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Sensors Gone Wild

tulanian writes "forbes.com has an interesting article on networked, intelligent sensors. It mentions an experiment done by DARPA where several dozen magnetic sensors were scattered along a road and passing vehicles could be identified by their magnetic signatures."

203 comments

  1. Well, it sounds like fun.... by coryboehne · · Score: 2

    Now not only do they know how many people drive down the road, they also know their approximate wealth based up what they're driving? Yea....

  2. Is this good? by bobtheprophet · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Eventually large swaths of the earth will communicate with the digital realm using millions of miniature sensors.
    Sounds like 1984 to me...the privacy issues here are a serious concern.
    --
    Don't give me none of this "nature theme" business.
    1. Re:Is this good? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you even read 1984? Because it sounds nothing like 1984.

    2. Re:Is this good? by orangesquid · · Score: 1

      In 1984, there were very few sensors (the TV-like two-way screens), but they were very comprehensive. In this system, there would be a vast array of simple sensors working in tandem. [I think] He was alluding to the ability of either system to watch people closely.

      --
      --TheOrangeSquid Is it any wonder things seem so awry? We swim in a sea of confusion and don't have to think to survive
  3. Wear and Tear? by Malicious · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So does this mean, when your car begins to rust out, and it's magnetic fingerprint changes, you'll cease to exist?

    --
    01101001001000000110000101101101001000000110001001 10000101110100011011010110000101101110
    1. Re:Wear and Tear? by broller · · Score: 4, Funny

      So does this mean, when your car begins to rust out...you'll cease to exist?

      No, quite the opposite. You'll just be scattered along the roads and eventually you'll be everywhere!

    2. Re:Wear and Tear? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you just have to ring M$ to reactivate your prod.. oh, wait

    3. Re:Wear and Tear? by penguin_punk · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      "0110100100100000011000010110110100100000011000100 110000101110100011011010110000101101110"

      011010010010000001100001011011010010000001110010 01 101111011000100110100101101110

      --
      HURD - Hurd's Under Research & Development
    4. Re:Wear and Tear? by penguin_punk · · Score: 1

      |begin offtopic (no need to mod down)
      haha, I'm guessing the poor sap who modded that one down took the time to translate the binary as well.
      That sucks. Sorry I wasted your time man.
      |end offtopic (again, no need to mod down)

      Personally, I thought it was funny as hell.

      --
      HURD - Hurd's Under Research & Development
  4. it gets worse... by Obliterous · · Score: 5, Insightful

    a very MINOR operation by the car manufacturers could give each automobile a distinct magnetic signature, similar to a magnetic VIN. I dont think I'd want them able to track My driving habits...

    1. Re:it gets worse... by wkitchen · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I dont think I'd want them able to track My driving habits...
      More important than my driving habits, I wouldn't want them tracking when/where I go. And no, I don't have anything evil I want to hide. It's just that it's none of their business what churches, political events, social events, etc. that people attend. That may not be their intent, but the potential for abuse bothers me.
    2. Re:it gets worse... by z)bandito(_X · · Score: 2, Interesting

      wouldn't the contents of the car alter the signature? potentially just the number of passengers inside could alter the signature, or certainly power magnets could. so then you could outlaw travel with large amounts of magnetic material (already an interesting proposition considering cars increasing reliance upon computer systems), but it gets pretty hard to outlaw electricity and metal...

    3. Re:it gets worse... by treat · · Score: 3, Informative
      I dont think I'd want them able to track My driving habits...

      You think they can't already do this, by tracking your cellphone?

    4. Re:it gets worse... by Obliterous · · Score: 1

      call me un-american if you want, but I dont have a cell phone... Nor do I have a pager, PDA, or any other electronic item on My person... I dont even wear a watch....

      IF some employer needs to get in touch with Me bad enough that I would need a cell phone, THEY can provide it. and it will still stay off most of the time...

      I prefer My peace and privacy, and I consider most of those devices an intrusion into what little I am able to achieve.

    5. Re:it gets worse... by mla_anderson · · Score: 1

      I'm sure they can, but since it's part of the telecommunications infrastructure doing so will require a warrent.

      --
      Sig is on vacation
    6. Re:it gets worse... by MattCohn.com · · Score: 1

      Only if you stay on the line the whole time...

      Can you hear me now...good! Can you hear me now...good! Can you hear me now...good! Can you hear me now...good! Can you hear me now...

    7. Re:it gets worse... by Obliterous · · Score: 1

      Sure. But if they attach 32 magnets to the underside of your car, and limit the sensor threshhold, it's not going to matter who is in the car with you...

      As for the powerful magnet, Yes, it might work, but unless it varied it's strength and alignment on a rather random basis, it would just give them an even more distinct signature to track, and passing a toll-gate, or even a disguised checkpoint with a camera would be enough to tie the altered magnetic signature to the liscense plate.

      and even a totaly random sig would only make it slightly more dificult to track you. they'd just have to track the data anomaly that it would produce. the only solution would be to have everyone masking their magnetic signature... and I'm sure that they'll figure ways to beat that too. Probably just make it illeagal and slap heavy fines on anyone caught doing it.

    8. Re:it gets worse... by hatmouse · · Score: 1

      They can track every tower that your cell phone makes contact with, you don't have to be on a call.

    9. Re:it gets worse... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hate to bring an argument based on "less convenience" into the middle of a discussion of driving, but if people are seriously (and I mean seriously) concerned about issues regarding automobile tracking and whatnot - walk. Or take mass transit. Until city mass-transit starts requiring personalized identification, it's safer, often cheaper in the long run, and certainly less polluting.

    10. Re:it gets worse... by asv108 · · Score: 2
      a very MINOR operation by the car manufacturers could give each automobile a distinct magnetic signature, similar to a magnetic VIN. I dont think I'd want them able to track My driving habits..

      Wouldn't it be very easy to alter this signature? I'm sure it could be hacked fairly easily. If people want privacy, they can dive the millons of perfectly good used cars. If such a scheme was implemented, which is probably highly unlikely, unless Ashcroft becomes president.

    11. Re:it gets worse... by diggem · · Score: 1

      I don't know what the extremely minor/easy change would be. Sounds to me it would be easy enough to defeat too. For example if it was a series of welds in the body somewhere? Just guessing I guess.. that would be easy enough to CHANGE. :)

      Probably not as worth worrying about right this minute as you think, but something to be aware of for sure.

    12. Re:it gets worse... by scalis · · Score: 1

      a very MINOR operation by the car manufacturers could give each automobile a distinct magnetic signature, similar to a magnetic VIN

      Good thing i know where to buy enough led to encapsulate my car. I wonder how i'll cut out the doors though....

      --

      True ravers don't need drugs
    13. Re:it gets worse... by Methuseus · · Score: 1

      They can also track you by GPS, but that's where the "only while a call is in session" things. I'm pretty sure he was talking more about a positive ID lock on a specific person. As it is, that's hard enough if you stay on the phone, let alone if you get off the phone.

      --
      Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, though I'm not yet sure about the universe. - A Einstein
    14. Re:it gets worse... by wkitchen · · Score: 1
      Or take mass transit. Until city mass-transit starts requiring personalized identification, it's safer, often cheaper in the long run, and certainly less polluting.
      When I'm sitting on a 48,000 pound bus with 2 other passengers, I'm not so certain about the less polluting part. It all depends on how many passengers it takes to break even, and what the average number of passengers is on a typical city bus at any given moment. Unfortunately, those numbers are completely unknown to me.
    15. Re:it gets worse... by jeremyacole · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I dont think I'd want them able to track My driving habits...

      You think that they can't already track you? You do realize that you drive around in a car with a unique identifier on it already - the license plate. There are cameras up all over the city, even in small cities these days. If "they" really wanted to track you, they could.

      Call me a conspiracy theorist if you want, but the average public these days just doesn't realize how much of their life is being recorded into some database.
    16. Re:it gets worse... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Make some large electromagnets and bolt/epoxy them to the bottom of your car. Use a crappy audio car amp plugged into a radio tuned to your fav radio station to power them (you didn't need to power your 15" subwoofers anyway.)

      Just don't carry around any floppy disks or people with pacemakers and you should be fine.

    17. Re:it gets worse... by Sacarino · · Score: 1

      nope, negative.

      you think that the phone and the tower only talk when you're placing a call?

      you think that's air you're breathing now? hm.

      --
      -- El Sacarino tiene gusto de la chocha
    18. Re:it gets worse... by dattaway · · Score: 2

      Unfortunately, anybody who walks is highly visible and subject to even greater scrutiny. You dare to be different. You dare to be free. Most people enjoy the common luxurious privacy a car provides, but walking is regarded as a social activity. When walking, you are judged by your clothes, where you are heading, the manner in which you walk, and in today's society your body will be sized up and compared with the unusual mind of the beholder.

