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Seeking Power Mac Recommendations?
Pauly asks: "I'm going to do something I've never done: I'm buying a Mac. I'm a long-time UNIX developer and user for whom the prospect of trading a noisy, heat-spewing workstation or two in favor of a civilized Mac is irresistible. I'm quite used to making x86/*NIX hardware decisions. However, I'm finding myself stumped as I look at the G4/OS X options."
"As attractive as the (i|e)Macs are, I'm pretty certain I'll be getting a G4 tower to re-use my subtantial dual-monitor investment. Specifically, for my needs as a developer and power-user, I wonder:
- Are modern G4 towers quieter and/or cooler than comparable x86 workstations?
- Is it wiser to spend money on memory or megahertz?
- Is it best to buy everything directly from Apple, or just a minimum to be fleshed out with cheaper, after-market add-ons?
- What's the best video option for dual-head on Jaguar?
- Does OS X make SMP worth the investment?
- Is the SCSI performance gain great enough to be worth the investment over IDE?"
this, of course ;-)
Quieter: Not quieter, but they run w/o cpu fans (at least, the older ones did (g4-400)).
Memory!!! OS X really needs alot (1GB in my machine)
Tough to say - if you like having the machine under warranty, then spend the extra $ to get everything from apple. Getting the machine repaired can be expensive.
SMP - Yes, OS X plays nice w/ SMP. It's worth it.
In my experience, no. IDE's pretty quick nowadays, and entirely sufficient for home use.
I don't know answers to some of your questions, but here's been my Unix to Mac conversion experience:
Heat and Noise
Granted my old PC was a monster with all those fans, but I've been shocked by how quite the G4 I bought for my wife is. The amount of heat is about the same, but I've found the cases to transfer the heat better than some of the PC cases I've owned in the past.
SMP Support
My god, I couldn't believe how well OS X handles this. I often just open the CPU monitor to watch the near perfect load balancing. I had a 400 MHz dual G4. Under OS 9, there were only a handful of applications that could even use both processors. Now, OS X takes care of that detail and it's like an instant speed boost.
Memory vs MHz
Even when I purchased PCs, I always took memory as a more critical upgrade that the small MHz difference that I could find. To this day, I have maxed out all of my machines with memory, even if it means passing up the next processor line. Memory is cheaper and still makes a difference in how fast applications will respond.
Good luck with the Mac upgrade.
Most of my family are artists, so most of them use Apple computers. They're a lot quieter than any comparable machines I've seen. They aren't silent but compared to the boxes I'm using they seem like a whisper. If you feel the need to immediately spend extra money I'd recommend spending it on processor, there are no aftermarket options (that I know of) for replacing a processor on a current G4. Aftermarket RAM is available for substantially less than what apple charges. In addition their machines are amazingly easy to upgrade.
I'd recommending just getting the minimum configuration you can with the processor speed you want. You can purchase aftermarket hard drives, memory and other components later for substantially less.
For what one family member does with his G4 the SMP support is extremely helpful in terms of raw performance, but you've got to look at your applications and see if they exploit SMP. If you're writing your own code you can obviously make it support SMP, but you didn't really say what you were doing.
IDE on Apple's seem to work a lot better by default than IDE on PCs. I screw around with digital video, my sisters G4/733 captures via firewire without dropping a frame on the internal IDE drive. In order to duplicate this on my Windows 2000 box I had to install a second drive on a seperate bus from the system drive.
That didn't answer your question of course, but I just thought I'd point out that the comparision might not be so cut and dry.
I'd advice getting an aftermarket SCSI card and drive if you do decide to go that way however, you can save some money over Apple's prices.
Chris Kuivenhoven is a thief, beware
Glad to hear you're making the switch! I have zero regrets and my life has become much simpler without the constant worry about my hardware & unix config. Good luck!
Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
What on earth are you talking about? An online membership to the Apple Developer Connection is free and provides access to the download of developer tools. If you don't have the bandwidth to download the CD image, you can go to an Apple Store, go to the Genius Bar, explain your situation, and as long as you can show them that you can in fact log into ADC, they will probably help you download and burn the image. The ADC memberships that have a fee attatched give you support incidents and pre-release software.
1.) My 933Mhz G4 is a bit louder than a generic maytag-like pc, and seems to be on-par, if not a little cooler than the pc counterparts(YMMV).
:)
2.)Spend money on Megahertz, and go for a G4. Macs don't lend themselves to cpu upgrades *as much* as some intel cpu's, so go with a clockspped you'll be happy with. As for memory, see #3.
3.)Look for the CPU and CD/DVD drive when shopping for a desktop. IDE drives are a breeze to add on to a new G4 desktop after the fact, and Apple's memory isn't very competitively prices. (Crucial memory works well for me). Apple's super-mega-loaded machines are nice, but go for what you need. The superdrives are awesome.
4.)Go for the Titanium GeForce card, as it has a ADC *and* DVI connector for nice dual flatpanel support. If you're doing VGA monitors, think about the GeForce4MX that has an ADC and VGA. It depends on what you are going to be doing, as 2 displays do require more resources on your card to operate well. As for Jaguar, I dunno. For Quartz extreme, any GeForce for the mac should be fine.
5.)I hear good things about duals, but my single 933mhz works great for Photoshop & Final Cut Pro.
6.)Unless it's a server/multiuser machine, IDE is a better all-around solution for you. Firewire external drives work great in OSX, and IDE's a re cheap
**Disclaimer**
Your Mileage May Vary, but I hope this helps.
- Choose a style: tower, laptop, desktop (iMac)
- Choose a CPU speed: this is where cost can deviate the most
- Choose options: DVD recordable, type of display, etc.
I recommend generally not buying things like RAM directly from Apple, it's easy to add yourself. Mac OS X should have a minimum of 384MB of RAM, but hey it's cheap. I also would say save your money on SCSI. FireWire is the way to add external drives.Getting an SMP box is definately beneficial under Mac OS X, but a killer video card will buy you a lot more perceivable performance for everyday use. You probably should just plan on getting the video card directly from Apple with your machine.
All the other things like mice and stuff work so easily on Mac OS X. Anything USB or FireWire should most likely just work when you plug them in.
PowerMac towers tend to be quieter than x86 boxes. They also tend to be cooler. Design pays.
Memory trumps megahertz, in general, under MacOS X, especially with lots of GUI apps running.
I tend to buy from Apple, except for RAM, but upgrade later from third parties. Get the extended warranty; you probably won't need it but you'll be annoyed if you need it and don't have it.
