Slashdot Mirror
Anoto-based Pens From Logitech
flanksteak writes "Logitech has announced the IO Pen, a ball-point pen with a memory. You write stuff with the pen, then drop it in its USB cradle and your bad handwriting appears on your PC. The pen is to be released in November. How cool would this be with support for a wireless protocol?" We've run some previous stories about this - no telling how well it actually works until it's tested, though. And at $9.99/notebook, the paper is about three times as expensive as regular paper.
It's not really a pen, per se, since you cannot use it with regular paper. What good is the pen, since it can only be used with the special digital paper?
Just lend this pen to people anytime they need to sign something.
Viola, you've captured their signature and can forge it whenever needed...
1. Lend pen to important people
2. Blackmail and defraud
3. Profit!
In the Portland, Ore area and like card games? Check out: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/portlandgames/
"The IO pen only works when used on location at one of Jupiter's moons"
What about the amount of power this would require? If my guess is correct, it would seem that they are using a USB connection to avoid excessive power consumption during download transmission of data.
come on fhqwhgads
Is 3 times as expensive as something as cheap as paper really that much of a problem for a new technology like this? Compared to most, this isn't so bad.
track7.org has all kinds of interesting stuff!
"How cool would this be with support for a wireless protocol?"
A TPEN), pretty darn cool.
Well, seeing as how Sony Ericsson have already announced a pen using this technology that supports Bluetooth (http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=ERIC_CH
What's the point of the special paper anyway? What makes it special and how does it relate to the storing digitally of what you wrote? I dont' see why regular notebook paper wouldn't suffice for writing stuff down the old school way while the pen digitally stored that information.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
Ok, so I first read the article and do the "Oooo cool". Then I think about it. We have had the pen and paper thing for the Palm, way overpriced. Then things like a Wacom tablet, very cool for drawing but don't try using it to write with. So now we get this. I personally don't see the full use of it. Yeah, I can take written notes in class and get them on my computer but why not just type them in in the first place. I can barly read my handwriting anyway and normally lose my pens. Bought a pack of 7 UniBall pens a month ago, down to about 2.
Logitech has made some really cool stuff lately -- their speakers are an absolute steal and are better at half the price than anything put out by Creative or Klipsch.
.PEN format, however -- and even exported to JPGs, the files are probably too big to be used on PDAs, in emails, and other things.
.NET framework to run -- so much for Linux!
.NET upon you!
Too bad this pen reports in a proprietary
But worst of all, the software that decodes it REQUIRES the
We should write Logitech and request free file formats (like an export to PNG) and free software with open drivers, not some program that forces
You know, I can't even read my own handwriting on regular paper, what good is it going to do if i can download my my own chickenscratch?
Thats why I went to typeing in the first place.
(/local/home/curiosity)-#who -u|grep thecat|cut -c 44-49|xargs kill -9
I believe Wired ran an article on a company that was working on this. I don't believe it was logitech however. Several thousand invisible dots were crammed onto special sheets of paper that the tip of the pen could discern. Each dot was uniquely spaced allowing for the pen to recognize its location on the paper.
Applications including automatic faxing, emailing or saving of documents simply by checking off a box in the corner of the paper. I would like to think it was wireless as well.
I only wish I could remember which issue it was in
-dave
http://millionnumbers.com/ - own the number of your dreams
- Digital paper with Anoto functionality is created by printing a proprietary pattern of very small dots on ordinary paper that is perceived by the eye as a slightly off-white color. The dots have a nominal spacing of 0.3 mm (0.01 inch).
So my first question is: how much writing can it store if it's constantly taking pictures?As you write, the built-in digital camera in the pen continuously takes pictures of the patterned paper. Then, when you place the pen in its cradle, all of your writing is transferred automatically to your PC.
At the risk of sounding unsupportive of new technology, the description of this thing makes it sound a bit kludgy. It appears to basically be an optical-mouse element tracking a regular ballpoint pen.
Of course the ability to digitally record your penstrokes is super cool (and I wonder how much memory is in there? How long could I write before I had to dump it?), but requiring the digital paper to go along with it... well, that smacks of Gillette's approach to razorblades.
