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Stallman Meets KDE Team for Tea
fishermonger writes "Trying to imoprove relations, the french KDE team invited RMS to tea at Linux Solutions 2003. From the piece: 'He asked whether KDE people were saying "Gnu/Linux" or just "Linux", and Open Source or Free Software. I told him some of us are using KDE/Gnu/Linux which pleased him as an answer.' Many pearls in the article."
You are a whiney little backstabbing JERK! You ABUSE your position as a slashdot editor for your own personal gain. How could you sell your friends at the CensorWare Project Out?
You will justify this to yourself by assuming I am the only person who thinks your a jerk. That is not true - Most slashdot readers wish you would shut up with your rants. How else could this account ('Michael's a Jerk') get excellant karma? The fact is we are sick of your moderation abuse.
Take This comment. You broke the rules and had more then question per comment. You then modded yourself up to make it into the question list.
Michael: GROW UP OR LEAVE SLASHDOT.
I'm not Seth.
For those interested, a quick googling shows stallamn's blog has listed this for years.
"Trying to improve relations, the GNU/french GNU/KDE team invited RMS to tea at GNU/Linux Solutions 2003. From the piece: 'He asked whether GNU/KDE people were saying "Gnu/Linux" or just "Linux", and GNU/Open Source or GNU/Free Software. I told him some of GNU/us are using KDE/Gnu/Linux which pleased GNU/him as an GNU/answer.' GNU/Many GNU/pearls in the GNU/article."
I'm not Seth.
i always just call it linux no matter what kind I'm using.. do people actually call it gnu/linux rather than linux? or even KDE/Gnu/Linux ??
do you just type it, or actually say "I use gnu linux"
from the gnu/crumpets dept.
I didn't know crumpets were POSIX compatible...
This is strting to get out of hand. Pretty soon it'll be Gnu/Gnu.
And we all know where that leads - a recursive loop from which NO PERSON CAN ESCAPE FROM!
Gnu/Gnu/Gnu/Gnu/Gnu/Gnu - Noooo!
I am a filthy pirate.
I was hoping this article would have a couple pictures of Richard Stallman trying to strangle somebody on the KDE team while being held back by some of his FSF cohorts. I mean, they use kvim and they're developing KDE, which was previously "not free as in freedom".
*sigh* it was still very interesting, but a little disappointing to say the least.
--I don't mind Debian being Gnu/Linux in concept, but trying to make everyone else say Gnu/blah is just stupid.
--Apart from that, props to RMS for his coding contributions and efforts for Free Software.
Root!
.
== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
Looks like Stallman has finally sold out. Give him a few more months and that hippie will be working for Mr. Gates.
since GNU software like gcc is the real crown jewel of GNU/linux and since the linux kernel sucks (remember all those lies about how stable and robust the vm or ext2fs are?), the proper name should be GNU/leenucks.
.......we use Klinux and Kemacs to compile Kgnu software. It is pronounced KgnuLinux right?
I thank Mr Stallman for creating all the gnu software and for his vision of having groups of people working with each other and sharing intellectual idea's freely. Linux and perhaps FreeBSD would not be without him.
However his die hard views seem strange. If Linus calls his kernel Linux and not gnuLinux then its called Linux. A name is a name. Who cares? I could call it Katzware! But its still Linux.
Also there are many different kinds of licensing that are ok besides the GPL. The perl artistic license, BSD, X11 community license, etc. I use gnu software under FreeBSD. Does that mean it should be called gnuFreeBSD?
He rails agaisn't anything non gpl including X11 but uses it on his desktop. According to the copyright, his desktop is not offically gnu? He also stated when kde finally under pressure convinced QT to gpl there code, Stallan said they should be beginging for forgiveness! How offensive. I would of expected a thank you from him instead.
Only debian Gnu/Linux is officially gnu because you can chose to select only licenses that are gpl except x11. This is why my FreeBSD box is not offically gnu even though I use gnu software with it.
His dream of free software and a community of sharing is here and he should chill. He got his gnutopia with debian.
To be gnu it all has to be gnu which %99 of all Linux installs are not since they include non gpl software.
http://saveie6.com/
Yeah Dick! Great JAERB!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I (sometimes) use KDE under FreeBSD. And I know people that use it with Solaris, and OSX. KDE doesn't require GNU or Linux, it requires QT (which usually implies X11) X/QT/KDE is more accurate.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
You have to include the (although unlikely) possibility that he orally satisfied himself. Either way, that man needs an O.J.!
GNU!
better.
It is just pathetic to reply to your own posts. loser
Why you may ask? Because im drunk I would answer!
"'He asked whether KDE people were saying "Gnu/Linux" or just "Linux""
Personally, I don't say Gnu/Linux, or even KDE/Gnu/Linux.
When someone asks what I'm using, I tell them I'm using KDE/X-Windows 11/Gnu/Linux/System V/MIT/AT&T/AMD/K7/x86/Intel.
Got to give credit to everyone, RMS told me so, so it must be true!
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
Hmm, never had semen taste in Jiffy. Had it in Peter Pan and Skippy, though.
Les rapports entre Fellini et Rota ont été ceux de deux auteurs qui, par des moyens différents, ont réussi à exprimer des émotions et des états d'âme, des réalités et des fantaisies, avec une indépendance qui n'avait ni racines ni formations culturelles communes.
Leur collaboration eut pour origine une offre que Rota accepta un peu à contrecoeur. Mais cette première rencontre fut très positive. Nous comprîmes alors que nous travaillerions bien ensemble."Ce ne fut pas un choix" rappelle Fellini. "Ce fut vraiment une véritable convergence de deux tempéraments, de deux êtres qui devaient nécessairement, dans la limite de leurs résultats, cohabiter avec l'expression d'un film, rendu plus vital, plus évocateur par la musique".
that one?
Here ya'll go.
h tml
http://people.ucsc.edu/~twilly/tea-with-stallman.
It seemed almost like something out of Bill & Ted's excellent adventure :). Like bringing somebody of renowned ability from the past to the present and showing him what stuffs like. I'm not sure if it was just the way the article was written but it almost seemed like RMS had never used KDE before. When asked how much he used X, he responded "sometimes".
Thats crazy. I understand that you use what you know, but this is a guy who is using emacs as his windowing system. Kind of changes my opinion of him as an all knowing guru.
Note: I'm not dissing his abilities or role in history. He has done shit that most of us could never come close to surpassing. Its just amazing to see how little things have changed for him in the last 10 years.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
And i'm happy to see so in this case. mirror anyone? --TRR
The kernel is of course called Linux.
The operating system on the other hand is GNU/Linux.
the British and U.S. KDE teams have freed the French group. reports say that the French team has started work on libmaginot to prevent this happening again.
Get a room why dontcha!
Vonal Declosion
Michael, if you don't know by now, just ask Timothy.
Sir, would you like some OJ to go with that BJ?
a gnu/rose by any other gnu/name would smell just as sweet.
Winter 2010: With Glowing Hearts
or mayonaise. Unless you catch your roommate jacking off in the refrigerator, you'd never know.
I think the problems are coming from issues of "Intellectual Hygiene"... RMS parses Linux as something that gnu facilitated, and in his worldview gnu is more important and overarching than Linux is. (In the longer term, he may be right). So I guess he feels some cognitive dissonance when its Linux this and Linux that, whereas the FSF and gnu are less honoured.
:-)
Hopefully in the future historians will write this time up as a radical return to the concept of the Public Domain for Public Good, something that has been almost destroyed by Greedy Corporate Fucks. Linux is feted for its direct effects today on the GCFs, as its the most visible sign of the battle, but its the GPL and the gnu concepts that are actually driving it underneath and changing the agenda, IMHO.
Still, even appreciating this, GNU/Linux is a bit of a mouthful
However his die hard views seem strange. If Linus calls his kernel Linux and not gnuLinux then its called Linux.
You are confused, my friend. There is no debate regarding the name of the kernel; it is Linux. However, when you combine the kernel with the GNU C library and the other parts from GNU which makes a UNIX-like system (bash, ls, gcc etc.) you are running GNU/Linux, (or Linux, whichever you prefer).
The world will end in 5 minutes. Please log out.
or it was a girl that posted that... and the expectation was that it was a male only to find it's the girl you've been dreaming of. An anonymous blowjob coward.
To pronounce it correctly, you have to let your lower jaw kind of go slack, and stick out your lower lip. Basically, try to look as much as possible like a cross between Forrest Gump and a friendly cow.
"Guhhhhh-noo!"
The unkempt beard and severe body odor are optional, but strongly encouraged*.
--
In GNU/speak, "optional, but strong encouraged" means "mandatory." Kind of like how "Free" means "strictly regulated."
Berating rules sticklers is stupid. Yes, it would be very annoying if everyone was a rules stickler, but at the same time, they provide us with people to demonstrate implementing ideals, versus just having them on paper. If one takes language, as an example, it would be terrible if everyone on the surface of the planet started typing papers 'l33t. We would quickly reach a point where we couldn't understand each other even in print. There is a reason why you hate that 2nd grade teacher; he or she forced you to learn how to use acceptable grammar.
Without people going to excesses of properness, we wouldn't have supportable ground to stand on for regular situations. People would neglect the "GNU" portions of "GNU/Linux" if it's not spelled out for them from time to time. I agree that it is stupid to say "GNU/" for every single thing that is covered under a form of the GPL, but this sanity check is probably just as important to the entire idea of Linux and free software as the coding sanity checks that the programmers who wrote the apps use. What would be the point in developing under GPL if the entire idea is simply forgotten?
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
However his die hard views seem strange. If Linus calls his kernel Linux and not gnuLinux then its called Linux. A name is a name. Who cares? I could call it Katzware! But its still Linux.
I agree that RMS has chosen an odd battle to fight with this GNU/Linux stuff. However, even RMS isn't trying to get Linus to change the name of the kernel.
The kernel is Linux. You can say "the Linux kernel" or you can just say "Linux". What annoys RMS is that people refer to their whole system as "my Linux system", as if the kernel were the most important part. So he wants people to say "my GNU/Linux system".
There is some justice in his request. If you count how many lines of code in a running system come from the GNU project, you will get a large number. And the compiler we use to build our Linux kernels is from the GNU project.
Presumably, if someone were to port the BSD userland to run over the Linux kernel, RMS would also be perfectly happy to hear people say "my BSD/Linux system".
