Windows XP Media Center Edition Review

Harpreet writes "It took 2 months but someone finally published an informative review of the new Windows XP Media Center Edition operating system. AnandTech's review has got everything you could want, including pictures galore. It looks like the folks who make the Linux based Video Disk Recorder have a new standard to live up to." Update: 01/08 21:06 GMT by T : Read on below for a different (Free software, CD-based) approach to computer-A/V integration.

Trunkboy writes "There are a lot of PVR projects out there (Freevo, TiVo, Dave&Dina, etc... but MoviX is a little different. MoviX is an entire distribution (linux of course) that is designed to play avi/mpg/mp3/etc files from a computer. Upgrading is easy, because it boots from a CD! Videos/music can be stored on a local hard drive, or on a network share. This project is incredible, but needs more developers. Stop in and give Roberto a hand -- MoviX shows some great potential!"

Comments

Well

[TerryAtWork]

Let's see how much unwanted DRM they lumber THIS one with...

Re:Well

[Eric Damron]

I don't know who modded the parent down as a troll but DRM is a legitimate concern here.

Re:Well

[greechneb]

I'd have to agree, seeing that xp reports back to home when you do file searches.

You can only imagine what it sends when you record tv....

Re:Well

[haeger]

...and that's why You'll always put a "personal firewall" on Your windows-machines and never let them out unless You specifically tell it to.

I don't trust my win-box farther than I can throw it (which happens to be approximatly 7,5 meters if detached from all cables.)

.haeger

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the following about details on DRM usage within Windows XP Media Center Edition. In most cases no DRM will be used at all. It is the responsibility of the provider to use CGMS-A (copy generation management system/analog) to mark a program for DRM.

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/windowsxp_med iacenter_copy.asp

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

I read the article you linked later in the thread. While (if it is true, haven't verified it yet) technically what you say is true, your phrase is misleading. When you do a websearch on google, do they not know who (ip address) is searching and what (keywords) is being searched for? How is this any different, besides you are unable to use a proxy to hide who you are? Read your own link, for local searches it does not "report back home" which is what your post implies.

Re:Well

[wompser]

Interesting. I think it was modded as redundant (though it was the first post) because it says what everyone was already expecting it to say. I mean, of course the first post on a microsoft media story is going to be anti-MS with reference to any one of the most hated MS practices (insert your favorite: DRM, closed source, monopoly behaviour, Pallidium, clubbing baby seals, etc.)

This says something interesing about the Slashdot mindset: anti-MS statements are considered redundant whether they've already been stated or not. (well Duh!)

Re:Well

[andrewski]

Not a troll. You can only play back recorded video on the computer it was recorded on. Microsoft may announce playback on other devices in the future. For now, it's drm city baby!

Re:Well

[tealover]

Why? Because it will limit the theft of copyrighted materials?

Re:Well

[timmyf2371]

No. Because it will limit our fair-use rights protected by law.

Re:Well

[Narchie Troll]

The U.S. copyright act, silly. 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Re:Well

[Daniel Phillips]

Interesting. I think it was modded as redundant (though it was the first post) because it says what everyone was already expecting it to say.

More likely, it received 11 negative moderations because someone in Redmond has a Perl script that monitors Slashdot and sounds klaxons all over the campus every time the word Microsoft appears in an article.

Re:Well

[Daniel Phillips]

...and that's why You'll always put a "personal firewall" on Your windows-machines and never let them out unless You specifically tell it to.

Putting a firewall on a box that's already running hostile code is a non-starter in terms of security. Remember, Microsoft has complete access to your system, and can do whatever they want to your firewall, including ignoring it completely. You'd be much better off front-ending your XP box with a firewall running on a Linux machine.

Re:Well

[Bisifiniti]

Negative, the script is written in VB.

Re:Well

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

No, actually, they can't. First, my windows box isn't "trusted" by my firewall. Two, the first time they ATTEMPT to configure security on my network, there will be an anthill's worth of FBI agents crawing through the Redmond campuses. My firewall isn't running an MS operating system, and they are specifically prohibited from attempting to change its configuration. See: Patriot Act, hacking and cybercrimes section.

Re:Well

[Eric Damron]

.
Piracy is a real problem and I have spoke out vigorously against stealing intellectual property of any kind.

However, DRM destroys our fair use rights as defined under copyright law. It's not good for the consumer. It's being pushed by a Software monopoly that has already been found guilty of breaking antitrust laws and an entertainment cartel that fixes prices and lobbies (bribes) our politicians in order to subvert justice.

Re:Well

[Eric Damron]

You really have never heard of fair use?? Well then, from the copyright law:

107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use38

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include-

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

Re:Well

[tealover]

DRM is being pushed by Microsoft? I think you need to take your blinders off. It's being pushed by the music and film industry. Microsoft is trying to do business with those entities.

If you're going to complain about the technology, the least you could do is get informed about the issue rather than trot out tired cliches and toss around silly names ("cartel"...gee, that's creative)

Re:Well

[hany]

It's being pushed by the music and film industry. Microsoft is trying to do business with those entities.

I may agree with you with one aditional note:

Microsoft is trying to make business with music and film industries by helping them to push DRM in exchange for money (mostly share from future income of those industries).

So in the end, it is (almost) same as what Eric Damron stated.

Re:Well

[oliverthered]

Intellectual property is a well known oxymoron, how can I steal something I don't believe in.

Pray tell, coes it's going to take a very long time......... Intellectual property is all in the mind.

Re:Well

[Alsee]

I don't trust my win-box farther than I can throw it (which happens to be approximatly 7,5 meters if detached from all cables.)

Yeah, if the cables are disconnected you can trust it about 7.5 meters. If the cables are still connected you can only trust it a couple of centimeters :)

-

Re:Well

[Alsee]

It is the responsibility of the provider to use CGMS-A (copy generation management system/analog) to mark a program for DRM.

LOL. That's nothing but a "broadcast flag" system.

In most cases no DRM will be used at all.

Bullsht. Once they start using the flag EVERY case will be DRM, except commercials and maybe PBS.

There's no fscking way I'm ever going to buy a DRM-drippled product. Microsoft's claim that they are backing off on using DRM is nothing but a marketing lie.

-

Re:Well

[Eric Damron]

Yes, DRM is being pushed by Microsoft and others. Do you find it surprising that I mention the fact? Being that the original article is about a Microsoft product you shouldn't be. As far as criticizing my use of the word "cartel", that's a pathetic debating tactic worthy of a high school student.

cartel - A combination of independent businesses formed to regulate production, pricing and marketing of goods by the members. Yep, seems to be the correct word.

Re:Well

[darien]

Unfortunately for you, the question is whether the judge believes in it.

Re:New standards??

[alen]

Is Linux any different? It seems like I get an email from redhat at least once a week about a patch for something.

Freevo

[Any_User]

This seems like a push to remove Freevo and the other Tivo-like software out of the market. The only problems with the PVR software your run on your general purpose computer is that other software gets in the way. I would prefer a dedicated machine for PVR usage and another for generalized computing.

Re:Freevo

[good-n-nappy]

OK, my attention span is gone, can someone please tell me how I can get the functionality of a Tivo as cheaply and with as minimal effort as possible. I'm not trying to pick a side on the whole PC vs. set-top appliance issue, I just care about functionality for crying out loud!

I would buy a Tivo, ReplayTV, or UltimateTV but these all require subscriptions (yes, they do now REQUIRE subscriptions). I don't want to pay an additional $10 per month for that. However, I also don't want to take on a whole tech support project just so I can have a PVR.

So maybe my question is - how cheaply can I get a PC and a video I/O card and a remote control - that are all guaranteed to work with any one of the PVR software packages. Can someone give me a quick summary? (Or even better, is there a Tivo clone that doesn't require a subscription?)

Re:Freevo

[agallagh42]

All the current AIW cards from ATI come with an RF remote (Remote Wonder), including the bargain priced AIW 7500.

Check out MythTV!!!

[brunes69]

The project mentioned in the topic is only for DBS satelite users. For everyone else, check out MythTV. This project is so impressive I cannot even explain all its features here. Just go look at it yourself. It is amazing, does almost everything TiVo does (including interactive electronic program guide), plus is a MAME front end, CD player, image browser, and more. Make sure to check out the screenshots!

Re:Check out MythTV!!!

[brunes69]

Ever heard of the LiRC project? Myth fully supports all liRC remotes.

Re:Check out MythTV!!!

[Raster Burn]

This Website has some good info on how to build a Myth box. I believe you can also buy one from them if you're lazy :)

Re:Check out MythTV!!!

[radish]

lesseee here, no season passes (doh!), no suggestions (doh!), needs a athlon 1800 all to itself (DOH!). Thanks, I think I'll stick with Tivo.

Re:Check out MythTV!!!

[Mike Hicks]

You can do the equivalent of a season pass, and you can restrict the recording of shows in certain ways too. I'm running a MythTV box on a 1GHz Athlon. Not the greatest video quality, but I think the only things I've paid for on the system are some quieter fans and a TV tuner.. I figure it's not a bad deal for $100..

Re:Check out MythTV!!!

[ChaosDiscord]

no season passes (doh!), no suggestions (doh!), needs a athlon 1800 all to itself (DOH!). Thanks, I think I'll stick with Tivo.

Actually, MythTV does support season passes. In fact, it gives you more options than a Tivo. check it out. "Record this program whenever it's shown on this channel" is the equivalent of Tivo's Season Pass.

It does lack suggestions. That's a shame, but it's still a work in progress. I can live without them.

