Slashdot Mirror
UK Team to Study Rainmaking Machines
RobertB-DC writes "The BBC reports that a Edinburgh University team has received a grant to research Wind-Powered Rainmaking Machines. You have to have winds blowing towards a mountainous coastline, but the article says that the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf are well-suited. For a cautionary note, though, the BBC includes a link to the story of a 1952 cloud-seeding experiment gone terribly wrong."
Scotland needs more rain. After Scotland, France!
We call them "clouds."
This is good news for my grant application to deploy a sand-making machine in Algeria.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Who wants odds on how long before weather is used as a weapon in war?
Or how long it takes before everyone but NATO is not allowed to fix their weather, as hurricanes are weapons of mass destruction?
visit the hwky website for a lyrical genius infusion.
I coulda sworn MSNBC had run a story about such a device a while back.
...it's a beowulf cluster of Blackfoot indians in some sort of recursive dance.
the most mysterious thing you'll see today
If we can control the weather, who will have the authorization to use such technology? Somehow, I doubt that I will ever be allowed to get my hands on this stuff if it ever comes around.
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
We should avoid these sorts of experiments until we have a good understanding about how our weather works.
I just turned on my experimental firstpostmaking machine!!
Apparently, it doesn't work so hot.
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
How ironic that British scientists are trying to develop ways to make even more rain than the country is blessed with getting (I suppose it gives us more reason to complain about the weather - although as a Brit in CT, I'm finding it bloody cold here).
I remember hearing years ago about how to stop clouds from raining over certain areas, by planes dropping concrete powder into the rain cloud that might disturb an outdoor event (or something that would be spoilt by rain). Although I can't vouch for the truth of this tale, but the first thing that sprang to mind when hearing this was of concrete clouds falling from the sky.
But then again, we all know clouds are held up in the sky by string.... all we need is more string and wind machines ;-)
Are you local? There's nothing for you here!
"People have been trying for many years to modify the weather, from tribal rain dances through to experiments in which small crystals were dropped into clouds to attract moisture."
I don't know if anyone has noticed, but to me the weather the past few years hasn't seemed quite normal to begin with. Floods and heavy rain where it normally doesn't rain much, tornados in odd parts of the country, lack of snow where there's usually plenty....So why would we want to modify it by adding extra moisture in the air and making it rain in places which normally receive little rain to begin with? What would be the effects a few hundred miles away? Really, what's wrong with normal irrigation? It works, and doesn't affect the weather.
To quote:
She recalls: "Mum identified her by this huge wart on her back because she hadn't got no head, or arms, or legs when they found her".
The ability to cause floods on seemingly calm days, as the story notes, is a terrific advantage.
Seed the sky to seize the enemy.
But hold on, do we really want the weather to be run in a manner similar to such public services as the US Post Office or (shudder) the British Dental Service? I can see it now: some impoverished nation will be saddled with a National Department of Rain, complete with overpaid, slovenly employees and mounds of red tape, which will manage to get the rainclouds set up two days after the crops have all died, or right in the middle of a soccer game.
It is hoped that a private interest who might benefit from this technology, say a responsible, efficient agricultural conglomerate like Archer-Daniels-Midland, will be able to fund and deploy these rain-making devices, ensuring that plenty of water is available for all on an efficient market-driven basis. This would be a prime example of the kind of benefits globalization can bring to both the developed and developing countries of the planet.
or cold for that matter
Professor Salter told the BBC: "We are trying to break through the layer of rather stagnant, humid air...
Fitting, non?
More rain for you probably means less rain for some or all of your neighbors. Sorta like the USA frequently using up the entire Colorado River before it reaches Mexico, Saudia Arabia might just suck up a lot of the rain headed towards Iran. Bu you know, I doubt that that would cause any problems :)
"Ninety million tonnes of water swept down the narrow valley into Lynmouth on 15 August, 1952, destroying whole buildings."
That's like, what, five inches of rain? Who in their right mind builds houses at the bottom of vallies anyway?
North Devon experienced 250 times the normal August rainfall in 1952. [...] She recalls: "Mum identified her by this huge wart on her back because she hadn't got no head, or arms, or legs when they found her".
I hate to be skeptical, but... the article seems to imply that this rain making experiment caused all this water to suddenly fall out of the sky. But what makes my "bullshit" meter go off is whether there is that much water in the air in the first place. I mean, 250 times the normal rainfall? I could see if you had some natural storm system come in that just happened to have a ton of moisture, but just to create out of "thin air" (so to speak) that much water out of normal conditions just doesn't sound plausible.