I'm not really qualified to answer about the video cards, but I've got a couple of friends who have dual GeForce 4 cards and are happy with them.
The SMP support is fantastic!
Unless you are running a server, the SCSI drives are no longer a great deal better than IDE.
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
mac os x loves dual processors and RAM.
SCSI? only if you have money to waste.
Questions about unreleased software? Ug, just don't ask.
Know what I like about atheists? I've yet to meet one that believes God is on their side.
I do believe so. I recall some seriously loud fans on my roommates computers, and my DP 800 isn't nearly that loud. But I haven't done a scientific comparison by any means.
Is it wiser to spend money on memory or megahertz?
Depends on what you need it for. You will need at least 512 MB RAM. If you want super-fast processing, then spend the spare money on MHz, since it's tough to upgrade the macs for processor later. It's not so tricky with RAM.
Is it best to buy everything directly from Apple, or just a minimum to be fleshed out with cheaper, after-market add-ons?
With RAM, not Apple for sure. Everything else in the computer itself, go with Apple. You can get plenty better prices with after-market RAM.
What's the best video option for dual-head on Jaguar?
I'll be getting the GeForce4 Ti with the new machines I'll be ordering. It has two monitor inputs, and will work with the Quartz Extreme acceleration.
Does OS X make SMP worth the investment?
Depends on how much your time is worth. 2 1 GHz Processors will be slower than 1 2 GHz processor, but it's still plenty fast in OS X. If you want speed, get the Dual Processors. They are certainly nice.
Is the SCSI performance gain great enough to be worth the investment over IDE?
If you're not running a server, and you're not some anti-IDE frea...I mean, pro-SCSI evangelist, then no, don't bother with SCSI. for day to day use, IDE is well worth the price. SCSI is more reliable, and it has advantages in being full-duplex apparently, but I haven't run into any bottlenecks using it for my needs, which is print publishing.
Hope this helps
=Brian
There is nothing so good that someone, somewhere, will not hate it.
if i was to buy a machine now, i would spec it with dual 1ghz's and the ati 8500. .
one word to the wise, make sure you allow you mac to go through all of its schedualed maintanance tasks regularly, i think their defaulted to weekly. i was shutting down my box every time i wasnt using it for about a month and i became sluggish. make sure you let it run overnight so the maintainance programs can do their job, they run at like 1 am or something like that. but youd probably do this anyways.
hope this helps
I want 2D games back.
Going through the server specs, it's a nice workgroup machine, but the list of backup options has only a 250Mb zip drive. For a 72Gb (single disk) machine, this is pathetic. Apple should at least partner with someone to produce TBU options. In my opinion, you should go with SCSI from the outset, adding disks is a snap, and you get to bypass some of the controller contention that can bite you when messing with video.
MacWorld New York is RSN (17th), the current towers have (apparently) been EOL'd and this is floating around That's an Apple logic board (allegedly), it has DDR memory slots... it's a strange shape AND it's not an Xserve board.. you do the math :)
I too, have just switched from the x86 world. I got my 800mhz g4 PowerMac in feburary, and have been soooo happy with it. I'm a developer that just couldnt' resist the UNIX with a nice gui and nice 3rd party support. Here are some answers to your questions:
1. They are MUCH cooler than x86. if you open up a g4 while its running, and touch the heatsink, its not a single bit warm.
2. memory is so cheap that you shouldn't worry about it. MHZ and Memory aren't really comparable in money terms for a Mac. There is too big of a gap. I would spend what you think you can on the MHZ, and try to save for at least a stick of 512 to drop in there.
3.I'd say shop around, that goes for anything you buy, there really isn't anything you get special from buying from apple. If you are gonna pay cash, maybe try ebay,there are some good deals to be found there.
4. if you buy one of the CURRENT quicksilvers, ie 800, 933, dual 1ghz. You can buy an adapter from www.drbott.com for $35 that will convert the ADC video port on the video card to vga. I have done this and am using dual monitors on my G4, and the best part is that BOTH monitors are accelerated under jaguar. If i had gotten an add on pci card, only my main monitor would have been accelerated.
5. Os X completely takes advantage of dual CPUS. Developers do not have to write their apps to take advantage of SMP systems, like windows does. Every app under Os X will feel the dual cpus, from aol instant messanger to Adobe Photoshop to Quake III.
Let me know if you have any other questions. you can email me here
Wait until next week, when the Macworld Expo trade show begins. Next Tuesday is the Keynote address by the Apple CEO, that showmaster himself, Steve Jobs. It's possible that a new Power Mac G4 box will be announced then, which may influence your decision.
OTOH, the current line of hardware is still very robust (albeit lacking badly in system bus, if you ask me) and may be found at cheaper prices as any new hardware is made available.
Generally, the most savvy Macintosh users don't buy anything during the months before the January and July trade shows, but Apple also introduces new product outside of the trade show more often as well.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
I would say much quieter.
I have 2 867 single CPU machines under my desk at work and you can't hear them run.
I run 512 MB RAM on my TiBook and G3 desktop and thats a nice stable amount of RAM for OS X and OS 9 (or X and Classic).
1) First wait for Macworld (and if rumors are true) a few more weeks for new PoweMacs.
2) Think about what you want/need the system to do.
3) I find they are quite less noisy then say Athelon based systems. 1 fan (power) vs 6 (my dad's tower we built last week).
4) At least go dual, get as little RAM as you can from apple (same for HD if you desire more then base) and get it somewhere else. Remember once you have the mac you can replace virtually every part, yes even teh CPU.
5) If you can find some dealer that offers say no tax it can come out to be cheaper, always shop around.
6)Go for a GeForce 4 Ti with the dual head display, and you can get converters so you don't need to get new monitors.
7) SMP: YES YES YES!!! I have a dual 450, and it makes all the difference in the world.
8) As others have said IDE is fine unless your running a server or doing very heavy HD access stuff like pro video editing.
I hope this all made sense and was helpful, and welcome to the platform.
Are modern G4 towers quieter and/or cooler than comparable x86 workstations?
I have a G4/833 Tower, as well as a Pentium IV 1.7 Ghz. The 1.7 is in a steel ATX supertower with a processor fan, two 4" smart fans, and a fan on the video card. It's noisy.
The G4 has an excellent enclosure for heat dissipation, and uses a processor heatsink and one 3" case fan. It produces the same percieved noise levels as the whitenoise from my external computer speakers when I crank them all the way up.
Is it wiser to spend money on memory or megahertz?
