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Mobile vs. Desktop Gaming
Mr.Tweak writes "TweakTown has just posted an article investigating Mobile vs. Desktop gaming in their latest article entitled "New Age Computer Gaming - Mobile vs. Desktop Investigation". The article compares a Dell Inspiron 8200 with ATI Mobility 9000 graphics to a standard desktop system with nVidia GeForce4 Ti4200 graphics. Can notebook gaming really be taken seriously? We think so, and so should you!"
Why a Dell Inspiron? Wouldnt they be better off with something more targeted towards gamers, such as the Alienware 51m Laptop?
Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
Uh-huh. Wake me up when your sissy laptops can provide the same gaming experience as a 21 inch CRT and 5.1 surround speakers...
The biggest problem of mobile gaming is there is mainly one game in town, the radeon 9000. The gf4go is not bad but its not the best either. Mobile has caught up enough but its going to take a while for people to think of laptops as gaming machines.
unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
Of course power is going to be the signigicant factor in mobile gaming. With the newest generation of video cards pushing the limits of even 300 watt power supplies, there's no way the meager 30 to 40 watts of today's high end mobile systems could be ample to power anything even remotely competitive.
But only one problem battery. Yea unless we have long battery lives this wont really do. Most laptop owners will use it for gaming when they have spare battery life. So if we have 20 hour battery backup, which dosent burn you then maybe yes!
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
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Can notebook gaming really be taken seriously? We think so, and so should you!
Now this is freedom of thought.
Don't forget to think different.
with power consumption going up on these video cards, watch out for hot laptops: they might burn you.
fix ghosting on LCD's and I'll ditch my CRT. Make the labtop keyboard bigger, and I'll ditch my keyboard+CPU....wait....then all I have is a small form factor desktop w/ a built in monitor...hmmmmm
and fucking expensive.
bloody small screens too.
people love to steal them.
can't upgrade.
go to the fucking gym and learn to cart that desktop pc around.
fuck me.
troll out.
Please send an 8200 to: http://xipperhead.com c/o xipperhead blah blah blah Canada
We all know that ID didn't want it out because they don't want people to judge the final product on it. I also belive that most people who would download and install it are big fans, and be quite aware that it wasn't representitive of the final product. But when TweakTown publishes frame rates, without even an attempt at a dislaimer, they're not doing anyone any favours.
"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
do laptop's always seem to be "on the brink" of desktop performance? Do sites just repeat this news item everytime a more powerful laptops come out? The Geforce2go was a major step; this is a normal business cycle advance. The performance of laptops is never anywhere near the performance level of a similarly priced desktop, and that has been static for 15 years, yet over and over again we get reports about how laptops are becoming more and more like desktops... please.
When I am on the road there is no space to pull out my little baby optical mouse and a hard surface to use it on. Tried playing Medal of Honor with the trackpad? Entertaining to say the least.
The keyboard as well leaves a lot to be desired. My Compaq Evo N160 (P3 1.2GHz, 512MB, Radeon Mobility M7) has rediculously sized and placed Ctrl keys. How the hell am I meant to crouch! The test bed for this article however uses a Dell, and I notice that their keyboards are normal in their key placement.
For this reason, gaming is not quite as good as a desktop. Even if the hardware is, (my laptop was quite quicker than my desktop up until recently) the interface is not up to scratch. This sort of includes the LCD monitor, too.
WARNING: This sig does not contain a joke
The real problem with gaming on laptops isn't the frame rate. These days, the type of one-generation-back video chips in portable computers can stil give you a good frame rate, even in modern games.
The rub is the display. LCD's just aren't very good at fast action. The switching times are too long, even on pricy units. Even screensavers tend to ghost and blur on an LCD.
BF1942 is easier to play on a CRT, and will be for the forseeable future. Maybe when new technologies like organic LED's come online, gaming on laptops really will be an option.
Why compare a laptop with a Radeon 9000 to a Desktop with a Radeon 9000 when you can compare it to something totally different and draw your conlusion about laptop gaming from that!
If you're looking at the performance of laptops for gaming, you make your desktop as similar as possible.. same RAM, same CPU speed, SAME VIDEO CARD. Otherwise, it's not truely useful stats.
ther is no way laptops can provide the gaming experience provided by desktop pc . well.... it may be able to run those games but desktop rawks and rules with a sound blaster 5.1 and Radeon 9700 Pro and 19 inch flat ...
man my pc rawks
waiting for doom III
Too bad they couldn't have tested this one too...
Bringing mobile gaming to new heights
nVidia GPU Delivers Fastest Mobile 3D Performance
Nvidia to launch NV28M at Comdex - The first known notebook design is slated for Q1 next year, from long time Nvidia partner Dell
Or did you go out and buy some Dell stock.
Get a free ipod.
The only comparison test I want to see is a true bang for the buck test. Let the testers build the best system they can for say $2000 and let them go at it. This is the only comparison that makes sense, as anyone going for ultimate performance will no doubt be building a desktop anyway. Whatever, the article is poorly written anyway.
It sure sucks down on batteries, but for a portable gaming machine, it's the shit. A few specs...
- Pentium® 4 @ 2.8GHz
- 512MB DDR SDRAM
- ATI Mobility RADEON 9000
It's dope as shit, plus, you can get the trick (chameleon) paint jobthat alone, in my humble opinion, is worth the price..., but after all, I'm all about the looks (& FPS!!)This is a big fuck-off laptop, that chops batterys like Pacman with pills!
Then, its BIG not mobile, you can NOT walk down the street and play, nor can you sit down on a bus/tube and play (well you could for like 5 mins! The processors shut everything off in battery mode, thats if you keep it for the hole 5 mins before some twat runs of).
