Slashdot Mirror
Windows ATMs by 2005
An anonymous reader writes "O'Reilly Developer News is running a brief on how the banking industry will be running a stripped down version of windows on 65% of its ATM machines by 2005. On a morning when I'm receiving the latest windows virus in my inbox every five minutes I feel very comfortable with this."
Holy cow! Can you say, "Free cash!"
Just stand in front of ATM the next time a worm rocks through and watch it start spitting out bills.
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From the Wired article:
.dll that gets hacked?
But one of Anderson's colleagues, Bruce Schneier, chief technology officer at security monitoring and consulting company Counterpane Internet Security, dismissed this [money-dispensing virus] scenario. He pointed out that the machines would not operate online and therefore would not become vulnerable to a malicious Internet attack or to some virus passed around in an e-mail attachment. Because the machines have no peripherals like floppy disks, it would be difficult for a cracker to install code or steal information.
Of course, everyone knows that ATMs have no communications links of any kind. It's just a box full of money with a power plug, right?
Duh! The ATM communicates with the bank, with the ATM user, *and* with the maintenance staff.
* The bank connection is some sort of comm line. Put encryption on it and maybe it's safe. But what happens when it turns out they've used some Win-standard encryption
* The customer sticks a card in and punches buttons. This is reasonably safe now, when you have little more than a numeric keypad with "Cancel" and "Enter" buttons. But the more Windoze crap they add -- they're talking about "lottery tickets and soft drinks" -- the more robust the UI will have to be. Are you sure you checked that buffer overflow?
* Finally, the maintenance staff has "root-like" physical access to the system. Sure, you have to get past some heavy-duty locks to get to the control panel inside the machine. Big deal, lots of crooks know how to pick locks... how many, though, know OS/2? But what happens when trojan-friendly Windows is the OS? Pick the lock, load the software (because there *will* be a floppy, CD-ROM, or USB port for upgrades), and dispense free, untracable cash whenever someone inserts an ATM card with magic cardno "1111-2222-3333-4444".
Perhaps using OS/2 was a way of de facto "security by obscurity". Installing Windows is more like "security by crossing-your-fingers".
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
We have them in the UK already - the sight of ATMs showing an NT4 logon screen is not uncommon...
You must not reboot to receive your cash.
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
posted anonymously to not lose kharma for funny.
Um.... a good number of ATM's issued by a large bank I used to code for run NT 4.0. This isn't late breaking news.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
A FATAL EXCEPTION 0$ HAS OCCURRED.
Please contact your financial administrator
See the Pictures of the Flood of '08
now instead of the usual $1.50, im gonna be charged a liscence fee, and will ahve to pay extra if i want receipt support.....
xao
xao
http://TheHillforum.hopto.org
... Debt.
I know for a fact that Natwest Bank here in the U.K tried Windows NT on their machines a couple of years ago. I saw three or four NT error dialogs in the first two weeks. They changed to some other system (Possibly going back to whatever they had before, with a different user interface on it) after a couple of month.
So its not that new an idea.
...like this before...
I actually saw a BSOD displayed on the ATM and it was frustratingly annoying...
Why can't the banks simply use the not-broken current embedded, probably written in assembly system that they use for ATMs now?
Why MUST it be changed? Are they going to add every service in the world to an ATM?
Great! Just what we need, long lines at the ATM, just like at the bank, where one person chews up the teller's time performing six months of banking at one time...
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
Windows on an ATM - already happening. Already
getting errors.
i think this is less of a concern than it is made out to be. an ATM OS can be tested very rigorously much more easily than an entire OS (especially a bloated one). so i am not afraid of windows ATMs, security-wise. what i AM afraid of is how this lays another layer of brick that reinforces that MS monopoly - i hope some enterprising individuals offer a cheaper, features-competitive open-source system.
smd4985
Does anyone else think it might be a bad idea to give Billy Boy more power over money than he already has?
I couldn't fail to disagree with you any less.
"They have tried to cut out the unnecessary rubbish that clutters up the typical PC."
but.. but.. the article says they're running Windows.. now I'm confused.
Trolling is a art,
Here's the link I was looking for. Classic stuff!
If I get cash from an Microsoft ATM, do I have to put it in a Microsoft Wallet?
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
I Hate That!!!!
I'm sib888, and I approved this comment.
With the amount of local banks in my local area that are using unsecured (non-WEP) protected wireless access points on their local LAN, I wonder how long it will take for a RDC that tells the ATM to spit out money?
There are security updates that take months for companies to patch on their local servers & workstations... how will a known security vunerability be fixed on a "stripped" version of 2K or NT in an ATM, and how long do you think it will take them to impliment these updates, if they can update them at all?
