Nethack 3.4.1 Released

fatquack writes "Almost a day ago the DevTeam wrote: The NetHack DevTeam is pleased to announce the release of NetHack 3.4.1. NetHack 3.4 is an enhancement to the dungeon exploration game NetHack. It is a distant descendent of Rogue and Hack, and a direct descendent of NetHack 3.3. Get your copy at nethack.org now! (and it fixes the boulder/landmine bug)."

Comments

Dying Bug

[Overand]

The question is, does this release fix the "DAMN this game is IMPOSSIBLE!!" bug, or the "Holy crap, I keep dying for no reason." Bug?

Re:Dying Bug

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard

Re:Dying Bug

[the_mind_]

Do what i used to do:
save the game and copied the save file to a safe place.
When i died i simply moved the copy back.

cheating? sure.
but it makes it easier for us beginners.

Re:Dying Bug

[kubla2000]

There are many, many, many ways of cheating at nethack. But why in the arse would you do it? If you want to make it easy, go into explorer mode.

Re:Dying Bug

[ThundaGaiden]

I had the same problem between chair and keyboard
but it wasn't the dying bug , it was the damn
installation bug.

I'm less noobie now on linux and thanks to this
post , I'm going to try install it again :)

Re:Dying Bug

[Anonymous Coward]

how to cheat at nethack: disassemble the code and mess with it's assembly.

Re:Dying Bug

[farnsaw]

User Headspace and Timing Error

Say this one quickly and assuredly and they will never get it.

Re:Dying Bug

[ramzak2k]

the mouse you mean ? He told me he checked it.

Re:Dying Bug

[echucker]

Part of the reason I play Angband instead. Constantly dying from starvation compliments of Nethack's RNG was too damned frustrating.

Angband's home page can be found here, but for some reason ther's currently just a placeholder up.

Re:Dying Bug

[peter]

disassemble! Are you some kind of masochist? I just read the source when I'm playing. (I like thinking about programming and design as much as just playing, so I'm consciously doing this to have more fun, not just because it makes it easier.) When "You sense a faint wave of psychic energy", you can just grep -r for it in /usr/local/src/nethack/src, and find out that there's a mind flayer on the level.

BTW, the nethack source is beautiful. Normally, C code that has to deal with lots of text looks really bad because it can't trust the string to fit in a buffer, etc. Nethack's UI paradigm seems to work really well with C, and the availalbe C library functions. I love some of the global variable names; There's code like
if (u.have.amulet ) {
Stuff if you have the Amulet of Yendor
}

The other great thing about reading the source code is that you can be entertained by the messages that would be printed if you did certain things, without actually having to spend a lot of time playing to do them. Some of them are corner cases that you might not think of doing. (Read the code for dealing with getting seduced by succubi/incubi. Best message printed by nethack: You sit on the sink. You feel very attracted to the incubus ... :)

Re:Dying Bug

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. The angband home page is here:

www.thangorodrim.net

The page you linked to is that of the old maintainer, who hasn't coded on the game for a few years now.

Re:Dying Bug

[LastToKnow]

I died a lot of starvation too, before I realized that you could save yourself by praying once you became Weak from hunger. My problem is that often I breeze right by Weak and into Fainting without realizing it until mosters jump halfway across the level and kill me instantly.

Re:Dying Bug

[namespan]

I believe that's a feature.

Re:Dying Bug

[yog]

Thanks for that tip. I hate dying of starvation. I like to eat monsters but usually by the time I'm weak from hunger, they're either all gone or I can't lift my weapon to kill'em.

Life's hard, ain't it.

Re:Dying Bug

[bobwoodard]

That's referred to as the 1D10T error, if I remember correctly.

Re:Dying Bug

[CanadaDave]

You can't use the "dot" in C, only C++. You have to dereference the pointers manually.

Re:Dying Bug

[wishus]

You can't use the "dot" in C, only C++. You have to dereference the pointers manually.

Wait until later in the semester when they teach you about structs.

Re:Dying Bug

[SquadBoy]

apt-get install nethack

What could be easier?

Those who say installing software on Linux is hard are simply using the wrong distro. :)

Re:Dying Bug

[DNS-and-BIND]

You're completing the levels too slowly. If you move reasonably fast and eat every non-toxic monster you come across, you should be fine. Dying from starvation is a problem for newbies.

At least Nethack can stack more than one item on a space. Also it doesn't have that slot machine/pachinko machine appeal that is Angband's main feature.

Re:Dying Bug

[starling]

emerge nethack

A good 40% easier.

Re:Dying Bug

[Overt Coward]

Personally, I hate the "so which alighnment is Phath and which one is Thoth?" bug that caused me to accidentally "escape from the dungeon in celestial disgrace" rather than ascending for the one and only time I survived that far... (died two other times on the Astral Plane)

Re:Dying Bug

[SquadBoy]

This is starting to get way off topic but I have recently been very impressed with Geento and am thinking about putting it on any new boxes I build. But yes the same idea. :)

Re:Dying Bug

[Anonymous Coward]

Just so ya know, nobody modded it +2. He has a Karma Bonus +1 for having many insightful comments in the past. (Sort of like how you seem to have a -2 "bonus" for some reason)

Re:Dying Bug

[starling]

Yep, way OT, but who cares this far down the thread. Gentoo's nice, but to get the full benefit you need broadband and a reasonably quick machine (those KDE compiles take ages). Being on the bleeding edge can be fun though :)

Re:Dying Bug

[jericho4.0]

Eat everything you can, but only when you're hungry or almost hungy (try to avoid becoming full, it'll improve your cons).

When you find an icebox, it'll usually be full of edibles, but if it's not, spend some time filling it, and remember where it is.

Wearing rings or amulets increases how fast you get hungry, only wear them when needed.

As a last resort, (if you can't pray) you can polymorph yourself into xsomething that doesn't need food (gargoyle) of something that can eat rock (rock mole).

I know all this, but I was playing nethack last night, probably right when this was posted, and I starved, on level 8, on a square with a food ration on it. Ahh, the irony.

Re:Dying Bug

[Jimmy_B]

The question is, does this release fix the "DAMN this game is IMPOSSIBLE!!" bug, or the "Holy crap, I keep dying for no reason." Bug?

Actually, it does. NetHack 3.4.0 was much harder than 3.3.1 because it made an AI change which allows spellcasting monsters to cast spells when not in melee range, causing priests (especially at the minetown altar) to go from pushover to deadly, with their insect-summoning, and all monsters which cast the Summon Nasties spell (titans, * liches, most demons, and Rodney) suddenly became absurdly dangerous, because they could summon other summoners. 3.4.1 fixes both of these, making the late-game as easy (in four ascenscions, I never lost a character past the castle) as it was in 3.3.1.

Re:Dying Bug

[NordicMachine]

The question is, does this release fix the "DAMN this game is IMPOSSIBLE!!" bug, or the "Holy crap, I keep dying for no reason." Bug? This is almost a good point actually. A friend of mine sat down to play nethack. First step they took, their pet got squished by a falling rock. New game. First step they took, a poison dart shot out from the wall and killed them. As funny as it is, in a way, to walk into a dungeon and suddenly you're dead for no reason, it can be more than a little frustrating, and it's hard to get newbies hooked on the game when they're just getting to the 'Hey, this is neat' and suddenly they're dead through no fault of their own. --Dan

Re:Dying Bug

[CanadaDave]

Ooops, I forgot about structs. It's been a long time since I've used structs. Last time I used a struct was back when I was doing some OO C for a TCP/IP stack. It was nasty stuff.

Re:Dying Bug

[mcjulio]

Hunger's really only a problem in the beginning-game, in my experience. There's enough edible corpses around that you can generally stay pretty fat and sassy further down.

Re:Dying Bug

[Bodrius]

Nasty stuff? I assume you mean doing OO C for a TCP/IP stack.

Of the many things I consider nasty of C, struct is most definitely not one of them.

And I'm a Java OO-hype weenie that thinks everything in a project has to apply at least one Pattern and the Javadoc has to cite at least a book by the GoF or Fowler.

Re:Dying Bug

[Anonymous Coward]

^X is your friend.

Re:Dying Bug

[Anonymous Coward]

Or try distcc with Gentoo to make it faster. Ah, building Gnome on a laptop...

Re:Dying Bug

[AutumnLeaf]

"At least Nethack can stack more than one item on a space. Also it doesn't have that slot machine/pachinko machine appeal that is Angband's main feature."

Could you speak more to that second point please? As a longtime fan of Angband (never finished it though) I'm interested in what causes you to make that remark. (I'm not offended. Just curious). :)

Re:Dying Bug

[DNS-and-BIND]

Whats in the shops? Recall/wait/recall again, repeat 10 times. Woo, a whip of fire in the weapon shop! Whats Farmer Maggot going to drop this time? Who knows? Lets kill him and find out! Make sure and kill him in an open area so he doesnt drop his item in a building.

Re:Dying Bug

[billstewart]

Remember that praying too soon after the last time, or praying when your god is not happy with you, will not get your hunger fixed and will often annoy your god further. So keep track of when you pray.

NetHack is cool because you can play it at work

[Make]

NetHack is cool because you can play it at work... nobody will notice you're playing a game, it just looks like ascii/binary garbage.. :)

Re:NetHack is cool because you can play it at work

[arivanov]

That is if your PHB and BOFH are lame. If they themselves have died a number of times past level 20 - I doubt it.