First things first, let me get this straight. I'm all for frame rates. But i don't like to be elitist about it. 40 plus is fine for me, or anything where it doesn't realistically affect my frame rate.
Laptops do contain some awful video cards sometimes, and that's usually the decision made by the company at the time of specification. Way before actual production. But there are a few that are pretty good. Namely the high range of dells running 9700s and i believe there is a dell with a gf4 chipset in it also.
Say if you are thinking primarily of frame rates, i'm sure you could find something worth buying which wont be an embarrassment at the next LAN party. (I myself have a Dell 250n, and it's wonderful for me).
The main aim with a laptop is portability. If you remember the last BYOC LAN you went to, i'm sure you can also remember the annoying part of getting your pride and joy unplugged from the desk, all into the vehicle of your choice, and then unpacked at the actual location. With a laptop, it goes without saying this kind of affair is an absolute breeze.
That's why i chose my laptop over upgrading my desktop, which now stays at home. Yes, there are some games that take a while to load (namely Battlefield 1942, but i'm sure i'm not the only one facing *that* particular problem), but overall, the tried and tested LAN games (quake 3, UT, CS...) are all perfect for this machine, and many like it.
I noticed a comment about a 5.1 system being unavailable to a laptop. This is untrue, especially with the Creative Audigy external USB soundcard. And anyway, who's prepared to take 6 speakers to a LAN party? Chances are you'd use headphones anyway, and with many laptops carrying virtual surround sound in their chipsets, you could be better off with most desktop owners.
A note on the Alienware a51: i was actually going to buy this machine, but after shopping around (something i normally don't bother doing), i found that there are many better machines, at much lower prices. Realistically, You're paying for a brand.
The story, in a few words: we compare two different computers and find that they both run games.
Woo-hoo. What, were they expecting the laptop hardware to be magically unable to run games or something?
What might have been useful would be to time how long the Inspiron lasts running games off a battery, just for interest's sake. I'm an occasional laptop gamer myself (Inspiron 4100, though), and my battery life drops from 4 hours (per battery - I have two) to about 1.5 hours, when playing games.
...since both the ATI Mobility 9000 and nVidia GeForce4 Ti4200 are no longer considered high end...
Geez, since when? Last Wednesday?
I still play with a Voodoo2. and except for Tribes2, every game I've tried has been at least reasonably playable (although it'd never win any framerate competitions).
i recently bought myself a Dell Inspiron 8200. The Inspiron made it because i wanted to have a notebook to play contemporary games with. For Online-Battles against my friends i didn't want to carry my PC even though it's only a Minitower. Surely it won't be the perfect hardware for Doom III, but HalfLife, Civ3, Anno1503 or Mafia all work fine. I'm completely satisfied.
Yours, Martin
The Slashdot effect, or Activision (distributors of id's stuff these days) lawyers?
I had 2 and know 5 people with Dell I8xxx series, they are flimsy and 3 of them have had problems with display hinges becoming lose and all of them with ribbon cables and video connectors coming lose.
I can match my friend playing against me in Quake III. He takes my PC, with a Geforce 2 and a 17" CRT and I have my humble 600MHz iBook (and optical mouse thank god - Q3 with the trackpad is a joke).
OK, so I have to throttle down the textures to 16 bit and reduce the resolution slightly (less than you might think) but it still gives a very playable game with no slowdown (only on truly giant maps when I get out into large open spaces).
I just have to work out a way to counter him when he has the railgun. He is unnaturally accurate with that thing, even on the move. Perhaps I need a graphics tablet with a built in screen... pixel point accuracy... you'd never miss!
n.b. i just clicked the link and it is indeed stackable, damn. nice
-fren
"Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?"
I have a fully loaded Inspiron 8200 (1gig ram, etc), and have used it as my primary system for the last two years.. (I have went through an 8100, and an 8000 during this time). I am tempted to purchase an Alienware system, however my main sticking point keeps haunting me.. (I'm trying REALLY hard to ignore I can get a hyper-threading laptop from the right now)... 3.066 GHZ!!! with a gig ram, HYPER THREADED!!! GAH!!!
However, I must have a docking station.
I am also blessed with a nice 21 inch LCD (Samsung 210T), with an 8 port blackbox KVM to switch around my local boxes at the house. I shudder at the thought of having to actually plug in a monitor / keyboard / mouse / network every time I want to bring my system online.. I can't bring myself to spend another ~3500$ on a laptop that can't fit into my current infrastructure.
Another side note is the fact that Redhat 7.3 runs quite well on my system, dual booted along side windows 2000 (for games). It IS the perfect lan party solution due to it's size. I can play BF1942 with acceptable frame rate, as well as all other games currently out (haven't tried the doom 3 alpha though)...
Doom 3 is going to cause a LOT of problems for me, as I may have to switch back to a desktop for my primary environment.. I just hope those guys at Dell can hurry up and get an 8400 armed with the new TI 4200 mobile chipset out SOON...
-Dextius Alphaeus
Mobile gamings is fine.
No, you can't get the top, top, top of the line video card in your laptop; but gone are the days when the laptop sucks compared to the desktop.
I play quake3, warcraft 3, neverwinter nights, etctera, on my laptop with no problems or complaints whatsoever. No, I don't get 300 fps at 1600x1200 in quake3, nor do I really care.
Forgot about the drives in my previous post.
;)
Yes they're horribly slow, my external firewire drive at 5400rpm is a lot faster than the laptop's internal 4200rpm.
BUT! Rescue from slow drives is at hand!
See the following article at Extreme Tech.
IBM will soon give us 7200rpm mobile drives! I see myself spending more money on my laptop next year... Oh well.
Off topic: are the P4M and the ATI7500 in the IBM laptops "removable" at all?
Enjoy!
NetNewsWire into Yojimbo!
but my eye tests don't indicate so.
