Microsoft Freon

Veramocor writes "MSNBC.com has an article posted from the WSJ about MS's new plan for living room domination, codenamed Freon. Freon will be capable of 'playing games but also offering television capabilities, such as pausing live TV and recording shows onto a computer hard drive.' The article then goes on to explain future potential business plans for XBox incarnations. The system does seem to have some great advantages. I must question their naming question however, we all know what a disaster the actual chemical Freon was. Here's to hoping, Cheers!" We mentioned the Xbox's planned evolution the other day, too, but without the fancy codename.

Comments

Feature Creep

[Gopher971]

Quote "I worry about what I call feature creep -- layering too many things into a product so the original intent of the product gets lost,"

And I thought they were talking about Windows!

Re:Feature Creep

[cAPT_aARGH]

If MS does get the online gaming going, one of the new "features" of your XBox will possibly be a virus since they use a "modular" Windows and a hard drive. Won't that do wonders to their track record? Since I don't know for sure, is the xbox system operated from the hard drive or from a chip?

Freon?

[PacoTaco]

This proves that Microsoft wants to take over your refrigerator as well.

Re:Freon?

[Thatmushroom]

Hey, don't knock that idea. They've been running mine for the past 3 months. Whenever it crashes, it's usually up in a few minutes, and most of the time the meat isn't spoiled.

I draw the line at having them run my liquor cabinent, though. That's one thing I never want to lock up.

Re:Freon?

[Joseph Lam]

RTFM: "click the Windows Update item under the Start Menu once a week to keep your refrigerator up and running"

Don't you hate the EULA sticker saying "By opening this refrigerator door you ......"

Re:Freon?

[Toraz Chryx]

Bill Gates isn't the devil, Al Pacino is.

Re:Freon?

[Charm]

I thought they banned Freon

Freon Banned

Microsoft not just content with control they need to destroy the whole freezin planet as well.

Re:Freon?

[MyHair]

"click the Windows Update item under the Start Menu once a week to keep your refrigerator up and running"

You're not taking this quite far enough:

Toaster: Please enter your Passport (TM) Login
(...)
Welcome, Jim! How do you want your toast today?

Me: (Selects light brown)

Toaster: Thank you, Jim! . . .
Jim, I'm sorry, but your XBox gaming subscription is two days late. I will be unable to prepare your toast until your account is in order. Choose an account to pay this from:
A) Checking
B) Savings
C) IRA withdrawal (early penalties apply)
D) Open a Microsoft(TM) World bank credit account! Jim, this is quick and easy, and the interest is only 42% APR. You won't pay anything for the first month, and all your home Microsoft appliances will automatically deduct their usage fees from this account!

Me: (Selecting A)

Toaster: . . .
Thank you! (. . .)
Jim! Please click here to update to Microsoft(TM) Toast 3.4c! For only a nominal increase in rental fee, this required upgrade (refer to your EULA), you get the added capability of Microsoft(TM) YummyToast, in which the EULA allows you to add cinnamon and sugar or a fruit spread instead (MS(TM) Refrigerator also requires upgrade for EULA to allow these items in Microsoft(TM) HomeNecessities); this is a vast improvement over last year's NumNumToast with butter, Microsoft(TM) "I can't believe I ever used anything else besides Microsoft VeggieTales vegetable oil spread!" or cream cheese.

Me: (Throws toaster accross room.)

Security System: Jim! I see your toaster is in need of service! I'll have your Microsoft(TM) MediaPhone dial support immediately! (Connection charges apply. Average hold time: 3 hours. Estimated time to technician visit: two weeks.)

(Feel free to continue this story. -Jim)

Re:Freon?

[einhverfr]

And I thought PostgreSQL had a monopoly on TOAST support ;)

Re:Freon?

[zCyl]

and most of the time the meat isn't spoiled.

But if it's closed-source meat, how do you ever really know??

Re:what about the environment?

[haeger]

If freon contains CFCs and eats up the ozone layer, what will MS Freon do?

It'll contain CRC's and eat up your freedom to choose?

.haeger

GNU games console

[Anonymous Coward]

What we need is a GPL-licenced games console hardware design, built from relatively common components, that can be assembled by the user, or bought.

It wouldn't have to be very high-powered either, I would suggest an 68030 as the main CPU, with two 68000's one each as a sound and graphics processor - that's more processing power than is in a lot of the games in your local arcade, and perfectly adequate for the sort of games that most hackers like to play, (I.E. RPGs, beat-em-ups, shoot-em-ups, etc).

Just another of my excellent ideas :-)

once again....

[smileyj68]

I like the name. It reminds me of something else all right thinking people wanted to rid the world of.

Re:once again....

[Em Emalb]

not too sure what your definition of right thinking people is, but in my world, it's this:

Box for the cable/tivo. TV. Game Console. Computer. I like that they are seperate. I think the rest of the worl likes that they are seperate. Didn't they learn from their original webtv or what ever the heck it was called abortion?

I know, there is POTENTIALLY a huge market for an all inclusive product. Problem is, we don't want it. And those of us that do, well, they are a small minority I believe. Maybe in another generation or two, this would be feasible.

I can see it now, 50 years from now:

"Dude, what's that?"
"It's a Tivo. It only records and stores "live" *snicker* tv."
"Man, those poor bastards...good thing I have my Linux 5750 Access port."
"Yeah. Let's just hope the MAN doesn't get the free software Anti-DRM repealed."
"Word*."

*I am sure "word" will be replaced with something much cooler. Us old farts (well, by then anyway, won't know cool if it smackes us and takes our money.

They can't dominate me

[joshsnow]

Microsoft can only dominate your living room if you own a television.

Re:They can't dominate me

[krmt]

Are you kidding? Have you seen an X-Box? If put one in your living room, the room will be dominated by the unholy size of the thing.

Then you can use it as a combination coffee table and space heater. Now that's utility!

Re:They can't dominate me

[tshak]

Even though my PS2 is practically the same size (The XBox is a lot deeper, but it's not even as deep as my DVD player so they both take the same practically useable space).

Backwards compatability?

[3.5 stripes]

What happens to all those people who shelled out almost $400 at the begining of the xboxes life?

Do they now have to cough up another $500 for a X-Tivo just so they can play any new games?

Releasing new box after new box, and cutting off your established user base isn't going to win this system any fans...

At least an old pc can still play new games, albeit at lower resolutions, will the old x-box play new games, or will they handicap the new games so they aren't as impressive on the new box?

Re:Backwards compatability?

[zwoelfk]

"At least an old pc can still play new games..."

1. what you describe would be forward compatibility not backward (XBox playing XBox2 games which isn't going to happen)

2. one of my biggest peeves with windows is lack of compatibility for games across versions. my daughter has something like a hundred PC games (bought!) that were written for various versions of DX and windows and all of which show an amazing lack of compatibility with the newer versions of windows. Win2K,WinME don't work -most- of the time. WinXP is a bit better (in compatibility mode). so I have to basically maintain an extra machine to play (Win98) to play these games. let's not even go on to my pile of DOS games. the PC is no better.

3. sony has set a nice example with PS2 compatibility with PSX games. I would be surprised if the next version of XBox didn't do the same thing.

"Releasing new box after new box, and cutting off your established user base isn't going to win this system any fans..."

uhh.. hello? this is the way the console market has -always- worked. and it -has- won them new fans, year after year. I don't hear much complaining that the gamecube doesn't play NES games.

Re:Backwards compatability?

[techstar25]

What happened to those people who shelled out $100 at the beginning of WIndows 95s life.

They had to cough up another $100 for Win98, and then another for WinMe and then another for XP, so they can use new software.

They released OS after OS cutting off their user base for years, and now they're the biggest company in the world. We've heard this all before. And it worked beautifully the first time. But this time there is an alternative.

Re:Backwards compatability?

[rseuhs]

It's OK if you release a new box every 5-6 years, but releasing a new one every 2 years will not work.

I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[BlackGriffen]

The entire point of the console market is as follows:

one: cheap
two: uniform hardware (or as close to it as possible)
three: a long upgrade cycle (about 5 years)
four: sell hardware at a loss or paper thin margins to make money back on software

My guess is that this will turn out to be the jack of all trades, but master of none. If they sell this thing cheap enough to be a successful console, then they'll lose money for every set top boxer. If they sell it at a respectable profit, it won't be a successful console. Granted, they could simply make it X-Box compatible, but then anyone willing to spring for a set top will probably buy them separately to get better features, or taylor their setup to their own needs. Not to mention the households like mine that have a dedicated gaming TV (nothing spectacular, really) so that other people can watch movies et al whilst the gamers game.