I'm not sure of actual numbers, but I recall that IBM is heavily invested in Diebold, a major ATM manufacturer. I also recall that a large percentage of ATM machines run OS/2.
If this is true, I would expect IBM to be pushing a linux-based solution.
But then again, who knows what the banks want to buy? I just got a letter last week from my bank informing me that "for my security" they will be requiring online banking customers to use 128 bit encryption. Ack! 1998 called, they want their security back!
Yep... I pressed the wrong button (I think "Correction") when it was asking me for a withdrawl amount (I hadn't entered anything yet) and NT crashed and rebooted.
It took forever to reboot, but a security guard walking by told me "Yah, it does that all the time - wait a bit and it'll spit your card back out."
Take your pick:
http://zem.squidly.org/bsod/
http://www.piemaster.co.uk/gallery/BSOD
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
As someone who has used and stood in line to use one of these machines, let me just say that they are a far cry from the efficiency of the current ATMs. Just on a rough estimate, it takes 3-4 times longer for your average Joe Sixpack to make a transaction.
From my own experience, and knowing what I'm doing, the OS runs a good bit slower than the tried and true green on black systems. Top that off with the annoying pointy finger and IE "click" noises, and you have an example of change for change's sake.
Of course, the only reason at all they seem to be using this new system is so they can bombard you with advertising while you're using the machine.
All and all, a bad change all around.
I thought Microsoft had already convinced the courts that you couldn't strip these "vital components" of the OS out.
A friend of mine took these photos of a Win NT Natwest cash machine shutting down.
This is a bit worrying.
I actually stopped going to a particular grocery store in my city (*cough* Kroger! *ahem*) because its automated checkout system was broken so often.
They have 10 self-service checkouts running Windows, and whenever I would go there, more than half were crashed, and the rest were in other various error messages (like Mouse Not Found sort of things). That left one or two checkout people to handle a loooooong line of people trying to buy things.
Based on the success that I've seen with Windows at the grocery store, I think if my bank switches to Windows, I'll switch banks. Shame, too, since it took me a year to convince them to support Mozilla for online banking.
World's tallest building rises in the desert
Looks like it's time to pull all the cash out of the banks and go back to the Bank of Between The Matresses. Last thing we need is a stupid windows worm to have a huge impact on the finances of the United States (or any other countries that use this scheme).
Oh, and out of spite, i'll figure out a way to make my bed run FreeBSD* or something.
[*]"BSD" always makes me think of something like Bondage/Sado-Domination or something.
do() || do_not();
This is nothing new, certain banks have had NT running as for atms for a while now. Hell, the subway card dispensing machines in NYC run NT as well as the entire line of NJ Transit ticket-dispensing machines. So dont go off making silly comments of doom and destruction since guess what, they're already here and have been for a while! This is not to say that things cannot go wrong (I see the above mentioned machines being serviced fairly often and they do get errors), but lets not get too dramatic.
"What can a thoughtful man hope for mankind on Earth, given the experience of the past million years? Nothing." -Bokonon
"You have requested $40. Last week, you withdrew $50. Are you sure that you don't need the extra $10?"
"You appear to be paying your credit card bill. I see that you have $2,000 credit remaining. Would you like me to order the latest quality products from Microsoft for you?"
-Stephen
just wait until Outlook is integrated for messaging. Log into your bank account and find a message waiting from Mr.Kerberos of Nigeria with $2M waiting for you. [press 'okay' to accept wire transfer of 2,000,000,000,000]
I've heard of a couple of other scams involving ATMs. One took place at a mall in California(?) -- the theives put in their *own* ATM that recorded numbers and access codes, but didn't give out any cash. They then collected the ATM, retrieved the card stripe data and access codes, cloned some cards and went on a withdrawal spree.
Most recently I was at an ATM that had a FWD: FWD: FWD: -type email taped to it warning of a new scam; thieves that put a plastic sleeve into the card slot that somehow allows you to use the ATM but captures your card. They observe your access code, and when you leave, they remove the sleeve+card and then do a bunch of withdrawals (to zero) and ditch the card.
The latter scheme seemed dubious; the chain-letter like WARNING on the machine, and the insertion sensors on card slots I can't see allowing something jammed that far into them. Plus this was at a gas station deep in suburbia where hanging around the ATM would be suspicious, and where the ATM was in a corner making its use a complete screen of the keyboard.
In college (mid 80s) an ATM in the student union had its comm line (cat3, looked like a phone line) exoposed, and it was in a seldom-used corner. We thought it would have been possible to hook a PC to the line and capture a legit transaction. We'd then repeat the transaction and just replay the responses from the remote end. But I'm sure that even in the 80s the comm links were encrypted and not spoofable like this. But it was a reasonable idea.