It does want an athlon 1800, but you can easily get such a processor for $100. If you're willing to put some work into it you can put together a suitable system for about the same price as a Tivo with lifetime subscription. The resulting system will be more generally capable than a Tivo (web browser, game player, MP3/OGG player, record to CD or DVD, simple video editor (suitable for editing out commercials for personal archival use).

Yes MythTV lags behind Tivo. It looks like the listing information is being screen scraped off a web site. If it gets popular that's going to get shut off. (Fortunately there are pay services they'll be able to switch to.) MythTV is relatively new and under heavy development, so you'll either live with reduced functionality or spend time upgrading. As it matures that will change. To put together a machine to run it on cheaply you'll need to invest alot of your own time. Right now, if you're looking for something that just works out of the box, Tivo is probably the right answer. But MythTV is showing alot of promise for the future. Personally I love my Tivo. However, Tivo is showing signs of becoming consumer hostile. They recently decided to change the terms of the lifetime subscription I already paid for from "paying for guide service" to "paying to use the Tivo at all" and declaring that I'm prohibited from modifying my Tivo (with say the popular extra hard drive). I'm not filled with trust for Tivo's future at this point. I'm glad to know that if Tivo's terms become too onerous, I'll have a Free option to try. If I decide I'd just be interested in hacking on a PVR for the fun of it, a project exists I can start with.

(On an unrelated note, it was a moderately big deal when Tivo made the change to the service agreement, but I haven't been able to turn up any good web summaries of the changes. I was certainly ticked off because I specifically researched the service agreement before deciding to purchase a Tivo and a lifetime subscription. Silly me, I foolishly assumed that the "We can revise this agreement at will" clause would never be used to screw me so hard. I made the mistake that the previous pro-customer attitude and unofficial support for modifications would last. I was clearly wrong. On the up side, it reinforced my belief: any company which has a "we can screw you at will" clause, but promises to never use it will eventually break that promise. The only way to protect yourself is to assume that any contract will be abused to harm you, the consumer, as much as possible. I'm so freaking happy that we get to live in a world were we have to assume everyone is out to get us. Hopefully as more citizens get screwed they'll start demanding fair license agreements. Anyway.... back to the original digression...

Can someone offer a good reference beyond the actual agreement? Ideally a site comparing the original and revised agreements with a little analysis of why the changes are bad for customers.)

Re:Check out MythTV!!!

[trix_e]

From the MythTV website:

What it does:
*Basic 'live-tv' functionality. Pause/Fast Forward/Rewind "live" TV.
*[lots of other really cool stuff]

hmmm... that IS a cool feature...Fast Forward live TV.

I'd think the box would pay for itself in a matter of days, I'll just watch CNBC and keep my Ameritrade account open and ready to go.

Re:Check out MythTV!!!

[nhavar]

WinLIRC and Girder also are available remote control products and can work with many remotes and IR devices.

I am using Girder now (Girder and LIRC/WinLIRC can also work in concert). I have girder on WinXP Pro using an ATI AIW128pro hooked to my living room TV. I built a $9.00 IR receiver (parts all from RadioShack) so that I could use my One-for-all programmable/learning/pc programable remote to play DVD/CD/Winamp without needing to touch the wireless kb/mouse.

The setup is pretty painless, I can schedule shows or use a transmitter to send DVD broadcasts to my kids' or wife's room, if someone is watching something else on the TV. I can watch something on cable, record something on the PC, and record something else on the VCR if need be. The One-for-all is a great remote for the price and has good punch through and macro features so I don't have to do alot of key mashing just to watch a DVD or play the VCR (i.e. First turn off the cable then hit VCR then change to channel 00 then hit tv/vcr then hit DVD then power then play - JUST HIT MACRO1). After I get the IR transmitter built I won't have to use the MACRO1 button GIRDER or LIRC will take care of manipulating the VCR/CableBox.

The other nice thing about this setup is that I can watch TV while someone else plays a game on the PC or browses the net(with the headphones on). Unfortunately if I want to use the "live TV mode" of the computer it has to be free from other users.

Re:Check out MythTV!!!

[JohnFluxx]

I've had mythtv installed for a week now, and love it. The best feature is that even though I haven't been on my computer for 2 weeks, but use the web interface to scan for tv shows and mark them to record. It automatically records futurama and simpsons daily for me. I then reencode them as mpeg4, scp them to the machine I'm currently on, and watch them from there :)

Re:Check out MythTV!!!

[radish]

I'm interested in what you say re: the service agreement. I'm in the UK and we've had no notice of any changes to our agreements, and certainly no word that mods are no longer "allowed". In fact on the Tivo UK forum we have a company rep who shows up every so often and basically says "not change, do what you wanna" - even though 80% of the posts are about one kind of mod or another.

Oh well, we're still on series 1 Tivos anyway, and there's nothing easier than a quick mfstools disk upgrade and plug in TurboNet :)

If you could point to a web version of the new agreement or anything it would be useful...may be a taste of what's to come for us.

Re:Check out MythTV!!!

[zsmooth]

For $200 you could have the real thing.

Re:Check out MythTV!!!

[ibbey]

I own a Tivo, and am building a MythTV box (though I'll probably switch to Freevo once it's a little more mature). Some things you can't do on Tivo that you can (or will be able to soon) on Myth:

• Two (or more) tuners
  
• Archive to CD or DVD
  
• Play DVD's
  
• Watch recorded programs in any room in the house *
  
• Browse the web**
  
• Send & recieve email**
  
• Schedule recordings from the internet-- potentially even by phone.
  
• More...
  

My MythTV box will probably end up costing me about $800, but that's only because I bought pretty much top-of-the-line gear, and am overbuilding quite a bit. One could easily build a fast, two-tuner MythTV box for $500, assuming they are buying everything-- if you already have some of the components, you can knock quite a bit off that. Keep in mind, this price is for a fast (~2100+ Athlon) two-tuner unit- you can record two seperate programs while at the same time watching a recording. This is not possible on any current Tivo, with the exception of the DirecTivo-- which of course locks you into DirecTV. If you don't want to be able to do all that at once, or if you are willing to sacrifice some picture quality, you can easily get by with slower computer. There are several people happily running MythTV on 700Mhz or slower machines.

Now, there are still some disadvantages. Mainly, the software is still considerably less userfriendly then Tivo. But that should improve greatly over time. Considering that the project has only been around since April 2002, I think any lack of friendliness can be forgiven.

Finally, building your own system has the additional value of being, well, your own. Sure Tivo is great. I still tell everyone I talk to about it to buy one. But personally, I'll be very happy when the day comes that I can ditch the Tivo for my own, homebrewed system.

* Requires a computer with a TV out card-- doesn't need to be fast, though.

** Granted, a TV is not the best internet environment, but for many people, this would be handy.

Of course

[nrvous6]

Expect Service Pack 1 sometime in 2006...

Re:Of course

[ThrasherTT]

Don't you mean Service Pack 42? I mean, damn... three years and only one SP?

Standards?

[grub]

It looks like the folks who make the Linux based Video Disk Recorder have a new standard to live up to.

Yes, the Linux VDR people will have to figure out how to hide spyware in their (open) source code.

Some things are better left off the computer

[FortKnox]

I have a TiVo.
I use a TiVo instead of piping my cable through my computer for a reason.
Its the same reason I have a football games on my GameCube.

Some things are just better without the PC.
Why would I use awkward PVR abilities of my PC (requiring me to sit in a specific spot, and use a mouse) when I can plop down on my couch and pick up the TiVo remote?
There's a reason speciliazed components sell better than PC software geared to do the same thing.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[angle_slam]

Why would I use awkward PVR abilities of my PC (requiring me to sit in a specific spot, and use a mouse) when I can plop down on my couch and pick up the TiVo remote?

As the article notes, there is a remote available for the MCE PC. There are also 3rd party remotes available if you want to build your own home theater PC.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[KDan]

I agree. The purpose of a PVR is simple and clear, and doesn't require all the complexity (and expense!) of a PC to manage.

They would have done better to design a simple set-top box that you put on your TV and has all the fancy interfaces on the TV screen and the remote and all that, and which records the shows on an internal hard drive which is then accessible from your PC (through a Firewire, USB2, or even an ethernet cable), so that you can download/manage the files from your PC (which is good at that).

Why buy a whole PC and leave it sitting next to your TV, afraid to use it for other things (like playing that LAN game of UT2003 when friends come round!) because then it might crash or somehow fail to record the show you wanted recorded??

Daniel

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[LoudMusic]

Did you read the article? No mouse required. And this isn't inteded to be on your workstation. It's intended to be used with a computer sitting next to your television/AV Receiver.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[angle_slam]

Also, you can upgrade the space to your PC a lot easier than upgrading the space to your TiVO (which can't be upgraded without voiding the warranty and can only hold 2 hard drives anyway.) You can stick 8 200 GB hard drives into many cases (though probably not the HP they tested). Having the time to watch 1600 GB of stored TV shows is another matter.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[NetJunkie]

It is meant as a whole PC. They cost a lot. I could buy a lot of TiVos for the price of one, AND pay for the service. The commercials promote them as a PC and a PVR.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[Eric Damron]

That is exactly why I didn't agree with Microsoft when they said that video streaming was going to power the next generation of PCs. Why would I want to sit at my PC for a couple of hours and watch a movie on my monitor??

Lots of people have entertainment centers that allow the whole family to be comfortable while watching movies. I just can't see my family croweded around my PC watching "The Two Towers."

Oh well, to each his own I guess.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[Scyber]

But for the price of the Media Center PC you can buy 2 set-top PVRs with activation/service. And as a PVR owner two tuners is much better than unlimited space.