Re:NetHack is cool because you can play it at work

[tunah]

PHB: What's that you're doing? Me: Err... I'm hexediting the new project, just working out a couple of bugs. Me: There's one! PHB: Nice work! I should give you a raise! Me: How 'bout an office with a door? PHB: No, people play games if I can't see them working. Me: I guess that's a good point. I should get back to my work...

Re:NetHack is cool because you can play it at work

[armb]

> NetHack is cool because you can play it at work... nobody will notice you're playing a game

Not true if everyone else plays too. After I got the amulet out once I decided it was taking up too much time and I really had to stop. Which was a good thing, as my boss had decided the same thing, and my having already stopped when he brought it up was a good thing.

In the 15 years or so since then I've thought new releases looked cool, but even more time consuming, so resisted playing them.

Re:NetHack is cool because you can play it at work

[jabapi]

So true.

Boss: "What are you doing, anyway?"
Me: "Am trying to get rid of all those annoying grid bugs we have in our system. Now please, leave me alone, will you?"

Re:NetHack is cool because you can play it at work

[TopShelf]

And best of all, no network traffic to arouse suspicion. This is a VERY happy day!

Re:NetHack is cool because you can play it at work

[TopShelf]

And even better, there's now a Windows CE port. I think a bathroom break is coming on...

Ulch.

[Mr. Flibble]

That download was slashdotted.

You feel deathly ill.

(Improperly formatted because of lameness filter)

Re:Ulch.

[pcbob]

Come on, try to hack my 31337 firewall[127.0.0.1]!

haha, the joke's on you, i just deleted all of your fil

Re:Ulch.

[slavemowgli]

You feel deathly ill.

Shouldn't that be "deathly sick"? :) (just some minor nitpicking)

Re:Ulch.

[Mr. Flibble]

Shouldn't that be "deathly sick"? :) (just some minor nitpicking)

Yeah, I had sick in there, and a bunch of periods too. Just like nethack, but the lameness filter tripped. Strangely, when I changed "sick" to "ill" it accepted it.

Go figure.

Re:Ulch.

[slavemowgli]

*nods* Interesting, but maybe that was because of the periods - I don't think nethack does have these (although I could be wrong; it's been a while since I last got sick). ;)

Noooooo!

[Anonymous Coward]

I was planning to graduate in a couple of years!

Wow, simultaneous worldwide release.

[luggy]

Infogrames (UK) could learn a thing or two from these people.

They had a simultaneous world release for Master of Orion 3, er, except for the UK, which gets it 10 days later.

You are lost...

[philovivero]

You are lost in a twisty maze of Hack and Rogue versions, all the same. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

Re:You are lost...

[philovivero]

Before I get my head bitten off by the literalists, I know this is not from Nethack. Geeez. Let an old man have his fun.

Re:You are lost...

[troc]

You said I was going to be eaten by a grue....

Do the literalists bite the heads off so the grues can get to work?

man these dungeon games are more complex than I thought, symbiotic relationships between monsters - whatever next?

You are in a maze of .......
>w
You go West (where the air is sweet etc)
In the dark you have your head bitten off by a literalist. The grues feast on your remains. The literalists all go to a cocktail evening.
Yor are dead. Get over it.

Troc

Re:You are lost...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's time you wrote an adventure game.

Re:I smell a...

[Anonymous Coward]

it is spelled Wumpus, you fool! WUMPUS! no A!

To download or not to download...

[Max Romantschuk]

I figured I won't donwload Nethack. Why? Because I know how damn good it is and I know I'll be lost forever if I start playing it for real.

For the ones who don't know what Nethack is: The GameSpy Hall of Fame has a really good piece on Nethack.

Re:To download or not to download...

[po8]

From the GameSpy article referenced in the parent: Rogue was open source, of course, meaning anyone who loved the game could open it up and start tweaking it.

Which it wasn't, IIRC. There were various clones, but the original Rogue was free but licensed binary, right?

Re:To download or not to download...

[mik]

Exactly - Hack (and, so, nethack) exists solely because rogue was binary-only and unstable on the target machine (PDP11/70 running system 7) with compatability libraries... the author flatly refused requests to give out the source so we could fix it, so Jay wrote hack. Typical Free software story, albeit one of the earliest ones I know of.

Net...hack?

[Anonymous Coward]

Net...hack? Rogue? Sounds suspicious to me. How can I get in touch with John Ashcroft?

Re:Net...hack?

[Glock27]

How can I get in touch with John Ashcroft?

Apparently, just go to one of the various Internet smoke shops he shut down yesterday. You'll be redirected to the DEA (or at least that was the plan) and warned that your identity is being tracked, and that you might be prosecuted. Don't worry, I only linked an article about the whole thing above.

I'm sure glad my tax money is going to such critical uses in these trying times. Give me a break.

Re:Net...hack?

[flonker]

If anyone is curious, after a bit of googling, I found http://www.omnilounge.com/.

By application of the United States Drug Enforcement Administration, the website you are attempting to visit has been restrained by the United States District Court for the Western District of Pennsylvania pursuant to Title 21, United States Code, Section 853(e)(1)(A).

Re:Net...hack?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just click on the dot of the "J" in the source to get to the full site.

Nethack rules!

[Anonymous Coward]

I started playing this game a week ago again and now it got an update .. haven't noticed any boulder / landmine bugs though.

But anyway, I can't think of any other game that I have played on and off over the period of 10 years.

Re:Nethack rules!

[Fizzl]

BatMud

Re:Nethack rules!

[42forty-two42]

I started playing this game a week ago again and now it got an update .. haven't noticed any boulder / landmine bugs though.

You got lucky. In 3.4.0, pushing a boulder onto a land mine will destroy your game. The new version is save/bones compatible, so upgrade now.

Don't worry--There are GUIs

[SexyTr0llGal]

I first tried playing Nethack a few years ago, and I couldn't stand it. I'm a huge fan of RPGs and MUDs, but I just couldn't get the whole nethack thing. For those of you who don't like it either, try Falcon's Eye (or another Nethack GUI--there's many!)

Re:Don't worry--There are GUIs

[Moloch666]

Wow, nice graphics. If nethack is as good as everyone says, with this GUI, may be damn fun.

W00t

[Anonymous Coward]

I know that this release is going to push my Radeon 8500 hard.

Misleading title

[ascii]

I know I might sound completely moronic when I say this, but I think the title 'NetHack' is almost, but not quite, entirely misleading to the actual theme of the game.

I've stumpled upon NetHack here and there and always thought it to be something along the lines of the ancient Neuromancer Amiga game that I loved so much.

Why don't they call it something like "[insert D&D'ish sounding name]: The legacy of [insert other D&D'ish sounding name]

Example:
Crangrall: the legacy of Wanhall
Forthrall: the legacy of Krilltorr

You can all troll me or flame me to pieces now for not getting it.

Re:Misleading title

[WWWWolf]

I know I might sound completely moronic when I say this, but I think the title 'NetHack' is almost, but not quite, entirely misleading to the actual theme of the game.

Yeah. First there was 'Hack', which was a logical name for a game about hacking monsters to pieces. Then they added a prefix that had nothing to do with the theme of the game, but rather a technicality - hey, it's a game that's developed in the 'Net'. The result is logical in its own way, but completely misleading to those who don't know this.

- WWWWolf, who should get back to the Usenet any week now

Re:Misleading title

[zero_offset]

Actually, wasn't the original title "Hack N Slash", then it got shortened to "Hack"? I think I read that somewhere back when I stumbled across some old version on a BBS in the 80's...

Re:Misleading title

[CrosseyedPainless]

How about "Nethack: By Grabthar's Hammer, You Shall Be Avenged!" ?

Re:Misleading title

[zatz]

What a savings!

Re:Misleading title

[Max Romantschuk]

I might be wrong on this, but as far as I know the name Nethack comes from the fact that it is a version of Hack which was hacked upon over the net.

This was way before "hackers" (crakers) ever became an issue on the Internet. I guess the name just stuck.

It is also quite possible I'm horribly misinformed ;)

Re:Misleading title

[Anonymous Coward]

Many people make this mistake. People see two syllables that form unrelated words and simply decide to pronounce it NET-HACK, when those of us who have been playing it for years know that it is, in fact, NETH-ACK, a far more D&D-ish name, i'm sure you would agree. It was named after the ancient eunuch sorcerer Nethack The Great, Controller Of Daemons. Sheesh, kids these days...

Re:Misleading title

[cgreuter]

I know I might sound completely moronic when I say this, but I think the title 'NetHack' is almost, but not quite, entirely misleading to the actual theme of the game.

That's just part of Nethack's charm.

Back when I was a quasi-regular in rec.games.roguelike.nethack, we'd get about one confused skr1pt k1dd13 per week looking for cr4kz and w4r3z. My absolute favourite of these was the one who said (paraphrased),

Would somebody please mailbomb $EMAIL_ADDRESS. He says I'm not elite.

I tell ya, you don't get that grade of comedy with Diablo II.

Re:Misleading title

[troc]

With his cronies:

Sang-Band, a group of mystics who always stopped singing just before you entered the room;

Zang-Band, a Dutch parody of the above;

R. O. Guelike (gooey-lickie), a strange, twisted individual who steals time and productivity from apparently intelligent people.

Angband is, as we know the only way to utter (DON'T say this aloud) Danbg'na, patron saint of all things blue and prickly.

