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RPG Codex - Articles On Video Game Design
chadeo writes "Ok all you arm chair game developers, listen up. Over at RPG Codex there are currently 4 articles, written by professionals in the industry, on RPG design. There is A Christmas lesson in CRPG design by Timothy Cain, Thoughts on RPG development by Leon Boyarsky, Hand of Gosh Darn Good Design by Chris Taylor, and Treatise on Combat to Pink Floyd by Gareth Davies. All of them are a great read, and you can join in the discussion with the authors and see how your ideas stack up. What do you think is the key to a great RPG?"
but I feel like the best games have already been done. nothing new in the RPG world in a long time, and I *still* like diceless the best.
:)
oh yeah, and first post.
Blood.
"This isn't a study in computer science, its a study in human behavior"
Fazigu Industries makes ODK, a great game development environment. You can even use it to modify existing games with it's decompiler, you can takedown almost any barrier on the fly. Open Source and the silver version is free.
thank you
Most of the things these authors wrote about is common sense. Anyone who has played a few RPGs over the years will know this stuff. Not worth the read. Sorry to sound like such a pessimist/cynic/whatever...
The Welkin: Online Music Reviews
Lots of blood, babes with big tits wearing skimpy leather outfits, and lot of stuff stolen from Tolkien. Just the thing for the adolescent male with no imagination and even less knowledge of world literature.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say that "realtime" combat systems belong in action games, not RPGs. Turn based combat all the way, man!
Start playing Floyd soundtracks during Acid trip stereo-vision intro movies, that is what ever good RPG needs.
"Simon Says, Fuck You" - George Carlin
Interplay. Fallout, Fallout II. Those pansies at Square couldn't even hold a candle to the makers of Fallout.
?-|||-----x<*))))><
And of course, multiplayer options immediately add a needed dimension in today's broadband world.
Its called the Universe, its propeirty (but currently being reverse engineered), 6.3 billion people playing, and things are bought with real money! The winner is the person who manages to solve teh final puzzle (why are we here?)
Nero-burning ROM for Linux!
Since I am a long time die hard RPGer (Ultima series, Drangon warrior series, Elder Scrolls, kings quest) I've found that standard play-by-yourself RPG's no longer hold my interest the way MMORPG. Adding the element oe experiences and relationships with other people make RPG's Incredible
I have great faith in fools; My friends call it self-confidence. Edgar Allan Poe 1809-1845
A "good" RPG needs a serious storyline. Of course, there needs to be blod and guts, the attractive women, a love story (if it's Final Fantasy), a cool beastiary, and sweet weapons, but the most significant aspect that can make-or-break an RPG is the storyline!
How about a detailed world that is actually interesting? A story that allows you to explore that world. And massive amounts of background info for people who enjoy that stuff.
Umm, one that I can beat?
The word fantasy. Final Fantasy, Phantasy Star, Phantasy Star Online.
You're kidding. When did Peter Noone (lead singer of Herman's Hermits) start designing video games? Or maybe you meant "no one" but don't have a strong enough grasp of English to know how to write it?
Mods, click the links before you mod up, ok?
RPG's need something that has very rarely been done: Role Playing. Less focus should be spent on combat, aquiring weapons and armor, and hit point management. Recent developments in user moded rpgs should start to let the plot, dialog, and interactivity of games shine over the same old same old. Big game houses are currently focu$ed on making a product ship with success. Small, part-time mod creators just want to make someone happy. www.mygeekdom.com A little corner of the net I call home.
postmodernsideshow.com
72hr rental on a 14th century scottish castle
24 crates beer
3 day's worth of pizza and junk food
7 guys who should know better
no mobiles
plenty coffee
(oh, and some dice, books, figures, mats and shit).
My point being, it's all about the people, the social dynamics,the fact that you're out-of-time. The system, and the way it's played are secondary, and arguing about that is part of the fun.
Ah, I guess I am.
Yes, Fallout was a neat game, but it's bordering on sacrilege to compare it to classics that Square has produced. Is anyone going to notice Fallout's impact on the gaming scene five years from now? Are they even noticing it now?
--
the strongest word is still the word "free"
Timothy Cain and Leon Boyarsky, two of the four authors listed, were behind the original Fallout game and are co-founders of Trokia games.
So if you like Fallout, go check out what some of the main people behind it have to say about RPG design.
A variety of weapons doesn't mean 12 different types of swords (a la Neverwinter), but different weapons with different ranges and specialities (more like Fallout).
As for leveling... after I hit level 20 in Neverwinter I quit playing. It wasn't the story that drove me to play, but the possibility of becoming more powerful and getting new spells.
Anyway, both NWN and Fallout were great games in their own respects.
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
An RPG is just like a movie, only there is player interaction. A lot of people play RPGs to level up, get the best items, big spells, etc. I just play to advance the plot.
Basically RPGs don't have to do much to be good, they just have to have an interesting involving story that keeps me interested. However, there are a lot of things an RPG has to NOT do in order to not suck.
First it has to not every make it incredibly difficult and stupidly annoying to advance the plot. Imagine watching a movie and halfway through you have to jump through hoops to see the rest. That's torture, not fun. Not to say that the whole game has to be a piece of cake. But if it is difficult to the point of frustration something is wrong.
Second, it can't be incredibly short. I mean longer doesn't necessarily equal better. But on average RPGs that you can beat in a couple days often suck and RPGs that take a while are often much better.
Probably the most important thing to an RPG is direction. I want to be told where the next plot is. Sure making decisions is good, and multiple endings a la chrono trigger is even better. But I don't ever want to be in a situation where I don't know where to go or what to do in order to advance the plot.
The most important thing for an RPG to have (this is a pet peeve of mine) is short sweet and rare combat. I can't stand those games where you walk two steps and then are forced to fight horrible monsters in a 10 minute battle. And then repeat the process 100 times before getting to the next town. Combat should be rare and quick. It doesn't have to be easy, but I want to either win or lose in about 30-45 seconds tops.
Candidates for best RPG ever?
Chrono Trigger
FF6
Golden Sun
Dragon Quest (Warrior)
Secret of Mana
Any Zelda Game
Ack! Too many to name!
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
"What do you think is the key to a great RPG?"
Borderline faggotry between long-haired men with swords.
As many as possible. I'm a math fiend and I don't get enough of it in my job as a software developer ;). I love lookup tables and obscure rules and love working flawed characters in a strict world.
Which is why I loved AD&D, v2, and why with the advent of _D&D v3 I have moved on to gurps. Yes, there are cool classes. Yes, it is nice that ability scores go to 500 or whatever. But that doesn't help my gimpy thief with the 9 dexterity -- and that's his highest score. When I play D&D3, i have to mince around like a pansy as even a pinprick does 2 HP damage nowadays.
Gurps has a chart for anything you can think of and a rule that tells exactly how to do it. There's no penalty for being a clever player (as the DM says "roll against your intelligence, dummy"), and therefore no defense for hack & slash.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
I do not want to run around smacking monsters to level and collect gems.
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
The evolution of console rpg's would take a huge leap forward if they once and for all decided to eliminate random battles. A lot of times you just want to explore, not slog through 20 battles with same monsters every 5 steps. This is an artificial extension of game length that seriously hurts the gameplay of most console rpg's these days.
you're still talking about it, aren't you?
Frankly, I haven't noticed the impact that any of the FFs have made on RPGs, mainly because they haven't made much of an impact at all on PC RPGs. Fallout on the other hand has.