All that said, RMS will find it to be a losing battle. When I am talking about my personal Linux system, I say "that's my Athlon XP system running Linux". The motherboard, hard disk, video card, and RAM are all pretty essential to my system's operations, and it would I suppose be more correct to say "that's my ASUS A7V333 Athlon XP system with a GeForce 4 and blah blah blah all running GNU/Linux". I just don't, though.
When I was running Windows 98, I usually said something like "my computer with Win98", as opposed to "my computer running Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition". Most people can't be bothered to add on extra syllables.
The kernel really is the most important part, when you are tersely describing a computer, because it controls what software will run on that computer. Adding the "GNU/" prefix is more a sign of respect to the GNU project than a useful classifier that describes the system.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
However his die hard views seem strange. If Linus calls his kernel Linux and not gnuLinux then its called Linux. A name is a name. Who cares? I could call it Katzware! But its still Linux.
RMS has no issue with the kernel's name. He doesn't think that Linus' kernel, the Linux kernel itself should be called GNU/Linux. His problem is that people called entire distros which use the Linux kernel simply "Linux." He has a problem with this because a big part of any Linux distro is a bunch of GNU software. He evidentally things that any user of Linux should be forced to pay him in respect and homage by calling it GNU/Linux instead of simply Linux. Afterall, the kernel is a very small part of it. But if we're talking about how much of what makes up a distro, Linux should be probably be called XFree/Linux86 before GNU/Linux, at least in terms of total KLOC in a distro.
Are you sure he uses XFree86 on his desktop? I imagine that RMS gets by perfectly fine without using any non-GPL software... I wouldn't be surprised if he did use non-GPL stuff, but he's not your average 16 year old Windows convert- he doesn't need XFree or KDE or GNOME or even WindowMaker.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
i bet you've got hairy balls!
If that's the case, I'd like to learn his secret.
That's "Freedom KDE Group", to ya'all!
If Linus calls his kernel Linux and not gnuLinux then its called Linux.
Its not Linux (the kernel) that RMS is calling GNU/Linux. He calls linux linux just like anyone else. What he is calling GNU/Linux is all the distrubutions which are made up from the GNU project together with the linux kernel (and usually some other stuff)
Most people call the distributions just linux, which is fine (I personally think people can call things whatever they like) but I find it does cause confusion sometimes. eg "I'm downloading a new version of linux" can mean redhat 9 for example, or it can mean linux-2.5.68.tar.gz
RMS idea of saying GNU/Linux does avoid this confusion while at the same time giving credit to the GNU project. (After all, any given distro probably contains more lines of GNU code than Linux code (in fact emacs probably does that alone!))
However, I prefer to be even more specific and just use vendor names. "I'm downloading a new version of debian" is pretty unambiguous and avoids the whole linux vs gnu/linux problem.
-- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz
are soon martyrs to their partisan causes.
Sorry to use "partisan" in the neo-conservative manner, but Slashdot routinely invites me into the unspoken debate whether RMS is the "arbitor elegante" of the entire ideology, or just the Derek Smart of (to displease everyone) "Alternative Software".
Please, Slashdot, explain to me how publishing these persistant articles re:
"RMS is a weird monster driven by a cult of personality that exists in his own mind"
aren't editorial choices. Either say that RMS is a freak, or don't, this weird "I know she's my ex-girlfriend but I might need to screw her someday" attitude is -so- 1997.
-dameron
http://saveie6.com/
Don't mind me im drunk but wouldn't it be fun to have a post for geeks to give geeks advice about sex. sex.slashdot.org
Go together like...
Mix the failings of Usenet with the shortcomings of the World Wide Web and the result is slashdot.
I once sat with Stallman for tea and discussed French KDE teams. He was not pleased with them, saying, "I prefer to use the term 'freedom' KDE teams."
Plus, he's a womanizer.
Somebody WANTS bad karma..
But I use the GNU toolchain on both, so I guess I use GNU/Linux and GNU/Windows but I'm thinking about replacing GNU/Linux with GNU/BSD
I/O, I/O, its off to disk I go, with a read and a write, and a bit and a byte, I/O, I/O, I/O, I/O
Gng's not Gng...
From the article:
He just points out that the FSF actually does not recommend C but recommands against C++!
Oh, so which language is recommended? Java? Assembly?
I used to be able to do that when I was in high school. Seriously. I went through this spurt (ew; no pun intended) during puberty where my dick grew faster than my body did. I was this little five-foot-tall kid with a 7" cock.
Of course, my cock hasn't grown a bit since then, so I'm just average today, or even a little below if you figure in that I'm 6'1". But back then, I was hung like a fucking grizzly.
And yeah, I sucked my own dick. I mean, why not? It felt good! I thought cum tasted nasty, but I like the feel of cumming in my own mouth, so I did that, and then spit it out into a kleenex when I was done.
When I was about sixteen, I grew out of it. I couldn't reach my dick any more. I could still lick it and kiss it, but I couldn't get it in my mouth. That was a pretty depressing time. About that same time, I got my first real girlfriend, and I tried to get her to go down on me. I'd been doing it to myself for years, so I thought it would be no big deal. I was wrong. It was a big deal. That sucked. I eventually talked her into it, but it took some serious persuading. Girls are a lot of work, man.
When I was in college, I got drunk with a floor-mate of mine. While we were shitfaced, he told me that he was gay, and asked me if I wanted to fool around. He said he'd blow me if I did him back. I was drunk, so I figured what the hell? I'd done it before, right?
I learned something weird that day: sucking a dick doesn't feel good! When I used to suck myself, it felt good (duh). So I associated having a dick in my mouth with getting off. But sucking this guy didn't feel good at all. I mean, it wasn't bad or anything, but it wasn't fun either. I did an okay job I guess, because he came and all. I swallowed and everything. I mean, shit, if you're gonna do it, do it right, you know? But after that, I didn't really care about cock-sucking any more.
I've been able to totally use this to my advantage, though. I got LOTS of girls to suck my dick by becoming friends with them and then talking sex with them and telling them about the time I sucked off my friend. Sometimes it gets em hot, but more often it just makes em kinda realize that if a guy is willing to do it himself, it must not be that bad. So they try it, and they end up hoovering me real good.
So my advice to you guys is this: tell your girlfriends that you suck dick! Seriously! You don't have to actually DO it, but if you try it once you'll be able to convince them you're telling the truth. Then you can say, "Hey, baby, it's no big deal." And she'll be like, "Whatever. How do you know?" And you'll be like, "Well, let me tell you..." and then the next thing you know you've got two handfuls of her hair and you're spurting jizz into her throat.
Hmm. I didn't really mean to tell you all that stuff. Oh, well. That's what I get for posting when I'm stoned.
Mike
I thought he was dead already. :( What a sad day this is...
Slashdot - where advice on removing the taste of semen from your mouth is "redundant."
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
I hate to say it, but why is RMS treated like some vengefull god who needs to be kept satisfied?
Sure, he has made some great software which many of us use every day, but why should we care if he is crying about the name we call our OS?
RMS, thanks for the software, now take a chill pill, and go sit in the corner and try to recover from your hyperventalation.
Just because we call it Linux does not mean that we have all forgotten the contribution of the FSF, it is just an easy name that everyone recognises. GET OVER IT!
hell yeah! Not as much fun as having sex, but more fun than discussing legos or functional programming languages.
Two paragraphs and already three grammar/syntax mistakes. Are those French unable of speaking a foreign language?
(I is French)
The original GNU-system kernel was Alix (eponymous of one of RMS's past girlfriends).
Alix was chased away by the HURD (CM Mach) which was in turn vanquished our charming hero Linux . . . (meanwhile, Alix lies asleep, imprisoned in the dark tower as the HURD patiently plots its revenge).
--TRR
I may have my issues with both KDE and RMS, but the simple fact that we live in a world where they can sit together for tea, exchange ideas and criticisms, and nobody is arrested for thought-crimes speaks volumes.
Maybe they'll never agree. But at least they can co-exist, and that's better than the alternative.
Slashdot... where eating your neighbor's shit is "redundant"
I don't understand why RMS makes such a big fuss over the name Linux or GNU/Linux. After all, GNU doesn't suppy all of the software (though they did supplied a large number of them). Remember there are Apache, Mozilla, MySQL, etc.... I prefer to call Linux just plain simple 'Linux' - it's more affectionate anyway, than to call it GNU/Apache/Mozilla/MySQL/..../Linux
Go wack off to a gnu/linux/apache gay website.
Anyone see any parallels to what Hans Reser was suggesting just a few articles ago? Stallman wants credit for GNU (mostly to further his political agenda) and Reser wants them slapped everywhere for everyone.
:)
I use GNU/Linux, but only in writing. Of all the distributions out there, only Debian and Mandrake seem to actually do that as well. Debian's obviously strongly attached to the free software philosophy. Mandrake, while a commercial entity, is struggling to keep everything in it's distribution free too. Their installer even sports a GNU logo.
Red hat is the only major distribution that has stayed truly free in addition to them.
You can deduce a lot from whether or not someone uses GNU/Linux in an official manner. It's instantly says something about their values. You won't see even Linux strapped on distributions like Lindows that want no part of the free software thing and would like to lead the public to believe that they're not even selling Linux, but something better they've come up with all by themselves.
GCC: GNU/Crumpets (Compatible)
Try our GCC! Completely ISO-C (ISO Crumpets) compatible. Has many flavors (languages)! However, may not be fully compatible with all CPUs (crumpet processing units).
You could just say "Debian" or "Slackware" or "RedHat" or "Gentoo", for example.
Names give things power, gives them shape and meaning and context.
Linux is the kernel. That's all.
GNU softawre is GNU software. A large portion of it is used in any distro, it's unavoidable, and to use the name GNU/Linux is to give GNU credit where credit is due.
Note, i don't necessarily say GNU/Linux, but I do say Debian or RedHat, etc.
I use Fink; among other things, it's a port of the GNU system onto OS X. Fink is not a port of Linux onto OS X, and you'd never say, "I installed Linux on OS X with Fink".
To be clear, I haven't used Linux for nearly 3 years; I use Debian!
GPL Deconstructed
Ever since the introduction
of computer aided grammar no one has needed to be well educated in language arts. Least of all Americans, or computer programmers. The exception is lawyers, who for reasons of employement need great language skills. That is the reason why a jounalist today needs a publisher with good legal represention.
"If you do not agree sue me, I need the publicity!".
The war cry of todays jounalists.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
RMS is one interesting character. Here's a guy who has devoted his entire adult life to writing free software for others; rails on "freedom" at every opportunity as his single driving prinicple; and harbors an intense hatred for things he interprets as threatening to "freedom" (i.e. all companies and most politicians). And after all that talk about "freedom", he's perfectly willing to be a dictator when it comes to something unimportant like a name.