      Whenever you are visible, you are being profiled. Being visible, especially in an automated manner by the government, may result in interesting profiles brought on by current politics. Cameras are now often seen at intersections. Initially seen as a means of controlling traffic, they may serve other uses. Security cameras watching pedestrians are becoming more common. And the person who writes software that can demonstrate profiling criminals has a goal to make money. Do those cameras see a dollar bill when they see you? Do you really want to walk and expose your face anymore?

    19. Re:it gets worse... by Sacarino · · Score: 1


      Just don't carry around any floppy disks or people with pacemakers and you should be fine.

      Can you imagine the mayhem you'd cause just by driving through a retire community? Or, hell, your local airport. I'm sure that 1.21 jigawatts :) radiating from the underside of your car would cause interesting results with an ILS approach corridor.

      --
      -- El Sacarino tiene gusto de la chocha
    20. Re:it gets worse... by treat · · Score: 2
      I'm sure they can, but since it's part of the telecommunications infrastructure doing so will require a warrent.

      Do you really believe this?

    21. Re:it gets worse... by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 2

      I don't know. If they were to sell my driving habits to advertisers, so that billboards posted along my route to and from work were specifically tailored to products and services that I was interested in. . .

      Somebody slap me? Please?

      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

  5. Scary implications.... ?? by pro-mpd · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Are there any insidious uses for this technology? There always are, but realistically what?

    I could kinda see this being used for speed checking using the time elapsed between passing different sensors (like VASCAR) if the sensors could differentiate certain cars.

    Or knowing where you are at any given time. Hmmm.

    Any other suggestions?

    1. Re:Scary implications.... ?? by JanneM · · Score: 1

      actually, that particular example would be a good thing. Current radar or laser based technology does have a tendency to make mistakes. It means both a small proportion of drivers getting speeding tickets erroneously, and a need for police departments to allow for a "speed rebate" - a margin of error which means you won't be stopped if you speed a little. And as any behavioral psychologist can tell you, if you have an 'accepted' margin for wrongdoing, it will lessen the respect and compliance for serious transgressions within the same field.

      There are of course numerous far less benign uses for this, though. /Janne

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    2. Re:Scary implications.... ?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the case of the sniper shootings they could have compiled a list of cars that were in the area. Then after people accepted it a little they could start to use it to monitor traffic patterns looking for anyone who might be dealing drugs, or other crimes. Placing a few of these in the 'bad' areas of town and if you drive around there 'too much' they stop you and search your car. There are many more things that could be viewed as ok at first then turn out to be used for other things. I know in many states they have reduced the ability of cops to do dwi stops, in mamy cases they have to do requests 3 to 6 months in advance... now they just call them driver lisenses checks... same thing just another name, give cops power and they will abuse it if they can get away with it.

    3. Re:Scary implications.... ?? by JimBobJoe · · Score: 2

      I could kinda see this being used for speed checking using the time elapsed between passing different sensors (like VASCAR) if the sensors could differentiate certain cars.

      You could also do that with EZ-Pass transponders, or for that matter, when you get a toll ticket, it's got the time you entered onto the highway printed on it, and then when you leave the highway, they see how long it took you to get to the exit. But, no one does it. So perhaps nothing to really worry about.

    4. Re:Scary implications.... ?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree that Current radar or laser based technology does have a tendency to make mistakes, but so would this. if they were to be accidently moved even three inches in one direction it would effect the estimated speed. just light the red light cameras that have benn proved to be miss configured many times(wish I had a link). simmilar errors could be made with these. BUt I still don't see how my grandmother/mother/daughter using my car to run to the store and runing a light should get me a ticket.

    5. Re:Scary implications.... ?? by sllim · · Score: 1

      This is getting stupid off the topic.
      But I want to point out that speeding tickets have nothing to do with public safety and everything to do with generating revenue.

      Hence the automated speed traps that just send you tickets. Not to mention automated red light traps.

      When you take a serious, hard look at those technologies and how they are currently being used there just cannot be any argument that they improve public safety.

      That only leaves one motive.

    6. Re:Scary implications.... ?? by njchick · · Score: 1
      Are there any insidious uses for this technology?
      Maybe Mr. Poindexter will compare your driving habits to those of suspected terrorists.
    7. Re:Scary implications.... ?? by Cyno01 · · Score: 2

      also any sort of system with two automated sensors placed some distance from each other might have problems if there were two of the same models of car near eachother on the road, there are a lot of cars that are very common

      --
      "Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
  6. Have to be careful about over-reliance by ThogScully · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I can imagine that many of the uses for these listed could be great, but over-reliance may be a problem. While it would be nice if everything like this worked like in Star Trek, I can imagine a story in the future where someone calls 911 about a bridge that looks about to collapse that is ignored because the sensors say the bridge is fine.

    --
    I've nothing to say here...
    1. Re:Have to be careful about over-reliance by kilogram · · Score: 1

      It also raises several questions on how this can be used in a war. E.g., the army has spread these little sensors on a bunch of roads around them, but someone on the other side have managed to jam the signals, and send false ones. So you could practically have the enemy think you are coming in from the east, while you are actually coming in from the west. Well, it might happen.

  7. THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! by fireboy1919 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I will not be sensored! My rights are on the line here! I can say whatever I want!

    Fellow /.ers, we must not let sensorship continue. First the MPAA and RIAA are against us and now DARPA. Its time we started speaking out against such sensorship. Now there hypeing "intelligent" sensorship? Since when is sensorship smart?

    Talk to your congressman or woman and tell them that you don't like sensors. Surely, we can make a change if we all work together.

    Now that you've read my post, here's a little note for the dimwitted: it's a joke!

    --
    Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
    1. Re:THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! by pcmills · · Score: 2

      That's Karma Whore +6 Funny

      --
      Ask Slashdot - google for stupid people.
  8. 1984? by GimmeFuel · · Score: 5, Funny

    Big Magnet is watching you...

  9. What a boad of lollocks. by Boss,+Pointy+Haired · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Anybody else try and read this article and not have the faintest idea what it was about?

    1. Re:What a boad of lollocks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Anybody else try and read this article and

      I'm going to stop you there and say probably not.

    2. Re:What a boad of lollocks. by Dot.Com.CEO · · Score: 1
      I am trully surprised the editors would let a tech link from Forbes pass. I used to read the mag (or should I say rag) when I was in college and during my first years at work, hoping to understand why the hell all top business people read it and swear by it. After almost seven years of reading and trying, I have yet to reach a conclusion on whether the tech editors are clueless or criminally stupid

      The vast majority of tech articles on Forbes are written for your everyday clueless CEO who wants to see ideas. Whether they work or not, is besides the point. Whether they are good or not is completely irrelevant. This article, although interesting in a "what if" kind of way gives little detail.

      Forbes is to be avoided on tech issues. If you want good tech news from a business perspective read the Economist. Or slashdot.com :->

      --
      Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
    3. Re:What a boad of lollocks. by sillobalso · · Score: 1

      "Forbes is to be avoided on tech issues. If you want good tech news from a business perspective read the Economist. Or slashdot.com :->" or slashdot.org

  10. Hertz, et al? by sprlmnl · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Doesn't anyone remember the article about the car rental companies monitoring the GPS systems they had installed? Going too fast? Going to Mexico? Going to an anti-anything rally?

    When will someone get around to inventing the 'cone of silence' so we can have our privacy back?!

    1. Re:Hertz, et al? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry. I saw on TV that Kinko's is working hard to bring the "convo-bub" conversational bubble to mass-market.

    2. Re:Hertz, et al? by Alsee · · Score: 3, Funny

      When will someone get around to inventing the 'cone of silence' so we can have our privacy back?!

      It's right here, it's usually shaped more like a hemisphere but I'm sure you can make yours into a cone if you like.

      P.S.
      I agree with you about the rental companies. I just thought giving the link for the cone of silence was amusing.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    3. Re:Hertz, et al? by jgalun · · Score: 2

      Going to an anti-anything rally?

      If you're really so concerned about your privacy, and keeping the government from knowing you oppose its policies, maybe you should stop showing up to rallies. I mean, it's one to thing to say that you're afraid that if the government can spy on you, they'll be able to know your closely-guarded political beliefs, or your secret conspiratorial meetings. But hey, if you're walking down Pennsylvania Avenue with a big sign that says "No to war with Iraq," chances are the government can figure out that you're against going to war with Iraq, even without Big Brother. :)

  11. Re:Obligatory Mirror - LINK IS GOATSE!!!!!!! by pro-mpd · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Please mod down.

