). dump is a nice little program.
4. Technically the storage is in a different machine (a fileserver) but that's beside the point. This is the one advantage the offline (or write once) backup. I'm not overly concerned with malicoius deletion though. My home network is fairly secure and I don't make a lot of enemies. :)

This is pretty much a tradeoff between cost and paranoia. Sure you can backup to optical media, then have a Brinks truck immediatly pick it up and drop it into a vault half way across the country with reviewed forms and a armed guards preventing unauthorized access to your backups. Sure it's secure, but it's not practical for a home user or even a small business. The downside to tapes and optical/tape is that they are slow, expensive (relatively), and have limited access (I can restore any file in seconds, try to do that with offside tape storage).

Re:DVD still not up to Par

[NomNet]

> > why don't you guys just buy a few HDs? > Great idea. All they'd need then is some sort of terabyte backup system. Do you recommend CDs, DVDs or tape? Er, HDs ? > This keeps coming up again and again. No matter how cheap HDs get, they just don't have the durability, portability, or lifetime of "real" offline storage. This keeps coming up again and again. No matter how cheap HDs get, then you can just buy more HDs, just as cheap ! > Sadly, backup technology just isn't keeping up with HD capacities. When >1GB drives first came out, you could get 20GB tapes. Now that we've got 100GB drives, the world needs a TB archive media. When 100GB drives first came out, you could get more 100GB drives. And duh, you still can ! HD's are by *FAR* the best backup format - they're quicker than any other, and actually making a backup is trivial using a disc imaging program.

Re:DVD still not up to Par

[A55M0NKEY]

They actually release these to to public with a 1/4 chance of burning a coaster when the media is $20 a pop! Man I would be mighty pissed.

Re:DVD still not up to Par

[dubl-u]

No matter how cheap HDs get, they just don't have the [...] lifetime

Really, it depends on what you mean by "lifetime". Even assuming the media is still good, try finding a working drive for an arbitrary backup from a decade or two ago. And longer than that? Forget it. (But it's plausible that CDs will be an exception.)

For moderately long-term storage, your best bet is stone, although some metals are a good choice, too. But really, the only currently successful medium for real long-term storage is DNA. That's not because DNA is durable; it's because Lots Of Copies Keep Stuff Safe.

So the lesson is that if you really want to be able to get at your backups in the future, the best way is to keep them 1) live, 2) distributed, 3) replicated, and 4) monitored. Whether you do that by colocating a couple of hard drive arrays or by encoding the data into bacterial DNA with checksum-linked apoptosis mainly depends on your budget.

Re:DVD still not up to Par

[Pandora's Vox]

the RW media is 20$. the write-once stuff is cheaper.

Re:DVD? Why? +[real DVD media cost]

[Anonymous Coward]

DVD-R media cost $1.19 each, while DVD-RW cost a whopping over-two-times that, at around $3 each.

6 months is unimaginable.

[Futurepower(R)]

6 months is unimaginable. 5 minutes is forever.

I'm waiting for the standard :D

[ZaneMcAuley]

I'm waiting for MS to get the standard set (finally) in longhorn :D

Re:"Hard" Driven twinks are best for online "stora

[DivineOb]

Indeed

DVD Jukeboxes

[handsomepete]

The company I work for currently uses Plasmon jukeboxes for DVD media coupled with Kofax's Ascent products. We store document images on them and you would be surprised how quickly they go. It's certainly not the end all of storage solutions. After messing with these things for over a year, I'd say they're more trouble than they're worth. Explore other routes unless this is for extremely limited access. Although the jukeboxes can be occasionally found for cheap on E-bay, you still might be better off running good 'ol fashioned hard disks.

If you do go the DVD route, watch out for:

Running out of discs (these things go faster than you think)

Jammed discs

Depending on the client software, inane Windows error messages - quite a few programs don't know how to handle waiting for a disk to move into an active drive.

...and if you don't use Windows, well... lucky you. Just my experiences - everyone else's will undoubtedly vary.

Bah!

[Anonymous Coward]

"online DVD storage"

Umm...which marketing droid wrote this?

DVD-R/RW/whatever still:

a) is too expensive
b) has no real standard
c) is too slow for real multi-user access

Sorry, Sony, Phillips, Toshiba, and whoever else had a hand in this post---the technology as well as the politics behind it sucks hardcore. With cheapie IDE drives sitting at less than $1/GB it makes no sense to invest in DVD-R's unless you're looking for *OFFLINE* storage. And really, with CDR drive and media "free after rebate" offers floating around almost daily...DVD-R certainly doesn't look too appealing for offline storage either.

Re:Bah!

[Anonymous Coward]

Technically at http://www.cdrecordable.com, their DVD-R disks are $1.25 each in packages 100 and $.99 each in packages of 1000. So technically DVD-R disks (which have 4.7 GB of storage) are as low as .21 cents a gigabit, significantly less than $1 GB for a Hard disk. These are US prices of course.

microsoft support

[fuct_beyond]

Microsoft has taken a liking to DVD+RW, which may be a factor in some peoples decision. The next OS is supposed to have native support much XP has with CD-RW. I've also seen linux kernel patches for DVD+RW in development.

dvd-rw

[Anonymous Coward]

Oliver got the shock of his life when he woke up one morning. He found that his wife had walked out on him. A short note lay on the kitchen table telling him that she would not be coming back. And Oliver had no idea that she had been unhappy with their marriage.

After he got over the shock he tried to get on with his life. The thing he found hardest was the lack of sex. He had always had a highly charged sex drive and the lack of sex now was driving him to distraction. He wanked off to try relieve the pressure in his huge balls, but it wasn't quite the same.

And then one day he found a solution. A new colleague at work invited him round to supper. Toby has a handsome man in his late forties, with dark hair and sky blue eyes. His wife Rose was as pretty and dainty as Toby was rugged and handsome. They both made Oliver feel very welcome in their home and sympathised with him over the break up of his marriage.

The trio enjoyed a good meal with fine red wine. As the evening wore on they all felt relaxed and happy in each other's company. Toby suggested they take another bottle of red wine into the living room. As it was Saturday the next day Oliver was more than happy to agree. Rose told them to go on ahead as she had a few chores to take care of.

Oliver and Toby went in to the living room where Toby showed his guest his vintage model car collection. Oliver imagined that Toby was brushing up against him, but he couldn't be sure. If he was, perhaps it was just the drink talking. Trouble was, Oliver was so horny that any contact felt good. He had never been with another man, hadn't even considered it until now. He wondered what it would be like. All his buddies joked about it, making out like it was so disgusting, but was it really, he wondered.

And then Toby just came out and said it. He told Oliver he wanted to suck his cock. Oliver blushed a deep red and didn't know what to say. He stammered and flustered and didn't actually say anything. Suddenly the door opened and Rose walked in wearing a sexy see through nightie. Oliver's eyes were out on stalks. His cock, already a little hard at what Toby had said to him, now tented his chinos.

'I'll trade you.' said Toby. 'A piece of your cock for a piece of that ass.'

'It's a deal.' replied Oliver. He was so horned up he could hardly talk properly.

Toby wrapped his arms around Oliver in a bear hug and Rose came to join them. She pressed herself against Oliver's back and he could feel her pert tits pushing into him. This forced his hard cock to mash into Toby's firm flesh. Oliver's face and neck were still flushed; his senses were spinning, and he knew he was about to lose control. For a few short second he debated getting back in control but then decided to abandon himself to this sexy couple.

Oliver closed his eyes and felt Toby kissing his eyelids, his eyebrows, licking across his forehead and down his cheeks. It felt so incredibly good; he wondered why he had never asked his wife to try this. And then Toby's tongue entered his mouth. For the briefest moment Oliver resisted, reminding himself that Toby was another man, but then he abandoned himself to the urgency of that kiss. Never in his whole life had Oliver felt as wanted and desired as he did then. And after the low of being dumped it was what he needed.

Rose brought her fingers round Oliver's chest and started toying with his nipples through the fabric of his shirt. Her long nails soon teased them into erection. Oliver reached back and slipped his hand into Rose's panties. Her pubic hairs were damp and he soon found her love slot; it too was wet with desire. He slid a finger into her and groaned out loud. It was his first contact with pussy in ages and he had missed it sorely.

Toby now moved to undoing Oliver's shirt. He ran his hands across Oliver's smooth chest and belly before getting down on his knees and undoing his belt. Oliver looked down to see his chinos dropping to the floor. Toby pulled down his underpants and Oliver's beautiful cock and heavy balls swung free. Oliver was glad that Rose was standing behind him because he just about passed out at the first contact of cock and mouth. He had no idea that a blowjob could be so good. As his slender cut cock head slipped into that warm, experienced mouth he understood that he had been missing something all his life. Toby's used both hands to play with Oliver's large, smooth sperms sacks.

Rose ran her hands down Oliver's sides and he shivered with pleasure. It was as if every single inch of his skin was discovering sex anew. Each and every nerve tingled and was alive to possibility and pleasure. She played with his flat belly and then gripped the root of his man flesh as he husband worked on its tip. Oliver saw Toby's lips moved down the length of his cock until they met Rose's hand and his knees buckled. If Toby didn't stop soon he was going to blow.

'I'm really close.' Oliver whispered urgently.

Toby just increased the pressure of his sucking and second later Oliver blew off a heavy load of warm ball juice into Toby's mouth. Toby came off Oliver's cock licking his lips.

Rose moved over to kiss Toby. Oliver watched as Toby's hands dipped into her panties and she tugged at his clothes. They were both soon naked and Toby picked Rose up and lowered her onto his fat cock. The sight of that thick, reddish brown weapon disappearing into that slick pink pussy got Oliver hard again. He went and stood behind Rose and supported her weight so that Toby could fuck. Toby's low hanging balls bounced up and down on Oliver's cock head as he fucked. Rose leaned back into Oliver for a kiss. Kissing Rose was every bit as exciting as kissing her husband had been. Seeing the two of them being intimate like that got to Toby and he soon spunked off inside Rose's quim.

Rose lay down on the carpet and Oliver got down between her legs. Her pussy was one of the most beautiful he had ever seen: lovely full lips and delicate pink of colour with a pronounced clit. He buried his face in her golden curls and started giving her a tongue bath. She sighed as he worked his magic. As he moved down she opened her legs wider and he started really tongue fucking her. His heart was thumping in his chest, he was so turned on. And then suddenly he felt his butt cheeks being parted and a hot tongue diving in between. It was as if the world had stopped turning! Oliver squirmed his butt about Toby's face, trying to get as much tongue as possible. And at about the same time he started tasting something he had never tasted before. And from his first taste he knew he loved it.

As Oliver lapped at Rose's cunt Toby's spent fuck sauce started to coat his tongue. Oliver's hard cock just about exploded on the carpet. At that moment in time he was the happiest man in the world. He was eating delicious pussy that had an extra treat for dessert and he was being rimmed for the first time. When Oliver felt Toby's finger slide into him he knew he had to have more than that. He wanted to go all the way, try everything.

Oliver flipped himself over on his back and begged Toby to fuck him. He pulled Rose down onto his face and carried on eating her. Her hands teased her large nipples as she experienced one orgasm after another. Toby skilfully applied lubricant to Oliver's virgin ass. He worked his finger in and out for a good ten minutes until he felt Oliver was ready. And then he started feeding him that hard, thick dick.

