Microsoft Freon

Veramocor writes "MSNBC.com has an article posted from the WSJ about MS's new plan for living room domination, codenamed Freon. Freon will be capable of 'playing games but also offering television capabilities, such as pausing live TV and recording shows onto a computer hard drive.' The article then goes on to explain future potential business plans for XBox incarnations. The system does seem to have some great advantages. I must question their naming question however, we all know what a disaster the actual chemical Freon was. Here's to hoping, Cheers!" We mentioned the Xbox's planned evolution the other day, too, but without the fancy codename.

Comments

Monotony Report 20020701

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*** Monotony Report - scroll to bottom to see the totals for all
of the stories - MonotonyReport (c)2002 on by,
powered by Delphi (c)Borland. ***

*** Report for: Slashdot | The Hard Business of Selling Hard Drive Platters ***
Total Comments: 165 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 86 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 1.91860465116279
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.267175572519084 (131:35) (21.2121212121212% noise)
First Post: Anonymous Coward //this person got the FP!
Claimed by an AC. //an AC posted and it got modded to -1
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
shepd (5 posts 3.03030303030303%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
returnofthe_spork (1 posts 0.606060606060606%). //lameness sucks
TrollBurger (1 posts 0.606060606060606%). //lameness sucks
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM (1 posts 0.606060606060606%). //lameness sucks
paulschreiber (1 posts 0.606060606060606%). //lameness sucks
Bingo Foo (1 posts 0.606060606060606%). //lameness sucks
gibler (1 posts 0.606060606060606%). //lameness sucks
pwpbot (1 posts 0.606060606060606%). //lameness sucks
YourMissionForToday (1 posts 0.606060606060606%). //lameness sucks
SinisterAngel (1 posts 0.606060606060606%). //lameness sucks
GhostseTroll (1 posts 0.606060606060606%). //lameness sucks
The Porn Count (1 posts 0.606060606060606%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5

*** Report for: Slashdot | Legal Pundits Pan Internet Exceptionalism ***
Total Comments: 217 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 111 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 1.95495495495495
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.245714285714286 (175:43) (19.815668202765% noise)
First Post: gibler //this person got the FP!
Claimed by CLiT. //a logged in troll posted and it is at -1
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
perl_god (22 posts 10.1382488479263%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
perl_god (22 posts 10.1382488479263%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
coyote-san (2 posts 0.921658986175115%). //comment second
evilviper (2 posts 0.921658986175115%). //comment second

*** Report for: Slashdot | Anonymous Will Award $200,000 for Xbox Linux ***
Total Comments: 380 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 194 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 1.95876288659794
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.0583333333333333 (360:21) (5.52631578947368% noise)
First Post: Anonymous Coward //this person got the FP!
Claimed by an AC. //an AC posted and it got modded to -1
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
MyHair (24 posts 6.31578947368421%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
CmdrTaco (troll) (9 posts 2.36842105263158%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
FigBugDeux (3 posts 0.789473684210526%). //comment second
Bouncings (3 posts 0.789473684210526%). //comment second
kwishot (3 posts 0.789473684210526%). //comment second
zulux (3 posts 0.789473684210526%). //comment second
seanadams.com (3 posts 0.789473684210526%). //comment second
lingqi (3 posts 0.789473684210526%). //comment second

*** Report for: Slashdot | Tom's Guide to Water Cooling ***
Total Comments: 144 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 82 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 1.75609756097561
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.0902255639097744 (133:12) (8.33333333333333% noise)
First Post: TRoLLaXoR //this person got the FP!
Claimed by CLiT. //a logged in troll posted and it is at -1
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
Vought 28 (10 posts 6.94444444444444%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
TRoLLaXoR (2 posts 1.38888888888889%). //lameness sucks
perl_god (2 posts 1.38888888888889%). //lameness sucks
Bingo Foo (2 posts 1.38888888888889%). //lameness sucks
Myuu (2 posts 1.38888888888889%). //lameness sucks
pwpbot (2 posts 1.38888888888889%). //lameness sucks
The Porn Count (2 posts 1.38888888888889%). //lameness sucks
YourMissionForToday (2 posts 1.38888888888889%). //lameness sucks
Anonymous Pancake (2 posts 1.38888888888889%). //lameness sucks
larry bagina (2 posts 1.38888888888889%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
PhysicsGenius (2 posts 1.38888888888889%). //comment second
Zen Mastuh (2 posts 1.38888888888889%). //comment second

*** Report for: Slashdot | Buffy Staked Again By Emmys ***
Total Comments: 352 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 151 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 2.33112582781457
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.103125 (320:33) (9.375% noise)
First Post: CmdrTaco (troll) //this person got the FP!
Claimed by CLiT. //a logged in troll posted and it is at -1
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
Anonvmous Coward (14 posts 3.97727272727273%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
Gabber Piet (6 posts 1.70454545454545%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
gwernol (2 posts 0.568181818181818%). //comment second
Golias (2 posts 0.568181818181818%). //comment second
dattaway (2 posts 0.568181818181818%). //comment second
ajs (2 posts 0.568181818181818%). //comment second

*** Report for: Slashdot | SSH-Based Solutions - Looking for Industry Proof? ***
Total Comments: 316 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 167 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 1.89221556886228
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.0566666666666667 (300:17) (5.37974683544304% noise)
First Post: Archangel Michael //this person got the FP!
Claimed by a dumbass. //FP not at -1 at all
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
rjamestaylor (12 posts 3.79746835443038%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
Fecal Troll Matter (3 posts 0.949367088607595%). //lameness sucks
pwpbot (3 posts 0.949367088607595%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
Bagheera (5 posts 1.58227848101266%). //comment second

*** Report for: Slashdot | All Sourceforge.net Being Blocked by SmartFilter ***
Total Comments: 426 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 217 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 1.963133640553
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.0414634146341463 (410:17) (3.9906103286385% noise)
First Post: L0rdkariya //this person got the FP!
Claimed by CLiT. //a logged in troll posted and it is at -1
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
ivan_13013 (30 posts 7.04225352112676%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
pwpbot (6 posts 1.40845070422535%). //lameness sucks
Seth Finkelstien (6 posts 1.40845070422535%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
www.sorehands.com (3 posts 0.704225352112676%). //comment second
Jucius Maximus (3 posts 0.704225352112676%). //comment second
Grax (3 posts 0.704225352112676%). //comment second
Squareball (3 posts 0.704225352112676%). //comment second
tijsvd (3 posts 0.704225352112676%). //comment second
Copperhead (3 posts 0.704225352112676%). //comment second
cpeterso (3 posts 0.704225352112676%). //comment second
User 956 (3 posts 0.704225352112676%). //comment second
Col. Klink (retired) (3 posts 0.704225352112676%). //comment second
wackybrit (3 posts 0.704225352112676%). //comment second
pogle (3 posts 0.704225352112676%). //comment second

*** Report for: Slashdot | Snort Creator Makes Good ***
Total Comments: 276 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 70 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 3.94285714285714
Signal:Noise ratio 1:1.9468085106383 (94:183) (66.304347826087% noise)
First Post: L0rdkariya //this person got the FP!
Claimed by CLiT. //a logged in troll posted and it is at -1
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
L0rdkariya (16 posts 5.79710144927536%). //comment here
DonkeyHote (16 posts 5.79710144927536%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
L0rdkariya (16 posts 5.79710144927536%). //lameness sucks
DonkeyHote (16 posts 5.79710144927536%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
cp4 (4 posts 1.44927536231884%). //comment second
carlos_benj (4 posts 1.44927536231884%). //comment second
MisterBlister (4 posts 1.44927536231884%). //comment second
Myshkin (4 posts 1.44927536231884%). //comment second
User 956 (4 posts 1.44927536231884%). //comment second
saintlupus (4 posts 1.44927536231884%). //comment second

*** Report for: Slashdot | Ask 'Rocket Guy' Brian Walker ***
Total Comments: 244 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 124 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 1.96774193548387
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.276041666666667 (192:53) (21.7213114754098% noise)
First Post: Anonymous Coward //this person got the FP!
Claimed by an AC. //an AC posted and it got modded to -1
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
DonkeyHote (31 posts 12.7049180327869%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
DonkeyHote (31 posts 12.7049180327869%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
crow (4 posts 1.63934426229508%). //comment second
crystalplague (4 posts 1.63934426229508%). //comment second
Alien54 (4 posts 1.63934426229508%). //comment second
peterdaly (4 posts 1.63934426229508%). //comment second
Local Loop (4 posts 1.63934426229508%). //comment second

*** Report for: Slashdot | LotR Two Towers Trailer Online ***
Total Comments: 358 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 195 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 1.83589743589744
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.0780780780780781 (333:26) (7.26256983240223% noise)
First Post: Anonymous Coward //this person got the FP!
Claimed by a dumbass. //FP not at -1 at all
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
geomon (10 posts 2.79329608938547%). //comment here
Anonvmous Coward (10 posts 2.79329608938547%). //comment here
carlos_benj (10 posts 2.79329608938547%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
neal n bob (6 posts 1.67597765363128%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
AltGrendel (2 posts 0.558659217877095%). //comment second
geomon (2 posts 0.558659217877095%). //comment second
carlos_benj (2 posts 0.558659217877095%). //comment second
ElJefe (2 posts 0.558659217877095%). //comment second
daeley (2 posts 0.558659217877095%). //comment second
User 956 (2 posts 0.558659217877095%). //comment second
Dark Paladin (2 posts 0.558659217877095%). //comment second
jonabbey (2 posts 0.558659217877095%). //comment second
MAXOMENOS (2 posts 0.558659217877095%). //comment second
reverius (2 posts 0.558659217877095%). //comment second
Picass0 (2 posts 0.558659217877095%). //comment second

*** Report for: Slashdot | 802.11 Networks, The Definitive Guide ***
Total Comments: 89 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 50 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 1.78
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.304347826086957 (69:21) (23.5955056179775% noise)
First Post: l33t j03 //this person got the FP!
Claimed by CLiT. //a logged in troll posted and it is at -1
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
cpfeifer (4 posts 4.49438202247191%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
l33t j03 (3 posts 3.37078651685393%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
mccalli (1 posts 1.12359550561798%). //comment second
Rupert (1 posts 1.12359550561798%). //comment second
morcheeba (1 posts 1.12359550561798%). //comment second

*** Report for: Slashdot | One Billion Computers Sold Worldwide ***
Total Comments: 227 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 131 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 1.73282442748092
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.0555555555555556 (216:12) (5.2863436123348% noise)
First Post: L0rdkariya //this person got the FP!
Claimed by CLiT. //a logged in troll posted and it is at -1
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
hendridm (14 posts 6.16740088105727%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
propstoalldeadhomiez (4 posts 1.76211453744493%). //lameness sucks
Jean Marie le Penis (4 posts 1.76211453744493%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
hendridm (2 posts 0.881057268722467%). //comment second
ch-chuck (2 posts 0.881057268722467%). //comment second
mekkab (2 posts 0.881057268722467%). //comment second
MsGeek (2 posts 0.881057268722467%). //comment second

*** Report for: Slashdot | The True Story of Website Results ***
Total Comments: 620 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 315 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 1.96825396825397
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.0436974789915966 (595:26) (4.19354838709677% noise)
First Post: Sexual Asspussy //this person got the FP!
Claimed by CLiT. //a logged in troll posted and it is at -1
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
unformed (22 posts 3.54838709677419%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
Sexual Asspussy (8 posts 1.29032258064516%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
CProgrammer98 (2 posts 0.32258064516129%). //comment second
HiThere (2 posts 0.32258064516129%). //comment second
Torgo's Pizza (2 posts 0.32258064516129%). //comment second
FreeUser (2 posts 0.32258064516129%). //comment second
NaturePhotog (2 posts 0.32258064516129%). //comment second
Wingchild (2 posts 0.32258064516129%). //comment second
gregfortune (2 posts 0.32258064516129%). //comment second
naasking (2 posts 0.32258064516129%). //comment second
curunir (2 posts 0.32258064516129%). //comment second
CaffeineAddict2001 (2 posts 0.32258064516129%). //comment second
jonathanjo (2 posts 0.32258064516129%). //comment second
Alien54 (2 posts 0.32258064516129%). //comment second

*** Report for: Slashdot | Drawing For The Blind ***
Total Comments: 78 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 43 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 1.81395348837209
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.385964912280702 (57:22) (28.2051282051282% noise)
First Post: Anonymous Coward //this person got the FP!
Claimed by an AC. //an AC posted and it got modded to -1
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
landay (4 posts 5.12820512820513%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
CProgrammer98 (1 posts 1.28205128205128%). //lameness sucks
Sexual Asspussy (1 posts 1.28205128205128%). //lameness sucks
paradesign (1 posts 1.28205128205128%). //lameness sucks
fizz-beyond (1 posts 1.28205128205128%). //lameness sucks
neal n bob (1 posts 1.28205128205128%). //lameness sucks
sinserve (1 posts 1.28205128205128%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
texchanchan (1 posts 1.28205128205128%). //comment second

*** Report for: Slashdot | Free as in Books? ***
Total Comments: 124 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 71 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 1.74647887323944
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.157407407407407 (108:17) (13.7096774193548% noise)
First Post: Anonymous Coward //this person got the FP!
Claimed by an AC. //an AC posted and it got modded to -1
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
Hellkitten (8 posts 6.45161290322581%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
on by (4 posts 3.2258064516129%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
gilroy (4 posts 3.2258064516129%). //comment second

*** Report for: Slashdot | Space Music ***
Total Comments: 119 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 60 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 1.98333333333333
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.363636363636364 (88:32) (26.890756302521% noise)
First Post: Anonymous Coward //this person got the FP!
Claimed by an AC. //an AC posted and it got modded to -1
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
on by (20 posts 16.8067226890756%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
on by (20 posts 16.8067226890756%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
Glint (2 posts 1.68067226890756%). //comment second
Ilan Volow (2 posts 1.68067226890756%). //comment second

*** Report for: Slashdot | A Foundry in Every Kitchen ***
Total Comments: 292 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 164 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 1.78048780487805
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.158102766798419 (253:40) (13.6986301369863% noise)
First Post: Anonymous Coward //this person got the FP!
Claimed by an AC. //an AC posted and it got modded to -1
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
markmoss (10 posts 3.42465753424658%). //comment here
CProgrammer98 (10 posts 3.42465753424658%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM (8 posts 2.73972602739726%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
dgp (2 posts 0.684931506849315%). //comment second
Kibo (2 posts 0.684931506849315%). //comment second
dc.wander (2 posts 0.684931506849315%). //comment second
Brymouse (2 posts 0.684931506849315%). //comment second
prockcore (2 posts 0.684931506849315%). //comment second
dmiller (2 posts 0.684931506849315%). //comment second
Greyfox (2 posts 0.684931506849315%). //comment second
Saggi (2 posts 0.684931506849315%). //comment second

*** Report for: Slashdot | Copyright Battle Over Nothing ***
Total Comments: 463 //total number of comments posted
Total Posters: 297 //total users who posted
Average Posts per user: 1.55892255892256
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.0334075723830735 (449:15) (3.23974082073434% noise)
First Post: Linus Turdballs //this person got the FP!
Claimed by CLiT. //a logged in troll posted and it is at -1
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments
ObviousGuy (16 posts 3.45572354211663%). //comment here
Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1
flaw1 (7 posts 1.51187904967603%). //lameness sucks
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in): //who got modded up to +5
BlueFall (7 posts 1.51187904967603%). //comment second

*** Report for Todays Front Page ***
Total Comments: 4890
Total Posters: 1923
Average Posts per user: 2.54290171606864
Signal:Noise ratio 1:0.145925752976885 (4283:625) (12.7811860940695% noise)
First Posts:
AC: 7
CLiT: 9
Dumbasses: 2
Victory to the CLiT!
Most Prolific (all scores, logged in):
Vought 28 (51 posts 1.04294478527607%).
Most Noise (-1, logged in):
DonkeyHote (50 posts 1.02249488752556%).
Biggest Whore (+5, logged in):
User 956 (9 posts 0.184049079754601%).
Top 10 Posters (all scores, logged in):
Vought 28 (51 posts 1.04294478527607%).
DonkeyHote (50 posts 1.02249488752556%).
carlos_benj (45 posts 0.920245398773006%).
gmhowell (40 posts 0.81799591002045%).
Anonvmous Coward (39 posts 0.797546012269939%).
pwpbot (38 posts 0.777096114519427%).
mangu (35 posts 0.715746421267894%).
MyHair (34 posts 0.695296523517382%).
unformed (31 posts 0.633946830265849%).
ivan_13013 (30 posts 0.613496932515337%).
Top 10 Noise Makers (-1, logged in):
DonkeyHote (50 posts 1.02249488752556%).
pwpbot (38 posts 0.777096114519427%).
on by (28 posts 0.572597137014315%).
L0rdkariya (26 posts 0.531697341513292%).
perl_god (24 posts 0.49079754601227%).
CmdrTaco (troll) (20 posts 0.408997955010225%).
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM (15 posts 0.306748466257669%).
Dessimat0r (15 posts 0.306748466257669%).
neal n bob (13 posts 0.265848670756646%).
Sexual Asspussy (13 posts 0.265848670756646%).

xnigger

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm currently working on a program called xnigger.

It's sort of like xbill, but instead of stopping bill from taking over machines, you stop a negro slave from stealing jewelry and other items

Re:xnigger

[dcstimm]

only rednecks and idiots would have thought that up and posted it.

Re:xnigger

[perl_god]

only rednecks and idiots would have thought that up and posted it.

Hey, just because you don't agree with someone, that's no reason to accuse them of being an idiot!

Re:xnigger

[Anonymous Coward]

Can I get the icon in powder blue?

The Official Taco-snotting FAQ

[pwpbot]

THE OFFICIAL TACOSNOTTING FAQ By J Wipo Troll Esq Revision 116 This article attempts to document a vile ungodly practice that runs rampant through the homosexual geek and hacker community a practice known as or simply Tacosnotting is something that few geeks dare talk about in free or open conversation but it is nonetheless a widelypracticed and dangerous form of homosexuality If you or anyone you know has ever engaged in Tacosnotting please get professional help before it is too late Why do I keep receiving emails from an individual calling himself You have been receiving unsolicited mailings from a certain Robert Malda owner of the popular technology website slashdotorg Actually itnot a very site in the common sense of the word the site is rife with pimply antisocial geeks and hackers zitfaced nerds communists dirty GNU hippies and other societal rejects and outcasts Italso home to one of the worldlargest suspected prings the infamous crewMr Malda gets bored and who wouldnrunning a site like Slashdot all day he roams through the user database penis in hand looking for people who might enjoy engaging in homosexual activities with him How he determines this is anyoneguess but if you have a homosexualsounding nickname or a nick with a letter of the English alphabet in it youa potential candidateThis time he found you Lucky you Mr Malda seems to be speaking in some sort of code Do you know what it means CmdrTacocode language is relatively easy to decipher This pervert prefers to speak in thinlyveiled sexual innuendo yes thatright he wants you to evade the watchful eye of Slashdotparent corporation VA Software Mr Maldais of course his penis a small withered little thing that lives in his pants and only comes out in the presence of other male geeks or at the beck and call of Maldaown lubedup right hand His bellsare the shriveled testicles that droop beneath his Commander and his sauceis his thin runny semen It should be more than obvious to you now what he means if he asked you to his Taco bellsor his gourmet Taco saucewould also guess CmdrTaco asked you to engage in a practice known as and if he was in a particularly depraved mood at the time a Good Lord And yes he did What is is the term used by Robert Malda to refer to the depraved act of fellating another man homo or heterosexual CmdrTaco is rumoured to prefer raping unwilling victims then blowing the semen out his nose and back onto the face and body of his victim Naturally a long bubbly stream of milkywhite semen is left on CmdrTacoface dribbling out of his nose and down his cheek hence the term if thatnot bad enoughis a Tacosnotting circlejerk another practice common among the Slashdot crew CmdrTaco CowboiKneel and Homos get together and snot each other with their gooey sticky cum spooging their jizzsnot all over each otherfaces and pasty white bodies until theycovered head to toe with their own and each otherman juice This vile ungodly ritual can go on for hours For the homosexual penetration that follows this lengthy foreplay Roblowme is usually there to provide plenty of anal lubricant he owns a limousine service and has ample supplies of motor oil and axle grease ready to goTo complete this perverted orgy fellow faggots Michael Timothy and Jamie will usually join in dressed in tight leather mockSS uniforms jack boots and leather gloves The homosexual shenanigans that follow are nearly beyond description The whole group begins to snot each otherspunk and whip each otherpudgy asses with riding crops and chains until their pale white geek bodies are exhausted and soaked in stinking sweat from the hours of passionate homosexual revelry Ewwwwww So can I stop receiving these emails Hopefully but I wouldncount on itTo begin with you most likely forgot to uncheck the to Snotcheckbox in your account preferences CmdrTaco has probably already got the hots for your wad do you have a homosexualsounding nick and heprobably already been lurking outside your bathroom window for weeks with a camera some tissues and lube just waiting to pounce and declare you his new bitch Thereno escaping a geek in heat trust me so itprobably too late for you but you can possibly rectify this situation To remove yourself from CmdrTacosights log into your Slashdot account go to your user page click on Messages and uncheck the box next to to SnotMaybe heignore you Probably not I canstop receiving these emails from CmdrTaco If you indulge him in a Tacosnot or two he might leave you alone You might also want to look into mail filtering restraining orders or purchasing a heavy blunt object capable of warding off rampaging homosexual geeks in heat Trust me when they chargeoh the humanity If he gets you and you let him Tacosnot all over you you will most likely end up tied up in his basement to be used as his sex slave for the rest of your life or until he accidentally drowns you in spunk in a circlesnot Have you ever been Tacosnotted Unfortunately yes I first met Mr Malda at an Open Source Convention He invited me back to his room for a game of Quake and some Tacosbut when I got there the perverted geek jumped me and handcuffed me to his bed stripping me After taking his out of his pants Mr Taco made me suck the withered thing six times virtually nonstop He then performed his vile Tacosnotting ritual on me three times over the next two hours bringing me to orgasm after orgasm after sweaty mindnumbing orgasmthen he snotted my own thick gooey jizz back onto my face out of his nostrils He snotted me two more times first into my mouth then again on my exposed bellyCmdrTaco invited several of his Open Source or rather Sauceman sauce buddies over to continue their ungodly snotfest European hacker and known Linux Torvalds raped my ass with his kernelhis partnerincrime Anal Cox used their stackin a multitude of unspeakable ways on and in every orifice of my defenseless tender young body Michael Sims was there in his leather Nazi uniform caning my previouslyvirginal ass with a bamboo pole and ranting about those Censorware freaks out to get himThat is so disgusting How did you finally escape After about 16 hours of countless unholy homosexual atrocities perpetrated against my restrained body they all finally went to sleep on top of me sweatsoaked and exhausted I was left there completely covered in bubbly translucent jizzsnot chained to the bed with half a dozen fat pastywhite fags lying around and on top of me Fortunately the spooge coating my flesh worked wonderfully as a lubricant I was able to squirm my way out of the handcuffs and slip out the back door of the apartment not their back doors Ijust glad I survived the awful ordeal These sexuallyrepressed hackers had a lot of builtup spunk in their wads I couldeasily been drowned Thathorrible Does have anything to do with CmdrTacotacoNo thata different disgusting perversion CmdrTaco indulges himself in Mr Malda is usually not satisfied with merely snotting your own jizz back onto your face he most often enjoys involving his own bodily fluids in his twisted games WeatherTroll has spent some time trying to educate the Slashdot readership about this vile practice emphasis added You may be wondering what CmdrTacotacois You will be wishing that you hadnbeen wondering after you finish reading this post To make his tacoCmdrTaco takes a taco shell and shits on it He then adds lettuce takes out his tiny withered dick otherwise known as his puts his taco sauceon it which means he jacks off on the taco and adds a compound to make the person who eats the taco unconscious Of course the compound does not make the person unconscious until the taco is fully eaten Thus CmdrTaco forcefeeds the taco to the unsuspecting victim After all who would knowingly eat shit and CmdrTacojizz After the victim is unconscious he is held against his will and used for CmdrTaconefarious homosexual purposes This includes shoving taco shells up the victimass Tacosnotting and getting Jon Katz involved Trust me you do not want Jon Katz anywhere near your unconscious body Also rumor has it CmdrTaco is looking for a new goatsecx guy Donlet it be youDifferent ungodly perversion yet no less revolting It should be clear to you now that Robert Malda is a very very sick individual as are most of the Slashdot editors Does Jon Katz get involved in any of this I thought he was a pnot a homosexual Actually Jon Katz is a homosexual pHealso a coprophiliac and many suspect a zoophile Mr Katz is somewhat of a loner and doesninvolve himself in the circlesnots but that doesmean heany less of a freak than the rest of the Slashdot crew Katz often engages in a game called with a harem of littleboy slaves that he has collected over the years yet another vile practice which involves administering an enema to himself of the little boyurine forced out of them with a pair of pincers spooging the vile muck from his ass back into the enema bag then dribbling and slathering the goo all over himself and the boychained naked bodies If hein the mood he will sometimes skip refilling the enema bag from his distended anus and just squirt it from his ass onto the crying terrified boys Unwilling boys are further tortured with the pincers until they comply and allow Mr Katz to juicydouche them at will A boy will usually last about two years before Mr Katz either accidentally drowns them in diarrhea or kills them once they get too old usually around 13 or 14Not content with being a pcoprophile Mr Katz is also quite the zoophile As if the sexual escapades with the helpless little boys arenenough Jon usually enjoys his juicydouches best when his penis is firmly planted in a female goatanus He is also rumoured to get off on watching his little boys eat the goatsmall beanlike turds and he often kills his older boys by letting his goats trample them you getting hard writing this Why yes Join me in a WIPOsnot No thanks Ialready CmdrTacoboi toi The URL of this document is opdisplay revisions are publicly available at oplist Id tacosnottinghtmlv 116 20011228 212003 wipo Exp Copyright 2001 J Wipo Troll Esq Verbatim crapflooding of this document is permitted in any medium provided this copyright notice is preserved and next time you take a dump you think of the WIPO Troll and all hedone to make Slashdot a better place

what about the environment?