Initially, I thought it was going to be some kind of system for actually tracking the literal ball that does the writing. THAT would be neat; normal paper, normal ballpoint pen, and recorded to boot. Then again, I know some optical mice work even without the special patterned mousepad, so I wonder if there's a chance this would work on regular paper...
How does it handle erasing? Can you digitally white-out your mistakes before it is uploaded? It's a neat idea, but I don't see many people using it. The only thing worse than a paper trail is a digital trail.
Oh dear...
First, a poster of someone else's face (facial recognition evasion).
Second, the goey fingerprint duplicator,
now this walk-by signature hacker on a PDA?
What would be next?
Hijacking IRIS pattern (simply stareing at the bathroom mirror)?
Stolen DNA pattern?
There is no solid defense against unrevokable but stolen biometric parameters.
That is according to Logitech.
Slashdotter are stupid and biased.
then I went to the website and learned that unless you use windows its a paperweight. not even a heavy paperweight.
.Net in order to use the thing my desire to have one went out the window.
I didn't even bother to find out how much it was. I really liked the idea at first but upon learning that I need MS IE and
-
I have tested the Sony Ericsson Bluetooth Pen paired with their T68i GSM phone. I was evaluating it for a possible global industrial applicaiton.
I must say that while the concept is great, the technology isn't "there" yet. During my test, I had various tracking problems when filling out a digital paper form.
Also, if a form was successfully filled out, the handwriting resolution was very dim. The image quality was acceptable if the form was filled out in big, bold, and neat manuscript letters.
This might be acceptable for some applications, but daily, our millions of customers have millions of writing styles.
There simply wasn't a way to increase the resolution for productive use with our proprietary industrial OCR engine.
I'm going to keep up with the technology and wait for improvements in this area. The concept is fantastic and I expect the technology will be more refined within a year or so.
If this takes off, then they've created the first PC-based "razor-blade" market - companies make nothing on the razors, all of the (very high) profits are from the blades - outside of printer consumables.
Assuming, of course, that they've patented & copyrighted things well enough to require you to buy Logitech (R) (TM) supplies.
I've always loved Logitech products. If this takes off, then good for them!
Help save the critically endangered Blue Iguana
The subject says it all. Optical mice can track movement on almost ANY surface. Why should this pen be any diffrent? Needing special paper completely ruins this product.
Why is it so hot? Where am I going? What am I doing in this handbasket?
Check here
It didn't do very well, applications never were developed for it. And the handwriting recognition wasn't very good either, but I never took the time to train it. A.T. Cross unfortuantly stopped making it.
It used any notebook, but it had a special back you had to put the notepad in that recieved a signal the pen emitted. It only used serial, but this was back when USB was just showing up on the scene
Why aren't you encrypting your e-mail?
I would much rather have the old trackpad pen recording system... I can use any paper I desire, and just use the magnetic pen over the thin backplane that my paper is on... easier, better and costs less than the overprices $200 + another $200 a month in special paper.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Well, the special paper has dots that are tracked with a camera in the pen. But the question is, why does it need the dots even? My optical mouse doesn't need dots to work.
Of course you might run into focus problems, like if you pulled the pen up it wouldn't know where on the paper it was. There are a number of ways to get around this, such as an ultrasound range finder connected to a focusing lens (pretty expensive tech to put into a pen, but if were already putting cameras in 'em), or an accelerometer or gyroscope position finder.
Lonely?
Find love on the internet
The first true breakthrough in pen technology in 200 years
Er, the ball-point pen invented in 1938 wasn't a "true" breakthrough?
Yeah, I've always thought that ball-point pens were overrated. Fountain pens forever, baby!
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
"How cool would this be with support for a wireless protocol"
Would it be called the BlueInk protocol.
WEll - if they did have one with Wireless capability I am sure the CIA would love a few thousand to give to visiting diplomats and anyone else in general.
Apparently the pen recognizes absolute position on the paper by recognizing x-y coordinate information encoded in the dot pattern.
Well, is every page in the special notebook unique? And is each NOTEBOOK unique?
Suppose you are keeping lists on pages 10, 18, and 26 of a notebook. You add an entry on page 10, flip to page 18, add an entry, flip to page 26, add an entry and download. Now what? Do you see the complete list on page 10 as it appears on the paper? Or do you see a series of separate one-line images?