It really depends on your application. I develop on my Mac, and I do some Photoshop work, as well. Memory is definitely an issue for me, and I have 512MB of memory. I use PC-133 SDRAM, which is thankfully very inexpensive. You have four slots to work with, and I'd recommend configuring at least 384 MB of RAM for mid-user applications. If you want to be a power-user, get a half-gig or more. And buy all of the processor power that you can afford. You won't be sorry.
Is it best to buy everything directly from Apple, or just a minimum to be fleshed out with cheaper, after-market add-ons?
I like using the Apple Store for the "build-to-order" config options, just because it's handy. For things like RAM, unless you're taking advantage of some sort of promotional deal, get the RAM from a third party. Almost all RAM is lifetime-guaranteed, anyway. I really like getting into the G4 case. You just pull the latch, open the hood, and look around.
What's the best video option for dual-head on Jaguar?
Jaguar's not out yet, but I don't think it's gonna cause me to change my config. I use the GeForce 4 card that came with it along with a Radeon 8500 for my dual-head setup. It's actually probably a little bit of overkill, but everything works great.
Is the SCSI performance gain great enough to be worth the investment over IDE?"
Not for my use, but a good friend of mine does a ton of video editing, and he swears by his SCSI-3 RAID. It's certainly noticeably faster, but it's also a lot of $$. I love the speed of my Mac, and I also like to avoid spending lots of $$ for frills. I'd say that if you're thinking of going SCSI-1, don't waste your time. Only SCSI-2 or -3 are going to make a noticeable difference over Ultra-ATA, IMHO.
What's involved in rackmounting Mac hardware? Any real world, prior experience advice out there?
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
Anyway, the cheap ones have a better $ per MHz value: an 800MHz G4 goes for $1600 ($2/MHz). The 933MHz version goes for $2300 ($2.46/MHz).
* Are modern G4 towers quieter and/or cooler than comparable x86 workstations?
YES. I have a high end AMD gaming system with a tweaked out case. Despite buying quality fans it is still very loud. The G4 towers are silent in comparison and the apple case still puts my PC case w/window to shame. The AMD system is probably a faster for windows only games, but that's a mute point, isn't it?
* Is it wiser to spend money on memory or megahertz?
Memory. I think this has always been true. As a rule of thumb try and double the default memory that Apple packages with their hardware.
* Is it best to buy everything directly from Apple, or just a minimum to be fleshed out with cheaper, after-market add-ons?
Unless you want to be dangerously grey market, stick with apple or its official retailers. They all have the same prices. Direct from apple gives you more customization options, while a trip to CompUSA may get you an extra scanner and instant gratification.
* What's the best video option for dual-head on Jaguar?
Don't know this one.. Maybe wait until it is released?
* Does OS X make SMP worth the investment?
Hardly anything makes SMP worth the investment for non-servers. The exception might be if you're doing lots of compiling, ripping, and video encoding. No one wants to admit it, but for many consumery applications (games, cheap software) SMP systems tend to expose more software and driver bugs that single CPU systems.
* Is the SCSI performance gain great enough to be worth the investment over IDE?"
Not if you only have a single drive. I just spent a week with iozone and a 15K RPM SCSI Cheetah drive. Sure it's faster than 7200RPM IDE but not that much faster and it costs a ridiculous amount, and it runs so hot that you *know* you're going to have higher failure rates. Not worth it for a single internal drive. It's more worth it for RAID setups. Don't worry about SCSI on the G4 tower, however.. If you need a fast disk for video work just hook up an external one with Firewire.
I don't know what your workload is, I do a lot of Mathematica on a dual 1GHz PowerMac. On the positive side I never get noticeable lag in GUI operations or other activities while running a long calculation in the background, even when both columns on the CPU meter are totally green (usually for about a second or so). On the other hand, Mathematica itself is not SMP aware and when other system activity is low I still see the load switching between CPUs on the CPU meter. Benchmark tests confirm that my box is actually slower than a single processor due to overhead as processing switches between CPUs.
So, if you are not running SMP aware apps, but do regularly run processor intensive apps in the background then the dual processors are worth it if only because of lost productivity due to a nonresponsive GUI otherwise. On the other hand, if you only run processor intensive task while away from the machine then save yourself the money and wait (and pray) for a faster CPU.
Get your extra memory elsewhere. Apple charges a lot more for memory than 3rd party places.
What feeling do y'all have about the laptops. I really want an ibook (im poor), though I am concerned about it being only a G3 processor. Are the guts of the machine gonna last, or should i wait and see if a new design is on the horizon? if only they would stuff a g4 into those things.
I'm very curious to know what kind of develoment. The PowerMacs are quite expandable and are the fastest systems Apple produces, but as a recent upgrader from a G3 PowerMac to a G4 iMac, I'm very pleased with my new system.
:) It is very quiet. And the LCD screen is downright lucious. I'm a little sad that I only have a 15" display, as rumors of a 17" are rampant. (Typical man, I know, always wanting the BIG ONE.)
;)
Are you doing something brutal computationally? Or are you developing generic large programs? Generally, unless you really need an enormous amount of CPU power, or a huge amount of disk storage, an iMac or G4 PowerBook will be nearly as fast.
The iMac will buy you a small foot print. Mine has 768M of memory a SuperDrive and a 60G hard Disk. I'm still trying to put it to full use.
A G4 PowerBook will buy you portability. Recent models include DVI support so if you want that external monitor you can have it. In addition, you'll be able to cart your development environment with you!
All systems have FireWire and USB 1.x and will provide for plenty of expandability when it comes to storage and input peripherals.
A must buy for any new Mac will be a USB hub of some type, as those peripherals do tend to multiply quickly.
As for Memory vs. CPU, I'd always pick memory. As everyone else has already pointed out, all CPUs waiting for SWAP run at the same effective clock speed.
The current generation of Powermacs very limited by their anemic memory subsystem. Rumor has it that Apple will be introducing "true" DDR G4 Towers at MWNY next week (as opposed to the Xscale).
That's what I'm doing. I have the money budgeted, but I can't really stomach spending it on a dual 1.0ghz box that's still stuck on PC-133 SDRAM.
And the rule of thumb when buying from Apple is get as little as possible from the Apple store and buy the rest of the components elsewhere. Nowadays, that mostly means memory (cheaper from Crucial) and disk (cheaper from anywhere.)
'jfb
To spur "enterprise Linux," Big Bang, the distributed two-phase commit.
To summarize, he would say:
That said, before you do anything, WAIT. Wait until after MacWorld next week and wait until Jaguar is announced (it is supposed to ship in August, so it will probably be announced at MacWorld). Jaguar, with QuartzExtreme, will probably have a big impact on the card you want for dual monitor support.