Personally, I think that most console RPGs suck because of the very limited freedom the player has. You have to be this character, who has this backstory, who is enemies with this person. PC games (like fallout) allow a degree of freedom that I've yet to see matched in console games.
Josh Winslow
The key to a great RPG is to be part of the Final Fantasy Series
those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. -isaac asimov
great excerpt taken from the fourth article (for those of you who don't read the articles)...note, RT is referring to Real Time (as apposed to turn based RPG)...
Myths
"RT is cool" - As defined by who? Don't believe the hype kiddies, and besides, as an avid RPGer, I know we have nothing to do with cool. While we're sitting in a basement rolling dice, swilling Mountain Dew and other snacks while pretending to be mighty warriors in an alternate universe, cool people are out doing lines off naked women because they can. It still puzzles me why certain RPG developers seem so intent on following trends, when their consumer base couldn't be trendy, even with a +10 Bag of Conforming to the Social Norm.
sorry, just had to post that, it cracked me up...especially the "+10 Bag of Conforming to the Social Norm" line...how bout that, a RPG developer with a sense of humor...
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true." - Homer Simpson
This is a very tasteful and creative troll.
The key to a good RPG is that it is a good escape. I play RPGs to escape the boring monotony of real life and get a glimpse into some other world. This is one reason why MMORPGs are so addictive. From a story point of view, they suck. You sit around and kill things all day. What is so attractive about them is that you have real people to talk with. It makes it a sort of world outside of this world. And that is what a lot of people are ultimately looking for. They are looking for a world to escape to when the real world seems too burdensome.
That's a good one. First time I've seen a Goatse post be moderated positively.
the most important thing for an rpg is ammunition.
you know, when 6 aliens are coming at you from all sides, you dont wanna run out of it.
Fleur de Sel
Thank you...I had a good chuckle when I saw it get modded up +1 Interesting so quickly. The game is good, though, if you've never had the chance to play it and you're interested.
I think I enjoyed Final Fantasy VII mostly because the story was the most emphasized part. A good story offers emotional connection to the characters and the situations. In the end, it makes you more prone to play your character with actual zeal, not just go through the motions to trigger the cutscenes.
A great RPG should have me saying "I'm gonna kill that bastard," after he offs one of the main characters. My mood should be affected by the plot.
Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES!
One of the biggest features all great RPG's have is the lack of skills required to get good. The ability of your character has to be directly proportionate to the amount of time you've played the game, that way, all the obsessive players can feel good about all the time they waisted playing the game.
Highly recommended.
One annoying and disturbing trend I noticed recently is the "actionifying" of RPG combat. It started with FF7 in my opinion, where you had to hit the button at the right time for Cloud's sword to fire. IT was worse with Legend of Legaia (Which I liked, and I enjoyed the combat, but my wife HATED It because she plays for the storyline) and then I've seen recent games where you have to hit multiple buttons in a row during combat as dials and boxes move around and occasionally sync up. It means that instead of pressing one button a few dozen times per combat you have to dedicated a lot of though to the combat itself. This is REALLY annoying when you like to just level up and go to the next story. If you want to make a fighting game, make a fighting game. If you want to make an RPG make an RPG. There should never be a human reflex based combat portion. I'm playing the role of my character, not myself. If I have only one hand, and that hand only has one finger, I should still be able to play the game.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
The greatest of the RPG's are not the ones that make the most money always. The ones that rake in the funds are the most addictive of RPG's. Especially when you talk things like EverQuest and the other mmorpg's.
As the market becomes more flooded in the next few years, people will burn out on the addicted games and finally the demand for the better games may improve more.
After playing RPGs for a lifetime like there's no tomorrow, I have a suggestion that I believe could spice RPGs somewhat. I have even eMailed companies, but I get not even an automated response. :(
Many RPGs, especially "traditional RPGs", have you combat groups of monsters over and over. However, if you check it out, battles are small and many. You have to be strong on the long run, and you normally do not need to be very strong for any particular battle, except special ones. (Bosses, etc.)
My suggestion is to have RPGs with less battles but more complex. It just shouldn't be done by using the same routine over and over. Make me really think my strategies. Also, I prefer "realtime" battles over static ones -- if I take to long to make a choice on the menu, the enemies attack.
My two cents.
I wander around my neighborhood with a big stick (which I refer to as my Crystal Sword of Belzar) and a ghetto blaster. When I encounter an animal, I make this kind of alarm noise and start the action music going on the ghetto blaster. I beat the animal senseless with my sword. Then I check its body for gold, but I never find any. Then I take out the notebook I carry with me and add some random number between 1 and 15 to my total. I'm up to 4582.
This is a classic. Looks like the Don Knotts guy has returned!
I have to say, I absolutely love your sig! When I first saw it I HEY! SPIDERMAN'S ON!
In the midst of worthless trolls, there are a few who hone their skills still...
The music is the most important part!
:)
On a completely unrelated note... Young, talented musician (piano), working on a master's in music tech, with degrees in music and computer science needs a job
Morrowind
"Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
I couldn't have put it any better with a +3 megaphone of "you are a geek".
MORTAR COMBAT!
OK, there are two. The personal interaction was always important to me. But the main aspect of any RPG which managed to keep my interests was the flexibility to allow for real freedom of action.
For example, you run into a locked door. How about removing the hinges? Chopping the wood? Going through the transom? Digging out the mortar out around it? Way back when I was DMing the original D&D, my friends would come up with this sort of thing all the time. Of course, it meant I had to constantly be thinking. But that was the whole fun on it. It wasn't "follow the line and use the objects exactly the way we intended" play.
Of course, that's why I didn't use the canned scenarios then, and why I don't play much RPG on the computer today.
I don't see things in black and white; I see the gray. Heck, I actually see in color, which makes things more difficult
One annoying and disturbing trend I noticed recently is the "actionifying" of RPG combat.
Adding action to the game just changes it slightly. It makes it RTS + RPG instead of plain RPG. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself.
Of course, if the story is strong enough there's no reason not to allow players to turn off the rts (or at least the rt) part of the combat, like some square games do.
If I have only one hand, and that hand only has one finger, I should still be able to play the game.
But surely you still could play the game..?
Oh, you mean the computer game... sorry.
If you can't see this, click here to enable sigs.
In some games, the action elements are completly optional. I agree that the games that FORCE you to use the action elements and then procede to call these hoops features are crappy, but all the FF games have had the action elements be optional. You can go through the entire game without using the overdrives that require you to push the buttons, or line up reels, etc.. (In FFX for example).
Most console RPGs are more action oriented then the computer counterparts. Personally, I don't find the computer games that much fun because they are too stat oriented. But that's exactly why so many people like CRPGs as opposed to console games where the primary reason for playing is plot and graphics.
What do you think is the key to a great RPG?
pretty much the same key to real life: bitches and benjamins
What do you think is the key to a great RPG?
The key is to not be on a computer. No computer can match the flexibility and resourcefulness of a real, live, flesh-and-blood person. CRPGs and face-to-face RPGs are 2 very different things.
Ed Wedig
Graphic design services
docbrown.net
Of all the RPGs I have played there is one outstanding feature that sticks in my mind and which all good RPGs MUST have, IMHO, to be enjoyable: atmosphere.
Obviously factors such as story, reasonable graphics, etc are all important but that is the case for any of type of game. What matters is how these elements interact with each other to product the overall atmosphere of teh game. ake the Bladerunner rpg for example and Nintendo's Zelda series - both are really immersive games due to the continuity and great sense of escapism produced by the games' ambience.
Rake Free + Mac Poker: CardCrusade
Fallout was one of the best RPGs I have ever played, CRPG or PnP, period.