My vision is actually quite sensitive.
I don't think you've actually used a modern LCD, or you wouldn't be saying this. This used to be very true; however, I can attest that the screen on my Toshiba Satellite 4200 definately has no noticeable ghosting, and is *just fine* for playing any video game I've put on it. Never ONCE Have I said "Boy, I wish I had a crt, because this looks crappy"
I went from using a 21" monitor to this LCD, because the LCD looks better, including running video games.
Gaming on laptops is really an option, believe it.
Testimony of a Sony Vaio user.
I got myself a Vaio gr314mp nearly a year ago. It comes with a 1200MhZ p3 and the 16meg version of the mobility radeon 7500 and runs a lot of games fine. Multiplayer Quake 3 and Medal of Honour in 1024x768 run at a perfectly playable 30-odd fps (with some smoke effects and alpha-blending off... the card OpenGL drivers need careful tweaking to get good performance.)
My main reason for going laptop was I am on the road a lot, so a desktop isn't feasible for me. I have to say, I'm very chuffed with the results.
I love being able to lie in bed and play computer games. I spent about 2 months playing neverwinter nights on the train into work, and that made the time fly. I've even once or twice played mohaa over wireless while cooking dinner. This shit is great.
But... I don't ever expect to be playing doom 3 on this baby. The big thing is always the graphics card (lower processor speed and ram tend to be acceptable a lot longer), and I don't think I'll be wanting another laptop for games once this one loses its edge, unless I know I can plug in an external graphics card. A year of gaming for about $800 of depreciation isn't quite good enough.
Can anyone tell me why external pci-cards haven't caught on yet? Bus bandwidth wouldn't seem to be an issue if the architecture was right...
As soon as this becomes the norm, or I can swap in a new card when I want to, I will be happy to play on a laptop and pay slightly over the odds for improving game performance. But as it is, the computer I have now will soon be utterly useless in the face of new games.
The mobile gaming idea is superb, and the reality of it is great. Throw longevity in the mix and I'll never go back.
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As long as high-performance chips chew lots of electricity and turn it in to lots of heat, desktops are modular, and laptops remain branded items rather than generic I can't see this situation changing.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Absolutely.
Can't always upgrade them.. but WHO CARES. I mean, okay, if you are on a ghetto budget like most of America or the rest of the world, I guess a component PC at home is way cheaper and easier to upgrade once in a while when you finish begging for change on the streetcorner and get enough nickles for that new video card/ram slice/whatever...
But some of us just sink a bundle into a sexy new rockin laptop to make everyone on the airplane/hotel/yacht jealous every 18 months or so. Really.. count up how much some overclocker fiends spend in a year incrementally upgrading their computer.. then look at what they could have bought if they waited and saved the money.. it's surprising.
This is absolute rubbish. My Sony Vaio LCD has a fine update speed, and not a ghost of a ghost when running at 60fps (the screen hz) or better.
Well, unless you stare at it for 8 hours plus. After that your eyes start to ghost and blur. That's the real problem.... sometimes its also a useful indication that it's time to go to bed too though...
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If in doubt, visit sometime one of those gaming forums sites, like EsReallity.com. Discussions of input devices do appear there more then often.
Not to mention the fact that I yet have to see at least one gamer (pro prefferably) which uses LCD (or similar technology) monitor. :)
Leonid Mamtchenkov
Then I thought about upgrades.
With a laptop, you're practically stuck with your video card and processor, not to mention CD/DVD drives or sound. Yes, I know it's possible to upgrade these parts, but the cost of them far outweigh the convenience of their desktop counterparts.
A laptop would be great for gaming if, for example, Doom III were never made and the technology required to play games plateaued. I don't see that happening, which is why I'm still using a mini-tower for my gaming needs.
In areas where obtaining top performance is critical, the desktop will always win. This is one of those cases. The designers of laptops almost always need to make concessions, reducing performance, flexibility or other features of the laptop in order to meet the key design goals:
small size
low power consumption
When your goal is to maximize performance, you are not going to give size and power consumption any consideration. The same exact idea applies to wireless networking. Because of FCC limitations and other factors, it will probably always lag behind wired networking.
A laptop is probably adequate for gaming, but many gamers are out for total frames-per-second. And this at any cost...
High End Laptops are performant enough for gaming but simply not modifyable enough for top of the line gaming. Ut2k3 runs only on very recent hardware and matching up to every new gaming with laptops is simply to expensive.e e UT2k3 performance. I doupt a laptop could do that just now. Ironically, people who need top-of-the-line boxes are usually the ones that travel around to LAN partys and Clanwars.
150 Dollars will upgrade my geforce 2 gts to a card that has enough oomph for a 5-people-shooting-at-once-on-CTF-Magma-map-lag-fr
So, no, buying a laptop for gaming is pointless.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
The Dell Ultrasharp display rules! It is fast :) And yes, I play some of my 3D games at that resolution.
and it looks gorgeous! (It also sucks a lot of power
no
Just for the information of the ones that like to flame on people who claim to need 80 fps or more.
FPS isn't the same all the time! When you test FPS in a quick singleplayer it can be as high as 60 and still break in to a useless 10 when you're in a hot pursuit of 3 enemys along with 4 teammates, with everyone firing at maxrate. A max of roundabouts 80FPS minimum is needed if you don't want to notice a performance break when everyone meets for the big showdown in the center of a map. FPS break-in is noticed once it goes below 20 and that will allways happen eventually on a laptop.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I have to admit, I've been lusting after the new Tibooks, which come with the Radeon 9000 mobility video cards. I know that they don't get -all- of the new games right away, but how do they perform on those games they do get?
