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Kroger Testing Fingerprint Payment System
MachineShedFred writes "CNN is reporting that The Kroger Company is testing the use of fingerprinting as means for payment at grocery stores. The article says that it has been well received by both college students and seniors. I, for one would love to see this rolled out to all of Kroger's stores, which include Fred Meyer, Ralph's, QFC, Fry's Marketplace (not the electronics stores), and others; however I'm sure some /.-ers will have privacy concerns as well as law enforcement cooperation issues..."
What about how trivial it is to fake a fingerprint? I'd think that would be a pretty big concern.
I've been called a "Fucking Dick" by better people than you.
This isn't a good thing, and is a step away from National ID Cards stamped with our ID numbers.
Dude, where's my packet?
no print, tho.
fp?
First Freakin Post -- whoda thunk it
Anyone here see the movie Gone in 60 seconds? They had these rubber fingerprints made that went over their own fingers. Not sure if this is possible or not, but this would definitely make me not want to give Kroger's my info..
Oh great we won't even need the apocalyptic mark of the beast to be tracked, they'll just need our fingerprints.
________________________________________ History Must Not Fall Into The Wrong Hands ___________________________________
for a CSI episode based on this :D
------- The last Sig. got fired.
In all seriousness, this technology won't be accessible to some, such as disabled people and burn victims.
I'll take "Things that don't happen for $1000 Alex"
Along with the rest of TV
This does sound ripe for all sorts of shady things.
I'm beginning to wonder if I'll live to see the day when using actual cash is against the law.
college kids + midnight kroger trips + fingerprinting = easier drug busts!
Mike
Now personal privacy concerns will include painting all my door handles with matte paint.
You cut or burn your fingers.
It's well hashed out how easy it to to fool fingerprinting biometrics, so let's not have at that again. It's a neat concept, but flawed system. To easy to fool and not bulletproof enough to allow for every day accidents that happen in the kitchen (heaven help me if i cut my finger cutting veggies AND burn it on the stove..)
I just got an HP iPaq 5450 with biometric fingerprint reader. I thought the finger print security feature was pretty sweet until I let my brother try it. After 4 finger swipes, it let him through thinking it was me.
I doubt Kroger will use the same technology, but still cause for concern. Is fingerprint scanning technology really ready for mainstream use?
And how much longer will it be before the Kroger will check my fingerprint, see that I was arrested years ago for demonstrating a political debate, and refuse to sell me eggs, tomatoes, or anything else that makes a mess when thrown at a candidate.
Sounds pretty good. It'd certainly move people through the lines faster.
Now, if they'd just do away with those little plastic bags.
Anyone with privacy concerns should use cash.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
How long until Jello fakes out the system and causes it to be scrubbed?
Now someone will steal my thumb instead of my wallet.
_______
2B1ASK1
This was first being tested in Texas earlier this year. They found that it was way too easy to fake a fingerprint. There is also a grocery store in the Seattle area that was trying this tech, and if I remember correctly has decided to bail on it because of the ease of fraud. BIZKeT Mmmm... First post
So, this is really nothing new, but it looks like this may be one of the larger rollouts of such technology. Really no different (from a practical standpoint) than things like automatic toll booths or Mobil's Speedpass method of buying gas, although fingerprints would be inherently more secure. If we had Kroger stores around here, I'd be willing to sign up, but I don't think they have a presence in Nebraska, at least not in the Lincoln area.
Slashdotters should be proud of the fact that they are getting some (unless it's for gay sex, let them burn in hell with the HIV)
I'd love to see it too...a little gelatin and I've got free groceries! =)
So, now when my fingerprint is on their file they can check every product i touched as i thought about purchasing it.
What I really can't wait for, is when someone steals my fingerprint and starts charging their purchases to me. Cause we all know how easy it is to get a new fingerprint...
Bill 'em, bag 'em, book 'em.
however I'm sure some /.-ers will have privacy concerns as well as law enforcement cooperation issues
SOME! Shit I already have a problem with the current system. Every time I get asked if I have one of their cards for "saving", I just say "Sorry, I don't join cults"!
In Colorado at King Soopers (a Kroger store) we already have self checkout lines. I don't really see how this is going to be that much faster over being able to scan your groceries, swipe a credit card (or pay in cash) and be on your way. It seems like the major time constraint is scanning the groceries not the payment process.
that there are no Kroger stores in my area. Chainmail gauntlets would have made the perfect match with my tinfoil hat.
