Review Of Yopy 3700 Linux PDA

SecondToughest writes "Gizmodo has a recent post referring to a review of the new Yopy 3700 Linux-based PDA. The reviewer seems to like it: 'Overall, this is beautiful hardware. The design is compact when not in use, but when opened the Yopy is quite user friendly. The really great thing about this PDA is the presence of both MC and CF card slots. To me, this is almost the perfect PDA design.'"

Comments

Linux?

[krog]

Isn't a PDA OS better suited to be a low-footprint gem like QNX?

Re:Linux?

[robson]

Isn't a PDA OS better suited to be a low-footprint gem like QNX?

I've wondered this myself. My guess is that the QNX folks either haven't pushed very hard to get their OS into handhelds, or they have tried but eventually gave up. Plus they've probably got their hands full with the non-handheld embedded market.

Re:Linux?

[Qzukk]

Sure, if you're willing to pay the license for it and pass those costs on to the consumer.

Linux has become the way to go embedded on the cheap. If you don't need an RTOS, what in QNX are you paying for?

Re:Linux?

[swb]

It seems that PDAs are in two camps. The original Palm philsophy of "simple-is-better" and the "full-fledged computer" camp, where complete OS functionality and compatibility is desired.

Plus, "it runs Linux" and we all know how important *that* is...

Re:Linux?

[orange_6]

either haven't pushed very hard to get their OS into handhelds, or they have tried but eventually gave up

From their website they have implemented QNX into intelligent assist devices, which are kind of toned down handhelds. It seems that not only would it be perfectly feasible to put it on a handheld, but many of the methods they use could benefit almost all other OSs.

Re:Linux?

[supun]

Depends. With Linux there is no license cost for the OS, with QNX there is. So if the cost of the extra memory to hold a bigger OS footprint, per unit, is less than the OS license, per unit, you'd go with the extra memory and Linux.

Re:Linux?

[RevAaron]

Linux has become the way to go embedded on the cheap. If you don't need an RTOS, what in QNX are you paying for?

Performance. A neat GUI layer. Much smaller memory use.

On my brand new Zaurus SL-C760, there is 64 MB of *RAM* built-in. Why? This isn't "RAM" in the sense as it is on WinCE/PocketPC, where it's split between "program RAM" and stoarage space. It has a hopping 64 MB of dedicated to this, with 128 MB of Flash for storage. I just rebooted my C760 to find out the amount of RAM Linux+QPE takes out of the box: 18 MB! Compare that to 2-3 MB for WinCE, something similar for QNX, and something even smaller for PalmOS. (Granted, PalmOS leaves a lot lacking...) ...and you PalmOS folks thought WinCE was bad! :)

Re:Linux?

[b-baggins]

Did you look at the price of this Linux PDA? What's the use of saving on licensing fees, if you have to spend all your money on memory to get the stupid OS to load.

Re:Linux?

[ndogg]

What about eCos?

Re:Linux?

[Trolling for Profit]

Huh. I just rebooted my Zaurus 5500 with the 3.10 ROM. It took up about 8megs out of 32 to boot the OS and bring up the user interface. But the thing I like about Linux? It's easily customizable. When I stick a memory card into the thing, there are editable shell scripts that manage the mount/unmount process. I can modify those to my liking without recompiling anything. I didn't like the font chosen by a free Japanese input method I installed on the thing, so I modified the sources, recompiled, and copied the library onto the PDA. I'd just like to see you do the same with any other platform.

Re:Linux?

[GlassHeart]

It's easily customizable. [...] I didn't like the font chosen by a free Japanese input method I installed on the thing, so I modified the sources, recompiled, and copied the library onto the PDA.

I like Linux a lot, but some of you advocates need to get a dose of reality. Linux is in fact highly customizable, but it's not easily customizable. What's the percentage of PDA users in general who can follow the steps you described without help?

Re:Linux?

[GlassHeart]

if the cost of the extra memory to hold a bigger OS footprint, per unit, is less than the OS license, per unit, you'd go with the extra memory and Linux.

That's not all of it. The extra memory consumes extra power, which is a critical resource on any handheld device. It also makes the device physically larger and heavier, which are both important attributes. I'm not saying the equation necessarily changes because of these factors, but you can't just ignore them.

Re:Linux?

[RevAaron]

I do the same on my own platform, Dynapad, without ever having to waste my time with a lengthy compilation process. If I want to change a font, I simply change it- what kind of customizability involves recompiling sources to change a font?

Just out of curiousity: why would one want to modify the mount/umount process? Anything useful?

Re:Linux?

[randomErr]

Sure, if you're willing to pay the license for it and pass those costs on to the consumer.

Linux has become the way to go embedded on the cheap. If you don't need an RTOS, what in QNX are you paying for?

QNX, Linux. Bah. Just get a real OS and GUI that can work in 64k of ram like Contiki.

Re:Linux?

[harrkev]

Depends. With Linux there is no license cost for the OS, with QNX there is.

Like this is a big deal??? I want a Linux PDA, but they are still too expensive... When you are talking $500 for the hardware, what is another $20 or so for the software.

<RANT>
I thought that one advantage of using Linux was no "Microsoft Tax." Well, this may be true, but ther are a dozen Winblows CE devices cheaper than the cheapest current Zaurus or Yopy.

In the 80's, Wendy's asked "where's the beef?" (remember that?)

In the 00's, I ask "Where's the savings?"
</RANT>

Re:Linux?

[Locutus]

bring up an app like TaskMan to see you have the AddressBook, Calendar, ToDo, and Email all preloaded/running. Stop those apps and look at the memory used by the processes and you'll see something far less than 18MB Looks more like 5-6MB to me though System Info shows 13MB used. Strange. This is on a SL-5600( only 32MB of RAM ).

Oh, and these are handheld computers and not PDAs. There's a big difference. Not to mention that these have been on the market for less than 2 years while MS-WinCE has been trying for about 7 years. Palm is finally growing it's OS so time will tell if it's going to grow up to become a real OS and not just a PDA OS.

If you want a small Linux then go look at the microLinux's out there for embedded processors and uControllers.

BTW, I do find 2-3MB hard to believe for a MS WinCE system. Are they playing the same tricks with memory they played with Win95? The resouce available shows 75% normally? Lets just call that 100% and the users will think it's a better system....

LoB

Re:Linux?

[Trolling for Profit]

Well if the changes are packed up into installable software packages then anybody can use them, even your grandmother. I don't know of any other PDAs capable of reading memory cards that aren't formatted with the fat filesystem. In this case, I modified the sdcard mount script to mount ext2fs cards with the noatime option to reduce flash wearing. Also, I don't know of any PDAs that allow you to install foreign language input methods without reflashing the rom with a foreign one (and thus violating copyrights in the process) or buying expensive specialized third party software. Third party software in the Windows world is generally buggy, for all the obvious reasons: closed source (sometimes API documention is not enough), and the typical anti-competitive practices of Redmond. Granted, Microsoft allows more freedom and provides WinCE source.. but it's nowhere close to the flexibility of Linux source.

Re:Linux?

[GlassHeart]

Well if the changes are packed up into installable software packages then anybody can use them, even your grandmother.

That's great, but it's still harder than "easily customizable" in my book. One thing that geeks take for granted is information: it's hard to get information. All these cool things you read on Slashdot? Most people don't even know they exist, much less where to look for them. This is why PC operating systems really have to be pre-installed, even if it raises labor costs, for example. This is also why it's possible to sell boxed sets of things you can download for free.

I don't know of any other PDAs capable of reading memory cards that aren't formatted with the fat filesystem. [...] I don't know of any PDAs that allow you to install foreign language input methods without reflashing the rom

All testaments to the flexibility of Linux, and perhaps of open source software in general, which I agree with. But I was talking about your "easily customizable" comment, which grossly overestimates the will and ability of most PDA users.

Not exactly in-depth review

[JUSTONEMORELATTE]

Short but, well, short.
Here's the full text, 'cause ya never know.

Apart from Sharp's Zaurus line, you don't hear too much about Linux-based PDAs - Pocket PCs and Palms tend to receive the bulk of the attention. We'd never heard of the company before, but G.Mate has a new Linux-powered PDA out, the Yopy 3700, which has a 206MHz processor, 128MB of RAM, a CompactFlash expansion slot, a 65,000 color screen, and a built-in keyboard. William Hungerford gives it high marks:
The Yopy is based on an eye-pleasing clamshell design. With the screen down the Yopy is about the same depth as a paperback book, making it about twice as thick as the normal PDA. Most of the depth comes from the well designed, built-in keyboard. In fact, this keyboard is much more agreeable to my fat fingers than other keyboards I've used. When you flip open the cover you're presented with a good looking TFT LCD screen. Overall, this is beautiful hardware. The design is compact when not in use, but when opened the Yopy is quite user friendly. The really great thing about this PDA is the presence of both MC and CF card slots. To me, this is almost the perfect PDA design.

--

Re:Not exactly in-depth review

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the summary. You need to click on the "Page 2" link to get to the full review (it's not exactly easy to spot, yet another site that covers itself in banner ads and becomes unusuable as a result.)

Re:Not exactly in-depth review

[IamTheRealMike]

You appear to have missed the 2nd page, which has an interview with the people behind it.

Re:Not exactly in-depth review

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot page two of the review:

The Yopy 3700 runs on the Linupy Operating System designed by G.Mate. With the 128 megs of RAM, the Yopy really hums. In fact, The stability of the Linupy Operating System rivals the Palm Operating System. As far as programs are concerned, the Yopy comes with the basic PIMS (Task, Schedule, Contact, Notepad, Diary, PIMS Backup) that are quite easy to use. You also receive Yopy Office which allows you to create and sync documents and spreadsheets. Overall you can use this PDA just like you would any other PDA for keeping track of your hectic schedule.

Okay, now let's talk about the areas for improvement. Once I mastered the built in software, I was pretty much stuck. There are a few games included but that's about it. Until Yopy gets some Linux developers to help them out, there is very little software available. I also wasn't able to use my wireless card because of the lack of drivers. As I mentioned earlier, the lack of software isn't strictly a Yopy issue. Linux Operating systems for PDAs will only be as strong as the development community behind it. That brings up the next issue: at this point the Yopy is only designed to sync with the Windows Operating System. G.Mate is going to have a hard time embracing Linux developers if the Yopy isn't compatible with a Linux desktop computer. The other concern I had with the Yopy is that there are no icons. All navigation is done through a menu bar much like the Windows Start Menu. Maybe that's a minor issue, but I love my icons.

I recently spoke to Seungchae Cheong, Sales and Marking Manager for G.Mate, Inc about these concerns and a few other questions. At the time of this review, the Yopy 3700 had not been released in the US.

What type of customer is the Yopy designed for?

We are not only focusing on finding cooperation or OEM business in the foreign market, but also targeting the end users as having more programs which are being developed by third parties.

There seems to be a concern in the Linux community about the lack of a Yopy desktop for Linux. Is that something that is being currently addressed?

We and a third party are working with that program now.

Is it possible to use icons on the Yopy? If not, will that ever be an option?

Yes. It is possible. We thought the menu bar would be more convenient than that.

Are drivers, such as network card drivers, etc. being developed by Yopy or is that something you depend on Linux Developers to do?

Basically yes. Because we cannot test them here. Our resellers are working with that such as GPRS card, Bluetooth card, etc. now.

