Ogg Now An RFC

Logic writes "The Ogg bitstream format (used by Ogg Vorbis) has been enshrined in RFC 3533, "The Ogg Encapsulation Format Version 0", for all you folks who won't look at something unless it has an RFC attached to it."

Comments

Can't wait for

[sulli]

RFC 3533 over RFC 1149! (perfect for those multi-year John Cage tunes)

Re:Can't wait for

[Jonathunder]

Avian carriers bearing OGGs?

Re:Can't wait for

[Anonymous Coward]

Anybody considering this should note that RFC1149 has been superceded by RFC2549, countering data loss to hawks and the like.

Re:Can't wait for

[Anonymous Coward]

I turn my nose up at any psychoaustic scheme, especially now I have the remixed 7.1 surround Super-Audio CD version of 4'33... blows your mind, you can hear a pin drop! Especially with my new $20k speakers.

Re:Can't wait for

[ncc74656]

RFC 3533 over RFC 1149! (perfect for those multi-year John Cage tunes)

Screw that...it needs RFC3514 support so that Britney/NSuck/etc. OGGs can be marked appropriately. With RFC3514 support in routers and such, maybe you'd see much less of that crap clogging the Internet.

Re:Can't wait for

[Anonymous Coward]

Which came first, the Avian, or the OGG? (Insert obligatory Chicken Run reference...)

Re:Can't wait for

[Microsofts slave]

Avaian Thunder! Oggs storming the Skies! London bombarded with VOGG Rockets!

Re:Can't wait for

[Directrix1]

Am I crazy or shouldn't an RFC come before standardization? RFC = Request For Comment. Its not just instantly a standard because its an RFC.

Re:Can't wait for

[connorbd]

RFCs are usually written after-the-fact -- I think "Request For Comment" is just a legacy name. (Or did you forget that the ISO standard for networking is *cough* OSI?) /brian

Hopefully

[Surye]

We can now get some more external player support. Especially in all the CD/MP3 players with upgradeable firmware and same with just MP3 players. I can't wait to be able to starting going only ogg.

Re:Hopefully

[millette]

Actually, Tremor, the integer codec, took care of that over a ago according to the changelog. And it's released under a bsd-like license.

Re:Hopefully

[bobm17ch]

I`m afraid this won`t affect player support much. The device (pc/mp3player/whatever) still has to support the vorbis audio codec within the ogg wrapper. Think of ogg as a bag of revels. The bag is standardised and easy to manipulate, but you just don`t know what you`re gonna get inside. Or even if you are gonna be able to handle it :) [1] [1] I can`t decode the orange revels. My codec empties the contents of the buffer through the I/O. :p

Re:Hopefully

[millette]

That casts a shadow over my previous response... I'm never careful enough separating ogg and vorbis; like tcp and ip, really.

Re:Hopefully

[ramzak2k]

Do you encode your mp3s with mp3? I guess not. Do you see my point?
Don't convert your mp3s. Keep 'em. From now on, if you rip a new cd, use Ogg.

Maybe on a boring afternoon you could re-rip your already ripped cd's to Ogg and send the old mp3s to the bitbucket.

Fraunhofer's mp3pro doesn't have mp3->mp3pro converters. Why should Ogg Vorbis need that?

Re:Hopefully

[dbc001]

While we're on the subject, can someone suggest a good ripper for encoder CDs to Ogg Vorbis? I'm currently using Exact Audio Copy and LAME on Win2000.
Ideally I'd like to find a ripper that has good cd database support, and can do both mp3 and ogg... Any suggestions?

-dbc

Re:Hopefully

[damiam]

EAC will work fine with Ogg, just download the encoder and point EAC to it. Alternately, you can use CDex or any number of other programs.

Re:Hopefully

[pslam]

Actually, Tremor, the integer codec, took care of that over a ago according to the changelog. And it's released under a bsd-like license.

Unfortunately Tremor isn't a one-size-fits-all. It's got nasty things like dynamic memory allocation all over the shop and still a rather large memory overhead. Actually, to be 100% compliant with the Vorbis 1.0 spec it's rather difficult to turn out a fast and small implementation (I've been trying).

At the moment I'm working on getting my own implementation working with an extremely small RAM overhead. It's by no means trivial getting it working on the DSPs you find in most MP3 players, and almost none of the source code to Tremor could be successfully ported to them either. I don't expect any of the source code I'm writing for my own implementation to be used as anything but a reference for writing a version to run on DSPs.

Of course, it would have been much more difficult even starting to write my own implementation were it not for freely available specs.

Re:Hopefully

[i_am_nitrogen]

Grip is absolutely the most awesome separate ripper I've ever used. It has database lookup, support for lame/bladeenc/oggenc and I think a few others, fully customizable file naming/directory structure, and the UI is actually pretty decent (once you get used to the "tabs-within-tabs" stuff that one of my former coworkers would always get really peeved about).

I'm not aware of any jukebox-like software for Linux, but with grip it's less necessary, as it sorts rips by album and artist if you want it to.

Re:Hopefully

[Xoder]

Except, of course, that both Vorbis and MP3 are both lossy codecs. And you don't want to compound loss like that. A previous poster suggested reripping from CD's that you own. That is the correct route for Vorbis "conversion" if you want any kind of sound quality in your new files.

Re:Hopefully

[OmniVector]

I figured that was a major problem getting ogg running on small mp3 processors. Good to see that someone is trying to tackle it. I just hope your effors are BSD licensed so that businesses can use it. I'm normally a GPL person, but GPL isn't going to benefit businesses releasing ogg support. It's a chicken an egg problem. No one will put ogg on the portable music players, so I (as well as many others I'm sure) won't switch to straight ogg on their desktop.

I have an iPod.. I know the cpus they use in these are pretty beefy compared to the other mp3 players -- does this one have the raw power to do tremor?

Re:Hopefully

[Anonymous Coward]

That "boring afternoon" meant over two months of work (put CD in, rip & encode, do something else in the meanwhile, realize it's ready, chance CD, repeat) but it was well worth it. Now, if I could convince the cows that work with me that it's a good idea, we'd have 30 GB of Oggs on our shared music pool and every bit of it is legal :-)

Re:Hopefully

[nadaou]

I`m afraid this won`t affect player support much.

This is quantifiable legitimacy. Don't underestimate the value of that in the eyes of non-techie types who may just be the ones deciding whether to use Ogg or not in their company.

"Published Standard, RFC 3533" is a nice bullet in the PowerPoint presentation to the boss when you are trying to convince them to use some free software.

Not that it means much in reality, but when did we leave reality? About the time Gore won the presidency I think. Probably long before then, but then again I'm young so cut me some slack. But I digress..

Much like the ISO9001 or Mil.Spec. tags you see everywhere- if it didn't affect people's purchasing decisions, you wouldn't see 'em used!

Re:Hopefully

[Anonymous Coward]

keep at it !

godspeed.

Re:Hopefully

[bobm17ch]

This won`t affect joe publics' attitude towards Ogg as you hope. It *may* affect the attitude of the techies / managers who implement format support for hardware players. however. It`d be pretty funny if we started getting Ogg supported hardware players that didn't support the vorbis codec. :)

Re:Hopefully

[pslam]

I just hope your effors are BSD licensed so that businesses can use it. I'm normally a GPL person, but GPL isn't going to benefit businesses releasing ogg support.

At the moment any project I release ends up GPL simply because it's the most restrictive (genuine) public license. I should really use BSD-with-advertising because I don't actually mind businesses using my code, and it gives me a free advert too.

I have an iPod.. I know the cpus they use in these are pretty beefy compared to the other mp3 players -- does this one have the raw power to do tremor?

iPods are basically a dual core ARM7TDMI which is fast enough to decode about 2-3 MP3 streams simultaneously, but I'd guess they're clocked low enough to handle just the one and save a bit of battery. Vorbis (specifically Tremor) has roughly the same CPU requirement as MP3 (slightly more), but uses a lot more RAM. All that would mean is it'll eat battery quicker.

I'd say that so long as you have about 50 MIPS (at arithmetic) and 300KB of RAM, you should be able to fit it into that processor. Anything less and it should still fit but you'd have some work to do or maybe some quality tradeoffs. That means pretty much any of the MP3 players out there with general purpose CPUs or DSPs doing the decoding should handle it.

Re:Hopefully

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm currently using Exact Audio Copy and LAME on Win2000.

Grip isn't much to use to a Windows2000 user, is it?

CDEX is good IMHO. I tried EAC and didn't like it one bit. CDEX has a bit of a funky interface but can rip, CDDB lookup and encode to Vorbis with no problems.

Re:Hopefully

[lordrich]

Hey! You pinched my sig! -- Richard Kirkcaldy http://lordrich.com - the revolution will not be televised

Now that it's an RFC...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's only a matter of time before Verisign decides to patent it.

Re:Now that it's an RFC...

[chill]

It's only a matter of time before Verisign decides to patent it.

Only if Amazon doesn't beat them to it!

