Microsoft PR Rep is the Switcher

Here's a followup to our earlier story about Microsoft's "inverse switch" campaign. The AP tracked down the switcher and spoke with her: she's an employee at a Microsoft public relations firm but says she actually did switch from Mac to Windows. Microsoft's page is still 404 (but Google's cache still works). The interesting part to me is that the AP "tracked Mallinson by examining personal data hidden within documents that Microsoft had published with its controversial ad." Hmmmmmm. (Kudos to obidonn, the first to demonstrate the use of a stock photo, which piqued interest in this story. As of noon EDT Oct. 15, other stock photos are still being used in anonymous Microsoft "testimonials.")

Comments

Google cache still works?

[Drunken Coward]

Maybe Microsoft will follow the Church of Scientology and try to get them to remove the page from their cache. They certainly have the resources to enforce any threat they could make.

Re:Google cache still works?

[timster]

Uh, this case would be Microsoft asking google to remove a _Microsoft-owned_ page from the cache, and has no correlation to the Scientology effort to remove other people's pages.

Re:Google cache still works?

[scott1853]

I think Microsoft just wants to ignore this until it goes away. Further actions that would end up in the news would not be in their best interest. By tomorrow most people will have forgotten about it, except the thousands of slashdot users that will make references to it anytime a MS article is posted for the next 2 years.

Re:Google cache still works?

[Duckz]

Wouldn't it be funny if they did ask/sue google.com for having that cache link and google responded by not caching or indexing any of microsoft.com's pages?

Re:Google cache still works?

[SpaceLifeForm]

Would anyone really miss that?
I guess I wouldn't know since everytime I search at Google, I never see anything from Microsoft.
Must be that one keyword I always use.

Re:Google cache still works?

[buck_wild]

Ignoring it must work, 'cause gee, who remembers Microsoft 'Bob'?

Re:Google cache still works?

[br0ck]

First they'll have to remove the story from their own site! It's always great when MSNBC mentions Slashdot. The story is currently number nine on the Yahoo! most viewed news page. A lot of people are going to be reading this story tomorrow.</grin>

Re:Google cache still works?

[gl4ss]

google is the only way to actually _find_ something you happen to _need_ from the microsoft.com. their own system is a b*tch and constantly changing anyways.

Re:Google cache still works?

[einhverfr]

I'd do it, but I'm originally a PC user who switched to a Mac for a couple of years loved it, upgraded to OS X, then switched back. =]

ALERT Waagner Egstrom (the company that does PR work for Microsoft): Here is someone looking for work from you! ;o)

OK. I have noticied that your comments seem to be somewhat pro-Microsoft so I am saying that in jest ;o)

But hey. what do I know-- I switched my parents to Linux in the days of Red Hat 6.1 ;)

Re:Google cache still works?

[einhverfr]

Off topic but just a reply to the parent post.

I respect your opinions but understand this--

My parents had a Windows 95 system which would break at least once a month, and my parents would need additional tech support at least another time every month. So every couple weeks, I would have to drive over to my parents' house and fix their system or help them over the phone. This was fine when I was studying for my A+ cert, but when I started going on to the MCSE and LPIC exams it became a problem.

So I built them a new computer and put RedHat 6.1 on it. I carefully placed icons on the desktop so they could get to Netscape, KMail, KPPP, and StarOffice, and gave them a 5 min. tour of GNOME. Now they are on RedHat 7.2, but are using KDE because GNOME crashed. They still call me for tech support when something actually breaks, but hey, they don't know what root is for, so that doesn't happen very often ;) In fact the last two times were due to hardware failure.

And as much as I love RH8, the homogeneity of KDE and GNOME is a bit of an issue I admit :P Looks good on paper until you think you are in one and are in the other, and there is some little tiny difference that is preventing you from getting something done...

But regarding MCSE, I still consider it to have been very helpful in my technical development (because I only used braindumps on one exam). If you study for it well, you CAN get something out of it (aside from the Network Infrastructure exam, where some of the networks look like they were designed by a 5-year old). In fact I think it is an excelent compliment to the LPIC exams (I am MCSE and LPIC-2 certified).

Good Luck!

Re:Google cache still works?

[Misch]

No! Scientology would never doctor photos to make people appear that really weren't there!

Re:Google cache still works?

[cscx]

Don't worry, the "amateur sleuths" from Slashdot are right on top of it! Get your detectives' caps and your magnifying glasses, gentlemen!

Kinda makes you feel like the Hardy Boys, doesn't it?

Re:Google cache still works?

[rjung2k]

Why did MS do something this dumb?

Because Microsoft leadership is a bunch of arrogant pricks who think that they're oh-so-brilliantly superior to the rest of the world, and thus believe they can pull a stunt like this and get away with it.

Remember the doctored MS videotape in the antitrust trial that "proved" removing IE from Windows would seriously impact its peerformance? Same thing -- Microsoft figures, "hey, you're all morons, you'll believe whatever we tell you," and they get caught with their shorts down when a thinking audience shreds their efforts.

Of course, it must work to some degree -- those Winlot zombies trolling the boards aren't being created out of thin air...

Re:Google cache still works?

[hype7]

I think Microsoft just wants to ignore this until it goes away. Further actions that would end up in the news would not be in their best interest.

Yeah, I can just see tomorrow's version of this story:
""The AP tracked down the switcher and spoke with her: she's an employee at a Microsoft public relations firm, but she says she actually did switch from Mac to Windows after MS offered her free hardware, and threatened the PR firm with loss of contract in the event she contradicted their fake story.

After threats of termination of job, and physical harm against her family, Mallison relented and agreed to corroborate the article."

-- james

Re:Google cache still works?

[Hater's Leaving, The]

So we've simply got to prove to them that you're not ignoring it to run salt into their wounds.

They do have a website feedback page, and they promise a response within 24 hours.
It's been 12 hours so far since they received this from me:
{{{
Why did you remove the "switch" testimonial?

The story about that female writer (with the unfortunate name Don Funk according to that dialog box demonstrating how easy it was for her to do things in XP) who switched from Mac to XP was most interesting, but magically disappeared when I was half-way through reading it (I was going 'back' and 'forward' in the browser, which seemed to cause the page to reload)?
}}}

If they do reply, I'll post it here, and if they don't I'll write another one, asking why they also break promises about reply times.

THL.

Re:Google cache still works?

[DJPenguin]

Actually... the Temporal Billenium Timeline Act of 2533 _does_ make time travel illegal for the purposes of copyright :)

Re:Google cache still works?

[EvilAlien]

No kidding... this is pretty clumsy of Microsoft.

What I'm wondering is if anyone put this much effort into debunking Apple's Switch ads, or if the parodies mockeries were viewed as enough?

Re:Google cache still works?

[Arcturax]

This is why Microsoft is smarter than the "Church" of $cientology.

The Co$ would find that if they ignored their detractors, they would still find just as many dumb fools to con and save a lot in legal costs.

Hell, its certainly working for M$, they ignore bad press and get fools who switch from Unix to Windows all the time.

Hoax?

[Trusty Penfold]

How do we know the Anonymous Poster isn't an employee of Linux and is just trying to discredit their biggest competitor?

Re:Hoax?

[scott1853]

Because the 13 year old script kiddie crowd wouldn't stoop that low.

Re:Hoax?

[evilviper]

Last time I check, AI wasn't integrated into the kernel. So, it's unlikely that "Linux" went out and hired someone.

Re:Hoax?

[dodobh]

Thats what Linux wants *you* to think. Take the red pill

Re:Hoax?

[evilviper]

I think you wanted to put the emphasis on 'wants'... I don't think Linux went out of it's way just so *I* wouldn't know.

Ummm.... "There is no kernel".

Good grief, where does it end?

[Lethyos]

Lies, FUD, bad software (let's not get started), breaking the law... Where does it end!?

Microsoft have so much egg on their face that this they're starting to look like that nasty chick in a cheap porno!

People still trust these assholes?

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Lumpy]

People still trust these assholes?


No they dont... but unfortunately.. most people still dont know there is something else out there.

90% of the populace still think that Microsoft Windows is the only thing out there and there is nothing else available.

which makes me think... Why doesn't redhat advertise on tv? ad space on tech TV is horribly dirt cheap, as well as almost every cable channel (USA, TNN, SCI-FI, MTV... etc...)

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[chris_mahan]

I want them to advertise on MSNBC...

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[everyplace]

Keep in mind though that people with a mind to watch Tech TV and the like already know about alternate operating systems.

I highly doubt that the average person flipping between stations is going to stop at a station about computers when there's better things on like the Home Shopping Network, TNN, or even C-SPAN 2. Too many choices!

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Dalcius]

How about a Slashdot contribution fund to set up a commercial on Sci-Fi or thirty commercials on UPN?

*snicker*

I'm actually being serious, it's get my $10.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Dalcius]

That's it!

C-SPAN! All we need to do is get the C-SPAN crowd aware of Linux and you can count on a bunch of over-zealous rioters marching on Capital Hill and the steps of Redmond within a week!

This isn't a flame, I like C-SPAN personally. =P

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[gad_zuki!]

No they dont... but unfortunately.. most people still dont know there is something else out there.

I don't know how true that is. I'm a student (again), but I still do consulting on the side and in the small to medium size business arena, at least in my experience, people just love the MS solution. They're usually already familiar with Outlook and Office and are ready to pay for a few Dells and an 2K server or two running Exchange and MS SQL.

Frankly, the last thing I'm going to do is try to push an OSS solution for a small LAN when their primary needs are Outlook-like shared calendering, Office, and a few of the gazillion MS-only apps out there.

Some of these people are pretty shrewd. They might have both an Apple and a PC at home. They might even know what linux is, but they also know their needs, prefer MS products, and don't mind paying. If a client wants MS and wants to pay for it, its fine and with the proper administration (proper permissions, quick to patch, antivirus scanning and attachment blocking on the email server, etc) it can be just as secure as anything else in corporate America.

The question that geeks are expecting business to ask is, "How cheaply can we do this by using a no-name product?" Lets face it, linux has no brand, its more of a movement than a product. This is like assuming that cab companies are going to migrate over to the Kia Spectra (its a nice car at a nice price with a nice warranty) to save money. They're going to stick with the Caprice or Crown Victoria workhorse even if it costs a premium and if they continue to believe its worth it. Considering all their mechanics know the Crown Vic and the Caprice inside out and their drivers and customers expect a large American car, I doubt Kia will be getting any cab contracts anytime soon.

Of course things change drastically when you're dealing with larger medium sized companies and large companies, but most of these companies start small or small-ish and if BillG is already in the door they will be very skittish about kicking him out too soon.

Don't get me wrong, I would love it if a client wanted to do something from the ground up as cheap as possible and using OSS. A Moz/OpenOffice solution running on Mandrake would really be nice, but no one wants to jump into that pool unless they have to. In the meantime, unless price becomes a major factor then business will continue using MS. Its no wonder that Linux has more potential for market penetration in academia, the public sector, and in embedded devices. MS has the office environment locked and many end-users wouldn't have it any other way.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Why doesn't redhat advertise on tv? ad space on tech TV is horribly dirt cheap, as well as almost every cable channel (USA, TNN, SCI-FI, MTV... etc...)"

Okay, I know I'm not going to be in the popular view here, but it's gotta be said: Redhat cannot do everything that Windows does.

Do this: Go buy any old digital camera and try to download the pics on a RedHat system.

Go buy a DVD-R and try to burn a disc.

Go to any old website showing media (RealPlayer, QuickTime, Windows Media) and see how successful you are at viewing content.

Buy a Firewire DV Video Camera and see how successful you are in getting the video off and editing it.

Try to visit a site that's made for IE.

Go to the store and buy a game.

Buy a PDA and get it to synch up.

Your network card doesn't work, find somebody you know willing to come over and fix it.

A good chunk of these problems have been solved on Linux, and if you're willing to do some insane bs to get them running, you're fine. The steps to do any of the above in Windows are very easy, especially in comparison to Linux.

Some of these challenges are a result of MS's monopoly + it's just plain a de-facto standard. Despite popular belief, there is some good for this. You can't go wrong with having a Windows machine. You're compatible with the internet, and you're compatible with nearly every game and piece of hardware available for PC's.

The problem isn't that people are unaware of it, the problem is that Windows does the best job of being friendly to the user. Sure Linux has technical superiorities in some ways, that alone does not make a good OS.

For that 90% of the people you mentioned, Windows is by far the best choice for them. Linux is a distant 3rd with OSX in 2nd place.

If you want a simple internet machine, Linux does a wonderful job for that. But the moment you start getting peripherals involved, Linux has a huge uphill battle. It just doesn't make sense for that 90 percentile to run Linux today.

You know what though? That can't be true forever. I do feel that Linux can overtake Windows. The first step is to get millions of people running the OS. That's slowly but surely starting to happen. Every time MS makes a misstep (like their SP 3 licensing BS), Linux has an opportunity to make an inroads. When a DVD-Burner manufacturer is swamped with "Uhh where's the Linux Drivers?" questions, they'll eventually realize "oh.. people use Linux too, we should support it...." When that starts to happen, Linux then can become a viable alternative to Windows.

MS didn't get big by bullying people around, it got big because it made computers into something average people can make really good use of. That is why people are buying Windows machines, it's not because they're unaware of Linux's existence. Today, it is not ready.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"No, they made money because they saw that Apple made computers easy for people to use, and then they copied it."

And then, spontaneously people just started buying it.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"For some reason, people always conveniently forget that part."

When did I say that Microsoft invented the GUI? It's not a matter of 'conveniently forgetting', it's a matter of relevance.

MS made a useful product, grow up and accept that. Usability ways, they're lightyears ahead of Linux.

Funny thing is, if Mac hadn't been so anal about running on Mac hardware, OSX might be a contender for the OS crown. Linux definitely would not be.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of these challenges are a result of MS's monopoly + it's just plain a de-facto standard.

Some? Huh? I'm sorry, but almost all--ALL--of the examples you listed are examples of cases where a third party supports Windows because it is the de facto standard.

If MS didn't have their monopoly, and weren't a de facto standard, those companies would be supporting other systems as well, or better yet, SOME STANDARD that can be applied across systems.

Despite popular belief, there is some good for this.

I can't believe this--the benevolent monopoly is a ridiculous argument. There is no good in monopoly. There is good in standards, but that is different from a monopoly. The argument of standards through monopoly is an argument for laziness and complacency.

You're compatible with the internet

Fucking right--MS should be compatible with the internet. That's because, at least so far, the internet is largely based on open protocols that anyone can use.

MS didn't get big by bullying people around, it got big because it made computers into something average people can make really good use of.

I'm sorry, but this is too much. MS DID get big by bullying people around--thus their conviction on antitrust charges.

The argument about usablity for the average person is a joke. If that were all that were driving things, we'd all be using Apples.

Look, I'm not going to say that MS doesn't do some things well. I still maintain that their office suite is probably the best around, and has been for some time.

Linux does have its problems. But Linux having problems in no way justifies MS. The fact that Linux isn't the best at all things doesn't mean that I would choose MS if MS weren't a monopoly.

I am flabbergasted when I see individuals who fail to see certain things:

(1) MS is a convicted monopoly. This means they coerced themselves into the marketplace. This is something that would be apparent to many even if MS weren't convicted.

(2) Being a monopoly is wrong for any number of reasons: it means the monopoly has an unfair advantage with regard to a cash safety reserve, time to screw up and then try and try again until you get it right, customer "choice", and any number of other things.

The bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that I don't know whether or not MS does make the best product, because there was never any chance for real competition. The truth is, the way things are, WE WILL NEVER TRULY KNOW if MS was the best available.

I think it's time we all stepped back and really took a look at what's going on: MS's only competition is from a bunch of people who are developing systems in their spare time and, through copyright, made it impossible for MS to do anything but really compete.

And MS has had competition? Fucking ridiculous. It's going up against fucking activists. Linux is a fucking activist OS that is being used because there's no way to get anything any other way.

Cripes--the whole GPL might as well say "By the way: MS, and any other corporation that wants to take away my freedom, fuck off. I made this thing myself. It's mine. I say everyone can use it, not just you. Go fuck your monopolistic self."

Do you really think we would have the GPL if it weren't for MS? The fact the GPL EXISTS is a testament to the problems with MS and Windows.

MS has had competition? It's like saying that a dictator was elected because there are rebels banging on the door that the people could conceivably support if the dictator's guards weren't doing everything possible to kill the rebels in the first place.

Damn, I'm mad about this. I have to go do something else now.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[intermodal]

MS didn't get big by bullying people around, it got big because it made computers into something average people can make really good use of. That is why people are buying Windows machines, it's not because they're unaware of Linux's existence. Today, it is not ready.

Sorry, I'm afraid you contradict yourself in that statement. Microsoft bullied its way into the position int the beginning of GUI clones with Win95. Recall the version that was used as an example running win95 ontop of DRdos? Microsoft clawed its way deeper into the pit of monopoly that it calls home, and as a result hardware manufacturers can't find it profittable to make linux versions of their software when such a small percecntage of the people use linux compared to windows. So don't go resting on microsoft's laurels...they're fraught with lawyers and thorns from the past. The difference is that now they own the thorns they haven't destroyed, except for linux and apple. people could do the same things Windows can do for quite a while before Windows on a mac. (note: i am not a mac user)

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[evilviper]

it can be just as secure as anything else in corporate America.

You've got to be absolutely kidding. I was with you up to that point, but nobody with an ounce of sense believes that for a second.

Even "Microsoft VP Jim Allchin [...] stated, under oath, that there were flaws in Windows so great that they would threaten national security if the Windows source code were to be disclosed." (http://security.tombom.co.uk/shatter.html)

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[stinky wizzleteats]

First of all, with Rh8, almost all of the examples you mentioned are not only possible in Linux, but quite simple. The print driver for my HP photosmart 1215 does not hang the machine like the windows version does, just to cite one example.

Second of all, if you think MS has won because of ease of use, you've already bought into the propganda. Ever since MSDOS was ripped off of CP/M, Microsoft has consistently been technically inferior to all of its competitors. From the GUI to groupware, every one of Microsoft's product efforts has been a poor copy of someone else's work. If you call Windows the easy to use solution, you have to say that BSODs and the regular cycle of format and reinstall are easy.

I was a CNE in a past life, and I saw first hand how MS got their market share. They send a representative to the CTO, and suggest that a license audit of all their windows workstations might be less difficult than converting their servers to NT. If this fails, they bribe the CIO/CEO, or engage in character assasination. Poof. Instant market share. The company's history is a prime example of bully tactics and practiced world domination.

