ATM For Anonymous Online Payments

prichardson writes "The New York Times has an article about a way to anonymously transfer cash online (NYT registration required)." The inventor, Carl Amos, believes the target market for his newly-patented 'Aunty IM' ATM machine "..might be teenagers.. [who] do not usually have their own credit cards, they usually have cash and are more than willing to spend it to download music or games", as well as "those who were worried about identity theft on the Internet, or who simply wanted the privacy it provided."

Comments

google linkage

[Neophytus]

heh. No reg required ;)

Yay

[B3ryllium]

Now we can secretly fund the legal defense of mp3ers and linux users ...

Power to the people! Vivé la transaction!

Re:Yay

[happystink]

FUD! Noone is suing linux users for being linux users!

why no google link in article ?

[rokzy]

scared off by the NYT lawyers ?

Perfect.

[dildatron]

This would be perfect for when you want to buy something without being tracked... but there is still a trail. You could use one of these machines, but if the feds got involved, they could probaqbly find you (from the camera, etc). It would leave some sort of a trail. Still, not bad for buying that fake vagina you always wanted.

Re:Perfect.

[todu]

Yes. What's there to stop "them" from scanning and storing the serial numbers from each bill you take out from the ATM? If "they" later want to know who where likely to have paid for x, they can compare the bills serial number from both machines.

Re:Perfect.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fake?!? With an anonymous system, you might as well buy the real thing.. high heels, perfume and all. It's too bad most prostitutes are crack whores now. Damn it.

Re:Perfect.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fake?!? But the guy at the store said that vagina was REAL!

Re:Perfect.

[xThinkx]

...What's there to stop "them" from scanning and storing the serial numbers from each bill you take out from the ATM? If "they" later want to know who where likely to have paid for x, they can compare the bills serial number from both machines

Serial numbers on bills, and bills in general are extremely hard to track due to the nature of cash. Since the serial numbers are only scanned at banks, it is only possible to tell in general where the bill has been. For example, you could tell that somehow a 20 made it from Philly to LA, but you couldn't tell how many "hops" it made, or whether it rode in the back pocket of a trucker the entire time.

Because of this, it is damn near impossible to prove that person A spent bill X for object Y. Even if person A took the bill out of an ATM, there's nothing to prove that he didn't pay person B for a good or service with it and then Person B spent it.

Re:Perfect.

[Anonymous Coward]

Or selling the one you are tired of.

How can I pay you?

[Arslan ibn Da'ud]

So how would I go about paying someone online? Today I could use
a credit card or Paypal at someone's web site...how could this be
done from an ATM? (No, I'm not gonna try to punch in the recipient's
URL!)

That's a rather critical detail not mentioned in the article.

Re:How can I pay you?

[dildatron]

It could issue a "temporary credit card" - maybe it could spit out a tempporary card with the number on it, etc, that had the balance of the cash you put in. Basically an anonymous, pre-paid credit card

. You could then use that number like any other card (visa/mastercard/etc). Jsut a thought. The article didn't really specify.

Re:How can I pay you?

[Kotukunui]

By the looks of the photo the machine has a built in browser (full screen and keyboard). I think it just does the cash-to-bytes thing when you get somewhere that requires a payment.

Re:How can I pay you?

[L. VeGas]

Presumably, it will provide something like the disposable calling cards.

Re:How can I pay you?

[puck71]

I just had an idea like this. I thought it would be handy to be able to have a card that went through the credit card systems (i.e, could be used wherever you use a credit card), but wasn't a credit card and wasn't tied to a bank account. It would just be cash. You pay $100 cash and get this "cash credit card" that is worth $100. Then you can pay online with a "credit card" without all the downsides of a "real" credit card. I don't know how this could be implemented, but it would be cool.

Re:How can I pay you?

[Jac_no_k]

Doesn't American Express have something like this? It's called Private Payments. It gives you a unique number that's lets you obscure your identity.

Now there's probably a market for teenagers and such. But I'm thinking pre-paid cards will take care of that...

Re:How can I pay you?

[dasmegabyte]

Yeah, but MasterCard is already doing this -- selling debit mastercards that work like gift certificates. He wouldn't get the patent if that was it. No, I bet it depenses some sort of cryptographic string which is impossible to generate meaningfully, but which will unlock the cash purchase.

MMM

Re:How can I pay you?

[blibbleblobble]

"So how would I go about paying someone online? Today I could use a credit card or Paypal at someone's web site.."

You do it by publishing your P.O.Box on a website, freenet, invisiblog, or whatever. People can then pay you anonymously by posting cash.

This gives plenty of options, such as "use this to enable username x" or "to support blog y" or "for general use on project z". It allows you to pay for services such as email accounts, web proxies, etc. without having to trust some online e-tailer who almost certainly doesn't give a yahoo about your privacy, and will give out your IP logs and credit-card details to anyone who asks (police, people pretending to be police, marketers, crackers, friends of the sysadmin...)

It's not secure, you can't prove receipt, but then that's all a part of anyonymous payments anyway. Posting cash is certainly better worth considering than some hyped web scheme, for when you need to contribute to a distributed project. You can even get receipts, in the form of "value of $x received [date] with the number [long random number] on the packet"

Plus it works with foreign currency, and costs less than bankers drafts.

Re:How can I pay you?

[maxume]

The name is a bit silly, but check out Visa Buxx. Visa has several other prepaid options. Check out their website to see.

Re:How can I pay you?

[mpthompson]

I could be mistaken, but to pay by PayPal I believe that you just need the email of the person or business entity you want to send money to -- assuming they have a PayPal account.

It seems this device simply needs to collect the cash and credit the desired PayPal account with the cash collected. Therefore, with an email address and a transaction id as a comment, this device can convert PayPal into a cash transaction. Not too much punching in of information considering the convenience.

Re:How can I pay you?

[Anonymous Coward]

He wouldn't get the patent if that was it.

Since when did prior art stop a patent from being issued? Sure, the submitter is required to do a search, but that patent office doesn't. You will lose in court if there is prior art.

Re:How can I pay you?

[ptbarnett]

It gives you a unique number that's lets you obscure your identity.

No, Private Payments simply gives you a temporary American Express card number that expires at the end of the month in which it was issued.

The charge is still posted under your name and all the usual billing information is required. The amount is debited from your existing account.

The idea is that you give an on-line merchant a "throw-away" credit card number, without potentially compromising your primary credit card number. It cannot be used after the expiration date.

Of course, the temporary number is valid until then. So, it doesn't eliminate fraud -- it just puts a time limit on it.

Re:How can I pay you?

[jaydeekay]

Not really since they are one-time use numbers. So as long as the merchant uses it for the item/service you intended to buy, you're all set.

Also, it is nice because you can give them the number (as a deposit for example) and then revoke it - though this may be fraud, so use at your own risk :)

Re:How can I pay you?

[exhilaration]

No, you can use it as many times as you want before it expires. But doing so reduces your ability to track a fraud back to a particular merchant.

Re:How can I pay you?

[E_elven]

Dear lord, reading these replies. 'It dispenses a disposable credit card for you.' Morons.

He's trying to sell it to banks. Ergo, the routing can take many shapes -an easy solution will be a virtual credit card number granted by that bank. Other solutions may well work on existing systems, but something using Visa and MasterCard networks is the most likely option (since they're not slow as hell like wire transfers.)

As to why this is necessary? Because not everyone has a credit card. Because not everyone has even a bank account. Because everyone doesn't have internet access and don't want to buy stuff online using the library computers. And because PayPal is the only other option.

'It can be used in money laundering', 'you can fund terrorists with it!'

At least it doesn't take all your money, rape your family, pillage your domestic animals and burn your house while it's doing it.

Re:How can I pay you?

[MegaHamsterX]

Amex also had an Internet Card sold at 7-11, it was actually pretty cool.

In an emergency type situation I had to renew a few domains which belonged to the company I worked for, I charged a card up, renewed them all and gave the card and recipts to accounting for reimbursement.

I also paid for my EverCrack addiction with one, recurring charges are a bitch to remove from your credit card short of getting a card reissued.

I noticed these things seemed to disappear after 9/11.

Re:How can I pay you?

[Jucius Maximus]

" I just had an idea like this. I thought it would be handy to be able to have a card that went through the credit card systems (i.e, could be used wherever you use a credit card), but wasn't a credit card and wasn't tied to a bank account. It would just be cash. You pay $100 cash and get this "cash credit card" that is worth $100."