I once shot a man in Reno 'cause they cancelled Firefly.
I see nothing wrong with using finger prints to pay. We already trust Credit Card and/or ATM Cards at these places so why not your thumb? Just imagine calling to report your thumb lost or stolen. I don't think it would go unnoticed for very long like a credit card would.
-- Powered By Linux
It can even be automated, if you really want to, with bill and coin accepters.
I wonder at what point all this information becomes wastful. You just know that because this information can be tracked, it will. But imagine if we suddenly switched back to an all-cash system. There would be so much less data to store, transmit, transform, mess up, validate, etc. There's a certain economy in that, isn't there?
Of course, I lied about all of my information. They might begin wondering why some kid in the dorms is buying all that beer!
Berto
Lets not overlook the health issues. A whole population filing through touching the same surface again and again... can you say 'spreading germs as fast as the plague'?
Will your 'print' also act as your Kroger Plus card (their loyalty program) as well? I know that a lot of you won't even fill out those loyalty card applications, or swap around with your friends. Bring in the finger print technology though (shiny technology), and you're all for that.
I've seen some responses that talked about how easy it would be to fake a finger print. These people must not have read the article. A Drivers license and a finger print must be provided to make a payment.
Yes he did! In his book 'Secrets and Lies'
He pointed out that if it was compromised, they'd have to issue you a new thumb....
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
I imagine they will have alternate forms of payment, to prevent themselves from being hit with an "Americans with Disabilities Act" lawsuit. People without arms or hands would be rightly able to sue the grocery store. I don't see credit card readers or checks being refused in the future.
Yet another slashdot-sophisticant checking in here. I sure am glad that I have found a place on the Internet to have intellectual conversations about the "stuff that matters" and still work in the phrase "pot pie in your eye bitch" somewhere.
The folks at the Kroger closest to where I live are very unfriendly and frequently downright nasty. I hate to think what the work environment must be like for everybody there to want to lash out at anybody who comes into the store... as a result, usually my wife and I drive a bit further to go to a different store.
But, if given the option of using my finger to pay, I might go back to the mean Kroger, if I had the option of choosing which finger I got to stick out at them when paying....
-Rob
Even worse, fingerprints are NOT unique. Contrary to the old claim, people do in fact live who have identical marks. And they aren't related. Also, these machines have been shown to be easily fooled with some salt water and mucus. Worse yet, the next time you get mugged they'll chop off your finger. At least they won't be taking your eyeball(s) (c.f., Minority Report).
At least with the paper bags, you could make masks, cool cookies, and other crap with them.
Now I have to pay good money for trash bags to line cribs. Pain in my ass.
I and my wife, do not sign electronic tablets - your signatares are the last line of defense from fraud.
We do not use Mobil's / Mc Donald's speed pass.
We use a debit cards attached to an account different from our main account - to protect against on-line fraud.
Our local transit system tracks you by smart card use. So we do not use these.
We will not fly anymore because of the tracking and security there. (anyone wantto hand out free chocolates to stop the scanners?)
Our free country is becoming Russia of old, maybe even Germany? So who really won those last wars?
Use cash. That will keep the lines moving!
Keep in mind, you DO have 10 fingers (well, 8 and 2 thumbs). You would need to have all 10 cut/burned in order to mess this up, and also, fingerprints can still be accurate with cuts and nicks on your fingers. Criminals have burnt their fingers in acid, to avoid being caught, and still they're found due to patterns that exist on the finger. One little cut, or even ten, would not affect it by much.
Defender of Microsoft and Communism!!!
if you want to spend more of their money, you have to do it again. If you have their finger (why bother making a fake one, just cut theirs off, or does it detect heat, too?) you can keep going back and using it over and over, with no repeat effort.
It's easy to stand out when the general level of competence is so low.
The hell if I will support an automated money sucking store that is too greedy to even pay a dang cashier...
No, im not bagging my own groceries! Its better to pay people to work even if the job is simple. Far better than to pay taxes to support these same people on welfare...
Good ole Clinton and Engler (Governor) kicked so many off welfare even as corporations sought to fire even those they currently employed.