You can argue this if you want to, but you would be opposing observation with opinion. I know. I was there.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Dalcius]

Too... lazy.. to... link...

IIRC, they licensed the ability to view Xerox code and designs for their GUI, but they had already had a GUI project underway and they didn't rip source.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Dalcius]

I won't take this point by point, but I will give general commentary. Please correct me if I read something wrong.

1) Microsoft gained some of their position through monopoly. This would include the browser, etc. IIRC, they did put in incompatibilities with other systems in the early days of Windows (read: 90-95), but I wouldn't say they were big enough to be called a monopoly -- Apple had a good chunk of the market until the AOLers (read: typical users) came onto the scene.

2) Microsoft isn't *all* bad. Forced standards are at least standards. They suck, but it's better than outright chaos, at least in the short term.

3) Settle down, Jimmy! I completely agree with most of what you posted. I'm a Microsoft and tech history buff, and what you speak is true for the most part. However, Microsoft is not as evil as certain other corporations (pharmaceuticals, maybe?). They're very, very stupid (read: the article this thread is in reply to), and they'll lie and cheat to sell their mother's eyes. And it boggles my mind. But it's not the end of the world, OSS will eventually win out. Why? Because it's a small niche right now and it can actually compete. But that's another thread...

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[po8]

Go buy any old digital camera and try to download the pics on a RedHat system. Do it every day, works fine.

Go buy a DVD-R and try to burn a disc. Can't afford a DVD-R, but I'll bet it works great. I know every CD burner I ever tried does.

Go to any old website showing media (RealPlayer, QuickTime, Windows Media) and see how successful you are at viewing content. View RealPlayer and Windows Media regularly. Can do any kind of QuickTime except Sorenson, and could do that with either Crossover Plugin or a pirate solution if I actually cared.

Buy a Firewire DV Video Camera and see how successful you are in getting the video off and editing it. Hey, how rich do you think I am? But I have software that claims to do this job fine, and I have no reason to disbelieve it.

Try to visit a site that's made for IE. I can think of one site I've visited in the last 6 months that I needed IE to view. I can think of far more that could only be viewed with Mozilla, actually. Pop-ups, you know.

Go to the store and buy a game. Did it yesterday. They sell Linux games at Fry's now, you know.

Buy a PDA and get it to synch up. I've never synced with anything but my Linux box.

Your network card doesn't work, find somebody you know willing to come over and fix it. OK, you've got me there. All my network cards have worked :-). But seriously, I've helped a bunch of my friends with card problems under Linux: they don't seem any worse than with Windows to me. At least they don't ship outdated broken driver CDs for Linux: saves being suckered into installing them.

Overall, I think you've made a pretty good case that Linux is ready for the consumer.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[mcrbids]

You know what though? That can't be true forever. I do feel that Linux can overtake Windows. The first step is to get millions of people running the OS. That's slowly but surely starting to happen.

It's starting to happen. Just tonight, I was exchanging a faulty printer at the local Walmart. The gal behind the counter said that there'd been alot of printers coming back. I asked her why, and she said something like "They didn't have a Linux, or something like that".

She had no idea what they were talking about, so I explained it to her a bit - that Linux is sort of like another "Windows", like Mac, only it works on normal PCs. She nodded blankly, pushed the barcode gun, and handed me my receipt.

Maybe you don't remember the days when Apple "had the desktop" and PCs were "Hard to use" and "good for business and serious number crunching".

Maybe you don't see the parallels here, but I sure do. Linux is "hard to use" but "good for business and serious number crunching".

As I see it, Linux won't go bankrupt, won't just "go away" and gets better and better every year. Word of mouth is increasing, and people will make "free" work for them, eventually.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[dbirchall]

"I still do consulting on the side and in the small to medium size business arena, at least in my experience, people just love the MS solution. They're usually already familiar with Outlook and Office and are ready to pay for a few Dells and an 2K server or two running Exchange and MS SQL."

I do consulting too, in roughly the same segment. (Don't worry, we live in different towns. ;)

In my experience, that's not love you're seeing; it's resignation. I have yet to meet any end-user who is passionate about Microsoft applications. People just don't go on about how great those things are. They're commodities.

And the unlucky "in house" folks who really aren't qualified to fix stuff (read: can't tell a SCSI card from a parallel port card) yet get asked to do it anyway are definitely no fans of Microsoft. I enjoy nodding sagely at cluebies ranting about how if they turn their PC off, disconnect and reconnect the monitor, and boot back up, it gives them some sort of message about wanting a Windows disk...

Do they upgrade? Sure! Not because there's some great new feature or capability, but because they keep hoping that maybe this time, unlike last time and the time before it, things will suck less.

"Good grief, where does it end?" indeed!

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[electroniceric]

Well spoken! You've put your finger on something I've been trying to explain here for a long time. And in fact Microsoft prices their products at exactly such a price point as to keep them from being expensive in the individual. My most recent experience with this was when I looked at using MySQL vs MS SQL server. Since this place is already Windows shop, the cost for MSSQL would have been $2000 + CALS or something like that, with minimal training costs. The $2K or so they'd save by installing MySQl (even on Windows) is just not enough for them to bother with. If it was $10K, then more eyebrows would be raised. But it's not. And I do believe MS on this part of their TCO claims: it's cheaper to stay with MS than to switch. As to whether it's cheaper if you start with MS vs. Sun vs. OSS, I'd bet it's a pretty mixed bag.

In the aggregate, however, MS products can get expensive, often based on the way they're bundled. Building an Access database is cheap and fast, until you have to buy Office pro for 20 members of your staff, 3 times in 8 years. And there are many situations where you need just one little bit of functionality contained in some other product, and then off you go again. This is where Open Source starts to pay off. Want your dev to do something semi-custom (a la Access)? The dev has his/her choice of 50000 libraries, all of which cost $0 as long as you're willing to accept the terms of OSS, so you can cobble together little bits from each of them without any incremental cost. All that's needed is some clever packaging of those bits so that they can be glued together quickly. Mozilla has a decent chance of doing just this.

Another place where dealing with MS gets particularly onerous is dealing with licenses. Even in the place I worked, where everyone was just fine with Microsoft because it let them not think too much about IT, people resented having to waste time screwing around with licenses.

Overall, I think your predictions for where you'll see Linux penetrate are pretty spot on, though I think once these public sector OSS projects start showing fruit, some slick boxed OSS solutions for smaller businesses will not be that far off, which will stir up the mix a bit.

We live in interesting times...

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[rjw57]

> Do this: Go buy any old digital camera and
> try to download the pics on a RedHat system. /me opens konqueror using gphoto2, pictures appear (along with nice thumbnails). Drag and drop to folder on my HD.

> Go buy a DVD-R and try to burn a disc.

check. No problems here.

> Go to any old website showing media
> (RealPlayer, QuickTime, Windows Media) and
> see how successful you are at viewing content.

I can listen to the BBC radio programs via RealPlayer, watch trailers from apple.com and even view embedded WM[VA] files -- the crossover plugin rocks.

> Buy a Firewire DV Video Camera and see how
> successful you are in getting the video off
> and editing it.

Er... plug-in, record via cinerella, edit.

> Try to visit a site that's made for IE. /me types http://www.microsoft.com into Mozilla ... all works here.

> Go to the store and buy a game. /me looks at his shiny new Quake III and UT 2003 boxes -- oh and I'll be getting NWN soon.

> Buy a PDA and get it to synch up.

Heck, I can even FTP to my Zaurus. I can sync my g/f's Handsprint Treo too.

> Your network card doesn't work, find somebody
> you know willing to come over and fix it.

I've never had a network card that wont work (and I've had many network cards). Besides all the cards I've ever bought in the last two years have had Linux modules on the floppy that comes with it.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[nathanh]

MS didn't get big by bullying people around, it got big because it made computers into something average people can make really good use of.

You might not have noticed this recent court case where some smart judges decided that you're wrong. Microsoft got big by bullying people around. It's no secret.

That is why people are buying Windows machines, it's not because they're unaware of Linux's existence. Today, it is not ready.

I agree Linux isn't ready, but GEOS and OS/2 and DRDOS and MacOS and BeOS were ready and they still didn't survive. They aren't around anymore because Microsoft played dirty. End of story.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Arker]

Gah, calm down, take a breath.

And, btw, the GPL doesn't have anything to do with Microsoft. Microsoft was a two-bit outfit that made software for toys when GNU started - the big bad evil monopolist of the time was SUN.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Lumpy]

Do this: Go buy any old digital camera and try to download the pics on a RedHat system.

DID IT... KODAK DC120

Go buy a DVD-R and try to burn a disc.

Do IT EVERY DAY.

Go to any old website showing media (RealPlayer, QuickTime, Windows Media) and see how successful you are at viewing content.

Ok you GOT ME THERE.

Buy a Firewire DV Video Camera and see how successful you are in getting the video off and editing it.

DO IT EVERY DAY. Texas instruments firewire card and a JVC camera. now EDIT that video... there's where linux dies. nothing remotely useable yet.

Try to visit a site that's made for IE.

DO IT EVERY DAY... My Banking sites. I use mozilla that lies to the server.

Go to the store and buy a game.

I've got 5 on my shelf from the EB store. play them regularly.

Buy a PDA and get it to synch up.

I have 2! PALM PILOT and a Windows CE device... the WinCE device can synch.. but not to evolution... yet... the palm OS devices can synch to evolution or 10 other groupware programs for linux.

Your network card doesn't work, find somebody you know willing to come over and fix it.

I have yet to find a network card that isnt detected by redhat automatically. please tell me a chipset that doesn;t work.

the whole point here is simple... microsoft windows does this same things you say here.. I fought for 2 weeks to get a Windows CE PDA to reliabily synch with a W2K workstation.. I had to download a 3rd party patch (NOT MICROSOFT) to get it to reliably talk every time the user drops it in the cradle. (BTW: corperate now forbids any PDA other than a Palm Os device to be connected to corperate PC's. due to the poor design of the windows CE and pocket windows connectivity software.. Palm just works, every time. and we can support it easily over the phone.)

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[thing12]

Postulate: If you build a system that any idiot can use, only an idiot will want to use it.

I'd have to disagree. First off Windows is not that easy that an idiot can use it. Try putting a person who's never touched a computer in front of Windows or X Windows(running KDE/Gnome/etc). Either one would take time and patience - but the X Windows solution would take *more* time and patience to get to the same level of comfort with the operating system and say for example a browser and office suite. And it's not because people are idiots. 90% of what you do with a computer is auto-pilot. You probably don't think about using the mouse, typing, scrolling a window --- completely basic operations of a GUI interface that you don't ever think about. All you think about is the result you want, not how to accomplish it. With X Windows and the various window managers and gui toolkits you end up with a vast array of applications that all behave differently. Some are so different they actually require thinking about just how to use the interface itself.

Microsoft and Apple have spent billions developing a user interface that is clean, consistent, and easy to use. And unless OSS clones those interfaces down to the pixel - or spends the billions themselves - the interfaces are going to continue to suck. And that doesn't even count all the applications that need to be altered just to get a semblance of order. A standard user interface is a good thing! It helps a user immediately sit down with a new app and be as productive as possible. If you not only have to learn a new application but also a new interface you're going to be slowed down.

Anyway... my point is that anyone can use Windows, MacOS, or X Windows with enough time and practice. But, at least with Windows and MacOS you have a head start as soon as you learn the interface.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[arkanes]

Call for help is crap, but the Screen Savers is rather more upscale, often mentions Linux (although it's Windows focused), and has hot babes to boot.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Anonvmous Coward]

here's what I read:

"Oversimplify, oversimplify, oversimplify, end of story."

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Anonvmous Coward]

Yeah, real scientific.

"I visited one site, and it works."

"I bought 1 (one) game."

"I can synch up my linux based zaurus."

Hardly devastating.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[evilviper]

Why don't you check my source for that quote...

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[MaxVlast]

Take a guess at how expensive West Wing ads are.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Defend your positions. You look like a fool."

Why? Who (besides you, and yes I know you posted the other comment too) is even paying attention?

I don't care if I look like a fool or not. If I'm a fool, then RedHat's in a better position than I thought and maybe I can finally switch.

Re: Good grief, where does it end?

[pjrc]

Do you really think we would have the GPL if it weren't for MS? The fact the GPL EXISTS is a testament to the problems with MS and Windows.

Hell YES, since the GPL was written in the mid 80's, before Windows existed, before Microsoft was a monopoly, and in fact, before PC computers had displaced Apple 2's, C-64's, Amiga, etc, and even before the majority of PCs ran MS-DOS instead of IBM's PC-DOS.

IBM was a giant then, and Microsoft was tiny.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[nathanh]

"Oversimplify, oversimplify, oversimplify, end of story."

My point was best made concisely but it was difficult to reduce the history of Microsoft into less than 50 words, so I didn't bother. If you're still unconvinced then here's the long version.

Microsoft has played dirty with all of the competition I listed. For example:

• BeOS: vendors pressured into not selling BeOS in competition with Windows.
• DRDOS: Microsoft applications rewritten to detect DRDOS and give false error messages.
• OS/2: Microsoft lied to IBM over the purpose of Windows and reneged on agreements.

Those are just the confirmed and indisputable nasties. There are plenty of vicious rumors about other nasties they've pulled.

Now you could argue that there were multiple contributing reasons why each OS failed. I would not disagree. That doesn't invalidate my point which is that Microsoft got where they are with illegal and dishonest behaviour. The judges came to the same conclusion. However the judges had to write over 170 pages of text to say that without "oversimplifying". It's silly for you to expect the same level of detail from a throwaway comment on slashdot. My best guess it that you just want to discount anybody who disagrees with you, and you'll use any excuse to do it.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Anonvmous Coward]

" My best guess it that you just want to discount anybody who disagrees with you, and you'll use any excuse to do it."

You're close. I'm going to discount anybody who's view who turns a convo about MS into a "MS SHOULD BURN IN HELL!" debate. You're worried I won't listen to you because you disagree. I'm worried you won't even hear my PoV because *I* disagree with the common view. *I* am the one with the uphill battle. *I* have to fight against everybody's emotions against MS just to make my point. All you have to do is say "MS is absolutely evil, end of story!" and you'll get cheered. Funny thing is, I'm not pro MS. I'm not trying to convince you that MS is great and we should all be grateful. I only wish to convince people that they cannot act like childish brats over topics that involve MS. Not only is lotsa FUD getting spread around, but they don't realize that their behaviour will discredit them. Is the DoJ going to take Slashdot seriously regarding a complaint about MS? "Oh please, you all hate MS anyway, we can't get a reasonable response from you." Treat them more rationally, and not only will people believe you when you have a legit complaint, but you'll also know what to do right. (as opposed to only being aware of what's wrong.)

So here's my side of it, take it or leave it:

You need to understand that even with all of the bs MS did to mess with the competition, they still had a product ppl wanted.

MS may have lined their pockets with more money, but there's still the question of "Where did MS's money come from?".

Most extremist theories I hear are like this:

1.) MS gets their OS Sold with machines
2.) MS supresses competitors from selling competing OS's
3.) ????
4.) Profit!

Notice that little gap there? They seem to think that MS can just magically extort money from people's pockets. They don't seem to understand that MS's monopoly, though definitely a monopoly, was not the same type of monopoly the Bells had. Few people needed to have a computer when MS started to get really big. They certainly didn't necessarily need a Windows machine. In the phone company example, you *had* to have a phone. You *had* to pay money somewhere. MS may have been able to surpress competitors, but there was little they could do to convince outlets to say "don't sell Macs".

There was a huge boom in PC's sold starting circa 1995... which, conincidentally, is when Windows 95 was released. There were all kinds of problems with Windows 95, stability in particular. Yet, people didn't exactly flock to Mac did they? Macs were available and proven long before 95 was released, and were arguably better machines in most respects, yet they flocked to PC's anyway. With lots of money, you can overpower your competitors, but you cannot force somebody to buy your product. An explosion of people said "I want a Windows based computer." (Hint: Mac should have advertised more.)

If MS hadn't bullied other companies, there may actually be a competitor around. I doubt that, though. I certainly doubt that they would be a signficant competitor. Look at Mac, they arguably have superior systems and UI's to Windows, yet they've hardly got a percentage of the market. Think about the mountain they'd have to climb. First they'd have to develop a reasonable UI, not an easy task. Even today, there isn't a UI near as good as Apple's or MS's. KDE and Gnome inch their way closer every release, but there's still a lot to be desired. It's functional, but not complete. Second, driver support. Windows has a huuuuuuuuuge set of built-in drivers. Linux is at the point now where it will more or less run on any machine initially, but it only recently got to that point. Heck, I remember trying to get Redhat 6 running on my laptop. Despite having a 'supported video card', it insisted on running at 640 by 480 anyway. Ive heard a number of other stories about vid cards and other various hardware failing to run. Heck, even on Redhat 7.3 I couldn't get sound to work in KDE. Third, there needs to be a set of apps ready to run on this OS so the user can get to work. That is a HUGE development effort and few companies are up to the task. MS did it, Apple did it, and Linux did it thanks to the large community developing apps for it. The only company that immediately comes to mind that could handle a chore like that is IBM. (I'd say Sun, but I honestly am not that familiar with them.)

I am no fan of MS. They've pulled stuff that's personally made my life harder (particularly involving IE) and hurt my company. However, I'm going to maintain level-headedness when discussing their existence. I firmly believe that MS would be nearly as big as they are today if they didn't pull their monopolistic practices. They created the right product at the right time, and they continue to support their products in exciting ways. They would be a virtual monopoly either way. If they got that big, even legitimately, it would be nearly impossible for somebody else to swoop in and make a huge dent in the marketplace.

Heck, right now I'm running Windows 2000. My machine is relatively complex for a desktop PC. It has 5 hard drives (4 scsi, 1 firewire), dual processors, dual monitors, gig of RAM, a CDRW,a DVD RAM drive, and a few other odds and ends. I run mission critical apps on my machine. I do 3D Rendering. I cannot afford to have my machine crash in the middle of a weekend render. It never has. It was easy to install, it was easy to install new hardware and get it running. I have not had any OS related problems in months. My laptop runs Win2k, it performs admirably. My desktop at home, similiarly equipped but only one processor works just as well. My company adopted Windows 2000 and is not regretting it. Everybody here has similar experience with it performing well. It is definitely a product worth buying. I don't like MS, but they solved my mission critical problem. I could have gone to Linux, I could have gone to Mac, but Win2k was the best choice here. There's no monopoly leveraging in that decision.