  12. Sounds cool... but.... by Joe5678 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The sensors sound pretty cool from the article, they mention the military wants to scatter them over a battlefield so they can collect info about where the enemy is, but I wonder how hard it would be for the enemy to just jam the network, or send out a bunch of bogus data into it.

    1. Re:Sounds cool... but.... by Si+F. · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Believe it or not the military actually have some experience in the area of jammed / faked Comms.

      Although getting mil standard crypto into such small devices might be hard. Then there's the high possibility of them falling into enemy hands and the crpyto key being open to comprimise.

      Ignore what I said, you may have a good point.

    2. Re:Sounds cool... but.... by coryboehne · · Score: 2

      Well, crypto would be virutally useless in this application for the military, they're not sending out communications, only recieving them. I cannot see any good reason why the military would want to use any sort of encryption on these... And... Fall into enemy hands? Remember, some of these sensors are so small they're essentially invisible, totally invisible to the naked eye. So I doubt that any of your concerns are all that valid.. Not to trash on you or anything though, you had some good thoughts and ideas, I just don't think it will be an issue.

    3. Re:Sounds cool... but.... by daigu · · Score: 1

      It looks like they are still developing the protocols or even how it will transmit data, but you can jam most any electronic transmission if you know how it works.

      With that said, a battlefield is not somewhere where you have the leisure to put together a jamming device using RadioShack parts and a soldering gun. Where's you Iraqi or Afghan (for example) going to get the hardware? Will they be able to carry it in the field?

      Then there is the issue of how you would know these sensors were in place, would the act of jamming enable them to accomplish their objective of locating hostiles, etc. I think you can safely say that as a military scouting application, it has unlimited possiblities and opens up a whole new dimension for tactics and strategy.

      There is also the issue that development of this kind of application might make a significant contribution to the efficiencies of other networks such as the Internet. Trying to figure out an efficient network protocol that conserves power seems like it would present new technical insights that would be applicable to other areas as well.

      Obviously, there are big brother concerns too -- and not just the government. Can you imagine the pop-unders we'd see when a X10-like company gets a hold of this tech? That alone makes me want to write my Congressman.

    4. Re:Sounds cool... but.... by BeBoxer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well, crypto would be virutally useless in this application for the military, they're not sending out communications, only recieving them. I cannot see any good reason why the military would want to use any sort of encryption on these...

      Actually, there are two very good reasons why the military might want to use crypto. One is that if the sensors are actually providing useful info, the enemy might also find that information useful. If you drop sensors onto the front line, and then manage to advance the line, well now the sensors are transmitting information about the location of your own troops. So you would definitely want that encrypted.

      The other is to ensure the integrity of the information. Remember, crypto has more uses than simply preserving privacy. Your sensor array wouldn't be worth a whole lot if the enemy could transmit false data. If you can't trust the sensors, you can't make decisions based upon the data you get back. Imagine if your enemy could inject fake data saying that nothings moving when in fact they are advancing? Or saying that their tanks are miles away from their actual location?

    5. Re:Sounds cool... but.... by Servo · · Score: 2

      I'm always pondering how to defeat electronic systems such as these proposed devices.

      Seems reasonable that one could create a drone plane to search for the signal of these devices (it wouldn't even have to decode it, just home in on it) and then drop anti-sensor devices in the relative area. These anti-sensors could generate short bursts of false data (unlikely to work, if the designers of the sensors do it right, a good design would require some sort of authentication), or could create false magnetic "images" using electromagnetics.

      You could drop a load of anti-sensors that generated a magnetic field that looks like a group of foot soldiers and a tank or two. A recon drone would be sent in to check it out, most likely, but given enough deployments, I'm sure it would confuse or overwhelm whomever was deploying the sensors.

      --
      A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
    6. Re:Sounds cool... but.... by breon.halling · · Score: 3, Funny
      ...scatter them over a battlefield so they can collect info...

      ... and spam them back to the stoneage with targeted advertising! =)

      --
      "Yeah, well, Dracula called and he's coming over tonight for you and I said okay."
    7. Re:Sounds cool... but.... by coryboehne · · Score: 2

      That still leaves the problem of blocking the actual (true) data. I would also assume that the sensors would be re-collected and re-used so that the front-line issue should'nt really be a problem, and rather than use crypto (which is a bit cumbersome if you're using a strong cypher) why not just obfuscate the network in some other manner, maybe simply splitting the transmission over two channel (or ten wtf ever) and then run a program at the com base to reconstruct the signal?

    8. Re:Sounds cool... but.... by tuanjim_2001 · · Score: 1

      On the note of bogus data... If you haven't read any of Turtledove's WorldWar saga you should. In it biosensors are deployed near bases that detect urine and can estimate the number of hostiles in the area. This is ofcourse rendered useless when the hostiles start urinating on the sensors. OH MY GOD!! 14 BILLION HUMANS HEADING OUR WAY!!!!!!!

      --
      "If a quarter is two bits, then a dollar's a byte." -R Deric Miller
  13. Your Tinfoil Hat Will Protect You. by DaedalusLogic · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Don't worry... the tinfoil hat you're wearing will keep you from being sensed. All sensors can be fooled... Some systems of sensors are just a little better than others... You just need to know what they measure and send them crappy information.

  14. Clearly, what is needed is... by march · · Score: 4, Funny

    Clearly, what is needed is some squid on a GSXR-1100 to zip by at some insane speed (which those bikes are quite capable of doing in 1st gear!) and generate enough voltage to blow the sensor out of the ground.

    Throw in a few rare-earth magnets in his pocket and send the whole system into a tizzy.

    Oh, what fun we could have....

    :-)

    1. Re:Clearly, what is needed is... by DavittJPotter · · Score: 2

      I volunteer! :-)

      Now to get my Gixxer...

      --
      "If there's hope, it lies in the proles..."
    2. Re:Clearly, what is needed is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      some squid on a GSXR-1100 to zip by at some insane speed


      Note to non-sportsbikers: Stupid bike riders are called 'squid' because that's what they most resemble after the accident they caused that cost their life.
    3. Re:Clearly, what is needed is... by joib · · Score: 2


      some squid on a GSXR-1100 to zip by at some insane speed

      Note to non-sportsbikers: Stupid bike riders are called 'squid' because that's what they most resemble after the accident they caused that cost their life.


      Oh. I thought he meant SQUID = superconducting quantum interference device, which is a device for measuring extremely small magnetic fields. A SQUID might be of interrest in the sensor itself (if it would work at ambient temperature, that is), but I didn't really understand why he would want one on the bike... :)

  15. Re:Obligatory Mirror - LINK IS NOT GOATSE!!!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    disregard last message

  16. Sociologists and legal people by czarneki · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The implications of this are so huge that we need to get sociologists and legal people thinking about this early," says Roger T. Howe, the director of the Sensor & Actuator Center at the University of California at Berkeley.

    Yes, people are always calling for laws and regulation before the technology has worked itself out. But tt shouldn't work that way. The technology needs to get its fingers everywhere and become popular before we can think about legal and social issues sensibly. Otherwise we are just speculating wildly and choking off the possibility of genuine innovation. (witness the unfortunate too-early regulation of digital music).

    I, for one, am at the same time terrified and excited by the idea of sensors everywhere, communicating wirelessly and powering themselves from ambient heat. I have no idea what kind of applications will come of it, but I don't want any regulation until it's "too late."

    1. Re:Sociologists and legal people by NoData · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Technology moves at a pace that is far, far faster than social change. If we wait until a technology is adopted to consider its social and political ramifications, the damage will be long done--and, in fact, the next phase of that technology will already be well into development.

      I sympathize with your concerns that pre-emptive regulation strangles innovation. However, I think the problem lies with the entire approach our society has in dealing with technology. Our society is issue-driven, and deals with issues rather than values. "What is our digital music policy? What is our wire tapping policy? What is our copy protection policy?"...etc.

      Instead, we need to formulate a majority expression of our core values regarding matters that have become salient in light of modern technology. Really, I think these boil down to two major domains: Privacy and intellectual property*.

      What makes our Constitution so flexibile and adaptive is that it broadly sets out a scaffolding of societal values (at least the Bill of Rights does). But, besides some tangential language in the 4th, there's nothing explicit on privacy. And certainly, IP could never have been anticipated.

      I think our societal norms on what constitutes privacy and IP are right now in a state of extreme flux. Once these crystalize, I think much of the debate concerning the legitimacy of many technologies will become moot. For better or worse.

      *(OK, there's a 3rd domain: Biological engineering...but this one invokes religion, and so is at a whole other level of complexity. Way, way off from being settled).

    2. Re:Sociologists and legal people by BeBoxer · · Score: 2

      I, for one, am at the same time terrified and excited by the idea of sensors everywhere, communicating wirelessly and powering themselves from ambient heat. I have no idea what kind of applications will come of it, but I don't want any regulation until it's "too late."

