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The Wifi Slugfest Over Portland's PGE Park
tomwhore writes "Portland's community wireless networking group, Personal Telco Project (PTP), recently knocked one into the ball park with a new WiFi node. The new node covers the area around and inside of Portland's PGE Ballpark. While free internet access would be welcome by most, PGE Park managers are not happy. They recently cut a deal giving Comcast exclusive rights to do up their networking. 'This is our stadium, and we run the communications for it,' said Chris Metz, a PGE Park spokesman. To find out more about the impact of the PTPs latest home run check out this article in the Oregonian and over at the PTP's website." Let's hope the park also puts a Faraday cage around the whole park to ensure radio silence.
Let's hope I can't use sprint PCS's phone in the park!
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
1. Volunteers enable wireless access at ballpark
2. They put out a news released titled, "PGE Park gets free Wi-Fi thanks to Personal Telco and Moonlight Staffing"
3. PGE Park management (understandably) is concerned that the news release implies their participation in this effort, and this might offend a major park sponsor, Comcast.
4. Comcast replies that they don't care. Life goes on.
They call this a "slugfest?" Yeesh...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Their service will be down most of the time, anyhow.
Let's see what the courts say on this one. I would love the courts to say that it was illegal for an outside provider to broadcast network signals onto your property.
Can anyone else see the ramifications of this?
If they can and do block off the free access on their property only, more power to 'em. Otherwise, they can take a hike.
Best Windows Freeware
all this wireless internet business is overrated, so few people take advantage of it, look at the numbers from starbucks or McDs
I know I always take my laptop with me to the ballpark!
'cause I need to surf pr0n out in Section 39. watching the Yankees beat the shit out of Boston gets boring after a while. God bless the Bleacher Creatures!!
Thats the beauty of unliscensed airwaves. Technically Comcast is still doing their networking, it just so happens that another network overlaps theirs... tough luck.
Going out to a ball game is supposed to be fun, not another place to read Slashdot.
Sometimes we just need to do without technology altogether. Pick up a hotdog and enjoy the game, don't worry about your wireless networking. I sure don't.
Sincerely,
Letter
The first step to the FCC stepping in and regulating Wi-Fi has just been taken. Coperate Amerika must ensure it controls the comunication networks.
Str8Dog
using System.Darkside; public
You do that, build your jamming device. We'll have the FCC all over you for that little stunt, as well as the FBI for suspected informational terrorism.
And you'd sure as hell hope that it doesn't interfere with some guy's pacemaker.
>Can anyone else see the ramifications of this?
Actually, I'm guessing that they're upset that anyone with a video camera and a wifi link can broadcast the games live to the internet. Wouldn't that suck for the "you guys didn't buy enough tickets so we're going to blackout the broadcast" crowd.
Why would anyone go to a baseball game just to sit there with a laptop and browse the web? Oh right, this is slashdot, nevermind...
If 60 people at a ballgame are surfing on laptops, one of them will almost certainly take a foul ball right in the face. Here's a tip - pay attention to the game.
"And this is my boy, Sherman. Speak, Sherman." "Hello." "Good boy."
...people who use WiFi on their laptops to access the internet and those who attend baseball games is probably pretty small, no? I mean most of us here couldn't care less about (baseball|football|) games.
All they need is an employee with a Ham radio licence, he could complain to the FCC about interference and they will be at PTP's door with baseball bats.
There is no god
This is great!
I imagine that this is not actually related to comcast, as the article implies, but rather to the fact that portland is currently trying to get a major league team into the stadium.
The reason I think this might be a problem, is that major league teams have been shying away from portland because of its reputation as a place with high taxes and ultra-left wing views. Major league baseball is just another huge corporate entity, and these kinds of tweaks are exactly what they are afraid of. The portland city government, and pge park don't want the perception that they are out of control, as it will negatively impact MLB's view of Portland.
So I say- GO For it free wireless guys! I don't want to see my taxes raised again for a useless baseball team. Especially when unemployment is almost 10% and our taxes are increasing already!
Cuchullain
"If sharing a thing in no way diminishes it, it is not rightly owned if it is not shared." -St. Augustine
Tell it to the FCC. They control the airwaves in your little stadium, not you.
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
and very happy to have PTP around, let me first start out by saying that PGE park is a waste anyways.
they should have never change the name from the civic auditorium to an enron subsidiary that paid less in income taxes than any other oregon resident.
but, that's beside the point. starbucks had to deal with the fact that PTP is near them, and PGE park (god, i hate typing that) need to come to terms as well.
an informal poll, taken at the affected starbucks -- when asked whether they were using the starbucks wireless access point, they replied with twisted faces of disgust, stating that they would never use it, but instead use PTP.
pge park will be the same way.
The poster writes, "They recently cut a deal giving Comcast exclusive rights to do up their networking," when the article clearly states multiple times that Comcast isn't an issue. Comcast is merely a sponsor of the park. The ballpark manager is being too sensitive to the wording of the PTP's press release which could be read to suggest that PGE park management worked with the PTP to set up the wireless access when in fact it is being provided from a location across the street. The park manager is inventing some sort of conflict where none exists. Be sure to read the article before engaging in knee-jerk bashing of Comcast.
"'This is our stadium, and we run the communications for it,' said Chris Metz, a PGE Park... "
What about cell phone communications?
Or palm pilots and the like?
What about communicating to the opposing team that you prefer them (ie, those cheering for the opposition must sit in section 9)?
Now the last example is quite silly, but what is the difference between wireless internet access and cellphone access? Do they have the legal rights to control such?
You mean the same way anyone with a TV tuner and wi-fi link can broadcast live games, without all the professional angles, equipment, and commentary?
Yeah, I would definitely say that this is a major problem.