As I've said before, at some point MS had to make a good product to get where they are. Like it or hate it, it's hard to dispute. If you'd like to educate me on some of their practices, I'm all ears. But don't expect me to listen to "MS only got big by gouging people" crap. If you want to have a less heated and more objective discussion about it, I'm all ears. I may even admit that I'm wrong. Just don't put me in an defensive mode. (Hey at least Im honest about it.)

Btw, if you've read this far, I really appreciate it. I may disagree with you but at least you listened. And for that, I say thank you, and I respect you for that.

Good day.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[gad_zuki!]

No, I'm not kidding. If you think the average network in corporate America is more secure than a well administered NT/2k based network then I have to disagree based on my experience.

Of course it doesn't help matters that most of c.America is NT/2k based, but its fairly obvious that a poorly administered network determines how secure it is regardless of platform.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[nathanh]

Btw, if you've read this far, I really appreciate it. I may disagree with you but at least you listened. And for that, I say thank you, and I respect you for that.

I did read it all but I don't agree with it. Microsoft didn't play fair so there's no way of knowing if their products won because people wanted them. Nobody had the choice. There was never a chance to find out.

What we do know is that Microsoft killed competitors with dirty tricks and illegal behaviour. That's not conjecture. It's not hypothesis. It's established fact!

You might claim that I'm speaking "crap" and being a "childish brat" and spreading "FUD". But I've just got to point at the court records to justify my opinion. What do you have to justify yours? That you think Windows 2000 is the "best choice"? Colour me unimpressed. It's easy to be the best when you've killed all your competition.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[evilviper]

An updated Windows box is more secure against script kiddies than a machine that isn't updated, but that's about it. Although, if you have a decent system adinistrator, several methods of sandboxing can make a Unix box with known exploits impervious to attack... but a good sys admin is very rare, and a company that is security consciois is rare as well.

most of c.America is NT/2k based
If you mean workstations. fine... If you are talking about servers, I'd say you haven't been around.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Anonvmous Coward]

Thank you for reading my post.

"What do you have to justify yours?"

How about the fact that Linux, being a collaborative effort, cannot be shut down by any action MS takes. Despite that, Windows is still far ahead of Linux in terms of the end-user experience. MS and Apple are both innovative when they release a new OS. Arguably, OSX to OS9 was a huge change, as is Win2k to Windows XP. (The overall value of the changes is subjective..) Meanwhile, Linux is still playing catchup. It's clear that the UI is the weakest link for Linux. Linux has had what.. nearly 10 years to grow, and it's still lacking a modern UI. If it's that hard to solve that problem, it would appear that MS did do something radical with the introduction of Win95, and later on to 98 and so forth.

Microsoft marketed the hell out of Windows 95. Even old Dilbert cartoons reflect that. Nothing illegal about that. I remember more Amiga commercials than I do Mac commercials. That's pretty sad. It is not wrong for Microsoft to advertise. That can make a huge difference. "Hey, buy a computer at Gateway, and you'll be cruising the web."

You should also consider that anybody carrying MS products would have to agree to it in the first place. MS didn't suddenly conjure up billions of dollars and go telling people what to sell and what not to sell.

I fully concede that MS was a monopoly. I never denied) that MS did shitty stuff. But you're going to have a hard time convincing me that sliminess alone made the what they are today. There's just too much to all the Windows OS's that show that lots of design-work went into it that never made it to other OS's. Their code's not so good for it, but at least thought went into it. Turn a computer into something useful (like Windows 95 did) and suddenly you have a hot product. Even iMacs became popular for that.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[nathanh]

But you're going to have a hard time convincing me that sliminess alone made the what they are today.

And you'll have a long time waiting for me to do this, because I never claimed it, and I never will. You're not the only person that understands that there is never a single reason for anything. I even spelt this out in a previous post I wrote in this thread. But this is irrelevant because I only argued against this specific claim of yours:

... Microsoft didn't get powerful by bullying.

I pointed out that the courts disagreed with you. You took 3 posts to complain about how I'm completely wrong and unfair but you still can't see the blindingly obvious. You even say

I never denied) that MS did shitty stuff.

You wax on about other positive benefits of Microsoft software - most of them benefits from monopoly power - but you can't seem to make the connection that their "shitty stuff" and their success are entwined. I couldn't care less about the benefits that you perceive - those are just your opinions and not everybody will share your views - but it's a fact, established by the judiciary, that Microsoft's success is due to "bullying". I don't understand why you continue to deny it.

Re:Good grief, where does it end?

[Anonvmous Coward]

No, it's a 'fact' that MS did bully the other companies. You cannot prove that if MS hadn't done the monopolostic stuff that they wouldn't be near as powerful as they are today. The problem is that there isn't anybody on the horizon that could have created a competing product. Linux alone is proof that it's a humungous task and few companies are up to it.

MS got big because it had the right product at the right time. You can squash the competition, but you cannot magically force people to buy Windows machines.

And this is helpful how?

[403Forbidden]

All this info found will be of no use unless it can surface to mainstream media.

I doubt any national TV stations other than TechTV read slashdot, this can be seen pretty obviously. Time Magazine just published an article on the music companies using glue to seal in unrelased songs for publications to read... I was in awe because it finally made mainstream about a month after it was on Slashdot!

Excuse my rant, but it seems that Microsoft has done a pretty good job tucking this firmly under the proverbial carpet and I really doubt it will see the light of day again...

Re:And this is helpful how?

[Crispin Cowan]

I doubt any national TV stations other than TechTV read slashdot,...

I was just watching CNN Headline News on TV, and the woman reading the story on the guy busted for pirating AotC actually quoted and attributed the Slashdot story.

Crispin
----
Crispin Cowan, Ph.D.
Chief Scientist, WireX Communications, Inc.
Immunix: Security Hardened Linux Distribution
Available for purchase

Re:And this is helpful how?

[chris_mahan]

except of course that it's at scripting.com and that dave is widely read by media types. Heck, even the new york times (don't they have a baseball game to cover--go Angels) did a blurb on /. recently...

Re:And this is helpful how?

[selan]

Funny you mention that on the same day that the New York Times does an article about Slashdot. Gotta admit, /. is becoming more mainstream everyday.

Re:And this is helpful how?

[Dalcius]

Move over folks. The demons from Hell need to share the bathroom, it's getting a bit too cold down there.

Re:And this is helpful how?

[jeffy124]

The AP article actually attributed slashdot for finding the stock photo of the person.

This story is the type of stuff Consumer Reports Magazine publishes in their "Selling It" column. Things like the same person in the exact same pose promoting two completely different products, with different names of themselves. Or (I like this better) the company that advertised the same thing in two different magazines about a few months apart with "Steve Johnson Uses X", but two different people were "Steve Johnson." I liked the CR headling the best - "Would the real Steve Johnson please stand up?"

CR would be in best position to publish this if MS published this as an ad in a magazine or newspaper, as they typically stick to glorifying published ads or physical products.

Re:And this is helpful how?

[scott1853]

Why did she mention /.? Wired had it posted hours earlier. I'm sure it just a rueters or AP article anyway. It's not like /. actually broke the story.

Re:And this is helpful how?

[cpt kangarooski]

Actually, the NY Times just ran an article about Slashdot itself today. They're no TV station, but they are pretty mainstream.

Re:And this is helpful how?

[Aldurn]

I want that job!
Boss: Johnson! What are you doing?
Jonhson: Reading Slashdot, sir!
Boss: Good! I want your report on it by 5:00 tonight. And for the love of god, stop trolling those newbies!

Re:And this is helpful how?

[Crispin Cowan]

I guess because the CNN editors thought the line "Apparently, Jedi mind tricks didn't work" was cute enought to put on the air, and the AP article helpfully pointed to /.

Crispin
----
Crispin Cowan, Ph.D.
Chief Scientist, WireX Communications, Inc.
Immunix: Security Hardened Linux Distribution
Available for purchase

Misdirected marketing on both parts...

[httpamphibio.us]

I fail to see how is EASIER than any other OS. A basic install of any operating system on any decent set of hardware is going to be equally easy to use. I use two Apple iBook's for music, not because I think the hardware is superior, but because my software isn't available for Windows yet. Most people that use Apple computers don't use them for what they are best at (multimedia, audio, video, etc) so they've basically spent anywhere from $500-$1500 more than a better equipped PC for absolutely no reason, they aren't benefitting from "ease of use," they aren't benefitting from the power.

And getting people to switch from their Mac to Windows? Why even spend money on that effort? Windows machines may have been more difficult to use 15 years ago, but they've caught up... anyone who still thinks they are more difficult to use hasn't tried one.

In my experience as the "computer guy" in my circle of friends I find that 95% of their problems come from using crappy software (and stuff that installs spyware) or using crappy hardware (e-machines).

If you can't figure out the "start" button good luck trying to interface with OSX... (how is clicking start -> programs -> microsoft word harder than clicking Macintosh HD then searching around for your software? hm...)

Re:Misdirected marketing on both parts...

[bnenning]

Most people that use Apple computers don't use them for what they are best at (multimedia, audio, video, etc) so they've basically spent anywhere from $500-$1500 more than a better equipped PC for absolutely no reason, they aren't benefitting from "ease of use," they aren't benefitting from the power.

The combination of Unix with a great UI and mainstream applications can be a benefit to just about everyone. If you don't think it's worth the cost, that's fine, but don't try to claim there's "absolutely no reason".

(how is clicking start -> programs -> microsoft word harder than clicking Macintosh HD then searching around for your software? hm...)

It probably isn't. On the other hand, you can "uninstall" an app by dragging it to the trash, without worrying about what DLLs will remain strewn about. And you can copy an app from one Mac to another by dragging and dropping (or "cp -r" if you like), rather than hunting for the install CD.

Re:Misdirected marketing on both parts...

[namespan]

Windows machines may have been more difficult to use 15 years ago, but they've caught up... anyone who still thinks they are more difficult to use hasn't tried one.

It's not that XP is hard to use.. since Win 95, none of the Windowses has really been hard to use... although administration and installation of certain options hasn't been easy.

The thing is the way that Apple tends to think of the little things. I configured dialup connections for my sister and my mother recently. They use XP and OS X respectively. The XP connection wasn't hard per se, but the Apple stuff was easy-breezy: orthogonal seeming, conceptually accesible, easy to find the appropriate controls, etc.

Between these finishing touches and the hardware/software integration, I think it's likely I'll prefer using Apple stuff at home for some time to come.

I've played with XP. Win 2k and XP do not suck. My opinion is that they're not as easy to use as OS X. And when things go south (they do on all computers), they're harder to fix...

Re:Misdirected marketing on both parts...

[_Knots]

Actually... to the best of my knowledge that uninstall method has issues.

For instance the MacOS's file-type registry (you know, the thing that links the file type stored in the resource fork to the application that's supposed to open it?) would be inconsistant after such a delete, while a proper uninstall *should* restore the settings to what they were prior to the program being installed.

There are other things, like extensions being left around... and we all know that extensions NEVER, EVER, EVER cause system conflicts. Basically it's the DLL hell all over again, just renamed.

Does this still apply to MacOSX? I know it's valid for 9.2 on down, and would imagine that there must be relics of applications dragged to the trash left elsewhere even in MacOSX.

--Knots;

Re:Misdirected marketing on both parts...

[bnenning]

For instance the MacOS's file-type registry (you know, the thing that links the file type stored in the resource fork to the application that's supposed to open it?) would be inconsistant after such a delete

I don't believe that was the case in 9, and I'm sure it's not in X.

There are other things, like extensions being left around... and we all know that extensions NEVER, EVER, EVER cause system conflicts. Basically it's the DLL hell all over again, just renamed.

Nope. Mac OS X uses "file wrappers", which essentially allow a folder to appear as a single file at the UI level. This lets you include localized resources, graphics, supporting libraries, etc. in (from the user's perspective) a single file. Drag it to the trash, and it's really all gone. The worst that happens is that you're left with a stray prefs file in ~/Library/Preferences, which is harmless. And Mac OS 9-style extensions are thankfully gone in X.

Re:Misdirected marketing on both parts...

[Refrag]

And getting people to switch from their Mac to Windows? Why even spend money on that effort? Windows machines may have been more difficult to use 15 years ago, but they've caught up... anyone who still thinks they are more difficult to use hasn't tried one.

They are easier to use. Try doing a drag & drop install or un-install on a Windows box for most of your software. ...and I'm a recent Windows defector. I was a MS OS user since MS-DOS and MS Word 2.0.

Oh, btw, I keep my Applications folder in my Dock which means I get a context-menu for launching applications just like the Windows Start Menu and it even speeds up my drag & drop installs because all I have to do is drop them on that folder in the Dock.

Re:Misdirected marketing on both parts...

[MoneyT]

For file types, usualy what would happen is Mac OS would search for the parent program, if that wasn't found, it would then search for a similar program, if it couldn't decide on a good one, it would ask you to choose, giving a recomended and an all programs list, with an option to have all similar files open with teh same program.

As for extensions, yeah, they did tend to get left behind. Most of the time they didn't cause problems.the main difference between them and .dlls is that *most* of the time, extensions were named appropriately giving you some idea as to whether you needed it or not (i.e. people on broad band did not need "Modem Dialer"). Most .dlls on the other hand have cryptic names

Re:Misdirected marketing on both parts...

[Fished]

And getting people to switch from their Mac to Windows? Why even spend money on that effort? Windows machines may have been more difficult to use 15 years ago, but they've caught up... anyone who still thinks they are more difficult to use hasn't tried one.

Buzz!

The emphasis is no longer really on "easy to use." It is on "easy to setup and maintain." Windows installations (I don't care the flavor, it's true of XP, 2000 and 98) tend to slowly degrade, becoming more and more flaky until you're left with no choice but to reload.

Drivers are also a bloody pain in the you-know-what. Every time I have to reload Windows, I spend hours hunting around the net for drivers, then updating drivers, the downdating drivers, all to get everything to work together. (Good example: ati video drivers require directx 8, which you have to download running at 640x480 before you can install the driver.) Yes, I could keep the driver disks on-hand, but that's truly a pain in the but. A pain that i don't have to endure with my Macs.

The point being this: 10 years ago, the focus of ease of use was menus, mouses, and drag & drop. Today, the focus is on configuration and maintainability. And here the Mac clearly has MS beat. And yes, this IS because Apple owns the hardware - but I don't care so long as it works.

Re:Misdirected marketing on both parts...

[Josuah]

There are other things, like extensions being left around... and we all know that extensions NEVER, EVER, EVER cause system conflicts. Basically it's the DLL hell all over again, just renamed.

Some people argue that Mac OS X doesn't do extensions anymore because everything is in Bundles. That's not true. An application may install what is called a kext which is very much like extensions were in the previous Mac OS releases. This kext will be included as part of the system when a user logs in.

Actually... to the best of my knowledge that uninstall method has issues.

Yes, this is true. However the drag-and-delete uninstall method will not mess up your system and really does everything except remove files which may never be used again or those kext files which will still be used. Except for kext files, anything which an application may install in */Library or ~/Library/Preferences will never be used again once you delete the application that installed it. Unfortunate to have this type of hard disk clutter, but that's the way it is right now. I think keeping preferences around is a good thing since they don't use up much space and will let a user get their preferences back if they ever reinstall a program.

There should be an uninstall equivalent to the installer for those packages which are installed that way (yucky sentence). If you installed it with drag-and-drop you can delete it with drag-and-delete. But if it was installed with the installer, you should be able to launch an uninstaller to clean up. Still, drag-and-delete works for both types of installed applications is better than Windows where the only drag-and-delete applications are those written for DOS.

Re:Misdirected marketing on both parts...

[FyRE666]

I use two Apple iBook's for music, not because I think the hardware is superior, but because my software [cycling74.com] isn't available for Windows yet

I was always under the impression musicians used to use Apples BECAUSE the OS was so bad. Before I'm marked a troll, what I mean is that the "cooperative multitasking" OS9 and earlier used meant a single app could keep 100% CPU all to itself, which is an advantage when low-latency is a factor.

I used to use sequencer software on my old Amiga 500 + green monochrome monitor up until about 5 years ago, and never really saw the need to switch until I got into Reason in a big way on PC. That app alone is worth the switch I think - if you haven't tried it - DO!

Re:Misdirected marketing on both parts...

[Arker]

Oh, btw, I keep my Applications folder in my Dock

That's a very neat trick. To be fair, though, I must say that it's a bit unintuitive the way you have to drag the folder to the section of the dock that normally holds minimised apps, rather than the 'quickstart' section up top, it took me a minute to figure that out... I guess there is probably some approved mac lingo for that but I'm a new Mac user myself. It's not perfect, but it's quite good... hella better than windows xp, with the added bonus of having an almost-unix system accessible underneat too. Quite happy with my TiBook, quite happy...

Re:Misdirected marketing on both parts...

[namespan]

'orthogonal seeming'? Sheesh. Stop wasting our time.

I'm serious. When it came to sets of network configurations, I didn't have to even think about how things were organized under OS X. You selected from a list of network setups (or created a new one) under a network control panel. Then, under each one of those, there were all the settings you needed to make dialup or ethernet or whatever kind of connectivity work (in tandem or seperately, I might add). Under XP, I visited three different control panels, and it wasn't clear to me how to make "sets" of settings for dialing, dialup, and TCP/IP settings. Nor was it clear how to get to each of these panels -- not all of them were easily found in the setting area. I had to use the "Find" command at one point. Which means I had to know what I was looking for. That's why my sister even needed help. My mom just needs help because she's afraid to try anything at all.

Dead people?

[evilviper]

I remember this same thing happening with the antitrust trial. Soon dead people are going to be writing in to say that they switched from Mac to Windows.

Re:Dead people?

[bugg_superstar]

Maybe they were the same ones who happened to vote for LBJ?

Re:Dead people?

[RelliK]

Soon dead people are going to be writing in to say that they switched from Mac to Windows.

... and died?

Re:Dead people?

[ProfMoriarty]

Soon dead people are going to be writing in to say that they switched from Mac to Windows.

Of course they are ... what do you think they run in hell?

I'd just hate to be the SysAdmin of hell ... running Exchange and IIS ... just think of all the hacking going on there ...

:)

Re:Dead people?

[evilviper]

Hehe.

"I had a friend that switched from Mac to Windows... He's dead now."

Sincerely,
Evilviper

Re:Dead people?

[Alsee]

Bruce Willis attempting to help a terrified 10 year old boy...
The boy finally whispers "I see dead people using Windows".

<gasp of horror!>

-

Re:Dead people?