Particularly since if it were that easy, we would never have droughts.
Something isn't adding up here.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Of all the countries that would want to generate more rain, why England?! Don't they get, like, 17 days of sunshine a year??
Hrm...
If you force the rain to come down, NOW, RIGHT HERE, aren't you preventing the rain from falling on your neighbors? What if there is a drought and the neighbors need the rain?
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
If this cloud seeding really does work, and it's possible to generate up to 250 times the average rainfall for an area (as was the case according to the BBC report), then why the hell don't they test it in a place that wont kill anyone. You know, like, say the Australian outback, where 250 times the average rainfall won't pose a risk to population centres, and the scientists can test away to their hearts content 'till they figure out how to control the process.
Janie took my gun...
Wait, the United Kingdom want to make rain? Them? Why?
/ Per
I hate sunny weather. Fortunately, I live in place which has more "good" (overcast/drizzly/rainy) weather than bad weather (sunny). I would hate to think that in the future, some sun-poisoned weather-control-freak could ruin everything by _preventing_ rain! Of course, if they made it rain more often ...
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
Seeing as how these things could be built near the Red Sea, which is full of salt, you'd think they might be concerned about the eerie increase in multiplication of deer.
We seem to be obesessed with the idea of playing god. Science is a dangerous "tool". If applied appropriatly, it may make life easier and more enriched experience; however it can go horribly wrong. ;)
I just hope they know what they're doing. Should make rain in their own backyard before they make rain elsewhere
Anyways it would be extremely boring to have a weather controlled earth.....
|/________
|\A|ALYS|
they used a weather control system to make sure there would never be rain on the anniversary of the October Revolution (true). This system involved using cloud seeding to make sure it'd rain BEFORE the big parade.
mkb@libero.it
That's why this new idea is interesting - it's an attempt to actually add moisture to the atmosphere.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
I share another posters scepticism - spraying as much silver iodide or ice as a plane can carry into the air created 250x normal rainfall out of nothing? Sure...
Australia has far more need of enhanced rainfall than Britain. There have been extensive trials by the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO) and overall cloud seeding does not work.
To quote from a summary of CSIRO's findings: "CSIRO has shown that in Australia cloud seeding is effective only in a limited number of weather conditions. Cloud seeding will never break droughts; cloudless skies will never produce rain."
CSIRO have also produced guidelines for water managers considering trying cloud seeding. My take on their conclusion is: it won't work, save your money.
OK that 1952 experiment was a disaster in terms of the damage it caused, but hey! It worked!
Why go to all the trouble of making this massive, errr, "thing" to scoop up sea water when we know that just sprinkling the clouds with silver-iodide and salt (or whatever it was in 1952) works effectively.
Is this a case of "not invented here" (Scotland) or something?
I dispair when a simple scientific experiment, which must be quite easy to repeat, isn't followed up. Why not just use a bit less sprinkle next time, you know, find the balance?
"That's like, what, five inches of rain? Who in their right mind builds houses at the bottom of vallies anyway?"
Who in their right mind builds buildings on flood plains?
I saw a weather program a wee while ago about trying to get clouds to drop their load.
They were flying around in clouds, and the plane had these things on it which made a fine smoke / dust. It said that the dust stuff was actually little wee crystal type things, and moisture got attracted to them and formed rain drops.
Supposedly it works, becuase the dudes who were doing it, were doing it as a business.
...London didn't have enough cloudy days already...
My mother always told me... "Find something you're good at and stick with it."
Mayor of Russia? WOW! That must be like... a god damn huge city!
this doesn't seem too trollish to me, does anyone have more info?
Sure it wouldn't make sense, Saddam killed during a flashflood of the likes which has never been seen before, but who would care? I mean, the government tells us lots about swamp gas and aurora Borealis....
On June 30th, a meteorite supposively crashed into Tunguska, Siberia, leveling acres of trees. Everybody knows that. What people don't know is that the very same day Tesla was practicing with an experimental death ray. Apparently it killed a bird, and he decided to dismantle it. Coincidence? You decide.