Suppose you write a note on page 3 of notebook A and then write another note on page 3 of notebook B, when you download them do you see both notes superimposed on page 3 of "the" notebook?
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
We had a somewhat similar piece of hardware for whiteboards, though it didn't require special boards. A suction-cup-equipped sensor stuck on the board and special sleeves fit around the pens. Because we had several sleeves (for several colors) we could get pretty accurate results saved to a nearby, wired desktop. I liked the idea that all the new equipment was non-consumable and we could use our original boards and markers.
If Logitech really wanted to impress me, the paper could be any paper, placed in a small portfolio sleeve with sensors in the corner. If they're using a template printed on the paper, just make it bold and dark, so it's easy to see through the a sheet of notebook paper. I could teach myself to write on the last piece of paper in a notebook and pull the sheet out when done. It would be much more useful to me than trying to justify a $10 notebook every couple of weeks.
I saw the original demoed at CTIA in Orlando earlier this year. Was very impressive when coupled with a bluetooth phone.
.Net ? Yech!
One example used email forms on a pad. You wrote in the different boxes like TO: and SUBJECT: then the message below. When you marked the box checked SEND the message was squirted to the phone via bluetooth, then over the air. You could send text or digital ink which would be included in the email as an attachment.
This looked to tbe the best way to send email if all you had was a phone. No funky predictive spelling do-dads on a standard phone keypad.
The logitech looks like they managed to both dumb-down and encumber the thing. USB cradle? IE?
If the original Anoto pen was available for $199 I'd buy it. No cradle, no 20MB software loads, just use it with your bluetooth phone.
Could someone who knows tell me if it is possible to create a version of this idea that works with regular paper by tracking the ballpoint instead of taking pictures of special digital paper? It almost seems like Logitech has purposefully tied this product to digital paper for the sole purpose of creating recurring income. This reminds me too much of the printer and ink model. There is no way on earth I'm buying such a pen if I have to buy special paper to go with it. Give me a digital pen that works with regular paper and costs less than $70, and I'll strongly consider purchasing. Add some kind of wireless functionality (bluetooth, or even IR) so I can transmit to my PC or PDA, still for less than $70, and there is no way on earth I'm not buying the product.
Just think, we don't have to print out every incoming fax, we can save notes and e-mails typed into the computer... then this thing comes out, and we get to *write* everything down again.
Yeah, sure, it'd be useful for people who usually take paper notes anyway (like me), but for the whole "making communication easier" thing, it seems like a waste of perfectly good paper to scribble out a quick e-mail to someone with this pen.
Super ninja monkeys will one day rule the world!
From the FAQ:
...all out in the cold because Microsoft created their own necessity.
I use Netscape exclusively as my web browser; do I still need to install Internet Explorer?
Yes, but only if your system has an older version of Internet Explorer installed. Since Internet Explorer is a core component of Windows, many features of the Logitech io Software are dependent on the program. However, installing Internet Explorer does not mean you must use it as your browser; you can still use Netscape as your default Internet browser.
Remember when Microsoft, during their DOJ trial, claimed that Explorer was intractable from Windows? That it was such a core component that could not be removed without crippling the whole OS? Not only were they wrong but they were caught fabricating evidence in the form of a VHS tape with telltale impossible graphics and they were busted, wholesale.
Well this is just an example of how that fabrication -- and by extension Microsoft's influence -- affects a fair market negatively. Netscape, Opera, Mozilla, Konqueror
"Core component" my ass.
My
Limekiller
dot NET=dot SUCKS
Can I photocopy the paper to make my own?
Not that I think this is likely... but since each piece of paper is somewhat unique (one sheet from a 60,000 km^2 area.) Couldn't this be used for some kind of tracking. Microsoft uses media player (with their new update) to grab these .pen files, looks at the dot patterns to see which piece of paper it was written on, then figures out where that paper was sold. I'm getting my tinfoil hat ready now.
Go away, or I will replace you with a very small shell script.
From the FAQ: .NET framework? .NET framework is necessary for some of the functions of the Logitech io Software.
Why do I have to install the
The
Oh isn't that special...
My
Limekiller
Logitech claims this is the first true breakthrough in pen technology in 200 years, but I guess the invention of the ball-point pen in 1888 doesn't qualify. Sigh... gotta love marketing hype!!
