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Sluggish WiFi Connections Hurt Everyone

MindNumbingOblivion writes "Wireless technology has revolutionized access to local area networks when one can't always be close to an ethernet jack. But a recent research paper from the French Centre Nationale de la Recherche Scientifique tells how one slow user accessing a hot point can hurt the whole group. Apparently the very nature of CSMA/CD guarantees such anomalies. Here's the story, and here's the release from CNRS (in French)."

232 comments

  1. Taking bets on by groove10 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How long before this becomes an exploit in order to perform a DOS attack on wifi points?

    I say about 1 month, maybe less. Any takers?

    --
    MMORPG fan-boy? Prove your worth
    1. Re:Taking bets on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I say about 1 month, maybe less. Any takers?

      Did you forget what site you're on? The exploit's been around for a month already
    2. Re:Taking bets on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meh, why go through all the hassle of cracking their network?

      If you realy want to fuck with them go by a dozen shitty low grade 900MHz phones or varying brands and turn them all on near the WAP. That way you'll kill the network entirely instead of just having it run at a slower but still very usable speed.

    3. Re:Taking bets on by That_Dan_Guy · · Score: 5, Informative

      There are definetly better ways to perform DOS attacks on a wireless network.

      "Wlan Jack" can send fake disassociation packets, which disconnects clients from an AP. As long as its running, nobody would be able to lock onto an access point.

      I also imagine someone could do something that would just flood noise into the spectrum that would kill the connection better than somebody just hogging it at 1 Mbps.

    4. Re:Taking bets on by AKnightCowboy · · Score: 1
      If you realy want to fuck with them go by a dozen shitty low grade 900MHz phones or varying brands and turn them all on near the WAP. That way you'll kill the network entirely instead of just having it run at a slower but still very usable speed.

      That wouldn't do anything to them. Buy a dozen microwaves or 2.4GHz phones perhaps, but 900MHz isn't anywhere near the 802.11b spectrum.

    5. Re:Taking bets on by child_of_mercy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      so, for example, i could buy a cheap(ish) handheld with wifi, get this program running on it, tape it under a table at a starbucks and deny their access point as long as the batteries held out?

      interesting,

      I really, really hate Starbucks...

      --
      'There is a Light that never goes out.'
    6. Re:Taking bets on by 1u3hr · · Score: 4, Funny
      i could buy a cheap(ish) handheld with wifi... deny their access point as long as the batteries held out?

      Yeah, or you could use a pair of wirecutters and cut their phone line, with less investment ($2) and chance of being busted. Or just throw rocks through their windows.

    7. Re:Taking bets on by Shaklee39 · · Score: 0, Informative

      For anyone who understands how these technologies work, this makes sense. It's one of the compromises that allows connectivity to happen over longer distances. As you might expect, signal degrades as you get furth away from the access point and rather than being unable from far away, it drops down to a lower speed. It just makes sense. Most people understand that wireless (802.11anything) technologies are shared bandwidth. People think "Oh it's 11mbit, that means when the access point is saturated it will be a total of 11mbit." Of course, this is only partly true. If everyone is really close and connecting at 11mbit then it will be 11mbit shared, but if everyone is connecting at 1mbit (far away) then it will 1mbit shared between everyone. This is nothing new, this is just how things work. This is why many access points have the option of only allowing 11mbit and 5mbit connections. This just seems like a bigger problem as peoples connection speeds are further apart in speed. (e.g. An 802.11g user humming along at 55mbit alone will loose approximately half his speed if a 1mbit user starts using half his bandwidth.) Don't expect to get the best of both worlds. People want a large range and high speed, it can't really happen, there are tradeoffs.

    8. Re:Taking bets on by child_of_mercy · · Score: 3, Funny

      less subtle, much quicker to debug.

      --
      'There is a Light that never goes out.'
    9. Re:Taking bets on by Hatta · · Score: 1
      (e.g. An 802.11g user humming along at 55mbit alone will loose approximately half his speed if a 1mbit user starts using half his bandwidth.) Don't expect to get the best of both worlds.

      Why can't we make it so that the fast user gets 54 mbit and the slow user gets one?
      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    10. Re:Taking bets on by miu · · Score: 1
      I really, really hate Starbucks...

      OT, but I have to ask.

      Why? In some parts of the country it is the only place that serves decent coffee. I know several girls who went through HS and college working at Starbucks for better money than they could make elsewhere.

      --

      [Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
    11. Re:Taking bets on by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 4, Funny

      While tempting, those are obvious failures, with simple remedies. Running wlan jack at a Starbuck's would provide endless entertainment while being difficult to diagnose. The looks on the faces of those richers while they reboot their laptops trying to fix the problem...priceless.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    12. Re:Taking bets on by child_of_mercy · · Score: 3, Informative

      In the american context they might not be so vile,

      In the Australian context where we already have a thriving independent cafe culture, Starbucks is offering an inferior product and using marketting size and brand recognition to crush smaller players (plus wireless access).

      If their coffee was better than the alternatives I wouldn't get so riled up,

      --
      'There is a Light that never goes out.'
    13. Re:Taking bets on by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      WiFi's already easy to DOS... just put a bunch of 2.4 GHz spread-spectrim phones in the neighborhood and start yakking...

    14. Re:Taking bets on by miu · · Score: 1

      That makes a bit more sense. Sounds kind of like the pacific northwest portion of the US - there are tons on cool little cafes with entertainment, cool people, and good coffee. Now that I'm in a yuppie hell thousands of miles from good coffee Starbucks is as good as it gets, but when I'm in the NW I go to real coffee shops despite the Starbucks on every corner.

      --

      [Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
    15. Re:Taking bets on by IM6100 · · Score: 1

      You clearly don't understand the merits of a cool hack.

      Rocks are crude. Having a little box with a button on it that makes the suits all groan at once in a coffeeshop... that's a cool hack.

      --
      A Good Intro to NetBS
    16. Re:Taking bets on by IM6100 · · Score: 1

      The cool thing is, you're completely within your legal rights to use the cordless phone, too. There's no special privledge for WiFi operators. It's public spectra.

      --
      A Good Intro to NetBS
    17. Re:Taking bets on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You call that nasty shit, "decent?!"

    18. Re:Taking bets on by yomegaman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If people are going to Starbucks they must like it, they don't need your permission and they are perfectly capable of making up their own minds. Who are you to tell others what kind of coffee they should drink?

      --
      ...wearing a skin-tight topless leather jumpsuit, with cutaway buttocks and transparent crotch panel.
    19. Re:Taking bets on by child_of_mercy · · Score: 1

      if not for the predatory nature of large businesses when they share space with small ones I'd agree with you completely.

      --
      'There is a Light that never goes out.'
    20. Re:Taking bets on by miu · · Score: 1
      You call that nasty shit, "decent?!"

      Took me a while to get used to Starbucks, but now I'm okay with it. So yeah, I call it decent.

      --

      [Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
    21. Re:Taking bets on by gooru · · Score: 1

      One of the best DOS attacks I've seen is sniffing out MAC addresses and setting your wireless card to that address and trying to connect to the network at the same time. This essentially prevents the other person from ever connecting. There was a great demonstration of this and other wireless vulnerabilities at a network security conference hosted at MIT a year ago.

    22. Re:Taking bets on by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      Having a little box with a button on it that makes the suits all groan at once in a coffeeshop... that's a cool hack.

      Yes, but taping the box under a table and leaving it there permanently isn't. Especially since it'll probably get you sent to Camp X-ray.

    23. Re:Taking bets on by packeteer · · Score: 1

      The city i live in has an ordanence against chain resturants. I live right near Seattle on an island which has a history of putting up a fight against chains. McDonalds was able to get its way in but nothing since then has been able to untill now. Starbucks is finally moving into a safeway location here after many failed attempts. The local cafe's serve much better coffee but i am afraid that Starbucks is going to steal away many customers becuase of its conveniance. I always enjoyed not seeing a Starbucks here like i do every time i go to Seattle and now i know if one is here i doubt i will find even a small city that doesn't in the next few years.

      --
      unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
    24. Re:Taking bets on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's my reason:

      gen tri fi cation The restoration and upgrading of deteriorated urban property by middle-class or affluent people, often resulting in displacement of lower-income people.

      All the local coffee shops (I'm Canadian, so anything besides Tim Hortons and Second Cup is considered local) in my neighborhood, as well as the other cheap hangouts, are being squeezed out by Starbucks. As soon as one popped up, other local places started becoming big name boxes themselves.

      I live in the city of Montreal, where there was already plenty of coffee shops, and Starbucks still had the nerve of opening 17 shops. That's 17 more places where profit is funneled to the USA.

    25. Re:Taking bets on by Library+Spoff · · Score: 1

      you're gonna smash the state aren't you! you little pinko minx!

      --
      Acid House saves Souls
    26. Re:Taking bets on by FesterDaFelcher · · Score: 0

      Did you just use the word "richer"?