I was just going through these posts to spend some of my mod points, and I was astounded at how few people had even given a cursory glance at the article. Unlike other experiments, which involve forcing existing atmospheric moisture (clouds) to precipitate into rain, the equipment proposed would actually add and create clouds from seawater. This is very different in effect, as it won't be taking moisture away from anyone else, but will rather just add a great deal of moisture to the whole region, which of course could have serious effects, both positive & negative.
I wonder what they're doing with all the salt.... it would build up wherever the water evaoporates, mebbe at the misting site? Seems like introducing that much salt into an area would be a problem.
Mod me down, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
In regards to the great flood of '52, I've got to repeat the old mantra.. "correlation does not predicate causality." (eg, "everyone who goes to the dentist dies")
..if even just 5% of our research science budget went to blue sky research, it would be a good thing (and IMO would pay back ++). If only our 'philosopher king' were less of a king and more of a philosopher...
It is very very hard to seed clouds. You've got to get the silver iodide (or whatever) concentration just right- too many condensation nuclei and all you get is suspended fog. Too few, and the dropplets grow too slowly (collision is a major growth process). There've been many attempts over the years, but it is really really hard to prove correlation in the wild.. (send refs if you know otherwise!)
Even if you can make clouds, it doesn't mean you make rain. At all.
Now if they could only figure out the upper reflection vs greenhouse effect balance, more clouds might help solve our global warming problem. Or make it much worse.
~.~
I'm a peripheral visionary.
I thought this was just something they did in the cartoons, but seriously - can you make it rain? If this shit happened like they say in the UK in the 50s, why dont they do this in Texas in the summer?
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
g - is for the gaping ass o - is for oriface to peer into a - is for the smelly anus of lord goat t - is for not s - is for the sexy feeling it gives me e - is for edible . . . yummy assholes! . c - is for the cernal of corn I see in Lord Goat x - is for X-Rated
...something else someone can be sued over.
I have to say it: after we're gone, the roaches will still rule.
Oddly enough something similar occurred in Rapid City on June 9m 1972. Stories from the NWS and MPR.
They forgot to mention the efforts of school children praying for snow.
"Breaking News...BBC reports brain cloud as number one illness in the UK."
What ever happened to the theory that a butterfly's wings, or a bear's ass can have a profound effect on weather in other parts of the world?
"You see, our project is different in that, we use a giant lollipop to lure all butterflies and bears into the ocean where they can do no harm. No longer shall these menaceing creatures cause damaging weather across the globe...oh I'm sorry...excuse me for a moment while I set my 4 story humidifier to high mist...desert air wreaks havoc on my sinuses..."
Yes I know that was probably the dumbest post I have yet to offer on
Wait, don't answer that...
--"It's Bradford Company, slash your last name, dot your first name"
Someone explain to me why every member of the British group wasn't round up and shot for gross negligence?
Also, I read that in order to use laser guided bombs in Kosovo, they had to use cloud dispersing techniques that resulted in horrific hailstorms in other parts of the Balkans. Unfortunately I read this three years ago and can't find any references to it... anyone?
[o]_O
Wouldn't that increase the salinity of the water, which might be bad for sea life, but could also alter currents if the denser water sank?
the first article is about causing rain in coastal areas by "misting" the mountains. (obscure led zepplin reference)
the second is about a deluge which may or may not have been caused by rainmaking experiments
I would ask what the difference is between an attempt to cause climatic change (rain) that doesn't cost people downstream/downwind (like seeding clouds) and understanding and manipulating the genetic code of corn (round-up ready GMO corn)?
Offtopic? Man is the lord of the earth, it is our prerogative to use the earth and every living thing as we see fit. On the other hand we also have a duty to leave something for our grandchildren, eh?
everything is connected in ways we do not understand (chaos theory), so we must be exceptionally careful when we affect the climate.
I noticed that it usually rains right after I wash my car or start planning a golf game. Thus, simply have 1000 people wash their car or plan a golf game right before the desired rain.
Table-ized A.I.
Just what Scotland needs... more rain ;-)
Ever wondered whats wrong with the world? http://www.ishmael.org/
The sole purpose of these machines is to create droplets which will evaporate more easily than the big flat(tish) sea. Basically they just create a mist of seawater.
It's a nice idea. Not enough water comes from the oceans to the air in many parts of the world. The air a few meters above the sea has a potential of a few kilovolts when the waves have white caps. People have theorized that this stops a lot of mass and momentum transfer between the sea and the air. This is the first mechanical solution I have heard about. But there are bugs like Legionnaire's disease that like sprays of warm, damp air. Expect the unexpected, folks...