[pcardoso]

If freon contains CFCs and eats up the ozone layer, what will MS Freon do?

Destroy all my linux distribution CDs?

Re:what about the environment?

[haeger]

If freon contains CFCs and eats up the ozone layer, what will MS Freon do?

It'll contain CRC's and eat up your freedom to choose?

.haeger

Re:what about the environment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, that is precisely what it will do.

Howcanyoulookyourselfinthemirroraftermakingsucha blatantkarmawhoringmicrosoftbashingcomment?Really, thathastobeoneofthelamestjokesinrecordedhistory.Ib etyouaresnickeringrightnowthinkingofyourownclevern ess.

Re:what about the environment?

[Joseph Lam]

MS Freon contains BUGs that suck up people's ass

Re:what about the environment?

[byran lei]

>It'll contain CRC's and eat up your freedom to choose?
>.haeger
>
>
Does this mean the that the green "X" Xbox logo will be replaced with the Biohazard symbol?

Re:what about the environment?

[ObviousGuy]

I'll bet you're snickering about your cleverness!

Re:what about the environment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your're right, I am.

Re:what about the environment?

[Easy2RememberNick]

Edsel, Pinto and The Hindenburg were alternate names not chosen.

Re:what about the environment?

[leomekenkamp]

And probably cause BSORBs (Blue Skies Of Radiation Burns).

Re:what about the environment?

[xmedar]

Well it was originally going to be called MS HotAir(tm), but the spinmeisters at M$ HQ didnt like that, to give an example from the article -

The Xbox console isn't profitable for the Redmond, Wash., company and its costs are believed to be higher than Sony's, partly because of the hard drive and a version of its powerful Windows operating system included with each machine. While the Xbox is a full-feature BMW, the PS2 is a Toyota says Bruno Bonnell, chairman and chief executive of French game maker Infogrames Entertainment SA.


Note that there is an implicit assumption that Windows is a powerful operating system andtherefore we should all be willing to pay more for it. I thought the XBox was more expensive because M$ built uneconomic hardware that doesnt sell as well as the competition and they need to heavily subsidise so that people will buy it? Plus some quote from a M$ crony doesnt mean squat. So much for that puff piece... NEXT!

Re:what about the environment?

[AlgUSF]

It will contain BSOD's and eat up your bank account of course...

Re:what about the environment?

[matrix29]

If freon contains CFCs and eats up the ozone layer, what will MS Freon do?

Destroy all my linux distribution CDs?

Contain all of the suckiness of ULTIMATE TV boxes (which will be cannibalized for this project), the "Green/Blue Screen of Death" of ALL MICROSOFT CRAPWARE, the Megalomaniacal desires of the Uber-Spoiled-Rich-Boy-Nerd, a Fast-Forward "Commercial Skip" button which will be advertised to death until it is revoked in Version 2.00001 (one day after release) so Billy Gates can suck up more advertising dollars from obnoxious marketing drones, zero of the features promised working correctly, billions of lines of mega-patched (never rewritten) buggy spaghetti code, a ticket price of $500, a monthly user fee of $19.95 so you can actually use the crapware's "Program Guide" (failure to pay will result in disabling of all features until payment is received), and an internal (overpriced) cellphone so Gates can update your guide & spy on your viewing habits & disable people smart enough to hack out the MS-Crapware(TM)+ Report them to the BSA + DMCA goonsquad.

I figure a 33% sales rate nationwide as that was the percentage last election that was moronic enough to vote for a Drug-Addict Son-Of-A-Bush who's lifetime incompetence, corruption, and treason is sadly obvious to most every thinking American (except that hardcore moron-base of 33%).

I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO YOUR FP.

[L.Torvalds]

And to the CLIT for which it stands, one Nation, Under God, without liberty or justice for the terrorist AC's.

Feature Creep

[Gopher971]

Quote "I worry about what I call feature creep -- layering too many things into a product so the original intent of the product gets lost,"

And I thought they were talking about Windows!

Re:Feature Creep

[cAPT_aARGH]

If MS does get the online gaming going, one of the new "features" of your XBox will possibly be a virus since they use a "modular" Windows and a hard drive. Won't that do wonders to their track record? Since I don't know for sure, is the xbox system operated from the hard drive or from a chip?

Re:Feature Creep

[Transient0]

I thought Bill Gates was the Feature Creep of this article...

score one for ambiguous reporting.

Re:Feature Creep

[Dirtside]

This is /., right? I thought Bill Gates was the featured creep in this story. :)

Re:Feature Creep

[MyHair]

"I worry about what I call feature creep [. . .]"

And I thought they were talking about Windows!

Or Office. I think "feature creep" just became my new favorite nickname for Clippy and friends. :-)

Re:Feature Creep

[Anonymous Coward]

Have seen it, nothing special...bleh

I have a PC with a ATI AIW Radeon that does everything that "freon" is supposed to be. And it's running 2K not XP! bleh

F R E E S T Y L E

Freon?

[PacoTaco]

This proves that Microsoft wants to take over your refrigerator as well.

Re:Freon?

[Thatmushroom]

Hey, don't knock that idea. They've been running mine for the past 3 months. Whenever it crashes, it's usually up in a few minutes, and most of the time the meat isn't spoiled.

I draw the line at having them run my liquor cabinent, though. That's one thing I never want to lock up.

Re:Freon?

[Joseph Lam]

RTFM: "click the Windows Update item under the Start Menu once a week to keep your refrigerator up and running"

Don't you hate the EULA sticker saying "By opening this refrigerator door you ......"

Re:Freon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly, i have banned M$FT products from my home, i think Bill Gates is the devil...

Re:Freon?

[Toraz Chryx]

Bill Gates isn't the devil, Al Pacino is.

Re:Freon?

[Charm]

I thought they banned Freon

Freon Banned

Microsoft not just content with control they need to destroy the whole freezin planet as well.

Re:Freon?

[Alan Partridge]

Al Pacino isn't the devil, Ned Flanders is. Al Pacino is just a terrible actor who most people apparently thinks is great, star as he is of apallingly bad films like Scarface (nothing so much as a bad episode of Miami Vice). The sooner the Pacino myth is shattered, the safer we'll all be from abominations like "Scent of a Woman" SHUDDER

Re:Freon?

[antek9]

Well, does this mean you can Snow Crash (tm) that thing? Bill Gates as Hiro Protagonist and Linus Thorvalds as Raven? Not likely, methinks...

Re:Freon?

[SEWilco]

You won't believe the EULA which the latest Auto Update put on my MS refrigerator.

I didn't know there were magnetic letters so small.

Re:Freon?

[rjamestaylor]

They're playing off the word "Free". In real-speak, not DoubleSpeak, it should be called "SlaveOn," "StuckOn," "AutomatOn."

Microsoft not only dreams but is attempting to implement its vision of complete domination of the home, internet, and enterprise. What a reach! What an arrogance!

Thankfully, it won't work. Right?

Re:Freon?

[MyHair]

"click the Windows Update item under the Start Menu once a week to keep your refrigerator up and running"

You're not taking this quite far enough:

Toaster: Please enter your Passport (TM) Login
(...)
Welcome, Jim! How do you want your toast today?

Me: (Selects light brown)

Toaster: Thank you, Jim! . . .
Jim, I'm sorry, but your XBox gaming subscription is two days late. I will be unable to prepare your toast until your account is in order. Choose an account to pay this from:
A) Checking
B) Savings
C) IRA withdrawal (early penalties apply)
D) Open a Microsoft(TM) World bank credit account! Jim, this is quick and easy, and the interest is only 42% APR. You won't pay anything for the first month, and all your home Microsoft appliances will automatically deduct their usage fees from this account!

Me: (Selecting A)

Toaster: . . .
Thank you! (. . .)
Jim! Please click here to update to Microsoft(TM) Toast 3.4c! For only a nominal increase in rental fee, this required upgrade (refer to your EULA), you get the added capability of Microsoft(TM) YummyToast, in which the EULA allows you to add cinnamon and sugar or a fruit spread instead (MS(TM) Refrigerator also requires upgrade for EULA to allow these items in Microsoft(TM) HomeNecessities); this is a vast improvement over last year's NumNumToast with butter, Microsoft(TM) "I can't believe I ever used anything else besides Microsoft VeggieTales vegetable oil spread!" or cream cheese.

Me: (Throws toaster accross room.)

Security System: Jim! I see your toaster is in need of service! I'll have your Microsoft(TM) MediaPhone dial support immediately! (Connection charges apply. Average hold time: 3 hours. Estimated time to technician visit: two weeks.)

(Feel free to continue this story. -Jim)

Re:Freon?

[cefek]

"Honey, come back to bed, darling. You was supposed to turn of the light, not play Mineswepper on our new switch"

Re:Freon?

[Jonny Ringo]

That would be nice to get the updated "Fat ass" program. where everytime your fat ass tries to get some fatening food the fridge calls you names. Like "MOO, thats it you fat ass keep eating.. huh there tubby did you hear me?"

Re:Freon?

[einhverfr]

And I thought PostgreSQL had a monopoly on TOAST support ;)

Re:Freon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Whew. I thought for a minute that they said "Kreon". That is the name I picked for a directory where I keep all my HTML files. No one but me knows or cares. (Wooops, I just let the cat out of the bag). Well, ok, if Microsoft is watching, how about me selling you the rights to use my personal directory name, instead of that silly "Freon"? lemme know...

Re:Freon?

[Bush Pig]

I think you got that the wrong way round.

Re:Freon?

[zCyl]

and most of the time the meat isn't spoiled.

But if it's closed-source meat, how do you ever really know??

A step in the right direction

[maunleon]

This would take the X-box one step closer to a place on my entertainment shelf.

What I would like to do ideally is to take my whole DVD collection and copy it to a hard drive. Then, I would like to have the X-box (Freon, whatever) come up with a menu and let me select one of the movies on its hard drive.

There are of course copyright issues with this (what keeps me from going to blockbuster, and conveniently backing up my rental to this box?).. but they can be worked around.

Anyone know if the X-box can be modified to do this yet?

p.s. Freon was not such a disaster. I'd have loved to have an exclusive patent to Freon for a few years.

Re:A step in the right direction

[Joseph Lam]

with a broadband connectivity and its (very likely) real-time mpeg encoding power, and if it does dominate the living rooms, we'll then have millions of online (pRoN) video servers...is this just what Bill Gate want to see?

Re:A step in the right direction

[Anonymous Coward]

> There are of course copyright issues with this (what keeps me from going to blockbuster, and [...]

Micro$oft & DMCA

Re:A step in the right direction

[Alan Partridge]

" This would take the X-box one step closer to a place on my entertainment shelf"

What difference does one step make when it's a million miles away?

Re:A step in the right direction

[mother pussbucket]

And here's another step:

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns9 99 92483

To dredge up an old sig-line: Where do you want to go, toady?

Re:A step in the right direction

[arivanov]

p.s. Freon was not such a disaster. I'd have loved to have an exclusive patent to Freon for a few years

It was an environmental disaster. At the same time it was a huge commercial success.

After it was banned the companies who manufactured CFCs simply switched to other stuff. They practically did not lose money on this. All was payed by the consumers. So yes, I agree with you. I 'd love to have one of those as well.

GNU games console

[Anonymous Coward]

What we need is a GPL-licenced games console hardware design, built from relatively common components, that can be assembled by the user, or bought.

It wouldn't have to be very high-powered either, I would suggest an 68030 as the main CPU, with two 68000's one each as a sound and graphics processor - that's more processing power than is in a lot of the games in your local arcade, and perfectly adequate for the sort of games that most hackers like to play, (I.E. RPGs, beat-em-ups, shoot-em-ups, etc).

Just another of my excellent ideas :-)

Re:GNU games console

[turgid]

Better idea: use 8 Z-80's in parallel to make a 64/128-bit processor and then another 8 for the graphics hardware. We'll have an AY-3-8192 for 3 channel sound + white noise. We can code the ROM in FORTH and when it boots it'll go into a BASIC interpreter (written in FORTH). It will have line numbers from 1-9999 (who could ever need more than 10000 lines in a program?) and FOR, NEXT, GOTO and GOSUB for looping and subroutines. There should also be a 1500 baud cassette tape interface. If we're cunning we could make it capable of, say, 64 colours, but only 2 per group of 8 pixels (1 byte) i.e. 0=background, 1=foreground. Then, there's all that CP/M, Spectrum, Amstrad and MSX software we could run on it!

Re:GNU games console

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh that's really witty, making fun of my idea. Actually I quite liked the AY-3-8192, anyway.

By the way, you mock CP/M, yet it was very successful in it's day, you mock the Spectrum, yet it's amasing how what Sir Clive put in to his machines, (e.g. solid state storage on the Z88), emerges 10 years later as the normal, (flash memory), you mock Amstrad, but at least they are making a profit, and you mock MSX, well, I've never used an MSX, but then again, you probably haven't either.

If my idea was so stupid, though, why are brand new games still being released for the NeoGeo(tm), and earning a lot of money in arcades?

Re:GNU games console

[turgid]

Dude, I've used CP/M, MSX, ZX81, Spectrum, BBC Micro, Acorn Archimeded, 6502 Single Board Computers, you name it. I had a ZX81 and then a Spectrum 128. My friend had a couple of MSX machines. We coded basic on the MSX. I coded BASIC, C, FORTH and assembler on the Spectrum and ZX81, then went on to a 286 running DOS 3.31. I just reckon that your idea would have been better if you'd spec'd an ARM or MIPS processor and a low-end commodity graphics board and sound board. Because of economies of scale, they'd be cheaper and more powerful, and easier to code for with many compilers and libraries already available.

Re:GNU games console

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, hang on a minute, you had all those 8-bit machines, and coded BASIC, C, FORTH... Did you program an ALTAIR BASIC by any chance!? :-) Getting a bit suspicious this is...

Anyway, you're probably right an 030 was a bit of a dumb spec. An ARM would probably be my processor of choice, for a sensible games machine, and an ATI graphics chipset. Dunno about sound.

I quite liked the Spectrum 128+ - did you have an Interface 1, and a microdrive? Personally, the Apple ][ was my coding machine of choice - I had 5 drives, which unfortunately took up loads of expansion slots, but gave me a decent amount of storage, (I couldn't afford a hard disk), and it was the same when I moved on to the Amiga - I still couldn't afford a hard disk, and had 3 floppy drives.

Actually, I've just thought - Linux on the CD-32(tm) would be an EXCELLENT games console platform :-)

Re:GNU games console

[Alan Partridge]

why not Linux on the Gamecube, then? PowerPC ISA should make it a doddle, and it's obviously possible to modify the machine somewhat a la Panasonic. I thought ARM chips were usually FPU-less?

Re:GNU games console

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux on the Gamecube(tm)... Interesting...

Not sure that the lack of an FPU is really a problem for a games machine, I guess it depends on what sort of games you want to play with it.

I don't really like 3d type stuff very much, to be honest. What I see the theoretical open source console being is something like a cross between a SNES(tm) and a Playstation(tm).

I.E.

* Simple architechture to make it cheap and easy to program
* 'Make it in to a real computer' option, so that people could use it in labs for doing scientific work as well.
* Main types of games being:
* RPGs, (I hate them, but others seem to like them)
* Shoot-em-ups
* 2D beat-em-ups
* Puzzle games

The whole thing would be in a 19" rackmount case, and use standard components.

Re:GNU games console

[Anonymous Coward]

19" case
Common Components
Easy to program
a "real computer"
Playstation - SNES quality graphics

Sounds like a low end Pentium box with a PCI vidcard t'me.

Re:GNU games console

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you're right, but the PC architechture is still too diverse - a better analogy would be a high-end Amiga(tm).

Re:GNU games console

[turgid]

No, Altair was before my time. I was born in '74. I had an interface one and microdrive for the Spectrum. I had the HiSoft integer K&R C compiler for it :-) The ZX81 had a replacement ROM in it that ran multitasking (!) FORTH - in only 8K or ROM and 16k of RAM.

Re:GNU games console

[mdw2]

so basically you want the mythical console that was missing between the genesis and the saturn eh? :)

Re:GNU games console

[badasscat]

We have this already - it's called the SNK Neo Geo AES. Or the Atari Jaguar, if you want something *specifically* open-source (as opposed to that grey area when a company goes under). Hasbro released the rights to the Jaguar back when they owned Atari - it's now in the public domain. In other words, given the runaway success the Jaguar *hasn't* been, I'm not sure this is a really workable idea.

Re:GNU games console

[Anonymous Coward]

The SNK(tm) NeoGeo(tm) AES(tm) is an excellect system. Imagine how good a system with similar capabilities would be if it was a completely open design.

If the mythical GNU games console had a JAMMA connector on it as well, then so much the better - arcade operators could legally run loads of good games in their arcade without making a big investment. If they could just download new games free of charge, burn them on to a CD-R, and load them up, think how popular their arcades would be. They could sell copies of the games at the arcades too - for the cost of, say, two blank CD-Rs, to save people having to download them. Then, the people could play the games at home, and at the arcade.

Infact, I guess what I really imagined, is the open source equivilent of the NeoGeo(tm).

What's the boot message for the NeoGeo(tm) port of Linux, by the way? The NeoGeo games have an excellent intro, (for anybody who hasn't seen it, it's really cool, and has a catchy little jingle as well).

Re:GNU games console

[Anonymous Coward]

I never had an Altair(tm) either :-(, but I did have a Phillips G7000(tm), (called an Oddysey^2(tm) in the U.S.A.).

What used to amase me, was the way that people at the time used to say, "NEVER use a tape longer than a C-15 to record computer programs on.". Did these people EVER program anything over about 1K on a ZX81? It was so slow, and used to take about half an hour just to load a 16K program from tape, which meant that you could only get one decent program on one side of a C-60, anyway!

Re:GNU games console

[turgid]

Ah yes, the joys of the ZX81 tap interface. There was no way to verify what you'd saved, so you had to save it two or three times. It was awful. However, they improved the tape I/O significantly for the Spectrum and it was about as good as you could get on a domestic tape recorder. Do you remember those "turboload" games? How did they work? Did they use more than two tones for the data or what? I remember Tomahawk (Apache simulator by Digital Integration) used to load really fast but sounded really odd. Using an assembler on the '81 was nigh on impossible, since it would take 10 mins to load, 1 min to put your code in and *crash*. Rinse and repeat. The humble hex loader was the way to go...Then when I grew up I ended up having to regularly speak to a Honeywell 316 in a similar fashion, only it was octal, not hex :-)

Re:GNU games console

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that they just speeded up the tones, and took advantage of the fact that tapes improved a lot between 1982 and about 1987.

Also, I know that with the ROM tape routines, one bit value lasted twice as long as the other, so, say, 10K of 0s would either be double of half the load time of 10K of 1s.

More tones would have been an excellent way forward, kind of like how 9600 BPS modems work, (I.E. at 2400 BAUD, 4 bits per baud).

My favourite loaders were the block loaders, I.E. the ones that went like this:

BEEEEEEEEEE,SHHHHHH,BEE,SHHHHHH,BEE,SHHHHHH,BEE, SH HHHHH

and incremented a hex digit for each block that successfully loaded. If one didn't, then you could just re-wind the tape about 10 seconds, and load just that block again. Excellent.

The original IBM-PC(tm), had a tape interface, and I've often wondered what the recorded programs sounded like, (yeah, I know, that is *REALLY* sad, but at one point, I could identify about 30 different 8-bit machines from listening to the tapes). I liked identifying modems too :-).

The 16K RAM pack wobble problem that plagued the ZX81(tm) was a right pain as well :-)

Re:GNU games console

[KagakuNinja]

Just write an EMACS extension...

Re:GNU games console

[Anonymous Coward]

Already done!!! Just download it from /dev/null, run EMACS, and type control-meta-hyper-super-top-front-shift-bang

Re:GNU games console

[turgid]

Now that's interesting. I remember that the original IBM PC had a tape interface, but I never saw one use it either. Remember that if you didn't have DOS on disk it would boot into ROM BASIC? That was still there on the PS/2 machines back in '87 right through until some of the 486-based ones IIRC. It had the commands MOTOR ON and MOTOR OFF for controlling the tape player, but I think it gave you some sort of error saying it was no longer supported :-)

Re:GNU games console

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, most genuine IBM(tm) machines did have the ROM basic until at least the 486-based ones.

If you did boot DOS, and ran basica.com, I think it actually called the ROM basic, and that's why basica.com didn't work on non-IBM(tm) machines. I saw references to the tape interface commands in a DOS 2.X manual.

The relay in the cassette circuit would have been useful on many occasions, what a shame they dropped it! I connected a cine-camera up to an Electron once, and used the cassette-relay to control it :-).

Re:GNU games console

[Exiler]

Yea! Then we have a whole new generation of script kiddies! "up down left X, w00t! I crashed the server!!"

Re:GNU games console

[Exiler]

Heh, I didn't realize I used so many '!'s in that ^_^

Re:GNU games console

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of commands, we could have combos, with less frequently used commands being assigned a more difficult combo. Infact, that would be excellent for security, because while an ls command might be:

Hold button 1, Left, Right, Release button 1

rm -r / could be something like:

Hold down buttons 1, 3 and 5, Left, Right, Down, Up, Up and Down at the same time (!), then press buttons 2, 4 and 6, Left, release button 3, Right, then release all buttons.

Re:GNU games console

[dolmen.fr]

The problem would be the cost.

Currently, all sales of games consoles cost money to the manufacturer. There income is from software.

A hardware-equivalent "GNU games console" would require a much higher price.

Re:GNU games console

[Anonymous Coward]

I see what you mean, but using lower-powered hardware, and writing better code, (as seems to be the tendency with open source VS closed source projects), would help to lower the cost, plus making it yourself would lower costs as well.

I estimate that the cost would be about 300 UK pounds, but then all the games would be free...

Re:GNU games console

[turgid]

It's often intrigued me how you would write some code to read back the signal off of the tape. What sort of algorithn would you use? What about the maths involved? I've never really been into electronics myself, but, yes, that relay sounds cool.

Re:GNU games console

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not really sure of the details, but I would imagine that the hardware detects the transition between signals on the tape, I.E. the top and bottom of the sine wave.

So, a 1Khz tone would have 2000 transitions per second, and a 2Khz tone would have 4000 transitions per second. That might be wrong, I'm only guessing here.

Some interesting details about modems, (which must be similar in some respects), is available here:

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Modem-HOWTO-20.html

Re:GNU games console

[turgid]

Interesting. If I am not mistaken, the ZX81 and Spectrum both did it in software, simply by toggling a bit in an output port (in the way that the spectrum BEEP worked). I suppose you could sample the port, say at 10kHz and count the number of 1's and 0's to detect high and low notes, and that way there'd be a bit of a margin for error. I bet some people lost a lot of hair developing that code. :-)

Re:GNU games console

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are interested in the tape system, try to find an old copy of the relevant issue of "Your Sinclair"(tm), (I think, from memory, that it's the one with "Altered Beast"(tm) on the cover), which has the program "Vari-Turbo"(tm), in Program Pitstop(tm). It can save and load at two speeds, E.G. block 1 - 600 BPS, block 2 - 900 BPS, block 3 back to 600 BPS. I think I managed to get it to work at about 2.5x the normal speed, albeit somewhat unreliably.

What I'd have done, if I'd been designing an 8-bit machine at the time, would have been to specify a stereo tape recorder, and record different data on each channel :-)

(Actually, the Atari(tm) 8-bit machines did use one channel for data, and the other one for voice, which was played through the TV speaker, so you could have music while you waited for the programs to load - and they took about as long to load as the ZX81(tm) programs!)

huh?? m$-poison?

[Anonymous Coward]

i thought the world wanted to get rid of freon...

once again....

[smileyj68]

I like the name. It reminds me of something else all right thinking people wanted to rid the world of.

Re:once again....

[Em Emalb]

not too sure what your definition of right thinking people is, but in my world, it's this:

Box for the cable/tivo. TV. Game Console. Computer. I like that they are seperate. I think the rest of the worl likes that they are seperate. Didn't they learn from their original webtv or what ever the heck it was called abortion?

I know, there is POTENTIALLY a huge market for an all inclusive product. Problem is, we don't want it. And those of us that do, well, they are a small minority I believe. Maybe in another generation or two, this would be feasible.

I can see it now, 50 years from now:

"Dude, what's that?"
"It's a Tivo. It only records and stores "live" *snicker* tv."
"Man, those poor bastards...good thing I have my Linux 5750 Access port."
"Yeah. Let's just hope the MAN doesn't get the free software Anti-DRM repealed."
"Word*."

*I am sure "word" will be replaced with something much cooler. Us old farts (well, by then anyway, won't know cool if it smackes us and takes our money.

Re:once again....

[ObviousGuy]

I'm convinced that "word" will be replaced with "sham zammy" as the coolness factor of today's infomercials catches up with popular culture 50 years from now.

Re:once again....

[Anonymous Coward]

yes and we all know that people who want quality sound buy seperates for there hi-fi systems.

The sales of hi-fi sepreates are shadowed by the huge sales in all-in-one hi-fi's

QED

seperates allow you to buy the best of each type

Re:once again....

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not a troll, my dear moronic moderators.

This guy is referring to CFC-caused ozone-layer depletion environmental damage.

Easy on that trigger...

It's like Microsoft's Java Strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

They called it Freon because the goal is to "stop Open Source Linux appliances, by growing the polluted Windows appliance market."

Re:It's like Microsoft's Java Strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

-1, Troll?

Ha, I see some Microsoft people have moderating privileges. Either that, or somebody has forgotten his Microsoft history.