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
One company has a dayminder that has a pressure sensitive pad under the paper and it transfers the data to your palm pilot that sits in a little cradle in the other side of the dayminder. This product does not require any special paper so lifetime costs would be much lower especially if you already own a Palm device.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Obviously I must have one. :^)
Your wish is my command.
Stop Continental Drift! Reunite Gondwanaland!
How is this different than the crossPad ? I got one of these on clearence at Staples about 3-4 years ago. Its a pen that has a radio transmitter in it, you write on regular paper on a special tablet. This records everything you write in the pad, and on paper. When you get home, you sync it to your computer (rs232, no usb) and viola, your notes ready to be converted with the included IBM handwriging recognition software.
How is this thing any different, besides the usb?
I really love my crossPad, its nice to have a paper copy, and a digital copy of everything I jot down.
-Mkl
How in the world was this A) modded up and B) based on fact? This is like saying that just because someone uses Java (which supports Web Services, just like .NET) that Sun can now capture everything that you do with it. This is total hogwash barely worthy of a -1.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Is paper faulty somehow?
This
i love how they always show pictures of technologies like this where everyone happens to have perfect handwritting, with perfect spacing and tabing so that when it is imported to a PC, it still is decently usable. If i really wrote like that, I'd never have to use a computer. What they need is some kind of active translation like the writting similar on an Newton or Palm Grafiti.
Jesus saves souls and redeems them for valuable cash prizes
Check out terminatorX
No I mean really check it out, check out the turntables section. See the one made by toqer? Yeah thats me... Well anywho, on with my comment.
I know 3 DJ's (more hobbiest) and I spent a little time watching how they scratch records, mix and all that good stuff. I noticed that when they scratched, they had a special slip pad underneath the vinyl so it would slide smoothly. This got me to thinking that it was the record that provided the most tactile feedback to the DJ, and not just the turntables.
So I did that first prototype, it works good, but black doesn't reflect well enough so I would like to do something different. Here comes my big question to the people in the know.
Since this device is more than just a mouse (it takes pictures and sends them back to the pc) could you track the position on the record with a visual cue? Like a pattern, a barcode or something? I'm thinking if it could be done, just distribute a PDF so people could print up thier own records.
"But worst of all, the software that decodes it REQUIRES the .NET framework to run -- so much for Linux!"
.NET framework?
This
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
I think I will still prefer the InkLink, especially since it clips to any pad of paper, not require special digital paper. It is also only $100 vs. $200 for the io pen (SmartPad: $100, SmartPad2: $150) and works with PC(windows they should say), Palm, and PocketPC
Second question: Is there anyone old enough to remember why typing was invented? I thought it was invented so that we don't have to read ugly handwriting.
My professor's handwriting was really bad. Once I recd a post-it from him and went to ask him what it says. He was out of the office, so I asked his secretary. Well she couldn't read it. By chance his son came over there (then a UC Berkeley student), neither could he read it. Finally one of his colleagues (they had worked 15 years together) could read it. It was all non-technical. Now imagine if he had this pen and he sent all his emails in his hand-writing.
How cool would this be with support for a wireless protocol?"
Good luck. I seriously doubt logitech would provide information on developing such a driver for this device.
Boycott Logitech
Live web cams
here is the company info about it
I got it to take class notes and it works great. The only bad thing is having to re-position the clip after you write on each page...
Gerry -- #include "ea!.h"
This is essentially a glorified 2D barcode reader. The camera captures enough information in the little dots to know where it is with good precision in the 60 thousand killometer 2 dimensional barcode.
They couldn't use an optical mouse mechanism because it can't tell where on the page it is. They have a 60 thousand kilometer space so if you go back to the same page you wrote on a week ago and make changes then it'll show up on the correct page.
They could simplify it, though, by allowing generic pads to be made where each page in a pad is unique, but if you want to change to a different pad you have to scan the top bound ridge first so it knows you're on a different pad. The pads are currently expensive because each sheet has to be printed individually. Make it simpler with the suggestion above and you can at least make the pads duplicates of 90 different printed sheets.
I suspect it'll flop. People will only buy the special pads for the pen, but they won't always have a special pad available when they want to write something down.