Plus w/ replayTV you can just use DVarchive (http://dvarchive.sourceforge.net/) to offload your shows to your PC and stream them back to your replaytv whenever you want.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[geekoid]

PCs are cheap, and easy to upgrade. You do not need a 1000 dollar PC to make a pvr. You can do it much cheaper, with more feature(if you desire) and use different media to save you shows.Want to save it to Digital tape? no problem, cdr? no problem.

You don't have to worry about spyware telling somebody what shows you recorded, and then having it tell someone everytime you watch it.

Those are the advantages of using a computer. as far as asthetics, get a case that matches your entertainment center.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[CormacJ]

Actually you can now hold four drives in a tivo:

http://www.9thtee.com/tivoquaddrive.htm

The upgrade process on a tivo has been mainstreamed enough that upgrading your tivo drive is a pretty easy job.

The main difference between MCE and Tivo is that on MCE a 93gb disk gets you 5 hours and change of recording at best. A 40gb Tivo gets you the same amount of time, so until Micro$oft stops using a bloated encoding system you're not getting value for your disk space.

Personally, I still wouldn't trust MCE as my primary PVR. I don't want something that can be that flaky when recording stuff I want to watch.

My Tivo does a wonderful job for that, and in 3 years my Tivo has never crashed. This is where you want to spend money: Linux is designed to remain up for infinite periods of time, and that has always been an issue that Microsoft has been weak on. You can make MS platforms reliable if you are willing to take the time and devote energy to it. I know, I manage a large mix of MS and Linux platforms. My linux platforms have always been "install and mostly forget" servers. All I do it keep them updated and tidy up sometimes. My MS platforms need babying, they are always finding a different way to require attention, and when MS needs attention *everything* stops until you fix it.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[Anonymous Custard]

Why would I want to sit at my PC for a couple of hours and watch a movie on my monitor??

If all you want is a DVD player, then buy a DVD player; the Media Center PC probably isn't for you. But if you want a Super PVR, then get the PC.

For families, I think the idea is that you could hook this up to your living room TV and stereo system, and it becomes an expandable, multi-function, Super TiVo, PLUS it's a state-of-the-art computer when you want it to be.

For college dorms or small apartments, you probably wouldn't have a TV much larger that a 19 or 21 inch computer monitor anyway. I watched DVD movies all the time on my 19" Samsung 955DF and ATI All-In-Wonder card in my college dorm, and it was excellent. Heck, I also had an old 13" hitachi TV on the other side of the room, and would watch two shows at once sometimes.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[Zathrus]

you can upgrade the space to your PC a lot easier than upgrading the space to your TiVO

Not really. If you're competent enough to add a new HD to a PC, you're competent enough to add one to a TiVo. It requires a bit more work, yes, but so what? It requires a lot less work to actually use the thing, which is the whole point. Not to swap components out hourly.

can't be upgraded without voiding the warranty

DirecTiVo's have no such limitation (at least not the Series2's, and I don't think the S1's did either). There's no sticker saying "opening voids warrantee" or any such thing. Besides which, it's a 90 day parts warrantee anyway.

And while, yes, you can stick an absurd amount of disk space in a standard PC, what's the point? I have 110 GB on my TiVo and I've never even come close to filling it.

Maybe if it handled MP3/OGG/FLAC/whatever as well it would be an issue, or if it could do HD, but TiVo doesn't. For what TiVo does do, no HTPC comes even close.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[scenic]

Well, you're right about some things. To bring this back a bit more on topic, if you choose XP Media Center, then you may be wrong. This is from the article:

There are a lot of improvements that must be made in order for MCE to really take off however; first and foremost, the performance issues we encountered are unacceptable. Unfortunately, it may take mainstream Hyper-Threading enabled Pentium 4s with an 800MHz FSB in order to mask the stuttering issues that occur during normal use of MCE as a PVR. As far as stability goes, we'd expect the limited number of hardware vendors to more thoroughly stress test and ensure their machines won't be crashing in a media center environment; like we've mentioned before, who wants to explain why their TV just blue screened?

You may really need a big ass expensive machine to do this right. Also, one other concern that they didn't address is sound. When my Tivo is recording and the room is silent, I can barely pick up the hard drive writing sounds. No fan, no other hum, nothing. Would you really expect that from a PC? I used to have a server in the room with dual CPUs and 3 hard drive (one SCSI monster) which made my room sound like you were in a car on the highway. Even after removing SCSI drive and one IDE drive, and otherwise altering the fans, it's still too loud for the living room.

My point is just that having a PC vs. having an appliance involves more than just upgradeability. One of the reasons that modifying an appliance should void a warranty is that Tivo or ReplayTV can make assumptions about cooling, noise, and ventilation based on their tests on fixed hardware. You throw those out the window if you decide to put a 10000 RPM drive into your Tivo.

Also, aesthetically, the HP they used didn't really look like it belongs in my entertainment center... it's vertically oriented, has a keyboard (!!!), and it otherwise annoying.

Anyway, I guess if you have a spare PC or lots of money and want to get upgradeability in a familiar setup, go for it. I'd rather stick with my Tivo, with it's known privacy issues and have a quiet living room with low power consumption. I can see a place for both, and I'm sure people will buy the one that makes the most sense for them.

Sujal

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[daviddennis]

While it's true that they have a remote, I'm not sure how useful it would be with the typical monitor I see attached to a PC.

And the trend is undeniably towards more immersive viewing experiences (i.e. 60 inch plasma screens, etc).

I didn't notice anything about the monitor in the Media Center PC spec, but I'll bet most of these systems have standard 15 or 17" monitors, and most people using them are watching TV from an office chair.

There's nothing wrong with that per se, but I would think a remote control would be next to useless -- and the first thing a buyer would lose.

What you really need to make this concept work is a true HDTV monitor. Unfortunately, at about $5,000-odd, that's not cheap, even compared to the price of this system.

D

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[shyster]

I have a TiVo. I use a TiVo instead of piping my cable through my computer for a reason. Its the same reason I have a football games on my GameCube. Some things are just better without the PC. Why would I use awkward PVR abilities of my PC (requiring me to sit in a specific spot, and use a mouse) when I can plop down on my couch and pick up the TiVo remote?

Did you not read the article and decide to comment anyway (like this guy, who at least made a valid point)? Or are you Reading Comprehension Challenged? Either way, surely you've noticed the variety of remote control hardware and software available for PC's now? Not to mention that the XP MCE PC reviewed comes with a (preinstalled even!) remote? And, there's always ATI's Remote Wonder to work with your AIW card, so you can sit on your couch and control your PC in another room. And of course, the XP MCE (as mentioned in the article, is targeted towards being either in your living room or your TV and PC combined (for smaller spaces)p>

There's a reason speciliazed components sell better than PC software geared to do the same thing.

Yeah, but I always thought it was a matter of stability and ease of setup, and sometimes even quality...but maybe it's more consumer ignorance, which you might want to look into becoming the poster child of.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[shyster]

The purpose of a PVR is simple and clear, and doesn't require all the complexity (and expense!) of a PC to manage.

A PVR's purpose is clear, and as demonstrated, MS has done a decent job of getting that part down. Of course, MS is trying to build a Media Center, of which PVR functionality is only one part. It's the most visible part because of the success of TiVO and the like, but MS isn't stopping there (like TiVo and ReplayTV do).

Already, XP MCE adds support for a host of other video and audio files, and can continue to add support for other or newer formats (that's the beauty of a PC, it can be taught to do new things with software).

I'd expect some video editing programs to be released that can edit MS's bastardized MPEG-2 content Real Soon, and a way to convert them to DivX as well (commercial or otherwise). MS may even see the light and drop the format all together.

You can easily archive content to removable storage, or add internal or external drives for archiving (will your TiVO burn DVD's?).

Indexing and searching are a natural addition, as is streaming to other "receivers" (PC's with MCE Client software for AV decoding connected to other TV's) around the network.

Make no mistake, MS isn't building a PVR. MS is testing the waters for a MS Digital Media Server in your home. It's classic MS...throw together existing components, wrap it up in a pretty GUI, and release v1.0. Figure out the bugs and add a few small features and release SP1. Then, if it sticks, run with it and add feature after feature until it's too bloated and cumbersome to take any more. If it doesn't stick, shelve it and write it off.

My prediction: It won't stick...not right now. But it'll be back (whether from MS or someone else) in about 3-5 years, and it'll be a pretty profitable market to be in.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[angle_slam]

While it's true that they have a remote, I'm not sure how useful it would be with the typical monitor I see attached to a PC.

There's nothing preventing you from attaching a PC to a television. In fact, many of today's video cards have s-video outputs. Plus, many projectors have VGA or DVI inputs and there are also devices that convert VGA to component inputs (such as this one.) In fact, the entire premise of the HTPC (Home theater PC) is that the PC is actually better than a standalone DVD player, because of the availability of scalers and custom resolutions. Not to mention the fact that it can also serve as an MP3 jukebox. Check out the HTPC FAQ. (Not to mention the fact that it is generally easier to get a region-free DVD-ROM drive than a region-free standalone DVD.)

Of course, Windows XP MCE is not necessary to play DVDs or to record tv shows, despite what MS would want you to think.

Off topic: Despite recent jokes about fancy computer cases, HTPC is a growing niche market and people want fancy computer cases (such as this Coolermaster case) because they want to put their PC with their receiver and other HT equipment.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[angle_slam]

And while, yes, you can stick an absurd amount of disk space in a standard PC, what's the point? I have 110 GB on my TiVo and I've never even come close to filling it. Maybe if it handled MP3/OGG/FLAC/whatever as well it would be an issue, or if it could do HD, but TiVo doesn't. For what TiVo does do, no HTPC comes even close.