      I'm just curious. Do you drive your car with your eyes closed so you can be both terrified and excited about the outcome?

  17. two quick thoughts by JimBobJoe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    First, I've always wondered if cars did indeed emit some type of unique magnetic signature. Because if they did, I would make a sensor to detect the precise signature emitted by the Ford Crown Victoria with the police package, which is drived by the vast majority of police departments in North America (well at least in my state. Add two or three more cars and you got 90% of the police car types.)

    Then I would sell em as police detectors. :-)

    Second thought, I'm particularly in love with this

    "Omron is about to market a system that lets your car recognize you using your fingerprint."

    Since we know that fingerprint devices are not that hard to fool...all ya have to do is dust the car you wanna steal for fingerprints (assuming that the owner of the car has indeed touched their car barehanded at some point in time) and do the elmer's glue thing. I'm excited.

    1. Re:two quick thoughts by xenocytekron · · Score: 1

      Finger print technology will not only detect the fingerprint, but also the pulse of the thumb to make sure it is the person's thumb. whether you could just stick the paper up and put your thumb behind it, I dunno.

      --
      This is my .sig, if you don't like it, it will eat you.
    2. Re:two quick thoughts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Omron is about to market a system that lets your car recognize you using your fingerprint."

      Great, now car-jackers will be chopping hands off of car owners...

    3. Re:two quick thoughts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "which is drived by the vast majority of police departments"
      Where did you learn English? This sentence is plainly incorrect. If you knew how to write properly, you should have wrote:
      which is drived by a vasted majority of police departments
  18. Some random thoughts by coryboehne · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ok, from the article:

    The net is relegated to a small screen and a keyboard. This will detect who you are and where you are.

    Is this a Good Thing? I know that it could be used for some very good things, such as instant identity verification, missing & lost persons (the list goes on... I'll spare you) But it seems really, really, really, Big Brotherish, and I'm not so prone to like that very much....

    Some new sensors are getting so small--some are invisible to the naked eye--that they will be able to run on 100 microwatts.

    Great! So not only can we be watched incessantly, we won't even be able to know IF we're being watched...

    At the 100-microwatt level they could gather energy from ambient heat and photovoltaic cells, says Stephen Senturia, a specialist in microsystems at MIT. His colleagues are working on making chips so small that they can power themselves, like watches that need only the kinetic energy generated by movements of the wearer's wrist.

    ok, most thought provoking idea in this comment coming right up...

    At what point is something sentient and self supporting enough to be considered life? I know that this is relying on a backbone of support, but really, this single feature is actually very interesting if you really think about it. It is capable of sensing it's environment, it's self supporting... has a definate life span... hmmm.. this is really somewhat one the edge of being electronic and creeping towards being alive...

    Just my crazy thoughts, but I think this is something we all need to watch carefully, both for the positive aspects of it, and also to be sure (as sure as we can be anyhow) that this is not being used as just another minon of Big Brother... Of course a small amount of Big Brotherism is really quite acceptable, and if used properly this technology could really be a sign of great things to come... I just hope it is used in a way that we would all approve of...

  19. I had an idea for a cool project.. by Frank+of+Earth · · Score: 5, Funny

    basically hook up two wireless network cameras that would point to the street outside my house.

    They would run motion detection software that would basically write to a database when it detected movement. By measuring the time between the two motion captures and knowing the difference in length between the cameras, I could calculate how fast people drive by my house.

    By going to my homepage, you would see something like:
    Last car went by at: 07:05:30 am
    It was going 38.9mph. 3.9 over the speed limit!

    Anyways, until the price of wireless network cams come down, I guess it's just a thought.

    1. Re:I had an idea for a cool project.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could use one camera in a window overlooking the street. This is because the street doesn't move. Anything travelling across your view of the street could be assumed to be at street level, and thus you can relate pixels to miles at a constant rate. At added expense you could use a laser rangefinder mounted on the camera, but then it would probably be cheaper just to use radar.

  20. Registure with the DOT! by Flamesplash · · Score: 2

    Along the lines of software license registration when your car takes some type of heavy metal loss, i.e. Heavy rust, part removing yet not debilitating car accidents, etc.. you will have to bring your car to a DOT facility so they can resignature your vehicle. Please note that if the DOT facitility is not your imediate next destination your vehicle will simply stop working. It's good for you; we promise

    --
    "Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
  21. MICA sensor motes by Malkthulhu · · Score: 5, Informative

    These tests were down with MICA sensor motes which can be purchased from Crossbow Technology.

    These motes run TinyOS, which was developed at UC Berkeley.

    More information about TinyOS:

    Yes, my job does involve programming for these motes. I have four of them on my desk acting as an ad-hoc wireless sensor network now.

    1. Re:MICA sensor motes by johny_qst · · Score: 1

      Out of curiosity what kind of accuracy can those sensors give you at a range of roughly 2 feet from the specimen? Is the use for sensing for an individual specimen versus similar specimens return the same value?

      --
      Fnord.sig
  22. later on the nature channel by nounderscores · · Score: 5, Funny

    When Sensors Attack!

    Be amazed by real live footage of sensors watching other sensors!

    Be captivated by the secret sensor mating ritual!
    (mount, fsck, unmount!)

    Laugh at sensors hopping around the battle field like little metal frogs.

    Be horrified by real live footage of sensors mauling some guy who sprayed himself with sensor musk!

    1. Re:later on the nature channel by jelson · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Laugh at sensors hopping...

      It's very funny that you link to the DARPA SHM program. The Forbes "Sensors Gone Wild" article that Slashdot linked to today is talking about work done at the Center for Embedded Network Sensing at UCLA (and the closely associated UCLA LECS lab, also run by Deborah Estrin). Now, a few of us lowly graduate students working at the UCLA lab/center also work for Sensoria Corp, which was one of the main contractors for the SHM project. A lot of the research was very complementary. I'll plug my own research here -- the fine grained network time synchronization that we developed at UCLA/LECS is public domain and also made its way into the SHM project. There's other crossover as well (e.g. some of the acoustic ranging work); check out Sensoria's publications page.

      I was at the SHM demo on an army base this past March and again this past August, and let me tell you, seeing those things actually hop is quite exciting. Especially when you're the one with your finger on the "ARM ALL" button :-).

    2. Re:later on the nature channel by Cruciform · · Score: 2

      I wonder which future enemies the U.S. is going to sell these to so they can be used to kill American and UN troops.

      Blah. :(

  23. Re:MICA sensor motes (nesC Compiler link) by Malkthulhu · · Score: 1

    Oops. This is the correct nesC Compiler link.

  24. Sensors go wild by nuckin+futs · · Score: 3, Funny

    so when will I see it on FOX or on Video? :p
    Is it part of the When Animals Go Wild and Girls Gone Wild Series?

    1. Re:Sensors go wild by shayne321 · · Score: 2

      I was wondering if I was the only pervert having visions of drunk sensors converging on new orleans every february and exposing their "naughty bits" for cheap plastic beads after reading that headline.. Ah, Sensors Gone Wild Volume 9: Infrared Exposed.. Can't wait.

      Shayne

      --
      Today I didn't even have to use my AK; I got to say it was a good day -- Icecube
  25. Magnetic Sensors? by Liquidity · · Score: 1

    "...passing vehicles could be identified by their magnetic signatures."

    How long before Glock starts making cars?

    1. Re:Magnetic Sensors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, how about the Corvette, or the non-magnetic aluminum Cobra or NSX? Are these the next "assault-weapons" of the highways?

      If there were moisture sensors in Joan Claybrook's panties, they'd be going hyperbolic right now.

    2. Re:Magnetic Sensors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      Actually the Slide and Barrel of a Glock are made of steel - and lots of it...far from being undetectable by an airport metal detecator. Even if you made the slide and barrel out of some composite, the ammunition would still be metallic.

      The post about Corvettes is actually a better scenario. Current Corvettes have a floor made from balsa wood, and suspension components made from composites.

    3. Re:Magnetic Sensors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's more steel in a Corvette than in many smaller cars! You're forgetting about the large engine and huge hydroformed frame. The frame even has a large flat piece that is almost the entire width of the car and about 3' high behind the seats (cross-sectional area, as looking from the front, of more than 1/2 of the total of the entire car!). The steel frame also has two thick pieces that extend upward both in front of and behind the seats. I was shocked one day while playing around with a radar gun, with a friend that's a cop, that you could pick-up a Corvette on radar long before you could many small Japanese cars. Finally, let's not forget the hundreds of pounds of metal brackets, gears, screws, connectors, and bolts in a car. The vast majority of the brackets are stamped steel (cheaper than cast aluminium) and the stronger fasteners have to contain steel.z

  26. New Application of Old Technology by jtjm · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The world's navies have been identifying ships using magnetic signatures for decades; sophisticated mines exist which can not only distinguish friendly ships from those of the enemy from their magnetic signature, but use a combination of of the acoustic and magnetic signatures of a vessel to identify a particular ship (e.g. to distinguish one Ticonderoga class ship from another). This enables the laying of a minefield that will ignore the signatures of low value units such as minesweepers, frigates and destroyers, and only explode when a particular enemy carrier passes overhead.