[silverhalide]

...After they voted in a Florida election.

Re:Dead people?

[Gooberball]

Of course they are ... what do you think they run in hell?

I'd just hate to be the SysAdmin of hell ... running Exchange and IIS ... just think of all the hacking going on there ...

:)

Not to mention the total lack of system resources from the hordes of daemons.

Yeah yeah yeah...I know...I know...

-I am the Grinning God of Chaos.

Re:Dead people?

[Myco]

No problem -- that software makes it easy to guarantee five 9's...

...of downtime.

Re:Dead people?

[swankypimp]

No problem -- that software makes it easy to guarantee five 9's... ...of downtime.

Actually, it's three nines... upside down.

Re:Dead people?

[sv0f]

Soon dead people are going to be writing in to say that they switched from Mac to Windows.

Only in Chicago and Utah.

Ironic...

[CoolVibe]

That I see the Visual Studio ad here...

But on topic, if they tracked her down, how 'bout a real photo of this person? Just for comparison's sake.

It looks like MS is trying to do a "save my face" operation here by spinning the story by (of course) a MS PR person.

Re:Ironic...

[CoolVibe]

The irony is that Slashdot gets paid by microsoft to display that ad on slashdot through doubleclick.

Man, I clicked that ad until I was blue in the face. I loved the irony of it. Hey malda! I just made you some more cash! Woohoo! Billy is paying for it :)

*big grin*

Man do I feel dumb.

[nooboob]

I went and immediately threw my g4 into a dumpster and bought an e-machine with xp after I saw that ad.........it was so powerful and convincing.

Re:Man do I feel dumb.

[sconeu]

I went and immediately threw my g4 into a dumpster and bought an e-machine with xp after I saw that ad.........it was so powerful and convincing.

Can I have your G4, then?

Re:Man do I feel dumb.

[MyHair]

But at least you can now use Office XP and Internet Explorer 6.

Re:Man do I feel dumb.

[jnana]

And don't forget about the 'History' feature that Internet Explorer has. Has anybody ever heard of such a revolutionary concept in a web browser?

Re:Man do I feel dumb.

[qengho]

the 'History' feature that Internet Explorer has. Has anybody ever heard of such a revolutionary concept...?

Well, it was revolutionary when it first came out. That's the main reason I switched from NN4 to IE 4 (Mac). I can't believe it took Netscape so long to implement it.

Re:Man do I feel dumb.

[iankerickson]

Why ask? All you have to do to restore his Mac is drag it out of the trashcan.

Re:Man do I feel dumb.

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Proud founder of the Church of Bog. In Bog we trust!

This isn't as funny as you think it is. "Bog" is the Russian word for "God."

Re:Man do I feel dumb.

[Corporate Drone]

Proud founder of the Church of Bog. In Bog we trust!

This isn't as funny as you think it is. "Bog" is the Russian word for "God."

...and Polish ... and Slovak ... and Ukrainian...(with an allowance for g / h differences...)

Re:Man do I feel dumb.

[qengho]

i remember netscape having a 'history' or whatever it was called before nn4

Really? I remember scouring the menus trying to find it when IE4 came out. If it was there, it was buried so deep that no reasonable user could be expected to locate it. Yet another reason NN4 should die a horrible death (speaking as a web designer).

Re:Man do I feel dumb.

[GregWebb]

(Netscape 4 definitely had History, and it was more sortable than IE's.)

IE's

* Isn't accurate, it loses pages
* Displays stuff sorted by server title, which will often be some low-level content server rather than the site title.

It's a nuisance.

Re:Man do I feel dumb.

[qengho]

Right, I should have said NN4 has no persistent History. Yeah, it kept track of where you'd been in your current session, but flushed it when you quit. IE4 saved the history so you could look up a site you'd been to several days previously.

Please consider/remember

[djupedal]

Microsoft spends big when it comes to it's PR and marekting firms. More than on any other single item in the budget.

These firms have a mandate from MS to spread out and hit hard. They lurk here and on ZDNet, as an example, just waiting for opportunities to impersonate Joe/Jane Average user.

They pump out hourly press releases that all have the same theme..."MS is best and who can fault a leader?...Join us in the fun and we will do all the thinking for you."

It is all too clear what they think of their customers...brain-dead sheep, begging to be sheared.

To understand the mechanics, it may help to first study a long standing 'marketing' ploy known as 'the big lie'. I don't normally use references like this, but the best manual I know is titled 'Rise and Fall of the Third Reich'.

Re:Please consider/remember

[djupedal]

The lawyers are in-house...already on the payroll. Not exactly an 'expense' (budget item), perhaps. But you're correct...legal fees are no where near trivial.

But in terms of cost, I'd say upper management first, then counsel, then PR, then operating expense.

Re:Please consider/remember

[nsayer]

but the best manual I know is titled 'Rise and Fall of the Third Reich'.

Which means that Val must certainly play the part of Vidkun Quisling.

(When the Nazis rolled into Norway, Quisling was the stooge they appointed to run the place for them. His name has become the word used to describe such a person)

Re:Please consider/remember

[bmajik]

Microsoft spends big when it comes to it's PR and marekting firms. More than on any other single item in the budget.

care to substantiate this ? it would be news to me.

Re:Please consider/remember

[djupedal]

You're the one that works for MS...you tell me

Ok, I'll help you out....every large corporation (non 'small business') spends heavily on PR and marketing. It's the nature of the breed. MS simply doesn't have any other weapon....after all, how much does it cost to produce another copy of the same thing, over and over. The packaging costs more than the content. And we know how much MS relies on image...what did they pay the Stones for that tag line a few years back?

You know those tens of thousands of copies of software MS offered to give away to schools in an effort to get off light for being busted by the Governement? Marketing expense. You know that software Bill promised China? Marketing expense. Do you recall all those handhelds they gave away at that developer workshop held just for Palm devotees? Marketing expense. Need more? I didn't think so.

I took the easy side of the debate, and simply pointed out the obvious. Since you can't prove otherwise (and you know it), you elected to challange me on the slim hope I'd crack and back off.

Nice try to get me to argue down, but I'm not biting. Try again. This time try page 6 in your shill handbook, where it says 'maximize the opportunity to engage sympathy from the audience by characterizing the accused as being decent and honorable...avoid statements that may be disputed, and work to earn debate points by endearing yourself to the panel instead.'

Remember though...the panel here is a hard sell. Not like those preppies you grilled when you got your MBA in marketing. And this time what you say goes into the public record.

Re:Please consider/remember

[Scrameustache]

Microsoft spends big when it comes to it's PR and marekting firms. More than on any other single item in the budget.

I dunno, that "Balmer's PCP/cocaine/amphetamine" budget must be pretty big too...

Re:Please consider/remember

[bmajik]

The microsoft balance sheet is a matter of public record. I asked you where your data was because i know you're making it up.

Your statement that MS spends more on marketing than _anything_ else is ridiculous. Paying those employees has to cost something, dont you think ?

Here's an example. The entire world made a huge deal when they found out that the XBox marketing budget was going to be 500m dollars. 500m is a drop in the bucket, budget wise. And it's been one of the most aggressive advertising campaigns ever.

Your bit about including items in other budget "buckets" that are really marketing type moves (i.e. writing off stuff you give away) is moderately insightful, but comes out to a rounding error in the overall microsoft budget.

Nothing about what you said is "obvious". And given how much money we throw at lab hardware on my team, (and how little we spend on marketing), im pretty inclined to say you're full of it.

Your entire original post is 100% presumption. And your follow up is worse. I don't have (or want) an MBA, nor do i care about marketing. If i found out that MS spent more on marketing than anything else, I'd be more upset about it than you'd be, beleive me.

In any case, i can only conclude that you want to be known for your baseless statements which evolve into presumptuous insults, as you've presented nothing else in this discussion.

Here's some data for you, though:
http://www.microsoft.com/msft/sec/FY02/10 k2002.htm

or, to spell it right out:

Sales and Marketing. Sales and marketing expense as a percentage of revenue was 18.0% in 2000, 19.3% in 2001, and 19.1% in 2002.

Thats _all sales and marketing expenses_
19.1% of 28b is a hair under $5b.

I happen to know that MS spends significantly more than $5b on R&D, for example. Much more so than any "free stuff writeoffs" could possibly make up for.

Microsoft? Be dishonest???

[Futurepower(R)]

Is this story suggesting that Microsoft would be dishonest? I'm shocked... Not.

More Microsoft issues: Windows XP shows the Direction Microsoft is Going.

"astroturf" and "microsoft"

[dpilot]

Clearly not a candidate for googlewhacking. The combination gives about 1300 hits.

What surprises me...

[Powercntrl]

...is not that Microsoft has done this, but that they're so shocked and shaken over Apple's switch campaign that they felt this was necessary.

Without getting too offtopic, I owned a Mac for awhile and wasn't too thrilled with it. Yes, it was usable, but the thought that kept repeating in my mind was "I can sell this on eBay and use the money to buy MUCH better hardware for my PC." - so I did. Do I regret no longer being "biplatform"? Nope...

It wasn't so much that I had anything against the Mac platform... I just didn't NEED it. My PC didn't give me any trouble and all the apps I use for doing what I like to do work fine on the PC. I guess if I felt the same way about the Macintosh to begin with, I wouldn't want to switch either and no amount of Microsoft fluff could change my mind. In the end, it just comes down to using what it is you like to use...

As a side note, I think some of you Slashdotters agree that you'd be more than willing to go "biplatform" if Macs weren't so expensive... There's a $199 Wal-Mart PC for the curious Mac users, where's the $199 Mac for curious PC users?

Re:What surprises me...

[Slur]

As a side note, I think some of you Slashdotters agree that you'd be more than willing to go "biplatform" if Macs weren't so expensive... There's a $199 Wal-Mart PC for the curious Mac users, where's the $199 Mac for curious PC users?

Same place they sell the $12,000 Mercedes Benz.

Re:What surprises me...

[WCMI92]

"As a side note, I think some of you Slashdotters agree that you'd be more than willing to go "biplatform" if Macs weren't so expensive... There's a $199 Wal-Mart PC for the curious Mac users, where's the $199 Mac for curious PC users?"

This is an excellent point.

I'd like nothing better than to replace my three PC's with Macs. I like the OS, I like the system better. But I can't afford the 2x cost.

My three PC's are: Athlon 1.2 that is a server, Athlon 1.33 that is my workstation, and an old Celeron notebook.

My server runs 2K Server (only because I'm stydying for the MCSE, . but I've got to pay the bills... My notebook runs only Mandrake 9. My workstation has Manadrake 9 and 2K Pro (2K is only for games).

The most striking thing is how much more stable my PC's have been with Linux than they were with the relatively stable Win 2K. With a good OS, the PC platform is just as stable as the Apple platform.

Thing is, I have less money in my three computers than it would cost to buy ONE Mac that would be equivalent to my workstation.

Until Apple makes a decent $600 machine, they will never penetrate the mass market. I'm thinking awful serious about a used G4 iMac,just to have an OSX machine, but I expect to pay $7-800 for that even...

That is just too expensive.

Re:What surprises me...

[neonstz]

As a side note, I think some of you Slashdotters agree that you'd be more than willing to go "biplatform" if Macs weren't so expensive... There's a $199 Wal-Mart PC for the curious Mac users, where's the $199 Mac for curious PC users?

I think the guy in the van with the engine running have some cheap macs "with no warranty" for sale.

Associated Press & Yahoo! News Aren't Mainstre

[Carnage4Life]

This isn't mainstream?. Considering they broke this a few hours after it ran on Slashdot I'm not sure what else you expect. A CNN <blink>breaking news</blink> flash?

Microsoft saved my job

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi, my name is Valerie G. Mallinson and I work for a Microsoft PR firm.

One day I asked my boss for a new video camera for my Mac. He said "Remember, your paycheck comes from Microsoft, let's switch you for our new marketing campaign!"

So I switched.

And then my boss said "Hey, Microsoft wants to tell the world that you switched, but you're no prettier than those people Apple used. We wish you looked BETTER than Apple people."

And so they used some stock photos to give me a make over.

People have switched

[scott1853]

There's been plenty of people that switched from Apple to Windows, they're just too embarrassed to publicly admit their mistake.

the sick thing is....

[sharph]

all the dishonesty.... its legal.

they never made any connection from the woman to the article, they just placed it on the same page and hinted that she was writing it.

(of course, i'm not a lawyer. so i could be 100% wrong.)

Re:the sick thing is....

[John Hasler]

Lying is not illegal.

Good thing ...

[bizitch]

No one is claiming the intelecual property rights on stupidity ....

Re:Good thing ...

[Quixote]

... but Microsoft does have a monopoly there.

But Why Did She Switch?

[Spencerian]

Two things get me about this:

1) The woman works at a PR firm--a business where Macintosh systems are fairly strong, albeit not quite as much as advertising and the graphic arts. So, what kind of Mac did she switch from? A crappy 6-year old Mac or something ancient? Hell, anything would make you switch from that.

2) By being a contractual employee of Microsoft, this ad really doesn't give MS a lot of credit for their product. Can't they simply find a relatively honest person to endorse? I mean, really! Not everyone hates Microsoft, and I'm sure there are enough people to say, "Sure, it works for me."

This can't be a good thing, and it only creates more alienation in a business where getting along still means a little something, if only to make friends before you merge your companies.

Re:But Why Did She Switch?

[GigsVT]

Not everyone hates Microsoft, and I'm sure there are enough people to say, "Sure, it works for me."

Apparently not.

It's telling that they couldn't find one single person that would give a testimonial.

Have you ever thought that possibly every one of the "MS supporters" you see online are actually paid to astroturf?

Re:But Why Did She Switch?

[Slur]

Have you ever thought that possibly every one of the "MS supporters" you see online are actually paid to astroturf?

Actually, when Apple released Mac OS X 10.2 and a zillion people popped up on SlashDot and various Mac sites to bitch and whine about the $130 price tag I became dead certain of it.

Re:But Why Did She Switch?

[Dalcius]

"Have you ever thought that possibly every one of the "MS supporters" you see online are actually paid to astroturf?"

Yes.

Marketing 101

[zentec]

Microsoft is living proof that with enough creative marketing, you truly can wrap a turd in colored foil and call it candy!

Some people may see this as insignificant in light of all the other corporate scandals in the world. However, it's just one more instance of Microsoft treating their customers and/or prospective customers as bafoons.

Many companies have fallen on hard times because they failed to respect the intelligence of their customers. The *only* thing keeping people from ditching Microsoft like a bad habit is the lack of anything comparable. That day will come, and Microsoft will surely rue it.

Re:Marketing 101

[Ektanoor]

That's good. that's just greeeeeaaaat! And how about secret information hidden in Excel files, but which was supposed to be deleted? And how about one Word file that carried data from every computer the damn document passed through? And how about all those GUIDs and other IDs that end in M$ Office documents? And why some Word files manage to carry spurious information from deleted data? And, for God's sake I saw several times how certain Windows machines (and NOT ONLY the ill-famed Win98) send small little packets to one address that occurs to belong to M$?

Who fails to respect the intelligence of their customers?

Re:Marketing 101

[Alsee]

with enough creative marketing, you truly can wrap a turd in colored foil and call it candy!

And in Marketing 102 they teach you how to sell an empty peice of colored foil

-

Re:Marketing 101

[techstar25]

"Many companies have fallen on hard times because they failed to respect the intelligence of their customers."

"Intelligence of their customers". Hmmmmm. Their customers are using Windows after all. Actually I think they are very familiar with their customers intelligence, and that's why they think they can get away with stuff like this. ;)

Valerie G. Mallinson in 20 Years

[Twintop]

Daughter: "Mommy, did you have your 15 minutes of fame?"
Valerie: "Yes, honey."
Daughter: "Did you like it, mommy?"
Valerie: "No, honey."
Daughter: "Why?"
Valerie: "It was for Microsoft."

Re:I've got a story for them

[dacarr]

Sure, if you don't mind dealing with a PDF or .DOC of the submission form. =p

"A spokeswoman from Apple would not comment"

[bobdotorg]

The best part of the article:
"A spokeswoman from Apple would not comment"

Yeah - because she was still cleaning up all of the millk that she laughed through her nose.

Truth in Advertising, Breaking News on Slashdot

[Hoarse Whisperer]

The ramifications of this are astounding, imagine if this sort of thing is going on in other industries. You know those housewives who give testimonials about the effectiveness of washing powder? The fast cars that are guaranteed to improve your sex appeal? How can we trust anything we see in advertising anymore?

Re:Truth in Advertising, Breaking News on Slashdot

[swankypimp]

How can we trust anything we see in advertising anymore?

That's why I only buy products endorsed by people who e-mail me "special deals". If it weren't for these fine gentlemen, I never would have found out about Cock-Enlarging Herbal Viagra (guaranteed to make her scream), nor would have believed that Nubile Webcam Wenches would be Sucking and Fondling just for me. I'm not sure what spirit of benevolence caused you to mail me this amazing offer, but thank you, Friend. I mean, if you can't trust getabiggerdick@hotmail.com, who can you trust?

Ed Wood ad agency?

[uncoveror]

Using stock photos in "testimonials" is something low-budget spammers do. Did Microsoft really think we wouldn't notice? They could do some TV commercials with stock footage. Do they use the Ed Wood ad agency?

Advertisers don't "get it" why Gen X isn't buying their crap. We have figured out that marketing and lying have become synonyms, and we don't like it. Anybody remember the movie, Crazy People? Dudley Moore wanted to use honesty in advertising, and they locked him up in the nuthouse. The ads worked, though.

Re:Ed Wood ad agency?

[x136]

They could do some TV commercials with stock footage.

I can see it now...

Quick fade into rocket taking off. Cut to two 70's crash test sedans in a head-on collision. Horizontal wipe to atomic bomb detonating. Crossfade to fat guy taking a cannonball in the stomach. Star wipe to garish orange screen with Microsoft logo and "Where do you want to go today?" tagline. All done to the tune of cheap, generic classical music.

In a strangely Microsoftian twist, this'd all be done with iMovie, which would be revealed on Slashdot a few weeks later. The ad would be immediately pulled.

Re:Ed Wood ad agency?

[scott1853]

Honest advertising would be nice to see. But what do you expect Microsoft to say about XP?

"Look at the pretty colors"

"It doesn't lock up as much as previous versions."

"Look at the pretty colors"

Re:Ed Wood ad agency?

[Dalcius]

Doesn't it just get ya right here *thumps chest* when you've gotta shell out more money for something you should have had years ago?