Not judging the guy, just can't figure him out.
This is true up until the point of what most people say when they're downloading linux-2.5.68.tar.gz.
Virtually everyone I've known says "Linux kernel", "the kernel", or just "2 5 68" in that context. Why? Because you need to be more specific since almost everyone uses "Linux" to refer to either. That includes kernel developers (certainly not all of them, I've heard GNU/Linux there too, although not especially often). Like many brand names, the "Linux" term was (long ago) stretched to cover a wide array of products when they are collectively running on top of Linux.
But, if people want to look a little silly (not a huge deal, to each his own) and call things GNU/Linux, that's their right. Just don't behave like the bloody thought police. I've had people send me notices asking me to change web pages, other persons have even declined to work with the Linux Standard Base project on the basis of the name (since it covers libraries above the kernel), etc.
My pet peeve isn't that people call it GNU/Linux. It's the people who tell me what to call it.
*sigh*
It's great that this meeting took place. Since KDE is now 100% Free Software there is no reason for any serious contention.
I have no relationship with RMS or the Free Software Foundation, but I would like to respond (perhaps preemptively) to some of the common anti-RMS flames that inevitably come up in any discussion involving RMS.
Anti-RMS argument #1) "I don't like RMS because he says GNU/Linux instead of Linux."
It may be quixotic of RMS to want this, but it is certainly not malicious, and he has presented solid ethical and practical reasons for his argument. Essentially, by including GNU, we give acknowlegement to the philosophy of freedom behind the OS, not just to the individual who provided leadership in creating one important part of it, the kernel.
This angers some people because they feel he is "telling them what to do." He's not telling you, he's ASKING you, and he has provided good ethical arguments supporting his position. If you disagree, fine, but don't say that he's "telling you what to do." He's not.
Others feel he is slighting Linus Torvolds... this is hardly the case, RMS always gives Linus high praise for his leadership in creating the Linux kernel. In the unlikely event that everyone did start saying "GNU/Linux," Linus would still be the only person (that I know of) whose name is the basis of the name of a major OS.
Anti RMS argument #2) "RMS is too much of an idealist / extemeist"
Can we please give the man some credit? Because of his "extremism," KDE is now free software instead of proprietary. Without RMS and his "extremism" I think it is likely that Free Software would be a truly marginal movement today, rather than the large scale success it has become.Anti RMS argument #3) "RMS is too biased towards the GPL, other free software licences are just as good." OR "the GPL isn't as free as some other licences", etc.
Only a tiny minority of people who make this argument understand what they are talking about. Please read about and try to get a basic understanding of the issues involved. I did, and once I did I was surprised to find myself in agreement with RMS.Anti RMS argument #4) "GNU/Hurd is so late, it will never get working, blah blah blah."
Yes, eveyone knows GNU/Hurd is late... so what? Nobody's suffering waiting for it, they can use the Linux kernel. This is part of the beauty of Free Software. We don't need to wait for a central authority to create tools we need... we can get them from other people or do it ourselves.
* * * *
I think that the more you understand the issues involved, the more you understand how critical it is to be aware of the PHILOSOPHY behind free software, not just the "coolness" of it. The main purpose of free software is to help us remain free, not just to be good practical tools or to save us a few dollars (though these are also important).
I have met many people in person who express a negative view of RMS and/or the GPL. Most of the time, once they learn about the issues involved, the majority change their views. I implore anyone who feels negativly about RMS to at least read about the FSF philosophy.
hah! http://www.debian.org/ports/#nonlinux
'Debian' ne 'GNU/Linux'
The guy is still GNUTS though...
people get excited about calling it gnu linux or
some variation.
In practice glinux is tossed around fairly often in the same way w32 is tossed around for softie. I guess everyone can argue whats right or wrong. Things move on regardless.
You're quite correct, the kernel itself is called linux. However, as a complete operating system it is known as GNU/Linux, because it uses the gnu tools.
All the tools on Linux (among others) such as ls, mv, cp, gcc etc., are part of the GNU set, and as (the argument goes) these tools are a major part of the OS, they should be acknoweldged as such.
So GNU/Linux is an Operating System using the Linux Kernel and the GNU Tools.
I'm not entirely sure that I agree with that, but, hey, A rose by any other name and all that jazz...
saying Microsoft/Windows. Everyone I know just calls it windows. Doesn't matter about the rest, if you say windows people know what you mean.
Just like if you say Linux, they understand what you mean. The Gnu/ part is implied, just like the Microsoft/ part.
There are some misunderstandings that remain unaddressed in this thread. The followups, I'm glad to see, display an understanding of the issues described in the GNU/Linux FAQ. I hope to clear up the issues I spotted which remain. All spelling in the quotes is in context.
That's great. I hope you'll understand he's asking people to use the name GNU to get a share of the credit he (and many other people) think the GNU/Linux operating system is due. There is a technical advantage to distinguishing between the kernal and the rest of the OS here as well--it helps people speak more clearly about what they wish to address and thus avoid confusion.
Actually he objects to the use of non-free software. He has no quarrel with non-GPL licenses so long as they are Free Software licenses. RMS might believe the GPL is a superior Free Software license to other Free Software licenses, but that does not stop him from recommending the use of Free Software under a variety of non-GPL licenses.
XFree86 is one example: XFree86 is Free Software so RMS doesn't object to its use and development. He goes further than that, actually. He is on record encouraging people to contribute their time and effort to it even under its non-copylefted Free Software license (the MIT X11 license). Unfortunately I don't have a specific pointer to precisely where the question arises, but if you listen to the Q&A sections of the history of Free Software talks, you'll hear him tell a questioner why he recommends against making a GPL-covered fork of XFree86.
I attended a lecture on Halloween a couple of years ago at the University of Chicago in which he said he talked briefly about the differences between Debian's Free Software Guidelines and the set of licenses it deems acceptable and the FSF's definition of Free Software and the set of licenses it deems acceptable. There is overwhelmingly large overlap but the two are not the same. So, no, he didn't get precisely everything he wanted with Debian but that didn't stop the FSF from pitching in (money or resources, I've forgotten which it was) to help get Debian started. Perhaps when GNU/Hurd is ready for ordinary users to use some people will make a GNU distribution that includes only Free Software as defined by the FSF.
However there is a more important issue at stake here: The Free Software community is constantly under attack from those who seek to compete with Free Software by making Free Software illegal or impossible to use and share. Patents on algorithms used in computer software (so-called "software patents") and the recent so-called "Super-DMCA" bills (now laws in many states) sweeping the US are examples of how laws can trump what you can do in your home with standard-compliant equipment and software hooked up to lines you pay to use. I'm not sure exactly what "chill[ing]" would entail, but it sounds like you want him to let his guard down and believe he has accomplished his goal. Far from it.
Some of the most important hurdles the Free Software community has yet to jump are legalistic and require becoming informed and putting aside some political differences to work together and defeat well-organized monied interests. These are not problems we can solve with our clever coding talents alone. The software the community put together, the community the GNU GPL built (which I believe will be perhaps his most important legacy) require eternal vigilance and, in exchange, can grant us one of the best things in the world: freedom.
Digital Citizen
Maybe so, but it remains quite infortunate. Language is the means with which we think. If that deteriorates, thought deteriorates. Where would we be if programming errors were taken as lightly as grammar errors?
http://everything2.com/?node_id=969638
RMS calls the kernel "Linux" as well.
The rest of your post is just as confused.
hey, at least it wasn't goatse again...
Stalin meets KGB team for tea?
Didn't think so... I better go to bed.
I'm a minister!
...but any pearls in the tea?
Okay, it may just be the mushrooms I had earlier, but RMS seems very small compared to the others. Perhaps this is the source of his odd psychosis? A short-man syndrome, a Napoleonic complex?
I wonder.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Where would we be if programming errors were taken as lightly as grammar errors?
Running Windows...
Anti RMS argument #5) "The guy's a fucking loon."
"If Linus calls his kernel Linux and not gnuLinux then its called Linux."
RMS doesn't care what Linus names his kernel. RMS does care what name people use to describe the operating system that fundamentally matches the project he started twenty years ago.
It bothers me to use "Linux" as the name of a kernel *and* the name of a class of operating systems. That's just plain confusing.
Doesn't it also seem strange to name an operating system after its kernel, which was named after a single kernel developer? And when looking for a name for all Linux-based operating systems, it's striking that they all (AFAIK) are based on the GNU project. Nobody is bundling Linux with FreeBSD tools, are they?
Calling a large class of operating systems "Linux" just seems strange to me, since Linus had very little to do with any of them. He wrote a kernel, and (with the "help" of a friend) name it Linux. And that's the only part of operating systems that Torvald's really seems to care much about (it's not even clear that he cares about every subsystem in "his" kernel). So why call any complete operating system Linux? As far as I know, Linus does not have his own distrobution.
-Paul Komarek
I'm pretty sure emacs has paid attention to SIGWINCH for many years now... Not being a KDE user, I don't have konsole, but I just ran emacs 21.3 in an xterm (emacs -nw), and emacs resized properly when I resized the xterm window. Also works in a PuTTY ssh session.
Dude - get a life.
Twirlip? Is that you, man?
Translation (the Italian -> French -> English might be a bit dodgy in places).
In 1952 for the first time the signature of the composer Nino Rota appeared in a film of Frederico Fellini. The film was "The White Sheik", which is also the first film Fellini made solo. The artistic friendship continued without interruption until "The orchestra's rehearsal" in 1979, the year Rota died.
The collaboration between Fellini and Rota was that of two authors who, in a different way, both managed to express emotions and states of mind, realities and fantasies. Both did independently using no common cultural root or education.
The origin of this collaboration was an offer that Rota only accepted half-heartedly, but this first meeting was very successful. "We understood we would work well together -- this was not by choice however", recalled Fellini. "This was really a convergence of two temperaments, two beings who would, within the limit of their output, live together with the expression of a film, made more vital, more
evocative through music".
but given he's a communist - yes, the ideals behind the GPL are communism, no matter how much many out there would prefer to deny it
The key word to the whole show - which is absent from your post entirely - is "control". The GPL is designed to stop anyone being able to take or exert control over the software in a way that cannot be subverted by anyone who feels strongly enough about it. I guess you can draw a line between that kind of egalitarian thought and the dictionary definition of communism, but its kind of meaningless, since all the communist states I know of are from the start run by a clique which took control and ruthlessly maintained it pretty much indistinguishably from a Fascist state. The GPL's built in prinicple of enshrining subversion makes a comparison either way useless.