Re:Now that it's an RFC...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you actually knew anything about it you'd know that Ogg is in fact a "half-assed" implementation of the compression that ACC and WMA already use and to a much greater sophistication and fidelity than Ogg uses it. When the three are compared, Ogg virtually always comes in last and WMA first.

So no, I don't think that Microsoft is going to bother to copy that piece of junk any tome soon.

Re:Now that it's an RFC...

[damiam]

They already have.

Re:Now that it's an RFC...

[capnjack41]

First, it was a joke, asshead. Take it easy.

Second, a highly scientific and authoritative experiment by "LitexMedia.com" shows that much of the time Ogg has superior quality, and when it's not the difference is only subtle.

http://www.cdburner.ca/digital-audio-formats-artic le/digital-audio-comparison.htm

Re:Now that it's an RFC...

[larry bagina]

somehow, i don't trust a "highly scientific and authoritative experiment" to a .com....

Re:Now that it's an RFC...

[Anonymous Coward]

Second, a highly scientific and authoritative experiment by "LitexMedia.com" shows...

And who says comedy is dead on slashdot?

Re:Now that it's an RFC...

[afidel]

Umm, any codec study that only goes up to 128Kb/s is far from authoritative. In fact I can't listen to any codec at that low a bitrate, my ears really are too senesitive. But Ogg is fairly competitive with LAME mp3 at decent bitrates like 220Kb/s VBR.

Re:Now that it's an RFC...

[capnjack41]

Well clearly the "scientific" and "authoritative" part was a joke. But the point is, some have found evidence Ogg is better. I'm not saying it's the BEST EVER, it's just not always worse than WMA as the AC claimed.

Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

Well done Xiph team! Go Monty, go!

Yippie

[ergonal]

This is great, well done to all the xiph guys. Remember to show your support by tax-deductibly donating.

Re:Yippie

[mindriot]

On a side note, there has also been a second RFC (RFC 3534) published regarding the application/ogg media type.

Isn't an RFC a request for comment?

[unixwin]

If so, what can one comment on the Ogg stream if its already well defined?
I thought RFC's were proposals for eliciting peer comments/reviews??

Re:Isn't an RFC a request for comment?

[OverlordQ]

When the RFCs were first produced, they had an almost 19th century
character to them - letters exchanged in public debating the merits
of various design choices for protocols in the ARPANET. As email and
bulletin boards emerged from the fertile fabric of the network, the
far-flung participants in this historic dialog began to make
increasing use of the online medium to carry out the discussion -
reducing the need for documenting the debate in the RFCs and, in some
respects, leaving historians somewhat impoverished in the process.
RFCs slowly became conclusions rather than debates.

Straight from RFC 2555

Re:Isn't an RFC a request for comment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your .sig said:
"You ever watch the Rosanne show, Morpheus?" -Agent Smith

You know what this means right? Zion is just a meta-level of the Matrix, just like the last season of Roseanne was all a hallucination because she couldn't cope with Tom dying of a heart-attack.

Now if only it had a decent name

[Anonymous Coward]

"OGG is better"
"what? We're talking about music, not whatever that is..."
"OGG is about music. It's a file format, like MP3s, only better."
"Okay, dude, I'm sorry, I just keep missing the first thing you're saying"
"It's OGG. O - G - G."
"Dude, that is the most retarded name I've ever heard of... let's play some halo on my x-boxe!!!"

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot the part where the OGG/OSS/Linux advocate procedes to rail against Microsoft for a half hour and then play.

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Anonym1ty]

Until I read more about it years ago, the name OGG always made me picture some wanna be Mac Addict listening to Mod files or something in a dark room prodding through OS7 while dreaming how elite he had become.

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Bold Marauder]

[slashdot arcana]
Wasn't OGG the open source caveman, or something along those lines?
[/slashdot arcana]

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Anonymous Coward]

[Chorus]
"You down with O G G?"

[background singers]
"Yeah, you know me!"

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny you should bring this up... It's amazing how much more quality you can squeeze out of your EXISTING MP3 collection just by getting some better audio hardware. Before anyone starts taking my advice too far and goes to their local "overpriced audiophile extreme" store, here's how you can get GOOD sound INEXPENSIVELY:

* Get a good sound card. As a general rule, onboard audio stinks. The Audigy is popular - I personally don't like the way it sounds, so YMMV. Try the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz [epinions.com].

* Good speakers can be expensive. Good headphones aren't. Next time RadioShack has the Pro 35's [epinions.com] on sale, pick up a pair for $19.

* Try a few different MP3 players - quality varies. If you're a Windows user, don't waste your time with players that are basically just DirectShow front-ends, they'll ALL sound the same.

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[be-fan]

Well, technically, the codec is Vorbis, which is a pretty cool name, if you ask me.

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[lvdrproject]

To continue the recently-created Slashdot tradition of replying to posts at random:

I agree! "Wilford" is a funny name!

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that part of the spec? 30 seconds of anti-MS gibberish must be automatically prepended to all ogg files by the encoder? :)

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[damiam]

That was OOG.

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[radish]

Yeah whereas "mp3", "wma", "mpeg", "gif", "pdf" and "jpg" just roll right off the tongue. Doesn't seem to have done any of them any harm...

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Guppy06]

"MP3 is better"
"what? We're talking about music, not whatever that is..."
"MP3 is about music. It's a file format, like MID or MOD, only better."
"Okay, dude, I'm sorry, I just keep missing the first thing you're saying"
"It's MP3. M - P - 3."
"Dude, that is the most retarded name I've ever heard of... let's play some Tekken on my PlayStation!!!"

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[sharkey]

"You down with O G G?"

Other Geeks Gonads?

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[SN74S181]

They are all abbreviations for something that has meaning.

What does OGG stand for?

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Nindalf]

What does OGG stand for?

A suicide bombing.

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[donglekey]

"Compact Disc is better"
"what? We're talking about music, not whatever that is..."
"Compact Disc is about music. It's a format, like records or tapes, only better."
"Okay, dude, I'm sorry, I just keep missing the first thing you're saying"
"It's a Compact Disc, a Cee Dee."
"Dude, that is the most retarded name I've ever heard of... let's play some Techmo Bowl on my Nintendo!!!"

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[TummyX]

Not to mention the logo which looks like a naked richard stallman hacking at a snake with an axe.

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Anonymous Coward]

"Cassette tape is better"
"what? We're talking about music, not whatever that is..."
"Cassette tape is about music. It's a format, like 8 track or records, only better."
"Okay, dude, I'm sorry, I just keep missing the first thing you're saying"
"It's a Cassette tape, a t a p e."
"Dude, that is the most retarded name I've ever heard of... let's play some pong on my TV!!!"

I like how the word "Dude" crosses the generations.

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[zuralin]

It's Ogg, not OGG! "...pronounced like Dog without the letter D". Gotta love Ogg Traffic.

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Webmonger]

Ogg isn't the sound format-- it's the file format. It's an avi/asf alternative (maybe a tar alternative too), not a mpeg-layer-3 or pcm or flac alternative. The reason I'm being lame about this is that it's the Ogg file format that was standardized, not the Vorbis audio encoding format.</lame>

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the hell is there a gif on xiph.org?

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[jelle]

Actually, OGG itself is just a multimedia transport stream. Ogg Vorbis is about music, but for example Ogg Theora is about video, just like Ogg Tarkin (althoug that one is still in experimental stages).

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Bold Marauder]

Thanks! I only heard of him second hand. :(

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[radish]

Stop someone in the street and ask them if they've heard of "mp3". Anyone under 30 probably will have done, so will a lot of others. Now ask them when it stands for. You'll be lucky if 10% have any idea at all.

In fact, it doesn't stand for anything. As you know, mp3 files are more properly called "MPEG 1 Audio Layer 3". And the MPEG stands for "Motion Pictures Expert Group". So the best I can some up with for mp3 is "Motion Pictures 3". Which makes no sense at all.

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Anonymous Coward]

ROTFLMAO

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Anonymous Coward]

> [Chorus]
> "You down with O G G?"

> [background singers]
> "Yeah, you know me!"

Thanks for reminding me of that. Now I have to go listen to "Entropy" again (funniest thing I've heard in a while). Go to www.mchawking.com to see what I mean.

Request For Comments

[millette]

Isn't it ironic that an RFC would be published so late in the format's life? I guess the old meaning is completely obsolete, and Request For Change doesn't really fit the bill either...

Re:Request For Comments

[Greger47]

No, thats the way it is by design.

IETF doesn't standardize anything untill it is finished, complete with reference implementations.

Heres a good writeup: The Internet Engineering Task Force

Re:Request For Comments

[norwoodites]

It is not on the standard track but the RFC is only `Informational'.

Re:Request For Comments

[keli]

So it should be TLFC? -- Too Late For Comments. ... or maybe RFC stands for "Rats! Forgot the Comments"

What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[yppiz]

What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3 as the standard format for music?

I'm curious what folks here think it would take for consumers to think of Ogg as the normal, expected format for audio.