This really sounds like a publicity stunt to me. Why? Well, think about it. How cost effective is it to provide WiFi access to a site that is used, at best, a few hours a week? Contrast this to airports, bus stations, Starbucks etc. that are occupied a majority of the hours every day. Yup, sounds like a publicity stunt to me.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Sure sounded good, though, no?
"Fuzzy-Seattle-Populist-WiFi-Free-Node in slugfest! versus Big-Greedy-Sports-Cable-Corporate-Luddites."
Wow! I was getting all set for a Thousand-Post-Pile-On before I read the article.
Damn shame, this reality. Always getting in the way of a good story...
When wireless networking is just used at home or at a single company, then there isn't a problem, but when you start getting multiple groups competing for the same areas, then the government needs to step in. The radio waves are public property, even over PGE ballpark.
Mad Software: Rantings on Developing So
Here is the Oreganian article
Wireless Net at PGE Park creates sparks
07/23/03
JEFFREY KOSSEFF
Todd Kimball did not expect to strike out with the management of PGE Park when his business provided free, wireless Internet access to spectators.
But Kimball did not anticipate that the park's staff would think the offering might run afoul of one of the park's major sponsors, Comcast, the region's biggest cable provider.
As it turns out, the arrangement does not vex Comcast, but the park management is squeamish anyway.
Unlike conventional Internet service over phone or cable lines, wireless access, or WiFi, is broadcast through the air, opening the potential for such conflicts.
"This is our stadium, and we run the communications for it," said Chris Metz, a PGE Park spokesman.
Last week, Kimball's business, Moonlight Staffing, began wirelessly transmitting high-speed Internet access from its office across the street from the home field of the Portland Beavers baseball team. At any given time, as many as about 60 people with laptops equipped for WiFi can surf the Web.
The connection is one of 107 "hot spots" donated to the Personal Telco Project, an effort dedicated to creating a free "cloud" of wireless Internet access throughout the Portland area.
But PGE Park's management is not cheering.
Metz said he worries Personal Telco's news release late last week -- entitled "PGE Park gets free Wi-Fi thanks to Personal Telco and Moonlight Staffing" -- implied the park management helped market the service.
"Their service might be the greatest thing since sliced bread. That's beyond the point," Metz said. "I just don't like the way it's been portrayed in the press release without our consent."
Nigel Ballard, the Personal Telco member who issued the release, said the park's staff let him into the stadium last week to test the connection. He doesn't understand why the park's management is so worried.
"We handed a free nice thing in their lap," Ballard said. "They didn't have to spend a penny."
But Comcast, which offers broadband service over its cable television lines, is one of the park's largest sponsors.
"I just don't want to step on anyone's toes," Metz said.
Comcast, however, is not in this ballgame.
Comcast prohibits its customers from distributing the company's Internet services to the public, said Sarah Eder, a Comcast spokeswoman.
But Moonlight Staffing broadcasts a high-speed service from Beaverton-based EasyStreet Online Services, not Comcast.
Comcast has no formal position on Personal Telco, Eder said.
Moonlight's Kimball is surprised that the service stirred up controversy.
"We were doing this to help the community."
Information about Personal Telco is available on the Web at www.personaltelco.net.
Jeffrey Kosseff: 503-294-7605; jeffkosseff at news.oregonian.com
This is kinda like saying "You can only operate our walkie talkies inside our ballpark." Owning the land does not, and should not, give you the exclusive right to say other people can't broadcast their own radio signals from outside the area. WiFi base stations are FCC certified devices and are not specifically limited by where they can (or can't) operate as long as they dont interfere with other devices.
Would the ballpark try to claim that these "rogue" signals are interfering with their own signal? I get 7 wireless connections from my house at any given time, and only 1 is mine. Even if this were to be taken to court, the courts would never be able to say that signals can't overlap.
Slashdot is getting pretty poor recently. More and more like the sensationalist British tabloids. Anyone recommend a better place for my tech news?
dave
www.davidgoodwin.net
Oh, wait. We don't have any professional sports in this state (Well, we have the Blazers, but they hardly count).
Culture is more than commerce
We have become such slaves to the dollar that the very specter of affront to a sponsor or corporate backer is reason enough to go after a free, community-driven service.
This isn't about Comcast; this isn't about PGE Park's management. Rather, they're just placeholders for the larger problem. This is about the slow, gentle, comfortable erosion of American values--not the God, family, and apple pie values of tradition, but independence, community, and the common good values of the human spirit.
This is not liberty. This is not happiness. This is voluntary bondage to the almighty dollar. I'm not one to get all uppity about this kind of thing--I'm generally pretty laissez-faire--but it's sad to see this kind of thing. Why, oh why, does my country care more about a dollar than anything else?
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
Wrigley Field is surrounded by a relatively affluent, high density neighborhood. I am willing to bet you could find an open Wi-Fi node from most spots in the park. Perhaps some of the rooftop bleachers could add a direction antenna and give a little back to the ballpark.
-josh
The headgear will protect him.
I cannot believe some imbecile at a ballpark "doesn't want to step on anybody's toes".. so he's refusing free service.. but anyway. I don't think you can make it illegal to transmit (within whatever 2.4ghz guidelines there are) across, onto or about someone elses property. This would be a severe problem for Directv.. et al. They're broadcasting over everyone's property.. same goes for over air tv or am/fm radio. [Though, I wouldn't put it past congress to pass some law specifically outlawing broadcasting free 802.11 signals onto private property.] I guess the ballpark monkey could officially prohibit customers from using the free 802.11.. that would be in keeping with his intelligence level.
e
Welcome To The Portland Personal Telco Project
We are here to promote and build public wireless networks through community support and education. This site will help you find what you need to know in order to get connected to the Wireless Community Network.