I love that feeling.

Re:Ed Wood ad agency?

[Planesdragon]

But what do you expect Microsoft to say about XP?

(I have never recieved anything from MS, aside from a "thank you letter" for them sending me a free copy of XP.)

How about:

• New Luna interface*
• "Customize the Start Menu"
• Smooth* multi-user environment
• Stable*
• NT kernal finally designed for the home user
• Runs all** new games, natively
• RUNS ON COMMODITY HARDWARE

There is enough new about XP to fill a "switch" campaign; MS just doesn't have the cojones to pull it off, nor the respect for their users.

------------------
*: These are, of course, relative to previous MS versions / the extant consumer PC market.

**: If there is a game on the shelves today that doesn't have a windows version, I'm not aware of it.

Best statement

[ehiris]

Is the one about how much of a surfing addict she is and how nice IE6 is. How can a good looking women become a surfing addict? It's not like she has to have her porn every day....

personal website?

[autopr0n]

Hrm, the AP says that they found the writer's personal website. Anyone out there have the URL?

Re:personal website?

[grub]

Created on..............: Tue, Apr 02, 2002
Expires on..............: Wed, Apr 02, 2003
Record last updated on..: Tue, Apr 02, 2002


"Coming Soon" and she bought the domain > 6 months ago? Hey Val, you could get past the "Coming Soon.." page if you kept your Mac and used Claris Homepage!

:PP

Bigger players are forced to switch to MS

[Anonymous Coward]

The more outrageous news is that Microsoft has forced the some of the largest multinational ad agencies to get rid of competitors products (Novell, IBM, etc.) if they wanted to see any Microsoft$ in their books.
I spoke with sysadmins, who told me that Microsoft audited their IS department on a regular basis to make sure that whatever Microsoft police decided to die is dead indeed.
Compared to that this documented switch is just the tip of the iceberg.
I really wonder that these incidents should also be included in the Microsoft anti-trust trial.

How they traced her down

[Anonymous Coward]

Download "ShowOffYourSkills.doc" from the web page.

$ strings ShowOffYourSkills.doc | less
/* truncated... */
Show Off Your Skills
Normal.dot
Katherine L. Trunkey
Microsoft Word 10.0
valmalgal.com
Show Off Your SkillsTitle
_PID_HLINKS
_AdHocReviewCycleID
_Em ailSubject
_AuthorEmailDisplayName
_ReviewingToo lsShownOnce
Comments
Valerie Mallinson (Wes Rataushk & Assc Inc)
Microsoft Word Document
MSWordDoc
Word.Document.8

This "switcher" had her privacy compromised by Microsoft software. Her web site is not yet active but you can look up the "Wes Rataushk" firm to find that it is in Redmond. The following blog belongs to a coworker of hers, perhaps you could ask him more:

http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:ncxQ S-5T-OQC:www.pamkeesey.com/+Wes+Rataushk&hl=en&ie= UTF-8

-s.

Re:How they traced her down

[I Am The Owl]

Well gee, buddy, thanks a lot for violating her online rights. It's not every day that the government lets a select few take over on spying on people and violating their Constitutional right to privacy. Before you know it, they will be tracking her in a big government database and steal her organs while she is sleeping and then match up all her data and assume her identity!

I hope you can't sleep at night, because I know I don't!

Re:How they traced her down

[coolfrood]

Just wondering... Isn't MS Word 10.0 the MS Word that runs on Mac OS X and not Office XP? If she already had Word on Mac, why did she have to switch to XP for it, like she claims she did?

Re:How they traced her down

[Dr. Awktagon]

So not only did Microsoft use one of their contracted workers for a pseudo-Switch campaign, they actually used a worker who was working on the campaign itself!! That's X-TRA LAME(tm)!

"My name is Steve Jobs, and I'm the CEO of a large fruit company."

Re:How they traced her down

[YU Nicks NE Way]

No. MS Word 10.0 is Word 2002, the version which ships with Office XP.

Re:How they traced her down

[grub]

It's not just MS software that spies on you!

bash$ vi hello.txt

(type "hello" and save)

bash$ strings hello.txt
hello
hello.txt
Normal.dot
Grub L. McGrub
vi 1.023
OpenBSD 3.1-CURRENT
Grub L. McGrub (grub.net LLC)
vi text document
vi.document.1.023

Yes, it's a joke.

Behind the Lines

[pyrrho]

"Fire another round, corporal."

"But sir... we're running out of feet."

All Will Be Forgiven *IF*...

[portege00]

...she's as hot as that chick that M$ used in the ad. Otherwise, someone must pay.

What is all this slashdot traffic?

[AELinuxGuy]

Do you think that M$ gets pissed that 95% of their traffic for web marketing programs comes from slashdot?

Some switch

[Kostya]

According to this site, she was helping this guy put together PocketPC solutions for use on his Africa biking trip. Sounds like she was a little more in the MS fold than the article said. I'm surprised she even still used Macs, being a PocketPC "solutions troubleshooter" and all!

Re:Some switch

[corby]

Wha wha wha? The yanked Microsoft article includes this cliffhanger ending:

*Editor's Note: Now that we've successfully converted our writer to a Windows PC, we will be working on getting her to try a Pocket PC. Stay tuned for more developments!

Gosh, do you think they'll be able to get Valerie to 'try' a Pocket PC? After she's been a FREAKING PROFESSIONAL CONSULTANT on the device? Too bad we'll never find out!

legal?

[autopr0n]

Since when is lying illegal? I mean, other then in court and to the police lying is and has always been legal. There can be civil penalties if you disparage someone, like if I said you raped children you could sue me. But you would have to prove that I knew what I was saying was false.

they never made any connection from the woman to the article, they just placed it on the same page and hinted that she was writing it.

And if they had... so what? It still wouldn't be a crime.

Re:All I can say is...

[Quirk]

Have you considered speech therapy?

"Hidden" Personal Data

[Captain Chad]

In the MS Word document" (still available on the MS site), under properties, under the "Custom" tab, the

1. _AuthorEmailDisplayName

property is set to

1. Valerie Mallinson (Wes Rataushk & Assc Inc)

I guess that's hidden if you don't know much about computers.

The Sink Thanks of Security

[Ektanoor]

Soooooooo, is this the company that promises us a full-fletched Terminator 1001B termed "Palladin" to protect our privacy and safeguard our security? Is this that same company that recently promised to solve privacy concerns for its bullet-holed Passport in front of the Government? Is this that same company that cries foul of seeing holes, bugs, trojans roaming all its platforms and claims there should be some order on publishing such things on Inet? It seems so...

Only M$ could publish an article signed by an anonymous writer. And show who she is in front of hundreds of millions of Internet users...

That's a lot of privacy... I like it! How long it will take to see M$ MUD - Where BG went today?

Did Microsoft hint at it?

[jeremyacole]

Did anyone notice this: up above:

Windows XP relieved my fears about switching. I can read my files, import e-mail addresses from my Palm* to the Microsoft Outlook® messaging and collaboration client, and keep my Web favorites.

and then down below:

*Editor's Note: Now that we've successfully converted our writer to a Windows PC, we will be working on getting her to try a Pocket PC. Stay tuned for more developments!

"our writer" ? A small hint that it's a Microsoft employee?

Re:Did Microsoft hint at it?

[Planesdragon]

"our writer" ? A small hint that it's a Microsoft employee?

Not really. It's grammatically correct when speaking about a subject to refer to "ours."

Imagine a pair of biologist watching a lion, and saying "now that she's given birth, our lion will have to tend to these cubs."

For all the factual errors in that article ("Hey, look, Windows XP is better than my old Mac II!"), they at least got the grammar sorta right (AFAIK.)

Apple is easier to install and configure

[El]

...if for not other reason than because the set of hardware on which it must run is much more restricted. Microsoft is attempting to do the impossible -- support every PC and PC peripheral that has ever been shipped. This is the source of many M$ software headaches -- especially during installation.

Re:Apple is easier to install and configure

[megaduck]

Microsoft is attempting to do the impossible -- support every PC and PC peripheral that has ever been shipped.

That's not true, actually. Windows has native support for a very small percentage of PC hardware and peripherals. They leave the majority of driver writing and device support to the hardware manufacturers, just like Apple does. Windows XP needs extra drivers for my scanner, just like OS X.

Even when MS does support hardware, it's not as easy as a Mac. For example, both Windows and OS X include drivers for my HP Deskjet. In order to setup the printer on Windows I have to:

1. Plug the printer in.
2. Click "Next" a few times.
3. Select my printer model.
4. Tell Windows that I want it to be my default printer.
5. Tell it I don't want to print a test page.
6. Click "Finish".

To set up the same printer on a Mac you:

1. Plug it in.

Macs aren't easier to configure because they support a more limited range of hardware. They're easier to configure because the OS behaves in a much more sensible fashion.

Re:Apple is easier to install and configure

[spoon42]

Microsoft is attempting to do the impossible -- support every PC and PC peripheral that has ever been shipped

Nice try, idiot. Maybe every peripheral shipped in the last three years. And even then, maybe. They don't even come close to supporting every product they've ever shipped. Arg. Got a 5+ year old NIC lying around? Even if it uses the same chipset as one you could go out and buy? Good luck finding a driver. Meanwhile, on linux: modprobe, ifconfig, ...there is no step three. :-p Linux actually comes close to your supposed universal support-- and it runs on a dozen other architectures, with all kinds of devices. Funny that. And without a multi-billion dollar marketing^Wengineering budget.

Really, that's one of the dumbest things I've read today. Fucking crack monkeys.

Re:Apple is easier to install and configure

[Twirlip of the Mists]

To set up the same printer on a Mac you:

1. Plug it in.

Yeah, I know. I can't wait to get one of the new wireless-equipped and Rendezvous-savvy printers so we can simplify the install process a bit.

Won't that be a beautiful thing? A zero-step installation processes for a printer. Sweeeet.

Re:Apple is easier to install and configure

[shepd]

What happens when you have more than one printer on a Mac?

It doesn't sound like there's a way to combat the question of which printer gets chosen by what programs to me.

Not to mention I'm having trouble finding the centronics interface on a Mac (especially one running OS X)...

Oh, right. I forgot. Macs use USB because it's slower for printing.

Yay. Chalk another one up for the costs for simplicity of design.

Re:Apple is easier to install and configure

[El]

Read the post, moron. I was comparing Windows to Mac, not Windows to Linux. Yes, Linux has much better support for obsolete hardware than Windows. I know, having installed both Mandrake and Win2K on serveral old boxes. Way to demonstrate your ignorance, and in the most obnoxious manner possible.

AP == Associated Press

[yerricde]

How do we know the Anonymous Poster isn't an employee of Linux

I don't see "Anonymous Poster" capitalized that way anywhere in the blurb or the article.

If you're trying to draw a parallel between "AP" in the blurb and "AC" as a common abbreviation for Slashdot's Anonymous Coward, you're mistaken, but I forgive you: AP == Associated Press.

logic?

[djupedal]

So, you'd also buy a Mercedes bulletproof limo and Gulfstream personal jet if they were closer to your budget as well?

What kind of logic is that? We would be crazy to argue with that. It's a debater's tactic that puts the respondent in a no-win position, regardless of their answer. Would you do drugs if there was no risk? Would you stop ageing if you could? Would you fly if someone gave you wings?

Re:logic?

[G-funk]

So, you'd also buy a Mercedes bulletproof limo and Gulfstream personal jet if they were closer to your budget as well?

You know, if mac hardware was any better than PC hardware at half the price, that argument might hold water. But it's not. It's commodity hardware, 90% of which is the exact same thing you buy for your intel box. The only thing macs have going for them hardware-wise is the limited choice you have, which gives apple greater control.

Re:logic?

[jnana]

commodity hardware like Gigabit Ethernet? Oh, yeah, I forgot, that comes standard on every PC.

Spot the similarities

[NewtonsLaw]

Have you ever noticed how much of the spam that fills your mailbox every day comes littered with testimonials from happy customers?

"I was skeptical that FatAway(tm) would work but I've dropped 47 dress sizes in two weeks -- George from New York"

Since I purchased my FastCash(tm) Work at Home Kit, I've earned over twelve trillion dollars in just one month -- Dick from Arkasas

etc, etc.

The interesting similarity between such testimonials and Microsoft's little works of fiction are:

1. they're all effectively anonymous
   
2. they all make outrageous claims which are at best gross overstatement and more likely to be downright lies
   
3. they're all from unscrupulous marketers who e-thics are stupid people that use the Net.
   

Like most consumers, I only have so much money to spend -- so will I buy the breast enlargement cream or Windows XP? Hmmmm...

Typical

[Micah]

Sucky as it is, scaring up "testimonials" from people who are involved in a company seems pretty common.

I once wrote a fairly awesome tool for finding expired domains, for a company I once worked for. The company president sent off an e-mail telling all employees of the company to write up a testimonial about how great this new product was, and how it gave so much more useful results than the "e-crap.com" that other search engines suggested. He mentioned in the e-mail "even Micah, if he's willing" -- which I took to mean he thought I'd be above writing a fake testimonial (which is true, I WOULD have a problem doing that).

Funny thing is, I actually had a true testimonial. I used the thing to find some very good domains for a project I was working on. So the company put up a "testimonial" page with about 6 completely BS testimonials and my true one. :-)

Ironically, my tool has been taken down for some reason which I'm still not sure of (I think they were ticking off the WHOIS people), and now it has degraded to one that suggests things like "e-crap.com".

Re:The truth be told

[realmolo]

Huh?

I loved the Amiga too, but the UI of the Amiga wasn't all that cool. POTENTIALLY cool, but in practice it sucked. The Macintosh had it beat as far as usability goes.

For how long?

[The Bungi]

For how long are the teeming masses going to beat this dead horse? Microsoft's "PR" campaing is no different from what any other company does day in and day out. Does anyone really think that a company like Microsoft (this is Microsoft, fer fucks sake) would cower in fear as half a million giggling nerds say "hah! got you! u sux!!"?

And while I'm at it, let's not forget that people who appear in the Apple switch ads are real people, located by the company through god-knows-what mechanism and invited to offer "testimonials" gratis. Yeah, sure.

Re:For how long?

[Silverhammer]

Blockquoth the poster:

Interesting. So what makes someone go to Apple's web site and look for that page? Perhaps the ads.

No, Apple started asking for testimonials last year, after the release of OS X 10.1, and the user community responded. It's really that simple.

Thought so. Chiken and egg thing, hmmmm?

Why is it so hard for you to believe that these testimonials are genuine?

Re:For how long?

[Scratch-O-Matic]

Microsoft's "PR" campaing is no different from what any other company does day in and day out.

I've seen quite a few posts along these lines: "This is a common marketing practice, so what's the big deal?"

Fact is, it IS common for companies to "dramatize" testimonials, but the significance to those here on Slashdot is that Microsoft apparently can't come up with an actual person who voluntarily gave up Mac in favor of Microsoft. When faced with a successful campaign by Apple, featuring real people with realistic stories, the best Microsoft can do is an airbrushed model beaming "My colors are brighter and my whites stay whiter...erm...I mean, I switched to Windows!"

Re:For how long?

[NetFu]

No, I've used Macs for more than 8 years and they started this crap *years* ago. That doesn't make it any more genuine.

Why is it so hard to believe they're genuine? Because most people tend to believe that BIG companies and other big organizations (i.e. government) are corrupted to some extent by their power. Also, it doesn't hurt that so many of these "testimonials" have turned out to be B.S. over the years, too (Sony did it not too long ago when they used Sony employees to give "testimonials" in one of their commercials).

Another thing -- what else would you expect from a company (Apple) that has sued companies out of existence (I worked for one) and otherwise screwed corporate "partners" (I worked for one, knew many, and bought from many more -- all gone now) for their own gain?

I, for one, don't expect Apple (or most other big companies) to be HONEST, that's for damn sure...

Be a Super-Sleuth!

[corby]

Hey kids!

Want to engage in real-life Kompooter Forensics just like AP does? Follow these easy steps!

1) Go to Google's cache of the article, since it has now been pulled by Microsoft.

2) Now click on the link at the bottom of the cache page, which reads "Download the submission form in Word format." Whoops! Looks like those kid whizzes at Microsoft didn't actually remove everything!

3) Haven't made the switch to Microsoft yet? Word still new to you? No prob. Go to the 'File' Menu and select Properties while you are viewing the Microsoft Word document. Don't worry! No chmod here!

4) Peruse the tabs to uncover all of AP's 'personal data', including Valerie's zany new website. You go, girl!

Re:Be a Super-Sleuth!

[SurfsUp]

1) wget http://www.microsoft.com/insider/downloads/ShowOff YourSkills.pdf

2) strings ShowOffYourSkills.pdf

Reboot after Windows Update

[yerricde]

Start, and maybe even finish

That's part of the problem. You click the Start button to Stop the computer.

I really can not think of any way that the OS could contribute to make me more productive.

How about being compiled specifically for your processor's microarchitecture? Public-source operating systems (such as GNU/Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD, and Darwin) can provide this, and operating systems designed to run only on one or two microarchitectures (i.e. Mac OS X, which runs on PowerPC G3 and G4) can provide this. Can Windows?

I don't recall having XP crash (needing a reboot) in about a year now

What about when it goes and downloads a patch to its networking stack, IE, the J?v? VM, or Outlook Express? Granted, that's not a crash, but it still needs a reboot.

If you are really desperate, you can skin XP to make it look like Aqua.

Go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

Waiting for the obvious PR counter-punch

[Harv]

I hope they'll do it, I really do. Apple I mean. It's obvious:

"Microsoft? Hell, they can't even find enough real people to do their ads, they had to dredge up an employee!"

hiring

[asv108]

You know microsoft got a lot of their intial development talent in 80's by recruiting a bunch of people from Xerox PARC. You think they would use the same stragey and offer to double all the salaries of the Apple marketing people.

A freelance writer huh?

[Trogre]

From the article:
"I am a freelance writer; I demand the best in mobile computing."

But if you work for Microsoft PR, you can't be freelance now, can you?

Perhaps she was misquoted:
"I am writing promotion materials for Freelancer, a game which will demand the best in computing hardware"

Then rebuild the desktop database

[yerricde]

For instance the MacOS's file-type registry (you know, the thing that links the file type stored in the resource fork to the application that's supposed to open it?) would be inconsistant after such a delete

On Mac OS 6.x through 9.x, you can rebuild the desktop database by holding Command+Option while you mount the drive (for fixed media, usually when Finder starts). It scans all the apps on your hard disk, looking for "bundle" bits that tell whether a program has some sort of association, then it looks for BNDL, FREF, open, and kind resources to determine which file types to associate to an app.