So you don't think a PC can handle MP3 files? Ever hear of Winamp (just to name one of dozens of MP3 players available for PCs.). As for HD, yes a PC can handle HD. Maybe not the Win XP MCE, but how about this? (I don't know if PVR capabilities for HD are ready yet with that product, but PVR capabilities are available with this one.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[angle_slam]

(I don't know if PVR capabilities for HD are ready yet with that product, but PVR capabilities are available with this one.)

Whoops, there should have been a link to AccessDTV HDTV decoder, which does have PVR capabilities. What was it someone was saying about no HTPC coming close to TiVo?

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[Zathrus]

You don't get it. Yes, a HTPC can do more, but it doesn't do it as well. Nothing on the home built front comes close to the usability or features of a TiVo within the PVR realm. Sure, you can build one that does other stuff, and that's a valid thing, but every solution out there is kludgy and inelegant.

Of course, if you'd bothered to read some of my past comments you would've noted that I recommend AVSforum for HTPC needs, and that they've been doing HDTV time shifting for two years now. I know quite well of what I speak.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[Saint Fnordius]

It gets even more interesting. Remember Apple's "Digital Hub" strategy? Well, TiVo is now officialy a member, with Rendezvous support promised in the documents!

This is different than Microsoft's strategy, as Apple is positioning its machines as the traffic controller, helping disparate devices exchange the relevant data. How about dumping your faves from TiVo onto your iMac and burning your own archive DVDs? How about a video iPod that can take your TiVo's recordings on the road? Or pictures from your digital camera into a TiVo album/slide show?

Not interesting enough? Well, Apple's opened the source of Rendevous, and has no qualms about allowing a Linux adaptation of it! Apparently they want to compete on the basis of their hardware/software integration again, not just on lockout.

So now we have two opposing philosophies: Microsoft's "embrace and extend", and Apple's "digital hub". One wants to take over the whole show, the other wants to connect and choreograph.

Re:Some things are better left off the computer

[DaytonCIM]

As the article notes, there is a remote available for the MCE PC. There are also 3rd party remotes available if you want to build your own home theater PC.

That's all fine and dandy, but my computer is not in my living room (where my TV is). IMO Tivo is still better.

MSFT marches on....

[Giant Ape Skeleton]

This is just further evidence that any technological convergence is by necessity, first and foremost, a marketing convergence.

------

Anand also wrote about MCE in

[joeflies]

Computer Power User this month. Covered the HP with the emuzed card in particular

Re:New standards??

[kaosrain]

VDR released an update to their first version to fix problems. Which is better: releasing an update the day the product comes out, or releasing the update later? Either way, the first version of both programs had bugs, and they got fixed. I'm not aware of any programs that were perfect on their first release.

Lack of ATI support

[dewboy]

The article states that "the vast majority of TV tuner cards available will not work" -- and this includes all ATI All-In-Wonder cards. The only two cards supported are the Hauppauge WinTV PVR and the Emuzed Maui PCI PVR.

Personally, I think I'll stick with my ATI card and Video Disk Recorder.

Re:Lack of ATI support

[delus10n0]

Sorry, but your ATI doesn't do hardware MPEG2 encoding/decoding-- while a WinTV PVR or Emuzed Maui PVR will.

A hardware MPEG2 encoding/decoding board is what is needed for the Media Center OS.

direct link

[eldimo]

Direct link to article without ads

Want to know why it took that long?

[Chris_Stankowitz]

"It took 2 months but someone finally published an informative review of the new Windows XP Media Center Edition operating system."

I took me that long to get it installed.

An unstoppable marketing blitz....

[mao che minh]

Microsoft should get Ellen Fiess and Steve the "Dude" guy of Dell fame to market this 'innovative' (heh) new technology. Could you imagine how amazing that marketing campaign would be?

Re:An unstoppable marketing blitz....

[stratjakt]

I wanna be a Dell intern.

*... taking notes ...*
*... taking notes ...*
*... taking notes ...*
Dude, how do you spell 'PC'?

Re:An unstoppable marketing blitz....

[pi_rules]

...and Steve the "Dude" guy of Dell fame to market this 'innovative' (heh) new technology. Could you imagine how amazing that marketing campaign would be?

Yeah.

Dude, you're getting screwed...

Hmm...

[NetJunkie]

First, you can't buy the software to build your own. Which means most of the options right now cost a lot. I'd like to build a cheap(er) box aimed JUST at the Media Center features and not also need it to be a great gaming PC or whatever from Gateway.

I don't want a PC. I want a nice AV unit in my component rack, like my TiVo. But the TiVo is getting dated. I need high def support. I need faster processing so I don't get annoyed at the menus. I think if you'd put the TiVo interface on the RePlay hardware we'd have a hit. Good interface with the best features.

Re:your sig.

[iuyterw]

Your mom?

ha, ha..

just kidding

Bring your Lawyers!

[Angry White Guy]

From the article:
Before you can proceed in the program guide setup you have to scroll through the 44 pages of the Terms of Service and select agree. Once again, this is done fairly quickly using the remote just by holding the down-arrow and then hitting ok.

That's good, sound advice there. Don't bother reading it.

Re:No so fast there

[frankthechicken]

I don't have the time to read the article but I'm guessing it has several flaws

Ah yes, the typical consulting way of doing things, making a decision before knowing any facts.

I doubt that..

[notque]

I really doubt that Microsoft is making this software with any intention aside from

3. Profit.

I don't think they have any grudge for Tivo, they just would like to make money off anything they can.

Microsoft has a wonderful monopoly going. Everyone knows they want/need a computer, and it comes packaged with so many things that most people don't have any idea what they bought it for.

They just continue to package things in it that people will use. Tivo may never make it, but when Microsoft can just bundle things together, you will.

I don't like corn, but if i had to buy it at the store every time I bought carrots, I would own a lot of corn, and you would never know I hated it.

Re:I doubt that..

[Malcontent]

"I don't like corn, but if i had to buy it at the store every time I bought carrots, I would own a lot of corn, and you would never know I hated it."

And this is exactly why there are constraints on monopolies. Of course any constraint on a monopoly is purely theoretical at this moment given the current administration.

44 Page EULA

[Milo Fungus]

From the article:

Before you can proceed in the program guide setup you have to scroll through the 44 pages of the Terms of Service and select agree. Once again, this is done fairly quickly using the remote just by holding the down-arrow and then hitting ok. (Emphasis added)

Reading 44 pages is hardly a quick task, no matter if you have a remote control, scrolling mouse, or whatever. Unless it reads like 44 pages from a Dr. Seuss book. Then I wouldn't mind so much.

You may not reverse engineer on a train, you may not reverse engineer in the rain. You may not share files with a fox, you may not let files leave this box...

Re:44 Page EULA

[shepd]

>Once again, this is done fairly quickly using the remote just by holding the down-arrow and then hitting ok.

So, basically, they didn't read it at all. If the reviewers can't be bothered, will the users be?

For all we know, it might say in there that you need to give your first born to Bill G.

Re:44 Page EULA

[shyster]

You may not reverse engineer on a train, you may not reverse engineer in the rain. You may not share files with a fox, you may not let files leave this box...

It's not exactly Seussian, but it does rhyme =) (taken from the actual Win2K Pro EULA on my system):

Don't use on multiple PC's, we'll call the software Nazi's.
If this is an upgrade, you better have paid.
This covers an update, it's not up to fate.
You can sell your CD, if they agree to me.
Don't reverse engineer, or live in fear.
If we cancel at will, you throw it in a landfill.
We collect your details, and we read your emails.
Sun says don't trust java, because it will harm ya'.
There are no warranties, we will not hear your pleas.
It's protected by copyright, so don't try to fight.
You will be tried in Redmond, we will have a big lawyer fund.
You must be crazy, to read to the end of me.

More cliches

[M.C. Hampster]

We need to develop some sort of global cache list so we can add the following from the article:

Today's PCs on the other hand are infinitely more powerful than current set-top boxes...

Isn't this a bit of an exageration? Obviously, they can't be "infinately" more powerful, but are they even considerably more powerful? I'm not too familiar with the spec's on PVR's, but I would bet they aren't that weak.

Re:More cliches

[spacefrog]

The MPEG encoding/decoding process on PVR's is hardware-assisted, so in terms of raw CPU power, not much is really needed. TiVo boxes, for example, have fairly low-end PPC chips.

Re:More cliches

[Mike Hicks]

I seem to recall that the Tivo's processor is somewhere in the range of 50-150MHz. The video encoding/decoding is offloaded onto special-purpose hardware. This means it's very hard or impossible for you to play video/audio formats that aren't hard-wired into the system -- a restriction you don't really have when you've got a PC with a GHz or so of processing power.

Biggest downside of a PC from my perspective is the noise. I put together a MythTV box for my apartment, but had to go find some new fans to quiet the sucker down..

Re:More cliches

[geekoid]

"Isn't this a bit of an exageration? "

no, it's a lie.
unless your in marketing, then there are no lies, only sales numbers.

Please help us compete!

[fons]

We're trying to make a similar thing based on linux. (it's called DAVE/DINA and you can read all about that strange name -and more- over here).
I must admit, we were pretty surprised with this version of XP. It looks really cool (we haven't tried it though).

It made us realize we have to speed up our work on DAVE/DINA. So we're planning our first ISO-release this month.

It will include:
- Watching TV
- RECORDING TV (only europ i think)
- Playing/grabbing music
- Music Database
- Photo gallery
- playing/grabbing DVD
- playing DIVX

but a lot of work needs to be done. We hope to lure some contributors with this release.

But you can already start to help us now: Visit our website, and comment on our plans (so we know what we're doing right and what we're doing wrong), or make us a cool new logo

Re:Please help us compete!