What is Personal Telco Project?
We are a volunteer group of Portlanders who believe this 802.11 (Wi-Fi) technology is both cool and empowering. We started out by turning our own houses and apartments into wireless hot spots, we then set about unwiring public locations such as parks and coffee shops. Currently we have over 100 live nodes, and of course we want to cover Portland with yet more.
Personal Telco Project or PTP has steadily grown over the last two years. We played an important part in Portland winning the most unwired city in America award recently. We're also proud to have helped educate many people as to what this wireless technology is all about, how to set up nodes and configure the equipment.
We hold monthly meetings as well as smaller weekly technical meeting and training days. We welcome participation at any level from everyone in the Portland area. Join our mailing list, ask questions, come to the meetings, put up your own node, its easy, and we're here to help things go smoothly for you.
Personal Telco Project is a Federal Tax Exempt 501c3 and a Oregon Non-profit organization. PTP wants to facilitate partnerships with local businesses and in doing so permit the raising of funds though tax-deductible contributions. Our aim is to build a bigger and better wireless network that everyone can use, free of cost.
At the end of the day we want to use this wireless technology to enable free mobile access to the Internet, to pass on our knowledge to others and to have fun doing it!
obligatory simpsons quote: "I'm rebroadcasting major league baseball with implied oral consent....not express written consent!"
I believe they do. It's their site, they can make the rules. Movie theatres throw people out that use cell phones, and they don't allow people with video cameras in. Their site, their rules. Hell, most ballparks won't even let you bring food or drink into them.
it's an article about a baseball park - "slugfest" is a totally appropriate term - there about 100 years of newspaper subeditors writing headlines with these sorts of punish content - why should electronic media be any different?
This is another example of a new service that is not yet regulated, and the companies that are regulated are getting hot around the collar over it.
The workers laid off by the cotton loom didn't like it either, but see where they are today.
I'm sorry but the morons that run PGE Park are idiots.
And besides, the city of Portland owns the Park and the group that runs the stadium for the city owes them back rent.
In my mind, since they don't own the stadium, they shouldn't be bitching. It's not like this is going to damage thier hold on the lease. They are doing that without any Wi-Fi signals coming across the fence without Comcast's permission.
Better yet; don't sell anything but baseball and snacks; you wankers.
Now fast forward to 2003 with WiFi in ball parks. Imagine not one spotter but 10, or 20, or 30 spotters scattered around the stands all with a laptop and all simultaneously keying in the catcher's signs.
As opposed to what happened to Stallings, I don't think this is cheating. I think anybody who can hit a 90+MPH fast ball deserves to use any means necessary to accomplish this. At least with a WiFi network the visiting team could also place some spotters in the stand.
yeah, now I can finally sue that heavy metal station I've been receiving in my braces since 5th grade....but I don't know what I'd do without my danzig.
pale
If someone opens a node and it extends over the park, the only thing they can do is do an intensive search of everyone coming into the park to make sure they aren't carrying anything that could access the node. I don't think that would go over very well.
Can't this pretty much be done already? Not on wifi, but all the major cell providers have services that give internet access with advertised speeds up to 120kbps. And considering PGE Park is smack dab in the middle of Portland I would have to think it would be able to be accessed from there. Yes, much slower than wifi and you have to buy extra hardware and services but it can still be done. I would think that if these nodes were considered illegal then Verizon had better take down that cell tower providing this service too.
Everybody dies frustrated and sad and that is beautiful
First off, PGE is owned by Enron. Portland wants to buy it, but Enron wants to dissect it and sell the assets to pay off debts, and have rate-payers help with the debt. OK, not exactly, but something like that. Second, nobody wants to own PGE Park. It's not profitable. Our weeklies usually have a least one article a month about some poor, old, rich bastard who can't pay the City of Portland for rent. Third, PGE Park lost power not too long ago. This is the park with Portland General Electric in the name! They can't even keep their own power on! Blocking Wi-Fi? It's probably science fiction to them. I agree with a previous poster, this is no slugfest. This is a bloated 600-pound gorilla complaining about someone else's scent covering their foul odor... BTW, Portland itself kicks major yahoo.
I get most of my news from here. But even better, I found a great techie download site that has LOTS of free utilities and software, though most of it is, eh... pirated.
DirectTv?
See the question becomes whether corporations benefit more from unregulated wi-fi or from regulated wi-fi. Think about how much money all the telecom carriers sunk into 3G cellular network spectrum. That's what you get from regulated airwaves. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that all that money blown on the spectrum was beneficial to corporations.
I suspect that all of these things will get resolved by people coordinating their networks with eachother in an effort to avoid mutually assured destruction. If a McDonalds and a Startbucks are right next to eachother and have wireless, it's not to the advantage of either for their to be interference, etc.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
He should open source his account, and release it under the GPL.
Hey, they got Mo Cheeks as coach.
is more fun to play than watch Baseball. They should be happy.. Maybe the ticket sale will go up.
RTFA.
The courts aren't going to say anything in this case. Nobody's suing anyone. The only reason anyone is upset is because the owners of PGE Ballpark are "squeamish" about the wording of the Personal Telco Project's press release.
This is the biggest non-story since Skynyrd Guitarist Not Sure About War With Iraq
grep -ri 'should work'
Exactly. I could sue everyone for broadcasting radio waves into my house, into my car, and into me.
This is exactly why they do not make reception of radio-waves illegal, merely the decryption of radio wave signals, and broadcast on restricted bands. They make one mistake on this one, the floodgate will be opened.
baseball sucks anyways ..
exactly, I was trying to get at that and karma whore at the same time...can I get a fucking mod up ....anybody....anybody...it failed and we sank deeper into the great depression.
there's a little ferris for ya
If you can't leave your stupid wireless equipped laptop for enough time to enjoy an evening at the park, have a beer and a dog, then I pity you. Not that I think the park has a leg to stand on here, but those on the other side obviously know nothing about what going to the park is all about.