From my experience, build to order your G4. Get the minimum RAM (single stick; if you have to choose between a 128 stick and a 256 stick you might want to go with the 256), minimum hard drive (optional, Apple isn't horrible and since you have to have one you might want to get one you'll keep) and get rid of things you don't need ($29 modem). RAM you can from Crucial or PriceWatch. Hard drive from PriceWatch or somewhere else. SuperDrives are nice.
Get the best CPU you can (see BadAndy's advice above). You don't really upgrade your CPU, so this is critical.
Don't get it from Apple, but do get RAM. It makes the biggest difference in OS X responsiveness. RAM is cheap, and while I am fine with 160MB in my iBook most of the time, I notice a difference on my slower home machine with 384MB. OS X's window server can basically use as much as you give it.
Hope that helps,
Nathan (n8_f@maccom)
To explain my motives, I'm tired of incessantly admining/configuring/fighting the system at home. I have the money to pay Apple to do that for me now. I still advocate Linux on the desktop at work, but I don't get paid to tinker at home.
Actually, between the girl and I, we'll be doing all sorts of development (one of us always seems to be working from home). She'll be spanking the memory writing Java Swing code in JBuilder, and I'll be spanking the CPU's with computationally intense C++ financial modelling algorithms. I also plan on picking up Objective C along with making some GUI toys for XML authoring I've been tinkering with on Linux using QT.
Especially for her, screen real-estate is tantamount in importance (our current workstation uses dual 19" monitors). Therefore, I think I'll have to stick to a tower to power our current screen real-estate (and eventually a Studio Display) even though I would MUCH rather have the iMac -- I'm a staunch minimalist at heart.
That may be true, but I'm not necessarily good at one of them. Ok, either of them....
OK, so the Dual Processor machines are sweet (I'm typing from one), but so are the TiBooks! They are PLENTY fast enough for just about any dev work (though maybe upgrade the disk (after market)).
Plug in a monitor, and you're dual-headed.
Plug in a USB keyboard & mouse, and you're feeling like a desktop.
The only downside to the TiBooks is that you don't get FANTASTIC airport reception, like the iBooks do...
Shop around before you buy. With Apples current attitude toward industry standard parts, you can, generally, use all sorts of commodity, over-the-counter parts that are labled for PCs (NOTE: video cards don't follow this rule. Niether do modems. For most other types of cards you can either find Mac drivers online, or you can download programs from the manuacturers to flash that card's ROM for Mac use. It is best to do some research before you buy)
Best by what measure? The ATI 7500 is a nice enough card (I use a RADEON 7000 PCI at home in B&W G3) but I'd prefer an 8500. It's a shame that Apple doesn't offer it. OTOH, the NVidia card does sound very nice. I don't know, what are you planning to use the machine for? Most applications, IMO, don't benefit too much from SMP, and the premium kills and 'sweet spot' opportunity. Still, it depends on your application. On a server, sure, but not for most desktop applications. Besides, you can always add a third-party SCSI card at a later date.Overall, my advice is to buy a middle of the line machine, skimp on memory directly from Apple (upgrade though a third party), possibly skimp on the hard drive as well (upgrade through a third party), get the best optical drive and video card Apple offers (software support is vital for both, so get them from Apple), and everything else is a toss-up. Buying middle of the line saves you some money, which is good since this is your first Mac: if you discover you don't like Apple products (not that I think that's likely to happen) you won't feel so bad about the money you spent. Once you are comfortable with Apple hardware, you can decide home much (or little) you want to spend on your next machine.
In general, unless there are compelling reasons to go for the top of the line, buying middle of the line is a good policy. When your machine is, inevitably, made obsolete, you won't feel so bad, since you weren't cutting edge to begin with. With Macs, you have the added advantage of, generally, being able to upgrade the system (new CPU, memory, disks, etc.) without needing an entirely new motherboard, so the middle of the line system will last longer than similar systems on the PC side.
After 15 years or so of PC dedication, I just got myself a PowerMac. I've never been happier. As for your questions:
Are modern G4 towers quieter and/or cooler than comparable x86 workstations?
My new machine is far quieter than my old machine, but far from silent. With the clocks going up on the G4, and the near-excessive nVidia offerings, cooling is becoming much more important. But, it has fewer fans than my old PC, and they're put in places where they actually do things.
Is it wiser to spend money on memory or megahertz?
Both. You can always get more memory later, and it will be worth it. MacOS X will eat your memory as fast as you can feed it, especially if you're doing anything video-related.
Is it best to buy everything directly from Apple, or just a minimum to be fleshed out with cheaper, after-market add-ons?
Mine came with the academic discount, so it would have been more expensive to get individual components. I'd say finding your own hard disks would be cheaper, and same with ram.
What's the best video option for dual-head on Jaguar?
GeForce4 Ti 4600. Ouch. I've never been motion sick from a 3d shooter until Apple mailed me that hog.
Does OS X make SMP worth the investment?
I think so. It's nice to be encoding a 10-gig MPEG4 and have no noticable slowdown in my other applications. Again, I think it depends on what you want to use the machine for.
Is the SCSI performance gain great enough to be worth the investment over IDE?"
I don't have SCSI, but the IDE drives have been just fine. Although I haven't looked into it myself, setting up a RAID with IDE drives is probably trivial, which could give a good performance boost on your disks.
My PowerMac is the most expensive machine I've ever burned my bank account on, but as I've had trouble-free operation and excessive performance, it's worth it. That whole BSD-ness behind the Apple makes my heart melt.
-agent oranje.
Unless, of course, you get the RAM direct from Apple. No offense to them or anything, but they rip you off when it comes to RAM. Go to Crucial Technology and get yourself just as much ram for half as much money.
Good Luck with the new machine!
-braxton
The developer tools are free on Mac OSX, just as is trolling on /.
1) WAIT TILL MWNY is OVER! Prices will drop, deals will be had.
2) The G4 runs pretty cool.
3) Buy a dual system from Apple but skimp on the drive and ram. Add those from the many other places (http://www.dealmac.com) is a safe bet. A number of test have shown the Western Digital 120GB Special Edition drive to be way fast.
4) Max the Ram. It is cheap and worth it. Max it to 1.5 GB and never look back. My old 350Mhz G4 has 1.5 GB and still is pumping along.
5) Get a video card that suits your needs.
And most of all, welcome and enjoy the heck out of it.
BZ
Most of this was written to help a friend out, I've updated it to reflect the situation you've discribed. I've included a couple of URL's below that should help in your search for a good Mac for your purposes. It might be worth noting that when you're buying an Apple, it often is a better deal to get a refurbished model and purchase additional AppleCare service agreements. Any reputable dealer will have more information on this for you, if you ask.