[fons]

"apestaart" is dutch for "monkey tail", the tail of a monkey.

It's also the name of this sign: @

So in English @ = "at" and in dutch @ = "apestaart"

This is reflected in our logo.

Cable Boxes

[NetJunkie]

How do these and other open source projects handle things like cable boxes? The TiVo will change the box for me. I can't rely on a TV Tuner card to handle that since I need my digital cable box.

Does anyone make IR blasters that will talk to those boxes that can be made to work?

Re:Cable Boxes

[jthomas2]

Go to radio shack, buy an IR lead, stick it on your serial port between DTR & ground. Use Lirc http://www.lirc.org/ and download the ir remote database. Use rc to send remote commands.

It's actually pretty easy.

-Jay

Re:No so fast there

[Petronius]

I don't have time to read your post but I'm guessing it has the following flaws:
- bla bla bla
- bla bla bla
- I have an iPod
- bla bla bla
- Microsoft sucks!
- bla bla bla
Suckers!

Re:No so fast there

[ignipotentis]

First, don't bash anything untill you read about it and understand it.

Second, and yes, this is pricey, but if your looking for a media PC, this will do the trick, and you shouldn't have trouble hooking up your ipod or any other media device to it.

Alien Ware Media Center PC

Third, You didn't mention it but others did, this is extremely hardware limited, ATI can't even get on because their cards don't do all the encoding in hardware. You also must have a remote so the lazy people can operate this from their couch.

Finally, I know anytime MS is mentioned, it will get torn apart. And i know this has DRM in it, but it will only be months before that is broken. In all honesty, XP is alot better than their previous efforts, RIAA and MPAA ass kissing aside. So lets drop the nothing from MS will ever be good enough, because we all know that the majority of people that use Slashdot are browsing from IE.

Personally I now prefer the integrated solution

[Mantrid]

I recently acquired a satellite system (DSS) with the PVR built-in (see my journal if you want to know more). Basically it just hooked up the same as the standard receiver. I've been using it for not quite a month and I just can't see going through the hassle of a media centre PC anymore. (I was looking at setting up something like that before - and being in Canada, I would have the added problem of finding a PVR that supports local satellite or cable options Guide-wise).

Basically, having a set-up like this 'just works'. You press pause and TV is paused. You select the program you want to record out of the program guide or program search and it records it (you can choose to protect it, to prevent other recordings overwriting on a full HDD, and you can choose to start recording 1 minute early). You can go back and watch something that you recorded while it records something else. Every time you change the channel it begins buffering again automatically (up to 1 hour I think). It can hold 30 hours of programming. It can IR-Blast the VCR if needed also.

I'm a PVR addict. Now I'm sure you can accomplish all of this and more using a PC with WMCE or whatever, but it's nice to not have a computer hanging around the room or having to show my wife how to get everything going. Sure I can't share with other PCs and I don't think it can really perform every trick that PC software or a TiVo can right now, but it does have an upgradeable BIOS. It is not hooked up to the internet or the phone line (if I ever bother with PPV then I'll have to use a phone line). I can tell the unit not to upgrade its BIOS without asking.

Basically, a home theatre setup often borders on messy anyways - throwing a PC into the mix just further confuses things.

And I definitely don't need a MS solution - don't need a BSOD messing up my TV viewing!

Re:Personally I now prefer the integrated solution

[/dev/trash]

Can you save recorded shows as VCDs to be burnt to CD?

Re:Personally I now prefer the integrated solution

[Neil Watson]

From his journal:

the watch one show while you record another is a bit deceptive: you can't say, watch something on channel 100 and record something on channel 200 as one might be led to believe.

Man I'd be raising hell with them if I were you. All this digital TV they plug and they can't even duplicate the functions of ananlog TV and a VCR.

Is there any digital server that will alow you to tape a broadcast from one channel while watching a broadcast on another channel?

Re:Personally I now prefer the integrated solution

[Greedo]

Too bad you don't allow comments in your journal. I too have the BEV PVR and love it. Two comments:

- The interactive weather isn't just Canadian cities, it's international

- One of the great features in the BEV PVR, and missing from the MS box is the UHF remote, which means my PVR can be in my basement, away from my TV.

- The IR thing that made you shit your pants ... cool eh? You can use an IR extender like this one (I think one came with my PVR), or just put your PVR near the VCR. The IR signal it sends out is strong enough. Doesn't apply to me, since my PVR is in the basement.

- I didn't know the 5100 was discontinued ... where did you see that? I just got some mail from Bell promoting it.

Now ... if I could only figure out what that weird "expansion port" is on the back, maybe I could read the recorded shows off the PVR and archive them.

Re:Personally I now prefer the integrated solution

[Greedo]

This is a limitation of most digital TV (cable or satellite). The STB can only decode one channel at a time, so you can only do something with one live channel.

You can get double LMB dishes, that provide two cables from the dish to the STB. None of the Bell STBs support two inputs, but you can buy another decoder for the second line for ~$99. Then you can record one show on the PVR and watch another on the other STB.

(STB=set-top box)

Re:Personally I now prefer the integrated solution

[Mantrid]

Huh, i thought I had comments on - I'll have to look.

The 5100 is apparently no longer discontinued, weird eh? I have heard there is an 80GB version though.

Not sure about the expansion port either!

Re:Your absolutely correct

[Eric Damron]

"A generic Linux install..."

What ever that is...

I was almost thinking they might've won me over

[Miguelito]

Then I saw this:

Even with our reinstall, there have been cases where the Media Center application crashed, requiring a full system restart before functioning properly

I've got 2 Tivo's, both hacked, and neither has ever crashed or spontaneously rebooted on me (save one hang during first upgrade because I didn't disable write verify on the disks first.. my fault, I cut corners). There's no way in hell I'd trust a box that's not completely reliable to replace my trusty Tivos.

Ummm... But...

[xanadu-xtroot.com]

FTA:
"ATI's latest All-in-Wonder line comes extremely close; closer than any previous attempt, but ATI is still bound by the tragic flaw of a PC based PVR - the Windows interface."

This doesn't take a rocket scientist to add 2 and 2 in this case, does it?

Neat, Cool, So what.....

[FatRatBastard]

This kinda reminds me of the whole "new" tablet design. Yes the technology is great, but who the hell are going to buy them (en mass)?

TiVo (which I love, love, love) and ReplayTV aren't exactly setting the world on fire in terms of sales, so its not like there's a HUGE demand for these things. Also the price seems a hell of a lot higher than buying a functional computer and a TiVo seperately. How many people live in apartments so small they can't have both? College students are always bandied about for potential buyers, but my sense is that most would rather have a laptop. Plus, how many parents are going to plunk down that kind of money right after signing that check for school so their kids can record TV? I just don't think the cost would be justified (my dad would have laughed at me 'til he was blue in the face).

Nice tech, tiny market. MS better watch out. There only so many "these'll change the world" ideas that don't pan out that hardware companies are willing to subsidize.

Re:Neat, Cool, So what.....

[geekoid]

"Yes the technology is great, but who the hell are going to buy them "

I would. I would love to be able to afford about for of them, and a wireless connection.
That way, the other people in my house can use the system for small task they do often.
I dont want to stop playing so my wife can get a reciepe off the machine. There an "appplience' so it won't be another computer thing I have to maintian very often.

Do I really want this?

[Beebos]

Do I really want my PC recording The Simposons while I play Unreal Tournament 2003?

I don't think so! I have a 3.06 P4 with an ATI 9700 and its pretty much maxed out while playing UT 2003. I bet them same will be true with the upcoming Doom title.

I'd much rather have my Replay 4500s doing their recording thing while I'm doing my computing/gaming thing.

You can get two or three Replays for the price of a Media Center PC, I think. You can hook them up to your network and share programing between them, your PCs and friends on the net. And they won't steel CPU cycles from your PC.

In the mean time...

[Lendrick]

...you can purcase Windows XP Media Center Second Edition starting Febrary 1st, for the low low price of $149.95 plus tax.

Re:In the mean time...

[JebusIsLord]

Really? where did you hear that? I'm actually rather excited about it - sorry everyone. My other box is running linux from scratch, serious!

Need faster processors? Whatever...

[GusherJizmac]

An interesting quote from the article

"Whenever AMD or Intel release a new CPU, everyone asks the question what we need faster processors for? The most common response for that is "to enable future applications" and a couple of years ago, there was enough processing power in a cheap enough form to finally give the VCR a brain - the idea of a set-top Personal Video Recorder (PVR) was born."

"Although MCE is by far the best first attempt at a PVR we've seen from any company, it isn't without its very noticeable flaws; the most serious of which happens to be this issue of performance. On a 2.53GHz Pentium 4, CPU utilization hovers around 30 - 40% while simply watching TV; note that this is with a hardware MPEG-2 encoder card and a very fast Pentium 4 CPU. We tried performing our own clean MCE install on the setup, updated all of the drivers and walked away with nothing better. There are clearly some issues with MCE as it shouldn't require such a high speed CPU to perform simple MPEG-2 decoding and writing to the disk. The CPU utilization drops to below 20% if MCE is closed and it's just recording in the background, which isn't too bad but still higher than you'd expect for a hardware MPEG-2 encoding engine that isn't relying on the host CPU.

The Tivo uses a 75Mhz PowerPC, which was available many years ago and is a joke of a processor right now. It's also what enables Tivo to not cost $1000. The fact that this windows media center slows down noticable with a 2.xx Ghz P4 is embarassing. Tivo rarely exhibits any slowdown, and it's not only using a alledgely more inferior PowerPC processor, but one from several years ago running at 3% of the speed of this thing.