-Pete
Dear TweakTown (and all web developers (are you listening Tom's Hardware)),
I REALLY don't like having to click through 6 pages to read an article (when it's really slow, it makes me just close the browser). I understand that you like to call it 6 hits, and you get to charge 6 times for the ads, but really. Unfortunately, I got the first page, and left your site because I was not going to keep going through this, even though I wanted to read the article. Could you please stop this.
Love, Spackler
FWIW, Everquest, with all the expansions up to Planes of Power (I gave up on EQ about a month before the buggers released it) ran alright on my laptop, even with all the newer models on. NeverWinter Nights plays great, as does No One Lives Forever and NOLF2. I ran all of these games at 1024x768 resolution, and the only concession I had to make was reducing the effects on NOLF2.
The only reason I'm saying this is that my laptop is a Compaq EVO N115. It was absolute entry level when I bought it in September: 1.2GHz Athlon 4, 256MB RAM, 20GB HDD, 16MB Shared video (up to 32MB, S3 Twister K).
I didn't buy it specifically for gaming, and I scoff at anybody who does buy it specifically for gaming, as the framerate on the LCD is the limiting factor: you'll never get as high a framerate on an LCD as you can currently get on a CRT, because the LCD technology relies on moving of crystals in suspension to draw a pixel.
What I found, though, was that most games are playable if I made a few concessions. They're nowhere near as good as they are on my desktop, with a GF3 Ti500 64MB video card, and I don't expect them to be. But if I'm on the road, or at school, and I get bitten by the desire to play NOLF, I can. And I got that ability without having to shell out $6,000 for a high end laptop. In the end, I paid $2,000 CDN.
If you believe everything you read, you'd better not read. - Japanese proverb
Mobile Gaming == GameBoy Advance OR Any damn cell phone
I'd like to add to that.. For all the people who think 300+ FPS is a waste, since your monitor only refreshes at 60-125hz.
They don't think about minimizing the effects of tearing, when you're turning or strafing in a game. With vsync off, there will always be tearing, but with the extra horsepower, it'll be less noticable.
At 300 fps, there will be 5 tears as your turning, each stepped a little behind the other. This is much less noticable than the one wide tear you'd see at 60fps.
People always slam new tech. Hell, I remember people bitching that 16 bit color was a waste, the 256 colors they got in MCGA mode was all that was needed.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Yeah, baby! I'm on a Dell Inspiron 5000 with a measley ATI Rage 4mb video and 256mb RAM. How does it perform? As well as a desktop would with the same hardware, of course. Right now, I'm only just beginning to not be able to play some games on the shelf -- mostly because of the lack of a video card with 3d accel. But here I am, on exchange, and it's here with me. I would not, could not, have lugged a desktop out here with me. Also, I've picked up some software that has helped smooth the edges -- including FPS problems with a few of the faster games.
The things that makes it a decent gaming machine make it a slightly less good laptop. I hate carting it to class -- it's got a 15" screen so it's pretty heavy, but that means I have a full size keyboard and can watch movies without hurting my eyes. Also, with an optical mouse, I can use it anywhere. Also, I've got a surround sound system at home, and you know what? Everything sounds better with a great pair of headphones. And power outages? Our campus got hit with a 9-hour power loss the 2nd day of exams last spring. My classmate had yet to print out her extensive notes for our open-book exam. Whoops. Me? Unaffected. So heavy it might be, but it's the best of all possible worlds.
Now I'm just wishing I'd gone for the DVD drive. The thinking at the time: for the same price as the DVD add-on, I can get an actualy DVD player. I mean, am I going to watch movies in class? (course, then I go on exchange, and here it is, and where's the DVD player?...)
Why a Dell Inspiron?
The reason is simple: Dell has paid TweakTown to advertise on their site. TweakTown needs a boost in traffic to justify to Dell the ad spend so they can say 'See, Mr. Dell, we have lots of unique visitors so its a good idea to continue to advertise with us.' Thats why you should NOT click thru the link and help artificially boost his traffic numbers.
There is a kick-back going to 'Mr.Tweak' for every Dell sold thru the TweakTown site:
click this link, and you'll be supporting TweakTown! .
How much 'investigating Mobile vs. Desktop' do you honestly think went on?
This is the worst kind of whoring (karma-whoring or otherwise) I've ever seen here. And no this is not a troll - its very much a commentary on the problem of having self-proclaimed experts publish their supposedly objective 'investigations' and 'reviews' without clearly stating their obvious conflict of interest from the start.
As many have pointed out below this really isnt an issue. Mobile hardware specs are always going to lag behind desktops and game developers have a tendency to create their best games for the high end (e.g. Unreal Tournament 2003), which means that laptops won't always be able to run the latest games. I'm surprised MrTweak/MrDellSalesman didnt call his Dell infomercial
'Dude! Youre getting a Dell!'
As much as I love ATI, if you try and run UT2003, Linux version on this system, you will fail. You need an nVidia card with their closed drivers to currently play UT2003 in Linux. Get a decent laptop with a decently priced nVidia chipset, and then come talk to me. Or get your hardware venders off their lazy behind. Have them relesse the specifications document for their card while you're at it too.
Every six months or so I make a 1000 mile drive with my dad down the eastern seaboard. That's a decent drive -- about 14 hours -- so we like to keep ourselves entertained. I have a laptop for school, so I just bring an inverter, hook up my laptop to the car's power supply, attach a gamepad to my serial port, and play on my NES, SNES, N64, or PSX, depending on my mood. It's quite fun -- I can beat the entire Super Mario Series (SM All-stars, the SM Worlds, and SM64) in the time it takes to get from Georgia to Virginia (before we switch and I drive while my dad takes a break).