      --
      My user number is prime. Is yours?
    27. Re:Taking bets on by Xrkun · · Score: 1

      Actually with the impending Verizon Strike, (God I hope that doesn't happen) if you were to use wire cutters and cut enough of the service line from the phone company, you could render them useless for a while. Think about it. A call goes into starbucks tech support. A ticket is generated. A couple hours later a tech calls the phone company and gives circuit IDs and problem. Because of the strike it takes a week for a phone tech to get to the site. He sees that they need to run a new service line. (4, 12, or 25 pair. whatever they need) He then leaves because he is the phone company and heaven forbid they actually do anything right away. He appends on the ticket that they need a new cable run. A couple weeks later a tech goes out and runs the new line and restores the service. Total down time = 3 weeks maybe more.

    28. Re:Taking bets on by Urkki · · Score: 1

      That's one of the dark sides of capitalism... It's hard (not impossible, but hard) to have both good independent coffee shops and unchecked raw competition. In restaurants it seems work mostly (you have McDonalds and you have real restaurants), but small independent coffee shops often seem to fall just below the threshold of profitability when Starbucks et co arrive into town. I guess it might be because there's much more variety in foods than in coffees.

    29. Re:Taking bets on by dstutz · · Score: 1

      The microwave in my apartment ***completely*** jams our wireless. OTOH, we have 2 2.4Ghz cordless phones and they do NOTHING to it.

    30. Re:Taking bets on by Onanismous+Coward · · Score: 1

      No, it's not that they like the coffee there, it sucks and anybody who tasted real coffee can understand that. The reason is that most people are sheep, just follow where other idiots are so that they look "so cool". Wow. Drinking piss and happy with that, way to go guys ! LOL

    31. Re:Taking bets on by IM6100 · · Score: 1

      Taping the box under a table to interfere with the network communications of a bunch of coffeehouse dilletantes? Naaaw...

      --
      A Good Intro to NetBS
    32. Re:Taking bets on by leifm · · Score: 1

      Yes, sometimes I understand how suicide bombers must feel, and oddly it's always when I am in a Starbucks.

      --

      "Windows Me offers tremendous reliability and stability improvements..." -- Paul Thurott
    33. Re:Taking bets on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Starbucks is offering an inferior product and using marketting size and brand recognition to crush smaller players

      In other words, you think Aussies are stupid and will flock to a heavily-advertised place rather than to the better places?

    34. Re:Taking bets on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      small independent coffee shops often seem to fall just below the threshold of profitability when Starbucks et co arrive

      That's because people choose to go to the Starbucks.

      Think about that.

      People CHOOSE to go to Starbucks.

      Why?

      Either they like the product better or the like the price better.

      So, if Starbucks is offering better product and/or better prices, it will drive other coffee houses out of business.

      That's capitalism.

    35. Re:Taking bets on by Urkki · · Score: 2, Interesting
      "Either they like the product better or the like the price better.".

      You forgot a few options:

      ...or Starbucks can throw more money into marketing than the independent shop makes in a year, so they can make people think they are cool, and get higher price for inferior product (or at least for inferior coffee, if you consider the 'cool' factor as part of the product).

      ...or they can work at loss longer than the small shop. Say, there's enough customers for 2 coffee shops in a town. In comes Starbucks, and all 3 now make a loss. At least one of them is forced to close because they run out of money. They don't need to be better or anything, they just need to grab like 20% of the marketshare in the town, and soon they get 50%. In comes other big coffee shop chain, and the last of the original shops goes. Now you Have Starbucks and Robert's (or whatever). Hooray the free market, hooray the choice!

      So to sum these two together:
      ...or they have more money...

      "Better product" doesn't need to have anything to do with it. Capitalism doesn't mean that, it means that big capital has really huge advantage over small capital. Maybe 100 or 50 years ago capitalism and free market were about the same thing, but not any more, the big are just too big in almost any area. Price dumping, frivolous lawsuits, hostile takeovers, you name it, it's all too easy when you have enough money and lawyers.

      Back to topic: Then again, better support your local independent coffee shop by *going there* and taking your friends with you, instead of hampering Starbuck's WLAN. Unless of course they've already driven the small one out of business, then go ahead. It may not drive them out of business, but it can make you feel better ;)

    36. Re:Taking bets on by Fishstick · · Score: 1

      Well, they managed to push out a independent coffee store here where I live (Chicago burb).

      There was a cool little shop that had great coffee, great service and a nice little lounge. Starbucks came in and set up a location in Dominicks at the other end of the little shopping center. Within a month, the other shop was gone.

      Was it because people preferred the starbucks coffee and the other shop lost customers? no The shop had just as much business as before.

      Word is that Starbucks pressured the property management office to not renew the coffee shop's lease as part of the deal to set up shop next to Dominicks.

      --

      There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
      Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.

    37. Re:Taking bets on by child_of_mercy · · Score: 1

      Some of us sadly are,

      also the exchange students, diplomatic community, international visitors, anyone who's new to town and doesn't know which cafe to go to but knows Starbucks is "safe"

      same reason i end up eating breakfast at Macdonalds when I'm in tokyo.

      Plus as others have mentioned big boys can rnu at a loss for a long time until they drive the competition out of the market.

      most cafes can run at a loss anything from 1 week to a couple of months.

      --
      'There is a Light that never goes out.'
    38. Re:Taking bets on by mat+catastrophe · · Score: 1

      No. It's consumerism. Capitalism says something about better products and services rising to the top. Starbucks ain't got it.

      What Starbucks does have is shitty coffee. Overroasted, nasty, burnt up coffee. That, and several layers of middle management straight from the ranks of Taco Bell and Burger King. Which is why many of the comapany's earliest employees left years ago. They realized that quality was being sacrificed in the name of profit and logo.

      The proliferation of Starbucks has less to do with good coffee than it does with consumerism and marketing. Now, you think about whether or not you believe in your heart of hearts that people are not sheep before replying to this (offtopic) post.

      --
      sig not found
    39. Re:Taking bets on by stephanruby · · Score: 1
      In the Australian context where we already have a thriving independent cafe culture, Starbucks is offering an inferior product and using marketting size and brand recognition to crush smaller players (plus wireless access).

      How do you know it's an inferior product? Do you even know what the product is? To me, Starbucks sells me an environment where I can study, plug in my laptop, and/or meet people for the price of a cup of coffee. To others, Starbucks means decent wages and benefits for their workers. To some, Starbucks means somekind of Yuppy status symbol for their small ego. To others, Starbucks means an evil corporation taking over the world. And to others still, it means something entirely different.

      Who's to say who's right and who's wrong? You are. No I don't think so. Even if I am making a "wrong" decision by going to Starbucks, it's my decision. Better my wrong decision than your right decision.

      In any case, I don't think you have anything to worry about. I live in a College town in the US. We have 20+ independent coffee shops, 2 Starbucks, and 1 Tullys. It seems Tullys and Starbucks only took over the coffee shops with the worst environments. I don't think they were willing to pay for the full market value of the coffee shops that already had their shit together.

    40. Re:Taking bets on by child_of_mercy · · Score: 1

      you'd prefer we lived in a value free zone where no one makes any judgments?

      go drink your swill and support the corporate goliath, I'm not stopping you.

      If there's no better alternative I suppose I'll end up there myself.

      But make your own judgments instead of being offended, not by the subtance of others judgements, but that they make them at all.

      --
      'There is a Light that never goes out.'
    41. Re:Taking bets on by stephanruby · · Score: 1
      "you'd prefer we lived in a value free zone where no one makes any judgments?"

      No, I prefer to live in a world where each individual makes his/her own judgement.

      "But make your own judgments instead of being offended, not by the subtance of others judgements, but that they make them at all. "

      I am not offended. I am just worried that some of you would be willing to take away my own individual right to chose. Not that you all think that way. If you don't, then my apologies, my message wasn't directed at you.

    42. Re:Taking bets on by Astin · · Score: 1

      Because it's not decent coffee? Every Starbucks I've been to, every time, has been an awful experience. From an inch of sludge in the bottom of a hot chocolate, to coffee that tastes like it's been poured over charcoal - I have yet to understand how even someone who doesn't know what good coffee tastes like can think Starbucks offers a decent product.

      Every once in awhile I try again, because everyone at my work seems to drink the crap. I think "maybe I've just had bad experiences" , and every time I end up tossing whatever I just overpaid for into the trash. Hell, I've had store-bought vacuum-sealed freezer coffee that tastes better than what they pass off. The fact that the world at large seems to be sheep to marketing and popularity is the only explanation I can come up with as to its popularity. That, or not too many people have actually had fresh-roasted coffee from quality beans.

      Then again, I've been told it tastes better in Seattle than it does in Toronto.

      --
      - In hell, treason is the work of angels.
    43. Re:Taking bets on by Leonig+Mig · · Score: 1

      starbucks uses it's financial scale to stifle the competition by cutting costs, and then milks the ensuing monopoly. not what you'd call unchecked raw competition, although make a good mocha.