Oliver let out a groan as his cherry was popped. He wanted to piss, he wanted it to stop, he wanted it to go on, all at the same time. Rose hopped off his face and started to kiss him. His groans were muffled by her sweet kiss. His asshole started to adjust to Toby's girth. His cock, which had deflated on first penetration, now started to get hard again. Toby took hold of it and started playing with it. The pain in Oliver's ass started to ease. After five minutes he started feeling really good and he opened his big thighs wider to allow Toby better access.

As Rose kissed him she worried his nipples. Oliver's asshole had taken on a life of its own and was madly in love with Toby's cock. His cock danced about in Toby's hand, threatening to blow at any minute. Oliver kept fighting off his orgasm, which only heightened the feelings in his cock and ass. And then Toby's increased the pace of his stroking, really fucking Oliver's hole now. He also increased his wrist action on Oliver's cock. Oliver felt breathless, dazed and disoriented. He knew something had to give.

Fortunately it was Toby. He let out an extremely loud roar as he shot his scalding man juice into Oliver's virgin ass. Seconds later Oliver's cock erupted, sending his hot jizz spraying through Toby's fingers and all over Rose's back. It took them many moments to come down from such an intense fuck high.

Oliver never made it home that night. When he woke the next morning with Toby on one side of him, and Rose on the other, he knew that he would get bi without his wife.

Re:dvd-rw

[Anonymous Coward]

"Quim?" "Worried his nipples?" Sounds like a dirty Redcoat to me. Keep your I-wanna-be-your-tampon smut in your own "public schools," Eton boy.

And then they'll change it on you.

[crovira]

Why should M$ change its pattern now?

Magnetic Damage?? Not quite...

[HamNRye]

Magnetic damage to CD's DVD's?? Hunh?? No, you HD is vulnerable to Magnetic damage because it is a magnetic storage medium.

The material that "holds" the data in most audio CD's is usually aluminum, and the way that the data is stored is through "pits" or tiny holes in the media. Other types of CD's use dye layers to
"expose" these pits, and still others use gold and other substrates to hold the data. As such, most CD's are basically immune to magnetic fields unless they are *extremely* powerful. There are
other types of CD's that do use magnetics (the Magneto-Optical CD for one) that could theoretically be affected, but it would need a
far higher strength magnetic field for a long period of time than you would probably have. It is improbable that you would come into
contact with these media in a music library (unless perhaps they are CD master pressings which are used to actually make the CD's at the
factory).

I have no Idea what you think a "True History" wold be on a non write once media type. Do you mean like a Journal in a File System?? Not needed due to the unchanging nature of the write once media. History as far as backups?? Well, write once means it can't be overwritten, so properly stored it could concievably hold the history of a file system much better than a Tape backup that gets overwritten every third week.

DVDr is great for archives that do not need to be accessed often, and are more convenient that using 7 CD's for the same purpose. Law and Real Estate firms can use them for storing scanned contracts, Graphic Artists can use them for storing large layouts, or an entire portfolio.

Goes to prove, don't believe everything you read on Slashdot.

Hammy

How do you rip them?

[ArchieBunker]

A buddy of mine bought a DVD-R drive and we decided to copy a dvd. Most movies are over 5gb but the media only holds 4.7gb. Even the bare VOB files were too big. I can't wait for the media to become CDR priced and then Blockbuster says "oh shit!"

Is this some kind of a trick question?

[Qbertino]

"Should I by a piece of computer equipment now or wait another 6 months?"

Honestly know:
What kind of answer do you expect on a question like that? In other words: A friend of mine has a saying: "The sky is blue, computers get cheaper." If a DVD-R is worth the money for you now, you need it and can afford it - then buy it. If not, don't. It's that simple.

DVD drives *are* economical

[millisa]

For data that has to be online but is not accessed by anyone and needs to be read only, a dvd drive *is* the cheaper solution. The cost of a 200 disc dual drive firewire dvd changer sits around $1500 (and they could be cheaper, this was the first price I found . . I don't remember the exact size of a dvd, but its somewhere around 4gig. 4*200=800. To get 800 gig out of hard drives, you'd need at least 6 160gig eide drives which would cost you about $225 each. This is $1300, and you'd have to get one of those 3 channel eide raid controllers . ..thats another 100 bucks. So, I either have fast access for lots of files I don't need fast access for, or for the same price I get something that I can make very cheap duplicates of to keep off site.

Re:DVD drives *are* economical

[millisa]

I should have done a little more searching before the initial post. The Powerfiles are nifty devices and they actually have a 200 disc single drive solution one for only a grand. It just seems like the idea solution for things like financial docs from previous years that are never going to change again. When the drives aren't in use, there aren't moving parts which should (hopefully) keep downtime from failed drives less likely. At 1000 bucks, even the added cost of the blank dvdrs (which is dropping) you'd have to use makes it a viable solution compared to a raid 5 of big eide drives.

Re:DVD drives *are* economical

[Anonymous Coward]

You gorgot that each DVD is $5 - $10 and that adds another $1,000 - $2,000 to your price tag.

Re:DVD drives *are* economical

[Anonymous Coward]

You've left out the cost of the DVD-R and the cost of the time some poor schmuck has to put in recording the discs in the first place. Also, if your target capacity is 1 TB, then you probably need multiple DVD-Rs if you want to have the data online this year.

Re:DVD drives *are* economical

[-tji]

For data that has to be online but is not accessed by anyone

I'm not sure what this means.. If noone needs to access it, it doesn't need to be online.

4*200=800. To get 800 gig out of hard drives, you'd need at least 6 160gig

Hmm.. 6 * 160 = 960; 5 * 160 = 800;
Or, 7 * 120GB = 840GB; $770.

So, I either have fast access for lots of files I don't need fast access for

Why do you assume that there is no need for fast access? Even if fast access is not an issue, how about concurrent access.. if a few people in the office need access to data on DVD's, that jukebox will be doing some major thrashing.

Also, you don't account for the cost of the DVD Media, or the time required to burn hundreds of DVD's.

FIRST OVULATIONSE

[GhostseTroll]

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Re:Magnetic Damage?? Not quite...

[RyanFenton]

I meant the only disadvantage [compared] to CD/DVD's in response to the first complaint, not that CD's were at all vulnerable to magnetics as HD's are.

The "true history" would mean that you get a real snapshot of what was on the drive at that time, each day's image kept on record. With source control, for instance, older versions may even be removed or altered. Having distant history kept on CD would also prevent damage from having files deleted long ago that weren't discovered until much later, and were outside source control. The problem with a rotation of HD's would be that you lose this long-term history.

:^)

Ryan Fenton

DVDs? Go for big EIDE HDDs instead.

[bluephone]

It'll save you money, and give you faster access and far more storage space, and if it's just docs, compress them for 3 times the space. You could store 300GB of documents on a 150GB single drive. A stack of DVDs equal in capacity alone would be larger than the HDD, not counting the DVD drive needed to read them.

BRITNEY NUDE FUCK, JAPANESE SCAT, NUDE CHILDREN !

[GhostseTroll]

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some advice

[jest3r]

I just went through the same thing ..

Drives that support DVD-R are the best way to go for quite a few reasons ..
1. The media is cheapest / easiest to find.
2. DVD-R is supported in most regular DVD player whereas DVD+R / RW amd DVD-RAM dont work in everything
3. The new Pioneer DVD-R drives are the same drives that Apple has been selling for years with their high-end systems (Superdrive) ..

I ended purchasing the Pioneer drive (A04) for my PC and havn't had a problem with it or the media anywhere ... and you can't beat the price for blank double sided media (9.4GB of storage) ..

Re:some advice

[Anonymous Coward]

That should have been titled "some bad advice"... Why not learn a little about the subject before pontificating?

1) The -R/-RW media is cheaper for now, but the difference for usable media isn't that high (the cheap disks aren't worth buying).

2) The compatibility of +R and -R in DVD players is equal. If one works, the other probably will also.

3) No, it isn't. Apple is selling the A03, the current is the A04.

You left out that the -R format can't read the position of the heads, but +R can. +RW disks can be used for random access file systems (not the fastest, but it works). This is why MSFT is including support for the +R/RW format in "longhorn" (but don't hold that against the format). If you want to hold something against one format, try the official websites for both. The +R/RW site works with non-IE browsers, the -R/RW won't (the front page will load, but try actually browsing through the site...). HP, which nominally supports Linux, is in the +R/RW camp. The HP DVD200e is working well under Linux for me, even if dvdrecord doesn't have pretty front ends like cdrecord yet... (on the good side, there isn't a LaCie finger snapping bug either...)

Re:some advice

[jest3r]

Try using +R / +RW in your Playstation2 ... good luck ..

DVD+R has not been approved by the DVD Standards Forum ..

DVD+RW compatibility is very low in DVD players ..

DVD+R media is expensive ..

DVD+R is being pushed by Sony and HP - who have both been known in the past to exclude features from their hardware that present a conflict of interest (ie. CDA extraction etc ..) and sleep with a certain M$ machine to get copy protection hardcoded everywhere they can ...

--

On the other hand DVD-R media is cheap .. compatibility is almost 100% .. and copy protection doesn't seem to be an issue (hey they work in playstation2 no problem)

Apple has been pushing this standard for years .. and yes is HAS been endorsed by the DVD standards forum ..

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[GhostseTroll]

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Higher purpose OT

[gomadtroll]

Debian Woody is available in DVD, being able to have one disk to rule them all is about the only advantage of DVD, i.e. not a good storage option unless you only have a few gb worth of data.

Greg

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[GhostseTroll]

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For your application, wait.

[mookie-blaylock]

I've had a DVD-R for nearly six months and after having used it, I think it's a technology that's best suited for a few things (IMO, of course):

1. Burning home video to DVD - this one's pretty obvious, given the Apple commercials earlier and the increasing market penetration of DVD players.
2. Backing up large amounts of data for archival purposes - This is a pretty common use -- archiving tons of Quark/Photoshop/etc documents that take up tons of space but don't need to be instantly retrieved.
3. Backing up MP3s - Since I have a large collection, this is the easiest way to prevent the nightmare scenario of having to re-rip a couple hundred CDs.

If I were in your situation, I'd go for a large drive -- 120GB drives are around $200, last I checked, which is a steal. Plus it's faster and generally less hassle. DVD blanks are at a minimum $5, but usually more expensive (RWs definitely are, I think Rs are around $5)

Alternatively, if you're looking for portable but large-volume storage, I'd definitely consider a firewire drive. (and depending on your needs, this is an excellent opportunity to justify the iPod purchase... ;) )

Recordable DVDs seem to be most convenient as a large-scale archiving medium; smaller stuff can go by the 'net or CD-R.

Re:For your application, wait.

[mookie-blaylock]

To clarify one small point I just noticed:

I wouldn't use DVD as an always-on instant access thing. They work better as larger, offline (but cataloged) media, IMO.

You are shopping at the wrong places

[millisa]

$.95 per disc + shipping in lots of 540. There might be better prices out there, but I don't think I'll ever fill 540 (at least not before the next big thing in storage media is cheap) of them so I haven't looked.

Re:You are shopping at the wrong places

[Rakarra]

I have a hard time trusting those disks. Why are those discs sold two-three times cheaper than almost any other brand? Would I literally be getting what I paid for?

Do the math...

[jrst]

As several have already mentioned--and at the risk of being redundant--here's some hard numbers on using cheap HD's vs. DVD-x.