BlackGriffen

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[Rayder]

Worse than this, If MS thinks it can make a Video set top box better than SONY can, they are plain wrong. SONY is now a major manufacturer of professional video devices, and a major maker of game consoles, they have the know-how to tie all this together with their own chips and manufacturing plants.
Nice try microsoft, but this is not going to work... :-)

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[sql*kitten]

Worse than this, If MS thinks it can make a Video set top box better than SONY can, they are plain wrong. SONY is now a major manufacturer of professional video devices, and a major maker of game consoles, they have the know-how to tie all this together with their own chips and manufacturing plants.
Nice try microsoft, but this is not going to work... :-)

Business 101: Corporations have two basic resources: capital, and management attention. Corporate strategy is the decision making process that allocates these in ways that fulfill the company's objectives (which may be as nebulously defined as "enhance shareholder value"). Anything a company wants or wants to do can usually be acquired or fulfilled using these two resources. It's wrong to assume that Microsoft not owning a fab right now will make much difference in the long term.

Also, there's something that savvy players in professional services (law, consulting, investment banking, etc) have known for a long time: unless you really want the brand, it's often not worth buying another company, since all the assets are intellectual. It's much cheaper to simply poach the key players and selectively encourage defections from their staff to yours. The same is true in high tech, witness Microsoft's strategy aagainst Borland. If Microsoft want to get people (all business is people, really) they can look to Sony or to Sony's rivals.

The future is still very much in play.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[markmoss]

some slave labour camp in taiwan......

Taiwan doesn't have slave labor camps. Taiwan is (compared to most Asian countries) free and democratic. If they want slave labor, they've got to get an agent in Hong Kong to contract to get the work done on the mainland.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[rnd()]

You sound like a luddite. Look at it this way: let them surprise you with a new definition of the console.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[rnd()]

From Dictionary.com: A Luddite is one who opposes technical or technological change.

I stand by what I wrote.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[ivan256]

Let me surprise them when I don't buy it.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[flatrock]

This isn't the entire point of the console market? It's the way the market currently works. The point of the market is to make money selling video games to consumers.

one:cheap - This definately helps sell games. Microsoft is selling their consoles and games pretty cheap, but they aren't amking money while doing it. In order to make money, they need to increase volumes on the games.

two: uniform hardware - this is what gives consoles a uniforme experience. It makes games easier to develop and more stable. Bringing out a new console every year makes creating games harder, but not nearly as bad as developing for PCs. A three year product cycle might be more reasonable.

three: a long upgrade cycle - The only reason Microsoft wants a long upgrade cycle is to avoid pissing off customers who don't want to upgrade often, and developers that don't want to have to develop for multiple XBox platforms. Microsoft DOES want to have a shorter product cycle than Sony. Sony develops their own processors at a huge expense. SOny only starts making money off of selling consoles after several years of selling the same console to make back those development costs. Microsoft uses off the shelf processors. Their consoles cost much less to develop. Therefore shorter product cycles effect them much less than Sony. Sony also has a harder time maintaining compatibility between platforms because of their custom development. These things all give Microsoft and advantage if they have a shorter cycle than Sony. Annual upgrades still don't make sense, but 3 year cycles sure do.

four: sell hardware at a loss or paper thin margins to make money back on software -
Freon is more than a console, and therefore can be expected to cost more. Because it can perform those multiple features with pretty much the same hardware, they can make it cost considerably less than the price of two seperate boxes. Freon won't likely replace the next generation of the XBox. Freon will likely be a seperate, more expensive product that is compatible with the next XBox. They can use the same hardware to provide gaming features, and have additional hardware and software to support video on Freon. Of maybe Feaon might just be a $200 price tag for a cool remote and video software, and a bigger hard drive.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[Fjord]

I'm sorry, but aquisition isn't as good as having an already established brand and manufacturing site(s). There are many things that go with aquisition that can impact how you enter into a market. You had better pad the timeline a lot or you will ship late. Egos in the aquired company have to be stroked just right, or you'll have a talent exodus and you'll have just bought a bunch of equipment.

I realize that Microsoft is no stranger to aquiring, but it still even with their experience, it isn't as good as owning th eplants already.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[rnd()]

That is your choice! It's nice to see someone thinking like a capitalist here... :)

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[tshak]

Less we forget that the entire reason that Sony came into the market is for the same thing that MS is doing now. Sony has a HD upgrade for a reason, and it's not just for multiplayer gaming.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[rnd()]

a consumer-oriented society is a capitalist society, and vice-versa. Anything else is inefficient.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[BlackGriffen]

Luddite, huh? You, sir, are a troll. I never said that I was opposed to the idea, I said it wouldn't succeed. That would make me a nay-sayer, and a skeptic.

Let met put it to you this way, where has the combination TV VCR gone? Unless there is some financial or technological advantage of integrating two things with separate functions, attempting to strap a vacuum cleaner to the refrigerator does not make for a successful product just because you have integrated the functions of two devices.

Now go back to your cave, and try to come up with a better insult next time, troll.

BlackGriffen

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[rnd()]

I interpreted your comment as though you were saying "I like my consoles just the way they are, damn it. In my day we had a separate console, a separate PVR, and we liked it.". I would have expected you to use the word "newfangled" as part of your expression of dismay about the state of the world. What has the world come to, anyway.

They're trying to combine a TiVO (an extremely popular device) with a game console (another extremely popular device). This isn't the Jetsons, this is common sense made possible by the commodity hardware used in the X-Box.

I don't mean to troll, there's nothing wrong with being a luddite. I think there are even Luddites-anonymous support groups out there.

By the way, no offense intended.

X-Box more costly cuz of Windows (RETCH)

[Wraithlyn]

"The Xbox console isn't profitable for the Redmond, Wash., company and its costs are believed to be higher than Sony's, partly because of the hard drive and a version of its powerful Windows operating system included with each machine."

Oh cry me a river. Like Microsoft is losing money because of all the billions they're pouring into the miraculous X-Box Bastardized Windows Operating System. Sure, maybe the hard disk is a lotta coin, but the cost of putting Windows on a console? Catastrophic.

Re:X-Box more costly cuz of Windows (RETCH)

[Juju]

Whoever modded this one as Troll is one stupid reader.
I find your remark very much to the point. I can't understand how Microsoft is loosing money on each console because of Windows... Surely this is a one off R&D cost. Unless Microsoft (the OS division) is charging the M$ fee for each console sold. That would really be a funny one, but I doubt it works like that...

Re:X-Box more costly cuz of Windows (RETCH)

[dsb3]

> Unless Microsoft (the OS division) is charging the M$ fee for each console sold. That would really be a funny one, but I doubt it works like that...

Microsoft may not be actually writing itself a cheque, but this could be the start of some great 'creative' accounting, if put in the right (wrong) hands.

"But Judge, we're LOSING money. Protect us from those nasty competitors!!"

Re:X-Box more costly cuz of Windows (RETCH)

[Technician]

That would really be a funny one, but I doubt it works like that...

Ummm Maybe the cost is related to the fact that running Windows requires more memory and a hard drive which runs the costs up more than the competition.

Re:X-Box more costly cuz of Windows (RETCH)

[sql*kitten]

Ummm Maybe the cost is related to the fact that running Windows requires more memory and a hard drive which runs the costs up more than the competition

I don't think the special version of Windows that comes with the XBox does necessarily, for example it doesn't have virtual memory support. It could probably be run from firmware like CE does. As far as I know, the OS actually comes on the game disk.

Re:X-Box more costly cuz of Windows (RETCH)

[Rogerborg]

Given the way that large corporations work, it wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft were billing themselves for use of the cut down 2K OS. At a massive discount, with... interesting... tax implications, I'd further speculate.

Patents

[kwishot]

You'd think that TiVo has some sort of patent on this kind of thing....
Oh wait....thats right....
OurCourtSystem: Money=Influence Microsoft=Money, therefore Microsoft=Influence. Patents and other such laws no longer apply!
Anyways...seriously...does TiVo (or someone) have this patented?

Re:Patents

[kawaichan]

Um... Why are you being such a troll

Microsoft has already have a TiVo like system, it's called the Ultimate TV.

So until next time, please don't start the trolling and stupid MS bashing until you get all the facts straight

Re:Patents

[Phil Wilkins]

> Microsoft has already have a TiVo like system, it's called the Ultimate TV.

No, it's called, third place in a one horse race.

Although that's what RenderMorphics was before they bought it renamed it Direct3D, and started giving it away for nothing. here

[I worked at Argonaut during all this, although I never met Rich, IIRC his office was stateside]

Possible MS Project Names

[Popocatepetl]

Microsoft is running out of destructive chemicals/materials to use as product codenames.

Here are some suggestions so they can continue to innovate:

Plutonium - the "most powerful" platform
Asbestos - Microsoft's new embedded platform
Acrylamide - for next generation restaurant machinery
Lead Paint Chips - top-secret, pervasive computing initiative

Re:Possible MS Project Names

[mpe]

Plutonium - the "most powerful" platform

How about Ununoctium? Which probably is chemically inert.

Re:Possible MS Project Names

[dattaway]

It gets better with Freon(tm). To most people, this is a cool gas, pretty much inert, and has good heat conductivity.