Go for MHz over memory. Memory can be added later. Invest in MHz. Also, it seems to be more prudent to buy your memory separately from the computer, for the dealers often use memory to pad the profit margin. For instance, Apple's current rate for 512MB memory on the PowerMac G4 is $300, vs. $71 at a memory retailer. Same thing goes for hard disk drives, though the difference won't be as great, and depending on the model it may be less trouble to buy what they're offering than to do the upgrade yourself. For reference, I have recently found an 80GB 7200RPM drive with an 8MB Buffer for about $114. That's a large, fast drive that surpasses most OEM hardware...
One thing you may want to keep in mind is that Macworld New York is coming up at the end of the month, and Apple may be introducing new hardware, or updating current line-ups at that time. The signs are good, and point to some changes I've been anxiously awaiting for some time now. For instance, Apple recently introduced xServe, which is a rackmount server with a motherboard that uses DDR memory. This change in memory type is an advance that should have been made some time ago, and may percolate down to the non-server models at Macworld NY. If you must buy now, go with the xServe, 1GHz Dual processor: as a professional, it would not be a bad investment. As a home user, it probably isn't suited to your needs, so a tower would be a better choice, but that DDR sure looks yummy!
http://dealmac.com/
Tips on hardware and software deals.
http://dealnn.com/
Tips on hardware and software deals. Different though.
http://www.ramseeker.com/
Good memory prices, provides merchant reviews. Another deal-site, not a retailer.
http://www.powermax.com/
Reasonable retailer, offers new, used and refurbished. Does packages.
http://www.smalldog.com/
http://www.smalldog.com/SmallDogPriceList.txt
Another reasonable retailer, offers new, used and refurbished. Does packages too. Second address is for the pricelist, gives a No BS rundown of the equipment they carry.
Now I've only listed a couple of places here, if you want more let me know. I think you'll notice that the big names (The Apple Store, MacMall, Etc.) aren't listed above, because I figured you could find those easily enough. If you want a list of big guys, email me. They have good deals too sometimes.
Oh, forgot to mention - Apple runs all kinds of rebates and promo's all the time so check their site out for the forms and such. And you don't always have to purchase directly from Apple to qualify, either.
I know I've not answered every specific question, but hopefully you haven't been too swamped with replies at this point and this will help with your purchase.
Good Luck!
PS: I bought an Power Mac G4 450 DP when they were first announced about two years ago, and still use it day-to-day for motion graphics, web development, video work, and fun. I've got 768MB RAM, and am running OS X v. 10.1.5, and my biggest bottleneck at this point is my hard disk drive speed. I will probably be investing in the drive I mentioned above: Western Digital model #WD800JB can be found on PriceWatch.com by searching for "8mb 7200" and if you want the larger model (120GB) look for model #WD1200JB.
Mmm, Slashdough.
Excuse me sir, I'd like to eat your cookies.
I'm curious...What benchmarks are you talking about exactly? And I do mean, exactly. From what I know, the overhead is not an issue at all. It sounds like you have a software or hardware problem unrelated to the actual machine itself. I am also a mathematician, and sigh, it is strange that Mathematica is not dual processor aware that I know of (Windows 2000 version at least). It would help a lot to do simulations on non-serialized/simultaneous systems of equations in Mathematica if it could divy the computations among the CPU's. There are SMP aware modules that you can use with Mathematica and the Mathematica kernel. I just sent Wolfram Research an email as I was typing this response about SMP awareness in Mathematica. I am switching to Macintosh OSX as soon as this fall comes around (I am hoping at least) or next spring for sure. And I have used Mathematica on Linux and I like it in that environment (much better than Windows 2000), so I am looking forward to it on Mac OSX. You can Mathematica in a parallel computing environment such as Mosix and others, so I don't see why Wolfram can't make Mathematica SMP aware. I am going to wait for their response. But, SMP on Mac OSX is not a problem.
just wanted to add:
My g4 tower runs cool enough so that i can keep it in the closet (with the door closed most of the time), which just about kills any noise. I'd say it's maybe a little quieter than a PC when it's out in the open.
In my last machine (g3), I had the IDE drive that came with it and a SCSI drive installed, and I didn't really notice a difference. Also, make sure you definitely need it before you go with the SCSI option. Some applications (Pro Tools, for instance) don't even support it.
Unless you run memory-intensive apps (like 3D ones) and you know you need it, I say get 256 RAM and spend the rest on processor speed. You can always buy more RAM later, and it'll just get cheaper. Not so with processor speed. I probably don't need to mention to get quality RAM. Newer (the company), for example.
c-hack.com |
If you're doing development and any sort of compiling is involved, MHz matters. I was shocked at the difference in compile times between my Single Processor G4/433 and the dual 800 I used briefly at WWDC for java/WebObjects development. Granted, that's almost a four-fold increase in MHz, but I figured the bus or hard drive might be the bottleneck. Not so.
Definitely get the dual 1 GHz, which comes with 512 MB RAM (plenty, most likely). Plus, looks like you can get a $500 credit towards an Apple display (which are gorgeous things) with that machine right now. Really nice feature of the displays is that they only have one cable to the computer, supplies signal, power, and USB. Less clutter! I must say, all this talk is making me a tad jealous. Good luck to you.
You drank my drink, you drunk!
tibook 1GB memory second screen (with dvi connector for the current tibooks, else vga) all that you need ;-) (+love)
Wow, if Microsoft is more open than Apple that must mean they've released the kernel and the GUI source for Windows XP. That's a pretty bold move...
Oh, wait, they haven't done any of that, have they?
Check out this mp3 file of the XServe fans....
more info and experiences at this guys homepage
I've got one arriving next week, and from all reports, I'll be wanting to look into whacking it into my networking cabinet just to get it out of my room...
Not quite sure why Apple are marketing it as a workstation though....
Using Xserve as a rackmount workstation
Digital video professionals who are thinking of using Xserve as a rackmount workstation can get built-to-order units from the Apple Store.
i don't read slashdot anymore.
As other people have said (-1 redundant):
Wait until next week for the new machines.
Max out your RAM by buying from a third party.
I recently installed a couple of sticks of RAM in my Mac. It literally took less than 2.5 minutes (150 seconds) between the time the disk stopped spinning to the time I pushed the power button to turn it back on. And I wasn't hurrying or being hasty.
An xserve might fit in nicely with the rest of my audio gear, but damned if I could cope with that level of background noise....