--Pat / zippy@cs.brandeis.edu

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[Anonymous Coward]

It has already replaced mp3 in most games, as OGG is free as in beer to use.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bwhahhaa, another stupid fucking Linux kid on Slashdot.

Provide proof.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[slavitos]

I am not sure it will replace it, but there are two good reasons it could be competitive: a) It sounds better b) It is license-free I think the odds are good that OGG will be on par with MP3 within 2 or 3 years.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[SILIZIUMM]

Look at games using the latest Unreal engine (eg. Unreal Tournament 2003), under the Music folder. You'll see a lot of Oggs.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[leviramsey]

It's probably going to take streaming media. At this point, Ogg seems to be the ideal format for streaming (Vorbis for music and Speex for talk). With Vorbis, at least to my ears, 64kbps is indistinguishable from CD quality. 40kbps and less is FM radio quality to me. Windows Media and Real have not, to my ear, delivered that quality.

Combine that with the likely lack of patent encumbrances or restrictive licenses, and I suspect that Ogg will become more common for streaming media.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's great. So you have a single game, perhaps 2 or 3 based on the engine.

Are there any more, anything close to the "most games" statement the original poster made?

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[Doctor7]

True for UT2003, not so sure about the engine generally. The ogg player hasn't been properly integrated and the editor is still set up to deal with the old UMX (MOD) format, so this may be a one-off for the UT series only.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[ergonal]

Your parent post was wrong to say "most" games, but there's still a numerous amount that use OGG, and the number continues to grow.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[SILIZIUMM]

See, I'm not an hardcore gamer. This is the latest game I'm playing (occasionally) and it's the first one I see using Ogg. So I don't know for most of them. Anyone interested can provide us more examples, though.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[Anonymous Coward]

WOW! 6 games!!! That's gotta be what, 5% of what's out there now, if not less?

Keep tryin kiddo.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[buck_wild]

"The four pillars of the male heterosexual psyche: naked women, lingerie, lesbians, and James Bond."

You seem to have misplaced Bruce Lee with James Bond, and beer with lingerie.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[Tet]

What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3 as the standard format for music?

1. It already has, at least for me. All of my CDs are ripped to Ogg Vorbis, primarily because I know that I'll be able to play them in perpetuity, thanks to the licensing issues.
2. For the general population, the sad answer is that it probably never will. The lack of portable players is often cited as the barrier to widespread adoption. But while I'm sure it's a factor, I don't think it would matter anyway. After all, the world is still using GIFs, despite the widespread availability of superior alternatives. The only exception would be if Fraunhofer go nuts with their licensing demands. I suspect on of the reasons PNG hasn't displaced GIF entirely has been that Unisys asked for sensible amounts when licensing.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[lvdrproject]

I think "most" is stretching it by a fair bit. I'm not much of a PC gamer at all, but i do know that Neverwinter Nights and Ragnarok Online use MP3 (well, i think RO uses MP2, but either way). The only games i've heard of that use Vorbis are the Unreal-based games, as you said. Vorbis.com usually has news about that kind of stuff, and i'm sure it's used in other games as well.

But yeah, not "most games" by a long shot.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[SILIZIUMM]

Agreeded on the fact "most". I just wanted to input that some games exist, uses Ogg and are well-known titles, but's not the majority that uses Ogg.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[commodoresloat]

a) It sounds better

"Ogg" sounds better than "mp3"? Are you kidding? I mean, "mp3" isn't a great name, but at least you don't feel like a cornball when you say "I've got 20 gigs of mp3s." Who really wants to brag about how many oggs they have??

What? Oh, never mind.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[shaitand]

ahh but gif is basically used for one thing... the web, and the most accepted browser out there (IE if you somehow missed it) does not even support transparent png backgrounds.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[questionlp]

It's not license-free, but rather patent-free and does not have any licensing fees or royalty requirements. The utilities to create Ogg Vorbis files are under the GNU GPL and the libraries and SDKs are under a BSD-like license. You can find more in the Ogg Vorbis FAQ.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[AvantLegion]

PNG is getting around a bit more than OGG is. Lots of webcomics use them, particularly.

For me, the lack of portable device support IS what keeps me from using OGG. I hope this changes in the near future.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, those aren't ogg music files, they're ogg graphic files (Open GL Graphic IIRC).

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree that the major benefit of vorbis is its the fact that its licence free, and generally it can beat MP3 in sound quality at the same bitrate, but for ultimate quality, i think a properly encoded MP3 still sounds better at the moment.

USing the lame preset extreme setting, with an average bitrate of ~220k/sec, Mp3's are essentially identical to the original CD, on my equipment (yes, i am an audiophile), to my ears. However, Ogg vorbis never seems to be able to be totally perfect, the treble seems to have a metallic edge to them, and also sounds somewhat equalized (boosted bass and highs). I can usually pick out these differences even at a CBR 350k/sec.

On the otherhand, at bitrates below 192, vorbis is much better, and i'm sure it will eventually catch up to MP3 given enough testing/fine tunning by experienced listeners. Ogg vorbis is the best format in theory, but as with all psychoacoustic coding, lots of listening and fine tunning is needed in addition to good theoretical design. This is probably why Ogg is such poplular with the computer community, but has almost no support from the audio entusist/music community.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[Commutative Monoid]

You might want to consider having your hearing tested if you really can't determine the difference between a 64Kbps Vorbis stream and a CD in blind testing. I don't mean that as a derision, but Vorbis shouldn't be transparent at that bitrate. It may certainly sound good, however.

None of this necessarily means anything for the acceptance of Vorbis for the purposes of streaming audio, though. I'd say it's non-trivial to determine what directions post-mp3 streaming audio will take. For all we know, AAC HE may become the next big thing. There may just be several formats used by individual streamers (like there are now), without any singular, dominant format being exclusively popular. In all likelihood, though, any potential licensing fees will matter less than what the average person, sitting at their computer, will be able to play without having to go through considerable effort.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[Anonymous Coward]

Graphic files in the music directory? That's a heck of a screwy design... :)

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[wolverine1999]

For me it already has. It's my archival format for audio.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[Anonymous Coward]

"What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3 as the standard format for music?"

Too late, it already did. You should have asked that question a few years ago.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[iabervon]

Consumers won't think of Ogg as the normal, expected format for audio. Consumers only pick up the first name for something, and it takes a generation for names to fade. On the other hand, with players using plug-ins and gradually getting Vorbis support, it's likely that people's MP3 collections will soon contain a number of Ogg files, which will be entirely lost on them; they'll call compressed audio files "MP3s" regardless of the codec or format.

But nobody knows about ogg.

[Anonymous Coward]

Everybody has heard of mp3, and a lot people have heard of DivX ;)/MPEG, but only nerds know about ogg. Its sounds stupid, it looks stupid and theres poor support for it in windows.

If media player dosen't play it, 99% of people won't use it.

-1, troll^H^H^Hue

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[Anonymous Coward]

a rose by any other name

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[Cheesy Fool]

Anyone playing the latest Unreal games is using ogg.

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[Jellybob]

OGG is supported out of the box (zip?) by Winamp.

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[Bold Marauder]

Outside of college students and geeks (but I repeat myself), who has heard of win-amp? I demonstrated it to my dad, and he just said "how is that any different than what came with my Dell?"

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[SILIZIUMM]

Isn't Winamp the "de-facto" music player on Windows since a while ? I remember using it since a while already (somewhere in the 1.8x days mabye). Every person I know who uses Windows uses Winamp to play their music.

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[Bold Marauder]

I only know 3 windows users; the other two use "whatever works", as they use win98 and between [I'm guessing] variable software conflicts, one day winamp will work, one day it wont and they'll switch to media player...until it gives out. My first, best guess is that media player is the "de-facto" music player on windows XP. You have to ask yourself; who is it you know? What is their demographic?

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[Hatta]

Nobody's heard of RFCs either.

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[TummyX]

It doesn't work out of the box but you can use media player if you install the OGG directshow filter.

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[Anonymous Coward]

You mention DivX, which WMP doesn't play out of the box, and then dismiss Ogg because WMP won't play it out of the box? "Poor Windows support" is stupid - it's applications that need to support it, not the operating system. Applications like Winamp. Wait - Winamp supports Ogg Vorbis out of the box. What was your point again?

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[shaitand]

media player doesn't play divx. And I well remember when us nerds were the only ones who had heard of divx. Give it a year and the common idiot will have heard of xvid and ffmpeg4 as well, you see at least with movies, it's nerds who do the encoding because not every idiot can... but any idiot can watch the rip and think he's bright if he knows how to download the codec.

But to be honest, most don't know about divx either yet.

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[shaitand]

As a technician with the unfortunate experience to work with an extremely vast array of different windows users, I can confirm that most adults use whatever is put before them. Most teenagers use winamp. Most adults with teenage children use winamp as a consequence because that's what their teenager put before them. I hope this clarifies issues.