You know what?
This could actually become a very messy issue.
Assuming very low contention, you can videocast over an 802.11b link. Some guy brings in his shiny new Sony VAIO PCG-TR1A with built-in camera and 802.11b, and starts broadcasting the game from his seat in the stadium. (Yeah, it'll suck, but that won't matter, as we shall shortly see.)
This will piss off a number of people:
They've built for themselves a cozy little relationship that doesn't involve competition or, indeed, people thinking for themselves at all (sit down, shut up, buy the $6.50 hot dogs, oh, and enjoy the game). Expect shrill whining from Entrenched Interests the moment they even suspect anything like this might happen.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Um, no.
You can't *declaratively* limit a legal broadcast originating from off your private property from entering it.
You can, of course, devise technical means of preventing it within your property -- for example, jamming cell phone signals at a movie theater, or the hyperbole-laden Faraday's Cage suggestion.
I'm not sure this has been 100% verified legally -- I could see someone *arguing* that they should be entitled to receive cellular calls anywhere they would normally be able to receive them, but not *winning*, however.
I suppose they could try to get the law (or FCC regulations) changed to limit WiFi hotspots, but there's certainly no such limits in place right now.
And, strictly legal issues aside, global acccess with limited denial seems to be the only sensible way to go about it.
The fact that Comcast ponied up sponsorship in exchange for something 'exclusive' is a matter between them and the stadium. They BOTH should have realized that there's no automatic way to guarantee that exclusivity when it can be superseded by forces beyond their control. You could listen to an FM radio station inside the stadium even if they had a 'stadium station' transmitting locally; access to external WiFi concurrent with specifically-provided on-site access is little different, at the end of the day.
It's not QUITE the same, but you can select among multiple available hotspots just like you can tune to different stations. There's a potential conflict if outside and local both want to use the same frequency, but that's orthagonal to the situation here, IMHO.
When hotspot ranges/capacities are very small, it's a whitelist problem -- you select where to HAVE access. With higher ranges and capacities, you start having to look at like a blacklist problem, choosing where to NOT allow access and not worry about everywhere else.
Xentax
You shouldn't verb words.
Does that mean if I am not allowed to use my cell phone if they have a deal with a different cell provider?
Keep the Classic Slashdot.
Yeah - I hate it when the Mariners are playing the Portland Beavers and they don't broadcast the game.
That was pretty funny.
But, we do have the Winter Hawks. That's pretty close to Pro.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Talk about sensationalism. The park has two very legitimate concerns.
1) They don't want the public to think that they are involved with (or, more importantly, responsible for) the service.
2) They don't want to piss off one of their major sponsors.
[sarcasm]Those bastards![/sarcasm]
I agree - don't waste Portland taxpayer $ on a useless baseball team! Go Senators!
sulli
RTFJ.
or you would realize they have no desire to be involved in any of it. They were only bothered by the fact thet the press release sounded like they had a hand in the wireless internet connection offered. This bothered them because they were worried it would offend one of their large sponsers, Comcast.
RTFA before you post or mod please.
Imagine if they gave PacBell or whoever it was exclusive rights to the phone network including pay phones and tried to ban cell phones within their park.
On the other hand, we better start on the offensive or we'll lose all these fights. By we, I mean the scientific community. We need the NSF to take on wifi the way they did the original internet, or else it will all be pay as you go and free nodes will be made illegal.
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
PGE Park doesn't mind having it, and states how they don't mind it as they have no possition on wifi as Comcast isn't in the market. What PGE Park didn't like how PTP stated, "PGE Park gets Wireless Access thanks to PTP". To anyone who isn't in the free wifi 'know', this sounds like a business deal, and I completly side with PTP on this. The wording/catchphrase/marketing chosen for the announcement is not fair, and I can see why PGE Park has said what they did.
.. If anything the title of this slashdot article should be, "Wifi group PTP puts PGE Park in a bad situation with recent announcement."
PTP kinda put words in PGE Parks mouth, and makes it sound like PGE Park was fully involved. Future problems could be people complaining about wifi access to PGE Park, or any other 'internet' issues. Worst case could be someone can't make a stock sell, loses money, sues PGE Park because of the announcement he knew of "PGE Park gets wifi acces thanks to PTP", judge see's it, yells at PTP, case dropped, and PGE Park gets some bad press. It's not fair to PGE Park.
I personally provide free wifi for my neighborhood and joining the local wifi club soon. Since airspace is shared and not easily seperated there's some things you have to be careful of to make sure bad relations arn't formed in this process, and this is one case to be aware of for the future.. I hope PTP is more careful in the future.
my $.02
Oh yeah... I'd sue Direct TV and ClearChannel for broadcasting shit all over my property. And by shit, I mean shit.
.sig wanted: Must be concise, funny, and display my cleverness.
from here, you're allowed 30dBm of transmit power with a 6 dBi antennae (isotropic) for 802.11b. If they're broadcasting more power than that into the stadium, they're breaking the rules. Given the normal range of 802.11, I doubt they can broadcast into the stadium legally, even if they use a directional antennae to improve efficiency.
Vote for Pedro
This is not the first time the PTP has run into a snag trying to offer free net access. Back a while ago there was a slight problem with the then new Starbucks hotposts at the "heart" of the city.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.s sf ?/xml/story.ssf/html_stand
ard.xsl?/base/front_pa ge/102975810817580.xml
08/19/02
JEFFREY KOSSEFF and ERIC HAND
The world's biggest barista and a grass-roots group are squaring off in a wireless game of chicken at Pioneer Courthouse Square.