Cost for HD solution: $5.11/Gb. Do a little trimming and you can get that to $4/Gb. Note that this is for a full-blown file server: dual procs; 1Gb DDR ECC; 1Gb ether; RAID 5 (details below).

Cost DVD-whatever solution: Using a very optimistic assumtion of $60/drive (with cheap controllers for the gaggle of drives you'll need, each of which gives you 4.7Gb online. That's almost $12.76/Gb.

Configuration/cost of HD file server (this is a bit dated; I'm sure you can do better)...

Mobo: Tyan Tiger 2460MP $212.00 x 1 = $212.00
Memory: Corsair 512Mb DDR2100 ECC reg $227.00 x 2 = $454.00
CPU: AMD Athlon MP 1800+ $228.00 x 1 = $228.00
Video: Generic: $125.00 x 1 = $125.00
Ethernet: 3Com 10/100/1000 3C996B-T $150.00 x 1 = $150.00
Sys disk: WD 1200JB $215.00 x 2 $430.00
CD/DVD: Generic $40.00 x 1 = $40.00
Floppy: Generic $10.00 x 1 = $10.00
Case: Enlight 8950 $160.00 x 1 = $160.00
Case: Rackmount kit $109.00 x 1 = $109.00
PS: ENERMAX550W $155.00 x 1 = $155.00
Controller: Escalade 7850 $505.00 x 1 = $505.00
Drive bays: Hot-swap Cages $245.00 x 3 = 735.00
Disks: Maxtor 160Gb $225.00 x 8 = $1,800.00
-----
Total: $5,113.00

Re:Do the math...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have two words for you:

Juke Box

Just buy more hard drives.

[Dr. Zowie]

At about $1.20/GB, hard drives are about the same price as CD media and about five times less expensive than DVD media. You can buy an NFS/SMB networked appliance complete with 1TB of disks for around $2,000 -- the price of a high end tape drive and certainly less than a DVD jukebox. And you get the terabyte of storage for free. And you can access it REALLY FAST because it's a hard drive array.

I just finished costing out a 3-petabyte database for a NASA project, and by far the cheapest way to back up data is to write them to hard drives, unplug the hard drives, and stick them in the closet. It's not an archival solution but archival media cost so much more and are so small compared to hard drives, it's ridiculous. For archival stuff we're holding out to see whether Blu-Ray takes off.

Re:Just buy more hard drives.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, even if only for the purpose of backing up data (not archiving), you may want to consider something more permanent than harddrive.

Modern harddrives are so no longer over-engineered and does not handle power spikes as well as older harddrives.

Suppose you make some backup to some harddrives and you put those harddrives in the closet. Three years later when you need some data from those harddrives you decide to plug them in into the same computer from three years ago. The probability of those harddisk getting fried will be higher due to the decrease in power quality from a 3-year old power supply.

Also, with higher magnetic capacity, the probabilty of an area to maintain its magenticity over time is decreased.

Thus, do not use harddrives if you are doing long-term backup (archiving) or if the data is really important. CD/DVD/Tape is still the most ideal digital archive.

OTOH, if you have a gazillion billion monkeys, you may consider employing them to type the data into papers. After all, papers is still the most reliable archive format known to mankind.

Re:They're nice, but not for you - But...

[Anonymous Coward]

Always back up your hard drive onto some sort of non-hard drive media. In the past decade, I've had two hard drives fail on me, and rescuing the data was a painful process.

DVD-R? That's what friends are for!

[Mr. Fusion]

I remember thinking a while back, "Why spend all that dough when you can borrow your friend's CD-R?" Back in the day, they were used a lot for copying mp3's, videos and backup utility purposes. But with the DVD-R, as salivating as it sounds, it's just not feasible to have that much stuff to copy for the average home user. Until a home market is really built up, prices are going to stay where they are.

The Apple is trying to push DVD-R technology with iDVD and DVD-R's on their new iMacs. I'm hope this helps drive the demand higher and the cost lower, because arguably Apple tends to be a trend setter, if not just creating fads.

-Mr. Fusion

DVD for "online" storage?

[Spazmania]

List price on a Maxtor 160gb drive $300. With the Linux-compatible UltraDMA card.

List price on a DVD burner plus 32 disks is, well, more than that. Figure an extra $50+ for each additional 5gb DVD you want online at once.

The base PC cost for either approach is about the same (less than $200 if you're using linux; don't exactly need a lot of CPU power for this app), so how many DVDs do you have to burn to break even versus storing them on a linux server with hard disk drives?

Answer: So many that the only reason to buy a DVD burner is that a DVD burner is a more interesting toy than a terabyte file server.

I went for DVD+RW

[e40]

I had to take the plunge due to my having many GB's of digicam generated photos. My DLT backups were just using too many tapes.

Some random thoughts:

The second generation DVD+RW drives are just coming out. The only one availasble is the HP 200i. Here's an overview of the 2nd gen drives, and here's an overview of the 1st gen drives.

The 2nd generation drives support DVD+R, many of the 1st do not.

TheNerds.net have the best media prices. I looked a lot and could find no better.

The HP drive, which I bought, comes with "drive letter access" software. Basically, a packet writer so you can just use the Windows explorer (yes, where I use the drive) to drag and drop files onto it. I have the suspicion that my McAfee VirusScan 4.5.1 stopped working when I installed the HP software. McAfee has not been able to figure out why their software is not working (service error 5011, which is a timeout of some sort).

I've been trying to author some DVD's, and I had good luck playing my DVD+RW's in my DVD player. I used a trial of Uleads DVD Workshop.

I held off until the 2nd gen drives were available, and was forced to purchase the HP because it's the only one out. I would have prefered the Philips DVDRW228 over the HP, but no one has the Philips drive in stock, that I could find.

So far, I'm happy, and I'm hoping HP will update their drivers and VirusScan will start working again.

Why are Apple DVD-R's the cheapest

[Anonymous Coward]

What I want to know, is why are Apple branded DVD-Rs the cheapest? $5 each compared to $7.50 and up for others. Is there something wrong with them, or did hell freeze over? Before you flame, I love Apple, I own a Mac, and I know that high quality, well thought out, and featurefull products come out of Apple. But let's all be honest, Apple is not known as a price beater! What gives?

Re:Why are Apple DVD-R's the cheapest

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you're smoking crack, I bought a spindle of (branded generic) DVD-R for $2.85 a pop @ 2x certified speed. And unspecified (silver no-label) Media was available for $1.50 a disc in 50 spindles, or $1.15 in 100 spindles.
True, my discs were obviously imports, from the funky pink labels and multiple language packaging.
But $5 a Disc is a premium price, not 'cheap.'

Two tangents that worry me

[Chuu]

I also have been looking hard at DVD-R/+R as a backup solution, but two things worry me greatly.

#1. I want to be able to access this material 5-10 years from now. With CD-R's, if you want to protect your data we now know that you are best off with Tayio Yuden or Kodak. With DVD mediums though . . . no one has any clue what the real life on these discs are, especially since most are apparently using a different dye then CD-R's do (if you've never seen a DVD-R, on most the bottom is a light blood red).

#2. Cost. CD-R's are pretty much the cheapest backup medium now. DVD-R's are still fairly expensive, but the third option is what intrigues me. IDE drives are easily available now for $1/gig. A hot swappable IDE drive bay from Vantec runs you about $40 retail. I have seriously considered just buying IDE drives for backup, and using the hot swappable bay to change them. Much easier, much faster. What makes me nervous about this is the 'all your eggs in one basket' problem, but from my experience with hard drives, if they survive the initial part of their 'bathtub' failure cure, they are good for years.

Re:Two tangents that worry me

[shoppa]

With CD-Rs, if you want to protect your data we now know that you are best off with Tayio Yuden or Kodak.

Unfortunately, Kodak is getting out of the CD-R business. Which is a damn shame - if anyone knows about archival properties of dyes and plastics, it's them, as they've been doing similar stuff for over a hundred years.

Right now if you go to shop@kodak on Kodak's home page you can get some "closeout" deals on their remaining stock. Most of the online wholesalers have already run out of existing stock.

I think Mitsui is planning to remain in the high-quality CD-R media business for a little while longer.

Re:Two tangents that worry me

[roybadami]

DVD-R's are still fairly expensive

Unbranded DVD-R prices are crashing as some of the big CD-R plants switch to DVD-R production. Eg, in the UK, the cheapest DVD-R blanks available from www.cdr-by-mail.co.uk are 80 pence each including VAT, in quantities of 25. (For US readers, that's about $1 plus tax) Unfortunately DVD+R discs are hard to come by (and expensive), but no doubt that will change if the format goes mainstream. However this difference in media price may be enough to kill DVD+R. By the time the big CD-R manufacturers find it's worth their while to move into the DVD+R business, DVD-R may already have won on the desktop.

Re:Two tangents that worry me

[Kyril]

Keep eggs out of one basket by rotating among three drives. At any one time, one drive will have this week's full backup, another will have last week's full backup, and a third will have this (or last, if you're in the middle of your full backup) week's incremental backups. Depending on how much you back up and how much it compresses (and on how big your backup drives are) you may be able to retain older generations without even resorting to buying more drives.

As for your cost figures, I can do better on the racks at www.cablemakers.com ($20 for a bay/tray pair, $14 for each extra tray, for a total of $48 for one bay, three trays), but not quite as good as $1/GB on the hard drives. I see $95 for an 82G Deskstar 120GXP at Hyper Micro, which makes $1.16/GB, or you can get it for $93 or so elsewhere. I see Hyper has some 80 minute CD-Rs for $35/100; this is only $0.50/GB before shipping costs.

One thing I might look into if I had a number of machines to back up like this and doing it across the network wasn't an option, would be to see if one of those removable bays fits in an external USB-IDE enclosure, which can be had for less than $100 at www.hypermicro.com...

(Disclaimer: I've bought the abovementioned racks from www.cablemakers.com, and they work okay. I've never used Hyper Micro, but they have decent prices and a decent rep at www.resellerratings.com. Also, I've never actually figured out how I'd want to do this kind of backup from Windows...)

Double bladed lightsaber

[Phattypants]

DVD-R is neat. You probably want it. DVD technology is so cheap and getting cheaper. How do you justify buying one? That's hard because most IT employers don't seem to be hiring people in IT any more. Many people are wasting their time and money on higher IT education when a stable position will not be forthcoming. Therefore how do you pay for such a thing when the most important thing to do is find a job, any job, to keep a roof over your head, and to feed your family. Needless to mention the never ending debt that piles up when you are stuck looking for gainful employment and your nest egg turns out to be as fragile as an easter egg.

Maybe the next paycheck will purchase this DVD-R technology, but probably not because of the mortgage payments or the fact that you can easily spend and equal amount of money on gas for six months. Better win the lottery or cross your fingers if you want that new toy movie recorder.

Don't worry, this doesn't really apply to you at all! You probably got a job and can pay your bills. Cherrish what you have because it has been taken from so many.

Where is the pot of gold? The ninjas of plutocracy have stolen it away during the night and the daimyo is pleased.

Peace to all.

Re:Double bladed lightsaber

[Anonymous Coward]

what the fuck is wrong with you, stupid piece of shit? you like to ramble on about the hard life of the IT worker in america? Go back to fucking russia, you cocksucker.