..for burying my money in a coffee can in my back yard
From Microsoft on how ATM works...
...
...
ohhhhh... you mean... gotcha... nevermind.
I belive that problems can really happen, it actually hapened to me once. I'm at the store and I pay a ~500$ purchace with my card. First try : Network Error, transaction cancelled. Second time, the machine didn't even try to connect. So I get to an ATM, get the cash and go back to the shop to get my purchace. Later that day, I got to go to the bank, and to my surprise, my cash balance is lower than expected. ~500$ lower, actually the money was lost during the transaction. I go see a councellor telling about the problem, he tells me that I need the transaction paper, the paper is down the trash at the store, so I get to the store, searches the trashcan for the paper, I finally get it, go back to the bank and wait for the councellor. When I see him, he tells me that that wasn't thir faul, and that I'll have to wait a few months to get my money back. Since I had a nice sum there, I told him that I was better to have my money back in the week or that another bank swill get me a their customer. The money was there by night. Error, happens and its never the financial instittutions fault...
Colosse.
Windows ATM ? It's already happening!
I was in Croatia some year ago, inserted my card, made some choice on the screen when suddenly a BSOD appeared, the card remained stuck in the ATM and I wasn't able to have it back, even if the bank was open.
I had to continue my vacation without money since the card was mailed to my bank... in Italy...
Unfortunatelly I didn't have a camera...
I understand the standard windows=bad theme for slashdot postings, but think about it for a minute. It's in a box that's locked up tight, many with cameras around, not connected directly to the internet... so really... is there any significant security issue to worry about any more so than with the other ATMs around?
Man, you guys are like Pavlov's dogs. Taco rings the Microsoft story bell and out comes the rhetoric-spouting zealots. Sure, your points are valid security concerns. But they sure as hell aren't specific to Windows. Time for rebuttals...
.dll that gets hacked?
Point 1 - Comm line: But what happens when it turns out they've used some Win-standard encryption
Ah yes, God knows non-Windows communications software never has exploits (it's a link to the SSH exploit story).
Point 2 - UI: The more Windoze crap they add -- they're talking about "lottery tickets and soft drinks" -- the more robust the UI will have to be. Are you sure you checked that buffer overflow?
Uh, this is specific to Windows how? Microsoft isn't going to be writing the interface, the ATM companies are. And they'd be writing the EXACT same interface on whatver platform you want them to use.
Point 3 - Physical Access: But what happens when trojan-friendly Windows is the OS? Pick the lock, load the software (because there *will* be a floppy, CD-ROM, or USB port for upgrades)
Guess what - the best hackers out there are more familiar with non-Windows OSes than they are with Windows. TiVo runs Linux and it's had the shit hacked out of it. ReplayTV, while still hackable, hasn't had nearly the level of "unofficial" customization. It's a lot easier to muck around with software if you have the source to it.
Now, I'm not saying that Windows is more secure than other OSes. That thought is absurd. My point is that in a very tightly controlled environment, it can be just as secure as the next OS. My other point is that you guys are fucking insane with anti-MS zealotry. Why don't you try looking at the world without that chip on your shoulder.
I work with a lot of embedded controls systems and the use of Windows with these systems (for Human Machine Interface, data gathering, etc) is increasingly common. The security concerns related to viruses and worms are also more common.
Back when more of these systems used Unix, VMS, etc, it was not a big concern. The environment was so heterogeneous that you didn't need to worry. Now that everyone is running Windows, it becomes a huge problem.
I've been helping several of my customers lock things down and better isolate their control systems. There are plenty of ways to do this effectively but it only takes one careless tech to screw the whole thing up. While I'm confident that I can develop the infrastructure and procedures to protect the systems, I'm not confident that the procedures will be adhered to.
This has become such a large concern that many of them are reevaluating their purchasing decisions and considering turning away from Windows. The problem is that nearly all of the vendors are now producing Windows only solutions.
I would like to say that there would likely be similar problems if everyone was running Linux. While you can lock things down when you start to put the systems into the hands of less sophisticated users you will have the same problems. I see this as more of a user problem than a technology problem. The reason that these worms and viruses spread so fast is that users are not taking the procautions that they should.
Anecdotal support for this argument can be found at any large LAN party. There are always a number of bozos running Red Hat infected with all kinds of crap because they have no idea what they are doing.
You can give two guys the best woodworking equipment in the world and the best wood. One will produce an heirloom and the other will be in the emergency room getting his fingers sewn back on. There are more of the latter than the former in this world.
Guys... you have to realize these ATMs (unix, windows, other) are NOT on the public internet. They're not even on the same network as the workstation computers inside the bank. They may not even be using the same protocols, but I don't know about that.