But, as explained abouve in a previous posts it's the Literalists that you have to be careful of, they are always on the prowl and will drag you away at a moment's notice for a quick flogging.

No, I don't know why they like to be flogged by strangers either.

Troc, who is in a weird mood today, sorry.

Re:Misleading title

[saddino]

Nope. Following in the one-word tradition of almost all UNIX apps, the original executable's name was simply "hack" which can be easily typed into a shell (as opposed to escaping the whitespace in a multi-word executable).

Re:Misleading title

[Robotech_Master]

Because the game Hack was named for a definition of the word "hack" that branched off well before "hacking" became synonymous with malicious computer activity.

The history of the word "hack" is detailed in this appendix that trace the word from its origin as a synonym of "goof" in the 1950s at MIT. It subsequently became used to describe explorations in off-limits tunnels under colleges (a practice that is satirized in Neal Stephenson's The Big U). Hmm, exploring forbidden tunnels...does this concept sound familiar?

(Subsequently, when the same students who hacked through tunnels found the new computer on campus, they gave birth to the more recent definition of "hack," involving messing around with computers. Then when journalists got ahold of the word, it took on its more malicious meaning.)

Re:Misleading title

[HenryFlower]

WWWWolf, who should get back to the Usenet any week now

Please do! The trolls have been misssing you -- the LARTs just haven't been the same.

Arien

Re:Misleading title

[Anonymous Coward]

According to Google,

I NEED SOMEONE TO MAKE ME A BIG EMAIL BOMB AND SEND IT TO $EMAIL_ADDRESS BECAUSE HE IS A FUCKING lAmEr aNd I wAnT TO TEACH HIM A LESSON FOR SAYIN THAT I DONT KNOW SHIT ABOUT HACCKING. HE IS WRONG I AM ELITE I HACKED AOL AND GOT 3 PEOPLES PASSWORDS WITH MY ELITE PHISH PROGRAM

See http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=slrn67j9kf.6l .wwwwolf%40wwwwolf.pp.fi&rnum=1

Re:Misleading title

[WNight]

Very clever of you to obfuscate Dnabgna's true name to prevent the unwary falling into the shadows of blue.

solving the dungeon

[twadzilla]

Funny, I just finished a fun programming assignment here at umich on a limited version of nethack--help Hugo find the stairs!

Re:solving the dungeon

[Anonymous Coward]

That is very cool! I wish I had programming projects like that when I was an undergrad.

Re:solving the dungeon

[Destoo]

Oh my god..
This is just like saying "Your next assignment will be to smoke some weed and give me a report."

First hit is not only free but MANDATORY..
That teacher wants to keep his students forever, right?

Seriously, very cool project.

Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[BadmanX]

I'm serious. I'm a huge computer game buff, but Nethack has always left me cold. The interface is awful, the game is deliberately user-hostile, and you die constantly in ways you can't possibly prevent (boulder trap on level 1, for instance). Most "puzzles" have completely non-logical solutions. (Starving? Pray to your diety! Makes perfect sense!) It feels far too much like playing a paper-and-pencil RPG against an adversarial GM. They thought of everything? Everything but the fun.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[hexxx]

Well you could always EAT something if you are starving.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[kinnell]

The interface is awful, the game is deliberately user-hostile, and you die constantly in ways you can't possibly prevent (boulder trap on level 1, for instance).

A bit too realistic perhaps? ;-)

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[the_mind_]

You can drop _all_ you belongings and squeeze you naked '@' past the boulder.
most of the time anyway.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[BadmanX]

I once starved to death as I crammed apple after apple down my throat. Why? I don't know. And after I deleted the game, I didn't care either.

I remember my most promising game...I actually made it to level 3, where I was almost instantly confronted by a goblin with a wand of magic missile. Zap! Half my hitpoints are gone. I try to run. I get one step away. Zap! The other half are gone. Good-bye character. Good-bye game.

It's just completely arbitrary. There's really no design to it at all. Winning the game is simply a process of playing it compulsively over and over until you finally get lucky and don't die right away and can start building levels. And even then, one wrong move and you're dead. Sorry, I got tired of that game mechanic back in the mid-80's.

And that's the real problem with the game. Nobody on the DevTeam has played a game since Zork, or they'd understand that frustration isn't considered fun any more.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[pnot]

Starving? Pray to your diety! Makes perfect sense!

Or eat some food. Or kill an animal, then eat it. Or drink some fruit juice. Larry Wall didn't invent TMTOWTDI, you know.

As for praying to your deity... well, if you believe in an interventionist deity, and you're starving to death, what would *you* say the natural response is? I find it quite realistic to have prayer as a last resort when you are cursed, starving, or dying by violence, and the system of sacrifices to placate the gods certainly has parallels in a lot of belief systems.

As to the realism of prayer actually *working*, I think maybe I'll leave that can of flames unopened for now :-).

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[PD]

Nethack is a game for programmers. Why don't you write a script that moves randomly until you get the amulet? It won't even be considered cheating.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[Jugalator]

You aren't alone. Nethack feel like nothing more than that to me -- a hack. When I play the game, I always get the feeling of playing a product of a bored hacker who just liked to have something to do while not administrating his Unix system. And that might very well be the actual origin of the game as well, I don't know.

My problems with this game is probably due to a combo of the disgusting ASCII "art" and the illogical game play with a million of keyboard shortcuts to remember. So I pick up a port that's focused on the graphics part such as Falcon's Eye and get the same game but with sprites that look the same regardless of which way you turn, merely as a substitute of the @ character or whatever.

I'm not saying I could do it better, I'm saying that I think it sucks when compared to a commercial RPG. So I choose to play those instead. If I'd pick up the aging Eye of the Beholder today, I'd still find that much more fun than a game of Nethack.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[basse]

Starving? Pray to your diety! Makes perfect sense!

Shouldn't that be "Pray to your dietist!" instead...?

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[BadmanX]

Yay! I'm not alone! Not alone!

Just about any of the big RPGs since the resurgence are far more fun in my opinion than Nethack. Fallout and Fallout 2, Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2, Planescape: Torment, Ultima VII (use Exult to play it) - any of these would be a more entertaining use of my time than playing Nethack.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[WWWWolf]

Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say Nethack is a bad game. I admire it for all the details that have got into it.

But yeah, the hardness of the game is the only thing that really disappoints me. But then again, few games manage to inspire feelings of GREAT accomplishments even on The Most Stupid Death Ever. (My games have been far from the perfect, but the one I last did was... awesome.)

I always have to remind myself that this game isn't technically about having fun in the sense most roleplaying games define "fun". This is more like Diablo for people with some parts of the brains still active.

Nethack is quite probably the best game in the CRPG subgenre of "kill enemies and get XP and gold". But for "sit down and enjoy a great story" subgenre, I'd definitely recommend Ultima series, and for "smell the dice and try to roleplay" subgenre, Neverwinter Nights. =)

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[Jondor]

Nah, limited idea about the game..

Step - search 20 - step - search 20..

It maynot be a lot of fun, put yeah.. you probably can avoid to die THAT easy. Personaly I don't bother realy until it starts looking like a worthwile game.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[Ignorant Aardvark]

The interface is awful, the game is deliberately user-hostile, and you die constantly in ways you can't possibly prevent (boulder trap on level 1, for instance). Not true. I happen to play a lot of Nethack and boulder traps won't start showing up until level 6 or after.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[Anonymous Coward]

While the original post is a troll, falling rock traps do show up on the first level. I usually try to get my pet killed by one ;-)

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[Anonymous Coward]

Winning the game is simply a process of playing it compulsively over and over until you finally get lucky and don't die right away and can start building levels.

No, you play it enough to learn how to avoid the stupid deaths. Luck has very little to do with it. There are only few instakills that you can't avoid in the game. (Most common is a poisoned arrow or dart before acquiring poisong resistance).

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[Anonymous Coward]

The trick with missiles in Nethack is to walk diagonally. If you do it right, and plan where you're going to go before you get there (think Chess or Go) you will be able to get to a door and close it without getting shot. The trick to food and spells and the like is to eat them/cast them in safe places where you know you won't be attacked while you're eating or while you fuck up and accidentally cast "darkness". There is a strategy to Nethack, no question, though i have to admit i've never made it past about level 15 or 20 in the dungeons. The thing that really gets me is monsters that attack faster than you can, because they can outrun you and attack you and there's nothing you can do. (Or is there?) I am guessing the best players just hang around on levels 3 and 4 of the dungeon for ages till they level up enough to have a bit of a safety buffer, but i have a tendency to just go hard. Yeah, it's frustrating as hell... but it's just a time waster, you know? Whatever. There is a bit of strategy to it, but it's like playing Chess against a computer that will always kick your ass.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[doubleyewdee]

I always have to remind myself that this game isn't technically about having fun in the sense most roleplaying games define "fun". This is more like Diablo for people with some parts of the brains still active.

I can't really agree there. I've played nethack. I've retrieved the amulet. I feel I've "beaten" it for my intents and purposes (please, god, don't flame me about this). I also basically got this far because I stubbornly refused to be beaten down by the game.

I can see the Diablo comparison. They're both hack and slash games. The thing Diablo does not do to you, though, is leave you stranded and basically screwed at the beginning of the game. It doesn't, through lack of balance, force you to continually cycle through characters because the game gave you bad breaks.