A company called Mondex tried to implement something like this. My home town was actually a pilot test area and I was using it for about a year back around 1997 or so. The main cards were attached to a bank account and you can withdraw from ATMs from your bank account. But you could also get auxiluary cards that can only be filled up from other cards (via these little interface devices, properly equipped phones, and 'in the future' over the net) and are not attached to a bank account. There is still a phone with the modex slot on the main computer desk at my home.

The people did not like it because while you were out playing with a little plastic card with a chip, the banks were taking the 'real' money and investing it. Sure, it was perfectly legal to use this money 'twice.' But they desperately tried to hide this fact and convince you that it was the same as cash. It was really the banks' dishonesty that killed it, not the fact that the money was being used twice, and also the fact that it added at least 10s to the transaction for the card to be read and the amount to be processed.

Now I have heard tales of true debit systems being more common throughout Europe. Maybe some actual Europeans can fill me in here. Supposedly there are systems where you just pay a lump sum and you get a debit card that is the same as cash and you can pay for things in a lot of places with it. Can you use these as one-use credit cards as well?

Re:How can I pay you?

[JaredOfEuropa]

"Doesn't American Express have something like this? It's called Private Payments. It gives you a unique number that's lets you obscure your identity."

very nice but..."No cards issued outside of the U.S. are currently eligible for Private Payments; however, if you are a U.S. Cardmember, you can use Private Payments to make purchases at non-U.S. sites or merchants." (from their FAQ).

Re:How can I pay you?

[Nick Harkin]

Slashdot ran a story on this back in March, here's the link

Re:How can I pay you?

[SpaceJunkie]

I think that was one concept that is taken for granted in the William Gibson (and others) cyberpunk universe. Anonymous electronic money - without the need for cash.
You could just pop round an offy and buy a credit disk for a few grand and then use it to pay off a deal. Then as long as money could be transfered from one disk to another (think dreamcast VMU's) - you could pay off who ever you liked.
Of course - preventing such items being hacked would be a nightmare. It would have to be encrypted - like an encryption code for each dollar, that the reading of which - and transfer of will destroy it. have it in two seperate systems much like the PS2 IOP and EE memory - which make it harder- so if one number falls out of sync with another the whole card is rendered useless.
Of course the best hackers would still find a way around it if they really wanted to. But then people also forge notes too..

Re:How can I pay you?

[matt_wilts]

I was working in the town at that time (I live there now) and I didn't take part in the trial. I seem to recall they were proposing a charge for using the service - what was the point, I thought, when using cash is free?

If they had perhaps said "we will invest the money in the system to run it and therefore make it free to use" then I might have considered giving it a go.

Matt

Re:How can I pay you?

[puck71]

That's not exactly what I have in mind, since that seems to be a RF type card with money "implanted" on it. This is useful in its own right, but I want a pre-paid type card that you use just as you would use a credit card, except its not linked to a bank account or a credit account. Something like a phone card: you go in to a store, pay cash and get the "cash credit card". The balance would be kept track of on a central database (but just by card number, there's no personal info attached), and not on the card itself. Maybe these exist, but I haven't seen exactly what I'm describing.

Re:How can I pay you?

[Nick Harkin]

Well, it's almost exactly the same, just with the difference of where the data is stored. I guess this allows easier transactions, to people who have a card (via a hook on keyring) but not access to the servers.

Re:How can I pay you?

[puck71]

True. The only problem with the money being stored on the chip is that places now don't accept it. The reason I like my idea is because the businesses don't have to change anything to accept it. It's just like a credit card to them. I think in the future the smart cards will take over, but for now I'm looking for compatibility mostly.

Re:How can I pay you?

[Nick Harkin]

Ah, I see where you're coming from, you're after something that works the same, but that they don't need any upgrades to use.

Agreed, that would be by far the best solution.

Money Launderer's dream

[L. VeGas]

'nuff said

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah baby! I'm dreamin already.

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[Alien Being]

IANAMobster but I don't think the idea of money laundering is to hand it to a bank. If the bills are being tracked, the bank/treasury will pick it up. Don't forget, one end of the transaction is traceable.

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[zoloto]

probably so, but you could cap the limit to 50 bucks or something. enough for the kids to download their music from iTunes w/o a great risk for $$ laundering. at least not too big of a risk.

just my 0.02c i'll pay you anonymously :)

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[L. VeGas]

The most common way of laundering money is to create a shell business and over-report sales.

In other words...

1. Set up sham software business.
2. Buy licences from yourself.
3. PROFIT!

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[Vellmont]

Money laundering doesn't mean turning counterfeit money into real money, it means turning money earned through illegal activities into "legitimate" income. Like say you make money though selling millions of dollars worth of cocaine, you have to somehow hide the source of that income. You turn dirty money into clean money, thus the laundering part of money laundering.

This system is simply a way of transfering cash online. I don't see how this would be usefull for money laundering.

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[FunkSoulBrother]

you don't see how this would be useful?

Step #1: Earn $100,000 selling cocaine.

Step #2: Make 100 anonymous $1,000 purchases to "friends"

Step #3: "Friends" make legitamate purchases from you on Ebay.

thus your money is laundered (provided you pay income tax on your ebay sales.)

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[L. VeGas]

OK, I'll show a very concrete way this could be done. Create an online business that sells access to content, like porn. Or perhaps you could have an online casino. Or software. Anything.

Now typically you would have records of credit card transactions, that could be traced back to the card's owner. With this system, you would have records of transactions that cannot be traced to anyone.

You could then simply pump a buttload of cash into the system and report legitimate profits.

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[Bearpaw]

you don't see how this would be useful?

Step #1: Earn $100,000 selling cocaine.

Step #2: Make 100 anonymous $1,000 purchases to "friends"

Step #3: "Friends" make legitamate purchases from you on Ebay.

You forgot Step #1a: Spend all day standing at a machine feeding in five thousand $20 bills.

No, some of your drug customers might conceivably pay with this system -- just like they now pay with cash -- but you'd still have to funnel the accumulated funds through the accounts of legitimate-looking businesses to launder it.

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[Some Dumbass...]

'nuff said

I dunno... trying to stick a million dollars' worth of bills (even hundreds) into one of these machines would take an awfully long time. And that assumes that they even take large bills - have you ever seen a vending machine which takes hundreds, or even fifties? More than likely, these ATMs will only be useful for relatively small transactions.

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[Vellmont]

And how is this different than how money laundering is done now with fake businesses? Currency is anonymous too, even more so than an ATM machine which has cameras on it.

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[L. VeGas]

have you ever seen a vending machine which takes hundreds?

Every day. Come to Vegas, baby.

I admit, I'm talking out my ass, but money-laundering doesn't typically handle a million bucks per whack. A few thousand, or even 20 - 50 grand maybe.

Millions are the very rare exception, not the rule.

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[L. VeGas]

It's not any different at all. Problem is, many of these fake storefronts are so obviously fake that they attract attention just by existing. I've been in jewelry stores that have an inventory of a few hundred dollars. This is one of the reasons strip clubs have family ties, it's an efficient way to clean the cash. Problem is, then you actually have to run the business.

Of course, there's a few side benefits....

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[eap]

Now typically you would have records of credit card transactions, that could be traced back to the card's owner. With this system, you would have records of transactions that cannot be traced to anyone.

What a great idea!

In fact, let's take it a step further. Eliminate the possibility of being seen shoveling cash into the ATM at night (and the embarassing questions by law enforcement that invariably follow), and just write a bunch of fake receipts for your:

• restaurant |
• cleaners |
• Linux distro company

and pay the cash directly to yourself!

Untraceable!

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[Tackhead]

> Step #1: Earn $100,000 selling cocaine.
> Step #2: Make 100 anonymous $1,000 purchases to "friends"
> Step #3: "Friends" make legitamate purchases from you on Ebay.
> thus your money is laundered (provided you pay income tax on your ebay sales.)

If you pay income tax on your coc^H^H^HeBay sales, so much the better for the IRS. If we can't legalize it, the least we can do is tax it to fund the costs of not legalizing it :)

Seriously, I can't imagine Joe Mobster using this as a means of laundering $100,000, precisely because of the prohibitive taxes that he'd incur. He's better off financially (and has an easier time of it) "giving" $10,000 to 10 of his friends. The 10 of 'em can have a great night at the nearest casino, partying hard until they all leave with $9,000 each.

Yes, Joe Mobster's broken a couple more financial reporting laws by doing that, but hey, he's already broken a bunch of laws by getting money he needs to launder in the first place.

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[Anonymous Coward]

Come to Vegas, baby

Which, of course, is another way to 'launder money- claim you won it (in small amounts so the casino didn't have to report it to the IRS) in Vegas.