It wasn't a troll. It was an honest comment based on the evidence that came out during the Java trial, in which a Microsoft marketing presentation said:

> the "strategic objective" was to "kill cross-platform Java by grow[ing] the polluted Java market."

http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-06-1998/jw -0 6-iw-doj.html

just add a TV tuner card

[Joseph Lam]

is it just an XBox with an additional bt878 + Philips Tuner? if so then it'd be cool to have xawtv and ffmpeg running on the forthcoming "XBox Linux"

Re:just add a TV tuner card

[Anonymous Coward]

is it just an XBox with an additional bt878 + Philips Tuner?

That's the idea.. tack on features cheaply, and raise the price substantially.

They can't dominate me

[joshsnow]

Microsoft can only dominate your living room if you own a television.

Re:They can't dominate me

[krmt]

Are you kidding? Have you seen an X-Box? If put one in your living room, the room will be dominated by the unholy size of the thing.

Then you can use it as a combination coffee table and space heater. Now that's utility!

Re:They can't dominate me

[tshak]

Even though my PS2 is practically the same size (The XBox is a lot deeper, but it's not even as deep as my DVD player so they both take the same practically useable space).

Re:They can't dominate me

[jasonbw]

My drinks keep slipping off the damn thing!

Re:They can't dominate me

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, your living room sucks! To compare it's size to an XBox is hilarious!

Re:They can't dominate me

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why I got the whole &@% G4 Cube package with 3 screens and everything I ever need! I laugh at you microsoft simpletons!!!MUHUHUHHAAA

*please excuse the swearing*

Re:They can't dominate me

[a1z26b2y25]

The only XBox's I have seen are never working at Wal-Mart or Meijers. And yet this may be any parents dream, to have a blank screen and the kids enjoying stimulating activities elsewhere. Maybe M$ is a family friendly organization after all.

Backwards compatability?

[3.5 stripes]

What happens to all those people who shelled out almost $400 at the begining of the xboxes life?

Do they now have to cough up another $500 for a X-Tivo just so they can play any new games?

Releasing new box after new box, and cutting off your established user base isn't going to win this system any fans...

At least an old pc can still play new games, albeit at lower resolutions, will the old x-box play new games, or will they handicap the new games so they aren't as impressive on the new box?

Re:Backwards compatability?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can hear Bill Gates agonizing over it now:

"Let's see . . . money grab . . . do right by the customer . . . money grab . . . do right by the customer . . . gee, that's a tough one. Hey Steve, come and help me make a decision here."

Re:Backwards compatability?

[zwoelfk]

"At least an old pc can still play new games..."

1. what you describe would be forward compatibility not backward (XBox playing XBox2 games which isn't going to happen)

2. one of my biggest peeves with windows is lack of compatibility for games across versions. my daughter has something like a hundred PC games (bought!) that were written for various versions of DX and windows and all of which show an amazing lack of compatibility with the newer versions of windows. Win2K,WinME don't work -most- of the time. WinXP is a bit better (in compatibility mode). so I have to basically maintain an extra machine to play (Win98) to play these games. let's not even go on to my pile of DOS games. the PC is no better.

3. sony has set a nice example with PS2 compatibility with PSX games. I would be surprised if the next version of XBox didn't do the same thing.

"Releasing new box after new box, and cutting off your established user base isn't going to win this system any fans..."

uhh.. hello? this is the way the console market has -always- worked. and it -has- won them new fans, year after year. I don't hear much complaining that the gamecube doesn't play NES games.

Re:Backwards compatability?

[HFXPro]

I believe Atari tried doing just that a couple of years before. We see where that got them at.

Re:Backwards compatability?

[3.5 stripes]

Yeah but NES games are not 3 years old...

You're right, backwards compatability isn't the word I'm looking for, I'm just trying to say that if they create a new platform before this one matures, they'll be locking out a lot of gamers, who are either not happy to have to spend so much cash to play the latest xbox games, or don't want all the extra features. If they create the games to take advantage of the new (I'm assuming the system will have updated components) hardware, they're going to exclude a large portion of their installed user base, it's a really risky push in my opinion. Plus they're going to put the developers in a bind.
The situation they're going to try and create is have someone develop enough mindblowing games to justify an extremely large purchase(for a gaming console) which will hopefully bring in enough users to get the rest of the developers to move from the established base to the "to be created" user base. Sega screwed themselves in this way.

Re:Backwards compatability?

[kpetruse]

What?

Hasn't every tech company ever done this? It's called progress. Sure, the PS2 can play most PSOne games, but why play Gran Turismo when GT3 is out? Why play Grand Theft Auto when there's GTA3?

Or are you hoping that you can play Doom3 on your 486?

Re:Backwards compatability?

[3.5 stripes]

In the case of the PSX the developers had reached (and had time to reach) the very limits of what the psx could do, and the PS2 was the next logical step... right now the xbox hasn't been around enough time, or even been tested to it's limits. I say it's too early.

No a 486 won't play Doom3, but I'm not going to buy a new computer just to play that game, as pretty as it looks. I will, however, shell out 150 bucks for the gamecube because it has some cool new games. $500 is a lot of money, they're going to need a real "killer app" type of game.

Re:Backwards compatability?

[kpetruse]

Well, this is planned for 2004-5, so by that time the X-Box will probably have been pushed fairly far. Console lifecycles are something like 3 years so this makes perfect business sense. There's nothing particularily revolutionary in the Freon's vapourware specs.

Not so keen on the Gamecube myself, it's a bit too kiddy for my tastes, but hey, each to their own. Gonna stick with my PS2 until the next gen comes along.

If Doom3 can capture the creeping skin horrorflick feel of Dooms 1 and 2 (btw, Doom still scares me playing it on the Gameboy Advance), then I'll be more than happy to shell out on a PC upgrade.

Re:Backwards compatability?

[3.5 stripes]

I thought they were trying to supercede(spelling) the release of the PS3 which is due out in FEB 2004, which means they're going to have to release it in late 2003, which is just over a year from now.

Anyhow, I think 4 years is a better hardware cycle, for most platforms nowadays, the first good games (in any decent quantity) really don't come out for about a year. There are always some standouts, but it's usually the second generation games which make the biggest impression.

Re:Backwards compatability?

[Arsewiper]

Of course it's backwards compatible. The more backwards you are - the more likely you'll fall for the latest desperate attempt to squeeze more money out of people.

Re:Backwards compatability?

[techstar25]

What happened to those people who shelled out $100 at the beginning of WIndows 95s life.

They had to cough up another $100 for Win98, and then another for WinMe and then another for XP, so they can use new software.

They released OS after OS cutting off their user base for years, and now they're the biggest company in the world. We've heard this all before. And it worked beautifully the first time. But this time there is an alternative.

Re:Backwards compatability?

[Alan Partridge]

Steve would be far too busy snorting coke off a hookers' tits while eating a cheeseburger to come and help Bill with his moral dilemma. I think Bill normally consults the magic 8 ball in situations like this. Does anyone else iagine Redmond to resemble nothing so mjuch as OCP's headquarters?

Re:Backwards compatability?

[rseuhs]

It's OK if you release a new box every 5-6 years, but releasing a new one every 2 years will not work.

Re:Backwards compatability?

[Cpt_Kirks]

I think Bill normally consults the magic 8 ball in situations like this.

I would love to see the choices on Bill's magic 8 ball:

- Yes
- No
- Unclear
- Do whichever is more EVIL
- Giggle and snort manically
- Buy Seattle

Re:Backwards compatability?

[Anonymous Coward]

Atari did do this, the 5200 could run 2600 games with an adapter, and the 7800 could run 2600 games right out of the box. The 7800 was released, what, 8 or 9 years after the 2600? If I remember, bungled business and design decisions dictated the newer machines relative commercial failure more than the presence or lack of backward compatibility in the newer machines.

Re:Backwards compatability?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Not so keen on the Gamecube myself, it's a bit too kiddy for my tastes

Let me guess, late teens, early twenties, still not quite gotten the hang of puberty yet, am I close?

Re:Backwards compatability?

[kpetruse]

Not at all, old chap. Been playing games for >20 years. Left puberty behind many years ago.

And now hangovers last two days.

I'm just not so keen on the Mario style games. Anything wrong with that, AC?

Re:Backwards compatability?

[Exiler]

I'm with him, I may only be 14 but I don't like seeing Zelda look like a Disney movie. But what do I know about new gen consoles, I sold my PSX and N64 and now all I have left is my NES, numerous Atari's, Master System and 3DOs ( ;

Re:Backwards compatability?

[Exiler]

Whoops, double post. I blame Coca-Cola and caffine *twitch*

Batman

[asciimonster]

It seems like Microsoft was held hostage by Mr Freeze. (Batman rulez!)

The name says it all: All those fancy Microsoft stuff will eventually Freeze up! (BSOD)

I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[BlackGriffen]

The entire point of the console market is as follows:

one: cheap
two: uniform hardware (or as close to it as possible)
three: a long upgrade cycle (about 5 years)
four: sell hardware at a loss or paper thin margins to make money back on software

My guess is that this will turn out to be the jack of all trades, but master of none. If they sell this thing cheap enough to be a successful console, then they'll lose money for every set top boxer. If they sell it at a respectable profit, it won't be a successful console. Granted, they could simply make it X-Box compatible, but then anyone willing to spring for a set top will probably buy them separately to get better features, or taylor their setup to their own needs. Not to mention the households like mine that have a dedicated gaming TV (nothing spectacular, really) so that other people can watch movies et al whilst the gamers game.

BlackGriffen

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[Rayder]

Worse than this, If MS thinks it can make a Video set top box better than SONY can, they are plain wrong. SONY is now a major manufacturer of professional video devices, and a major maker of game consoles, they have the know-how to tie all this together with their own chips and manufacturing plants.
Nice try microsoft, but this is not going to work... :-)

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[tomstdenis]

Correction, SONY is now a major label on somewhat decently made products.

You think that brandnames are the manufacturers? Next you're going to tell me that an IBM Aptiva is made 100% in an IBM factory and not some slave labour camp in taiwan......

I wish the best of luck for MSFT because quite frankly nobody else is.

Tom

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[sql*kitten]

Worse than this, If MS thinks it can make a Video set top box better than SONY can, they are plain wrong. SONY is now a major manufacturer of professional video devices, and a major maker of game consoles, they have the know-how to tie all this together with their own chips and manufacturing plants.
Nice try microsoft, but this is not going to work... :-)

Business 101: Corporations have two basic resources: capital, and management attention. Corporate strategy is the decision making process that allocates these in ways that fulfill the company's objectives (which may be as nebulously defined as "enhance shareholder value"). Anything a company wants or wants to do can usually be acquired or fulfilled using these two resources. It's wrong to assume that Microsoft not owning a fab right now will make much difference in the long term.

Also, there's something that savvy players in professional services (law, consulting, investment banking, etc) have known for a long time: unless you really want the brand, it's often not worth buying another company, since all the assets are intellectual. It's much cheaper to simply poach the key players and selectively encourage defections from their staff to yours. The same is true in high tech, witness Microsoft's strategy aagainst Borland. If Microsoft want to get people (all business is people, really) they can look to Sony or to Sony's rivals.

The future is still very much in play.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[markmoss]

some slave labour camp in taiwan......

Taiwan doesn't have slave labor camps. Taiwan is (compared to most Asian countries) free and democratic. If they want slave labor, they've got to get an agent in Hong Kong to contract to get the work done on the mainland.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[rnd()]

You sound like a luddite. Look at it this way: let them surprise you with a new definition of the console.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[Anonymous Coward]

And you sound like an illiterate jackass. Why don't you go look up the meaning of the word "luddite", fignuts.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[rnd()]

From Dictionary.com: A Luddite is one who opposes technical or technological change.

I stand by what I wrote.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[blaine]

It's been pointed out before, but I'd just like to make the point that selling consoles at below cost is not a time-honored tradition of the console industry, nor does the most successful console maker (Sony) do any such thing. In fact, at this point in time, Sony makes a tidy profit of the sales of Playstation 2 consoles. Given the advances in manufacturing since it's release, it is estimated that they make in the range of $100 profit per console sold, even with the recent price drop.

I'll give you that Microsoft is selling the XBox below cost (estimated at around a $150 loss per console, although I'm not sure how that has changed since the price drop and since their manufacturing improvements). But seriously, what do you expect? This is the Microsoft way: if you want to get into a market, do whatever it takes, even if it means dumping billions down the drain. All that matters to MS is taking control of the console market, and they'll work on making a profit later (they've got plenty of profit from their other endeavours to keep the XBox afloat).

Anyways, my point is this: don't assume that just because Microsoft (and now, Nintendo as well, to a smaller degree) are stupid enough to fall into the same trap that Sega did with the Dreamcast, that this is how the console industry has always worked, or how the console industry will work in the future. Even now, Sony is still dominating the market, and they make a profit per console on top of that. Somehow, I think that MS is going to have trouble topping that, given that they have to sell around 15 games to a customer to make a profit (console = -$150, each game = roughly +$10 in licensing). Seriously, nobody wants 15 copies of Halo, and that's about the only worthwhile game the XBox has.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[ivan256]

Let me surprise them when I don't buy it.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[flatrock]

This isn't the entire point of the console market? It's the way the market currently works. The point of the market is to make money selling video games to consumers.

one:cheap - This definately helps sell games. Microsoft is selling their consoles and games pretty cheap, but they aren't amking money while doing it. In order to make money, they need to increase volumes on the games.

two: uniform hardware - this is what gives consoles a uniforme experience. It makes games easier to develop and more stable. Bringing out a new console every year makes creating games harder, but not nearly as bad as developing for PCs. A three year product cycle might be more reasonable.

three: a long upgrade cycle - The only reason Microsoft wants a long upgrade cycle is to avoid pissing off customers who don't want to upgrade often, and developers that don't want to have to develop for multiple XBox platforms. Microsoft DOES want to have a shorter product cycle than Sony. Sony develops their own processors at a huge expense. SOny only starts making money off of selling consoles after several years of selling the same console to make back those development costs. Microsoft uses off the shelf processors. Their consoles cost much less to develop. Therefore shorter product cycles effect them much less than Sony. Sony also has a harder time maintaining compatibility between platforms because of their custom development. These things all give Microsoft and advantage if they have a shorter cycle than Sony. Annual upgrades still don't make sense, but 3 year cycles sure do.

four: sell hardware at a loss or paper thin margins to make money back on software -
Freon is more than a console, and therefore can be expected to cost more. Because it can perform those multiple features with pretty much the same hardware, they can make it cost considerably less than the price of two seperate boxes. Freon won't likely replace the next generation of the XBox. Freon will likely be a seperate, more expensive product that is compatible with the next XBox. They can use the same hardware to provide gaming features, and have additional hardware and software to support video on Freon. Of maybe Feaon might just be a $200 price tag for a cool remote and video software, and a bigger hard drive.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[Fjord]

I'm sorry, but aquisition isn't as good as having an already established brand and manufacturing site(s). There are many things that go with aquisition that can impact how you enter into a market. You had better pad the timeline a lot or you will ship late. Egos in the aquired company have to be stroked just right, or you'll have a talent exodus and you'll have just bought a bunch of equipment.

I realize that Microsoft is no stranger to aquiring, but it still even with their experience, it isn't as good as owning th eplants already.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[rnd()]

That is your choice! It's nice to see someone thinking like a capitalist here... :)

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[tshak]

Less we forget that the entire reason that Sony came into the market is for the same thing that MS is doing now. Sony has a HD upgrade for a reason, and it's not just for multiplayer gaming.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[Anonymous Coward]

That is your choice! It's nice to see someone thinking like a capitalist here... :)

No, he's thinking like a consumer. A capitalist would say something more like "Let me surprise them when I don't invest in their scheme." or more likely "to hell with what I think of them, it looks like a good investment to me."

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[rnd()]

a consumer-oriented society is a capitalist society, and vice-versa. Anything else is inefficient.

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft sold Xboxs from the start at a loss... now they lowered the price so their really taking a hit, it's just that it's a better console.

Personally I think people should just get TV tuners in their computers, get a good graphics card, and you can do all of it!!! Either way Microsoft gains money so why do they care!

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[BlackGriffen]

Luddite, huh? You, sir, are a troll. I never said that I was opposed to the idea, I said it wouldn't succeed. That would make me a nay-sayer, and a skeptic.

Let met put it to you this way, where has the combination TV VCR gone? Unless there is some financial or technological advantage of integrating two things with separate functions, attempting to strap a vacuum cleaner to the refrigerator does not make for a successful product just because you have integrated the functions of two devices.

Now go back to your cave, and try to come up with a better insult next time, troll.

BlackGriffen

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[BlackGriffen]

All very good points, but will the average consumer go for a 3 year cycle? It may please hard core gamers who like to stay on the bleeding edge, but the console market's bread and butter isn't the hardcore gamer, who probably stays on the bleeding edge with their PC on a 2 or 3 year product cycle that costs more, but the money conscious persons who want to play games, but can't afford to keep up with a PC. Ideally for the consumers, there wouldn't be any noticeable upgrade cycle, like with TV's and VCR's. I suspect that if M$ tries a three year strategy, what they'll do is alienate the mainstream consumers. One possible solution would be legacy compatibility, but that raises problems if they try to maintain it for more than one generation back. A three year with legacy might actually be feasible, but I have my reservations. For instance, a lot of the success of a console relies on the fact that each generation the graphics jump jump in quality, driving sales and user base; necessary ingredients in convincing developers to make games for you. I don't see M$ being able to make drastic enough leaps in graphics quality every 3 years to overcome their own inertia. Remember, the entire business strategy is to overcome the chicken and the egg problem: how do you get market share without games, and how do you convince developers to make games without market share? So far, M$ has done this with a pile of money. This strategy isn't really sustainable, though, and the console market traditionally relies on cheap hardware and graphical leaps (giving users a good reason to upgrade, if only for the wow factor).

I suppose it could succeed, but I'm still willing to bet that a serious user could get a better value and/or more performance from separate console and set top box. Just like the current consoles and DVD players. The PS2 DVD player is crap. The Panasonic Q (gamecube compat, Japan only), is just decent. The XBox DVD player, besides costing extra, is also definitely not top of the line.

BlackGriffen

Re:I think that M$ has Missed the Point

[rnd()]

I interpreted your comment as though you were saying "I like my consoles just the way they are, damn it. In my day we had a separate console, a separate PVR, and we liked it.". I would have expected you to use the word "newfangled" as part of your expression of dismay about the state of the world. What has the world come to, anyway.

They're trying to combine a TiVO (an extremely popular device) with a game console (another extremely popular device). This isn't the Jetsons, this is common sense made possible by the commodity hardware used in the X-Box.

I don't mean to troll, there's nothing wrong with being a luddite. I think there are even Luddites-anonymous support groups out there.

By the way, no offense intended.

hey Bill, fuck off

[DrSkwid]

think that just about says it all tbh

X-Box more costly cuz of Windows (RETCH)

[Wraithlyn]

"The Xbox console isn't profitable for the Redmond, Wash., company and its costs are believed to be higher than Sony's, partly because of the hard drive and a version of its powerful Windows operating system included with each machine."

Oh cry me a river. Like Microsoft is losing money because of all the billions they're pouring into the miraculous X-Box Bastardized Windows Operating System. Sure, maybe the hard disk is a lotta coin, but the cost of putting Windows on a console? Catastrophic.

Re:X-Box more costly cuz of Windows (RETCH)

[Juju]

Whoever modded this one as Troll is one stupid reader.
I find your remark very much to the point. I can't understand how Microsoft is loosing money on each console because of Windows... Surely this is a one off R&D cost. Unless Microsoft (the OS division) is charging the M$ fee for each console sold. That would really be a funny one, but I doubt it works like that...

Re:X-Box more costly cuz of Windows (RETCH)

[dsb3]

> Unless Microsoft (the OS division) is charging the M$ fee for each console sold. That would really be a funny one, but I doubt it works like that...

Microsoft may not be actually writing itself a cheque, but this could be the start of some great 'creative' accounting, if put in the right (wrong) hands.

"But Judge, we're LOSING money. Protect us from those nasty competitors!!"

Re:X-Box more costly cuz of Windows (RETCH)

[Technician]

That would really be a funny one, but I doubt it works like that...

Ummm Maybe the cost is related to the fact that running Windows requires more memory and a hard drive which runs the costs up more than the competition.

Re:X-Box more costly cuz of Windows (RETCH)

[sql*kitten]

Ummm Maybe the cost is related to the fact that running Windows requires more memory and a hard drive which runs the costs up more than the competition

I don't think the special version of Windows that comes with the XBox does necessarily, for example it doesn't have virtual memory support. It could probably be run from firmware like CE does. As far as I know, the OS actually comes on the game disk.

Re:X-Box more costly cuz of Windows (RETCH)

[Anonymous Coward]

unlike Tivo which doesn't have a hard drive and uses no memory right?

think before you troll man, that's all i'm asking...

Re:X-Box more costly cuz of Windows (RETCH)

[Rogerborg]

Given the way that large corporations work, it wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft were billing themselves for use of the cut down 2K OS. At a massive discount, with... interesting... tax implications, I'd further speculate.

Re:X-Box more costly cuz of Windows (RETCH)

[cefek]

And it would also be great, if you put the source for this quotation. Really.

Ahhh! I got it.

[af_robot]

It just due their plans to use Duron instead of Intel chips...

Patents

[kwishot]

You'd think that TiVo has some sort of patent on this kind of thing....
Oh wait....thats right....
OurCourtSystem: Money=Influence Microsoft=Money, therefore Microsoft=Influence. Patents and other such laws no longer apply!
Anyways...seriously...does TiVo (or someone) have this patented?

Re:Patents

[kawaichan]

Um... Why are you being such a troll

Microsoft has already have a TiVo like system, it's called the Ultimate TV.

So until next time, please don't start the trolling and stupid MS bashing until you get all the facts straight

Re:Patents

[gcshaw2nd]

It appears that this effort on Microsoft's part is also an attempt ot recoup the losses of UltimateTV. MS blames the cable companies and vice versa for the failure, but either way billions of dollars went down the drain. Now they're going to try to make the XBox into the box they always wanted. The problem is that they still don't have the support of the cablie companies. The solution to this appears to be mimic Tivo, and expand on the idea. So MS is spending a few billion more to build several "data centers" around the world that will be used for gaming as well Tivo like features.

I peg their changes of success to the inverse of their greediness. Unfortunately thse past few years have revealed a trend toward greater greediness, locking out competitors, etc, and locking consumers into a closed system.

I'm just glad that the European Union is much more an advocate of privacy and open standards than the US government has proven to be. The EU is much stricter about these kinds of practices, and their actions will effect us Americans in a good way. Case in point: the EU is investigating Creative for the spyware their PlayCenter software installs. I can't tell you how pissed off I was to discover those programs tracking my browsing habits, and they were tacked on to a buggy program that hardly works but to which I have no alternatives, just to use my Nomad Jukebox.

That's probably enough ranting for now.

Re:Patents

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, do you realize that UltimateTV was a DirecTV-only box, that is to say, it only worked with people who had a DirecTV satellite dish and who subscribed to the DirecTV satellite TV service? UltimateTV had absolutely nothing to do with the cable TV companies. You are probably thinking of MicrosoftTV, an attempt to sell a WebTV-like box to the cable companies, which never caught on.

Re:Patents

[Phil Wilkins]

> Microsoft has already have a TiVo like system, it's called the Ultimate TV.

No, it's called, third place in a one horse race.

Although that's what RenderMorphics was before they bought it renamed it Direct3D, and started giving it away for nothing. here

[I worked at Argonaut during all this, although I never met Rich, IIRC his office was stateside]

Re:Patents

[gcshaw2nd]

Yeah, I guess you're right. I was thinking of the MicrosoftTV initiative.

Possible MS Project Names

[Popocatepetl]

Microsoft is running out of destructive chemicals/materials to use as product codenames.

Here are some suggestions so they can continue to innovate:

Plutonium - the "most powerful" platform
Asbestos - Microsoft's new embedded platform
Acrylamide - for next generation restaurant machinery
Lead Paint Chips - top-secret, pervasive computing initiative

Re:Possible MS Project Names

[haunebu]

What about "Palladium"? Oh, wait...

Re:Possible MS Project Names

[mpe]

Plutonium - the "most powerful" platform

How about Ununoctium? Which probably is chemically inert.

Re:Possible MS Project Names

[damien_kane]

How about Ununoctium?

Man-made and having a half-life of virtually milliseconds? It would also fit with their standard usefullness/upgrade curve.

Re:Possible MS Project Names

[dattaway]

It gets better with Freon(tm). To most people, this is a cool gas, pretty much inert, and has good heat conductivity.

Everyone knows about the potential to destroy the atmosphere by letting in the cancerous spectrum of UV, but there is a very deadly form of Freon. If Freon happens to be burned, it forms a mortally toxic acid and phosgene gas. If freon in your car were released and entered the engine's intake, the resulting exaust can wipe out bystanders.

Its interesting Microsoft used Du Pont's Freon tradmark. Why? If you try to burn Freon on your computer, would there be certain death?

Re:Possible MS Project Names

[sharkey]

MS Thalidomide - all-in-one fulfillment for your maternity needs.
MS DDT - Official refills for the...
MS XtREME Lawncare game, with respiratory-feedback controller.

Re:Possible MS Project Names

[bryan1945]

Unobtanium- Totally secure MS OS
Sealed Bank Vault- New firewall system

Has it occured to anyone....

[mirnav]

... that they probably named this product "freon" in a feeble attempt at establishing a connection between use of the product and being "free".... or something equally market-savvy and brain-dead.

Re:Has it occured to anyone....

[mccalli]

... that they probably named this product "freon" in a feeble attempt at establishing a connection between use of the product and being "free".... or something equally market-savvy and brain-dead.

I read it as them implying that the product is cool.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:Has it occured to anyone....

[carlos_benj]

I read it as them implying that the product is cool.

While on the inside they're hoping it has a chilling effect on the competition.

Re:Has it occured to anyone....