On one end stands Starbucks, which this week likely will begin marketing a paid service that lets its customers in Portland's living room connect their laptops wirelessly to the Internet. On the other is Personal Telco, a local group of computer hobbyists, which has provided the same service for free in the square since February.
Sure, there's room on the wireless spectrum for peaceful coexistence. But Starbucks, using wireless carrier T-Mobile, is transmitting its signal on the same channel Personal Telco has used for the past six months. Neither has budged.
The result? Both Starbucks customers and Personal Telco members may face slower speeds on the suddenly crowded channel.
The battle illustrates a growing problem with the increasingly popular technology known as wireless fidelity, or "Wi-Fi." Unlike cell phones, it operates on an unlicensed spectrum, so experts expect such disputes will become more common as demand grows.
Like cordless phones and walkie-talkies, nobody can own Wi-Fi's spectrum, and federal regulators have little authority over it, said Dale Hatfield, former chief of the Federal Communications Commission's Office of Engineering and Technology.
"There's no prior claims; there's no squatter's rights; there's nothing like that," said Hatfield, now a telecommunications professor at the University of Colorado at Boulder. "You both have to try to live with each other. I can't imagine why one wouldn't voluntarily move to one of the other channels that has less interference."
Adam Shand can imagine. The founder of Personal Telco says his group was there first and that in similar disputes nationwide, incumbents have successfully retained their wireless channels.
"If we take the stance that we're the little guy and start hopping around, what happens when there are no channels left?" Shand said.
Representatives of Starbucks and T-Mobile owner VoiceStream said they were unaware of any other wireless Internet presence in the square and had no comment on Personal Telco's objection.
Since late 2000, Personal Telco has persuaded individuals and businesses to donate high-speed Internet connections to its cause -- creating a "cloud" of free wireless access over the Portland area. Using specially designed "wireless ethernet" cards, Web surfers within a block or two of the donors' homes or businesses can tap into the signal.
The group has about 70 Internet access points throughout the Portland area. One was donated by WebCriteria, a Web consultancy whose eighth-floor offices overlook Pioneer Courthouse Square.
As many as six people have surfed the Web at the same time in the square using the WebCriteria link, often receiving connections faster than wired broadband connections, said Nigel Ballard, a
Personal Telco member and owner of wireless consultancy joejava.com.
To connect through Personal Telco, users can type a donor's identification number, available on the group's Web site, www.personaltelco.net. Their computers also can search for the Internet connection. And until recently, they've latched onto Personal Telco's signal in Pioneer Courthouse Square.
Now, they can inadvertently connect to the Starbucks paid service.
Although Starbucks and T-Mobile will likely begin marketing the service this week in the square, Shand said the paid service has been operating for a few weeks. Personal Telco users have reported problems.
"The performance of o
Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap! Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap! Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap!
Can you hear me now? SHIT!
Do they have the legal rights to control such?
I very much hope they DO have the right to ban an RF signal that just happens to go through their property.
Because...
By the legal implications of such a decision, I would very much like to sue DTV to stop irradiating my home. And Sprint. And Verizon. And any other company with which I do not have a service contract that finds it simply "convenient" to not need to target their signal only to their users..
And no, I do not wear a tin-foil beanie. I just object to having a signal on my property, through my body, through my electronic equipment, that I neither want nor have the right to access without paying someone for a signal that already exists.
However, I expect the stadium to lose, for the same reason. Winning would set a VERY dangerous precedent to our corporate masters.
Can anyone else see the ramifications of this?
Sure. You'll probably feel like a bozo for days when a dozen or so posters point out that you haven't read the article and that your comment makes no sense whatsoever in the context of the discussion.
But that's just a hunch.
This is a minor league park that I think is even losing the team we have. Portland's trying to get a major league team in, which I'm pretty sure would mean a new stadium.
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
Still waiting...
Nope. Nothing yet.
You people saying "why would you want to bring your laptop to a game" aren't getting the point.
What about WiFi PDAs? Great for sending that quick email or text message. What about WiFi cellphones? In order to replace the evil telecommunications giants, we need an IP connection _everywhere_. That's more important than being able to surf porn on your laptop.
Think future technologies, people!
--D
Tell 'em you'll drop the wi-fi access at the stadium when they drop the computerized umpires!
If someone opens a node and it extends over the park, the only thing they can do is do an intensive search of everyone coming into the park to make sure they aren't carrying anything that could access the node.
Or they could set up 100 machines to saturate the nodes bandwidth with random traffic during ballgames.
Whenever the offence inspires less horror than the punishment, the rigour of penal law is obliged to give way...
Movie theatres throw people out that use cell phones, and they don't allow people with video cameras in.
They throw people out who use them 'badly' as in disturbing others. If I have mine on vibrate and leave the movie to take the call I'm perfectly within my 'rights'(no rants on what a 'right' is in this case please...)
The video camera is banned for obvious reasons, you would be duplicating the service for which they are charging admission.
Yes that's their rule, but wildly different than airwave restrictions.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
'This is our stadium, and we run the communications for it,'
By 'communications' perhaps the spokesman does not mean WiFi at all. At first blush to a geek it sounds like he is objecting to the WiFi, but within the context of the whole article, the term seems consistent with disliking the publication of an unauthorized press release. Re-reading the article, it actually makes more sense that way.
Anybody want a peanut?
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
...it'd make them too much like kuro5hin.org...
Heh I remember a story reported on slashdot a while ago (last year?) about some town in california that wanted to charge property tax for a geostationary satellite in orbit over their town.
I just heard/read somthing (probably here...) concerning radio waves and property. That the courts can't privatize radio waves (ie disallowing people unscrambling broadcast signals) or all the broadcasters could be arrested for trespassing. This is sort of an inverse relationship, but proofs can be made that way...