Generally I've found this to be a consistant pattern, teenagers use some app from the web (for better or worse) they've found and believe better to do the things they care about (otherwise they use what is in front of them. Adults follow a pretty consistant pattern of never looking for something better than what is put in their path unless they have an extremely compelling reason. And even then, they use the first solution to that reason that is put in front of them.. never really looking for the best solution.

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[grolschie]

Actually most people who do use Windows will use another media player at some stage. Most users will have at least one of the following installed somewhere along the way: WinAmp, QuickTime, RealPlayer, etc.

What has WinAmp done for many years that WMP doesn't, or only recently has done? For years Winamp has supported skins, playlists, visualizations, etc. Yes, WMP does this, but only long after WinAmp had ruled the market.

WinAmp plays OGG, MOD, S3M, XM, Streaming-mp3 and other formats out of the box, whereas WMP doesn't. Chances are, if you wish to play an audio format that is not that common, Winamp is your tool.

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[Anonymous Coward]

> Anyone playing the latest Unreal games is using ogg.

True, but do they know, and do they care?

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[Idolminds]

They care. A recent patch added an in-game audio player (no more Winamp in the background). And it only supports one format. Guess which one.

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG vlaggot!!!

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[FattMattP]

Most teenagers use winamp. Most adults with teenage children use winamp as a consequence because that's what their teenager put before them.

Winamp has had built-in Ogg Vorbis support since 2.80.

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. Everyone now sends a few queries to google and finds out what is the best of the best depending on the factors that are compelling for them. It's a new world. Welcome to it.

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sam Serious 2 is using Ogg too

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[Krilomir]

Since when has Windows Media Player supported DivX out of the box? It still the most used format for dvd-rips and the likes.

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[theLOUDroom]

Everybody has heard of mp3, and a lot people have heard of DivX ;)/MPEG, but only nerds know about ogg. Its sounds stupid, it looks stupid and theres poor support for it in windows. If media player dosen't play it, 99% of people won't use it.

Yeah, whatever.
Does media player come with DivX ;) support? No. Guess what? People use it anyways.

Another reply here points out that every just uses winamp. You can play .ogg with winamp just like you can play divx with media player. Both are just a download away.

And how the hell does an audio format "look stupid"? This is just a blatant troll. Who modded this guy up?

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[shaitand]

lol, the teenagers send a few queries to google and find out what is most POPULAR, the adults are only just starting to become aware of google. Actually since MSN is the default page in IE on a fresh windows install, most adults do things like type web addresses in the search box never realizing there is an address bar at the top of the window. Welcome to the world of the old and not so leet ;)

If you think the readers of slashdot in any way represent the average technical awareness of adults... lmfao

This is a good thing.

[DdJ]

I see this as extremely likely to increase the odds that Apple will put Ogg support into iTunes and the iPod, that hardware MP3 player manufacturers will add support for Ogg, that the TiVo will be able to play it, that the PS2 media player will be able to play it, et cetera, et cetera...

Re:This is a good thing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey dumbass, this is ogg, the container format, not vorbis, the codec.

Re:This is a good thing.

[StrawberryFrog]

Why would apple want to put OGG support into the iPod? MP3 is the bait, AAC is the hook. OGG isn't even a player, and apple has no percentage in making it one.

By that I mean that MP3 support is important for market acceptance - you'll buy one for the MP3z; but AAC with all that DRM is important to the business model. Promoting another no-DRM format over AAC is not in Apple's interest.

That said, I'd love to be wrong. The day that Apple do idealistically put OGG support into Ipod, I will buy one. Or if another manufacturer makes a good one, I'll get that instead.

Re:This is a good thing.

[Phroggy]

I see this as extremely likely to increase the odds that Apple will put Ogg support into iTunes and the iPod...

It may increase the odds, but not by much: if Apple wanted to add Ogg support, they could already have done so. However, I'm optimistic that one day they will add Ogg support.

And, once Apple does, it's pretty much guaranteed that everybody else will follow. Wait to see how quickly popular hardware and software MP3 players add AAC support - the same thing will happen with Ogg.

Re:This is a good thing.

[bobm17ch]

If apple ever decided for whatever reasons (*cough* microsoft cash) to include drm'd wma or even encrypted mp3, there is no reason why they shouldn`t choose Ogg as their delivery package of choice.

Re:This is a good thing.

[TheAwfulTruth]

Except that Ogg it is inferior to AAC and has no DRM. They MIGHT add it as a playback on the iPod, just to include another playback codec, making the iPod "better", but not for anything else. Certainly not their "Delivery package of choice"!

Re:This is a good thing.

[damiam]

The day that Apple do idealistically put OGG support into Ipod, I will buy one.

You might want to keep an eye on ipod Linux. It boots and can play OGG at about 80% realtime. When it's optimized and gets a decent GUI, it should be pretty sweet.

Re:This is a good thing.

[shaitand]

Ogg is a container format, it cannot be used to playback anything, your thinking of vorbis which is a codec that is made by the same people. vorbis is what is most often contained in an ogg

Re:This is a good thing.

[DdJ]

What on earth ever made you think I thought otherwise?

Remember what an RFC is

[bigberk]

An RFC is a "Request For Comment", a technical specification document put forward by anybody. As wikipedia puts it, "Few RFCs are standards but all Internet standards are recorded in RFCs."

So what am I getting at is, realize that this hasn't been adopted as some Internet standard overnight. But it's very positive for the project to have such a well defined standards document in a familiar format!

Re:Remember what an RFC is

[thebigmacd]

I thought it was "Request For Change." ? I guess not...

Re:Remember what an RFC is

[shaitand]

Nope, is Request for Comment, started in the days when letters were passed around before email and other electronic forms of communication came into existance. Now an RFC is a generally a final definition rather than an introduction.

Re:Remember what an RFC is

[the uNF cola]

Depends on the context.

Sorta like CGI (Common Gateway Interface) and CGI (Computer Generated Image).

Ogg or OGG?

[Euphonious Coward]

Why do the RFC page headers say "OGG" instead of "Ogg"? The headers in other RFCs aren't arbitrarily capitalized. It's hard enough convincing people that Ogg isn't an acronym without the RFC itself making our work harder.

Can they fix this without issuing a new RFC number?

Re:Ogg or OGG?

[.com b4 .storm]

Why do the RFC page headers say "OGG" instead of "Ogg"? The headers in other RFCs aren't arbitrarily capitalized. It's hard enough convincing people that Ogg isn't an acronym without the RFC itself making our work harder.

Can they fix this without issuing a new RFC number?

To quote the RFC FAQ:

4) How can I correct an error in a published RFC?
You cannot! Once an RFC is published, it cannot be changed.
[...]
For both technical and editorial errors, the RFC Editor provides a list of errata for published RFCs. This page contains a list of errors that have been reported to the RFC Editor.

Re:Ogg or OGG?

[giraffecock]

It's also hard to convince your mother to stop moaning without wearing her cervix like a hat.

Maybe Apple will appreciate?

[cruppel]

I think maybe this will spur Apple into motion. Perhaps we'll see ogg being worked into the iTunes Music store.

Re:Maybe Apple will appreciate?

[cruppel]

dang someone beat me to it!

Re:Maybe Apple will appreciate?

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got to be kidding...

How much fact, knowledge and understanding do you have to lack to make a statement like that?

Just curious.

Re:Maybe Apple will appreciate?

[Pieroxy]

What would that buy them? They have absolutely no interest in doing such a thing... Already too many formats out there!

Re:Maybe Apple will appreciate?

[cjsnell]

To quote Office Space...

Michael: That's the worst idea I've ever heard.

Samir: Yes. That is terrible idea.

Dear RFC

[Letter]

Isn't an RFC a request for comment?

Dear RFC,

Yes, that's what RFC stands for. Slashdot took over the commenting aspect of all RFCs, so please just post any comments you might have about RFC 3533 below.

Sincerely,
Letter

Get a grip!

[Anonymous Coward]

Dick! MS Windows wants your to use their WMF format. OGG is supported by Winamp and many others in Windows. You can even download the OGG codec to play OGG files with MS MediaPlayer. Just don't expect MS to hand it to you.

And....it's a far better standard than mp3.

Global RFC database

[Anonymous Coward]

Global RFC database

call it vorbis

[SHEENmaster]

and hope they don't think that's a pokiemon.

Re:call it vorbis

[Anonymous Coward]

Ogg != Vorbis.

Next please!

Re:call it vorbis

[meringuoid]

Ogg != Vorbis.

Quite right. Ogg's a witch. Vorbis is a priest.

Re:Well

[Planesdragon]

Actually, OGG works just fine in windows. There just aren't any environments that rip right to Ogg Vorbis for Win32.

(If someone's got one, respond and post a friggin' link!)

Re:Well

[ahaning]

Now, now, quitcherbitchin and install Winamp and be happy.

Okay, so maybe out of the box it's only supported on some Linux distros, but the way you constructed that sentence, you're not 100% correct.

Re:Linux: the hype is over

[zbowling]

I don't to sound like I'm not open to opions, but you are ranting.

What are you talking about anyways? This has nothing to do with the subject.