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[Alien Being]

The first two examples you mentioned would be prime targets for investigators on the lookout for laundering and other illegal activities. Even with a more inocuous facade I think you might stand out like sore thumb if you received too much cash thru this system.

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[Arker]

Hmm... I'm trying to see a downside here. ;)

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[Wakkow]

Just do it a few pennies a day. Just make sure Lumbergh doesn't find out...

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[Anonymous Coward]

I brought an apartment converting $s into Yen.

It took a while (maybe 30 minutes total), there were two of us and the machines had a $700 limit. ...but it's certainly possible to do.

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[Hard_Code]

s/2. Buy lincences from yourself./2. Buy "Linux licences" from Corel./g

Re:Money Launderer's dream

[Some Dumbass...]

have you ever seen a vending machine which takes hundreds?

Every day. Come to Vegas, baby.

Okay, fair enough. :)

I admit, I'm talking out my ass, but money-laundering doesn't typically handle a million bucks per whack. A few thousand, or even 20 - 50 grand maybe.

Yeah, but that's still a lot of $100 bills at a time (assuming that these ATMs take hundreds), presumably inserted one at a time. And you just know the machine will spit some of them back out. I'm still not convinced that this is a very practical tool for money laundering. Inserting $1000 in hundreds isn't so bad, but 20K in $20s would be a killer.

Too Much Freedom?

[2starr]

Ok, I'm normally a big proponent of identity freedom on the internet, but I'm having a little trouble justifying this one. I think you need to be able to trace the money trail. I just think there are too many bad uses to justify the few good ones.

Arguments?

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[Lord Kholdan]

Ok, I'm normally a big proponent of identity freedom on the internet, but I'm having a little trouble justifying this one. I think you need to be able to trace the money trail. I just think there are too many bad uses to justify the few good ones.

How about the fact that it's no different from cash?

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[2starr]

Well, no, that's not true. Sure, I can hand cash to someone annoymously but I can't (easily) send cash to someone in -say- Afghanistan. I'm sure it's possible, but you'd really have to work at it.

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[jason0000042]

Ok, I'm normally a big proponent of identity freedom on the internet, but I'm having a little trouble justifying this one. I think you need to be able to trace the money trail. I just think there are too many bad uses to justify the few good ones.

How about the fact that it's no different from cash?

Well we should put thumb print reader smart chips in all bills and coins so we can track when cash changes hands. That will be easier than setting up a net of RFID readers every four square feet all over the planet (including in the air and under the sea) to track cash properly.

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[evilviper]

I think you need to be able to trace the money trail.

So you believe in no privacy at all? You believe that nobody should ever be allowed to pay cash at stores? If I go to a store and pay cash, where is the money trail?

there are too many bad uses to justify the few good ones.

Please name a few bad uses... The money isn't really anonymous, law enforcement can still trace your payment to a source and destination. I would assume that this guy will be smart and require the companies recieving the money to be authorized, just as credit card companies require...

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[John Hurliman]

Cash sales generally happen in person. The main abuse I see with this system is black market money being moved around without a trail, but this isn't a whole lot different than Western Union.

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[Knife_Edge]

There is a money transfer system called hawala that allows two people in different locations with a means of communication, who trust each other absolutely, to transfer money without the aid of the banking system. Lots of people use it to send money from America to the the Far East - mostly because it is cheaper than Western Union, etc. However, I understand it is being cracked down on because terrorists were using it to move funds around. Still, it will be difficult to shut down completely since it only takes two people and a means of communication to operate. Most of the people who use this system today do so because there is no reasonable alternative (financial system is not good in their area), not because they are terrorists.

I have read that organized crime transfers money from country to country by wiring small amounts (under the amount that must be reported) constantly. Even though there is a paper trail of sorts, it is very hard to sort through. But again, most of the people who wire money are not organized criminals. Should we stop this practice because some of the people are?

Means of moving illegal money secretively already exist. I think the idea with this system is it could allow people to make online purchases, even if they are from an area of the world that does not have the financial systems and identification systems that we take for granted in the West. I am inclined to think the net effect of this would be good. Many people do not have any sort of identification or formal bank account (as required for a service like paypal, which is apparently unavailable in much of the world), but if they could get to a kiosk with some cash, they might be able to order something - provided someone was willing to ship it to them. This could be a big improvement in the lives of many people. It could also help economic growth, facilitating transactions at greater distances and of greater complexity than was possible before.

Should we not build any infrastructure because criminals could use it? Criminals can drive on the roads, too, but that does not mean we stop building them. We police them. This system would have to be policed.

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[Xerithane]

Cash sales generally happen in person. The main abuse I see with this system is black market money being moved around without a trail, but this isn't a whole lot different than Western Union.

Serial numbers, OCR, easy to track. Along with cameras mounted in the ATM you lose more privacy by using this system than the US Postal service.

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[Lord Kholdan]

Well, no, that's not true. Sure, I can hand cash to someone annoymously but I can't (easily) send cash to someone in -say- Afghanistan. I'm sure it's possible, but you'd really have to work at it.

Physical Mail?

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[Eminor]

Ok, I'm normally a big proponent of identity freedom on the internet, but I'm having a little trouble justifying this one. I think you need to be able to trace the money trail. I just think there are too many bad uses to justify the few good ones.

It's not adding any new loop holes. Cash isn't tracable.

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[autopr0n]

Well, no, that's not true. Sure, I can hand cash to someone anonymously but I can't (easily) send cash to someone in -say- Afghanistan. I'm sure it's possible, but you'd really have to work at it.

Just stick it in a bloody envelope! My god people are so uncreative these days. (Sure, you risk losing it, but the risk isn't that great. You could also break up the cash into several letters to diffuse the risk of loss)

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[dasmegabyte]

And I can't imagine it'll easy for someone in, say, Afghanistan, to retreive cash from this service if it's based in the US. It'll be heavily regulated. So as far as that goes, it'd be better than paypal.

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why Should anyone know where or when I spend my money?
I paid taxes on my earnings, beyond that thats all they need to know.

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[JDBrechtel]

No, you could mail it to them. Or mail them an international money order. Worried that it'll be inspected since it's sent to a suspicious address? Route it to a different country to someone else and have them send it.

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[kitty tape]

I think that the idea of getting these set up in regions where not everyone has a bank account or credit card is a key one. There was a segment on Morning Edition (NPR) this morning which talked about how many people in Mexico do not have bank accounts (and because of this have a hard time saving money). If I remember correctly, they said that only 23% of the people in Mexico have any kind of bank account. Bank accounts and credit cards are far from ubiquitous globally.

Of course, there is still the question of whether or not people in these regions have the money to make online purchases, but the possibility of bringing infrastructure is still important.

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[Anonymous Coward]

What if I want to buy the Poor Man's James Bond? What if Im not going to use it for bad things? What if Im saving it for TEOTWAWKI? I don't want the feds having a list of who owns the book and when TEOAC comes I 'disappear'?

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[irc.goatse.cx troll]

"If I go to a store and pay cash, where is the money trail?"
In the serial numbers on the money, logged when the atm spit it out (with a picture of you from the camera).

Re:Too Much Freedom?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well we should put thumb print reader smart chips in all bills and coins so we can track when cash changes hands

Oh, great, gloves just became a circumvention device....

A black dude wanting your money?

[Anonymous Coward]

He looks suspicious, kinda OJ-like. I'll pass.

Hrmmmm, terrorist concerns?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course I did not read the article (when will you &#&@ editors get a freakin clue, post a non-registration link!!!!), but couldn't this be used by terrorists?

I remember Timothy McVeigh went to the trouble to use calling cards and hide his money trail to avoid raising suspicions... wouldn't terrorists be able to more conveniently purchase necessary wares now? Instead going into a farming goods store and buying large amounts of fertilizer, they could now do it anonymously online (but don't worry about that scenario anymore, the govt has taken care of that... but there are still other scenarios the govt hasn't taken care of).

Sure someone could sign up for a credit card under false credentials, but wouldn't that leave more of a money trail than an anonymous ATM?

Re:Hrmmmm, terrorist concerns?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anonymous, at what level?

The guy obviously cant plan on handling that kind of cash without the IRS looking over his shoulder.

The sender and reciever never know who sent or recieved the cash.

Re:Hrmmmm, terrorist concerns?

[hobbesmaster]

How do you order something without leaving a delivery address? If you're going to go pick it up yourself, why not pay cash in person?

And besides, the interstate highway system could be used by terrorists to quickly move people and supplies around. Should we shut down highways because of this use?

Re:Hrmmmm, terrorist concerns?