Can you rebuild the Windows Registry that easily?

Who cares?

[sheldon]

Actually chances are this person at the ad agency decided to throw this together as a trial to see how it would take.

Then someone in marketing found out about it and called the ad agency asking them to pull it because it's a completely worthless ad campaign. Apple's switch commercials have generated a lot of bad press for the company, mostly with parodies and spoofs, and have done nothing to convince non-current Mac owners to buy a new Mac. To copy this bad campaign from the Microsoft side would just look pathetic.

Apple unfortunately has a long history of this... their commercials target the Mac faithful. I guess you could call this the innovator's dilemna, because if Apple started targetting the Macintosh towards the Windows market they would alienate the "Think Different" people who only buy Mac's because they aren't mainstream.

In the end, the rest of the world doesn't give a shit anyway. Well except maybe slashdot, but they try to make headlines out of anything that can be twisted in an anti-Microsoft way.

Re:The truth be told

[SparkyMartin]

As for User Interfaces Apple and Microsoft have upgraded their User Interfaces considerably, but they need to give due credit to Amiga for pioneering UI-based operating systems, from which they obviously ripped off.

Considering that the Mac came out a year earlier than the Amiga, and the Apple Lisa came out a year before the Mac, unless Apple had a time machine in the early 80's I don't see how they could have ripped off the Amiga UI.

It's possible they could have used McFly's Flux Capacitor though...

why apple will never succeed...

[Dr. Awktagon]

I mean, look at the difference:

Apple: spends the better part of a year looking for interesting, off-beat, photogenic people. Then they read hundreds of emails. They hand-pick a bunch of folks and pay money to fly them out, coach them, then tape them. They put the ads on nationwide TV.

Microsoft: Somebody at Microsoft's PR firm picks up the phone and says "Hey, remember that writer, Valerie? And remember how the screen on her Mac Centris 610 finally died and she got that Windows laptop? .. What's that? .. Yeah that was funny.. though I probably I did the same thing the first time I used a CD-ROM .. But anyway, track her down and give her $500 to finish some copy for our new campaign. I've already got most of it written.. .. what?.. No, just put a stock photo like usual .. okay .. bye!"

How easy! That's why Apple will always be a "niche" player. They give a shit about stuff like this. Like the guy in college who actually wrote all his lab reports while everybody else just copied one from last year.

Re:why apple will never succeed...

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Apple: spends the better part of a year looking for interesting, off-beat, photogenic people. Then they read hundreds of emails. They hand-pick a bunch of folks and pay money to fly them out, coach them, then tape them. They put the ads on nationwide TV.

Great post, but you left out one more telling fact. Apple hired acclaimed documentary filmmaker Errol Morris to direct these little 30-second spots. That's right up there with-- I hear many people don't know this-- getting Ridley Scott to direct the now-famous "1984" commercial.

Re:why apple will never succeed...

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

Apple hired acclaimed documentary filmmaker Errol Morris to direct these little 30-second spots.

So does that mean Bill Gates is Mr. Death or that MS PR hacks are Fast Cheap and out of Control?

Re:why apple will never succeed...

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Dude, you missed the obvious! He's Bill Gates of Heaven, of course!

Re:Why Are You Guys So Obsessed Over This?

[Dalcius]

Anyone find it ironic that the parent came right after a post talking about Microsoft trolls?

On topic, I think it's very relevant. Complaining and laughing at a company as stupid as Microsoft is relaxing. =)

Re:This just in

[Dalcius]

-1 Offtopic... yeah

Go back and read this guy's past comments. If this guy doesn't work for Microsoft in a direct or indirect way, I'd be surprised.

Re:The truth be told

[SparkyMartin]

Yep, but back then, ANYTHING with a GUI expecially one that allowed you to use a mouse was cool.

Remember GEOS for the Commodore 64? Very cool if you didn't mind waiting 4 minutes for the thing to load, then another 2 minutes for it to load GEOS-Write or whatever it was called. A perfect example of being POTENTIALLY cool, but in practice it sucked"

Microsoft Word 10.0

[angst7]

This may have been pointed out already, but Microsoft Word 10.0 (the version stamped in the ShowOffYourSkills.doc file), is the Mac OS X version. So, apparently, she wrote this piece on a Mac.

I love this world.

Re:Microsoft Word 10.0

[scott1853]

Isn't Word XP version 10? I have Word 2000 here and it says 9.0 so I'm just assumming that XP would be 10, I could be wrong though.

Re:Microsoft Word 10.0

[InnovATIONS]

Office XP, aka Word 2002 is listed as version 10 as well.

Re:Microsoft Word 10.0

[nolife]

I believe Office XP is 10.0 also. What would really be interesting is compare the metadata or actual file raw data (strings, hex view etc..) between the Apple and the Windows versions. I do not have access to an Mac but I doubt that the two versions of Office would create the exact same file, meaning there is probably a trackable difference between the two.

Re:This just in

[Dalcius]

Let me quote a previous post of his to demonstrate:

Regarding the good review on Linux in the NYT:
" a left leaning newspaper (which has more and more blurred the line between news and commentary with their liberal bias) endorses a communist's OS.

Who's next, the People's Daily?"

more privacy invasion

[Anonymous Coward]

how much more can i dig up on this woman?

she and her husband helped produce a play featuring ugly, naked people at a local seattle theatre house. he was the lighting manager.

here's all his contact information, including his seattle based theatrical lighting equipment company, PNTA

and yes folks, his web site is powered by Apache.

Valerie's husband is an Open Source Software user. looks like she has her work cut out for her.

-s.

Ken & Barbie Switch

[johnrpenner]

hi - i'm ken.

and i'm barbie,

and we like windows better... really really.

everyone else uses it,

so should you.

--

ignore that man behind the curtain
(the wizard of oz)

Re:Ken & Barbie Switch

[ebbomega]

Don't you mean Clint and Brandy? I mean... we are talking computers here....

(apologies to Neal Stephenson)

water held

[djupedal]

Was Firewire a commodity item when it showed up on Yosemite? Was the crush zone car body a commodity when Mercedes introduced it to the world?

Just because these items eventually show up everywhere, doesn't mean that at one time they weren't exclusive to one manufacturer...and costly as well. That's the way it works. If you want the best when it first comes out, you have to pay for it. Ask anyone with a 60" LCD TV...or a home elevator, etc. Expensive now...commodity later.

Re:water held

[G-funk]

Yeah, there's _HEAPS_ of things you get in an apple you buy today that you can't get in an intel pc (apart from the cpu+m/b). Like ddr ram... oh wait... IDE harddisks... no, that's not it.... AH-HA! Geforce 4!... no, wait... Firewire?... nope, you can get that...

Yup heaps.

Re:water held

[djupedal]

IDE...now that's an interesting spin.

Macs came with SCSI originally...and everyone knows that IDE is the low-cost replacement for SCSI. So what does that have to do with Mac vs. PC and commoditized componentry...

...what was your point, again? C'mon...make a point...any point..I know you can do it.

Re:water held

[G-funk]

My point is fairly simple... You don't get what you pay for when you buy mac hardware. Comparing pcs to fords and macs to benzes is a stupid analogy.

not the first time a .doc has betrayed its creator

[CoughDropAddict]

Bruce Perens nailed some of the puppetters behind the "software choice" campaign.

Does anyone actually believe them NOW?

[ruiner13]

Ok, they looked really bad. But do they actually expect us to believe that this "new" person is any more real? The PR firm probably got a call from his billness himself, and in a panic they hired some chick who fit the description to play along. Just my 2 cents.

* Breaking News *

[Cheese Cracker]

Microsoft releases MS Mac User Converter®
Monday October 9, 2:04 pm ET

REDMOND, WA, Oct. 9 /PropagandaNewswire/ -- Microsoft has revelead their latest innovation,
MS Mac User Converter®. MS Mac User Converter® is a product that converts a Macintosh® user
to MS Windows XP® user. "Our internal tests has been more successful than we had expected," said
Steve Ballmer, the CEO of Microsoft®. "If we can successfully convert all Macintosh® users to MS
Windows XP®, we're going to dominate 96% of the desktop market." Ballmer said. "Next step is to
convert all the Linux® users, but we still have some problems that needs to be solved. Linux® users
tend to be tougher to convert." Ballmer said.

Microsoft® can now add MS Mac User Converter® to their already successful list of innovations,
such as:

• MS Windows®
  
• MS Excel®
• MS Word®
• MS Powerpoint®
• MS DOS®

Microsoft® clearly shows the world that they're ahead of their competitors. "None of the competitors
have been able to launch a product like MS Mac User Converter®. This strengthens Microsoft®'s
position on the market" said Blackie Lawless, industry analyst for Gartner Dataquest's Software
Industry Research group®.

I have three questions...

[dcavanaugh]

(1) Ms. Mallinson may be the "switcher", but did she actually write the article? If so, who is "Don Funk" and why is it his folder that is shown in the screenshot?

(2) Did she actually buy XP Pro and Office XP, or did she get that for free as an M$ contractor? That's some pricey software; she must be one hell of a freelance writer to afford it.

(3) Was the "switch" voluntary or was it part of a requirement for the campaign?

Re:I have three questions...

[Ian Bicking]

I am a little confused as well. I believe Mallinson's name is on the document at the bottom of the page, which is a solicitation for more submissions. In that context, it is completely okay that it's a MS employee that wrote the document.

It seems more likely that Don Funk wrote the article, though I'm not entirely clear on who Don Funk is -- donfu@microsoft.com? OTOH, searching Google his name shows up lots of places -- is it a name turned into a standard filler (like "foobar")? Or does he write lots of documentation, and uses his own name in example sometimes?

Now I suspect Don Funk wrote the article, and Mallinson is taking credit for it because the entire article is obviously a complete lie if Funk wrote it. The other possibility is that Funk wrote parts of it as documentation, and Mallinson used that content to produce the "letter".

The other thing that links Mallinson to the editing of the content, not the content itself, is the italicized comment on the bottom talking about converting the author to Pocket PC. Someone else referenced this site where this same Mallinson is referred to as an expert with Pocket PCs. Though, when I think of the possibilities, it again becomes likely that she already had all the content for a second article ready, and was setting it up for a followup.

The whole Pocket PC thing makes it seem very likely that Mallinson is simply lying about converting from Mac (at least to XP). But it would offend people more if a man wrote an article, and then was turned into a woman in a cynical attempt to make XP seem more soft and accessible. Probably several people wrote the article, and then one person put it together -- Dun Funk seems like his name is attached to technical things, so I would imagine he would not have put the article together, but would have written some of the more technical material in the article.

Re:I have three questions...

[dcavanaugh]

OK, she had an 8 year old Mac, and discovered that her status as an M$ contractor made her eligible for a discounted laptop and software at near-Linux prices.

That explains how her laptop was pre-loaded with XP Home Edition and yet she upgraded to XP Pro. At full sticker price, this isn't going to happen very often. I figured it was either a corporate giveaway or perhaps she made a trip to China.

I'm not an Apple fan, but I can't wait for a "Switch the switcher" counteroffensive. I predict that when Ms. Mallinson has outlived her usefulness at M$, she will write a series of articles for Apple about her misguided adventure behind enemy lines.

Re:I have three questions...

[dcavanaugh]

I can easily believe "Don Funk" as a generic name for all kinds of examples. However, if you think about the context in which it was used for this article, someone would have to log on to a computer as "Don Funk" in order to have that folder show up in "Documents and Settings". Maybe that's exactly what was done.

I don't think it's a total lie, but it's not a story about someone who voluntarily decided to switch, paid full street price for everything, figured out the details on her own, and enjoyed the process. As the truth leaks out, it looks more and more like an "Astroturf" campaign. Someone should send her a set of Red Hat 8.0 CDs for that laptop of hers. RH 8 works great on my IBM Thinkpad.

I think the "switch" was heavily subsidized by M$, and someone other than Ms. Mallinson may have assisted with the technical details of "switching". I don't mean to belittle her technical skills, but the article was a bit more detailed that I would expect from a freelance writer who is supposed to be an XP newbie.

Re:All I can say is...

[Hard_Code]

STOOOPAD! YOU SOO STOOOPAD!

ROFLMAO! I love a good UHF reference.

Yeah, leave it to slashdot to not get it and mark it a troll.

Name Change?

[Twintop]

Maybe M$ should become B$?

AOL did the same thing

[destinyland]

In 1994 AOL published a slick 30-page promotional brochure profiling four new members. They also made them up -- prompting much derision in alt.aol-sucks.

---
Destiny-land.
The happiest blog on earth.

M$ needs to rethink their policy

[MalleusEBHC]

From the .doc on M$'s site:
Microsoft will not share the information you provide with third parties without your permission except where necessary to complete the services or transactions you have requested, or as required by law.

Yeah, and they most definitely won't distribute a Word document to a half million geeks on Slashdot that shows among other things your name, your email address, your website (for which the whois provides all your information), and the fact that you wrote the article about switching to Windows using Office X on Mac OS X.

irony

[jnana]

is it just me, or does anybody else find it hilariously funny that the woman was tracked down because her name was hidden deep in the Word file ShowOffYourSkills.doc, even though she had 'deleted' it (she thought). When will people stop trusting Microsoft with anything of importance?

Valerie Mallinson is all these people?

[Hyped01]

Valerie admits to being the secret MAC person... but is she also admitting to being the rest of the people?

Valerie Mallinson (Wes Rataushk & Assc Inc) is also apparently the author of:

MS EnCarta FUD Paper

... meaning she's a black male 7th grader. Or a white female married adult... or perhaps she is a group of 4 older people of varied ethnicities. Cant print? You're probably running MS Windoze XP and are pretty screwed!

Either Valerie has multiple diverse personalities or all or most of these "submissions" are penned by her and falsly attributed to others.

-Rob

Re:Valerie Mallinson is all these people?

[handsomepete]

This feeds the likely possiblility that this PR person just took the fall for something that was probably just a composite PR release. It's funny that she got tracked down by a submission form (a Microsoft info form no less) which should've been completely and totally unrelated to the 'Switch' ad - they never claim that the 'Switcher' wrote the form for you to submit. I imagine she just jumped the gun after someone checked the .doc info and said, "Yep, I did it" to cover their asses.

Besides, at the bottom of both the Encarta FUD paper and the Switch ad, it says, "Do you have an idea for a story?" which is all these are; stories, not testimonials. No testimonial in the world will you give you step-by-step directions on how to set up dial-up networking. I failed to see anything that claims that these are real testimonials from real people (unless someone wants to correct me).

Not that I don't think this is real real funny, I'm just sayin'...

Re:Valerie Mallinson is all these people?

[KH]

From the link you quoted:

It Is a Far, Far Better Paper Than I Have Ever Written

This is hilarious. Good that his PC didn't start ``beep beep beep''

More about Val Mallinson

[Slur]

She helped David Mozer to acquire, configure, and troubleshoot a PocketPC for his bicycle trip in Malawi, Africa "in October." (Last year?)

http://www.ibike.org/bikeafrica/malawi/

Frankly the Microsoft Switcher article was embarrassing for a host of reasons besides the use of clip-art and a hired PR professional who is obviously an experienced user of Windows.

It's abundantly clear that Val has never used Mac OS X. All her raves about Windows XP were about features which exist - and are much easier to use - in Mac OS X.

For example, her excitement about being able to get Windows installed and configured "in under a day" is laughable. In 90% of cases Mac OS X can be installed and configured in under an hour.

Bringing up Netscape as if it was the default browser on Mac OS was likewise a foolish gaffe. Most Mac OS users (9 and X) use Internet Explorer 5 as their web browser. Why would Val have chosen Netscape? Could it be she had only used Mac OS 8/9 at work where Netscape was pre-installed?

Comparing the FREE AppleWorks to the $300-$500 Microsoft Office is a staggering faux pas - especially since Office v.X is generally considered superior to Office for Windows. (And who in the world likes Office's annoying hide-and-seek menus? I like my menus to stay consistent, and keep that feature turned off on my Windows box.)

Finally, all the step-by-step instructions for migrating documents and Favorites were a glaring exposure of the complexity of Windows XP. The instructions for the same migrations to Mac OS X are only half as long.

Alas, this was an amateurish article by an uninformed PR-lackey. Microsoft should know better than to try to pull the wool over our ever-watchful eyes.

Re:More about Val Mallinson

[skubalon]

She has been associated with MS since at least '98.

Although this isn't all that surprising.

Re:More about Val Mallinson

[Lysander Luddite]

Everybody assumes she was using X. I'm not convinced. Either that or the article was deliberately giving the impression that X doesn't have those features.

Even if she was using 8/9 Netscape is not the default browser. Nor ahs it been since the deal with Gates in '97. She would actually have to seek out the program to use Netscape.

I'm sure the whole thing is modus operandi for any company nowadays.

Re:More about Val Mallinson

[HamNRye]

Val: Do you think MS will like this copy I wrote for their anti-switch campaicn??

Boss: Throw in a jab at Netscape's expense. That always gets his Billness cooing.

Is microsoft really this threatened by the switch campaign?? (that made me decide not to buy a Mac thank god...)

IF MS really wants some converts:

-Fix the user and gdi problems. Get a working virtual memory subsystem.
-Stop designing OS'es to phone home. 18 ways your WinXP box connects to Microsoft out of the box. Geez, leave me some bandwidth for porn...
-Implement actual local permissions. Secure the admin password, stop local shatter attacks, improve SMB security.
-Charge reasonable prices. Upgrade for $49, new install $99. Other OS companies manage this pricing over 1% of the market. MS should be able to do it with 95% of the market. Oh, wait, I never pay for Microsoft software anyway....

Val: How do I create a PDF on my PC??

Boss: Just use the Mac over in the corner.

~Hammy

leave M$ alone

[b17bmbr]

you know, with all their troubles with security, patches, linux, anti-trust trials, and everything, they just don't have the time to find people who have benefitted using their products. i mean, come on, there must be one.

surely, you can cut them some slack. ballmer is up late at night thinking of more ways he can attack linux/open source. with 40 billion in the bank, they just can't aford to do the necessary research and investigation. give them a break will you.

i'm sure there are plenty of people who'll testify that they learned how to program using "Learn Visual Basic" and are now working at a major software company.

Re:not the first time a .doc has betrayed its crea

[uhoreg]

Actually, a slashdotter pointed it out to him.

Broadband cable dialup?