Where do you get your "facts"? At least you could of given us a link. This is all sounds like here-say and conjecter. Linux is not dying out. Its bigger then its ever been. In this economic downfall we are in companies are turning to Linux to take the strain off having to purchase MS licences and be constrained to using their technologies. BSD is nice, but you can't say that Linux hasn't helped the UNIX market. With products that binary compatiable with UNIX, Linux apps add to the UNIX world too.

Your statment on IIS vs apache just makes you sound even more dumb. IIS is slow and nonconforming. Compiling means CONTROL. You could never do as much as you could in Apache on IIS. Forging host headers is so gay and useless anyways. Your statment on Perl and C is unfounded. .NET has problems you can't even fix. Perl and C are not nearly as slow as an MS technology and even more simple then they have to be with MS technologys.

You are the biggest retard I have ever seen on /. !

Legalese cut-n-paste contradictions strike again!

[Sparr0]

...

Distribution of this memo is unlimited.

...

Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2003). All Rights Reserved.

...

This document and translations of it may be copied and furnished to others ... provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph are included on all such copies


Sooo... is distribution one of those reserved "All Rights" or not? I think "All Rights Reserved" can be considered one of the most overused catch phrases of the last 20 years. Not only is it used in a contradictory manner like here, but somehow the MPAA and RIAA and software industry seem to think they really can reserve ALL rights instead of just their exclusive ones.

Version 0???

[jez9999]

"The Ogg Encapsulation Format Version 0"

Version 0?? I've heard of version 0.1, but never version 0. Does this mean it hasn't been started yet?

Re:Version 0???

[Fluid Truth]

I guess it's just zero indexed... :-)

Re:Version 0???

[DaCool42]

No, it means that whoever picked the version number is a C programmer.

Re:Version 0???

[rjamestaylor]

• version 0. Does this mean it hasn't been started yet?

Damn Visual Basic programmers

Re:Version 0???

[shaitand]

Those who use visual basic are considered programmers? Next thing you know children building castles out of blocks will be architects...

Re:Version 0???

[dr. electron]

Doesn't MIDI files have, format 0 and format 1 ?

Re:Well

[ergonal]

As you wish. CDex has native CD->Ogg ripping support.

But how many..

[Anonymous Coward]

of those people give a flying fuck?

Re:Well

[arkanes]

CDex can rip to ogg. It's also the best CD ripper for windows, hands down. It's also open source, which is cool.

http://www.cdex.n3.net

Zero?

[sulli]

Unless, I dunno, space aliens take away everyone's MP3 players and all copies of Winamp?

Seriously, Ogg is excellent, but the old "de facto standard" problem is huge. Unless the forces of evil somehow manage to ban MP3 or AAC due to patent concerns, I don't see users switching en masse.

Re:Zero?

[DarkBlack]

It almost sounds like that you are suggesting that Winamp doesn't support ogg vorbis. It does.

Re:Zero?

[TheAwfulTruth]

Well that's one program down. Now how about all those portable CD/mp3 players out there (Millions of them). Car CD/MP3 players, and home equipment that play mp3 but not Ogg. Are the Ogg people going to buy new equipment for everyone? There are versions of some of that stuff that play Ogg here and there. But until it's EVERYWHERE, it's not preferrable to mp3 to consumers. The last thing consumers want is constantly having to pick and choose formats. MP3 is ingrained for the long haul. Fortunately or unfortunately.

Re:Zero?

[lvdrproject]

You're arguing something completely different. You start out talking about software, and then you move on to hardware. Software support for Vorbis has grown exponentially since its inception, and it's no longer a problem. Anything worth its salt supports Vorbis (even WMP, if you have the DirectShow filters, i think). Winamp, Foobar2000, XMMS, &c.. Not to mention all the CD-ripping programs support it. You can even download a plug-in that allows Windows XP to provide information on Vorbis files in Explorer, just as it does with MP3s and WMAs (artist, title, bitrate, &c.).

But you are right about the lack of hardware support. I have a couple friends that like Vorbis, and they would switch in a second, if only there was hardware support. And that seems to be the major problem. Without hardware support, Vorbis will probably remain a nerd's pipe dream forever. Hopefully, though, they're making progress on some hardware players. I think i read in an Ogg Traffic once that one of the iRiver models was tested to see if it could handle Tremor, and apparently it can, which is good news, i think. Whether or not iRiver is going to take the time to implement it is the problem. Aside from that, nobody seems to interested in Vorbis on the hardware side, except for the makers of those ugly iPod rip-offs. :p

Re:Zero?

[shaitand]

look how long everybody and there dog was using mp3 before hardware manufacturers took the plung and started supporting it. Remember, these guys like to move slow... before mp3 the last standard for audio was compact disc (and it is certainly still not gone). Before compact disc it was tapes and before that those big black round things... i think they called them records.

ALL of these media types were in place for a very long time (by todays technological standards) and it is unlikely that now they have taken the dive to mp3 it will be changed within the next 5 years (read 5x the lifetime of vorbis/Ogg in it's current form being a dominant/viable technology).

Software can be changed relatively easily, the change is made once and it's copied repeatedly with existing technology. Hardware requires immense setup costs that must be recovered (2000000 fold) before the maker of the hardware is likely to make any real change to it.

Re:Zero?

[Fweeky]

You can even download a plug-in that allows Windows XP to provide information on Vorbis files in Explorer, just as it does with MP3s and WMAs

You mean VorbixExt?

Took me ages to find that, sigh :)

Re:Zero?

[lvdrproject]

Yes, exactly that. Thanks for posting the link; i just reformatted and needed it anyway. :D

Re:Zero?

[Natalie's Hot Grits]

There is no such thing as an iPod ripoff... you see, other companies were making hard drive MP3 players (of the same size) for years before the iPod was even a concept. iPod is a ripoff in itself. And a damn expensively overpriced (yet still quality) one at that.

Re:Zero?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with Ogg is the integration into the OS.

Take WMP, you need directshow filters, and making it work for the average joe is not easy (search the web)

It's appears like a white icon. double click on under WinXP and WMP said 'The selected file has an extension that is not recognized by Windows Media Player'. Once, I've made WMP reboots my computer for that.

Again, you need to install an other patch to have file integration.

I've tried on MacOS X, same thing, iTunes doesn't want it. Installing Mplayer OSX, again, white icon, no file integration, to 'Apple I' file information.

Again, and again you need a tons of patch to make it smoothly integrate it into the OS.

Again, (back to WMP), you can't produce Ogg, and iTunes neither. Average joe don't want install CDEx or other.

WMP or iTunes just works, people don't to search in the web how to make it works.

Worst, if you have a music library in WMP or iTunes, you are royally fucked.

Actually the integration into major OS like WinXP/WMP or MacOS X/iTunes is very very poor.

Going to the site http://www.vorbis.com doesn't help.

No 'how to' integrate Ogg into Windows/MacOS X, no package 'all in one' with full integration into Windows/MacOS X (like icon, file association, iTunes/QT integration or DirectShow).

If vorbis/ogg community could think about that, easier integration into the OS, eventually talks with MS or Apple how to integrate Ogg in WMP / iTunes.

If this won't happen .. Ogg won't make it.

Re:Well

[armie]

How about this?
iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -d slashdot.org -j DAT --to-destination goatse.cx

Re:Legalese cut-n-paste contradictions strike agai

[vanyel]

I think "All Rights Reserved" can be considered one of the most overused catch phrases of the last 20 years.

Actually, according to copyright training I had a "well known large company" some years ago, that specific phrase is required in a couple of small countries. It probably is overused in the sense that people think it's required in more places than it actually is, but from what little I recall, trying to copyright something in a way that's valid all over is a rat's nest, Berne or no Berne.

A new name at last

[Old Wolf]

I haven't used Ogg so far cos I think it sounds stupid and I don't want to see ".ogg" every time I look at my harddrive. RFC3533 is a much more aesthetic extension :) Might be time to make the switch.

Cute

[Anonymous Coward]

"...for all you folks who won't look at something unless it has an RFC attached to it."

I can imagine Logic taking four long seconds to come up with something that sounded smart at the time. Here are some more gems that Logic has come up with:

"John Carmack reached 50,000 ft. with his X-Prize entry today, for those of you who don't take video games seriously unless their designer is a rocket scientist."

"NASA today announced proof of a black hole in a nearby galaxy, for those of you who won't watch Star Trek episodes with unproven singularities."

"Sun finally implemented generics in Java in its latest release, for those of you who only view web pages with applets written in languages with generics."

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. Not quite.

For starters it's DNAT, not DAT.
It's --to, not --to-destination.
Finally, you can't use domain names in the NAT fields, so you'd need the ip address of the goatse.cx webserver.

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

burnaburnatonce can too....

....It's the name.. that damn name!

[aphexddb]

I just hate the name "Ogg Vorbis". I'm sure its a better format than mp3 but I just can't stand the name. "Format 3533" from the RFC would even be better.

Re:....It's the name.. that damn name!