What a shameless MS plug

[ajs]

This article (not the Slashdot article, but the review referenced) is really going around itself to lap up the MS PR releases here. First off, it never once questions why you would want this thing in preference to a TiVo or Replay. It does bring up the "advantage" of PC-based PVRs. Apparently it's the ability to convert your stored shows to any format you like... of course, they then explain that MCE can't do that, but they expect that MS will add it soon!

They also skip right over any discussion of ease of use, setup, cabling, access to guide data, fees, etc. I'm assuming that the author simply read some releases, watched a couple of Simpsons episodes and then decided to write a review (mostly of the Simpsons, as it turns out).

Oh, and I'm assuming that the assertion that this will be WindowsXP/Pro + MCE is a joke. I can't imagine that MS won't lock all of the "server" features in this, just like they do with XP/Home.

Only works with 2 cards

[prisoner]

and that is crap. The ATI & nvidia cards aren't supported. This is too bad.

Re:New standards??

[nolife]

Yeah thats the same thing. Like the last one week about Pine being updated? That is Redhat's fault alright.
Comparing these is like apples to oranges.
People seem to forget that most Linux distibutions come with HUNDREDS of "third party" applications that you may or may not have installed. Redhat provides these emails based on your current system profile they have of your system. When is the last time MS put out an alert for an Eudora, PC Pine, Pegasys, or Norton Antivirus update that all run on Windows?

or you could try DAVE/DINA

[fons]

Dave/Dina is similar to MythTV

At the moment MythTV has beter TV-options, better layout and a better logo :-)

DaveDina has more AUDIO options, at the moment.

The ASF wrapper also currently prevents transcodin

[t0qer]

The ASF wrapper also currently prevents transcoding into other media formats, such as DiVX.

No it doesn't :)

Re:No so fast there

[Eric Damron]

"I don't have the time to read the article but I'm guessing it has several flaws:"
.
.
.

"Wagner LLC Consulting Co. - Getting it right the first time"

If you want to get it right the first time as your sig states, I would suggest _taking_ the time to read the article before commenting....

Just a suggestion

Re:No so fast there

[paganizer]

Hmm.
Mod +3 Vorpal

Nothing like cutting each page into 5 paragraph's

[SensitiveMale]

to raise the fucking hit counts and show more ads.

Any particular reason this story couldn't of been 5 to 8 pages at the most?

Re:New standards??

[Proc6]

I'm sick of these cheap shots at anything Microsoft, or anything "not" OpenSource I should say.

Yes, my RedHat box has a flashing ! every few days too. Programmers are human last time I checked, and humans come in all varying abilities and disciplines. Not all OpenSource projects are written by l33t ub3r cod3rs, and every closed source shop (like Microsoft) is not a bunch of community college flunkies.

I'll gaurantee you any decent sized company has a whole bunch of programmers just like the average slashdotter (or ARE the average slashdotter), that live to code, love what they do, create elegant routines and would seriously not appreciate anyone saying everything they do is weak, trojan-infested, closed-source satan code, just because they work for a business model that keeps proprietary development private.

Lay off our programmer bretheren.

Re:No so fast there

[dprice]

yes, this is pricey, but if your looking for a media PC, this will do the trick, and you shouldn't have trouble hooking up your ipod or any other media device to it. Alien Ware Media Center PC

That Alienware box looks suspiciously like the Shuttle barebone PCs which you can buy at newegg.com for less than $400. Do-it-yourselfers could save more than a few bucks making these into an equivalent media PC.

Re: linux troll?

[stratjakt]

>> The fact that you seem unable to grasp the basic notion that M$ servers have a reputation for needing constant reboots is sad (for you).

I grasp the 'notion of a reputation', but I also know that it doesn't relate to the real world.

Linux also has a reputation for poor hardware support and second rate performance when it comes to the video/gui arena.

Acclaim earned a reputation for making really shitty games back in the NES days. So what?

Comparing the latest linux build to NT 3.51 is getting really old.

My 7 year old analogy applies perfectly. She uses a TV as her primary display, and watches DVDs and a small library of cartoons in divx off my fileserver (which runs linux, btw, because that's what I find linux appropriate for) I find this much closer to the function of these machines than an ecommerce server.

And people pointing to Tux Racer as if it validates linux as an entertainment/gaming platform *is* a joke.

Re:MS wins again

[Eric Damron]

The "Linux and MacOS won't be able to compete with this." part was an unnecessary jab at Linux and MacOS.

Do Not Remove

[sfe_software]

This is a bit OT, but why did HP put a "Do Not Remove" cap over the on-board VGA connector? There are perfectly valid reasons to run multiple monitors (especially on a "Media PC"), and there doesn't seem to be any reason to cap the connector off...

Obviously the GeForce is a better card, but... why use a board with onboard video, just to cap it off? Seems like a hack to me; perhaps a driver conflict caused concern, so they disabled it in the BIOS and capped it off.. but it's very unprofessional IMO.

Just a nitpick I guess...

Re:Do Not Remove

[UnixRevolution]

I believe the question here is "why didn't they use a board that hasn't got onboard VGA in an effort to save money?", not "why can't i use both connectors at once?"

The answers for the latter question that have been put forth are very good. those for the former are nonexistant, so here goes.

PEOPLE ARE FUCKING STUPID!#(%&!#(*%&)!

i believe that should clear up any confusion.

Re:Need faster processors? Whatever...

[ilsie]

Tivo rarely exhibits any slowdown

You ever try to reorganize 34 season passes? It takes about 10 minutes.

Re:Need faster processors? Whatever...

[SensitiveMale]

I can tell you exactly why.

Tivo uses several DSPs to handle the audio and video.

MCE does everything through software which, in technical terms "sucks ass".

This is just another way ms shoots themselves in the foot by forcing everything through windows.

Re:I just had a vision of the future

[nicodaemos]

Okay I just had another vision -- man, perhaps I really do need more fiber in my diet. Whatever.

Anyway, imagine the power of controlling a media center pc. All kinds of information flowing through that one device would just be too tempting to attack and manipulate. Imagine rewriting email messages, rewording web pages or even altering news broadcasts to be more favorable to your corporation. How many people get most (if not all) of their news from the internet and tv? Talk about a serious chokepoint to control information dispersal.

Kinda scary if you ask me.

Re:Evidence?

[greechneb]

Bullshit? Read this: http://www.theregus.com/content/4/24611.html

Re:MS wins again

[Eric Damron]

What an intelligent person full of bright ideas. You sir are a real assssssset to the slashdot community!

Why do you need all this?

[Gothmolly]

Try checking out that big room outside the server room, you know, the one where the ceiling is sometimes blue, and sometimes black with little white lights, and the A/C sucks.

Re:Why do you need all this?

[NetJunkie]

I have a great life outside my tech gear. I don't think the things I mentioned were much. Just some of the Replay features along with HD support. My TV is HD. My digital cable does HD. My TiVo doesn't and it causes some problems since I had to set up my remote to switch back and forth inputs to make it all easy to use.

Re:Evidence?

[MisterFancypants]

The article is quite clear that local file searches do NOT send information back to Microsoft. They merely do a file update of some files the search program references, if needed. They do not send your file search information back to Microsoft. How many tinfoil hats do you have, Mr Paranoid man?

Re:Need faster processors? Whatever...

[GusherJizmac]

I don't really count that, because TiVo knows it will take a while and tells you. What the article was talking about was the UI slowing down at times w/out warning. While both do suck, I'd rather know that I need to wait and do all the waiting at one time, rather than wait on a slow interface....

Different context

[cyberformer]

Maybe the article is referring to capabilities, not processing speed. A PC can, in theory, perform an infinite number of different tasks. A PVR (like any other specialized device) is restricted to a few.

Re:Different context

[horza]

Maybe the article is referring to capabilities, not processing speed. A PC can, in theory, perform an infinite number of different tasks. A PVR (like any other specialized device) is restricted to a few.

All computers have a finite instruction set and finite memory in which to store information, therefore cannot in theory perform infinite number of tasks.

Phillip.

Strange modding here...

[ryman]

What the heck? Who are MSFTards who modded this guys post? Hmmm...Microsoft XP Media Center Edition...watching TV on your PC...Digital Rights Management...this guy's not trolling, he's got a valid (and very ontopic) concern here. If there's any justice, the mods will get metamoderated into oblivion.

But...

[labratuk]

you forgot to mention the best (IMHO) PVR software project,

MythTV!

Re:MS wins again

[swordboy]

So long, OS X and whatever media packages are available for Linux, it was nice knowing you.

ShowShifter.

It is the only PCTV software package available that does not 1) include spyware 2) include DRM or 3) require the use of a keyboard to gain *all* functionality. Although HDTV support isn't there yet, there are deinterlacing plug-ins available for progressive display of non-HDTV content.

If people would lobby them into Linux support, you could build your own Tivo for very little. And you get all of the benefits of open video format standards...

Re:The ASF wrapper also currently prevents transco

[Abcd1234]

Not to mention that MPlayer can play ASFs, and hence has no trouble a) transcoding them or b) outputting them so you can transcode them using other tools (like mjpegtools). I've done this myself to convert ASFs to VCD-compatible MPEG-1 streams.

Re:No but it's out for download

[Abcd1234]

Erm... last I checked, mplayer is perfectly capable of playing ASFs out (using the Windows DLLs)... perhaps you are referring to something over and above this? Additional DRM features that I haven't run into yet, perhaps?

Yikes! Huge file sizes!

[McSpew]

Any TiVo owner will immediately spot this little issue: namely, that 93GB of disk space equals 5 hours 8 minutes of record time at best quality. Even if the space available for PVR functions is 75% of 93GB (as implied in the screenshot), that's still about five hours for 70GB of disk space.