Everyone knows about the potential to destroy the atmosphere by letting in the cancerous spectrum of UV, but there is a very deadly form of Freon. If Freon happens to be burned, it forms a mortally toxic acid and phosgene gas. If freon in your car were released and entered the engine's intake, the resulting exaust can wipe out bystanders.

Its interesting Microsoft used Du Pont's Freon tradmark. Why? If you try to burn Freon on your computer, would there be certain death?

Re:Possible MS Project Names

[sharkey]

MS Thalidomide - all-in-one fulfillment for your maternity needs.
MS DDT - Official refills for the...
MS XtREME Lawncare game, with respiratory-feedback controller.

Lies, all lies

[dimator]

Interesting. According to this (note the URL, someone has a sense of humor) MS would turn down feature requests that didn't improve the Xbox's "gaming" performance/ability. I'm glad to see that that was all a lot of bull shit.

funny names

[dago]

I think that some of the marketing/PR people of MS have been sick / on holidays / away these times.

Palladium : was originally the name of the statue of Pallas-Athenas, which was supposed to protect the city of Troie. Which was later invaded by greeks which used a subterfuge which will be known for centuries as trojan horses.

Freon : according to this web page, apart from evident utility in refigerators, "Only decades later did people realize that such chlorofluorocarbons endangered the ozone layer of the entire planet." and, even worse for MS : "The trade name Freon® is a registered trademark belonging to E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Company (DuPont)."

Re:funny names

[Saint Fnordius]

Actually, a lot of Microsoft's advertising belies a subtle sabotage by their PR types. Remember the Stones song whose refrain was "You make a grown man cry"? How about the Office ads with a requiem for a soundtrack? Or the way the Windows logo looks like it's going down/to crash?

I definitely think that it's a subtle jab at clueless leaders, that the marketing types are playing jokes on the computer geeks that supposedly run the place.

They were probably having trouble keeping a straight face as they suggested Freon. "Oh yeah, it'll connotate 'Free' and 'on'! (snicker) Um, I gotta go to another meeting! (burst of laughter as the door closes)"

Re: funny names

[Black Parrot]

> Palladium : was originally the name of the statue of Pallas-Athenas, which was supposed to protect the city of Troie. Which was later invaded by greeks which used a subterfuge which will be known for centuries as trojan horses.

Funnier yet when you find out that some people think the Palladium was actually a gigantic dildo.

No, stop, don't mod this up as 'funny' - I'm serious.

Re:funny names

[Vulture_]

Perhaps Open Source is not the greatest threat to Microsoft after all. The great Roman empire was destroyed from within; the invaders from without merely finished it off. Perhaps we'll soon see a similar scenario here, where Open Source is merely a coup de grace?

Re:funny names

[iapetus]

Strange though it seems, surely this can be the only explanation for an OS called 'winCE'...

Re:funny names

[halftrack]

When I think about palladium I think of it as a component used in producing nuclear weapons and it has got a radioactive isotop: Pd-103.

Re:funny names

[zeno_2]

I found this gif that someone made, it was showing off the logo's for the following os's, Windows NT, Windows CE, and Windows ME..

Together it made Windows CE ME NT, or Windows CEMENT.

Re:funny names

[Citizen of Earth]

Remember the Stones song whose refrain was "You make a grown man cry"? How about the Office ads with a requiem for a soundtrack?

The OfficeXP commercial featured the start of the song "Lunatic Fringe" by Red Rider. I guess they were attempting to directly address their customers who are willing to buy the same product over again.

Re:funny names

[karmawarrior]

No, it's because someone (whose name I forget, I'll have to look it up when I get home, but I don't recall any connection with DuPoint, and DuPont's patents would have already have run out by that point) developed the theory in the mid-seventies that as freon breaks up under UV light, and as there's lots of UV light in the ozone layer (by definition, that's the layer that blocks it) and ozone is very reactive, especially under UV, there was quite a good probability that the chlorine in it would come apart, react with the ozone, creating something else and resulting in a depletion of ozone.

This is a very logical explanation, and meant a lot of research was done into finding out if the ozone layer really was depleting. Lo and behold, checks on the areas above the poles revealed a massive reduction in the following decade.

I have a book of essays by one Isaac Asimov dating back to 1976, The Planet That Wasn't, which includes three chapters on ozone: it's discovery, it's importance in terms of how it made life on land possible, and, finally, a whole chapter on freon, what a fantastic substance it is (and it was), and ending on an explanation of how it might have one little flaw... with a comment to the effect of "It might be wise to reduce our usage of freon now rather than face a panic stop in ten years time."

It's excellent and explains in terms even a politician could understand what the chemical processes involved are and it's head-slappingly-and-saying-of-course! convincing without being alarmist. But Asimov never was an alarmist or luddite, and his chapter on freon is positively enthusiastic about the stuff, which under normal circumstances is as toxic as nitrogen (ie not), highly compressable without high forces, and a good heat conductor, until the ending when he points out its suseptability to breakdown under UV.

The book is still available, used, from Amazon's marketplace resellers. I recommend it.

Re:funny names

[zeno_2]

Yup that was it, I had a pretty good laugh when I first saw it.. =P

Thanks for the link

Re:funny names

[haggar]

Yeah, and what do you think about "Hailsrorm"? Maybe nobody noticed, but what is a hailstorm most likely to do? Shatter Windows! This seems to be one of their PR sabotages, too.

BTW. Hailstorm, it so seems, has died.

This just in...

[ferrocene]

Company makes product which is thought to increase revenue! Seriously, what's the point of this "news". Companys make products all the time, it doesn't mean you have to buy them or it will increase world domination. This is now law, it's consumer choice (ok, ok, there's that little "monopoly" thing"). But that's mostly MS-centric thinking.

Word on the street - Nike to make new shoe; increases running speed!

Kodak to make picutes more sentimental! Kodak moments to increase!

Lexus is rumored to make an expensive-looking car, and charge a lot of money for it!

What Linux (as a community) REALLY needs to do is create a sexy commercial featuring a scantily-clad Britney Spears doing an 'apt-get install' with wild camera angles and dance music. I'm thinking directed by Hype Williams, fish-eyed lens and all. Because we all know that advertising is the only REAL way to increase market share...or something. ;)
Oh shit! The commercial will also have to feature this guy:
http://www.thelinuxpimp.com/

Trust me, no matter how monopolistic M$ will try to be (or is), teenagers will flock to a sexy OS.

Hmmm...so this is a bit off-topic. The point is, new M$ products don't excite me or qualify as news. Unlike a sexy linux/tux commercial. Did I say sexy? 'Cause I meant sexy. As in sex. Sexy.

"Uh, how about no, ok Scott?" -Dr. Evil

Re:This just in...

[krmt]

Unlike a sexy linux/tux commercial. Did I say sexy? 'Cause I meant sexy. As in sex. Sexy.

Don't they show penguins having sex on the Discovery Channel or something? It's either that or Linus doing a hot little number, take your pick.

it not free-on at all

[falsemover]

Microsoft expect to lose money on the box and make on going money when you are on the net playing games or maybe just surfing with a souped up copy of Explorer. So it's not likely to be free-on at all.

Some marketing genius says: well lets attack the negative and code name it Freon.
another marketing genius says: but isn't freon an unpopular gas?
the first marketing genius: But people will think that it is FREE ON, did you see what I did there? Did you see that?
second genius:Hey, the number one marketing word is FREE. You are a genius.
first genius (smug mode on): Hey, I'm living proof that Micro$oft recruit from the top.

Another idea

[af_robot]

Microsoft Mercury Proxy Server: safe and solid solution for internet security

toxicology

[Cally]

Freon isn't very good for you...

Step carefully...

[weave]

Being quite an old flock()er, I can recallthe video game boom of late 70s early 80s. Atari was champ, then something happened. The market became too fractured. Atari 5200, Colecovision, and some others I can't remember. Then Atari announces 7800 shortly after 5200 was out and no one wanted to buy a 5200. Eventually, it all just died out.

It wasn't until the NES rose out of the console market's ashes did things kick back in gear. One thing that was great about the NES was it was stable and long lived. The same goes for the next market leader, Playstation.

Microsoft could very well risk killing the entire console market if it introduces too much confusion and churn into it. If they make consoles as complicated as PCs, a lot of buyers may just be turned off. Think of all the people, right down to the poorest you know, that have a console but no computer in their house.

Re:Step carefully...

[weave]

NES wasn't any more stable than the 2600

Damn the English language at times...

By stable, I meant, consistent and long lived. The Atari 2600 came out in 1976 and was king for several years. The NES was the #1 console for ages as well. Having an unfragmented console market back then meant that all of your friends had the same system and you could haul your carts around, share, play together, etc...

I just don't think the market can support too many consoles. My closet is full of short-lived failed consoles, like my 3DO, Dreamcast, and N64.

Looks to me like PS2 is the winner this round. Just ask any kid who is current-generation consoleless what console they want.

The Future, Near and Far

[krmt]

This article didn't really say a whole lot about where things are headed. Lots of speculation, but I'm sure the X-Box team doesn't know a whole lot themselves yet. I'm still not convinced that the hard drive is really worthwhile for the price range. I can see some benefits for online gaming, but with sufficient RAM it shouldn't be a necessity.