[chriso11]

Everything in society is not about terrorism, yet it is the overwhelming topic. I want to make and addendum to Godwin's Law:

Every slashdot discussion will eventually mention terrorism.

Re:Hrmmmm, terrorist concerns?

[superyooser]

Here's an observation that I've observed:

Many Slashdot discussions of important, relevant topics will eventually be stifled by an invocation of Godwin's Law, Occam's Razor, or some other conversational black hole when the invoker is unable or unwilling to continue defending his position.

Everything is not about terrorism, but it's blazingly obvious to me that a machine that could transfer cash internationally, anonymously, and instantaneously would be a huge help to terrorists.

Re:Hrmmmm, terrorist concerns?

[ftobin]

Everything is not about terrorism, but it's blazingly obvious to me that a machine that could transfer cash internationally, anonymously, and instantaneously would be a huge help to terrorists.

This is an extremely poor argument. Your argument would apply the same if we did not have privacy laws, and all of a sudden people proposed having privacy. Using the same logic, because privacy laws helps the boogey-man terrorist immensely, we shouldn't implement them.

The market

[stratjakt]

PayPal wont accept payment for "adult" related eBusiness now (ie; pornos).

Whoever steps in to fill that gap make a friggin mint. The frontrunner seems to be CitiBank's C2It, though I know nothing of such services.

Re:The market

[nelsonal]

This is actually a pretty tough market to make money in because of all the charge backs. As far as I know that is the reason Paypal got out of the business, the fraud losses were too high. There are a few banks which have done it from the beginning First Data owns one but I don't remember the name.

Re:The market

[jbottero]

Arn't you the "upper mid-level management" from Corel? See, this is what went wrong at Corel, all the managers are surfing the net for porn!

Re:The market

[ShadyG]

PayPal wont accept payment for "adult" related eBusiness now (ie; pornos). Whoever steps in to fill that gap make a friggin mint.

Maybe, maybe not. I very much doubt PayPal's decision is based on any kind of moral grounding. It's likely due to the absurdly high rate of chargebacks associated with adult material. Anyone hoping to step in and make a mint from the business had better have a very good way to deal with the tremendous potential losses involved.

Re:The market

[GreggyBUIUC]

(ie; pornos)

PayPal no longer will process payments to online casinos as well.

Re:Article Text

[Anonymous Coward]

A better, more "hip" and "in" way to get karma with nytimes stories is to use the partner hack, as shown by one of the first posts to this story...

Just a tip :)

Great!!

[DogIsMyCoprocessor]

This will allow me to assist my Nigerian friend, Joseph Mbuto, in his attempt to free the $21 million dollar account his uncle once controlled.

What can it do?

[Kotukunui]

If you pay cash for your (legitimate?) music/movie/pr0n download, does the machine have a CD/DVD burner and a disc pops out, or does it have to re-direct the download stream to an e-mail account (thereby identifying the user, damn!).

Some more details on capability would be cool. Google here I come.

Going to need alot of work

[isotope23]

I can see the US government blowing a gasket
about quick and easy anonymous money transfer...

Re:Going to need alot of work

[zoloto]

correct. and once some dumb criminal discovers he can use it to buy a gun (insert 1,000 $, get the card with amount on it, give to gun seller then go bang-bang) and then uses that gun to say... kill a high political figure (no insinuations there!!!) or popular person etc. BAM! instant ban or regulation.

it's nice but this, I fear, will go the way of big hair and mullets... unless you live in the south.

Re:Going to need alot of work

[Xerithane]

correct. and once some dumb criminal discovers he can use it to buy a gun (insert 1,000 $, get the card with amount on it, give to gun seller then go bang-bang) and then uses that gun to say... kill a high political figure (no insinuations there!!!) or popular person etc. BAM! instant ban or regulation.


Yes, and since you have the anonymous purchase card you don't have to register the gun or go through the other processes. "Here's my anonymous cash card!" "Right, here's your pistol and ammo." You do know that you have to register to buy a gun, right? You also know you can buy a gun with cash, right?

Anybody who accepts these cards will accept cash, and you have no benefit over them. For some reason I doubt that most private gun sellers will offer support for these cards.

Re:Going to need alot of work

[tunah]

once some dumb criminal discovers he can use it to buy a gun (insert 1,000 $, get the card with amount on it, give to gun seller then go bang-bang) and then uses that gun to say... kill a high political figure (no insinuations there!!!) or popular person etc. BAM! instant ban or regulation.

But of the money-transfer device, obviously, not guns.

Re:Going to need alot of work

[Sabalon]

The idea behind this is to have a way of sending cash electronically yourself - kinda like what Western Union does, just without them.

If you send the money to Joe's Gun Shop, it is the same as if you just walked in with the $1000 and plopped it down...albiet now you don't have to go across town or across the country. The product then gets shipped to you.

If there is a gun shop that works like this, then the ATF will probably be quite interested. Brady bill? background checks?

OF course, that is assuming that all crimnials buy their guns legit and you never have this:

Criminal: I want to buy this .45
Dealer: Let me run a background check...hmm...says here you are wanted in 5 states for violent crimes...can't see it to you.
Criminal: Oh well...guess I won't kill that person after all. Do you sell a book on quilting instead?

What is happening to the English language?

[Khomar]

From the article: "N the 1997" N?! Now even the New York Times is slipping into Net-speak. *sigh* My old high school English teachers must be in agony. So much for the American education system....

Re:What is happening to the English language?

[Anonymous Coward]

...even the New York Times is slipping into Net-speak. *sigh*...

Doesn't "*sigh*" count as net speak? How embarrassing.

Re:What is happening to the English language?

[Yankovic]

This is really interesting... in the print version, they start the article with the correct "I" rather than "N".

EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL METHOD PATENTS!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's a method patent, a new way of doing business," Mr. Amos said. "These are off-the-shelf components. All I had to do was build the machine and write the software."

So copyright the software, or patent the machine. Don't patent the method!

This is old hat in Japan

[TokyoJimu]

Sorry to disappoint Mr. Amos, but for at least the past twenty years, you have been able to make anonymous cash payments at any bank ATM in Japan.

You just key in the bank name and account number to transfer to, insert the cash, and it's on its way. The ATM will even make change for you.

Re:This is old hat in Japan

[todu]

Hmm.. How very innovative of the inventor. So an "invention" as obvious as this may exist in Japan for 20 years, and still the US "inventor" gets a US patent? Did the PTO know this while issuing the patent? So prior art is only prior art if it is prior art inside the US?

Re:This is old hat in Japan

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but....

you can only make these payments within Japan if you are a Japanese citizen.

He's talking about automating *international* wire transfers of money. The inherent self-limitation and discrimination is enough to disqualify the Japanese system for a patent. Besides, I think you would be hard pressed to find a teller machine that would allow a transfer without some sort of identification. Sure you might be able to find some machine tucked away in some small Hakidao hamlet, but the vast majority of machines require ident. (and you are usually on camera).

Re:This is old hat in Japan

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure? I was under the impression that anyone can put cash into the machine and pay to someone else's bank account. I don't think the money has to come from your account.

Re:This is old hat in Japan

[KalvinB]

"You just key in the bank name and account number to transfer to, insert the cash, and it's on its way"

What are the implications of putting your bank account number on a web-site as a means to collect payments?

In other words, what information is critical for getting money OUT of an account vs INTO an account?

Ben

Re:This is old hat in Japan

[TokyoJimu]

> What are the implications of putting your bank account
> number on a web-site as a means to collect payments?

It is very common in Japan for the bank account number to be listed in an advertisement. This is still the main way that people pay for mail order goods and invoiced services.

To get the money out, you need to have the passbook for the account and the hanko (seal), or an ATM card and PIN.

Re:This is old hat in Japan

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I'm sure...

the vast majority of machines these days won't even open up the money collection device unless you have a card yourself.

You can deposit money with a certain amount of anonymity at convience stores, but these systems still required that you have a printed reciept and that usually means some time of identification.

There's also the post office. But the koban is probably right around the corner from the post office and I believe you'll have a little bit of trouble deposting from post offices outside of your city registation area.

All in all, Japan is even harsher on personal privacy the the US.

Re:This is old hat in Japan

[Belly]

You are incorrect - various bank ATMs here in Japan still allow cash transfers ("genkin furicomi") without an ATM card or anything. Although there are some which don't..depends on the bank and how big the ATM corner is.

Re:This is old hat in Japan

[jrumney]

you can only make these payments within Japan if you are a Japanese citizen.