MORTAR COMBAT!
is a cult following.
The key to a good RPG is the the story... and ultimately the Ending. I hate it when I feel the entire quest was not worth the 4 second ending. Take for example FFIX and it's 15 min ending. At the end of the game you have a sense of acomplishment rather then a sinking feeling of "Great but now what."
A space hamster. Every game need a space hamster.
It never ceases to amaze me how ignored multiplayer options for console RPGs are. I think most people will agree that Secret of Mana is a great game only made better by playing it with a friend. There's simply no excuse for how few since then have supported multiplayer. Keep in mind I'm referring to console RPGS. Are there any out there BESIDES Secret of Mana that let you do this? Alon D'ar for PS2 has some multiplayer elements but other than that, I can't think of a single console RPG that lets more than one person play simultaneously.
I'd like to see RPGs that explore more historical time periods. Has there ever been a game that explored pre-Columbus North America or even Native American societies in general? or Rome of some period? Vikings?
Funny how I just got my registration card for E3 and this gets posted...I think these guys are going to have a seminar about exactly the same stuff there. I should bother to look it up, but why bother? RT in RPG is nice and all, but gets annoying really fast when you need to make 4 different characters do 4 different things at the same time (yes some games like this lets you pause, but that doesn't even feel right). We need more Turn-Based RPGs that are good then RT RPGs that are bad...
The key to a good RPG is a good acronymn.
Case in point, NWN. A perfectly symetrical one (if you reverse the N which makes it that much cooler), an exquisite palindrome. An excellent complement for DND (yet another palindrome).
I know that's what I look for.
come on fhqwhgads
...the RPG is addicted to YOU.
...to realize you were talking about Role-Playing Games and not IBM mainframe programming. I should have known better.
The aspect which I most crave is obscured player stats. If you hide the numbers, most people would stop obsessing over them.
Get rid of explicit classes. Classes should be implied by action. If you don't act your class, you become something else.
The story needs to be flexible. Certain possibilities in the game should disappear after a set period, and no one should feel bad about it. There shouldn't be a static world. Instead, you should have a room full of people working on a constantly evolving world that takes into account the actions of players.
Allow regions to be depopulated of monsters.
Design for characters to interact. Remember MUDs.
I'm Abram Bender. You're not.
The key feature, for me, is atmosphere. The best games are those that makes you feel inside the game, such as Chrono Trigger, Valkyrie Profile or Nethack.
Prescriptive grammar:linguistics
The roles play you!
Really, a good RPG in many ways resembles a good book. If the storyline is well laid out, believable (not in the perspective of currently reality, but of perhaps characters actions/reactions), and flows well, then the game is good.
Then, we throw in playability/complexity. If you're spending 20 hours just to figure out that you had to visit some village in the middle of nowhere and talk to the old man behind the in... playability gets a low grade, unless of course there's lots of hints to that objective beforehand.
Graphics and sound count for a lot nowadays, and especially cinematics. Sometimes when the plot or gameplay has dragged, trying to get to the next cinematic has pulled me through the boredom.
Treasures/gifts/secrets: Treasure boxes, GF's, summons, spells. All those things that RPG geeks say to friend "Hey, I've got the wings of wonder, you haven't found them yet?", or "Check out this spell of almighty flatuation, it does 3000 damage+poison effet".
Still, if the game's story sucks, then no manner of graphics or effects will make it worth playing. RPG's often act as "books/movies you can play", which is what makes them so immersive and oftimes addicting.
Infocom.
A few people here are posting lists of good RPG's. I thought I'd add my 'me too' to the topic. The best RPG in years HAS to be Fallout and Fallout II.
Both games were huge, both games had good scripting and voice acting. Both games had acceptable graphics. In neither was the player left confused and directionless. The worlds had more than enough items/armor/weapons to keep the collector and rule-lawer busy. Player types could be widely diverse thanks to perks and primary skills. Virtually all problems could be solved in many different ways, usually a violent and non-violent way to take care of the slayer AND the scientist players. Karma had an actual affect and completely changed the way you had to interact with NPC's. Evil players were treated as evil characters, something missing from virtually all RPG's.
Even the subquests weren't always all available to all player types. Higher perception characters would realize when someone was upset vs. higher intelligence characters finding obscure information in computer archives.
I've played each literally 6 or 7 times to completion and I STILL find new subquests. And I'm anal about looking for them.
I honestly think the best RPG you're going to find with current technology / rule systems would be a mix of the psudo-realtime combat system and art from BOS and the storyline and game style of the original Fallouts.
Aaron
AaronCameron.net
Yeah, I bet they'll really remember all that spaghetti confusion-driven time-traveling bonanza on half-hour long scroll and click random-encounter combat. And the next 10 sequels. The cutscenes are starting to become less and less worth it.
In the great CONS chain of life, you can either be the CAR or be in the CDR.
Shenmue
'nuff said.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
I'm sure I'm not the first to mention this, but everyone knows what the real key to making a good RPG is.
Dwarves.
Why do all these robots want to kill me?
Can I fit through that space?
I wonder what the next level will be like?
Why can I only shoot in eight directions?
Candidates for best RPG ever?
Chrono Trigger
FF6
Golden Sun
Dragon Quest (Warrior)
Secret of Mana
Any Zelda Game
Your list is comprised solely of Japanese RPGs. Not that there's anything wrong with that -- I think RPG players are pretty well split between the RPG sub-genres:
"Japanese" RPG: Very well-(and pre-)defined characters; strong, linear story; limits on free will. Examples are, well, those you listed above.
"Western" RPG: User-defined characters; more open-ended stories; more stat-crunching; more opportunities for non-linearity. Examples include any and all of the 9 Ultima games; Neverwinter Nights; the Fallout series; the Daggerfall series.
They're notably different styles of game design, and each sub-genre has its fans. I, personally, would like to see things move in the open-ended direction -- although not really an RPG, Grand Theft Auto 3 and Vice City both really did this right. If you could combine the depth of, say, Thief or Deus Ex with the non-linearity and persistence of GTA3, boy... you'd have one hell of a killer game.
Actually what you're talking about was in FF8 with Squall's "gunblade" (what's better than a sword?? a sword that goes boom!) The "actionifying" happened in the Final Fantasy series previous to this though in FF6 (FF3 in the states). The character Sabin had an attack called Blitz which required you to input various Street Figher-esque button sequences to pull off the moves.
How's my typing? Call 1-800-eta-shut
continuity is key. For example: I'm about 1/3 of the way through Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, and it's awsome. At one point in the game you get whisked away to an island to rescue a party member and have to find your way back - it takes about 20-30 days in game time to return.
:)
Problem is, once you get back a. all the quests you had going are kinda hard to pick up again (mostly because your journal gets wiped each chapter. I can't begin to describe how annoying that is) and b. everybody treats you like you haven't left.
It's a real downer. I almost want to start over and finish EVERYTHING in athkala before I head for that damn island.
Triv
Enough said, really.
Is my favorite type, personally. I could never get into turn-based-battle RPGs (FF series, etc.), no matter how good the story/graphics/battle engine, etc., and have always preferred the Zelda-style ones. (It might be worth noting here that the latest installment in the Zelda franchise has just become the fourth-ever game to receive four 10s (a perfect score) from Famitsu, with Ocarina of Time being one of the other three.) What's the consensus among those debating the minutae of turn-based RPGs: is Zelda a "true" RPG? Either way, that series is where I put my money and time.