I think the idea of replacing the TV with the X-Box is a really good one for a lot of obvious reasons, but unless they provide a CD or DVD burner, there's no way I'd toss my VCR. You simply want to archive stuff (favorite episodes and such), and if you've got an X-Box hard drive full of MP3's or whatever, you're not going to want to go around deleting things prematurely. If they make it in to a full TiVO-like service and provide a really huge hard drive (and a burner too!) they would have a potentially killer product on their hands.

I think what'll be really interesting is to see whose online gaming model will play out better. Sony's model is more anarchic, while Microsoft's is better planned and more centralized. Kind of like the difference between Id and Blizzard. In my experience, the random Quake server is a hell of a lot better than a Battle.net game of Starcraft, but we'll see if this will extend to console-based online gaming.

I'm betting that the online gaming thing won't become critical at least until the PS3 hits. It's pretty much a fringe thing right now, but I have no doubt that it'll become much more important once the console makers really get their acts together. Still, I always think of console gaming as being a lot more social than computer gaming, with a bunch of people clustered around the TV playing Smash Bros or Goldeneye to be more likely than a bunch of people clustered around a hub playing Quake on their own monitors. Because of this, I'm betting less people will feel the need to hit the network to play games when they can just call a few friends to come over and play.

Munching tacos and swilling soda while beating your friends to pulp is a lot more fun when they're right there next to you doing it too.

we all know what a disaster Freon was... try again

[Daniel Quinlan]

When Freon was introduced, it replaced very dangerous/poisonous/explosive chemicals (such as ammonia) which caused a number of fatal accidents.

I remember an anecdote about a du Pont employee demonstrating the safety of the chemical by inhaling a good breath of Freon and blowing it out to extinguish a candle, demonstrating that it was both non-toxic and not explosive. Try that with ammonia!

Even if it may have had an impact on the ozone layer, there's more than just the safety component of the refrigerant chemical to consider. Where would food safety and preservation be without refrigeration? Without refrigeration, say hello to E. Coli and friends. Get used to salt-curing, preservatives, and freeze drying (yum). And then say goodbye to fresh seafood, out-of-season produce, frozen pizza, and a lot of the food that we eat.

Here's an article about the history of Freon and another about the history of the refrigerator. (Oops, it wasn't just a du Pont employee who did the demo, it was the actual inventor... sounds like a lot of technology demos.)

It would be great if..........

[phunhippy]

I would find it highly amusing if someone managed to crack the XBOX & write PVR software for it as well :) since it has the HD on it already..

Re:It would be great if..........

[theRhinoceros]

That would require the Xbox having a video-in port of some kind, which IIRC, it does not have.

xbox as VCR

[Joseph Lam]

Son: Dad can I play Halo now?

Dad: boy don't touch my little Freon tonite

Son: (WTF...)

Dad: I've scheduled recording of Britney show

Son: ...but it ran out of disc space last night already. I told you to clean up those pRoN thing...

Will it be still sold at loss?

[Alex Belits]

I mean, one thing is selling a game console at loss -- you can license games, and another thing is to sell at loss a device that is perfectly capable of independent operation. And if they expect that they can tie PVR to a mandatory subscription, their worst enemy would be a... PC.

needs a different name.

[Rhinobird]

Freon just isn't cool enough for me (*cough*)

How about:
CFC
Ozone destroyer
Aerosol
cancer box?
Defender of capitalism against the demon hordes of cancerous GPL software?
F-box
money-pit
DRM testbed
We Control Your TV Set
Tivo+
What were we making again?

I'm sure someone will be able to come up with more names.

Re:Has it occured to anyone....

[mccalli]

... that they probably named this product "freon" in a feeble attempt at establishing a connection between use of the product and being "free".... or something equally market-savvy and brain-dead.

I read it as them implying that the product is cool.

Cheers,
Ian

Are they nuts?!

[prockcore]

This is really quite amazing to me. Microsoft truly is the most braindead company.

Why in the world would anyone buy an xbox now? We now know it's going to be replaced with "something much much better" in a little while.

Now instead of making money selling xbox's and xbox games, everyone will just hold on to their cash and wait for Freon(tm).

In the meantime xbox-exclusive game makers will bleed red, and drop support for the xbox.. when Freon actually makes it out the door, it'll have no games because the game makers aren't going to invest the time and money on a product that already burned them once.

Freon will kill all of MS's hopes in the console market. And you can bookmark me on that.

Re:Are they nuts?!

[larien]

Hrm, aren't PS1s still selling despite "something much much better" being available now? Perhaps that's died off a little, but ISTR that the PS1 was selling better than the Xbox, certainly in Japan (but that's a weird market anyway...).

Re:Are they nuts?!

[Salsaman]

Great ! So when we get Linux on the xbox, we'll have tons of discounted hardware to run it on.

Go Microsoft !

Re:Are they nuts?!

[night_flyer]

the PSone is only 49.99, thats why it is still selling... that and there are about a zillion games out there for it...

Re:Are they nuts?!

[plumby]

But that is probably down to two factors. The PS1 has vast amounts of software available to it (admittedly much of it is pretty poor), and it is £50, and therefore almost a impulse buy. I suspect many of the people that are buying them are parents after a cheap console, with large amounts of software to choose from, to keep their kids happy. An X-Box, with few titles in comparison, and with a price tag of £200 is probably out of reach of these sort of buyers.

Re:Are they nuts?!

[tlh1005]

Well that depends on what your perception of a "little while is". Assuming this article is correct and things won't change timetable and market wise, (A BIG ASSUMPTION) an improved version of the Xbox console will not be released until approx 2005. This isn't any different than what Sony plans to do, and has done in the past. The way I read the article Freon is only an Xbox with additional NON-gaming features like the PVR. MS may lose based on the initial problems of when they released the Xbox but I can't see them losing more just by adding a PVR next year or so.

I've got a PS2 and I think its the better machine, but admittedly I am partial to Sony products, I know they have a larger market share on game titles, and also I haven't been exposed to playing the Xbox. I'm not an MS junkie and Kudos to anyone who can do anything better... but really, whats the point in always expecting or wanting them to fail. I for one would rather see them produce better products :-)

Re:Are they nuts?!

[rnd()]

the prices are different... so what you're really asking is "Why would someone want to save $300?".

This is no different than buying hardware: There will always be something better. Why do people buy the latest and greatest hardware when they will surely be able to get better hardware for the same price (or a substantial price reduction on the same hardware) a few months?

Logic, anyone?

Re:Are they nuts?!

[larien]

I'm not as sure as you seem to be that the Xbox will have a larger game selection. Added to this, in 3 years time, there will be better consoles (MS or not) which means that the Xbox will be looking dated and will only be worth the $50 it will be sold at, i.e. it'll be about the same value.

In any event, the point is that an old console is still selling well despite their being better consoles out there, which is the point I was trying to make.

Re:Are they nuts?!

[fferreres]

"... game makers aren't going to invest the time and money on a product that already burned them once."

Hey wait, they have ALWAYS waited for Microsoft to "get it right this time". They only get it right in the third iteration or so (Office 95, DirectX 6, Windows 98SE, etc, etc.).

Why do I have this feeling that your prediction will miserably fail?

Seems obvious to me

[rattler14]

Every time there is an article about microsoft trying to take over our living rooms, everyone freaks out and no one can seem to understand why they are so desperate to do such a thing.

Well, simply put, they have to. Microsoft is a huge company, used to churning out huge profits. That was all fine and dandy as long as they could continue to create (or copy, incoporate, etc) new operating systems and software packages that people would continually purchase on a somewhat regular basis (every software/hardware cycle). The problem that they seem to be facing over the past few years is that NO ONE wants to upgrade their systems anymore. Their software, a huge part of their profits, has reached a point where users are quite happy (i know, how sad to be happy with their products) with them. SO, no matter how many rebates or promotions they offer, there are still a lot of computers out their running windows 2000 and even 98 and NT4. Why? Cause the new features that office XP has are worthless to many people.

So, how does this all tie in? Microsoft needs to find a new way to generate continual profits. It can't push people into buying software upgrades as they could in years past. The only way they will be able to sustain this money influx is to expand to new markets (video games, TV, various website services) as well as try and charge monthly costs for their OS (i believe that they are still trying to do so).

So, stop being suprised about all of this. It's gonna happen. And if you don't like it, don't buy their products/services. They currently don't have dominance in these other markets, and they won't as long as people don't buy all of their crap.

Recorded BSOD

[nvainio]

Freon will be capable of 'playing games but also offering television capabilities, such as pausing live TV and recording shows onto a computer hard drive.'

Does this mean that I will get three hours of recorded Blue screen of Death on my hard disk?

The ironic thing about Freon

[BitwizeGHC]

Freon, the chemical, represents a moneymaking scheme that Bill Gates can only have wet dreams about.