Not true. I am not a Japanese citizen, and I have used one of these ATMs to transfer money to someone elses bank account (not anonymously, since I wanted them to know it was me paying the bill, but entering identifying details was optional). I did not even have a bank account in Japan at the time, I just put the cash I wanted to transfer into the machine. This was not some small Hakidao hamlet (whereever that is), it was downtown Kita-Kyushu (pop. 1M).

Re:This is old hat in Japan

[Anonymous Coward]

Some ATMs in Australia will also accept cash and cheque deposits.

Funny

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

The New York Times has an article about a way to anonymously transfer cash online (NYT registration required)

Why to I find this sentence funny ?

So, finally banking can be anonymous (yeah right, in your wildest dreams, but we still need to register with NYT?
No wait, you can't do do banking with a hotmail account ...

Re:Funny

[ShadyG]

"The New York Times has an article about a way to anonymously transfer cash online"

Why do I find this sentence funny?

Split infinitive?

Is there an identity verification system?

[alen]

How does it perform identification to verify that the person picking up the money is the person you paid. I don't really see this serving any use since there already is a cash transfer system. It's called postal money orders.

Re:Is there an identity verification system?

[Gherald]

It's called postal money orders.

Last I checked a postal order took more than 2 minutes...

Already been done.

[Creepy Crawler]

Good ol' R, S , and A made quite a while back a system to digitize money into extremly long numbers to represent money. Each number would be encoded the bill amount alone. They also proved it would be untrackable and unbreakable.

They also made into the system a way of determining real-time if any "bill" was being used more than once.

Wow. Anonymous atm. It's a real shocker if it hasnt already be theorized up to the top.

boring.

Good Luck

[FunkSoulBrother]

Its already big pain in the ass (for an American)to get some money online to bet on a football game.

The way they crack down on the gambling industry, you can bet they'd scream "terrorism" and "drugs" and all the other things they have wars on.

Not to mention the Tax Evasion uses, and we all know that taxes are #1 when it comes to the governments concern.

Re:Good Luck

[alen]

If this thing works over telecommunications circuits then it's illegal to use it for gambling. The law is decades old and not something that was made up for the internet.

Re:ATM machine?!

[gantrep]

Yo dizzog, i is gonta go to da ATM machine and put in my PIN number so's i can gets some cash money so's i can go see 2 Fast 2 Furious. Wanna come wit?

Been Done.....

[Anonymous Coward]

https://213.132.35.90/

Re:Been Done.....

[rawkphish]

is this for real ? anyone else heard of DMT/ALTA ?

Re:Been Done.....

[linuxrunner]

You need to hang out on the freenet more often.

sounds good

[alienhazard]

This sounds like a very good idea to me. Being one of those teens that has money, Its a pain to buy stuff online through my parents. Although I could also see this being used for bad, i.e. kids anonymously buying pr0n, alchohol, or other illegal/immoral things.

Re:sounds good

[UnknownQ]

As another teen with money, I would suggest getting a debit card. If your bank is nice and your parents will agree to cosign on it then you should be in luck.
I can shop at any on-line store that accepts MasterCard (I, for one, welcome our new "master" card masters). The trick is I still gotta talk my parents into driving me to the bank when I have a check to deposit.

Re:sounds good

[Anonymous Coward]

Immoral?

Who's morality are you basing your judgment upon?

Re:sounds good

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, finally I'd be able to get my cousins off my back. Little buggers always want something...

Re:sounds good

[Jonah Hex]

Well this blows the good old "kids can't buy nasty things on the internet" excuse the online cigarette resellers use. (As seen recently on TechTV's Unscrewed interview with the owner of Freedom Tobacco.)

Technology really does make all things possible, unfortunately government and most people believe they are safe because "it can't be done now".

Jonah Hex

Re:sounds good

[Jade E. 2]

Being one of those teens that has money...

Dude, what do you think you're doing? Slashdot trolls aren't supposed to admit they're adolescents! Next thing you know people will start putting honest answers on the polls, and then the whole world will collapse!

Re:sounds good

[Idarubicin]

Although I could also see this being used for bad, i.e. kids anonymously buying pr0n, alchohol, or other illegal/immoral things.

Yes, it's a good thing that kids don't have access to pornography or alcohol now...

FUCK YOU, "HIP_GUY"!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe you should read what he actually posted before you try to be "cool-guy"....you stupid fuck.

oh, a GO PENISBIRD, GO!!!!

Re:FUCK YOU, "HIP_GUY"!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. I don't know you from a pile of shit, but hey...since we're all getting into a hissy: FUCK OFF YOU FUCKING COCK-SUCKER! Oh, and why don't you EAT MY FUCKING ASS YOU PANSY FAG POLE SMOKING ASSHOLE!!! Ah, posting horrid insults anonymously really gets my rocks off. oooooooooooooh

Amazed no one has mentioned ...

[binaryDigit]

The sticker on the ATM that says "please ignore the camera". Oh and the finger prints you're leaving on the keypad.

Re:Amazed no one has mentioned ...

[pherris]

Maybe this and this would help.

ot

[Anonymous Coward]

"If there is a better solution... steal it." - Thomas Edison

heh

Potential users...

[Anonymous Coward]

"..might be teenagers.. [who] do not usually have their own credit cards, they usually have cash and are more than willing to spend it to download music or games"

Hah.. more like kids who will continue to download games and music from Kazaa, and instead sign up to pay-per-view porn sites ;)

Re:Potential users...

[Dave2 Wickham]

Any reason they don't get their porn from Kazaa now? ;-)

Re:This looks like a good way to fund terrorists

[alen]

The law is that if you transfer $10,000 or more to a financial institution it needs to be reported to the feds. Criminals will need to do a lot of micro transactions to pay their bills.

Useless invention

[PincheGab]

This sounds fine in principle, but the state banking authorities all over the USA are clamping down on "anonymous" funds transfers rather ferociously, specially after Sept 11.

This is not hearsay or speculation, I work in the financial services industry, and I can tell you that the financial laws are going the other way - less anonymity and higher identification requirements for money wires.

In other words, this guy will have to keep transactions down a ridiculously low upper limit to avoid ID requirements.

I have seen people wiring money for very fraudulent puposes, so I don't really share people's feelings that wiring money should be anonymous.

As for this guy's plans to use the technolgy abroad, he should take into consideration that the USA is requiring other countries to follow USA-like laws and he might have the same issue abroad.

Again, this is from first-hand experience, not hearsay.

Re:Useless invention

[alen]

The article said that he is marketing this to kids buying junk on ebay I guess. But all the kids that bought DVD's from me paid me by money order if they didn't have a credit card. What use is this invention going to have? You need some form of identification to make sure that the right person gets the money.

Re:Useless invention

[Anonymous Coward]

He has your info sure, and essentially just deposits cash straight into your account. The customer needs no bank account, credit card, PayPal account, etc.

He just goes to the local box and sticks 20 bucks cash money into a slot, which electronically credits you. He is somewhat anonymous, paying cash (of course, you are shipping to him), you are not.

People are hyping the word "anonymous" erroneosly here.

Re:Useless invention

[Dave2 Wickham]

Just to nitpick (;)) eBay has a no under-18 policy. I've been buying stuff online sice I was 11 w/ my debit card, but still can't use eBay.

Re:Useless invention

[Zebbers]

please explain the fraudulent purposes

Re:Useless invention

[ftobin]

I have seen people wiring money for very fraudulent puposes, so I don't really share people's feelings that wiring money should be anonymous.

Do you have problems with people exchanging cash anonymously? If not, please explain how putting this transaction over a wire should make a difference.

Re:Useless invention

[PincheGab]

Do you have problems with people exchanging cash anonymously? If not, please explain how putting this transaction over a wire should make a difference.

Simple: Exchanging cash requires a physical presence. If you need to send your sales cash to your colombian drug suppliers you have to physically go there (and go through both countries' customs, immigration, and other legal checks on your way), or you can go down to a money wire service and potentially bypass all those checks both countries have. Which would you choose?

Re:Useless invention

[ftobin]

Your example presumes an international cash exchange. What about intranational, where you won't have to go through checks such as customs.

Re:Useless invention

[Anonymous Coward]

I have seen people wiring money for very fraudulent puposes, so I don't really share people's feelings that wiring money should be anonymous.

And I've seen in the news that the administration is claiming the right to throw me in prison, indefinitely, without access to a lawyer, if I send a donation to an organization that they designate as terrorist. And they have no objective criteria for this designation, so I have no guarantee that they won't designate a political organization they dislike.

Thanks for your concern, but I'd rather take my chances with con artists and drug dealers.