What networks cards does the Yopy support? I currently use a belkin card and can't seem to find any drivers.

There are two wlan cards, Linksys and Buffalo. The cards based on Prism2 chip could work, but we have not tested all of them. For your reference, see the site of our reseller in Europe, www.tuxmedia.com

As with most Linux PDAs, the main concern is the amount of software available. Does Yopy have a plan to combat that issue?

We have some resellers which are selling the YOPY and working with the programs for the YOPY now. And we will continue to find third parties and linux developer groups which are interested in developing applications for the YOPY.

Will you be releasing the Yopy 3700 in the United States?

Yes. We will. We are talking about selling the YOPY in America with a company at the moment.

Overall, I'm quite impressed with this PDA. If this was a Palm or Pocket PC PDA, I'd say this is close to my perfect PDA. However, because of my lack of Linux Development knowledge, I was extremely limited in what I could do with the Yopy. I do think that if G.Mate can get developer support for the Linupy Operating System, this PDA will be a true contender in the future. The one thing I've seen while following the Yopy is that G.Mate really listens to their customers. I have no doubt they will continue to listen and improve the Yopy. I for one will eagerly follow the progression of the Yopy 3700.

For $499, it's hard not to consider the Zaurus...

[bc90021]

The reviewer does like the Yopy, but for an expected retail price of $499, you could get a Zaurus SL-5600 that has essentially all the same functionality, with a better processor (400MHz XScale as opposed to the older 206MHz). Granted, the 5600 only has 96MB RAM, but since they both have expansion slots, that's not really an issue.

Also, the Zaurus already has a large developer community, and has drivers for things like wireless cards, and has plenty of software.

I certainly don't want to see Yopy fail (competition is generally good, and having more Linux PDAs is good), but IMHO they should be offering a little more if they want to be competitive.

So, it appears that...

[Xeth]

...They've finally ported Linux to the GBA:SP. 'Bout damn time, too...

*Ahem*!

[TheScienceKid]

MMC and CF not MC and CF iirc

Yopy vs. Zaurus

[Gothmolly]

It packs more RAM and more battery life than the Z-5500, but the Z still has equivalent features - MMC/SD slot (that does NOT honor the DRM of SD cards, btw), a CF slot, plus IR. The Zaurus is under very active development at OpenZaurus.

Re:Yopy vs. Zaurus

[morgue-ann]

MMC/SD slot (that does NOT honor the DRM of SD cards, btw

Unless they're using the key storage area as general-purpose storage, this isn't saying much.

The card and the spec are divided into pieces. Most of the card is just sectors with no authentication to access them and no encryption done on the contents.

That's why you get 62MB on a 64MB card (for something typically more expensive than SmartMedia or CompactFlash, grrr).

The other 2MB or so is for key storage, is spec'd in a different volume & uses crypto tricks to try to avoid giving up keys to those who shouldn't have them. [I'm guessing here. I have the crypto part of the spec, but I won't read it unless I actually need to implement those features.]

If you could get that 2MB back when you aren't doing DRM (e.g. in the digital cameras I do firmware for) it would be great, but not likely to be interoperable.

Instead I wish mfg.s would just make cards with no crypto. I think the spec allows this. That works against the goals of the SD forum though.

MMC doesn't reserve space for keys, but it's a 1 bit wide interface. SD can transfer up to 12.5 megabytes/second.
-M

"really great thing"

[ih8apple]

From the review: "The really great thing about this PDA is the presence of both MC and CF card slots."

Considering how small my 8-in-1 reader is, I'm surprised they didn't just integrate in one of those and be able to read CompactFlash Type I (CF-I), CompactFlash Type II (CF-II), CompactFlash USB (CF-USB), CompactFlash Ultra (CF-Ultra), MultiMedia Card (MMC), Secure Digital Card (SD), Micro Drive, SmartMedia, Memory Stick, Memory Stick Switch, Magic Gate Memory Stick, and Magic Gate Memory Stick Duo memory cards.

Besides, this guy is easily impressed if all he cares about is being able to read data from a couple of different formats.

Re:"really great thing"

[bear_phillips]

The cools thing is having TWO slots. On my zaurus I have an 128mb card in teh MC slot. I use that as my "hard drive". In the CF slot I use my wireless card. Most Palms and Pocket PCs only have one slot.

Re:"really great thing"

[akaina]

I do the same thing. The wireless drivers are great too. My only complaint is the 1hr wireless battery life.

Re:"really great thing"

[Anonymous Coward]

If you go with a socket low-power card, you'll increase your battery life to about 1:45 - 2 hrs.
Downside is if you're using Sharp's rom, that card won't work with any of the wifi sniffers out there. The card itself works great though.

Re:"really great thing"

[Fammy2000]

SanDisk will soon market a solution for you WiFi and memory needing PDA users. Too bad the Pocket PC version comes out first.

Re:"really great thing"

[Anonymous Coward]

You can get a battery extender pack. It takes AA batteries and plugs into your AC/DC jack. Not perfect but helps.

Re:"really great thing"

[chef_raekwon]

MultiMedia Card (MMC)

ohhh....i thought it was the Mastercard slot(MC)...couldnt figure out why the other was called cf, and not visa :)

Re:"really great thing"

[connsmythe96]

It wouldn't do any good to release it for the Zaurus, since the Zaurus's SD slot can only do memory. You can't use other devices. At least last time I checked that was the case...

Re:"really great thing"

[Mr. Bad Example]

From the review: "The really great thing about this PDA is the presence of both MC and CF card slots."

MC card slot...worst rapper ever.

Re:"really great thing"

[Anonymous Coward]

It looks like he fixed the MMC typo

Sync with Windows only?

[FosterSJC]

Is this a joke:

"At this point the Yopy is only designed to sync with the Windows Operating System."

So I am supposed to dual-boot, first developing my own software in Linux, then boot into windows just to load it onto the device. NO THANK YOU. Zaurus it is.

Re:Sync with Windows only?

[Rogerborg]

>So I am supposed to dual-boot, first developing my own software in Linux, then boot into windows just to load it onto the device. NO THANK YOU

1. Boot to linux.
2. Write your paradigm busting version of HelloWorld
3. Write it to MMC or CF
4. Remove the MMC or CF card from your writer.
5. Insert the MMC or CF card into the Yopy.
6. Gape in amazement as the Yopy mounts your media.
7. Run HelloWorld.
8. Masturbate over your 1337 5k331z and beat your pigeon chest like the mighty c0d3 w4rr10r you are.

If you couldn't figure out steps 3-5 by yourself, I doubt I'll be queuing up to join your sourceforge project any time soon.

Re:Sync with Windows only?

[timeOday]

That's not what Sync means. If you schedule one appointment on your PC calendaring app and another appointment on your PDA there's supposed to be a push-button way of "synchronizing" the two so both calendars have both appointments.

It's not simply copying a file.

Re:Sync with Windows only?

[RevAaron]

It may come as a shock, but there is a difference between SYNCing devices like this and developing for them. Syncing involves ... synchronizing your PIM data most often, as well as installing applications. However, had you looked into it, you'd see that development is done with Linux, and there are a number of ways to do data transfers between the Yopy and Linux (as well as OS X, Windows). It's just PIM syncing which requires Windoze, which is still retarded, but you seemed to have confused a couple things. :)

Re:Sync with Windows only?

[dr_dank]

8. Masturbate over your 1337 5k331z and beat your pigeon chest like the mighty c0d3 w4rr10r you are.

So thats why my programming projects suck, I left out the furious masturbation part.

Thanks!

Re:Sync with Windows only?

[carlos_benj]

You should have disagreed with the grandparent then. The parent was responding to the idea that not being able to sync in Linux meant he would have to dual boot in order to load new programs that he'd written on the Linux box. That can be accomplished with a file copy.

I'm feeling a bit Yopy ...

[burgburgburg]

but some Pepto and Kim Chee should clear that up.

Re:I'm feeling a bit Yopy ...

[Anonymous Coward]

but some Pepto and Kim Chee should clear that up.

screw that - get me some KY and 'Lil Kim, thank you. :D

Sounds good, but...

[teamhasnoi]

does it run Windows CE?

Re:Sounds good, but...

[Rogerborg]

I call funny, flamebait, and insightful on you. I was wondering this too. If people find that too offensive, what about other OS's? BSD? A different set of GNU/Linux tools? QNX? Heck, BeOS?

That said, at this price, I don't see myself rushing out to replace my iPAQ any time soon.

Re:Sounds good, but...

[RevAaron]

I totally agree. I've a C760, and if it wasn't for my own platform (Dynapad, see below), I'd be wishing that this machine ran CE. (vanilla WinCE, not PocketPC) The machine itself is amazing, but as a PDA (or even a "PMT" *snicker*), the QPE-based Linux PDAs leave a lot to desire as far as software.

Is that a Yopy3700 in your pocket?

[GillBates0]

With the 128 megs of RAM, the Yopy really hums.

That's all we needed now....PDA's that hum. Just build in a fan and heat sink, and we'll have people saying: "Hey, is that a Yopy 3700 in your pocket or are you really really really really happy to see me".

Re:Is that a Yopy3700 in your pocket?

[TheScienceKid]

For that real humm.... what you need is some plutonium to give you that radioactive decay sound a la "The Simpsons" tomacco episod.

Re:Is that a Yopy3700 in your pocket?

[geekmetal]

and the girls will say "Yopy.. what a cute name! and it also hums? weeeeeee!!!

Price.

[Kai_MH]

There's gotta be a cheaper way to make a good Linux PDA. That's what's keeping me from buying a PDA... I'd rather carry around my custom ITX system with a 5" LCD.... Sorry.

which one?

[drfrog]

im looking for one that would allow ssh access {slogin} to my server computers

i cant seem to find any details on this

anyone have any info?

Re:which one?

[akaina]

Get a Zaurus.
not only can you run SSH on a konsole, but you can also run sshd and control your handheld using your desktop. They even have X11 and an Xserver for the Zaurus. You can even use VNC and take control of your windows GUI with a Zaurus.
The Zaurus rules.

Re:which one?

[Anonymous Coward]

the Zaurus has an ssh/sshd ipk package.

Re:which one?

[NastyGnat]

The Zaurus will let you SSH into your Server. I suspect a flashed IPaq would do the same but it's much easier to use the internet supplied openssh-X.XX.ipk package to install it and forget about it.

size

[leomekenkamp]

With the screen down the Yopy is about the same depth as a paperback book

I'm sorry, but 69 × 103 × 24.7mm means that this pda is about 14.7mm too thick for me. IMHO a pda should easily fit in a pocket.

Re:size

[slide-rule]

Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion and size preference, but the dimensions listed by the parent are actually *smaller* than my Palm III in the little leather case I tote it around in (because, well, gravity happens). About the only pocket I wouldn't be able to put this smaller form factor into would be my jean pockets, but then I'm not going to put a PDA in my jean pockets either (because sitting happens). If I'm slumming, the side pocket of some cargo pants fit the bill... if I'm business-y, then sport coat or shirt pocket would be just large enough. Just a contrasting opinion. YMMV.

Re:size

[jafuser]

With the screen down the Yopy is about the same depth as a paperback book

Like this?

Or Like this?

From the picture

[gantrep]

It looks like the buttons would be small and hard to use. Then again, a linux-based pda without a full keyboard doesn't make much sense.

200mhz is a teensy slow for a pda now, 128 megs is great.