Maybe MCE's definition of "best" quality is dramatically higher than TiVo's, but TiVo can store about 9 hours at "best" quality on a 30GB HD. On a machine with 70GB of disk space, it would easily be able to record over 20 hours at best quality. Why can MCE only squeeze a quarter as much video onto the same amount of space?

Also, I find it ironic that MCE has such grievous hardware requirements. It requires a TV tuner card with hardware MPEG-2 encoding, yet still requires a really fast CPU, fast RAM and a fast, big hard drive. Admittedly, TiVo's aren't sharing their hardware with other apps (in most cases), but first-generation TiVos managed to squeak by with a 50MHz PowerPC and 4400RPM hard drives. Surely, MS can squeeze stutter-free performance out of moderately powerful CPUs and HDs, can't they?

The "Mom" test

[dprice]

Looking through the Media PC screenshots, it looks somewhat more complex to use than Tivo, which I love dearly. Unfortunately Tivo does not pass the "Mom" test, and the Media PC is even worse. The plethora of buttons on the Media PC remote also looks like it would not pass the Mom test.

Basically, if I sat my Mom in front of a device, and if she can figure out how to use it, it passes the Mom test. I think she represents the non-tech-savvy user which is the majority of the population. She is able to use email and web browsing on her Mac, and she can program her VCR, but I don't think she would have the patience to deal with programming a Tivo or Media PC. If it has too many buttons and menu screens, it fails the test.

I would be impressed if someone came out with a low cost and very intuitive PVR/multimedia device that could sell to the common man. The raw technology is there to make all kinds of feature-rich devices, but there needs to be some serious attention paid to the user interface and useability if the devices are to be successful.

Re:No so fast there

[Anonymous Custard]

... which you can buy at newegg.com [newegg.com] for less than $400. Do-it-yourselfers could save more than a few bucks making these into an equivalent media PC.

No they couldn't; at least, not until MS makes WinMCE available as a separate purchase. Currently you can get teh OS if it's pre-installed on an approved Media Center PC.

Re:Yikes! Huge file sizes!

[cayenne8]

The extra room on the drive is probably taken up by that 'nifty' little wrapper (.asf?) that MS is putting around the files...no telling what all is in that. And it seems to add a nice little bonus that you can't transcode it to another format (divx), nor play it with a a non-Windows Media format type player....

This product is a joke..

[kryptkpr]

From the review (important parts bolded):

The guide is easy to navigate through and scroll speed is quite fast. The one thing that is worth noting that even on the HP's default Pentium 4 2.53GHz, CPU utilization can reach very high levels while scrolling through the list. Sometimes scrolling through the guide can cause the TV encoding process to stutter which is definitely unfortunate as stuttering isn't nearly this common with set-top PVRs. The problem here seems to be an issue with prioritizing threads, as the TV encode/decode threads should take absolute priority over any other threads contending for CPU time - especially those required to scroll through the program guide. ....

The first time the guide starts up, resource usage also pikes which will sometimes cause the TV encoding process to stutter as well. What you may find yourself doing is making sure you don't start up the guide while you're recording anything important as the stutters will be recorded to disk.

So, a 2.53 Ghz P4 can't handle opening the guide and scrolling through it? I have to make sure I'm not recording anything important while using the guide? Can M$ possibly get any more inefficient? Don't forget, this is with HARDWARE MPEG2! I wondered at first why cards without hardware MPEG2 codecs weren't supported.. now I understand.

Re:I just had a vision of the future

[Planesdragon]

Talk about a serious chokepoint to control information dispersal.

Not really. Any sizeable alteration of news is news--and thus, the hypothetical Media-Monopoly would get perhaps a day before it was shut down. And as for a cracking standpoint--well, you'd have to get each box individually, which won't be any easier than it is today.

It's much cheaper, btw, to simply manage misinformation with a skilled marketer and an on-staff lawyer. Legal, too.

Re:No so fast there

[Keith Russell]

Wow. Where do I start? Oh, yeah:

I don't have the time to read the article but I'm guessing it has several flaws:

Not exactly striking from a position of strength, are you?

2) I don't care for the activation aspect and think that most users will rebel against it. It's one thing to be forced to activate a PC OS, but an entertainment OS???? No thanks

XP's WPA is rotten just on principle. But I don't see why MCE would be exempt. Home and Pro can do everything MCE does, with the right kit. All MCE does is put a shiny face on it all.

1) You are limited by the fact that this thing is built on legacy hardware, by the time it hits the stores you would be able to build one with better performance and much better specs.

What? Take a current, standard issue Fiorina-Capellas Presario, add a tuner card, IR remote, and memory card reader, and wrap it in a lacquer finish case, and suddenly it's "legacy hardware"? You make it sound like it's a 286 with a VLB graphics card. And it already has hit the stores. I started seeing them at my local Best Buy in November.

5) Where is the USB2?? serial ATA66?? WiFi??? 802.11b??? Bluetooth??? I need to plug my other musica devices (iPod anyone) into this and make them work, lacking these things just don't cut it.

How could a 286 support all that? :-) SerialATA is just starting to penetrate the high end of the market, so I'm not surprised by it's omission on the HP. Besides, putting hard to find hard drives in a consumer grade PC isn't very user friendly. Bluetooth, cool as it is, doesn't have an obvious application in a Media Center PC except wireless keyboards and mice. You can get those now without Bluetooth, so what's the point? A best-case 11 Mbps won't give users a good impression of 802.11b. I don't think WiFi will be truly useful on a media center PC until 802.11g hits the mainstream. And HP's models include both USB 2.0 and IEEE 1394, so your iPod will work just fine.

3) The sound on this is going to be sub-optimal simply due to the limited bus speeds used by their analog to digital decoder.

Buzzword Bingo! You have no idea what sound card it is, let alone how it works. You're trying to BS the wrong crowd, buddy. Oh, for the record, it's a Creative Sound Blaster Audigy in the HP. They even have a bundle that includes a set of Klipsch ProMedia 5.1 speakers.

4) As the article porbably states the price will be the major stumbling point, these are going to have to meet the typical "Best Buy" buyers price point and at their outrageous starting point they are way way over the top

Ah, now for the coup de grace. It's too expensive to begin with, but the feature list is missing a whole bunch of esoteric bullet points! Price is relative to an individual's financial situation, so I'll just post the prices, and leave you to determine their worth. An entry level HP is $1349. The loaded model, with higher-spec core components and (expensive) Klipsch speakers, is $1999. Sony's nearest match is the the Vaio RZ, which uses their home-brewed GigaPocket software instead of XP MCE, and includes a DVD burner on all models. It starts at $1599. (Note: all prices are from hp.com and sonystyle.com, which were both advertising sale and/or rebate pricing. Display not inlcuded.)

Wagner LLC Consulting Co. - Getting it right the first time

Let's see how many sarcastic uses of the phrase "ringing endorsement" this generates. Hey, is Bernie Schiffman hiring?

GC

[Fadekun]

What's the deal with recording shows? Don't people just...remember anymore?

Tivo's revised service agreement.

[ChaosDiscord]

This is Tivo's new service agreement in PDF, and here is Google's copy of Tivo's service agreement converted to HTML.

Unfortunately I'm unable to dig up the agreement I originally signed on for to comparision, but the following are changes from the previous agreement:

2. The TiVo Service. The basic TiVo service consists of program guide information and the following features: ... Season Pass... WishList... Smart Recording... TiVo Suggestions... Parental Controls.

This is fairly subtle, but the previous agreement basically just said that service consisted of program guide information. Nothing else. The other features were implicitly part of the unit you purchased. Sure, the features weren't terribly useful without guide information, but if you could find another way to provide guide data those feature would work. Now they're claiming that if you fail to pay you have no rights at all these features which are entirely managed within the unit.

3. Changes to Your TiVo Service. TiVo may, at its discretion and from time to time change, add or remove features and functionality of the TiVo Service or the TiVo DVR (when the TiVo DVR access TiVo's servers) without notice. If you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo Service, you may immediately cancel your subscription as provided in section 13 ("Termination of Service").

Given the helpful definitions of features in the previous section, TiVo is clearly reserving the right to remove Season Passes, WishList, Smart Recording, TiVo Suggestions, Parental Controls and other functionality. Sure, it seems unlikely that they'll take such features away, but why are they asking for the right to? Those are specifically the features they advertised the Tivo as having, and the reason I bought mine.

But I can terminate the service if I don't like it? Given the new changes, my Tivo effectively becomes a giant paperweight. And (checking Section 13), my lifetime subscription that I paid for before this change will not be refunded in any way, so I'm especially S.O.L..

10. Using the TiVo Service. ... you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the TiVo DVR.

The rest of the section is pretty reasonable, but this little clause is unreasonable. I purchased my Tivo specifically because they were very open and had a "You void your warrantee, and we won't support you, but feel free to hack on your Tivo" policy. I wanted to support that behavior. This effectively reverses the decision. No more hard drive expansion hacks. To heck with that.

11. Advertising and Promotions. ... In order to send such content, you agree that Tivo may tune your Tivo DVR to a particular channel at a particular time.

In practice it looks like they only use this to record the silly promos I see on my main menu. That I don't mind. What I do mind is that this implies that they can preempt my normal recording to record their ads. That I object to. I doubt they ever will preempt my programming, but why not state as much in the policy?

12. Definition of Product Lifetime Subscription. ... Of course, hardware products don't last forever and their lifespan will vary.