I've never heard how noisy one of the Marathon rackmounts ends up being either, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's noisier than a vanilla G4 is.
Better off getting those rackmout replacements for the G4 handles. Sure your box ends up taking up 6 rack units, but it would surely be quieter... though putting cds in and out could be a problem...
i don't read slashdot anymore.
1. Buy a better keyboard. The one with the G4's is slightly small and doesn't have good arrow keys. The Microsoft Office keyboard is pretty good, although the function keys are in groups of 3 instead of groups of 4 which makes me screw up a lot. Combine it with QuickKeys and you are in power user nirvana.
2. Buy a better mouse. Once again the Microsoft optical mouse is great. Unfortunately not enough programs on the Mac use the context menu in an intelligent fashion. (IMO) Still this is a very nice mouse and more and more applications support the scroll wheel. It'll still seem like a step down from Windows, but the Mac is more consistent than most Linux apps with regards to the mouse. (IMO) So you'll enjoy it.
Once I did these two things my enjoyment of OSX went up enormously. Some may slam me for picking Microsoft hardware. I don't know who they subcontract to for their stuff, but it is by far the best I've found. My favorite keyboard is still an old Northgate Omnikey keyboard I got off eBay. But unfortunately there's no old school PC Keyboard adapter -> USB. The MS Keyboard is probably my second favorite - minus those damn function keys.
Yes, it is quieter, but not silent. I just did what you are doing, and have a few complaints. I still love the Mac platform, but it's got some rough edges. I actually preferred OS 9 as a user because it's much crisper on the same hardware.
MHZ is most important The Mac GUI is inefficient, and everything happens with a fade or zoom. So it's slow by design as well as slow because it's a pig. A dual G4 1GHz makes for an acceptable GUI. My dual G4 500 is too slow - even typing is sluggish. I'm not kidding, it's really a problem.
The keyboard is odd Pet peeve: Home, End, Page Up and Page Down don't do what you expect - they are nearly useless.
Page Up and Page Down always move the scrollbar, not the cursor. And Home and End move to the beginning and end of the document, respectively. This is inexcusable in my opinion. Every time I hit end I lose my place!
The terminal window is broken so you'll want to find a new xterm right away - GLTerm is $10 shareware and seems to work pretty well
The ports tree is missing! I never realized how convenient it was until it was gone.
Apple gouges for Memory and everything else. When I bought mine, Crucial memory was HALF the price of Apple memory. Extra hard drives are also best purchased elsewhere. But stuff that requires drivers, like video cards and scsi cards is best bought from apple, or from a company that makes an apple specific version. Odd hardware on the PCI buss will make it impossible to put the Mac to sleep. (or worse, impossible to wake up.)
If you are thinking about running Virtual PC for any reason, the Dual G4 1GHz is a must - and you should probably wait a month or two for the speed bump.
SMP is flawless of couse single threaded programs will only take advantage of 1 CPU
SCSI is worth it although you might want to consider the $400 adaptec 160 SCSI card (specifically for macintosh) and a $250 36G Ultra 160 hard drive, as a way to both save a few hundred bucks and to get that nice quiet drive you really want.
Think different This is not a PC. You want to spend more than you normally would because it's not upgradeable and because you will keep it longer than you have ever kept a PC. Get something that works for you now and you will still be using it in 3 years.
Welcome aboard!
I've been purchasing Macs for our small company for years. Here are a few tips for getting the most bang for your buck...
First off I'd like to say that you'll probably be happiest with a tower. Anyone who likes to tinker with hardware should get a G4 tower. iMacs are great little boxes, but they don't leave much room to play around.
Processor speed increases happen slower in the Mac world than PC, so your not as prone to be left behind if you go with a slower processor. While the higher end models end up costing close to twice the lowest end (like 200mhz is worth it?)... that math for buying a higher end model never paned out for me (unless you have a lot of $$ to burn).
I usually go to the Apple site to see what the current line up has to offer. Then I call around the catalog resellers (free memory is good) to see what they have available. Quite often they have a model just below the low end (considered hot a few months ago) for a substaintial discount. Or the same things listed on the Apple site, but at better prices... it's rare I can't find a better deal with a catalog reseller. Here are a few companies to look up:
ClubMac
MacWarehouse
MacMall
Other World Computing (OWC)
CRW
PS these guys usually don't have they're best deals listed on their websites.
Good Luck
Probably Macs are quieter than cheap PCs. If you have a reasonable quiet PC, there will likely be no difference.
Memory vs. Megahertz.
Macs have a problem will speed in OS X. I do not know if this is going to be fixed. On my 256K 550 MHz PowerBook, with a HD more than 1/2 full, Mac OS X is slow. If you are buying a tower, I wouldn't worry about the installed memory. You will probably just add 512K chips to it as time goes on. It looks like there are three free slots, each supporting 512K, for a total of 1.5G. Apple generally charges too much for memory, so it can add later.
In terms of speed, go and play with the machines to see what seems reasonable. If you are going to spend a lot of time at the command line and Emac, you will not need a lot of speed. If you are going to spend at lot of time dealing with graphics, buy as much speed as you can afford. If I were buying a machine, and had the cash, I would get the 933MHZ PPC G4 at $2.3K.
The Apple vs. Retail Store thing
I have bought from both. The retail outlets do not get the latest stuff very quickly, nor are they immediately responsive to price changes. The retail chains also are not able to customize the systems as cheaply as Apple, although this is not such an issue with a tower. I would look at the local retailers and compare their stock to the online stock. If you can find something locally, go ahead and buy it. I will save the week shipping. If you do not like to shop, just order online. They are fast and courteous.
The best video.
I don't know.
OS X and SMP
I don't know.
SCSI and IDE.
I have always been a SCSI person. I have quite a number of SCSI devices from when Apple actually supported the adapter. I added a SCSI card to my G4, it was made to work with the G4. However, the card is not 100% compatable with the G4, and often interferes with my G$ sleep mode, and even, on occasion, makes the mouse go away on wake up.
So, if you are going to SCSI, make sure the card you use works very well. I do not believe that Apple is committed to SCSI. For example, the CDRW and harddisk they sell are Firewire, USB, IDE, but no SCSI.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
If there is one thing that the towermodel of the powermac isn't, then it's quiet. I used to own a G4/733 but got so fed up with all the noice that I sold it and got an iBook instead.
The G4/733, as all the other Quicksilver macs, has two big fans (three actually, but the third is quite small and doesn't make a lot of noice), one for the PSU and one for the slots. Since the cooling for the CPU on that model is the same as the cooling for the dual 1GHz model, it's possible to disconnect the slot fan and almost reduce the noice level bu half. But that's only if you have ONE harddrive and no other expansion cards but the gfx-adapter.