Sadly, Stallman's driven to destroy the livelihood of an entire section of the IT world. I guess the programmers who want to earn a living will have to move to India to become call-centre support staff
Yes, a lot of software which is paid-for at the moment is going to get replaced by GNU software as you imply. But then programmers can springboard off these enhanced resources at zero cost to make greater progress than is possible if every little thing has to be paid for. Americans are famed for being able to be enterpreneurial, positive and to find opportunities in difficult situations: why not consider the possibilities opened to you by these kind of free resources for you to do what you like with? Because thanks to the work and ideas of Stallman, you've got a blank cheque to use fantastic GPL stuff like the GNU toolchain, the whole Linux kernel to make your money with.
This post is for Twirlip! Gone, but not forgotten!
Keep hope alive!
Hibernia Player:
.
No! Not the Knights Who Say Gnu!
Casterhald:
The Same!
Hibernia Newbie:
Who are they?
Subedei:
We are the keepers of the sacred words: Gnu, Peng and Neewom.
Lorhald:
Neewom!
Wise Hibernia Player:
Those who hear them seldom live to tell the tale.
Rathgar:
The Knights Who Say Gnu demand a sacrifice!
Hibernia Player:
Knights of Gnu, we are but simple travelers who seek the relic stored beyond these woods.
Lorhald:
Gnu! Gnu! Gnu! Gnu!
Guess who couldn't get a date on Saturday night . .
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
For my part I wonder why it's "GNU/Linux" instead of "Linux/GNU".
;-)
When you think of the constitution of an OS, you first have the kernel, then the tools, then the GUI/DE. Isn't this the more logical order of listing them than vice versa? Kinda from the root up, so to speak.
In the same vein, "Linux/GNU/KDE", if one wants to go that far, and "HURD/GNU", and so on.
Anyway... maybe "Debian GNU/Linux" can look more natural than "RedHat GNU/Linux" just because Debian is for techies anyway
RMS.. your a twat.
I usually dont flame but god hes got something up his ass on this one. Hes only being detrimental by bing so nitpicky about words. ITS THE CONCEPT STUPID. Who cares if they call it Toenal-OS, its still the same damn thing and the same danm concepts. Quit trying to pat yourself on the back and check your ego at the door >_
"Stuff... In my home!? NEVER!" - Zim on Invader Zim
"I want the toilet seat!" - Little Dog on Two Stupid Dogs
Alan
Well isn't Linux (as in the kernel) licensed under the GNU? Yeah. So therefor it's GNU/Linux. Just it's to much to say so everyone just calls it Linux.
And what did RMS or any of the other FSF members do so deserving to Linux(as a whole system) that deserve such a name change?
Most software for the distro's are made by individuals or groups of individuals who are not affiliated with the FSF at all. They just happen to release there products mostly in a gpl license and thats it. Also many apps are released under freeware or bsd licenses in a Linux based distro. X for example is a huge part.
RMS can call his groups of software "gnu" but he should not impose this on anyone else for that reason. Its not his.
Again I respect his work and the fsf gnu-tools are important no doubt. But the kernel, X, and many of the other componets are important as well if not more then his set of tools. How many components are not released by the fsf? KDE is included on this list for that reason. Yes its now gpled but its not run by, funded, or affiliated with the FSF.
People should not call everthing GNU because its confusing. An os is really a suite and not just a kernel. This is why I refer to Linux as Linux and "the linux kernel" as the kernel. I will not refer to kde now as gnu/kde either.
Gnu/Debian is funded directly by the FSF so I will call it GNU/Debian.
THe GPL clearly states that any gpl piece of software must fully stay GPL. Not, this piece is proprietary and this is gpl. Its all or nothing. Since only Gnu/Debian comes close not to mention is part of the FSF group that I call it GNU.
http://saveie6.com/
Only debian Gnu/Linux is officially gnu because you can chose to select only licenses that are gpl except x11.
I heard that argument before, and I don't understand it at all. If Debian is GNU, then it's text mode only (+svgalib/fb) system, so all X application should be outside Debian. If they are in Debian, then it's not pure GPL. Then how it differs in being GNU from other distros, like Slackware?
http://saveie6.com/
RMS has a beard.
While I highly respect RMS for his vast contributions to the community, I find his biggotery about naming, programming languages, text editors and graphical environments pretty much useless. Does he want to show the world that real men do not use X? That everything should be done in emacs and that other editors are inferior, or maybe even evil? RMS, wake up, this is the third millenium. Why do you want to create divisions inside the open source community? Why do you want to give weapons to closed source vendors who will jump on the opportunity to exploit the division that you hint at? (OSS vs. Free Software, GNU vs. the world, C vs. C++ vs. whatever, etc.) How does that help?
Now we're gonna have to call it Freedom Linux.
To see the damage that he does to himself, just look at the hideous slagging he's getting by some of the posters here. Here, on Slashdot, most of the folk can reasonably be assumed to be pro free software and the GPL, yet still we get this internecine war evertime RMS is mentioned. And it all comes down to his attitude over "Gnu/Linux".
Stallman doesn't seem to see how petty this makes him look. Which wouldn't be so bad, except that linked as he is with the free software movement, it reflects badly on the movement as a whole. Given RMS' skills as a publicist, I find myself wondering whether he is unaware of this effect, or if he simply places a higher priority on having first billing.
Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
And you're happy with this kind of stupid stuffs? This things are what will kill Linux and OpenSource... I mean GNU and free software. GPL, GNU, free software and open source just SUCKS a big one. I was a strong believer on the GNU... but not anymore, free software community is a shit, people want anything for absolutely free and it sucks... there is not life for free software developers... face it.
Good points as such.
;-)
But I bet the commercial distro vendors are very happy that the big public has just one easy name for everything you mentioned. "GNU/Linux" on the retail box would confuse those buyers who don't want to know anything beyond "I point and click, right?" of the OS, and the vendors know that.
Ditto with giants like IBM and HP. They're happy to pack all the hype into just one simple buzzword.
Those are some reasons to call a complete operating system Linux. Maybe not "good" reasons, but existing reasons anyway.
Moreover, I don't think "strictly rational and logical" has quite been the invariable norm in the long tradition of software project names. Write this "Linux OS" incident off as another case of hacker humor
The core communist concept: from each by their ability, to each by their need.
The communist structure is very common in marriages, nuclear families, extended families, small communities... the less people, the more connected they are, the more this communist principle is carried out. Small to medium sized communist communities are quite common in history.
Some of the same problems that communist communities have scaling are probably the same problems Free Software projects have -- though of course without the economics of scarcity, Free Software goes much further before it hits those barriers.
Perhaps you are kernel developer, or perhaps a programmer like me who have been conditioned to think that the kernel is unquestionably important. But the users don't think in this way; they think what is right: namely, the most important part of the computer is Netscape, OpenOffice, etc,.
And rightly so! If I want to use Netscape, it makes no big difference to me if the kernel is Linux or, freeBSD. Same thing if I want to use Java, gcc, make, Gtk, perl, etc., What is the dig difference between Linux and BSD anyway? For the vast majority of things, there is little difference.
Or look at other prominent examples of our daily life.
We call that car a "Toyota" , even if the engine is from GE.
We call that computer a "Dell", even if most parts from Intel and Taiwan.
We call that person as "John", even if he is useless without liver, heart, eyes, and hands.
We can go on forever. But unless you are a doctor and care most about his type of live, we will normally we call John as John -- and a GNU system as GNU .
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Also there are many different kinds of licensing that are ok besides the GPL. The perl artistic license, BSD, X11 community license, etc. I use gnu software under FreeBSD. Does that mean it should be called gnuFreeBSD?
I think you've both missed the point and stumbled upon it at the same time. To most of us, the Artistic, BSD, Apache, and other licenses are all acceptable as they allow us to use, modify, and/or distribute code for free in ways acceptable to us. For many of us, the GNU GPL is the same way. To Stallman, however, other licenses are NOT acceptable (even though he ends up using them apparently) because those licenses don't provide adequate "protection" (and in his writings "protection" varies depending on his issue at the moment: protection from corporations taking advantage, protection from DRM, etc.). The rest of us are more pragmatic.
On the Gnu/Linux naming thing, remember that Stallman's original goal was to create a whole Unix-like OS. His blind spot here is that GNU still doesn't have an adequate kernel after 20 years of work (HURD? give me a break). While his goal is a completely GNU GPLed OS, he seems to be unable to face the reality that GNU still isn't a complete, and people have to add significant pieces to it to make a working OS. Red Hat Linux, Debian GNU/Linux, et al. have to add substantial software from Linus and friends, BSD, the public domain, and other places to make even a minimally working OS. And then you have to add nice things like non-GPLed (or GPLed but non-GNU) software like XFree86, Apache, etc. in order to get an operating system that can get real work done. It's sort of like Steve Jobs's "reality distortion field" effect: Stallman lives in a slightly distorted reality where things that can't be done with GNU software probably aren't worth doing. The rest of us don't have the luxury of such a worldview.
--Mythos
...here on /. - why? What is so wrong with trying to make people give the GNU project som cred?
It seems like people think RMS is out to make Linus call the kernel GNU/linux - no! He just wants the systems to be reffered to as GNU/linux. And where would the linux kernel and the distros be today (or would they be at all?) without gcc, gdb, glibc, binutils and so on...?
Personally I try to always write GNU/linux - but in daly speech it's usually just "linux" for me to.
I implore you to denounce this raving lunatic as not yourself.
He links to your site as if it is his.
i went to the wise man and asked for advice. "what kind of O/S to use, what's really nice?" his beatific smile froze, eyes shrunk like a drunk mole, whispered conspiringly: "emacs on console". "what?!" i gasped, shocked, for how could it be this self-styled geezer freak lecturing me? my gigahertz beige steed sits awaiting the splendor; i had no need for this aging freedom defender. so i maxed out by fat pipe and installed all the ISOs, task bar set one-click to grep google and lycos, hardened and locked down and securely security-patched, wallpapered and skin-toned and alpha blend cross-hatched. and now to get cracking: i had much work to do. had to write some rad shareware and slick manpages, too. had to divine physics laws, apply methods numerical, had to slather my ears w/ songs dull and hysterical. in such a way i passed hours of enjoyment, built up enough skills to muster gainful employment. real world happiness, that's what i achieved, pocketbook full, due to what i believed. but lately i've wondered, is all this enough for me? have i been blind, perhaps i'm too "tough" to see? where is the respect i thought i'd have by now? all these riches yet the hackers don't scrape and bow? they call me a user and sometimes with "l" prefixed. my opinions aren't sought, my postings are simply pre-nixed. dammit what do i have to do to get street cred? lawyer, who can i sue to save embarrassment beet red? bellicose times these are, w/ the lawyers in charge. and still the wise man floats not alone on his barge. maybe i'll join him after all, lay down my wrong role. maybe i can find happiness by using emacs on console.
i went to the wise man and asked for advice.