See, the patents that DuPont held to the Freon compound expired in 1992... the same year the UN adopted a treaty banning the use of CFC-based refrigerants with support from DuPont and a lot of enviro-hype. The approved refrigerant, HFC-134a, is less efficient, highly toxic, and protected by exclusive patents owned by DuPont.

It's a bit like if Microsoft somehow got a law passed declaring Windows 98 illegal, and requiring all users to upgrade to Windows XP, replete with customs agents stopping smugglers of legitimate, but now contraband, Windows 98 copies at the border.

Believe me guys, MS is just small-time evil. Quasi-evil. Not evil enough.

weak name

[mieses]

maybe someone at MS was impressed by the cool gassy names the SGI Octane, O2, and Fuel but the best they could come up with was Freon.

Freon seems much more passive than the sgi names. but it is for couch-potatoes after all..

One interesting point from the article..

[gusnz]

...[The XBox's] costs are believed to be higher than Sony's, partly because of the hard drive and a version of its powerful Windows operating system included with each machine.

I can't help but wonder how much Microsoft is paying to license the "powerful Windows operating system" for each machine from itself. Development costs will surely have been an issue, but using it to explain the current loss is stretching it a little.

Anyway, the article is quite a good overview of the current console scene. I can't help but wonder, however, if Microsoft's "go it alone" strategy is the best choice, or whether they'd be better off licensing gaming technology to other manufacturers as they are planning for WMV (see link). It would reduce financial risk to them, mirrors their current strategy for OS dominance in the personal computer industry, and Nintendo has started to do this with its GameCube (Panasonic DVD/Gamecube combo). Or would this wind up suffering the same fate as the Nuon chipset?

MS launching probing attacks into a new sector

[Aliks]

The Xbox offers benefits to many parts of MS, and the investment necessary to establish a beachhead is small compared what they could win.

It seems clear that there is a huge marketplace in the home entertainment / home management space. The traditional PC / laptop and Office type apps aren't going to take this area by storm so some new thinking is needed.

First off it isn't clear what will turn out to be the paradigm shifter. New ways to run e-mail? Video interaction with chat groups over broadband? New games? Management of CD music centre? TiVo style access to TV content? Automating household security and energy management?

Any or all of these could be the key, but maybe something not on this list at all. The big thing for MS is to leverage current strengths to absolutely dominate the space they target.

From this point of view they need to establish a new common platform for H/W, S/W and comms under MS control.

Xbox offers

* A foothold in the livingroom via a games console, with a cashflow attached

* Testing out of the control technologies that will be needed to enforce a monopoly:

* Xbox architecture for coupling the OS and hardware so that only controlled, approved apps can run

* The chance to test out DRM and distribution apps (at least in the next Xbox release)

* MS mediation of interactive services, e-mail home shopping etc that are currently set top box based

* A viable platform for whatever does turn out to be the killer app/service in the home

A lot of people would love to see these kind of services up and running, but lack the muscle to do it on their own. If MS can ship enough Xbox class machines they should be able to attract third parties to deliver whats necessary (within MS rules of course)

Whatever happens I'm sure that Xbox and derivatives will not be money down the drain for MS

Microsoft strong point: STABILITY

[ishark]

"Hassium" - solid stable servers.

(Hassium has a 2.0ms half-life).

x-box tv advertising?

[pubjames]

I don't have a games console, I've probably out-grown them - the last one I brought was a Sega Megadrive. But some of the TV/cinema ads I've seen recently have tempted me - a great one for Final Fantasy X on the PlayStation, and various ads for Nintendo games. I've also seen some great ads for PlayStation games at the cinema.

What I don't understand is - Microsoft say they are investing a few billion on the X-Box over the next few years - but where are the ads? Maybe it's different in the USA, but in the parts of Europe I frequent I've seen hardly any X-Box advertising recently. There was a burst of TV ads at the launch, but now virtually nothing.

I'll admit to not being as brilliant a businessman as Bill Gates, but I can't help thinking that spending a bit more on regular and compelling TV advertising might be a better idea than adding more functionality to the X-Box hardware.

What's happening with console advertising in other parts of the world?

DRM?

[bigbadwlf]

recording shows onto a computer hard drive

Sure... but only if the production company says you can.

Given their plans for "Palladium" and the EULA for the WMP service pack, does anyone think this thing isn't gonna be chock full o' DRM?

MS-NBC's Impartial Reporting

[DiscoBiscuit]

"The Xbox console isn't profitable for the Redmond, Wash., company and its costs are believed to be higher than Sony's, partly because of the hard drive and a version of its powerful Windows operating system included with each machine" ROFL!!! Powerful!??? As ever MSNBC continues to show its dedication to impartial, unbiased reporting.

combo-x-box?

[geoff lane]

Will it record TV while playing a game?

Probably not.

Pointless.

We're not the target market

[matrim99]

Besides the TV, let's look at all the extra "stuff" the average person can hook up to their "Honme Entertainment System": 5.1 Stereo & speakers, Cable/Sat box, DVD, VCR1/2, Tivo-like recording device, game console. You can buy each of those "add-ons" for under $200 at the most, so they're attainable to your "average" consumer.

Do you realize what a major pain in the ass it would be to hook up all those separate devices for your average person who can't even figure out how to program their VCR's clock? *THAT* will stop the masses from buying some (or all) of those components, not the cost. Read: loads of average people who WANT to spend their cash on these add-ons, but won't because the entry knowledge is simply too much for them to bother learning.

This is where the "do everything" boxes come in. All you have to do is plug in perhaps 4 wires, all color-coded, and *viola*! Instant home entertainment center with all the bells and whistles.

Now your average /. reader won't go for these all-in-one boxes, because we are willing to deal with the learning/troubleshooting curve to get everything hooked up correctly in order to get the *exact* components that we want.

For every /. reader, or "home-entertainment buff", there are at least 100 people who just want to plug in a few wires and *have the darn thing work*. It's with that majority that the big bucks are.

Where have I heard this before?

[fw3]

Though it is unclear whether such a product will ever be built, its core concept appears to have the backing of Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates, who wrote in an internal memorandum in January

So much for other companies trying to raise funding to develop products in this market.

Oft-observed MS behavior:

• see a new technology;
• (sidebar: contact nascent developers of the new tecnology and express interest in 'partnership', get a feel for their approach);
• write press release announcing newest MS brainstorm, including vagues statements about timing;
• watch competition die off;
• maybe develop the technology, maybe not

Re:Where have I heard this before?

[freeBill]

My addenda are not in italics:

Oft-observed MS behavior:

• see a new technology

usually when developers start calling their developer assistance lines with code that should work according to the API documentation;

(sidebar: contact nascent developers of the new technology and express interest in 'partnership,' get a feel for their approach) allowing architecture and marketing people at MS to get a clear idea of the philosophy behind the code they already have in their possession;

write press release announcing newest MS brainstorm, including vague statements about timing while rewriting code to take advantage of undocumented hooks to more solid and efficient parts of the Windows API;

watch competition die off or release a new version of Windows in which the actual innovators' code won't run, but the secret-API code will;

maybe develop the technology, maybe not or promise Version 2.0 will have all the things people want, but can only get from the original innovator

Re:Where have I heard this before?

[Eryq]

How to deal with these PR releases, then?

Simple. Just ignore them, and do what you were planning to do before they came out. And convince others to do likewise.

Remember, the MS PR dept is not telling you what the company will actually do... it's telling you what they want investors (and competitors) to think it's going to do.

Yes, this is true for all companies, but MS seems say "oh, us too, we do that" more often than most, perhaps precisely for the "watch competition die off" point you mention.

Heck, if you can hang in there long enough, MS will probably eliminate most of your competition for you, then hopefully get bored and move onto promoting their Next Big Thing.

Ooooooh, I just can't wait...

[RobinH]

Ooooooh, I just can't wait until I can get Nimda on my Television!

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[snatchitup]

Not to mention the fact that Freon is compatible with the compressors they operate in. It doesn't corrode like the others mentioned.

I heard a story on Freon in that if you check it out. The patent is expiring, or has expired. The company owning the patent (Dupont?) for fear of losing liscensing revenue has invented a new refrigerant and lobbied alongside the Greenie Weenies to outlaw Freon.

Follow the $'s dummy.

Disaster

[ONOIML8]

"...we all know what a disaster the actual chemical Freon was."

Big assumption there cuz I don't know about any disaster. I do know that Freon had some very important uses in refrigeration and electronics which saved lives and improved the quality of life for millions.

How about just reporting the news without the emotional enviromental bullshit panic phrases. Thanks.

Re:Disaster

[Lordrashmi]

Actually your the one who is lacking intelligence. Dupont, the patent holders on Freon started the incredible shit storm surrounding it just as there patent was about to expire. If they had let it simply expire, any company would have been able to manufacture it, introducing competition which would have hurt Duponts monopoly.

So what does dupont do? Simple, tell everyone that Freon will destroy the world, get it banned and introduce a replacement. Voila, they have a safe monopoly again.