[stalbott972]

another gentleman here in my office made the comment that since freon is a gaseous substance does that mean that Microsoft's new product is vaporware? Sorry had to be said!

Re:Has it occured to anyone....

[Nick Driver]

No, I think they've named it "freon" probably because they've been huffing too much freon (inhalant abuse) and now have dain bramage from it.

Lies, all lies

[dimator]

Interesting. According to this (note the URL, someone has a sense of humor) MS would turn down feature requests that didn't improve the Xbox's "gaming" performance/ability. I'm glad to see that that was all a lot of bull shit.

Every single Microsoft product...Editors comment.

[AnonymousCowheard]

Every time a Microsoft product is released, the slashdot editors feel the need to analyze and comment. Every single Microsoft hardware product that arises, they like it. Every single Microsoft software product that arises, they despise it.

What's it going to be, guys? You reviewed the Pro800 Turbo, and you always appear to be more speculative and critical of non-Microsoft products.

I don't like it a bit. For your information, Microsoft is releasing the Palladium soon and like their hardware or not, just redeeming Microsoft for good hardware will only make them more successful.

There is some discussion on a Linux port of World of Warcraft in Blizzard's WoW Forum. Maybe for once you all can support a non-Microsoft product even if they legally shut down a project that cannot be shutdown due to its opensource nature.

Nah

[af_robot]

It will destroy any other equipment which may circumvent DRM in your living room.
like VCR

funny names

[dago]

I think that some of the marketing/PR people of MS have been sick / on holidays / away these times.

Palladium : was originally the name of the statue of Pallas-Athenas, which was supposed to protect the city of Troie. Which was later invaded by greeks which used a subterfuge which will be known for centuries as trojan horses.

Freon : according to this web page, apart from evident utility in refigerators, "Only decades later did people realize that such chlorofluorocarbons endangered the ozone layer of the entire planet." and, even worse for MS : "The trade name Freon® is a registered trademark belonging to E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Company (DuPont)."

Re:funny names

[Saint Fnordius]

Actually, a lot of Microsoft's advertising belies a subtle sabotage by their PR types. Remember the Stones song whose refrain was "You make a grown man cry"? How about the Office ads with a requiem for a soundtrack? Or the way the Windows logo looks like it's going down/to crash?

I definitely think that it's a subtle jab at clueless leaders, that the marketing types are playing jokes on the computer geeks that supposedly run the place.

They were probably having trouble keeping a straight face as they suggested Freon. "Oh yeah, it'll connotate 'Free' and 'on'! (snicker) Um, I gotta go to another meeting! (burst of laughter as the door closes)"

Re:funny names

[Buck2]

Somebody mess with your anti-paranoid shot?

Re: funny names

[Black Parrot]

> Palladium : was originally the name of the statue of Pallas-Athenas, which was supposed to protect the city of Troie. Which was later invaded by greeks which used a subterfuge which will be known for centuries as trojan horses.

Funnier yet when you find out that some people think the Palladium was actually a gigantic dildo.

No, stop, don't mod this up as 'funny' - I'm serious.

Re:funny names

[Vulture_]

Perhaps Open Source is not the greatest threat to Microsoft after all. The great Roman empire was destroyed from within; the invaders from without merely finished it off. Perhaps we'll soon see a similar scenario here, where Open Source is merely a coup de grace?

Re:funny names

[iapetus]

Strange though it seems, surely this can be the only explanation for an OS called 'winCE'...

Re:funny names

[halftrack]

When I think about palladium I think of it as a component used in producing nuclear weapons and it has got a radioactive isotop: Pd-103.

Re:funny names

[SN74S181]

And I think of a precious metal that trades in ingot form for about the same prices as platinum.

Re:funny names

[Neon Spiral Injector]

I've always been puzzled how that one got out. I mean, MS has to know that everyone shortens the Windows release name to WinXX, been doing is since Win31. Heck even the Win98 CDs have a directory named that.

So how could they not see that the Compact Edition of Windows would not be called WinCE?

Re:funny names

[Lord_Slepnir]

I'm still waiting for Windows CEMENT. With the power of CE, the stablility of ME, and the user-freindlyness of NT.

Re:funny names

[zeno_2]

I found this gif that someone made, it was showing off the logo's for the following os's, Windows NT, Windows CE, and Windows ME..

Together it made Windows CE ME NT, or Windows CEMENT.

Re:funny names

[Citizen of Earth]

Remember the Stones song whose refrain was "You make a grown man cry"? How about the Office ads with a requiem for a soundtrack?

The OfficeXP commercial featured the start of the song "Lunatic Fringe" by Red Rider. I guess they were attempting to directly address their customers who are willing to buy the same product over again.

Re:funny names

[jmauro]

"Only decades later did people realize that such chlorofluorocarbons endangered the ozone layer of the entire planet."

Part of the reason that Freon was considered so dangerous, is that the patent was about to run out and instead of fighting it, DuPont lead the effort to get it banned so no one else could make money off of it. It was a very dangerous substance for the earth, but that really wasn't the reason why iy was banned. Maybe Microsoft is trying the same, coming up with a consumer product so horrible, they'll lead the effort to prevent any one else from ever copying it.

Re:funny names

[karmawarrior]

No, it's because someone (whose name I forget, I'll have to look it up when I get home, but I don't recall any connection with DuPoint, and DuPont's patents would have already have run out by that point) developed the theory in the mid-seventies that as freon breaks up under UV light, and as there's lots of UV light in the ozone layer (by definition, that's the layer that blocks it) and ozone is very reactive, especially under UV, there was quite a good probability that the chlorine in it would come apart, react with the ozone, creating something else and resulting in a depletion of ozone.

This is a very logical explanation, and meant a lot of research was done into finding out if the ozone layer really was depleting. Lo and behold, checks on the areas above the poles revealed a massive reduction in the following decade.

I have a book of essays by one Isaac Asimov dating back to 1976, The Planet That Wasn't, which includes three chapters on ozone: it's discovery, it's importance in terms of how it made life on land possible, and, finally, a whole chapter on freon, what a fantastic substance it is (and it was), and ending on an explanation of how it might have one little flaw... with a comment to the effect of "It might be wise to reduce our usage of freon now rather than face a panic stop in ten years time."

It's excellent and explains in terms even a politician could understand what the chemical processes involved are and it's head-slappingly-and-saying-of-course! convincing without being alarmist. But Asimov never was an alarmist or luddite, and his chapter on freon is positively enthusiastic about the stuff, which under normal circumstances is as toxic as nitrogen (ie not), highly compressable without high forces, and a good heat conductor, until the ending when he points out its suseptability to breakdown under UV.

The book is still available, used, from Amazon's marketplace resellers. I recommend it.

Re:funny names

[joyoflinux]

Yep, it's available here: Microsoft's New Operating System. GIMPified and all :-)

Re:funny names

[zeno_2]

Yup that was it, I had a pretty good laugh when I first saw it.. =P

Thanks for the link

Re:funny names

[macaddict]

How about the Office ads with a requiem for a soundtrack?

What's even funnier is that the translation of that bit of Mozart's Requiem is "When the accursed have been confounded and given over to the bitter flames,...", playing as the ad asks you "Where Do You Want to Go Today?"

Apparently, using Microsoft products will send you to Hell. Go fig.

Sara

Re:funny names

[Cognitive Dissident]

Look again. This is the internal code name not the product name it's going to be marketted under. If this is a leak how is MS going to be in any trouble for an informal use of a trademarked name?

Re: funny names

[esper_child]

Isn't Palladium the game company that made the Robotech and Rifts games? Does this mean that they are trying to play on other groups Trademarks now?

Re:funny names

[BryanL]

Actually Freon is a project code name. The box may never make it to market, and if it does it will have a different name.

Re:funny names

[haggar]

Yeah, and what do you think about "Hailsrorm"? Maybe nobody noticed, but what is a hailstorm most likely to do? Shatter Windows! This seems to be one of their PR sabotages, too.

BTW. Hailstorm, it so seems, has died.

Re:funny names

[Anonymous Coward]

I thoght they were going to combine WinCE, WinME, and WinNT into a single OS, named, of course "CEMENT".

This just in...

[ferrocene]

Company makes product which is thought to increase revenue! Seriously, what's the point of this "news". Companys make products all the time, it doesn't mean you have to buy them or it will increase world domination. This is now law, it's consumer choice (ok, ok, there's that little "monopoly" thing"). But that's mostly MS-centric thinking.

Word on the street - Nike to make new shoe; increases running speed!

Kodak to make picutes more sentimental! Kodak moments to increase!

Lexus is rumored to make an expensive-looking car, and charge a lot of money for it!

What Linux (as a community) REALLY needs to do is create a sexy commercial featuring a scantily-clad Britney Spears doing an 'apt-get install' with wild camera angles and dance music. I'm thinking directed by Hype Williams, fish-eyed lens and all. Because we all know that advertising is the only REAL way to increase market share...or something. ;)
Oh shit! The commercial will also have to feature this guy:
http://www.thelinuxpimp.com/

Trust me, no matter how monopolistic M$ will try to be (or is), teenagers will flock to a sexy OS.

Hmmm...so this is a bit off-topic. The point is, new M$ products don't excite me or qualify as news. Unlike a sexy linux/tux commercial. Did I say sexy? 'Cause I meant sexy. As in sex. Sexy.

"Uh, how about no, ok Scott?" -Dr. Evil

Re:This just in...

[krmt]

Unlike a sexy linux/tux commercial. Did I say sexy? 'Cause I meant sexy. As in sex. Sexy.

Don't they show penguins having sex on the Discovery Channel or something? It's either that or Linus doing a hot little number, take your pick.

Re:This just in...

[BitwizeGHC]

What Linux (as a community) REALLY needs to do is create a sexy commercial featuring a scantily-clad Britney Spears doing an 'apt-get install' with wild camera angles and dance music. I'm thinking directed by Hype Williams, fish-eyed lens and all. Because we all know that advertising is the only REAL way to increase market share...or something. ;)


Guy: "Well, the computers look good."
Cow: "What computers?"

it not free-on at all

[falsemover]

Microsoft expect to lose money on the box and make on going money when you are on the net playing games or maybe just surfing with a souped up copy of Explorer. So it's not likely to be free-on at all.

Some marketing genius says: well lets attack the negative and code name it Freon.
another marketing genius says: but isn't freon an unpopular gas?
the first marketing genius: But people will think that it is FREE ON, did you see what I did there? Did you see that?
second genius:Hey, the number one marketing word is FREE. You are a genius.
first genius (smug mode on): Hey, I'm living proof that Micro$oft recruit from the top.

Re:it not free-on at all

[Anonymous Coward]

You got this quite right - their initials are RM and NB. But a geniette, SC, put the icing on it.

anon

Stay free

[Snart Barfunz]

Read books Go see live music Write letters Stick that up your DRM, Bill!

Another idea

[af_robot]

Microsoft Mercury Proxy Server: safe and solid solution for internet security

Freon = Vapour Ware

[Anonymous Coward]

Q: What happens when freon is in normal room temperature?

A: It turns vapour

In case the Slashdot gets slashdotted

[anonymous cowfart]

The text of the article:
Veramocorwrites"MSNBC.comhasanarticlepos tedfromtheWSJaboutMS'snewplanforlivingroomdominati on,codenamedFreon.Freonwillbecapableof'playinggame sbutalsoofferingtelevisioncapabilities,suchaspausi ngliveTVandrecordingshowsontoacomputerharddrive.'T hearticlethengoesontoexplainfuturepotentialbusines splansforXBoxincarnations.Thesystemdoesseemtohaves omegreatadvantages.Imustquestiontheirnamingquestio nhowever,weallknowwhatadisastertheactualchemicalFr eonwas.Here'stohoping,Cheers!"WementionedtheXbox's plannedevolutiontheotherday,too,butwithoutthefancy codename.

toxicology

[Cally]

Freon isn't very good for you...

Hello

[Anonymous Coward]

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B21 B22 B23 B24 B25 B26 B27 B28 B29 B30 B30A B30N B30S B31 B32 B33 B34 B35 B37 B38 B39 B40 B41 B42 B45 B46 B47 B48 B49 B51 B53 B54 B55 B56 B57 B58 B60 B61 B63 B64 B65 B67 B71 B77 B79 B84 B92 B95 B96 B98 B100 B102 B103 B104 B111 B112 B114 B120 B121 B124 B140 B140B B140G B141 B142 B142E B142S B143 B143A B143B B143D B143E B143F B143G B143H B143K B143L B143M B143N B143P B143R B143T B143W B143Z B144 B145 B145A B145B B145E B145G B145L B145M B145N B145V B145W B146 B146A B146B B146E B146G B147 B149 B150 B151 B151A B151B B151W B152 B152A B153 B153A B153B B154 B154A B154B B154D B154G B155A B156 B156A B156B B157 B157A B157B B158 B158A B159 B160 B160A B160B B171 B171A B190 B200 B201 B202 B206 B209 B210 B211 B212 B213 B215 B216 B218 B219 B220 B221 B223 B226 B233 B243 B244 B248 B281 B293 B315 B317 B321 B325 B326 B327 B328 B329 B330 B331 B332 B332A B332B B333 B334 B335 B337 B338 B340 B344 B345 B349 B355 B356 B358 B363 B364 B365 B365A B365B B366 B368 B369 B372 B373 B374 B384 B400 B400F B407 B411 B412 B413 B415 B416 B417 B418 B419 B437 B442 B450 B451 B452 B453 B454 B455 B456 B457 B458 B459 B462 B463 B465 B466 B466E B466W B467 B469 B470 B472 B473 B474 B478 B479 B480 B481 B482 B483 B493 B493A B496 B500 B503 B505 B510 B518 B520 B526 B527 B529 B530 B531 B532 B534 B535 B544 B545 B549 B552 B553 B555 B556 B560 B561 B575 B576 B577 B578 B579 B580 B581 B583 B584 B585 B586 B587 B589 B589A B590 B591 B593 B594 B595 B596 B597 B598 B599 B600 B602 B614 B646 B652 B681 B682 B684 B687 B688 B689 B690 B691 B700 B726 B727 B729 B730 B732 B733 B737 B753 B764 B767 B879 B881 B891 B892 BR1 BR1L BR2 BR3 BR4 BR5 BR6 BR7 BR7L BR8 BR9 BR9L BR10 BR10L BR11 BR12 BR13 BR14 BR15 BR16 BR17 BR18 BR19 BR20 BR21 BR21V BR22 BR22V BR23 BR24 BR25 BR26 BR27 BR28 BR29 BR30 BR33 BR36 BR40 BR41 BR42 BR44 BR49V BR53V BR54V BR55V BR57V BR58V BR62V BR63V BR64V BR65V BR66V BR68V BR69V BR70V BR84 C1 C1177 C1416 C1418 C1419 CAE8 CANS1 CORRA CORRB CORRC DLH01 DLH02 DOM80 DOM81 DOM82 DOM83 DOM84 E1 E2 E3 FW21 G1 G1S G2 G3 G3A G3B G3D G3E G3G G3R G3V G4 G5 G5A G5B G6 G6A G7 G8 G9 G10 G11 G12 G13 G14 G15 G16 G17 G18 G21 G23 G25 G26 G27 G28 G30 G31 G32 G33 G34 G35 G36 G37 G38 G38E G39 G40 G41 G42 G43 G44 G45 G46 G48 G49 G51 G52 G53 G54 G55 G56 G59 G60 G63 G67 G73 G80 G82 G83 G85 G86 G87 G93 G95 G96 G98 G99 G100 G101 G102 G103 G104 G105 G107 G107A G110 G111 G114 G118 G120 G121 G124 G125 G128 G128A G155 G183 G200 G201 G202 G202N G202S G203 G204 G205 G206 G208 G208E G208W G209 G212 G212A G212G G214 G215 G217 G219 G221 G222 G223 G224 G235 G236 G237 G240 G253 G255 G260 G270 G271 G272 G273 G274 G275 G280 G281 G300 G313 G325 G326 G327 G328 G329 G330 G331 G332 G334 G335 G336 G337 G339 G340 G341 G342 G344 G345 G346 G347 G349 G361 G362 G373 G375 G376 G383 G393 G400 G414 G424 G426 G427 G430 G431 G432 G432B G434 G435 G436 G437 G438 G439 G440 G442 G443 G444 G444W G445 G445N G446 G448 G449 G450 G451 G452 G452E G452W G454 G455 G456 G457 G458 G459 G460 G461 G462 G463 G465 G466 G467 G468 G469 G470 G471 G472 G472E G472W G473 G475 G476 G476A G477 G477A G478 G479 G481 G482 G483 G484 G485 G485A G487 G488 G489 G490 G500 G500N G521 G534 G540 G541 G549 G550 G551 G552 G553 G575 G577 G578 G579 G580 G581 G582 G583 G584 G585 G586 G587 G588 G590 G591 G592 G593 G594 G595 G597 G598 G599 G629 G633 G633S G642 G648 G650 G651 G652 G653 G655 G656 G657 G659 G659S G660 G661 G662 G663 G664 G665 G666 G667 G668 G669 G670 G675 G677 G678 G679 G680 G701 G731 G757 G765 G775 G781 G782 G787 G787E G787W G795 G802 G850 G850S G851 G852 G853 G854 G855 G856 G857 G858 G859 G864 G877 G880 G885 GA009 GR7 GR8 GR11 Page 2 H1 H1A H2 H2A H2S H3N H3S H4 H4A H4B H6 H7 H8 H10 H11 H12 H13 H14 H19 H20 H21 H22 H23 H24 H25 H29 H31 H34 H35 H39 H43 H44 H49 H51 H52 H53 H54 H55 H59 H60 H62 H64 H65 H66 H67 H68 H70 H72 H73 H74 H76 H78 H87 H89 H91 H92 H93 H95 H96 H98 H100 H102 H103 H104 H105 H106 H107 H108 H109 H110 H111 H112 H113 H114 H115 H116 H119 H133 H135 H164 H169 H185 H202 H215 H217 H219 H246 H300 H301 H302 H325 H330 H455 H500 H520 H600 H612 INSF1 INSF2 INSF3 INSF6 INSF7 INSF8 INSF9 J1 J2 J3 J4 J5 J5S J6 J7 J8 J9 J10 J10A J10B J10C J10D J10E J10F J10G J10H J11 J12 J13 J14 J15 J16 J17 J18 J19 J20 J21 J22 J23 J24 J25 J26 J27 J28 J29 J30 J31 J32 J33 J34 J35 J36 J37 J38 J39 J40 J41 J42 J43 J44 J45 J46 J47 J48 J49 J50 J51 J52 J53 J54 J55 J56 J57 J58 J59 J60 J61 J62 J63 J64 J65 J66 J67 J68 J69 J70 J71 J71F J72 J73 J74 J75 J76 J77 J78 J79 J80 J81 J82 J83 J84 J85 J86 J87 J88 J89 J90 J91 J92 J93 J94 J95 J96 J97 J98 J99 J100 J101 J102 J103 J104 J105 J106 J107 J108 J109 J110 J111 J112 J113 J114 J115 J116 J117 J118 J119 J120 J121 J122 J123 J124 J125 J126 J127 J128 J129 J130 J131 J132 J133 J134 J135 J136 J137 J138 J139 J140 J141 J142 J143 J144 J145 J146 J147 J148 J149 J150 J151 J152 J153 J154 J155 J156 J157 J158 J159 J160 J161 J162 J163 J164 J165 J166 J167 J168 J169 J170 J171 J172 J173 J174 J175 J177 J178 J179 J180 J181 J182 J183 J184 J185 J186 J187 J188 J189 J190 J191 J192 J193 J195 J196 J197 J198 J199 J200 J202 J203 J204 J206 J207 J208 J209 J210 J211 J212 J213 J215 J217 J218 J219 J220 J222 J223 J225 J227 J230 J231 J232 J233 J236 J239 J240 J244 J257 J341 J475 J476 J477 J478 J479 J480 J481 J482 J483 J484 J485 J486 J487 J488 J489 J490 J500 J501 J502 J503 J504 J505 J506 J507 J508 J509 J510 J511 J512 J513 J514 J515 J516 J517 J518 J519 J521 J522 J523 J524 J525 J526 J527 J528 J529 J530 J531 J533 J534 J535 J536 J537 J538 J539 J540 J541 J542 J543 J545 J546 J547 J548 J549 J550 J551 J552 J553 J554 J555 J556 J558 J559 J560 J561 J562 J563 J564 J565 J566 J567 J568 J569 J570 J571 J572 J573 J574 J575 J576 J577 J578 J579 J580 J581 J582 J583 J584 J585 J586 J587 J588 J589 J590 J591 J592 J593 J594 J595 J596 J597 J598 J599 J600 J614 J625 J804R J814R J888R J889R J901 J903 J904 J905 J906 J910 J917 J996R KLM03 KLM10 L7 L74 L300 L306 L308E L503 L508 L513 L521 L600 L602 L607 L608 L609 L610 L612 L613 L613A L616 L617 L618 L621 L623 L727 L745 L775 L862 L919 L975 L983 L990 L996 L997 LH466 LH668 M3 M12 M77 M450 M451 M452 M601 M602 M603 M604 M607 M609 M611 M625 M636 M639 M643 M725 M726 M728 M736 M738 M744 M748 M750 M852 M854 M864 M865 M872 M978 M987 N065 N2E N4B N5A N6A N7A N8A N10A N12B N13B N14A N15B N16A N17B N18C N19B N20B N21B N22A N23E N24E N25B N26A N28C N29A N30A N31C N32A N33C N34C N36E N37A N38E N39A N40E N41C N42B N44B N45A N46E N47A N48E N49A N50E N51B N52E N53B N54E N55A N56C N58A N60A N61B N62A N63B N64C N65B N66C N67B N68C N70B N72B N74B N75B N76A N77B N78A N79B N80B N81B N82B N83B N84B N86B N88A N91B N93B N94A N95B N96A N97B N98A N100B N102B N105B N107B N109B N111B N112B N113B N114C N115B N116A N121B N123A N124B N125A N126B N127A N128B N129B N130 N130B N130C N134B N135B N137B N139C N141B N142B N144B N146B N148B N149B N151E N153C N155A N160B N160C N161E N162B N163E N164B N165E N167E N168B N169A N170C N171A N172B N173B N175C N177C N179C N180B N181E N183C N184B N185A N188B N190B N192B N193C N193E N195C N197C N200B N202B N204B N206C N208E N209B N210C N211C N220B N224E N225B N227B N228B N230C N232C N240C N242B N248C N250E N252C N254A N256A N258A N260A N264A N268B N270B N272C N274G N276A N278A N280A N282A N284B N288C N292C N294C N296E N298G N302C N304E N306C N308E N312A N322B N326B N328C N332B N334C N336G N338C N342B N344B N346A N348C N352C N354C N356C N358B N362B N372C N374C N376C N378E N382G N384E N386G N388H N392E N394E N396B N398B N402C N412B N414C N416C N424C N426C N428B N432B N434B N436A N464B N466B N468B N472B N474B N484B N486B N488B N492B N494B N496B N498B N512B N514B N516B N518B N522B N532C N544B N552B N554B N581 N607 N616 N623 N726 N741 N744 N745 N747 N750 N759 N774 N850 N851 N851A N858 N862 N866 N870 N872 N873 N976 N979 NCA1 NCA2 NCA3 NCA4 NCA5 NCA6 NCA7 NCA8 NCA9 NCA10 NCA11 NCA13 NCA14 NCA15 NCA17 NCA19 NCA20 NCA22 NCA24 NCA28 NCA30 NCA31 NCAA NCAB NCAC NCAD NCAE NCAF NOVMR OSCAR OTR1 OTR3 OTR4 OTR5 OTR6 OTR8 OTR10 OTR11 OTR12 OTR13 OTR14 OTR15 OTR16 OTR17 OTR18 OTR19 OTR20 OTR24 OTR26 OTR28 OTR30 P3A P11 P65A P73 P75 P121 P122 P206 P600 P601 P602 P603 P605 P606 P607 P608 P609 P614 P615 P619 P621 P622 P729 P854 P990 P992 P999 PTS1 PTS2 PTS3 PTS4 PTSN PTSO PTSP PTSQ PTSR PTSS Q1 Q2 Q13 Q14 Q15 Q16 Q18 Q26 Q32 Q36 Q38 Q60 Q64 Q76 Q83 Q94 Q144 Q158 Q168 Q172 Q188 Q473 Q499 Q654 R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 R7 R8 R9 R10 R11 R11B R11E R11G R11M R11N R11P R11S R11T R11U R11W R12 R13 R14 R15 R16 R17 R18 R19 R20 R21 R22 R22B R22D R22E R22F R22G R22I R22L R22M R22N R22P R22W R22Z R23 R24 R25 R26 R27 R27A R27B R28 R29 R30 R30A R30B R30F R30G R30K R30L R30N R30P R30T R30V R31 R32 R33 R34 R35 R36 R37 R39 R40 R41 R42 R43 R45 R47 R49 R50 R51 R52 R53 R54 R56 R57 R58 R60 R66 R67 R72 R73 R75 R76 R77 R78 R80 R84 R93 R99 R101 R102 R105 R107 R109 R109A R110 R111 R112 R114 R118 R120 R121 R122 R123 R124 R125 R126 R127 R130 R130A R130B R130G R130W R160 R161 R193 R200 R201 R202 R203 R204 R205 R206 R207 R208 R210 R211 R211B R211G R212 R213 R214 R215 R219 R219E R219W R220 R221 R222 R223 R226 R227 R228 R231 R232 R233 R236 R240 R243 R244 R245 R246 R247 R292 R299 R300 R301 R325 R326 R328 R328E R328W R329 R330 R332 R334 R336 R337 R339 R340 R341 R342 R343 R344 R346 R347 R348 R348A R349 R351 R361 R362 R363 R364 R365 R366 R367 Page 3 R368 R369 R370 R371 R401 R409 R410 R433 R435 R450 R451 R452 R453 R454 R456 R457 R460E R460W R461 R461N R461S R462 R462N R462S R463 R464 R465 R467 R468 R469 R470 R471 R472 R473 R474 R480 R481 R481A R482 R483 R484 R485 R486 R487 R488 R489 R491 R495 R505 R507 R512 R513 R514 R515 R519 R522 R526 R558 R560 R563 R564 R564E R567 R567W R568 R570 R576 R577 R578 R580 R581 R582 R583 R584 R585 R587 R588 R590 R591 R592 R595 R596 R598 R599 R603 R625 R628 R630 R635 R640 R640A R644 R645 R650 R652 R654 R655 R659 R660 R661 R683 R723 R724 R750 R753 R760 R763 R773 R775 R776 R777 R778 R779 R783 R784 R785 R794 R803 R854 R874 R878 R883 R888 R890 R899 R975 R976 R978 R981 R982 R983 R984 R985 R986 R987 R988 R990 R993 RK001 RK002 RK003 RR1 RR2 RR3 RR4 RR5 RR6 RR7 RR10 RR11 RR12 RR13 RR16 RR22 RR23 RR30 RTE1 RTE2 RTE3 RTE4 RTE5 RTE6 RTE7 RTE8 RTE9 RTE10 RTE11 RTE12 SAS01 SAS09 SAS1 SAS2 SAS3 SAS4 SAS5 SAS6 SAS11 SAS12 SAS16 SAS17 SAS28 SCAG SCAH SCAI SCAJ SCAK SIERA SP1 SRT SRT1 SRT2 SRT3 SWR06 SWR13 T002 T2 T3 T6 T8 T9 T11 T12 T13 T14 T15 T16 T21 T23 T25 T27 T28 T29 T31 T50 T51 T53 T54 T55 T56 T57 T58 T59 T63 T65 T70 T71 T74 T81 T91 T93 T96 T97 T98 T100 T101 T102 T103 T104 T105 T131 T134 T139 T160 T200 T202 T203 T204 T205 T206 T314 T316 T317 T318 T466 T467 T468 T469 T470 T471 T472 T473 T474 T475 T476 T477 T478 T501 T502 T503 T550 T551 T623 T632 T850 T997 TA9 TANGO TB1 TB2 TB4 TB5 TB6 TB6HL TB6S TB7 TEST1 TG1 TG1S TG5 TG11 TG22 THTE1 THTE2 TL1 TL3 TL3N TL4 TL8 TL9 TR1 TR1N TR3 TR7 TR9 TR10 TR11 TR23 TR24 TR25 TR26 TR27 UA1 UA2 UA3 UA4 UA5 UA6 UA7 UA9 UA10 UA12 UA13 UA14 UA15 UA16 UA17 UA18 UA19 UA20 UA21 UA22 UA22A UA23 UA24 UA25 UA26 UA27 UA28 UA29 UA30 UA31 UA32 UA33 UA34 UA35 UA38 UA39 UA40 UA41 UA42 UA43 UA44 UA47 UA48 UA53 UA55 UA56 UA57 UA58 UA67 UA68 UA74 UA83 UA87 UA96 UA97 UA98 UA101 UA109 UA124 UA131 UA137 UA144 UA145 UA152 UA214 UA225 UA227 UA230 UA239 UA242 UA245 UA247 UA251 UA260 UA263 UA271 UA275 UA277 UA279 UA295 UA300 UA301 UA302 UA303 UA304 UA305 UA306 UA307 UA308 UA309 UA310 UA311 UA312 UA314 UA315 UA316 UA317 UA318 UA319 UA320 UA321 UA322 UA323 UA324 UA327 UA333 UA341 UA342 UA345 UA353 UA400 UA401 UA402 UA403 UA404 UA405 UA406 UA407 UA408 UA409 UA410 UA411 UA420 UA425 UA432 UA445 UA451 UA474 UA475 UA479 UA481 UA482 UA485 UA487 UA496 UA498 UA502 UA509 UA511 UA516 UA532 UA550 UA551 UA552 UA553 UA554 UA555 UA556 UA557 UA558 UA559 UA560 UA561 UA562 UA563 UA565 UA566 UA567 UA568 UA570 UA572 UA573 UA574 UA600 UA601 UA602 UA603 UA604 UA605 UA606 UA607 UA608 UA609 UA610 UA611 UA612 UA613 UA614 UA615 UA617 UA618 UA620 UA626 UA632 UA636 UA649 UA665 UA727 UA754 UA756 UA758 UA766 UA770 UA779 UA869 UA873 UA905 UB1 UB2 UB3 UB4 UB5 UB6 UB7 UB7W UB8 UB9 UB10 UB11 UB12 UB14 UB15 UB16 UB17 UB18 UB19 UB20 UB21 UB23 UB25 UB26 UB27 UB28 UB29 UB31 UB32 UB33 UB34 UB35 UB37 UB38 UB39 UB40 UB41 UB42 UB45 UB46 UB47 UB48 UB49 UB54 UB56 UB58 UB60 UB61 UB63 UB64 UB65 UB69 UB71 UB77 UB92 UB95 UB96 UB98 UB100 UB102 UB103 UB111 UB112 UB141 UB144 UB146 UB161 UB162 UB190 UB191 UB198 UB199 UB230 UB243 UB248 UB281 UB282 UB284 UB295 UB315 UB317 UB321 UB335 UB352 UB370 UB372 UB373 UB374 UB376 UB384 UB400 UB404 UB449 UB459 UB462 UB481 UB493 UB499 UB500 UB503 UB510 UB520 UB525 UB526 UB527 UB528 UB529 UB531 UB532 UB533 UB535 UB536 UB554 UB555 UB556 UB560 UB561 UB600 UB601 UB602 UB612 UB614 UB646 UB652 UB677 UB678 UB679 UB680 UB681 UB682 UB683 UB684 UB686 UB687 UB688 UB689 UB690 UB691 UB694 UB695 UB696 UB700 UB726 UB727 UB728 UB729 UB730 UB731 UB733 UB734 UB735 UB736 UB737 UB738 UB753 UB764 UB767 UB790 UB879 UB881 UB882 UB891 UB904 UG3 UG4 UG5 UG6 UG7 UG8 UG9 UG25 UG26 UG27 UG29 UG30 UG31 UG32 UG33 UG34 UG35 UG36 UG37 UG38 UG39 UG40 UG41 UG42 UG43 UG44 UG45 UG46 UG47 UG49 UG52 UG53 UG57 UG59 UG60 UG63 UG68 UG80 UG82 UG83 UG85 UG87 UG93 UG1 UG2 UG10 UG12 UG13 UG14 UG15 UG16 UG18 UG20 UG21 UG22 UG23 UG101 UG102 UG104 UG105 UG106 UG107 UG108 UG109 UG110 UG114 UG120 UG122 UG124 UG125 UG183 UG215 UG224 UG235 UG236 UG237 UG240 UG253 UG260 UG270 UG275 UG280 UG281 UG294 UG313 UG325 UG360 UG361 UG362 UG364 UG365 UG373 UG375 UG376 UG383 UG400 UG414 UG424 UG425 UG426 UG427 UG428 UG430 UG431 UG432 UG433 UG434 UG435 UG436 UG437 UG438 UG439 UG440 UG442 UG443 UG444 UG445 UG446 UG447 UG448 UG449 UG450 UG465 UG478 UG521 UG550 UG551 UG585 UG594 UG595 UG633 UG650 UG651 UG652 UG653 UG654 UG655 UG656 UG657 UG658 UG660 UG661 UG664 UG680 UG703 UG705 UG709 UG739 UG757 UG765 UG802 UG850 UG851 UG852 UG853 UG854 UG855 UG856 UG857 UG858 UG859 UG860 UG861 UG862 UG864 UG877 UG880 UG885 UH1 UH2 UH4 UH6 UH7 UH10 UH11 UH15 UH17 UH20 UH24 UH25 UH31 UH35 UH36 UH37 UH40 UH45 UH47 UH51 UH52 UH53 UH54 UH59 UH64 UH65 UH66 UH67 UH70 UH71 UH72 UH73 UH76 UH79 UH80 UH81 UH85 UH86 UH87 UH89 UH94 UH100 UH101 UH102 UH103 UH104 UH105 UH110 UH111 UH112 UH113 UH114 UH116 UH119 UH134 UH136 UH171 UH173 UH200 UH201 UH205 UH206 UH209 UH226 UH258 UH278 UH278 UH300 UH301 UH302 UH306 UH325 UH333 UH336 UH408 UH455 UH488 UH489 UH490 UH491 UH500 UH600 UH612 UJ1 UJ1E UJ1W UJ2 UJ3 UJ4 UJ5 UJ5S UJ6 UJ7 UJ8 UJ9 UJ10 UJ10C UJ10K UJ11 UJ11E UJ11W UJ12 UJ13E UJ13W UJ14 UJ14N UJ14S UJ15 UJ15E UJ15W UJ16 UJ17 UJ18 UJ19 UJ19E UJ19W UJ20 UJ20E UJ20W UJ216 UJ21E UJ21W UJ24 UJ24S UJ27 UJ28 UJ30 UJ31 UJ32 UJ33 UJ34 UJ35 UJ35E UJ35W UJ36 UJ37 UJ38 UJ39 UJ41 UJ42 UJ44 UJ45 UJ46 UJ47 UJ48 UJ50 UJ51 UJ52 UJ53 UJ54 UJ55 UJ56 UJ57 UJ60 UJ61 UJ63 UJ64 UJ65 UJ69 UJ70 UJ71 UJ74 UJ81 UJ83 UJ84 UJ95 UJ101 UJ102 UJ158 UJ200 UJ299 UJ428 UJ614 UJ903 UJ905 UJ906 UL2 UL3 UL5 UL7 UL9 UL14 UL39 UL50 UL74 UL200 UL203 UL300 UL301 UL302 UL304 UL305 UL306 UL308 UL309 UL310 UL312 UL315 UL317 UL318 UL320 UL322 UL324 UL401 UL402 UL425 UL480 UL550 UL556 UL600 UL601 UL602 UL603 UL604 UL605 UL606 UL607 UL608 UL609 UL610 UL611 UL612 UL613 UL614 UL615 UL616 UL617 UL618 UL619 UL620 UL621 UL622 UL623 UL624 UL650 UL675 UL722 UL726 UL727 UL729 UL736 UL739 UL775 UL850 UL851 UL856 UL862 UL864 UL865 UL867 UL868 UL919 UL975 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Their strategy to kill all the penguins