Camera

[headbulb]

ATM's have camera's So if the need arised they could get your face. This is how I invision it to work. You gat a card that has no named attached you put the card in the ATM. You put the cash in the mechine, the atm then puts the money on the card.(that does not have your name on it) So I see it could be a anomynous debit card. Being only able to spend whats on the card. But what banks will support it. I would get something like that. Maybe I should go lookup the patent.

Very useful if properly implemented

[cybermint]

I run a couple websites and a large portion of my user base is kids in the range of 14-17. Collecting cash from them has always been a problem. Some would opt to send in cash, but this has problems as well. I can see this becoming very popular if it gets implemented well.

The breakdown of user demographics:

[JVert]

10% paranoid tinfoil hat community.
15% teenagers buying from ebay.
60% preteens buying drugs and pr0n.
15% illegal transfers of hijacked subnets.

Thank you tinfoil hat freaks. You have made the world safer for us all.

Re:The breakdown of user demographics:

[ranolen]

Did you know that 90% of stats are made up...

Re:The breakdown of user demographics:

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot this demographic:

10% people who have had their credit trashed via identity theft and can no longer get even a debit card.... you know the same people who, as soon as they open weven savings bank account, get hit with legal garnishments by the government and collection agencies. Believe it or not, some people are *forced* to operate on a cash only basis and I'm not just talking about paycheck to paycheck, lower 10% of the economey types.

Oh and this demo. as well:

10% illegal aliens. You know... people without SSNs. Oh sure, you say "good thing"; they shouldn't be allowed to use the InterWeb in the USA if their "illegal", but when their cheap labor goes away, you bemoan the fact that all the jobs are going across the boarder/overseas.

Basically, for every illegitimate excuse you can think of, I can think of 10 legitimate uses.

As a teenager, I can definitely see a use for this

[Psyonic]

Obviously this system is not perfect, but as a teenager who has a good deal of cash but no credit card, and doesn't like to go to his parents to buy stuff online, I think I would definitely use this if I thought it was safe. I am security-minded, but the main reason I would use this is convenience, not privacy. However, rather than buying music and games online, like the article suggested, I would probably use it to buy real merchandise (band shirts, etc)

Somethings not right...

[fehlschlag]

Although I really support the idea of being anonymous for protective purposes, I don't quite understand how this product helps very much.

Sure, you don't have the logs of cash coming out of your account (credit, savings, etc), but there is cash being sent somewhere, and that somewhere has to be well-defined for the cash to get there.
Also, the product, assuming something is bought, has to go somewhere, again a well-defined location, even if it is a mail-drop.

AFAIK, all wired money transactions are logged in some fashion, and for this to be approved by the government, it would have to be as well. I still don't see how super-beneficial this gimmick might be.

Re:Somethings not right...

[LostCluster]

Anonymity is something this product fails badly at, so that isn't it's main use.

Think of this as a machine that spits out a "prepaid" credit card on the spot. Somebody who doesn't qualify for a credit card can stick money in, and then get a card number that's valid for online transactions... finally a way for little Jimmy to spend his allowance money at Amazon.com without having to bother his parents.

disposable credit card numbers

[fredistheking]

I had my account number stolen after buying computer equipment from small online stores (pricewatch). After having to change my account number I started using disposable credit card numbers from American Express. These numbers can only be used once and expire at the end of the month. Also, if someone were able to crack the Amex system, at least I will be notified. I was not so lucky before. If you are really paranoid, I imagine that you can call and get these numbers over the phone as well.

Re:disposable credit card numbers

[Fred Ferrigno]

1.) Yes, I am the king, thank you.

2.) I've bought stuff from online computer stores dozens of times, each time with credit cards, and I've never had a single erroneous charge. Of course, I always make sure to check out the place before hand, and I'm always a bit leery when the price is too good.

3.) Those AMEX cards are good for a month, which means they have a month to rack up as many charges as they can.

4.) Your account information was not stolen; you gave it to them. You also give that same information to a pimply-faced teenager earning minimum wage every time you charge to your card in a "normal" store.

I'm not saying a little paranoia isn't healthy -- obviously I practice it myself -- but to be honest, the best and only truly effective way to protect against credit card theft is to review your bill carefully.

eBay scammers will love this!

[Anonymous Coward]

They'll insist on you paying via this method, and then not ship you the item. You can't prove that you paid for it. Brilliant!

Re:This looks like a good way to fund terrorists

[PincheGab]

The law is that if you transfer $10,000 or more to a financial institution it needs to be reported to the feds

It's not even that simple, nor is the threshold that high. There are several levels of reporting requirements and the lowest explicit thresholds are at about $3000 for most states.

Additionally, funds transfers companies are burdened with detecting "suspicious" transactions, and you have to report those no matter what the amounts are.

I am not going to spell out how to do this, just suffice it to say that the methods are very sophisticated.

This guy ain't implementing his invention in the USA (and the non-triangle of terror countries) until he gets some heavy-duty legal compliance checking stuff into his system. The age of anonymous funds transfers is over.

Heh, I'm so funny.

[gantrep]

Also,

Will these new ATM machines use the HTTP protocol?

Re:Heh, I'm so funny.

[Anonymous Coward]

Only the ones from UMB Bank will. (United Missouri Bank ... Bank).

Something like that must be done at a global level

[gmuslera]

Not in all countries is easy to get an international credit card that can be used to pay things online. There are requeriments like age, minimum of transactions or salary, maybe not previus debts, and things like that.

Something that enables to pay directly with cash, no risks involved (like the fear of many of using their credit card number online) and really for everyone (well, with the cash and with that kind of ATMs near :) could do a real boom for online payments (at least, for the things that don't have a phisical good attached, like program registrations, online donations, domain buying and things like that).

--place tinfoil hat reference here--

[Anonymous Coward]

just wanted to spoil it before someone did it.

Re:ATM machine?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Do not say "ATM machine." It is redundant.

You Slashdot grammar nazi need a girlfriend

I'm on to you, Michael Sims.

Yeah, right, obviously ...

I TRIED IT...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's damn good.

Good ol' PK muds... just like the good ol' days.

Visa Electron and friends

[jmaatta]

"..might be teenagers.. [who] do not usually have their own credit cards, they usually have cash and are more than willing to spend it to download music or games"

A Visa Electron debit card (and probably some others, I don't know) is currently the best solution for those who just can't get a credit card. It's basically a credit card that takes the money directly from its owner's bank account (if there's anything to take :). This requires a direct connection between the bank and the seller though, so most smaller sites don't support it.

Re:Visa Electron and friends

[Dave2 Wickham]

In England, at least, Switch is pretty big (a debit card system) and accepted virtually everywhere mastercard, etc, are accepted. There's also a version of that for younger people, Solo. I've had a solo card from NatWest since I was 11; it's accepted most places switch is.

Re:Article Text

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Stratjackt, you're not trolling as an AC anymore ?

It's not the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

To the problem of identity theft. I won't buy
anything online without using a "virtual credit
card number" from citi cards. They will
reimburse you if your citi card is hacked and
you get strange amounts from Egypt charged to
your account. The "virtual number" is good only
one time, so you get it, then use it. Refunds
are a problem, however, so you'd have some
'splaining to do to the merchant if the item is
not what you want, etc. and you paid for it with
a card number that is now "history". My Bank
told me _never_ to let my ATM card number loose
on the internet, and I will comply with their
request to keep it zipped up. So, all those
attractive online sites with fabulous computer
stuff for sale, I'll be passing them by for the
most part. I only deal with really big names,
and then use the citi card "virtual account
number". I imagine some of these so called
"online stores" are just fronts for credit card
theft and soforth. Call some of them up
sometime, and see how they sound in "person".
Try explaining why the "salesperson" has a very
heavy foreign accent. Also, isn't it strange
that you get to talk with no one else? Just
because a website looks legit, do some checking
around. I called the local police on one, and
they took a ride to the "supposed address" and
couldn't find anything. Beware, online shoppers!

Easily Bypassing NYT 'Registration Required'

[FsG]

1. Click on URL, you're redirected to registration/login page
2. Go to URL bar, replace "www" with "archive" in the URL, leaving the rest alone, and hit ENTER
3. The system will bounce you around a few erroneous URLs, before returning you to the homepage
4. All NYT links will now work without registration, thanks to a special cookie set by the bouncing process

Re:Easily Bypassing NYT 'Registration Required'

[Anonymous Coward]

nice!

Re:Easily Bypassing NYT 'Registration Required'

[Anonymous Coward]

and how about the pricey articles that they only give u the abstract of? i.e. one month old?

Re:GIVE IT UP!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you guys post on here??? You are pathetic losers who really need to get a life.

Re:Article Text

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Stratjackt just mentioned PenisBird in his troll.
2. There is a "PenisBird" who is a member of the GNAA.