The thing is, as a player of both games, I think Diablo is a hell of a lot more fun. Diablo is like nethack with balance. I think, in fact, that people who like to kick back and do some hacking for a while, are much better served by Diablo. Wasting time trying to beat (yeah yeah) nethack was probably a very poor decision on my part. It was a very smart decision on my part to never touch it again.

What I'm saying is, if all you want to do is hack and find treasure and use it on your quest to hack, Diablo is probably going to be more enjoyable. It's easier to get in to, much more friendly and intuitive, and much less likely to leave you in a completely unsalvageable game.

If, on the other hand, you enjoy the randomness of being potentially screwed in every other game you play, well, go nuts with nethack. Some people seem to really enjoy this. That's fine, but it's sure not for me, and I don't think it is for most people. Including those of us with "some parts of the brain still active."

And please, don't tell me about how you can always "work through" problems in nethack. I know, I've played it enough to know the tricks. What you fail to see is that often "working through" will just leave you screwed down the road, even if your immediate problem is solved. I honestly don't find that challenging, I find it irritating.

A game with really excellent balance *will* allow you to screw yourself, but it won't force you to abandon a game you've put hours (or days!) into. It will provide means by which to salvage your game. Even if it means hard work on your part, you'll still be able to do it. Plus, the game won't screw you through ridiculous arbitrary randomness. Sure, you can get yourself killed if you're careless, or stick your neck out too far, but you don't die from "starvation" well into the game because you can't get a bite, or you get poison meat, and your deity decides it's his day off, or whatever. That's just arbitrary and irritating. It isn't fun.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[Powercntrl]

But yeah, the hardness of the game is the only thing that really disappoints me. But then again, few games manage to inspire feelings of GREAT accomplishments even on The Most Stupid Death Ever.

Back in the day... (*looks at calendar*) Okay, it wasn't that long ago... I started out playing adventure games like the Leisure Suit larry series by Sierra. I realize adventure games (collect items, solve puzzles) aren't the same thing as RPG (kill monsters, get XP), but the thing that really frustrated me about the Sierra games was the incredibly stupid deaths...

Let's see, I am play Leisure Suit larry, let's cross the road to see what's on the other side... "SPLAT! Oops, that street is really dangerous! Load a savegame or restart?" Uggh. There goes all my fun.

I didn't really think adventure games were something I could really get into until I started playing ones like the Monkey Island series, The Neverhood, and Willy Beamish (which admittedly you could die in, but it rarely happened). I thought it was really funny when playing Lucasarts's Monkey Island how they poked fun at Sierra by having the character fall off the ledge and then bringing up a parody of the infamous Sierra "You fscked up" screen.

It just amazes me that a game like Nethack even needs to have character death at all. It seems like the game is large and complicated enough to pose a challenge without having your character die suddenly.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[Anonymous Coward]

Moderators on crack... This isn't flamebait. It's called "a different opinion".

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am guessing the best players just hang around on levels 3 and 4 of the dungeon for ages till they level up enough to have a bit of a safety buffer, but i have a tendency to just go hard.

In addition to being boring that strategy is actually very bad. By hanging out on a single level you usually end up facing tougher monsters without first finding equipment necessary for dealing with them.

The most important thing for succesful nethacking is to learn when to fight and when to run. A timely retreat will save your hide and you can come back after resting for a while. Also, knowing what options there are available for "instant retreats" adds a lot to survivability.

Most early-game nethack deaths are avoidable. Of course, there are cases when you can't do anything, like encountering a polymorph trap-generated arch-lich on dungeon level 8, but those are comparatively rare events.

I've ascended a character ~30 times (I haven't been counting for several years). The easiest classes are samurai, valkyrie, and barbarian followed by wizard. In my opinion the most difficult is healer. I'd estimate that starting with a fighting class character I have ~50% change ascending it while I can get only 1 healer in 20 to the Astral Plane.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[peter]

> They thought of everything?

So read the source code while you play. It's more fun that way, because you can vicariously enjoy the situations where the messages you see in the code would be printed, as well as die less so you don't piss yourself off so much.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[H.G. Pennypacker]

Eye of the Beholder.. good game, but I don't know why you would pick that as an example. That was an extremely frustrating game. It took me 10 years of on and off (more off than on) playing to beat it.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[juuri]

If, on the other hand, you enjoy the randomness of being potentially screwed in every other game you play, well, go nuts with nethack.

This is why, when people ask, I say "nethack is more of a life simulator".

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[foxtrot]

I can see the Diablo comparison. They're both hack and slash games. The thing Diablo does not do to you, though, is leave you stranded and basically screwed at the beginning of the game.

This is actually one of the beauties of Nethack. If you play, for example, a Wizard, the early game is tough. Really tough. You can't melee, if you use spells too much you starve, you're just screwed at the beginning.

If you play, say, a caveman, you're pretty well off at the beginning-- you can melee anything you meet, and eat most of it once it's dead.

If you survived as a Wizard, the endgame is much easier. Give ol' Rodney the finger and he doesn't bother you so much.

If you played a caveman, the endgame is notably tougher. Your lack of spell-fu means you're pretty much forced to melee everything you meet, which gets old after a while.

Each character is balanced, and has a tougher or easier time in the beginning, middle, and end of the game.

-JDF

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[anon*127.0.0.1]

I've played Diablo I and II, EOB, Daggerfall, Wizardry, LoL... damn, I've wasted a bunch of time playing computer RPG's. They were fun, but I'm not playing any of them any more. Commercial RPG's are a pretty face over a (relatively) shallow game. Once you've won, the fun is pretty much over. Replay doesn't reveal much new stuff, just more of the same stuff you saw the first time. I don't think any of those games are still on my HD.

I've played a fair amount of Nethack too. It's an ugly face on a pretty deep game. There always seems to be something new to find or do or try or see. Sure, I die a lot. Thats part of the fun, actually. I enjoy Nethack a lot more when I try to have fun playing, instead of having fun trying to win.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[Ignorant Aardvark]

This is why, when people ask, I say "nethack is more of a life simulator".

Your pet cat gets crushed by a boulder, you get polymorphed into a frog by a gnome with a wand, your bag of holding explodes on you, and you die from choking on a can of spinach.

Yeah, that pretty much sums up life to me.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[namespan]

The thing that really gets me is monsters that attack faster than you can, because they can outrun you and attack you and there's nothing you can do. (Or is there?)

If you have the misfortune to run into an air elemental, leacrotta, or even rothe before you're prepared, about the only thing you can do is use the E-word (Elbereth) or some other repeatable method to try and scare them away repeatedly. It's a bit tedious, but it can work. I've used it to keep a crowd of 8 orcs, 2 rothes, a mean kitten, and an iguana off of an inexperienced healer's back -- and eventually chop them all up.

Otherwise:

(1) Get speed intrinsic (wand of speed monster, some corpses). Get speed boots if at all possible (right after magic resistance).

(2) Wand of Teleport. Best, because you can use it on you, or on the monster.

(3) Scroll of teleportation.

(4) Wand of digging. Fast escape through the floor.

And of course, a good AC and good weapon. But everybody wants that.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you're not. I can't stand that game. I haven't looked at the source, but I'd swear that game cheats by the entire game environment behaving strategicly against you.

In games where you play against another human or a creature with AI, an opponent that uses strategy is expected. But in a man vs environment game, the world setting itself should not be able to use strategy! The world is supposed to be situation neutral, but instead the entire nethack world tries to exploit your current weakness every time.

Examples:

Hungry? You'll never see another food animal again.
Low on hit points? Here's a level full of monsters.
Buffed? No monsters to kill at all.
Empty inventory? No items to pick up.
Full inventory? Lots of items to pick up.
Have identify scroll? Nothting to identify.
No identity scrolls? Everything is unidentified.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[SubliminalLove]

Diablo: Whack something with a sword. Pick up a better sword. Whack something bigger with the new sword. OOH! A better sword!

Nethack: Kill a basilisk. Put on a pair of gloves. Weild the basilsk as a weapon.

Nethack has heart.

~SL

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[jericho4.0]

I'll admit that it can seem arbitrary at times, but a skilled player can beat nethack consistently, so there is some sense to it.

Praying to your deiety is only one way to avoid starvation. There's also polymorphing, summon monster and eating your towel. (not much nutritional value there, but...)

It rewards out-of-box thinking.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[jericho4.0]

You got it, pal. I thought Diablo was the most boring hack'n'slash ever. I couldn't care less about my charecter.

Nethack, OTOH, has the ability to throw me into a raging hissy fit, after starving/boulder trap/etc. I love it.

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm, what do you have to polymorph into to eat your towel again? :) Gelatinous cube??

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[jericho4.0]

I might be wrong here, or remembering a varient or somesuch, butI belive you can eat your towel/shoes/gloves for a tiny bit of nutritional value.

Even if I _am_ wrong, my point still stands, you're not dead untill you're dead, so try things. :)

Re:Am I the only geek who HATES Nethack?

[Anonymous Coward]

A bit too realistic perhaps? ;-)

Actually, this is something game designers are asked all the time. "You went for realism, but left out X". The answer is always something along the lines of:
In games there is a give and take. Realism is needed to help emerge the player in the game, but you don't want "total" realism, because, well, you would just live life. Fun comes out from doing something you can't do in real life. The number one rule for a game is that it is fun.

Bah, didn't hit preview!