"what kind of O/S to use, what's really nice?"
his beatific smile froze, eyes shrunk like a drunk mole,
whispered conspiringly: "emacs on console".
"what?!" i gasped, shocked, for how could it be
this self-styled geezer freak lecturing me?
my gigahertz beige steed sits awaiting the splendor;
i had no need for this aging freedom defender.
so i maxed out by fat pipe and installed all the ISOs,
task bar set one-click to grep google and lycos,
hardened and locked down and securely security-patched,
wallpapered and skin-toned and alpha blend cross-hatched.
and now to get cracking: i had much work to do.
had to write some rad shareware and slick manpages, too.
had to divine physics laws, apply methods numerical,
had to slather my ears w/ songs dull and hysterical.
in such a way i passed hours of enjoyment,
built up enough skills to muster gainful employment.
real world happiness, that's what i achieved,
pocketbook full, due to what i believed.
but lately i've wondered, is all this enough for me?
have i been blind, perhaps i'm too "tough" to see?
where is the respect i thought i'd have by now?
all these riches yet the hackers don't scrape and bow?
they call me a user and sometimes with "l" prefixed.
my opinions aren't sought, my postings are simply pre-nixed.
dammit what do i have to do to get street cred?
lawyer, who can i sue to save embarrassment beet red?
bellicose times these are, w/ the lawyers in charge.
and still the wise man floats not alone on his barge.
maybe i'll join him after all, lay down my wrong role.
maybe i can find happiness by using emacs on console.
RMS should be kicked in the ass. The MotherF---ing bastard is just a pain in the fu**** rear of the whole open source thing.
The fat, unkept jerk just goes around wailing and bitching about saying GNU and some sh** like HURD. The The fatass thinks he's too cool cause he uses some crappy command line interface.
And look at the photos in the article (yes, i read it) -- slumped over like a total idiot.
And what the hell is this Free Software / Open source shit? Whatever...
I just wanna murder that friggin GNU/ASSHOLE.
--
Yes, This is a troll.
Wrote most of it.
A GNU/Rose is a GNU/Rose, by any other name... *smirk*
What's the name of the guy in blue on the left? I wish they'd included names with the pictures this time.
Gnu/Gnu/Gnu/Gnu/Gnu/Gnu ... Gnu/Gnu/SegmentViolation-StackOverflow
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Why doesn't people just say 'i run unix'? It solves the whole problem! That the distinctive part of it, unix as opposed to win32 or mac. I can replace the linux kerlen with freebsd and you could keep using kde for hours without noticing anything.
Things have never been quite the same since the Revolution. Fair enough, kick the Roman Church out 'coz it'd been vandalising their economy for centuries, at least (and France would've been a long way from the first to do it - in fact, the RCC have even been kicked out of Italy before, and the Jesuits out of the Vatican (or near equivalent), several times) - but the rest of it was more than a bit over the top, and France has never quite recovered from that, either economically or socially.
Witness France refusing to allow the US (and allies) to rampage around in Iraq, and then subsequently demanding a hand in choosing how the resulting gummint is organised. Chutzpah plus ultra (not that the USA is short of that either).
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
The French are invaded by the Germans a second time after the failure of libmaginot against the "GNOMEkrieg" strategy.
US and UK KDE teams say "what, again?"
The name of the system is GNU.
GNU/Linux is the fork of the GNU OS which uses Linux as the OS kernel.
A GNU application might or might not require a GUI. Thus Xfree does not belong in the name of the system.
However, a particular GNU distribution, one targeting desktop users for instance, might depend on a particular GUI through its core user apps.
So "Debian/Xfree GNU/Linux" is correct while not "GNU/Xfree" is not.
(Just writing "Linux" ignores the possbility that there could be an embedded or propietary operating system, with its own toolchain and API's, which ran on a ported version of the Linux kernel).
Technically, precise system names should only be important if you are doing something like writing a research paper and want to make sure that your audience knows exactly what you are talking about (so they can duplicate your experimental setup and confirm your published results).
People who insist on using this kind of terminology in ordinary conversation most likely have sticks up their butts, as you suggest.
And, as product names go, "Linux" is a lot catchier than "GNU", imho.
--TRR
Isn't the GNU/Linux term really an overstatement?
We all know that Linux is "not Unix".
If we write out the "Gnu/Linux" term, we would get something like "Gnu not Unix/Linux (not Unix)". And since the "Gnu" term is recursive with regards to "not Unix", you can completely skip "Gnu" to remove the reqursiveness (which we wouldn't use in
in daily speech anyway).
You would then have "Not Unix/Linux (not Unix).
Common logic states that we can then remove the "not Unix" part on both sides, which would leave us with "Linux". Which really says it all.
--
Linux Torvalds
I do a lot of work on a Sun450. The OS is solaris, but almost all the tools we use, with the exception of the C library, are GNU.
Yes, GNU needs _A_ kernel, but not necessarily the Linux kernel.
No, the intention of the GPL is to *lower programmer's wages*. Stallman freely states this.
No, he doesn't. Cite one place where he's ever said this.
Now, granted, that's not ALL workers, but given he's a communist
He describes himself as a liberal, not a communist. Of course to some right-wing nutjobs that's the same thing.
- yes, the ideals behind the GPL are communism, no matter how much many out there would prefer to deny it.
So, the ideal of not buying cars with their hoods welded shut is "communist" too, is it?
Or the ideal of having techies paid for services - technical support, and custom programming (which is what a large part of the programming workforce does anyway - most professional programmers aren't paid to work on Office or OpenOffice.) - is "communism"?
If you're not trolling, then you're just a whiner who doesn't realise that no-one gave you the right to have a job handed to you on a silver platter. If someone makes a free replacement for MS Office which is so good that everyone switches over to it - they have just put all the MS Office programmers out of work. Tough. They can now do something more productive with their lives. It doesn't make moral or financial sense to pay them to produce a product which no-one will buy. And that is not "communist" either - that is just free market logic. Same thing happens every year with all kinds of product every year - this is not at all specific to the GPL.
(And I stand by all these points, even though I am pretty much a communist!)
Female Prison Rape in NY
> Linus would still be the only person (that I know of) whose name is the basis of the name of a major OS.
Anything with BSD in its name came from "Berkeley Software Distribution" which of course is named after the city of Berkeley, which itself is named after the philosopher Bishop George Berkeley. Go B go!
(I agree with the rest of your post, by the way!)
Did anyone else read the article and get an overwhelming feeling of how ridiculous the whole situation was? From the initial picture of RMS with his "Jesus Christ(TM) Haircut" and his eyes closed, I could tell how out of touch the old fool is. After reading the article, I have concluded that RMS doesn't even know how to use a KDE/Gnu/Linux system. What an idiot. Why do we waste time with this "has been"?
He asked whether GNU/KDE people were saying "Tomato/Tomahto", "vase/vahse", or "out/oot" (I'm Canadian:)
Semantics. When I name my system, should I say I'm running "GNU/Linux/Mozilla/Netbeans/Apache"? No one is forgetting the GNU contribution to all this... but do we need constant reminding?
Bill
Upon seeing the box was too small, Schrodinger's Elephant breathed a sigh of relief.
How else could you explain the relative ease of Debian swapping out the linux kernel for NetBSD's kernel for Sparc? The distro was otherwise unchanged. The apps had no idea what kernel was running beneath the covers. Indeed, the kernel can be replaced with HURD if need be. GNU's glibc and GCC make that possible.
Personally, I think it's time for someone to rewrite the GNU stuff and make Linux GNU-free just so he can get off his stupid agenda.
Personally, I think you're a moron.
His "stupid agenda" is to give assholes like you high quality free software.
You rewrite all that "GNU stuff" and get back to us.
Talk is cheap, fucko. Your opinion is worthless.
The frickin' "GNU" part is implied and should not be "required" when describing what one is running. I run linux. Period. This IMPLIES that I am running a GNU system. Why? WHAT DISTRO IN THE UNIVERSE DOESN'T REQUIRE GNU LIBS AND TOOLS? There is no such thing as a NON-gnu linux, thus specifically demanding people call it gnu/linux (clumsy, clumsy, clumsy) is redundant and unnecessary. The day there is a NON-gnu/linux in existence is the day when you might wish to delimit your system from that "other" system.
My car is a blazer. I call it a blazer. I do not call it a "chevy blazer" because there is no such thing as a non-chevy blazer. My computer is an athlon system. I do not call it a VIA/MSI/Athlon system. My credit card is a visa, not a "Bank of whatever visa".
The religiousity of RMS is the most off-putting thing about him. I don't do religion. Religion is BOGUS. Religion is NOT a requirement. Don't force religion on me or we will fight. Free/Open software is great...as a development model. It is not now nor will it ever be the ONLY way computer software is handled/developed. Get over it.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
were you expecting to see a sig here? perhaps you'd rather see the inside of an ambulance!
A bit more tax cuts for the rich should do it. American tax payers doesn't mind to pay for rebuilding Iraq anyway. I am sure the French economy is totally dependent on Iraq contracts...
--- guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people ---
Heh. You're presuming that though thought hasnt already deterioratied.
And as far as where we would be - we'd be in a Microsoft World.
I think you misunderstand. RMS isnt asking anyone to call the linux KERNEL GNU/Linux. The Kernel (even if it is licensed under the GPL), is still just 'linux'
What RMS is asking, is that a complete operating system, which may include the linux kernel, and other software, but which MOST of the basic system software, especially the system library and compiler, ARE in fact part of the GNU project (glibc, gcc, etc), have the GNU prepended.
That said, and while I personally like RMS, even he has to admit that its quite a mouthfull to say, and probably will not become common usage, even among techies, let alone the average joe.
... and pulls crumpets out of his @$$
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
RMS idea of saying GNU/Linux does avoid this confusion while at the same time giving credit to the GNU project. (After all, any given distro probably contains more lines of GNU code than Linux code (in fact emacs probably does that alone!))
emacs-21.3-1.src.rpm - 25,084 KB
linux-2.5.68.tar.bz2 - 31,166 KB
Not all conservatives are stupid,
but it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
- Hume
...easy on the eyes he ain't.
damn, rms looks like the hedgehog in that pic.
