Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

ATM For Anonymous Online Payments

Posted by simoniker on from the hopefully-no-camera-mounted-in-atm dept.

prichardson writes "The New York Times has an article about a way to anonymously transfer cash online (NYT registration required)." The inventor, Carl Amos, believes the target market for his newly-patented 'Aunty IM' ATM machine "..might be teenagers.. [who] do not usually have their own credit cards, they usually have cash and are more than willing to spend it to download music or games", as well as "those who were worried about identity theft on the Internet, or who simply wanted the privacy it provided."

174 of 254 comments (clear)

  1. google linkage by Neophytus · · Score: 4, Informative

    heh. No reg required ;)

  2. Yay by B3ryllium · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Now we can secretly fund the legal defense of mp3ers and linux users ...

    Power to the people! Vivé la transaction!

    1. Re:Yay by happystink · · Score: 1

      FUD! Noone is suing linux users for being linux users!

      --

      sig:
      See the "..for smart people" banners Wired runs here? Look elsewhere guys.

  3. Perfect. by dildatron · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This would be perfect for when you want to buy something without being tracked... but there is still a trail. You could use one of these machines, but if the feds got involved, they could probaqbly find you (from the camera, etc). It would leave some sort of a trail. Still, not bad for buying that fake vagina you always wanted.

    --


    If you had nuts on your chin, would they be chin nuts?
    1. Re:Perfect. by todu · · Score: 1

      Yes. What's there to stop "them" from scanning and storing the serial numbers from each bill you take out from the ATM? If "they" later want to know who where likely to have paid for x, they can compare the bills serial number from both machines.

    2. Re:Perfect. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Fake?!? But the guy at the store said that vagina was REAL!

    3. Re:Perfect. by xThinkx · · Score: 1

      ...What's there to stop "them" from scanning and storing the serial numbers from each bill you take out from the ATM? If "they" later want to know who where likely to have paid for x, they can compare the bills serial number from both machines

      Serial numbers on bills, and bills in general are extremely hard to track due to the nature of cash. Since the serial numbers are only scanned at banks, it is only possible to tell in general where the bill has been. For example, you could tell that somehow a 20 made it from Philly to LA, but you couldn't tell how many "hops" it made, or whether it rode in the back pocket of a trucker the entire time.

      Because of this, it is damn near impossible to prove that person A spent bill X for object Y. Even if person A took the bill out of an ATM, there's nothing to prove that he didn't pay person B for a good or service with it and then Person B spent it.

      --
      Let's get one thing perfectly clear, I did not vote for George W Bush, and I do not endorse what he does or says.
      "
  4. How can I pay you? by Arslan+ibn+Da'ud · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So how would I go about paying someone online? Today I could use
    a credit card or Paypal at someone's web site...how could this be
    done from an ATM? (No, I'm not gonna try to punch in the recipient's
    URL!)

    That's a rather critical detail not mentioned in the article.

    --

    Practice Kind Randomness and Beautiful Acts of Nonsense.

    1. Re:How can I pay you? by dildatron · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It could issue a "temporary credit card" - maybe it could spit out a tempporary card with the number on it, etc, that had the balance of the cash you put in. Basically an anonymous, pre-paid credit card

      . You could then use that number like any other card (visa/mastercard/etc). Jsut a thought. The article didn't really specify.

      --


      If you had nuts on your chin, would they be chin nuts?
    2. Re:How can I pay you? by Kotukunui · · Score: 1

      By the looks of the photo the machine has a built in browser (full screen and keyboard). I think it just does the cash-to-bytes thing when you get somewhere that requires a payment.

    3. Re:How can I pay you? by L.+VeGas · · Score: 1

      Presumably, it will provide something like the disposable calling cards.

      --
      Best Windows Freeware
    4. Re:How can I pay you? by puck71 · · Score: 1

      I just had an idea like this. I thought it would be handy to be able to have a card that went through the credit card systems (i.e, could be used wherever you use a credit card), but wasn't a credit card and wasn't tied to a bank account. It would just be cash. You pay $100 cash and get this "cash credit card" that is worth $100. Then you can pay online with a "credit card" without all the downsides of a "real" credit card. I don't know how this could be implemented, but it would be cool.

    5. Re:How can I pay you? by Jac_no_k · · Score: 5, Informative

      Doesn't American Express have something like this? It's called Private Payments. It gives you a unique number that's lets you obscure your identity.

      Now there's probably a market for teenagers and such. But I'm thinking pre-paid cards will take care of that...

    6. Re:How can I pay you? by dasmegabyte · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, but MasterCard is already doing this -- selling debit mastercards that work like gift certificates. He wouldn't get the patent if that was it. No, I bet it depenses some sort of cryptographic string which is impossible to generate meaningfully, but which will unlock the cash purchase.

      MMM

      --
      Hey freaks: now you're ju
    7. Re:How can I pay you? by blibbleblobble · · Score: 1

      "So how would I go about paying someone online? Today I could use a credit card or Paypal at someone's web site.."

      You do it by publishing your P.O.Box on a website, freenet, invisiblog, or whatever. People can then pay you anonymously by posting cash.

      This gives plenty of options, such as "use this to enable username x" or "to support blog y" or "for general use on project z". It allows you to pay for services such as email accounts, web proxies, etc. without having to trust some online e-tailer who almost certainly doesn't give a yahoo about your privacy, and will give out your IP logs and credit-card details to anyone who asks (police, people pretending to be police, marketers, crackers, friends of the sysadmin...)

      It's not secure, you can't prove receipt, but then that's all a part of anyonymous payments anyway. Posting cash is certainly better worth considering than some hyped web scheme, for when you need to contribute to a distributed project. You can even get receipts, in the form of "value of $x received [date] with the number [long random number] on the packet"

      Plus it works with foreign currency, and costs less than bankers drafts.

    8. Re:How can I pay you? by maxume · · Score: 3, Informative

      The name is a bit silly, but check out Visa Buxx. Visa has several other prepaid options. Check out their website to see.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    9. Re:How can I pay you? by mpthompson · · Score: 1

      I could be mistaken, but to pay by PayPal I believe that you just need the email of the person or business entity you want to send money to -- assuming they have a PayPal account.

      It seems this device simply needs to collect the cash and credit the desired PayPal account with the cash collected. Therefore, with an email address and a transaction id as a comment, this device can convert PayPal into a cash transaction. Not too much punching in of information considering the convenience.

    10. Re:How can I pay you? by ptbarnett · · Score: 2, Informative
      It gives you a unique number that's lets you obscure your identity.

      No, Private Payments simply gives you a temporary American Express card number that expires at the end of the month in which it was issued.

      The charge is still posted under your name and all the usual billing information is required. The amount is debited from your existing account.

      The idea is that you give an on-line merchant a "throw-away" credit card number, without potentially compromising your primary credit card number. It cannot be used after the expiration date.

      Of course, the temporary number is valid until then. So, it doesn't eliminate fraud -- it just puts a time limit on it.

    11. Re:How can I pay you? by jaydeekay · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not really since they are one-time use numbers. So as long as the merchant uses it for the item/service you intended to buy, you're all set.

      Also, it is nice because you can give them the number (as a deposit for example) and then revoke it - though this may be fraud, so use at your own risk :)

    12. Re:How can I pay you? by exhilaration · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, you can use it as many times as you want before it expires. But doing so reduces your ability to track a fraud back to a particular merchant.

    13. Re:How can I pay you? by E_elven · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Dear lord, reading these replies. 'It dispenses a disposable credit card for you.' Morons.

      He's trying to sell it to banks. Ergo, the routing can take many shapes -an easy solution will be a virtual credit card number granted by that bank. Other solutions may well work on existing systems, but something using Visa and MasterCard networks is the most likely option (since they're not slow as hell like wire transfers.)

      As to why this is necessary? Because not everyone has a credit card. Because not everyone has even a bank account. Because everyone doesn't have internet access and don't want to buy stuff online using the library computers. And because PayPal is the only other option.