When I purchased a lifetime subscription, I understood that the lifetime in question was for the unit, not me. I figured it just meant that if the system failed I'd need to pay to get it repaired. This working left me fearing that they may claim that once a Tivo experiences any failure that they can claim that its lifetime is over and cancel the service. Since my Tivo actually experienced a modem failure nine months into its life, this seems like a real risk to me. (On a related note, it looks like Tivo modems are fragile, thus products like this one. Get your Tivo on a phone line surge supressor!)

I brought up all of these complaints to Tivo support when I became aware of them. I got a form letter back that failed to address the issues I brought up. Feh.

Re:Tivo's revised service agreement.

[radish]

Thanks for that, it certainly does look a little worrying. One thing I can say about hardware lifespan is there are a large number of people I know of here in the UK who have had lifetime sub boxes die out of warranty. In all cases, provided they pay a fixed fee (around $150) for repair/replacement then the lifetime sub is transferred.

Why is this a new version of XP, not just an app?

[SilentTristero]

This seems like typical MS bundling. They have a nice PVR app and maybe a codec. Instead of releasing it as the "MS PVR" app or an add-on to Windows Media Player, like anyone else would, they *bundle it into the OS*. WTF? This is exactly what they got reamed for doing with IE, media player, WMA, DRM codecs, etc. etc. And they're still doing the same thing! (Yeah, that DoJ slap on the wrist really hurt...)

Don't fall for this marketing crap. Make them release it as a simple app. I don't care if it will only install if you have the XYZ tuner card or whatever, but it is NOT a new version of the OS! It is NOT "Windows MCE" whatever they tell you! It's just Windows XP with a simple (and quite nice, from what I can tell) full-screen PVR app.

Once they succeed in convincing everyone that the PVR app is "part of the OS" the market for 3rd party PVR apps will dry up, because of course who would pay money for something that comes for free? And then they can cripple it any way they want in future versions (no recording pay-per-view, no skipping commercials, no transcoding, etc.)

Don't buy this line. Anand is starting to behave like a PR flack; it's too bad. Think for yourselves, people! There are a few PVR Windows apps out there, and some of them are getting quite decent. Vote with your wallets.

-- Tristero

It had begun...

[Eric_Cartman_South_P]

http://www.msnbc.com

Re:New standards??

[GutBomb]

he did not say "isn't that like redhat" he said that's like Linux. and he was right. he was not saying that it is redhat's dity to fix the problems. What he is saying is that linux is just as buggy as windows, 3rd party or no, linux is not immune to bugs.

Re:OEMs only

[shyster]

All I'm really asking for is a theme/mode/setting for regular Windows installs to be workable on a Lo-res device (Not just TV, but open it up to cheap LCD displays for 'embedded' systems and whatnot).

All depends on what you want to do with your PC on your TV. As far as general desktop goodness goes, give Talisman or a similar shell replacement (Object Desktop has a nice one as well) a try. They'll allow you to create your own theme with as large of buttons as your heart desires. Of course, apps are another issue all together...it's dependent on the app. Throwiing a skin together in WinAmp3 shouldn't be too difficult though, and now that it plays video files too, you may have a winner there. Gaming at 640x480 on a TV has never been a problem for me, so I think you're covered there too. To min/max/close apps that aren't skinnable, try using the keyboard combos instead of manipulating the mouse pointer.

Maybe some day developers will start using standard widgets and fonts and then you'll actually be able to control them, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Maybe not a search, but how about these SIXTEEN???

[microbob]

This should scare the shit out of any XP user.

Here is a (probably incomplete) list of ways Windows XP tries to connect each user's computer to Microsoft's computers, or expects to be allowed through the user's software firewall:

1. Application Layer Gateway Service (Requires server rights.)
2. Fax Service
3. File Signature Verification
4. Generic Host Process for Win32 Services (Requires server rights.)
5. Microsoft Direct Play Voice Test
6. Microsoft Help and Support Center
7. Microsoft Help Center Hosting Server (Wants server rights.)
8. Microsoft Management Console
9. Microsoft Media Player (Tells Microsoft the music and videos you like. See the February 20, 2002 Security Focus article Why is Microsoft watching us watch DVD movies? [securityfocus.com].)
10. Microsoft Network Availability Test
11. Microsoft Volume Shadow Copy Service
12. Microsoft Windows Media Configuration Utility (Setup_wm.exe, sometimes runs when you use Windows Media Player.)
13. MS DTC Console program
14. Run DLL as an app (There is no indication about which DLL or which function in the DLL.)
15. Services and Controller app
16. Time Service, sets the time on your computer from Microsoft's computer. (This can be changed to get the time from another time server.)

That and more goodies on http://www.hevanet.com/

Re:Truly, these are the end times

[Wee]

Yeah, Todd's told me all about your TiVo predilection. He says that you're pretty much The Man when it comes to TiVo stuff. And I've caught myself trying to fast forward as well. It's scary.

I don't know if I mentioned this, but I also got an old series 1 TiVo (my brother bought one when they first came out). The HDD is pretty much toast, and I wanna hack it up. Put two really large drives in it, etc. I need to get hat ethernet deal those dudes sell. I'll probably be bugging you at some point... :-)

-B

Re:MS wins again

[Eric Damron]

It was flamebait because you engaged in mindless name calling. For example if I called you a dickless scum sucking maggot this post would probably be modded down as flamebait. But I won't do that.

I always try to avoid stating the obvious.

Re:Why is this a new version of XP, not just an ap

[Billly Gates]

You mean drm approved OS?

Did you know to get a soundcard WIndowXP certified, it needs to include drm support?

Don't believe me? Why does XP use %25 of the cpu usage for doing any sound from Media player yet it does not do so when playing a game? Its because the ms media player's drm uses an encryption layer to please the RIAA so you can not tap and record any tune that you are listening to. Its mainly there for the advertisments on the defualt pop up screen. I guess hollywood is diluted enough to think that someone might record the demo and upload it to kazaa and throw the whole into communism as a result. I read it here on slashdot.

I believe ms wants to knock apple out of the multimedia market by making sure only WIndows pc's can be drm proctected while apple leaves copyrighted works as unprotected! If you go to apple's quicktime website you will see a whole bunch of movie previews. Microsoft is using the drm pitch to make all the big hollywood studio's sign into exclusive wmv and wma contracts for there demo's as well as space for the default opening page for the media player so quicktime and anything non Windows is no longer relavant in the digital age. Scary as hell.

Re:Need faster processors? Whatever...

[sunspot42]

>MCE does everything through software which,
>in technical terms "sucks ass".

RTFA. Microsoft specifically requires MCE PCs to come with a dedicated MPEG encoder hardware. It is not "doing everything through software". In fact, according to the article ATI and nVidia are having fits precisely because of the outrageous hardware requirements Microsoft has slapped on these systems.

Sounds to me like yet another case of crappy, bloated code from Microsoft. What a surprise. Would never have seen that one coming.

Coming soon...

[m00nun1t]

...is Lindows LP Ledia Lenter Ledition.

WinDVD and MCE

[Shaheen]

The article points out that WinDVD 3.0 is able to play the ASF files encoded by Media Center Edition. The reason this is true is that WinDVD looks for the codecs installed on your system when it runs into a format it does not have native support for. This is evident when playing DivX files in WinDVD. I find it hard to believe that Anandtech wouldn't realize this simple fact in its reporting.

Re:Evidence?

[Vicegrip]

Actually, another example of XP dialing home without asking for permission happened to me with a digital camera. The first time I plugged it in, zone alarm immeadiately posted a warning that a process was attempting to connect to an IP I didn't recognize (I then resolved it to a MS Windows Update site... I could dig up the ip again if somebody wants it).

Anyways, it downloaded the appropriate driver for the Fuji f401 but I was extremely perplexed about why the OS didn't ask for permission first or even notify that this was happening. I would have missed it without Zone Alarm notifying me of it.

That whole OS leaves with me all kinds of queasy feelings about what it does or doesn't do on the net behind my back.

Aren't you breaking the law?

[Jens]

Well, so you are denying Microsoft the right to modify their OS on your computer as they wish (they claim they have the right in the EULA). So your Microsoft licence is void, ie. you are using an illegal copy.

Which is probably exactly what you'll hear when you complain to Microsoft. Which is also why law firms and insurances are dropping Windows XP like a hot potato - their customer data is on the computer and NOBODY has a right to view it, not even Microsoft.

Go figure.

Re:Evidence?

[Alsee]

The article is quite clear that local file searches do NOT send information back to Microsoft.

True, but Microsoft can change that at will, and the article makes it abundantly clear that it DOES send info back when you do any non-local search.

It's none of Microsoft's freaking bussiness wheather I search for "AIDS treatments", "chicks-with-dicks", or "plastic explosives".

Microsoft tags your machine with ID code, and it tags almost everything you do with a GUID - globally unique ID code - that is linked to the machine code. This has even bitten Microsoft in the ass a few times - every document contains the GUID and some files have been traced back to a specific Microsoft employee in some very embarrasing cases.

Search Assistant connects back to Microsoft servers because THEY want it to, NOT because you want it to. Microsoft stopped designing "features" for the customers benefit and started designing them for their own benefit a long time ago. The only reason they get away with it is because of their monopoly market position. If there was any serious competition people simply wouldn't buy products with "features" like DRM, SAP, and privacy invasion.

-

Re:Maybe not 'file' searches, but for sure 'intern

[Ilgaz]

Neither, in fact nobody.

Google's use of Linux doesn't make me trust more to them. They are just a commercial company. Not heroic "angels". Wake up already!

Limewire is opensource now with GPL but their commercial installer installs the evil TopMoxie with the client which I believe was coded by Limewire founders themselves.

They having "GPL" label doesn't make them fully trustable. It works for Google too.