[jabapi]

This must be their latest attempt to kill Linux by wiping out all the penguins from the planet using Freon.

Re:Their strategy to kill all the penguins

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG LOL tahts so funi i tihnk i wet mysefl!

Step carefully...

[weave]

Being quite an old flock()er, I can recallthe video game boom of late 70s early 80s. Atari was champ, then something happened. The market became too fractured. Atari 5200, Colecovision, and some others I can't remember. Then Atari announces 7800 shortly after 5200 was out and no one wanted to buy a 5200. Eventually, it all just died out.

It wasn't until the NES rose out of the console market's ashes did things kick back in gear. One thing that was great about the NES was it was stable and long lived. The same goes for the next market leader, Playstation.

Microsoft could very well risk killing the entire console market if it introduces too much confusion and churn into it. If they make consoles as complicated as PCs, a lot of buyers may just be turned off. Think of all the people, right down to the poorest you know, that have a console but no computer in their house.

Re:Step carefully...

[Buck2]

Hello? NES wasn't any more stable than the 2600 ... stability wasn't a problem.

And, obviously it couldn't have been long lived as it rose out of the ashes (well, I guess it could, but it just wasn't, it was new, built in the ashes).

[begin pulling things out of my ass]
So, anyway, the NES kicked ass because it was a generation ahead of the other crap and they packaged SMB with it ... which immediately addicted everyone who looks twice at those things.
[end]

Re:Step carefully...

[weave]

NES wasn't any more stable than the 2600

Damn the English language at times...

By stable, I meant, consistent and long lived. The Atari 2600 came out in 1976 and was king for several years. The NES was the #1 console for ages as well. Having an unfragmented console market back then meant that all of your friends had the same system and you could haul your carts around, share, play together, etc...

I just don't think the market can support too many consoles. My closet is full of short-lived failed consoles, like my 3DO, Dreamcast, and N64.

Looks to me like PS2 is the winner this round. Just ask any kid who is current-generation consoleless what console they want.

Re:Step carefully...

[scot4875]

My closet is full of short-lived failed consoles, like my 3DO, Dreamcast, and N64.

Lumping the N64 in with the 3DO and Dreamcast is just stupid. The thing had a 5-year lifespan, sold approximately 30 million units world-wide, was extremely profitable for Nintendo, and had dozens of titles that sold in the million-plus range, and many that sold 10 million-plus.

The 3DO had a tiny install base -- mostly hobbyists. The Dreamcast sold relatively well, but was costing Sega more than they could afford to keep it afloat.

If, by "failure," you mean "not the widest selling console," then yeah, the N64 was a failure, and probably the Gamecube and XBox will be too.

Of course, Britney Spears sells more albums than Mr. Bungle, but does that make Mr. Bungle a failure? And does that mean I should consider myself to have good musical taste because I own the latest Britney Spears album?

And as for the original post, about the "fractured" video game industry in the early 80's -- basically, Atari rose to the top and then sat there. They started releasing crappy, unoriginal games based on Movie licenses that were nothing more than blatant advertising vehicles. (E.T., anyone?) The other console makers saw an opportunity to make easy money by copying Atari, and didn't bring anything new to the table in the process, exacerbating the problem. People quit buying them because they were (at the time) smart enough to see the games for the garbage they were. It didn't have anything to do with there being "too many consoles."

I'm just waiting for the same thing to happen again -- and amazed that it has taken so long. There's so much garbage on the market that unless you're dedicated to finding good games, you'd never know what to get.

--Jeremy

Re:Step carefully...

[Kashif Shaikh]

It wasn't until the NES rose out of the console market's ashes did things kick back in gear. One thing that was great about the NES was it was stable and long lived. The same goes for the next market leader, Playstation

Ummm no. SNES was the next market leader. Even though Sega Genesis came out first(4 months I believe), SNES still climbed to the top 'cause they had a lot of quality titles. However Megadrive(SG)doing quite well in Japan.

One of the primary reasons why Playstation was the next leader was because of Nintendo's arrogance with N64 cartridge format(they made gobs of money on royalties from their 'custom' cartridge format and didn't want to lose it).

Playstation2 is similar to SNES, as the current market leader. Recent stats show PS2 selling double of GC or Xbox(60K units vs 30K) in North America. In Japan, PS2 is dominating.

Now whats interesting is: Who's the next NES or Playstation?

PS. I'm glad M$ is getting smacked around the console market. Don't they know Halo isn't going to save them?

The Future, Near and Far

[krmt]

This article didn't really say a whole lot about where things are headed. Lots of speculation, but I'm sure the X-Box team doesn't know a whole lot themselves yet. I'm still not convinced that the hard drive is really worthwhile for the price range. I can see some benefits for online gaming, but with sufficient RAM it shouldn't be a necessity.

I think the idea of replacing the TV with the X-Box is a really good one for a lot of obvious reasons, but unless they provide a CD or DVD burner, there's no way I'd toss my VCR. You simply want to archive stuff (favorite episodes and such), and if you've got an X-Box hard drive full of MP3's or whatever, you're not going to want to go around deleting things prematurely. If they make it in to a full TiVO-like service and provide a really huge hard drive (and a burner too!) they would have a potentially killer product on their hands.

I think what'll be really interesting is to see whose online gaming model will play out better. Sony's model is more anarchic, while Microsoft's is better planned and more centralized. Kind of like the difference between Id and Blizzard. In my experience, the random Quake server is a hell of a lot better than a Battle.net game of Starcraft, but we'll see if this will extend to console-based online gaming.

I'm betting that the online gaming thing won't become critical at least until the PS3 hits. It's pretty much a fringe thing right now, but I have no doubt that it'll become much more important once the console makers really get their acts together. Still, I always think of console gaming as being a lot more social than computer gaming, with a bunch of people clustered around the TV playing Smash Bros or Goldeneye to be more likely than a bunch of people clustered around a hub playing Quake on their own monitors. Because of this, I'm betting less people will feel the need to hit the network to play games when they can just call a few friends to come over and play.

Munching tacos and swilling soda while beating your friends to pulp is a lot more fun when they're right there next to you doing it too.

we all know what a disaster Freon was... try again

[Daniel Quinlan]

When Freon was introduced, it replaced very dangerous/poisonous/explosive chemicals (such as ammonia) which caused a number of fatal accidents.

I remember an anecdote about a du Pont employee demonstrating the safety of the chemical by inhaling a good breath of Freon and blowing it out to extinguish a candle, demonstrating that it was both non-toxic and not explosive. Try that with ammonia!

Even if it may have had an impact on the ozone layer, there's more than just the safety component of the refrigerant chemical to consider. Where would food safety and preservation be without refrigeration? Without refrigeration, say hello to E. Coli and friends. Get used to salt-curing, preservatives, and freeze drying (yum). And then say goodbye to fresh seafood, out-of-season produce, frozen pizza, and a lot of the food that we eat.

Here's an article about the history of Freon and another about the history of the refrigerator. (Oops, it wasn't just a du Pont employee who did the demo, it was the actual inventor... sounds like a lot of technology demos.)

MOD PARENT DOWN

[Anonymous Coward]

This F****N post manages to PW even netscape 4.7.

Thank you.

Re:MOD PARENT DOWN

[Anonymous Coward]

Opera too. Damn CLIT.

Yawn. You are so outdated.

[Anonymous Coward]

and your hair transplants are ugly and your mom wears army boots and eats alligator stew and armadillo skewers.

It would be great if..........

[phunhippy]

I would find it highly amusing if someone managed to crack the XBOX & write PVR software for it as well :) since it has the HD on it already..

Re:It would be great if..........

[theRhinoceros]

That would require the Xbox having a video-in port of some kind, which IIRC, it does not have.

Re:It would be great if..........

[Anonymous Coward]

That would require the Xbox having a video-in port of some kind, which IIRC, it does not have.

minor details ;)

xbox as VCR

[Joseph Lam]

Son: Dad can I play Halo now?

Dad: boy don't touch my little Freon tonite

Son: (WTF...)

Dad: I've scheduled recording of Britney show

Son: ...but it ran out of disc space last night already. I told you to clean up those pRoN thing...

Re:xbox as VCR

[Anonymous Coward]

1. You need to continue in your study of English and writing. When you enter 9th grade next Fall pay special attention to when they talk about sentences.

2. People don't store 'pRoN' on set-top boxes. That's what the hard drives in computers are used for.

3. Adults with children old enough to play video games don't watch Brittney Spears.

4. Households with the new X-Box in the living room generally have the old X-Box down in the rec room for the kids.

$500 is just the start

[will_die]

Don't forget the $10 charge for the TV listing and the charge for Xbox live. However under a combined box it would be stupid to have theses as seperate charges so expect a single around $20+ monthly charge which contains both. So now when you get sick of playing the game online you still have to pay for that to get your TV listings. And the even better thing is now you cannot sent the kids off to another room to play games while you want to watch your recorded shows. Overall they are just wrapping two failed products in a bright bow, and fooling some people.

Will it be still sold at loss?

[Alex Belits]

I mean, one thing is selling a game console at loss -- you can license games, and another thing is to sell at loss a device that is perfectly capable of independent operation. And if they expect that they can tie PVR to a mandatory subscription, their worst enemy would be a... PC.

needs a different name.

[Rhinobird]

Freon just isn't cool enough for me (*cough*)

How about:
CFC
Ozone destroyer
Aerosol
cancer box?
Defender of capitalism against the demon hordes of cancerous GPL software?
F-box
money-pit
DRM testbed
We Control Your TV Set
Tivo+
What were we making again?

I'm sure someone will be able to come up with more names.

Re:needs a different name.

[damien_kane]

Or... 'All Your Base Are Belong To Us'

Re:needs a different name.

[Anonymous Coward]

The UltimateTV++X-Box#.NET

Re:needs a different name.

[Anonymous Coward]

The UltimateTV++X-Box#.NET-XP2000GTiTurbo2

Are they nuts?!

[prockcore]

This is really quite amazing to me. Microsoft truly is the most braindead company.

Why in the world would anyone buy an xbox now? We now know it's going to be replaced with "something much much better" in a little while.

Now instead of making money selling xbox's and xbox games, everyone will just hold on to their cash and wait for Freon(tm).

In the meantime xbox-exclusive game makers will bleed red, and drop support for the xbox.. when Freon actually makes it out the door, it'll have no games because the game makers aren't going to invest the time and money on a product that already burned them once.

Freon will kill all of MS's hopes in the console market. And you can bookmark me on that.

Re:Are they nuts?!

[larien]

Hrm, aren't PS1s still selling despite "something much much better" being available now? Perhaps that's died off a little, but ISTR that the PS1 was selling better than the Xbox, certainly in Japan (but that's a weird market anyway...).

Re:Are they nuts?!

[Salsaman]

Great ! So when we get Linux on the xbox, we'll have tons of discounted hardware to run it on.

Go Microsoft !

Re:Are they nuts?!

[night_flyer]

the PSone is only 49.99, thats why it is still selling... that and there are about a zillion games out there for it...

Re:Are they nuts?!

[plumby]

But that is probably down to two factors. The PS1 has vast amounts of software available to it (admittedly much of it is pretty poor), and it is £50, and therefore almost a impulse buy. I suspect many of the people that are buying them are parents after a cheap console, with large amounts of software to choose from, to keep their kids happy. An X-Box, with few titles in comparison, and with a price tag of £200 is probably out of reach of these sort of buyers.

Re:Are they nuts?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Or people will stop buying Playstation2's and Game Cubes thinking "ooh, Freon is coming soon!"

JK

Re:Are they nuts?!

[tlh1005]

Well that depends on what your perception of a "little while is". Assuming this article is correct and things won't change timetable and market wise, (A BIG ASSUMPTION) an improved version of the Xbox console will not be released until approx 2005. This isn't any different than what Sony plans to do, and has done in the past. The way I read the article Freon is only an Xbox with additional NON-gaming features like the PVR. MS may lose based on the initial problems of when they released the Xbox but I can't see them losing more just by adding a PVR next year or so.

I've got a PS2 and I think its the better machine, but admittedly I am partial to Sony products, I know they have a larger market share on game titles, and also I haven't been exposed to playing the Xbox. I'm not an MS junkie and Kudos to anyone who can do anything better... but really, whats the point in always expecting or wanting them to fail. I for one would rather see them produce better products :-)

Re:Are they nuts?!

[rnd()]

the prices are different... so what you're really asking is "Why would someone want to save $300?".

This is no different than buying hardware: There will always be something better. Why do people buy the latest and greatest hardware when they will surely be able to get better hardware for the same price (or a substantial price reduction on the same hardware) a few months?

Logic, anyone?

Re:Are they nuts?!

[tlh1005]

The PS1 is also very old. This is not a valid comparison because eventually we know the Xbox will have a larger game selection and will also be as cheap as the PS1. Can you really tell me the Xbox 3 years from now at ~$50 isn't a better bargain than the PS1 at $50 today? I'm as big of a PS2 person as the next guy but please you guys, I feel like an MS spokesman here.

Re:Are they nuts?!

[larien]

I'm not as sure as you seem to be that the Xbox will have a larger game selection. Added to this, in 3 years time, there will be better consoles (MS or not) which means that the Xbox will be looking dated and will only be worth the $50 it will be sold at, i.e. it'll be about the same value.

In any event, the point is that an old console is still selling well despite their being better consoles out there, which is the point I was trying to make.

Re:Are they nuts?!

[tlh1005]

I agree with you totally about the PS1. While the Xbox doesn't interest ME at all for now though, I could def. see it being desireable to others down the road at ~$50.... as a game machine and a hacked box running any of the code people are trying to get to run on it right now (linux, Mame etc).

Re:Are they nuts?!

[fferreres]

"... game makers aren't going to invest the time and money on a product that already burned them once."

Hey wait, they have ALWAYS waited for Microsoft to "get it right this time". They only get it right in the third iteration or so (Office 95, DirectX 6, Windows 98SE, etc, etc.).

Why do I have this feeling that your prediction will miserably fail?

Re:Are they nuts?!

[buck_wild]

I'm with you. I honestly don't see MS forcing Sony out of the market, so why not support a worthy contender?

Besides, if nothing else, this will encourage Sony to make quicker work of bringing out a better product of their own.

Re:Are they nuts?!

[tlh1005]

THANKYOU It is so nice to see an unbiased opinion on here sometimes.

Seems obvious to me

[rattler14]

Every time there is an article about microsoft trying to take over our living rooms, everyone freaks out and no one can seem to understand why they are so desperate to do such a thing.

Well, simply put, they have to. Microsoft is a huge company, used to churning out huge profits. That was all fine and dandy as long as they could continue to create (or copy, incoporate, etc) new operating systems and software packages that people would continually purchase on a somewhat regular basis (every software/hardware cycle). The problem that they seem to be facing over the past few years is that NO ONE wants to upgrade their systems anymore. Their software, a huge part of their profits, has reached a point where users are quite happy (i know, how sad to be happy with their products) with them. SO, no matter how many rebates or promotions they offer, there are still a lot of computers out their running windows 2000 and even 98 and NT4. Why? Cause the new features that office XP has are worthless to many people.

So, how does this all tie in? Microsoft needs to find a new way to generate continual profits. It can't push people into buying software upgrades as they could in years past. The only way they will be able to sustain this money influx is to expand to new markets (video games, TV, various website services) as well as try and charge monthly costs for their OS (i believe that they are still trying to do so).

So, stop being suprised about all of this. It's gonna happen. And if you don't like it, don't buy their products/services. They currently don't have dominance in these other markets, and they won't as long as people don't buy all of their crap.

Just think of the potential!

[robolemon]

Microsoft Exec: So this device allows our customers to record themselves playing Halo to show off to their friends?