      'It can be used in money laundering', 'you can fund terrorists with it!'

      At least it doesn't take all your money, rape your family, pillage your domestic animals and burn your house while it's doing it.

      --
      Marxist evolution is just N generations away!
    14. Re:How can I pay you? by MegaHamsterX · · Score: 1

      Amex also had an Internet Card sold at 7-11, it was actually pretty cool.

      In an emergency type situation I had to renew a few domains which belonged to the company I worked for, I charged a card up, renewed them all and gave the card and recipts to accounting for reimbursement.

      I also paid for my EverCrack addiction with one, recurring charges are a bitch to remove from your credit card short of getting a card reissued.

      I noticed these things seemed to disappear after 9/11.

    15. Re:How can I pay you? by Jucius+Maximus · · Score: 2, Interesting
      " I just had an idea like this. I thought it would be handy to be able to have a card that went through the credit card systems (i.e, could be used wherever you use a credit card), but wasn't a credit card and wasn't tied to a bank account. It would just be cash. You pay $100 cash and get this "cash credit card" that is worth $100."

      A company called Mondex tried to implement something like this. My home town was actually a pilot test area and I was using it for about a year back around 1997 or so. The main cards were attached to a bank account and you can withdraw from ATMs from your bank account. But you could also get auxiluary cards that can only be filled up from other cards (via these little interface devices, properly equipped phones, and 'in the future' over the net) and are not attached to a bank account. There is still a phone with the modex slot on the main computer desk at my home.

      The people did not like it because while you were out playing with a little plastic card with a chip, the banks were taking the 'real' money and investing it. Sure, it was perfectly legal to use this money 'twice.' But they desperately tried to hide this fact and convince you that it was the same as cash. It was really the banks' dishonesty that killed it, not the fact that the money was being used twice, and also the fact that it added at least 10s to the transaction for the card to be read and the amount to be processed.

      Now I have heard tales of true debit systems being more common throughout Europe. Maybe some actual Europeans can fill me in here. Supposedly there are systems where you just pay a lump sum and you get a debit card that is the same as cash and you can pay for things in a lot of places with it. Can you use these as one-use credit cards as well?

    16. Re:How can I pay you? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      "Doesn't American Express have something like this? It's called Private Payments. It gives you a unique number that's lets you obscure your identity."

      very nice but..."No cards issued outside of the U.S. are currently eligible for Private Payments; however, if you are a U.S. Cardmember, you can use Private Payments to make purchases at non-U.S. sites or merchants." (from their FAQ).

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    17. Re:How can I pay you? by Nick+Harkin · · Score: 1

      Slashdot ran a story on this back in March, here's the link

    18. Re:How can I pay you? by SpaceJunkie · · Score: 1

      I think that was one concept that is taken for granted in the William Gibson (and others) cyberpunk universe. Anonymous electronic money - without the need for cash.
      You could just pop round an offy and buy a credit disk for a few grand and then use it to pay off a deal. Then as long as money could be transfered from one disk to another (think dreamcast VMU's) - you could pay off who ever you liked.
      Of course - preventing such items being hacked would be a nightmare. It would have to be encrypted - like an encryption code for each dollar, that the reading of which - and transfer of will destroy it. have it in two seperate systems much like the PS2 IOP and EE memory - which make it harder- so if one number falls out of sync with another the whole card is rendered useless.
      Of course the best hackers would still find a way around it if they really wanted to. But then people also forge notes too..

      --
      OrionRobots.co.uk - Robots From sol
    19. Re:How can I pay you? by matt_wilts · · Score: 1

      I was working in the town at that time (I live there now) and I didn't take part in the trial. I seem to recall they were proposing a charge for using the service - what was the point, I thought, when using cash is free?

      If they had perhaps said "we will invest the money in the system to run it and therefore make it free to use" then I might have considered giving it a go.

      Matt

    20. Re:How can I pay you? by puck71 · · Score: 1

      That's not exactly what I have in mind, since that seems to be a RF type card with money "implanted" on it. This is useful in its own right, but I want a pre-paid type card that you use just as you would use a credit card, except its not linked to a bank account or a credit account. Something like a phone card: you go in to a store, pay cash and get the "cash credit card". The balance would be kept track of on a central database (but just by card number, there's no personal info attached), and not on the card itself. Maybe these exist, but I haven't seen exactly what I'm describing.

    21. Re:How can I pay you? by Nick+Harkin · · Score: 1

      Well, it's almost exactly the same, just with the difference of where the data is stored. I guess this allows easier transactions, to people who have a card (via a hook on keyring) but not access to the servers.

    22. Re:How can I pay you? by puck71 · · Score: 1

      True. The only problem with the money being stored on the chip is that places now don't accept it. The reason I like my idea is because the businesses don't have to change anything to accept it. It's just like a credit card to them. I think in the future the smart cards will take over, but for now I'm looking for compatibility mostly.

    23. Re:How can I pay you? by Nick+Harkin · · Score: 1
      Ah, I see where you're coming from, you're after something that works the same, but that they don't need any upgrades to use.

      Agreed, that would be by far the best solution.

  5. Money Launderer's dream by L.+VeGas · · Score: 5, Insightful

    'nuff said

    --
    Best Windows Freeware
    1. Re:Money Launderer's dream by Alien+Being · · Score: 1

      IANAMobster but I don't think the idea of money laundering is to hand it to a bank. If the bills are being tracked, the bank/treasury will pick it up. Don't forget, one end of the transaction is traceable.

    2. Re:Money Launderer's dream by zoloto · · Score: 1

      probably so, but you could cap the limit to 50 bucks or something. enough for the kids to download their music from iTunes w/o a great risk for $$ laundering. at least not too big of a risk.

      just my 0.02c i'll pay you anonymously :)

    3. Re:Money Launderer's dream by L.+VeGas · · Score: 1

      The most common way of laundering money is to create a shell business and over-report sales.

      In other words...

      1. Set up sham software business.
      2. Buy licences from yourself.
      3. PROFIT!

      --
      Best Windows Freeware
    4. Re:Money Launderer's dream by Vellmont · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Money laundering doesn't mean turning counterfeit money into real money, it means turning money earned through illegal activities into "legitimate" income. Like say you make money though selling millions of dollars worth of cocaine, you have to somehow hide the source of that income. You turn dirty money into clean money, thus the laundering part of money laundering.

      This system is simply a way of transfering cash online. I don't see how this would be usefull for money laundering.

      --
      AccountKiller
    5. Re:Money Launderer's dream by FunkSoulBrother · · Score: 1

      you don't see how this would be useful?

      Step #1: Earn $100,000 selling cocaine.

      Step #2: Make 100 anonymous $1,000 purchases to "friends"

      Step #3: "Friends" make legitamate purchases from you on Ebay.

      thus your money is laundered (provided you pay income tax on your ebay sales.)

    6. Re:Money Launderer's dream by L.+VeGas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      OK, I'll show a very concrete way this could be done. Create an online business that sells access to content, like porn. Or perhaps you could have an online casino. Or software. Anything.

      Now typically you would have records of credit card transactions, that could be traced back to the card's owner. With this system, you would have records of transactions that cannot be traced to anyone.

      You could then simply pump a buttload of cash into the system and report legitimate profits.

      --
      Best Windows Freeware
    7. Re:Money Launderer's dream by Bearpaw · · Score: 1
      you don't see how this would be useful?

      Step #1: Earn $100,000 selling cocaine.

      Step #2: Make 100 anonymous $1,000 purchases to "friends"

      Step #3: "Friends" make legitamate purchases from you on Ebay.

      You forgot Step #1a: Spend all day standing at a machine feeding in five thousand $20 bills.

      No, some of your drug customers might conceivably pay with this system -- just like they now pay with cash -- but you'd still have to funnel the accumulated funds through the accounts of legitimate-looking businesses to launder it.