All the while the politicians continue to insist Greed is good for capatalism. (contrary to Christianity)
Safeway already has this. It's called a safeway club card. Other stores have club cards too. Instead of giving out identification about yourself that is on your body (fingerprint or retena etc.) you give out other information. I would rather swipe a card than swipe my fingerprint. Of course my phone number that I gave them might end up in a phone bank's database (I don't know their privacy policy)
check out the best blog ever:
http://oehlberg.com
Reason being is that fingerprints are so fine and so hard to manipulate that, for exmple the latex glove they used in GI60sec the oils in your fingers would wear through the gloves enough so that your own prints would probably show through. There are various other attempts made in the past by people trying, and failing, to mimic other peoples fingerprints, all of them failed due to one reason or another (perceptable changes in the prints due to the small nature of them is a big factor).
"The saddest words of mice and men, are not those which were, but should have been."
With stories like these, it starts to become obvious how much the government is holding up progress in personal security. People are often scared to give info like finger print to Id people because they are either A: scared of companies abusing the info (which can be solved by contracts) or B: scared of the government looking for info which could accidently incriminate them(which can be solved by limited the scope of government). Secuirty wise they also need to ask for a pin so that a print can not be faked and be a safeguard against errors in the system.
They associate fingerprints with all other personal information.
This information can be given to anyone including law enforcement. Does law enforcement have EVERYONE'S fingerprints on file? Now they do!
---
IMHO, of course.
May the SOURCE be with you.
I'd rather pay with my implanted microchip,
see www.infowars.com for more interesting opportunities for invasion of privacy....
They had an episode where a horror latex costume designer made a copy of his arm/hand and sold a few hundred of them. People were killed and finger prints were left all over the scene with the fake rubber arms/hands .. But as it turned out, it was the guy who made the arms/hands in the first place.. So... But yeah, they've already done something like it .. sorta
You know what I tell them? "No fucking way, you are NOT the FBI, you do NOT get my fingerprint. If you don't like it, I'll take my checking account, savings account, IRA and mutual fund account elsewhere."
You know what they say? "We're sorry sir, here's the money you are requesting."
Only one place (that I am aware of) in the world has my fingerprints on file, the FBI, and there's damn good reason they have them.
A bank? A grocery store? KMA.
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
I've never tried to pay my grocery bill with a credit card reader. They usually already have at least 1 for each register. (Realizing that wasn't what you meant, I will move on...) There are already places that do not accept checks or credit.
It's easy to stand out when the general level of competence is so low.
For example, if they REQUIRE that you use your right thumb for scanning, and this digit happened to get blown off years ago in a freak fireworks accident, are you refused the ability to pay at that store?
---
IMHO, of course.
May the SOURCE be with you.
The store fingerprints you! Or is that in the USA now?
Customers can register for the voluntary program by presenting a drivers license, an index finger and a method of payment -- either credit card, debit card or electronic check
The concern I have is whether random company X will be smart enough to protect payment methods data and fingerprint data, both (most likely) linked to personal info.
A relative worked in a co for a few years back that implemented the software to get supermarkets to accept CCs. The implementations always prevented the merchant from keeping/tracking the payment info. I think this intentional (data anyone?) on the part of the CC companies -- and it's why supermarkets use the 'bonus cards' 'rebate cards' etc. instead of just tracking your purchases with which CC you use. The supermarkets typically don't keep the cc numbers/ name etc. after purchase is complete (I think).
Regardless -- Under this new system, KROGER has to use/implement some IT system that tracks all the users payment methods and prints. While Kroger may do this fine, the assumption is that any company that wants to implement this kind of system, has to either implement or access a (possibly centralized) repository of fingerprint payment method mapping DB, with personal data. This is an enormous hacking target. I work under that assumption that anything that people access can be hacked, and therefore people should alway weigh the benefit of putting datasources together that create a risk for being stolen.
While that arguement does not really apply for one company, as more and more companies start to do this, the question becomes will the systems be secore enough to justify the benefits and costs?
but no more than I already have about those electronic signature tablets currently in use at a growing number of retailers. Still, I'm sure the security and auditing procedures to maintain their electonic copy of my personal moniker are excellent.
As if swiping a credit card and pinning your ID in was too hard, most local grocery stores out here (MO) have begun rolling out automated checkout lanes, even quicker, and most of those also have one of those speedpass style devices where you just wave it and go. Which seems to me like a hell of alot better method than fingerprints!!!!
/.'ers will have problems with this" um, yeah, duh, if its a stupid retarded idea which doesn't save you any real time but risks your identity and privacy, yeah I would assume most people here would have a problem with it.