{{{{shudder}}}}}
"WAH! I won't talk to you unless you say GNU/Linux!" -- RMS
You are still stupid, despite your age. There's nothing honest about writing "RMS is an asshole" on a free software news site.
For the benifit of those who might be confused by your sophestry, I can put down a few of your silly arguments. GNU/Linux works without xfree86 and GNU works withoug Linux too but Linux does not work without GNU. In the world of free software, you just can't do without GNU. Trade press that refers to all free software as "Linux" does a disservice to all other free software and is written either by people without a clue or comercial software shills. It's an oversimplification that can be avoided by being specific. I run Debian and Red Hat, two collections of free software based on the GNU project including the popular kernel Linux. I have also run OpenBSD. The tools from each migrate back and forth because all are free. There you go, nothing pretentious about that is there? I can even pronounce Linux like Linus Torvald says it, though I doubt anyone but you really cares.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
So, RMS doesn't talk to people until asking them the password and talks only after getting the right password. It's getting more and more crazy.
I love GPL and think it's more pure "open-source"-ish than BSDL, but I understand the word freedom differently than RMS. I think that it's up to users (inlcuding developers) to decide what software to use and it's their choice to evaluate if the license fits or not their needs. BSDL is legal license with no cheating of anyone.
Some people are productive only in few very bright ideas in their life. The rest of the life they are crazy. RMS created excelent license, but admit - it's just one of good open-source licenses and the whole open-source movement is suffering from RMS's stand out against BSDL. RMS created Emacs, but admit it - he is the one who pushed people to fork Xemacs and thus almost killed both projects.
Richard, relax and do university teaching (or get back to the good-old code debugging), your activity has no creativity anymore and it's distructive, admit it!
Less is more !
I never say "Guh-new" because it is a waste of time. I usually end up trying to explain what it is to people. As the name for a "software movement" it is a stupid name. The name itself is unfriendly simply in its construction.
It is a:
one vowel
two syllable
three letter word which is an
unintuitively pronouncable
recursive acronym.
Very clever. Very purpose defeating. I love the idea behind it, but I despise "Guh-new". They guh-need to guh-et a guh-nother guh-name.
if you wanna be anal about it, don't stop halfway - the better name would be Linux with the GNU toolchain but that won't please rms and it's too long for most people anyway.
I can't help but thinking of 'Church of St. RMS'. As long as you mention 'Gnu/Linux' in your prayers, all your sins are forgiven.
I think there is still some confusion about the GNU project in the parent post.
"And what did RMS or any of the other FSF members do so deserving to Linux(as a whole system) that deserve such a name change?"
The issue that is being pushed is that there was an operating system called GNU before Linux (the kernel) came out. However, GNU wasn't finished because it was missing a kernel. Then Linux (the kernel) arrived, people tossed it into GNU, and strangely decided to *rename* GNU because of the kernel. That just plain doesn't make sense.
GNU is an operating system. X is an app (well, that and goodies like xeyes). Linux is a kernel. So if you are talking about operating systems that contain all three, it doesn't seem unreasonable to include GNU. It does seem unreasonable, at least to me, not to even mention the principle operating system base for your operating system.
More importantly, GNU is a movement. It's philosophies are an important part of what makes GNU/Linux different than FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD. Linus Torvalds has very little to offer in the way of philosophy, because he just doesn't care. When people think of the "spirit" of GNU/Linux (the operating system), they are primarily thinking of GNU.
Nobody wants everything to be called GNU. However, RMS would appreciate it if *derivatives* of the GNU operating system included a reference to GNU. Think of it as a citation.
-Paul Komarek
he can have citations in an ABOUT section (or AUTHORS or whatever). People don't cite the monkeys that were below rms in the evolutionary ladder when they speak of him.
things evolve. names too. he should learn to live with that.
Don't get me wrong, I've been running various Free *NIXes for 7 years or so, and had a ball, but when you can't call "GNU/XFree/BSD/MPL/Linux" just "linux" for short, and the political correctness of it all is a noteworthy discussion topic, there is something hideously wrong.
People call "Microsoft Windows XP" "XP" for short.
I (along with several million other users) call "GNU/XFree/BSD/MPL/Linux" "Linux" for short.
I think RMS needs to get over it.
The GNU and GPL is only mentioned in just about every manpage, in the C compiler, etc ... its pretty hard to miss.
smash.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Why not satisfy him once and for all and rename it to "LiGNUx" - but keep the same pronunciation? OK - haha - but seriously, do we have to keep hearing this issue over and over? Obviously Stallman deserves a big credit, and the form he prefers is to insure that GNU is not overlooked in the naming of Linux. So - henceforth - "Lignux - the g is silent".
'He asked whether KDE people were saying "Gnu/Linux" or just "Linux", and Open Source or Free Software"
Anybody else sick of hearing him ask this? If he was meeting with KDE shouldn't he at least show some interest in the product? Personally I don't give a fuck whether you call it Gnu/Linux, Linux, Linus' Linux, Free Linux, Not So Free Linux or just plain old Linx.
Look, if you want to subtly needle RMS in a way that he may actually enjoy, do what the KDE folks did: do something clever. Use "KDE/GNU/Linux", or some wilder thing like "Elisp/Emacs/Konsole/Konqueror/KDE/GNU/Linux/Atoms /Universe/?". Cheers.
The above are all true stories.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
KDE is not everyone. They are a company that has benifited extensively from GNU tools and the philosophy behind them. It's not much to ask them and folks like Red Hat to smile at the hand that feeds them. Stallman is intersted in forming and enlarging a community. That won't happen if people grab the tools but forget why they exist. He probably does not care how you are I say things, so long as we have gotten the word. KDE and others are in the best possition to understand and spread that word.
From the description, RMS enjoyed and appreciated the contributions the KDE folks are making and no one got their feathers ruffled.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Part of the problem with this argument which RMS likes is that Linux was not just the kernel. Sure, there was a "linux" tarball, but people who rallied around the effort were interested in getting this kernel to work.
So plenty of work went into making a workable system. This included getting libc to a functional state (which was not functional before the Linux crowd came), getting various system tools developed (mkf2, fsck, apm, pcmcia support, device drivers, util-linux, boot loaders), getting X into a usable shape and so on.
Sure, GNU and X might have written a lot of code before. But it was the Linux movement that made it all happen and come together. The Linux crowd picked up pieces from everywhere they could: the BSD "netkit", the X/Y/Z-modem software (that back in that day *was important*), minicom (again, important on that day), slip to get hooked up to the internet and provide servers, ppp, X11. You get the picture.
And now there is an attempt from rms to rewrite history "Linux was only the kernel" he says. And "GNU provided everything else".
I think Bruce Perens put it best, "Carl Marx did not invent helping your neighbor." It would be different if the government was holding a gun to your head and forced you to release your software under the GPL. Anybody who compares Free Software / Open Source Software to communism does not *really* understand communism - take a couple of bucks and enroll in a class at a local community college.
I think that Stallman places too much importance on GNU/Linux versus Linux but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.
During the Microsoft trial I had to repeatedly explain to people that Windows is not some monolithic product. At least conceptually Windows is an OS, utilities and a windowing system all bundled together. Microsoft has intermingled the code in order to increase the barrier to entry and force resellers to provide only their software.
Could it be that freedom is a noun while free is an adjective?
How about "freed", as in Freed Software.
Liberated works too.
Well, that's what Microsoft calls it.
If it's mandatory, according the Ubergeek, to say GNU/Linux; must you also have a big beard and a pear-shaped body to be a true and righteous nerd?
Open source is the art of letting other people write your bad code.
Maybe they should have shown him KDE running on something other than Linux.
"Do you KDE guys say 'Linux' or 'GNU/Linux'?"
"Actually we say 'BSD/NetBSD'..."
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
He spotted a bookmark named Linux and asked immediately what was in it, Linux or Gnu software ("Should not that be Gnu/Linux) ? It turns out it was just a list of bookmark related to Free Software (freshmeat, linuxfr, dot.kde.org, ...).
GNU's Not Unix. If it were even close, Linux would not be. My distro contains a lot of free, open-source & non-free software for the linux kernel (as opposed to BSD, Solaris, HURD or FUBAR)
Only some of the software for my particular kernel is GNU. I love GNU software. I also love Mozilla, VIM, (gasp) Kylix, Open Office etc. All of those just referenced I used every day.
All compiled for the linux kernel.
Therefore a Linux distribution
GNU/Kylix/Qt/OpenOffice.org/Mozilla/Vim/Linux
RMS - You have to be kidding.
Did you do it as you so often claim "to make the world a better place" or simply so you could be the "Legend" who coded a Unix from scratch?
'Coz it seems like you're really pissed that a whole bunch of non-Gnu hackers achieved what you wanted to do yourself. Seems like a shame.
However, and I mean this absolutely sincerely. Best of luck with the HURD. I hope it turns into a corker of an operating system.
from http://www.stallman.org
I'm a single atheist white man, 50, reputedly intelligent, with unusual interests in politics, science, music and dance. I'd like to meet a woman with varied interests, curious about the world, comfortable expressing her likes and dislikes (I hate struggling to guess), delighting in her ability to fascinate a man and in being loved tenderly, who values joy, truth, beauty and justice more than "success"--so we can share bouts of intense, passionately kind awareness of each other, alternating with tolerant warmth while we're absorbed in other aspects of life. My 19-year-old child, the Free Software Movement, occupies most of my life, leaving no room for more children, but I still have room to love a sweetheart. I spend a lot of my time traveling to give speeches, often to Europe, Asia and Latin America; it would be nice if you were free to travel with me some of the time.
If you are interested, write to rms at stallman dot org and we'll see where it leads.
Probably the wrong place to post his ad, but lets hope it works out for him.
Was there ever a debate? I thought it's always been Richard Stalin's, I mean Stallman's, one-man propaganda.
If he really wanted brand recognition, he's free to change the GPL to require to do so. The fact is that anyone who repackages open source software is free to call their product whatever they want. None of the repackaged Apache out there has the word "Apache" in their names, does the ASF care? No. It's part of the very freedom that free software promises: freedom to name your derived software whatever you want.
Stalin, I mean Stallman, has nobody to blame other than the fact that FSF picked a dumbass brand name. People associate the name Linux with the entire operating system because they want to and they like to. You can't control how the public uses brand names, just ask any trademark lawyers. Many trademarks like Xerox, Kleenex and Aspirin got diluted to common-name status despites the trademark owners tried hard to reinforced that they were indeed trademarks.