RPGs always have been and always will rely upon the storytelling as the most important element in the game. RPGs, unlike many other genres, have the storylines that give you the gut wrenching hatred when one of your comrades is killed, and an overwhelming feeling of success after you have conquered an RPG after 50 hours of gameplay. Don't get me wrong, I love other genres, but the RPG represents the creative genius in the world of game developement.
It just isn't an RPG without a Hackmaster.
Must have Hackmaster+12
Death to the "Storyweavers"!
You either believe in rational thought or you don't
"I am surprised no one has made a real-time chess game. I'll even give you a good name for it: "Xtreme Chess"
Actually, its called Kung Fu Chess
Your beef is not with random battles; rather, you seem to not enjoy poorly done random battles. I'm sure everyone can agree that poorly done random battles do indeed suck. You may enjoy FF Mystic-Quest style fights, where you walk up to each monster, but the drawbacks in terms of character development are rather severe.
Random battles, when done properly, happen to allow you to go around from point A to point B without being very predictable in terms of fights, while allowing fun character leveling! If done well, you won't meet monsters too often or not often enough, and the groups of monsters will be varied.
How do random battles give flexibitily? Since each monster need not to placed on a map, you have less forshadowing (except for boss creatures) -- this allows more time spent on map design. You also don't you have the rigid growth structure of pre-planned battles; look at the Enix RPG Illusion of Gaia -- unless you miss secrets, you will always play through the game in exactly the same way because of the battle system. Every upgrade you get has a defined ceiling, which requires you play in the same way to get them all. Boring.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
That was one of my all time favorite games, and for just that reason. It always seemed there were three or four different ways any goal could be accomplished, and I felt that added a huge amount to the experience of building up your characters skills. You could never really know if increasing your characters ability to swim or such would be more or less important than getting them better with spells.
Everything will be taken away from you.
Stick with pen and paper...
Designers will never be able to satisfy your twisted fantasies. In a way they are only trying to satisfy their own by designing a game that appeals to themselves personally.
No computer program wants to be part of your "fellowship"
FFX disapointed me because the end boss was insanely easy. Much easier than some of the other enemies in the game.
It had button-bashing and "make rotations like crazy", but no button combos à la Sabin in FF6.
- Benad
That's right, I had forgotten about Sabin. His was especially annoying for some people I know since they are terrible at those rolling movements required to pull his bumrush move off.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
This lengthy comment is based on a few thoughts I¦ve accumulated about rpgs and computer rpgs over the years. It starts with superficial, yet lengthy account of my own experience with rpgs and computer rpgs
;), played several halfheartedly (non since the snes) and gotten pretty far in chronotrigger V but I¦m tempted to say that the descriptions above all fit most of those games. Granted V good versus evil, and magic is the recurring theme in rpgs V but it¦s the simplicity that got to me. The superficial dialog made me indifferent to the characters and events.
Bear with me f
When I was some 10-12 years old, I was introduced to the concept of rollplaying. I recall finding the idea of adventuring in a realm limited by ones (or the gms) imagination intriguing. At that time, I didn¦t even think about creating my own my own games. I would visit an older friend of mine who¦d be doing all the gm¦ing. He also introduced me to computer rpgs.
He introduced me to Bards tale, that I found a bit to complex at the time, as well as the commodore 64 version of gateway to Apshai (which was much easier for a kid at that age).
I also picked up those choose-your-own-path books, and was very intrigued by the concept. The first computer rpg to get a hold of me since Gateway was Dungeon Master: Chaos strikes back (which I now know was a sequel of sorts).
Later I discovered Bloodwych, and around this time I¦d started getting my own rpg material. Rules, books V playing a Swedish derivate (Drakar och Demoner [Dragons and demons ]) of dungeons & dragons. I had also gotten acquainted with Tolkiens works, and suddenly elves, orcs and other fantasy denizens had found a special place in my heart.
Eye of the beholder went beyond DM and Bloodwych with its graphical splendor, moody music, and immersive sound. It¦s certain that my continuing growing interest in the fantasy world; through books and classic rpgs made EOB mesmerizing. I could recognize the classes, monsters and settings V and the character generation was easy to comprehend, yet with an alluring complexity (the character customization in Bardstale had just been beyond me, when I was introduced to that, years earlier).
I think it was before I picked up the sequel that I got my own set of AD&D books (2nd edition). I found that the computer game and the classic rpg system complemented each other. The computer game could not replace the classic rpg, but it was an attractive pastime.
I¦d take interest in discovering monsters from the ad&d system, and by then it felt good to be able to cross reference combat in manuals V even though EOB2 could enjoyed entirely without experience with the AD&D rules (I had never played AD&D, when I got my hands on EOB1).
On a side note, I also picked up the German Ambermoon, living in Germany when it was released.
Its also worth noting that while playing EOB2 and a few other DM clones, I ended up playing hack clones as well, being especially pleased with nethack on the amiga. Once you learned the somewhat confusing commands, and saw beyond the ascii V it offered a complexity that I felt that no other computer rpg matched.
Diablo turned up V and ensnared me at first. It was, in a way, as many fans have noted, a simplified realtime hackclone. As with EOB, the overall mood established in the game made it engulfing. The story of a tainted church that had become a portal of evil, a lonely town threatened by dark powers, the music and the cgi sequences. Eventually the focus shifted onto character building. It was a question of cleansing level after level, scavenging for items and experience. The quest itself got lost in the turmoil.
It lacked the devious puzzles of the DM games, and the change in pace. In short, it was way too combat oriented.
After Diablo, it took a while before I looked into computer rpgs again. I was studying hard, when I heard of baldursgate, and I didn¦t dare to pick it up. It had all the alluring elements. The AD&D system, a huge world, flexible quests.
I think it was 1.5 years later when I purchased Baldursgate 1, the addon as well as Baldursgate 2. My bro and I decided to play the series through in coop. This was, without a doubt, one of the best computer purchases I had made. Beyond the dated graphics awaited weeks of fun. More races and classes than you could ask for, and a huge world waiting to be explored. The plot was terrific V and the dialog grand. Everything fitted like a glove. Despise the praise and hype V and the fact that the game was 1.5 years old when I picked it up V I wasn¦t disappointed. This series is, in my opinion, the best computer rpg released.
Afterwards, I was quick to pick up the fallout series, planescape torment and icewind dale
Console rpgs
Having grown up with the c64, the amiga 500 then a1200 and eventually pcs, I was never that big on consoles. Sure, I had played them at friends houses, and my bro and I eventually got our own gameboys (excellent for geekish traveling needs).
I got acquainted with Final fantasy on the gameboy (though it later turns out, that it was an entirely different game series, just marketed as FF in the states). The first of the games played a bit like Zelda. An action game with oversimplied rpg elements. Not too different from the gateway from aphsai I knew from the c64.
The second game was more like a kids version of bardstale. It resembles the FF games in the nes and snes, and clones thereof.
While I found both games enjoyable on the gameboy, they made me wonder about the definition roleplaying game used in such a context. Both games were completely linear, and featured very simple plots. I was well aware that design aspects and user base determined the limits here:
The small screen and the simple controls allowed for a limited dialog V and simple item manipulation. No lengthy descriptions to fuel the imagination; no strange smoking potion that was slightly cold to the touch, but just 5xcure in the inventory.
The plots, and I might be generalizing, all had to do with darklords wanting to rule, and a young lad who¦s forced into thwarting them. They take place in ¥legoish¦ worlds (no offense to the toy V but there¦s a tiling sensation to the console worlds), where mana is the balance that¦s usually messed with.