[coolfrood]

"All the Mac hardware--including my printer, broadband cable, Zip drive, and Palm handheld--works perfectly with my Windows-based PC."
blah blah blah....
"The New Connection Wizard then guided me through the setup of my Internet connection for browsing the Web."
Hey!! I want to dial into my cable provider too. Does XP actually let me do that???

You are so right my friend

[codepunk]

But then again my company does not manufacture software and thus it is a expense of doing business. We do however produce a durable good and since I can get the job done with linux I will price your ass right out of the market with the money I saved.

You see just how simple that plays out.

it looks like...

[luap2000]

...you're trying to lie. Would you like some help? ;)

the cache has stopped working!

[squarefish]

it only refreshes to the page not found on M$'s site now!

2 Years?

[ackthpt]

I can't imagine it lasting that long, however, the bumbling way they continue to handle such faux pas is indeed timeless. It's like Microsoft needs to hire a few cynics to review what they're up to and weigh their gripes.

I mean, Coca Cola is a popular drink, but you don't see them claiming it builds muscle or makes your penis/breats grow. Such a claim, besides immediately inviting scrutiny, would be so out of character with their product it would make people stop and question why they actually do drink it.

The best marketing machine Microsoft has is dingbat leader types in public and private sectors who shove Office down the throats of companies, because everyone else is doing it (wow, such leadership!) Microsoft needs to cultivate these people (Repeat after me, "Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft") and less draw attentions to what they really are doing. For such a successful company, they sure can act foolishly and that doesn't help them any.

Re:2 Years?

[jovlinger]

I know what you mean, but eventually, people DID get fired for buying IBM. IIRC, it was compaq that finally falsified that truism.

Re:2 Years?

[ackthpt]

An executive decision, where I work, has us adopting .NET Geez. Talk about an utter copy of Java. Worse, I can't see many other people jumping on this bandwagon, because the .NET framework isn't anywhere near as distributed as the JVM, i.e. you have to download it (20Meg) or have XP (or 2000?) with the framework already installed for it to be of much use. Java's got such a leg up, it would suffice to say there are already Java Legacy shops.

It'll probably work ok for internal applications, but books and such are still so new that few are of much help (since many books are written prior to the release and may pertain to Beta features and lack later enhancements.)

Re:2 Years?

[MaxVlast]

Are you fuckin' kidding, man? What people have on their machines now has nothing to do with what they have tomorrow. What stands in they way of .NET's ascendance? 20MB? That's nothing in the world today. People will scoff at that barrier to entry. Hell: Microsoft has already won if that's the difference; Windows doesn't come with a Java VM. Want it? You have to download it. Want .NET? You have to download it. They're starting from the same place, which means Microsoft wins. We lose. Game over! They're the person in motion, not Java. Java is old, .NET is new, sexy, and as far away as the hoary old technology. We lose! Game over!

Shit, it makes me just want to go to bed and forget about what I've been working on all day.

Re:2 Years?

[Wdomburg]

>I mean, Coca Cola is a popular drink, but you
>don't see them claiming it builds muscle or makes
>your penis/breats grow.

Three words. Coke. Adds. Life. :)

Matt

Re:2 Years?

[susano_otter]

Any time our datacenter does a major change, we convene a change management board consisting of sysadmins who will be doing or supervising the work, and our customer entities who will be affected by the work. Before the board meets, we hold a pre-board that is open to all sysadmins only, where those sysadmins who are not involved in the work hand out a brutal technical beating to the sysadmins who are involved.

In this way, we ensure that the guys doing the work have already fielded all the hard questions the customers are likely to ask; we have all our ducks in a row, all our research done, and we sound prepared, competent, and damn smoov, if I say so myself, in front of our customers. It sounds like MS marketing could stand to try something similar.

Unless, of course, they're using Slashdot for this purpose, in which case my suggestion is redundant.

Re:2 Years?

[MaxVlast]

I was _really_ drunk, so I'll cut through the ranting. He said that .NET will never catch on because you have to download the environment. The cleverness of Microsoft's move makes me smile even this morning: They removed the built-in Java VM from Windows, so you have to download it, too. That puts precisely the same barrier of inconvenience between .NET and Java. Sly, ain't it?

Re:2 Years?

[MaxVlast]

Yea, but Pepsi brings your ancestors back from the grave. The choice is obvious: The Choice of the New Generation©®.

Re:The truth be told

[Viadd]

Apple stole the GUI from Xerox

No, Apple bought the GUI from Xerox, then improved it.

Re:The truth be told

[OneFix]

Agreed...I remembered an interesting story about M$ paying off a C= developer for access to AmigaOS 2.0 because they had already dropped Amiga Basic...which let them have the source to all AmigaOS versions up to 1.2?/1.3?...

Of course, look at WorkBench 2.0 and tell me that 95's "3D" interface isn't based on it...

But, credit has to be given to Xerox for being the REAL first, but it's also worth mentioning that the Amiga's OS was exteremely advanced for it's time...there are actually "Modern OS's" that haven't implimented the features in 3.0...(DataTypes kick a$$!!!)...and when will I be able to have a mouse pointer that's more than just "Black & White" again??? (this is supposed to be slated for XF86 5.0)

The 13 year old script kiddie crowd is smarter...

[Futurepower(R)]

"Because the 13 year old script kiddie crowd wouldn't stoop that low."

The "13 year old script kiddies" are smart enough to remove not only the web page, but the files to which it links. Not Microsoft. You can still download the original files, using the original links, which I copied from the source of the original page (my italics):

Do you have an idea for a story? We'd love to hear from you. How have you used Microsoft software to make your home or work life easier, more fun, faster, or simpler? Submit your ideas, and you could get published on the Insider Web site! Submit Your Idea Today!

• Download the submission form in Adobe PDF format (ShowOffYourSkills.pdf, 64kb)
• Download the submission form in Word format (ShowOffYourSkills.doc, 27kb)"

Note that, if you look at the binary of the .DOC file, you can see this:

Comments To Valerie Mallinson (Wes Rataushk & Assc Inc)

A google search says Wes Rataushk & Associates, Inc is located at 5904 105th Ave NE, Kirkland, Washington. If you are in the area, stop by to joke with them about their business ethics.

It seems likely that someone downloading and submitting the form would have no chance of getting their story published because Wes Rataushk & Associates is paid to write them.

I try to help people have a balanced view of Microsoft: http://www.hevanet.com/peace/microsoft.htm.

who's that AP guy, anyway?

[Twirlip of the Mists]

I'm posting this so late, it's unlikely that anybody will read it. But I thought you guys might be interested to know just who, exactly, wrote this article for the AP.

His name is Ted Bridis. I'll quote him here.

I work in our Washington bureau, along with about 60 other reporters and
about 30 photographers, and have been covering Microsoft as a technology
writer since 1998 (I worked for the Wall Street Journal as a tech
reporter here in DC from 2000-2001 then came back to AP). I was the only
reporter to interview Gates during the antitrust trial, and I broke the
story about Oracle hiring private detectives to dig through the trash of
Microsoft's allies.

I decide which stories to cover based on what's newsworthy, in my
judgment and in the judgment of our editors. Ideally, a story we latch
onto will end up on the front page of many of the world's newspapers.
(In this case, although I anticipate the story will get pretty
reasonable "play," it's doubtful it would end up on p1 anyplace).

So this guy, who's evidently been around the block a few times, thought this story was worth covering. That's saying something, I think.

He also says that the story could contine developing in the morning. He asks us to stay tuned.

Mamma Mia My Karma

[hackus]

Honestly..

If Microsoft doesn't stop this sort of crap I am going to loose all my Microsoft ANTI Karma which people regularly give me a 5 or plus on...

I mean...why read ANY of Hackus's posts when Microsoft keeps putting fodder like this in the Web Machine that is Slashdot to turn out absolutely positively A PLUS quality entertainment.

More than a poor match for Hackus and his rants!! :-)

Hack

PR Mania

[Jason Earl]

From what I have seen of Microsoft's PR mania I would actually be surprised if they could find someone in Western Washington that wasn't a Microsoft PR person.

MS Doesn't Get To Let This One "go away"...

[Omega]

By tomorrow most people will have forgotten about it,

No, actually I think the mainstream media will pick up on this one tomorrow. C-Net and Ziff-Davis are a little slow on the uptake. Give 'em a day, it'll be smeared all over the print and online mags. Give the New York Times and the Washington Post a little bit more time on this one. They'll get around to it (incidently, did anyone see the slashdot article in the NY Times today?). But no, Microsoft doesn't get to let this one "disappear." They tried to be clever (though it was pretty suspect from the beginning) and they found themselves caught in a lie. I think this is just the sort of thing that everyone needs to know.

except the thousands of slashdot users that will make references to it anytime a MS article is posted for the next 2 years.

Damn straight. Just like the bit about the USS Yorktown. It's called upfront disclosure. Microsoft calls it the price they pay for being #1. Don't think slashdot will let them skip out on the check.

simple...yes, of course..foolish me

[djupedal]

Why didn't you just come out and say that in the first place :)

I guess as a beleagured PC user, you felt diminished and needed a bit of prodding, which is normal, and completely understandable, so don't feel too bad. If you would have just come out and said how you felt at the beginning, I wouldn't have gone this long before I elected to ignore the Honorable Dunce from PC Ville...heheheh.

You're awfully hard on yourself, arguing against an analogy you brought into the conversation. Might that PC you're using be causing a bit of stress? ...heheheh...choke...sorry.

LOL...you've actually made my day, thanks!

Re:simple...yes, of course..foolish me

[G-funk]

You're awfully hard on yourself, arguing against an analogy you brought into the conversation. Might that PC you're using be causing a bit of stress? ...heheheh...choke...sorry.

Hmmm, perhaps you should brush up on your comprehension skills and read the thread again?

old guard - new guard

[dcobbler]

I hate to get all deep and philosophical but this is so deliciously "old guard" vs. "new guard". The old guard PR hacks who put this together must be struck dumb by how this has played out. Think about it for a second. Their esoteric tricks that they've been using for years have turned around and bitten them to the core. They put together what they thought was some appropriately stylized words with an appropriate picture from a stock agency. In the old days, stock agencies were the province of specialists and now, some smart person is able to find the *exact same picture* and link to it alongside their little piece of PR trickery.

It gets worse. In the old days, once a piece of their work was published, it was cast in stone, so to speak. The public only saw what the PR folks wanted them to see and didn't see anything that might have been held back. But today, another smart person is able to delve into that sacrosanct PR document and find out all sorts of names and addresses that should have been (from the perspective of the PR hacks) forever kept secret!

It really is a new world, don't you think?

dcobbler
www.digitalcobbler.com

Making the switch to the UnixPC...

[SuperJ]

October 14, 2002

Yes, it's true. I like obsolete technology enough to change my whole computing world around. Here's the bottom line: the UnixPC gives me more choices and flexibility, and better compatibility with the rest of the technology world.

More Hardware Options, for Less Benjamins (or free)

I am a computer engineer. I demand the best in desktop computers. There are many features for the UnixPC platform. My UnixPC came with 1 Megabyte of RAM, a 12" screen, a 20 Megabyte hard drive, a 360 Kilobyte disk drive, a 1200 baud modem for lightning fast connections over a phone line, and a Voice Power board, which allows me to record sounds on the computer. Entirely free. And the UnixPC runs UnixPC OS 3.51, based on AT&T's System V Release 4.

More Software Flexibility

Microsoft Word pales in comparison to vi. There's no equivalent to the versatility of typing with vi and formatting with troff. It does ASCII text formatting for maximum standards compliance. My AT&T dot-matrix printer prints all my code listings with stunning clarity.

The additional "Ethernet" board allows the UnixPC to connect to other computers on your network, or even to the "Internet," a new and growing global network of computers. Telnet does more for me than Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 ever did, allowing me to directly connect and enter commands into remote computers.

How Now Brown Cow?

Now that I've given you the reasons why I converted, here's the 411 on the how, dig it.

Step 1: Operating System Install
The first time I turned on my UnixPC, the UnixPC prompted me to insert the install media. I sat for only an hour, putting floppy after floppy into the computer, while the system copied them to disk. It's like that time I owned a Pinto, and I kept feeding it more and more parts and spending more and more money until it eventually worked.

Step 2: Setting up Accounts
After I installed the operating system and rebooted, my UnixPC asked me to login. I logged in with the installation account, and I was brought into the UnixPC's "Windowing" environment. I easily created myself an account and set the root password.

Step 3: Setting up "E-Mail"
Once I installed the Voice Power board and its driver software, I also installed the Voice E-mail package. E-mail (or Electronic Mail) is a way for people to send each other messages over the Internet. The Voice E-mail package allows you to use your UnixPC as an answering machine, once the answering machine software is installed. When a message is recorded, an envelope icon shows up at the top right of the screen. Clicking on this icon brings you to your Inbox, where the new message will appear as a new E-mail. In the Inbox, you can also compose and send messages to other users, all you need to know is their UUCP bang path.

The AT&T UnixPC has all the features a 17 year old computer should have.

AT&T's UnixPC: The Computer With The Future Built In.

I'm Bored

[shepd]

Waiting for a DVD to rip.

So:

Go buy any old digital camera and try to download the pics on a RedHat system.

Go buy a DVD-R and try to burn a disc.

Go to any old website showing media (RealPlayer, QuickTime, Windows Media) and see how successful you are at viewing content.

Buy a Firewire DV Video Camera and see how successful you are in getting the video off and editing it.

Try to visit a site that's made for IE.
Go to the store and buy a game. (I'll give you these -- VmWare and other solutions are a serious bitch to setup, and don't work well except in certain Distros)

Buy a PDA and get it to synch up.

Your network card doesn't work, find somebody you know willing to come over and fix it. (Huh? If the card is broken, even your God(s) ain't/aren't gonna fix it.)

>The steps to do any of the above in Windows are very easy

Uhhh, sure... I mean, I mean, if you want to have every two or three DVDs come out as coasters (happens with Prassi Primo DVD for me) sure. Or if you want to use crappy outdated camera software that just lets you easily download one picture at a time through a slow ass serial connection, great (Fuji MX-1200). I've never done DV, but Kino doesn't look too hard. Or you can try Cinerella, which seems more full featured and easier.

>When a DVD-Burner manufacturer is swamped with "Uhh where's the Linux Drivers?"

DVD-R in linux doesn't use "drivers", unless you count the built in generic SCSI support built in linux (since well before DVD was available for most PCs) as a "driver". Try saying that about windows. Especially windows 9x...

HTH. And take it from me, there's NO software in windows that lets you use a Celeron 300 to burn DVD-R at 2x and surf the 'net at the same time.

Linux's motto should be "Spend some time now -- Then do more, quicker".

Theft of Trust Should Be a Crime

[serutan]

"Trustworthy Computing is the highest priority for all the work we are doing."
Bill Gates, Jan 15, 2002.

Really, Bill? Is that why you are disguising advertising as customer feedback? To promote trust? Or is it that customers trust each other more than they trust you, so you'll just pretend to be customers and steal some of that trust?

"Theft of trust" - that has a nice ring to it, don't you think? Or how about trust infringement, or trust piracy?

This isn't just a Microsoft thing, it's a good illustration of the absolute contempt people with a lot of money often have for the rest of the world. We are nothing, and lying to us means nothing. If you own enough of the law, getting caught doesn't even mean much.

Corporate America is cutting its own throat day after day. Whether it's inventing demographic data or telling accountants what to make 2 and 2 add up to, every crooked move blackens another tooth in the shining smile. Trustworthy Computing isn't going to be a commercial product, Bill, because you guys just can't be trusted.

read it again

[djupedal]

My reference was to something that didn't previously exist, and only later became an industry standard.

You, then, proceeded to change the subject...

Your's was to compare expensive auto's with less costly means of transportation (don't get what you pay for, etc.), and then to proceed to trash Macs. Since I didn't make that analogy, your argument was with yourself.

PC owner: anti-mac and cheap... I get it. I wonder how many are just cheap.

Would you own a Mac is someone gave it to you?

Re:read it again

[G-funk]

Of course I would. I'd like a mac. Not because I think they're cool, because they run OSX. If they cost the same I'd have a mac right now. However I have too many other meat-space expenses to justify doubling the price of my computer simply to run OSX. I'm not cheap, I'm just not particularly rich atm. If I had 10grand to spend on a computer I'd spend it on my car.

I hate the NYT.

[Inoshiro]

Thankfully so do a lot of other people, so I was able to use a nice random-login generator to retrieve it:

Site for the Truly Geeky Makes a Few Bucks
By JOHN SCHWARTZ

The front door to the office of Slashdot bears a nerdy little joke. A computer key is glued to the door: "Enter." The other side of the door has an old "Return" key.

That's the geeky essence of Slashdot.org, an online publication with a fanatical community of millions of readers that combines a rich view of technology with quick, off-kilter wit.

Could it be that this is the 21st-century model for Internet publishing?

The highest-flying print publications of the dot-com bubble burbled about technology and the businesses that it fertilized. But now they and their glossy paper have fallen to earth. Just last week, Forbes ASAP and Upside joined the once-fat Industry Standard in the glossies' graveyard. "There is no market for a dedicated new-economy publication," said Monie Begley, a spokeswoman for Forbes.

But far away from the buzz and the glamour, Slashdot survives and thrives. Run out of a basement office in a suburb of Ann Arbor, Mich., Slashdot has remained true to the slogan: "News for nerds. Stuff that matters."

The secret to the online publication's moderate success? "They didn't buy a Super Bowl ad," joked Sean Bergeron, a fan from Virginia.

It's a little more complicated than that, but not much. The company keeps its expenses low. Its creators write about what interests them. And -- here's where the business model may not be everyone's cup of Bawls Guarana energy drink -- they don't seem to care if the operation actually makes any money.

Publishing without paper is cheap and cheap is good, said Richard Seltzer, an Internet entrepreneur and author of "Web Business Boot Camp: Hands-on Internet Lessons for Managers, Entrepreneurs and Professionals" (Wiley, 2002). He said online publications like Slashdot could flourish "in a down market, and especially when the market for online advertising is in disastrous shape."

Slashdot persists as a must-read publication for the wizardly set, and especially those within the community of developers and fans of "open source" software like Linux, which is created and improved by legions of volunteers. The Web site provides the technically inclined a place to keep up with news, submit articles on their own, and discuss it all at length that can make a neophyte's head throb. The 25-year-old creators of the site, Rob Malda and Jeff Bates, estimate that in their five years online they have published 30,000 articles, served 500 million pages and amassed an audience estimated at 2 million people -- including some 50,000 who regularly enter the continuing conversation at least once a month.