I think a simpler technology could suffice here with the parts of an optical mouse. It only needs to know which words are continous, and you can reformat their actual layout later, if needed, on the computer. Add a cheap accelerometer and it'll have a good idea of where things are in relation to each other. Add some powerfull post-processing software and it'll be able to eat drawings as well, matching up areas where the camera saw previously drawn lines.
In the end, this is a hardware solution to a problem begging for a software solution.
-Adam
Think about it- all of your grad school notes (becuase undergrad courses are worthless... 'cept maybe the ones you take in your senior year, unless you take "basket weaving 101" your last semester so you can spend time getting drunk and laid...oh wait, I'm on slashdot...)
kept for posterity- better yet- all of your grad school and PhD stuff in a format you can easily save and print out later. Sounds like a note takers dream for those qualifying exams!
This should be standard issue gift for any friends/relatives going on to higher education.
-
Actually, I could justify this for work- frequently I take notebooks worth of notes, just to save 'em off for that one day where I will transcribe everything to a notes file... YEAH RIGHT.
This would take the work out of it.
I'm buying 3.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
This product would be useful if it did not require special paper. The paper requirement is going to make this a niche or early adopter product at best. What I don't understand is why all these tech companies are moving to pen based products, especially the tablet pc. By the time the technology is solid, most purchasers will be comfortable with keyboard and mice interfaces, tablet and pen computing will be relegated to specialty uses. Just go to any college computer lab. Freshmen type 50 wpm with 10 IM windows open.A large amount of the people who desire pen based products will be dead in 15 years.
Why not multimode? Have modules to support a rollerball, fountain pen, or even a mechanical pencil?
I'm surprised that nobody has done anything novel such as a small coil in the tip and a ink ball that has a partial metal structure. In such a system you should be able to sense the ball movement and direction. The ball would be super cheap and could be your renuable revenue stream by selling the replacement ink cartridges. Furthermore, such a sensor would be so small that it could easily be placed into just about any profile - not the bloated fat (and probably uncomfortable) pen they came up with.
I mean, isn't a pen nothing more than a very very very tiny mouse ball? Sensing it's rotation and position should not be hard asuming you can fiddle with the balls composition.
I don't see any novel technology here, only bad design.
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
Who here thinks $9.99 is 'TRIPLE' the price of a regular notebook? Where I come from a notebook costs about .19, that's more than 50x the price.
Sorry, but I'm not getting this one. I'll wait for a slimmer version and then decide if it's even worth purchasing.
This is not a troll; I'm serious in doubt as to why this product is useful.
Notepads are useful largely because they're essentially disposable; you can scribble as much as you want without worrying about running out of paper or about it costing too much. $10 for a replacement notebook is a bit steep. I usually pay $1 or so for my notebooks.
So I can get an image of my notebook pages... doesn't a $50 scanner do the same thing? Ok, so a scanner takes a little while and only handles a page at a time. Is that limitation worth $150 to that many people, especially with an extra $7 per notebook?
Cool technology, but I doubt this will be a successful product.
-John
I lost my pen. Not only did I lose my pen, I lost the information stored in it.
No, someone thinks you're in a very small minority, and wants to maximize their profits by targetting the largest audience they can.
.NET. There are other options, such as Java/Swing or C++/Qt, that would allow them to easily produce versions portable across UNIX, Linux, Mac OS, and Windows. Right now, the only thing .NET accomplishes is limiting their potential base of customers to those who use Windows. This alientates all the artists who prefer Mac OS and could benefit from digitized sketches. It alientates the "geeks" who would love a pen like this if only for a novelty. It alientates UNIX shops who could use this pen to document meetings and initial designs. There are many people who don't use Windows who would want a pen like this.
Again, it would not have been more work for Logitech to adopt a framework other than
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
One thing I can't help noticing is that the picture looks very similar to Digital Ink, which was developed at the Institute for Complex Engineered Systems at CMU and won the 1997 Gold Industrial Design Excellence Award. I don't know about the functionality.
The main obvious difference seems to be that the logitech one needs the special paper. Does anyone know if there's a relation?
Yes, if you RTFA you'll know the dots correspond to a map larger than the US.