Re:Disaster

[Dutchmaan]

How silly of all those scientists to have come up with reproducible chemical equations showing how harmful Freon is...

..and all along it was Dupont marketing protecting their monopoly... I feel so foolish. Thank you for letting me see the light.

If it did Quicken and a handful of other apps ...

[BitMan]

Then Microsoft would have a seller! I've written on this before.

I don't know why Microsoft doesn't take advantage of its PC dependence and use that to keep them on the Windows platform. I mean, if you've got the capabilities in the unit, why not exploit them as much as you can? Especially in a set top unit that would be easier to maintain than a PC, but will do everything that 50% of what homes need?

Sure, there are issues with the screen display, but when it comes to balancing your checkbook, checking your on-line porforlio, writing simple letters, and a few other details that a good 50% of homes use, it's sufficient. Most of us /.'ers will still have a PC, but most home users aren't as savvy. A set-top box would be much better, since the PC is far too much more them. They just want gaming, TV recording, Internet browsing, checkbook balancing, investment tracking and writing letters -- nothing more. Heck, if it ran Quicken, I'd probably buy it (a 100% Linux user, both at work and home, for the last 4 years!).

I don't know why I'm the only one that seems to see this? I also don't know why Nokia or some other company in the TV Linux Alliance hasn't been able to team up with AT&T, the regional Bells, etc... to offer such a Linux-based "set-top box" for their cable (or, limitedly, DSL) subscribers yet. I've heard rumors, but nothing solid yet. If Microsoft wants to "take over," it should make a move on this. But, instead, it looks like they'll keep doing the "minimum required" combined with "dumping" and losing to other vendors again and again and again at a huge loss. And they probably won't wake up until someone else has a 50% marketshare with one of these devices either.

Marketing sabotage?

[markmoss]

I've long suspected that MS marketing had been infiltrated by Linux and Mac fanatics. That it still sells just proves how damned little these fanatics understand about users and corporate purchasing decisions...

OTOH, maybe MS has a large secret slushfund to hire people to post utterly over-the-top pro-Linux messages and make the real Linuxers look like idiots. And to write Linux how-to's that take you through a dozen typed commands when most distros have a simple GUI program to do the same thing in 3 mouse clicks.

WebTV rebates?

[randomErr]

I wonder if WebTV users will get a $200 rebate to upgrade to the new Freon system, with a 3 year subscription to MSN?

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[markmoss]

The process that happens inside a refrigeration system is based on physics. It does not matter which gas.

It definitely does matter. Freon isn't just a gas in a refrigerator; it liquefies when it is compressed and gives up heat to the outside air, then evaporates _quickly_ when the pressure is released in the cooling coils. This takes the right variation of the boiling point with pressure. To get just the right physical characteristics in Freon, they tried substituting various numbers of flourine and chlorine atoms for hydrogen atoms in hydrocarbons. And as a bonus, it turns out that Freon is non-poisonous, non-corrosive, and coexists quite well with compressor lubricants.

Nothing else works quite as well. Water and alcohol have too high boiling points (and might be bad for the pipes and bearings too). CO2 requires a quite high pressure to liquefy. Ammonia is as toxic as cyanide. R134a (similar to Freon but with only carbon, hydrogen, and flourine atoms) is not quite as good at lubricating or at refrigerating.

By the way, refrigeration was responsible for only a tiny percentage of the chloroflourocarbons released into the environment. Refrigerators that leak coolant are defective! Spray cans were another tiny percentage. Most of the release was industrial cleaning systems - Freon and similar substances being great solvents that dry quickly, and pose no danger to the workers as long as there's enough ventilation to keep oxygen in the room. Generally these systems would try to recycle the Freon, but it kept leaking out around both ends of the conveyor belt.

Is it upgrade-able?

[randomErr]

Someone mentioned earlier about running out of disc space. Will we be able to plug in a USB hard drive to add a few hours of record time?

It would be cool to offer a way to carry your movies(and games) to friend's house and play them.

FYI: Xbox uses a modified USB port for all external devices. Thus a USB device could be used as a travel device.

Sounds like DaveDina

[Cpyder]

Game console, PVR, ... sounds like Digital Audio & Video Entertainment and Digital Interactive Networked Amusement to me... or in short DAVEDINA, a project doing all of this under Linux.. Check it out, it's cool, it's almost apt-gettable and it's free (beer/speech)!

X-Box and Freon will run the same games!

[Juju]

The idea is just to add a bigger hard disk and a TV tuner to add some Tivo functionalities to the X-Box.
I doubt it they will make a $500 console and expect people to make games only for that console. This is never going to work!!!

Is this the "plan of the week"

[prisoner]

club or what? I remember reading an interview with Gates a long time ago where he related in reasonable detail the early days of MS. His viewpoint then was that they were lucky to have survived as they were just thrashing about. The more time goes on, the more I think that this is even more true today. They *do* have a bazillion dollars in the bank nowadays but they seem to have adopted the "trial ballon" approach to everything and are still thrashing. I do give them a lot of credit though, once they latch onto something (like the internet) you can forget about it. It only took a couple of months and they where fighting it out with every other company on the planet to see who could get more "internet" into their products.

Compatibility advantage... PS2???

[Andy Dodd]

Clearly "standard components" are not needed for backwards compatibility if you do things right.

PS2 - Need I say more?

Re:The best part...

[haggar]

You are wrong. Freon and most other CFCs do reach the Ionosphere, where they are broken down into chlorine and fluorites (fluor can's stay in pure state, it's too reactive). It's these that work on destroying the O3 molecules, and causing, as a consequence, an alarming increase in melanomas (skin cancer, to oversimplify it).

It's a very real threat, ask the people down under.

Not totally...

[Andy Dodd]

Needless to say, once you've paid the price of a retrofit, it's not much more to fix the condenser capacity issue.

Solution 1: Get a new condenser from a newer car. Best if done at the same time as the retrofit. They run $150-200.

Solution 2: The cheap one, and one I plan on implementing soon. (My A/C is borderline - It cools, but it sometimes takes a while, as opposed to my heat which comes up within a minute or two) Solution 2 is to install an auxiliary fan in front of the condenser that is hooked to the A/C clutch circuit. This will provide additional cooling capacity. Some cars need it more than others - I know of a guy with a Toyota minivan - It wouldn't cool down at all until it was moving 50+ until the owner installed a fan. My Dodge Spirit is borderline, but cools whether standing or moving - Because the main radiator fan is already set to turn on full-time whenever the A/C is turned on. (As opposed to only under certain speed/temp conditions)

quality of this discussion

[rnd()]

There have been times in the past when I have wondered if anyone at Microsoft (Gates perhaps) reads Slashdot. I can honestly say that this discussion is not of a high enough quality that anyone at Microsoft would gain anything from it. This might just be a trend at /. as of late, but the quality of discussion and level of critical thought sinks through the floor whenever a story about Microsoft is posted. Oddly, there are typically one or two Microsoft stories posted to /. every day. Why can't the /. community get the chip off its collective shoulder and remember the fascination that got us interested in computers/technology in the first place. What a bunch of cynical bozos.

Re:quality of this discussion

[gerardrj]

...remember the fascination that got us interested in computers/technology in the first place.

You insinuate that Microsoft was that 'fascination'. I must state that in my case that is most certainly not the way it happened. Granted, I'm an oddball, but I first got hooked on mainframes. My dad worked on IBM mainframes and would take me to work from time to time.

From there, I went to Tandy's CoCo, TI's 99/4a and the Commodore 64. After that: Unix worstations and Macs. I've owned an IBM PC or clone from time to time, just to tinker with, but I can't recall that Windows or any Wintel system caused any facination or modivation in me. Microsoft has in fact almost continually obfisticated or restricted everything that facinates me most about computers and in particular programming.

Re:quality of this discussion

[rnd()]

You insinuate that Microsoft was that 'fascination'.

I didn't mean to make that insinuation at all. My first computer was a TI 99/4a, followed a few years later by an Apple //c. It was still a few years after that before I got my first PC clone (actually, it was an original IBM XT).

I don't understand why so many /. readers spend so much energy hating Microsoft. If they spent the equivalent energy writing great OSS code, Microsoft wouldn't stay in business long.

My point is that technology can be cool no matter who wrote it or who sells it (or gives it away). I think it will be exciting to have one more device in the TiVO space, and it will be interesting to see if Microsoft's device lets you skip commercials.

Re:quality of this discussion

[gerardrj]

I agree with that. The problem is that so many people in the world prefer to direct their energy toward the path of least resistance.

In this case, the path of least resistance is complaining/whining ahout what they consider to be the evil empire. The constructive route of providing alternatives to that empire are considered too difficult and so they just whine.

It's a shame really, because you can learn enough C or C++ in a week or two to get started in programming; at least in modifying existing code or expanding it. While coding does require skill and thought, one could always just write documentation.

But then again, if the population would actually apply itself, instead of always being a 'victim', we wouldn't need the government. People like the government: it does things for them. Then the people can just watch TV and complain (about the government).