    One imagines that an intelligence agency wishing to assassinate a foreign president/dictator could achieve similar success using the sensors described in the Forbe's article - they need merely tune the sensors to the signature of the target's limo, and lay them on a public road on the way to his residence.

  27. Magnetic Sensors Can't See my Plastic Pontiac by Liquidity · · Score: 2, Funny

    Hahaha! I am a ghost in their system with my virtually invisible Plastic Pontiac...

    1. Re:Magnetic Sensors Can't See my Plastic Pontiac by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You got a Fiero?

    2. Re:Magnetic Sensors Can't See my Plastic Pontiac by Ken+McE · · Score: 1

      You still have a signature. The metal in the engine block, radiator, driveshaft, rims, tires, and axles should give you at least as big a signature as a motorcycle. What you need in that plastic pontiac are a couple of big electromagnets and some switches on the dash...

    3. Re:Magnetic Sensors Can't See my Plastic Pontiac by waferbuster · · Score: 1
      They may not see your car, but take a look at https://mows.aiag.org/source/3/actionline/2001/09_ September/september01_p16.pdf for a cheerful view of tracking and identifying cars by a radio transmitter built into the tires.

      I faintly recall a slashdot discussion on this topic a while back, but I don't see it now. Probably just my poor search skills...

      --
      I'm an individual! Just like everyone else!
  28. Cool project? You missed a HELL of an opportunity! by Dot.Com.CEO · · Score: 1
    Man, if you had had this idea like, 5 years ago, you would be a billionaire now...

    --
    Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
  29. Luckily Magnetic Signatures are Infallable by DrSkwid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    cos you can't buy magnets anywhere

    --
    There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
  30. for some real fun by nounderscores · · Score: 2, Interesting

    add some "reproductive" devices here and there which are somehow able to scavenge items from the environment and build/repair all other nodes... with the odd "mistake" here and there....

  31. Forget about it... by charlie763 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Don't worry about being tracked. If you want to mask your car you can keep a small, fluctuating elecrto-magnet in your trunk. Maybe even running a variable current through your can will help.

    Relax guys, there are bigger matters that deserve attention. For example the Redskins' cheerleaders. Carla went to my highschool!

    --
    Welcome to the land of the free...pay toll ahead...no photography...please open your bag...
    1. Re:Forget about it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
      Relax guys, there are bigger matters that deserve attention. For example the Redskins' cheerleaders [redskins.com]. Carla [redskins.com] went to my highschool!

      Is the restraining order she got for you stll valid?

    2. Re:Forget about it... by AcquaCow · · Score: 1, Informative

      I think just the fluctuations in voltage due to a rather insane stereo system could easily offset that. Not to mention the blanket of influence a 500w subwoofer's magnet has on electronics around it. I can warp the display on my monitor from 10 ft away with some of the components I have.

      -- AcquaCow

      --

      up 12 days, 22:30, 2 users, load averages: 993.20, 994.21, 994.56
      *makes note to limit user processes...
    3. Re:Forget about it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Carla [redskins.com] went to my highschool!

      Gee.

      You're so closer to banging her than I ever will be.

    4. Re:Forget about it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Be careful, if your car stereo messes with the sensors enough I can see the fines for messing with a police investigation piling up rather high.

      "But officer, _I_ wasn't breaking the law!"
      "No, but your stereo disrupted our peeking in at the real criminals. How long have you been working for the terrorists?"
      "..."

  32. Re:SHORTEST BOOKS EVER WRITTEN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    okay, someone posted this before. And again I cry "WHY don't you make fun of HISPANICS and MEXICANS?" That's where the funny stuff is. And Greeks too.

    It's politically incorrect to only make fun of certain minorities, instead of all minorities.

    Bigot.

  33. High Income = Good Roads? by RobertB-DC · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A number of suburbs of Dallas, Texas (including Carrollton, where I work) are using computerized magnetic sensors to monitor traffic. They're temporary installations -- a box about 4" x 6" x 1" high is placed in the center of the traffic lane, and covered with a thick sheet of what looks to be asphalt-impregnated duct tape.

    When they're done with the traffic survey -- 24 hours, typically -- the city engineers cut out the sensor, leaving the tape that was stuck to the ground. You'll see these squares all over town -- they don't seem to disintegrate for several months, even after heavy traffic driving over them. The busiest intersections have several of these leftovers.

    A Dallas Morning News article a year or so ago detailed the city's use of the boxes, and noted that they could derive detailed information about the vehicles by their magnetic signatures. I didn't put 2 and 2 together, though, until Slashdot came to the rescue...

    Dallas is one of the most insanely vehicle-as-status-symbol regions of the country (according to friends who have lived elsewhere). I thought that Carrollton was simply doing a traffic survey no different than the pneumatic roll-over count... but if you can tell a '82 Chevette from a brand-new Cadillac SUV, it adds a whole new dimension.

    Anyone want to bet against the cities prioritizing road repairs based on relative driver income, as opposed to mere number of vehicles?

    --
    Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
    1. Re:High Income = Good Roads? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone want to bet against the cities prioritizing road repairs based on relative driver income, as opposed to mere number of vehicles?

      Actually, yes I do. First, roads are done at the state level, not the city, so I win on a technicality. Second, it makes sense to keep the high traffic roads in good order because if the high traffic roads are in shitty order, traffic will take alternate routes through smaller roads, like neighborhoods. This will cause all kinds of traffic snarls and accidents, to say nothing of homeowners' complaints. Next, the higher traffic roads are more likely to be traveled by government vehicles so, to reduce wear and tear on public vehicles, it is in the government's best interest to keep the high traffic roads in good shape.

      Since I won the best, I claim the grandparent's frosty pist for AC's averywhere. SUCK IT.

    2. Re:High Income = Good Roads? by coryboehne · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      From AC high command: All your FP are belong to us..... :)

    3. Re:High Income = Good Roads? by Ozymandias_KoK · · Score: 1

      You're prolly missing the point there. Given the types of vehicles in a certain area, they can pin down the relative wealth, so as to consider items like property taxes, vehicle taxes, etc. It's all about the money, not the helping of people.

    4. Re:High Income = Good Roads? by sheWhoWalksWithToesL · · Score: 2, Funny
      CONSPIRACY ALERT! CONSPIRACY ALERT!

      Oh, wait. This is slashdot. Move along, please, move along.

      --
      -SheWhoWalksWithToesLikeCobras Please enter any 11-digit prime number to continue...
    5. Re:High Income = Good Roads? by lommer · · Score: 2

      Ahhh...

      But would you really want to inconvenience all of those high-powered rich snobs by making them wait in lines while you tear up their favourite road to make it better? They'll just get pissed about having to go around the construction and about the slowdown it causes. Then the next day they'll be back to complaining about all of the potholes.

    6. Re:High Income = Good Roads? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then the next day they'll be back to complaining about all of the potholes.

      You're not kidding. We need to start using better road materials!

    7. Re:High Income = Good Roads? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I worked on the design team for these systems and yes you can tell the differences between vehicles by the magnetic signatures BUT the boxes you were looking don't have enough memory to store this data (they have 64 K). These boxes can just store the vehicle count, speed and length.

      While you could tell the differences between vehicles with the signature, the signature could change. Just drive east/west over a rough road and it gets magnetizied one way. Then drive North/South for a while hitting bumps and it changes again.

    8. Re:High Income = Good Roads? by mysticbob · · Score: 2

      i'll take that bet - come visit oakland county, mi anytime. one of the wealthiest counties in the nation, one of the
      crappiest road systems. both in overall design and in
      quality. almost like the world's largest test track for
      the big3 automotives located here. hm...

  34. Tin Foil by CatWrangler · · Score: 4, Funny

    It blocks these sensors. But the Forbes people didn't want to let that out. Tin foil and duct tape are our last best hopes.

    --

    ---
    When you come to a fork in the road, take it! --Yogi Berra--

    1. Re:Tin Foil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good idea, I'll just wrap my whole car in tinfoil and they'll never track me.

      Nothing suspicous here... move along

    2. Re:Tin Foil by twitter · · Score: 2
      You will be identifided by the crinkle you make as you walk. That and the airplanes you blind out of the sky.

