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Protests, Politics And Parties In MMORPGs
The Importance of writes "LawMeme's James Grimmelmann has written an interesting piece on protests, politics and parties in MMORPGs. In particular, he talks about the 'tax revolt' in Second Life."
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If I don't like how life is in a game, I'm free to leave at any time and start a new life elsewhere agreeing to the new rules of that society.
The naked riot of 1997 in Ultima Online:
From AlterNet:
History has shown gamers that online protest can result in positive change, as exemplified in Ultima Online's 1997 naked riot demanding bug fixes and server upgrades. Not only were some of the rioters' issues addressed by the game publisher following the incident, but the event was widely reported, and gamers worldwide have been inspired to acts of virtual civil disobedience ever since. Remember that your worst enemy, aside from integrated branding, is inaction. Electronic Arts clearly wants players of The Sims Online to be wildly imaginative, and has already recognized that the online world is unpredictable.
that in a game such as Second Life, that something of this nature would happen. It is a game, that is totally openended, which lends itself to the creation of a "government". Take Golding's Lord of the flies for example. A bunch of kids set up a "system of government." this government ultimately fails, but the premise is the same. A group of people, with a common interest get together, in this case their country is a digital domain. It really is an interesting study in anthropology, if you ask me.
Game Overdrive - Gaming News
Dating back to MUD days, could always have fun killing each other, forming groups, getting purged (ostracized) from a group, etc.
The best online game party has to be when an RPG converts to a chaos-like free-for-all deathmatch/capture the flag. OH YEAH!
--------
Free your mind.
forward microsoft all of your M$ worms, asking how the hell they could get defense contracts without bribery/extortion.
If that involves too much thought, just go streaking at SCO.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
He's definitely a talented designer also knowing the importance of a good mix of playerbase is essential to sustaining a in-game society. I can't vouch for any of the graphical MUDs he's been part of but I will always remember LegendMUD and late late nights doing quests, rescue parties, and infamous clan wars. (Knights and Grendels baby!)
I tried the star wars MMPORPG because friend insisted it was "the greatest thing ever".
Its so freaking boring...the tutorial fine, but the game, you get to a world, and it consists of guys looking for raw materials so they can level up characters, so they can then look for different raw materials so they can level up characters...
I'm only saying this because I think the mentality of people who play these games is not part of what most people consider "normal", and therefore, the current MMPORPG population is just a collection of weird geeks.
So if you try to draw a conclusion from that population, its a bad idea.
I can't believe this got posted. Man wait till the Ayn Rand and Libertarian whacko's get a hold of this thread. Man is it gonna hit the fan tonight
...that's a complete load of crap.
Lord Of The Flies is a book that illustrates how easy it is for us to fall into anarchy without the presence of a society to keep us in check.
The book isn't about failing systems of government, it's about how, in the absence of any form of government, we quickly we fall back to a selfish "survival of the fittest" state with the strong preying on the weak.
The boys don't try to set up a system of government, they try to live by the rules that society has taught them. But, pretty soon, they realise that without society watching over them, those rules are easily disposed of - and weaker figures like Simon and Piggy suffer as a result.
Witness the near-deification of the conch, the hunting, the return to "normal" behaviour when rescue arrives, etc. This isn't a book about government or society, it's a book about a lack of government and the breakdown of society.
No book more clearly illustrates the mentality that turns ordinary people going about their daily business into a rioting, blood-thirsty mob than William Golding's masterpiece. When it comes to examining how easily we can descend into anarchy, LOTF is the bible.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Meanwhile, US citizens are barely registering a whimper of protest at the draconian laws passed every day in the name of "patriotism" and "protecting the homeland".
It's pretty sad that people organize "protests" in a fucking -game- but won't stand up for their rights in real life. What is the matter with you people?
Please help metamoderate.
Wow you're right! People like Bill Gates are being unfairly treated. Maybe, we should even give him some of our taxes for being wealthy.
Dickhead.
This game tax was supposed to fix runaway inflation by changing behavior by giving 'players an incentive to get rid of things they don't really want any more.' In the real world people are getting sick of taxation as social engineering. Taxation should be about funding the government.
Reminds me of a time in one game I play called Dragonrealms, where they changed how some aspect of experiance in the game worked, so all the healers in the game refused to heal any wounds. Between that and the general chaos it caused, the experiance system was changed back quickly. Sometimes a little in game riot goes quite far.
I do believe your logical chain above is rendered entirely worthless by this bad link: "As a result, being wealthy is less desirable" The rich do not got rich just so they can save society. They get rich so that they can ignore most of it.
The sad part about this is that it isn't a troll!! Republicans really believe in what they say. "Can you believe that damn government wants 50% of my paycheck? How am I going to buy that new Yacht now!?"
1/7 people doesn't have health care; 1/5 doesn't have auto insurance. Look at the big picture.
I can understand this point of view if you are part of that 1% who benefit from regressive taxation, but otherwise, I'd seriously go meet some inner-city working-poor people and tell them rich people deserve tax breaks. See what they say.
I can see why you posted as AC.
More than enough BS
Cancel your subscription. That's what I did with Star Wars Galaxies. The game clearly isn't ready for release.
Trolls dont like to be Flamebait, because they burn so well. Protect our Troll heritage!
It is your own argument that is rendered worthless by a lack of reading comprehension. I said nothing about "saving society" or altruism. I simply said that society as a whole benefits from the projects and enterprises funded by the wealthy. If the rich are punished by having more of their property and earnings taken away than others, it will be less desirable for people to become rich, and there will be fewer private funds available for projects such as independent media, manufacturing, mass distribution, and yes, mass entertainment such as the game consoles many people here love. I doubt the state will fund a public video game console project.
And you think that federal, state, and local governments taking 50% of your paycheck is fair?
If so, then you have been brainwashed by leftists.
You utilize a classic socialist argument, the economy as zero-sum game. The resources collected by the wealthy can be used to generate even greater benefits for society, such as easier access to things like information and a wider variety of products. I doubt a poor person living off the public teat could fund the businesses that build your home, deliver your food to the grocery store you visit, and finance the research that led to your computer.
You really should thank the rich. It is because of hard-working people, self-made millionaires and billionaires, that you can enjoy the prosperous, advanced society you live in. Even the communist Chinese are coming to realize the benefits of capitalism and wealth.
who are you? Robin Hood? take it easy...
I can understand this point of view if you are part of that 1% who benefit from regressive taxation, but otherwise, I'd seriously go meet some inner-city working-poor people and tell them rich people deserve tax breaks. See what they say.
...or, maybe not. Try reality for a change.
Yes, because redistribution of wealth has ended poverty, war, and want. The poor are well-off, the hungry are fed, and the sick are healed because the government took ever-greater shares of your hard-earned dollars. Socialism worked!
How about both of you stop flinging sensationalized rhetoric and say something meaningful and well thought out?
Most of the rich do not just have money sitting in a vault somewhere. Rather, they put it to work in an attempt to generate more money. This include hiring people, and paying them for their work.
Mod this up.
Hammer of Truth
So when will things change, and people stop considering such social experiments to be "games"? Surely by now we're starting to see that the society represented electronically in these MMORPGs is no less valid than the physical world...
Personally, I've been caught up in a couple of these MMORPGs and while I've always managed to keep the boundaries between the "game" and "real-life" nice and clear not all players manage to do this. To some of them, their on-line "life" is just as important as what most people consider to be reality.
Also consider that one of the key boundaries between virtual and physical worlds is gradually breaking down - money. It is far easier to purchase items, assistance, support and knowledge for these "games" than it was just a couple of years ago. Now that people are willing to spend real-world money on not-so-real-world commodities, does this make them less of a game?
Several years back, the Lake Superior shard (UO game server) was having serious problems. So a bunch of folks who played on that server hopped over to the Atlantic shard to protest. For whatever reason, it was red dress instead of going naked: Screenshot 1 Screenshot 2, they put us in jail
Of course, naked protests aren't unheard of. I don't recall what this one was about, but we were a merry band of nude archers: Naked Posse
Frigax
"BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.
The addiction to online gaming is real, and has existed since long before Everquest. MUDs, a text-based role-playing game, were every bit as addictive and dangerous.
It was quite disturbing throughout my time at university seeing fellow students drop out due to these games. Hell, even I had problems with them - I missed plenty of assignment deadlines all in the name of some rare sword.