Whats most shocking to me is the apparently overwhelming eagerness of the poster to see this wide spread....what the hell is wrong with you? combine this with something like TIA and then, you can't even buy cereal without the government being able to know. What about advertisers? A 100% accurate method of tracing INDIVIDUAL purchases, I can lend my roomate my CC, or my g/f or a family member to go to the store but I cannot lend themmy fingerprints, so they KNOW it's me, they absolutely KNOW I purchased item x, I purchase it x amount of times, etc. etc. HORRIBLE idea, through and through, and I love the tone of "I know some
"The saddest words of mice and men, are not those which were, but should have been."
As previously reported on /., this has been tested here in Texas for several months. Despite Kroger's PR, it does not seem to have been well-received in this town, which is about 40% college students. The little terminals don't seem to be getting a lot of use here. They're at every register in the 3 Krogers here, but I have yet to see anyone actually use their finger.
When they first started doing this, Kroger requested fingerprints for checks and credit card purchases. It wasn't manditory, as I was able to refuse and still purchase. Apparently, I was not alone in this - I saw a very pointed letter that was posted on a register that threatened a boycott. Soon, they backed down and stopped even asking.
I have to agree that this attempt is another in a series of steps in trying to get us to a national identity/credit card. I can only hope we think about it seriously. As others have pointed out, it's very hard to get a new set of fingerprints issued. I have to think that the odds of someone being able to hack a database and screw up my records are better than me getting new fingerprints.
People that work with concrete ALOT would have trouble with this scheme if only because the mud takes your fingerprints off your fingers after a period of time of working with this mildly acidic building material.
A fellow mentioned the look he got when he goes in to buy rubbers.
Like the evil eye he feels like he gets, what's going to happen if you don't want to do this? Most average joes will like the idea, be reminded of Back To The Future 2 and sign right up. But people who are worried about privacy, failure rate, and law enforcment entanglements could automatically be up for suspicious looks if they *don't* fork over a thumb (or any other finger).
Also, since people have been talking about how easy it is to fool a fingerprint biometric scanner - how does this compare to retinal scanning and what are the problems behind *that* method? Visions of the mall scene in Minority Report come to mind.
I for one would not trust this system with my credit card or atm card. The system can be quite easily fooled with some super-glue, a pcb board, and gelatin.
Bruce Schneier wrote an article about the process and which also has link to the presention given by the Japanese professor who came up with and tested the process.
- by placing a plastic bag filled with warm water on the sensor (the warmth and moisture activates the scanner, the sweat and grease left from the last finger is interpreted again)
- by taking a finger print in plaster and using it as a mold for a gelatine fingerprint
- (more methods)...
I think there was a german article quite a while ago in c't.While these scanners may be quite secure when their use is monitored by a cashier, I would not want to don my fingerprints to the system if it's unmonitored. Besides, to what extent can the system distinguish similar fingerprints? If the whole US signed up for the program, how many close matches would be there?
where's all that Karma?
That's right. Most stores, you don't even need the actual card. You just key in your phone number. So setup a card with someone's phone number (it doesn't even need to be a valid number), and give it out to all your friends. The more it is used, the more you get savings, and if you give it out to enough people, the demographics become to skewed to be of any use.
*shrug* It's what me and my family do, and we don't seem to have any problems with using it.
Just a thought, really.
Come cold and flu season you will have hundreds, if not thousands of people slapping their hands in the same place every day- a haven for germs to pass along from person to person.
If it's all the same to you, i'll pass.
There are two basic schemes for doing the comparisons. They are the minutiae and correlation methods.
- The minutiae-based technique requires a high-quality image. It finds and makes a relative map of points of interest, then does map comparisons. Basically, this will only look at the ends of ridges.
- The correlation-based technique uses a more global metric, but is then sensitive to image placement and translation. This technique will take into account details such as ridge count and distribution.
There are also some classifiers used to group fingerprints and prune database searches. Some relevant techniques are GCS (growing cell structure) neural networks, K-nearest neighbor, hard/soft margin SVMs (support vector machine).Disclaimer: I don't know anything about this field and have never worked in it. I just did some quick Google-whacking. I have done a little AI stuff, but not for this purpose.
Down with Saudi Arabia!!!
We're one step closer to The Mark of The Beast technology.
Will we soon see signs in store windows that read: "Fingers Only?"