    44. Re:Taking bets on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shit, am I glad you shared all that with us. Maybe for your next fascinating update you could describe how the toilet paper in your local cafe is better on the whole than in Starbucks. Or perhaps some other piece of mental detritus that no-one in this galaxy gives a flying fuck about.

    45. Re:Taking bets on by packeteer · · Score: 1

      You decided to read it... and to make it worse you flamed me about it. Why would anyone want to read your flames if they dont want to read what i said?

      --
      unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
  2. doesn't hurt me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    maybe it only hurts other people using wifi?

  3. True? Even less reason to share. by Thinkit3 · · Score: 0

    You already may be liable for illicit activity, and now others can even slow you down?

    --
    -Libertarian secular transhumanist
  4. I foresee lynchings by Faust7 · · Score: 4, Funny

    "What the -- we're down to 1 Mbps!"
    "There he is! Get him!"

    1. Re:I foresee lynchings by spamchang · · Score: 1

      probably running kazaa too. not a bug, just an RIAA-approved feature.

  5. Yeah but so does.... by BWJones · · Score: 5, Funny

    Sluggish WiFi Connections Hurt Everyone

    Typing le courrier electronique or "courrier" instead of email also slows everyone down.

    --
    Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    1. Re:Yeah but so does.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this guy was trying to be funny, not offtopic. Mod em up.

    2. Re:Yeah but so does.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oui

    3. Re:Yeah but so does.... by BWJones · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think this guy was trying to be funny, not offtopic. Mod em up.

      Thank you! The humor was playing off the French origins of the referenced article and was based upon the recent story of the French government banning the use of the term "email" in favor of "courriel". So....you...see......the humor...... references........Oh, if I have to explain it, I guess it's not that funny.

      By the way, this should in no way be considered Francophobic. Vive la France! (especially the cuisine and the wine). :-]

      --
      Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    4. Re:Yeah but so does.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Vive la France! (especially the cuisine and the wine).

      and the babes! (when they do shave)

    5. Re:Yeah but so does.... by LeoDV · · Score: 1

      I'd also like to mention the word is spelled 'courier', both in French and English. One too many r in thar...

    6. Re:Yeah but so does.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No way. Check your dictionnarry :-)

    7. Re:Yeah but so does.... by anpe · · Score: 1

      Check by yourself.

    8. Re:Yeah but so does.... by BWJones · · Score: 1

      I'd also like to mention the word is spelled 'courier', both in French and English. One too many r in thar...

      Non. En Francais......it is courrier. With 2 r's

      --
      Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    9. Re:Yeah but so does.... by Anonym1ty · · Score: 1

      Yes the world loves the wining industry of France

      I'm not Francophobic either

  6. Now we just need some way to kick slow users off by Qzukk · · Score: 5, Funny

    It could even have a message that would pop up reading:

    You are the slowest link. Goodbye!

    --
    If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  7. I could have had first post, but nooo... by miguel_at_menino.com · · Score: 5, Funny


    I could have had first post, but unfortunately, another user on this hotspot has caused the network to slow down for some reason.

    1. Re:I could have had first post, but nooo... by ngyahloon · · Score: 1

      No man, I'm slower than you. I'm using Dial-up :p Not!

      --
      Carpe Diem: Seize The Day!
  8. There are solutions by That_Dan_Guy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If you have an 11b AP with a bunch of PCs with 11 meg cards and some kind of 2 meg hand held device then the 2 meg device is going to hog the connection until its done.

    A solution would be to leave the 802.11b AP inplace and servicing the older 2 meg devices and put an 11a or 11g AP in next to it to service the faster devices. Alternitively you might be able to put the slower devices on channel 1 and put the faster one on 6 and 11 (they have to be 5 apart to avoid overlap, and in the US you only have a total of 11 unregulated channels)

    Wireless is different than wired communication. People are just going to ahve to get used to it. More stuff to learn, more rules to follow, more work for people like me.

    Its a good thing- especially in this economy.

    1. Re:There are solutions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Those with 802.11b cards that handle 11Mbps should not complain too loudly about those that connect at only 1Mbps. The 11Mbps connections slow faster wireless networks down to their speed.

      802.11g is supposed to be both 54Mbps and backwards compatible to 802.11b. From my own experience with 802.11g, if there is even one person using an 11Mbps connection, the rest of the wireless nodes also slow down.

      Just like driving on a one lane country highway behind a slow car doing only 11 mph in a 54 mph zone.

    2. Re:There are solutions by peripatetic_bum · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I think this is a neat way to look at the situation, Im sure "they" are working on outsourcing you job to india.

      What kind of network has to be hands on to ensure that it cant be moved overseas?

      --

      Sigs are dangerous coy things

    3. Re:There are solutions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just like driving on a one lane country highway behind a slow car doing only 11 mph in a 54 mph zone. ...or driving on a four lane freeway in Silicon Valley, where there's a chinaman in every lane going 55mph.

    4. Re:There are solutions by heli0 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yep, check this out: Best Wi-Fi Ever: 802.11g.

      Of three 802.11g AP's they tested, bandwidth was reduced by 15-50% for the entire wireless network when a single 802.11b card was present. It is also notable that WEP reduces bandwidth by ~30%.

      --
      Whenever the offence inspires less horror than the punishment, the rigour of penal law is obliged to give way...
    5. Re:There are solutions by aschlemm · · Score: 1

      If someone wants to support 802.11g then they could always configure an 802.11g AP so it's not dual mode and only supports "g" mode. That would keep the "b" users out. Also interms of signal strength for a larger area multiple APs can be put in place so everyone is withing a hotspot is relatively close to an access point. I'm assuming that an 802.11 client will tend to use the AP that it receives the strongest signal from.

    6. Re:There are solutions by Ex-MislTech · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Anyone know if you can implement QoS and lock devices to a
      certain speed ???

      I do not know if any access points come with this feature,
      maybe the high $$$ cisco does, I have not checked .

      Peace,
      Ex-MislTech

      --
      google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
    7. Re:There are solutions by Anonym1ty · · Score: 1
      Just like driving on a one lane country highway behind a slow car doing only 11 mph in a 54 mph zone.

      The speed limit must have been originally posted in metric or something

    8. Re:There are solutions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF? If you have a road sign that says 54 mph,

      Where do you live, I'm coming to get it!

    9. Re:There are solutions by That_Dan_Guy · · Score: 1

      Yes, You can lock devices and cards to certain speeds. HOWEVER, this will likely limit your effective coverage/range. The further away you are from the AP the more likely you have to communicate at a slower rate to maintain a high reliability delivery rate.

  9. Obligatory RIAA joke by JessLeah · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Well, serves you right for running a wireless hot-spot. You know those things are nothing more than anonymous leeching posts for music stealers anyhow." ;)

  10. WiFi doesn't use CSMA/CD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Ethernet uses CSMA/CD. 802.11b uses CSMA/CA (collision avoidance). After all, not every node in a WiFi network can see or hear ther nodes, so they may not be able to detect collisions (but your receiving node might).

    Thus, each node must try to avoid causing the collision in the first place - hence such techniques as RTS/CTS protocol...

    1. Re:WiFi doesn't use CSMA/CD by MindNumbingOblivion · · Score: 1

      Sorry, my fault...I missummarized.

      --
      #define CLUE 0
    2. Re:WiFi doesn't use CSMA/CD by aXis100 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Unfortunately, RTS/CTS is almost worthless in a situation that requires it - when you've got hidden nodes, the RTS mechanism can just as easily cause collisions.

      The users of WAFreeNet (Perth, Australia) have just released some open source software (frottle) to combat this. Essentially it provides a polled/token operation at the IP layer, virtually eliminating collisions. This is a similar application to WiCCP, and we've been helping/competeing with the WiCCP developers. The other alternative is Karlnet Turbocell - expensive proprietarty software, firmware and hardware, with poor linux support.

      I cant post any url's now - the websites wouldnt appreciate the slashdotting. For those of you than can find the sites for yourself, it may be well worth your time.

    3. Re:WiFi doesn't use CSMA/CD by Zarquon · · Score: 1

      When I first read your post I thought it was another token-ring implementation, but it looks quite a bit smarter.

      It does look fairly restricted to more or less permanent links, however, since most (preferably all) of the clients have to run the software (linux only) for it to be effective.

      --
      "'Tis great confidence in a friend to tell him your faults, greater to tell him his." --Poor Richard's Almanac
    4. Re:WiFi doesn't use CSMA/CD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do not understand this technology, do you? Please refer to Mainstream media....

    5. Re:WiFi doesn't use CSMA/CD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      802.11b uses CSMA/CA (collision avoidance). After all, not every node in a WiFi network can see or hear ther nodes, so they may not be able to detect collisions (but your receiving node might).

      Isn`t this the excact reason for this slow down phenomenon? Rather then sending packets and hoping the right host get the packet, host in infrastructure mode send their packets to the acces point, which in turn sends it to everyone else (at the speed of the host with the worst connection?). Same for packets the AP bridges from other nets into the wireless one.