Anyone know anything about the battery life on that? CF is great also. My pda is stuck with sdio, and no wifi for it yet, just bluetooth.

Not super compelling in my opinion, but it's great that the the selection of Linux PDAs is increasing. It will be better for everyone in the longs run, even users of PocketPC, because a Linux-based pda actually stands a chance of competing and competition sparks innovation(Palm is great, but in my opinion, Palms are a different kind of product and don't compete as directly with PocketPC as the Zaurus and this does)

Re:From the picture

[awakened tech]

200MHz is only slow when running Windows CE. The Tungsten is regarded as pretty much the quickest PDA (from the users point of view) yet only has a 177MHz processor.

Its not how many Hz you got, its what you do with them!

Perfect, indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

>To me, this is almost the perfect PDA design

So... it has no third-party software, no support for wireless networking and no icons (!) in the user interface.

Sounds "perfect" to me, too.

NOT!

Distribution in Europe

[joestar]

For your information, the Yopy machines are distributed in Europe by "TuXMedia" which I can really recommend, smart and efficient people. They also do Linux development/hack for the Yopy. Here is the URL: http://www.tuxmedia.com/ .

MMC and CF

[iamacat]

sounds like a bad design for a PDA. Memory cards are cheap and people would rather buy whatever kind than have bigger, fatter device. CompactFlash port, in particular is very bulky. As for plugins like a camera, USB would be a better interface. Doesn't it already have a USB port for the desktop?

IRDA is also not really good for anything. People have to wiggle their devices for minutes just to send a business card. Forget about trying to HotSync with a laptop. Save that space for bluetooth or 802.11.

Re:MMC and CF

[unDiWahn]

I don't have too much trouble with IRDA. As in, it works fine for me -- admittedly I don't use it an excessive amount.

And no, USB likely wouldn't be a better choice, as to my knowledge there've only been two PDAs with the USB host controller built in -- meaning most PDAs can only act as a device on a pc, not a controller for cameras and the like.

Compactflash is robust, and getting faster. The only other format to offer the same range of features is the blossoming range of Secure Digital devices.

Re:MMC and CF

[Freedom Bug]

CF is for IO expansion. At least on the Zaurus, typically you'd put memory in the SD slot and an 802.11B or Bluetooth in the CF slot. You can get SD 802.11B or Bluetooth cards, so maybe they'd be better off with 2 SD slots, but I'm dubious: most CF IO cards are slightly bigger than the slot, I'd hate to see you much an SD IO card protudes.

Bryan

Re:MMC and CF

[bear_phillips]

The whole reason to have MMC and CF is so you can use BOTH at the same time. On my Zaurus I use the MMC for extra storage and at the same time use my CF slot for my wireless card. Having 2 slots is great.

Re:MMC and CF

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I've had good luck with my palm V and IR syncing/business card sending etc. I think you are on crack.

Re:MMC and CF

[Bloodshot]

I have a Sharp Zaurus 5500 that has both a CF and a SD port. Um, I don't see how the "CompactFlash port, in particular is very bulky". I'm looking at the port right now, and it's probably less than half the height of the device. To me, that does not say bulky.

Now, a direct USB connection would be way cool for the Zaurus. I know that you can buy a cable for about US$30 that plugs into the bottom of the Zaurus and into a USB port, which means you no longer have to use the cradle to connect it to your PC.

Re:MMC and CF

[ViXX0r]

I have the Yopy 3000 and it DOES have a USB host controller built-in (it's available through some of the pins on the back under a slip-cover). Mind you I haven't found any good way to use it yet, but it's there and well documented.

Re:MMC and CF

[RevAaron]

Now, a direct USB connection would be way cool for the Zaurus. I know that you can buy a cable for about US$30 that plugs into the bottom of the Zaurus and into a USB port, which means you no longer have to use the cradle to connect it to your PC.

That just allows you to do the connection to the PC without a cradle- it doesn't allow you to use USB devices with your Z. That said, for more than $30, you can get a USB Host CF Card, allowing your Z to use USB devices for which it has drivers. Call me nuts, but I'd rather have CF- getting USB if I really wanted it. Imagine an ugly and slow USB->Wifi adapter taped to the back of your PDA...

USB really isn't meant for a PDA. Who wants cables and other stuff hanging off your PDA? CF works well because it can be integrated well at a small cost in size.

Re:MMC and CF

[trifster]

informative...more like troll...everyone I know has clammored for MMC and CF in the pda. 256SD for the MP3's and a CF for the wifi/bluetooth/modem/GPRS and you have a nice powerhouse toy and a reason to leave the laptop home.

Re:MMC and CF

[gladed]

IrDA not good for anything? IrDA less convenient than Bluetooth or 802.11? You've got to be kidding me. On a Palm, here's how to send a business card:

• IrDA: hold down contacts button, point at target, *BAM* it's done.
• Bluetooth: select business card, inquire for devices in range (3-5 seconds), select target device, punch in PIN codes, finally send the data.
• WiFi: !?!?, curse, change batteries.

IrDA takes up hardly any space in the design (you can easily find transceivers less than 10x5x4mm), uses hardly any power, and can have about 500% faster effective throughput. What's not to love?

Re:MMC and CF

[theLOUDroom]

sounds like a bad design for a PDA. Memory cards are cheap and people would rather buy whatever kind than have bigger, fatter device. CompactFlash port, in particular is very bulky. As for plugins like a camera, USB would be a better interface. Doesn't it already have a USB port for the desktop?

There is a huge difference between a USB host controller and a USB device. In order to be a USB 1.1 compliant host you much be able to source 5VDC 1.2A Most PDAs are 3.3V internally, and carry nowhere near that amount of current capability. Yes, the are ways to get around this, and the are new standards on the way, but what good does that do now if you can put USB on the box?

CF is a great interface for PDAs. It's open and it's just a miniturized PCMCIA bus. That means it's really easy for manufacturers to take their existing designs and produce them is a smaller CF card for factor.

Besides the technical reasons why USB isn't that great of an idea, there are other issues as well. With the CF wifi card for my Zaurus, the antenna sticks out of the slot a little bit, and that's it. I shudder when I imagine using a USB wifi adaptor with it. I'd be forced to have some oddly-shaped little box dangling by a cord from my PDA. How much of a pain in the ass would that be to take in and out of your pocket?

IRDA is also not really good for anything. People have to wiggle their devices for minutes just to send a business card. Forget about trying to HotSync with a laptop. Save that space for bluetooth or 802.11.

Actually IRDA is really useful. It's about the only fully standardized way to exchange data between almost all modern PDAs. It's useful for a lot more things than busness cards too. I can just hold my Zaurus next to the IR port on my laptop. A little popup tells my windows sees the Zaurus, and then I can send it whatever files I want. No wires to carry around, no extra drivers to install. It would be silly not to implement IRDA. The amount of hardware resources required is tiny. It's probably less than 1cm^2 of board space. Maybe less than .5cm^2. The serial port is already going to be built into the processor anyways.
If you don't like it, don't use it, but IRDA is not the reason this thing doesn't have built-in wifi.

Re:MMC and CF

[Anonymous Coward]

sounds like a bad design for a PDA. Memory cards are cheap and people would rather buy whatever kind than have bigger, fatter device. CompactFlash port, in particular is very bulky. As for plugins like a camera, USB would be a better interface. Doesn't it already have a USB port for the desktop?

are you nuts? Cf slot is REQUIRED in a pda. how else to you put in a 802.11b/g/z/eieio card? how about the myriad of other cf card options?

My SL-5500 is smaller than an Ipaq and does much more. plus I currently have 512 meg of storage in the thing with a single SD card, I can use the CF cards from my mp3 player in it, or from my camera, etc...

Sorry but a PDA that doesn't have a CF slot is a pda that is seriously lacking.

I have owned 7 PDA's in my lifetime.. and until the zaurus came around Palm was the only useable one. Suffered through the phillips and HP CE based devices and the mess that is PocketPC came back to the onle useable which is handspring to replace my aging palm-pilot. and was dissapointed that they springboard slot was never used as well as it could have been.

Re:MMC and CF

[pesc]

IRDA is also not really good for anything

On my old PDA (Psion Revo) I use the IRDA port to connect to my GSM phone. This allows the PDA to control the phone (phonebook, ring signals, logos, SMS, etc). But the nicest feature is that it allows the PDA to phone ordinary modems, giving me internet access anywhere in the world.

It's only 9600 baud, but that is OK for E-mail and short telnet sessions.

Re:MMC and CF

[Bloodshot]

I would prefer no cables either, as wireless is the best way to go (there is wireless access where I work). Having a direct USB connection could mean you could still do the whole ethernet-over-USB thing that you do with the cradle.

My next purchase for my Zaurus will be a WiFi CF card so I can surf during meetings...

Re:MMC and CF

[73939133]

CompactFlash port, in particular is very bulky. As for plugins like a camera, USB would be a better interface.

With a CF card, the device disappears almost entirely into the handheld. That's a good thing. With SDIO or MS expansion devices, the device mostly sits outside the handheld and is prone to breaking off.

Doesn't it already have a USB port for the desktop?

USB connections are not symmetric, so having a USB hotsync port tells you nothing about whether it can control a camera. But I think the Yopy, very unusally for a PDA, actually can act as a USB host controller. That alone would give it a big leg up for many mobile Linux applications.

Of course, you can plug a USB controller into the CF port and use the same USB devices you would use with your desktop machine, since the Linux kernel already has all the drivers...

IRDA is also not really good for anything. People have to wiggle their devices for minutes just to send a business card.

IrDA works and it works well. Yes, you have to point the two devices roughly at each other, but that's all. IrDA also costs very little to add to a handheld, every handheld has it, and it is expected. Any PDA manufacturer that were to leave off IrDA just couldn't be taken seriously.

Re:MMC and CF

[RevAaron]

Having a direct USB connection could mean you could still do the whole ethernet-over-USB thing that you do with the cradle.

That's what I have with my C760. :) Although with it, I've run into a wholly new problem- NetFront (the browser) won't use the USBnet connection. Although I can easily ping, telnet or web browse (in a non-QPE browser) to any site via my iBook and usbnet, NetFront needs you to "get connected," regardless of the status of the usb-ethernet. hmpf.

I must admit, cradles weren't ever quite my thing. A well designed one is well I suppose, provided the unit slides in nice and easy- like with most PalmOS devices. I went through 2 crappy Linksys WCF12 cards (both broke after a couple weeks- both on the Dell Axim and Zaurus!), and was back to browsing with the cradle, and that was a huge pain in the ass... for that, a non-cradle would be muuuch better. But for $30, one may as well get an ethernet or wifi card. :)

Yes I think it may be

[Anonymous Coward]

So I turn to my buddies while we were watching the game, and say "Ok, stop me if you've heard this one."

"At this point the Yopy..." I paused and look at them, setting myself up the funny bomb... "is only designed to sync with the Windows Operating System."

Well sir, I have never seen a group of grown men reduced to laugh spasms so quickly. We were all only half-drunk too, yet our but gusting chortling resonated across the suburbs.

Yes sir, someone set you up for a funny night of PDA sync jokes and we are all invited.

The waiting...

[geekmetal]

The Yopy 3700 is developed in South Korea and is currently available in France, Austria and the UK for a MSRP of $499 US.

Hmm.. any idea when it will be available here in the US? Anybody?

Re:The waiting...