I know that I have only ever finished one FF (that¦s not really a FF game afterall
Then there¦s combat and character buildup. What the hell is up with 100000 points of damage?? When 540 hitpoints define an entity¦s wellbeing, something¦s well out of proportion. The whole tech mix itself also annoyed me a bit, but that¦s just me swearing by fantasy (not that dislike cyberpunk or the likes). Whats the point in wielding a shortsword when your robot friend¦s got a magnum or minigun?
Compare the combat here with that of the classic ad&d ports in the computer (secret of the silver blades, death knights of krynn, pools of radiance (the old one) V and you¦ll the strategy severely lacking.
I don¦t know if the new console rpgs have much more text than the old ones V I assume they¦ve gotten slightly more complex V but in the end, I assume that the user base is different. Kids want something that¦s easy to pick up, control and that doesn¦t require much imagination, dedication or memory. They want the settings rendered for them in an orgy of eyecandy V not through lengthy text or the voice of a narrator.
The console rpgs I have played were all linear. So were DM and its clones, but those games had the roaming going for them. DM and its successors didn¦t feature much (if any, in the early cases) dialog V but perhaps their perspective, and introduction caused something that the birds eyeview of a cheerful manga character couldn¦t. Perhaps I, myself, was young enough to enjoy the hack¦n slash at the time V but I am certain of one thing:
I have found no console rpg as intriguing as baldurs gate and its clones. To portray interesting events and characters, some text is required (whether read or heard)V and for us to speak of true rpg¦ing: or as close as you can get, without participating in a mp game (such a muds): you need freedom V and consequences of your actions. Actions that aren¦t all required to complete the game V and if possible: A dynamic ending
The Zelda games might very well be the gateway of apsais of today. They¦ll have their own species known to console gamers, and the tolkien and classic rpg denizens will be few or absent here. I realize that affinity plays a large part here.
FF and its followers are perhaps better suited for those that grew up more used to being fed worlds, rather than creating or imagining them while reading a book, or being told a story in words alone. Perhaps technology, our modern way of life¦s pacing and information consumption have left the younger generation with little patience for focusing on something for a longer time. Short and sweet might very well be the characteristics. Fast forwarding the narrative seems to be trend in modern games.
But as an aged gamer, I feel a bit left out in the cold. I want more depth in the computer rpgs, and freedom at the cost of lost simplicity.
And coop campaigns people V for those of us who dare not enter the realm of mmorpgs!
We still want to be told stories, but leave a little up to our own imagination V fuel it, don¦t confine it.
Daniel L
Compared to Grand Theft Auto, all RPG's suck. I guess you could say that GTA isn't really an RPG but a new genre, but nonetheless all RPG's bore me now.
The reason I play games is so that I can do things that I want to do in reality, but can't because a) they are immoral b) are illegal c) there are rammifications/risks associated that I don't want to deal with. For example, I want to run around and kill people, but that's immoral and illegal, and I don't want to take anyone's life in reality or deal with the consequences of that action. But running around and killing people is fun, in the fake world.
So, in an RPG the environment should be as real as possible and not use tricks to 'add to the game play' but still are fake. For example, animals in almost all games just appear out of now where or are spawned from some spawn thing. I want animals to come from the breading of two other animals, and to be hunted and eaten and the related things.
I want the characters to be where they are for a reason. For example, shops should only be open in the day, and when it is night, the shopkeeper should go have a beer or go see his girlfriend, and when he's tired he should walk back to his house and go to sleep. At night, when I go to a shop, I should find a locked door. And when I break in, I should find a shop keeper dashing for a weapon or sleeping. Not an empty bedroom. And when I see people on the street I should be seeing them because they are on their way somewhere, not because they are handing out the same mission over and over again.
And as far as missions go, they should be based on something and never repeated. Bar owner one asks you to kill the competition bar tender 'cause you look like the kind of person that would do it. He may repeat the mission to other people, but when the competitor is dead or something else happens, that mission should go away forever. A moving story spurred by real actions and human-like motivators. I mean, this can be pre-programmed but they should be based on an emotional need and picked out of a pool of possible solutions that fall in line with the NPC's character.
I always hear the excuse from coders that it's just not practical to code all this stuff in when it doesn't add to the game play. But it does affect the game play. The more transparent you mike the line between reality and game, the more fun I will have killing people or whatever it is I want to do. Things will start to appear that will be ultra cool that the programmers didn't even think of. For example, because animals like to drink, they will congragate around the water hole. Other patterns of reality will show themselves on accident as well that the player WILL recognize and will contribute to gameplay. (ie, the bar tenders daughter never goes out alone and is always escorted by a trusted guard, and there will be a frog plague because everyone killed off the snakes... )
This isn't the sig you are looking for... Carry on...
I am 2/3 of the way through SoA. Your journal does not get wiped - read the manual again :-) Click on the arrows or done quests to move around your journal. Email me if you have questions - ns_stables@hotmail.com or check out alt.games.baldurs-gate
Needs to be shoulder mountable and (ideally) under 10lbs.
Keep your packets off my GNU/Girlfriend!
blah blah blah
Gameplay over graphics.
blah blah blah
Graphics over gameplay.
blah blah blah
Square rules/sucks.
blah blah blah
Black Isle rules/sucks.
blah blah blah
Warren Spector rules.
"You cannot find out which view is the right one by science in the ordinary sense." - C.S. Lewis on Intelligent Design
Ye Gods, this article got posted??? Not only were the articles pointed to tedious reading, they weren't even touching on very interesting subjects. The Pink Floyd article was complete rubbish. They guy ripped the Pink Floyd name just to get people to read the article.
Is it that slow a news day to publish this? Not that the editor give a hoot about what we want to read. When is ChrisD going to publish an article about his Spongebob collection of stuffed toys???
Ah, why waste my breath and preach to the choir.
If I have only one hand, and that hand only has one finger, I should still be able to play the game.
With only one hand and only one finger, you'd be lucky if you could *install* the game, my friend.
(Karma sux - post AC)
The previous poster named Zelda as a good RPG. Zelda games have _loads_ of combat, but the combat is realtime and fully integrated into the game, not breaking up the flow; it's also simple. Once you've learned the spin attack and how to use a few key weapons (hookshot, bow, boomerang) you can cope with pretty much anything. Of course, it's an advantage that Nintendo _really_ know their stuff when it comes to designing games like this. However much they pay Miyamoto, it can't be enough...
Unfortunately, Nintendo broke this terribly when they made Super Mario RPG. They took the Mario characters and world and implemented a Final Fantasy game engine. Aargh! So Mario encounters some Koopas, and I have to go into a menu-driven turn-based combat mode to deal with them. This is MARIO. These are KOOPAS. I have a GAMEPAD in my HANDS. I know how to deal with these things, I've been playing Mario games ince 1988. Let me get on with it.
I've been playing Baldur's Gate 2 recently, and it's starting to piss me off; I turn another corner and have to squish some more feeble monsters. Not interested. Planescape: Torment looks interesting, though, in which your own character is immortal and can restore party members by magic anyway. Freedom to get on with the story, that's the key.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
but there's nothing cool about doing coke.
:)
Fuck the hell out of the naked women, yeah, just don't do coke. Bad news.
ok, carry on
One aspect I liked about Heroes of Might and Magic (I know, not really a RPG) was it had the option of letting you fight the battles or let the computer determine the winner and award losses accordingly. It would be nice in a RPG to allow you to turn on instant battles for creatures of a given number of levels under your level. The die-hards can play every battle while the story-line people can advance quicker.