"My father once told me that respect for the truth comes close to being the basis for all morality." - Muad'Dib
that's exactly what I was thinking of when I wrote that
Couple of clarifications by a portlander here...
1. PGE is a subsidiary of Enron.
2. At $7 a 12oz (domestic) beer, I don't want to know how much they'd charge for Wi-fi access.
3. Fuck Comcast. Truly, 'nuff said.
4. Personal Telco kicks ass, but anyone from PDX and mildly intelligent will tell you that depending on where you sit in the park there are personal routers within range and very few have even weak WEP enabled. I still would love personal telco to step in, but i don't care, as my ethics were lost upon spending the afformentioned $7 on a beer.
-jB
Cause nobody goes to PGE park anyway....
Slightly offtopic, but I don't think Faraday cages block EM-waves, which are what Wi-Fi signals are. They only protect the person inside against electrical discharges. A changing current/magnetic field produces EM-waves, but I don't think a Faraday cage can block the waves. Could be wrong, but that's what I remember from the EM portion of my physics class.
In some ways, you can't even limit a signal's access to your property. The Farraday cage idea is actually illegal.
The FCC takes a very dim view of people cutting out certain frequencies from the public spectrum, and for good reason. If you cut a broadcast off in your property, you've just blackholed everyone that sits downstream (down-cast?) from you. That makes it interference with the public airwaves, and therefore a crime.
Imagine this scenario: two radio stations compete for listeners...one of them buys a house very near the competitors broadcast towers and then black-holes their broadcast to huge sections of the city. Under your argument this would be legal, as the person owning the house doesn't want this signal in their property.
Fully agree. Actually, I'd describe myself as fairly right-wing, but I suspect that many conservatives would agree that there's nothing to leech $$$ out of a city like a Major-League team of anything. Not to mention the antics of such people, who in any other walk of life would be spending their time in Salem Correctional instead of the Rose Garden (see "Portland Trailblazers" for more details).
There's no good reason to have a major-league baseball team in Portland, other than the self-aggrandizement of local politicians like Mayor Katz. If you're a Portlander who likes baseball, check out these guys instead.
There's no sig like this sig anywhere near this sig, so this must be the sig.
Yes. Even in the minors.
"This is our stadium, and we run the communications for it"
No, the FCC regulates radio communications. They have no right under existing law to control the radio transmissions on their property.
Sitting at the ballpark, watching a baseball game, eating apple pie, and looking at another "pie" on the internet all at once.
It is the American thing to do!
They can't prevent reception. Thanks to the DMCA, they can prevent descrambling. See the DSS arrests and the DirectTV vs. Everyone who ever bought a satellite programmer online debate, both featured here.
And property owners can scramble/block waves, as long as they use an FCC approved device, otherwise they can be considered transmitting on privatized bands. In the case of wireless networking, they could use their own Wi-Fi stations to block access to others. I believe that Starbucks was doing this. Buy the strongest transmitter available, and broadcast on all channels and you have essentially hijacked the spectrum, legally. The laws that allow us to have wi-fi are a double-edged sword.
These ungrateful fuckers should be kicked straight out of town.
Who built these stadiums? Who puts up the collateral on their bonds? Who bends over backwards to invite teams to their cities? Who pays the price in terms of economic devastation when these teams leave, often in the middle of the night?
Fuck professional sports teams. This pompous prick acts as though he put all the cash to build his modern coliseum. This is a prime example of corporate welfare.
Whether you are a pinko liberal, archconservative rebublican or LIBERTARIAN (what we should be) - this has to end. No city "needs" a major league baseball team, nfl team or any other team. They destroy the neighborhoods they are dumped into, cause the host city millions of dollars, and then laugh in the face of city historians by selling their landmark's name to the highest bidder, all the while providing minimum wage jobs to people who sell $10 beers.
Its disgusting. Its a waste of tax payer dollars.
And then you have to listen to this pompous prick tell us what services are going to be offered in "
his" park.
Fuck this asshole. He is the embodiement of all the self loathing 40 something assholes who have been the foot on the head of generation x. Well, they are the boot. The sneaker belongs to generation y.
Anyway - not to digress - but these professional sporters suck. Let them pay the city for the right to do business and take the city's name - not vice versa. Let them build their own stadiums, and pay decent wages.
I am sick of seeing my taxes go the rich! Its bad enough the poor get a chunk, but its unforgiveable that rich fucks like steinbrenner should get more public money.
It seems to me from the article that they aren't up in arms against wireless interenet access. More that they're covering their asses against a major sponsor. The press release makes it sound like the park had something to do with arranging the WAP that is run through a competitor to Comcast. So before we start calling names towards their management, remember that the ballpark is just trying to keep out of any lawsuits.
My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
What passes through the stadium air is not in the control of stadium owners, that belongs to the FCC. If they can ban people for using WiFi in the stadium then why not also ban cell phones? After all the stadium doesn't control that airwave either. They could then force everyone to use the expensive pay phones on site to make their calls.
This message was posted with tongue in cheek. Any resemblence to an actual message is purely coincidental and the poster is protected against all repercustions, acusation, and personal attacks.
"Your having a bad day when the voices in your head put you on hold"
2.4 GHz is an unlicensed band and I'm pretty sure that PGE has no rights to their (wireless) airspace. The only thing they could do is install active equipment within the park to block 2.4 GHz signal. But that would probably mess up their own wireless networking. This is just another example of a failing venture trying to sell anything they have and a vendor delving into areas they don't quite understand.