[tunah]

PHB: What's that you're doing?
Me: Err... I'm hexediting the new project, just working out a couple of bugs.
<the grid bug bites!>
Me: There's one! Must have got into the system through the power...
<you killed the grid bug!>
PHB: Nice work! I should give you a raise!
Me: How 'bout an office with a door?
PHB: No, people play games if I can't see them working.
Me: I guess that's a good point. I should get back to my work...

non-GUI games

[tankdilla]

I'm a n00b trying to develop my first game. I made a "rough draft" that runs, but it's all scrolling text (like MUDs), just to get a working engine going, but i'm reluctant to release it because the graphics aren't ready yet. But are there a lot of these text-based games around that are fun even though they don't have graphics, or is it pretty much the standard that you need graphics in the game for it to be taken seriously? I never played Nethack but i'm about to check it out. Sounds like a good game. p.s. I'm still working on the graphics, just wondering if I should wait and finish first or release the text-based version to the open source community.

Re:non-GUI games

[leoboiko]

Games with full-screen character graphics are called "roguelike", after the 1980's game "rogue". IMHO, they're much deeper than most modern so-called RPGs.

Some of my favorites are angband, mangband, slashem and omega.

For general information, try this or that.

Re:non-GUI games

[riedquat]

There are many excellent single-player scrolling text based adventure games and they are still being developed. However, you are unlikely to appeal to the masses with a text or character based interface as most people expect games to have fast-moving graphics. Also, developing a good text interface can be at least as difficult as developing a graphics engine.

Good examples are Graham Nelson's Curses and anything by Magnetic Scrolls, although the latter are a little tricky to find and get running on modern OSs.

What do we need a new version for?

[pnot]

At one point, NetHack had everything but the kitchen sink. Then they added the kitchen sink. What more could you want? :-)

Re:What do we need a new version for?

[Anonymous Coward]

Kick the kitchen sink. I dare you!

Re:What do we need a new version for?

[Anonymous Coward]

This has a nice ring to it ;-)

Re:What do we need a new version for?

[scrytch]

At one point, NetHack had everything but the kitchen sink. Then they added the kitchen sink. What more could you want? :-)

How about a kitchen? It could have a tin opener, an icebox, and of course some cleaver-wielding cooks...

A good plan?

[Jugalator]

1. Bring Nethack to today when it comes to graphics and sound.
2. ...?
3. Profit!

Right now, *all* graphic ports of Nethack look like a tile based game of the early 90's, which isn't a huge improvement from the ASCII art. When will this game be brought a decade forward in multimedia quality? What I'd like to see is something along the lines of the graphics found in Diablo or Baldur's Gate. And skip this tile based system. Then I'll see if I'm interested. I'm sure a ton of work and polish has went into this game and appreciate RPG's like Baldur's Gate, so I'm no Action RPG freak, but the graphics is simply not immersive enough for me yet. :-(

If these "demands" of mine need Nethack to be some commercial product, so be it. I haven't got a problem with that. If Nethack is as good as I've heard, it could turn out to be a killer game.

Re:A good plan?

[wodon]

If they do, I can't wait to see the fully raytraced, mip-mapped hi rez @ sign brutally attacking the letter Z.

I think bullet time would go down well too!

Re:A good plan?

[pnot]

1. Bring Nethack to today when it comes to graphics and sound

Have you seen Falcon's Eye?

Re:A good plan?

[WWWWolf]

What I'd like to see is something along the lines of the graphics found in Diablo or Baldur's Gate. And skip this tile based system.

But Diablo games, as far as I know, are tiles based, they just mask that cleverly with cool graphics =)

And in 3.4.0, the open source community struck a fatal blow to the evil money-grubbing capitalist fascist pigs of Vivendi, the Destroyer of Bnetd, by creating a clicky-clicky-what-lotta-fun-slaying-monsters GUI for Windows to lure the Ignorant Masses away from the plight of Diablo II to the land of the TRUE games. =)

Re:A good plan?

[Des Herriott]

When will this game be brought a decade forward in multimedia quality?

When someone feels like doing it.

Personally, I like the game for its playability, not any so-called "multimedia quality". Hell, I still play in ASCII mode (albeit with colour). I'm not a luddite, though - I've played Eye of the Beholder, Diablo, Dungeon Siege etc., and found them reasonably enjoyable for a while, but Nethack is the one that keeps me coming back. 15 years since I first played it (back in the 1.0 days) and it's still fun.

If Nethack is as good as I've heard, it could turn out to be a killer game.

It already is a killer game... lord knows it's killed me enough times :-) But seriously, it's a game developed by a group of people for fun, without the expectation of profit, and it has an intensely loyal following. If you don't like it, don't play it, or do something by contributing to it. But standing at the sidelines and bitching isn't going to do you, or anyone else, any good.

Re:A good plan?

[g4dget]

When will this game be brought a decade forward in multimedia quality?

You're missing the point.

If these "demands" of mine need Nethack to be some commercial product, so be it.

NetHack would lose something if it got that kind of graphics. But if you like that sort of thing, why not just play Diablo?

Re:A good plan?

[Jugalator]

Personally, I like the game for its playability, not any so-called "multimedia quality"

Yes, of course playability is extremely important. That's why I didn't like Dungeon Siege even if it had excellent graphics. I just think some improvements in that area would make the game appeal to more of us.

If you don't like it, don't play it, or do something by contributing to it. But standing at the sidelines and bitching isn't going to do you, or anyone else, any good.

No, and since I'm not able to contribute since I'm no graphics artist or have enough spare time to develop Nethack, I don't play it anymore. I'm just taking the opportunity when the topic was brought up to share my thoughts. I just don't see why Nethack would get worse by improving its aging graphics.

Re:A good plan?

[BlackHawk-666]

I may be old skool, but I tend to consider Diablo a dumbed down version of NetHack. Diablo has the nice tiles graphics and sound, but NetHack was more immersive. There is so much to learn about playing the game...examples

Open a tin of salmon to get rid of cursed rings

Eat a red dragon to become immune to fire attacks

GENOCIDE! Woot!

Dip your sword in a pool after inscribing Elbereth on it to gain a +5 magic sword

And there's millions of little things like that. That's one of the reasons it's called Hack - because it has been "hacked" together by hundred of programmers and is full of "Hacks".

All the time I played Diablo I found myself wishing it had the depth of hack with the graphics and sound of Diablo.

Re:A good plan?

[Jugalator]

NetHack would lose something if it got that kind of graphics

Well, if the poor graphics of a game is the special thing it can't loose, the game surely isn't for me.

But if you like that sort of thing, why not just play Diablo?

Of course I play other games instead of sticking with a game I don't like. It's not like I'm a masochist. I'm just sharing my thoughts.

Re:A good plan?

[Des Herriott]

I don't completely disagree with you - a prettier face wouldn't make Nethack worse, as long as it's just an option. But let's face it, as an open-source project, it would just fork if a new interface suddenly become the only choice (which isn't likely to happen any time soon anyway). Thing is, there are plenty of people (like me) who prefer the plain ol' character interface and turn-based strategies. Attempts have been made to pretty it up (like Falcon's Eye), but there has been limited demand for that.

Would a completely new interface be a mass-market success? I doubt it very much, not without also making fundamental changes to the gameplay, by which I mean ripping most of it out - the game just doesn't fit with the instant-gratification culture of today's gaming market. I'm really not sure how you could fit the complexity and flexibility of Nethack's actions with the easy-to-use interface of (say) Dungeon Siege.

Re:A good plan?

[TopShelf]

Have you even seen the game? To ask for these things is to ask for Nethack to become like everything else out there, which it most definitely is not, thank goodness.

Re:A good plan?

[Kamamura]

Wow! I didn't think it's actually possible to dumb Diablo down any further!

Re:A good plan?

[will_die]

Already been done.
It is called Diablo and Diablo 2.

Re:A good plan?

[Homburg]

Well, to be honest, your examples reflect precisely what I dislike about NetHack, its arbitariness. How do you learn any of this stuff other than trial and error? Diablo has at least occassional attempts to produce a gameworld that makes sense, rather than just being a random and incomprehensible series of 'hacks'.

Baldur's Gate or Deus Ex are, to my mind, much more immersive than either NetHack or Diablo, not primarily because of the graphics, but because it's possible to do well in these games by thinking like a participant in the game world, rather than as an external player of the game. Much of the best recent Interactive Fiction is immersive for similar reasons, and obviously in the case of IF, the immersiveness isn't to do with the graphics. Adam Cadre's I-0 is a good example.

I'm aware that some people like the NetHack style of gameplay, but frankly, they're wrong. More to the point, though, I do think the NetHack style, whether good or bad, is distinctly old-fashioned. Merely improving the graphics won't make the game more appealing to those who want a more modern style of gameplay, which seemed to be the suggestion being made by the guy I was originally replying to.

Oh, BTW:

GENOCIDE! Woot!

I can't help but think that's going to be quoted out-of-context against you, one of these days.

Re:A good plan?

[IIRCAFAIKIANAL]

Personally, I don't mind the lack of graphics and sound, so "fixing" those wouldn't fix nethack (for me). For me, the turn-off is it's annoyingly difficult and I have such a short a-

HEY, my new cereal turned my milk blue! COOL!

Re:A good plan?

[Quill_28]

Or put another another way.