"I'm sure some /.-ers will have privacy concerns"
Paying by fingerprint is far more private than handing over a check with my bank account, address, phone number, and in some states my social security number on it. It also beats generating credit card receipts containing my account number, which can still be used online.
"As well as law enforcement cooperation issues..."
If law enforcement is tracking you down, they have better ways than working with a retailer's fingerprint database. This is a case where the only people who need to worry really ARE the criminals, who could just pay with cash anyway.
Such a system relies on two major assumptions:
The problems with such a system:
DNA just wants to be free...
When I got a new gf, it was all like, "Hey, aren't you forgetting something? All you've got is condoms, man."
Fingerprinting systems pay YOU!
"Sorry, I have no fingers. Do you mind if I provide you with a semen sample instead? Nahh, that's ok... Keep the change."
OK, so how are people with no arms supposed to use this?
I currently work for one of the largest grocery chains in the US. We're trying all different kinds of things -- ie automated checkout's, online grocery stores, pda based ordering in the deli, super carts which tell you when your passing a good deal, and other things. We've had wireless access points in our stores for years. All of the guns the stores order with are wireless. Some stores have more Cisco equipment in them than a small ISP does. And the great thing about grocery chains is they don't go bankrupt like so many dotcoms have. It's like McDonald's disapearing, it's not going to happen.
With those cards you get from them, they take the money from your social security funds. They are fradulant scumbags, and I will not use any service from them, WalMart, etc. Next thing you know, we will have to scan our thumbprint to activate windows!
Once again, an excellent technology that has great potential. However, someone will abuse it. Be it criminals that are faking your print, gov't spooks, or even *gasp* companies.
It sucks that people can't just be honest.
Personally, I think I'll stick to cash when making purchases I don't want others to know about. And I'll wait for a number of years on the fingerprinting... see what problems might arise.
-Derick
"there is nothing you will ever do or say that will make voluntarily allow you to search my car."
"there is nothing you will ever do or say that will make voluntarily allow you to take my fingerprint."
"there is nothing you will ever do or say that will make voluntarily allow you to violate my rights granted under the US Constitution."
{{ see http://www.billofrightsinstitute.org/ }}
people are asleep, and it makes them most uncomfortable to shake them a bit towards a wakeful understanding of the issues.
Why do I need to sign the credit card receipt at restaurants, grocery stores, etc., but don't need to sign it at gas stations? Gee, Vern, someone could steal my Exxon SpeedPass and gas up New Jersey. (insert NJ gas joke here). How many other "inconsistencies" are there? Just curious. :})||
Ok, yes I'm replying to my own message. Because for some reason a bunch of you think I actually believe that becoming a member of a grocery store and getting a card for coupons is actaully joining an occult.
My post was a joke! Yes I have actually said this to cashiers and they laugh, because its funny. You should laugh to. Don't be a robot.
Rev 13:16-18
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.
Getting a Drivers License in Georgia requires you to provide your finger prints. I am wary of this and still expect my conformity to come back and haunt me. Seems that the DMV is just a way to get more finger prints to compare against in crimes.
I've watched enough 'Law and Order' as well as 'Forensic files' , 'The New Detectives' and others. Seems to me that just a FEW hits on your fingerprint is enough to convince people that it was really yours. Until I commit a crime, I don't want the state having my Fingerprint. Much less a grocery store.
This is something, along with the 'bonus cards' that I hope to never give in to. I do believe that these finger ID systems will just be another way to track people and their movements. I mean if Hardcore right wingers want to talk about 'the mark of the beast' and such in relation to people being BarCoded, how are they going to react when they hear that EVERYONE HAS A SERIAL NUMBER ENCODED INTO THEIR FINGER PRINT!!??!?!
This is truely a step towards total population control.
a story from April 2002 showing a Seattle area Thriftway inplementing a similar system
. shtml
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/68217_thumb27
fake and use copies of your own fingerprints
yourself? Or would it simply violate the
DMCA?
Kroger tries to pilfer enough personal information via their Kroger Kard (tm) as it is.
These cards are used to pilfer personal spending habits. What the consumer (AKA a person) gets in return is a discount on an item that was probably marked up anyway. Randalls has also implemented this scheme. What all of this means is that people willingly whore their privacy for a small discount on overpriced goods.
The whole point of this is that retailers want to be able to amass a large database of consumer spending habits, and sell these to the largest bidder. The days of suckering people into a store with double coupon days are rapidly becoming a relic of the past.