[TheScienceKid]

OF course.... I'm sure you can't wait..... it's not like us British are ever last to get something. /me whistles {/SARCASM}

Re:The waiting...

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that makes sense dont it?

Re:The waiting...

[tblumer]

SDG Systems is taking pre-orders, expecting units by the end of July.

You see

[Mr_Silver]

... the majority of people (ie. non Slashdot crowd) who will buy a PDA don't give a flying toss about what the underlying operating system is.

For them:

• It must do all the general PIM stuff well
• It must be stable
• It must be feature rich
• It must support whatever media they currently use (MMC, SD etc.etc)
• It must sync with their computer (note they say "computer" when they generally mean "windows").

The fact that it's Linux based is not going to be a major selling point. When your data is on MC and CF cards, thats a major selling point.

A story: One of my co-workers asked me what I thought about the up and coming Linux based Motorola phone. My comment was that the fact it was running Linux makes absolutely no difference. If Motorola implement the same horribly awkward , difficult to use and ugly interface that they have then nothing will have really changed.

The underlying OS is largely irrelevant, it's what runs on top that makes all the difference.

Re:You see

[RevAaron]

Did you read the article? I quote:

If this was a Palm or Pocket PC PDA, I'd say this is close to my perfect PDA. However, because of my lack of Linux Development knowledge, I was extremely limited in what I could do with the Yopy.

This person- who likely didn't get the Yopy just because it runs Linux (like a lot of folks do with the Z) thought that it would've been great had this hardware been running PalmOS or PocketPC. Not only did the reviewer state that he was limited by the Yopy, but because he didn't have the "Linux development knowledge" to make it truly useful. Now, that could mean a number of things, but it ain't a compliment.

It is very true that the underlying OS is irrelevant, but until the Linux PDA developers advance "what runs on top," the stigma that Linux is a PIA to use will remain.

Re:You see

[Anonymous Coward]

The underlying OS dictates what you can run on top of it.

And you would be flaming your arse off if the underlying OS was Windows, so don't tell me it doesn't matter.

Re:You see

[timeOday]

... the majority of people (ie. non Slashdot crowd) who will buy a PDA don't give a flying toss about what the underlying operating system is.

Most of the market for $500 PDA's *is* the slashdot crowd, and other computer enthusiasts.

Somebody who doesn't know the difference between this and a $100 Palm buys the Palm.

Re:You see

[Mr_Silver]

Most of the market for $500 PDA's *is* the slashdot crowd, and other computer enthusiasts.

Never underestimate the vocalness of a businessman with a lot of spare cash or a company willing to spend money on him.

From what I've seen, that seems to be how the PocketPC pushed Palm out as the PDA of choice in a large number of UK based companies I've worked in.

Re:You see

[saintlupus]

Somebody who doesn't know the difference between this and a $100 Palm buys the Palm.

Heh. I do know the difference, and I still bought a hundred dollar Palm.

Actually, that was more than two years ago. It's still more than enough.

--saint

Vaporware no more!

[Rudeboy777]

This thing has been in development a looooong time, here's a mention of it in an April 2000 Slashdot article: (No release date announced indeed)

Re:Vaporware no more!

[Anonymous Coward]

I owned a Yopy3000 for one and a half year.. I dont know if Yopy is vapoware.

Re:Vaporware no more!

[Anonymous Coward]

Modup this one.

How can you say that Yopy is vaporware? Did you know thaty been selling Yopy PDAs for 2 years?

it's ok with me

[gantrep]

Because I'm an American and I don't know how thick a milimeter is without picturing an inch and then trying to picture something that goes into that 2.54 times and then taking a tenth of that.

Re:it's ok with me

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell, I'm an American and I can't even get my cookies spaced one inch apart on the cookie sheets.

PDAs with hinges

[thepacketmaster]

I started off with a Visor Prism for a couple of years and really liked it. Then I received a Sony Clie with the hinge and swivel. While I haven't had any problems yet (I've only had it about 1 year now), I notice that it seems more loose and I'm concerned about it falling apart. Do these hinge designs really hold up?

Uhh....

[JoeLinux]

Considering their size, and the fact that they have a 206MHz processor, you could maybe fit more in...that wouldn't be such a ridiculous idea... Of course, the 400MHz Zaurus would probably be a better choice. I always thought that a bunch of custom Linux-On-A-Chips connected together in a really tight form factor would make for the ultimate in Clustering...

Joe

Re:Uhh....

[stalbott972]

So what you want a Beowulf cluster inside your PDA now?????

well kiss that battery life goodbye.

SDG Systems taking pre-orders

[Anonymous Coward]

Here

Re:SDG Systems taking pre-orders

[tblumer]

Yes, the article mentions that G.Mate is talking with a US company regarding selling the YOPY in the US. SDG Systems is the unnamed company and is now taking pre-orders for delivery by the end of July.

Re:SDG Systems taking pre-orders

[insulator]

They are selling only to North America.

$499?

[markv242]

It astounds me that PDA makers continue to believe that they can charge more than $250 for their hardware and get any serious amount of sales. I haven't noticed a whole lot of innovation from PDA-makers (other than the Hiptop) and their core functionality (contacts, appointments, notes) has been co-opted by everyone from the cellphone makers to Apple with the iPod.

Until someone can give me some really compelling reasons to upgrade from my old Handspring, I will continue to use my money to purchase more reasonable hardware upgrades: that is to say, more RAM for the laptop, bigger drives for the desktop, etc.

Re:$499?

[don_carnage]

I've been shopping for a new PDA and it seems that the Dell Axim X5 at $200 beats anything else on the market for features and price. With Palm, for example, you'd have to pay close to $400 for a PDA with color, MP3, SD, CF, etc. and I just can't see spending that much on something that I use for maybe 2 hours a day.

Re:$499?

[Joehonkie]

Seriously I got the top of line Axim X5 for 300 bucks. This yopy thing is low res and slow for the price. I was even tempted by the Zaurus but the X5 has the best bang for your buck. Linpus has a distro that works on some pocketPC devices. I am scared to try it out until I know how to reinstall PokcetPC 2003 easily though.

Re:$499?

[don_carnage]

My concern with running PocketPC (I've been on Palm OS for 4 years now) is the interface. Is it just a version of Windows made to fit on a PDA, or is it a genuine PDA OS complete with shortcuts for dealing with lack of 1024x768 desktop + mouse + keyboard?

What about software? Do you have to purchase every single application, or is there a good deal of freeware (games, etc.) available?

Re:$499?

[Joehonkie]

There's a lot of freeware and cheap shareware and the OS is NOT windows. It is a totally separate PDA OS.

Re:$499?

[don_carnage]

Thanks!

Re:$499?

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux work on the Dell Axim?

Dell rocks.

Re:$499?

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the funny things about PDAs, is that the older ones (and the cheap new models, like the m105) are the best ones. Battery life matters. As soon as I see that a device has a color or high-res screen or costs more than $200 or has a triple-digit processor clockspeed, I know that it's really a handheld PC, rather than a PDA.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with handheld PCs. That is, unless a PDA is what you really wanted, in which case buying a tiny PC that needs to be charged every night, is just plain dumb.

Two completely different categories of products, but they look so much alike. No wonder people get confused and choose poorly. I bet you're doing the Right Thing by sticking with your Handspring.

That said, I am tempted by these tiny PCs and though I've resisted buying one so far, I must admit that I just can't stop lustfully peeking at them. And a Handspring or really anything else that runs PalmOS (or wince), just doesn't arouse the same interest.

Re:$499?

[Anonymous Coward]

Whats real gay about CE is that programs pile up, clicking close doesn't close them, it mearly minimizes them. So then u start to get out of memory errors and all of a sudden you're like "WTF" and you see you have like 10 programs running. The other downfall is that CE programs are becoming BLOATware. A typical PalmOS program is 200K on the high end, 50K on the low end. Try finding a 50K CE program and you've got nothing. Even a microsoft Word .Doc is 20-30K on there. Programs are routinely 1-2MEGS.

Re:$499?

[Sj0]

I've been very impressed with my Casio BE-300. After the upgrade to one of the user-created OS mods, it's versatility for the price, along with the backlit colour screen and usable USB port, make it quite a deal, considering it is the cheapest colour PDA available on the market, to the best of my knowlege.

Re:$499?

[twalk]

Palm Zire 71, around $275 with MP3, SD, color, etc. Even a camera.

I've got a Dell X5, a Treo 90, and a Sony 615. The treo is used for work, the other 2 are just toys. They are just too big, too heavy, and don't have nearly enough battery life.

Re:$499?

[po8]

My biggest issue with expensive handhelds is that I am likely to drop a handheld, step on it, run over it, lose it, etc. I can't afford to do that with a device that costs more than about $100. So I carry a recon Visor, and backpack a laptop around when I need more. Uggh.

I'm seriously tempted by the older Zaurus, which is now $150-ish, but by the time all the accoutrements are added, it's still just out of range for me.

Re:$499?

[tcopeland]

>>>> For some reason Slashdot won't let me post to our previous discussion... it says that I've moderated the thread. How bizarre. Anyhow:

> advocates owning slaves

Really? How's that?

> It was man who decided that all men
> should be free

Did man deciding anything make it right? What if man decided that slavery was OK again?

> There would be recordings and scientific
> data on it this time

Do you believe Nero existed? Why?

> How does that change if God is the source?

Because a moral code promulgated by a person is just that - a moral code promulgated by a person. It has no authority.

> all things can be achieved through prayer

All things that are in God's will, yes.

> the nonexistance of demonstratable miracles

Yup, I too would be happy if a big sign were to appear occasionally. I don't know why God hasn't done that.

> Who created God?

throw new StackOverflowException(); :-)

Re:$499?

[Sj0]

>>>> For some reason Slashdot won't let me post to our previous discussion... it says that I've moderated the thread. How bizarre. Anyhow:

> advocates owning slaves

Really? How's that?

There are instances where there are lessons on how you're supposed to treat your slaves. The word of god, no less. I'd call that an endorsement of slaves if I ever saw one. :)


Did man deciding anything make it right? What if man decided that slavery was OK again?

I suppose in the eyes of the masses, it would be. How is this different from any of the morality from religious texts people conveniently forget about?

Do you believe Nero existed? Why?

I can't really say. I haven't studied that era or location thoroughly enough.

Because a moral code promulgated by a person is just that - a moral code promulgated by a person. It has no authority.

I hate to break this to you, but neither does any of the morality imposed by the church(your "word of god"). Most, if not all of it is made up on the spot by the church for political reasons. Do you think that God didn't want commoners reading bibles? Do you think that he wanted the bible to only be availible in Latin? Do you think he cares if you wear a rubber? Furthermore, what happens in this "Hell"? Officially, it's not fire and brimstone anymore, but "rest assured, it's very bad". It seems once again man dictated morality to himself, and any supposed deitys aren't holding any real power anyway.

Yup, I too would be happy if a big sign were to appear occasionally. I don't know why God hasn't done that.

It could be for a variety of reasons. Maybe there are no more faithful anymore, so God is going to damn us all, in which case, who cares which religion we choose? It could be that Christianity has been so badly corrupted by man that it's no longer the religion he wanted it to be. It could be that there is no God, and it's we're going to be taking orders from Zeus after we all die. Either way, the evidence, and logic, point to the idea that either there is no god, you're worshipping the wrong one, or he's so indifferent it doesn't really matter. Sorry.

throw new StackOverflowException(); :-)

LMAO! You've got that right! :)

Re:$499?