This isn't going to change, but hopefully society as a whole will learn to acknowledge how strong a role these games can play in some people's life. Perhaps they will even become a tool for creating new communities, merging the physical with the virtual...
You missed the point. They're not taxing the rich, they're taxing the productive. The tax is actually agressively anti-progressive, oddly enough.
You tax rich people to keep them from hoarding and just leeching off society. Progressive taxation is supposed to encourage the financing of large projects, as you pay less the more money you dump right back into charities or museums or whatever. If they lack the creative energy to act as a positive force on society, like most rich people, the government takes a portion of their money and does it for them.
This is not what the game was doing. The game was charging people in-game money for building intricate stuff that uses up the company's real-world server resources. The people who this affects most are the in-game philanthropists who spend their money on public-use cool stuff. The protesters are arguing that the company is hurting itself by discouraging the insane art projects that slow down the servers but attract new users needed to pay to upgrade the servers.
There is no point about so-called "progressive" taxation, because there is no economy for anybody to try and progress, or fail to progress, there's just a company that doesn't want to risk scaling up their MMORPG.
...what with its open-ended gameplay, subscriber content creation, and clever Linux-based server-side technology. I was preparing to sign up for the free trial when I discovered it only runs on XP/2000. Pfffft!
The wealthy don't fund much at all.. the working people do. In the game it was the creative people that were actually working to make big cool things for everyone to enjoy. (Why did you think they were wealthy?) Seldom do the wealthy get off their fat asses and go out and create new cool stuff. Employees think of the ideas, engineers and scientists make it possible, artists make it look good, factory workers make the parts, and construction workers build it. Even the janitors are making an effort to keep things flowing well for those working on the projects. It's all paid for either by Joe Consumer or by tax dollars. The CEO and stock holders aren't contributing much of anything to the project.
Don't misunderstand me to say that nobody that is wealthy contributes. There are people who have become wealthy by their own creativity. It's just not the fact that most of those that are wealthy at any given time are of that sort. Not even most of the neuvo rich. I'm sad to say that most of the self made rich do it by knowing the right people and the right legal/business loopholes and being somewhat ruthless. They might be clever but they aren't contributing much to society.
As in this game the goal of the creative people wasn't to get rich, it was to be creative. Released from the ritual robbery by the wealthy many working class artists, scientists, and engineers would act those needs out in real life. Instead you end up with these people making brochures and researching the taste of toothpaste. Yeah, so lets give all the money to the rich. It helps society a lot that they can afford three large homes and a dozen fancy cars.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
I would really like to see a MMORPG be designed with a pay controled government in place. Imagine if there are a few hundred variable rules in place that contrain things like taxes, lang usage, skill acquisition, hunting, etc. Now, you have a congress/parliment set up to control these variables through bills. Every 6 months of so, you can have an online election to elect the president and a congress whose size is based on population. Online worlds are already divided into districts, cities, servers, etc. Now you can have direct action in demorcracy.
It's not stupid. It's advanced.
Skip that game trial.....
Where the Music Matters
When I tried to persuade a waring faction of savages to lay down their weapons and join me in peace, I quickly found myself splattered against a nearby wall by a stray rocket. Awakening in a nearby chamber (Damn cloning, I protested against that, too!) and proceeded to shout my pleas to pacify the barbarians shooting at each other. After several hours of this and quit, there's no use playing a roleplaying game with so little character interaction and virtually no economy.
Quake had to be the worst MUD I'd ever played!
Banaaaana!
Which is exactly why we have progressive taxation, you unconscionable idiot. We tax income because income is what you have left over after failing to reinvest your money in projects and enterprises that benefit society as a whole. The more income someone has, the less they must agree with what you wrote, therefore, we tax them more heavily in an attempt extract some value from a person who is otherwise a complete and utter drain on society.
If they are taxing just because things are so easy to get that they aren't fun any more then why not make them harder to get? Or make them wear out with use or time. Seriously, that is why consumer goods break so often.. because otherwise people wouldn't need to buy them very often.. so huge corporations wouldn't exist to supply people with new can openers on a regular basis. We could make these things last longer but we choose not to. So do the same with your game.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
At some point you are going to realize that there is more to life than productivity and wealth... Unfortunately most people on reach that state after they are in their 50's...
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
Except, of course, that its not true. The bottom HALF of the population pays so little in income tax that the majority of them actually receive a positive cash benefit back. Meanwhile, I pay around 30% in income tax and have a total tax burden over 50%. Nowhere am I given greater say over the society (one vote, that's it) or any special benefits over and above being protected from the Big Bad Canadian Military.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.
What a pack of nonsense.
The rich got rich by taking it from the poor? I suppose you could keep telling yourself that; makes a handy rationalization for overly confiscatory tax rates. A suitable punishment for the "evil" rich. Make sure, when you discuss this issue with others, that you use the word "deserve" repeatedly... it's an important buzzword for those attempting to justify taking away wealth that others have earned.
Rich people didn't get rich by being stupid; they don't put their money under a mattress. They repatriate their dollars back into the market, into banks, and into investments and products. Money those banks can then lend... money that supports the manufacturers of the products they buy, and money that provides venture capital to new start-ups. That money doesn't leave the market, it goes right back into the economy, where it employs people and pays for goods and services.
Raping society? Please. What a ridiculous pack of anonymous flamebait. You're giving the AC label a bad name.
How about Canada? I welcome my socialist friends up north...
:)
Is the "War" on Drugs getting you down?
Is the "war" on terrorism depressing you?
Is your Imperial government making you uneasy?
Are you worried about your education systems?
Are you scared of walking in the "wrong" part of town?
Fear not... Canada is the answer to all*...
* Please check in guns at the border. Thank you
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
The problem is that "means based" doesn't really require any means. Those on the receiving end should do their part, and if they're not willing to sell their car to pay for their medicine, I'm not willing to sell mine for their benefit.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.
ok...but once Patriot Act II passes (which will happen as soon as another terrorist attack happens) we'll see where you stand...
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
The idea behind redistribution of wealth, a set of programs which were gutted in the US during the most prosperous times in the history of the country, is to give purchasing power to those who lack it in tougher times. You see, people who lose their jobs or take severe paycuts, something i think the /. community can identify with, will spend any wealth redistributed to them by society. They will take that social welfare check right to a store and buy stuff.
If the wealthier people in society keep that money, they will be much much less likely to spend it. they will tend to save it or invest in stocks. If the needy get wealth they use it to purchase and hopefully drive the markets, if the wealthy get it they sit on it and the markets continue to slow. We call them the rich because they already have lots of money, money that they are not USING. If they wont use it lets give it to someone who will.
If you dont believe this works, i suggest you look into the beginnings of social security, welfare, and medicare and see how they came about and the improvements in the lives of so many people that were brought about by them.
Perhaps the solution to the tax is to incorporate some form of manufacture, sales and profit. One would have to limit or provide cost to the manufacturing/labor to make this work. The primary problem with the inflation, it seems, in all these games is that the money supply is virtually limitless once you know how to get it. Instead, stop the money supply (for the most part) and rely on commerce to take over.
:)
In a game like Ultima or other combat based games, this might have to be revised but it seems like Second Life is more about life. So anyways, your stadium is taxed more but people come and visit it and you charge for it. This makes you a net profit.
Okay, I realize I may be missing some of the boat since I don't play MMORPGs but I think it would be vastly interesting to model these RPGs in a manner similar to real life. This would make it even more interesting if/when "twists" are thrown in as they might reflect interesting revelations about what might happen in real life. Or even "playing" with economics a little.
By the way, in the Ultima or combat style MMORPGs, you could still limit the money supply but one would need to realistically have the villages sacked every once in a while by a band of orcs, dragons or whatever. Then the good warriors have to go and get it back.
Finally, I've always had an interesting theory about economics. The old line is that nothing happens until something gets sold. Yet in many ways, government focuses on "taxing" things which of course reduces the amount of items sold. I propose an interesting experiment to be to reduce taxes for spending a certain portion of your income within a month. For example, let's say 50% of your income within a month. This means that the poor would likely be spending this amount anyways (and be subject to those savings) and the rich would be encouraged to spend more to help vitalize the economy. I'm sure I haven't thought this entirely through yet but I'd be interested in hearing some responses to this. I get this feeling, however, that the criticisms can be worked through.