.... what else they'd be hiding ;-).
Actually cloud seeding does work in Australia. Hydro Tasmania has been undertaking cloud seeding trials since 1964.
e di ng/faqs.html
Check out the faq at
http://www.hydro.com.au/renewableenergy/cloudse
The purpose of the cloud seeding is to increase rainfall in the catchment areas of hydro electric dams. Increased rainfall in these areas reduces the need to use supplementary energy sources, i.e. conventional oil fired power stations which tend to be rather expensive.
Needless to say farmers are less than impressed with these trials. They attribute unusually dry conditions experienced in the last few years on the east coast of Tasmania to these trials, claiming that Hydro Tasmania is stealing their water.
Yeah, it _would_ be pretty hard to find "iodide" anywhere, now wouldn't it. Chemistry? Anyone? Please?
hmm sucking water out of the ocean and those fast spinning blades. /me thinks of raining sushi.
Good opportunity to re-read everyone's favorite mad scientist Wilhelm Reich. Or watch the Kate Bush video (starring Donald Sutherland) on the same topic, for that matter..
I soo this on BBC and i find it impossible, try building an egg shaker as big as the Empire state building, i don't think titanium would stand the pressure, and the energy to make it run...i would have to see it with my own eyes.
The United States is a signatory to a treaty banning the use of weather modification as a weapon. So is virtually every other country on the planet (it was one of those feel-good gestures during the Cold War that didn't really cost either side anything).
Make cheese not war 8:)
How about making it NOT rain?
Anybody wonder why the rainiest place in the UK (not exactly the sun capital of the world in general) is working on a rain MAKING project? Should be easy to claim success, though...
How about a machine to make it stop rain instead? Would be infinitely more useful around here. (wet and cold, as usual.) _ /Bjorn.
This is pure and simple bullshit. Cloud seeding cannot
magically produce moisture, ONLY HASTEN ITS CONVERSION from cloud water to rain droplets. Sure they may have coincidentally cloud seeded before a flood, but that probably had very little to do with the amount of rainfall that actually occurred. Heavy rainfall events rely on a fortiutous coincidence of mesoscale events, not simply dropping some silver iodide around.
If cloud seeding was so enormously effective, it would be used on a regular basis, rather than still debated as to its effectiveness! Many meteorologists still consider it
voodoo. I know. I'm one of them.....
Pan to Dr. Canuck in his secret hideout atop Tim Hortons:
I think the point is that a cloud very rarely rains until it no longer exists, instead, it rains slowly in patches, sheding it's load over a very wide area. With cloud seeding instead the cloud becomes rain very much quicker, so covering a much smaller area, hence flash floods
Many think the Rapid City flood in 1972 was triggered by a cloud making experiment gone wrong.
m os phere&Climate/05c-Lecture.htm
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/unr/iwe/1972/
"In a 6-hour time frame on June 9, 1972, a rush of water poured through Rapid City and canyons in the surrounding area, destroying homes, vehicles, businesses, bridges, and claiming 238 lives."
http://www.rbs2.com/weather.htm
"Lunsford v. U.S., 418 F.Supp. 1045 (D.S.Dak. 1976), aff'd, 570 F.2d 221 (8thCir.1977).
There was a flood in Rapid City, South Dakota on 9 June 1972 that killed 283people and caused extensive property damage. Plaintiffs alleged that the flood was caused by an experimental cloud seeding program operated by the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology, under contract to the U.S.Government."
http://www.sciencescene.com/suckley/evs105/05At
Kate Bush - Cloudbusting
So that is what the video clip was inspired by?
I believe I heard the original broadcast of this programme.
I am not going to listen to the whole thing again just to
check. For a start, I don't have realaudio on my computer.
But the entire series (of which that was just one programme)
was about looking at official documents (which currently
in Britain are routinely witheld for thirty years on general
principles) and reports made at the time and/or subsequently
and piecing together what happened. The news report doesn't
do it justice. There was a lot more than one unnamed pilot
and one distressing story about identifying remains.
I wouldn't say their case was totally watertight. But I'd
say they raised some serious questions about what
happened. Either my government hushed something up to
avoid paying massive compensation, or it's so incompetant
that it can't look after its own records and thus prove that
it had nothing to do with it. Inspiring stuff.