[tcopeland]

> I'd call that an endorsement of slaves

In Colossians, the Bible says "Slaves, obey your masters" and "Masters, provide your slaves what is right and fair". That's because Paul wasn't advocating the overthrow of the government - he was telling people how they should act in whatever situation they found themselves in. There may have been many slaves in the church of Colosse.

That passage doesn't praise slavery or say it's right, though - it just tells people how to act when they're in that situation. There are other verses that speak against mistreating others - such as the "Golden Rule" verse which you quoted earlier.

> How is this different from any of the
> morality from religious texts
> people conveniently forget about

If people ignore truth, that doesn't make it untrue. It just means they're ignoring the truth.

> your "word of god"

Ah, but it's not mine, and that's what makes it valuable - it wasn't made up by a human.

> Do you think that God didn't want
> commoners reading bibles?
> Do you think he wanted the bible to only be
> availible in Latin?

God wants everyone to read his word.

> Do you think he cares if you wear a rubber?

Hey, Biblical teachings on birth control! Ah, an excellent topic there... we could go on for days.

> what happens in this "Hell"?

It's a place removed from God. Just Man and Sin. !good.

> Officially, it's not fire and brimstone
> anymore

Why officially? Is that what the Catholic church teaches?

> Maybe there are no more faithful anymore

Nah, the Bible says there'll always be a remnant.

> Either way, the evidence, and logic,
> point to the idea that either there is
> no god, you're worshipping the wrong one,
> or he's so indifferent it doesn't really
> matter.

Actually, evidence and logic point towards a God who is there and who is not silent.

> You've got that right!

I puzzled for a while over which one to throw... some sort of Error subclass would probably have been more appropriate, but the recursive nature of "who created God?" lead me inexorably to StackOverflow. I bet Gosling never thought that'd come up in this context...

See ya,

tom

Re:$499?

[Sj0]

> I'd call that an endorsement of slaves

In Colossians, the Bible says "Slaves, obey your masters" and "Masters, provide your slaves what is right and fair". That's because Paul wasn't advocating the overthrow of the government - he was telling people how they should act in whatever situation they found themselves in. There may have been many slaves in the church of Colosse.

That passage doesn't praise slavery or say it's right, though - it just tells people how to act when they're in that situation. There are other verses that speak against mistreating others - such as the "Golden Rule" verse which you quoted earlier.

Even then, wouldn't you agree that the idea to abolish slavery completely and decide that slavery itself is wrong was the decision of man? Of people who saw slavery and thought it wasn't right for one man to buy and sell another like cattle?

> How is this different from any of the
> morality from religious texts
> people conveniently forget about

If people ignore truth, that doesn't make it untrue. It just means they're ignoring the truth.


You say that as if the truth is the same today as it once was. Tell me, should a man be killed for not keeping the sabbath holy? Should women never speak in church? Should we burn wiccas? Archaic wisdom isn't the best. Just as blood letting has been ignored as it's premise and usefulness is ludicrous, so are these lessons learned by all but the most fanatical fundamentalist followers. I feel that in another thousand years, these texts may simply be seen as barbarism, as humanity evolves towards an even more beautiful, equitable world.

> your "word of god"

Ah, but it's not mine, and that's what makes it valuable - it wasn't made up by a human.


I beg to differ. It was written by men. Divine scripture wouldn't be so riddled with silly errors of details. Using all the gospels, try to piece together a timeline of Jesus' revival without disregarding any information -- it's not possible. Evidence to me, that god was not involved in the writing. Omniscient beings generally tend to be able to keep events consistent.

Furthermore, why should your book be any more divine and true than the others? If I decided to start worshipping Zeus, God of thunder, or I decided to start blowing up infidels in the name of Allah by joining islam (gotta have those renewable virgins!), or I follow the prophets responsible for buddhism or Taoism, they're going to tell me that THEIR book is divinely inspired, and they're going to tell me that your silly little religion(their words) doesn't have a theological leg to stand on. That theirs is the One True Path(tm). So tell me, what, if anything, makes yours so convincing? Personally, I find the concept of Karma found in Buddhism far more convincing than this One True God idea, so the onus is really on you to provide proof other than some X-filesian "I want to believe".

> Do you think that God didn't want
> commoners reading bibles?
> Do you think he wanted the bible to only be
> availible in Latin?

God wants everyone to read his word.


Then why did this faithful say otherwise? It's a very slippery slope trying to seperate the religion from the church. The church has morphed the religion so much (see in paticular, meetings in the Roman Empire in 300-400AD, just before Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, during the reign of Constaine, for a pretty good idea of how much even scripture has changed as a result of the Church), that to disregard the church is to disregard the religion, short of translating original scripture yourself, which isn't really possible.

> Do you think he cares if you wear a rubber?

Hey, Biblical teachings on birth control! Ah, an excellent topic there... we could go on for days.

Doubt it. For most, it's just a matter of opinion, and some people like to back it up with biblical teach

Re:$499?

[tcopeland]

> decide that slavery itself is wrong
> was the decision of man?

Hm. Certainly, some people decided it was wrong. Were they right? Now we come back to a previous point - how do we decide what's right and wrong? Is is simply whatever people think is right and wrong at a given time? Surely not...

> Should a man be killed for not keeping the
> sabbath holy?
> Should women never speak in church?
> Should we burn wiccas?

Nope, although not keeping the Sabbath holy is a sin. Nope, although that passage does have consequences - i.e., it raises the question of whether women should be preachers. Nope, although the Bible says that attemping to communicate with the dead is a sin.

> Just as blood letting has been ignored
> as it's premise and usefulness is ludicrous

A thought on this... many religions have thought that sacrifice - whether animal or human - was necessary to propitiate God. It's a common theme. It seems that there's a two-part theme here - that sin exists, and that someone must be punished for it.

I'm not sure what I'm getting at there... that just kind of rose to the surface.

> as humanity evolves towards an even
> more beautiful, equitable world.

I don't know... the 20th century seems to provide evidence that man is not evolving towards anything more beautiful. If anything, we're just figuring out more efficient ways to kill each other at a distance.

> Divine scripture wouldn't be so riddled
> with silly errors of details.

Which errors are these?

> to disregard the church is to disregard
> the religion

Your point about the Catholic Church going astray is well taken... however, the Catholic Church - including the Pope - is composed of sinful humans.

I should read up on the Council of Nicea and all that; my knowledge of how the current Bible was settled on is pretty thin.

> The book either says it's OK, or it isn't

Well, the Bible doesn't talk much about either abortion or Norplant or the birth control pill. But it does say that killing is wrong, and it does say that children are a gift from the Lord, and it does talk about "knitting me together in my mother's womb". It's our resposibility to use our brains to puzzle things out from there.

> mankind has reached a position where
> without birth control

Nah... plenty of room still abounds. Take a drive across the U.S.; lots of open land. Let alone good ol' Russia.

> Africa is a good example of what happens
> when contraceptives aren't used regularly

Africa's problems are worse than simple overpopulation - if overpopulation was the problem, Hong Kong would be a charnel house.

> if god is omnibenevolent

God is good, but he's also just. And man sinned, and continues to sin. If God were to be fair, no one would go to heaven.

> The pope says now that fire isn't
> nessessarily fire and brimstone

Does he? Hm. The Bible doesn't seem to spell out temperature ranges, much less a Dante-ish leveling strategy - "you have entered a maze of twisty passages, all alike" - but it makes it clear that Hell will be unpleasant.

C.S. Lewis thinks that Hell will be a place apart from God - where man is alone with himself and his sin. Knowing what goes on in the inside of my own head.... yikes.

> We are afraid of our morality

Yes, we are. We feel like life has meaning, and that we have significance. And we're right. We do. Every person is created in the image of God.

> StackOverflow
I was thinking about this again and thought "oh, I should have responded with 'what is the sound of one hand clapping?' or some such". But I always think of that stuff about 3 days after the opportunity is lost :-)

> I hope this doesn't mean the conversation
> has ended

Not at all! Sorry to have given that impression. Yeah, I think everyone else has gone home. That's fine, though, just keeps us from getting modded -1 Offtopic :-)

> I'm finding this very enlightening

Ditto. It's forcing me to examine assumptions on which I've coasted for a long time.

128 MB ram...

[Ravagin]

Godsdamn. When bleeding-edge PDAs have as much memory as your laptop, I guess it's time to consider upgrading, huh?

Re:128 MB ram...

[Eccles]

Godsdamn. When bleeding-edge PDAs have as much memory as your laptop, I guess it's time to consider upgrading, huh?

For much of last year, my mid-range digital camera had more memory than my desktop.

Re:Mmmmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been waiting for a Transmeta PDA for ages!!!

You'll get a Trasnmeta PDA looooong before you ever get a piece of ass, believe me.

Only one snag...

[thepacketmaster]

After reading about the lack of software, I have one big issue. While I mainly just use the PIMS, and the Yopy office software would be a nice touch, I need to have games! After all, PDAs are just adult/professional versions of Gameboys, right?

no SD slot

[Anonymous Coward]

so you can't have memory, and an addon. Very short sighted. plus not much apps for strongarm linux,, spend your cash on cheaper better dell axim x5. 400Mhz xScale.

Re:HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a minor nitpick with the original. So I had to:

:%s/Cmdr\sTaco/CmdrTaco/g

HAND

This would have been really cool...

[Cpt_Kirks]

...about three years ago.

Now that Linux runs on the Axim and the new Sharp toys are out, big deal.

$500? No way.

Re:PDA's

[Anonymous Coward]

Let the "I love my [insert brand name] PDA" comments commence!

I love my pad of sticky notes and pencil!

Useability

[darth_MALL]

This is somewhat off topic... What do all the worlds geeks DO with their PDA's? Aside from email, notes, adresses? Seems to be an expensive use of my already premium pocket space. Is it just the "gadget factor" or are there folks who really rely on this type of device? BTW this one does sound cool, just hard to justify.

Re:Useability

[defishguy]

We touch them... hold them, caress them. We play tragically old video games... we listen to mp3s. We coddle them in our open hands. We surf and use them as replacement short-term memories because we can forget a lot of things like what we say. We surf and use them as replacement short-term memories because we can forget about a lot of things like what we say. We use them to create whole new reasons for illicit software download sites ($5.00 and I'll send you the url). We use them as gravity test units and to support the "small lcd screen" industry by purchasing many repair screens. Shoot! If I had a degree in "folklore mythology" I would even use it to help me search for a job :-)

Re:Useability

[mrrc00]

I routinely use my Zaurus to remotely administer my home computer, check email, surf the web, type papers. Hell, my zaurus is more useful to me than my laptop.

Oh, and running xeyes on it is very cool :)

Re:Useability

[tchapin]

My PDA is a Kyocera 6035. I find the phone / Palm integration to be pretty good, and quite useful. Although now that the current crop of things have higher-resolution, color screens, I'm beginning to hate the 'ole green & black.

I use my PDA to do my finances. Much easier to keep track of things when I can easily record the transaction at the time of the transaction, rather than relying on my memory.

I also use Vindigo for when I travel. It's great to have some maps w/ build-in navigation.

Avantgo is handy for keeping things around to read when I have a few minutes.

I keep notes for work, task lists, all the basic PDA functions.

And games of course, I'd love to be able to run a C64 emulator though.

PQA apps are really handy as well.