By the way, this would have to be matched through some accounting system that matches bills to taxes and of course would require automation to make it viable. This may involve privacy concerns but, of course, you could opt out if you wanted to keep something private or come to some other solution.
At any rate, ideas like this could be interesting to test in a real economically based, paper-money limited, MMORPG.
Sunny
Be my Friend
-DNA, Duh.
>Employees think of the ideas, engineers and scientists make it possible
Who pays them?
>artists make it look good
Who buys expensive art?
>factory workers make the parts
Who pays the fatcat union wages?
>construction workers build it
For whom are they building it?
All those questions are answered quite simply:
They're doing it for the man with the money. Because they want some of that money.
>The CEO and stock holders aren't contributing much of anything to the project.
You really might want to look at how a corporation operates. I'm thinking you don't have a grasp of it.
>They might be clever but they aren't contributing much to society.
I disagree. Without the wealthy, those other jobs wouldn't exist.
Notice that whenever the wealthy do better, there's more jobs? It's easier to get money?
Notice that whenever there's a recession, the wealthy get screwed first, then you?
>Released from the ritual robbery by the wealthy many working class artists, scientists, and engineers would act those needs out in real life.
Highly unlikely. None of these people could afford the tools necessary for their jobs. None of these people individually have the skills to produce those tools themselves. The only solution to that conundrum is communism, and that doesn't work.
>It helps society a lot that they can afford three large homes and a dozen fancy cars.
Who built the homes? The cars?
If they didn't buy homes and cars, it seems it would satisfy you, but it would put a LOT of people out of work.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
...we would protest more if when we all get together and tried to do anything the wouldn't game lag...lag some more and finally sbexe out. (For those of you lucky enough to never have to experiance the sb exe error, it's a fatal error resulting in the process being removed from memory, aka a crash)
Anyone know if it's gotten better. Haven't played in a few weeks but have heard from a friend it is a bit better, probably due to the fact enough people have left where the server side has a lighter load it can handle, not that there was ever enough players to have what should be considered a large load under these cirsumstances.
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
>We tax income because income is what you have left over after failing to reinvest your money in projects and enterprises that benefit society as a whole.
Then why is it when you invest in such things you are taxed?
Your thinking would require a negative sales tax, which I believe exists nowhere on earth; although I agree, it would make complete sense to make sales tax operate in such a fashion. Either that or work it the other way around, tax sales, don't tax income. But double dipping just isn't right.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Summer? I live in Canada, you insensitive clod!
The AC is obviously ignoring the fact that when they build those malls and Wal-Marts, they hire people to work in them. Those big bad rich people have just created a nice stack of jobs for the community.
It's easy to look at the statement "Joe Bob owns a mall," and immediately assume he's making money hand over fist. What about utility cost? What about employment costs? What about security costs? Maintenance? And the biggie: Liability insurance.
Now look at how many people Joe Bob has put to work. Those people take Joe Bob's money and feed their families. They buy cars. They get health care. And when people buy things in Joe Bob's mall? That money goes back into the economy and goes to help those that are working to produce those products.
Someone has an extremely sheltered and liberal-influenced view of how the economy works.
--Obyron
Well, I'd have to disagree with that one. I can only drink so much water, use so much electricity, and drive so many miles in a day (all of which I pay for, either directly, or indirectly). I'd also say that my vote doesn't count for any more than joe the garbage collector's vote.
Why ought the rich to pay a greater percentage? Because they are bad people? Because they stole it? Because they don't deserve it? Because they perspire more than other people? Why? I've yet to have any higher-tax-rate proponent explain that to my satisfaction. A flat tax that kicks in at a certain income level is the epitome of fairness... everyone above a certain income level pays the same cut. They pay different amounts, of course, but the percentage is the same.
I didn't steal my wealth from anyone... I worked hard for it, and I continue to do so. I won't be told that I somehow don't deserve to enjoy it, or that I'm wrong to be well-off.
The progressive taxation argument is simple class warfare, and plays on the baser emotions of jealousy and envy, nothing more. As I listen to the lefitsts of the world, I wonder if I somehow missed something, I wonder if I'm going to wake up tomorrow and find out that I'm an armed robber instead of a healthcare professional... listening to some democrats, you'd think that's how I made my money.
I refuse to accept the moral aspersions that are thrown in my direction, simply because I make a good income... as if we are all idle rich who inherited it, and lay around all day putting on airs and abusing the "less fortunate." I utterly reject the implied lack of moral fitness that some want to tie to wealth.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
Are you sure you aren't basing your beliefs on a Simulacra?
Natural disasters and invading armies, that destroy infrastructure and bury goods forever. Little gremlins that slip past and thief gems and amulets. These would tend to spice up the games.
You are one pompous asshole. You sound like a prick born with a silver spoon up your ass. Another Bill Gates. Another George Bush. Fuck all of us "poor" people. Fuck it that I have to drive 25minutes to get to my job that barely makes ends meet. No, fuck me right buddy? I should sell that car and walk then eh? Sure, I'm positive that a bus comes along this rural road to my worn down aging house to bring me to work. Oh, wait. It doesn't. I need a car. If I don't have a car, I don't eat.
I haven't had healthcare in years. I need about 2200$ worth of dental work, no dental insurance either.
Soooo sorry your rich ass is being burdened by us "loser poor people". Jesus man, get off your fucking high horse.
Wasn't a book published, under Tom Clancy's name (im pretty sure he didn't actually write any of it) in the Net Force series dealing with a creation of a online community? Except that community did create its own goverment, its own everything and tried to make itself a real country or a real state, and not abide by the US laws? How soon will it be before it comes to this? -pix
"an eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind"
The sad part is that I know many people who can't afford auto insurance, yet somehow manage to afford pot, smokes, and booze. Don't you think that it's fucked up that it's legal for your employer to test you for drug use while it's unconstitutional to conduct drug tests for people on welfare? If you want to support the druggies, go ahead and donate all your possessions to them instead of telling us what to do.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
What makes it your dime?
You worked for it, you say? Would you be willing to split your work AND income 50/50 with someone unemployed? No? Then it's only your dime because you grab it and refuse to let go.
--
*Art
The middle class pays the largest share of taxes, and we're usually the ones to least benefit from a tax cut. Why are people who paid NO FUCKING TAXES getting a tax refund? Let's call it what it really is. Welfare.
-- Will program for bandwidth
What are online revolts and revolutions? They are the resolution to a paradox of a society that encourages and rewards individualism, but at the very same time generalizes, stereotypes, and also rewards conformity. In other words, we tell individuals that they are important, but at the same time, thanks to the proliferatino of mass media, Americans now have a greater perception of those around them than anyone else at any time in history. Prior to this, the world was contained to largely a town, or section of a city. Now, however, Americans are individuals, yes, so we are told. But we also feel terribly small when we realize that we play such a small role in the perceived world around us (the world that mass media presents us with). We are made to believe that individuals are of the highest importance. The paradox, though, is why do our actions mean so little? If we, as individuals, are as important as the American idealogy would have us believe, why then are our actions meaningless as individuals? Why is the mass media more concerned with seeminlgy everything around us, except ourselves? The paradox? Individuals are important. But individuals are also ignored. If I am important, why can I not apply this level of importance to the world around me? If the individual is penultimate in American society, why am I completely ignored by society when I want lower taxes? Why can I not change and control the environment, if I am as important as everyone tells me? The people in this online games have realized, either on a conscious level or otherwise, that if they cannot change the immediate environment around them, if their individual actions do not mean anything in the immediate world, all that is required is to switch environments, change worlds. It is in online games that their importance as individuals is recognized alongside the importance of their actions. They are both individual and impacting. It's important to note that American society has always moved in this direction; gangs, cliques, etc, are all manifestations of this. But online games give the illusion of incredible impact. They match the importance of individualism with the importance of impact. The players in Second Life are creating a revolt! A revolt! How is that possible within the confines of the real world? What does a nude sit-in in the real world accomplish? A novelty at best, and nothing at worst. But a nude sit-in in Britannia? That accomplish something. I believe that what is now on the absolute fringe of society will gradually make its way into mainstream. They are the perfect solution to the American paradox of individuals and impact, they manage to squeeze by both and integrate these two elements into a world where an individual's personhood and their actions are as important.