      Anyway neither the article nor the press release mention csma/cd (all talk about csma/ca) so its an rtfa issue ;-)

  11. I think you mean 2.4 Ghz phones by That_Dan_Guy · · Score: 1

    If you actually want to broadcast on the same channel(s) the 11b and 11g devices are on, you'd need 2.4 Ghz phones.

    1. Re:I think you mean 2.4 Ghz phones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2.4 GHz kill the AP allright, everytime i turn on my 2.4 GHz DSS phone, i lost my internet connection.

  12. 2mbps is plenty by vandel405 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If your in a public location using a hotspot the only transfers your most likely going to be doing are to/from the internet, not to/from your 1337 mp3 s3v3r box. Chances are the hot spots inet connection is ~1mbps anyway.

    1. Re:2mbps is plenty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what if I am at university where I have access to several DS-3's with 802.11g AP's around campus? If a single 802.11b user is connected to the AP then I drop from 55Mbps to 11Mbps?

    2. Re:2mbps is plenty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd be glad you could even get online in the first place wirelessly.
      Suck it up and deal with it or plug in.

    3. Re:2mbps is plenty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're not downgraded to a lower speed, it's just that a lower-speed user takes more airtime per frame and therefore consumes more than "his share" of the airtime/bandwidth.

    4. Re:2mbps is plenty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF do you need >11Mb for over wireless? Shuffle your fat, lazy ass over to a network jack if you need more bandwidth, you stupid fuck.

  13. nothing new by tarzan353 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is nothing new. This sort of flaw is inherent in CSMA/CD, the WiFi problem is just another example of it. Before CSMA/CD was even rolled out people knew about this situation. The pros just outweigh the cons, for what this network design philosophy is used for.

  14. In other words. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    * LEET_POWERBOOK_1400 has joined server WIFI_POINT
    <ibm_thinkpad> omfg lag
    <LEET_POWERBOOK_1400> hi does this map have the bfg ?
    <dell_dimension> boot the lpb
    <iBook> boot leet_powerbook_1400
    * ibm_thinkpad has initiated a vote to kick LEET_POWERBOOK_1400
    * Vote to kick LEET_POWERBOOK_1400 was successful (6 for, 1 against, 1 abstain)
    * LEET_POWERBOOK_1400 has been kicked from server WIFI_POINT
    <dell_dimension> ah much better
    * dell_dimension was gibbed by iBook's rocket

    1. Re:In other words. by Scudsucker · · Score: 1

      too funny...espcially since I have an old 1400 PB sitting on my shelf. And that focker was slow when it was *new*! :)

    2. Re:In other words. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So are most Apple laptops. MatherFacker. Btw, I'm typing this on a powerbook 12" :)

  15. Not likely by ezraekman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This isn't something that's likely to become a serious exploit, for the simple reason that the attacker would need to bring a compatible device within range of the access point. Unless someone has a serious grudge against the owner of the network, who'd want to spend the time? You'd either have to be present with a laptop/pda, or leave it behind. Remember, we are talking about radio waves here. Plenty of technology exists to track 802.11x signals, and all it takes is a well equipped sysadmin and a properly filed lawsuit to discourage the attacker.

  16. Mainstream news, yes...slashdot, no. by petree · · Score: 4, Informative

    For anyone who understands how these technologies work, this makes sense. It's one of the compromises that allows connectivity to happen over longer distances. As you might expect, signal degrades as you get furth away from the access point and rather than being unable from far away, it drops down to a lower speed. It just makes sense. Most people understand that wireless (802.11anything) technologies are shared bandwidth. People think "Oh it's 11mbit, that means when the access point is saturated it will be a total of 11mbit." Of course, this is only partly true. If everyone is really close and connecting at 11mbit then it will be 11mbit shared, but if everyone is connecting at 1mbit (far away) then it will 1mbit shared between everyone. This is nothing new, this is just how things work. This is why many access points have the option of only allowing 11mbit and 5mbit connections. This just seems like a bigger problem as peoples connection speeds are further apart in speed. (e.g. An 802.11g user humming along at 55mbit alone will loose approximately half his speed if a 1mbit user starts using half his bandwidth.) Don't expect to get the best of both worlds. People want a large range and high speed, it can't really happen, there are tradeoffs.

    1. Re:Mainstream news, yes...slashdot, no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      "People want a large range and high speed, it can't really happen"

      Go back to your cave.

      How much faster is wireless today then 5 years ago? A million percent? Do you think 802.11g is the end of wireless evolution? In ten years you don't think we will have gigabit wireless with 100m range?

    2. Re:Mainstream news, yes...slashdot, no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      An 802.11g user humming along at 55mbit alone will loose approximately half his...
      It's "lose" damnit, LOSE. L-ONE OH-ESS-EEE, not L-TWO OHS-ESS-EE. L.O.S.E.

      Sorry, I can't spell for toffee either, but now I know which to use I tend to lose my senses when someone's loose with their spelling.

      Where's Lose-not-loose Guy when you need him anyway?

    3. Re:Mainstream news, yes...slashdot, no. by mondoterrifico · · Score: 1

      Um this comment is a word for word rip off of one posted higher up. For moderation to work the mods have to be semi awake.

    4. Re:Mainstream news, yes...slashdot, no. by __aasfhc1949 · · Score: 1
      You wrote: Um this comment is a word for word rip off of one posted higher up. For moderation to work the mods have to be semi awake.

      Actually, the comment that you are replying to (the one you claim was copy-and-pasted) was posted at 11:43pm on August 3rd while the one that you reference to (the one that was supposedly the original) was posted after - 12:00am August 4th.

      Link to the comment that you claim was copied: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=73425&cid=6603 525
      Link to the comment that you replied to (in actuality the original): http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=73425&cid=6603 477

    5. Re:Mainstream news, yes...slashdot, no. by mondoterrifico · · Score: 1

      Yeah i see that i fucked up. Should have payed closer attention to the comment id. Thanx

    6. Re:Mainstream news, yes...slashdot, no. by __aasfhc1949 · · Score: 1

      No problem, mondoterrifico.

  17. What? by momerath2003 · · Score: 4, Informative

    From the yahoo article: their research paper that anomalies in the IEEE 802.1x standard -- including 802.11a, 802.11g, and the most widely-used Wi-Fi protocol, 802.11b

    I was under the impression that the IEEE 802.1x standard is solely a security standard and that it is not to be used as a generic term for the 802.11* wireless protocols. Anyone care to clear this up?

    --
    I had but a simple dream, to destroy all humans.
    1. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Typical level of journalistic polish. You are correct, 802.1x is a port based method for access control to a network. What they probably meant was 802.11x, with x as the variable (that is, until the 802.11x working group is formed ;)

  18. Human translation by Kourino · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is why years of language study is a useful thing :D I was a bit disappointed, though, because it doesn't give much information on exactly why this happens. Guess I'll have to go see how CSMA/CA is different from CSMA/CD on my own.
    --
    A primary analysis of Wi-Fi network performance anomalies was done by four reserchers of the Institute for Information Technology and Applied Mathematics (IMAG)'s Software Systems Resources unit. Martin Heusse, Franck Rousseau, Gilles Berger-Sabbatel, and Andrzej Duda just published the surprising results of their study for the INFOCOM conference in San Francisco, on of the most prestigious in the domain of networks research. it reveals that in certain very --- circumstances, this type of wireless network produces a relatively penalizing slowdown: users with better connectivity, and thus with better data flow, are penalized by those with degraded connections.

    Local wireless networks based on the "Wi-Fi" (IEEE 802.11b) standard are starting to be deployed in a relatively large number of locations, and many models of portable computers already come with a Wi-Fi network card. Attempts providing connectivity in public places, by way of what are called "hot spots", are becoming more common. The number of potential users are increasing rapidly, and the first hot spots are in wide use, but can Wi-Fi networks stand up to the needs of numerous users and increased bandwidth demands?

    In their usual operating mode, Wi-Fi networks are built upon on a wired network infrastructure. Wireless access points rely on a local, high-bandwidth network, most commonly Ethernet, and create a link between wireless network equipment and the local wired network, as well as the internet. In practice, wireless network cards use four flow levels with different signal modulation techniques that can be selected according to the quality of the connection to the access point. More simply, a card close to an access point can get good bandwidth, nominally 11 megabits/second; as it gets farther away, the levels go to 5.5 Mbit/s, 2 Mbit/s, and finally 1 Mbit/s, as the signal gets weaker and degrades.

    As Wi-Fi networks are created, some users get the best flow (11 Mbit/s) in the access point's coverage area because they're close to the access point. A user enters in this coverage area and, being relatively far away, is connected at 1 Mbit/s. When this user communicates over wireless channels, that is, when he transmits data, it causes a drop in bandwidth for all the others, leaving them at a bandwidth apparently identical to his, 1 Mbit/s. No matter which bandwidth levels the original users are connected at, the weakest will be observed by all hosts.