Kroger et al. can stick this fascist crap up their collective corporate asses.
I will shop at HEB instead.
Besides I hope they do try this, I have a feeling even the most clueless drooling consumeroid will have reservations about using this system. Besides, they will probably lose money on this as most places I have heard about using this type of technology always abandon it, as it doesn't work worth a damn, and requires multiple scan attempts to read a fingerprint correctly.
('cause I'm not), so I have a reasonably good chance to keep my fingers.
Sigged!
explicit instructions on how to fake such a system are here:
/ present/s5p4.pdf
http://www.itu.int/itudoc/itu-t/workshop/security
going AC because I'm sure some gevernment asshole will consider this a terrorist threat.
...to be used as payment in their stores. Basically your card gets hooked up to your savings or checking account, and they basically get their money via an Electronic Funds Transfer. Here's the info on the Vons site: http://www.vons.com/smartcheck.asp. Actually Vons has been doing this for quite a while, but they are relaunching the service.
"But you've already got a DVD. It lasts forever....In the digital world, we don't need back-ups..."
-- Jack Valenti
It's also about selling your sould to the people. They want your drivers license, fingerprint, and a payment method (probably credit card). Your grocery store should not need all these things. And my point was that Safeway already tries to collect information about it's customers with it's club card. The information just happens to be less sensitive, and implemented better using a card instead of your fingerprint.
check out the best blog ever:
http://oehlberg.com
...this attempt is another in a series of steps in trying to get us to a national identity card...
It's called a passport.
The obligatory:
5: ?
6: Profit!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry, I had to...
I am getting there myself.
It's just getting scarier every day:
1) Department of Fatherland (oops Homeland) Defense formed.
2) National database built to pretty much track everything we do.
3) Mainstream companies building biometric databases.
Where is this all leading?
Fools! Kroger's is doing this for Total Information Awareness
Be Patriotic: Impeach The Cheney Rumsfeld Administration!
Cheers,
W00t
As funny as that is.. referring to the mark of the beast as a chip is simply a technophobic misinterpretation of the Bible.
Hint: hand and forhead reference is a reference to the original giving of the law of Moses.
The obligatory:
5: ?
6: Profit!
Sorry, I had to...
Or a new PIN for your account with them...
Simple common sense solution, eh?
Sorry if I was confusing. I used the term co-op purely in the sense of "lots of people in a common goal", not that I thought they should start using these kinda cards at co-op grocerey stores.
The obligatory:
5: ?
6: Profit!!!!
Sorry, I had to...
I posted this yesterday and they didn't take it. Now they take it from this other punks. Insensitive clods.
It's already being used in West Seattle. The problem is, you can buy what the store clones believe is perfectly good cheese when in reality it's 3 months over it's sales date and a health hazard.
With that kind of brillance, I'd never trust them, with anything.
That was from a Dark Angel episode, where she did essentially the same thing.
This is a link to the Matsumoto example (.pdf) of creating a fake thumb from gelatin.
Ya Sure! You Betcha!, The_THOMAS
What if i want to use a different finger. Will the system allow this. What if i want to send someone else, can i do this. I think this a horrible example of DRM. This is Kroger saying if i lose my thumb i can't get food.
Assume 100% accuracy.
Now, all of these work in some way by communicating some sort of hash, right?
If the hash is compromised, what are your options? Have your finger transplanted?
And shop somewhere else.
One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
In Demolition Man a criminal escaped from prison with a warden's eye on a stick...
Because OOMatter
All biometrics available today, and all imagined for the near future have already been broken. In fact, all systems on the market today are exactly as easily broken as you see in the movies, if not easier (some iris-scan systems have been fooled by photographs. I mean, come on!).
What biometrics is good for is simplifying access controls. For example, you could use your fingerprint instead of your credit card at the ATM machine (but you would still have to input your PIN). But you wouldn't have to carry a dozen plastic cards with you anymore, and be afraid of losing them.
By combining something you are (biometrics) or something you have (credit card) with something you know, you get good security. Never rely on a single point of failure.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
In the not too distant future you might be turned down for health insurance. Why you might ask? Because your grocery buying habits should an excessive proportion of fatty foods that cause high cholesterol, as well as the tobacco products, and all those pain relievers. They track you in the stores now, especially if you have a savings card.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I work for a bank in Guatemala, and we've been experimenting with fingerprint readers with the objective of giving our customers easier access to financial services.