1. When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend.
2. Do not eat iPod shuffle.
Hit the HTML submit button instead of the extrans preview:
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What are online revolts and revolutions? They are the resolution to the paradox of a society that encourages and rewards individualism, but at the very same time generalizes, stereotypes, and also rewards conformity. In other words, we tell individuals that they are important, but at the same time, thanks to the proliferatino of mass media, Americans now have a greater perception of those around them than anyone else at any time in history. Prior to this, the world was contained to largely a town, or section of a city. Now, however, Americans are individuals, yes, so we are told.
But we also feel terribly small when we realize that we play such a small role in the perceived world around us (the world that mass media presents us with). We are made to believe that individuals are of the highest importance. The paradox, though, is why do our actions mean so little? If we, as individuals, are as important as the American idealogy would have us believe, why then are our actions meaningless as individuals? Why is the mass media more concerned with seeminlgy everything around us, except ourselves? The paradox? Individuals are important. But individuals are also ignored. If I am important, why can I not apply this level of importance to the world around me? If the individual is penultimate in American society, why am I completely ignored by society when I want lower taxes? Why can I not change and control the environment, if I am as important as everyone tells me?
The people in these online games have realized, either on a conscious level or otherwise, that if they cannot change the immediate environment around them, if their individual actions do not mean anything in the immediate world, all that is required is to switch environments, change worlds. It is in online games that their importance as individuals is recognized alongside the importance of their actions. They are both individual and impacting. It's important to note that American society has always moved in this direction; gangs, cliques, etc, are all manifestations of this.
But online games give the illusion of incredible impact. They match the importance of individualism with the importance of impact. The players in Second Life are creating a revolt! A revolt! How is that possible within the confines of the real world? What does a nude sit-in in the real world accomplish? A novelty at best, and nothing at worst. But a nude sit-in in Britannia? That accomplishes something.
I believe that what is now on the absolute fringe of society will gradually make its way into mainstream. They are the perfect solution to the American paradox of individuals and impact, they manage to squeeze by both and integrate these two elements into a world where an individual's personhood and their actions are equivalent in importantance.
That is, the article's premise and presentation.
greetings,
on the vein of opensource, have someone else try something like this:
1)A team of developers create, design and code the game, which is opensource. Lets call them The Founding Fathers
2)People who want to play, must pay a fee. This fee is to maintain the server, and pay the developers -as usual
3)After a period, comes election times. other developers step in, make their new propossal to the game and gammers vote.
4)So, this guys take the administration and improvement of the game on his hands, they rule the game and get paid for it trough the gammers fees.
5)GOTO 3... and you have a ever evolving game with democracy.
Just how much federal and state tax didi you pay last year? If you are actually poor unless you live in Alabama I bet you paid no taxes last year otehr than sales and fuel taxes. Quit whining and blaming everyone else for you tough luck and fucking move were you can earn some better money.
Oh by the way internet conectivity is a luxury too cancel it. You will be suprized how fast you can get your teeth fixed. They sure as hell are not going to get better on their own.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
No since it references the topic not mod it off topic.
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
Trees take longer than a day to grow, you fuckwit!
I can't believe anyone cares about what happens in Second Life. The 'game' is a crock of shit, and bugged five ways from Sunday. It's like those horrible old 3D IRC clients pretending to be an actual game.
If you want to play in an online community-style game that has an actual GAME to it, check out Puzzle Pirates
Or do you mean some other Mike Moore?
Don't you know insuliting Michel Moore at Slashdot will get you modded -1 some nasty something or other. The man is a Saint! How dare you insult his over ample pompus commie pinko ass? Timmy how long before you mode this down? You pinko little dork. If you wonder where your post go in Timmies "articles" He mods anything he disagrees with out of the threads. Especially if they are true. This post will be -1 in about 30 seconds but I will have pissed him off which is good. You should piss his narcissistic ass off as well every chance you get. Perhaps he will grow up.
On the contrary, I'm *NOT* whining about my situation. Not in the least. I'm bitching about pompous assholes who feel that because they where born rich, that the rest of the world should be as well, and screw those who weren't. This also hasn't *always* been my situation, it's the way it is right now. I too have paid a big chunk to the US Gov in taxes in years past. But, due to what's called "grey accounting" I not only recoup 100% of all taxes paid, I also get a nice bonus from the Government. I've received refunds anywhere from $8,500 to $21,000. Like I said, I live a currently meager lifestyle, but I'm not saying I hate it - I manage to pay my bills and such. And when the year rolls over and I get my W2 I'll be in for a nice little treat from the Gov, typically 4-5 times what I actually paid in taxes.
I never blamed anyone for my bad luck.. I don't have any bad luck. I can't afford to move either. You must be another one of those "I've never had to worry about money in my life" types as well. It's a shame, to never know how the other side lives. Oh, you can sit and bitch about how these allegedly "poor" people are "stealing" your money via taxes. But it's not the poor people, not in the least. If anything, it's people like me, the ones who practice "grey accounting" that are taking your money.
Oh, and about my internet access. Perhaps you've heard of companies like Juno, NetZero, Access-4-Free, DotNow, etc that offer free access? I think I pay about 25$ or so yearly for my access to the internet in total. Not to mention WiFi's I borrow from time to time when I need a bit more speed for things.
Who pays employees? The consumer. Who is the consumer? Employees.
Does art have to be expensive to be worthwhile? Most art is purchased again by consumers. Everything from music to movies. Even stupid looking little nick nacks.
When is the last time you worked in a factory? Very few of those working class people could be considered fat cats. Again the consumer is paying their wages.
Construction workers are building for the masses. The masses are again the working class consumers. Very little construction work is done entirely for the wealthy. Not that the wealthy don't try their best.. they like owning lots of big houses and things like that.
Money is worthless without something to spend it on. Without working class people it'd just be worthless paper and 1's and 0's. Most people don't work because they want money. They work because they want to live. The average employee wants a place to live, medicine, food, and to send their kid to college. They get those things from other working class people. The wealthy just make themselves middlemen to skim profit off the top of each transaction for themselves.
Yoy honestly think that without the wealthy people wouldn't need homes, food, medicine, or schools? It's because of need that these jobs exist. Not because somebody has created the jobs out of thin air to provide an amussing pass time for those that want to work.
Whenever the wealthy do better there are more jobs? Funny, I saw a lot of CEO's laying off workers so they could get hefty bonuses. This helped stockholders and upper management. How did it help the employees? Yeah, Enron made us all wealthy.
I see lots of the wealthy unable to pay their rent or buy food. Damn yeah I feel sorry that they were the first to be screwed by the recession. I'll go outside and tell some homeless people that they should feel better because the wealthy are screwed more than they are.
Do you think people can't work together without wealthy people telling them how to do it? Just because people individually lack the skills to do something doesn't mean they can't form a group to do it. Everything from charities to Linux are done that way - without stockholders.
If you can't see a balance between capitalism and socialism without screaming communism then there is something very wrong with you. Just because people don't have a corporation telling them what to do doesn't mean they need a government telling them either.
Who built the homes? Working class people. Who builds cars? Working class people. I've yet to see stockholders out doing either.
I don't care if the wealthy buy homes and cars. They can feel free to buy what they want. Somehow I can't see them buying fewer homes or cars as putting people out of work though. They're going to be out of work because 20% of the population reduces their purchases of luxury items? That other 80% of people aren't still going to need the essentials of life? Sure.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
No matter what the tax rate, Second life is at least four times better then Half-Life is.
If you cannot afford food and clothing, you are not paying 50% taxes. If you're in that bracket and still cannot afford the essentials, you need to avoid the casino and the race track.
More than enough BS
Yes. I do believe that it is fucked up that employers can discriminate based on income class. There are far worse discriminations involved in Human Resources that do not pertain to this thread that I will not mention.
Your logic perplexes me. I doubt that everybody who is on welfare is a druggie. I have some friends who are the people you were talking about (drugs, booze, pot). They are worthless...yes, but the working poor are not worthless. They are just honest people who cannot afford the essentials.
More than enough BS
And what would that be, pray tell?
(OT, I know, but...) Would someone seriously tell me why people post stuff like this? I'm not super offended or anything, I just don't get it, really...
is it like a weird sexual fetish or can't they find alt.troll or are they really grade-schoolers or what? (The trolls at Fark usually stay on topic at least, and sometimes they are even subtle...)
TIA!