Re:Double bladed lightsaber

[kesuki]

Of course we all know that a real geek faced with the situation of buying a New DVD-r drive, or buying groceries, would of course opt for the DVD-r drive, Afterall, once you have the DVD-r you can stand outside the blockbuster with a 'will burn DVDs for food' ;)

Focus on Media -- not

[fm6]

This discussion, though productive, is kind of going down the wrong track. It seems to boil everything down to the question of storage media, and that's just a minor point.

If you have this big archive you need to keep online, "Should I use DVD-R?" is the wrong question. DVD-R is just a kind of media, and there are many choices here. The basic issue is "What kind of application is this, and what is there to support it?"

The answer to that is that is that this is a Hierarchical Storage Management application. I won't pretend to be an expert on HSM, but there's a lot of different HSM technology. The choice of media here (and there are lots of alternatives to DVD-R and CD-R) is probably less important than jukeboxes or other robot hardware you have to buy to manage them, and the software you have to buy to manage to hardware.

Not...

[Kindaian]

I don't know, but anything that has a "DVD" signal makes me creaps... and is crap...

At least until the content is published as it is nowadays (encripted, zone protected, copyrighted and all - i'm not against copyrights and provisions for protecting the copyrights mind... just that they just should work as they are expected... and DVD's don't work as I EXPECT)...

I will keep in the CDR-RW for now... DVDR/DVDRam will be here somewhere someday... eventually... but as i don't publish DVD's, i don't need them for producing content... and as the published content is not usable by me [God know why... mayhappen he doesn't support copyright!]...

Cheers...

Not much protection

[frovingslosh]

If I included code in the program to detect a CD-R drive and, if found, attempt to overwrite the TOC on the CD, could this actually work as a "copy protection" technique?

As a protection system, this doesn't work - it would take most hackers just few seconds to figure out what happened, and about the same amount of time for word of it to circle the globe on the Internet. The work around is obvious for most users - write the CD on the CD-RW drive and then run it from a CD or DVD drive. However, if the user doesn't leave the new disc open for further writing when making the copy, you can't write on it anyway.

One has to wonder though, why there are all the lame hacks to attempt copy protection for data CD's (games mostly) when the right "fix" would seem to be to simply determine if the media ID matches that of a CDR or CDRW media rather than the original pressed media. Can't any of the protection programmers figure out how to get this basic information from the drive?

Re:Not much protection

[Anonymous Coward]

One has to wonder though, why there are all the lame hacks to attempt copy protection for data CD's (games mostly) when the right "fix" would seem to be to simply determine if the media ID matches that of a CDR or CDRW media rather than the original pressed media. Can't any of the protection programmers figure out how to get this basic information from the drive?

And then what happens to my Fair Use rights to make a backup copy of that disc in case it gets scratched or damaged. Oops, that disc got scratched, guess I have to go buy the game again. There goes another $50 - $70.

Re:Not much protection

[frovingslosh]

I'm not advocating copy protection, just questioning why it's done in such lame ways when there is information on each media that identifies if it's CDR or CDRW or not.

Re:Not much protection

[electronerd]

Oh, well. It won't matter soon anyway, once the boneheads in Washington ban the 'copy' command on computers for information of any type.

Re:Not much protection

[klingens]

Yyour right "fix" wouldnt work for the following reasons:
You can decide if its a CD-R by reading out the so called ATIP-field where the manufacturer of the CD-R and other things are recorded. Pressed CDs are lacking this field, and you can only read it with a CD-burner, not with CD-ROM readers.
Some protections (like Safedisc2) even check for it. The problem is: CloneCD, the #1 software used to make copies comes with a small program for your systray which prevents the copy protection from getting the ATIP-field data. So copy-protection is back to square one as usual.

Re:Not much protection

[Alan Partridge]

nah, the developer usually will replace the media as you have purchased a license to use the software rather than the physical medium itself. I had a fire a few years back and lost a considerable amount of software - all the developers I contacted (except MS) replaced my discs once I supplied my registration details, one of them (Equilibrium) sent me a MUCH newer version, too!

Re:Not much protection

[Prof.Phreak]

Imagine: You drag and drop a file, and you get a dialog box: "Are you sure you want to do this? Y/N", you click yes, "Are you allowed to do this? Y/N", you again click yes, "Type in your license number that allows you to do this: [ ]", you click continue, and yet another dialog box comes up "Please logon to the Internet for us to verify your license number.", and then after 10 minutes of wasted time, you get: "Sorry, your license to drag and drop this file has expired, please renew. Would you like to renew now? Y/N", "Enter your credit card number: [ ]", and so on...

Fun future, heh?

Re:Not much protection

[kesuki]

Actually $5-10 and an hour on hold on techsupport will let you RMA most software if you have the CDs and they're identifiable. Many smaller companies will replace discs lost in a fire, as long as you've registered with them. Almost all fires (including that bic lighter they sell at the c-store) exceed the ignition point of the polymers used in CD media, so the only evidence is going to be shrivled and chared CD metal layers, usually burried in the ash.
And FYI only scratches that gouge more than 50% of the way through the polymer or penetrate the data layer actually cause problems. Carnuba wax is a Great CD restorer, costs $3-5 a container, and is available at any Finer retailer of car waxes. places like k-mart and walmart seem to carry turtle wax, which is generally less effective at filling scratches, and many of their product lines contain harsh abrasives, which is a no-no for trying to repair a CD.

Re:Not much protection

[electronerd]

You forgot the box that says "Please wait while the entire contents of your hard drive, including all data deleted in the last year, is uploaded to the Microsoft marketing and enforcement server..."

120 gig / $100?

[frovingslosh]

I've yet to see any deals near this price point. Please suggest a source in this range.

Re:120 gig / $100?

[JPriest]

You could if you bought it used, as for a new drive you can pick up a 120GB 7200RPM IBM HDD from neweggg.com for $140. It's not $100 but it's still a decent deal.

Re:120 gig / $100?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I'd like to see that - cheapest I've seen is abour $140 for 80Gig 5400rpm.

When big drives come to a buck a gig, I'll buy one, till then, I'll RAID my 40Gig'ers! ;o)

Re:120 gig / $100?

[PsychoElf]

dont know about a 120gb for $100, but i can get a WD 100gb 7200 for 129.99 brand new retail. prices on hard drives at CompUSSR dropped recently

For me, it's the speed.

[ruiner13]

I've heard that it takes an ungodly long time to burn a full dvd-r. I think it would be better to wait until they are up to more like 12x DVD.

Re:For me, it's the speed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, 12x DVD will be like 16 MB a sec. You stupid fucking idiot, 1X DVD is not the same as 1X CD. Fucking homo. It takes about 30 minutes to burn a full DVD at 2x.

Re:For me, it's the speed.

[cybercrap]

yes but it still takes a hour to burn a dvd at 1x. That is about the same time it takes a cdr to burn a cd at 1x. It is slow as balls, and it sux. Also the media that is out right now also sux. I mean the bulk packs are seriously lacking in quality. Also there is no point in getting a dvd burner now because of all the - and + garbage going on. The only place in town that even sells - anymore is frys, everybody else is going to the + standard. Sure - might be better now, but it prolly won't be in the future.

Re:For me, it's the speed.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Sure - might be better now, but it prolly won't be in the future. "

And what ever doesn't become obsolete?? Are you the guy still tooling around in a 486DX since the "next best thing" is ALWAYS just around the corner?

Fact: DVD-R media can be had for as little as $1.67 each....hell...even cheaper if you look around.

Fact: DVD's I have made on my Pioneer 104 play in almost ALL newer DVD players I put them in.

Fact: 2X DVD burning is NOTHING like 2X on a CD-R. I can burn 4.7 gigs to a disc in just over 30 minutes. Calculate how long it would take you to burn 4.7 gigs to CD-R's.

"yes but it still takes a hour to burn a dvd at 1x. That is about the same time it takes a cdr to burn a cd at 1x. It is slow as balls, and it sux."

Yes....but in your hour you get 650 to 700 MB....if I were to burn at 1X in my 104, I would get 4.7 gigs in that same hour....but at 2X I get my 4.7 gigs in a hair over 30 minutes.

You can wait forever and never buy anything. The next best thing is ALWAYS just around the corner. After everything is all said and done...you will have a $300.00 drive that will serve the purposes it is intended for just perfectly.

Re:For me, it's the speed.

[kesuki]

a 2x DVD-r is about equiv to a 14x CD-r bit for bit in copying speed. if you had a 12x DVD-r now you'd have a whole slew of buffer underrun errors... you'd need a good 64MB (~4 seconds) of buffer to handle the occasional Windows Hicup... not to mention anything below a 7200 rpm drive is going to have a hard time pulling a sustained 16 MB/sec the best drives out there can only do in the 20-25 MB/sec sustained.
There is however another way to look at it. a 4.5 GB DVD-r can fit ~2 hours of mpeg-2. that means at '1x' speed it's the equivalent of a 2x high-speed dub for copying movies. So no, 1x and 2x are not slow by any measure. In fact, 1x is the fastest drive you can connect to usb 1.1 with 2x or better you have to go to firewire or usb 2.0 (for external connectivity). If 'half an hour' is too long for your to record a 2 hour movie, then maybe you shouldn't own any kind of VCR like device, as they're all restricted to 1x (.5x DVD speed) recording from broadcasts.

Near-line vs. backups vs. archival...

[trims]

There are really three seperate categories you get into once you're considering moving data from primary storage. You seem to be asking about the first, but I'll cover all three for completeness.

Near-line (a.k.a secondary storage)

Primary storage almost always consists of the fastest hard drives directly attached to your data source (file server, SAN, workstation, whatever). Historically, near-line has been some medium where the end-user could access the data required in the same manner as primary storage, but at a slower rate. The old solution used to be either a different server using older/slower disks, or an RW optical jukebox. Near-line storage almost always is very high read-usage, but the occasional write isn't unlikely, so you generally want a media that can support writes.

Backups (a.k.a. save-your-ass storage)

Backups are a place to temporarily save data in case of an emergency. The criteria generally don't include re-writability, but do concern with ease-of-access in the case of a recovery. In addition, Backups expire - after a certain period of time, the data is no longer available. Tape has been the choice for this for a long time, with it's high storage capacity and low cost. Higher-end solutions have been the "on-line snapshot" capabilities of SAN and NAS devices (essentially to make a static mirror of data on extra storage space). CD-R and even floppies have been popular for the low-end. Whatever the choice is, the main concern is reliability, and the ability to backup the data within a set time window.

Archival (a.k.a save it for the history books)

This is a big one, and one frequently misunderstood. The two major criteria for Archival purposes are Survivability, and Retrievability. That is, the solution has to make sure it does NOT degrade with time (i.e. it doesn't introduce errors after sitting on the shelf for 20 years) and that you will realistically have a method to retrieve the data over it's lifetime (e.g. are they still going to have devices that can read your data media in 30 years?) Magnetic tape is a BAD THING for Archival purposes, despite its common usage. It fails on both tests. Mastered CDs (NOT CD-R) and Optical Disks are generally the preferred method here.

In the modern world, I would recommend a backup server using RAIDed IDE drives for Near-line these days. The relative cheapness of IDE drives, combined with the newer IDE RAID cards provides an unbeatable cost/storage/reliability ratio (far superior to CD, DVD, Tape, or Optical Disk), and it's by far the easiest to maintain and use, since it's simply another fileserver. Don't scrimp, however. A good one of these should probably run $3-$4k with 8-10 100GB drives, redundant power supply, and hardware RAID.