    8. Re:Money Launderer's dream by Some+Dumbass... · · Score: 1

      'nuff said

      I dunno... trying to stick a million dollars' worth of bills (even hundreds) into one of these machines would take an awfully long time. And that assumes that they even take large bills - have you ever seen a vending machine which takes hundreds, or even fifties? More than likely, these ATMs will only be useful for relatively small transactions.

    9. Re:Money Launderer's dream by Vellmont · · Score: 1

      And how is this different than how money laundering is done now with fake businesses? Currency is anonymous too, even more so than an ATM machine which has cameras on it.

      --
      AccountKiller
    10. Re:Money Launderer's dream by L.+VeGas · · Score: 1

      have you ever seen a vending machine which takes hundreds?

      Every day. Come to Vegas, baby.

      I admit, I'm talking out my ass, but money-laundering doesn't typically handle a million bucks per whack. A few thousand, or even 20 - 50 grand maybe.

      Millions are the very rare exception, not the rule.

      --
      Best Windows Freeware
    11. Re:Money Launderer's dream by L.+VeGas · · Score: 1

      It's not any different at all. Problem is, many of these fake storefronts are so obviously fake that they attract attention just by existing. I've been in jewelry stores that have an inventory of a few hundred dollars. This is one of the reasons strip clubs have family ties, it's an efficient way to clean the cash. Problem is, then you actually have to run the business.

      Of course, there's a few side benefits....

      --
      Best Windows Freeware
    12. Re:Money Launderer's dream by eap · · Score: 1
      Now typically you would have records of credit card transactions, that could be traced back to the card's owner. With this system, you would have records of transactions that cannot be traced to anyone.
      What a great idea!

      In fact, let's take it a step further. Eliminate the possibility of being seen shoveling cash into the ATM at night (and the embarassing questions by law enforcement that invariably follow), and just write a bunch of fake receipts for your:

      • restaurant |
      • cleaners |
      • Linux distro company
      and pay the cash directly to yourself!

      Untraceable!

    13. Re:Money Launderer's dream by Tackhead · · Score: 1
      > Step #1: Earn $100,000 selling cocaine.
      > Step #2: Make 100 anonymous $1,000 purchases to "friends"
      > Step #3: "Friends" make legitamate purchases from you on Ebay.
      > thus your money is laundered (provided you pay income tax on your ebay sales.)

      If you pay income tax on your coc^H^H^HeBay sales, so much the better for the IRS. If we can't legalize it, the least we can do is tax it to fund the costs of not legalizing it :)

      Seriously, I can't imagine Joe Mobster using this as a means of laundering $100,000, precisely because of the prohibitive taxes that he'd incur. He's better off financially (and has an easier time of it) "giving" $10,000 to 10 of his friends. The 10 of 'em can have a great night at the nearest casino, partying hard until they all leave with $9,000 each.

      Yes, Joe Mobster's broken a couple more financial reporting laws by doing that, but hey, he's already broken a bunch of laws by getting money he needs to launder in the first place.

    14. Re:Money Launderer's dream by Alien+Being · · Score: 1

      The first two examples you mentioned would be prime targets for investigators on the lookout for laundering and other illegal activities. Even with a more inocuous facade I think you might stand out like sore thumb if you received too much cash thru this system.

    15. Re:Money Launderer's dream by Arker · · Score: 1

      Hmm... I'm trying to see a downside here. ;)

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    16. Re:Money Launderer's dream by Wakkow · · Score: 1

      Just do it a few pennies a day. Just make sure Lumbergh doesn't find out...

    17. Re:Money Launderer's dream by Hard_Code · · Score: 1

      s/2. Buy lincences from yourself./2. Buy "Linux licences" from Corel./g

      --

      It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
    18. Re:Money Launderer's dream by Some+Dumbass... · · Score: 1

      have you ever seen a vending machine which takes hundreds?

      Every day. Come to Vegas, baby.

      Okay, fair enough. :)

      I admit, I'm talking out my ass, but money-laundering doesn't typically handle a million bucks per whack. A few thousand, or even 20 - 50 grand maybe.

      Yeah, but that's still a lot of $100 bills at a time (assuming that these ATMs take hundreds), presumably inserted one at a time. And you just know the machine will spit some of them back out. I'm still not convinced that this is a very practical tool for money laundering. Inserting $1000 in hundreds isn't so bad, but 20K in $20s would be a killer.

  6. Too Much Freedom? by 2starr · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Ok, I'm normally a big proponent of identity freedom on the internet, but I'm having a little trouble justifying this one. I think you need to be able to trace the money trail. I just think there are too many bad uses to justify the few good ones.

    Arguments?

    --

    "Let your heart soar as high as it will. Refuse to be average." - A. W. Tozer

    1. Re:Too Much Freedom? by Lord+Kholdan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ok, I'm normally a big proponent of identity freedom on the internet, but I'm having a little trouble justifying this one. I think you need to be able to trace the money trail. I just think there are too many bad uses to justify the few good ones.

      How about the fact that it's no different from cash?

    2. Re:Too Much Freedom? by 2starr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, no, that's not true. Sure, I can hand cash to someone annoymously but I can't (easily) send cash to someone in -say- Afghanistan. I'm sure it's possible, but you'd really have to work at it.

      --

      "Let your heart soar as high as it will. Refuse to be average." - A. W. Tozer

    3. Re:Too Much Freedom? by jason0000042 · · Score: 1
      Ok, I'm normally a big proponent of identity freedom on the internet, but I'm having a little trouble justifying this one. I think you need to be able to trace the money trail. I just think there are too many bad uses to justify the few good ones.

      How about the fact that it's no different from cash?

      Well we should put thumb print reader smart chips in all bills and coins so we can track when cash changes hands. That will be easier than setting up a net of RFID readers every four square feet all over the planet (including in the air and under the sea) to track cash properly.

      --
      i don't like my old sig.
    4. Re:Too Much Freedom? by evilviper · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I think you need to be able to trace the money trail.

      So you believe in no privacy at all? You believe that nobody should ever be allowed to pay cash at stores? If I go to a store and pay cash, where is the money trail?

      there are too many bad uses to justify the few good ones.

      Please name a few bad uses... The money isn't really anonymous, law enforcement can still trace your payment to a source and destination. I would assume that this guy will be smart and require the companies recieving the money to be authorized, just as credit card companies require...

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    5. Re:Too Much Freedom? by John+Hurliman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Cash sales generally happen in person. The main abuse I see with this system is black market money being moved around without a trail, but this isn't a whole lot different than Western Union.

    6. Re:Too Much Freedom? by Knife_Edge · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There is a money transfer system called hawala that allows two people in different locations with a means of communication, who trust each other absolutely, to transfer money without the aid of the banking system. Lots of people use it to send money from America to the the Far East - mostly because it is cheaper than Western Union, etc. However, I understand it is being cracked down on because terrorists were using it to move funds around. Still, it will be difficult to shut down completely since it only takes two people and a means of communication to operate. Most of the people who use this system today do so because there is no reasonable alternative (financial system is not good in their area), not because they are terrorists.

      I have read that organized crime transfers money from country to country by wiring small amounts (under the amount that must be reported) constantly. Even though there is a paper trail of sorts, it is very hard to sort through. But again, most of the people who wire money are not organized criminals. Should we stop this practice because some of the people are?

      Means of moving illegal money secretively already exist. I think the idea with this system is it could allow people to make online purchases, even if they are from an area of the world that does not have the financial systems and identification systems that we take for granted in the West. I am inclined to think the net effect of this would be good. Many people do not have any sort of identification or formal bank account (as required for a service like paypal, which is apparently unavailable in much of the world), but if they could get to a kiosk with some cash, they might be able to order something - provided someone was willing to ship it to them. This could be a big improvement in the lives of many people. It could also help economic growth, facilitating transactions at greater distances and of greater complexity than was possible before.

      Should we not build any infrastructure because criminals could use it? Criminals can drive on the roads, too, but that does not mean we stop building them. We police them. This system would have to be policed.