The fact that they run Windows doesn't honestly mean much to me, because if the security experts in those banks are stupid enough to connect an ATM (or any number of other important machines internally) to any sort of public network... they're gonna get fucked at one point or another.
How often do you think a UNIX ATM's kernel/packages gets patched to fix that latest overflow discovered? Probably never.
no comment
can you imagine 60% of the ATMs in your city hitting windowsupdate.com all together?
what about 60% of the ATMs in the US hitting it?
Damn, we'll have to rename the slashdot effect into ATMeffect
-- There are two kind of sysadmins: Paranoids and Losers. (adapted from D. Bach)
In Sweden we have ATMs with Windows NT already. Twice I've seen an ATM with the blue screen of death...
Now this just doesn't make sense. Sure, I'd agree with a need to upgrade from OS/2 - even finding a way to put new software on OS/2 is going to get hard as time goes on. But why the decision to go to Windows rather than a sensible decision like embedded Linux, QNX, heck ANYTHING but Windows...
Windows does not provide the needed security, stability, or reliability needed for these applications. It does not provide real-time features that could allow certain security guarantees. The quoted reason, compatibility with "internal corporate networks" doesn't even make sense. Writing an interface for the functionality that ATMs provide might be an interesting project for an undergraduate intro-to-programming class. It's not like ATMs need to interoperate with the company Outlook Exchange server...
This sounds like a bunch of ignorant suits were herded into a room by MS salespeople and told the "benefits" of XP Embedded. I seriously doubt that anyone experienced who put any technical thought into the matter would decide to use Windows for ATMs.
-3Suns
~~~~
The Revolution will be Slashdotted
"They would prefer Windows, a platform they consider 'open' in that it is compatible with their internal corporate networks. Also, it's so ubiquitous that they can add features to all their ATMs without having to write multiple pieces of code for different machines." Bruce Schneier, a security company official, states that ATM do not operate online and are therefore not vulnerable to malicious viruses and internet attacks. No word on the blue screen of death."
ATM's don't currently operate online and this is a GOOD THING. However that goes out the "Window" if the whole point of going to Windows to the PHB's is that it's "compatible with their internal corporate networks"...
The article would seem to indicate that doing away with the very caveat that Bruce Schneier's quote uses to make this seem "okay" is part of the point of the exercise.
(shakes head in disbelief...)
Quoth he
"It's all academic anyway..."
...use NT 4.0. Most of the original security issues with it had to do with the way it was programmed rather than the OS.
It seems to me this article implies that the bankers' lack of information is a form of security.
They don't know exactly what services will be removed, and hence probably are not aware of what services could be running and producing security holes.
The fact it is customizable also seems to present itself as a major security issue. How are we to know that these customized ATMs that also deal out lottery tickets or supermarket coupons were necessarily programmed (by the banker) correctly and securely? We can deploy this en masse too? So the potential for a large scale security breach would be high?
I'm also a tad confused by the statement that it will be secure since it will not be hooked up online into a network. But it will have scriptable programming and customization?
Maybe if everything goes right, it will be perfectly secure. Are ATMs basically vaults and are we still making sure that that stays the same?
From a bank marketing analyst explaining the migration of ATM OS to windows:
"With open technologies it is easier to run different types of hardware on the same software."
and that's right, he's referring to Windows as 'open' technology.
Banks are merging and acquiring different machines, and tired of writing changes a half dozen times or more. yet they're going with the high cost option, instead of the obvious one.
a -security- company -CTO- exec gets a runner up prize for 'Dumbest Thing a Security Consultant Could Possibly Say' by suggesting that the ATMs wouldn't be vulnerable to the myriad MS worms and viruses because they dont work online.
this not even a year after Slammer -did- manage to shut down many ATMs which -also- were not online.
This Wired article reads like an Onion article.
// "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"
In Sweden, at least one major bank has used MS-DOS for their ATM:s. I saw one of these in a "funny" state (late 1999, I think) and of course took some shots...
:)
Images here
The server is a powerful Pentium 120 with a whopping 40 MB of RAM, so if it's slow, just keep banging on it..
Yeah, they have built in failsafes to keep this from happening. Just like the power companies have built in failsafes to keep a massive blackout from occuring.
I'll start working on modifying my ATM card's magnetic strip to overflow the ATMs card reader.
I think you were being funny but I actually develop ATM software and some of the code I have inherited from the previous idiots would have been succeptible to exactly that. It wouldn't get you any money unless you knew the internal protocols for dealing with the cash dispenser in addition to knowing how to exploit a buffer overflow (in which case you would likely know 10 other/better/easier ways to rip it off) but that is almost certainly a hole in more than a few machines out there.