I would jump to the conclusion that he is affiliated with the GNAA more quickly than the SJP.

David Chaum is the guy we should be watching

[TerryAtWork]

As soon as his patents on his excellent e-cash protocols expire we can get down to business.

Re:David Chaum is the guy we should be watching

[Anonymous Coward]

Where have you been :-)

Unfortunately David Chaum did patent his e-cash protocol years ago and started a company called "digicash" ... which failed big time like many other dotcoms.

No way in Hell

[felonious]

With all of the anti-terrorism tasks in effect there is no way this will happen and/or last simply because it's an anonymous way to move funds. This goes directly against laws being implemented to stop all forms of money laundering, transfering funds with maximum anonimity, and fake store fronts of which to move the money through.

There's so much more to this but the only way this idea would make it is for it to not be anon but that defeats the purpose right?

Huh?

[autopr0n]

Why not just use the $1000 to buy the gun? What's the point of buying the card?

Actually,

[chriso11]

The conversation really goes like:

I'd like a gun and ammo
Here you go. That'll be $342.22
Here's my anonymous cash card!
Right, here's your pistol and ammo.
Oh - I won't be needing a bag...

Re:Actually,

[Xerithane]

Have you ever actually bought a gun?

Many problems this solves are *already* solved...

[Anonymous Coward]

by systems like e-gold.com, e-bullion.com, pecunix.com etc.

These payment systems are worldwide, do not suffer the chargeback problem, and seem to be fine with gambling and adult sites. They are also not linked to any particular national currency so should appeal to more libertarian among us.

Example: Wanna gamble now with them?

Suuuuuuure...

[Duncan3]

Getting a debit card and a checking account is trivial and legal for any 6yr old. That's NOT the target market.

But it's primary use will be for drug dealers to launder money. For married men(and women) to pay for hookers and strippers. For people to turn petty cash into petty lap dance...

Big market for those things tho ...

Re:Suuuuuuure...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. That all sounds pretty sweet.

where's the anonymity?

[forgetmenot]

The slashdot blurb talks about anonymous payments... Lots of comments in this thread talk about anonymous payments whether how it would work or whether the gov't would cry foul, etc...

A search on the article itself does NOT have the word "anonymous" anywhere in it.

So... given that the article is very short on implementation details, how does one come to the conclusion there is anything anonymous about it? Because no credit card is involved? Not saying it isn't... but it just seems there's a big jump to conclusions.. unless I'm blind.

Re:where's the anonymity?

[alexo]

Speaking of anonymity.

Is it possible to make a PayPal payment without the recipient getting the payer's info?

An easy way to implement this would be...

[CastrTroy]

I think a good way for them to implement this would be to allows customers the ability to print out a "Bill", It would have some number on it tying it to the person's purchase. The "Bill" could then be paid at an ATM machine just like many other bills such as utility bills are. After probably a day or two of processing time, when the seller gets confirmation of payment of the bill, the product could be shipped. This may not be as anonymous as other means, but only uses existing infrastructure to process payments. This would make deployment of such a system quite easy, and low risk if it doesn't catch on.

Re:ATM machine?!

[Anonymous Coward]

"yo" should be "Hey" or another appropriate interjective greeting.

Is "interjective" a word?

It's a Trap

[jazman_777]

Don't do it, it's run by the FBI/CIA/NSA!

This is a really simple system to setup

[Anonymous Coward]

Atm take deposits add a data scanner there have computer print out a data sheet containing account number amount and invoice number from a well this setup is simple and verry safe. When ever you deposit money into a bank account you can add what ever title you like to the deposit but most of the time you have to go to the counter to deposit the the money to add the title. Now on the cheap have user enter Account number invoice number and amount but this is not partically safe. Basicly also the atm could have you most common on autolist.

C2lt...

[heironymouscoward]

is OK, but the real winner for the adult industry has got to be HSBC's rival Cl1t system. So much more to the point...

Re:C2lt...

[Sabalon]

The problem is that everyone always goes right for the Cl1t system...they never look around to see what other options there are first.

What's wrong with the K1S5 system? Hmm? Why not start off with a nice K1S5 transaction? You don't have to go leaping at the Cl1T system like a bull at the gate.

Etc, etc...

Two words...

[thebigmacd]

...drug dealers.
(or money launderers)
[or hot items]

Re:Two words...

[radja]

2 words: consumer privacy.

there's a good reason why I prefer using cash. companies have a habit of entering your address into their DB, and send you shitty catalogs. cash is anonymous, so anonymous money is not a problem.

nothing to do with MONEY and ONLINE are anonymous

[Anonymous Coward]

when will you paranoid biased slashdotters stop posting blatantly false headlines. Anonymous money transfer? Yea fucking right, the bank will always know what you've purchased and I'm sure they'll dispense that info to any law enforcement officer that asks for it.

I like it

[hey]

Gosh, everyone is so negative on this.
Well... I like the idea of anonymous cash transfers.

Re:ATM machine?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Is "interjective" a word?

Yes

Re:This looks like a good way to fund terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

"The age of anonymous funds transfers is over."

Ummm NO.

Try Belize, Bermuda, St. Kitts, Nevis, Costa Rica, Hong Kong, Seychelles and Liechtenstein to name a few.

If you do not keep your assets in one of these countries than you must not have very much.

Nope, can't be material things

[A nonymous Coward]

Suppose your records show your sold twice as many meals for the amount of food you bought as any other restaurant. Or cleaned twice as many clothes for the amount of cleaning material used as any other cleaner.

Has to be data, content, not anything material. Even then, a simple trace would show how much was actually transferred in the period you claimed.

It's a step in the right direction.

[qtp]

Although I didn't see any actual mention of anonymity in the article, it's not hard to imagine that this device does create a more private way to do business.

As for all of the posts about drug dealers, money launderers, adulterers, and terrorists, you're right, those people would use an anonymous method of payment/transfer if it were easily/readily available, but so would political disidents (are they terrorists if they dissagree with you?), persons worried about identity theft, and people like me, who simply resent the governments attempts to count every roll of toilet paper I buy and every book or magazine that I read.

illegal

[austad]

Unfortunately, this is illegal. I work for one of the companies listed in the article.

It's against the law. The feds say that all ATM transactions must have positive ID of the cardholder (PIN number, driver's license swipe, etc) As far as electronic money transfers go, there has to be some positive identification on the person sending the money, but curiously from what I can find, not on the person receiving it.

Nice idea, just not legal here in the US.

Re:illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting that the electronic money transfer rule is the opposite of physical deposits. You can walk into a bank and make a deposit with cash to an account. No ID, verification, etc., needed. They never verify if you are the account holder.

I know this because I do this all the time for my parents, as favors for friends (can you drop this off since you're going to the bank?). 6 months ago, I looked quite different than when I opened the account and have never ever been questioned or asked to present ID.

The Reality of Assassination Politics

[bastion]

Does anyone remember Assassination Politics by Jim Bell?

A few months ago, I had a truly and quite literally "revolutionary" idea, and I jokingly called it "Assassination Politics": I speculated on the question of whether an organization could be set up to legally announce that it would be awarding a cash prize to somebody who correctly "predicted" the death of one of a list of violators of rights, usually either government employees, officeholders, or appointees. It could ask for anonymous contributions from the public, and individuals would be able send those contributions using digital cash.

I also speculated that using modern methods of public-key encryption and anonymous "digital cash," it would be possible to make such awards in such a way so that nobody knows who is getting awarded the money, only that the award is being given. Even the organization itself would have no information that could help the authorities find the person responsible for the prediction, let alone the one who caused the death.

Read more

and this is good how?

[Anonymous Coward]

just another way for crackers to transfer funds easily.

less here than meets the eye

[alizard]

This requires that ATMs be retrofitted or custom-built to handle inputs of cash, and that banks be willing to handle cash transfers from individuals to individuals and be willing to accept a far lower ATM reliability level and increased service/maintenance costs at the same time. (i.e. if the cash ID/counting machinery is down, so's the machine)

The potential profits are too low for the risks involved. Also, there are already ATMs that have been retrofitted to accept cash for the purpose of paying bills for defined (telco, utility) customers. Ever see one?

There are cheaper and more cost-effective ways to do this than via ATM, I filed a provisional patent app for one years ago.