      The future is looking worse all the time. Someone will come up with realistic jamming I hope. Van De Graph generators for zapping them? EMPs to fry their little recievers? Firecrackers? Any good ideas? If they become pervasive, you won't know which ones are listening to your conversation from the ones that are reporting from your power meter. Will your new digital TV have feed back, ala 1984.

      I thought it was bad at my last job when I found out that my new computer's internal microphone was on and imposible to disable, creepy. Ha Ha is not so funny when you start to consider all the closed source computers you have in your house that want to talk to the network.

      --

      Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

    3. Re:Tin Foil by gazuga · · Score: 1

      You mean, like this?

      --
      "I turn away with fright and horror from the lamentable evil of functions which do not have derivatives."
    4. Re:Tin Foil by Atrahasis · · Score: 1

      300 Gigawatts? They'd fuse the bloody thing! The flux capacitor is designed only for 1.21 Gigawatts. Fools.

  35. This is a stretch by Raiford · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Not much information in the article to conclude any kind of real concern. Use of the term magnetic signature conjures up the idea that every vehicle will have a unique signature that can be identified down to the make, model and last oil change. I don't think so. It is hard enough to extract detailed signature information from radar returns detailed enough to determine distinct vehicle classes (requires fancy imaging and such). I find it hard to believe that the perturbation in some magnetic flux density would reveal a high information content.

    --
    "player 4 hit player 1 with 0 stroms"
    1. Re:This is a stretch by BeBoxer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's what I was thinking too. I'm guessing by "identify" they mean something more like counting jeeps vs. trucks vs. tanks. Which is quite useful information in a military application of course, but a far cry from being able to id specific vehicles. Is there any reason to belive that any physical aspect if a single model of car varies enough to be measurable as any sort if identifier?

    2. Re:This is a stretch by Raiford · · Score: 1
      I don't see it. One big hunk of metal should give about the same displacement of another big hunk of metal of roughly the same size. I don't see how one would be more permeable than the other either.

      --
      "player 4 hit player 1 with 0 stroms"
    3. Re:This is a stretch by swillden · · Score: 2

      What about variations in the displacement as the vehicle passes over? Some portions of a vehicle contain higher amounts of ferrous metal than other portions, and some portions are higher off the ground and further from the sensor than others. It seems like a graph of displacement vs. time as the vehicle passes over might reveal patterns that could distinguish one kind of vehicle from another.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  36. Lying in a fox hole with a tin can for a buddy by nounderscores · · Score: 1

    How about this: attack an army who is using these things for defence on the eve of their date roll over.

    Half way through the attack, the automated defensive guns fall silent, because it is 30000 years before they've been ordered to go active.

    To upgrade the defensive guns some poor techie has to wade out there, find them and patch them. Or they have to turn on some kind of remote maintenance program which would allow you to get in, retask them to switch sides and then tell them to start shooting immediately!

    Think about it: this is NOT Y2k all over again. These devices are more like land mines than the embedded devices that run powerplants. You place them and forget them, rather than have a maintenence schedule. Keeping them all up to date for future problems would defeat the purpose of an autonomous sensor network!

  37. Whew! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For a second there I read the title as "Censors go Crazy", and I imagined officials censoring everything from source code to anti-DMCA literature...

  38. way to stop them from falling into enemy hands by nounderscores · · Score: 1

    Make them double as mines so they blow up in enemy faces.

  39. Re:SHORTEST BOOKS EVER WRITTEN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Al Gore is incapable of lying... he created the internet...

  40. Re:SHORTEST BOOKS EVER WRITTEN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe he's from the EU. It's a "hate crime", remember (guess Hispanics and Mexicans don;t count, cause there to far away).

  41. sensors gone wild! not to be confused... by deft · · Score: 3, Funny

    lets not confuse "sensors gone wild" with "girls gone wild", where ya have a bunch of girls running around topless.

    nor should we confuse this with "censors gone wild", where you have a bunch of girls running around with black blocks and blurs over there chests.

    --

    There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
    1. Re:sensors gone wild! not to be confused... by Migrant+Programmer · · Score: 1

      I got it confused with "seniors gone wild" and I've been having waking nightmares every moment since!

  42. Spoofing by Vess+V. · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Seems like you can aler your car's magnetic signature by putting a couple of slabs of sheet metal in the trunk. (Or for that matter... a couple of giant industrial magnets.)

    Am I wrong?

    1. Re:Spoofing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      probably simpler than that - just need a variable resistor wire to a coil of some sort and wire it to the power. Just dial the switch on the variable resistor and you probably change the magnetic id

    2. Re:Spoofing by jdkane · · Score: 1
      Seems like you can alter your car's magnetic signature by putting a couple of slabs of sheet metal in the trunk

      Or how about something more natural so "they" won't recognize you're beating the system ... like putting a lawn chair in your trunk, or a bicycle on your roof, or a bicycle rack on your trunk with 2 bicycles attached, or ...

    3. Re:Spoofing by AndroidCat · · Score: 2

      Feed the car stereo into an electro-magnet. Of course this will make some cars easier to indentify. (You know, the ones that play that song "Whompa-whompa-whompa" all the time at seismic volume.)

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    4. Re:Spoofing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      right, the "whompa" song.

      who mixed that song?

    5. Re:Spoofing by AndroidCat · · Score: 2
      I'm not sure, gotta be some rasta-thrash-rap-metal-house-oompa group. They sure are popular at 3am in my neighbourhood.

      You don't ask questions about music around here though. A few years ago someone was shot and killed. News reports said it was an argument over regge music. That's just not right.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  43. Sooner or later by TerryAtWork · · Score: 1

    They are going to try this as battlefield sensor system with small mobile disguised robots, and some soldier is gonna lose it when he sees the rocks sneaking up on him....

    --
    It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
  44. They *do* use EZ-Pass (etc)... by RobertB-DC · · Score: 1

    Actually, they *do* use toll tag transponders to track your speed. In Houston, the end result is this cool online map of traffic speeds on all monitored highways in the Houston/Galveston area.

    But that data comes from an averaging of individual speeds. Somewhere, there's a computer owned by a government agency which has recorded the fact that Amtech/TransCore tag number 361836456148814 passed station X at 07:32:49.5 and passed station Y (1 mile away) at 07:33:14.2 for an average speed greater than the posted speed limit.

    I also remember reading somewhere (possibly on San Antonio's similar site) that any Amtech system can be used to help with their traffic tracking. So their database has you tracked whether you've got a local tag, or one from San Antonio or Dallas, or even your Oklahoma Turnpike Pikepass.

    Interesting fact: wrapping your TollTag (etc) in aluminum foil prevents it from being detected by the sensors. That tinfoil beanie doesn't look so silly now, does it?

    --
    Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
  45. What if by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I put a powerfull magnet beneath my car?

  46. Four? Mica? by Crag · · Score: 1

    Are you putting me on? Formica?

    http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=formica

  47. Re:Obligatory Mirror by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    fyi, that's not a mirror, it's a synopsis of the research that was published in PNAS.

  48. Thank you Emily Litella by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IBID.

  49. Don't Forget by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    "What's on My Mind" By George W. Bush

  50. Instead of Girls Gone Wild, SQUIRRELS GONE WILD! by Mustang+Matt · · Score: 2

    The article was about catching all the squirrels trying to steal berries!

    --
    The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
  51. Correction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    GWB would say: "Nekkid people can't be secret terrorists..."

  52. It could be useful too.. by sheWhoWalksWithToesL · · Score: 1
    Why don't they use this kind of thing for those small but ever-crowded student parking lots so that you can see where the empty parking spaces are as you enter the lot? How much time does a person waste cruising up and down searching desperately for a parking space five minutes before class starts?

    Or what if they used these to notify people of traffic jams on the highway so that you could quickly take an alternate route?

    --
    -SheWhoWalksWithToesLikeCobras Please enter any 11-digit prime number to continue...
    1. Re:It could be useful too.. by c.derby · · Score: 1

      The parking structure at The Grove in Los Angeles does this. When you drive into the parking structure, there are signs on each floor that show how many spaces are available on each level.

      --
      -- derby
  53. Great! by Mysticalfruit · · Score: 3, Funny

    Here I've been collecting all those rare earth magnets out of harddrives for years while my friends and family laughed at me... HAHAHA, see now, who was the fool!!!! Every day I'll go out side, roll some dice and hide a couple of them in different spots, that should shank their bell graphs!

    --
    Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
  54. SNETs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I propose we call these sensor networks, SNETs.

  55. TERRORIST!! by Cyno01 · · Score: 1

    You dont have a cell fone?!?!? TERRORIST!! j/k good for you for being a minimalist, wish i could do it

    --
    "Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
  56. Technology not mature yet by GuyMannDude · · Score: 2

    I'm guessing by "identify" they mean something more like counting jeeps vs. trucks vs. tanks.