[TeknoHog]

At least Ogg Vorbis is a name, not a twisted abbreviation. MPEG 1 Layer III turned into MP3 because some genius thought there's a three character limit to filename 'extensions'. I bet "MP3" didn't sound very catchy when it first came about, but I didn't hear anyone whine about the name.

Re:....It's the name.. that damn name!

[Anonymous Coward]

I always found it funny how the ISO 9660 format became just "ISO". Would "Format 3533" become "Format" ? :P

Re:....It's the name.. that damn name!

[Anonymous Coward]

And MP3 is better, why exactly? Two random letters and a digit? Three syllables instead of one?

Re:....It's the name.. that damn name!

[jmv]

I remember at first when newbies were saying MP3 and we'd tell them it's really "MPEG 1 Layer III". I guess we lost. :)

Re:....It's the name.. that damn name!

[Anonymous Coward]

At least it isn't as retarded as pronouncing the silent 'G' in everything GNU and Gnome.

Makes a person sound illiterate every time he says "guh-nome." How about "guh-stupid."

Re:....It's the name.. that damn name!

[wolverine1999]

Reminds me of Species 8472 from Star Trek Voyager

Re:....It's the name.. that damn name!

[FooBarWidget]

Only geeks care about whether the name "sucks" or not. Average users don't care, they just use whatever is put in front of them. It doesn't matter whether something is called "CoolStuff 2000 XP" or "blarghfooZapp86-viemacs", average users just use whatever they see first. Only Slashdotters and other vocal minorities of geeks care.

Re:Well

[kyjello]

Thats a pretty funny joke! someone mod this guy up!

Evil bit

[Seth Finklestein]

I refuse to support Ogg until its streaming component adequately supports the Evil Bit. Slashdot has given this so-called "Evil Bit" RFC a little lip service in the past, but I think it's high time we brought it out into the open.

BAh

[Loosewire]

That sladhot "gramophone" logo has been used so many times for "RIAA Does something else evil" stories everytime i see it i get angry :-(
Good to see Ogg being recognised like this - maybe more manufacturers will incorporate it into devices now.

Re:BAh

[zerblat]

That funny looking "gramophone" is actually a phonograph.

ObOgg It would also be cool if this led to Ogg (the encapsulation format) being used for more formats than just the ones created by Xiph. This would probably also give Vorbis etc a boost (if you already use Ogg why not just throw in Vorbis while you're at it?)

Re:Well

[calc]

One of the more popular ripping programs for windows, Audiograbber, has supported ogg vorbis officially since at least Feb 11, 2003, and it was very simple to use it with vorbis before that, since it has plugin support to encode to anything you want.

Urge... to kill... rising....

[Anonymous Coward]

For the love of $Deity, it's Ogg !! Not OGG, Ogg! Capital O, small g, small g!

How about an RFA?

[TheAwfulTruth]

Request For Acceptance? :)

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Name origins.

[Anonymous Coward]

The name origins are explained here.

Status of Ogg FLAC ?

[wossName]

It has been pretty quiet since the announcement about the FLAC project joining Xiph.org. The Ogg project page still links to the FLAC SourceForge page. Does anyone know what the status of Ogg FLAC is ?

Re:Status of Ogg FLAC ?

[Hatta]

Ogg FLAC works. Just use the --ogg flag to flac. What I can't figure out is why you'd want to.

Re:Status of Ogg FLAC ?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Ogg FLAC works. Just use the --ogg flag to flac. What I can't figure out is why you'd want to.

1. Rip all CDs, etc to FLAC, a lossless format.
2. Convert FLAC files to MP3, Vorbis, whatever. Keep FLAC files around.
3. New! Improved!! codec appears. You MUST have it, so you get it.
4. Convert FLAC files to New!Improved! format. No transcoding of, say an MP3 collection, so no loss of quality from the originals.
5. Lather, rinse, repeat as time goes by and progress occurs.

Re:Status of Ogg FLAC ?

[wossName]

Simplicity mostly. Why use a pile of different file formats, tools and plugins when they're going to integrate it all into Ogg eventually ?

So using .ogg as a container for FLAC is working, is this the real deal, or just a preliminary hack ?

Defining the file format is only one thing of course, playing the files is kind of important too. Do all the Ogg plugins have to implement "sub-plugins" now, or how does that work ? I'd imagine that when you open an Ogg file containing FLAC with xmms or Winamp, it's going to be handed to the Vorbis decoder currently.

Re:Status of Ogg FLAC ?

[Hatta]

Ogg FLAC is apparently just a raw flac file imbedded in an Ogg package. Ogg123 will not play Ogg FLACs. I 3 FLAC and I 3 Ogg, but I dont know what extra functionality Ogg FLAC provides.

Your dad is a fucking moron

[Anonymous Coward]

nt, niggz

Why is it...

[Anonymous Coward]

When someone uses a phrase like "You are the biggest retard I have ever seen...!" It almost invariably refers to the person speaking more than the person to whom they are speaking too?

Minor fix

[rjamestaylor]

• ...for all you folks who won't look at something unless it has an RFC attached to it.

Oops, that shouldn't be plural...

What about W3C?

[Hatta]

How about getting Ogg a W3C recommendation? These seem to be taken more seriously more seriously than RFCs, some of which are jokes, and many of which are obsolete.

Re:What about W3C?

[millette]

Just look at what happened to the png format :) But seriously, every bit will help.

Vorbis not in all current Winamp versions

[edgarde]

Note that the Vorbis codec is included on the Full install (2.9, 3.0) of Winamp, but not the "Standard" or "Lite" installs. This inconsistency will probably cause the sort of frustration that drives users away from Vorbis.

Users who have Winamp because it came bundled with other software usually do not have the Full install. The Netscape 7 package comes with (I believe) Standard.

Winamp.com's own comparisons do not mention which package includes Vorbis.

• Winamp 2.9 package options
• Winamp 3 package options

Re:Vorbis not in all current Winamp versions

[DarkBlack]

I'm not sure what version/options that Netscape 7 installs since I use Mozilla, but most Winamp users (that I know) grab the full version.

Re:Vorbis not in all current Winamp versions

[snocorp]

Winamp 3 only has one version -- Full, which does support OGG. So no one who downloads Winamp 3 will get a player that doesn't support it.

OGG vorbis players yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

On a distantly related topic, are there any portable music players that can play OGG Vorbis audio files available for sale today? Sure, I see announcements about this one or that one that will support OGG Vorbis in a future firmware update. Sorry, I want it NOW! And I don't want to have to resort to a hack either.

I want a device with support that works today.

Yes, I'd also like the option of either a hard-drive or non-hard-drive device (for more storage, or for jogging), USB 2 or Firewire, and a simple filesystem-like means for uploading/downloading files so I don't have to install some vile piece of software just to do what a filesystem does so well itself (that and it would be more likely to have support under Linux/*BSD, MacOS X, and WinXP). And MP3/AAC/Vorbis/WMA multi-format support would be acceptable too. Oh, and add built-in AM/FM radio, and the ability to record, and I'd be in heaven.

Am I just dreaming? Frontier Labs' Nex IA sounds almost like what I want IF ONLY it weren't a "future upgrade".

The vendor who gives me this first wins my money.

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually "--to" and "--to-destination" are the same.

RTFM ;)

Re:Well

[oxygene2k2]

http://cdexos.sf.net delivers an Ogg/Vorbis encoder plugin in the binary package.. you just have to select it in the preferences

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

For starters it's DNAT, not DAT.

I think it's just a typo.

It's --to, not --to-destination.
It's the same, RTFM.

Finally, you can't use domain names in the NAT fields, so you'd need the ip address of the goatse.cx webserver.
Now that wouldn't make the post funny, would it?

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

WhoohooOO!!! AC's UNITE!!

Re:Grand parent post pulled from the "Troll Librar

[Anonymous Coward]

But his .sig says he has an MSCE!

Hey, nice post there, WHIGGER!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah! You've got me there.

The stuff I've read always uses --to not --to-destination. That and I'm too lazy to type out more than 4 characters lazy. ;)

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that wouldn't make the post funny, would it?

It would be when somebody types in the IP to see where it leads to...

And yet another...

[poptones]

http://www.poikosoft.com

It's not free, it's not open - but it was the easiest and most reliable when I paid $20 for it, it's still maintained and supported, and I still use it. OOTB it rips to (among others) wma, mp3, ogg and ape.

Re:Legalese cut-n-paste contradictions strike agai

[Anonymous Coward]

here's something from some source code I just looked at

Copyright (C) 1987 {snip company name}. All rights reserved.
This version is released in the public domain and may not be sold.

errr...so, is it copyrighted or is it public-domain?

At long last..

[CausticWindow]

something to care about.