::shrug::
.02USD
As far more recent stuff -- my laptop (Inspiron 4000, 950 PIII w/ an older ATI Rage Mobility) does Q3A at 60FPS in 800x600 with pretty high details. The only thing that sucks is the LCD screen -- it sucks ass quality-wise. More recent 3d games (UT2003, SOF2 etc) don't run that great, but adventure games (Longest Journey, MGS -- still a classic) and 2d games (Worms, my emulation stuff) run very clean and very fast. (it also plays DivX movies, so all of my LEGAL LEGITIMATE rips of my own movies run quite nicely). The only thing that sucks about the whole setup is that after a while my lap tends to get a bit hot.
My
-Aaron.
student of animation and the fine arts
It's an Alpha, which means its full of buggy code and hasnt been optimized to the point where the final product will eventually perform. That also means that any benchmarks run using something as unstable, sloppy and chunky as an alpha are a false measure and therefore are completely unreliable.
The cool factor or street cred he thinks he might gain by using a leaked bit of unstable software as part of the testbed are completely worthless when trying to establish some reliable manner of measuring performance.
As Jericho pointed out, using the alpha demonstrates poor judgement, not only because it's technically unsound (or even for the legal risks), but just as a matter of common sense.
Alienware's 51m is located Here
It comes with the Radeon 9000 pro standard now, and optionally you can get the new P-4 3.06 GHz With HyperThreading.
Hyperthreading is worth it, and this laptop is ideal not just for gamers, but since adobe runs faster on a P-4 with H/T eanabled (see the Tom's video for proof -- 3.06 H/T enabled beats a 3.6 noticably and visually in how long it takes for software to get back to you so you can actually start editing that video/image etc)
I'm really glad to see the Gamer's PC vendors getting into the notebook market seriously though. It's about time serious PC users could get a laptop with Today's cutting edge technology, instead of last years technology from places like dell.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
IMO, this is a non-issue anymore with the prices of desktop pc's being so low. If you need a portable, you invest in a PORTABLE machine, not an all-in-one slightly smaller form factor desktop. I payed $1500 for my ibook, and if I feel like playing games I'll spend the ~$400 it's gonna cost to set up a fair desktop gaming system. Am I missing something here?
This is a goatse.cx redirect, with a url long enough you have to copy/paste to notice it.
second of all, it's not even right.
ATI has focused on keeping power consumption low, to reduce the problem with heat dissipation. True, Nvidia is throwing out blast furnace cards that Require an air-intake... but ATI is managing to keep ahead of nvidia, while still sticking to low form factor heatsinkfans instead of 5 lbs monster copper heatsinks that could easily snap the AGP port right off the motherboard, if transported installed.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
The only problem with laptops is that they are difficult to upgrade. How long will a laptop be fast for the newest games? Not every long.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
and a notebook mouse, but both are easily remedied. What I wonder is by the time a notebook gets to be capable won't Ultra Uber Mega Small Form Factor PC's fit in my shirt pocket ? With serial ATA coming, and thinner wafers how long before the concept of a laptop is outdated ?
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Oh yea, the sound of thousands of geeks realizing that got ripped off. Although a true geek would have done his research and found out the supplier before buying.
My impression of my Alienware owners is that they are mostly Posers with lots of money to spend(read:waste) and are the same type of people who ask "what the best speaker I can buy at Bestbuy?"
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
Hey, I use my notebook for gaming all the time (at least once a day) and my other machine has an LCD, too. I use that one for gaming somewhat less, but it still gets used.
I play 4-5 FPSs and check out demos of others, so I'm not talking SimCity, here. On my notebook, I'm able to crank up the resolution to 1400x1050 in AvP2, UT (although, not 2k3, but that's hardly surprising), Mobile Forces, Alice, Colin McRae Rally 2, and the list goes on and on. I have had no inclination to run and find a CRT to use while I'm playing any of these games.
I use the same mouse on both machines, so that point is invalid, and I like the short keystroke on the notebook (which is full-sized).
As for joysticks, what would I be using that I couldn't plug into my USB ports on the notebook?
You make valid points, but they've been adressed already.
Currently I have a Inspiron 8100 with a Raedon 7500.My one friend has a Inspiron 8200 with a GeForce2Go. My other friend has a Inspiron 8200 with a GeForce4Go.
The performance from these laptops are good enough for the games we play.UT2003, Empire Earth, Warcraft III, Quake3, etc. If the settings are left at medium most frame rates from these laptops are very playable. The strategy games are a breeze with these video chipsets. Hell, on a cruise to Alaska my friend and I brought our laptops and a crossover cable and played games at downtimes. Games while waiting for delayed flights and "On Ship Days" are great fun and kills time quickly.Throwing together a LAN party with mostly laptops is much eaiser than lugging huge heavy monitors and towers. People are much more likely to come to the party if they don't have to lug a huge ammount of stuff to it.
My friends and I have seen the light of powerful video chipsets in laptops. Yes we usually play only in places that have outlets (because of processor stepping) so this leaves planes out but it does include trains, airports, ships, hotels, cabins, campers, etc.
We choose Dell for the laptops because they are one of the only companies that sold the high end video chipsets in laptops. Also, I've got to have Debian on this laptop so I knew Dell laptops don't have many problems with Linux. At least in my expierence with them they don't. I have not had any problems with Linux on my Insprion 8100 Raedon 7500.
I have a friend that bought a laptop like 9 months ago to use for LAN parties. It's like a 1.6, with a GF2 Go, pretty decent size hard drive, and 256mb of ram. At the time the machine was fine, but already the machine is going to be on the lower end of the performance spectrum. The major problem with laptops as gaming rigs is that there is no upgrading the video processor! Had my friend bought a pc, not only would it have been cheaper, but with the money he saved he could have upgraded the video card two or three times! The proprietary design of laptops is what keeps them out of any sensible gamer's top pick for gaming devices. Wouldn't you agree?