How about using ROT-5? ;)
Diamondbacks bite Rockies
Giants ground Jets
Rockets set Suns
Pirates download Mets
Tigers dethrone Royals
Rockets launch 8-0 run in 4th quarter
Braves hook Marlins
A's sink Mariners
Someone could go there and gamble. No TV delay in the ballpark.
Remember the days when Republicans were the party of fiscal responsibility?
Since there is no MLB team, it doesn't really matter.
For those saying that Portland is trying to get an MLB team, even if they did, it wouldn't go here.
Also, Portland is pretty much out of the running for the Expos.
Tickets for the minor league ball played in PGE park are dirt cheap. Few people I know have even attended a game.
I think low quality video coming out of this stadium would be watched by approximately 0.000 people.
With the previously touted node in Portland's Pioneer Square now down, I can't help but feel that Portland's award by Wired magazine as the "most unwired city" to be undeserved, and the PersonalTelco group's leadership merely touting these press releases to further their own private consultancies.
A Faraday cage only blocks outside signals from receivers located inside of it. The author was joking, as the entire stadium would have to be physically within the cage. There would be no effect whatsoever to anyone outside the cage.
See Faraday Cage on Wikipedia for more details.
Not exactly. Los Angeles County considered charging property tax on certain satillites, as "movable property," because the satellites were owned by companies located in LA County.
Besides, as someone else pointed out, geostationary satellites must orbit "over" the equator.
- - - -
The real Tetsujin 28 is a giant robot.
Sounds fair enough. PGE Park has made it clear that this is not theirs and Comcast is their official network provider, but Comcast realizes that they don't have a leg to stand on at stopping this. For Comcast to stand up and object would just plain be bad for their image, so they're just going to simply let it happen. Let's give a round of applause here for a company that realizes when it's time to not fight something...
[I]I'm not sure this has been 100% verified legally -- I could see someone *arguing* that they should be entitled to receive cellular calls anywhere they would normally be able to receive them, but not *winning*, however.[/I]
They'd win if they just go to the FCC instead of a court. Any device that actively jams celluar-frequency signals is illegal in the USA... that's transmitting on a licensed spectrum without a license to do so. So, the only way to legally create a movie theater that doesn't allow cell phone calls would be to build the building out of thick concrete, creating a passive signal barrier. Of course, other local building laws would likely require there be enough holes in the concrete (a.k.a. doors) that the signal trap will not be pefectly effective...
All the ballpark said was don't imply by this press released that this was authorized by us, and we'd like to remind everyone that our official networking provider is Comcast. Then Comcast followed up by saying that they have no involvement in this either, and in fact Comcast lines can't be used for that purpose (that's okay, these people have always been planning on using another ISP anyway) but that they're going to do nothing to try to stop this.
Afterall, any attempt to block this would be an embarassing failure on Comcast's part. Hard to do it technically, questionable if they can do it legally, and it's an absolutely dumb thing to do from a public relations viewpoint. So, they're not even gonna bother to try, good for them.
>They own the site, but do they own the airwaves?
In a word, NO. In the U.S., Federal law states that the public owns the airwaves and that government's role is to ensure that they are used in the public's interest. Congress is currently in the process of reminding Michael Powell of the F.C.C. of this fact.
>You can, of course, devise technical means of
> preventing it within your property -- for
> example, jamming cell phone signals at
> a movie theater, or the hyperbole-laden
> Faraday's Cage suggestion.
> I'm not sure this has been 100% verified legally
How do you propose to jam these cell phone signals? If you're not blocking them with a faraday cage or similar shield, you're gonna have to transmit some other signal. You're gonna use a radio transmitter that deliberately interferes with cellular signals? Just wait till the FCC gets a hold of you.
Ever read the small print of an FCC certification statement? If your device causes harmful interference, you must fix it. If your malfunctioning TV antenna amplifier (not that uncommon a problem) starts interfering with ham radio, cellphones, or pretty much any licensed spectrum user, you get to fix this.
More commonly, poorly installed utility company power lines - frequently loose connections - can cause interference problems. The utility company must fix that, or face potential fines. As a radio amateur, I've read through the regulations. You are not allowed to interfere.
There have been companies making police speed radar scramblers. Some of them were passive reflectors which were excited by the police gun and would reflect a jamming signal back. No power. They tried to get FCC approval on the basis of the device being harmless when left sitting on its own. The FCC smacked them down and ruled that in the device's intended application, it was interfering. In other words, using a passive jammer without an incoming police radar signal was about the same as a radio transmitter without a battery. Sure, it doesn't do anything bad, but as soon as you start too _use_ it it's bad.
So, forget the jammer. If you get caught, you'll be begging them to just take the thing and leave you a nasty letter. A $10k fine is really unpleaseant.
Willow Bay doesn't work for CNN anymore...
WI-FI (802.11B) is, in fact, unlicensed (and unregulated) spectrum. This is the main reason its popularity is growing so quickly, but will eventually become a problem in just such situations as that described in the article. Hopefully, instead of selling off our last bit of free wavelegths, either the commercial interests will adapt their equipment to use regulated spectrum, or else the government will free up more for the public use.
So, what does that idiot think of my cell phone? Want to buck the FCC there by intentionally jamming the signal Mr. Metz? Why not go for radio and TV broadcasts.
I like the Faraday cage, but a huge discharging tesla coil would be better. When someone's playing baseball, all communications in Portland should fail. They could put it up by the scoreboard so everyone can see that PGE owns everyone else's communications. Don't forget to confiscate pens, pencils, chalk and pointy objects we don't want anyone recording images of the game for later distribution.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
This free internet access could easily be the resource that some aspiring young sports reporter needs to get a leg up on his traditional competition. Just because you can't think of good application of the technology, that doesn't mean there isn't one. Also what you consider perfect enjoyment is not necessarily what others consider perfect enjoyment. Perhaps for some people a little internet connectivity at the ball park creates nirvana for them.