    7. Re:Too Much Freedom? by Xerithane · · Score: 1

      Cash sales generally happen in person. The main abuse I see with this system is black market money being moved around without a trail, but this isn't a whole lot different than Western Union.

      Serial numbers, OCR, easy to track. Along with cameras mounted in the ATM you lose more privacy by using this system than the US Postal service.

      --
      Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
    8. Re:Too Much Freedom? by Lord+Kholdan · · Score: 1

      Well, no, that's not true. Sure, I can hand cash to someone annoymously but I can't (easily) send cash to someone in -say- Afghanistan. I'm sure it's possible, but you'd really have to work at it.

      Physical Mail?

    9. Re:Too Much Freedom? by Eminor · · Score: 1

      Ok, I'm normally a big proponent of identity freedom on the internet, but I'm having a little trouble justifying this one. I think you need to be able to trace the money trail. I just think there are too many bad uses to justify the few good ones.

      It's not adding any new loop holes. Cash isn't tracable.

    10. Re:Too Much Freedom? by autopr0n · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, no, that's not true. Sure, I can hand cash to someone anonymously but I can't (easily) send cash to someone in -say- Afghanistan. I'm sure it's possible, but you'd really have to work at it.

      Just stick it in a bloody envelope! My god people are so uncreative these days. (Sure, you risk losing it, but the risk isn't that great. You could also break up the cash into several letters to diffuse the risk of loss)

      --
      autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
    11. Re:Too Much Freedom? by dasmegabyte · · Score: 1

      And I can't imagine it'll easy for someone in, say, Afghanistan, to retreive cash from this service if it's based in the US. It'll be heavily regulated. So as far as that goes, it'd be better than paypal.

      --
      Hey freaks: now you're ju
    12. Re:Too Much Freedom? by JDBrechtel · · Score: 1

      No, you could mail it to them. Or mail them an international money order. Worried that it'll be inspected since it's sent to a suspicious address? Route it to a different country to someone else and have them send it.

    13. Re:Too Much Freedom? by kitty+tape · · Score: 1

      I think that the idea of getting these set up in regions where not everyone has a bank account or credit card is a key one. There was a segment on Morning Edition (NPR) this morning which talked about how many people in Mexico do not have bank accounts (and because of this have a hard time saving money). If I remember correctly, they said that only 23% of the people in Mexico have any kind of bank account. Bank accounts and credit cards are far from ubiquitous globally.

      Of course, there is still the question of whether or not people in these regions have the money to make online purchases, but the possibility of bringing infrastructure is still important.

      --
      ----- "Type theory is like pretzels on crack." -- random friend
    14. Re:Too Much Freedom? by irc.goatse.cx+troll · · Score: 1

      "If I go to a store and pay cash, where is the money trail?"
      In the serial numbers on the money, logged when the atm spit it out (with a picture of you from the camera).

      --
      Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
  7. The market by stratjakt · · Score: 5, Interesting

    PayPal wont accept payment for "adult" related eBusiness now (ie; pornos).

    Whoever steps in to fill that gap make a friggin mint. The frontrunner seems to be CitiBank's C2It, though I know nothing of such services.

    --
    I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    1. Re:The market by nelsonal · · Score: 1

      This is actually a pretty tough market to make money in because of all the charge backs. As far as I know that is the reason Paypal got out of the business, the fraud losses were too high. There are a few banks which have done it from the beginning First Data owns one but I don't remember the name.

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
    2. Re:The market by jbottero · · Score: 2, Funny

      Arn't you the "upper mid-level management" from Corel? See, this is what went wrong at Corel, all the managers are surfing the net for porn!

    3. Re:The market by ShadyG · · Score: 1
      PayPal wont accept payment for "adult" related eBusiness now (ie; pornos). Whoever steps in to fill that gap make a friggin mint.

      Maybe, maybe not. I very much doubt PayPal's decision is based on any kind of moral grounding. It's likely due to the absurdly high rate of chargebacks associated with adult material. Anyone hoping to step in and make a mint from the business had better have a very good way to deal with the tremendous potential losses involved.
      --
      Nerd Rock In Progress
    4. Re:The market by GreggyBUIUC · · Score: 1

      (ie; pornos)

      PayPal no longer will process payments to online casinos as well.

  8. Great!! by DogIsMyCoprocessor · · Score: 4, Funny

    This will allow me to assist my Nigerian friend, Joseph Mbuto, in his attempt to free the $21 million dollar account his uncle once controlled.

    --

    "And this is my boy, Sherman. Speak, Sherman." "Hello." "Good boy."

  9. What can it do? by Kotukunui · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you pay cash for your (legitimate?) music/movie/pr0n download, does the machine have a CD/DVD burner and a disc pops out, or does it have to re-direct the download stream to an e-mail account (thereby identifying the user, damn!).

    Some more details on capability would be cool. Google here I come.

  10. Going to need alot of work by isotope23 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I can see the US government blowing a gasket
    about quick and easy anonymous money transfer...

    --
    Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
    1. Re:Going to need alot of work by zoloto · · Score: 3, Insightful

      correct. and once some dumb criminal discovers he can use it to buy a gun (insert 1,000 $, get the card with amount on it, give to gun seller then go bang-bang) and then uses that gun to say... kill a high political figure (no insinuations there!!!) or popular person etc. BAM! instant ban or regulation.

      it's nice but this, I fear, will go the way of big hair and mullets... unless you live in the south.

    2. Re:Going to need alot of work by Xerithane · · Score: 5, Interesting

      correct. and once some dumb criminal discovers he can use it to buy a gun (insert 1,000 $, get the card with amount on it, give to gun seller then go bang-bang) and then uses that gun to say... kill a high political figure (no insinuations there!!!) or popular person etc. BAM! instant ban or regulation.

      Yes, and since you have the anonymous purchase card you don't have to register the gun or go through the other processes. "Here's my anonymous cash card!" "Right, here's your pistol and ammo." You do know that you have to register to buy a gun, right? You also know you can buy a gun with cash, right?

      Anybody who accepts these cards will accept cash, and you have no benefit over them. For some reason I doubt that most private gun sellers will offer support for these cards.

      --
      Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
    3. Re:Going to need alot of work by tunah · · Score: 2, Funny
      once some dumb criminal discovers he can use it to buy a gun (insert 1,000 $, get the card with amount on it, give to gun seller then go bang-bang) and then uses that gun to say... kill a high political figure (no insinuations there!!!) or popular person etc. BAM! instant ban or regulation.


      But of the money-transfer device, obviously, not guns.

      --
      Free Java games for your phone: Tontie, Sokoban
    4. Re:Going to need alot of work by Sabalon · · Score: 1

      The idea behind this is to have a way of sending cash electronically yourself - kinda like what Western Union does, just without them.

      If you send the money to Joe's Gun Shop, it is the same as if you just walked in with the $1000 and plopped it down...albiet now you don't have to go across town or across the country. The product then gets shipped to you.

      If there is a gun shop that works like this, then the ATF will probably be quite interested. Brady bill? background checks?

      OF course, that is assuming that all crimnials buy their guns legit and you never have this:

      Criminal: I want to buy this .45
      Dealer: Let me run a background check...hmm...says here you are wanted in 5 states for violent crimes...can't see it to you.
      Criminal: Oh well...guess I won't kill that person after all. Do you sell a book on quilting instead?

  11. What is happening to the English language? by Khomar · · Score: 4, Funny

    From the article: "N the 1997" N?! Now even the New York Times is slipping into Net-speak. *sigh* My old high school English teachers must be in agony. So much for the American education system....

    --

    I believe in de-evolution. God made the world perfect, man fell, and its been going downhill ever since!

    1. Re:What is happening to the English language? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      ...even the New York Times is slipping into Net-speak. *sigh*...

      Doesn't "*sigh*" count as net speak? How embarrassing.

    2. Re:What is happening to the English language? by Yankovic · · Score: 2, Informative

      This is really interesting... in the print version, they start the article with the correct "I" rather than "N".