Nowhere in these united States of America is there any talk of a society. Now, there is a Preamble known as We, the People. When the States fell, a new union was created that had a strong federal government by law (not of law, known as the United States) that created a contractual citizenship known as citizen of the United States. The Republic had Preamble that was inclusive for the People while the newly created democracy has a corportation that issues security agreements known as citizen of the United States and as a party to the Trust-62 you are defined as a vessel.
Still, there lacks a society that you speak of. Is a society somthing that was left in Britain or *gasp* Soviet Russia? We, the People are no longer freemen and verry few of us exist anymore. If you want a society, you should recognize that there isn't one here. We now have a gestapo police state run by a corporation known as the United States, and it is a bankrupt entity that lacks commercial liability so nothing will stop its encroachments until a Revolution occurs or it is bought back by us few We, the People. Every legal element created by the United States is one more peice of freedom removed from the ignorant citizens of the United States. If you want to be a freemen, you should derive your rites elsewhere; try praying to Jesus Christ and Jehova, they are good.
that's a paddling.
How is rasing my taxes going to force the 1/7th person to try and get health care or provide it for them? How is rasing my taxes 1/5th person going to help those who choose not to have auto insurance let alone provide it for them? (Like not driving without it is a good start.) Who is forcing any one to live in the inner city when they would be better off in a rual area? How is taxation going to help them get free of their simi-self imposed cycle of poverty?
Oh by the way we are a single income family whose income comes from teaching school. We are required to pay mandatory union dues that go to finance the democratic party and do very little else. Oh yes we live in California and are considered "rich" by the State and federal governments, liberals and the Democratic party.
Tax the rich my ass, You and your ilk will never get enough taxes to staisfy your political what ifs, socialist fantasy and pipe dreams. You don't even know who the freeking rich are and totally miss the fact theat the poor don't pay taxes other than sales and fuel tax most places.
Someone mod this asshole for the flamebait he is.
Mod this for the -1 flamebait it is. -2 informative my ass. Yhis is typical partisan left right flamebait crap. Mod are you on crack? Is it just Timothy letting his bias show through again with his modding? This asshat wouldn't know an "inner city poor person" if they came up and shook his hand.
People move to cities to find jobs. That's why cities are so huge/dense in 3rd-world countries. There are even less jobs in rural areas than in cities.
Taxes are a burdon for everyone. They are just more of a burdon for people who are better able to pay them (have a higher net income).
P.S. Run your posts through Microsoft Word for spelling errors. Some words were hard to "translate"
More than enough BS
I do split it 50/50. My tax burden is right around the 50% mark. Of course, the fact that I do in fact do the work does make it my dime. Socialist dogma doesn't interest me in the slightest.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.
Sorry, AC's don't get MOD 1 or MOD 2.
Do you understand what my post was saying? Here in MN, if you're paying 50% taxes, you're making $150,000 per year (and we have high income taxes). If you cannot pay for food/clothing off of $75,000 take-home, you really need to find a financial advisor.
More than enough BS
Not hardly. My parents worked their ass off to put me and my two siblings through school. I use that gift from them to make a good life for myself, not cry that I deserve more handouts from the gov't. Here's a couple free clues: I'm not white, while I'm in the top 5% income that's from my and my parents work involved. Hey guess what, I drive 30 minutes to work and if I don't have a car I don't eat either! Except I'm not receiving gov't handouts. Instead, 50 cents of every dollar I make goes off to pay for the handouts of some little scumbag like you.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.
I wish people would apply this kind of energy to the real world instead of frittering it away on mindgames. It could have been real useful, say for example, in Florida around November 2000.
Taxes are levied in Second life because of finite server resources(ALL content is server-side, the client download is a mere 11mb). A server can handle x amount of objects, and tax levels are calculated based on things like total available land, and other factors.
For example, i have an empty "sim" (one game world unit, in an interconnected grid of sims), and i first want to buy some land in that sim. I buy a 32x32m plot of land for x amount of money. Now, you get taxed for that land, since its a limited server resource. Now i want to build say a house. I "rez" in 4 cube primitives, shape them to form walls. Each item costs y money to bring in to the world, then has a tax for stying in the work for an extended period of time, based on a variety of factors. Basically anything that costs server ram and CPU cycles, you get taxed for. You would have to play the game to fully understand the results this actually has, but as the base of it.. is theres a finite amount of resources, and the rules keep them form being exploited.
Second life is a game where the players make their own content. Theres a scripting language and primitives based modeller. You can import textures and sounds, and create what you like. Dont want to create? no problem. Its a game you play as you like. Its a paradigm shift, and worth your time to take a look at if you want a truly new gaming experience.
"Stuff... In my home!? NEVER!" - Zim on Invader Zim
"I want the toilet seat!" - Little Dog on Two Stupid Dogs
I actually went to college next to the largest Somali community in the United States. I've also taught (volunteer work) 3rd-5th grade to students at a charter school in the basement of a government housing project. Oh yeah, and I spent a month or so in Cuba, studying music and interacting with the people of a country with a per-capita income of $2,300. Were you expecting the average slashdot joe?
More than enough BS
Second Life?
Are the creators sure these people had a 'first' life?
[Chief Wiggum] Mod it down, boys! [/Chief Wiggum]
- I am made of meat.
LOTF is just well-dressed propaganda, teaching youngsters that without the guiding adult hand they inevitably descend into primitive violence. No coincidence it's such a favorite of teachers.
Life's real stories of youngsters abandoned shows something quite different. In the Polish ghettos, Nazi camps, streets of Rio and of Kinshasa... children form groups and look after each other.
The most flagrant examples of children acting violently are wars in which adults abduct children and train them as soldiers: Colombia, Sierra Leone, Uganda, Liberia, and many other cases... it's the adults doing the damage.
Children don't have holy water running through their veins, but they do not embody naked evil either. They just try to get along. LOTF is a caricature, based on the idea of "original sin", saying that we ar civilized only because society keeps us in check. Bullshit. Society is an expression of our human nature, and civilization is a natural consequence of our innate desire for an easy life and our built-in mechanisms for conflict avoidance.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
It must have been made in Taiwan.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
make that -1 poor troll.
Takes on AC troll to find another.
a functional libido and the ability to touch your toes
Maybe you remember these things called IPOs... they were pretty big in the dot com era. Exactly what is the point of issuing stock and having an IPO? To raise money to fund the company to create the products in the first place. Someone has to pay the engineers to design something, construct a factory to build it, hire sales and marketing people to move it, etc... often, vast sums of money are required for a significant amount of time before the product even makes it to the consumer's hands so that the company has a chance to become self-sustaining. If the investors were lucky, the company may even (gasp) turn a profit so they can get some money back for risking their capital to pay people before the first sale is made.
Care to tell me how I can start a business I've been working on using just my skill and no money? I need about $40k for equipment at a minimum before I can make my first sale. If I go to a bank, I'm getting money from some wealthy guy or company. If I work for someone and save the money, I'm still benefitting from some rich guy's investment even if his product is already established (for it wouldn't be established without the investment). Maybe if I sit around whining about how evil the rich people are for only contributing the money to make my skill usable, my business will start all by itself.
The engineer contributes his knowledge. The artist his creativity. The factory worker his labor. The wealthy guy contributes the money that makes that possible in the first place. Your skill isn't worth shit if it never gets the chance to be exercised because you'd refuse the contribution from the people that can enable you because you're jealous of them.
Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
>Who pays employees? The consumer. Who is the consumer? Employees.
Without going into too much detail, let me sum it up for you:
It's a symbiosis. Without rich people, the poor have no chance. Without poor people, there are no rich people.
Perhaps you think that sucks but that's how it works*.
Personally, I think it's great. It's an encouragement for everyone to be all they can be.
>When is the last time you worked in a factory?
My dad worked in one, unionized of course.
>Very few of those working class people could be considered fat cats.
He has just retired comfortably without any debt a couple of months ago. He came to Canada penniless in 1976. He, and my mom, lived on charity for at least 2 years. I now live with him and my mother (in my case it only makes sense). We live on a 1/2 acre lot in a 3000 sq ft. home in Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario. We've never won the lottery, we'd be lucky to have made more than $10,000 on investments.
You tell me. Not that I'm complaining all that much, of course I'm enjoying the benefits of that, but again, you tell me.