It worked for me but your milage may vary. I'm a happy iBook owner now since my mac is quiet, small and portable.
-- http://z80.org - all opinions, all the time --
your post is actually rather interesting, and it's an issue that I was not aware of. It seems extremely odd that UMA chipset based machines should bother to support ADB at all, but I'm assuming that the idea is to save USB bandwidth (or, more likely, laziness). I would also expect that some future revisio of UMA will drop ADB support entirely, but I would hardly consider ADB "broken by design". It wa merely a design choice with some unfortunate consequences - as have many design choices. That's life.
That was classic intercourse!
I believe I ran the spec95 benchmarks. The difference between a uniprocessor and a dual processor were only about 1-2% if I recall, so the overhead is small, but it exists. If you are really interested send me a note (mukasa@jeol.com) and I will run it again and send you the results.
I wouldn't call myself a mathematician, I just use Mathematica a lot. As I said I am running Mathematica on a dual G4 box and as far as I know none of the standard distribution is SMP aware. I suppose this is due to the difficulty of parallelizing the language since most machine specific behaviour is abstracted away. Otherwise it runs very well on the Mac. I mostly use it for symbolic calculations and numerical algorithm development so I don't make a lot of plots, but from the Mathematic on OS X presentation from Wolfram it seems there are some advantages to using Quartz for graphics.
Then again, I do believe there was a version of Mathematica for the Connection Machine that was SMP aware. Maybe they can dust it off and reincorporate it into the standard version.
As a long time fan of the Macintosh platform I applaud your decision. I just upgraded my old PowerMac 7500 to a PowerMac G4 933MHz and I have 512MB of RAM. I have two hard drives (1 purchased with system and a second added later for Yellow Dog Linux). I run OS X 10.1.4 on my primary parition with OS 9.2 on the second Mac partition.
I tend to agree with most of the replies about processor and RAM so I won't add anything more there, and I don't know enough about SMP to reply intelligently. SO I won't.
There are plenty of good apps out there for the Mac to run under OS X including Photoshop for the artists out there, and Mac Office X is great. The only thing I hope for is a version of Outlook for OS X.
I have found plenty of good tools as well such as the normal DNS suite - finger, ping, whois, etc. - much of them included with OS X itself. I have VPN and VNC apps as well.
All in all a great upgrade and I hope you enjoy your new purchase.
Unless things have changed dramatically in Apple Dev program in the past few years, the $100 => one-time-20%-discount is only available as part of the student developer package. The cheapest non-student package costs about $500/yr, though it offers a single yearly hardware discount.
More information on Apple's developer's program here.
There's a lot of good advice here already, but I have a few additions.
First, I don't recommend buying directly from Apple, either in a store or online. Buy from a mail order dealer that does not operate in your state. Apple charges sales tax wherever you are; some mail order catalogs (depending on your location) do not. Call and ask. You'll save a nice chunk of change by not paying sales tax. When I bought a Titanium PowerBook in December, I spent the tax I saved on getting a gig of RAM. The sales tax would have been $247 here in New York City; minus shipping, that still put me about $200 in the clear. The RAM cost exactly $300. Plus, I sold the two 256MB chips it came with to a friend and came out better than even.
Second, while I do agree that your life will be more trouble-free in general when using a Mac for your work, the BSD layer is still BSD. Apple hasn't done much to simplify it, if anything, and they've certainly made a few changes that might take some getting used to. Be careful when installing the GNU ports for Darwin: they'll fuck you up if you're innattentive because they like to replace or move Apple-installed bits.
Third, I'd second the OroborOSX recommendation. Too sweet have it sitting there in the dock, running the GIMP and Xterm and Abiword and what all, with no extra window clutter of the other window managers and themes for XWindows. It's faster running in rootless mode, too, running strictly in XWindows.
Wordnik, a dictionary project which aims to collect
Remember if you buy on a credit card, the factory warranty is usually doubled. Ask your bank. I always skip the extended warranty and get a second year free on a platinum Mastercard; you can even extend further for less than Apple.
Lies about crimes
The bandwidth myth has been debunked many times on the Altivec list and the SciTech list. The Mac bus is 64-bits wide unlike the 32-bit x86, so bus MHz tells you only half the story (pun intended). Except for a couple of asm instructions, poor Intel memory controllers mean that current G4 towers actually provide better bandwidth than x86, and the gap has only widened with the Xserve.
Lies about crimes
http://www.apple.com/switch/tell/us.html
Give 'em your story (PC -> Mac), make it emotional, maybe they will buy it and give ya a free one for your trouble...
"guanga gualuanga"
Nice troll. Provide links if you want to convince me.
Yes, the Mac data bus is 64-bits wide and the address bus is 36. I don't know as much about Intel Pentium's data bus, but I thought they were 64-bits, also. Regardless, the PIV's bus speed is 400mhz (iirc; aren't they supposed to hit 533mhz soon?), or 3x the Macs, so even if they are pushing half as much data they are still 50% faster.
And regardless, I'm not comparing to Pentiums. I'm saying that the single biggest bottleneck on the Mac is the frontside bus. It doesn't matter how faster or slower it is compared to the Pentium or any other architecture. What matters is whether the CPU's data bus is holding up the processor. And all signs point to yes, it is.
Please, follow that link to BadAndy's posts and read them. There is somebody who works with G4s everyday at the hardware level. His team even looked at rolling their own DDR chip to improve their bandwidth, but after a week or two it proved to be much too expensive (they needed a custom asic, they couldn't do it with FPGAs).
I have a friend that works at AMC, and he has been able to offer some corroboration (he works mostly on XScale, but he does a little PPC). So I'm not just taking BadAndy's word for it. Troll elsewhere.
Some comments from a person who just bought a new Mac:
1. Since the subject of developer tools has come up, I should mention that although the Developer Tools were not preinstalled on my Power Mac, the installer was. You can be running amok with code in no time. I don't know if the installer comes with the other product lines, but as has been pointed out, you can always download them.
2. Why I didn't wait for MacWorld: I don't know what I'm waiting for, so I don't see the point. Also, I got a $500 rebate on the computer and display. You can still get the rebate now, but if new models are unveiled, you won't be able to get it then.
3. The 17" display is gorgeous. In comparison to my 17" CRTs at work and 12" display on my iBook, it's huge. Part of that is the aspect ratio, which is 5:4 instead of 4:3. The other part of that is that it's 17" viewable. Beyond that, the picture quality is stunning. I keep stopping to stare at the fonts, which just look unreasonably sharp. If you can spring for the display, it's worth it, and the rebate helps on that front.