Assuming you don't mind text-based RPing, DartMud sound like what you're looking for. In particular, stats and skills are only described, not given numbers. The system is completely skill-based - no levels or experience points. There are no classes, you can learn whatever combination of skills you like (not neccessarily easily, but it is possible). Combat is limb-based, very flexible and detailed (you can wield as many weapons as you have arm-like limbs). There is an extensive range of non-combat skills, too - food & farming activities, crafting (wood-working, metal-working, sewing, leather-working, etc), and so on. The world is certainly not static - there have been one-off quests run in the past (and probably will be in the future). There are a number of races that characters can choose, each with their own strengths and disadvantages. The magic system is worth mentioning too - each spell is a skill, there are over 100 spells released, but many can only be obtained from other players, and you'll need astounding powers of persuasion to do so. Role-playing is, of course, strongly emphasized. The creators keep their distance - apart from enforcing the rules (no cheating, no unattended botting, etc), they don't get involve in mortal affairs.
As for the world of Ferdachi itself, it is a completely original creation, as far as I know. There are extensive areas to explore, including an Underdark area which automatically extends itself as players explore it. They have a homepage .
David.
Ride a Chocobo
See some titties
No, Secret of Mana predates that, and is an ever better example. Shit, Ultima Underworld was 92, and was an actiony RPG.
Freedom to do all kinds of things in the world in which you are situated is what makes a great RPG. I don't like being led by the nose through some storyline where deviation from the plot means that you can't do anything worthwhile. That's why a good GM/DM managing the roleplay on the fly is better than any pre-written adventure or module, and it's why MMORPG's are more fun than games like Baldur's Gate.
to me a good rpg , analog or digital, is about good storytelling.
with a solid gm/programmer setting up the environment and the character's/pc's playing/acting in that environment.
the story unfolds.
i find whats missing in most rpgs is this ideal, that it is up to the group of players and prgrammer/GM's to tell the story.
technical issues aside, this is what is missing,IMO. the story does not unfold in the digital medium. the ending has been written already in most cases!! how can the story unfold?
The GM's job is to direct, not to stiffle and squash the players actions.
i think the same is true of digital RPGin too
There has been many the time in analog RPGin that a character has completely changed the course of the campaign/game because they do something so ingenious, stupid or whatever that changes the whole story.
This will be a long time coming in the digital vein, although its getting closer.
Still Id rather play a game of D&D with my friends anyday!!
back in the day we didnt have no old school
What do people think of the Site design at RPG Codex?
I never had a chance to play FF6/FF3 on a console, only through an emulator and I found that Sabin was -unplayable- because neither my keyboard nor my gamepad would let me do the diagonal moves required to use Sabin's special attacks.
At least with several of the other FF series you could set the special characters to "auto" and let them try an attack on their own. It made a nice compromise.
Is anyone still actively playing traditional RPGs around a table with dice? Maybe it would be benefitial to revive this kind of activity and at the same time look for ideas to apply in CRPGs from there (not that it hasn't been done). It might also slap your imagination around a bit, waking it up and helping in making CRPG experiences more authentic, often spoiled with irrelevant criticism to irrelevant detail. Or maybe I'm completely wrong. Just a thought. :-)
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Roleplaying. Something that very few games that are labelled 'RPG' have.
The sad fact is, most of these games are simple adventure games. A linear plot, enforced rules stating you can't say attempt to assassinate a monarch, etc.. Adventure.
Most of these games have a select few goals - get the level, equip neat looking gear, and kill the bad guy at the end.
Those goals are different than the one single goal of roleplaying - to exist. Roleplaying isn't about winning. It isn't about gear or money. It isn't about how many people you kill, or even if you die.
Roleplaying is about the story. It's about realizing the fact that you are a piece of shit, and that the world will continue without you. The entire point of the game is to decide what your character does with that time.
The story is an important part, that much is true.
However, most games that call themselves RPGs, aren't.
A story spoonfed to you is not roleplaying. A story alone is not important. It is the interaction that *your* character has with the world that is important, and it is that from which the real story comes.
If a character, not of my creation, is given two choices, it doesn't matter if I press A or B - it isn't roleplaying.
Not necessarily. Try this - looks like these guys are trying to simulate human players.
Hollywood loves dumb action films. Explosions and special effects don't need to be explained or localised.
In general, as game development has become more like movie production, games have become more like movies, i.e. stupid and flashy.
This doesn't mean that good games don't get developed, but they tend to be made -- like most good movies -- by independent producers on shoestring budgets OR by auteurs whose track records allow them the indulgence of the money people.
NeverWinter Nights -- flawed as it is -- could never have been made by people without a track record. There's a few million worth of content, etc., in that game, and that kind of money doesn't get handed over to a couple of overweight guys with a good idea.
Finally, high end graphics and real time game play create design issues that make putting in a lot of nice role-playing detail very difficult indeed. When, years ago, my friends and I were working on Prince of Destruction we omitted a lot of ideas because, having decided to make the game real time and animated, producing graphical representations of things increased the cost (in time) of implementing them.
When you have real time 3D graphics, doing stuff like having a character pull out a sword nicely might cost you two animator days... This means implementing alchemy (think of all the assets you'll need, all the debugging, etc.) is prohibitive.
If you want to allow decent levels of interaction, every time you add options you blow out the amount of voice dialog you'll need to script, edit, record, clean up, check, localise, etc.
So, Bioware goes from Fallout/Fallout2 -- probably the best computer RPGs I can think of -- to NeverWinter Nights: fabulous engine, great graphics, totally linear plot. (Of course their tools and engine let you write your own plots...)
why are we here? I figured it out, but I'm still a loser. Is this one of those ending with a twist?
Play Command HQ online
Shadowbane Out in February.
- This and all my posts are public domain. I am a Physicist. I am not your Physicist. This is not Physically advice
I saw a guy who had one hand with three fingers. He was able to find, light and smoke a cigarette while driving his van.
Slashdot trolls you!
Morrowind is the RPG to own all RPG's.
I had 2 kids come to my house bearing Kingdom Hearts for the PS/2. They saw this game.
By night's end they both owned X Boxes and the dust mites began feasting on poor Mickey Mouse.
Actually, this is answered in one of the articles. It seems, you just cant market an rpg game if you dont present it to the producers as ACTION/adventure/rpg.
Think (but not too much, it's a dull game) diablo.
If you've played rpg's lately too many of them have gotten where the graphics are good but there is no true game play. There is just hours of following the story with no challenges. That is what made games like zelda such a classic. It had a solid story line but the game play was challenging at times too.
If your not cheating your not trying. If your not trying your not winning and if your not winning why play?
nothing else to say
Err that was FFVIII. If I remember correctly IX had something similar as well, hard to say I wasn't all that impressed with those two. Action-fying rpg's isn't necessarily a bad thing, and you can't expect all new features to work or last. I don't feel that the sword extra damage thingie in VIII was a big deal, it was almost an easter egg rather than part of the combat system. But all "new" ideas suffer scrutiny. The active time battle system, when introduced in Chrono Trigger, wasn't universally loved. It worked, people liked it, and it added some urgency while still retaining the turn based nature of the game, so it has endured. Like I said, I don't feel that hitting R1 during combat for extra damage hurt anything, and I don't have a problem with extra little thigns to do in turn based combat, but I also didn't really think that that added anything to the game.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
One nice thing about Zelda is that it was marketed as an Adventure game more than an RPG. When you bought it you knew you were getting a game that would involve more action than some others. Also, the combat is intuitive and for the most part doesn't require incredible reflexes until you get to the N64 version of Zelda, which I hated. I was good at Zelda as a 9 year old with poor vision and poor reflexes. I should be equally good at the newest Zelda now that I'm 22 and have glasses and excellent reflexes, right? But the interface to the game was so broken because Nintendo was enamored with their bad 3D engine that I could barely function in the game world.