I'll take any RFC over your lame constitution, any day.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Legalese cut-n-paste contradictions strike agai

[Anonymous Coward]

They're saying that All Rights are Reserved. Meaning, if they didn't say it, you could distribute, copy, edit, redistribute, or whatever at your discretion. Because the rights are reserved, you can only do what they say :-P

Give this message to your boss.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mr. Lockwood. Let me say this. Deep, deep down in my soul, I find you to be the most tasteless, repulsive, fucking piece of shit I believe I've ever encountered in my life. You whine like a baby girl, you're a fat fucking slob, you can't hold a job or keep a wife, you crapflood every website you can find instead of doing your job, and then you wonder why you constantly get fired, and then when you get all of your own medicine you go crying to the people you have shit on.

Here's a free clue: We all despise you. We all want to watch you suffer. Every time you make your presence known, every time you expose your frailties to us, you bring us joy. Your suffering is food for our souls. If I have a crappy day, I know I can find Scott Lockwood on the internet and know that there's some stinking piece of shit out there who has it worse. It makes it even more sweet that you aren't even aware of any of this.

One last thing. You appear to still be alive - if you want to call it that. If you ever do realize what a fat disgusting loser you are and decide you should do the world a favor and turn yourself into 300 pounds of worm food, please broadcast the event on the internet. I'll even buy you a webcam.

Re:Legalese cut-n-paste contradictions strike agai

[Anonymous Coward]

Translation of the legalese for techies:

order deny,allow
deny from all
allow from 127.0.0.0/255.0.0.0

Pass this up the chain of command.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mr. Lockwood. Let me say this. Deep, deep down in my soul, I find you to be the most tasteless, repulsive, fucking piece of shit I believe I've ever encountered in my life. You whine like a baby girl, you're a fat fucking slob, you can't hold a job or keep a wife, you crapflood every website you can find instead of doing your job, and then you wonder why you constantly get fired, and then when you get all of your own medicine you go crying to the people you have shit on.

Here's a free clue: We all despise you. We all want to watch you suffer. Every time you make your presence known, every time you expose your frailties to us, you bring us joy. Your suffering is food for our souls. If I have a crappy day, I know I can find Scott Lockwood on the internet and know that there's some stinking piece of shit out there who has it worse. It makes it even more sweet that you aren't even aware of any of this.

One last thing. You appear to still be alive - if you want to call it that. If you ever do realize what a fat disgusting loser you are and decide you should do the world a favor and turn yourself into 300 pounds of worm food, please broadcast the event on the internet. I'll even buy you a webcam.

FUCKNAZI!

Re:Legalese cut-n-paste contradictions strike agai

[g0at]

Yeah, I think it starts to make more sense oftentimes if we read it as "All Rights Reversed"...

-ben

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

www.hick.org is where it would lead to.. goatse.cx is a vhost on hick.org

So, umm...

[IICV]

Where exactly did the name "Ogg Vorbis" come from?

I'm fairly certain that Ogg is from Netrek, but the only other place I've seen the name "Vorbis" is in Terry Pratchett's Small Gods.

Give this message to YOUR boss.

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is your 'flood'.

Name Idea: OG3

[MyHair]

They should standardize to an "og3" file extension. "Oh gee three" is reminiscent of "em pee three" and at least there's some connection.

To a geek it's stupid, but it could make the difference in public recognition since most digital music capable people know what mp3 is. Plus it's kinda like bumping your product's version number to make it appear on par or just superior to your competitor. Stupid, but it works.

It's easier to explain that og3 is a cooler version of mp3 (to a technophobe) than to differentiate between Ogg and Vorbis like we usually do. Speaking of which, since Ogg is the file format, .ogg was a short-sighted extension in the first place since the other Xiph codecs will likely use the same file format.

Yeah I've posted this idea before. It deserves some more exposure, mainly because I want public acceptance of Vorbis so I can buy a cheap player!

Re:Name Idea: OG3

[evilviper]

It's easier to explain that og3 is a cooler version of

A file extention is a file extention, not a slogan. In fact, naming it og3 would not only have caused a bit of confusion, but I wouldn't like it to look like we're jumping on the mp3 "me too" bandwagon. Ogg is not MP3, and it would be stupid to name it as if it was.

Take a look at other formats... MP3 came around when the only audio files people had come across were ".wav" and ".au". MP3 wasn't called "AU3", because that's not what it is.

JPEG, GIF, PNG, didn't imitate each other, nor did they try to imitate their predecessors like ".bmp" ".tiff" ".xpm", and others.

Vorbis isn't MP3... It shouldn't try to imitate MP3. It's good, and gradually, people will remember the filename, and what that extention means.

Speaking of which, since Ogg is the file format, .ogg was a short-sighted extension in the first place since the other Xiph codecs will likely use the same file format.

I completely agree with that, sort of... They should have named the files based on their contents, not the comtainer format, just like many MPEG4 files are named ".divx", not ".avi"...

However, they still could make it the policy... All they really have to do is rename the extention for all future codecs (eg. Theora), and it won't cause a problem. oggtools/ogmtools use ".ogm" for that very reason...

With that said, it would be difficult. When you have a ogg file with VP3 video, MPEG4 video, MNG animated images, several text streams, FLAC audio, MP3 audio, SPEEX audio, as well as vorbis audio; what exactly would you name that file?

MyStuff.vp3.divx.mng.mp3.txt.flac.speex.vorbis.ogg

Re:Name Idea: OG3

[MyHair]

JPEG, GIF, PNG, didn't imitate each other, nor did they try to imitate their predecessors like ".bmp" ".tiff" ".xpm", and others.

But those were all de facto standards and rose to prominence because prominent applications supported them espeically in the case of JPEG and GIF on the early WWW. Ogg Vorbis had an uphill battle for acceptance (in proprietary OSes with bundled- or standardly-downloaded audio players) from the start becaues mp3, wma and ra were already duking it out to try to be the de facto standard. Perhaps Ogg Vorbis is more prevalent now than last I checked; I know it's in Winamp and every open source player, but is it natively in Windows Media Player and the bundled Apple player yet? Or RealOne? Then again, another poster made the point that Winamp is widely installed as the default player due to teenagers.

Vorbis isn't MP3... It shouldn't try to imitate MP3. It's good, and gradually, people will remember the filename, and what that extention means.

But AFAIK Vorbis still isn't in any portable player, and that's mainly where I'm coming from. The MP3 imitation is my little 'marketing' idea, although I'm a geek and not a marketer. Some extra hype and interest for Vorbis might make it more likely to be included in future hardware decoders for portable players and CD/DVD reader-players. I really really want Ogg Vorbis playable from my car CD player--and at the same price as the lower-end MP3 car players. Then I'll shut up for a while. :-)

---------------

It's the same old problem as the other open source stuff. Geeks think it's cool, and it's like the secret society handshake to know details such as the difference between Ogg and Vorbis, but some of us want it to be accepted more widely (for personal gain, of course--in my case cheap geeky entertainment) and wish for better marketing, but marketing and open source are almost antithetical. To market the product frequently diminishes the producer somehow, in many cases in pride or purpose because to market and be commercially popular was not the ultimate goal. Although in Xiph's case I think they do want commercial popularity.

Re:Name Idea: OG3

[Rysc]

More likely is that Ogg Vorbis would get the extenstion .oga, for Ogg Audio. Then you'd get .ogm for Ogg M(ovie|edia) or perhaps .ogv... Since Og can be pronounced much the same as Ogg, this preserves the name while giving aditional type information, which is a good thing.

.ogg would be a generic extension for any of the above, and probably should be discouraged.

Re:Name Idea: OG3

[evilviper]

But those were all de facto standards and rose to prominence because prominent applications supported them espeically in the case of JPEG and GIF on the early WWW.

Ahem... Ogg Vorbis is a defacto standard, and will rise to prominence for many reasons.

Nothing is a defacto standard until it gets popular... It's a bit of a catch-22 to say that a format is standard BECAUSE it's standard.

Most software players support Vorbis right now. Windows Media Player doesn't AFAIK, but it's always been a late adopter... WMP didn't support MP3 until very, very, late in the game, but that didn't exactly hurt MP3 now did it? And it is quite possible that playing a Vorbis file with WMP would make it download the codec automatically.

I don't know about the Quicktime player, but I do know that Real does indeed have Vorbis support, along with just about every other open format.

But AFAIK Vorbis still isn't in any portable player, and that's mainly where I'm coming from.

I understand, but I don't think stupid marketing gimmicks that will cause more problems will really help...

marketer. Some extra hype and interest for Vorbis might make it more likely to be included in future hardware decoders for portable players and CD/DVD reader-players.

Yes, and naming MP3 CD2 would have done just as much... In other words, very little.

If you are concerned that Vorbis isn't being adopted quickly enough, take a good look at DivX... It's been around significantly longer than Vorbis, there are many times more files floating around in Divx format, and there is much more demand for hardware players (for many reasons I won't go into right now). Still, there is really only one prominent DVD/Divx player on the market, and it's not likely you'll ever see it in your local 'Worst Buy' store.

Vorbis, although not yet as mature, plays just fine on handhelds from Palm, Sharp, and WinCE-based systems... The damn "click" player (or whatever it's called) from IOmega has unoffical support for Ogg via firmware upgrade from what I hear, and there are two other companies promising support for Ogg in the very near future.