You have to understand that my country has a very high illiteracy rate (40%+), so our primary goal was to reach that sector of society. Normally, they would have to bring a literate witness to verify their identity, which is very demeaning. Now, by using their fingerprint, they can deposit or withdraw money without hassels.
We're not trying to give them an excuse to remain illiterate, we want to give them a little sense of dignity instead. So far, we've had great results, it has also been a great experience for everyone involved.
--Necesito una chela, bien fria...
Agreed, our local store (which happens to be a kroger store) is already testing a few of the methods you have listed. We have automated and self check out lines which I personaly love. It cuts out the small talk that is basically required with going through normal casheer lines. It cuts off at least a few minutes from the shopping trip. Now if I could go through an automated or self checkout line, and instead of having to dig through my wallet for a card, just swipe my finger across a scanner it would be even faster and easier. A lot of you people are being way too paranoid. Sure fingerprints can be copied, but how likely is that going to be in this case? It would be a lot of hassel just to steal groceries don't you think? Now I can see the paranoia if this tech was used like an ATM or whatnot, but groceries?
#(*@!! I tied my thumbprint to my savings instead of checking!!
"in their right hand or on their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, but he that hath the mark."
This refers to fingerprint and retinal ID.
Genius!
It just sounds awefully easy to spoof. And what happens to the entire shopping line if you have grubby fingers and muck up the works?
Please wash your hands before you pay
Every time I get asked if I have one of their cards for "saving", I just say "Sorry, I don't join cults"!
Wait to stick it to the man. Your socially abrasive behavior is a pinnacle to which all of us geeks should aspire.
The truth is that most people will simply find this system convenient. The majority of the populace isn't terribly concerned with their right to privacy. While there will likely be shortfalls with this system, it seems to be generally a useful good idea, especially if other payment options continue to be available. I'd rather carry around my finger than my credit card.
Mod my comments down. It'll be fun.
Time to get the gloves on and start shaking hands with politicians :)
How about a website full of photos of politicians fingerprints? Lets go shopping!
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
The ads saying "What's in your wallet?" will have the answer: "Someone else's thumb."
Cool! Now I can get all my groceries for free just by cutting off other people's fingers!
Yes! Cannot be overemphasized.
DNA just wants to be free...
The potential for abuse of such fine-grained information on your consumer puchases is not just restricted to the government. One goal is for merchants to be able to develop custom pricing structures for each consumer. That is, the current "club member discount" scam (really charging a higher price to those who don't want to be tracked), only more tailored to their estimate of the depth of your pockets. And of course this information will find its way to direct marketers, other merchants, and (if Poindexter isn't put back in his cage) to the Feds.
Look at www.nocards.org for more detail. Even when you discount the advocacy-hysteria that sometimes erupts on that site, there remain serious grounds for concern. The ability to conduct anonymous exchanges is one foundation of a free society.
Whether the means of tracking your identity is based on biometrics such as fingerprints, on RFID tags, or some other technique is irrelevant. It's the level of detail and intrusiveness, as well as the increasing difficulty in opting-out, that's the real problem. This kind of privatized totalitarianism needs to be shut down. Once the data stream is out there, it will be abused.
Get your teeth into a small slice: the cake of liberty
I am a privacy nut myself, but I do use some cards under some circumstances. Anyone who needs the records from my bookstore or dvd store to work out my tastes in either category is likely more dangerous to themselves than to me. Figuring out those patterns is not difficult if you talk to me for a few minutes. If I want something not to appear on any records, I use a different branch than usual, pay cash and deny having a card. Simple.
As for groceries and such, I have stores nearby where I can get better prices than the cards get you at the chains, and I don't have to give them any info at all.
Sigmentation fault - core dumped
The lack of a direct address has its uses, but my primary reason for using one of these is that I order lots of expensive things that arrive by assorted couriers (USPS, UPS, FedEx, carrier turtle, etc.) and instead of getting a tag to pick it up, or having it left on my doorstep or with neighbors who may not remember right away, it gets signed for when needed and is watched by paid mail-watchers until I pick it up.
The largest item to date through there has been a large TV. I was able to leave it there for a few days while I made my own arrangements for pickup, and I was not at the mercy of the delivery service as to when to be home.
This also limits the damage caused by kids stuffing snowballs in the mailbox.