4. 933 MHz with 256 MB RAM has been plenty fast for me, but I may have low standards.
Matthew
Friends don't let friends Slashdot.
I recently went shopping for a new keyboard for my HP Kayak running Red Hat Linux.
I'm a old-school touch typist, so I'm really anal about keyboards.
I spend a lot of time at a CompUSA and a huge Fry's and I got a chance to play with a lot of keyboards.
Short story: Macally iKey (USB).
I know it's a "Mac" keyboard, but the key pitch, throw, and sculpting is the best out there right now.
The only improvement they could make is if they make it white. (I prefer to work in low light.) Also, a touch more "click" feedback would be nice, but all the other boards have as little or less. Macally does make a white ADB keyboard in the same case as the USB, so maybe I'll get my wish someday.
--Richard
The release version of the compiler (gcc) feels significantly slower than the equivalent version of gcc on an Intel-based Linux Box (I am running 2 or 3 year old hardware, a single-processor 400MHz tower, so it feels even slower for me whilst compiling big nasty things, but a seriously non-scientifically conducted "compile mySQL" race between my Mac and a Celeron 300 had the Mac faring rather poorly in comparison the the Celeron) This will change with Jaguar. Apple is moving to gcc 3 and has done *a lot* of optimizations to it for better PowerPC code generation and faster compiling.
Objective C is addictive (and free as in beer), it's amazing how easy it is to slap together a simple GUI app in a half hour.
I will reiterate what everyone else has said, -MORE RAM- (and don't buy it from Apple, I've had good luck with Shika and Kingston ValueRAM sticks), I have 704MB on my home machine and it's still not enough when you have 12 or 14 broswer windows open, are compiling in the background and messing with Photoshop whilst listening to MP3s and leaving any number of other apps open in the background. The entire GUI is double buffered and is an utter RAM pig, but it sure is purty and RAM is cheap.
Good Luck
Don't buy RAM from Apple; it's way overpriced (like double). A local Mac dealer will sell you RAM for a fair price. You can probably get a better price from other (non-Mac) dealers, but you have to pay attention to what you're buying, rather than saying "QuickSilver. Gimmie RAM." The stock configs come with 256 MB which is comfortable, but an extra 512 MB from a local dealer doesn't cost much if you want to add it in.
Go for megahertz!!! The baseline machines (800 MHz) do NOT have an L3 cache. This is a huge deal, because the G4s they're using only have 256 K on-chip (1:1 speed) L2 cache. That's tiny for a RISC architecture. The other G4s have 2 MB L3 caches, which is a huge gain. I remember an Apple hardware guy (I was at MWNY when the QuickSilvers were released) saying that a G4 with 2 MB of L3 cache can encode MPEG-2 entirely in cache RAM. Apple even boasts the effectiveness on their main PowerMac page.
That said, the original G4/733 (first Superdrive) had 1 MB L3 cache. The next G4/733 (QuickSilver low-end) had none. The QuickSilver may have been a lot cheaper, but a lot slower too :P
At this point, you've missed most of the promotions the Apple Store has had (cash back on G4s and discounted display bundles; Firefly hard drives for free), as they expired at the beginning of this month. You may as well wait until Macworld, and get the old stock at blow-out prices if they do announce anything new.
If you really want speed (and feel the need to geek-out), go for an Xserve. They have the fastest hardware available (such as memory design; DDR ram, whereas the current G4s only have DDR L3 caches). The downside is expandability (# of expansion cards you can shove in the box). Mount it under your desk :)
Moderators should have to take a reading comprehension test.
Whatever you do, don't get the low-end model in the G4 tower lineup. There's almost always significant differences between the low-end and mid-grade towers for a not-as-significant difference in price.
Another thing to keep in mind that hasn't been mentioned much here (if at all), is the hard drive. If you'll be doing a lot of disk-intensive stuff, and it sounds like you might be, consider getting the SCSI hard drives instead of the ATA. At the very least, the SCSI drives run at 10,000 rpm to the ATA's 7200.
As for my personal experience with speed and OS X and all, I have a dual 450, currently with 512MB of RAM, and OS X on a 40GB 7200rpm Maxtor hard drive. Everything runs fine for me. Well, IE likes to hang sometimes, but that's it.
(Yes, I use IE. It's more CSS compliant than anything else! At least, last time W3C checked.)
It doesn't cater to his peculiar preferences, therefore it's inherently inferior and broken. Gotta love the superiority complexes people have. Next we'll have someone whining about how the laptop keyboards don't come with Dvorak labels in addition to or instead of the "broken by design" qwerty ones.
Lots of people find E-bay as an excelent source of macs. In fact, one of e-bay's top sellers are powermac G4's! this is because macs don't devalue as fast as PC's, because they last so damn long! My friend has an orginal macintosh that's been beat to hell and though it was bought in 1984, the 18 year old mac still works great! One of my friends is a huge freebsd guy, he's an astrophysicist, and he was looking for a mac and found out that the best price/performance ratio was with the DP 800mhz G4's. Apparently there's a place or two that sells them refurbished for $2,200.. being as how I've been using one of these machines since they came out (I think I got #105 or something), I can strongly recomend them. Remember to get an nvidia in them though! ATI cards for mac are in short selection and have REALLY crappy drivers! Also I agree with the other guy who said to get aftermarket RAM. Here's what apple says about aftermarket RAM: "If you don't purchase memory directly from Apple, make sure that the RAM modules conform to the JEDEC specification. Check with your memory vendor to ensure that the RAM module supports the correct timing modes and that their Serial Presence Detect (SPD) feature has been programmed properly, as called out in the JEDEC specification. "
Latewire
check out the listings on Ebay first, there are plenty of systems there and will probably be plenty more after the expo next week. Look for a recent dual system, depending on what your needs are, the dual 450's and 500's still have audio on, the digital audio systems and later do not have this port. Also most people usualy sell these systems with a fair amount of ram, software and even sometimes a second hard drive installed.
Three quick notes: 1. I'm not sure why people are telling you to wait until MWNY to buy. It's been announced by reputible sources that there will not be new towers announced there. They will most likely be coming in August. 2. For information on the upgradability of Macs (and excellent information on Mac performance), check out xlr8yourmac.com. It's a very informative website. 3. Unless it comes with an Apple Care warranty, I wouldn't reccomend getting your computer off of eBay. Try any Mac Authorised Reseller (an excellent list has already been posted above). Apple service is very, very good, imho.
NP!