>Funny, I saw a lot of CEO's laying off workers so they could get hefty bonuses
Yes, they did during the dot bomb. Shortly after their companies tanked, which is why it was named the dot bomb (not because of jettisoning employees). Do you disagree with that?
>Do you think people can't work together without wealthy people telling them how to do it?
No. Communism isn't impossible to make work, it is simply unethical.
>Who built the homes? Working class people. Who builds cars? Working class people.
The question is still why? My dad worked in an auto factory. He didn't do it for fun. He wouldn't do it if it didn't pay. So why did he put bumpers on Mercedez, and frames on Jeep Cherokees?
Well, not because cheap people wanted cars, that's for sure!
>That other 80% of people aren't still going to need the essentials of life? Sure.
Again, that's communism. Rarely would you see a factory in a communist country make a luxury vehicle (except for corrupt fatcats). Normally you'd see Ladas. In fact, Ladas were made in a communist country!
So, we can spend our life surfing the internet on a 14.4k dial up connection, or we can let the rich enjoy a 100 mbps circuit, and be happy that a lot of "regulars" are able to afford and enjoy a "luxury" of 3 mbits DSL.
As compared to cars, the rich get driven around in limos. You get to drive a Toyota Corolla with Air Conditioning. Which still beats the HELL out of driving a Lada.
Life isn't about meeting essentials. It's about enjoyment.
* - That's if you want to enjoy non-essential things, like your current internet service!
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
I've always wondered what it would be like in the world if barriers for people to interact with people from other parts of the world, whether geographical or language were removed. And I believe we may soon find out, via MMORPGs.
One of the emerging trends that I see coming is the ability for international players to freely communicate and interact with each other, free of language barriers. Nintendo, SEGA, et al. have been working on this problem for quite some time now, and have even started to commercialize it. It's one of the emerging trends in MMORPG game design will create interesting interactions and facilitate global play to a greater extent than is now.
Some early results can be seen in the GameCube/DreamCast title "Phantasy Star Online" where you can select from a menu of sentence patterns, subjects, objects, etc. We're trying to get it to the point where you can translate free text, without the awkward results that stuff like Babelfish, et al. yield, maybe augmented by a player-aided cache of words and phrases, with dynanmic improvement in translation accuracy using in-game human feedback and machine learning.
I am really looking forward to the time where international players freely interact -- it will be an interesting sociology experiement to see how national and cultural means, norms and paradigms manifest themselves in a virtual world free of linguistic, political, and physical barriers.
-- Samir Gupta, Ph. D. Head, New Technology Research Group, Nintendo Co. Ltd., Kyoto, Japan.
You don't even know who the freeking rich are and totally miss the fact theat the poor don't pay taxes other than sales and fuel tax most places.
Sales and fuel taxes are still taxes, and until the tax refund shows up, income taxes are still taken out of their pockets.
If you expect people to pull themselves up out of poverty completely alone, don't go asking anyone--even your friends and parents--for the kind of help you would deny others. Live up to your own standards. If you got through hard times thanks to parents with enough money to toss your way, then turn around and prejudge anyone on social assistance as a lazy bum, you are a hypocrite.
Not that there isn't anything cool to be said about the topics of fuction, its just that english teachers arent educated in the relevant fields. This leads to ridiculous things like in intro college english, an example high quality well written essay explained how music CDs are reasonably priced at $20+, due to the high per-unit manufacturing costs.
If you work at a mall or Walmart then you probably aren't out buying cars or health insurance, they pay like crap. I agree with your point though, new businesses = new jobs. However, what kind of jobs? The US econony has a large and growing class of "working poor", people who have full time jobs but can not earn enough to cover the cost of living. Think about all those service workers (e.g. the people who clean your office) in San Fran or NYC, you think they can afford rent on minimum wage? You should read "Nickle and Dimed: Surviving in Low-Wage Americaickled" by Barbara Ehrenreich, she's a journalist who actually went out and the Walmart type jobs and tried to survive on the money she made.
I remember back about 6 to 7 months ago a protest by the players occurred in DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot).
The complaints were regarding a particular faction (hibernia to those who know the game). Players encouraged other players in the same faction to join a particular server for a protest regarding the issues.
The problem being, the Hibernia realm was the last developed realm and this does show rather well when compared against others.
Class balance issues, some monster/mobile issues and general complaints were all held. Interestingly enough it did get some attention, but I believe most of the answers weren't exactly concrete.
None the less, a protest is a protest, and it is worth mention.
"You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
If Real Life is losing ground to crude simulations, then I'd be inclined to think that there is something very, very wrong with Real Life.
If you're wondering what William Shatner said best, click here. Because timothy sure hit the nail on the head this time.
If you're wondering what William Shatner said best, click here. Because timothy sure hit the nail on the head this time.
Yes but it would appear your addiction to trolling will be much harder to conquer.
L8tr,
- The Average-Sized Circumcised Penis Man
Cynical this may be, but I can't see Star Wars: Galaxies ever being truly ready. After all, even with vehicles, it's still just a game given a Star Wars makeover. That may have worked for Knights of The Old Republic, because while it's quite open in form the plot can still be directed. But Everquest is pretty much a sprawling formless game and just throwing lightsabres etc intot he minute doesn't make it a compelling game. Or one that actually does the Star Wars license any justice (though that hasn't stopped Lucasarts in the past).
the return to "normal" behaviour when rescue arrives
You ruined the ending, you insensitive clod! :-P
I played DAOC excessively for a little more than a year. In that time, several players on my server died for one reason or another. It hurt to discover that someone you encountered in virtual battle, possibly many times, had cast his last spell or ganked his last noob and assumed room temperature.
If the dead has any virtual friends a memorial will get organized. These get announced on various forums and in-game. In the case of DAOC, at almost no other time will you stand among the enemy without being in battle. At these times, however, possibly hundreds of players gather and have good thoughts about the departed. Honor prevails and people behave.
So lets not get too worked up about a little virtual disobedience. There is a lot more than that going on inside MMORPGs. Ironically, one can imagine that the virtual turnout for the dearly departed will nearly always outstrip the real life version by an order of magnitude. Figure that out and you might have something interesting to get worked up about.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
so effectively, we should tax the poor and middle classes more, because they after all, are not able to contribute as much to society as those who are rich? over here, its the governments who build things like staidums and roads. its the taxes i pay that go towards building something which is befenficial to society.
if someone wishes to build a build a building in which he or she will rent out office space to further load their coffers, they should foot the bill, as this is hardly a gift "to society". there is no selflessness in building something with will make its owner money.
we should be taxing the rich more, and tax the poor less. the rich can at least afford to contribute to society far more than the poor. and by contribute to society im talking about paying taxes to governments who will use that money for what they are suppose to use it for, providing services and facilities to those they govern.
dms0
-= world leaders choose world leaders not us, not a democracy, not a revolution! =-
Here in Belgium, if you're paying 50% taxes, you're making EUR 29,260 ($33,420 today) per year (and I'm not even going to comment on the meaning of "high income taxes").
-- Pete.
Monochrome - Probably the UK's largest internet BBS
Instances in which it was just us the boys, when the adults would not be around for whatever reason, even for just a few hours. Bullying, hazing, power-grabbing type behavior does start to occur even in that short a time span. Given a longer period of isolation, it's not at all farfetched that we'd descend to the LOTF levels and start killing each other. That's what immature males do without guidance. It's the whole alpha male thing. Guys all know this, in particular us geeks know this very well!
I think what the original poster meant is that some sort of an authority figure needs to be there for people, in particular in this instance young immature males. Society, religion, parents, whatever. Young boys left to there devices will self destruct on one another.NO I haven't asked for help from anyone nor do I expect it. Unlike many that are told they have a right to something they have not earned I got my own shit together. I tell you what burnt it for me finally was when my kid came home and told me she was called a fool for paying for her lunch by some "poor" kids at elementary school who were getting theirs free. These kids by the way were dressed better than she was and their parents drove better cars than we did. Being the chairman of the school site council of that school for 3 years opened my eyes to the amount of things some people in this world think they are owed. I'll take a poor immigrant over a supposedly poor US citizen any day. They work their asses off and don't cut their kids any slack expecting the best effort from them. Most of those kids don't stay "poor" either.
Taxing the sucessfull more to reward people who are gaming the system is counter productive and builds resentment towards them. If you feel obligated to reward them fine do it. Just don't expect people who know whats going on to buy into your head up your ass blindness. Your willingness to deprive people who you call "rich" of the fruits of their own labors is typical pinko granola munching self deception.