  12. This is old hat in Japan by TokyoJimu · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sorry to disappoint Mr. Amos, but for at least the past twenty years, you have been able to make anonymous cash payments at any bank ATM in Japan.

    You just key in the bank name and account number to transfer to, insert the cash, and it's on its way. The ATM will even make change for you.

    1. Re:This is old hat in Japan by todu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hmm.. How very innovative of the inventor. So an "invention" as obvious as this may exist in Japan for 20 years, and still the US "inventor" gets a US patent? Did the PTO know this while issuing the patent? So prior art is only prior art if it is prior art inside the US?

    2. Re:This is old hat in Japan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Yes, but....

      you can only make these payments within Japan if you are a Japanese citizen.

      He's talking about automating *international* wire transfers of money. The inherent self-limitation and discrimination is enough to disqualify the Japanese system for a patent. Besides, I think you would be hard pressed to find a teller machine that would allow a transfer without some sort of identification. Sure you might be able to find some machine tucked away in some small Hakidao hamlet, but the vast majority of machines require ident. (and you are usually on camera).

    3. Re:This is old hat in Japan by KalvinB · · Score: 1

      "You just key in the bank name and account number to transfer to, insert the cash, and it's on its way"

      What are the implications of putting your bank account number on a web-site as a means to collect payments?

      In other words, what information is critical for getting money OUT of an account vs INTO an account?

      Ben

      --
      Work Safe Porn
    4. Re:This is old hat in Japan by TokyoJimu · · Score: 1
      > What are the implications of putting your bank account
      > number on a web-site as a means to collect payments?

      It is very common in Japan for the bank account number to be listed in an advertisement. This is still the main way that people pay for mail order goods and invoiced services.

      To get the money out, you need to have the passbook for the account and the hanko (seal), or an ATM card and PIN.

    5. Re:This is old hat in Japan by Belly · · Score: 1

      You are incorrect - various bank ATMs here in Japan still allow cash transfers ("genkin furicomi") without an ATM card or anything. Although there are some which don't..depends on the bank and how big the ATM corner is.

    6. Re:This is old hat in Japan by jrumney · · Score: 1
      you can only make these payments within Japan if you are a Japanese citizen.

      Not true. I am not a Japanese citizen, and I have used one of these ATMs to transfer money to someone elses bank account (not anonymously, since I wanted them to know it was me paying the bill, but entering identifying details was optional). I did not even have a bank account in Japan at the time, I just put the cash I wanted to transfer into the machine. This was not some small Hakidao hamlet (whereever that is), it was downtown Kita-Kyushu (pop. 1M).

  13. Funny by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The New York Times has an article about a way to anonymously transfer cash online (NYT registration required)

    Why to I find this sentence funny ?

    So, finally banking can be anonymous (yeah right, in your wildest dreams, but we still need to register with NYT?
    No wait, you can't do do banking with a hotmail account ...

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    1. Re:Funny by ShadyG · · Score: 1
      "The New York Times has an article about a way to anonymously transfer cash online"

      Why do I find this sentence funny?

      Split infinitive?
      --
      Nerd Rock In Progress
  14. Is there an identity verification system? by alen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How does it perform identification to verify that the person picking up the money is the person you paid. I don't really see this serving any use since there already is a cash transfer system. It's called postal money orders.

    1. Re:Is there an identity verification system? by Gherald · · Score: 1

      It's called postal money orders.

      Last I checked a postal order took more than 2 minutes...

      --
      The unofficial /. digest
  15. Already been done. by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 3, Informative

    Good ol' R, S , and A made quite a while back a system to digitize money into extremly long numbers to represent money. Each number would be encoded the bill amount alone. They also proved it would be untrackable and unbreakable.

    They also made into the system a way of determining real-time if any "bill" was being used more than once.

    Wow. Anonymous atm. It's a real shocker if it hasnt already be theorized up to the top.

    boring.

    --
  16. Good Luck by FunkSoulBrother · · Score: 1

    Its already big pain in the ass (for an American)to get some money online to bet on a football game.

    The way they crack down on the gambling industry, you can bet they'd scream "terrorism" and "drugs" and all the other things they have wars on.

    Not to mention the Tax Evasion uses, and we all know that taxes are #1 when it comes to the governments concern.

    1. Re:Good Luck by alen · · Score: 1

      If this thing works over telecommunications circuits then it's illegal to use it for gambling. The law is decades old and not something that was made up for the internet.

  17. Re:ATM machine?! by gantrep · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Yo dizzog, i is gonta go to da ATM machine and put in my PIN number so's i can gets some cash money so's i can go see 2 Fast 2 Furious. Wanna come wit?

  18. Been Done..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    https://213.132.35.90/

    1. Re:Been Done..... by rawkphish · · Score: 1

      is this for real ? anyone else heard of DMT/ALTA ?

    2. Re:Been Done..... by linuxrunner · · Score: 1

      You need to hang out on the freenet more often.

      --
      www.slightlycrewed.com - Because aren't we all?
  19. sounds good by alienhazard · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This sounds like a very good idea to me. Being one of those teens that has money, Its a pain to buy stuff online through my parents. Although I could also see this being used for bad, i.e. kids anonymously buying pr0n, alchohol, or other illegal/immoral things.

    --
    > "I allege that SCO is full of it" -Linus
    1. Re:sounds good by UnknownQ · · Score: 1

      As another teen with money, I would suggest getting a debit card. If your bank is nice and your parents will agree to cosign on it then you should be in luck.
      I can shop at any on-line store that accepts MasterCard (I, for one, welcome our new "master" card masters). The trick is I still gotta talk my parents into driving me to the bank when I have a check to deposit.

      --
      Wherever you go, there you are!
    2. Re:sounds good by Jonah+Hex · · Score: 1

      Well this blows the good old "kids can't buy nasty things on the internet" excuse the online cigarette resellers use. (As seen recently on TechTV's Unscrewed interview with the owner of Freedom Tobacco.)

      Technology really does make all things possible, unfortunately government and most people believe they are safe because "it can't be done now".

      Jonah Hex

      --
      Horror & SciFi Erotic Nudes
    3. Re:sounds good by Jade+E.+2 · · Score: 1
      Being one of those teens that has money...

      Dude, what do you think you're doing? Slashdot trolls aren't supposed to admit they're adolescents! Next thing you know people will start putting honest answers on the polls, and then the whole world will collapse!

    4. Re:sounds good by Idarubicin · · Score: 1
      Although I could also see this being used for bad, i.e. kids anonymously buying pr0n, alchohol, or other illegal/immoral things.

      Yes, it's a good thing that kids don't have access to pornography or alcohol now...

      --
      ~Idarubicin
  20. Amazed no one has mentioned ... by binaryDigit · · Score: 1

    The sticker on the ATM that says "please ignore the camera". Oh and the finger prints you're leaving on the keypad.

    1. Re:Amazed no one has mentioned ... by pherris · · Score: 1

      Maybe this and this would help.

      --
      "And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
  21. Re:This looks like a good way to fund terrorists by alen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The law is that if you transfer $10,000 or more to a financial institution it needs to be reported to the feds. Criminals will need to do a lot of micro transactions to pay their bills.

  22. Useless invention by PincheGab · · Score: 3, Offtopic
    This sounds fine in principle, but the state banking authorities all over the USA are clamping down on "anonymous" funds transfers rather ferociously, specially after Sept 11.

    This is not hearsay or speculation, I work in the financial services industry, and I can tell you that the financial laws are going the other way - less anonymity and higher identification requirements for money wires.

    In other words, this guy will have to keep transactions down a ridiculously low upper limit to avoid ID requirements.

    I have seen people wiring money for very fraudulent puposes, so I don't really share people's feelings that wiring money should be anonymous.

    As for this guy's plans to use the technolgy abroad, he should take into consideration that the USA is requiring other countries to follow USA-like laws and he might have the same issue abroad.

    Again, this is from first-hand experience, not hearsay.