Geeks think it's cool, and it's like the secret society handshake to know details such as the difference between Ogg and Vorbis

Yeah, right, like Geeks are keeping it as their little secret. It may seem like secret society, but only because geeks happen to be more knowledegable than the rest of the population. At least half the population of the USA doesn't have any idea what an MP3 is either, so there is another, albeit larger, secret society.

There is a very end-user friendly website telling people anything they could want to know, and more importantly, giving them the codecs they need without them needing to know too much. There are plenty of Ogg files floating around on P2P, and sites like wcpe.org have been streaming music in Vorbis for months upon months now.

It just seems to me that you are impatient, and want everyone to do anything that might possibly speed up commercial adoption one little bit, not taking into account much of anything else. I say you should just relax. Vorbis is showing many signs that it is gaining in popularity, but you can't expect everything to change overnight. I would personally be very interested in buying a CD/MiniCD-based Vorbis player, assuming the battery life is decent, but until then, I am rather happy with my Minidisc collection, and am not in that much of a hurry to change that I can't wait. Just relax, it'll take time, but it is comming.

Winamp?

[MyHair]

Is Winamp evil now? I know AOL owns them, but I didn't think they'd gone evil yet, although I didn't like 3.0 and switched to Freeamp^H^H^H^H^H^H^HZinf (for Windows; still XMMS on X).

I ask because you make it sound as if Winamp is a bad thing but it plays Ogg Vorbis. Maybe I misread the post.

Re:Winamp?

[shaitand]

Actually I find nothing wrong with winamp... nothing particularly good about it either to be honest... What I was villanizing in my post was windows (of course, tis my duty) and I hinted that the various apps teen think are the best for different task from the web. Some are really quite nasty and virus prone, mirc, kazaa, msn messenger, aol messenger, etc, etc, etc. They almost always involve ad-ware and memory resident programs that waste resources on the machine. Most of the time teenagers are technically literate enough to find and download the app...

but not literate enough to know about msconfig and certainly not regedit... they aren't after all 5yr olds, you can only expect so much from them.

Re:Well

[mrscorpio]

Sorry, as much as I like CDex (it kills Audio Catalyst, what I was using previously), EAC is still better.

Chris

Re:Legalese cut-n-paste contradictions strike agai

[evilviper]

I think "All Rights Reserved" can be considered one of the most overused catch phrases of the last 20 years.

No, thanks to complete morons all over the world, "literally" is the most overused, and improperly used term in existance.

Take this interview for instance:

"What was it like working with him?"

"Oh, he is so funny. I litterally laughed myself to death all the time I was working with him."

Yes, it stupid, sad, and pathetic, yet I hear 'literally' used just like this nearly every day in my own experience, as well as through interviews on TV and radio. The single most profuse offenders are Hollywood stars... Ironically, the interviewers don't have the sense to call them on it, and often mis-use 'literally' themselves.

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

Great. You ask "Please let me know of a Windows converter".
You are given one.
"Not that one" you reply.

Jeezuz!

IETF Standards Process

[Luminous Coward]

Before they became RFCs, RFC 3533 and RFC 3534 were IETF Internet-Drafts, respectively known as draft-pfeiffer-ogg-fileformat-02 and draft-walleij-ogg-mediatype-08. RFC 3533 is Informational and RFC 3534 is on the Standards Track.

[RFC3533] The Ogg Encapsulation Format Version 0, Silvia Pfeiffer, May 2003.
[RFC3534] The application/ogg Media Type, Linus Walleij, May 2003.

Re:Good.

[wolverine1999]

Ogg Vorbis sounds better than mp3 to me every day,
with my stereo's speakers.

My favourite encoder for making ogg vorbis files is
BeSweet

Re:Well

[wolverine1999]

Only in linux.

No - I actually use ogg in Windows.
Winamp 2 plays them, and I encode them using
BeSweet

There's OGM also

[wolverine1999]

There is another suffix for Ogg - OGM - that's for when you play movie files using the Ogg Vorbis container format.

There's an alternative being coded called Matroska. Would MATROSKA be easier as a name?

You write as if this is a standard

[cerberusti]

This is not a standard of any type. This is an Informational RFC. Pretty much anybody can get an Informational RFC published. An informational RFC is not endorsed by the IETF as a standard in any way. They are published upon a request by the author and, do not go through the design and review process that a standards track RFC does. They do exactly what the name says, they provide information about something the author felt should be documented.

The Standard

[Anonymous Coward]

In quality terms, it doesn't get any better than EAC. (Unfortunate, and some of us are working on bringing CDex up to that standard.)

There's a Standard for using that to make very, very good rips that should be indistinguishable from the original to just about anyone's ears and beat the pants off anything from Kazaa or even 192kbps FastEnc CBR "scene releases" from Usenet or IRC. I won't tell you the exact name of the standard. Rumour has it there are least three private networks, probably more, dedicated to it, but I don't know the details - only how you can get your own rips to sound great so you can put your CDs away safely and never have to get them out again:

• Rip with Exact Audio Copy 0.9 beta 4 (not the prebetas, they're broken). We've tested and nothing else as good, even cdparanoia. (Sorry, it's Windows. Either try Wine or add Secure Mode to a Free Software ripper and let Hydrogen Audio (the doom9 of audio) et al test it for a few months before you even consider using it.)
• Use Secure Mode, accurate stream, with NO C2 (even if your drive can do it), and disable the cache. (That's Secure Mode, Accurate Stream, Drive Caches Audio Data but NOT Drive is capable of retreiving C2.) Resync on track boundaries. Error Recovery Quality: High. Gap Detection Secure, Strategy any of A, B or C (try changing if you get a "protected" CD that won't rip). Speed Actual (which is usually max), allow speed reduction during extraction as many drives are more reliable reading scratched bits at lower speeds (this way it'll slow down only if it needs to, trying to read through a scratch). You may find spinning up first helps reading some CDs.
• Skip tracks on read or sync errors. You'll get clicks if you don't and you're better off cleaning the CDs than that.
• Do NOT normalise. Ever. (If you want replay gaining, let your Vorbis decoder do that on decoding, but NEVER do it before encoding!)
• On Unknown CDs, automatically access online freedb database. There are sometimes errors, so crosscheck the titles with the case - for correct year and genre, use Allmusic - it's right more often than you are.
• Create an m3u on extraction, and start 1 compressor queued in the background (with no window, after you've got it working) for each processor in your machine, plus 1 if you're hyperthreaded (I use 5). Remember not to close EAC until after there are no files queued for encoding!
• For the naming scheme, use: %A - %C\%A - %C - %N - %T for normal albums. Use a Various Artists scheme too: %C\%C - %N - %A - %T - on CDs with Various Artists, check the Various box in the info at the top and make sure the track titles have a form Artist / Title, so, let's say, Madonna / What The Fuck Do You Think You're Doing :-). This way the names will all come out right. It also ensures that peer-to-peer programs which don't grok directories (most of them) will get the artist, album, and track number.
• Always write a log file. It'll be named after the album, that's the only drawback. Move it into the folder and use a script to rename it or something (I know of three competing ones but won't name them here).
• If you're feeling daring, calibrate your drive's read offset with AccurateRip (don't use that for ripping, though), and enter that offset into EAC (mine is a +12). If your drive can overread leadin AND leadout (get EAC to test that with detect read offset - you can get the read offset with that too, but it is more likely to give false readings than AccurateRip due to an inferior reference CD database), use that, if it can't overread BOTH, do NOT select that option (you'll get garbage). If you calibrate your read offset, use it, otherwise set it to 0. Don't use a combined offset.
• Encode to EITHER FLAC (for lossless, generation-copy free rips) OR Ogg Vorbis 20020717 (1.0) using quality 6.0 or greater (192kbps nominal), 8.0 highly

Re:Legalese cut-n-paste contradictions strike agai

[Anonymous Coward]

The copyright is there so no one can claim copyright over it and avoid people using it.

It just means "We did this. You can do whatever you want with it apart from claiming authorship".

real reasons to use ogg over mp3

[Lord Kholdan]

mp3 players are everywhere, ogg vorbis players are few and far between.

Practically all computers have mp3-codec installed but ogg vorbis remains rare.

Everyone knows what mp3 is, only a tiny fraction knows what ogg vorbis is.

mp3 is inferior in quality/space ratio but with 160+ GB in harddrives and tens of GBs in portable players becoming common is there any real reason to change into an inconvenient and rare format just to save a fraction of a dollar? (In less then 5 GB music collections it's that small in current HD prices. Prices that are going down).

but you can do that all without Ogg

[Trepidity]

There's no reason to use Ogg FLAC -- FLAC itself already supports all that. Ogg adds absolutely nothing (not even metadata tagging! Ogg says it's the responsibility of the bitstream it encapsulates to implement that itself).

uhhh

[deadsaijinx*]

yes it does. I'm watching a divx rip on media player right now.

end transmision

Re:uhhh

[shaitand]

without installing a codec that will always ANY windows video player to play divx??? I don't think so.