    I think you are correct. The ability to distinguish gross classes of vehicles is much easier than trying to distinguish between models or manufacturers.

    Is there any reason to belive that any physical aspect if a single model of car varies enough to be measurable as any sort if identifier?

    This research is in a very early stage so this is probably one of the questions they are trying to answer. However, if their system is accurate enough to pick up minute differences in vehicle types like this, it renders them susceptable to mistakes due to slight modifications of the vehicle. A sensor net that is super accurate is likely to not ID a Honda Accord with a big dent in the side as an Accord. And good luck trying to deal with one that has a mountain bike attached to the the roof!

    Bottom line is that Automatic Target Recognition (ATR) and Unattended Ground Sensors (UGS) are two technologies which are very much in their early stages. Don't get super worried about the Feds fusing the data from sensors sprinkled all over your hometown to construct a detailed map of your driving habits.

    GMD

    1. Re:Technology not mature yet by Fat+Casper · · Score: 2
      A sensor net that is super accurate is likely to not ID a Honda Accord with a big dent in the side as an Accord. And good luck trying to deal with one that has a mountain bike attached to the the roof!

      Hah! My rear wing not only makes my Accord faster, it makes it stealthier! Ear your heart out, 007!

      --
      I spent a year in Iraq looking for WMD and all I found was this lousy sig.
  57. cone of silence by Cyno01 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I remember reading some short, asimov i think, where this guy invented this device that canceled all sound waves within like a 10 foot radius. He invented it so you could get a little peace and quiet, but the device ended up being banned after people went around using them to blow bank vaults without anyone hearing the explosion/alarm.

    --
    "Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
  58. Applications by Cyno01 · · Score: 2
    I have no idea what kind of applications will come of it...
    I can think of quite a few aplications of sensors everywhere. Did you see Minority Report? Advertising, advertising, advertising.
    --
    "Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
  59. It's done already, at red light cameras by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I talked extensively with a fellow who was maintaining a red light camera. He was very open, and largely responsible for implementing red light cameras in British Columbia.

    There are two sensors about four meters apart, one just before and one just after the stop line. These sensors can identify speed and "weight" (magnetic mass) of the vehicle. The magnetic signature is unique to each vehicle model.

    In BC, the sensors activate the camera only when the car actually enters the intersection on a red. If you've entered on a yellow, no camera.

    Because of the speed-measuring capability, some Vancouver-district municipalities have also really put the screws to the boy-racer fuckups who are street-racing -- speeds like 140kmh through a red light. Ticket for running the red, ticket for reckless driving, ticket for speeding, etc.

    Ticket revenue goes directly back to the red light camera operations. The municipalities and government see no money from this system, thereby eliminating any incentive to generate additional revenue by diddling the yellow-light timing and or going all heavy on the marginal cases. The camera supplier doesn't get money, either (and, thus, were of absolutely no use whatsoever when it came time to provide technical support.)

    Camera-monitored red lights in BC are showing significant reductions in accidents. Indeed, the savings generated by not paying out claims is proving to be a remarkable value, and insurance companies across North America are starting to realize that spending money on accident reduction will increase their bottom-line profits.

    All in all, it's a hella fine system. Our government-tamed insurance monopoly provides us with basic insurance and uninsured driver insurance, plus is mandated to work with municipalities and the RCMP to increase road safety and decrease accident rates. Our public insurer operates in a not-profitable manner: they're not expected to (and are, in fact, expected to not) produce profits.

    All our other insurance (liability, collision, whatever else you dream of having) is provided by third-party insurers, so we really get the best of both worlds: a public insurer who's looking out for our basic needs and safety; and private insurers who compete to provide all else.

    Sorry this turned into a bit of an insurance/insurer rant, but the public insurer aspect is crucial to the success of our red light camera system, because it eliminates the urge to use the cameras as a profit center instead of a safety tool.

    1. Re:It's done already, at red light cameras by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What comes next? Sensors in my lavatory to make sure I wash my hands and wipe well to stop the everpresent risk of bacterial contamination? Sensors in my smoke detector to call the police if I smoke a less than legal herb? Some sensors on my children to prevent child abuse? Nagware on my credit card reminding me that I'm spending more than I make. My car could just have a sensor that reported and billed me each month for every bit I drive over the speed limit, register the amount of passengers I risk by speeding and fine me some more for that, and tack on some additionals for not wearing a speed belt.

    2. Re:It's done already, at red light cameras by edunbar93 · · Score: 2

      The red light cameras are exactly the same as having an actual cop standing at a street corner doing nothing but taking pictures of people breaking the law. Only a lot more accurate, a lot cheaper, and a lot less boring for the cop in question. It's one thing to have a system that detects illegal behaviour in public, and a whole different ballgame to be doing the same in private. Something like that would break laws about search without a warrant.

      At the same time, even public cameras need to be severely restricted to uses such as red light monitoring, as my right to privacy extends to the sorts of public places I hang out in, like churches, bars, and S&M clubs.

      --
      "No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
  60. Incredible by Bob+Vila's+Hammer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The one thing that keeps popping into my head is how this system can be characterized in its usefullness. Its like a sense for a simple organism.

    The implications that are present here produce visions of gathering nodes of information and data not just in the random and simplistic fashions of the internet's present structure, but in the processing fundamental functions of seperate personalities and intelligently focused mini-brains automatically approaching a consciousness as they communicate.

    I think the statement made in the article about this "tech being better than the internet" could be accurate, but only when you think on how this could be connected to the internet in some useful way. Where, if the internet is a simple organism, this would be one of its senses - one using the other.

    --


    --"The perfect example of the man of action is the suicide." - William Carlos Williams
  61. Re:Your Tinfoil Hat Will Protect You.--paper hats. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    "The hitch: these networks are a snooper's dream come true, putting each citizen in the same situation as that squirrel in the James Reserve. "There would be a whole suite of sensors in a room that could tell you how many people are there and what they are saying. The implications of this are so huge that we need to get sociologists and legal people thinking about this early," says Roger T. Howe, the director of the Sensor &Actuator Center at the University of California at Berkeley."

    Well we have a man who should know better than anyone on "/.", and he's already saying the same as the poster you replied to. So were's his "tin foil" hat? Remember you first have to know that the sensors are even present, and what kind before you can even think of mounting an effective defense. The "cat and mouse" game will commence. The cat has already plunked down millions of dollars. Were's your money?

  62. Bah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bring on the Star Trek articles. This is boring.

    Anything Star Trek related would be fine, but NO MORE WESLEY CRUSHER STORIES! You know who I mean.

  63. It was a (bad) joke! by jonr · · Score: 2

    Besides, soon we will have cars with ceramic engines and kevlar body... :)
    J.

  64. the invisible ship? by nounderscores · · Score: 3

    I recall the navy had a system of running current along loops of wire in the hull of the ship to nullify the magnetic signiture of their vessles when they suspeced that they were close to magnetic mines...

    It won't make you totally invisible, however.

  65. Remote Sensor System by RobM9999 · · Score: 4, Informative

    FYI - Deployable remote sensor systems are not a new concept. The U.S. Army has been using them since about Viet Nam in one form or another. I had the pleasure of visiting Iraq in order to deploy sensors during Desert Storm. The systems in current use can be seen here.
    The system in this article appears to potentially be the next generation of this sensor system.
    (Any current or former GSR feel free to drop me a line)

  66. Re:CENSORSHIP IS BAD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So you'll uhhh, censure their right to censor? Aren't you effectively censoring their opinions on censoring?

    You bad American, you! BAAAD!

  67. yes, big brother wants to watch, listen, smell... by twitter · · Score: 3
    "I like to be conservative about things, but in a way [sensor networks] could be bigger than the internet. The net is relegated to a small screen and a keyboard. This will detect who you are and where you are. The whole analog world will interface with the net," says Clark Nguyen, a professor of electrical engineering on leave from theUniversity of Michigan to develop sensors for the U.S. Department of Defense's Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA).

    DARPA has made sensors a top priority, putting up $160 million of its own money and $500 million in matching funds from other U.S. government agencies....the data being sent (video, audio, chemical signature)

    But don't worry, top heads are working on the implications.

    ...The implications of this are so huge that we need to get sociologists and legal people thinking about this early," says Roger T. Howe, the director of the Sensor &Actuator Center at the University of California at Berkeley.

    I'm told that the University of California at Berkely has a copy of 1984 in the library. Someone there might have read about what happens when sensors are so pervasive that it's possible to listen to someone's every word and gesture. Orwell, however, did not imagine intelligent machines such as Carnivore, which could filter "suspicious" paterns and people from the noise. Double plus good purgewise.

    People must bellyfeel crimethought. Double plus good kill terrorist and five unidentified accomplices, one US citezen without trial. When big brother knows, everything you do will be easier, safer and more fun.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  68. ugly ugly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There both hideous, I'm glad we don't have them down here (AUS).