In early May of this year I was in the drive through ATM and the machine had a stack of twenties trapped in the slot where the money comes out. Hey, you can flame me for this but I jiggled the stack out slowly enough so only the top four bills tore. Drove away with $2320.00, bought myself a new car stereo and a pair of nikeys. I'm not a saint and neither are the Bank CEO's, Flame Away.
So, are you posting from that ATM right now?
In many european countries ATMs have a secure cryptographic device attached, which stores all cryptographic keys used to encrypt data between the ATM and the ATM server. All cryptographic computations are made in that device and it is designed to "erase it's memory" if someone tries to pull it out or do something weird.
:-) :)
:-) ). The specific drivers exist and also the engineering skills. Moreover banks are very conservative, some still have DOS or OS/2 ATM's so they stick to stuff they know (usually not your favorite free OS).
Normally, the PIN you type is directly transfered (encrypted) to the secure device and does not go through the PC memory. So your PIN is pretty safe from any virus or trojan horse.
These requirements are imposed by VISA/Mastercard, because they take PIN security very seriously.
The remaining risk comes from an insider who would put a trojan horse in the ATM such that it would dispense cash automatically for example if you type a certain key combination
This does not endager your PIN though or any transaction. It's basically a problem for the bank
This is a rather complex attack, even if you have Windows, OS/2 or linux on the ATM (Windows might just make it easier). The hard part is getting into the system (these machines don't run any standard services and there are access control policies). There are easier and less dangerous ways to get money from the credit/debit card systems than hacking into an ATM in a protected environement.
One of the reasons they use windows is because it's the cheapest alternative (YES! Shock!
Blue Screen of Debt!
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
'nuff said.
I know this won't get accepted if I submit it as
s wen.reut/index.html
everything I submit gets rejected.
And because this is directly related to Windows security, well here ya go.
Also the BIG reason I submit this is the mention of the flaw. A SECURITY HOLE THAT HAS BEEN KNOWN FOR TWO YEARS and remains unrepaired..
Anyone that thinks Windows is or can be a secure enviroment lives on another planet..
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/internet/09/19/worm.
New worm targets Internet Explorer
SAN FRANCISCO, California (Reuters) --Anti-virus companies warned on Thursday of a new computer worm circulating through e-mail that purports to be security software from Microsoft Corp. but actually tries to disable security programs that are already running.
The worm, dubbed "Swen" or "Gibe," takes advantage of a two-year-old hole in Internet Explorer and affects systems that have not installed a patch for that security hole, according to Internet security company Network Associates Inc..
The malicious program arrives as an attachment to an e-mail pretending to contain a patch for holes in Internet Explorer, Outlook and Outlook Express and then mails itself off to addresses located on the victim's computer.
Relay chat also vulnerable
The worm also can spread over Internet relay chat and the Kazaa peer-to-peer network, as well as copy itself over shared networks, Network Associates said.
When it infects a computer it alerts a Web site that appears to be counting the infections, according to Symantec Corp., another Internet security outfit. The number of the counter was near 760,000 by Thursday afternoon.
Network Associates rated the worm a low risk for corporate users and a medium risk for home users. The company and rival Symantec, among others, were offering anti-virus updates that detects and removes the worm.
Microsoft has cautioned customers in the past against e-mail software updates, saying it does not distribute patches that way but rather directs them to its Web site.
Unfortunately, this is what's happening. Microsoft has done the same with banks as what they've done with most corporate entities -- 'bid' systems and training to them. The deal is that most banks store information in MS databases, most Internet bank interfaces are ASP applications (.NET will make this worse). Whether or not it's 'secure enough' is not a question...
4 1775 for a good discussion about how credit/ATM cards work and links to many resources on the subject).
Believe it or not, there are people who get paid very well to administrate Windows computers and they like Windows very much.
I'm not sure how hackable these machines will be either. ATMs use either dialup or ISDN connections to communicate centrally with banks, so they're not going to be on any public network (check out http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=2
Additionally, there isn't much room for hacking an ATM... I mean, without taking the thing apart, you have 21 keys maximum (4 - 8 keys to choose options on the screen, 10 keys for numbers, an OK key, cancel transaction key and backspace key) on most machines. Without opening the thing up, you're not going to get very far.
While Windows may not be secure over a public network with all sorts of services running, on a private direct connection with solid software, there's really no vulnerability here. You should learn a little more about how these machines work... they're not on some wide-open network hole waiting to be exploited.
ATM transactions are also encrypted, and I think we all agree that Microsoft is definitely pro-encryption.