The past is just the present only older -me-
I replaced my aging desktop with an IBM ThinkPad A30 over a year ago and have been using it exclusively ever since (unless you count my old IBM Aptiva Debian File Server, which is the only other computer I own). It does everything I want, including gaming perfectly. Sure, sometimes I have to play at only 1024x768, but other than that I've never had any problems. Hell, I spent a couple hours playing Natural Selection before I checked Slashdot, and server side lag was the only annoyance.
God forbid you'd actually talk to your father during the ride.
Also, something else I'd like add about pro gaming. Check out major gaming championships, like WCG. Which games are played there? Quake III, Counter Strike, FIFA, StarCraft... One of the reasons these games are chosen is because they are popular. Another - they can push the hardware to the limit and make gamers get interested in purchasing newer hardware. Yes, that's right - you need someone to sponsor those competitions. Most of these games are unplayable (seriosly) on the notebook.
I agree with your point about USB devices getting popular. But, if you will have to drag with you Genius PowerWheel with Pedals (don't tell me you play Colin McRay without it :)), Sony headphones, a proper mouse and keyboard for that matter, then using your notebook actually loses any sense. It becomes almost as easy to bring a proper box, using something like GearGrip Pro.
Leonid Mamtchenkov
Of course, that's actually a good thing for Linux users.
Sure, I don't have the $'s to blow on a hot new laptop with the latest graphics card, but I've found that a Toshiba Satellite Pro laptop with a fast PIII processor and Trident 3D chipset is good enough for usable gaming with most of the 1st. person shooters.
I used to take it to LAN parties simply because it spared me a need to lug around a bunch of parts including big monitor. I could get their later than most of the other people and still be up and running faster than they were. When it was time to go, it only took minutes to put it all away too.
I can't say for sure if UT2003 will still run ok on it - but games like Age of Mythology do. It ran the old UT just fine, as well as all the Quake games, Half-Life, and others. Frame rates weren't impressive, of course - but playable. To me, that's the main thing.
I write this post on an Inspiron 8200. After getting increasingly fed up of hauling around my huge Athlon box and 17" monitor, and being stuck inside on a sunny day (a luxurious that doesn't last long here in the UK) I got my first laptop.
I got the 8200 as a desktop replacement and so for the graphics card (Geforce 4). Although I'm not a huge gamer, as long as I could continue to play Tony Hawks 3 I'd be happy. And I hoped it would last me longer than some of the cheaper laptops.
This 8200 has the Geforce 4 440 Go with 64mb, 1.6 p4 and the 1600x1200 res screen (UXGA something). The screen is amazingly sharp; Quake 3 @ 1600x1200 with all the graphics options on max is stunning! However, lesser resolutions blur very slightly so one finds trying to run all games at 1600x1200 results in slowdown on games some new games. This high res also has strange effects on some old games where low res bitmap textures look awful (eg TOCA2).
If you can afford a laptop with a decent graphics card, get one! Plus you can take it anywhere, link it to your mobile phone and read Slashdot (like I'm doing now!) I have definitely been converted to laptops.
Fantastic.
I bought the Inspiron 8200 about five months ago when the P4-M 2GHz processor first made it to market - it's a 2Ghz machine with 512MB RAM, 60GB HDD, 15" 1600x1200 screen, two batteries, geforce4go 440 64MB, 24x10x24x/8x combo drive and integrated 802.11b Orinoco wireless (they call it a Dell TrueMobile 1150).
I take it everywhere, especially to LANs. It's a heavyweight machine, around 4KG with both batteries inserted. But it's essentially a desktop machine - I use it as my desktop machine for everything including games.
It was a logical choice for me as I run large LAN events such as the Shafted Big Day In and attend LAN events on a weekly basis. It's really, really handy to pick up the unit and head off to a LAN, no lugging large PCs/monitors around which simply aren't designed for it.
It's fast, even at 1600x1200. Quake III Arena, Return to Castle Wolfenstein and Halflife (and its mods) run smooth (and I would guess the R9000 would outperform it based on the benchmarks at Tom's Hardware Guide vs. the Geforce4Go 440). UT2003 is a little more demanding without the vertex and pixel shaders of the R9000 so I usually stick to 1024x768 - quite acceptable.
The screen is a nice size. I've decided that anything bigger than a 17" CRT is too big for gaming as your eyes have to move across large areas of the screen too frequently, so in a notebook, a 15" screen is about as big as you would want. The image scaling, as I run my Windows desktop at 1152x864, is very decent and readable on the Geforce4Go 440 although I have read that the R9000 does a FAR better job. Those who are sensitive to high frame rates and refresh rates on CRT screens may find the LCD a bit annoying - it's not the blur effect that one would expect - the Dell UltraSharp(R)(TM)(C) screen has a 9ms rise/16ms fall response time, so as the screen is only statically updated at 60Hz (vs. the 120hz of my 17" display at home), you notice the difference in frames a lot more than a CRT - remember with a CRT, it blurs a lot more so you don't see the frame transitions. So you don't get blur, but it's like watching a movie. Most people don't notice it, in fact, only one other has to my knowledge
It runs Linux. The nVidia drivers work like a charm. It plays games under Linux. I haven't tried FreeBSD yet with the nVidia drivers. While the nVidia site says that the mobile chips are not supported, they are - this is purely a "support" issue, not a driver compatibility one. Oh, and I run at 1600x1200 under Linux - X on a notebook with generous desktop realestate is just way too nice.
For audio, me being a bit of an audio buff, is Dell's major letdown here. They use the Crystal Semiconductor CS4205 AC'97 system which is hardly nice. I do use headphones but the lack of accelerated audio really gives some games a good 5%-10% framerate penalty, even more if the game is badly coded (eg, Battlefield 1942). You don't get directsound 3D or any funky multichannel audio. You do get SPDIF digital out so you can run it to your receiver or 5.1 channel speaker system and do AC-3/DTS passthrough when playing DVDs.