  69. Old News.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is old news... A company in PA (Nu-Metrics), USA was doing this stuff in the mid 90s. They have developed a whole line of stuff... it also measures road surface temp, conditions, traffice patterns, speed, size, and Magnetic class, etc...

    http://www.nu-metrics.com/

    They used to have a traffic camera online, but I can't find the link off hand... No affiliation, used to attend classes at the PennState Campus down the road from them.

  70. inverse more likely. by twitter · · Score: 2
    I can imagine a story in the future where someone calls 911 about a bridge that looks about to collapse that is ignored because the sensors say the bridge is fine.

    How many bridges collapsed last year? In the same period, how many electronic gadgets failed? Fail safe is false positive. It won't work till the sensors are monolithic and embeded within the structure itself, such as part of a composite build up layer. I've got little faith in conventional epoxy on steel strain gauges to report anything but false fails. Critters, frost, dew, corrosion and gremlins will break them.

    The "Smart Dust" project refered to in another post and the goal of pervasive audio, visual, chemical and other monitoring is a much more disturbing notion, however. Combined with intelligent local filtering, such a network would enable personal tracking and monitoring of all "suspicious" people and conversations. It would be like a giant prison with robot gaurds to keep us all correct. Lierally, no place would be private and there would be no need for the embeded "ID tags" some fools seem to desire.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  71. Border watch by Jetson · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I could kinda see this being used for speed checking using the time elapsed between passing different sensors (like VASCAR) if the sensors could differentiate certain cars. Or knowing where you are at any given time. Hmmm. Any other suggestions?

    There are sensors just like these along various stretches of the border between British Columbia, Canada and Washington, USA where the two nations have parallel streets separated only by a shallow drainage ditch. They are presumably there to detect when cars stop to toss bags of marijuana over the border.

  72. I can see it now... by mtec · · Score: 1

    Lone Iraqi soldier with a garbage bag and a 'sensor scooper' - picking up thousands of little plastic sensors - picks up last one... C-130 flies by and drops thousands more.. you hear "chraa! chraa! chraa!"

    --
    Cake or Death? Cake Please!
  73. Ahhhh!!!! my pacemak-------- by libertarian · · Score: 1

    ROFL!

  74. I've heard about this by ghastard · · Score: 3, Interesting

    While we were learning about induction, my high school physics teacher talked about a friend he had who worked for a large company who worked on the technology behind the unique magnetic signature detection. It worked very well, and was tested somewhere (I think it was Germany), with very good accuracy. A vehicle could be identified moving throughout the city.

    The major drawback to this was that the technology relied on specific patterns formed by the car running over coils under the street (creating inductance). This worked very well if the car's physical makeup didn't change at all, but if someone were to put some scrap iron in the trunk, the unique signature would be changed.

    This was actually done quite some time ago, I think in the 1980s. It's pretty cool technology, because the underlying concept is so simple, but it isn't practical in the real world.

  75. Re:Sounds cool... but.... not novel or anything! by idontgno · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Jebus, gang, it's not the first time the US has used air-dropped sensor nets in combat.

    Check this.

    I guess the novelty is "self-organization" of the data flow over the network itself, but that just feels like buzzword-compliance and military contractor snake-oil to me. And I'm in the military, and recognize snake oil at 30 paces.

    But yes, the network traffic will have strong mil-grade encryption, and also have tamper-prevention doohickeys which will destroy all the sensitive and expensive bits if Joe Badguy tries to pull an "all your keys are belong to us".

    --
    Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
  76. Trebucet! by nuxx · · Score: 2

    Wow. Roads that run parallel? And they are expecting people to stop on them? Wonderful. :) Now I know what I have to do in order to retire... Move to BC, get some shady friends, and then build a fairly consistant trebuchet. The trebuchet would be relatively quiet, as would the bags of organic matter hitting the ground. Now the trebuchet would be hard to explain, but that's what the SCA membership would be for.

  77. Jamming? by nuxx · · Score: 2

    Has anyone thought about just taking a few old speaker magnets (or the nice ceramic magnets from hard drives) and epoxying them to the frame of the vehicle at various points? Or perhaps in a line running width-wise on the vehicle?

    I think it would be safe assumption that this would cause horrible problems for these sensors...

  78. Re:Obligatory Mirror by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Parent is YAGL. (Yet another Goatse Link)

  79. Re:Your Tinfoil Hat Will Protect You.--paper hats. by DaedalusLogic · · Score: 2

    A valid point... but think of this... chaff... invented to fool radar systems of the WWII era was simply strips of metal or some other reflective material. Chaff cost very little compared to radar which cost a very large sum of money, and it severly reduced or eliminated the effectiveness or radar. Simple tact and using countermeasures when crucial is what's important.

  80. Amazing progress by SiliconEntity · · Score: 4, Informative
    Here is a good, detailed report on the sensor network experiment. It concludes with this amazing quote:

    There is nothing in the current motes that can not be miniaturized. In three years this demo will be done with a 6" aircraft, and millimeter-scale sensor nodes.

    This is all leading to "Smart Dust".

  81. Re:SHORTEST BOOKS EVER WRITTEN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm greek, so F*CK you! Greeks and Jews run the country.

  82. Re:Your Tinfoil Hat Will Protect You.--paper hats. by lommer · · Score: 1

    actually, a bit of interesting history there...
    The first chaff was actually christmas tinsel wrapped around a bail of hay

  83. Harder to say than to do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is really really hard to make a reliable target detection based on a signature from an arbitrary distribution of sensors. The results casually reported in the article were probably achieved after a long period of classifier development and training. The training probably involved passing the exact vehicles that were detected through the sensor array, over and over, with various distributions of sensors. No hard information was reported -- no probability of detection or false alarm rate. We know from earlier slashdot articles on biometrics that pattern recognition systems can be fairly easy to spoof. The mention of fingerprinting and face recognition in the article is especially ironic, since those are the exact approaches that have been shown to be so easy to break. It will probably be awhile before anyone is confident enough to rig a bomb based on an arbitrary sensor array targeted at an untrained vehicle... at least on their own driveway.

  84. other methods by Parsec · · Score: 2

    You could also probably identify the vehicle by the characteristic radio frequencies given off by the electronics. If not the style, at least the manufacturer and model year.

    Then calculate and display its location on the heads-up display on your windshield. But someday vehicles will all be RF tagged anyway... "CowboyNeal's Pinto at 5 o'clock and closing fast."

  85. Re:Solution? by CrazyDuke · · Score: 1

    /me mounts a demagnetizer on the bottom of his truck.

    >:D

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
  86. License plate readers, transponders by billstewart · · Score: 2
    License plate reading technology will keep getting better - the main limits are camera deployment, image quality, and CPU, all of which keep growing. Image quality grows partly because of cheap camera resolution increases, though partly because of careful deployment at good reading angles. But if you don't already have a transponder on your car for one of those automated toll-collector systems, they can always add one to your license plate - no need to have the auto manufacturer involved.

    If you're only collecting occasional data, rather than full scans of everybody, technology's been there for a while. A couple years ago, when San Francisco was going to close the Central Freeway, they spent a week videotaping license plates of cars that took it, had a bunch of convicts at the local prison read the plate numbers, and sent everybody a postcard saying that they were planning to close the freeway and please find an alternate route to work. Did the job just fine.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  87. Aetherwire's Vingean Ultrawideband Locators by billstewart · · Score: 2

    Another group that's doing research in this space is Aether Wire & Location. They're building localizer frobs with the objective of getting down to coin size, and doing lots of work on Ultrawideband networking technology, which is good at very-low-power connectivity.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  88. Got a new engine for my van - that'd work. by billstewart · · Score: 1
    My van probably no longer has the same magnetic signature as a stock 87 Chevy van. As with my previous Chevy van, it did the classic American Car trick of having the engine go foom at 110K miles, and the replacement is a similar but different hunk of big iron. It's also slightly different in other ways - occasionally the computer system decides it's not behaving in the expected manner and lights the "service engine soon" light, which stays on until I reboot it. (Usually this happens when I'm accelerating uphill for a while.)

    Most non-US cars don't encourage this kind of modification - Volvos advertise getting multiple hundreds of thousands of kilometers, though if you've got a significantly old Volkswagen beetle, they got more like 25-50,000 miles (40-80Mm) per engine, unless you did one of those external oil coolers.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  89. Localizers by ahogue · · Score: 1
    Sounds very much like what Vernor Vinge calls "localizers" in A Deepness In The Sky. Tiny (in Deepness, they're dust-sized) sensors that form an ad-hoc network. You only need access to a single sensor to hook in and get data from the entire network. Vinge has them powered by microwave pulses from the ship.

    Very cool stuff.