So, before we go bitching about MS getting their stuff put on ATMs, I think we should look at the online interfaces to our accounts which are much more insecure than any ATM that will have Windows (and all the posts here seem to just be whining about how insecure it will be). I guarantee that you losing your ATM card is the most insecure thing that can happen in this regard without taking the ATM apart. A UNIX-based machine would be potentially just as vulnerable if you consider this possibility.
On the other hand, I think poorly written online banking software accessible through web-browsers on any platform is more of a security threat to your banking.
On a final note, in the Netherlands, anyway, banks give you this little device that you put your card in and it generates a hash that you have to type in every transaction. Is anybody aware of what is actually being hashed? I wouldn't think it's any private data on the card, because several banks don't require you to insert the card into the device. The best I can tell it's simply a couple of hashing algorithms hashing the current time (with about a 30 second period -- i.e. two hashes within n seconds generate the same hash) and... ? The PIN? Not sure.
Anyway, food for thought for you overly-hyped cynical freaks.
www.sitetronics.com/wordpress
"A critical flaw has been discovered in Windows ATM Edition in which customers whose PIN ends in 4 can execute arbitrary code by means of a buffer overflow."
Who doesn't like free music?
I work for one of the big four hardware manufactures. All of the new terminals run on WinXP. OS/2 is supported only on the older models.
Your money is insured people! There is a better chance someone will rip one out of a wall, then one being broken into through the OS.
After worms killed Bank of America's Windows-based ATMs and caused the greatest power outage in history you would think people would quit trying to use windows for secure environments. Windows is a desktop single user os for office workers. It is no good for any othe rpurpose (in fact being inferior even to Linux for even that purpose). For ATMs the banks should be using a secure RTOS of some sort, not a desktop OS.
Someone is going to have to put a stop to this nonsense. Our country's financial structure and infrastructure are threatened by Microsoft's predatory marketing practices and refusal to build stable secure software. The only answer is to ban their products in certain usage.
The real joke was when the Banks said that they wanted to use a more open operating sstem which is why they chose Microsoft. Yes, if you want a standard, open operating system rather than proprietary garbage use Windows. Hmm. Something wrong there. But then the Banks are using Windows for everythings else. So they find it easier to interface with Windows than anything else because that is what the MCSEs they hired know how to connect with.
Get the picture? Microsoft has made sure that their OS is a pain in the ass to connect to anything and that the more you knwo about their OS the less you know about computing in general or any other OS. Therefore the path of least resistance is to just install Windows for everything. Of course if it were me the path of least rsistance would be to tell the MS salesguy to get the fuck out of my office and tell the MS software to get the fuck off my machines. Then I would install something stable, secure, usable, and open source.
If everyone did that we would have less computing problems all around. Too bad we have idiots who still insist on using piece of shit software.
You've obviously no clue who Bruce Schneier is. He's the author of the (infamous) book "Applied Cryptography", invented the Blowfish and Twofish algorithms, has played a major role in analyzing (cracking/finding weaknesses in) major security algorithms. Bruce is the leader in this field. He is the president of Counterpane (http://www.counterpane.com/). If anybody has a clue about security, it's him. Get a clue before you post.
www.sitetronics.com/wordpress
I've had a picture of this ATM for the past 5 years on my website :)
<grub> Reading
I have been responsible for locking them down, and I don't have an entirely happy feeling about it. But that's about 3000 odd ATMs to add to the statistics!
Well, this goes to prove that Microsoft's claims in court that Windows was so tightly integrated into a single monolithic system are false. Obviously if the system is still functional enough to provide the frameworks needed to run ATM software and a modern user-interface, after being stripped down, then the same is certainly possible for mainstream use. In fact, it's likely that the reason it is stripped down is because superfluous features are a risk. Internet access and DirectX can also be seen as superfluous features.
Of course, this comes after the fact. So maybe you could argue Windows has been re-architectured since the legal trouble, but I doubt anyone with a knowledge of complicated software engineering and familiarity with Microsoft's code bases could say that under oath.
Hmmm - this doesn't make me want to run out and translate all of my electronic funds into cash or gold bars, that I methodically hide in deep holes around my property and under the mattress...(nudge-nudge, wink-wink!)
For the tin-hat wearers out there (and you know who you are):
Does anyone find it interesting that the leading ATM company, Diebold, is going into online voting, while Microsoft, a company known for its dirty dealings, is going into ATMs?
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
I have had the recent pleasure of watching the V-Com ATM machines being installed in our local convenience stores. They are PC's controlling the system, using Internet connections over TCP/IP to communicate, running Windows NT Workstation 4.0 SP6a. They have a custom keyboard missing the CTRL, ALT, and other state keys, and a touch screen interface to boot. And they can be crashed so easily it goes beyond funny to just plain sad.