    1. Re:Useless invention by alen · · Score: 1

      The article said that he is marketing this to kids buying junk on ebay I guess. But all the kids that bought DVD's from me paid me by money order if they didn't have a credit card. What use is this invention going to have? You need some form of identification to make sure that the right person gets the money.

    2. Re:Useless invention by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      He has your info sure, and essentially just deposits cash straight into your account. The customer needs no bank account, credit card, PayPal account, etc.

      He just goes to the local box and sticks 20 bucks cash money into a slot, which electronically credits you. He is somewhat anonymous, paying cash (of course, you are shipping to him), you are not.

      People are hyping the word "anonymous" erroneosly here.

    3. Re:Useless invention by Dave2+Wickham · · Score: 1

      Just to nitpick (;)) eBay has a no under-18 policy. I've been buying stuff online sice I was 11 w/ my debit card, but still can't use eBay.

    4. Re:Useless invention by Zebbers · · Score: 1

      please explain the fraudulent purposes

    5. Re:Useless invention by ftobin · · Score: 1

      I have seen people wiring money for very fraudulent puposes, so I don't really share people's feelings that wiring money should be anonymous.

      Do you have problems with people exchanging cash anonymously? If not, please explain how putting this transaction over a wire should make a difference.

    6. Re:Useless invention by PincheGab · · Score: 1
      Do you have problems with people exchanging cash anonymously? If not, please explain how putting this transaction over a wire should make a difference.

      Simple: Exchanging cash requires a physical presence. If you need to send your sales cash to your colombian drug suppliers you have to physically go there (and go through both countries' customs, immigration, and other legal checks on your way), or you can go down to a money wire service and potentially bypass all those checks both countries have. Which would you choose?

    7. Re:Useless invention by ftobin · · Score: 1

      Your example presumes an international cash exchange. What about intranational, where you won't have to go through checks such as customs.

  23. Camera by headbulb · · Score: 1

    ATM's have camera's So if the need arised they could get your face. This is how I invision it to work. You gat a card that has no named attached you put the card in the ATM. You put the cash in the mechine, the atm then puts the money on the card.(that does not have your name on it) So I see it could be a anomynous debit card. Being only able to spend whats on the card. But what banks will support it. I would get something like that. Maybe I should go lookup the patent.

  24. Very useful if properly implemented by cybermint · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I run a couple websites and a large portion of my user base is kids in the range of 14-17. Collecting cash from them has always been a problem. Some would opt to send in cash, but this has problems as well. I can see this becoming very popular if it gets implemented well.

  25. The breakdown of user demographics: by JVert · · Score: 1

    10% paranoid tinfoil hat community.
    15% teenagers buying from ebay.
    60% preteens buying drugs and pr0n.
    15% illegal transfers of hijacked subnets.

    Thank you tinfoil hat freaks. You have made the world safer for us all.

    1. Re:The breakdown of user demographics: by ranolen · · Score: 1

      Did you know that 90% of stats are made up...

    2. Re:The breakdown of user demographics: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You forgot this demographic:

      10% people who have had their credit trashed via identity theft and can no longer get even a debit card.... you know the same people who, as soon as they open weven savings bank account, get hit with legal garnishments by the government and collection agencies. Believe it or not, some people are *forced* to operate on a cash only basis and I'm not just talking about paycheck to paycheck, lower 10% of the economey types.

      Oh and this demo. as well:

      10% illegal aliens. You know... people without SSNs. Oh sure, you say "good thing"; they shouldn't be allowed to use the InterWeb in the USA if their "illegal", but when their cheap labor goes away, you bemoan the fact that all the jobs are going across the boarder/overseas.

      Basically, for every illegitimate excuse you can think of, I can think of 10 legitimate uses.

  26. As a teenager, I can definitely see a use for this by Psyonic · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Obviously this system is not perfect, but as a teenager who has a good deal of cash but no credit card, and doesn't like to go to his parents to buy stuff online, I think I would definitely use this if I thought it was safe. I am security-minded, but the main reason I would use this is convenience, not privacy. However, rather than buying music and games online, like the article suggested, I would probably use it to buy real merchandise (band shirts, etc)

    --
    A man walks into a bar. The bartender says, "What is this, some kind of joke?"
  27. Somethings not right... by fehlschlag · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Although I really support the idea of being anonymous for protective purposes, I don't quite understand how this product helps very much.

    Sure, you don't have the logs of cash coming out of your account (credit, savings, etc), but there is cash being sent somewhere, and that somewhere has to be well-defined for the cash to get there.
    Also, the product, assuming something is bought, has to go somewhere, again a well-defined location, even if it is a mail-drop.

    AFAIK, all wired money transactions are logged in some fashion, and for this to be approved by the government, it would have to be as well. I still don't see how super-beneficial this gimmick might be.

    1. Re:Somethings not right... by LostCluster · · Score: 1

      Anonymity is something this product fails badly at, so that isn't it's main use.

      Think of this as a machine that spits out a "prepaid" credit card on the spot. Somebody who doesn't qualify for a credit card can stick money in, and then get a card number that's valid for online transactions... finally a way for little Jimmy to spend his allowance money at Amazon.com without having to bother his parents.

  28. disposable credit card numbers by fredistheking · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I had my account number stolen after buying computer equipment from small online stores (pricewatch). After having to change my account number I started using disposable credit card numbers from American Express. These numbers can only be used once and expire at the end of the month. Also, if someone were able to crack the Amex system, at least I will be notified. I was not so lucky before. If you are really paranoid, I imagine that you can call and get these numbers over the phone as well.

    1. Re:disposable credit card numbers by Fred+Ferrigno · · Score: 1

      1.) Yes, I am the king, thank you.

      2.) I've bought stuff from online computer stores dozens of times, each time with credit cards, and I've never had a single erroneous charge. Of course, I always make sure to check out the place before hand, and I'm always a bit leery when the price is too good.

      3.) Those AMEX cards are good for a month, which means they have a month to rack up as many charges as they can.

      4.) Your account information was not stolen; you gave it to them. You also give that same information to a pimply-faced teenager earning minimum wage every time you charge to your card in a "normal" store.

      I'm not saying a little paranoia isn't healthy -- obviously I practice it myself -- but to be honest, the best and only truly effective way to protect against credit card theft is to review your bill carefully.

  29. Re:This looks like a good way to fund terrorists by PincheGab · · Score: 4, Informative
    The law is that if you transfer $10,000 or more to a financial institution it needs to be reported to the feds

    It's not even that simple, nor is the threshold that high. There are several levels of reporting requirements and the lowest explicit thresholds are at about $3000 for most states.

    Additionally, funds transfers companies are burdened with detecting "suspicious" transactions, and you have to report those no matter what the amounts are.

    I am not going to spell out how to do this, just suffice it to say that the methods are very sophisticated.

    This guy ain't implementing his invention in the USA (and the non-triangle of terror countries) until he gets some heavy-duty legal compliance checking stuff into his system. The age of anonymous funds transfers is over.

  30. Heh, I'm so funny. by gantrep · · Score: 1

    Also,

    Will these new ATM machines use the HTTP protocol?

  31. Something like that must be done at a global level by gmuslera · · Score: 1
    Not in all countries is easy to get an international credit card that can be used to pay things online. There are requeriments like age, minimum of transactions or salary, maybe not previus debts, and things like that.

    Something that enables to pay directly with cash, no risks involved (like the fear of many of using their credit card number online) and really for everyone (well, with the cash and with that kind of ATMs near :) could do a real boom for online payments (at least, for the things that don't have a phisical good attached, like program registrations, online donations, domain buying and things like that).

  32. Visa Electron and friends by jmaatta · · Score: 1
    "..might be teenagers.. [who] do not usually have their own credit cards, they usually have cash and are more than willing to spend it to download music or games"

    A Visa Electron debit card (and probably some others, I don't know) is currently the best solution for those who just can't get a credit card. It's basically a credit card that takes the money directly from its owner's bank account (if there's anything to take :). This requires a direct connection between the bank and the seller though, so most smaller sites don't support it.