XBox Engineer: Oh, um, well we forgot about that feature.

Microsoft Exec: OK, hmm, can we release a software patch?

XBox Engineer: We'd love to, but we've lost the source code.

Microsoft Exec: What happened to it?!

XBox Engineer: Well you made us store it with Digital Rights Management, but there was a bug in the DRM server and...

Microsoft Exec: Blah blah blah! That means nothing to me. (Divine Inpsiration) Hey!!! What do you think about this... We can make a cable that takes the output from the XBox and inputs it into the TiVo thingy!

XBox Engineer: Well, that should work...

Microsoft Exec: Man, we could probably sell something like that for 50 bucks a pop!

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[HFXPro]

The process that happens inside a refrigeration system is based on physics. It does not matter which gas. In fact, water, alchohol, and even good old CO2 all can be used as refrigerents and do just a good a job cooling food as Freon did. Well, I should note that water wouldn't be that good for freezing stuff, however for cooling you house it would work fine.

Why do these all work fine? Because they are based on physics. Physics which say temperature and pressure are directly related. Physics which say that as a substance changes state it must either gain heat or loose heat. That said, there are many substances which can be used safely in place of Freon.

That said, I should note that many new refrigerents can be quite flammable under certain conditions. Plus lets not forget what CFC based refrigents do to the ozone layer. A problem much worse for everyone then the ammonia.

Recorded BSOD

[nvainio]

Freon will be capable of 'playing games but also offering television capabilities, such as pausing live TV and recording shows onto a computer hard drive.'

Does this mean that I will get three hours of recorded Blue screen of Death on my hard disk?

Re:Recorded BSOD

[GigsVT]

Actually, I may be wrong, but I think the DishPVR 501 is based on a microsoft core, and I have gotten 7 hour recordings of a black screen before. That thing is buggy and slow as hell. At least the next DishPVR is linux based.

Re:Freon worked better than R-134a

[tRoll with Butter]

The true disaster is owning a vehicle that uses freon (Also known by its generic name of R-12) and having to retrofit it to use R-134a (the same gas used in those "dust blaster" canned "air"). Most automotive air conditioners designed to use R-12 have inadequate condenser cooling capacity for R-134a and perform poorly after a retrofit. Don't believe me? Do a search on Google, it's true.

It is quite possible that Microsoft's use of Freon is a nostalgic refrence to "The Good Old Days" when women were homemakers, McDonalds burgers were kept toasty warm by styrofoam, insect poison was actually toxic, school shootings didn't exist and your air conditioning actually got *cold*.

Or maybe it's an analogy... If you consider Tivo as R-134a and Microsoft as Freon, does that mean Microsoft's offering is more expensive, bad for the enviorment, but much more appealing from a performence standpoint?

Did you know...

[Anonymous Coward]

That the letters in "Microsoft Freon" can be rearranged to spell "Force fist moron". Telling, isn't it?

The ironic thing about Freon

[BitwizeGHC]

Freon, the chemical, represents a moneymaking scheme that Bill Gates can only have wet dreams about.

See, the patents that DuPont held to the Freon compound expired in 1992... the same year the UN adopted a treaty banning the use of CFC-based refrigerants with support from DuPont and a lot of enviro-hype. The approved refrigerant, HFC-134a, is less efficient, highly toxic, and protected by exclusive patents owned by DuPont.

It's a bit like if Microsoft somehow got a law passed declaring Windows 98 illegal, and requiring all users to upgrade to Windows XP, replete with customs agents stopping smugglers of legitimate, but now contraband, Windows 98 copies at the border.

Believe me guys, MS is just small-time evil. Quasi-evil. Not evil enough.

Re:The ironic thing about Freon

[GigsVT]

Speaking of, right now recycled Freon is legal but expensive, but virgin Freon is cheap, so the mafia is running illegal virgin Freon in the US, from news reports I have read.

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[tomstdenis]

The process that happens inside a refrigeration system is based on physics. It does not matter which gas. In fact, water, alchohol, and even good old CO2 all can be used as refrigerents and do just a good a job cooling food as Freon did. Well, I should note that water wouldn't be that good for freezing stuff, however for cooling you house it would work fine.

Yet if you paid attention in your grade 9 science class you would have learned that not all chemicals work easily as well.

The process of refridgeration depends on a gas that expands quickly. When it expands it absorbs heat then you condense it elsewhere to let go of the heat.

freon apparently fit the bill since it had a nice efficiency behind it.

So the choices at the time were bad for environment freon or bad for the environment non-freon [recall wasting electricity is in fact bad for the environment].

Tom

OK

[Anonymous Coward]

which genius widened the page?

Re:OK

[anonymous cowfart]

That would be me.

weak name

[mieses]

maybe someone at MS was impressed by the cool gassy names the SGI Octane, O2, and Fuel but the best they could come up with was Freon.

Freon seems much more passive than the sgi names. but it is for couch-potatoes after all..

One interesting point from the article..

[gusnz]

...[The XBox's] costs are believed to be higher than Sony's, partly because of the hard drive and a version of its powerful Windows operating system included with each machine.

I can't help but wonder how much Microsoft is paying to license the "powerful Windows operating system" for each machine from itself. Development costs will surely have been an issue, but using it to explain the current loss is stretching it a little.

Anyway, the article is quite a good overview of the current console scene. I can't help but wonder, however, if Microsoft's "go it alone" strategy is the best choice, or whether they'd be better off licensing gaming technology to other manufacturers as they are planning for WMV (see link). It would reduce financial risk to them, mirrors their current strategy for OS dominance in the personal computer industry, and Nintendo has started to do this with its GameCube (Panasonic DVD/Gamecube combo). Or would this wind up suffering the same fate as the Nuon chipset?

MS launching probing attacks into a new sector

[Aliks]

The Xbox offers benefits to many parts of MS, and the investment necessary to establish a beachhead is small compared what they could win.

It seems clear that there is a huge marketplace in the home entertainment / home management space. The traditional PC / laptop and Office type apps aren't going to take this area by storm so some new thinking is needed.

First off it isn't clear what will turn out to be the paradigm shifter. New ways to run e-mail? Video interaction with chat groups over broadband? New games? Management of CD music centre? TiVo style access to TV content? Automating household security and energy management?

Any or all of these could be the key, but maybe something not on this list at all. The big thing for MS is to leverage current strengths to absolutely dominate the space they target.

From this point of view they need to establish a new common platform for H/W, S/W and comms under MS control.

Xbox offers

* A foothold in the livingroom via a games console, with a cashflow attached

* Testing out of the control technologies that will be needed to enforce a monopoly:

* Xbox architecture for coupling the OS and hardware so that only controlled, approved apps can run

* The chance to test out DRM and distribution apps (at least in the next Xbox release)

* MS mediation of interactive services, e-mail home shopping etc that are currently set top box based

* A viable platform for whatever does turn out to be the killer app/service in the home

A lot of people would love to see these kind of services up and running, but lack the muscle to do it on their own. If MS can ship enough Xbox class machines they should be able to attract third parties to deliver whats necessary (within MS rules of course)

Whatever happens I'm sure that Xbox and derivatives will not be money down the drain for MS

Codename: Freon

[Ichimusai]

I have a feeling that the name at least partly relates to the Nuon box. I don't know if any of you have seen the Nuon box, but Jeff Minter has done a substantial amount of work on it...

Microsoft strong point: STABILITY

[ishark]

"Hassium" - solid stable servers.

(Hassium has a 2.0ms half-life).

Cool!

[jimbolaya]

Freon sounds really cool. Ha, ha, get it? Freon? Cool? Okay, so it was pretty lame, but this is the first, last, and only time you'll hear me call something from Microsoft cool, so you better enjoy it!

x-box tv advertising?

[pubjames]

I don't have a games console, I've probably out-grown them - the last one I brought was a Sega Megadrive. But some of the TV/cinema ads I've seen recently have tempted me - a great one for Final Fantasy X on the PlayStation, and various ads for Nintendo games. I've also seen some great ads for PlayStation games at the cinema.

What I don't understand is - Microsoft say they are investing a few billion on the X-Box over the next few years - but where are the ads? Maybe it's different in the USA, but in the parts of Europe I frequent I've seen hardly any X-Box advertising recently. There was a burst of TV ads at the launch, but now virtually nothing.

I'll admit to not being as brilliant a businessman as Bill Gates, but I can't help thinking that spending a bit more on regular and compelling TV advertising might be a better idea than adding more functionality to the X-Box hardware.

What's happening with console advertising in other parts of the world?

DRM?

[bigbadwlf]

recording shows onto a computer hard drive

Sure... but only if the production company says you can.

Given their plans for "Palladium" and the EULA for the WMP service pack, does anyone think this thing isn't gonna be chock full o' DRM?

Re:Stable (as in...)

[Calomnious Awkward]

Is this a plea for a "stable" market, similar to the stable windows market ?
What you're talking about is a monopoly based on proprietary formats.
The real solution is an open format for games. A cartridge/CD/DVD that can be played on all consoles.

MS-NBC's Impartial Reporting

[DiscoBiscuit]

"The Xbox console isn't profitable for the Redmond, Wash., company and its costs are believed to be higher than Sony's, partly because of the hard drive and a version of its powerful Windows operating system included with each machine" ROFL!!! Powerful!??? As ever MSNBC continues to show its dedication to impartial, unbiased reporting.

combo-x-box?

[geoff lane]

Will it record TV while playing a game?

Probably not.

Pointless.

Re:combo-x-box?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it is like my 1-year old computer (with which I watch TV and record TV programs) it won't let you do this. Mine has 2 vid-cards (one for vid-capture and TV, the other's a GeForce for display, games, etc...) however the software I use strongly advise not to push the computer too far (i.e.: play games, convert video, etc...) when recording TV.

Will the XBOX2 -or rather XBOX1.5- include 2 vid cards ?

Probably not.

We're not the target market

[matrim99]

Besides the TV, let's look at all the extra "stuff" the average person can hook up to their "Honme Entertainment System": 5.1 Stereo & speakers, Cable/Sat box, DVD, VCR1/2, Tivo-like recording device, game console. You can buy each of those "add-ons" for under $200 at the most, so they're attainable to your "average" consumer.

Do you realize what a major pain in the ass it would be to hook up all those separate devices for your average person who can't even figure out how to program their VCR's clock? *THAT* will stop the masses from buying some (or all) of those components, not the cost. Read: loads of average people who WANT to spend their cash on these add-ons, but won't because the entry knowledge is simply too much for them to bother learning.

This is where the "do everything" boxes come in. All you have to do is plug in perhaps 4 wires, all color-coded, and *viola*! Instant home entertainment center with all the bells and whistles.

Now your average /. reader won't go for these all-in-one boxes, because we are willing to deal with the learning/troubleshooting curve to get everything hooked up correctly in order to get the *exact* components that we want.

For every /. reader, or "home-entertainment buff", there are at least 100 people who just want to plug in a few wires and *have the darn thing work*. It's with that majority that the big bucks are.

Unstoppable?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Is there no one on this planet who can challenge me?!" - General Zod, from the movie "Superman II"

Where have I heard this before?

[fw3]

Though it is unclear whether such a product will ever be built, its core concept appears to have the backing of Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates, who wrote in an internal memorandum in January

So much for other companies trying to raise funding to develop products in this market.

Oft-observed MS behavior:

• see a new technology;
• (sidebar: contact nascent developers of the new tecnology and express interest in 'partnership', get a feel for their approach);
• write press release announcing newest MS brainstorm, including vagues statements about timing;
• watch competition die off;
• maybe develop the technology, maybe not

Re:Where have I heard this before?

[freeBill]

My addenda are not in italics:

Oft-observed MS behavior:

• see a new technology

usually when developers start calling their developer assistance lines with code that should work according to the API documentation;

(sidebar: contact nascent developers of the new technology and express interest in 'partnership,' get a feel for their approach) allowing architecture and marketing people at MS to get a clear idea of the philosophy behind the code they already have in their possession;

write press release announcing newest MS brainstorm, including vague statements about timing while rewriting code to take advantage of undocumented hooks to more solid and efficient parts of the Windows API;

watch competition die off or release a new version of Windows in which the actual innovators' code won't run, but the secret-API code will;

maybe develop the technology, maybe not or promise Version 2.0 will have all the things people want, but can only get from the original innovator

Re:Where have I heard this before?

[Eryq]

How to deal with these PR releases, then?

Simple. Just ignore them, and do what you were planning to do before they came out. And convince others to do likewise.

Remember, the MS PR dept is not telling you what the company will actually do... it's telling you what they want investors (and competitors) to think it's going to do.

Yes, this is true for all companies, but MS seems say "oh, us too, we do that" more often than most, perhaps precisely for the "watch competition die off" point you mention.

Heck, if you can hang in there long enough, MS will probably eliminate most of your competition for you, then hopefully get bored and move onto promoting their Next Big Thing.

Ooooooh, I just can't wait...

[RobinH]

Ooooooh, I just can't wait until I can get Nimda on my Television!

Re:Stable (as in...)

[weave]

Good point, and I agree. If there was an open format with interchangable games between platforms, I would define that as stable as well. I just don't see that happening. :(

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[snatchitup]

Not to mention the fact that Freon is compatible with the compressors they operate in. It doesn't corrode like the others mentioned.

I heard a story on Freon in that if you check it out. The patent is expiring, or has expired. The company owning the patent (Dupont?) for fear of losing liscensing revenue has invented a new refrigerant and lobbied alongside the Greenie Weenies to outlaw Freon.

Follow the $'s dummy.

Re:Stable (as in...)

[thona]

I dont think it is a plea. It was only a statement of historical facts. Given that Consoles are extremely propietary, way moer than Windows (ii.e. you need permission from the producer to publish somethine, you need to buy extremely expensive development environments) and may also be extremely separate and distinct in their hardware, a non-uniform market does severly hamper sales.

With Windows you DO have a monopoly right now, BUT (a) everyone can publish for windows, the tools etc. dont cost that much (seriously - get proving for a Playstation 2 for Developers and THEN tell me that VIsual Studio is expensive) and there is no competition and will not be competition on hardware for a long time. Linux vs. Windows on games would still mean the same hardware basis.

As games are normally not playable on later versions of the console etc. upgrades to the console mean a lot more for the user than computer upgrades. A stable product line, thus, is encouraging sales to consoles, while an announced sucessor can kill sales on the current line.

The retrospective look that basically the market got killed when it fragmented and had to recover through a monopole is correct. Being able to lend out games and to get games from friends is a great factor for consoles.

MS, though, has some advantages here - as their system is built on standard computer components, they may be able to maintain compatibility for software.

Disaster

[ONOIML8]

"...we all know what a disaster the actual chemical Freon was."

Big assumption there cuz I don't know about any disaster. I do know that Freon had some very important uses in refrigeration and electronics which saved lives and improved the quality of life for millions.

How about just reporting the news without the emotional enviromental bullshit panic phrases. Thanks.

Re:Disaster

[Anonymous Coward]

you're an idiot, even by slashdot standards.

Re:Disaster

[Lordrashmi]

Actually your the one who is lacking intelligence. Dupont, the patent holders on Freon started the incredible shit storm surrounding it just as there patent was about to expire. If they had let it simply expire, any company would have been able to manufacture it, introducing competition which would have hurt Duponts monopoly.

So what does dupont do? Simple, tell everyone that Freon will destroy the world, get it banned and introduce a replacement. Voila, they have a safe monopoly again.

Re:Disaster

[borgasm]

Acutally, Freon was proven to be harmful to the environment. The CFC's do a number on that lovely canopy we call our atmosphere.

Substances such as R12 and R134 do not have the detremental effect.

Sure the cost of conversion for older freon systems is a little pricy, but for a few new O-rings and tubes, I'll dump that harmful stuff.

I'm also wondering how it has saved lives.

And I'm also assuming cuz = because. I could be wrong.

Re:Disaster

[Dutchmaan]

How silly of all those scientists to have come up with reproducible chemical equations showing how harmful Freon is...

..and all along it was Dupont marketing protecting their monopoly... I feel so foolish. Thank you for letting me see the light.

Re:Disaster

[Lordrashmi]

Not saying that Freon was good for you, but it wasn't as bad as everyone made it out to be.

Re:Disaster

[torndorff]

I do think that without MY old Freon A/C and frig I would have died in the heat wave of `97 ;)

Or maybe I need to go outside.

Re:Disaster

[Anonymous Coward]

Old people tend to die when it gets really hot.

Not to mention people in hospitals that make be weak (from whatever) and suffer or die from the heat.

A/C saves lives.

Re:Disaster

[CTachyon]

Substances such as R12 and R134 do not have the detremental effect.

Actually, R12 is even worse. Both R-12 (CCl2F2) and R-22 (CHClF2) contain chlorine, and the reason chlorine catalyzes the destruction of ozone but fluorine does not is that fluorine doesn't readily bond with large numbers of oxygen radicals but chlorine forms ClO4 without so much as yawning.

If it did Quicken and a handful of other apps ...

[BitMan]

Then Microsoft would have a seller! I've written on this before.

I don't know why Microsoft doesn't take advantage of its PC dependence and use that to keep them on the Windows platform. I mean, if you've got the capabilities in the unit, why not exploit them as much as you can? Especially in a set top unit that would be easier to maintain than a PC, but will do everything that 50% of what homes need?

Sure, there are issues with the screen display, but when it comes to balancing your checkbook, checking your on-line porforlio, writing simple letters, and a few other details that a good 50% of homes use, it's sufficient. Most of us /.'ers will still have a PC, but most home users aren't as savvy. A set-top box would be much better, since the PC is far too much more them. They just want gaming, TV recording, Internet browsing, checkbook balancing, investment tracking and writing letters -- nothing more. Heck, if it ran Quicken, I'd probably buy it (a 100% Linux user, both at work and home, for the last 4 years!).

I don't know why I'm the only one that seems to see this? I also don't know why Nokia or some other company in the TV Linux Alliance hasn't been able to team up with AT&T, the regional Bells, etc... to offer such a Linux-based "set-top box" for their cable (or, limitedly, DSL) subscribers yet. I've heard rumors, but nothing solid yet. If Microsoft wants to "take over," it should make a move on this. But, instead, it looks like they'll keep doing the "minimum required" combined with "dumping" and losing to other vendors again and again and again at a huge loss. And they probably won't wake up until someone else has a 50% marketshare with one of these devices either.

Re:Monotony Report 20020701

[perl_god]

Thank you for helping me set goals for myself!

Most Prolific (all scores, logged in): //who posted the most comments perl_god (22 posts 10.1382488479263%). //comment here Most Noise (-1, logged in): //who posted the most comments that are at -1 perl_god (22 posts 10.1382488479263%). //lameness sucks

a bad workman...

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn the English language at times...

A bad workman blames his tools.

Re:a bad workman...

[MyHair]

>>Damn the English language at times...

>A bad workman blames his tools.

Actually I think it's the Slashdot rush that's to blame: "I've got to get this typed and posted quickly before someone else says the same thing and I get modded down for being redundant!" So people (or at least I) make stupid grammar and spelling mistakes or just word ideas poorly.

Oh, okay, maybe it's our egos that are to blame.

Or blame Sue. After all, she made the cosutmes.

Re:a bad workman...

[Buck2]

Yeah, Sue! That beeyatch!

Marketing sabotage?

[markmoss]

I've long suspected that MS marketing had been infiltrated by Linux and Mac fanatics. That it still sells just proves how damned little these fanatics understand about users and corporate purchasing decisions...

OTOH, maybe MS has a large secret slushfund to hire people to post utterly over-the-top pro-Linux messages and make the real Linuxers look like idiots. And to write Linux how-to's that take you through a dozen typed commands when most distros have a simple GUI program to do the same thing in 3 mouse clicks.

One of the rejected slogans . . .

[div_2n]

"Freon, not to be confused with moron, gives Bill Gates a hard-on and helps half-witted geeks get their groove on!"

Re:One of the rejected slogans . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Hm. Well. No, decidedly unfunny.

blatant reporting bias

[ProfKyne]

The Xbox console isn't profitable for the Redmond, Wash., company and its costs are believed to be higher than Sony's, partly because of the hard drive and a version of its powerful Windows operating system included with each machine.

Oh yes -- it is very unprofitable to ship a powerful version of the Windows operating system. A big investment on Microsoft's part. That set them back quite a bit I'll reckon. (What??)

While "the Xbox is a full-feature BMW, the PS2 is a Toyota,"

Yeah, maybe. The Xbox is a 318ti, and the PS2 is a Toyota Supra.

Sorry, MSNBC, but that is ridiculous. And I realize the quote came from an executive at InfoGrames -- of course an executive at a company with an interest in porting its PC titles to the console market is interested in the Xbox.

Re:blatant reporting bias

[fizzychicken]

Although I agree that MSNBC is totally biased, I've got to correct you about your estimation of the PS2 vs XBox.

I'm a console programmer, and I've worked on both the PS2 and the XBox. The libraries included with the XBox are a load better than the ones included with the PS2. As is the hardware. XBox kicks PS2 on everything but fill-rate.

The dev-kit is also cheaper, and comes with a full suite of dev tools - something the PS2 dev-kit doesn't do. As much as MS get's deserved grief here on /. it's dangerous to ignore the facts.

Re:blatant reporting bias

[Winterblink]

MSNBC's reporter bias is completely offset by /. comment bias. It all ends up even in the end. :)

Re:blatant reporting bias

[Phil Wilkins]

> XBox kicks PS2 on everything but fill-rate...

...user base, manufacturing costs, spatial efficiency, game library, size of developer community.

As another console programmer, I'd agree that the PS2 tools are still playing catch-up with the x-box tools. However, since the market for PS2 games is like 10 times the size of that for the x-box, the development costs for a PS2 title could be up to 10 times that of an x-box title and it'd still be more profitable in terms of return on investment. (NB this is an incredibly crude analysis, but the fundamentals are important).

Oh, and the x-box is in no way a beemer (the 'cube is the beemer in this metaphor), much more like a cadillac. Big, expensive, over-specced, looks much more impressive than it actually is.

Re:Stable (as in...)

[Anonymous Coward]

way morer !

Monopole !

I love it

LOL

DISCLAIMER

[Fuzzums]

we - M$ - claim all the right to install updates on your television. Also we can, shall and will block programs we don't like.

furthermore, if your dvd-player, vhs or gameconsole is not 100% M$ compatible we have the right to block the signal. Purely to protect the tv's hardware ofcourse. This has nothing to do with wanting to own your room your house (or the world for that matter) or something.

WebTV rebates?

[randomErr]

I wonder if WebTV users will get a $200 rebate to upgrade to the new Freon system, with a 3 year subscription to MSN?

Mod that up

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for saving me making the same post about Freon(tm). Freon(tm) was also a great solvent. Now, let the bidding wars for the Freon(tm) brand name begin!

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[markmoss]

The process that happens inside a refrigeration system is based on physics. It does not matter which gas.

It definitely does matter. Freon isn't just a gas in a refrigerator; it liquefies when it is compressed and gives up heat to the outside air, then evaporates _quickly_ when the pressure is released in the cooling coils. This takes the right variation of the boiling point with pressure. To get just the right physical characteristics in Freon, they tried substituting various numbers of flourine and chlorine atoms for hydrogen atoms in hydrocarbons. And as a bonus, it turns out that Freon is non-poisonous, non-corrosive, and coexists quite well with compressor lubricants.

Nothing else works quite as well. Water and alcohol have too high boiling points (and might be bad for the pipes and bearings too). CO2 requires a quite high pressure to liquefy. Ammonia is as toxic as cyanide. R134a (similar to Freon but with only carbon, hydrogen, and flourine atoms) is not quite as good at lubricating or at refrigerating.

By the way, refrigeration was responsible for only a tiny percentage of the chloroflourocarbons released into the environment. Refrigerators that leak coolant are defective! Spray cans were another tiny percentage. Most of the release was industrial cleaning systems - Freon and similar substances being great solvents that dry quickly, and pose no danger to the workers as long as there's enough ventilation to keep oxygen in the room. Generally these systems would try to recycle the Freon, but it kept leaking out around both ends of the conveyor belt.

Is it upgrade-able?

[randomErr]

Someone mentioned earlier about running out of disc space. Will we be able to plug in a USB hard drive to add a few hours of record time?

It would be cool to offer a way to carry your movies(and games) to friend's house and play them.

FYI: Xbox uses a modified USB port for all external devices. Thus a USB device could be used as a travel device.

Newsflash!

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans are all cunts

Re:Newsflash!

[Cpt_Kirks]

Well, you are about 51% right...

Sounds like DaveDina

[Cpyder]

Game console, PVR, ... sounds like Digital Audio & Video Entertainment and Digital Interactive Networked Amusement to me... or in short DAVEDINA, a project doing all of this under Linux.. Check it out, it's cool, it's almost apt-gettable and it's free (beer/speech)!

Freon disaster?!!

[mikethegeek]

"I must question their naming question however, we all know what a disaster the actual chemical Freon was. Here's to hoping, Cheers!""

If the submitter had cared to investigate the facts, not the "enviro-nut" rhetoric behind Freon, he'd know that the only "disaster" was that the PATENT on R12 Freon was about to expire. Hence, Freon was to enter the PUBLIC DOMAIN. The company with the R12 patent "happened" to have a newly patented "Freon substitute" that they marketed as "environmentally friendly".

Re:Freon disaster?!!

[karmawarrior]

The patents concerning Freon ran out in the late sixties. It wasn't until 5-10 years later that concerns about Freon became widespread, and 20 years later until the shit really hit the fan and countries all over the world banned it.

DuPont might have wanted to do what you're suggesting. But if it was a giant conspiracy by them, they certainly cocked it up. 20 years for a marketing strategy like that certainly sucks lemons.

Freon was banned after it was convincingly proven that it did perform the chemical reactions claimed by those concerned by it, and that the ozone layer was massively depleted.

At least

[HawkingMattress]

Everyone will soon be able to see those scrambled channels on TV without the need of an exotic pc configuration.