What _I_ want to know is: Can I scan a page at reasonable resolution and have the laser printer crank out replacements? Then the paper costs about 3 cents a sheet.
If no, how long til we have a 12k app that generates a useful sequence that can be sent to a laser printer? (BTW, the pages look like they've got a roughtly 12% greyscale screen on them...)
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
Is your neighbor hoarding pencils? Since the Prevention Of Subversion Act (2009) was passed, all pens have been required to have proper government wireless logging. Owning a pencil is illegal. Report hoarders to the police! Your house may be inspected for contraband at any time - if we catch you with illegal untapped writing materials, the penalty is incarceration as an enemy combatant in Traitor City X-ray. Remember citizen, information is the poison by which treason subverts patriotism. Eternal war for eternal peace! Heil Bush!
Does the .NET framework work via the Crossover plugin? I know IE does. Once it's exported to JPG, it doesn't matter which OS you use.
Overall, there's still too many mod points floating around, I think.
I don't see anything about handwriting recognition or OCR in there. Wouldn't this pen be FAR more useful if it showed up on your computer as text instead of a bad scan of your handwriting? Surely there's a modern OS with a built-in handwriting recognition service out there somewhere...
Logitech isn't Anoto's only licensee. Sounds like you're talking about Sony Ericsson's Chatpen. It's suddenly hard to find on their website, though... makes you wonder whether they're having second thoughts about shipping it.
--Larry
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence
But in this image on the IOpen website, it sure looks like, well, they pasted the image on to that pretty little notebook. Hmm, windows on a TiBook . . .
\Drew National Data Director, John Edwards for President
Another word for this innovative 2002 technology: a scanner. You know you're in a recession when different mechanisms are being used to accomplish the same thing, each new mechanism providing less and less advantage. This is a real stretch for any practical improvement over scanners.
read this old (april 2001) wired article on anoto.
This Anoto pen
wants to be your friend
every page you send
we know end to end
we'll be watching you.
Every word you write
every pen you bite
every thing you draw
that's what we just saw
we'll be watching you
every check you sign
it knows just what time
when you draw a line
all your base are mine
we'll be watching you.
Maybe it's gotten better, but the initial Anoto documentation indicated that they handled coordination of everything written using Anoto. It's closely related to the fact that Anoto has a global data space for their paper - each piece is unique, and which lets them build interesting and special applications if they can see all the data, and part of their business plan was to sell off pieces of the map to companies who wanted to do things with it. There was some encryption stuff build in, but no real documentation on what information was available to whom. For most applications, that's not necessary - the user's PC could do most applications standalone, using the address space to do relative calculations (using x and y distance from the starting point, if the algorithms support that without central processing.)
I couldn't tell from the web page whether .NET was used just as a bunch of libraries (e..g for communicating with the pen via USB) or if it was also used to talk to Anoto themselves, or to Logitech - does anybody have more information?
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
This is an old concept. A friend of mine had this same idea years ago in Grad School. We were creating strategic techhology concepts and his digital pen was The JOT! Check it out: annoia.com. Go in, click on The Jot movie...
Get rid of the expensive paper! Make it do a few other things that might actually make my life easier! Then I'll spend the money.
How do you erase?
How do you chew on the end?
I tried to use a 'regular pen' the other day to outline something in a meeting -
It had been so long since I had 'written' that I felt like I was using my left hand instead.
Even then, I kept using the Grafitti letter forms that I use to input text into my PalmPilot thingie.
"The" looked more like "7h3". When my boss asked me to xerox my notes for him, I just typed them up and emailed them instead.
My handwriting was never any good, but it's certainly gotten much worse lately...
Cheers,
Jim
-- My Weblog.
I can't wait until they make this into a wireless protocol, and then people's pens start getting exploited. Can you wait until even something you write on PAPER ends up on someone's computer in CHINA?!?!!
YOu still haven't solved the problem. Try drawing in paint|photoshop|gimp|etc. as you would with a pen/pencil. As in, make a stroke in the upper left of the page, lift the mouse, and make a stroke in the lower-right corner. Not quite what you want, huh? You'll just get the end of the first stroke being the same point as the start as the second; the second won't appear in the bottom right corner.
"In Silicon Valley, paper is now worth than the ideas written on it!"
What's this Submit thingy do?