Re:blatant reporting bias

[fizzychicken]

Although I agree that MSNBC is totally biased, I've got to correct you about your estimation of the PS2 vs XBox.

I'm a console programmer, and I've worked on both the PS2 and the XBox. The libraries included with the XBox are a load better than the ones included with the PS2. As is the hardware. XBox kicks PS2 on everything but fill-rate.

The dev-kit is also cheaper, and comes with a full suite of dev tools - something the PS2 dev-kit doesn't do. As much as MS get's deserved grief here on /. it's dangerous to ignore the facts.

Re: Xbox failure outside US

[Mongoose]

Besides having ~5 games that would sell in the market of Japan:

1. They released machines that damaged several users game and dvd discs in Japan at launch

3. They took about a month or two to admit it was broken

4. They replace xboxes

5. They will never replace damaged media

I don't care if you're selling bread or negative io n hairdryers -- you must have consumer support on level with your service. Even the WonderSwan is kicking Xbox in the balls in sells. It's like Y2800 or something! ( ~Y122 : 1 USD )

Japan the same nation that won't put Snow Brand Milk/Foods out of bussiness for countless near yearly food posionings of school children won't even take that. (Humor) =)

Um, what about patents?

[ryanvm]

I'm not quite sure how MS plan's on evading the patent issue. Unfortunately for Microsoft, the PVR industry is laden with patents like a minefield. Both TiVo and ReplayTV hold a number of them on PVR technology. Unless these companies plan on surviving on license fees like a tick on Microsoft's neck, it seems to me like Microsoft is going to have quite a wait (about 15 years) before it can get into the PVR biz.

Re:Um, what about patents?

[marick]

Yeah, well, they did buy WebTV long ago (rumor has it they bought it so they could kill WebTV's Java plans), and they released their own UltimateTV a couple of years ago. Both of these were PVRs...

Re:Possible MS Project Names - bad chemicals

[ReelOddeeo]

Introducing Microsoft Agent Orange!

This remote agent is downloaded into your computer overnight by Microsoft. It works behind the scenes in your computer to help keep it secure. (against you, the enemy) While you're using your computer, Agent Orange is hard at work maintaining the integrity and security of your system.

Microsoft Agent Orange can also notify you of special offers that you might be interested in. Such as how to increase the length of your... oh wait.

evil dupont

[gripdamage]

Not that I want you all to think I'm a big pothead or something; I always hear potheads saying crap like this, but... I heard it was also DuPont who led the charge to get marijuana listed as a controlled substance, supposedly because their artificial carpet fibers were hopelessly inferior to hemp. Anyone know if this is fact?

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[afidel]

Also, freon and its sister chemicals only accounted for a very small percentage of the free chlorine radicals in the upper atmosphere. In fact one volcanic eruption in south america in the early 90's spewed about 10 times as much chlorine into the upper atmosphere as all the industrial chemicals user in human history! Now because of its stable configuration freon has a disproportionate effect, but it is still estimated by some scientists that volcanic activity has had 2 orders of magnitude more impact on the ozone layer than human activity during the period since industrial revolution.

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[markmoss]

It's also interesting to note that, after it was essentially banned in the U.S., Freon was one of the most smuggled substances into the country.

I don't know about that, but back in 1995 we paid $5,000 for one barrel of freon to run a solvent cleaner for electronic circuit boards until the FDA finally approved the water-wash process. What's funny is that this plant had never had a solvent cleaner in the 11 years it was running before we picked up that damned medical equipment contract...

Let me get this straight...

[Guppy06]

Microsoft is slowly but surely losing the current console war. They're still behind their major competitor (Sony) and, while they may be ahead of or behind Nintendo, they don't have Nintendo's ability to make money no matter what place they're in (observe N64). And now they want to make sure to pour cement into Xbox's grave by bringing out a new console already? This is up there with Sega's 32X/Saturn fiasco.

Somebody needs to inform Microsoft that this is not the PC industry. They may or may not be able to psych out Sony a bit, but Yamauchi is too much of a miserable old curmudgeon to do anything but laugh at Microsoft for this one.

Oh, and let's not forget that the "set top box" concept has yet to pan out (or even be fully realized) for it to be a profitable idea for Sony or Microsoft (ie. people aren't turning away from the GameCube simply because it doesn't play DVDs).

About the only effect I've heard of that this concept has had in the industry is that launch titles got burned as people bought the PlayStation 2 but no games (people got it as a new DVD player). From that experience alone Microsoft may drive away possible game writers as they try to put more and more functionality in to Xbox2.

I think its appropriate.

[Gannoc]

Once you have Freon, it costs a lot of money to dispose of it.

Re:Wont work, here's why.

[Mulletproof]

"...Freon box will need to be continually updated."

I wouldn't think this is a huge obstacle. Really. If the thing has a hard drive then updating is a issue unless it were something major. Um, I use my XBox (cue flaming) as my primary (read: only) DVD player and i have to ask why is it hype? Kind of a logical step if you ask me. Your console plays DVD games, why not movies in the same format. Damn useful if you ask me. Which you didn't. But if you did...

"So what happens if just one of the 3 components breaks?"

First, what 3 components are you talking about? The DVD, HD and..? Motherboard? But even without knowing what those components are, the answer is simple- Fix/buy a new one or do without. The more capabilities a unit has, the easier it is to stop up the plumbing, naturally. It goes with the territory of any technology and it's something you have to live with. Other technologies have this inherent problem yet they thrive. Go figure.

"Microsofts track record for defects with the XBox"

Huh. Source please. Link it. The only ones I know of was a small batch of the consoles were scratching disks in Japan and I had my friend mention one overheating as a display model, but that's all I've heard, and since I own one, I like to think I listen for that sort of news. And as much as I love the PS1 I have to mention that it had it's share of issues depite it's popularity, namely the laser assembly burning out or jamming prematurally (discounting hot-swapping of import CDs). I know /. is an MS haters club, but come on...

"because they didn't want a hunk of plastic that didn't work after 2 years"

If it's anything close to an Xbox, the damn thing is as close to a computer as it'll get. And unlike a computer, it doesn't nessisarily need to be at the cutting edge of technology. I don't see us moving away from DVDs anytime soon. Will TV be changing that rapidly to make this obsolete in 2 years? What, exactly, will make this hardware obsolete? I agree that ll technology has a finite shelf life, but PVR? As long as you can update the software, technology like this will have a long lifespan.

Maybe it won't work, but your "why" needs a few less holes.

So, Bill Gates spent a week...

[freeBill]

...playing videogames on non-MS consoles. I wish I could justify that as a "think week." He should have spent it contemplating the following sequence of events:

1. Enron
2. sombody else
3. WorldCom
4. Xerox

Re:A step in the right direction

[arivanov]

p.s. Freon was not such a disaster. I'd have loved to have an exclusive patent to Freon for a few years

It was an environmental disaster. At the same time it was a huge commercial success.

After it was banned the companies who manufactured CFCs simply switched to other stuff. They practically did not lose money on this. All was payed by the consumers. So yes, I agree with you. I 'd love to have one of those as well.

Treason!!!

[Mulletproof]

What? And shed that elitist image by catering to a large segment of the sales population? You must be joking?! Make Linux popular with the masses!?!? And actually compete with MS?! You, my man, are insane.

Dumb Terminals in the Living Room

[Vegan Pagan]

The only way I can see that content creator-approved "multimedia convergence" and content on demand in the living room will happen is through dumb terminals on broadband.

The MPAA and RIAA, and eventually ISDA, will only feel safe when their content/software resides nowhere in the world but on a few dozen hard drives in their offices. Only dumb terminals can let them to do that and still provide all the conveniences and flexibility comparable to the WWW. And since they'll demand maximum DRM, they'll thus demand minimum client-side caching, which means each client will need lots of bandwith and very low latency.

As long as Microsoft is talking about giving consumers hard drives, they won't have the content provider's cooperation.

Microsoft and the media conglomerates

[Infonaut]

This is interesting. The closer they get to some form of gaming/TV convergence, the more Microsoft will have to deal with the potential conflicts of interest between their hardware and software efforts.

Microsoft has always come down heavily in favor of aggressively protecting copyrighted material. They support the media giants in their efforts to make copy-proof one-time use media. They are talking about integrating code checking (intellectual property validation by another name) into future OS releases.

They've always taken this stance because first and foremost, they're a software company. But now they're moving into hardware. Companies like Dell and Apple, which have been up in arms about the media conglomerates' strong-arm tactics, have a vested interest in standing up for fair-use rights as computers become more tightly integrated with media creation and playback.

So far Microsoft has skirted the issue with ReplayTV, but if they try to take TV integration to the next level, they'll run smack-dab into the media giants.

Of course, based on their history, MS is likely to make deals with the media giants that restrict fair use by creating micropayment schemes or some other method of tracking and billing users for the wonderful things they're doing with the TV/game box.