Thanx bill !

Re:Stable (as in...)

[pen]

Monopoly is not necessarily a bad thing.

X-Box and Freon will run the same games!

[Juju]

The idea is just to add a bigger hard disk and a TV tuner to add some Tivo functionalities to the X-Box.
I doubt it they will make a $500 console and expect people to make games only for that console. This is never going to work!!!

Re:Stable (as in...)

[pen]

(As long as it is created by a free market, that is, and not by artificial means such as legislation or mafia connections. Oh wait.. same thing ;)

Is this the "plan of the week"

[prisoner]

club or what? I remember reading an interview with Gates a long time ago where he related in reasonable detail the early days of MS. His viewpoint then was that they were lucky to have survived as they were just thrashing about. The more time goes on, the more I think that this is even more true today. They *do* have a bazillion dollars in the bank nowadays but they seem to have adopted the "trial ballon" approach to everything and are still thrashing. I do give them a lot of credit though, once they latch onto something (like the internet) you can forget about it. It only took a couple of months and they where fighting it out with every other company on the planet to see who could get more "internet" into their products.

The best part...

[shepd]

Is that freon and CFCs are too heavy to reach the ozone in any form unless your favourite airliner has a leaky air conditioner.

I can probably dredge up some support for the above, if you care to see it (its a little hard, though, as the whole CFC scare happened before the internet's prime time).

Re:The best part...

[haggar]

You are wrong. Freon and most other CFCs do reach the Ionosphere, where they are broken down into chlorine and fluorites (fluor can's stay in pure state, it's too reactive). It's these that work on destroying the O3 molecules, and causing, as a consequence, an alarming increase in melanomas (skin cancer, to oversimplify it).

It's a very real threat, ask the people down under.

Re:The best part...

[Anonymous Coward]

And you're proof would be where? No one has ever shown any evidence that is true. Are you claiming to have done so?z

Compatibility advantage... PS2???

[Andy Dodd]

Clearly "standard components" are not needed for backwards compatibility if you do things right.

PS2 - Need I say more?

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[Randatola]

It's also interesting to note that, after it was essentially banned in the U.S., Freon was one of the most smuggled substances into the country.

Because, as you noted, the replacement refrigerants were so inadequate in existing refrigeration systems, there was still a great demand for Freon and there existed (I'm sure there still does, to some extent) a black market for Freon. Freon was the second most smuggled substance into the US from Mexico, because the margins on Freon were nearly as good as those for narcotics.

It'll crash all the time...

[Petronius]

no need to worry about M$.

Not totally...

[Andy Dodd]

Needless to say, once you've paid the price of a retrofit, it's not much more to fix the condenser capacity issue.

Solution 1: Get a new condenser from a newer car. Best if done at the same time as the retrofit. They run $150-200.

Solution 2: The cheap one, and one I plan on implementing soon. (My A/C is borderline - It cools, but it sometimes takes a while, as opposed to my heat which comes up within a minute or two) Solution 2 is to install an auxiliary fan in front of the condenser that is hooked to the A/C clutch circuit. This will provide additional cooling capacity. Some cars need it more than others - I know of a guy with a Toyota minivan - It wouldn't cool down at all until it was moving 50+ until the owner installed a fan. My Dodge Spirit is borderline, but cools whether standing or moving - Because the main radiator fan is already set to turn on full-time whenever the A/C is turned on. (As opposed to only under certain speed/temp conditions)

quality of this discussion

[rnd()]

There have been times in the past when I have wondered if anyone at Microsoft (Gates perhaps) reads Slashdot. I can honestly say that this discussion is not of a high enough quality that anyone at Microsoft would gain anything from it. This might just be a trend at /. as of late, but the quality of discussion and level of critical thought sinks through the floor whenever a story about Microsoft is posted. Oddly, there are typically one or two Microsoft stories posted to /. every day. Why can't the /. community get the chip off its collective shoulder and remember the fascination that got us interested in computers/technology in the first place. What a bunch of cynical bozos.

Re:quality of this discussion

[Winterblink]

That's a great point. I barely ever read anything posted on this site that has anything to do with Microsoft products or news. The /. articles themselves are 95% biased opinion 5% useful information (usually only consisting of the URL to the site where you can get the real news). And the responses from readers are unbelievably obtuse. It's good to know I'm not the ONLY person here with that view too. :) I've read /. for years now and have noticed its rapid decline of reader comments and article bias. This sucks really, since /. could be the ultimate source for tech news and discussion, and no matter hat anyone says it ISN'T right now because of these ridiculous trends in its readership. Just my 2c.

Re:quality of this discussion

[gerardrj]

...remember the fascination that got us interested in computers/technology in the first place.

You insinuate that Microsoft was that 'fascination'. I must state that in my case that is most certainly not the way it happened. Granted, I'm an oddball, but I first got hooked on mainframes. My dad worked on IBM mainframes and would take me to work from time to time.

From there, I went to Tandy's CoCo, TI's 99/4a and the Commodore 64. After that: Unix worstations and Macs. I've owned an IBM PC or clone from time to time, just to tinker with, but I can't recall that Windows or any Wintel system caused any facination or modivation in me. Microsoft has in fact almost continually obfisticated or restricted everything that facinates me most about computers and in particular programming.

Re:quality of this discussion

[rnd()]

You insinuate that Microsoft was that 'fascination'.

I didn't mean to make that insinuation at all. My first computer was a TI 99/4a, followed a few years later by an Apple //c. It was still a few years after that before I got my first PC clone (actually, it was an original IBM XT).

I don't understand why so many /. readers spend so much energy hating Microsoft. If they spent the equivalent energy writing great OSS code, Microsoft wouldn't stay in business long.

My point is that technology can be cool no matter who wrote it or who sells it (or gives it away). I think it will be exciting to have one more device in the TiVO space, and it will be interesting to see if Microsoft's device lets you skip commercials.

Re:quality of this discussion

[gerardrj]

I agree with that. The problem is that so many people in the world prefer to direct their energy toward the path of least resistance.

In this case, the path of least resistance is complaining/whining ahout what they consider to be the evil empire. The constructive route of providing alternatives to that empire are considered too difficult and so they just whine.

It's a shame really, because you can learn enough C or C++ in a week or two to get started in programming; at least in modifying existing code or expanding it. While coding does require skill and thought, one could always just write documentation.

But then again, if the population would actually apply itself, instead of always being a 'victim', we wouldn't need the government. People like the government: it does things for them. Then the people can just watch TV and complain (about the government).

Re:quality of this discussion

[Anonymous Coward]

contribute, or shut the fuck up

Re:quality of this discussion

[buck_wild]

What I hate is the whole 'If I bag on MS, maybe all these people will respect me' drivel. It's getting really really old.

Change of focus again ?

[fizzychicken]

I remember attending my first XBox Developers Conference a couple of years ago (I'm an XBox programmer), and hearing from the big cheese at the time that one of the driving forces behind the XBox was the desire to not make it a jack of all trades. 'This isn't going to be a toaster-teapot' or some-such.

I can't help thinking that MS are changing tack with this after the none-too-promising sales of XBox of late. I think they have realised that even though XBox has better hardware than both PS2 and GC, people don't think the XBox is sexy enough to lay over their dough. Sony and Nintendo make sexy, fashionable hardware that people love to own. Most peoples only interaction with Microsoft is when they are forced to fight with Windows whenever they use a PC. Microsoft just ain't sexy, that's the problem they are facing.

But who knows, maybe they will have better luck fighting against TiVO and ReplayTV (if they haven't been sued out of business yet). Maybe they can smuggle XBox in under the wire, in the world of set top boxes where functionality could be perceived as more important than 'fashion accessory'.

Let's just hope they don't make the next one a big plastic brick with badly designed joypads. It's a shame the XBox isn't doing too well (especially in Europe and Japan), it's a great bit of kit; it's just got a chronic image problem. I always thought it was a bad idea to plaster 'Microsoft' all over it.

Re:Change of focus again ?

[Phil Wilkins]

I put this change of focus down to a renewed power grab from the WebTV / UltimateTV group.

"But Gates left a glimmer of hope for the WebTV team. [...] This fateful suggestion turned into a new form of the old Microsoft strategy tax, slowing down the Xbox again." here

Open Source replacement for Freon

[Skreech]

R-134a

Freon, huh?

[carlos_benj]

This explains a lot. Now we know what runs in their veins.

UKOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this make BillG the Undisputed King of the Ozone Destroyers?

Wont work, here's why.

[Viewsonic]

Because most of the compliances will need to be upgraded. The XBox2 is already announced, and most likely an XBox3 soon after. The console portion of this Freon box will need to be continually updated. Likewise for the DVD capabilities. The XBox already has major issues with quite a few movies (Lists are out there, do a search.), and so far I have yet to see anyone use the XBox, or even PS2 for that matter as their primary DVD player (Kudos to Nintendo for skipping this hype.). Also, same thing with PVRs, they will need to be upgraded, larger drives, newer software, and this is a monthly fee. So what happens if just one of the 3 components breaks? (I've had a bad PS1 and a bad Tivo in my lifetime, friends have had DVD Players die on them also.) Thats 3 times the failure rate of a normal device you can just rebuy two years down the road. With the new Freon you'll be out most likely $500 instead of $100 or $200 if they were seperate.. Looking at Microsofts track record for defects with the XBox, I think even if the Freon DID look cool, specwise, with all the best software for PVR'n, no one would buy it simply because they didn't want a hunk of plastic that didn't work after 2 years. Many companies have tried making an all-in-one set top box, and they literally went under soon after. This is most likely the beginning of the end for Microsoft in the home entertainment dept.

Re:Wont work, here's why.

[Mulletproof]

"...Freon box will need to be continually updated."

I wouldn't think this is a huge obstacle. Really. If the thing has a hard drive then updating is a issue unless it were something major. Um, I use my XBox (cue flaming) as my primary (read: only) DVD player and i have to ask why is it hype? Kind of a logical step if you ask me. Your console plays DVD games, why not movies in the same format. Damn useful if you ask me. Which you didn't. But if you did...

"So what happens if just one of the 3 components breaks?"

First, what 3 components are you talking about? The DVD, HD and..? Motherboard? But even without knowing what those components are, the answer is simple- Fix/buy a new one or do without. The more capabilities a unit has, the easier it is to stop up the plumbing, naturally. It goes with the territory of any technology and it's something you have to live with. Other technologies have this inherent problem yet they thrive. Go figure.

"Microsofts track record for defects with the XBox"

Huh. Source please. Link it. The only ones I know of was a small batch of the consoles were scratching disks in Japan and I had my friend mention one overheating as a display model, but that's all I've heard, and since I own one, I like to think I listen for that sort of news. And as much as I love the PS1 I have to mention that it had it's share of issues depite it's popularity, namely the laser assembly burning out or jamming prematurally (discounting hot-swapping of import CDs). I know /. is an MS haters club, but come on...

"because they didn't want a hunk of plastic that didn't work after 2 years"

If it's anything close to an Xbox, the damn thing is as close to a computer as it'll get. And unlike a computer, it doesn't nessisarily need to be at the cutting edge of technology. I don't see us moving away from DVDs anytime soon. Will TV be changing that rapidly to make this obsolete in 2 years? What, exactly, will make this hardware obsolete? I agree that ll technology has a finite shelf life, but PVR? As long as you can update the software, technology like this will have a long lifespan.

Maybe it won't work, but your "why" needs a few less holes.

Re:Wont work, here's why.

[buck_wild]

Thanks for being so insiteful. It's rare to have people that think so objectively about MS around here...and it's welcome, in my opinion.

I often feel as though I'm surrounded by a bunch of picketing, rallying, tree-hugger types.

Re: Xbox failure outside US

[Mongoose]

Besides having ~5 games that would sell in the market of Japan:

1. They released machines that damaged several users game and dvd discs in Japan at launch

3. They took about a month or two to admit it was broken

4. They replace xboxes

5. They will never replace damaged media

I don't care if you're selling bread or negative io n hairdryers -- you must have consumer support on level with your service. Even the WonderSwan is kicking Xbox in the balls in sells. It's like Y2800 or something! ( ~Y122 : 1 USD )

Japan the same nation that won't put Snow Brand Milk/Foods out of bussiness for countless near yearly food posionings of school children won't even take that. (Humor) =)

Freon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are they referring to the memory leaks, or the fact that it's already obsolete?

Um, what about patents?

[ryanvm]

I'm not quite sure how MS plan's on evading the patent issue. Unfortunately for Microsoft, the PVR industry is laden with patents like a minefield. Both TiVo and ReplayTV hold a number of them on PVR technology. Unless these companies plan on surviving on license fees like a tick on Microsoft's neck, it seems to me like Microsoft is going to have quite a wait (about 15 years) before it can get into the PVR biz.

Re:Um, what about patents?

[marick]

Yeah, well, they did buy WebTV long ago (rumor has it they bought it so they could kill WebTV's Java plans), and they released their own UltimateTV a couple of years ago. Both of these were PVRs...

Re:Um, what about patents?

[mcjulio]

Where have you been? Microsoft shipped and killed UltimateTV awhile ago, which is where the PVR tech for Freon is coming from. Patents aren't even an issue here.

Re:Um, what about patents?

[ryanvm]

Uh, did you even read my links? Specifically this one. UltimateTV has been shuffled off into the darkness since TiVo received its patents. So - where have you been?

Re:Um, what about patents?

[tillemetry]

...And here I thought the reference was to the patent on the word "Freon".

(Dow Chemical and all...)

I'd laugh my ass off if Dow sued...

Re:Possible MS Project Names - bad chemicals

[ReelOddeeo]

Introducing Microsoft Agent Orange!

This remote agent is downloaded into your computer overnight by Microsoft. It works behind the scenes in your computer to help keep it secure. (against you, the enemy) While you're using your computer, Agent Orange is hard at work maintaining the integrity and security of your system.

Microsoft Agent Orange can also notify you of special offers that you might be interested in. Such as how to increase the length of your... oh wait.

Re:Stable (as in...)

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as I get to be the little car, sure, I agree with you.

evil dupont

[gripdamage]

Not that I want you all to think I'm a big pothead or something; I always hear potheads saying crap like this, but... I heard it was also DuPont who led the charge to get marijuana listed as a controlled substance, supposedly because their artificial carpet fibers were hopelessly inferior to hemp. Anyone know if this is fact?

Re:evil dupont

[NeuroChrist]

according to Jello Biafra on, I belive, "Smoke more Pot" from I Blow Minds for a Living, it was due to a new paper processing system that used more of DuPonts chemicals than hemp would. Like twice as much. of course I have not researched this on my own, but I trust Jello. There is always room for more Jello.

Has anyone considered that this is vaporware

[frode]

I saw an article not long ago that Sony was able to cut the cost of PS2 much earlier than anyone including Microsoft expected. This lead to Microsoft cutting the price of the Xbox and losing even more money per unit that before while Sony was still making a per unit profit or at least breaking even while gaining more and more market share.

Now consider Microsoft, a place where non-authorized leaks rarely make it into the press
and even when they do die soon for lack of any comment. Also look at who is re-running the WSJ article, MSNBC.com.

Now If I were Microsoft I might float a story of how great our next product will be and that it is right around the corner. Hopefully all the kiddies and they're SUV driving parents will keep their cash in their pockets and not by any system waiting for MS revolutionary system.

Microsoft's best stratagey is to keep as many consumers out of the market until it has a console that it makes some money on or at least loses less and is more competitive with Sony's console.

-FRODE

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[afidel]

Also, freon and its sister chemicals only accounted for a very small percentage of the free chlorine radicals in the upper atmosphere. In fact one volcanic eruption in south america in the early 90's spewed about 10 times as much chlorine into the upper atmosphere as all the industrial chemicals user in human history! Now because of its stable configuration freon has a disproportionate effect, but it is still estimated by some scientists that volcanic activity has had 2 orders of magnitude more impact on the ozone layer than human activity during the period since industrial revolution.

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[markmoss]

It's also interesting to note that, after it was essentially banned in the U.S., Freon was one of the most smuggled substances into the country.

I don't know about that, but back in 1995 we paid $5,000 for one barrel of freon to run a solvent cleaner for electronic circuit boards until the FDA finally approved the water-wash process. What's funny is that this plant had never had a solvent cleaner in the 11 years it was running before we picked up that damned medical equipment contract...

Word Replaced

[SEWilco]

Of course Word will be replaced by something much cooler by then. It will look really pretty, but none of your old Word documents will be valid under it. Thus you are protected from all the things which you thought were true but turned out to not be.

Word.

Excellent...

[DooBall]

Microsoft is one step closer! (click sig link)

Begrudging congrats...

[Anonymous Coward]

It works on Mozilla.

McCarthy, you can't code for shit!

Let me get this straight...

[Guppy06]

Microsoft is slowly but surely losing the current console war. They're still behind their major competitor (Sony) and, while they may be ahead of or behind Nintendo, they don't have Nintendo's ability to make money no matter what place they're in (observe N64). And now they want to make sure to pour cement into Xbox's grave by bringing out a new console already? This is up there with Sega's 32X/Saturn fiasco.

Somebody needs to inform Microsoft that this is not the PC industry. They may or may not be able to psych out Sony a bit, but Yamauchi is too much of a miserable old curmudgeon to do anything but laugh at Microsoft for this one.

Oh, and let's not forget that the "set top box" concept has yet to pan out (or even be fully realized) for it to be a profitable idea for Sony or Microsoft (ie. people aren't turning away from the GameCube simply because it doesn't play DVDs).

About the only effect I've heard of that this concept has had in the industry is that launch titles got burned as people bought the PlayStation 2 but no games (people got it as a new DVD player). From that experience alone Microsoft may drive away possible game writers as they try to put more and more functionality in to Xbox2.

I think its appropriate.

[Gannoc]

Once you have Freon, it costs a lot of money to dispose of it.

Re:I think its appropriate.

[Chorizo911]

Doesn't cost anything to flush it down the toilet... Really that hole in the bathroom is good for more then just piss and poop! Motor oil, antifreeze, gasoline, acetone, old paint if its liquid it will flush...

I swear

[Seekerofknowledge]

This is definitely a sign of why games seem to be losing their appeal lately.

Though Microsoft hoped the introduction of a hard disk and other features would inspire developers to write more exciting games than for the PlayStation 2

Why do games have to be exciting? Excitation is not the only valuable quality of a video game! A game needs to be unique and wonderful and truly inspiring! Nobody needs excitement 24/7, nor does every video game have to be about excitement. Continuing to produce games with this mentality will only result in the withering of the game industry into mind-numbing all-fire and bullets and explosions-all-the-time games that nobody wants to play. A constant flow of over-the-top games will only reduce gamers' desire for such, as even the World's Greatest Rollercoaster can get boring after a while.

The single greatest reason the Xbox and it's successors will fail.

geez.
(whew - thanks for the rant. :) )

So, Bill Gates spent a week...

[freeBill]

...playing videogames on non-MS consoles. I wish I could justify that as a "think week." He should have spent it contemplating the following sequence of events:

1. Enron
2. sombody else
3. WorldCom
4. Xerox

Don't Play by House Rules

[reallocate]

Rather than bemoan the Microsoft monolith, why not play to the strength of open source, i.e., don't play by the house rules established by the open source priesthood. Draw in real consumers (stop calling them "lusers");give up the notion that open source has to be bounded and shaped by Linux, the BSD's, etc., and expand the notion to all kinds of platforms; get a clue about non-geek users and build some imaginative tools for them to use; don't be afraid to start selling shrink-wrapped products, get sales people on the street pushing the stuff.

Truth is, the open source/free software/pick your-label-movement is rooted in a Unix developers ethos. It champions worthy and useful high-minded notions that are relevant only to someone who shares that mind set. Consumers are people who buy things. Give them something they wqnt to buy.

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[matastas]

That anecdote was most likely bullshit. Inhaling Freon is a tremendously bad idea: Freon is heavier than air, and will displace all of the oxygen in your lungs. You'll suffocate pretty fast. Unless the du Pont guy basically hot-boxed the Freon, and was extremely careful, the incident was probably fabricated.

There was an Emergency 911 where some dumbass HVAC tech filled his air mattress with Freon. His kid caught a lungfull, nearly died.

And at any rate, it makes a stupid codename. The marketing drones fell asleep at the wheel.

SHUTUP PINKO FAG

[Anonymous Coward]

well.....

[khold]

At least it isn't called Prion, which would be the cause of mad cow disease, instead of Freon! Just think of the connotations..... The main software for it could be full of holes, just like a mad cow's brain.

Treason!!!

[Mulletproof]

What? And shed that elitist image by catering to a large segment of the sales population? You must be joking?! Make Linux popular with the masses!?!? And actually compete with MS?! You, my man, are insane.

Re:Treason!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

And you, my man, are funny as hell!

uh... _code_ names?

[H0NGK0NGPH00EY]

right... so anyway, since when do internal codenames have to be original, having anything to do with the product, or even clever? Give it a rest, people...

Alternative refrigerant gases

[Nick Driver]

There exists another, simple cheap and efficient alternative refrigerant: a blend of propane and isobutane. Yep, common hydrocarbons. They refrigerate well in the same pressure ranges as R12, blend well with lubricating oils, and biodegrade easily since they are simple hydrocarbons. The reason why they are not used is that they are flammable, but the laws prohibiting their use as refrigerants are not well-based on reason... they are based on emotion. Two or three pounds of butane/propane pressurized in a car's air conditioning system is not that great of a fire or explosion hazard. Compared to the gasoline on board a car, the relatively small amount of refrigerant would be negligeable. One gallon of gasoline weighs about 6 pounds and the typical car has a minimum of a 10 gallon tank. Even in a collision, the refrigerant would spray out into the atmosphere and dissipate in a few seconds, especially if the system was fitted with a quick release emergency dump valve. When a gasoline tank ruptures, you then have a big pool of gasoline that sits around, surrounding the wreckage. Gasoline is a much greater threat. We've all seen plenty of Hollywood movies... the huge orange fireballs that go in all the special effects explosions, those are done with gasoline. Propane/butane explosions are much more benign and take huge quantities in giant tanks to get anywhere near as spectacular as gasoline.

Re:Alternative refrigerant gases

[Anonymous Coward]

In my job, I've seen a lot of auto accidents. I've seen many, many cars that leaked gas, but never seen a single fire. The secret is that gas is very difficult to light. If the vapor in the air has too low or too high of a concentration (between 3% and 5%, if I remember correctly), then it simply won't burn. Think about how many dozens of accidents you've seen, and how many of them resulted in a fire? I've only seen the orange fireballs on TV. The freon-replacement you're talking about is much easier to light. Think about butane, which you probably have experience with. It is used in lighters, because it is relatively easy to light in many different conditions.z

Hang on a moment....

[slayer99]

Hasn't someone already used the prouct name Freon before?

walk before running.

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't they fix windows first.

Dumb Terminals in the Living Room

[Vegan Pagan]

The only way I can see that content creator-approved "multimedia convergence" and content on demand in the living room will happen is through dumb terminals on broadband.

The MPAA and RIAA, and eventually ISDA, will only feel safe when their content/software resides nowhere in the world but on a few dozen hard drives in their offices. Only dumb terminals can let them to do that and still provide all the conveniences and flexibility comparable to the WWW. And since they'll demand maximum DRM, they'll thus demand minimum client-side caching, which means each client will need lots of bandwith and very low latency.

As long as Microsoft is talking about giving consumers hard drives, they won't have the content provider's cooperation.

BRAVO! Well said!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. The socialist tree-hugger BS commentary that is tagged onto (most) Slashdot articles is getting old, fast.

Microsoft and the media conglomerates

[Infonaut]

This is interesting. The closer they get to some form of gaming/TV convergence, the more Microsoft will have to deal with the potential conflicts of interest between their hardware and software efforts.

Microsoft has always come down heavily in favor of aggressively protecting copyrighted material. They support the media giants in their efforts to make copy-proof one-time use media. They are talking about integrating code checking (intellectual property validation by another name) into future OS releases.

They've always taken this stance because first and foremost, they're a software company. But now they're moving into hardware. Companies like Dell and Apple, which have been up in arms about the media conglomerates' strong-arm tactics, have a vested interest in standing up for fair-use rights as computers become more tightly integrated with media creation and playback.

So far Microsoft has skirted the issue with ReplayTV, but if they try to take TV integration to the next level, they'll run smack-dab into the media giants.

Of course, based on their history, MS is likely to make deals with the media giants that restrict fair use by creating micropayment schemes or some other method of tracking and billing users for the wonderful things they're doing with the TV/game box.

This would alienate users in droves, especially when there are plenty of other competitors out there who aren't primarily software companies. Of course, MS could just wait for the hardware companies to do all the hard work of fighting the intellectual property battles with the media industry. Then they could step in after the dust clears, and reap the benefits without exposing themselves.

Whatever happens, Microsoft is literally getting so big and diversified that some of its products are bound to compete with each other in significant ways. I wonder, can Bill, as clever as he is, continue to advance Microsoft on all fronts without at some point having to scale back his ambitions?

Re:Microsoft and the media conglomerates

[mcjulio]

This isn't a conflict, it's a business opportunity. By playing both sides of the court, Microsoft provides features that customers will like and simultaneously forces media providers to get on board for its content control schemes if they don't want to see their revenues fade. So Media Player plays MP3s without complaint and also supports the locked up Windows Media Format, which is slowly gaining traction as an alternate file format on new CDs, in addition to the PCM data.

Re: The Environment

[ackthpt]

If freon contains CFCs and eats up the ozone layer, what will MS Freon do?

Freeze competition out of your living room, you had to ask?

BTW, when MS blows it again, you can't dump your electronic trash in China, so might as well pack it up and send it to Redmond, let the Beast's home state deal with it.

Microsoft already makes a PVR

[Animats]

It's called Ultimate TV, and it's only offered for one of the direct-broadcast satellite services. They haven't tried to market it more broadly. Unclear why.