Backups are a bit more complex, and the variables make a one-size-fits-all recommendation unrealistic. And you didn't ask for that anyway, so I'm not going to make one. :-)

Archival really means you want to keep (or are required to keep) the data around, but don't need access to it much. If you don't intend to keep the data for more than 15-20 years, you can probably get away with CD-R. Otherwise, look into having your data pressed onto CD (i.e. real mastered CDs). They last a good 100 years or so, and it's relatively cheap. In either case, you want multiple copies of each disc, and the good-old CD-jukebox is your friend.

As you imply (and other posters have noted), DVD-R/RAM/RW/+RW isn't quite stabilized yet. Despite their larger capacity, I wouldn't change the above recommendations, other than replacing CDs with DVD when it settles down - DVD mastering isn't anywhere as cheap as CD mastering is (and if you do master DVDs, make sure that you specify UNENCRYPTED DVD so you don't get CSS put on accidentally).

As a side note: there's a whole industry built around Hierarchical Storage Management (HSM) which deals with automatically moving data between the various storage levels, and recovering it as need be. It's a bit beyond what you describe you're looking for, but look at one of the big UNIX storage players' (Sun, HP, IBM, EMC) site for a whitepaper on it. They're a good read for concepts which you can apply, even if you're not using their multi-million-dollar hardware/software packages.

Best of luck.

-Erik

Re:Near-line vs. backups vs. archival...

[Anonymous Coward]

you stupid piece of shit. you recommend that archival backups be done on mastered CDs? have you ever looked at the price of mastering ONE SINGLE, SOLITARY, CD? obviously not or you your would know it is super expensive. If you had a TB of data to archive, you're gonna spend +$1000 PER 650mb to archive it? you're fucking crazy and have obviously never researched any of the shit you're spouting here. are you 13 years old? you act like it.

Re:Near-line vs. backups vs. archival...

[io333]

real mastered CDs). They last a good 100 years or so

Uh... I don't think so:

ahhhhh!!!!

Re:Near-line vs. backups vs. archival...

[sjames]

That's a good summary.

It's sad these days that traditional near-line solutions (CD/TAPE/DVD) jukeboxes are inevitable more expensive than just expanding the online storage.

It seems that pricing dictates going from 3 tiers to 2 tiers. A very large online storage saved to DVD or CD (without jukebox) for archival backup, along with software that allows for extended incremental backup. If the online is RAID, the archival backup decently unlikely to ever be called upon, so can be handled with at most a couple of 4 disc changers for burning new data. If a reload ever does need to happen, that's what unskilled labor is for (consider a temp agency).

Given that, I don't see the point in a jukebox at all (other than it looks cool). If more enterprises realized this, their price would fall in line I suspect.

Re:Near-line vs. backups vs. archival...

[Anonymous Coward]

> you stupid piece of shit. you recommend that archival backups be done on mastered CDs?

He is right. What media are you going to use when archiving really important data ? We're not talking about your 40Gb+ collection of porn, here, just important digital documents.

1000$ for 650mb, which means about 200 000 pages of text is not expensive.

Btw, did I mentionned that you are an asshole ?

Pioneer DVR-A04 cd and dvd burner

[Danny Rathjens]

Is anyone successfully using this model with linux? or DVR-104?(I can't figure out the difference)
At only $289 for cd and dvd burning it seems to be the best deal out there.

Re:Pioneer DVR-A04 cd and dvd burner

[bani]

DVR-104 is the OEM version -- bare drive. The A04 is the retail box model with (useless) software bundle.

Works fine with Linux and dvdrtools.

Re:Pioneer DVR-A04 cd and dvd burner

[Eric Smith]

I'm using the DVR-A03 with Red Hat Linux 7.3. It works fine for burning DVD-ROMs, but as others have pointed out, there appears to be no available Linux software for mastering DVD-Video. I expect that a DVR-A04 should work fine.

Red Hat 7.3 includes a package called "dvdrecord", which is a fork of cdrecord that has been patched for use with DVD-R drives. (The official cdrecord program does not include DVD-R support because the author sells that as a commercial product.) If you're not using RH 7.3, you can build dvdrecord yourself from source: dvdrtools.

Thus far I'm just using them as if they were higher-capacity CD-ROMs, using the ISO 9660 file system. It seems to work fine. There is some early UDF support in mkisofs, but I haven't yet tried it.

The TCO of IDE-RAID is much better

[egarland]

My company did a bunch of research into the tradeoffs between DVD based optical storage and IDE RAID NAS devices. At all levels of scaling the hard drives were cheaper to buy and cheaper to maintain. RAID is a "turn it on and forget about it" technology. DVD single drives are too small to be of any real use and the robots and their software are very expensive to buy and maintain.

Hard drives on the other hand are very cost effective:

Under 1TB $1000-$1500

For low to medium sized storage you can buy a 3ware or Promise RAID5 controller and put some drives into a computer with a server case that can hold them. A 4 drive RAID5 array with 160GB drives is 480GB usable and will fit in almost any machine. A 6 drive RAID 5 array is 800 GB usable but you need to work a little harder to find a case which will let you hook them all up.

1-10 TB $4,500-$45,000

If you need something a little more scalable you can use Promise UltraTrak SX8000 or RM8000s. They are OS independent and extraordinarily easy to setup. Each one has the ability to store over 1.1 TB when full of 160GB drives and you can hook many of them up to the same machine easily. The connect to a server with LVD-SE SCSI and appear to the machine as a single drive. Using these you can easily store 1-10 TB of data and keep it all online all the time.

10+ TB $45,000+

If you want to go over 10 TB the UltraTraks can do it but you should really use multiple head units. You can put 12 RM80000's in a 42 U rack with room for a 2U head unit and a 3U UPS (with 1U left over). This would make for about 14 TB per rack. Then you just install multiple identical racks to scale the storage.

Since you are looking at optical you are probably looking for a system in the 1 TB range. For this I would recommend a single UltraTrak. The purchase price will be a fraction of what a optical library would cost, the reliability will be better, and the maintenance will be cheaper. Maintenance of these things is very simple: when a drive fails the alarm goes off. Buy a new drive and put it in. That's it!

Optical may not look that bad when you look at the purchase price and the idea of a robot is cool but you also have to look at the cost of maintaining a machine like that in terms of time and money. When you add it all up, hard drives win every time.

-Eric

Re:The TCO of IDE-RAID is much better

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to think electricity is free...

Don't buy that DVD-R

[uncoveror]

There are still competing standards, the price is still high, and drives using blue and violet lasers will soon make today's DVD seem like zip disks. Save your money.

Have you looked at Network Appliance's products?

[Twiki]

My company is currently using one of the NetApp filers for a data warehousing solution, and large file storage. Very scalable, very cool.

Check 'em out here.

Buy a 60 gb hard disk instead.

[HiyaPower]

DV-R is nice to keep stuff in archive off site, but even with the current price of about $5 for a blank, it will take you $75 of blanks (15 DV-Rs each having 4 gb each) to get the amount of storage that you would get on a 60 gb drive for the same price. Faster access, less time to create the media, etc. Put it in one of the cheap 3.5 inch firewire enclosures, and it will even take up less space than 15 DV-Rs.

Personally, the solution I have gone for is to put together a 1/2 terabyte server on my network. For the cost of $80 for a case, $80 for a motherboard, $80 for a cpu chip, $80 for memory, $640 for 8 60 gb disk drives (at $80 ea), and $80 bucks for 2 more ide controllers, you can get a ~1/2 terabyte server for $1040. Run a Linux and put up Samba and Appleshare for free. Super high performance, not. But enough to do storage of infrequently used files and backup space.

If you can afford to wait...

[Bora Horza Gobuchol]

If your company can afford to delay the purchase of a new storage system I would urge you to consider the up-coming blue-ray high-definition DVDs. This advance is the primary reason why I have not bought any form of DVD media yet. A double-layered HD-DVD will clock in at 50 gigabytes - depending on your storage needs, that might well be enough to contain all your archived documentation, with no need for a jukebox solution.

For data storage, this will be a godsend - and the prospect of a 1080i high-defintion movie on a single disk has me salivating.

The problem with the format, as I see it, is twofold:

• When can it be introduced? HD-DVDs for data can't be introduced soon enough - but the entertainment companies will logically want to wait until "standard" DVDs thoroughly saturate the market before introducing HD-DVD.
• Will the MPAA and its ilk keep their hands off it? With a good projector, screen and viewing environment 1080i will be within spitting distance of a true theatrical experience. Naturally, the MPAA will be terrified of this experience being compromised, and at the prospect of HD films being distributed on the web (on the other hand, the sheer file size of HD movie files might preclude that - I don't see cable companies increasing their user bandwidths anytime soon.)

When can it be expected? Most bets are on 2004 / 2005. Maybe they'll learn from the DVD-R / DVD+RW / DVD-RAM fiasco to stick to a common read-write standard, tho I wouldn't put money on it. If they do decide to fight, it might be 2006 before the standard is settled - which is a real long wait, in computer terms.

Anyway, my $0.01 (the Canadian exchange rate sucks)

"Don't critisize. Create a better alternative."

Re:If you can afford to wait...

[cybercrap]

You go ahead and watch your shatty 1080i and I'll sit back and bask in my 2x better 1080p. 1080i is todays standard because it is cheap to produce and line double to. 1080p will be tomorrow's standard.

It's about time.

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean they finally caught up with Linux's LVM?

Re:It's about time.

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux didn't have working LVM in 1999, sorry.

Re:Magnetic Damage?? Not quite...

[Kindaian]

But they are very prone to scratch damage... both the pressed and the burned ones (burned are more susceptible).

Read the "performance" data from the suppliers with a "huge" amount of salt...

CD's where supposed to last at least 10 years... but place it in a cd from time to time and if you still can play it 4 years later... then... you are lucky!

Cheers...

P.S.- I personnally prefer all my content digital... that way i can make as much backups as i need...

As for long term storage... try paper... if produced properlly, it can stand the test of time... several centuries!

Try that with any "digital" media...

seek problems

[johnty]

won't we get some of those? especially with the spin-up time of these drives

Re:The time is right? No way.

[deathcow]

With the Pioneer A03 and A04, you can --
(1) make DVD's that play on your settop box
(2) burn 4450 megs of file onto a platter.

What more do you need? I love my A03.

Maybe, but could you help me first?

[Anonymous Coward]

How to I operate my iMac? I figured out how to turn it on, and I know how to point and click. But when I point my finger at the screen and say "click", nothing happens!

I need to know soon because my brother will be mad if I don't get it figured out so he can play his Nintendo cartridges on it.

I think it was time to puchase one...

[newerbob]

...about a year ago! What are you waiting for?

Seriously, there's still some catchin-up to do with software. It's like in the early days of CD-ROM burners, where it took *skill* to make a good disk.

And it takes a l-o-n-g time to transcode video from, say, Video Camera format to DVD MPEG2 format. Be prepared to have your PC crank for the better part of an afternoon.

DVD+RW on the cheap

[Sean Clifford]

I had decided to wait for blue ray, but hey - I got lucky. Strolling a lane in Wal-Mart, I happened across a shelf with a couple of Philips DVD+RW burners for $74.88. The little yellow smiley face must have been on crack or something - it's about $400 off apiece.

Anyway, the burners are sweet. It takes about a half hour to toast a DVD, but hey - it's 4.7GB per side. The media is kina expensive, more than twice CD-R for storage, more if you do the +RWs. Teamed with a Plextor, I'm covered.