Todd

Re:Useability

[nochops]

I use mine around the house as a small wireless computer. My favorite use is reading my email and surfing the web while I'm taking a dump. Seriously, as soon as I wake up in the morning, i grab my Cassiopeia from the cradle, and head to the can. While I'm doing my business, I get caught up on my email, and check the weather, etc. A full blown laptop would be cumbersome for me.

Another favorite use of mine is VNC from the sofa while I'm watching a movie. If my pager goes off while I'm in the middle of a movie, I don't even have to get up from the sofa to reboot a server.

I actually don't take my Cassiopeia out of the house often, but that's because first of all, I would lose my wireless connection away from my house, and second of all, it's too damn expensive and fragile.

Give me a durable PDA that I can accidentally drop on the ground without breaking and some sort of fast wireless connection that doesn't depend on my home internet connection, and make it less than $400 and I'll buy one.

Re:Useability

[__aamkky7574]

I sync up with (free) newspapers and magazines using AvantGo and read them while travelling; that's probably 90% of my PDA usage. It's also handy to download articles and PDFs from the web to read later.

Apart from that, I use it to remind me of tasks and appointments (for my job, it _really_ helps) and also use 3rd-party apps such as Metro and Pocket Streets when travelling.

I was amusing by the review, which seems to state that "stability" is to be prized above, oh, actually applications and being able to do anything. My iPAQ has _never_ crashed. I want a PDA so I can do _cool_ and _necessary_ things with it, not so I can look at a blank screen and say to myself "Hmmm, 40 days uptime and still no crashes!".

P.

Re:Useability

[Lord Kano]

What do all the worlds geeks DO with their PDA's? Aside from email, notes, adresses? Seems to be an expensive use of my already premium pocket space. Is it just the "gadget factor" or are there folks who really rely on this type of device?

Where to start. First of all DOPE WARS!

Second, keeping names and telephone numbers. I actually use the Palm Desktop software on my computer more than I use my Visor. Because I like the layout.

Have you ever seen the look on a bartender's face when you change the channel or volume on the TV with your handheld and OmniRemote? It's priceless.

If only I had more time.

LK

Imagine...

[Anonymous Coward]

...a Beowulf cluster of these! Yeah, I went there. LOL :-P

The Future... (was Re:From the picture)

[TheScienceKid]

You can bet the next innovation will revolve around CELF, PSX and Linux..... and what happened to the usual BSD trolls.... maybe we've choked the mods who +1'd them with metamodding.

Re:Bwahahahahahaha

[Anonymous Coward]

Kudos, my friend. Few people are able to take the art of sarcasm so far. Geez. Am I being sarcastic? Huh? Am I?

Lack of software?!?!?!

[shaunj]

From the article, re: reasons linux on PDA's hasn't caught on.

"And probably the biggest drawback is the Lack of Software compared to Palm and Pocket PC"

What?!? What?!! How can they say this. My zaurus has so much software I don't know what to do with it. Since it's linux, stuff gets ports very quickly and there is a world of software at your fingertips. Just cause it's all free doesn't make it not there.

Re:Lack of software?!?!?!

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that while all Pocket PC can use the same software every Linux based PDA is like a new OS - you cannot use Zaurus software on Yopy and vice-versa.

Re:Lack of software?!?!?!

[shaunj]

The software is usually compatible based on the architecture (iPAQ and zaurus use the same binaries often). But the package managers are different. It's the same old linux story as before.

In other news.....

[TheScienceKid]

....slashdot readers face the reality that Yopy wouldn't sell in any quantity if the situation was reversed and it didn't sync with windows.

Film at 11, and now for the weather....

Re:For $499, it's hard not to consider the Zaurus.

[pergamon]

The 5600 only has 32MB of RAM for runtime memory, the rest is builtin flash RAM for storage. The 5500 had 64MB of RAM, with 32MB being battery-backed. With OpenZaurus or other third party images, you can actually use all 64MB of RAM in the 5500 for runtime, and just use an SD/MMC or CF card for long-term storage.

The 400mhz XScale used in the 5600 and the C700 isn't a whole lot faster than the 200mhz CPU used in the 5500, but the CPU contributes to the much better battery life of the 5600 vs the 5500.

But yes, I have a feeling the 5600 or even the 5500 would be a better choice for most due to the existing user/dev base, though some might like the form factor or the newness of the Yopy.

Personally, I'm using a 5500 while waiting for prices on the new Zaurus C760s to come down -- they're evidentally about 70000yen (US$600) in Japan right now, and about $800 from importers like Dynamism.

Ok then, does it ...

[Anonymous Coward]

play Ogg Vorbis?

Re:Ok then, does it ...

[TheScienceKid]

What about Sibelius files? or Cubase-VST files? or midi values (envelopes?) in an comma separated value file....

Re:For $499, it's hard not to consider the Zaurus.

[RevAaron]

Considering how the Yopy runs X11 as it's display layer, it's a bit of a fudge to say that the Zaurus has a larger developer community than the Yopy. There are more Z-specific developers than there are Yopy-specific, considering how something close to the majority of Zaurus apps are somewhat clumsily adapted from X11/Qt, no reason one can't simply count a clumsily adapted X11 app as a Yopy app. :P

That said, the Yopy will likely fail. It's expensive and it doesn't do that much that anything else does. If you need the occasional remote X session, you can do that already with Windows CE or PocketPC (via XFree86 for CE) or on the Zaurus under a QPE or FB X server.

The 400 MHz XScale (which is a PXA 250) in the 5600 isn't really faster than the 206 MHz in the Yopy or SL-5500. The 5600 probably gets a bit better battery life for it, though. There's been a lot of misinformation about the PXA-250, and the speed of it in comparison to the 206 MHz StrongARM isn't just some retarded move by MS, which a lot of folks seem to think here and elsewhere. Seems stupid Sharp would switch the 5600 to a PXA 255, but they probably have a lot of manufactured and unsold units with the 250 preventing such a switch.

IIRC, Dell did that with their Axims- switched from the PXA 250 to the 255 rather quietly. Granted, they sell a lot more Axims than Sharp does SL-5x00s.

as for me, I just got a SL-C760... :D

If you're that concerned, you could always ...

[burgburgburg]

teach it the words. Or isn't 128 megs of RAM enough to learn them?

From the article

[$exyNerdie]

Not to sound like trolling but interesting to note that the price is not 499 units is any of the currencies of countries where it is sold !!

The Yopy 3700 is developed in South Korea and is currently available in France, Austria and the UK for a MSRP of $499 US .

Does it ...

[Anonymous Coward]

play Ogg Vorbis files? Yeah, I went there.

who needs it ?

[Extrymas]

Real men write software to sync with pda by themselves.

Can someone give a layman's comparison

[Anonymous Coward]

between a "Beowulf cluster" and a "Mosix cluster"? Is there a difference? Assume I know very little about computing (you'd be right).

Re:Can someone give a layman's comparison

[TheScienceKid]

I believe a beowulf acts as many computers sharing tasks with seperate memory space, where as mosix shas shared memory space between the machines (see openmosix.org iirc)

Re:Just Imagine....

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot Beowulf cluster comment average time: 7min.

But the Zaurus isn't really a Linux platform

[Anonymous Coward]

I would love to have a true Linux PDA that allows me to run my current Linux software. Unfortunately, the Zaurus does not satisfy my needs, because the Zaurus isn't really a Linux platform.

The Zaurus is a Qtopia platform.

Qtopia is a GUI front-end that runs on top of Linux.

Software written for the Zaurus is written for Qtopia. It will not run on a non-Qtopia distribution of Linux.

Qtopia is proprietary. It is owned and maintained by Trolltech. It cannot be forked, at least, not if you hope to be able to run any non-GPLed software on your Zaurus.

To say that the Zaurus is a Linux platform, is like saying that the Macintosh is a BSD platform. In both cases, it is technically correct, yet wrong in practise. In both cases, your software requires an additional front-end (Qtopia or OS/X) in order to run. In both cases, you are locked in to one company's platform, because your software will not run on other versions of Linux or BSD.

Now I don't care if people want to buy the Qtopia-based Zaurus, anymore than I care if they want to buy the OS/X-based Macintosh.

But people should be aware of what they are getting.

Re:But the Zaurus isn't really a Linux platform

[evilempireinc]

While I agree that applications have to be specifically written for the zaurus, there are open source alternatives for the zaurus OS. You should check out OpenZaurus, which has their own linux distro for the zaurus. In addition there is already a free, open source alternative to running qtopia called OPIE [opie.handhelds.org] As I hear its pretty stable and is supposed to be compatable with applications developed for Qtopia.

Re:But the Zaurus isn't really a Linux platform

[Anonymous Coward]

Sheesh... and if the Zaurus used X rather than Qt/Embedded then you'd probably be complaining that it was inefficient and ridiculous for a PDA... Not to mention that you're going to end up using Qt or Gtk on top of it anyway!

Anyway, requiring Qt as a GUI toolkit doesn't seem to have harmed KDE.... If you really want to run X apps on your Zaurus then you could always write a Qt based X server (maybe one already exists?).

Re:But the Zaurus isn't really a Linux platform

[infiniti99]

To say that the Zaurus is a Linux platform, is like saying that the Macintosh is a BSD platform. In both cases, it is technically correct, yet wrong in practise. In both cases, your software requires an additional front-end (Qtopia or OS/X) in order to run. In both cases, you are locked in to one company's platform, because your software will not run on other versions of Linux or BSD.

What exactly is a "Linux platform" then? Linux by itself is just a kernel, RMS will tell you this all the time. Do you prefer the GNU "platform"? Or maybe KDE? These are all different platforms atop Linux. How is Qtopia "less" of a platform? It certainly can't be licensing, as GNU, KDE, and Qtopia are all Free Software. Maybe it is about popularity? True, Qtopia is a newcomer to the scene, but maybe this is a sign of good things to come.

Perfect design...maybe, but the software?

[Call Me Black Cloud]

Also from that same review:

Okay, now let's talk about the areas for improvement. Once I mastered the built in software, I was pretty much stuck. There are a few games included but that's about it. Until Yopy gets some Linux developers to help them out, there is very little software available. I also wasn't able to use my wireless card because of the lack of drivers. As I mentioned earlier, the lack of software isn't strictly a Yopy issue. Linux Operating systems for PDAs will only be as strong as the development community behind it. That brings up the next issue: at this point the Yopy is only designed to sync with the Windows Operating System.

So to sum up:

Very little software available

Needs drivers

Only syncs with Windows

So what is the company hoping for?

1. Linux geeks buy Yopy because it runs Linux
2. Said geeks churn out software and drivers for it, because that's how it works in the open source world
3. Sales increase because the Yopy is now attractive to the masses
4. Profit!!!

Why would the average PDA user purchase this instead of a Palm or Windows PDA? What can the Yopy do that existing systems can't? I am interested to see how this turns out...

Re:Perfect design...maybe, but the software?

[kju]

Same model worked for Palm...

Think of it this way...

[doc_traig]

It's .97 caliber.

Check this out

[$exyNerdie]

Check this out

Linux?

[Morgahastu]

"Overall, I'm quite impressed with this PDA. If this was a Palm or Pocket PC PDA, I'd say this is close to my perfect PDA."

So everything is good about it except for the OS.

He also says its "almost as stable" as the Palm OS.

If this is such a great piece of hardware then why not go all out and put Palm OS on there?

There target market obviosly is not linux users (lack of linux desktop support). what gives?