The original Zelda was close to being the perfect game, Simple interface that was completely intuitive, dynamic and interesting story that progresses clearly through the game, and it was jut plain enjoyable.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
was the "Auto" battle on Grandia 2. I left that thing on for every battle that wasn't a boss battle. Just choose a personality, and the computer will manage the battle for you. Great when you want to move ahead without micromanaging.
:) I hope Grandia Xtreme also has a neat system.
And Grandia 2 had one of the neatest battle systems ever
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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Story? All you do is collect Triforce pieces and lots of equipment, build up your life meter, and then go kill Ganon. The nearest you get to character interaction is 'PAY ME FOR THE DOOR REPAIR CHARGE'...
Zelda 2 gave you much more of a world you could believe in; there were towns of people here and there, separated by vast spaces of wilderness in which the ruined palaces of the ancient kingdom still stood... There's a real sense of a vanished golden age, of the terrible damage Ganon did before you defeated him. The destroyed town of Kasuto was downright tragic. And here and there you discover ancient marble pillars standing out in the desert, sometimes with treasure lying about at the base. 'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings...'
After that the plot goes into the past; I assume the King who returns at the end of Zelda 3 (on the SNES) is the same one who hid the Triforce Courage because he didn't trust his son, and who was responsible for the insanely tough guardians I had to beat in Zelda 2 ;-) It's a strange feeling, fighting for weeks to defeat a monster, recover the Golden Power and save the kingdom when you KNOW what's in store for the place. Whether I win or lose, Ganon will rise again and ruin Hyrule, and Kasuto will be devastated by monster raids.
I think Zelda 4 on the Gameboy was my favourite. The gameplay was similar to Zelda 1 and 3, but there was a lot more plot. I don't think I'll ever forget Marin... The ending is perhaps the most memorable I've ever seen in a game, though I don't want to give it away here. Took me ages to work out how to take down the final boss - the top-down interface makes you think in 2D, and so you don't realise you can jump his attacks with the Roc's Feather.
I've only played bits of Zelda 5 on N64 and 7 and 8 on GBC (Seasons and Ages) and none of 6 (Majora's Mask) so I don't fully know what's happened since. But GameCube Zelda looks wonderful and I _want_ it, NOW! :-)
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
I saw an interview with the creator of the original game wher he explained he had enough of making rpg's and wanted (or was obliged to by contract, i don't remember) to make one last, going out with a bang. Well it was. And about your question, as any brand or pr person can tell you... oh forget it.
I liked the story of Zelda 2, but not the sidescroller feel of the game. Yes, the story in Zelda wasn't incredibly deep, but it was interesting to me. I also spent many many hours playing the gameboy zelda (Did you discover missiles? Equip bomb+Bow and press both buttons at once!) and I'm planning on getting the GameCube Zelda pretty soon.
Hopefully it will be better than the n64 zelda.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
Well, for an obvious start: Sega's Phantasy Star Online. More than one player I would say. You can even play split screen on the Gamecube version.
;)
Less obvious, Arc the Lad Collection, by Working Designs. This is actually a feature I only discovered by looking at the credits to fan requests. The games where originally designed for one person, but Working Design made it possible to let the second psx controller to have control as well. In this way you can split up your party members during battle, and let each player control his or her own group! Well, the same can be achieved by passing the control umpteen times with any party based 1 player rpg, but anyway.
And now we also have a four player Link adventure as part of the re-release of Zelda: A Link to the Past in GBA! Hooray!
Oh now I think of it, in Ogre Tactics: The Knight of Lodis you can pitch your trained party with another GBA player. This was also possible in Kartia for PSX, but that games sucked big time. Now I think of it, this is also possible in Monster Arena in the Arc the Lad collection. That resulted to national tournements once that one came out in Japan.
Oh, and one final recall. Pokemon, anyone?
But all in all, I think it is a feauture that is under-exploited in console rpg's and when it's there it lets me combine my game-time with game-time with my wive. (Please fire away about better two player games you can play with your wive
Ocarina of Time, among those who are skilled at action games, is most often considered the pinnacle of the series, with Zelda 3 and Link's Awakening often tying for second place. (Majora doesn't rate because the storylne and damn timer are way too strange.) The lock-on targeting system and camera control are actually the best that have ever been designed for 3rd-person behind-the-back 3-D adventure games like this. Personally, I've never played a game that could be controlled better than Z64, and that includes StarFox Adventures and Metroid Prime (both considered to have excellent controls, built around the GCN controller perfectly). If you're having trouble moving around in Ocarina, you might want to try locking the camera more often, so that it is always behind your back.
Wind Waker is going to adopt the Ocarina/Majora controls, which was great news for me. Considering how well Ocarina of Time and the Ocarina remix on the Zelda pre-order disc play on the Gamecube controller, it should be great.
Anyways, just thought I'd bring those points up.
One button?? Ah, one button mouse....Mac user. Nice to see there are still some Mac gamers left out there. :)
The ATB(Active Time Battle) system was introduced to the FF world with Final Fantasy IV(in Japan) and Final Fantasy II(in the US). There was no option to turn it off like in later games. There was an option to adjust the speed.
The novelty of the Chrono Trigger battle system was not its active time setup, but the fact that it happened in place instead of warping you off to a fight screen. CT had those battle "hotspots" where you would be attacked every time you went there, rather than randomly fighting enemies. When you stepped on one, you formed your ranks, the enemies lined up, and you whooped on each other. This allowed for "techs" that used area-based or path-based attacks, since everyone was spatially oriented in the game world.
Mod up I stand corrected ;)
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
Zelda 2 was my first, so I didn't find it at all unusual... I think combat in Zelda 2 was far more intense than in any of the others until the N64. Top-down you can wander about with the sword fully charged and spin-attack just about anything. But going toe-to-toe with a blue bird-knight in the Great Palace - that's tough. And nothing has ever compared to the final fight against your shadow.
Did you discover missiles? Equip bomb+Bow and press both buttons at once!
Damn right I did. Nastiest red herring in history - I spent so long feeling _certain_ this was the way to beat the Nightmare Boss. But you can't equip arrows, bombs AND the roc's feather, and so I invariably got smashed. OK, it could have been done with really quick use of the menu, but that's just lame...
Incidentally, you've got me all nostalgic. I spent this afternoon slaving over a hot compiler trying out a variety of NES emulators so I could play Zelda 2 again... I think I might take on one of the challenges people have posted on the web. 'Complete the game in one sitting with no 1UP dolls' looks tough. Doable,though, as long as I'm allowed the extra lives given by advancing level beyond 8 - 8 - 8.
I once played Zelda 1 right through in one life just Because It Was There. Somewhere in the sixth dungeon my then roommate pulled out an air rifle and shot out both my computer's speakers.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
How many times have you played a game in which the overly painful clues and hints might lead you to take a more practical, logical or just emotionally desired approach to solving the problem, only to be restricted by a very artificial and "unnatural" limit. What you then end up doing throughout the game is applying only those solutions the programmers wish you to use. Gee, how fun!</sarcasm>
No, what you hit on is very important indeed. Like with a simulator, it is important to actually not limit the very immersion and interaction elements which include the challenges, problems, solutions and variations which would very well give a more realistic result set. Often what is taken is the "Scenario vs. Script" approach so that an unfavorable approach is not solved or integrated but is treated like a bug and removed. A bug in a program would not be a particular image that caused a memory leak but would be the actual error inside the code that led to the memory leak. Yet this coverup of the symptom instead of solving the problem (or curing the disease if you will) is the normal approach that development/producing organizations take.