It's really not economical to put my TV shows on DVD yet. Besides, most are coming out now in DVD collections and I'd rather have those than go to the trouble of archiving. But for mp3 they're sweet. Do you have any idea how many mp3s fit on a DVDR?

DVDs hold a lot of promise for storage. I'm hopeful that BlueRay will be cheap (and uncrippled) enough to be ubiquitous. Still, it's obvious that DVD will not be the format of choice for backups. Already, IDE drives outpace the storage capacity of DVDs, tape, and other backup mediums. Storing an image on a network drive still seems the best way.

I have one - depends on what you want to do

[Rui del-Negro]

Unless you want to make video DVDs, don't buy one (at least not yet). Not only are the drives quite expensive, but the disks are also more expensive (per MB) than CD-Rs. Buy a good CDRW drive (DVD recorders are not very good at recording CDs).

And 4.3 GB really aren't a lot. It's not even enough to store one hour of DV video (13 GB).

In a few months or a year you will have a) much cheaper DVD-Rs and b) new optical discs, likely to be over 10 times bigger than DVD-Rs.

On the other hand, if you do want to make video DVDs, make sure you buy a drive that will record in a format compatible with most readers. Mine is a Pioneer (DVR-A03) and so far all discs have worked fine in all set-top players I have tried. From what I've heard, DVD-RW and DVD+RW have problems with a lot of players (especially old ones, but also some recent models). There is a nice list of formats and players here:

VCD Help DVD players compatibility list

Also, most "consumer" DVD authoring programs are crap. Be ready to pay at least an extra 1000 dollars / euros on software if you want to be able to do any interesting stuff like multiple audio tracks, animated menus, etc..

To do the MPEG-2 encoding, I use TMPGEnc (slow but has the best quality, IMO). I wrote a small guide that you can find here.