Sigmentation fault - core dumped
This can be iether very good, or very bad
Very good if: Makes the use of them redidulous CD prosumer keeper outers go away. (A routine finger print lifting scheme for example)
Gets rid of them cameras in bathrooms based on prior argument and makes for a alternate way to sebtle store debts
Very bad if:It uses linux, implemented by Linus ____ official of political power installs it, used as yet another way to ensure getting a false positive " " on drug tests (in halers, stims such as steriods for week - underdeveloped frames etc)
If your a law officer gel molds would be a headache
Customers can register for the voluntary program by presenting a drivers license, an index finger and a method of payment -- either credit card, debit card or electronic check. I wonder if they return the customer's finger when they're finished with it.
The main concern is privacy not identity theft. See places like CASPIAN for examples of why identity linked databases for shopping tracking could be(and are being) horribly abused by these chains. The reason the finger print is even worse then the cards is that the finger print is linked directly to you and only you (barring forgery of finger prints of course) whereas with some cards you can put false or no information on signing up (although some require ID when signing up). If these fingerprints are correlated with any other database (IAO program anyone?) then suddenly anyone with access could know way more about you then you can imagine (think of the detectives that go through peoples trash to learn all kinds of neat things for an example of what I mean). The fact that your fingerprints are being linked to something as seemingly "irrelevant" as groceries is much worse then an ATM as it shows how pervasive we will allow this kind of tracking to be. Being paranoid doesn't make me wrong.
I don't have a sig, can I borrow yours?
Okay I have no idea what the heck you are talking about, but it sounds interesting. Not to pull you into an off-topic (and potentially karma-killing, if you care) conversation, but what is misinterpreted, and what does it have to do with his finger?
A frighteningly common american religious right interpretation of the mark of the beast is that it's a chip or some other embedded tracking device. "666 chip" Before that they thought it would be a tattoo.
These are the same sorts of people who go around looking for satanic symbolism on products and demand boycotts of corps like proctor and gamble because they think they once printed something on thier boxes that looked like it could be a satanic symbol. Apple was also once a victim because they ran an ad for a $666.66 computer kit. (Woz later said that he had *no* idea tht number had religious meaning to some people" Even Intel is afraid of these people as proved by their clocking up by 1 mhz to 6667 mhz a few years ago.
The finger of the beast comment was a hilliarious play on that sort of thinking.
PS no I don't care about karma.. much I'm capped anyways and it never takes me long to get it back.
oops that's 667 mhz.
Now this reminds me of back to the future part 2. Part of my favourite movie trilogy btw. :) The scene where old biff gets out of the taxi cab and pushes his thumb into the scanner as a credit card as payment. If we can fix the security issues with finger print scanners, then we're pretty much set. Cause then the only way to use someone else's finger print is to have their finger with you.
Where in Safeway do you work? :-)
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
I, for one, don't like the results evidenced by my local Fred Meyers stores. Product-line consolidation/elimination has begun, presumably for cost reduction.
Example: These cheddar-heads no longer sell milk in cardboard cartons. Except for the small quart-sized ones, all milk is now sold in plastic containers. These are the translucent ones, which let UV light in, which damages the milk, which makes it taste "funny." I also dislike the way in which plastic containers' screw-on caps collect dried, cruddy "milk dust." Every time (after the first) you open that sucker, dried milk crumbs fall all over, and into the milk container. Blech!
I wrote to Kroger's customer service to complain about these containers. While they did send me a coupon for a free half gallon of [plastic-enshrouded] milk (which I happily used), this simply served to remind me how much I dislike these containers. The rest of the letter I received from Kroger essentially said: bugger off then, we don't want your kind!
As a result, I generally avoid Freddy's for groceries -- especially if I know I need milk.
A Severe Strain on the Credulity
As a method of sending a missile to the higher, and even to the
highest parts of the earth's atmospheric envelope, Professor Goddard's rocket
is a practicable and therefore promising device. It is when one considers the
multiple-charge rocket as a traveler to the moon that one begins to doubt...
for after the rocket quits our air and really starts on its journey, its
flight would be neither accelerated nor maintained by the explosion of the
charges it then might have left. Professor Goddard, with his "chair" in
Clark College and countenancing of the Smithsonian Institution, does not
know the relation of action to re-action, and of the need to have something
better than a vacuum against which to react... Of course he only seems to
lack the knowledge ladled out daily in high schools.
-- New York Times Editorial, 1920
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