The tech doing updates opens the bay, plugs in a regular keyboard, logs on to an e-mail account, and runs the patches distributed that way.
Not something I really would trust with my money!
You can have it fast, accurate, or pretty. Pick any 2.
A friend of mine who is a tech for Diebold tells me that virtually ALL of Diebold's ATMs are Win2k already. If it has a color LCD. It's Win2K.
And Diebold bought it. Diebold is going Windows.
This is scary. It's going to be so tempting to hang the ATMs on the bank's internal Internet and save money. And you know Microsoft will screw up and leave a port open, or leave something in the OS that calls home. The DES protection may protect the ATM transaction messages, but what about Windows Update. And yes, Microsoft does suggest installing remote "upgrades" and "hotfixes".
Device Estonian folks used was actually quite sophisticated. I saw short clip of it on YLE News on TV back then. From later news transmission that part where electronics and construction of device were shown was removed and on the one time they showed it some police came and moved device away from cameras. Guess cops said you're not allowed to show that on TV.
These are facts:
Device had card reader. It was placed on front of real card slot so when you inserted card magnetic stripe was read.
People who's cards got copied said it was difficult to get card out from ATM machine. This was because after transaction ejected card was partially blocked by extra reader device those guys installed.
Keypad had kinda sticks on bottom so when you pushed number on spying keyboard it pushed real button under it at the same time. Electronics connected to fake keyboard recorded your PIN and saved it to NVRAM among content of magnetic stripe it just read as well.
Card reader was connected to keypad module that had most of electronics using cable. Cable was covered with square plastic housing to keep it less obvious what was going on.
Since you got your money from ATM no-one suspected anything fishy until day or two later when your bank account was empty.
Crooks were waiting on nearby car. After some
time they went to ATM and removed their device.
Ok, those were facts. There were some claims that device had also WLAN or some other wireless connectivity so card numbers and PIN codes would have been transferred to crooks realtime. However I think that's just rumour.
Device had factory made looking PCB inside. Probably some SBC development thingy.
If there's someone with Helsingin Sanomat archive access you could probably find more details from there. HS is Finnish newspaper so that part was for finnish readers.
I've seen at least 4 ATMs over the years which have been running Windows, and made it obvious.
I had the opportunity to study one in detail, as it was installed in a hospital I was visiting at the same time as the backup generators were being tested - so the power was a bit glitchy (and there was no evidence of a UPS on the ATM).
It was made by NCR and had a fancy TFT screen. It was installed in the in-hospital branch of Barclays bank about 4 years ago. Clearly it was upset at the transition to emergency power and had locked-down.
However, when when mains power returned - it rebooted. It appeared to be a conventional industrial PC. It used a Pentium 3 450 MHz CPU and had 128 MB of RAM. (Can't remember HDD details).
It booted Windows NT4. It auto logged-in to some user account, and then started running a batch script. The conventional although rather sparse NT desktop (including such delights as internet explorer) was visible for the 10 mins that the batch script ran before the ATM software started.
This was the only one I've seen boot-up, the other 3 made their OS clear by displaying a variety of NT 'STOP' errors.
i'm in the uk. stopped off to get some cash on the way to the cinema one time and there was a Windows dialog box saying that a DHCP server could not be found! any attempts to enter a pin code would fail straight away. i wish i'd taken a photo :(
- doctea
No-one in charge ever seems to take a second look and ask "do we really need a multi-GHz processor and OS just to decode a PIN and dispense cash?". I know Windows is ubiquitous, and seems like the safe option. But it's overkill, and any time you install way more computing power than you need, you're being wasteful, as well as taking a risk. Of course it has been amply demonstrated that Windows is NOT SECURE no matter how much the Microsoft salespeople claim otherwise. Note, I'm not saying Linux is necessarily better. I'm questioning the need for a full-blown OS at all, in these applications. Hell, I could build a simple ATM using hardwired logic gates. Installing a known-insecure consumer OS in a mission-critical application is fscking stupid, and it will cause problems. The people that make these decisions are simply hoping that they'll be promoted far enough up the ladder before it happens that someone else takes the blame.
I know the reason this happens is that by using a standard system it's much cheaper; you just have to find some VisualBasic code-monkey and whip up an application. Fundamentally, the problem is that the cost of this kind of insecurity is a) not immediately apparent and b) not born by the company. The costs associated with a cracked ATM will just be passed on to the consumer. The cost of the blackout will similarly not hurt the stockholders of FirstEnergy.