The other side you amazingly call ignorant simply thinks that PGE Stadium is smoking crack to declare themselves the owners of all communications in the stadium. Do they think they can pick and chose which radio stations broadcast into the stadium, what cell phone company you can use? How about what newspaper can send repersentatives, or who can take pictures? They are nuts, but maybe you think they are right?
This place could be for you. You seem to like telling other people how to act and think. Do you like it when other people tell you what you can bring to a ballgame. Maybe you fit right in with the other sheeple in the world who don't mind being told what electronic devices they can use, what beer they can drink, what snaks they can pay through the nose for, what adverts they MUST see and listen to, and all that other money grubbing shit that takes much fun out of going to a ballgame. Do you mind being thought of as a "captive" audience?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
so your saying it illegal for me to build house with steel walls? I think not.
As long as people not on my property, i.e. outside th cage, can get the signal, then there is nothing illegal.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Dear Dumbass,
We do enjoy baseball, we also enjoy being able to pull up player stats while the innings change. We do that so we can enjoy baseball MORE then we could with out them.
We also like to keep a list on the signles that managment throus around to see if we can decode them, or find a pattern from game to game. OTOH, you probably have no understanding of baseball, and think the action only pertians o where the ball is hit.
Sincerly,
Portland, Oregon
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Nice try, dickhead. Who do you think built that stadium, Portland Family Entertainment or the City of Portland? You know who that stadium belongs to? Me. And anybody else paying taxes in the region. Last I checked, PGE paid only $10 in taxes for 2002, so if you're going to try and claim who puts more money into it, I still own more of it than you.
Help us build a better map!
The one time I went to PGE Park for a game, I
did see TV cameras.
This was a regular Beavers game. It was not anything
special.
So, I guess, this means that yes, they do have a
TV contract. It may not be MLB, but it is a TV
contract nevertheless, and I think whoever has it
would be upset by a rouge video camera and 802.11
wifi tv transmission.
Cleara
take a basic RF course. there would be an affect to signal outside the cage of that size. you have to actually ground the cage for it to work. now you see how it affects external signals?
The true implications are that I live across the street from PGE park and IF my friend's laptop can pull a signal from my apt., guess who's gonna invest in a new tranceiver for his workstation?
Deltron 3030 - Virus (music video)
Sounds like the Portland Beavers' stadium is run by the same hall-monitor personalities that tend to populate HR departments. People whose mission in life is to imagine reasons why things shouldn't be allowed to happen, and to go running to the proper authorities to give them ample opportunity to object.
In this case the imagined authority entity that might be offended, Comcast, doesn't care. Even after assurances that they don't care and that everything is fine, hall monitor Metz isn't letting that dampen his spirits.
"I just don't want to step on anyone's toes," Metz said.
Yes Metz, we know you just want to do the right thing. Comcast knows, everybody knows. If WiFi at the stadium turns out to be a problem, we all know that it's Not Your Fault. So please do everybody a favor and shut the fuck up.
I don't know about cell phones, but some early digital television transmitters were found to interfere with some cardiac monitors. I hope someone gets a smart idea pronto because set of devices is easily discarded.
Why do I have this? I don't smoke.
The first Beaver game I went to at PGE park was dog night. Rude people were having their dogs jump all over me. Just wonderful. I can't wait to take my laptop with me there.
:)
It is nice that I will be able to use the wireless network when I'm eating a burrito supreme next to bums at the Taco Bell on Burnside St., however!
If they ever make it so that people can sue others for putting radiowaves through through their property then I'm going to be suing all the cell phone companies, satilite compnaies, etc. I'll let them put their radio waves through my property but only if they give me free access to them. I think I should get some right of way fee. :)
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
You are misinformed on several levels:
1) this is minor league baseball (AAA, the step just below the majors)
2) they probably do have contract for some form of television broadcasting but it's probably only a few games a year
3) most stadiums allow cameras but not broadcast of play by play although if you ASK you'd probably be able to work a deal - this is all about selling tickets and getting people interested in coming to the ballpark.
Hotdogs are probably $3.50.
And DO enjoy the game. Minor league baseball is a hoot - and at the AAA level it's darn good baseball.
Agreed and thanks for speaking up. Portland needs MLB like Vera needs the Gae Bolga:)
_____ "If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." -- Orwell
Wow! Yes when you put it that way, I would love for them to win.
Oh, wait. We don't have any professional sports in this state (Well, we have the Blazers, but they hardly count).
Yes, most of the Blazers player's have seemed very non-professional this last year.
I heard that Portland is in the running to get the Expos, however.
"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys" P. J. O'Rourke
"(Well, we have the Blazers, but they hardly count)."
You're lucky. *We* have the Bengals.
Ah, but that's the whole point: people outside the cage are affected by your cage. A Farraday cage does not just affect signals inside it. It affects all signals attempting to pass through it. So, your cage affects anyone that is downcast to it, which means that you are affecting other's ability to get a signal.
As to whether or not building a house out of steel is illegal, I don't know. Obviously steel rebar in concrete is legal, even though it makes a great cage for certain frequencies. But, if you're intentionally building a cage to keep certain frequencies from propogating, you are breaking the law. Whether the feds come find you or not is their choice.
I have long been a supporter of free wifi. This article (slugfest or not) points out one of the core problems with the paid model. Anywhere you have alot of people and the monopolists want to tax people, you can also put up a free AP. And people will. There is even one guy in SF who is following Starbucks around and putting up accesspoints next to them with a cheaper per hour fee. When you open up "available networks" you see the expensive Starbucks one and the cheaper surf'n sip one. I bet you will see a free on there as well. There is no way to stop these free networks and lots of people motivated to set them up. Power to the people!