Hinges and battery life

[toxcspdrmn]

I have been using my Psion 3a for over eight years now. The hinges have broken twice in that time, necessitating trips to Pinnock Organiser Services for a new case. However, I keep persevering with it because of its phenomenal battery life. Eight-year old technology, does everything I need in a PIM and it runs for three months on a couple of AA cells.

I did try an Agenda VR3 (no url as Agenda Computing seem to have gone bust and the Softfield site seems only to link to 10.1.1.1!) but couldn't be bothered to change the batteries every few hours. I would be prepared to sacrifice some battery life for features such as colour screens, wireless connectivity etc. but surely it's possible to get a week or so out of a set of batteries? How do things like the Zaurus perfom in normal use?

Incidentally, while checking the url above I noticed that POS (yeh I know - unfortunate acronym) also sell a linux PDA, the Filewalker. Anyone have any experience of this?

can you say chicklets?

[minus_273]

what's with the keyboards these days. I dont know how that would be more comfortable than my WinCE's natural handwriting recognition

Re:can you say chicklets?

[Zapdos]

Try using that without looking and one hand.

Re:can you say chicklets?

[Gothmolly]

The Zaurus does recognition, too. Even under OpenZaurus.

Re:Beowulf is kickass

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone but that one dude abandoned him.

That would be his homey Wiglaf, who cut that biotch of a dragon, and built a tower for his bro Beowulf.

Re:PDA's

[JUSTONEMORELATTE]

Let the "I love my [insert brand name] PDA" comments commence!

I love my pad of sticky notes and pencil!

I love my PaperPalm and you can buy them used to save some money.

--

*yawn* Show me the parts.

[Anonymous Coward]

Show me:

1) Cell phone service for this (like the Handspring visor visorphone)
2) keyboard like a targus stowaway
(Now it can replace the Palm)
3) 802.11 networking (so it can act as VOIP)

Then I'll start caring.

They need an edge... Bill and Ted: Wild Stallmans?

[TheScienceKid]

maybe they should release a special edition of Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey..... with guest stars RMS and ESR.... the Wild Stallmans.... (for those who dont know what Bill & Ted is, their characters had a band named Wild Stallyns and a telephone box that could travel through time.)...


Ted.... you totally melvin'd the grim reaper!

Design studio Ma-sziv

[michiel.h]

Nice BricK(tm) design.

Even better comparison...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a short and sassy comparison you offered, but it lacked one element that I and many others forget whenever a company announces a new PDA of some sort:

POWER CONSUMPTION-PDA UPTIME.

Exactly, what type and quantity of batteries do you think a Yopy and a Zaurus may demand?

Now that I have the attention of the moderators, let me offer a comparison with a purebread Linux PDA; Agenda's VR3, which is later continued by another company (Agenda Computing is bankrupt) named Softfield Technologies. As for a short spec of the Agenda VR3, which I owned:
66MHz MIPS CPU
160x240 16 grayscale LCD screen (2" x 3" view)
Piezo speaker (8bit 11KHz audio possible)
RS232 (needs adaptor), IrDA
Linux 2.4 kernel and friendly X11R4 X Server (beat that)
Weighs 4 oz, without batteries
Requires two AAA batteries
Uptime, without sound, in my experience 7 continuous hours
Uptime, with continuous use of sound, in my experience 3.5 continuous hours

The difference between the Agenda VR3 and Softfield VR3 is the Agenda has installed 16MB of FLASH ROM and 8MB of RAM while the Softfield VR3 has installed 16MB of FLASH ROM and 16MB RAM. Other than those differences, they are the same product. The VR3 is a verry low power product. I think they should've allowed install of four AAA, or step it up to two or four AA batteries, but that'll be back in the future. It uses a X Server, so puting programs on it is a peice of cake; everyone knows X applications are plentiful. For example, I was running the DILLO webbrowser on it, Sylpheed eMail client, rsync, FTP filesystem kernel module, telnet, BASH, ping, tar, bzip2, xpdf, nedit, FreeCraft (extremly modified, a tad bit slow), and Agenda Nethack. With all that installed, I have only about 0.5 MegaBytes to save data with.

As much as people say the VR3 is out of its playing field in comparison with the YOPY, ZAURUS, Toshiba, and IPAQ, everyone should reconsider its low power and uptime performance as well as power consumption. It is a great design and is a proven platform for companies to use. In reality, uptime is king. All the PDAs people drool over constantly, with all the vibrant high-power backlit color screens have less than 2 hours uptime at 100% CPU usage. When I reveal the uptime of my use of an Agenda VR3, it is at 100% CPU usage and none of that standby mode/almost asleep nonsense that all the other PDAs rely upon to hide the true uptime of their over-powered crap.

And one last note...The Agenda VR3 is available in used/mint condition on eBay and Yahoo Auctions for average of USD 70.00! When they were sold retail, they were twice that cost or no less than USD 200.00! YOPY, ZAURUS, TOSHIBA, and IPAQ are three times more expense than a VR3 and have less uptime!

Agenda VR3 / Softfield VR3

[Anonymous Coward]

A VR3 PDA is a true PDA.

It is about 0.4" thick, and its sleek body allows it to slip into your pocket with mere gravity. I extremly don't recommend even a VR3 to be carried in your pocket; as ALL PDAs aren't durable enough to be put in your pocket, they will bend or the LCD screen will crack. That will be the day...the USD 10,000 DURABLE PDA. HA!

What I want from my next PDA

[bongoras]

I currently have a Clie that serves my personal information organization needs, and will do so for a long, long time. Still I lust after a new PDA, but I won't buy one until someone makes one that satisfies all these requirements:

• it must really run Linux -- not some proprietary linux version that only works with software written specifically for it.
• it must be open, so that I can download virtually any app and do ./configure ; make ; make install and have it working
• data must be stored as XML, so that I can use perl / python / whatever to manipulate the data inside the PDA and not be forced into using some other person's idea of what an interface ought to look like.
• it must be able to act as a full member of a network: supporting samba, nfs, ssh, http -- you name it -- to access files and serve them.
• it's got to have a good X server
• the whole thing is worthless without 802.11b/g support, of course
• it's got to be small enough to serve as a wallet or fit in a pocket. The current Clie footprint is about as large as I can tolerate
• battery life must be decent

Anyone know of something like this?

Re:What I want from my next PDA

[jafuser]

Anyone know of something like this?

Content-Type: audio/x-wav
Filename: insect_sounds/crickets.wav

Too big

[Sandor at the Zoo]

From the article:

TheYopy is based on an eye-pleasingclamshell design.With the screen down the Yopy is about thesame depthas a paperback book, making it about twice as thick as the normal PDA.

This is just too large. PDAs have been shrinking in size over the past five years or so, and this thing's just too big.

Along with the lack of software, I see it as another linux hobbyist device.

Except that its a real _OS_

[Gothmolly]

Not just an app launcher. The Zaurus multitasks, can export or mount NFS or SMB shares, play MP3s, MPEGs, does handwriting recognition, everything that you can compile code for. Apache? MySQL? OpenSSH? yes. I've done it. The Z (stock or running OZ) also uses RAM as filesystem buffer cache, so your 'free' memory may vary. If you need memory, you can make swapspace. (Parodoxically, you can make swapspace in your RAMdrive, to increase the amount of RAM you have!). This is why you can configure OpenZaurus with a variety of storage/RAM splits, esp. if you slap in an SD card as your 'hard drive'. How many PDA's give you a bash prompt?

Re:Except that its a real _OS_

[Anonymous Coward]

> How many PDA's give you a bash prompt?

Mine doesn't, and I'm actually glad. For me a PDA should be simple, not a hand held computer. If you want a handheld computer, that's something else. I really haven't had ANY need to run Apache or MySQL on my Palm. And it has NEVER crashed as of today.

Re:Except that its a real _OS_

[RevAaron]

I've unfortunately went over this a dozen times with plenty of other people.

I know it may be hard to come to terms with this, but WinCE is a real OS too. Not just an app launcher.

You can multitask. You can mount NFS and SMB shares. Play MP3s, MPEGs, DivXs, whatever. Unlike on the Zaurus, you can get *real* handwriting recognition- not just *character recognition,* to which you are confined with any Linux PDA (at least for now). You can code in a million languages on the device it self under CE- and unlike on Linux PDAs, it's a lot easier to find a well-adapted port rather than something barely shoehorned in. Apache, FTPd, SSH, telnet, X11 (remote and local), VNC, rdesktop- I've all done it from CE.

It's a failing of the current PDA Linuxes to make you create a swap file to get more RAM rather than an advantage. In WinCE, you just simply adjust the amount allocated to RAM vs Storage via a slider; on current PDA Linux, you have to install a hacked kernel (with hardcoded values) or create a swap space in your storage area.

WinCE is very, *very* far from perfect. But so is Linux, on the PDA and otherwise. Anyone who thinks that WinCE or Linux are perfect is delusional.

I've run bash on CE. Big deal. And, unlike with PDA Linux, I don't have to put up with substandard software. It may come as a shock, but a lot of folks want their PDAs to work well as PDAs and not just show-off toys at LUG meetings. :)

My current main PDA is a Zaurus SL-C760. I'm not some whacky MS zealot. It's a shame so many Zaurus users are just Linux cheerleaders. The Zaurus could be a great platform, but no amount of talking about will make the PDA software available for the Z any better.

Re:For $499, it's hard not to consider the Zaurus.

[fireboy1919]

I certainly don't want to see Yopy fail.

I do. I'm sick of this "we're going to be coming out with it. Just wait and see" thing that gmate does.

The first Yopy had it's release date pushed back two years. I'm not sure that this is not it. How are they even making money?

I would like to have their resources and ideas put into another company that can actually deliver products.

oohh.... a new toy with limitless powers....

[zippity8]

But can you port PocketPC 2003 to it? =P

You don't want a PDA...

[Anonymous Coward]

* it must really run Linux -- not some proprietary linux version that only works with software written specifically for it.

You want x86 architecture.

* it must be open, so that I can download virtually any app and do ./configure ; make ; make install and have it working

Again, you want x86 architecture. It's pretty much the only architecture that will (mostly) gaurantee a successful compile. Get programmers to start thinking about other architectures, and your results will improve on other than x86.

* data must be stored as XML, so that I can use perl / python / whatever to manipulate the data inside the PDA and not be forced into using some other person's idea of what an interface ought to look like.

PIM data is already stored in XML format on the Zaurus.

* it must be able to act as a full member of a network: supporting samba, nfs, ssh, http -- you name it -- to access files and serve them.

Are you talking client? If so, then all this can already be done on the Zaurus. If you're talking server, it ALSO can be done on the Zaurus, but ask yourself WHY you'd want to do that?

* it's got to have a good X server

How good is good? Do you need to display SGI DGL on your PIM? Pull games remotely to you PIM? There already is a minimal X server avail. for the Zaurus. Personally, anything I need to do remotely can be done with SSH (Unix) or WinZConnect for Win servers.

* the whole thing is worthless without 802.11b/g support, of course

Quite doable on the Zaurus.

* it's got to be small enough to serve as a wallet or fit in a pocket. The current Clie footprint is about as large as I can tolerate

Zaurus is a bit on the big side, but doable (it fits into my old PalmIIIc's case).

* battery life must be decent

No argument here. Zaurus's battery life sucks rocks (well, the 5500, which is what I have).