Man, I might read a book, if it had good multimedia quality.
What I would like is pretty pictures and not words.
Skip this letter based system.
Then I'll see if I'm interested.
But the words are simply not immersive enough for me yet. :-(
If these "demands" of mine need Nethack to be some commercial product, so be it. I haven't got a problem with that. If Nethack is as good as I've heard, it could turn out to be a killer game. ..my child, it is a killer game, you just don't realize it yet.

Re:A good plan?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not "Hacker" but you my friend are an idiot and a troll.

Re:A good plan?

[peter]

> How do you learn any of this stuff other than trial and error?

Read the source and the spoilers. If I tried to play nethack as if I were actually my @ character, well, I'd probably just get the hell out of the dungeon and live a long life telling stories about how much ass I kicked, but that I couldn't find a taxidermist to make trophies out of all the stuff I killed... What I find fun is to figure out the game and enjoy thinking about the game system and possibilities, not actually doing a lot of stuff. I also play in non-scoring discovery mode.

I don't play very much. I played a lot for a couple days, but I haven't played much since. Still, I could easily see playing some more sometime.

Baldur's Gate or Deus Ex are, to my mind, much more immersive than either NetHack or Diablo, not primarily because of the graphics, but because it's possible to do well in these games by thinking like a participant in the game world, rather than as an external player of the game.

Good point. That's something that really bugs me about some games that want to be immersive. I sometimes give up on a game when I've discovered enough things about the system that I'm just jumping through its hoops instead of feeling like I'm actually doing anything. Some games play ok without being immersive, esp. simple games like tron.

> I'm aware that some people like the NetHack style of gameplay, but frankly, they're wrong.

I suppose people who like to watch TV instead of read books are similarly wrong? (and not because of the content, just the medium.) Things don't have to be immersive to be fun.

Re:A good plan?

[Quill_28]

NetHack is a strategy game, with an RPG fascade.

Diablo is a point and click game with very little strategy, while Baldur's Gate is a very good story with RPG chars and some strategy. Not too much, you can always reload.

I have played them all, though I found Diablo II quite long and tedious. There is just simply little thinking involved.

But too call nethack simplistic is to make yourself seem so.

Re:A good plan?

[42forty-two42]

Open a tin of salmon to get rid of cursed rings

Any cursed tin wil do that, IIRC, and sometimes uncursred ones as well. Use a towel to reverse the effects. :) TDTTOE

Re:A good plan?

[jandrese]

I could never stand those tile interfaces. The little 16x16 or even 8x8 tiles were always too small for me. It was much easier to visually discern a D rather than a blob of green and red pixels. Plus you can play the ASCII version in a PuTTY window over SSH. :)

Re:A good plan?

[namespan]

Sinks? Scroll readings have different effects when confused? Large number of player classes, each with own quest? Prayer?

I haven't played Diablo/2, but it's pretty easy for me to suspect that even if the basic item classes and combat are roughly the same, the rest of the gameplay probably isn't as deep.

Re:A good plan?

[watanabe]

I find that the original, color IBM PC text interface for nethack is the one I'm best at. I think this is for a few reasons:

• The Information density of colored text is quite high. This is because font designers spent years making sure that for your 96 pixels, you got 128 very different looking things. Frankly, the text is easier to read than most tilesets. I know at a glance that two small light blue ds are winter wolves. How many artists can accurately convey 'winter wolf' to me in a 32x32 icon? And make it distinguishable from a silver wolf?
• Having played nethack for 10 years or so, I definitely 'get' the map generator. So I almost always know which rooms have secret doors, where to look for passages, etc. I've found this really hard to do in isometric view. Also, even though I run at 1600x1200, I haven't found an isometric view which lets me see the whole level at a time. Unlike ASCII.

I already am bad enough at the game that I don't need another layer of confusion (What, those were Uruk-hai? Not gnomes?) added to my poor playing. I'll stick with ASCII, thank you very much.

Re:A good plan?

[Anonymous Coward]

No. Diablo II's UI works very well for Diablo II, NetHack's UI works very well for NetHack, but Diablo II's UI would suck ass for NetHack. NetHack is a single player, turn based, tile based game; changing that would change the game for the worse. You said you heard NetHack is good- it is good, but it's good as NetHack, it wouldn't be good as a Diablo clone. I don't mean to sound like a roguelike zealot who can't stand new-fangled games, because I'm not, but it doesn't make sense to change things just because it might make it appeal to more people, even if it makes it worse. Think realtime 3D tic-tac-toe.

Re:A good plan?

[eaolson]

I could never stand those tile interfaces. The little 16x16 or even 8x8 tiles were always too small for me. It was much easier to visually discern a D rather than a blob of green and red pixels.

I can't stand the tiles, either. My main complaint is that the level no longer fits in the window.

I started using ChrHack around version 3.2, and I'm addicted to it. It takes a bit of tweaking to use with the latest versions (due to the addition of graves and trees), but it replaces the item and dungeon symbols with something a little more item and dungeon-looking, but keeps the monsters as their ASCII letters. Best of all, everything has the original aspect ratio, so it doesn't look *too* much different.

Re:A good plan?

[g4dget]

Well, if the poor graphics of a game is the special thing it can't loose, the game surely isn't for me.

Yes, in roughly the same way that the poor graphics of, oh, say Ulysses or the Iliad are the "special thing" those works can't easily lose. That doesn't stop people from making the movie version--light on content but heavy on graphics. And you already have that for NetHack--just get Diablo.

Re:A good plan?

[jericho4.0]

A game of Diablo;

hack, slash,hack, slash,hack, slash, get weapon/level, repeat. Comparing it to nethack is comparing Hearts to GoFish.

Re:A good plan?

[PurpleFloyd]

I cannot believe nobody has mentioned this, so here goes.

Nethack is based on a system in which you can think about your actions for as long as you want. In fact, one fairly common variety of posts to alt.games.rougelike.nethack is "here's a screenshot, what do I do now?" If it were to go away from a tile and turn-based game, you would lose a good portion of the ability to formulate a strategy. Incidentally, try Fallout for a really good turn and tile-based combat system. If you haven't, go get it and Fallout 2 in the bargain bin (I've seen the two packaged together in the discount rack for about $10 US).

Real-time and turn-based combat are both good when implemented correctly, but Nethack has had years of work go into creating a truly excellent turn and tile based combat system.

Re:A good plan?

[Thorkytel Ant-Head]

I find that the original, color IBM PC text interface for nethack is the one I'm best at.

Me too, probably because it's the one I started on. So, for us Mac guys, does anyone know of a good font out there that mimics the IBM PC DOS font? I would love to play on my Mac with that font.

Re:A good plan?

[Homburg]

I'm afraid I don't get this:

NetHack is a strategy game, with an RPG fascade.

Could you explain what strategy is involved in NetHack? I've always played it as an exploration-based game with hack-and-slash combat - but perhaps that explains why I do so badly at it.

Actually, Falconseye is a significant improvement

[expro]

The game stands on it's own, but the added graphics don't need to be anywhere near perfect to make the game immensely more usable by non-techies. My six-year-old has played it again and again, and loves it, which never would have happened with the text-only version.

Nethack based comic?

[GeekDork]

There is a more or less loosely Nethack-based webcomic somewhere out there. Most of the time, the hero gets blown up by the town idiot or other weak creatures. Anyone got an idea where that comic is?

Re:Nethack based comic?

[tomknight]

You might be thinking of the Angband Comic (after all, you did mention the village idiot).

Tom.

Re:Nethack based comic?

[dr_eaerth]

There is a more or less loosely Nethack-based webcomic somewhere out there.

I don't know of the comic you speak of, but I'll take this time to plug "Final Fantasy @," an eight panel doujinshi (fan comic) for Final Fantasy X, done in the roguelike style. I'm not particularly fond of the game, but there are so many Final Fantasy doujins out there, I couldn't resist.

It's not that good, but the juxtaposition of the expensive FMV of FF being replaced by ASCII amuses me.

Halfway down the page:
http://worldrim.tripod.com/comics.html.

Re:Nethack based comic?

[Destoo]

Funny. and ontopic!!

I'd suggest turning it into an animation sometime...

OS X Binaries

[LippyTheLip]

FYI, according to the download site Mac OS X binaries will be releaed "in a few weeks." In the meantime it will run (untested) in classic mode. I think I'll wait... i just hate waiting for Classic to start and the fact that it sucks up so many clock cycles while running...

Re:OS X Binaries

[Anonymous Coward]

Or if you can't wait, download the source package.

0. unpack it or let your favourite browser do it;

0.5. go to nethack-3.4.1/sys/unix and execute
sh ./setup.sh

1. Make sure
#define SYSV
is uncommented in nethack-3.4.1/include/unixconf.h. Not #define BSD (yeah I know I know)

2. Uncomment the line
WINTTYLIB = -lncurses
on line 223 of nethack-3.4.1/src/Makefile
and comment out what was uncommented for it.

3. execute "make" in the nethack-3.4.1/src directory - compiles and links fine apart from a dupe reference to _ospeed.

4. execute "make all" in the nethack-3.4.1 dir

5. Create a user "games" if you haven't got one

6. If you've a /usr/games/lib/nethackdir back up anything you need in it (save and bones files probably won't work on the new NH from previous experience)

7. Execute "make install" in the nethack-3.4.1 dir either by sudo or as root.

8. Put the following lines (if you haven't got them already) in ~/.cshrc:
setenv PATH ${PATH}:/usr/games/lib/nethackdir/
setenv NETHACKDIR /usr/games/lib/nethackdir/

9. Play Nethack in your Terminal - no tiles, no windows, no menus, vi keys - as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end.