    This anomaly, inherent in networks relying on CSMA/CA (Carrier Sense Multiple Access / Collision Avoidance) which is defined in the Wi-Fi standard and revealed by the CNRS research team, penalises the network users. Despite a good connection, their apparent performance can become strongly degraded in a completely unforseeable manner, due simply to the activity of a third party connected to the same wireless access point at a lower bandwidth level.

    However, though it will be observed on any network of this type, the impact of this anomaly should be more or less moderate for two reasons. First, most equipment today connects to the network in a sporadic and non-continuous manner; periods of activity, like downloading a web page, are relatively short compared to the time spent reading it. Conversly, if a long communication takes place - downloading a large video, for example - it will continuously penalize all users. A second mitigating factor comes from higher-level protocols, especially TCP, which perform some sort of flow-control that creates an effect on apparent bandwidth.

    The researchers are currently working on solutions to limit or suppress this anomaly, which could become extremely limiting with the development of new communication applications, notably audio and video over the Internet.

  19. It's the nature of the system, but... by jeffmeden · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Its good to see this sort of stuff put to paper anyway. As a Free/Open software implementer working on developing cheap-as-possible wireless access points for rural area internet distribution, I can say this IS useful. Problems like this, and many others, creep out of nowhere and are very hard to track down without expensive equipment. This specific problem happened and was remedied after much head-scratching by dividing one site into multiple cells so slow users had more 'time' to get their data. just my 0.02

    jeff

  20. That's a big old 'No Shit' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You've "discovered" 802.11x designed behavior? Good Job, cheese eaters. Here's a cookie...

    1. Re:That's a big old 'No Shit' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You've "discovered" 802.11x designed behavior? Good Job, cheese eaters. Here's a cookie...

      I was hoping for some cheese, actually.

  21. Configure the AP properly then... by Otto · · Score: 1, Informative

    Configure the access point to only allow 11 mbit connections. If it's a Cisco AP, then that's relatively easy to do. I don't know about other APs.

    --
    - Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
  22. this is not news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... nor, for that matter, is timothy's profound grasp of the mind-numbingly obvious.

  23. Re:We've known about this since it's inception.. by GordoSlasher · · Score: 1

    Seems like a protocol that compressed the flesh-colored bits would greatly improve bandwidth in this situation.

  24. Jamming by gnarled · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Who needs sophisticated DOS attacks when simple jamming would do the trick quite well.

    --
    I'm a firm believer in the philosophy of a ruling class. Especially since I rule. -Randal, Clerks
    1. Re:Jamming by Nexzus · · Score: 2, Funny

      Mr. Sound Effects: The Access Point sir. It seems to be... jammed.

      Lord Helmet: Rasberry! There's only one man who would dare give me the rasberry! Lonestaaarrrr!.

      --
      Karma: Can only be portioned out by the Cosmos.
    2. Re:Jamming by IncohereD · · Score: 1

      It all comes down to how fast you're willing to be detected, if at all.

      That being said, you can jam a 11b network quite effectively by turning on a bunch of microwaves in the near vicinity. Who wants lunch?

  25. I wouldn't worry about it too much... by canning · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    They cited an example where several users, who are enjoying a fast 11Mbps connection because they're close to the hot spot, see their performance dramatically drop when a single user -- perhaps because he is further from the access point -- connects at a sluggish 1Mbps. In that case, the French experts said, all are punished for the sins of the one: those users once connected at 11Mbps will see their speeds dragged down to 1Mbps.

    and shortly after the perpetrator was revealed he quickly surrendered.

    --
    I love the smell of Karma in the morning
  26. I hate slow traffic. by rice_burners_suck · · Score: 0

    Just like how one slow driver on the street causes a traffic jam that lasts hours, even on roads with many lanes. It should be allowed to beat the crap out of people like that. If you want to take your sweet time driving down the street, pull over and let the 10 billion people who actually need to get where they're going pass you, you dumb fuck.

  27. There he is! by The+Jonas · · Score: 1

    If they use Location Awareness technology they just might...

  28. slow? by MikeFM · · Score: 1

    Most users are still connecting with 56K modems and are lucky to get about a 40K connection.. so I think most could make due with 1Mbps.

    --
    At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
    1. Re:slow? by RevSmiley · · Score: 1

      Mod this up.

      --
      As you can see I don't care about my karma.
    2. Re:slow? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      get DSL or a cable modem. *you* (dialup user) are indeed the minority now.

    3. Re:slow? by gykh · · Score: 1

      Not if they PAID for their wireless hardware!

  29. it's 'courriel' for email (nt) by Rhinobird · · Score: 1

    it's 'courriel' for email (nt)

    --
    If Mr. Edison had thought smarter he wouldn't sweat as much. --Nikola Tesla
  30. Easy enough to solve this problem by curtlewis · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Just install switches instead of hubs. Kiss CSMA/CD collision issues goodbye with a dedicated switch port for every system/device.

    In days past, it was cost prohibitive to do this, but with cheap switches these days, why not? I run a switched net at home, not that I really need to, but if I happen to be doing a 2 gig file copy from one box to another, at least I can surf the net without any slowdowns.

    1. Re:Easy enough to solve this problem by Vengie · · Score: 1

      Hi...umm...wireless?? No such concept as a "switch" because it all uses the same media [the AIR] -- you cant have a "dedicated line"......did i just fall for a huge troll?

      --
      When in doubt, parenthesize. At the very least it will let some poor schmuck bounce on the % key in vi. (Larry Wall)
    2. Re:Easy enough to solve this problem by curtlewis · · Score: 1

      ah, I misread CSMA/AC as CSMA/CD... my bad.

      Yes, that is inherently the problem with the 802.1x network and it's nothing new that network geeks haven't known from the get go.

    3. Re:Easy enough to solve this problem by Pow · · Score: 1

      Think of it as the accesspoint with highly directional antennas to all clients.
      Client A will not hear traffic that is sent by AP to client B.

    4. Re:Easy enough to solve this problem by Vengie · · Score: 1

      uh.....then you arent talking about 802.11a, b, or g....being as CTS/RTS exists to solve the "hidden terminal" problem, among others.
      If client A and client B send traffic to AP at the same time, they will still collide.

      --
      When in doubt, parenthesize. At the very least it will let some poor schmuck bounce on the % key in vi. (Larry Wall)
  31. Milwaukee has this issue by citking · · Score: 4, Interesting
    The Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel ran a story about becoming the 2nd US city to offer public WI-FI in two downtown parks last week. According to the article, "Randy Gschwind, the city's chief information officer... said the network serves 20 to 40 users before it becomes clogged."

    Taking into consideration that Milwaukee is a city of ~600,000 people, that not many are going to have wireless laptops and even fewer are gonna spend time in a park surfing the web, it still seems like 20-40 users clogging a public WI-FI is a bit odd.

    I suppose they can't complain, though, since the city paid less than a couple of hundred dollars for the setup. Still, it just seems somewhat pointless if it's gonna be clogged all the time.

    --
    "This food is problematic."
  32. /. article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oops, I forgot to include the link to the recent /. article on 802.11x triangulation.

  33. Wireless switches? by mcmasuda · · Score: 1

    They're talking about collisions within the 802.11 wireless network, not in the 802.3 wired network behind it. What you propose isn't feasible since you're essentially talking about dedicating a wireless channel to every user.

  34. Don't get excited about the obvious by mrball_cb · · Score: 3, Informative

    For an excellent explanation of why this type of thing occurs, check out:

    http://www.karlnet.com/Documents/WhitePaper/TurboC ellWhitePaper/TurboCell%20White%20Paper.htm

    Even better is that it details a superior system (albeit pricey per node). It's based on military technology and military technology is light years ahead of what most of us are using on a daily basis.

    Blue skies...

  35. Hmmm? by RevSmiley · · Score: 1

    This is how RF packet radio networks function. Unless you give each user a RF channel of their own it slows down and plain stops sometimes.
    I have a DSL account that 1mbt is about my average download speed. Why is this something to whine about?

    --
    As you can see I don't care about my karma.
    1. Re:Hmmm? by AntiOrganic · · Score: 1

      Because some people have 10 Mbit cable.

    2. Re:Hmmm? by isbhod · · Score: 1

      where? i'll move for 10Mb

    3. Re:Hmmm? by AntiOrganic · · Score: 1

      Haha. Optimum Online in the NY tri-state area does a pretty good job speedwise. Their mail server is an unreliable hunk of crap, though.

    4. Re:Hmmm? by RevSmiley · · Score: 1

      Actually my Brighthouse Cable is 10 mbt
      I also have a 1 mbt ADSL at a differnent location.
      Cable is 10 bucks cheaper. Cable has been out once in going on 4 years.My SBC ADSL is out at least once every 3 months and needs repair to lines external to my site. I get dumped at least once a day and it is 15 bucks more a month. (No cable to get at that location.) DSL sucks ass. No it's not SBC (Who also sucks ass) ADSL/Copper lines suck ass.