Agree

[idiotfromia]

I am also under 18 and like to buy things off the internet. This hasn't hindered me as much as some. I have a job and a checking account. Many online merchants accept checks now, but I still run the risk of sending a check through the mail. But worse than that is the time. In the instant online world I do not want to wait days for the USPS to get my check across country.

adult payment

[Anonymous Coward]

The adult business wants recurring billing, so they can keep billing you month after month for crappy sites you may never visit again. A few of them use e-gold (not many, yet). And yes, I guess you could joke that "e-gold makes money the old-fashioned way -- they mint it" only it's really-true. e-gold works, and has since 1996. They're not totally-anonymous, but they're more-private than the banks/plastic.

NYT

[Anonymous Coward]

The New York Times should allow anonymous usage!
I hate it when that site gets pointed to.... like I have time to screw with that.

Re:As a teenager, I can definitely see a use for t

[sparrow_hawk]

It's this kind of thing that will really make a concept like the iTunes Music Store fly, since a lot of teens share music, but don't have credit cards to buy it legally online (myself included). I don't think P2P will ever go away, especially since there really are legitimate uses for it -- RedHat ISOs and the like -- but it would certainly make using KaZaA less compelling. I think I would still download songs to test them out, but I'd then spring the buck a song to get whatever I decided I liked.

Anonymity

[Vegan Pagan]

if the feds got involved, they could probaqbly find you (from the camera, etc).

What's the penalty for wearing a mask in front of the camera?

Re:Anonymity

[RFC959]

In many places there are laws against wearing a mask in public. They're not usually enforced, obviously, but they do exist, at least in part to give the police an excuse to grab you if they catch you wearing a mask, or to give the prosecutor an extra charge to tack on.

Re:Anonymity

[Anonymous Coward]

Michael Jackson has a residence near my town in southern california. He's always wandering around the town in a spiderman mask, freaking people out.

teens today

[digtl88]

I have been hearing so much about how younger teens are growing up faster than they use to. So I bet a lot of them do have credit/debit cards and checking accounts. So i am sure this will be a target for the new product.

Like phone cards

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like phone cards, I want to go to a 7-11 and pay cash for a Visa or MasterCard card in $100, $250, or $500 denominations. What's so hard about that?

NYT Registration gets us AGAIN!

[writermike]

"The New York Times has an article about a way to anonymously transfer cash online (NYT registration required)."

You mean I actually have to register with the NYT to anonymously transfer cash online?!

WHEN. WILL. IT. STOP?!

Cool!

[nzyank]

Now I can sign up for that online matchmaking thing without my wife finding out!

Cool..

[Anonymous Coward]

This would be great for orginized crime .. :)

Try CashX (www.cashx.com)

[Anonymous Coward]

These are particularly great if you are near one of the locations where they are physically sold. It's a Visa card for online (and phone) purchases only, with a 2 year expiration. You have to activate it online, but you can do that from any internet cafe, or through trusted proxies. You have to give a physical address, but it can be totally spoofed. An e-mail address is required, but just use one of the non-obvious disposable ones (i.e. NOT Hotmail, Yahoo). You can recharge it by mailing in a money order.

Be warned, however--if you give a spoofed physical address, you may likely have problems ordering delivered goods to your real physical address (not to mention that such orders obviously compromise your anonymity).

Also, since it is a Visa card, it is subject to any restrictions Visa might adopt (for gambling sites, for example, although I don't know that they do have such restrictions).

Documented immigration

[Anonymous Coward]

Cheap labor would not go away. The U.S. has had many millions of legal immigrants. Except for a few lunatics, people against illegal immigration are in favor of documented immigration. It is not about preventing people from coming in, it is about know who is coming in.

how do you pay me?

[Anonymous Coward]

what are good suggestions for remaining anonymous during the receipt of large sums via electronic funds transfer or otherwise?

Bank drafts? Bonds? Reserve notes? Diamonds?

Is there Such thing as a truly anonymous electronic funds transfer?

Re:how do you pay me?

[Anonymous Coward]

1 paper bag, 2 holes for eyes

Money laundering

[Julian Morrison]

... is a fundamental human right.

YOUR property
YOUR money
YOUR business and nobody else's.

What about paypal.com?

[spike it]

Paypal is a service that you can use to pay anyone online. Sign up, and you can send money from a CC or checking account to anyone who has a valid e-mail addy. They also have a Visa card that has great protection services.

Re:What about paypal.com?

[Fooknut]

Paypal is not anonymous, so how does it compare to this?. Ahhh, it doesn't.

It's not about reliable payment methods, it's about anonymous reliable payment methods.

Old news in Belgium

[Potor]

I can already do this in Belgium. I can pay for anything through my ATM, or through my computer, for that matter. Bank transfers are a normal way of paying for things over here, and ATM allow for such, as does my homebanking software. Most sellers on ebay.be will give you their bank account number, and you just transfer the money. C'est simple! Zo gemakkelijk is dat!

The big question...

[oskarfasth]

I've spent the last five or so years wondering why someone hadn't invented something like this. It was always so frustrating that I could buy a freaking Piper Jet if I bought it cash, but I couldn't even buy stamps online without the consent and cooperation of my folks. And then, two weeks after I finally am old enough to own a Visa, someone does. I bet lots of people at slashdot had the competence to do such a thing; so my question to you are simple. How come noone implemented this awfully simple idea *years* ago?

It's time to go back on the gold standard

[Anonymous Coward]

When the Founding Fathers wrote the constitution, the fundamental property rights it embodies were rooted in actual intrinsicly valuable commodities. When the Federal government took your land under the 5th amendment, they had to compensate you in gold. Even well into the end of the 19th century, the biggest hotbutton currency debate concerned minting silver instead of gold.

Today, we're off the gold and silver standards altogether. This is truly sad. Instead of being able to predict how much a dollar will be worth tomorrow, we leave that decision up to the whims of international currency daytraders. It's little surprise that inflation rates under the Carter administration crested well over 10% so soon after Nixon pulled us out of Vietnam and took us off the gold standard.

The economy of the twentyfirst century cannot withstand uncertainties. The technological revolutions of the industrial age all occurred under the gold standard. Why should we experiment with a proven thing? Why let politicians pay off their political debts by devaluing our currency? Brazil went down that path, and we needn't follow.

In today's economic climate, the prudent investor will consider converting at least part of his or her paper assets into precious metals. Right now, with metal prices at a fraction of their all-time highs, may be an ideal time to invest in precious metals. The Gold Vienna Philharmonic sets the standard in purity and popularity. And with the exclusive Monex buy-back guarantee, your gold investment can only maintain or increase in value for one year, which adds a unique benefit to your gold purchase. Sign up today and receive a free copy of Gold In The Age Of Uncertainty.

wow

[cascadingstylesheet]

For married men(and women) to pay for hookers and strippers.

Wow, to encounter PC even in a semi-anonymous, trash-talking online forum! ;)

Surely you don't really think that there are a statistically significant number of women (and married women, yet) paying for hookers and strippers?

Why is parent modded down?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't agree with the artwork on the t-shirts? Fine, don't buy any. Yes, you're entitled to your taste, but likewise, everybody else is entitled to theirs too!

Re:ATM machine?!

[MrBlint]

"Yo" is a perfectly respectable word derived from the Gaelic "oi" (which is pronounced "Yo"). It is a spoken exclamation. The written symbol for exclamation (!) is actually derived from the "i" and the "o" in the word "oi".

Or so I was told.

Re:ATM machine?!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll be dead in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Gaelic (gay-lick) as a language.

Sincerely,
Seth "Not Gay" Finklestein

Re:ATM machine?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hrmm.. dictionary.com and m-w.com don't have it. But there's something for interjectional... Dunno...

Visa Buxx Re:How can I pay you?

[dspyder]

It's interesting, but not quite good enough. It's really really focused on parents and their children, and they make it really difficult to get signed up and get a card. I believe they charge pretty rediculous monthly or yearly fees too.

I was hoping they would be more like giftcards or phonecards: easy to pick up, no additional fees, instantly activated, totally anonymous, rechargable or disposable.

Visa Buxx is really just a regular debit (not even credit really) card backed by kids parents and with a preset spending limit. That and some additional reports online and in your bill.

--D

Drop caps

[yerricde]

Is there an I-beam looking thing to the left side of the first paragraph? Or is there a broken image? If so, then you are probably dealing with a drop cap.

Make This a Req. For Political Contributions

[sosiosh]

Maybe this system can become a requirement for political contributions. Give anyone you support any amount of money, or just claim that you did. Anonymous contributions woul take the "money talks" power of individuals away since no politician will know exactly where the money came from. Perhaps to make it more secure, force delivery into even-sized chunks over a period of time... obfuscating particularly large contributions, so that you can't tell who contributed by just seeing how much they did. Perhaps throttle the delivery of the money. This would be awesome for the US political scene.