    1. Re:Visa Electron and friends by Dave2+Wickham · · Score: 1

      In England, at least, Switch is pretty big (a debit card system) and accepted virtually everywhere mastercard, etc, are accepted. There's also a version of that for younger people, Solo. I've had a solo card from NatWest since I was 11; it's accepted most places switch is.

  33. Easily Bypassing NYT 'Registration Required' by FsG · · Score: 5, Informative

    1. Click on URL, you're redirected to registration/login page
    2. Go to URL bar, replace "www" with "archive" in the URL, leaving the rest alone, and hit ENTER
    3. The system will bounce you around a few erroneous URLs, before returning you to the homepage
    4. All NYT links will now work without registration, thanks to a special cookie set by the bouncing process

    --
    I made a PHP/MySQL library that prevents SQL injection & makes coding easier!
  34. Re:Hrmmmm, terrorist concerns? by hobbesmaster · · Score: 1

    How do you order something without leaving a delivery address? If you're going to go pick it up yourself, why not pay cash in person?

    And besides, the interstate highway system could be used by terrorists to quickly move people and supplies around. Should we shut down highways because of this use?

  35. David Chaum is the guy we should be watching by TerryAtWork · · Score: 1

    As soon as his patents on his excellent e-cash protocols expire we can get down to business.

    --
    It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
  36. No way in Hell by felonious · · Score: 2, Insightful

    With all of the anti-terrorism tasks in effect there is no way this will happen and/or last simply because it's an anonymous way to move funds. This goes directly against laws being implemented to stop all forms of money laundering, transfering funds with maximum anonimity, and fake store fronts of which to move the money through.

    There's so much more to this but the only way this idea would make it is for it to not be anon but that defeats the purpose right?

    --
    You aren't free to do anything, until you've lost everything.
  37. Huh? by autopr0n · · Score: 2, Funny

    Why not just use the $1000 to buy the gun? What's the point of buying the card?

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
  38. Re:Potential users... by Dave2+Wickham · · Score: 1

    Any reason they don't get their porn from Kazaa now? ;-)

  39. Re:Hrmmmm, terrorist concerns? by chriso11 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Everything in society is not about terrorism, yet it is the overwhelming topic. I want to make and addendum to Godwin's Law:

    Every slashdot discussion will eventually mention terrorism.

    --
    No, I don't trust in god. He'll have to pay up front, like everybody else.
  40. Actually, by chriso11 · · Score: 3, Funny

    The conversation really goes like:

    I'd like a gun and ammo
    Here you go. That'll be $342.22
    Here's my anonymous cash card!
    Right, here's your pistol and ammo.
    Oh - I won't be needing a bag...

    --
    No, I don't trust in god. He'll have to pay up front, like everybody else.
    1. Re:Actually, by Xerithane · · Score: 1

      Have you ever actually bought a gun?

      --
      Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
  41. Many problems this solves are *already* solved... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    by systems like e-gold.com, e-bullion.com, pecunix.com etc.

    These payment systems are worldwide, do not suffer the chargeback problem, and seem to be fine with gambling and adult sites. They are also not linked to any particular national currency so should appeal to more libertarian among us.

    Example: Wanna gamble now with them?

  42. Suuuuuuure... by Duncan3 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Getting a debit card and a checking account is trivial and legal for any 6yr old. That's NOT the target market.

    But it's primary use will be for drug dealers to launder money. For married men(and women) to pay for hookers and strippers. For people to turn petty cash into petty lap dance...

    Big market for those things tho ...

    --
    - Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
  43. where's the anonymity? by forgetmenot · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The slashdot blurb talks about anonymous payments... Lots of comments in this thread talk about anonymous payments whether how it would work or whether the gov't would cry foul, etc...

    A search on the article itself does NOT have the word "anonymous" anywhere in it.

    So... given that the article is very short on implementation details, how does one come to the conclusion there is anything anonymous about it? Because no credit card is involved? Not saying it isn't... but it just seems there's a big jump to conclusions.. unless I'm blind.

    1. Re:where's the anonymity? by alexo · · Score: 1

      Speaking of anonymity.

      Is it possible to make a PayPal payment without the recipient getting the payer's info?

  44. An easy way to implement this would be... by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

    I think a good way for them to implement this would be to allows customers the ability to print out a "Bill", It would have some number on it tying it to the person's purchase. The "Bill" could then be paid at an ATM machine just like many other bills such as utility bills are. After probably a day or two of processing time, when the seller gets confirmation of payment of the bill, the product could be shipped. This may not be as anonymous as other means, but only uses existing infrastructure to process payments. This would make deployment of such a system quite easy, and low risk if it doesn't catch on.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  45. It's a Trap by jazman_777 · · Score: 1

    Don't do it, it's run by the FBI/CIA/NSA!

    --
    Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
  46. C2lt... by heironymouscoward · · Score: 2, Funny

    is OK, but the real winner for the adult industry has got to be HSBC's rival Cl1t system. So much more to the point...

    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature
    1. Re:C2lt... by Sabalon · · Score: 1

      The problem is that everyone always goes right for the Cl1t system...they never look around to see what other options there are first.

      What's wrong with the K1S5 system? Hmm? Why not start off with a nice K1S5 transaction? You don't have to go leaping at the Cl1T system like a bull at the gate.

      Etc, etc...

  47. Two words... by thebigmacd · · Score: 1

    ...drug dealers.
    (or money launderers)
    [or hot items]

    1. Re:Two words... by radja · · Score: 1

      2 words: consumer privacy.

      there's a good reason why I prefer using cash. companies have a habit of entering your address into their DB, and send you shitty catalogs. cash is anonymous, so anonymous money is not a problem.

      --

      No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
      --Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
  48. nothing to do with MONEY and ONLINE are anonymous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    when will you paranoid biased slashdotters stop posting blatantly false headlines. Anonymous money transfer? Yea fucking right, the bank will always know what you've purchased and I'm sure they'll dispense that info to any law enforcement officer that asks for it.

  49. I like it by hey · · Score: 1

    Gosh, everyone is so negative on this.
    Well... I like the idea of anonymous cash transfers.

  50. Nope, can't be material things by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 1

    Suppose your records show your sold twice as many meals for the amount of food you bought as any other restaurant. Or cleaned twice as many clothes for the amount of cleaning material used as any other cleaner.

    Has to be data, content, not anything material. Even then, a simple trace would show how much was actually transferred in the period you claimed.

    --
    Infuriate left and right
  51. It's a step in the right direction. by qtp · · Score: 1

    Although I didn't see any actual mention of anonymity in the article, it's not hard to imagine that this device does create a more private way to do business.

    As for all of the posts about drug dealers, money launderers, adulterers, and terrorists, you're right, those people would use an anonymous method of payment/transfer if it were easily/readily available, but so would political disidents (are they terrorists if they dissagree with you?), persons worried about identity theft, and people like me, who simply resent the governments attempts to count every roll of toilet paper I buy and every book or magazine that I read.

    --
    Read, L
  52. illegal by austad · · Score: 4, Informative

    Unfortunately, this is illegal. I work for one of the companies listed in the article.

    It's against the law. The feds say that all ATM transactions must have positive ID of the cardholder (PIN number, driver's license swipe, etc) As far as electronic money transfers go, there has to be some positive identification on the person sending the money, but curiously from what I can find, not on the person receiving it.

    Nice idea, just not legal here in the US.

    --
    Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
  53. The Reality of Assassination Politics by bastion · · Score: 1

    Does anyone remember Assassination Politics by Jim Bell?

    A few months ago, I had a truly and quite literally "revolutionary" idea, and I jokingly called it "Assassination Politics": I speculated on the question of whether an organization could be set up to legally announce that it would be awarding a cash prize to somebody who correctly "predicted" the death of one of a list of violators of rights, usually either government employees, officeholders, or appointees. It could ask for anonymous contributions from the public, and individuals would be able send those contributions using digital cash.
    I also speculated that using modern methods of public-key encryption and anonymous "digital cash," it would be possible to make such awards in such a way so that nobody knows who is getting awarded the money, only that the award is being given. Even the organization itself would have no information that could help the authorities find the person responsible for the prediction, let alone the one who caused the death.