I wonder if this could be used to make snow, the ski season hasn't even started here (Toronto, Canada). Screw the farmers, give me snow!!
Don't know if anyone noticed, but the funding is given as approximately £100,000 (that is, $156,000 or so, American readers). With tiny sums of money like that, you won't have many people working on it nor much money for experimenting with different equipment. British funding for research is pathetically low compared to many neighbouring countries with far poorer economies; the phone company Nokia spends more on research than the whole of Scotland.
It's something of a miracle that any kind of useful research comes out of Britain at all, given governmental reluctance to give academia useful amounts of money.
This BBC article is again an example of what irritates me so often in technical news messages. Both on-line or paper based. The journalist in question uses way too many words to poorly describe a device, where a simple picture or photo whould have explained so much better.
....
But on the other hand they have space available to illustrate with a nonsense image of people under an umbrella. Those people definitely don't need or want a rain-making machine.
We want relevant pictures, we want links!! But that's another issue, journalists never provide links to their sources. Maybe to hide how they just copied it from somewhere
Browsers shouldn't have a back button!! It's all about going forward...
that the Chinese are planning to use rain/anti-rain making technology for the Olympics? I remember hearing that in the mainstream media. Here's a link
Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
Recently several people who used to work for the RAF came out and "admitted" that they were experimenting over dartmoor with rain seeding equipment on the night of the Lynton/Lynmouth floods.
Perhaps it was just coincidence but I dont personally believe that much in coincidence, that the worst flood for over 100 years just happened to occur on the same day that they were testing this system...I dont buy it. Also the fact that they immidiately stopped working on this technique and buried all evidence of it for the next 30 years makes me very suspicious.
we already have an earthquake machine . . . whenever CowboyNeal falls off his bike
hi, I like pancakes -.-- -.-- --..
A few gliders cloud-seeding didn;t cause the flood disaster like the BBC news article claimed. It was going to rain very heavy there and then anyway. Cloudseeding experience over the years has finally shown that it really takes a huge fleet of aircraft, enough to make the sky almost black with them, like in the 1940's allied bombing raids over Germany, to so enough cloudseeding to make a dramatic difference in the amount of rainfall a weather system can produce. Clousdeeding is mostly a waste of money and an excuse to fly an airplane. It is mostly ineffective.
San Diego also experienced massive flooding after an attempt at rain-making in the early 1900s.
Story
Hatfield was apparently quite the rain-maker, but El Nino probably had something to do with it too...
Read a good book lately?
Professor Salter told the BBC: "We are trying to break through the layer of rather stagnant, humid air that's at the very, very bottom of the atmosphere, in contact with the sea surface, and lift large volumes of water through this and squirt them out from 10 metres up in the air as a very fine spray, with a very big surface area."
This is creation, not theft. They are taking moisture from the sea and putting it in the air. As all that water will end up back in the sea and the chances that this project will lower sea level are nil, no one has lost anything. Those who feel the rain will have gained much.
If ten meters is all you need, I would try chimneys to suck the moist air up. No moving parts, cheap to prefabricate, easy to errect.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Opposed to impoverished nations saddled with Red Cross famine relief agents?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
There is no reason, beyond choice, to remain unaware of the facts -- Noam Chomsky
OH. MY. GOD. PLEASE tell me that Chomsky didn't say that. Please tell me that Noam "select only facts out of context that support my insanity" Chomsky didn't say that.
Good freakin' God.
Offtopic, but the screaming, beautiful, hiliarious irony of that statement just made my day.
I thought it rained constantly in the UK. Why don't they just collect it all, and send it to the places that need it :D
Instant Karma's gonna get you...
Back in my day if we wanted rain we had to dance for hours with no shoes. And they werent even called shoes back then, they were "foot-flams". And even when we got some rain, crops never grew, so we had to eat leather, grissle and dust. Damn hooligans and their automatic rain-ma-flangies...
I once shot a man who posted too many, "Imagine a beowulf cluster of these"
Sunny days expose their disregard for dental hygiene.
Tell me, are you only happy when it rains?
Lemme guess.. pac northwest?
Umm no! Cloud seeding enhances the conversion process, but not by a lot...you're talking 10-15 %!They don't rain until they "no longer exist". Pure rubbish!
How can we learn about our environment without scientific experimentation? Yes, be careful when experimenting with large, complex, dangerous systems, but sticking one's metaphorical head in the sand is no way to learn.