The argument of "Great Quality, cheap cost and quick development time... pick one" is valid except what is defined as "quality" is the problem here. The very things that are hard coded, cut out, canned, whatever... those are the very limits that end up both making the game less immersive and making it harder for the designers and programmers. What the developers should actually do is embrace that unpredictability and openness as part of the gaming experience. That will require of course that the entire engine (static) and object/event/action (dynamic) elements of the system be designed to work as simple, working components instead of more complex components. An analogy would be to look at an assembly line of an automobile factory where the parts while designed to work for that specific vehicle are going to be, for the most part, minor variants upon a stock collection of parts using standard "interfaces." What you won't get normally is a collection of large complex parts that do everything. Sort of like if humans were made up of only about 5 very large cells instead of the billions it is made up of that work in synergy.
Here is my stock example... it may or may not be a good one, but work with me :)
In a persistent RPG world (MMORPG) let us assume we have a situation where raw materials are required along with skill to create various objects for use in the game, in this case shields and other armor. However, mining is tough and requires a boat load of other resources and labor to make usable raw materials (ingots) for the actual end product. Like any other resource, this will be in demand by many who are unscrupulous as well as our little mining friends might be seen as convenient slave labor by various monster races (or food for that matter). Yet why would we then allow the placement of permanent, invulnerable salesmen, structures, equipment, etc? Lets say that a tribe of Orcs decides to raid the growing mining encampment or even better to raid the supply wagons bringing in supplies or exporting the ore or ingots. Wouldn't it then make sense to place the smithies there? Well only if you have an ample supply of water around. Oh and don't forget the food for the people, as well as guards for the caravans of exports. These people might want a place to live and drink so that would be a possibility to look into. However, this is where it gets crappy, IMNSHO. The result in many games is a system where there are no incentives (quests, rewards, adventure, etc) to be had by many players except the craftsmen and the ones raiding them. Yet ironically you might have within the very same game a canned quest or two that deals with "saving the local miners from the hoard" (of which the mining camp is canned and static as well). So if a thousand players all partake in these quests they will NEVER notice a change. They have no impact on the world. Personally I would like to see about raiding the town and taking it over. That would fill my coffers to the max and I get to fill my evil desires to control others (what can I say, I guess I am a marxist at heart).
Any ability to actually "Role Play" the parts of villian, mayor, craftsman, hero or guard are only allowed if the developers implemented a crude and hard coded "class system" that with such you can kiss any chances of creativity goodbye. I could go into how this effects the actual crafted items, the economy, warfare, guilding systems, tactics and overall strategy but it is really much the same.
The biggest issue here is about waying what the game is about. Personally, I am tired of seeing "pretty hacks" out there and not engineered systems. That means you need to PLAN and ARCHITECT the system not just throw some crap together and hope to make some money. However the financial reality is that as it stands now... that tactic works, and works well! Just look at the money side of the game industry and how things break down and you will see this. This is because there is no real competition. With persistent worlds, we are very slowly seeing some pop up that offer different ways to play. However, until you have a situation in which one can say confidently, "I am making this game, with this goal and these parameters" instead of the "Lets make something with superficial elements of everything so that we can attract as much market share as possible" you will have this crap. However that is a chicken and egg issue as well, so lets just be proactive and stick to our niches and make them well. Stop trying to be everything, or at least applying all the colors of the rainbow of "market appeal" like a poor paint job to the game systems. Start engineering these things with the long term in mind. After the inevitable saturation occurs in the MMORPG arena, then it will be easier to have niche based games I believe.
Basically, lets approach these things more as an environment or simulation and build the gaming elements on top of that. (this is analogous to movies who's plot is an afterthought after the special effects and other superficial makeup is applied)
I seek not only to follow in the footsteps of the men of old, I seek the things they sought.
Mind you, that I am not saying that either of you are right or wrong but that you seem to be having semantic problems. When the word "reality" is used in this context it is tuned to the "suspension of disbelief" that goes along with fiction. For example, if a movie about futuristic space travel was being viewed then space craft, life on other planets and fantastic technology would be acceptable. However if this is supposed to be our future (humans) and unless it is part of the actual fictional historical chain of events, then it would not be acceptable to have the human characters act in ways that is not human (as a whole group). Lust, ambition, greed, hate, love, desire, ego and all other elements of humanity could be controlled, like through discipline and training but those instinctual elements would still be there. So a movie that talks about humanity "moving on" so that it seems to be genetics that changed and not social discipline, is pretty stupid.
Here in the context of this persons post, we are not talking about "reality" as far as having cars, computers, our history or other "real" elements of the real world. The suspension of disbelief for dragons, magic and elves in a classical fantasy setting is one thing... but unless you have really created a world where physics operates differently (which would be interesting) then those things are variations within our very same physical reality. Sure the dragon and its natural fire breath is fantastic, but if it is explained that the dragon flies by physical air lift (and not some magical levitation) then it would be silly to allow a dragon to fly in a raging volcano. Sure he may have magical fire resistance... but what about the wind factors of flight? That is just one example, so try not to pick it apart too much, please! LOL
One other thing... there are many who say that Role Playing Game means that you play a role and that is the beginning and end of their definition. That definition allows Super Mario Brothers, Pac Man and Space Invaders to be defined as RPG's. Then you have the confusion of setting and genre. The classic example of this is Diablo, in which was obviously an action game with adventure elements set within a fantasy world. While a great game, it was not a RPG anymore than a fantastic blow job is really an orange armadillo. There are your apples and oranges!
Try not to fall into this pit of defending that which does not need defending. If you like a game that others say lacks immersive elements and actual role playing... then good for you, we all have different opinions and tastes. However if you are getting rather defensive based on what people want then you really should seek counseling because this will always be a cruel world to you
This is much akin to the situation where you have this static list of "spells" for wizards and yet your "level 30 wizard" doesn't ever seem to have access to the spells and magical capability that the wizards (evil and good) have in cutscenes. Funny, if a lower level "student" wizard teleports directly to my position with potions and a note that he will bring your best robes, then I expect myself to be able to do exactly the same thing at the very least. And that does not mean that I get some cheesy "can randomly teleport on screen" or "can teleport within line of sight (of the screen)"
I seek not only to follow in the footsteps of the men of old, I seek the things they sought.
You are transported to a room where you are faced by a wizard who
points to you and says, "Them's fighting words!" You immediately get
attacked by all sorts of denizens of the museum: there is a cobra
chewing on your leg, a troglodyte is bashing your brains out with a
gold nugget, a crocodile is removing large chunks of flesh from you, a
rhinoceros is goring you with his horn, a sabre-tooth cat is busy
trying to disembowel you, you are being trampled by a large mammoth, a
vampire is sucking you dry, a Tyranosaurus Rex is sinking his six inch
long fangs into various parts of your anatomy, a large bear is
dismembering your body, a gargoyle is bouncing up and down on your
head, a burly troll is tearing you limb from limb, several dire wolves
are making mince meat out of your torso, and the wizard is about to
transport you to the corner of Westwood and Broxton. Oh dear, you seem
to have gotten yourself killed, as well.
You scored 0 out of 250 possible points.
That gives you a ranking of junior beginning adventurer.
To achieve the next higher rating, you need to score 32 more points.
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