    Read more

  54. less here than meets the eye by alizard · · Score: 4, Insightful
    This requires that ATMs be retrofitted or custom-built to handle inputs of cash, and that banks be willing to handle cash transfers from individuals to individuals and be willing to accept a far lower ATM reliability level and increased service/maintenance costs at the same time. (i.e. if the cash ID/counting machinery is down, so's the machine)

    The potential profits are too low for the risks involved. Also, there are already ATMs that have been retrofitted to accept cash for the purpose of paying bills for defined (telco, utility) customers. Ever see one?

    There are cheaper and more cost-effective ways to do this than via ATM, I filed a provisional patent app for one years ago.

    --
    Tech Public Policy stuff
  55. Agree by idiotfromia · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am also under 18 and like to buy things off the internet. This hasn't hindered me as much as some. I have a job and a checking account. Many online merchants accept checks now, but I still run the risk of sending a check through the mail. But worse than that is the time. In the instant online world I do not want to wait days for the USPS to get my check across country.

  56. Re:As a teenager, I can definitely see a use for t by sparrow_hawk · · Score: 1

    It's this kind of thing that will really make a concept like the iTunes Music Store fly, since a lot of teens share music, but don't have credit cards to buy it legally online (myself included). I don't think P2P will ever go away, especially since there really are legitimate uses for it -- RedHat ISOs and the like -- but it would certainly make using KaZaA less compelling. I think I would still download songs to test them out, but I'd then spring the buck a song to get whatever I decided I liked.

  57. Anonymity by Vegan+Pagan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    if the feds got involved, they could probaqbly find you (from the camera, etc).

    What's the penalty for wearing a mask in front of the camera?

    1. Re:Anonymity by RFC959 · · Score: 1

      In many places there are laws against wearing a mask in public. They're not usually enforced, obviously, but they do exist, at least in part to give the police an excuse to grab you if they catch you wearing a mask, or to give the prosecutor an extra charge to tack on.

  58. teens today by digtl88 · · Score: 1

    I have been hearing so much about how younger teens are growing up faster than they use to. So I bet a lot of them do have credit/debit cards and checking accounts. So i am sure this will be a target for the new product.

  59. Like phone cards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just like phone cards, I want to go to a 7-11 and pay cash for a Visa or MasterCard card in $100, $250, or $500 denominations. What's so hard about that?

  60. NYT Registration gets us AGAIN! by writermike · · Score: 2, Funny

    "The New York Times has an article about a way to anonymously transfer cash online (NYT registration required)."

    You mean I actually have to register with the NYT to anonymously transfer cash online?!

    WHEN. WILL. IT. STOP?!

    --
    If Nalgene water bottles are outlawed, only outlaws will have Nalgene water bottles.
  61. Try CashX (www.cashx.com) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    These are particularly great if you are near one of the locations where they are physically sold. It's a Visa card for online (and phone) purchases only, with a 2 year expiration. You have to activate it online, but you can do that from any internet cafe, or through trusted proxies. You have to give a physical address, but it can be totally spoofed. An e-mail address is required, but just use one of the non-obvious disposable ones (i.e. NOT Hotmail, Yahoo). You can recharge it by mailing in a money order.

    Be warned, however--if you give a spoofed physical address, you may likely have problems ordering delivered goods to your real physical address (not to mention that such orders obviously compromise your anonymity).

    Also, since it is a Visa card, it is subject to any restrictions Visa might adopt (for gambling sites, for example, although I don't know that they do have such restrictions).

  62. Re:Hrmmmm, terrorist concerns? by superyooser · · Score: 1
    Here's an observation that I've observed:

    Many Slashdot discussions of important, relevant topics will eventually be stifled by an invocation of Godwin's Law, Occam's Razor, or some other conversational black hole when the invoker is unable or unwilling to continue defending his position.

    Everything is not about terrorism, but it's blazingly obvious to me that a machine that could transfer cash internationally, anonymously, and instantaneously would be a huge help to terrorists.

  63. Re:Hrmmmm, terrorist concerns? by ftobin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Everything is not about terrorism, but it's blazingly obvious to me that a machine that could transfer cash internationally, anonymously, and instantaneously would be a huge help to terrorists.

    This is an extremely poor argument. Your argument would apply the same if we did not have privacy laws, and all of a sudden people proposed having privacy. Using the same logic, because privacy laws helps the boogey-man terrorist immensely, we shouldn't implement them.

  64. What about paypal.com? by spike+it · · Score: 1

    Paypal is a service that you can use to pay anyone online. Sign up, and you can send money from a CC or checking account to anyone who has a valid e-mail addy. They also have a Visa card that has great protection services.

    1. Re:What about paypal.com? by Fooknut · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Paypal is not anonymous, so how does it compare to this?. Ahhh, it doesn't.

      It's not about reliable payment methods, it's about anonymous reliable payment methods.

      --
      The price we pay for immortality... is death. Narnia The Great Fall
  65. Old news in Belgium by Potor · · Score: 1

    I can already do this in Belgium. I can pay for anything through my ATM, or through my computer, for that matter. Bank transfers are a normal way of paying for things over here, and ATM allow for such, as does my homebanking software. Most sellers on ebay.be will give you their bank account number, and you just transfer the money. C'est simple! Zo gemakkelijk is dat!

  66. The big question... by oskarfasth · · Score: 1

    I've spent the last five or so years wondering why someone hadn't invented something like this. It was always so frustrating that I could buy a freaking Piper Jet if I bought it cash, but I couldn't even buy stamps online without the consent and cooperation of my folks. And then, two weeks after I finally am old enough to own a Visa, someone does. I bet lots of people at slashdot had the competence to do such a thing; so my question to you are simple. How come noone implemented this awfully simple idea *years* ago?

    --
    "Everyone who believes in telekinesis, raise my hand..." - James Randi
  67. wow by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

    For married men(and women) to pay for hookers and strippers.

    Wow, to encounter PC even in a semi-anonymous, trash-talking online forum! ;)

    Surely you don't really think that there are a statistically significant number of women (and married women, yet) paying for hookers and strippers?

  68. Re:ATM machine?! by MrBlint · · Score: 1

    "Yo" is a perfectly respectable word derived from the Gaelic "oi" (which is pronounced "Yo"). It is a spoken exclamation. The written symbol for exclamation (!) is actually derived from the "i" and the "o" in the word "oi".

    Or so I was told.

    --
    That's very perceptive of you Mr Stapleton and rather unexpected in a G Major
  69. Visa Buxx Re:How can I pay you? by dspyder · · Score: 1

    It's interesting, but not quite good enough. It's really really focused on parents and their children, and they make it really difficult to get signed up and get a card. I believe they charge pretty rediculous monthly or yearly fees too.

    I was hoping they would be more like giftcards or phonecards: easy to pick up, no additional fees, instantly activated, totally anonymous, rechargable or disposable.

    Visa Buxx is really just a regular debit (not even credit really) card backed by kids parents and with a preset spending limit. That and some additional reports online and in your bill.

    --D

  70. Drop caps by yerricde · · Score: 1

    Is there an I-beam looking thing to the left side of the first paragraph? Or is there a broken image? If so, then you are probably dealing with a drop cap.

    --
    Will I retire or break 10K?
  71. Make This a Req. For Political Contributions by sosiosh · · Score: 1

    Maybe this system can become a requirement for political contributions. Give anyone you support any amount of money, or just claim that you did. Anonymous contributions woul take the "money talks" power of individuals away since no politician will know exactly where the money came from. Perhaps to make it more secure, force delivery into even-sized chunks over a period of time... obfuscating particularly large contributions, so that you can't tell who contributed by just seeing how much they did. Perhaps throttle the delivery of the money. This would be awesome for the US political scene.