This would alienate users in droves, especially when there are plenty of other competitors out there who aren't primarily software companies. Of course, MS could just wait for the hardware companies to do all the hard work of fighting the intellectual property battles with the media industry. Then they could step in after the dust clears, and reap the benefits without exposing themselves.

Whatever happens, Microsoft is literally getting so big and diversified that some of its products are bound to compete with each other in significant ways. I wonder, can Bill, as clever as he is, continue to advance Microsoft on all fronts without at some point having to scale back his ambitions?

Re: The Environment

[ackthpt]

If freon contains CFCs and eats up the ozone layer, what will MS Freon do?

Freeze competition out of your living room, you had to ask?

BTW, when MS blows it again, you can't dump your electronic trash in China, so might as well pack it up and send it to Redmond, let the Beast's home state deal with it.

Microsoft already makes a PVR

[Animats]

It's called Ultimate TV, and it's only offered for one of the direct-broadcast satellite services. They haven't tried to market it more broadly. Unclear why.

Re:Microsoft already makes a PVR

[Phil Wilkins]

...because no-one really wants to get into bed with Microsoft? They do have a terrible habit of eating their partners alive.

Oh yes, and because they were incredibly late with a recent set-top box contract. There was quite a bit of coverage on this on the Register IIRC.

Console makers always overpromise.

[Vegan Pagan]

MS is just following the console tradition of talking about three consoles for every one they actually bring to market.

When Nintendo made the NES, they talked about making it a "Trojan Horse" that would bring content on demand and online shopping, including stock trading, to the living room. They also talked about several SNES CD-ROM drives and a N64 disk drive. And they talked about Game Boy Advance six years before they brought it to market.

Sony talked about PlayStation 2, 3 and 4 back in 1995.

Atari talked about their 16-bit console "Panther" in 1991, and Matsushita talked about the 3DO "M2" in 1996. They marketed neither.

Sega did actually bring out every console they promised, but only the Genesis / Mega Drive was profitable. They tried to support 11 others that lost money, including unheard-of combinations like Genesis + Sega CD + 32X.

Engineering Code of Ethics

[Coward Anonymous]

Maybe it is about time Microsoft engineers read the Software Engineering Code of Ethics. Specifically, their duty to the public at large.

Re:what about the environment?

[matrix29]

If freon contains CFCs and eats up the ozone layer, what will MS Freon do?

Destroy all my linux distribution CDs?

Contain all of the suckiness of ULTIMATE TV boxes (which will be cannibalized for this project), the "Green/Blue Screen of Death" of ALL MICROSOFT CRAPWARE, the Megalomaniacal desires of the Uber-Spoiled-Rich-Boy-Nerd, a Fast-Forward "Commercial Skip" button which will be advertised to death until it is revoked in Version 2.00001 (one day after release) so Billy Gates can suck up more advertising dollars from obnoxious marketing drones, zero of the features promised working correctly, billions of lines of mega-patched (never rewritten) buggy spaghetti code, a ticket price of $500, a monthly user fee of $19.95 so you can actually use the crapware's "Program Guide" (failure to pay will result in disabling of all features until payment is received), and an internal (overpriced) cellphone so Gates can update your guide & spy on your viewing habits & disable people smart enough to hack out the MS-Crapware(TM)+ Report them to the BSA + DMCA goonsquad.

I figure a 33% sales rate nationwide as that was the percentage last election that was moronic enough to vote for a Drug-Addict Son-Of-A-Bush who's lifetime incompetence, corruption, and treason is sadly obvious to most every thinking American (except that hardcore moron-base of 33%).

Re:blatant reporting bias

[Phil Wilkins]

> XBox kicks PS2 on everything but fill-rate...

...user base, manufacturing costs, spatial efficiency, game library, size of developer community.

As another console programmer, I'd agree that the PS2 tools are still playing catch-up with the x-box tools. However, since the market for PS2 games is like 10 times the size of that for the x-box, the development costs for a PS2 title could be up to 10 times that of an x-box title and it'd still be more profitable in terms of return on investment. (NB this is an incredibly crude analysis, but the fundamentals are important).

Oh, and the x-box is in no way a beemer (the 'cube is the beemer in this metaphor), much more like a cadillac. Big, expensive, over-specced, looks much more impressive than it actually is.

Re:Change of focus again ?

[Phil Wilkins]

I put this change of focus down to a renewed power grab from the WebTV / UltimateTV group.

"But Gates left a glimmer of hope for the WebTV team. [...] This fateful suggestion turned into a new form of the old Microsoft strategy tax, slowing down the Xbox again." here

Perspective Correction

[Phil Wilkins]

> my PS2 is practically the same size

No Dougal, the PS2 is small, the x-box is far away.

Offtopic - Bad Product Names. Re:funny names

[Geek In Training]

Offtopic for this story, but ontopic for this thread:

Strange though it seems, surely this can be the only explanation for an OS called 'winCE'...

I thought that one was bad, but not nearly as bad as the Audi sport sedan, the TT. Just look at it drive by, AudiTT on the bumper as it zooms past.

But think about it for a moment: why would you market an expensive car, aimed at high-class clientelle such as lawyers and accountants, and call it the auditt? It's not the Audi T T, it's the Audit!

DUH!

BMW versus Toyota?!

[dstone]

While "the Xbox is a full-feature BMW, the PS2 is a Toyota," says Bruno Bonnell, chairman and chief executive of French game maker Infogrames Entertainment SA.

Bruno's point can be taken either way. Okay, so he's French and there's probably some Euro-snobbery going on here. But consider that a fast, cheap, and arguably more reliable Toyota MR2 Spyder or Celica GT can give any "full-feature" BMW (read: bloated/luxurious) a good run in the real world. This is gaming. We're talking entertainment here. Bang for the buck. Not prestige or old reputation!

Playing both sides

[Infonaut]

That's a scary thought indeed. I hadn't really thought about it that way, but do you think they'll be able to pull that off with television? They don't seem to have as much leverage in the MPEG, and broadcasters have a built-in aversion to any one company calling the shots on the technical end.

It seems to me that as they enter the TV market, they're dealing with a different kind of animal than they're used to. Of course, they've been working hand in glove with NBC for some time now, so they've doubtless learned a lot from the experience.

That's the thing about Microsoft. You can never count them out, because they can afford to hemmorage money and make colossal mistakes, because their pockets are so deep.

It will be interesting (in the "may you live in interesting times" sort of way), regardless of how it turns out.

Re: here's the _correct_ 3 step version

[fferreres]

Step 1: Find a big niche, saturate the market at dumping prices, lose lots of money but make sure competitors lose more money than they can afford to lose.
Step 2: ??????
Step 3: Profit

Well, we all know it works, and what the ???????? stands for.

Not the first.

[Martin Spamer]

I think that some of the marketing/PR people of MS have been sick / on holidays / away these times

This is not a first for MS Marketing.

The # symbol is read/verbalised as Hash in UK English; So C# is:

a C Hash - A messed-up or muddled C.
or
C-hash - Cash.

Your choice :)

Disaster vs. Proven Harmful

[ONOIML8]

I had to read what I posted several times and still I don't see where I claimed that Freon wasn't harmful to the enviroment. Actually I'm sure it was in some way.

What I said was that it was not a disaster. Floods, volcano eruptions, earthquakes, airplanes crashing into buildings.....these things are disasters.

If you're really wondering how it saved lives, take the time to do a little research into how Freon was used. Go visit an HVAC technician. Drop an email to Dupont. Talk to a doctor. But at least take the time to find out and don't let the enviromental extremests rule your thinking with their emotional plays.

True, maybe Freon wasn't the best thing in the long run. Same with R12, it was just as bad. But until we knew better it was used for good, not evil.

I a just so sick and fucking tired of comments like that being thrown into what should be reported as news. Yes, Microsoft sucks because of their strong arm tactics and lack of quality in their products. But that bit about Freon being a "disaster" had no place in the story, it was simply an enviromental wacko dig and had no place in the story.

Freon - a perfect name for vapourware

[Mandelbrute]

It had to be said.

Good ideas in there though - but absolutly nothing that can't already be cobbled together today by amatuers with a hobby on mac, MS and *nix platforms. Getting it to be cheap will be the challenge.

Freon was patent-free for decades

[Spamalamadingdong]

I hate to come along this late, but I found this comment in meta-mod and... According to this page on Freons, they were patented in 1928. This would have put them ex-patent in 1945.

I think you missed the point

[Spamalamadingdong]

CFCs were being produced world-wide for decades before the ozone layer became a political issue and the Montreal Protocol was implemented to deal with it. Even after that, CFCs were being smuggled into the USA because they are so much cheaper than HFCs. And no, most of them are not manufactured by DuPont and do not carry the Freon trademark. IIRC, China and Mexico are big producers; they were given more time, as "developing countries", to shift to non-depleting refrigerants. Of course, people there have exploited this for everything it's worth (their entrepreneurs are no less smart than our entrepreneurs).

If you think that the ozone-depletion problem is part of a conspiracy to jack up DuPont revenues, you need to check your tinfoil hat, it's leaking.