I prejudge no one you are the hypocrite. I distrust everyone who expects me to share what I have earned without proving they will not throw it away. Social assistance = failed US welfare system. IF "social assistance" and taxation to support it worked we would have fewer poor persons in the US today than we had went we started this experiment. We have more.
"Remember, the article starts off talking about the rampant inflation inherent in MMOGs"
Which is, of course, utter bollocks. The problem, if there is one, is rampant _deflation_ of prices: items that would have cost 2000 whatsits when they first appeared cost 20 whatsits today because they're so common. It's only the brand-new and very rare items that cost a lot.
"the rich have an easy time accumulating more wealth to compensate for inflation."
Why do you need to accumulate wealth when goods cost 1% of the price they sold for when they first appeared? A new "poor" player in Everquest can equip themselves with items for a thousand platinum that would have cost many tens of thousands when the game was young... and make that thousand platinum in a few hours of killing spiders.
Frankly, whenever I read an article complaining about "inflation" in MMORPGs I know from the start that the author doesn't know what they're talking about.
Pay me $2 million a year, and I'll be happy to give up half of it in taxes. I'd be happy to give up 2/3 of it.
Have you considered a career in genocide? You have the right attitude :p
So, you were born to parents who gave you an education you didn't have to pay for yourself, and you're complaining about how you pay taxes on the money you make with the education you didn't pay for yourself?
If you were born to a crack addicted, abusive single mother in the slums your argument would be valid. However, like me you were born to parents who gave you opportunities unavailable to many other people. You can complain about taxes when they hit you so hard you can't even afford to send your kids to a good school.
If you don't like giving 50 cents of every dollar you make to the government, just take a $10,000 a year job, and leech off the government the way "little scumbags" do. Would you be better off then?
Not just a favorite of teachers but a favorite of female teachers who point out that "only boys would act this way, girls would never ever act this way".
I believe they tried this "less taxation on the wealthy than on the poor" thing in France. It was followed by the French Revolution. Sure, try it elsewhere. I always wanted to decapitate rich people. And poor people.
Karma: Excellent^(-t/Tau), Tau=Wittiness/Trollishness
As with all 10 minute play reviews of MMORPGs this is a reflection of the player, not the game...
Its so freaking boring...consists of guys looking for raw materials...just a collection of weird geeks...
Firstly - WTF were you looking for? MMORPGs get boring for three reasons:
1. You don't understand what's happening - typical of a 10 mins play reviewer.
2. You don't care - you went in expecting to hate it, you don't interact, you don't have a goal, you basically don't want to be there anyway.
3. You're doing the wrong thing. As has been discussed many times, there are multiple types of people. Sounds like you tried being an artisan (achiever, mostly). Try a different class. Get a new char, or just visit a trainer and learn some new skills. You sound like a agressive sulky sort - get into the agressor scene. Go get some Imperial Faction pets, put some effort into becoming a bounty hunter, commando or similar and go round greifing other players. It gives the socialisers something to moan about, the achievers another hurdle and the explorers something to laugh at, then ignore.
You'll become the lowest life form, but you won't care, and the game will continue, with or without you.
So if you try to draw a conclusion from that population, its a bad idea.
Well, SWG took over a quarter or a million subscribers in the first month. That's a lot of people, however you look at it. You may have to be careful with your conclusions, but you can get some very useful stuff from it.
MMORPGs now pull over a million regular players. That's a high percentage of regular PC Gamers. Not something you can ignore easily, or package as 'just weird geeks'.
And really, how did a rant about 'weird geeks' get +4 Interesting on Slashdot. This is where 'weird geeks' congregate.
Trust me, all those MMORPG players who read this are laughing and moving on.
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing; those who count the votes decide everything." (attrib. Joseph Stalin)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
LOTF removes the children from human society and plonks them into a wilderness, then observes as pure evil emerges stepwise from the simple combination of human nature and untamed nature.
American schools, and school children, should be so lucky. They are surrounded by the clutter of the most superficial urban culture ever invented, a culture where role models are those who steal and accumulate the most, a culture where success is never long-term, always immediate, a culture that worships violence and venerates the Law without the need for Reason.
Really not the same thing at all.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
Well, allegories are fine. Animal Farm is at least a clear caricature of historical events. LOTF is sociofiction: not based on real events, or on documented cases. If it is a moral story about adult human society, it has the same failings as if it was literal fiction about children. Adults do not spontaneously resort to violence without specific triggers, none of which are even hinted at in the book.
Animal Farm carefully examines how the lust for power makes an egalitarian system impossible, how when freed from their human masters, the animals recreate the same structures of power and control they tried to hard to escape, how the revolution eats its own children, and why the destruction of political structures is so much worse than the gentle reformation of them.
Lord of The Flies just says: little boys are nasty things that go around poking each other with sharp sticks, and that's it as far as serious analysis goes. Metaphor or not, it stinks as much as the pigs head that forms the most interesting and relevant character in the book.
Like I said, it is propaganda, widely used by teachers to instill fear in children.
Fiction like this says a lot more about the author than it says about the rest of the world.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
This certainly demonstrates one of the paradoxes of the MMORPG. On one hand, it has to be fun, and everybody has to be able to do everything in it. On the other hand, you somehow have to create the illusion of a living, working world.
And it is an illusion. To satisfy the first condition, the moment you have a built-in quest, the players are rendered powerless to change the world around that quest - a town in danger from a Dragon is always in danger from a Dragon, no matter how many times the Dragon is slain.
But, there are certain concerns that make running an MMORPG a very tricky balancing act:
1. The company must retain control over the game. This essentially renders democracy in an MMORPG impossible. The moment the players actually have a controlling interest in the game itself, the creator of the game is placed in the impossible situation of being responsible for what happens inside the game, but being to control it.
(This is the reason, for example, that when you create a character in any MMORPG, the company running the MMORPG owns the character. If you own the character, you can make demands on the company that are unreasonable in the greater scheme of things, the company HAS to give in [as the character is your property], and since the company owns the game, they are liable for anything you do.)
2. For the game to survive, the players must form a viable community. This means that the game must be fun, but also encourage people to contribute to the world in ways other than slaughtering monsters (such as creating items in UO and EverQuest). In the end, it is the people that the regular players come back for, not the game itself.
3. The game must be balanced, both in design and community. And that is the hardest of the lot, considering the first two factors. Too much inflation and the majority of the players are driven away. Have a closed system, such as the real world, and all of the resources get eaten up by the first players in the game, leaving everybody else in a state of poverty (which happened in the early days of UO). The tax system in Second Life is an interesting solution, and possibly the best I've heard so far (as just pushing new and better stuff into the economy creates inflation).
The big issue is whether democracy can end up existing in an MMORPG. Quite frankly, I don't think it can. It is one thing to petition a developer for a change, which is what the protest basically amounts to, but quite another for the players to dictate to the developers what can and can't be done in the game. The moment you have the gamers in full control of the game, the game will start to die - there will just be too many voices fighting for control at once.
Robert B. Marks
Author, Demonsbane in Diablo Archive
Of course, not all the people on welfare are druggies, just as not all the wealthy are greedy, unethical bastards. I don't mind giving a helping hand to those who are in a bad situation due to circumstances out of their control but there must be a system put in place (such as drug testing for welfare and making sure that welfare checks are not going to prisons, etc) that'll eleminate waste. There are people who trade food stamps for drugs out there and that's waste of taxpayers' money. If we can elminate the waste, then there will be more money to those who really need it.
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Indeed Ted Turner, Steve Jobs, Dean Kamen, Donald Trump, Bill Gates(hate him or love him)all got where they are by sitting on their behind while someone else did all the work. Oh, the inhumanity!!!
Remember, Amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic
I like MMPORPG's, and SWG is absolutely horrible.
The guy (woman?) is right, you get out of the tutorial, you get dumped on some planet, and its a bunch of people asking for "bone" (?????) or something that has nothing to do with *gaming*. Hell, if I want to build characters, I'll play "The Sims" and save $15 a month.
Its a laziness by the programmers; there are so many people who want to play in a star wars universe that SWG's looks like the ticket. But there's no *game* there. Just building characters.
This is the kind of game that will keep MMORPG's in the domain of geekdom forever.