(ooooh - flamebait)

Re:OS X Binaries

[Anonymous Coward]

and the fact that it sucks up so many clock cycles while running...

cause of course you need that litle bit of extra power while playing nethack, right?

Re:OS X Binaries

[Anonymous Coward]

OBFink: I'm sure it'll be in the unstable tree of fink shortly.

Re:OS X Binaries

[Thorkytel Ant-Head]

Tried it, got the following: touch ../src/config.h-t cc -O -I../include -c monst.c cc -O -I../include -c objects.c cc -O -I../include -c -o makedefs.o makedefs.c cc -o makedefs makedefs.o ../src/monst.o ../src/objects.o /usr/bin/ld: /usr/lib/libSystem.dylib load command 9 unknown cmd field make[1]: *** [makedefs] Error 1 make: *** [../util/makedefs] Error 2 Suggestions?

Re:I smell a...

[solidox]

get out your wumpus-repellant-bat-spray

Today

[IanBevan]

This is my week.

1. Found out wife is pregnant.

2. Our rental has been sold and we have 42 days find a new place/move out.

3. Starting a new job on Monday

4. New version of nethack released

Oh, the inhumanity of it all...

Re:Today

[Anonymous Coward]

ah ha

Re:Today

[Zathrus]

Don't forget:

5. Master of Orion 3 is finally released.

I'm going to avoid MOO3... at least until it comes down in price.

I dunno if I can dodge Nethack so easily.

Re:Today

[macshit]

This is my week.
...
Oh, the inhumanity of it all...

Solution? Read slashdot!

Re:Today

[anon*127.0.0.1]

Those are in order of increasing importance, I'm presuming.

Or temporal order. Baby in 9 months, house in 42 days, job in 5 days.. but nethack is NOW!

Re:Today

[Anonymous Coward]

2. Our rental has been sold and we have 42 days find a new place/move out.

Too bad you don't live in beautiful Oakland, CA. Because of ballot measure EE, they can't kick you out for any reason other than "violation of the rental agreement", which basically means not paying the rent. And they can't raise your rent (rent control). The only way they could force you out is if the owner wanted to move in.

It's good to know that some cities actually protect renter's rights rather than always catering to the rich property owners. During the dotcom boom, the price of non-rent controlled apartments in the Bay Area skyrocketed and many people were forced from their long-time homes to make way for the asshole dotbombers. Say what you will about Oakland, at least they protect tenants from that kind of behavior.

Anyone get this compiling under MacOS X?

[wadeb]

I tried building the 'unix' target and it failed linking against termlib.

Re:Anyone get this compiling under MacOS X?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup. Use -lncurses for WINTTYLIB and #define SYSV in unixconf.h. Works in 10.2.3 (definitely an Anonymous Coward - too scared to install 10.2.4 yet)

only if you play the ascii version

[Xtifr]

And I admit, it's nice that the ascii version still works, but the graphic tiles (added in, what, 1992?) make it even nicer, IMO. (Although not quite as safe to play at work, I admit.)

But be careful -- the PHB may not have a clue what all that odd text on your screen really means, but the technical manager probably played it in college himself, and will know at a glance what you're doing. The game has been around for nearly two decades, and in that time, a lot of people you might not expect have probably run across it here or there.

Also, if you're running it on a shared machine, you might want to rename the binary. Any sysadmin who sees "nethack" in a process list will either a) know you're playing games on company time, or b) assume the machine is under attack and panic. Either option may result in effects you may not enjoy.... :)

Re:only if you play the ascii version

[Fricka]

I'm sorry but the ASCII version IS Nethack to me. I played a long time ago, finally gave in and got the latest (before this release anyway) version.

My heart sank when the graphics came up until I found how to get the ASCII back.

I mean, you got to learn to fear capital A's!

Re:only if you play the ascii version

[danshapiro]

Any true nethack player can tell you're playing it (or another roguelike) by listening to the pattern of clicks from your keyboard. Seriously.

-1 Troll

[Des Herriott]

Er, Nethack is a dumbed version of Diablo?

Troll.

Re:-1 Troll

[Homburg]

I said it was like a dumbed down version of Diablo. The gameplay is similar to Diablo, but with an even greater emphasis on hack-and-slash and trial-and-error. That seems to me exactly what you'ld get if you dumbed down Diablo. The fact that, in terms of causality, NetHack influenced Diablo (rather than the other way round) doesn't make my comparison any less accurate.

Re:-1 Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

>hack-and-slash and trial-and-error

Combat skill development and deductive reasoning.
Tomato, tomahto.

In related news

[Anonymous Coward]

ATI's new 9700 pushes the limits of ASCII gaming

Re:In related news

[anon*127.0.0.1]

'bout freaking time. Have you tried playing nethack with a framerate below 900? Sux0rs. I kept getting killed over and over.

Almost a day ago...

[bythescruff]

"Almost a day ago..."

Ahh, I remember it like it was yesterday, oh wait...

Nethack Question

[epsalon]

Anyone know where I can find a playable recording of a successful NetHack game? I want to see a Master play.

Re:Nethack Question

[Des Herriott]

Not sure why that got modded as Funny, I'm guessing it was a serious question... not sure if there are any recordings, but there are a few sites where you can connect and watch games in progress (or just connect and play a game yourself).

Try this index.

Re:Nethack Question

[MartyJG]

Here's the first 1051 moves someones recorded...
here.

It's from a site for a 3D version, but the caps are from original NetHack.

I enjoyed watching it - although grand master it probably isn't - could we start seeing NetHack run-through's appearing on the web the way old Doom and Quake run-throughs are published?!

Re:Nethack Question

[Quill_28]

Because he wants to see someone who asendended in NetHack, A Master.

Since no one is a Master and no one has asendended, it was modded as funny.

Yes, I know it has happened, but still work with me.

and long before mozilla

[Xtifr]

Assuming mozilla really does add a kitchen sink (which is probably unlikely) it would still only be a silly repeat of a joke already told to perfection by the Nethack dev team. :)

For anyone who's interested ...

[Ignorant Aardvark]

The boulder/landmine bug was a serious problem that was identified with release 3.4.0 a few days after it was released. Unfortunately, the release had already been shipped, and so everyone had to either patch it on their own (which involved a re-compile, something Windows users simply seem to lack the skill for) or wait for 3.4.1.

In the game of Nethack there are many things ... these things happen to include boulders that block your path and can be pushed around, as well as rare traps called landmines. When a landmine explodes, it leaves a pit behind. Boulders fill up pit. When you push a boulder onto a landmine, it triggers a panic in the program, which dumps out on you without the possibility of even recovering your saved game.

If anyone is interested in playing Nethack but you don't want to go through the trouble of setting it up for yourself, you can simply play on my public server. SSH or telnet into fyre.sytes.net with username "yasd", password "yasd". You'll be able to set up a username, preferences, and get started playing Nethack. Good luck with your 'hacking!

Re:For anyone who's interested ...

[Ignorant Aardvark]

Holy crap, this must be a first. My Nethack server is gonna get slashdotted at this rate!

Re:For anyone who's interested ...

[lyle_hanson]

I for one really enjoy playing on a public server. It's fun at home, but on a public server you're sort of competing/participating with others. And the bones files you come across from others makes it interesting also.

FWIW, I play on nethack.alt.org and the website lists all kinds of cool statistics and rankings.

Re:For anyone who's interested ...

[mcjulio]

Nethack compiles flawlessly on Win32, as long as you follow the instructions. I changed the color of floating eyes from dark blue to yellow, since I was tired of losing games by accidentally bumping into them thinking they were Orcs.

If you want to ruin someone's life...

[nonos]

... learn him how to play Nethack.

Even better...

[Des Herriott]

Try this site.

Re:Even better...

[namespan]

I think antisymmetric.com is a SLASH'EM server (Super Lotsa Added Stuff Hack - Extended Magic)... even more stuff and more ways to die (do not eat unidentified tins in SLASH'EM, even though it's relatively safe in vanilla nethack, for example). You might get a warped view of strategy from watching someone play something like a doppleganger ice mage (not available in vanilla), unless you're discerning enough to pick up underlying themes of patience and absolute paranoia. On the other hand, you may find SLASH'EM more fun.

Re:Even better...

[epsalon]

OK, great. Could you point me to a specific game on that server that is a full game with an ascention?

Re:Even better...

[Ignorant Aardvark]

Try this site [antisymmetric.com].

I'd like to heartily second this site. It's run by my friend Pooya Woodcock, who is even more of a Nethack loonie than I am. He's a wiz at coding Perl and so he runs the best public Nethack server around.

Re: Even better...

[Anonymous Coward]

You dumbasses. Get the hell off that server. Go waste someone else's goddamn bandwidth. And find something else to do. Nethack sucks. And don't use his goddamn real name on a goddamn public web site. Jesus H. Christ.

Re: Even better...

[Anonymous Coward]

I am the AC who wrote this comment. I am not Pooya. I am another friend of his. Nethack sucks.

Just in time...

[Anonymous Coward]

For a weekend when the moon is new and luck will be bad and the Iraqis will have war brought to their doorstep.