Battery life is nice, realistically, I get around 4.5 hours off a pair of batteries compared to the spec-sheet times of 1.5 hours for Toshiba's equiv model at the time (the Satellite 5100, the current being the 5200 claiming 3 hours but could be a result of a second battery as they added this ability in the 5200). My reasons for going Dell were based on battery life and support more than anything else.
So in short, a great machine that offers pretty much all the basic features of a desktop machine and is an excellent choice for LANners.
heh....
Ive some expearence with dell'n notebook line in this respect as well... I spent some time working for a part of the government reburbing, among other things, dell notebooks(latitude cpi D300xt). A full 1/3 of them had bad hinges after one year of use. Another 1/3 of them had bad hard drives, but that's hatichi's fault....
go figure.
My UID is prime and so is this number: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0.
I have a Dell Inspiron 8200 with an ATI Mobility 9000, it's great for gaming. I run UT2003 on 800x600 resolution, benchmark flyby 91 fps, botmatch 38 fps, with all options on 'high' and character details on 'highest'. This low resolution so that action will not slow even on largest outdoor maps with lots of bots.
Great gaming rig. And the Dell Ultrasharp display is second to none. Wide viewing angle, high brightness and contrast. I have no desire to go back to desktops, because this machine I can take with me to the lazboy, couch or even bed, and play wherever I like! LAN parties are a piece of cake.
It also helps that the video cards in Dell laptops have been separate daughterboards for some time now. You can upgrade your video card. There are old Inspiron 8000 and 8100 owners who have upgraded to the ATI M9000.
Best of all is that you might be able to convince your boss that you need this for work on some obscure 'productivity' reasons...
Ive got myself a Compaq Evo N610c (not one of those crappy presario machines that radio shack is pushing...) It runs Quake III and Warcraft 3 just fine.... the only thing it needs is more RAM. While it is true that it does not get 100+fps, the himan eye can only see about 70. Does anyone care of the computer is drawing more frames than you can see? The only thing my coputer needs is more RAM, the thing only ships with 256mb, and with all the stuff I've got loaded on it it needs about twice that
My UID is prime and so is this number: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0.
Dell offer the C/Dock II docking station which includes full PCI capability. Although you need a Latitude notebook (or an Inspiron flashed with the Latitude bios - The 8200 is the same system board as the Latitude C840 although the Latitude is marketed towards businesses), it goes to show that the capability is there if you really need it, say, for audio or SCSI. The C/dock II includes SCSI as well.
Counter Strike? You think Counter Strike pushes my hardware to the limit? And I'm sorry, but I bet I could play QIII, FIFA and StarCraft very well on my notebook (I don't because no one I know plays them). Seeing as QIII has miniscule system requirements, I don't see how my hardware would be a limiting factor in that.
By seriously, do you mean well enough that your skill is the limiting factor on how well you do, or just getting bragging rights? With any of the games you listed, I could do either in my circles with my notebook.
I can stuff my mouse and headphones in my backpack with the notebook, I don't need a different keyboard and even with a GearGrip, my desktop is ungainly and I'd have to carry a monitor. I also bring all my software in case something goes kerblooie. That and some DVDs for downtime. How is it better for me to bring my HUGE tower along with that stuff when my notebook gets roughly the same (or better) performance?
Also, I don't play CMR2 at LAN parties, and even when I do play, I don't use a wheel. I like CMR2, but not enough to get a controller I can't use with any other game. Especially since I only play it at home by myself.
Hmm, well, it seems you level of game playin is purely on "let me enterttain myself" level. I do not say that I am pro, but I have spent numerious hours on my Q3 skills and playing on the notebook for that matter is simply a disgrace to myself, meaning that I can outperform the monitor, the keyboard, the mouse (or toucpad), and defenetly the sound of the speakers. For the same matter, I can EASILY kick any butt playing CMR2 with the keyboard when I use my wheel and pedals. No question about that.
:) Sorryz.
Consider it a side note, but using keyboard AND a mouse in the FPS game is extremely important, since when you seriosly play the game, keyboard is not able to process all the requests fast enough (everything has it's limit). Same goes for wheel+pedals for CMR2. As to sound, it is as important in Quake3 as sight. I wish I could have bookmarked URL to that demo where two guys duel - one with only sound and another with only sight, and the one with sound wins, both of them being players of the same level.
Bottom line: If me playing on a notebook to be called player A, and me playing on the same level hardware but desktop being called player B: player B kicks player's A's butt easily. Until that's changed, I will not seriosly consider using notebook for playing.
Leonid Mamtchenkov
OK, so you're saying that even if you use the same keyboard and mouse you do on your desktop and wear headphones, you'll still suck on a notebook? I'm sorry, but I don't buy it unless you've just got a mental block.
You say sound is important, but you think standalone speakers are better than headphones at a LAN party? With other people using speakers in close proximity, how can you hear only what's coming out of your machine?
Besides, if you're that concerned about it, you can add a CRT to the stuff you carry and still have only a fraction of the stuff to carry than if you brought your desktop.
I've also spent ours on my AvP2, UT and Worms skills so I can win at LAN parties. I do have other games just to play on my own (like CMR2 and Alice). That doesn't mean I only play to amuse myself.
You still haven't refuted anything I've said. Just because you don't want to take the time to learn that using a slightly different keyboard shouldn't destroy your skill doesn't mean I'm wrong. I've addressed all your concerns in my setup, but you still say it won't work. I can't say I have much respect for someone who can't adapt.
I'm well aware of the Clarke quote. My sig is a parody, not a paraphrase.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
(firing up Frotz) I'm of now for a good game of Utopia....