Re:Microsoft already makes a PVR

[Phil Wilkins]

...because no-one really wants to get into bed with Microsoft? They do have a terrible habit of eating their partners alive.

Oh yes, and because they were incredibly late with a recent set-top box contract. There was quite a bit of coverage on this on the Register IIRC.

Freon changed civilization for the better

[benzapp]

Despite the alleged ozone depleting effects of Freon, this chemical revolutionized much of the world. To call it anything less than revolutionary is not being wholly factual.

From Churchill's newly airconditioned bunker during WWII, to the entire southeastern US, virtually unihabitable before airconditioning, many parts of the world previously inhospitable to human life were made welcoming.

Think of the whole new culture of beach bums, and the gigantic migration to warmer climates... None of this would have been possible without freon. Had any of us lived 60 years ago, the mere thought of going to Florida would seem like torture.

This reminds me of...

[Viceice]

That Batman movie where the Joker has this console in everyones home and it grabs everybodys bank numbers right out of their heads...

come to think about it, that Microsoft's m/o isn't it?

*Shudder*

Console makers always overpromise.

[Vegan Pagan]

MS is just following the console tradition of talking about three consoles for every one they actually bring to market.

When Nintendo made the NES, they talked about making it a "Trojan Horse" that would bring content on demand and online shopping, including stock trading, to the living room. They also talked about several SNES CD-ROM drives and a N64 disk drive. And they talked about Game Boy Advance six years before they brought it to market.

Sony talked about PlayStation 2, 3 and 4 back in 1995.

Atari talked about their 16-bit console "Panther" in 1991, and Matsushita talked about the 3DO "M2" in 1996. They marketed neither.

Sega did actually bring out every console they promised, but only the Genesis / Mega Drive was profitable. They tried to support 11 others that lost money, including unheard-of combinations like Genesis + Sega CD + 32X.

Engineering Code of Ethics

[Coward Anonymous]

Maybe it is about time Microsoft engineers read the Software Engineering Code of Ethics. Specifically, their duty to the public at large.

A PC?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft will evolve X-Box to the point where it becomes...

A Personal Computer.

Re:Stable (as in...)

[MyHair]

Monopoly is not necessarily a bad thing.

As long as we don't play with "fines to the middle, free parking gets the cash" rules. That was too cool when I was 8, but it sucks now that I'm 32. But $400 for landing on Go is okay.

And if AC gets the car, then I want the dog.

(Oops, i just got trolled and posted a bad, stupid, redundant joke. Oh well, this is my second day being a registered Slashdot user.)

I like this line:

[Anonymous Coward]

"The Xbox console isn't profitable for the Redmond, Wash., company and its costs are believed to be higher than Sony's, partly because of the hard drive and a version of its powerful Windows operating system included with each machine."

Since when is Windows a powerful operating system? More companies should use linux in their devices if they want power.

5 years

[yerricde]

Console lifecycles are something like 3 years

Closer to five.

Not so keen on the Gamecube myself, it's a bit too kiddy for my tastes

Resident Evil Special Edition kiddy? Hardly.

Re:5 years

[kpetruse]

Luigi's Mansion? Pikmin? Super Monkey Ball? Sonic Adventure 2?

Now I'm sure they are all great games, but I got a bit tired of platform games years back. A couple of more mature titles don't swing it for me. Got a beef with that?

maybe freon != R-12

[djtack]

"freon" is the old english word for "friend", and is also the root of the modern english "freedom".

Anyone notice the Xbox ads

[ManInBlackinNJ]

Where they show the Xbox buyer/user(Skateboarder not paying attention to landing the 50/50 Grind.) taking it up the a$$. Is this a case of foreshadowing?

Apt name

[atcurtis]

It might be cool but its got security flaws as big as the ozone hole.

MS tour

[Anonymous Coward]

Could this have anything to do with a recent tour to MS and getting tagged when I said I was with slashdot. For some unknown reason when I access linux software now, I get a zapped. Considence or myth.

1984 Redux

[Anonymous Coward]

Combine this story with Palladium.

Picture an "enhanced" X-box (or that "Tablet Computer" Bill keeps harping about). Add a hardware/software remote-management "feature" with Redmond at the controls. Toss in one of those little "spycams" from the ubiquitous pop-up ads with an ultra-wide-angle lens, and a wall bracket. Oh, and leave out any means of turning the thing off.

There you have it--the Telescreen. Looks like Orwell's prediction was dead-nuts on, except for the time being off by just about 20 years.

Perspective Correction

[Phil Wilkins]

> my PS2 is practically the same size

No Dougal, the PS2 is small, the x-box is far away.

Offtopic - Bad Product Names. Re:funny names

[Geek In Training]

Offtopic for this story, but ontopic for this thread:

Strange though it seems, surely this can be the only explanation for an OS called 'winCE'...

I thought that one was bad, but not nearly as bad as the Audi sport sedan, the TT. Just look at it drive by, AudiTT on the bumper as it zooms past.

But think about it for a moment: why would you market an expensive car, aimed at high-class clientelle such as lawyers and accountants, and call it the auditt? It's not the Audi T T, it's the Audit!

DUH!

Re:Offtopic - Bad Product Names. Re:funny names

[duct_tape_n_wd40]

Equally offtopic...

Toyota Tacoma . What were they thinking? Like I'm going to drive that thing in a high wind...

Re:Offtopic - Bad Product Names. Re:funny names

[Anonymous Coward]

Insert obligatory mention of the Chevy Nova failing in Spanish-speaking countries here.

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

> In fact, water, alchohol, and even good old CO2

Actually, my dad, in his toolmaking days, told me tales about how they'd build a refrigerator that ran off compressed air. No need to get fancy with water, alcohol, or even good old CO2.

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Wasn't DuPont the company that supposedly invented a process to produce paper more cheaply from hemp than from trees, such that Hearst (who had just invested megabucks in forests to supply trees for his papers) created anti-marijuana rantings (can't call it familiar and friendly hemp anymore) in cahoots with a power hungry congresscritter who needed an issue to trumpet?

Or maybe it was Dow.

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

But that's not a sexy story that leads to power for certain politicians. Facts denied!

Fahrenheit 451

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm... Freon huh? Is that a DoubleSpeak reference to "the family".

I could care less...

[jjackson]

&lt rant &gt

If there is one piece of equipment that will never take up space in my house, it is a game console. I have 3 children that I spend enough time struggling with to get them to do their home work or find something a bit more creative to do than veg in front of a television.

I have 5 computers running at home... 1 for myself, 1 for my wife, 1 for my children, 1 that acts as a file/game server and one that runs Linux as a firewall. There are plenty of games available for the PC to provide the occassional gaming entertainment experience... the hell if I am going to spend another $400 plus the cost of games just to have a PC than can do nothing BUT play games. The whole concept seems stupid to me...

Buy a PC and a decent graphics accelerator. That way you can play games and when you aren't, the money you spent can actually be used for something productive.

While some may argue that Freon (probably more like expensive-on) adds additional functionality to the game console, it is not functionality that I want from a single piece of equipment... if I am playing a game and there is something on TV that I want to watch, I personally like the ability to record it at the same time without it causing a reduction in framerate or a sudden system crash.

I wish these idiots would simply focus on making a more stable and secure OS... some of of just simply like our Sony (or Panasonic, etc) entertainment equipment and could give 2 shits about M$'s visions... they belong in my office, not my livingroom!

&lt /rant &gt

Wow.

[Mathness]

Microsoft was expected to have shipped only 3.5 million to four million Xboxes by Sunday

I am impressed, several million X boxes shipped in a few days.
That is one amazing package and shipping department.

Oh wait... You mean from launch date till now?
My mistake.
Move along, there is nothing to see here.

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[suicidal]

The process that happens inside a refrigeration system is based on physics. It does not matter which gas. In fact, water, alchohol, and even good old CO2 all can be used as refrigerents and do just a good a job cooling food as Freon did.

Yes, it is based on physics, and had you stayed awake in said class, you might have clued in to the fact that different substances have different properties, and are NOT all equal. If they were, we'd be using inert gasses. *Simplified*: R-12 is compressed into its liquid state so that it will boil when passed through the evaporator, dropping in temperature to it's boiling point of (negative whatever degrees). It is then compressed back into liquid form (smaller tube), and it does it again.

Water (or any other fluid that I'm aware of) does not compress. That is the principal/law that hydraulic systems are based on. Fluids don't compress, gasses do. Ever seen a fuelie go up in an explosion and wonder what happened? Too much fuel in the cylinder (vs air), the compression was too much for the heads, and boom!

That said, I should note that many new refrigerents can be quite flammable under certain conditions. Plus lets not forget what CFC based refrigents do to the ozone layer. A problem much worse for everyone then the ammonia.

I'm still trying to figure out why this is so widely accepted. If anyone has a good answer, I'd be interested (seriously). How does a gas as heavy as chlorine rise above lighter gasses to the ozone layer? Chlorine is, after all, the catalyst in R-12 which is supposedly destroying the ozone layer, while at the same time we're complaining of high ozone content in the lower atmosphere due to vehicle emissions. Is the heavy gas Chlorine gas really making a miraculous trip into the upper atmosphere to destroy O3 while leaving the Ozone down here intact for us to breath? Or did DuPont buy another government backed scare to make more dough?

Kind of fitting the M$ would use a name already fraught with treachery and lies.

BMW versus Toyota?!

[dstone]

While "the Xbox is a full-feature BMW, the PS2 is a Toyota," says Bruno Bonnell, chairman and chief executive of French game maker Infogrames Entertainment SA.

Bruno's point can be taken either way. Okay, so he's French and there's probably some Euro-snobbery going on here. But consider that a fast, cheap, and arguably more reliable Toyota MR2 Spyder or Celica GT can give any "full-feature" BMW (read: bloated/luxurious) a good run in the real world. This is gaming. We're talking entertainment here. Bang for the buck. Not prestige or old reputation!

What Micro$oft wants

[Kotukunui]

Bruce Simpson of Aardvark thinks that Freon&copy is an attempt to put MS in the position of being the worldwide arbiter of digital media rights.

Read about his thoughts

Playing both sides

[Infonaut]

That's a scary thought indeed. I hadn't really thought about it that way, but do you think they'll be able to pull that off with television? They don't seem to have as much leverage in the MPEG, and broadcasters have a built-in aversion to any one company calling the shots on the technical end.

It seems to me that as they enter the TV market, they're dealing with a different kind of animal than they're used to. Of course, they've been working hand in glove with NBC for some time now, so they've doubtless learned a lot from the experience.

That's the thing about Microsoft. You can never count them out, because they can afford to hemmorage money and make colossal mistakes, because their pockets are so deep.

It will be interesting (in the "may you live in interesting times" sort of way), regardless of how it turns out.

Re: here's the _correct_ 3 step version

[fferreres]

Step 1: Find a big niche, saturate the market at dumping prices, lose lots of money but make sure competitors lose more money than they can afford to lose.
Step 2: ??????
Step 3: Profit

Well, we all know it works, and what the ???????? stands for.

Just like the chemical...

[Poppageorgio]

Just like the chemical Freon, its a bad thing, but they'll wait till 3/4 of america has the product in use before they explain how evil it is. By then, you won't have a choice about using it, unless you want an expensive upgrade.

website

[Anonymous Coward]

This Website sucks!!!.

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[CTachyon]

Note: Fscking Slashdot doesn't support <pre>, <sub>, or <sup> anymore, so the following may get ugly. Disclaimer: My family business is in the HVAC industry, albeit not at the design and manufacture end of things.

I'm still trying to figure out why this is so widely accepted. If anyone has a good answer, I'd be interested (seriously). How does a gas as heavy as chlorine rise above lighter gasses to the ozone layer? Chlorine is, after all, the catalyst in R-12 which is supposedly destroying the ozone layer, while at the same time we're complaining of high ozone content in the lower atmosphere due to vehicle emissions. Is the heavy gas Chlorine gas really making a miraculous trip into the upper atmosphere to destroy O3 while leaving the Ozone down here intact for us to breath? Or did DuPont buy another government backed scare to make more dough?

My understanding is that O3 has a half-life of something on the order of 15 minutes under normal tropospheric conditions, and is unstable enough even in the stratosphere that the ozone layer wouldn't exist if the Sun's UV light weren't constantly breaking it down and reforming it. That means that it's not very surprising that it doesn't migrate very far from where it forms. However, the atmosphere is highly turbulent, so the mere fact that a gas is heavy doesn't mean it won't find its way to the stratosphere (given enough time).

What makes commercial CFCs different from volcanic emissions is that CFCs are extremely stable -- just about the only things that break them down are fire and hard UV -- whereas most natural chlorine-containing gases are highly reactive. That reactivity serves to bind the chlorine from staying suspended in the atmosphere for long periods of time before being bound in less-reactive solid or liquid compounds that can no longer circulate. Those same properties that make Freon so attractive as a refrigerant compared to other hydrocarbons also make it a royal b*tch on the environment, because it bypasses that binding process.

Here's the (proposed) chemistry behind it, if you're interested. The reason chlorine is such a bitch is that chlorine readily forms the following progression of molecules, all of them radicals that are one valence electron short of a happy meal (so to speak):

Cl (would-be chloride)
ClO (would-be hypochlorite)
ClO2 (would-be chlorite)
ClO3 (would-be chlorate)
ClO4 (would-be perchlorate)

This means that, once the chlorine is released from the CFC molecule, it can react with ozone at a faster rate than the amount of ozone produced by UV bombardment. Discarding output energy that would be re-radiated as lower wavelength EM, here is a list of some of the partial reactions of the process, at least so far as I understand it (IANAC, but I'd love for one to step forward and correct me if I'm wrong):

(Normal O3 cycle:)

O2 + UV
2*O (cycle entry)

O2 + O
O3

O3 + UV
O2 + O

2*O
O2 (cycle exit)

(R-12 "eating" ozone:)

CCl2F2 + 2*UV
CClF2 + Cl + UV
CF2 + 2*Cl (cycle entry)

Cl + O3
ClO + O2

ClO + O3
ClO2 + O2

ClO2 + O3
ClO3 + O2

ClO3 + O3
ClO4 + O2

ClO4 + UV
Cl + 2*O2

2*Cl
Cl2 (cycle exit)

Note that, in the natural cycle, 4 O3 molecules will absorb up to 4 UV photons per iteration (slightly less in practice due to ozone's natural tendency to break down without help), whereas the chlorine radicals complete an entire iteration using only 1 UV photon. Even given that an O2 molecule can form two O3 molecules using the energy of a single UV photon, the chlorine still makes the O3 breakdown process ruthlessly more efficient.

I used to be skeptical of the CFCs => ozone depletion arguments, but over the last decade I have to say that the evidence is mounting in favor of the theory. Unless someone else can come up with an alternate mechanism, one as supported by the evidence as the CFC theory, I for one will presume that the CFC theory is, if not perfectly correct, then the best fit for the evidence that we have.

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[CTachyon]

Also, freon and its sister chemicals only accounted for a very small percentage of the free chlorine radicals in the upper atmosphere. In fact one volcanic eruption in south america in the early 90's spewed about 10 times as much chlorine into the upper atmosphere as all the industrial chemicals user in human history! Now because of its stable configuration freon has a disproportionate effect, but it is still estimated by some scientists that volcanic activity has had 2 orders of magnitude more impact on the ozone layer than human activity during the period since industrial revolution.

That's quite possibly a red herring, since the chlorine injected into the stratosphere by vulcanism is essentially accounted for on Earth's "books", whereas the chlorine added by CFCs is a new "expense" to the ozone system. We could still be putting the ozone layer "out of business" by the nickel and dime.

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[afidel]

Where in the hell do you think the chlorine from cfc's comes from? The earth, it all the same stuff, other than a hadfull of atoms made in cyclotrons and the few million obliterated in nuclear explosions we have not created/destroyed any elements. As I said because of the semi-stable configuration of cfc's they have a larger effect than their numbers would otherwise suggest but they are still dwarfed by naturally occouring phenomena. Oh yes and since the spotlight has moved off the ozone whole over antarctica the whole has healed over 85%.

Already stealing stuff again.

[Anonymous Coward]

I "heard" from a Cable company that sounds like Romrast that microsoft will be developing this technology for the digital boxes as a future feature. Already Microsoft is working on ways they can use it to their own benefit and they haven't even built it for the people paying them for it. When it is released it will be called Free on Demand. It will allow you to view TV as normal but you can view shows and events that has happened already. Like watch the 10 0'clock news at 12. I "heard" that this person is going to try and talk them into another developer for their programming like RedHat. But, has anyone here try'd to convice a multi-billion dollar corperation that their wrong lately. It most likely won't happen.

I'm sorry I'm weak. I want to keep my job and can't give you my name so stop asking.

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[Anonymous Coward]

How does a gas as heavy as chlorine rise above lighter gasses to the ozone layer?

It's been a while since I took my physics classes, but wasn't one of the generic properties of gases that they diffuse kind of nicely? Not that atomic weight doesn't matter, but it's not quite as drastic as with non-mixing liquids (that form nice layers almost instantenously).

However... don't CFCs generally also contain fluorides (hence the acronym; freon being marketing name for a CFC)? Fluor is the only gas even more active than chlorium, and wasn't that actually the bigger culprit regarding ozone? Or am I just talking out of my ass here? :-)

More rebranded "Innovation"

[Topgun1]

Freon will be capable of 'playing games but also offering television capabilities, such as pausing live TV and recording shows onto a computer hard drive.'

What...like Tivo?

Thanx :)

[Mulletproof]

I try not to be a picketing, rallying, tree hugging type. I'm aiming more for the patriotic capitalist pig side of things ;)

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[CTachyon]

Where in the hell do you think the chlorine from cfc's comes from? The earth, it all the same stuff, other than a hadfull of atoms made in cyclotrons and the few million obliterated in nuclear explosions we have not created/destroyed any elements.

No. Fucking. Duh. However, the vast majority of chlorine used in industry comes from a natural source that is (a) always found as a solid or in aqueous solution, and (b) very inert. This source is NaCl. The commercial process used to create nearly all industrial chlorine is to take NaCl(aq), a.k.a. brine, and electrolyse it into HCl and NaOH, thus releasing it from its inert state and allowing chlorine-containing compounds with higher enthalpy to be produced. Persistent gaseous suspensions of NaCl are unheard of outside the very bottom of the troposphere, since it gets rained out rapidly, and there isn't exactly an abundance of ocean water pouring directly into the stratosphere. Use some freakin' common sense, man.

As I said because of the semi-stable configuration of cfc's they have a larger effect than their numbers would otherwise suggest but they are still dwarfed by naturally occouring phenomena. Oh yes and since the spotlight has moved off the ozone whole over antarctica the whole has healed over 85%.

Your facts are 10 years out of date. You have been mislead. To quote Section 3 of the faqs.org link:

During the years 1978-1987 the hole grew, both in depth (total ozone loss in a column) and in area. This growth was not monotonic but seemed to oscillate with a two-year period (perhaps connected with the "quasibiennial oscillation" of the stratospheric winds.) The hole shrank dramatically in 1988 but in 1989-1991 was as large as in 1987, and in 1992-95 was larger still. In 1987 and 1989-95 it covered the entire Antarctic continent and part of the surrounding ocean.

Not the first.

[Martin Spamer]

I think that some of the marketing/PR people of MS have been sick / on holidays / away these times

This is not a first for MS Marketing.

The # symbol is read/verbalised as Hash in UK English; So C# is:

a C Hash - A messed-up or muddled C.
or
C-hash - Cash.

Your choice :)

Disaster vs. Proven Harmful

[ONOIML8]

I had to read what I posted several times and still I don't see where I claimed that Freon wasn't harmful to the enviroment. Actually I'm sure it was in some way.

What I said was that it was not a disaster. Floods, volcano eruptions, earthquakes, airplanes crashing into buildings.....these things are disasters.

If you're really wondering how it saved lives, take the time to do a little research into how Freon was used. Go visit an HVAC technician. Drop an email to Dupont. Talk to a doctor. But at least take the time to find out and don't let the enviromental extremests rule your thinking with their emotional plays.

True, maybe Freon wasn't the best thing in the long run. Same with R12, it was just as bad. But until we knew better it was used for good, not evil.

I a just so sick and fucking tired of comments like that being thrown into what should be reported as news. Yes, Microsoft sucks because of their strong arm tactics and lack of quality in their products. But that bit about Freon being a "disaster" had no place in the story, it was simply an enviromental wacko dig and had no place in the story.

Re:we all know what a disaster Freon was... try ag

[suicidal]

I'm still not convinced that Chlorine makes it up to the stratoshpere from turbulence, but I can tell you for certain that chlorine is the culprit. (For one thing, it's a question on the test to get your license to buy R-12 -- and what a joke that test is...answers in the front half, questions in the back half, match em up, mail it in with $$).

I thought /. had scientific minded folk

[Anonymous Coward]

If freon contains CFCs and eats up the ozone layer, what will MS Freon do?

Ah, I see you said the magic word... if. The FACT is that while CFC's do indeed break apart ozone, unlike all those other chemicals that also break it apart... hmmm, sounded great in my head! Anyway, besides the natural breakup and renewal process of ozone... dangit!

Ok, let me start over. It was indeed proven that the claims about CFC's were made by those who testified they lied and faked results and methods in order to recieve funding, the fact is that it does indeed break up ozone. However, the simplest fact of all is that unless there is a powerfull delivery vector, then CFC's will never reach the altitude to cause its damage in any remotely significant amount. So, if we were to follow the, ahem... logic (hahahahaha) of this reacting, errr manipulation... err I meant thinking. If we were to follow this thinking then perhaps we should not ever eat because of the noxious fumes our flatus and feces emit. I guess we should all shut down all our computers because of the lethal energy they produce (who cares that it is disipated several microns from its birth?)

Like the wanna be linux fans (often called fanboys, zealots, morons, etc) this kind of nonsense only serves to cloud the truth, manipulate the weak and push support away. Congratulations! You get this nice shiny pin with engraved golden lightening SS's, superimposed over a hammer and sickle, and made all purty with a midground swaztica. Let us call it the 'volunteer ministry of bullshit, propoganda, intellectual enslavement and mental terrorism'

right thinking? rather lobotomized

[Anonymous Coward]

unless you think that the phrase 'stupid sheep' is a complement and believe that blindly accepting bullshit instead of applying logic and reason is good.

Hey! lets invent a new agenda aimed at something else completely fabricated and then get sheep to support it by putting hate-rhetoric that will attract the 'socially aware' monkeys! You people are the worst enemy of everything you verbally claim you are for. Idiots.

yeah, this is totally new

[Anonymous Coward]

unlike:

• Nintendo
• Sony
• sega
• atari
• activision

this sucks quite a bit if the scenario you mention comes to pass (well it does, but it take a while), however I think we will all manage. It is not in the best economical interst (long term) for MS to ditch in anyway the support for the current platform for at least another 1.5 years, then it would enter a 4 year phase out (or so). That way they maximize their profits.

Freon - a perfect name for vapourware

[Mandelbrute]

It had to be said.

Good ideas in there though - but absolutly nothing that can't already be cobbled together today by amatuers with a hobby on mac, MS and *nix platforms. Getting it to be cheap will be the challenge.

Mt. Pinatubo

[Scott Carnahan]

In fact one volcanic eruption in south america in the early 90's spewed about 10 times as much chlorine into the upper atmosphere as all the industrial chemicals user in human history!

I believe you are referring to Mount Pinatubo, in the Philippines. See this link for a discussion of volcanic chlorine emissions, in particular, why CFC's may have a stronger effect on stratospheric ozone. I'd like to see a source for your figure of 2 orders of magnitude.

Certain economists had a running joke about classifying the Philippines as a Latin American country during the Asian economic boom of the 80's and early 90's, and as an Asian country during the Latin American boom (and the corresponding Asian crisis) a few years ago. Given the recent financial situation in Argentina, your geographic mistake is understandable.

hahaha, fight fire with fire!

[Anonymous Coward]

I love it when the response to racism against blacks is to answer by racism and generality in response. Yesiiirrreee, only a redneck would come up with that. Just think! when you write/say shit like that you make someone look favoringly at the nigger post. So perhaps that is your goal, stomp on people with the 'racist' stick and then laugh as it increases the problem.

Freon was patent-free for decades

[Spamalamadingdong]

I hate to come along this late, but I found this comment in meta-mod and... According to this page on Freons, they were patented in 1928. This would have put them ex-patent in 1945.

Re:Freon was patent-free for decades

[snatchitup]

The article has very little depth. I don't feel like doing a bunch of research on this, but I heard it from a fairly reliable source. You're onto something with duPont. Now, let's find out what the replacement for Freon is... I bet duPont, or one of its subsidiaries owns the trademark.

Re:Freon was patent-free for decades

[snatchitup]

Okay, it looks like I'm right. The new refrigerent is HFC-134a. And you guessed it, it's got a rubber stamp approval from the EPA and is owned by duPont.

HFC-134a is much more expensive to produce, and arguably just as bad or worse than Freon. It turns out that Freon was already under attack by generics lately. Several small producers were making alternative cheaper versions of Freon. Now, the EPA is going after these producers (guess who's $'s are helping the EPA do this)...

So, it's not blatently cut and dry, but basically, duPont is making the new stuff, and getting the EPA to shut down competition.

I think you missed the point

[Spamalamadingdong]

CFCs were being produced world-wide for decades before the ozone layer became a political issue and the Montreal Protocol was implemented to deal with it. Even after that, CFCs were being smuggled into the USA because they are so much cheaper than HFCs. And no, most of them are not manufactured by DuPont and do not carry the Freon trademark. IIRC, China and Mexico are big producers; they were given more time, as "developing countries", to shift to non-depleting refrigerants. Of course, people there have exploited this for everything it's worth (their entrepreneurs are no less smart than our entrepreneurs).

If you think that the ozone-depletion problem is part of a conspiracy to jack up DuPont revenues, you need to check your tinfoil hat, it's leaking.