The simple truth is that sometimes you need regulation and enforcement; if there wasn't an FAA you can bet your life that 777's would run on Windows XP by now, with a literal BSOD on a weekly basis. OK, that's a bit extreme. But let's look at that situation as an example... I know reliable flight-control software is expensive, so let's assume that if allowed, some company would be tempted to use cheap off-the shelf equipment and software, thus making a cheaper plane. Pretty soon they would outcompete other builders (the margins are pretty thin on those things). Remember, if the only planes available were ones that ran XP, you as a consumer would have no choice as to what you flew. If every airline had a crash that often, there would be no competive pressure to improve (that's "just a cost of doing business"). The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes competive price pressure results in a "race to the bottom" in terms of safety, quality, or reliability. I suspect that's what we're seeing here.
Human genome = 3 billion base pairs = 6 GBit. Windows + Office = 20 Gbit. Which is more impressive?
The people that make decisions are worried most about how much it's going to cost.
And you don't think it's conceivable that someone will decide that the cost of losing billions upon billions of dollars when the Windows+TCP/IP+internet connection machines are hacked isn't worth it?
They may not be very security-savvy, but they won't do a massive rollout that will leave them with a nationwide network of completely broken ATMs that divulge money at the drop of a hat. Insider addition of malicious code, while a pain, doesn't even begin to compare cost-wise with complete public access to machines with internet-enabled, free-for-download, no-knowledge-required exploits.
You can catch and arrest a malicious insider if the losses start adding up. You can't just arrest the entire US.
"A Windows platform will give us more flexibility and opportunity for future enhancements," said Julie Davis, spokeswoman for Bank of America, the biggest U.S. bank. "The Windows platform allows us to put even better protections in place. However, we won't discuss the details of our security procedures."
To answer question someone asked earlier: yes, I do believe IT in banks is run by morons, as this clearly illustrates.
A little over a year ago, I went into my bank to get $20 for lunch or something. I put my card in, typed my pin number, selected which account to get money from, and the amount.
Then all of a sudden, the screen went blue. I stared in disbelief for a moment, then a boot sequence began to display on the screen. And what did I see on the bottom of the screen, but the Microsoft trademark. I couldn't believe it. I had been bluescreened at the bank. I had to get the bank to credit the money back to my account and to get my card back (which I couldn't get back for a couple of days). So I guess you could say that I am less than thrilled about Windows running ATM's.
IANAL... But I play one on
I had the opportunity of watching one of the local banks put in an ATM at the mall. The machine had a full PC in it, along with a modem of some sort (DSL? ...I wasn't asking questions).
They installed and set up Windows 98 and then put a Java virtual machine on it...version 1.3.1 for that machine. The ATM software was built in Java.
So...what is the point of that? Why pay for a Windows license and deal with their BS? If you are just going to run a Java application, why not pick a free OS and use Java on that? What was the "value added" by Windows?
Really? What about Bank of America's ATMs
http://www.intellnet.org/news/2003/01/25/15801-1.h tml
Granted, the BoA ATMs weren't directly attacked, but it does indicate that they were online.
The company I am working for at the moment does SubHost systems and ATM software for large banks mostly in the third world market.
:-)
At the moment we have two ATM products. The first runs on OS2 systems. The code is a pig, its impossible to understand, but it works. The systems are mostly stable, and if they do go down, they just reboot and reload. (and they do go down often, we install systems in the middle of fricken nowhere, so power reliability is a joke. hell even comms is a problem when people dig up the cables to steal the copper).
We also have a win32 product that we are just starting to roll out in a big way. Biggest problem... scandisk if the machine isn't shutdown properly. Loading an atm is a PITA most of the time, but having to wait for scandisk is a real problem.
Security, not really an issue. The atms themselves are pretty stupid, they don't do much with out the subhosts say so (unless they are running offline, which only a few banks allow in our market). And getting the money out of the safe has nothing to do with the software.
Reliabilty is the biggest problem IMHO. But that said, I have an interest in staying with OS2, I would like to keep my job
Last year a Windows-based ATM appeared on the corner near my girlfriend's mum's house. Looks very pretty, colour LCD screen, landscape pictures, etc. The third time I used it there was a dialog splashed across the middle of the screen, warning me that the system was running out of virtual memory and I should close some applications...
Note that most of the London (at least, maybe England) rail status notification boards are WinNT boxes. Its often to walk in and watch these reboot, or have "Running out of virtual memory..." splashed across the route of the 16:05 the Caterham.
I agree with your primary assertion -- the statistics you quote look like they were pulled out of thin air, at best.
OTOH, the >100% number isn't outside possibility:
In other words we will have 53% more Windows installation on banking machines then total number of banking machines on the planet.
If the number of banking machines itself doubles by 2006, then it will be no problem to install Windows on 1.53 times as many machines as are in place now. That's not to say they accounted for that in the stats you mentioned, of course!
Lies, damned lies, and statistics, right?
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.