RMN
~~~

Buy a Mac. ?

[snoozebutton]

Buy a Mac, it WILL make things easier for you.

The SuperDrive burns every format *I* would ever need, and either iDVD (for low-end, or consumer) or DVD Studio Pro (pro) will make your DVD-burning life a lot easier for movie DVDs..

For data DVDs, OS X will burn 'em for you right in the Finder, no other app needed!

(Toast Titanium also works great for this)

That's it, that's all.

This early adopter of DVD-RAM is sorry...

[dpbsmith]

A couple of years ago, Apple started offering it as an option. At exactly the same time, a number of PC vendors did. One of my colleagues at work ordered a new PC and it just "came with" DVD-RAM. So, I figured it was going to be standard and I ordered it on my own Mac.

The media started out being very expensive--$40 for 2.6 gig. Now the price of the media is reasonable, but the format is all but orphaned.

I'm using DVD-RAM as my backup medium, but I have to wonder whether any future machine I buy will actually be able to read the things.

So, I jumped in too soon and I'm sorry.

Is it time for DVD-R, or DVD+R? Don't ask me. I thought it was time for DVD-RAM and I was wrong.

Oh, well, at least I bought a ZIP drive when a colleague was buying some kind of magneto-optical 135-megabyte device that was faster/cheaper/better/orphaned...

FYI ... blanks are just US$1.20...

[Sleepy]

A number of folks here are claiming DVD-R blanks are $5 each.

I've been buying them from esbuy.com, for about $1.20 each.

If you search pricewatch.com, you can find the DVR-104 (OEM version of DVR-A04) Pioneer drive for $260.

The burn speeds are decent (beats DVD-RAM!), and it's compatible with (nearly all) DVD Video players that are less than a year old.

Re:Magnetic Damage?? Not quite...

[Anonymous Coward]

> As for long term storage... try paper... if produced properlly, it can stand the test of time... several centuries!

So, can we take it you'll be (1) lobbying Congress to store backups on suitable acid-free papertape, and (2) investing in some *really* bargain-basement papertape equipment companies :-).

Error 101: not enough data to process request

[obarthelemy]

Could you make your question more precise ?:

- what data do you want to store (video, databases, images...)
- what do you use it for ? Which client programs (and, in which OS ) need the data ? Which OS do the server run on ?
- what is the amount of data you need to store ? (to start with, and periodic updates thereafter)
- how long to you need to archive it ?
- what is the access pattern (frequent access to all and any data, just in case the Hd fails, if we have an audit...). Derived question: do you want full automatic acces to your backups, or is a long delay or even Restore operation OK ?
- is what you are looking for part of a multi-tier data system, or just a plain backup system ?
- what is your budget ?
- what human ressources do you have, both in terms of time and competence ?
- if you're investigating DVD, what is your take on the more classic media (HD, Tape, CD) ? What do you see are their strong and weak points ?

Best regards, Olivier

DVD-R.....WHY?

[Chanc_Gorkon]

For what you want, you'd be MUCH better off with a SAN and some sort of silo. DVD's have a tendency to grow feet. Security wise, I'd never do a DVD jukebox. It's too easy for stuff to go bye bye. The san can be backed up by a IBM silo running Tivoli or a StorageTek unit or something similar. For those who say that tape technology has not kept up, you can tell they are PC centric and never look beyond it. I have Magstar tapes that are 7 gigs uncompressed and a library that holds tons of them (around 100-200 at least...if not more). Also, I would rather not have 2 TB tapes. Too easy for you to loose something if it's only on one tape (of course you could backup multiple times, but your goig to do that anyway right?). The nice thing about the IBM/Tivoli units is when you run out of space, you can just get another silo, and more SAN. Your existing Tivoli server can still be used to back things up. Some say well, tapes have legs too....yeah, but it's MUCH harder for someone to swipe one if the door's locked and it's in a card accessed data center. I know the DVD jukes could be locked too, but it's much more tempting to try to steal something more commonly available. How easy is it to find a Magstar tape drive that a home user/hacker could afford?? DVD Juke's are not that great of a idea. I can't guarantee reliablity or data retrieval on a DVD. On a SAN I more readily can do this(and the SAN would be much faster to boot!). And if the data doesn't change, you can always have the users mount the drives in a read only status. Then they can't over write the files.

Re: Pioneer DVD drives

[King_TJ]

Ehh... about choice number 1 in your list; only if you're REAL lucky.

I originally had a Phillips DVD+RW drive, and quickly learned it wasn't compatible with anything but itself, and some of the DVD-ROM drives in computers out there. I returned it promptly.

Then, I read all the hype about the Pioneer A03 (and now A04) being the only sensible choice, since the write-once DVD-R media it burns is much more compatible with the average set-top DVD player.

I bought my A03, and while the drive seems to be great quality -- I haven't had any luck making a DVD movie that plays on anything other than a computer's DVD-ROM drive.

My Sony Playstation 2 makes a pretty valiant effort to play the DVD-R movies - but they seem to start getting read errors as you near the end of the disc. This is really frustrating when you're watching a 90 min. long or so movie, and right when it hits the action-packed climax - it stutters and quits playing with an "invalid media" message on the screen!

I also own a Samsung set-top DVD player (the model 812). It refuses to play anything on DVD-R discs I create. It seems to read the disc and recognize it as valid - but then it typically gets errors trying to bring up the initial menu screens. If you ignore that and press PLAY, it starts playing but skips large portions of the movie, freezes occasionally, and the sound stutters.

In my experience so far, the people tabulating lists of which DVD players are "compatible" are simply dropping DVD-R discs in the devices and seeing if it recognizes them as a movie. That's only the first part of the battle, folks. If it can't play the entire movie error-free, what's the use?

What are you smoking?

[schroet]

dood you need to share some of that shit.

Not well thought out

[Anonymous Coward]

Not when you have early iMacs missing useful hardware everyone else has, requiring a mess of attachments. Or the first Macintosh in which it seems they remembered it needed a keyboard at the last minute. Or that cube with inadecquate ventilation. Featureful? More like "featureless": comparable PCs costing less usually have a lot more extras.

But back to the topic. Isn't Apple one of the biggest sellers of DVD drives, shipping them with their machines? Might be a good reason to bet on whatever Apple is doing to be the DVD standard for the time being.

Notes from a Mac-basher

[Anonymous Coward]

Much as I am loathe to shell out what it takes to buy a Macintosh, the frightful experience you described just now makes a mac with iMovie look so much more appealing. Surely it can't be near that bad doing DVD on Mac!

Re:Notes from a Mac-basher

[Namarrgon]

Is that you again, daveschroeder? "frightful experience"? I mean, come on.

Some virus software stops working, which he presumes is related to installing the DVD drive software (or possibly the virus software doesn't deal well with writable DVDs? who can say?), everything else is positive, and that's a "frightful experience" that's supposed to scare people into buying a Mac instead? What kind of outrageous FUD is that?

Re:Notes from a Mac-basher

[jred]

Well, frightful that he works on win32 & his virus protection sw isn't working. If I weren't a dumbass I'd be frightened too. I want a Mac for the OS, not the dvd-rw, though.

Of course, ONLY after I just bought one...

[da3dAlus]

Leave it to someone to post a question like this after I've already made the decision to buy the technology in question. Although I won't get my Pioneer DVR-104 until later this week, I've already done my homework on the subject. I wanted a DVD-storage solution to backup lots and lots of TV shows that I have gathered/recorded over the past few months. Realizing that my 20GB+ of DivX videos was going to take a LOT of CD-R's, I decided that 4.7GB of storage per disc was the way to archive. That, and my set-top JVC player understands the DVD-R and DVD-RW if I want to make my own video disks (and yes, I meant to say -R and -RW, not +R/+RW, and I don't want to get into that discussion--I've already read up on that flame war).

Anyway, the Pioneer drive is supposedly the top of the line, consumer version of the A04 (for general use DVD-R disks)--and it also burns CD-R's at 8x, so you get a 2-in-1 drive if you don't already have a CD-R burner. I also looked at the prices of the media, which have drastically dropped in price, down to about $2 a disk. Now, is this all worth it? I don't know--if enough ppl ask, I may post a review with this comment after I get my drive this week. In the meantime, I will say that I ordered my drive for $275 using PriceWatch.com as my guide. I remember getting my SCSI Yamaha 4x CD-R burner for almost $400, and spending $2-3 for the media, which was only about 3-4 years ago. I know I've been an early adopter, but I think DVD is the way to go for a lot of people--just give it some thought as to whether it's for you or not.

Reminds me of Space Quest II

[gd23ka]

Right on! Fact is, the copy protection has got to go through the driver code for reading cdrom devices which in turn has to eventually go through ide/scsi host adapter code to get to the drive. Even in systems like Windows[0-9]+/Millenium/XP there are very convenient ways of inserting a layer between the application and the drivers to simulate anything at all a copy-protected CD-ROM/DVD could come up with.

Sierra's Space Quest II had an oddly formatted track on the diskette it came on, so what did I do? Instead of stepping through all that code to get to wherever they checked for that track, I just read that track the same way the SQII's copy protection would read it, and then I hooked INT13 and fed SQII that track whenever it wanted it. That simple, and that's just the way to take care of any and all medium oriented copy protection. Even the newer CD-ROM copy protection schemes which exploit timing differences caused by odd low-level formatting a burner can't reproduce.

Argue away

[Anonymous Coward]

Trying to remember when Apple was a trend-setter. Firewire? Did they even invent that? Not sure. Any good examples?

Re:Argue away

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, Apple Invented firewire in 1996 and handed it over to a independent group (IEEE), But you would'nt know that because you werent on the net in 1996. It was around the time they were about to go belly up and they had a lot of projects going on that were getting the ax. It was a big deal in 1996 (400mbps)

$1.34 dvd's?

[Anonymous Coward]

Check this out:

Look at the bottom Top Sellers section. Is that $5 per spindle, $5 per disk, $1.35 per disk or what?

Re:DVD+RW (HP DVD Writer dvd200i)

[darnellmc]

I have this DVD writer now (HP dvd200i). I got mine from CompUSA. It's already there for $500, but if you are someone that shops at CompUSA a lot, get a GameFix Membership for $50. This membership gives you 10% off all purchases. So the HP dvd200i will cost you just $450, of course you spent $50 on the membership, but you get 10% off all future purchases. So you are going to need those DVD+RWs they are selling and you get 10% off those. You can buy the DVD+R media from HP's web site. That's not in the stores yet.

But the drive works great. I've made some movies with DVD+RWs and they play fine in my APEX 1500 DVD Player.

From what I've seen most of the major players are moving towards +R(W). And it appears to be the most compatable when burned from a burner like the HP dvd200i.

With an HP dvd200i and a copy of the latest version of Nero you can't go wrong. The latest version of Nero is much better for burning DVDs than the tools HP gives you with the drive. In fact, I've got this stupid HP CD-DVD icon in my system tray that I can't get rid of. I don't want to fully uninstall the HP software incase I'd ever want to use it. I just want to get rid of the system tray icon. Oh well, I've got an InCD icon in my system tray from Nero that I can't remove either. Anyone know how to remove System Tray icons in Win2K?

Also, it can burn CDs at 12X. DVDs only burn at 2.4X.

[No I'm not associated with HP/Compaq in any way. I'm just someone who purchased a dvd200i and feels it is the best option available.]

Product activation over the Internet

[yerricde]

Have you checked what is the price people are willing to give for the program and the like?

What if there is a large group of professionals willing to give $3000 but a much larger group of home users willing to give only $100?

Why not just add a "internet" license verification at runtime?

Proprietary payware web browsers and online games already do this. But if you have a desktop-oriented application or a single-player game, good luck getting users to set up an Internet account just for verifying the license, especially in an area where AOL is the only ISP. Microsoft Windows XP and Office XP have an Internet-based product activation system, but they also allow it to be done via telephone (insert 50 cents to maintain anonymity).

It seams to me that the majority of the "pirates" aren't actually "buyers" but just "testers"... people who grabs a program to try, train and the like and then use the program (not the copyed, but a original) in a job.

In that case, if most of the people pirating the software are learning or evaluating the program, I'd conclude that the publisher went too far in crippling the program's freely downloadable demo.

(and please... never make your clients mad... they can have the last word!)

Unless you have a monopoly under a federal administration that doesn't care <cough>GW Bush</cough>.

Re:The time is right? No way.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to say that I haven't ran into the compatibility problems with my Pioneer A04. To be honest, it has worked perfectly to play movies on *every* set top DVD player I have tried so far (but in fairness, I have tried less than 15 players total). Maybe the errors you are running into have something to do with the software being used (just a guess). I use a Mac with iMovie and iDVD.

-Bill

Re:DVD+RW Support

[hendridm]

I agree. DVD+RW may not use the DVD standard, but it's being supported by a whole slew of big manufacturers. Since you're using it for special purpose data storage, maximum compatibility isn't important.

Many modern DVD players already support DVD+RW, and I'm sure support will only grow.

Binladen swallow?

[yerricde]

the flight speed of a swallow (African) is 15-45MPH depending on whether it is laden or unladen

Yes, but what if it's binladen?

If history repeats itself...

[artemis67]

then it doesn't really matter which DVD-R you buy. I predict that within another generation or two of drives, the price should be so cheap that the only way manufacturers will be able to differentiate their drives from the rest of the pack will be to add in compatibility for the other DVD-R formats.

After all, look at 56k modems... two incompatible standards when they first came out, but now every 56k modem supports 56k-Flex and X2. Similar situation with CD-RW drives; the format is incompatible with CD-R, but manufacturers quickly saw the importance of selling burners that support both formats.

It'll happen, I guarantee it.

Philips no longer part of the copyright industry

[yerricde]

You might also say Sony, but Sony only cares about not paying as much in royalties and they have their whole video/audio sections as well just like Philips.

Actually, Philips sold its entertainment-industry holdings to Polygram, so unlike Sony, it's not torn between selling CD burners and selling uncopyable CDs. Philips does hold patents on key CD and DVD technologies, along with the trademark on "Compact Disc".

CD "x" != DVD "x"

[yerricde]

Also, it can burn CDs at 12X. DVDs only burn at 2.4X

Actually, 2.4x DVD is faster than 12x CD. 12x CD transfers at 12 times 150 KB, or 1800 KB/s, while 2.4x DVD transfers at 2.4 times 1152 KB/s (I think) to make 2700 KB/s.

The past repeating itself..?

[quigleymd]

Is it just me, or is this issue quite a lot like several years ago when the LS-120 and ZIP Drives were first introduced. Mac officially supports one, and pc adopts the other. Wouldnt it be nice if the companies that produce such things just all got together and agreed on what was best?

My opinion? Don't

[Anonymous Coward]

My opinion is as always. Never buy any hardware until there is a standard. Otherwise you run the risk of having expensive hardware becoming a door stop inside 6 months, when the companies finally decide to quit screwing around and settle on a standard. Usually it's not the one YOU settled on.

I still use tape for short term (protection from a crash, or such), and CDR for long term storage. CDs are dirt cheap now, and remember within 10 years DVD will reach their limits in storage. Lets hope holographic storage will be out then.

One word:

[Anonymous Coward]

(five, actually)
Floods, fire, frost or frippery.

It was all in good fun.

[Procrasturbator]

By burning pirate DVD's, I helped the terrorists get a passport. I helped Bin Laden escape the US forces. I helped kill police officers, fathers, mothers. Because I burned Spiderman instead of waiting and buying it, I caused AIDS to spread. It was all in good fun. I help Colombian gangsters kidnap innocent people. It's my computer, right? By burning DVD's, I failed to let the Eagle Soar. (Paid for by the US Government)

Cheap DVD-R recorders

[Anonymous Coward]

Check out http://ESBuy.com/. Pioneer DVD-R recorders at $260, with media at $3/disk. I have a Pioneer DVD-R recorder - seems to record fast enough, use it under Linux, and I do md5sums on my created DVDs without any recording errors so far. Everything has worked just fine. I agree, though, if you need a lot of on-line storage, simply using IDE drives is the way to go.

PowerFile Owned by Escient, coopters of CDDB.

[wlnjr]

Reminder: If you're considering this, remember that PowerFile is majority-owned by Escient, the company responsible for appropriating the CDDB's content under an aggressively restrictive and monopolistic license.

multiple DVD-R formats?

[g4dget]

People keep talking about uncertainty about DVD-R formats. I'm not aware of any uncertainty about "DVD-R" (the read-only) version. Isn't there just one format, the one compatible with current DVD drives (including consumer drives)?