ZMachine is my gaming platform.
What makes a man want to be a mouse? (Python's Flying Circus)
Besides, if you're that concerned about it, you can add a CRT to the stuff you carry and still have only a fraction of the stuff to carry than if you brought your desktop.
No, I am not saying that. I will actually perform the same on the notebook, if I have my keyboard, mouse, headphones and CRT attached to it. What I am saying is that if I have to carry all that shit around anyway, then it doesn't make much difference wheather I am using a notebook or a normal desktop PC.
Yes, notebook will take a bit less of space in my car, when I'll be on the way to LAN, but desktop PC will give me few more FPS, and I have plenty of space anyways.
You say sound is important, but you think standalone speakers are better than headphones at a LAN party? With other people using speakers in close proximity, how can you hear only what's coming out of your machine?
Maybe it's just me, but on the LAN parties that I attended, there were no speakers what so ever. Everyone brings his/her headphones. And sound IS very important.
I've also spent ours on my AvP2, UT and Worms skills so I can win at LAN parties. I do have other games just to play on my own (like CMR2 and Alice). That doesn't mean I only play to amuse myself.
Respect
You still haven't refuted anything I've said. Just because you don't want to take the time to learn that using a slightly different keyboard shouldn't destroy your skill doesn't mean I'm wrong.
I am a real pain in the ass when it comes to keyboards. Really. Whenever I have to be either precise or productive, I use my own keyboard. Notebook keyboards just don't fit (stupid Function key always gets on the way, small Enter key, small Backspace, etc).
I've addressed all your concerns in my setup, but you still say it won't work. I can't say I have much respect for someone who can't adapt.
Well, the whole issue reminds me the arguments about fuel vs electric cars. While electric cars are about as powerful and fast nowadays as their fuel counterparts, still not a lot of people would prefer them. It's not the tech spec which matters to most. It's the feeling. I get the same ugly feeling every time I have to use a notebook. I can't adopt to using a let's-break-our-fingers keyboard. I can't adopt to is-that-nipple-really-a-mouse thingy. I can't adopt to carrying twenty items just to make myself comfortable and call the thing mobile. You don't have respect for me for that, that's fine with me.
Leonid Mamtchenkov
No, I am not saying that. I will actually perform the same on the notebook, if I have my keyboard, mouse, headphones and CRT attached to it. What I am saying is that if I have to carry all that shit
around anyway, then it doesn't make much difference wheather I am using a notebook or a normal desktop PC.
You already said if there were 2 of you, one on a notebook and one on a desktop, the one on the notebook would lose. Which one is it?
Yes, notebook will take a bit less of space in my car, when I'll be on the way to LAN, but desktop PC will give me few more FPS, and I have plenty of space anyways.
And you'll also have to find a place for it on a crowded table, carry it in and back out, and all just for a couple more FPS that you won't need anyway. How is it you can think that a notebook with a keyboard, mouse and headphones will take up as much space as a desktop, monitor, keyboard, mouse and headphones? They are not even close to equal. With my setups, that means an extra 70-100 lbs to bring the desktop. That's not insignificant.
Maybe it's just me, but on the LAN parties that I attended, there were no speakers what so ever. Everyone brings his/her headphones. And sound IS very important.
OK, so why did you even mention the notebook speakers if you wouldn't be using speakers anyway?
I am a real pain in the ass when it comes to keyboards. Really. Whenever I have to be either precise or productive, I use my own keyboard. Notebook keyboards just don't fit (stupid Function key always gets on the way, small Enter key, small Backspace, etc).
And again, a keyboard doesn't take up much space, and I can fit one in the backpack I bought specifically for the notebook. Trust me, it beats the hell out of your precious GearGrip pro. I can carry stuff inside and still have my hands free to open a door.
I get the same ugly feeling every time I have to use a notebook. I can't adopt to using a let's-break-our-fingers keyboard. I can't adopt
to is-that-nipple-really-a-mouse thingy. I can't adopt to carrying twenty items just to make myself comfortable and call the thing mobile. You don't have respect for me for that, that's fine with me.
I've never used the mouse nipple. I don't have to. I also don't use the touchpad. Even with the 4 things you mentioned you couldn't live without, plus a few extras, my notebook is out the door taking up less space and weighing much less than even just my other box. That's just the other box, not including any input device, monitor or cables. And it straps to my back and has spare room in it. If you think that's less mobile you're sadly mistaken.
Mainly, I think my lack of respect stems from your inability to compare. You're telling me you have to bring 5 lbs of stuff, so you may as well bring another 60. For that matter, why not bring your whole desk?
Ok, you win. I am unable to properly compare due to the period of time between posts, and I am just plain lazy to go back and refresh my memory.
You made good points and I will rethink my positioin and arguments on notebooks in gaming. Thanks for the inspiration.
Leonid Mamtchenkov
People seem to think that the blanket phrase, "I only work here," absolves
them utterly from any moral obligation in terms of the public -- but this
was precisely Eichmann's excuse for his job in the concentration camps.
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A Severe Strain on the Credulity
As a method of sending a missile to the higher, and even to the
highest parts of the earth's atmospheric envelope, Professor Goddard's rocket
is a practicable and therefore promising device. It is when one considers the
multiple-charge rocket as a traveler to the moon that one begins to doubt...
for after the rocket quits our air and really starts on its journey, its
flight would be neither accelerated nor maintained by the explosion of the
charges it then might have left. Professor Goddard, with his "chair" in
Clark College and countenancing of the Smithsonian Institution, does not
know the relation of action to re-action, and of the need to have something
better than a vacuum against which to react... Of course he only seems to
lack the knowledge ladled out daily in high schools.
-- New York Times Editorial, 1920
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