"Slashdot is the best site in the world for techies that want to know," said Daniel Hedblom, a reader in Sweden.

The site's editors look for news and interesting sites, and cull hundreds of daily free submissions from readers and then edit and post a dozen or so articles each day. Those pieces are short, rarely more than 200 words, and offer links to other Web sites or news reports. The discussions then can go on for hundreds and even thousands of postings by readers, offering comment, argument and further research. Those who want to post without using their names are allowed to, but the system automatically gives them the user name "anonymous coward."

And, of course, there is the goofy stuff. Along with arcane discussions of software technology and licensing schemes, the editors post gleeful critiques of Microsoft and its wares, and approving commentary on pop/nerd culture, including Natalie Portman, Aibo robot dogs, Lego projects and fun science projects.

The creators also let pictures substitute for a thousand words. Small icons are attached to each item, including a much-used image of Bill Gates made up to look like a Star Trek Borg -- a race of half-man, half-machine beings that spreads across the universe and whose members drone: "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated." It conveys everything that the geekerati think about the software mogul Mr. Gates.

"They have this fun combination of total geek cred and a good editor's eye for the weird and interesting and compelling," said Michael Hirschorn, senior vice president of news and production at the cable channel VH1, and co-founder of the late Inside.com, which was an online report on the world of media.

Mr. Hirschorn applauded Slashdot's "very smart balancing act," which he characterized as "appealing in a very intimate, direct way with its core audience and figuring out a way to branch out into other topics, like intellectual property, that would appeal to a broader audience."

He suggested, however, that any comparison between large business efforts like his Inside site and Slashdot were misleading. Slashdot's creators don't really "measure themselves as a business. They can meaure themselves as a cause," he said. "The fact that it's turned out to be a modest business is a happy surprise."

Does Slashdot, in fact, make money? Its owners say, yes, sort of. The site is owned by Open Source Development Network Inc., a subsidiary of the VA Software Corporation. Open Source runs a number of technology-related Web sites and an online store, ThinkGeek.

Richard French, senior vice president and general manager for Open Source, declined to break out the income of any one component of the company, except to say, "Slashdot works from a cost point of view and from a revenue perspective."

In fact, he acknowledged, "If you took any one of them on their own, probably none of them would be profitable," he said of Open Source's various Web sites.

But because many of the sites use the same hardy, low-maintenance software developed by Mr. Malda and his team, and because the Internet resources are pooled, the company says it is able to squeeze out a profit from the cluster, and makes further profits from sites that it sets up for businesses.

The sites have a combined audience of some six million people, Mr. French said, and a sizable number of those visitors go to ThinkGeek. The store offers a range of goods that techies love, including T-shirts with the logos of Slashdot and other affiliated sites, like Freshmeat and SourceForge, as well as shirts and caps that bear representations of the chemical structure of caffeine; caffeine-spiked candies; and even caffeine-saturated soap.

"Apparently, our readers need caffeinated soap," Mr. Malda said.

The arrangement works, Mr. French said, because the corporate owners do not interfere in the editorial decisions of the Slashdotters. "I don't go down and say, `Rob I want you to write about this,' " he said. "Rob understands his community."

Mr. Malda added: "I still think of it as my personal soapbox. If I decide next Thursday that `It's all about Windows!' I don't know if Slashdot would follow that -- but I would keep posting it and posting it until they fire me."

Mr. Malda and Mr. Bates met in high school in Holland, Mich., and went on to attend the local Hope College, where Mr. Malda created the site. He was soon joined in the effort by Mr. Bates, the way that kids in the old Judy Garland-Mickey Rooney movies put on a show with friends. They were stunned by the site's popularity, and even more stunned when it actually made money.

They once had visions of dot-com wealth of their own, and had immense paper profits when their site was bought in 1999 by the Open Source Development Network, then known as Andover.net. Open Source was then sold the next year to VA Linux (which later changed its name to VA Software). The 2000 transaction was, for a heady moment, valued at $975 million. That's when the company's stock was worth nearly $250 a share. These days, VA Software's stock trades for around 75 cents a share.

Mr. Bates said his stock did not make him rich, but he was able to sell some shares.

"Not as many as I would have liked," he said, "but that's the nature of lockup" -- the clauses that restrict a corporate insider's ability to sell newly acquired stock. "At the end of the day, I was able to buy a house, and hey, I'm not going to complain about that."

Fans of the site are ready, even impatient, for more.

One of the messages posted to the discussion of passing the five-year mark last month was a simple three words: "O.K., now what?"

Re:I hate the NYT.

[ellboy]

Just because you hate them doesn't give you the right to republish their articles. The NYT doesn't HAVE to provide free, online versions of their articles, but they do, so have some decency, and do the free reg. if you want to read their stuff.

this is just weird...

[His Nastiness]

As I write this there are about 538 responses to this post or to the responses to this post. At this point reading them is not feasible but things seem to be breaking down into two areas: 1) The windows vs. OSX/Mac vs. linux arguments that are common curency around here 2) The "Oh my GOD! Microsoft used a model in an add and quoted someone who might not be entirely objective in their opinion!?!?!?" To those who fall in the first camp I'm glad to see that you are all alive and well and its like a breath of fresh air everytime I see M$, Windoze or Microsuck. It's sort of like when the guy at the office says "Ohhhh BEHAVE!" as if it were still funny. To those that fall in the second camp I'd like you to sit down for a second. There is no Santa Claus, your mom may not have loved you best and Wilford Brimley didn't do the goddam oatmeal commercials becuase he loved oatmeal. They paid him. Yup, it's true. The Abe Lincoln you see in the car adds around President's Day? Not the real president. It's not a lie its advertising. I can't believe this is a story to the /. crowd. -Nasty

Re:this is just weird...

[torgosan]

Got to give you points for the insight but...

"It's not a lie its advertising."

Maybe it's just me but what's the difference?

not original

[kscd]

I knew MS was bad at designing software, but it looks like they can't even be orginal at designing an ad campaign...

best line

[puddytat]

"A spokeswoman from Apple Computer would not comment"

the mental image I get is from someone laughing so hard she CAN not comment.

Double-tricks

[IamTheRealMike]

Microsoft really missed a trick here. The fact is, millions upon millions of people switched from the Mac to Windows, around the time Win95 came out. I think the Mac once had, what, 40% market share? Now it's 4% (barely, only 0.4% if you only count OSX machines)

Ohh, but that was years ago you say, Macs don't suck anymore. OK, fair point, but why should this stop MS Marketing? Bear in mind the Apple ads talk about stuff like blue screens (i think they have a whole ad devoted to them) despite the fact that if you go out and buy a brand name PC with XP preloaded (so you don't have dodgy hardware combos) you will never see a blue screen. I have XP at work, using it now, and have not seen a blue screen on it ever. That's a solved problem, yet Apple keep harping on about it.

Why? Because it's got a reputation. Marketing is about perceptions, and the perception is Windows == BSODs. Yet for many, many users, "Mac" reminds them of the POS that was System 8 or whatever it was called, and they "switched" to Windows for very good reasons.

Anyway, it's worth remembering the post in the earlier story by Dr Spork - Apple is not serious competition to Microsoft. I think something like 80% of computers are in business? Don't recall where I read that statistic, but Apple have practically zero business presence. Lockin is too strong, and Apple are on MS life support anyway - and even with Microsoft helping them to fix bugs in OS X they still need help from the open source movement too! If Apple were to become a threat, you are guaranteed Microsoft would not be pissing about with ridiculous web pages (not even a tv ad). They'd do something about it, like they did back in the days.

You can VOTE for this story.

[VValdo]

Check out the bottom of the story--

Would you recommend this story?
Not at all 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5

Yahoo members, you can mod this one up!!!

W

Yahoo! got another lie.

[dackroyd]

"It was an actual customer," spokeswoman Charmaine Gravning said. "We kind of figured out that really isn't the best way to go about communicating. "

Oops, no it's not....btw is there an advertising standards agency in the US ? In the UK there's a government body set up to slap companies for exactly this behaviour.

Re:Yahoo! got another lie.

[sh00z]

is there an advertising standards agency in the US ?

No, each state has its own deceptive trade practices laws (generally enforced by the State Attorney General). Connecticut nailed Sony for very similar behavior to what MS is up to here.

That was -too- funny

[Aqua OS X]

Wow, I that artical made me laugh -so- hard. Does Microsoft have ANY shame?

It's as if Microsoft's shamelessness was so huge that I can't single out a witty smart-a** comment to toss up here. My brain doesn't quite know which was funnier, the stock Getty Images, the 8 year old kid that can write at a college level, the woman who works for MS PR, the fact that anyone would find a Windows box easier to use.

I'm going to archive that google cache and print it up for my "Wall of Shame" at work. The *nix geeks will love it ;)

MacOS and Linux are closing in on M$.

[Qbertino]

I've allways seen it come. I have no doubt that by now M$ has serious problems appearing on their horizon if they really want to keep up the inhouse software only strategy.
People don't by PCs a dime a dozen anymore, and to all sides those who professionally deal with computers are switching to Mac or Linux so to use their older Hardware and have all software for intercomputer work in one package rather than shelling out bundles of bucks for M$ software addons. Just the other day a friend of mine got feed up and ditched XP for SuSE Linux Pro.

All you'll ever need in one box.
No license issues.
High performant and cheap.
No need to ever learn to handle yet another new OS.

And for design jobs?
Well of course you take a Mac.
M$ will either buy RedHat some day or move to appliances and an AOL like 'community' - but they're not gonna sustain a serious Software buisness - not this way at least.

Re:Perhaps she didnt switch...

[Chris Johnson]

Oh, that would be just way too unbearably funny if that campaign was Made on a Mac (tm) ;)

I can see the *next* ad now. . .

[kfg]

Switch to Windows, more Microsoft employees chose it than any other brand!

KFG

Re:not the first time a .doc has betrayed its crea

[Des Herriott]

Reminds me of a small company I used to work for, where most everyone insisted on using MS-Word format for email, much to the annoyance of us Unix operational types. Still, strings worked pretty well to get the gist of the text (this was quite some time before Openoffice etc.)

One day, we received a fairly innoccuous memo from our CEO. However, running strings on the document showed an interesting little "hidden" addendum: details of annual pay increases for pretty much the whole company.

My boss pointed this out to him in private. A few minutes later, a decree was issued: plain text is the standard email format, and thou shalt not use Word. A good day, that was.

What Small Businesses are YOU talking About

[EvilTwinSkippy]

I too do a bit of consulting for small businesses. The ones I generally deal with want absolutely NOTHING to do with the technology. They just want the damn thing to work.

My clients are generally sole proprieterships who are getting on the web. Very few have the $60k to dump into "An Exchange Server, a MSSQL server, and a Dell Rack Mount running Win 2k." Their budget is a white-box athlon running RedHat and MySQL.

They will pay for hardware, because you generally purchase it once and it has a clear ROI. Most small business owners I deal with are delighted to find they don't have to pay for the software, beyond my time to customize it. Very few if any actually have any IT staff, so training is less of an issue than "can this machine run unattended for months at a time?"

The story has made it to the BBC

[deepstephen]

It's appeared on BBC News now, and there's a link back to /. too. Is this a first? Are they trying to give Slashdot a taste of its own Slashdotting medicine? :-)

Complain to MS

[Gothmolly]

I did. I sent them a detailed letter why their page was technically flawed as well as underhanded marketing. Let them know that they're suffering for this kind of FUD.

BBC

[Spunk]

The BBC is also covering this story, with credit given to Slashdot.

"not a real person"?

[jon_eccleston]

This BBC News report claims:

"...the picture of the woman used to illustrate the story was a stock image from the Getty Library and unlikely to be that of a real person." (emphasis mine)

I hope she doesn't have an inferiority complex already, because this kind of talk really won't help...

Ask Val?

[Quixote]

What we need is an 'Ask Slashdot' on this topic. Collect your questions, and then ask Val what the real deal is.

pedophilia search tool?

[Rader]

Anyone notice that microsoft has keywords next to the boy from the stock pictures?

Words like "Pre-Adolescent Child" , "One Boy Only"

Kind of weird.

Too bad...

[SPYvSPY]

...apparently even Microsoft isn't aware that people like you *actually* exist.

Actually, James Gosling Motivated the GPL

[Chris-S]

Richard Stallman wrote the GPL to protect himself (and others) after James Goslings's shenannigans with Gosling Emacs. See the history here

I don't know when Gosling started working at SUN, but I don't think SUN had anything to do with the original creation of the GPL.

BTW, Sun was growing fast, but IBM was the big monopolist of the time (and hadn't yet realized the monster they created in Microsoft).

I think we're ready to take over the world

[WebMasterJoe]

Can we become our own nation? We're now on our way to world domination!

you have no chance to survive make your time!

Re:This just in

[Dalcius]

While I understand your point that I shouldn't be biased towards someone who disagrees with me, there is a difference between stating an opinion, and flaming anyone who dislikes Microsoft while in the same breath calling Linux a communist operating system (while this is true as in Marxist Communism [to a degree IMO, anyway], it has a large negative connotation and that's the way I took it).

I'll respect someone's opinion if it's half-way informed and refrains from seriously flaming others.

Consumer protection? Truth in advertising? ...

[Get Behind the Mule]

... not to mention violation of Valerie Mallinson's privacy.

Has M$ broken a law or two here?

Re:This just in

[Dalcius]

Go back and read some of your previous comments.

Better yet, I'll help you.

Quoth the troll:
---------------
today's activities notwithstanding, VA Linux is headed for the tubes.
Once this POS hits bankruptcy, the Linux as Microsoft-beater movement will be over.

(This ia a real prediction, not a troll).

Calling VA Software a POS, or am I mis-reading? That's not a way to make friends on a VA Software website... gee, ya think?
---------------

" [by running Linux] you also get less than have the features and productivity you'd get from running windows."

While some would call this an opinion, and in a very general sense it can be, this is just a plain retarded statement. Features? Start naming things Linux can't do that Windows can and stop once you hit the half-way mark.

And how about productivity? Well, name something that I can't do on Linux that I need to do to become productive in a "normal environment."

---------------

" [the] left leaning [New York Times] (which has more and more blurred the line between news and commentary with their liberal bias) endorses a communist's OS.

Who's next, the People's Daily?"

There's plenty more in his message history. Prosecution rests.

Re:Certification...

[einhverfr]

I think honestly that pursuing the certification is still worth it. And although I will be going for the Windows 2000 MCSE, it is for an entirely different reason. The NT Server in the Enterprise exam taught me how inadequate NT4 was for the enterprise ;) But with Windows 2000, I can learn strategies for deploying LDAP-based directory services in general. My point is that I pursue certification not for that piece of paper but rather for the learning opportunity.

And lest you think I am supporting Microsoft consider this-- my organization has made the decision to build its network infrastructure entirely on RedHat 8. This includes the desktop computers, but I can still apply what I have learned in both the NT4 and Windows 2000 MCSE exams to this environment. I just have to make sure they are the right lessons. ;-)

This is getting sort of off-topic. Please write me if you want to continue this conversation.

Re:Wouldn't be cool if he died

[Anonvmous Coward]

My claim was really clear, 'retard'. For the 90% of the people out there RedHat's not ready today.

Countering with "I made it work with one example, therefore you're wrong" is not a definitive blow.

I still don't think it's ready. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. The worst case scenario is that RedHat got some badly needed publicity.

For the record, I used Redhat 7.2. It was not near as easy to install as people claimed. It was a bitch finding anything in it (everything starts in K for some reason), and getting it on the net was painful. The only thing I didn't have trouble with was installing Opera.

It's going to be a couple of versions before I try switching again. Others will feel the same.

Re:Associated Press & Yahoo! News Aren't Mains

[MaxVlast]

C'mon, man. That's the reason I switched to a PC in 1997. I got IE with the blink tag. You should see how much more productive I was! All my memos got read! The secretaries all gave me head!

Re:Wouldn't be cool if he died

[Anonvmous Coward]

That's fair. I'd like to drop this topic anyway. I think ppl feel that I'm anti-Linux, I'm not. Im just annoyed that both my attempts to switch were failures. (not intended as another poke at Linux, but a reflection of why this topic bugs me. Im not a fan of MS, but it's the best for me today.)

Re:The 13 year old script kiddie crowd is smarter.

[seanb]

That's right on my way home. I think I'll stop by there and see if they are giving away any Mac hardware, now that she's "switched".

windows user since 98?

[fava]

I wonder if this is the same Val Mallinson referenced in this usenet post.

If she is she has clearly been using windows since 98.

I am very interested...

[Futurepower(R)]

I am very interested to know what they say. I think they might be approached in a friendly way. Then you could tell us all at Slashdot.

Re:Curious quesiton.

[MacDaffy]

The most galling thing about Microsoft is that their dominance could be understood if they were THE BEST at something other than the raw business-end of computing. They've out-maneuvered Apple, DEC, IBM, DrDOS, Netscape, Sun--you all know the list--and they've become the richest, most powerful company in computing.

But they're RUINING the Internet experience for anyone other than those on the platforms they favor. They've "embraced and extended" critical standards for their own advantage (i.e. screwed them up beyond all recognition). As anyone who has worked with SMB will attest, they leave out important technological facts in the specifications that make the term "Common Internet Filing System" (CIFS) a bitter joke. They've coerced the world's computer makers into including their software on most of the new machines sold. They're thriving on technology that they've "adopted." Their security? Laughable, if it weren't so serious. To adapt a line from Peter Bogdanovich's "Paper Moon": "If they've got something cool, you can bet it belonged to somebody else." The majority of their products reek of "The Microsoft Touch" Their products are like a sexually attractive person with a bad dose of the clap.

Again, if they were the best at ANYTHING technological--besides Exploder and their mice, I guess--it would be different. But their work is consistently bloated, shoddy and oversold. They have no problem polishing a turd to make a buck. They just seem to don't know a turd when they see one.

"...No taste," as someone said.

They deserve to be slapped by the federal antitrust court and slapped HARD. They are a drag on the industry as far as innovation is concerned and now they're applying the Microsoft Touch to "The Big Lie." What's next?

Bravo to Slashdot for catching them. Shows the power of thinking for yourself.

Story now carried by the BBC

[horza]

You can see the BBC coverage here.

Phillip.

Re:Wouldn't be cool if he died

[Anonvmous Coward]

Im considering a slightly different solution: VM-Ware. There's a spare copy floating around the office, I intend to give that a go and at least see if I can get used to the environment.

Thanks for the suggestion. :) *Taking it into consideration*