All in all, what you're looking for is a sub-notebook. Considering everything you want, you'll need something with a rather large disk (not to mention memory). You can get microdrives now, but once you get above the 1 gig mark, you're paying what you would pay for a workgroup server.

Re:You don't want a PDA...

[Anonymous Coward]

No argument here. Zaurus's battery life sucks rocks

this good or this bad?

"rocks" means good, but "sucks" mean bad!

you people have such confusing langrage! :(

Re:You don't want a PDA...

[Anonymous Coward]

means it sucks hard... bad. Very bad.

Re:You don't want a PDA...

[Anonymous Coward]

"* it must really run Linux -- not some proprietary linux version that only works with software written specifically for it.

"You want x86 architecture.

"* it must be open, so that I can download virtually any app and do ./configure ; make ; make install and have it working

"Again, you want x86 architecture. It's pretty much the only architecture that will (mostly) gaurantee a successful compile. Get programmers to start thinking about other architectures, and your results will improve on other than x86."

I'm not going to address your other points, but this attitude bugs me. Mainly because it's blatently incorrect.

There is absolutely no requirement in any way, shape or form what-so-ever that you need x86 to "really run Linux". All the original poster is saying there is that he doesn't want to use some proprietary scheme like Qtopia. This has nothing at all to do with x86. I don't know much about Qtopia but I'm willing to bet you could run it on an x86 machine if you wanted to. And I *know* there is no reason to use that sort of thing on non-x86 architectures. Or are you going to tell me that my iBook isn't "really" running Linux?

As far as your second point is concerned...well, it might be true for a small number of apps that have custom assembler routines in them or do something that is very specific to your hardware platform (for instance power management or that sort of thing), but for the vast majority of Linux apps ./configure ; make ; make install will work just fine regardless of your architecture.

Re:You don't want a PDA...

[Anonymous Coward]

I stand by what I said... he wants an x86 architecture (although we can easily change that to a PPC as you point out - or MIPS or SPARC, etc). But don't confuse any of them with anything that could run on a PDA. All of these architectures have very complex subsystems. PDAs are quite simple in comparison. My point was and still is that he doesn't want a PDA. He wants something that will behave like (and because of all the requirements, probably look like) a sub/notebook.

.WAV?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

DOT WAVE?
Come on! At lease be a litle bit more aware and use ogg :-)

"Yopy?"

[theonetruekeebler]

I have no comment; I just like saying "Yopy."

400Mhz vs 206Mhz

[blind_abraxas]

Does anyone recall the facts about the XScale processor at 400Mhz vs the 200Mhz older model?

It's not that the clock speed is giving you double the performance. Anyone saying that 200Mhz is too slow for a PDA just isn't getting it.

The 400Mhz processor for PDAs from Intel gives you pretty much the same performance as the 200Mhz previous model (might even be slightly less performance, I don't remember that clearly), the difference being the *power usage* is much better on the 400Mhz chip, giving you better battery life in your PDA.

16-17 hours of normal usage life out of the Yopi is pretty good, and it might be that the Yopi is superior to the Zaurus on that score, and might widen the distance given the XScale processor, but that's just speculation on my part.

Re:400Mhz vs 206Mhz

[SomeOtherGuy]

16-17 hours of normal usage life out of the Yopi is pretty good,

If it is anything like any of the other high end PDA's on the market than the "16-17 hours of normal use" is most likely based on about 8 or 9 of these "normal hours" being used with the screen off....

Now if someone is saying that at the very least I could have a marathon solitaire session for 18 hours (backlight set to low) without the battery going dead....then I will be impressed. (I am jaded because I have dried 7 or 8 different color PDA's....and have yet to see any battery (extended) or otherwise even last 5 or 6 hours of real usage. (Checking an address at 8 AM, turning the device off and then checking a phone number at 2 PM 6 Hours of "normal usage".)

The CPU is obsolete!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Be careful with this PDA - the CPU is in it's EOL (End Of Life).
Intel Announced that the "206 MHz Intel Strong ARM 32 bits RISC Processor" is terminated. Actually it's DIGITAL SA1110.
This is not a new design. A new design should rely on Intel Xscale CPU 200 or 400Mhz.

these things are high-end UNIX workstations

[73939133]

Just about every PDA around today has the specs of a high-end UNIX workstation of a few years ago. Your average PDA today has a 200MHz RISC chip, 64Mbytes of RAM, hundreds of megabytes of Compact Flash storage, etc. Many UNIX workstation had 1/10th the compute power, memory, and disk storage.

Furthermore, Linux and X11 aren't "high-footprint" at all by modern standards. Sure, on your desktop machine, they use lots of memory; that's because they can: people configure every feature into them and then they go on using lots of cache. On a PDA, you can squeeze a Linux kernel (I don't know about 2.4, but certainly older kernels) into a few hundred kbytes, and the X11 server and toolkit into less than a Mbyte. That's less than Windows CE or Qt/Embedded. It probably is even less than PalmOS 5. In fact, if you really want a small footprint OS, ucLinux is another option; it can even run on old Palm hardware (no MMU).

I have a Zaurus, and the Yopy sounds a lot better

[73939133]

I have a Zaurus SL-5500. It's nice for a few special applications: Wireless/Ethernet sniffing, computer remote control, a small music-over-IP receiver. And the keyboard on the thing is great.

But as a PDA, I think the Zaurus line is not all that useful. I think the user interface on the Zaurus frankly sucks. It looks like they copied all the misfeatures of Windows CE: task bars, menu bars, title bars, 3D shaded widgets, wide scroll bars, etc; with a 320x240 screen, you can't afford to waste a lot of pixels on useless eye candy. The interaction is also not very well thought out: dialog buttons are placed in title bars (but only sometimes) and the difference between switching between applications and closing them is unobvious. Much of the user interface is not "direct manipulation"; for example, where in the Palm Calendar application, you just click on a line your your appointment book and write in an appointment, on the Zaurus, you have to pop up the "New Appointment" dialog. And Qt eats up lots of memory and CPU.

Furthermore, those problems are hard to fix: the Zaurus is built on Qt/Embedded, which means that you are stuck with the toolkit and that almost nobody is developing non-Qt applications for it. You may think that there is "plenty of software" for it, but a large fraction of that software is console-based, and the amount of software that is available for it pales in comparison to the amount of software that would be available for it if it ran the same window system as the Linux desktop. Just in terms of development alone, with X11 on a handheld, you can choose among many convenient scripting languages with UI capabilities, on the Zaurus, you get--PyQt and maybe a few even more oddball things. You can install the handhelds.org distribution on it (with X11), but that's a major operation and few people do it.

I have yet to see a really good Linux PDA--a PDA that does the core PDA functions as well as Palm. I think Linux handhelds really have a different market for now: ports of desktop applications, prototyping, diskless controllers, etc. And in that market, the Zaurus fails pretty miserably because it is so non-standard. The Yopy may or may not make a better PDA than the Zaurus (it probably won't be any worse), but it sounds like it will make a much better Linux handheld because it actually runs more standard Linux software.

Still waiting....

[harborpirate]

I'm still waiting for a PDA with a hard drive. To me, storing contact information isn't enough. And 128MB doesn't store enough to do much of anything else. I could get a few songs on there, an ebook or two, and maybe a really tiny little video, and contact information.

Really, I don't see PDAs as a killer app until they can store large amounts of data without having to carry around a gazillion memory sticks. Then the usefulness becomes clear. Store and display every ebook I want to read. Store and play my music collection. Store and play a significant amount of video. Store whatever other data I want so that I can get at it wherever I happen to be. Oh, and store contact information.

Yeah, I know, much larger (1GB+) memory sticks are on the horizon. But I see a lot of problems with those, such as very high initial cost and tremendous incompatibility issues. Portable hard drives are here now, they work reliably, and they are relatively cheap. Just add one to a PDA. Change to a bigger rechargeable battery if necessary.

That, to me, would be worth shelling out some cash for. These PDAs with the bitty memory sticks? Toys.

Re:Still waiting....

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh? 1GB CF cards are here now, and $/MB cost is about the same as smaller sizes. Unless you want a giant sized PDA that takes a 2.5" drive, the only tiny hard drive that I'm aware of is IBM's microdrive which is CF compatible anyway...

Re:Still waiting....

[SomeOtherGuy]

Ah the extra battery life to keep an HD going is possible....If it happens to be a device that does not have a bunch of other "high drain" features. The screen and backlight alone are enough to tax even the highest NON hard drive PDA to a minimal few hours of use even on a bad boy extended battery....Throw a wireless NIC into the mix and your time in between charges has just dropped into a range that can be calculated without using the hour column.....Now if we were to throw a hard drive on top of that then you are in "Sega Nomad" territory.

Linux handhelds are not primarily PDAs

[73939133]

... the majority of people (ie. non Slashdot crowd) who will buy a PDA don't give a flying toss about what the underlying operating system is.

Most people drive SUV's, eat at MacDonalds, and don't exercise. Yet, we still have manufacturers of electric cars and sports cars, fine restaurants, and health clubs. The fact is that for a business, it doesn't matter what "the majority of people" want. What matters is that a business finds a niche market that works for it.

Linux handhelds can be enormously useful in vertical applications: science, engineering, medicine, etc. For that, the quality of their PDA functions doesn't matter. What does matter is making it really easy to develop software for them because almost all the software will be custom-written. Linux-based PDAs help with that. And PDAs that run both Linux and X11 are even better at that.

Zaurus 5500 is $199 or $229

[Anonymous Coward]

HSN (spam isn't to bad actually) sells them for $199 though availabilityi is sporadic. Sharp sells them direct for $229. The easiest way to find the $229 price link is via the developer link here (cutnpaste):

http://www.zaurus.com/dev/program/index.html

Annoying Banner Ad

[Anonymous Coward]

I simply could not read the article because of the flashing, annoying banner ad on the right side. Hasn't everyone realized that flashing and garishly colored banner ads don't work?!

Can you say Tricorder?

[Trogre]

Am I the only one who looks at this and thinks: "Captain, I am picking up dangerous levels of methane and carbon monoxide, but no signs of intelligent life."

Spec-wise, I'd still go for a Zaurus SL-5600 though.

You forgot

[rjforster]

Desktop linux syncing that works. Easily.

I actually use the Qtopia Desktop sync program with my Z-5500 on my RedHat 7.3 box. Took some serious mojo to get this together, I pulled info from about 4 different sites each of which was incomplete and improvised certain things based on error messages to get it working. Screws up if I change the kernel, but I know how to fix that.

Oh and USB host rather than gadget status if needed so you can plug keyboards, Zip drives whatever into it. (yes I know about interpocket, make it built in!)

Re:Bwahahahahahaha

[Anonymous Coward]

Your use of the word juxtaposition is entirely incorrect. Other than that the sarcastic remark was kind of gay.

All that is well and good.

[jotaeleemeese]

But there are people that have principles, morals, and are also cautious (I don't like to deal with convicted criminals, thank you very much).

It is important.

[jotaeleemeese]

If you can't appreciate why it is important that is your shortcomming due to lack of information.

If you want to be dictated when and how you can get your software, you know where to go.

If you want to be master of your own cmputational resources, the penguin is welcoming and forgiving.

Stability?

[Flying-Cow-Man]

"The stability of the Linupy Operating System rivals the Palm Operating System."

Come on, anyone who has used a Palm device (I live off one) for more than basic date/contacts knows that stability isn't their strong point.