      --
      As you can see I don't care about my karma.
    5. Re:Hmmm? by fyonn · · Score: 1

      ADSL/Copper lines suck ass

      well, as much as I hate to tempt fate by saying this, but I think it depends on your area, I've been using adsl for a couple of years now and I rarely get dumped offline. I leave my computer on 247 and I don't often have problems.

      dave

    6. Re:Hmmm? by RevSmiley · · Score: 1

      Oh I am sure it is very much based on location.
      Too much of the telephone infrastructure is just so old so DSL experience and speed varies widely. I still think the phone company should be able to deliver as good a service as the cable company can. It's a matter of will.

      --
      As you can see I don't care about my karma.
  36. Copy and Paste anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thats very interesting, but I liked the comment better the first time.

  37. Just use a phased-array wireless switch. It's easy by yancey · · Score: 4, Informative

    The answer is to use something like the "wireless switch" that Vivato developed, which uses phased-array antenna technology and can give the full 11 Mbps 802.11b bandwidth to each client.

    --
    Ouch! The truth hurts!
  38. Question to clarify by timeOday · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Does this just decrease the total throughput for the base station, or does being on the same network as somebody with a slow connection actually slow you down more than if they had a fast connection?

    If I'm the only one on an 11mbps network and sitting right next to the station, I'd expect all the bandwidth. If somebody else joins the same network, in fairness my bandwidth may be halved. But do I really care whether the other guy is getting 1mbps or 11mbps during his timeslice? I'm still getting half the bandwidth as if I had it all to myself, right? I would only consider it strange if a single user joining with a weak connection cut my bandwith by > 1/n.

    1. Re:Question to clarify by Kourino · · Score: 1

      No, you're not.

      Basically, the way CSMA/CA works, when I want to transmit, I send a jamming signal. If I don't receive a jamming signal in some small amount of time, I can assume with some degree of safety that no-one else is trying to transmit at the same time. So, I go ahead and do my business, during which time no-one else can transmit.

      Now, let's say you and the other person on the network are trying to send some large file. Say your networking implementation sends a jamming signal, transmits one TCP packet, and then unjams the channel, waiting for an ACK to send the next packet. The worst case scenario will end up with simple alternation: you send a packet, the other person sends a packet; you send a packet, the other person sends a packet; etc. (This doesn't strike me as terribly likely, but it's probably possible.) In this case, yes, your throughput will effectively be reduced to 1 Mbps; you only transmit data as often as the other person on your network. If you only transmit as much per packet as they do, bam! If, in this case, you transmit larger packets, which TCP allows, the effect will be mitigated somewhat.

    2. Re:Question to clarify by timeOday · · Score: 1

      Interesting... though it would be much more interesting to see some benchmarks backing up the theory.

    3. Re:Question to clarify by LarsG · · Score: 4, Informative

      Basically, the way CSMA/CA works, when I want to transmit, I send a jamming signal. If I don't receive a jamming signal in some small amount of time, I can assume with some degree of safety that no-one else is trying to transmit at the same time.

      Hmm? That's roughly how Ethernet works (and it's /CD and not /CA).

      With 802.11* communication, you typically transmit at ~20dBm and receive at ~-60dBm. The difference in signal strength is ~10^8, so it is pretty much impossible to detect someone else transmitting at the same time. Instead, 802.11* use Collission Avoidance. In short - listen before transmit, and explicit ACK.

      The worst case scenario will end up with simple alternation: you send a packet, the other person sends a packet; you send a packet, the other person sends a packet; etc.

      Yup. That's pretty much how the 802.11 MAC layer works if several wireless stations are trying to communicate at the same time. All stations have roughly the same chance of sending a packet, and the client @1Mbps will use 11 times more air time per packet than a client @11Mbps.

      Anyway.. I don't quite understand why you have to be a researcher to 'discover' that a client that is associated at 1Mbps can drag an entire 802.11 segment down the drain. This has been known for a long time.

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
  39. And this is surprising why? by joshua.robinson · · Score: 1

    its just like introducing a 10mb/s nic on a network of 10/100 nics, all will have to slow down to the slowest user for compatibility, I always assumed the role of thumb, a network is as fast as its slowest node.What do I know

    --
    Whats A sig anyway
    1. Re:And this is surprising why? by gykh · · Score: 1

      [IANANetworkAdmin]

      That kind of slowing-down is usually only associated with hubs, where everyone shares bandwidth.

      Switches, which are getting pretty cheap and I have found to be more reliable, have dedicated bandwidth for each port - so if you are 10/100, you can talk at 100 and if you're only a 10, then you alone talk at 10.

  40. Wow. How original by petree · · Score: 1

    Mod parent down. He just copy/pasted my earlier post.

  41. Response to parent sig. by reality-bytes · · Score: 1

    No.

    --
    Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
    1. Re:Response to parent sig. by pAnkRat · · Score: 1

      Me neither,
      since WineX runs Vice City.....

      --
      Time flies like an arrow,
      fruit flies like a banana.

      --
      we need an "-1 Plain wrong" moderation option!
  42. WiFi bandwidth shortage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Supposedly only channels 1, 6, and 11 are far enough away that they don't interfere. In my apartment building there's two WiFi APs on each of those channels. My GF's WinXP machine keeps getting booted off the WLAN because she gets invalid packets. She's been begging for an ethernet cable, but after spending hundreds on getting rid of all those cables it makes me sick to give up so easily. Perhaps I need a bigger antenna.

  43. I get nice wireless in my cave by petree · · Score: 1
    "People want a large range and high speed, it can't really happen"
    Go back to your cave.
    How much faster is wireless today then 5 years ago? A million percent? Do you think 802.11g is the end of wireless evolution? In ten years you don't think we will have gigabit wireless with 100m range?
    I certainly don't think what we have now is the end all be all of everything, but lets be serious. Signal will always degrade the further you go away. Whether the technology lets you take advantage of this will be uncertain (you don't get higher quality sound when you stand under a cell tower) but believe you me, we won't have a technology in 10yrs that gives you gigabit speeds from 100miles (I assume you meant miles, not the standard use of m, meters) FM radio hardly goes that far, with no buildings in the way, with good weather...oh and you want it to be two way? Hehe. I like new technologies too, but keep dreaming.
    1. Re:I get nice wireless in my cave by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FM radio hardly goes that far, with no buildings in the way, with good weather...

      We won't have female monk radio in 10yrs. I assume you meant "female monk", not the standard use of FM, frequency modulation. Hehe. I like gender equality too, but keep dreaming.

  44. Find him... by gykh · · Score: 1

    Sorry, excuse me...how fast is your connection, if I may ask? Oh, thank you...

    chkchk *BANG!*

    Aaaa...now we're talking...*busy clicking sounds resume*

    1. Re:Find him... by Cobol+God · · Score: 1

      Sorry, excuse me...how fast is your connection, if I may ask? Oh, thank you... chkchk *BANG!* Aaaa...now we're talking...*busy clicking sounds resume*

      hmmm Only in Texas would you hear the bang. Civilized people would just throw hot coffee on the offender till he runs away screaming in pain.

      :)

  45. Oh, and by the way. by Kourino · · Score: 1

    You could have this problem, in theory, on an unswitched Ethernet network with a mixture of 10 Mbps- and 100 Mbps-capable hosts. The problem is that the bandwidth is shared, but not equally, because it just takes some users longer to transmit.

    1. Re:Oh, and by the way. by LarsG · · Score: 1

      You could have this problem, in theory, on an unswitched Ethernet network with a mixture of 10 Mbps- and 100 Mbps-capable hosts. The problem is that the bandwidth is shared, but not equally, because it just takes some users longer to transmit.

      Kind of. Except that you can't have both 10Mbps and 100Mbps NICs connected to a hub. They all have to use the same modulation speed, so the hub is locked at either 10 or 100.

      But the theory is sound - if you have a shared medium that supports different modulation speeds and the stations transmitting on the medium have equal chance of sending a packet, the busy station transmitting with slowest modulation will dictate the maximum packet rate of all stations.

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
  46. CSMA/CD or CSMA/CA ? by Ex-MislTech · · Score: 1

    I think it is not CSMA/CD, but is CSMA/CA instead .

    http://aqua.comptek.ru/test/HiddenNode/hidden_no de _en.html

    Thanks,
    Ex-MislTech

    --
    google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
    1. Re:CSMA/CD or CSMA/CA ? by MindNumbingOblivion · · Score: 1

      You're right. The article itself does say CSMA/CA, in my summarizing I put down /CD by mistake. After awhile, all these blasted acronyms get muddled together...And unfortunately wireless isn't my forte; I just figured this would be interesting for developer and troubleshooter types. If anyone has links to the 802.11* standard, or whitepapers and such, I would appreciate it...I'm still picking up stuff that Cisco forgot to mention...

      --
      #define CLUE 0
  47. Time for Token Ring wireless... by thepacketmaster · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It sounds like it's time for some form of Token passing. That would prevent slow nodes from dominating the bandwidth, and would make sure everyone gets their fair share. Each node would have to register with the AP and then the AP would serve as the ring monitor.