This is FREE software that we're talking about, I believe we have the freedom to call it whatever we want.
t bothers me to use "Linux" as the name of a kernel *and* the name of a class of operating systems. That's just plain confusing.
Bullshit. Sophistry, nothing more. The average Linux geek has no problem at all differentiating between the kernel and the OS; the non-geek doesn't even know there's a difference in the first place, nor do they care (or should they).
This shit about 'confusion' that you and some other posters go on about is nothing more than a political ploy, a poor attempt to come up with a legitimate argument for telling the rest of us how to speak and what terms we should use. Your efforts are pathetically shallow, your motives easy to discern.
Why call the complete OS Linux? Because we want to. And that's all that matters.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
And I know *I* am arrogant, so that's something.
:)
Words are defined by people. I too am a person, and by my usage of a word, a word is defined. I am not many people, but I do have influence with the people I hang out with, and they have influence and on and on, via the 6 degrees mechanism. So the whole definition of meaning and minority and majority is always in flux. Linux is the OS and kernel to you. To me Linux is the kernel, and Debian is the OS, since I use Debian. You might use RedHat, so your OS would be RedHat. If you asked me what OS I ran, and I said Debian, would you misunderstand? Probably not.
I have as much power to gainsay the new definition as anyone, since, in a very democratic process, words and definitions are dictated by usage.
So if I look silly and annoying, it's not because I go around telling people how to speak and being an asshole. You're the one here trying to tell me how to speak, by calling me silly and annoying, and calling me an asshole. So look in the mirror first before you go around labeling and calling names
GPL Deconstructed
Bullshit on your bullshit. I'm calling it like I see it. I studied mathematics because I like well-defined systems. Naming an operating system after a kernel is stupid.
I'm guessing that the "average Linux geek" probably can't tell you what "make mrproper" does, even generally. But that doesn't much apply to me, because I'm not an "average Linux geek". If anything, I'm an average GNU geek. You see, most of the time I don't give a damn about the kernel. I primarily interact with the userspace. Even Tru64 becomes tolerable once it is GNU-ified (but only barely tolerable). And Tru64 handles load a hell of a lot better than the Linux kernel. Linux is "good enough", but GNU is the "killer app" (OS) that makes Linux (or most any other kernel) tolerable.
I don't see why you feel so free to second guess my motives. I don't understand why you're so happy to lump me in with other posters. And I never told you how to speak. I presented an argument for why I thought GNU/Linux was both useful and sensible, and then you launched an ad hominem attack.
-Paul Komarek
Once you reach a certain level of income, you basically don't pay tax anyway. You pay accountants to make your tax go away.
Very few people die from gunshot wounds, even in time of war. More people are killed and mained by eating junk, smoking, or being hit by drunk drivers. In times of peace, more people are killed by mis-prescription and other iatrogenesis.
Take smoking, for example. We're dead sure that it sickens and kills millions of people every year, yet the amount of complaining that happens is muffled by the Bush (Clinton, Reagan, etc back to "the year dot") government's need to appease tobacco farmers. Given that repairing dying smokers typically costs around three times as much as the sum total of all of the cigarettes they ever bought, it would be much cheaper for the USA to simply buy every tobacco farm in the world, plow them under and declare tobacco farming/import/export illegal wherever they could. That's just straight economics, it makes no account for pain, suffering and loss.
It scares people to account like this, but it works. One of the small African countries had an enormous drink-driving problem, so they changed their laws. If you were caught driving drunk, they wrote your name down on a list and drove you home. That was all. If your name was already on the list, they shot you. No trial, no appeal, carried out on the spot. OTToMH, they shot something like 58 people in their first year, which was much less than 10% of their previous fatality level (ie, they saved more than 600 lives nett that year, and the ones who died were the offenders), and by that time the problem had essentially gone away. Yet try to enact capital punishment for second-offense drink drivers in any Western country and see what happens!
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
When I say "Linux", what I'm actually saying is "LiGnux" with a silent G.
Problem solved.
No. France - and largely because of France the UN - refused to deal with the problem. Having arrived at a solution (not the best solution, IMESHO, but nevertheless a solution), France now wants to step in and say "OK, we'll take it from here, boys". Not a chance.
BTW, will it help your peace of mind at all to know that I'm not American? Quite aside from the many "own goals" the Yanks kicked during this war, it was approached in a dangerously simplistic fashion and they're not going to deal at all well with the social backlash that's coming. All of that is very bad but doesn't impact the question of France having resigned their right to speak to any solution.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
If a police force refused to arrest a rapist/mugger (the song "Maxwell's silver hammer" runs through my brain at this point, followed by "Excitable Boy", both about the sort of psychopathy France turned their back on), and the army subsequently arrest said rapist, why should the police force then have any say in how the rapist is sentenced?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Once wrote a story Comparing the French to the Apaches on culture. The French lost.
Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock. Will Rogers
Care to give an example? Preferably over the past decade, but really, any time.
Labour -> New Labour came overnight, and basically meant Labour -> Tory, so that doesn't count.
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
GNU predates Linux by 6+ years!
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
Good luck.... Personally, I tend to interact with the GNU part more than with the Linux part... I dual-boot GNU/Linux with Solaris_x86, which has (on my box, at least) a ton of GNU tools from the Solaris Companion CD.
I use GNU far more than I use Linux. I wouldn't go so far as to say I use GNU/Solaris, because SunOS isn't as dependent upon GNU tools as Linux is.
See again the difference? SunOS Linux. Solaris GNU/Linux. Solaris is the UE, though I prefer to use, say, GNU's version of tar above Solaris' version of tar. That gives me a more GNU envionment than a kernel-specific environment.
How many Solaris users here insist on calling themselves SunOS users? None, I'm sure (unless they're using Now, SunOS is the Kernel, Solaris is the UI. Linux is the Kernel, GNU/Linux is the UI.
It's not rocket science.
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
--- guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people ---
Stallman is a genius at creating bad blood and alienating those who would otherwise be his staunchest allies. His ability to annoy is staggering. I guess he must think he is getting his point accross when he gets his audience to dislike him. For him to be going around bitching about the fact that people aren't willing to say "GNU/Linux" is childish. I'm no psychologist, but it doesn't take one to see that there is something not quite kosher when someone is so needful of constant recognition and/or attention. Why else would he care what people call it? It would be one thing if he more or less wished to himself that another name was used, but to go around and berate people about it is just plain irrational if for no other reason than because it hurts his public image and makes others resent him. If he wants recognition there are far more pleasant and effective ways to get it, and if he can't get it using those methods he isn't going to get it period. The man has his priorities a little out of wack it seems. He goes to meet the developers of a Unix desktop that has helped move Unix back onto the main stage again and he makes a big deal out of what name they're using to describe a particular Unix variant? Its fucking irrelevant, least to everyone but him and his disciples. I'm sure he also berated them again about their use of Qt before it was put under the GPL. I'm sure most people remember him asking the KDE developers for an apology when Qt was GPL'd. You'd think he'd be happy, or at least pretend to be for the sake of community, but no he has to take on last stab at them. If I were the KDE guys I wouldn't give him the time of day until he apologized himself. Not for his opinions but for his behavior. At the very least I'd want to see some change in his behavior before I dealt with him. The KDE guys have nothing to gain from Stallman's approval. They need his support about as much as the US needs the support of the UN.
I really do think that a lot of his behavior stems from the fact that there are other people in the free software world that are at least as influential and respected as he is. People who know how to play politics and at least have some grasp of how to influence others. People aren't only listening to him anymore. He doesn't like this and the only thing he can think of to do about it is to be annoying and make a federal case out of things that don't matter. It is true that if someone rants and bitches and is basically no fun to be around that people are going to pay attention to them. But that doesn't mean anyone is listening to anything they're saying. The only reason he's able to get away with this behavior is because of who he is. If he were some no-name hacker (!cracker) no one would listen to him and in fact he'd quickly have his own personal anti-fan club.
Stallman says that he is an Asperger's case and based upon his behavior I believe him. Why else would a 50 year old man have none of the political and social skills that the rest of us master by the time we're 13? What he needs is a press secretary or a PR person to work with him and help him learn (or fake) the social and political skills he needs to leverage the respect and appreciation that even the annoyed like me still feel towards him. If he ever wants to truly be the leader he dreams of being he needs to learn how to lead, and alienating the people you're trying to recruit to follow you isn't how it's done. Someone should send him a copy of Dale Carnagie's "How to win Friends and Influence People."
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Or the ideal of having techies paid for services - technical support, and custom programming (which is what a large part of the programming workforce does anyway - most professional programmers aren't paid to work on Office or OpenOffice.) - is "communism"?
Whenever I see that argument, a couple things leap to mind. First, if such a large percentage of software is written as a service, then there should be no need to spend much time fussing about the other, much smaller percentage of software that isn't written as a service. The other thing that comes to mind is that since RMS argues that software as "product" is immoral, the fact that product developers are a minority means that RMS and the Free Software movement are spending an awful lot of time attempting to inconvenience a minority. You have to wonder why.
But this is tangential to the thread we have here, which is whether or not RMS is a communist. My dictonairy defines a communist as one who advocates communism (duh.). So, we have to look at the definition of communism. The dictionary defines that as 1. "any economic theory or system based on the ownership of all property by the community as a whole". I think you'd have to do some pretty severe mental gymnastics not to equate the Free Software movement with communism on that count, so long as you limit the scope of his communism to software The keyword here is all. You could use that keyword to argue that he isn't a communist because he only wants software to be common. However, if RMS had a natural talent for something else, you have to wonder what kind of rationale he would have come up with for communising property within that profession. It seems only logical that a communist working in a particular field would seek to communize that field, but not others. Therefore, RMS is a communist and the Free Software movement is a communist movement.
At this point, many of you will hold out and say something to the effect that this is a "benign kind of communism, more like communalism".
The dictonairy also states (and I'll paraphrase this one because it's long) that a characteristic of communism is that it seeks to achieve an ideal classeless community via violent, dictatorial means. While the Free Software movement isn't violent or dictatorial, it is certainly coercive, and RMS's mode of authority seems to be one of top-down control seeking rather than consensus building. Fortunately, we can only speculate as to whether or not an empowered RMS would become a dictator.
The whole importance of RMS smacks of a cult of personality, which is another aspect of "communism" that the dictonairy describes as "the doctrines, methods, etc. of Communist parties".
The dictonairy does not define communism as a pejorative, although in many parts of the U.S. it is. I think perhaps that's why so many people are reluctant to admit that RMS is a communist--because it would be pejorative, not because it wouldn't be true.