There does seem to be uncertainty about DVD-RW/DVD+RW/DVD-RAM, but that is a different matter.

Cheap DVD-Rs

[Anonymous Coward]

heck out http://ESBuy.com/. Pioneer DVD-R recorders at $260, with media at $3/disk.

I have a Pioneer DVD-R recorder - seems to record fast enough, use it under Linux, and I do md5sums on my created DVDs without any recording errors so far. Everything has worked just fine. I agree, though, if you need a lot of on-line storage, simply using IDE drives is the way to go.

Re:Magnetic Damage?? Not quite...

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm... aren't the instruction sets for launching ICBM's on papertape, on the assumption that that's about all that'll survive the EMP after the first-strike?

Re:DVD+RW (HP DVD Writer dvd200i)

[leshert]

System tray icons can only exist when a program is running, right? So therefore, find out which program is running to display the icons and kill it using Task Manager.

Then go through your startup programs group and the "Run" keys in your registry (HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE/Software/Windows/CurrentVersio n and HKEY_CURRENT/Software/Windows/CurrentVersion) and delete the shortcut to or reference to those programs from those places. Done.

Re:If you can afford to wait...(somewhat offtopic)

[Bora Horza Gobuchol]

Progressive is not "twice as good" as interlaced. Keep in mind you're still drawing from interlaced source material - ultimately, it's up to the player / modulator to accomplish the de-interlacing. The end result is not twice as good to the average naked eye. You, my friend, are romping in the same green Elysian feilds as those who believe that 2GHz must be twice as good as 1GHz.

Besides, have you seen the price of modern progressive DVD players? I don't even want to think about what the first-adopter cost of equivalent units will be when HD-DVD comes out.

No proponents for tape systems instead?

[ziegast]

As other replies have stated, DVD isn't a mature technology yet. If you're into bleeding edge technology, feel free to experiment.

Tape is still the cheapest media and most widely used and will continue to get more dense and less expensive over the next 4-5 years. You can currently buy LTO1 and AIT3 tapes for less than $100 per 100GB tape in large quantities. Sony has a 500GB half-inch format (S-AIT) coming out within a year. The jukeboxes and libraries are still expensive compared to CD changers, but if you have alot of data to backup, their up-front cost is not as significant. If you have lots of small data sets (600MB) to archive, it might make sense to use something random-access like CDs or near-line disk. If you have large databases or filesystems to archive, it's alot easier to manage one 100GB tape rather than 153 CDs or 20 DVDs for the same data. How are you going to manage and inventory all of those CDs? If you need to store more than 1TB, consider disk or tape solutions instead.

ATA disk-based technology might seem inexpensive at first. I've seen FCAL/SCSI solutions lower that $20/GB. I've seen commercial ATA RAID5 subsystems as low as $10/GB. One can build-it-yourself using off-the-shelf cheap parts ($3/GB white box system?), but would you trust your data on the cheapest disk technology? What happens when a disk dies or when the filesystem becomes corrupted? Consider, also, how you might scale a disk-based solution beyond 1TB (if that's what you need to do). Think about power, cooling, managing failed drives, etc. Also, do you really need to keep disk drives actively spinning for data you might not access again for at least 6 months?

In short, if you have less than 2TB of data to backup and small data sets, CD is inexpensive, but building an ATA-based archive system could work better, especially for managing the data. If you need to archive more than 10TB, tape is still the best proven way to go. In between, it may be possible to mix and match technologies to be cost-effective and still provide good performance. For example, you might keep 3-6 months of data on disk and archive the rest to a tape library.

-ez

That's a bit skewed...

[rakslice]

$500 US for 8 drives worth of IDE controller capacity? That seems pretty high; a pair of Promise UDMA133 controllers (2 ch = 4 drive ea.) would set me back 150$ US total at the local corporate-office mart. And consider also that motherboards typically have 4-6 drives of capacity to start with, which should take care of other IDE peripherals and then some; you may not need more than one additional controller.

Keep in mind that you need a computer system to connect the storage to either way; but interfacing would be really affordable with the model of jukebox you suggest, since it uses firewire (IEEE-1394). (I had sort of assumed that any high capacity changers would use FC or SCSI, requiring a significant chunk of cash for the interface, but apparently they don't.)

Also, any decent full tower case should be able to handle 8 3+1/2" standard height drives. (The fact that the majority of the world banishes themselves to bad mid or mini tower cases doesn't mean that everyone has to). My cheap-assed A/Open ATX full tower has 5 internal 3+1/2" bays (3 front, 2 rear), so I'd have to convert 3 of the 5+1/4" bays to hold the remaining hds, but there would still be 2 5+1/4"s and a 3+1/2" external left. Yes, this is quite a stretch, because my case isn't suited for the crapload of cooling you would need for all of those drives. Also the power supply would need to be fairly high capacity, as it might be difficult to stagger the drive spinups to avoid power problems without using SCSI. But it still shouldn't require especially rare/expensive casing, PS, or ATA controllerage.

I don't see why you're bringing RAID (especially hardware RAID -- very expensive and unnecessary when high throughput isn't crucial) into the equation. The jukebox wouldn't do mirrored reading in the RAID sense, because it only reads one disc at a time. And, although especially capabale bundled media jukebox software may prove me wrong, I doubt that it could automatically switch to an online backup disc when encountering a read error. So you would probably just keep the mirror set offline on the shelf to reclaim the jukebox capacity. The equivalent HD solution would have backup tapes on the shelf too. (the Jukebox may have less repair downtime, more than software RAID's none, but more cost competitive also.)

more later...

Re:That's a bit skewed...

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

If you are going to do raid-5 then you almost surely don't want to do it in software, that's why you need a relatively expensive controller. Furthermore, you really do need a system with some sort of redundancy to put the two options on par for availability because a read-only jukebox of optical media is going to have a much smaller chance of irreparable data-loss than an array of disks.

Re:You're ignoring latency

[nixman99]

Depending on the application, jukeboxes can cause unacceptable latency. If the data is accessed via a web page, you'll lose a lot of customers who won't wait 30+ seconds for the page to start loading. And if a lot of people are using the data (200 disks & 1 drive), the delays will make the system completely unusable.

Re:Magnetic Damage?? Not quite...

[squiggleslash]

I put a Windows NT 3.51 CD into my laptop recently, and it read fine. That's 8 years old, at least. Also I occasionally use an 8 year old OS/2 disc. My entire music CD collection is fine, even the stuff I bought 7-8 years ago, showing no sign whatsoever of deterioration.

When people come up with these rules of thumb, I have to be honest and wonder what they're doing that I'm not. I recall reading several people saying that DVDs cannot stand being played more than 8 or 9 times. Tell that to my Criterion "Brazil" DVD which has been played more often than that, and spent time in my laptop and other such horrors. And I'm not even that careful with my discs - I'll try to hold them by the edges and I'll keep them, most of the time, in the cases (occasionally I'll just leave them in the player for a few days while I don't use the player) but, frankly, that's it. I'm not anally retentive about it, certainly not as much as most people I know. Oh yeah, and for the last four years I've lived in Florida, and before that in Britain, so these CDs have undergone some horrendous temperature/humidity abuses.

Scarily, even most floppies I have from ten years ago or so seem to have kept most of their data - and while you might be tempted to go "Aha! Most! Not all!", I'd point out that floppies have always been crap at storing all of their data, time doesn't seem to be a factor with them. They're either crap or... (and remember that magnetic storage is hardly new, and most sound media that's more than 15 years old has been stored on magnetic tracks. That means that 30 year old movie you have on DVD with the awesome sound actually has audio that was on tape for 25-29 years before it was transfered to a digital format.)

So where do these "facts" about how fragile the things are come from? The only thing I can think of is that CDs and DVDs aren't always perfect to begin with, and this gives them a reputation which leads people to automatically assume that they're going to get worse with age. In reference to the aforementioned Brazil DVD, it's actually "improved" with age (most likely there was a speck of dirt somewhere that's fallen off) in that there was a part of the disc that used to stutter and now it no longer does.

Keep your DVDs and CDs in a case when you're not using them, don't hold them by the flat sides, and don't scrub the surface with the label and they should last. Probably much more than ten years too. Honest.

DVD-R Authoring in Linux

[psm321]

Sorry, this is somewhat offtopic, but does anyone know of a DVD Movie Authoring software for Linux? I have searched for a long time and haven't been able to find anything. :(

Thanks :)

Blue laser CDs will hold 27GB so I'd wait.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why bother with 4.1GB that will be leapfrogged pretty soon? See story here.

Don't know if blue laser DVDs will come too, but how much space do you need for an HDTV movie?

Mainly, I'd like the archiving ability of 27GB. That is a nice chunk, even if your HDs are bigger.

Re:DVD+RW (HP DVD Writer dvd200i)

[joekool]

to stop something running at boot time use msconfig

Re:If you can afford to wait...(somewhat offtopic)

[Eric Smith]

Progressive is not "twice as good" as interlaced. Keep in mind you're still drawing from interlaced source material -

Progressive is much better for material originally sourced from film. I'm not going to go out on a limb and claim it's twice as good, but it's definitely good.

Why? Because film is progressive, not interlaced. When they convert the film to NTSC video (using equipment/process called telecine), they have to convert it to interlaced format, using a process called 3:2 pulldown. This splits each frame into two interlaced fields, which raises the effective rate from 24 Hz to 48 Hz. Then they duplicate some of the fields, to get from 48 Hz to the video rate of 60 Hz. Actually the NTSC rate is 59.94 Hz, but usually they ignore that detail, and the running time of the resulting video is off by 0.1%.

This results in a big difference compared to the output of video cameras. With a video camera, the two interlaced fields that make up a frame are not captured simultaneously. Instead, the camera captures a separate field every 1/60 of a second. Thus if the camera or the scene is moving, you will not be able to merge two consecutive fields into a single coherent frame. When the video is played back at normal speed, this is not a problem; in fact, it makes the video "smoother". However, if you try to display a still frame, you will see the image oscillate between the two time-independent fields at 30 Hz, which is incredibly annoying.

With telecine output, however, consecutive fields come from the same film frame. And the MPEG-2 video stream takes advantage of this by avoiding encoding the duplicate fields that were inserted by the 3:2 pulldown. So the DVD actually contains 48 fields per second, with flags that tell the player which fields to duplicate for the pulldown. A progressive-scan DVD player simply uses those flags to reconstruct the original non-interlaced frames.

For DVDs from a video source, a progressive player does have to do some "magic" in order to get reasonable deinterlaced output. This is not an exact science; different players use various techniques to do this, so the resulting quality can vary quite a bit.

Note that for PAL and SECAM video, the field rate is 50 Hz, so 3:2 pulldown is not used. But it is still possible for the DVD player to do perfect deinterlace of DVDs mastered from film.

Besides, have you seen the price of modern progressive DVD players?

Some are quite inexpensive.

Re:DVD+RW (HP DVD Writer dvd200i)

[darnellmc]

Thanks for the help.

I found the programs running in task manager and deleted them. That killed the icons from that session. Then I went to "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\Cur rentVersion\Run" and the program paths were there as keys. I deleted them and now the unneeded icons no longer show in my system tray whenever I reboot :) .

Re:DVD+RW (HP DVD Writer dvd200i)

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are running Windows 2000, look for a program called Startup Control Panel -- saves you the trouble with digging in the registry to stop this stuff. Other Windows versions have MSConfig.

Hard drive storage is cheaper.

[daveman_1]

Especially if you intend on keeping this stuff online all the time, always available. Not to mention faster... Do the math. A DVD-R drive will cost you about $300 currently, according to pricewatch. DVD-R media will cost you around $1 a piece for 4.7GB media. It appears you will have difficulty finding media for one of these drives in a higher density.

Okay, so you burn you DVD-Rs on one of these drives, and place them in cheaper DVD readers and leave them there for online playback. A basic 16x DVD drive for playback will cost you around $35 each.

Now, a 160GB hard drive will cost you $223 shipped. hmmm... I was gonna work out the math based on the density of the DVD media, the cost of the individual drives, and the burner, then compare it to the cost of the hard drive. But I think it is fairly obvious that the hard drive is the way to go for most situations, unless you specifically require your data to be stored on DVD media.

Re:Magnetic Damage?? Not quite...

[gr0ngb0t]

As for long term storage... try paper... if produced properlly, it can stand the test of time... several centuries

as long as your paper isn't full of acid.

trust me, im a librarian, and we're spending thousands on de-acidifying our early 1900-1920's books that we have the only known copy of so they last.

we DVD-R our customer service phone calls

[wessman]

The travel agency I work for archives all our customer service phone calls onto DVD-R and has been doing so for quite awhile now. Then, if a customer asks to speak to a manager or files a complaint, a manager can review the entire phone call to see what was in fact said to the customer and what the customer said. The phone call can even be played back to the customer over the phone. Easy way to know who's telling the truth!

Forget HHDs and DVDs

[OracleX103]

Better yet...
Just splurge and buy a diesel generator, a month's supply of diesel fuel, one of those battery backup power failure devices (i was tempted to say thingie) and just store all your online material in RAM! Access time should always be the goal. Stability and chaos should be secondary achievements.

I just know how irritated when my broadband gets choked up on some behemoth site that seems to be running off of a 12 RPM hdd and a 486 windows 3.1 machine. You all know it gets you too...

How bout try both HDD and DVD

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you could try the 120 gig hdd and do backups to a dvd as things are added. that way you get the best of both medium. The likely compatibility on the future with the DVD and the speed and cheap cost of large storage with the HDD. Also as HDD standards change you can upgrade and copy back from you DVD backups.

Re: Pioneer DVD drives

[Anonymous Coward]

The ps2 is just a horrible dvd player. I've had it completely die on discs that have very minor scratches that my set top dvd player handles without a hiccup. The fact that the ps2 played the disc at all says how good the burn really was.

We picked DVD+RW

[not_again]

I work for a large national weather research center(US). We wanted to replace some 8mm tape based data archiving with optical technology. Since our systems are at unmanned, remote field sites the capacity of DVD's made it worth the higher cost of the drives and media. We are currently running Linux on the remote systems, which are 3-4 years old.

One of the main reasons we chose the +RW drives over the -RW drives, is the fact that the data can be written to the drives on loaded, slow systems, or across a network. A disk image does not need to be created, the data is written directly to the device from a modified mkisofs. The -R/RW drives require the system to burn the DVD in real-time, typically from an ISO image stored on disk. Buffer under-runs are a disticnt possibility if the system isn't up to the task of feeding the higher data rate of DVD drives. Another big plus over -R/RW media was the +R/RW's ability to incrementally add data to the media. I've not tested this. Reports indicate that Linux works transparently with the resultant multi-session file system, but other OS's are not, and only see data in the first session.

We are satisfied users of the HP 200i DVD+RW drives and dvd+rw-format and growisofs utilities found at http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/

I have found that few of our older DVD-ROM drives can read either -RW or +R/RW media, although DVD-ROM drives purchased with our most recent Dell PC's can read both. Of course, YMMV.

Re:Magnetic Damage?? Not quite...

[beernutz]

You are talking about MASTERED cd's tho. cd-R and dvd(-+)R/RW have MUCH shorter retention ratings than mastered cd's. Mainly this is because they DONT use aluminium to store the "pits" formed my the laser. They actually us a DYE. This is also part of the problem with reading certain DVD-(whathaveyou) disks in other players. The QUALITIES of some disks are better suited to playback in regular drives than others.

Re:Magnetic Damage?? Not quite...

[bofkentucky]

I'd stick with clay tablets for truly ong term storage, they seem to have pretty good survival rates and are a more established technology.