There is a new interface that plans all this

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a new interface for nethack that plans great graphics/sounds and interface.

at the moment it still only supports tilsets and a fake 3d-ascii view, but it's only on v0.2.
as far as tilesets go it supports all tilesets from other interfaces, from glhack to gnomehack to falcons eye.

check it out : at http://noegnud.sourceforge.net/

please post

[Anonymous Coward]

Can someone post some screenshots? ;-)

Oh piss off you bleeding heart imbecile

[Viol8]

Talking to yourself in your head , sorry I mean "praying", is very easy. If you're so concerned why don't you go and stop saddams republican guards from killing more of his own people. Or is it because actual *practical* solutions are too difficult for people like you and you'd sooner pray to some mythical diety. Why not just pray to Thor while you're at it , maybe he can smite everone with a lightning bolt.

Modern 3D-Accellerated Version!

[RPoet]

If you don't like the traditional ascii rendering of the game, there is now a complete port of nethack to use a 3D-accellerated, high-resolution display engine which will keep you on the edge of your seat! See screenshot, and drool!

Re:Modern 3D-Accellerated Version!

[Xpilot]

That's a joke, but if you want a colorful graphical version, try out Falcon's Eye.

Re:Modern 3D-Accellerated Version!

[Malic]

I wish it wasn't a joke! I'd play it that way!

Re:Modern 3D-Accellerated Version!

[Anonymous Coward]

it's not a joke another screenshot from that same interface using falcons-eye tileset ...

http://noegnud.sourceforge.net/shots/20030224-01.j pg

it has mutiple display methods, that's just the 3d-ascii view.

Re:Modern 3D-Accellerated Version!

[WNight]

Read the message under your parent post. It's not a joke.

Nethack? duh...

[archeopterix]

I would play it, but the user interface is too bloated. I'd like something like that:

You find yourself on an empty tile.
Looking northwest you see a large chest.
A grid bug approaches you from southwest.
There's a curved wand 2 squares to the north.
>

Re:Nethack? duh...

[mselmeci]

In all seriousness, that would be a cool idea. For one thing, it would be harder to tell that you're playing it.

Gee...

[CAIMLAS]

I can't wait to check out all the new features.

Direct Descendent?

[SlashdotLemming]

"The NetHack DevTeam is pleased to announce the release of NetHack 3.4.1. NetHack 3.4 is an enhancement to the dungeon exploration game NetHack. It is a distant descendent of Rogue and Hack, and a direct descendent of NetHack 3.3."

Does anyone know if NetHack 3.5 will be a descendent of NetHack 3.4? Someone told me that it was going to be a spreadsheet application.

Re:I would not have submitted this

[Quill_28]

I am confused you would not have posted about NetHack or PocketPC's?

Re:Seriously, the bug it fixes is this:

[frankthechicken]

I don't like the look of all those Centaurs, still, at least there ain't no Cockatrices.

Check out the 128x128 tiles

[Walles]

There is a 128x128 tileset that might suit you better. Haven't tried it myself, but it looks good on the web at least :-).

Re:Check out the 128x128 tiles

[Thorkytel Ant-Head]

Haven't tried it myself, but it looks good on the web at least

Are you serious?? Ugh! It looks awful! Besides the varied perspectives (i.e. overhead for queen bee, sideways for others), all of the pictures just look like clip-art pictures downloaded off of the web, with a few basic Photoshop effects added. Couldn't imagine actually playing with that, sorry. Those tiles are in serious need of some style.

WTF?!

[Anonymous Coward]

MOO3 is out?!

WHY WASN'T THERE A SLASHDOT STORY?!

Jumpin CowboyNeal on a Pogo Stick! BRB, going to store!

Turn-based limitations

[TeknoHog]

Firstly, there's already the Falcon's Eye front end to NetHack, which looks and feels something like Diablo.

What would be really awesome is a 3D FPS approach to NetHack. Unfortunately, this wouldn't work because the game is turn-based. You'd have to dumb it down severely to allow FPS gaming.

Besides, NH is like the book that's so much better than the movie based on it, because you have imagination.

Re:Turn-based limitations

[azcoffeehabit]

The turn based limitation could be solved by advancing the time only as your character moved/took action through the dungeon with "idle time" animations to fill in the "time gap". Nethack will be really cool when there is an OpenGL frontend. It will then have it all.

Speaking of NetHack...

[revividus]

Okay, this post was completely off-topic; not only in a nethack thread, but probably anywhere in /., barring the unlikely event that we see an `ask-slashdot-to-entreat-the-deity-of-their-choice -to-intervene-in -world-events' thread....

Attacking someone's beliefs as `mythical' just because they don't know when and where to post them doesn't impress me, somehow. Call it offtopic and leave it at that.

Dying in Sierra Games

[Firethorn]

Come on! Dying in the Sierra games was fun! I used to try to die in every way possible just for the death messages, they were hilarious!

OMEGA

[t0ny]

My favorite game of this type was OMEGA. I really wish somebody would update that, or make a Palm port.

Criminy! A new Lord of Chaos!

That was the best...

Re:OMEGA

[rpresser]

There was a group working on it sporadically from time to time. [I contributed a vanishingly small amount.] They did a lot of impressive code restructuring but didn't quite make it to a release yet. Take a look at their sourceforge page. I seem to remember there was a yahoo groups based mailing list for development too.

Re:OMEGA

[t0ny]

thanks man! I actaully end up on their sourceforge page about twice a year, but never see any new developments, unfortunately.

I had once considered getting CodeWarrior just to make porting Omega to the Palm a learning project. Unfortunately, things at work keep coming up, and my brain cycles are needed elsewhere. I need to upgrade my brain!

I guess I'm not alone, then

[oqti]

I have pretty much similar problem with nethack - it's neither textual, nor graphical.

I like MUDs and graphical RPGs (and obviously pen and paper ones), but nethack is just not it.

Gimme art, or let me visualise it from raw text.

Try Angband

[Anonymous Coward]

Angband has a surface resemblance to Nethack, they're both roguelikes, but it has a very different philosophy. I suspect based on your complaints about Nethack that you would enjoy Angband a lot more. It has a greater focus on tactics. It does allow you to do stupid stuff, and if you're not careful, you're likely to end up intsta-deaths, but those deaths are almost always avoidable if you would have been paying attention, and a good player will learn from those mistakes and not repeat them.

I tried Diablo, it was vaguely interesting at first, but it doesn't have the depth of tactics that Angband does. Instead it's just a lot of clicking on stuff. Only 4 spell hotkeys was definitely not enough to use any useful tactics, instead I ended up using firebolt, healing, guardian, and charged bolt almost exclusively toward the end (although stone curse was necessary on the last level). But Angband requires you to think about how to handle each situation to survive best. And if you find it getting repetitive, you're probably not deep enough :-) although probably the most annoying thing in Angband is having to scum levels for important supplies before you can start heading down again.

Re:Try Angband

[Anonymous Coward]

Playing Angband is like grociery shopping, but more irritating. "Hmm, 1000', really should start scumming for confusion resistance". zAng, at least, eliminates some of that by increasing the number of shops and making random artifacts available to buy, but it doesn't help eliminate the repetitivity all that much.

(sorry.. had to do it)

[Anonymous Coward]

--
I am not a man! I am a free number!

In soviet russia, numbers free YOU!

Re:I would not have submitted this

[qmrq]

Nethack. : )

Re:I would not have submitted this

[Quill_28]

Ok.

News for Nerds. Stuff that matters.

What matters is quite relative, but in the view of nerds I would think computer games would matter to the Slashdot crowd. A
nd as one of the greatest games on all time, NetHack surely deserves some coverage.

Upgrade to ASCII-enhanced card!

[ShortSpecialBus]

Mine too, so I'm gonna upgrade to the 9500 ASC

Preview of 9500 ASC

Busted

[lyle_hanson]

NetHack is cool because you can play it at work... nobody will notice you're playing a game, it just looks like ascii/binary garbage.. :)

Sort of, unless somebody's looking over your shoulder for any length of time. While going to school I had a job doing web development for an administrative department, and when I had little to do I would fool around with nethack, MUDs, etc.

One time I got pretty engrossed with a game of nethack and the lady who sat across from me said "hey, whatcha workin' on?". I mumbled something about "graphical file browser" or something and she didn't say anything else. A lot of the time I had a terminal open so it wasn't THAT suspicious, but I think maybe she suspected that it was some kind of maze on the screen. She was cool, so I wasn't too worried, but it was a reminder for me to keep the nethack under control (at work, anyway).

I can quit nethack any time I want... that's what I keep telling myself.

Been there & vi training wheels

[xixax]

Not only don't they notice, they peer in over my shoulder exclaiming,
"Whow, you guys are always doing such techy stuff, it's amazing..." (spoken with absolute naivety)

And hjkl is why I picked up vi so quickly. So I also describe it as a vi training module. :o)

Xix.

Re:I would not have submitted this

[qmrq]

But is this just a shameless plug? A lot of stories tend to look like that. : (

Re:I would not have submitted this

[Quill_28]

Maybe, if they had anything to gain, but with a NetHack plug what are they hoping to gain?

Like duhhh....

[billstewart]

Kids these days. The misleadingness of the name was _deliberate_. Most of the coding on the early versions of Nethack was done at a highschool, which had typical "you're not supposed to play games on the school computer during class time" rules, and the name was meant to imply "Oh, no, sir, we're not playing games, we're hacking on the network, this isn't the gam3rz process you're looking for!"