    --

    --

    Luck is just skill you didn't know you had.

    1. Re:Time for Token Ring wireless... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you mean....like frottle ?

    2. Re:Time for Token Ring wireless... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The wafreenet.org server appears to be having problems.....try the Frottle SourceForge page

    3. Re:Time for Token Ring wireless... by Anonynmous+Cow · · Score: 1

      Yeah - like the software we (WAFreeNet) just released....

      frottle

      No, you're welcome. Really.

  48. plagiarist Re:Taking bets on by randyest · · Score: 1

    WTF is wrong with you asshole? MODS! Before you mod this down, note that parent copied this earlier post verbatim. Now go use your points wisely.

    --
    everything in moderation
  49. Cordless Phone Attack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    All you need to shut down a wireless hotspot is a 2.4 GHz cordless phone. This will work for any of the 802.11X connections, lets give a hand to the FCC for this one.

    1. Re:Cordless Phone Attack by sn0wcrash · · Score: 3, Funny

      I reccomend the Panasonic Xtreme 2.4Ghz phones. They kill WiFi connections with extreme prejudice.

    2. Re:Cordless Phone Attack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I got 3 2.4ghz phones in my house, along with two laptops on wlan, connected by a dlink AP. no problem there.

    3. Re:Cordless Phone Attack by DirkDaring · · Score: 1

      Wow talk about someone with no idea what they are talking about - this is it.

    4. Re:Cordless Phone Attack by Fosberry · · Score: 1

      Since 802.11a works in the 5GHz frequency range, a 2.4 GHZ cordless phone wouldn't affect it. But there are now 5.8 GHz cordless phones that should do that trick nicely.

    5. Re:Cordless Phone Attack by Faith_Healer · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you would just get a ham liscense then you would have primary allocation for some of the 2.4ghz band and you could take steps to resolve the phone interference properly. I cant wait untill more hams start useing 802.11whatever and have a reason to do some 2.4ghz fox hunting. If you want more information on the Hinternet ham internet then check out www.arrl.org.

      --
      Faith_Healer -- The antethsis to almost everything, and the worlds worst speller.
  50. I really don't get it I guess.... by Ken+Broadfoot · · Score: 1


    If I find myself in the "wet spot" I will gladly give it up to other users...

    --
    Bitcoin pyramid: Join here: http://www.bitcoinpyramid.com/r/1427 it's FREE!
  51. This is news? by Phil+Karn · · Score: 3, Informative
    This is hardly an "anomaly", nor is it the fault of CSMA/CA (note: not CSMA/CD). The problem is inherent in the physics of the situation, and it's well known to radio network designers.

    The problem will occur in any shared multiple-access radio network when users are at different distances from the base station. Those far away from the base station use spectrum less efficiently than those close to the base station because they're forced to put more RF energy into each data bit to close the link.

    The same thing happens in 1xEV-DO. As in 802.11, a wide range of data rates is available to adapt to varying channel conditions, and the lower data rates use the channel less efficiently.

    Digital radio designers work hard to make their modulation, coding and multiple access techniques as efficient and adaptive as possible. But at some point, you have no alternative but to add more base stations so that each need serve only a reasonable number of users.

    1. Re:This is news? by kk6ho · · Score: 1

      I would like to give Phil Karn belated thanks for the KA9Q NOS software he developed over 10 years ago. This 'Network Operating System' enabled PC's to communicate over Amateur Radio packet networks using TCP/IP. His software greatly enhanced my enjoyment of packet radio, which at the time was mostly boring, simple BBS's.

      His free software, which predated Linux, allowed me to run my simple 8080 and 486 like a Unix boxen. The KA9Q NOS made my transition to Linux simple and helped train me in a new career of software devlopment.

      Phil Karn is definitely an expert in wireless networking (hardware and software). Check out his site or do a Google search for more information on his contributions to Amateur Radio, wireless technology, and the Internet. I bet some of his code ended up in the Linux kernel as well.

  52. I forsee everybody waking up and realizing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That slashdot's editors are facists.

    Sorry I haven't been posting about this as much as I should be...I've been busy.

    the AC

  53. Re:Just use a phased-array wireless switch. It's e by bandy · · Score: 1

    You do not understand the problem, Grasshopper.

    The stars shine all day
    Jealous Sun keeps us focused
    Twilight shows Venus

    --
    "You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
  54. Problem solved!! by BoneMarrow · · Score: 1
    --
    Unfortunately, no one can be told what my sig is...
  55. CD? by mindstrm · · Score: 3, Informative

    I thought 802.11b and friends were not CSMA/CD but CSMA/CA. That's collision avoidance, not collision detection. CD is done electrically in ethernet.. the voltage on the line is wrong if there is a collision.. a transmitter can know immediately via feedback if it's caused a collision.

    In wireless, we don't have this... instead you re-transmit packets that get lost, and you try to avoid collisions in the first place.

  56. Re:Just use a phased-array wireless switch. It's e by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

    - Phased-array plasma rifle in the 40 watts range - Hey, just what you see, pal

  57. This has already been solved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think this discussion has digressed. There are plenty of access points on the market that are overcoming these limitations such as the recent belkin APs. Cisco is still trying to make a go with the whole csma/ca thing, while belkin once again solves the problem at speeds almost double.

  58. I don't buy it by retro128 · · Score: 1

    The article is too short on technical detail to be worth anything.

    I don't think this is the Apocalypse for WiFi. The important thing to remember here that this is radio...Only one conversation can happen at a time, and the 11mbps is shared across all nodes. This is similar to a hub, but the difference is all the nodes can run at different speeds.

    The folks close to the AP will still be going 11mbps, but although the laggard out in BFE will be going 1mbps, he will not drag the others down to his level. What WILL happen is that each packet takes longer to get to him, which could theoretically tie up the AP for longer times then if he were running at 11mbps. If he were getting enough packets, I could see how it could cause a slight slowdown, but not congestion.

    --
    -R
  59. Small typo by RyoSaeba · · Score: 1

    CNRS actually means 'Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique' (National, not Nationale)

    --
    Tsuyoikoto ha taisetsu da ne, dakedo namida mo hitsuyousa (Strength is an important thing, but tears too are necessary)
    1. Re:Small typo by Geotopia · · Score: 1

      You know what really bothers me about the French - they have a different word for everything!
      - kirei na hana niwa toge ga arimasu
      (even pretty flowers have thorns)

  60. Re: there's a cheaper alternative to Karlnet..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm involved in a wireless community freenet in Western Australia, and we've been suffering from the hidden node problem.

    We investigated Karlnet, but found the software expensive, and only supported on old kernel versions.

    As a result, we started experimenting, and have come up with our own solution: frottle.

    We've been running it for a while now, and are still tweaking some parts of it, but it's been working extremely well.

    Check out the frottle page for more info.

  61. Re:Just use a phased-array wireless switch. It's e by maxhead · · Score: 1

    Please mod this parent down. Vivato claims to do wireless switching but this is simply a marketing term. They do interesting work on antennas, (from what I understand, similar to what is described in July's SciAm), but ~11Mbs on a single channel is an immutable law. What is more interesting as a solution for this WLAN problem is to set a Minimum Association Rate as described in this whitepaper.

  62. Presidential Feedback by dcw3 · · Score: 1

    It's only slow cuz them boys were testing the French Connection. Now whatchya shud be using is Patriot.net

    Sincerely,
    Dubayah

    --
    Just another day in Paradise
  63. Translation (And not Babelfish either!) by usotsuki · · Score: 1
    This is a mostly manual translation of the page.

    -uso.

    First analysis of performance anomalies of Wi-Fi networks

    A first analysis of performance anomalies of Wi-Fi networks (1) was completed by four Network System Software integrators at CNRS's Institut d'Informatique et de Mathematiques Appliquees de Grenoble (IMAG). Martin Heusse, Franck Rousseau, Gilles Berger-Sabbatel, and Andrzej Duda have published the surprising results of their study, on the occasion of the INFOCOM conference in San Fransisco, one of the most prestigious in the domain of network research. It reveals that in certain ordinary circumstances, this type of wireless network presents a relatively penalizing performance anomaly: users that can have better connectivity, and thus, better speed, are penalized by their use of degraded conditions.

    Local wireless networks based on the Wi-Fi standard (IEEE 802.11b) beginning to be deployed in a relatively large manner and on numerous models of portable computers are from now on pre-equipped with this type of network card. Experiments aiming to furnish connectivity in public places, through the intermediary known as "hot spots" (2), are more and more numerous. The potential number of users is growing rapidly, and first "hot spot" experiments well advanced. But can Wi-Fi networks handle the load of that number of users, and the required speed?

    In their classic mode of operation, Wi-Fi networks rest on a fixed wired infrastructure. Wireless access points have relied on a high-speed local network, most often of the Ethernet type, and make the link between equipment connected by the wireless network and the local wired network, then to the Internet. Wireless network cards use four different rates of speed corresponding, in reality, to different techniques of signal modulation which are selected in function of the quality of the connection at the access point. More simply, a device close to an access point gets a fast flow, nominally 11 megabits per second (Mbits/s.), then, as it moves away, it drops to 5.5 Mbit/s., 2 Mbit/s., and finally 1 Mbit/s. as the signal weakens and degrades.