The dictonairy also defines it as 4. "loosly, communalism".
Insults aside, I think RMS and his organization easily satisfy the dictonairy definition of "communist organization" but they probably aren't a "Communist organization" as in "Communist Party USA" or the international Communist Party. In other words, I'm not sitting here wearing a tinfoil hat speculating about RMS having a scrabmled sat phone that links him to a secret underground bunker in Moscow filled with KGB waiting for an opportunity to emerge from their hideaouts and restore the Soviet Union. It's just that if such a thing exists, they wouldn't disagree with him.
While there is plenty of room for RMS and his backers to wiggle away from the word "communist", I think there's enough to make the word stick, and I wouldn't attack anybody for using it. I've used it myself, but usually I just call him a "radical leftist" because it's not as pejorative as "communist" and it doesn't lead people to believe he's a formal member of the Communist Party, which as far as I know, he isn't.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
No, therefore tax breaks for the rich are close to pointless - and hiking their taxes wouldn't achieve as much as you would hope either. You'd only hurt the honest ones, the ones you really least want to hurt.
It's along the same lines as "if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns": gun control laws - beyond a sensible minimum - only disarm those who are best placed to use those weapons sensibly. The people you really want to control will buy their weapons on the black market (thus en passant enriching another class of society that you don't want to encourage), hide them and lie about them. In effect, you're encouraging dishonesty by either trying to ban guns (as I said, beyond the sensible minimum - needed to keep them out of the hands of obvious incompetents or psychopaths, just like driver's licences), or by overtaxing "the rich".
Here in Oz, we have the ridiculous circumstance of people on the Dole paying income tax: evidently, "the rich" extends down to people on welfare, so we must truly be the "lucky country". IRL, what it means is that the income tax system (set up in 1939 as an emergency measure to fund Australia's contribution to WW2 and not scaled for inflation since) is badly broken.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Switch to BSD.
DT
Is this thing on? Hello?
Ok, let me just sum up all of the anti-RMS sentiments: annoying, egotistical, egomaniac, self-centered, paranoid, delusional, unreal, deluded, out-of-touch, rude, crude, moody, childish etc etc etc
/. will scorn him.
Yes, RMS has certain characteristics that many people find annoying. No, he's not perfect. So what? The last perfect person on this Earth had nails driven through his hands (well, according to those brainwashed religious people anyways). Someone else pretty close to perfect was condemned to death by 500 of his fellow citizens, and died from Hemlock. I guess it's just RMS' punishment for actually having principles that many on
I find it amusing that people here are deriding him for not using KDE. So what? I have *never* used KDE, or GNOME, or Sawfish. I use WindowMaker, pwm, and ratpoison. Really, what *need* does an advanced user have for something like KDE? I myself can do fine just using ratpoison, and I'd imagine many others can as well too. If RMS doesn't use XFree that often, so what? Obviously, doesn't have much need for it. So what if they had to show him this thing step-by-step? You'd have to do that for me with KDE too. Big fucking deal.
In regards to GNU/Linux, I don't pronounce it "geenuh-Linux". Sorry, RMS, bug "geenuh" sounds, well, goofy. I pronoune it G.N.U. Linux, spelling out the letters. When I'm talking about the distributions in general, I say GNU/Linux distributions. When talking about FOSS OS', I say FOSS OS'. When talking about one distribution in particular, I'll often shorten it to "distribution".
I do not think he's at all unreasonable in asking us to call it G.N.U./Linux (just so long as he doesn't mind if some of us spell out the GNU for aesetheitic purposes). A very small part of any distribution is actually Linux. It's an important part, true. But an equally important part is GNU software (e.g., gcc, glibc, and a slew of other GNU things which are used by many applications).
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Google for it, you'll find references that go back to 1996 or earlier. I don't know if that's significantly prior to the current "GNU/Linux" naming campaign. Amusing either way.
Ignoring the observation that the vast majority of the UN's authority is simply assumed, we still have to get past the obvious problem that the UN is blatantly Communist in its choices (it was founded to be so), has supported - even if by "blessing with faint curse" in some cases - many dictators, and in general is about as friendly toward real democracy as an alligator is toward chickens. The enthusiasm is definitely there, and in the UN's case so is the lip-service, but the best you can expect IRL is a sick charade. The other problem is that many of the Iraqis are calling for Islamic self-government, and democratic it ain't.
I think you're missing many of the UNsubtle nuances here.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
It's very telling that your analogy involves the police and the army sentencing criminals. In liberal democracies (which is supposed to be what we're making the world safe for), civilian courts do that, and they're independent of the arresting forces.
Thanks for making my point again.
...can they get him to meet them for NIL instead?
... let me guess... the KDE version of thnkx?
-pyrrho
First, if such a large percentage of software is written as a service, then there should be no need to spend much time fussing about the other, much smaller percentage of software that isn't written as a service.
First, if such a large percentage of Chinese are not dissidents, then there should be no need to spend much time fussing about the other, much smaller percentage of Chinese that are dissidents...
If by "respects" you mean "quietly ignores" (in some cases), then I agree. Otherwise, nice theory, care to show evidence that your assertion is upheld with any consistency?
Agree, and never said I didn't. I've been busy running down the UN, not building up the USA. However, the UN has a problem here too: part of France's reason for objecting is simply that America wanted it. And they accuse the Yanks of playing politics with people's lives? Oh. my!
"You fscking Americans are all the fscking same! It's listen-to-me this and let-me-tell-you-that..."; the key points you're missing in your oh-so-righteous jihad are (1) I'm not American ("you moron") and (2) I don't agree that America did anything like the best thing (you have read my other posts to this topic, haven't you?) - but it may yet turn out that their choice sums up better than the standard prevaricate-while-the-world-turns-to-shiite-around -us approach.
It probably is. If not that, then maybe they were invaded in part for blocking the import of poisonous smoking herbs from the poor starving American tobacco farmers. America's like that.
OTOH, the Iraqi people actually were being ground under the iron heel of represssion and did actually need liberation. And what they need now is not a UN-sponsored nominally-socialist abortion for a government. I'm not sanguine that the puppet government which the USA leaves behind will be any better, but I know what whatever the UN did would suck.
That's because you're too dumb and too self-righteous to stop and read their history. Not the potted gratuitous self-praise on the UN's own website, but actual history. The UN was organised in secret by well-known communists and founded for the purpose of promoting communism, and we're talking ancient-history CCCP-style dictatorial we-know-what's-good-for-the-peasants communism here, not the political ideal.
Wrong. But they're certainly in the running.
Not to mention the Soviet regime and a startling array of others (Hitler, through US industrial contacts, for example). Your point...?
Yeah, right. I'm pretty sure my perspective on my own nation is reasonable, and so is my perspective of the USA. When we got involved in WW2, my own nation was clever enough to send the Roman Catholics to the Pacific, and everyone else to Europe, so there would be no problems with Catholic fighting Catholic (e.g. Croation (equals Catholic) priests invited Hitler into Yugoslavia during WW2 and helped to round up, shoot and incinerate their Serbian (equals Orthodox) brothers and sisters, "right down to the cradle", to quote one Catholic priest who actually did this). My own nation have been assholes in other places, but nothing like either France, Germany or the USA (to pick a few almost at random).
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
It still sucks less than your analogy. So the police and army do the prosecuting, not the sentencing, big whoopie do - my analogy otherwise stands, yours falls irredeemably. End of story, bye bye.
That you have stooped to legalism to distract attention from the fundamental failure of your own analogy betrays a certain unwillingness to even consider facts, let alone face them. Are you trying to learn, or merely to win debating points?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
It's not disagreeing about the methods, it's refusing to commit in any way. France was happy to gabble until the cows come home, and meanwhile Iraqis were distressed and dying. France made no real investment in actually resolving the situation, militaristically or otherwise yet expects to have a say in how things turn out. France waived that authority when they refused to take responsibility to do anything serious about the situation (they still refuse to), and now they expect to have it back.
It's been blatantly obvious from the start that negotiating with Saddam and the Baath was basically a waste of breath; they were not predisposed to do real negotiation under any terms, let alone with agents of The Great Satan. Continuing to try to negotiate under those conditions amounts to dereliction of duty. Refusing to go to battle if it's needed is as much desertion as running away from the thick of it, possibly more so.
Personally, I think France needs another row of trees east-west through France and centered on Paris, plus an annular forest (or maybe paint the Périphérique in dayglo colours).
On the other hand, the USA were probably the worst choice in the world as leading invaders. I think their experience of terrorist activity is about to hit new peaks, and they're going to overreact to that as well. Their reactions are already hurting completely innocent citizens of their own country, and of other countries as well.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
There are two main applications over the years where I've seen Unix progammers resort to assembler other than for direct hardware control. One of them is numerical programming (and some graphics and crypto bignums) that benefits from machine operations not available from C, like 16x16->32 multiplies (where C would either limit the result to 16 bits, risking overflows, or expand the operands to 32 bits before multiplying, which is slow.) The other is for detailed bit-bashing operations, like crypto and some graphics, where some operations like bit-rotating aren't directly supported in C. There's almost nothing else.
I've only done one project since I started using Unix in ~1978 where assembler was useful, and it wasn't actually on Unix, and I didn't actually write code in it, just used it to diagnose code... The Bell Labs BLIT graphics terminals had a light-weight operating system that ran on 68000s and later WE32010s, and if you've got a nice 1Kx1K screen and a CPU that's got 3/4 MIPS and almost nothing to do, you might as well have it calculate Mandelbrot sets in the background. Of course, there's no floating-point coprocessor on those terminals, and doing it in floating-point emulation was dog-slow, but a little bit of numerical analysis makes it possible to do in fixed-point fractions. If you talk to it nicely, you can make it all happen in the registers, rather than using memory, and get the 16x16->32 multiplies for free without any type conversion happening, but the only way to be sure of getting it right is to have the compiler output assembler to make sure your code did what you wanted it to. (Remember registers? They were the things that 8086s didn't have enough of, and therefore Pentiums didn't have enough of, which made everything work really fast on real machines. Even PDP-11s had twice as many registers as 8086s.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Oh really? He wrote the drivers? He wrote the filesystem? He wrote the windowing system? No, wait, it was the keyboard interface, right? He wrote the keyboard interface.
Fuck you. By your logic, the system ought to be called Intel/Linux because they designed the fucking processor.
What a moron.
Oh wow, you have trouble grasping the difference between "most" and "all" and "part". You're going to be impossible to talk to.
Not that it's a problem, because as an anonymous coward you probably will never read this.