    Here is what Wi-Fi networks can lead to: some users potentially get the highest speed in the coverage area of an access point, 11 Mbit/s., as they are nearby. A user enters this coverage area, and, being relatively far away, is now connected at 1 Mbit/s. As he uses the wireless channel to communicate, that is to say to transmit data, this activity induces a drop in speed for all the others, bringing the others to a speed apparently identical to his, or 1 Mbit/s. This same type of observation is valid whatever the values among the four referred to above; the lowest speed will be observed by all hosts.

    This anomaly, inherent in the CSMA/CA (Carrier Sense Multiple Access/ Collision Avoidance) access protocol, defined in the Wi-Fi standard and revealed by the CNRS research team, is penalizing for network users. Despite a good connection, their apparent performance can be greatly degraded without their knowledge and in a completely unforeseeable manner, from the simple fact of the activity of a third host less well connected to the same wireless access point.

    However, despite being perfectly observable on any network of this type, the impact of this anomaly can be slightly tempered for two reasons. Firstly, by the fact that today most devices connected to the network use it in a sporadic and non-continuous manner; their periods of activity, such as downloading a Web page, are relatively short compared to the time spent reading it; on the other hand, if a long communication is under way - downloading, audio and video connection for example - it penalizes the users in a continuous manner. A second attenuating factor lies in higher-level protocols, primarily TCP (3), where internal mechanisms have an effect on observed speed.

    The researchers are currently working to find solutions in order to limit or remove this anomaly, which could seem very limiting with the develo

    --
    Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
  64. Re:Just use a phased-array wireless switch. It's e by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's wrong with this picture...

  65. All tech is limited by t_allardyce · · Score: 1

    I thought this problem was mainly caused by PHB's and Microsoft admins who thought WiFi was the holy grail and all cable based networks should be converted? WiFi is not a substitute for a properly installed conventional network, radio waves get jammed, evesdropped etc more easily. Sure its very useful for some purposes. You can jam a WiFi network with a cordless phone so you better make sure its not mission critical.

    --
    This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
  66. Mod parent up by smeenz · · Score: 1

    Mod the parent up.. finally someone has stopped rehashing what those 'researchers' 'discovered' and done some thought of their own.

    They are correct in the connection speed of closer stations is not affected. What is affected is the amount of free time that close stations have to transmit in.

    Since 1500 bytes takes longer to transmit at 1mbps than it does at 11mbps, it follows that a 1mbps station that is, say copying a huge file, will give the 11mbps stations much less time to use, and since bandwidth is traffic over time, it affects bandwidth (but not line speed).

  67. Re:CSMA/CD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know I'm probably wasting my breath, but here goes....

    repetition /doesn't/ make unfunny things funny.

    just thought i should point that out to you.

  68. Is it just me, or... by finallyHasANickname · · Score: 4, Funny
    ...are people forgetting that copper is priced per traincar load--not per troy ounce? Every time I read about 802.11x, I think, "Golly, that sounds pretty fun, but I really don't think I despise cat 5 cable that intensely anyway," and there is something about a $9 card running about 50 times faster than anyone I know could hope to afford to access the Internet sustainably, most of all knowing that everybody's operating systems can access that card about a trillion times without problems. The number after the dot that is really neat is "3". Yep. You heard it here first. 802.3 is excellent technology. That it's old is (occasionally) beside the point. BTW, I don't mean this as antagonism; I'm just literally wondering if I'm all alone here in this Luddite corner that might find copper at dirt cheap, vetted, reliable, tested, robust, negligible and "happy" 100 Mb/s to be really really really tough to beat. The next thing you know I'll be lobbying Congress to keep people using pocket calculators.

    Huh? (blush) Oh yeah. They actually are. Excuse me for the lack of controversy in my opinions. Next time I just might offend you. ;-)

  69. No /. in posted comments. by leuk_he · · Score: 1

    Few people relatively read the comments. Even fewer click the links in the comments. You can freely post the urls here. /.ing only occurs if the editors post the in in the story

    For the really paranoia: post a google cache link.

  70. Re: there's a cheaper alternative to Karlnet..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The wafreenet.org server appears to be having problems.....try the Frottle SourceForge page

  71. 802.11b ~= ethernet. Read Oreilly 802.11 book! by puzzled · · Score: 1



    Out of the box most access points are configured for maximum throughput. 802.11b is CSMA/CA - collission avoidance. The CA features are disabled unless you turn on maximum fragment size and some other stuff so that the clients ask the AP for permission to transmit.

    802.11 by design assumes that two transmitting clients can see each other. When remotes can't see each other, say in an outdoor access scenario, as soon as the cell gets busy you have to be all over the tuning parameters to keep the complaints down to a dull roar.

    I've seen cells with a dozen customers that get excellent throughput, then one node gets added in a problem area and *everyone's* throughput goes right down to the same level as the problem node.

    FYI the best DoS for 802.11b is built right in to the MAC layer. If two access points share a channel, each will honor the other's collision avoidance stuff at L2 - WEP, etc do not protect you. All you need to do is modify drivers on your DoS box such that they periodically try to seize the medium without regard for what else is going on - brings the AP you're after to a screeching halt, isn't visible in terms of their SSID, and you only need enough power to get the AP's attention. You'd have to be a guru with kismet and know way more about 802.11b MAC layer than I do to detect this stuff, then you're left trying to DF a low power source ... in other words, you're 0wn3d and you might as well give up :-(

    --
    I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo
  72. How Callous can the French be? by Xrkun · · Score: 1

    "But a recent research paper from the French Centre Nationale de la Recherche Scientifique tells how one slow user accessing a hot point can hurt the whole group"
    Why do the French Researchers gotta pick on users that are slower then the average person? Sheesh!

  73. Simple Fix. Lock your spped on the access point by MrJerryNormandinSir · · Score: 1

    What a simple fix. Lock your speed on the access point.

  74. Your post is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Like the article says, 802.11 uses CSMA/CA not CSMA/CD. The medium access protocol is closer to Local Talk than Ethernet.

  75. Phased-array this... by CaptainFrito · · Score: 1
    As long as the 12sqft antenna doesn't move around like a Old Ironside's mainsail in the wind, and you can afford the 20 grand for the thing, and you have a place to put it that won't get shot at, and the client devices don't move around more than a few inches, and there isn't anyone in the same antenna beam pattern running at a slow speed (or emitting noise) directly behind you or in front of you or right next to you.

    The concept of a "wireless switch" is ridiculous, a true oxymoron. It annoys me every time I hear it. It is misleading and snake oil. If such a thing could be done then CSMA/CD would work too. CSMA/CA is used because you simply cannot know who will use the medium or where they'll be. Such knowledge is key to ethernet switching. The wireless model (esp the way 802.11 works) is a hub. People will say anything to raise millions from VC's. Trouble is, to eventually dump the company to dumb-money public investors, some early-adopter suckers have to learn the hard way by buying what is essentially hi-tech scrap.

    I think I'm going to recommend that all marketing departments lurk /. and post silly statements like this to trick the ignorant.

  76. Re:perhaps this is why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    It is now official; Netcraft now confirms: *BSD is dying

    One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

    You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

    FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.

    Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

    OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

    Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

    All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

    Fact: *BSD is dying

  77. Vivato "developed" no such thing by CaptainFrito · · Score: 1

    Phased array antennas have been around for a long long time. What they "developed" is hype. Next this we'll hear is that they "developed" radio.

    1. Re:Vivato "developed" no such thing by yancey · · Score: 1

      I believe that neither I nor Vivato say they developed phased-array technology, just a product that uses phased-array antenna technology to do 802.1x.

      --
      Ouch! The truth hurts!
    2. Re:Vivato "developed" no such thing by CaptainFrito · · Score: 1
      Oh yeah, right, they "developed" a "wireless switch" which is utter nonsense. And "full 11Mb/s" ?!? More nonsense. Phased-array antenna technology is no big deal, been around forever. YAWN

      Every 802.11a/b/g system can do full bandwidth. Stop making it sound like Mabuhay/Vivato can do something others cannot. They are simply yet-another-antenna-company hawking overpriced, oversize antennas developed 50 years ago as an innovation. SNORE...ZZZ...SNORE...ZZZ

    3. Re:Vivato "developed" no such thing by CaptainFrito · · Score: 1
      I believe that niether I nor I said they developed phased array technology. What I did say was they developed "hype"

      Ouch! the Truth hurts!

  78. Re:Priceless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's it. We're off to Fry's, then every Starbucks in town!

  79. Re:We've known about this since it's inception.. by slackingme · · Score: 0

    The silence you hear is that of a few Slashdot mods stopping their 24/7 masturbation to mod me down because their sense of humor has been overshadowed by their need to pleasure themselves.