Second Life, in its way, is more remote than Iraq. I can't just point you to newspapers with daily coverage of events. I can't send you to the web site of the Second Life Public Library. These things don't exist in a form that can easily cross the border back to reality.
And why not? These "worlds" exist as their own independent "nation" of sorts. Why can't game makers create a direct link between their virtual worlds and the World Wide Web?
For example, I think it would be great if we could read our in-game mail, browse the stores/bazaars, or chat with our Guild/PA through a web browser interface.
I think this may be coming in the future, but I wonder why it hasn't taken off already?
Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
You might want to examine your premise. The income tax taxes income, not wealth, there is a difference. And how do you "not use" money. Most wealthy people don't hide money under their mattresses. Investing is an important part of our economy. The reason we are in a recession is not because consumers stopped spending, it is because business stopped their record investment spree. I'm not even going to touch on the value judgements that you are making. As that is a much more philosophical and separate argument
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
"another 'classic' problem of online games: runaway inflation."
the article describes deflation, where the value of money goes up (you can buy more with less) and the price of goods goes down?
I read the article, and read up on some of the complaints and the stories. It appears that they could have solved this problem by offering tax credits/rebates for philanthropic "projects".
The next complaint by the user community will be based on what is considered philanthropic and what is not. Judgement will come into play. People will be angry for different reasons.
I can almost guarantee that if someone built a monument, got their tax break, someone else will scream bloody murder because they didn't get their tax credit for building blankety-blank.
Face it, some people are unhappy in their own skin. There are people who object to everything. These are people who will never be happy. They might best be served by creating their own game and playing it the way they want to play instead of forcing change on 98% of the rest of the world.
Lastly, it's a game. Get a life! Read a book. People who spend that much time "escaping" from reality need help.
-- No sig for you!
Bah, listen to you. Admitting cheating yer taxes.
It takes very little effort, even in this economy, to be not poor. I went to public school and a state university, paid my own damn tuition (with help from my parents, who make $30k/yr each on a small business they started with Dad's savings from his stint in Vietnam), and I have a nice apartment, a new car, and money to save on my own less than two months after graduating college.
And yeah, it is jerks like you who're taking my money. 20% of my paycheck is a lot when I'm only making $30k/yr myself. I'd LOVE to see Forbes' flat tax proposal go through, and while I'm not poor, my fiancee and I are definitely lower-middle -class until she graduates college.
"America has done some terrible things. But I know that Americans don't cheer when innocents die." -Dave Barry
I don't mind giving a helping hand to those who are in a bad situation due to circumstances out of their control
everyone is in their current situation because of circumstances outside of their control. Just think about everything that has ever happened to you, or that you have ever accomplished, and think -why- that happened, or why you could do that, or did do that. At some point you will likely say that you chose to do X... but think, -why- did you choose to do X? You are a pawn in a huge world. We all are.
If you have no pity for people that got the pointy end of the stick, then you should have no pride in your glorious end of the stick.
Try telling a junkie how addicting online gaming is. You'll count yourself fortunate if you escape with just a few bruises.
>> Would you be willing to split your work AND income
>> 50/50 with someone unemployed? No?
No, because the unemployment rate isn't 50%.
Your question might be valid at the splitting your income 93-7% with the unemployed. Everyone would love to split it that way instead of 25-35% to the feds, another 7% or so to state and local taxes, 8% to SS and Medicare taxes.
Because they're losing 45% off the top, even before they pay sales tax (8.25% here) taxes on gas, beer, deposits, "universal service fees" and all the other nickel and dime death of a thousand cuts from which they suffer.
Eliminate capitol gains, sale sand all the other taxes, bar them constituionally and every "richh person making $60k a year or more would jump on the chance to pay a flat tax of 50% on income over $30,000, for example.
Make $30k/$40k/$100k? Pay $0/$5k/$25k in taxes. Make a Million and thirty thousand a year? Pay a half mil in taxes. Total. Not in federal, or SS plus sales and saves the spotted owl, but in the grand total, no receipts necessary way.
We'd all like it. Screw the lawyers and accounts who benefit from the byzantine current system they've helped prop up.
Income tax form (revised):
1) Income:: ________
2) Income -$30000 (enter 0 if below $0) __________
3) Enter the amount from Line 2 divided by 2. _________
4) Tax due (enter line 3) __________
That's it.
City/State college can be paid out of a modest $30k income. Personally, I can live on 15k post tax. On my own, in manhattan, roommate free. So I don't have a big apt, much less a house. I could live in queens or the non-rich suburbs if I wanted more realestate.
blah, now I'm just ranting.
Um, yes inflation is a problem. Do you understand the meaning of the word? What happens in mmorpgs is exactly what inflation is. Money is created out of nothing, with no real value behind it. As time goes on, there is more and more money. That is inflation. The reason prices are so high on new things is because people have so much money from inflation.
"Lord Of The Flies is a book that illustrates how easy it is for us to fall into anarchy without the presence of a society to keep us in check." :
First of all, you point towards a definition of anarchy that is completely false.
Secondly, you say
"The book isn't about failing systems of government, it's about how, in the absence of any form of government, we quickly we fall back to a selfish "survival of the fittest" state with the strong preying on the weak..."
I'm having a hrd time seeing how this is different that ANY system that exists today.
_____ "If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." -- Orwell
How about drugs? And unprotected sex? I have pity for people who are born disabled but I have no pity for people who fried their brains because they chose to do drugs.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
How many companies do you know that weren't already profittable that had a successful IPO? These companies were already paying their employees, making things, and selling what they made. How many of those dot com IPO's led to more employees, better paid employees, or better products? Maybe for a short time the companies were doing a little better but then when the bubble popped both the good and the bad largely went pop with it. A lot of the companies would have done better if they'd stayed off the stock market.
Did I say to start a business with no money? Of course I didn't. Obviously you need money to start a business. That doesn't mean you have to get money from venture capitalist or by taking out a mortgage on your house. First off if the wealthy didn't control such a large portion of our wealth then you'd have more to work with. Second, you could do just that and save up your own money to fund your company. Once you've taken a loan and had your business flop you'll see the wisdom in being self-funded. And most new businesses do flop. Third, you could do something like a co-op.
I'm not jealous of anyone. That doesn't mean I have to be to stupid to realize when things are broken. There is nothing wrong with some people being wealthy. There is something wrong with such a minority of the population having such a large percentage of the wealth in their control. There is something wrong when people earn their wealth by being greedy and self-centered with no regard for the well being of others around them. Let those who have proven themselves trustworthy be given a chance to do more. Don't trust your children in the care of the wolves.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Now... as for the wealthy controlling large sums of the cash supply. That's the way capitalism works... if I'm willing to risk my house on a business and I end up making 100 fold more than my neighbors, why shouldn't I get a reward for taking that risk? At the same time, I could lose my house... That's the risk I'm willing to take. So, someone who already took a risk has a substantial amount of money they can risk without having to lose their house. Is that the problem, that they can afford to lose and not have to go sit out on the street because of it? If the wealthy didn't have the cash, who would? If everyone has more money, inflation creeps in to equal out the effect.
You can say you're not jealous but that's exactly how you're coming through. According to you, it's not fair that some people can actually thrive without contributing anything but spare cash to a project. Some people have brains, some creativity, others cash. That's what makes the world go around.
Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
In a society controlled by rich people I'll agree with your statement "Without rich people the poor have no chance.". In a society where people are given a fair percentage of the wealth they produce I'll disagree. Not all of that is the fault of the wealthy. It's equally the blame of the working class for being stupid enough to let the wealthy control them. Without consent it wouldn't be possible.
I'd have to totally disagree that it encourages people to be all they can be. IMO it encourages people to take all that they can take. Greed is God. The interest isn't on producing, it's on getting as much as you can for yourself. There is no balance to it. There is little encouragement to give back to society. There is no moral that when you make it to the top you should reach down and help others up. It's all a king of the mountain game. Our society produces enough wealth that we don't need to get ahead by keeping others down. We could do better by getting ahead by pulling others up.
Your dad must have worked for a pretty decent company. I've never known any factory worker that made hardly anything. Union workers included. My uncle works for a car company and they pay fairly well but they only work a couple months of the year. That's probably about the best factory job I've seen. On top of the typical poor conditions and wages of factory jobs many of the jobs are being sent offshore. Not especially good for people who have worked in those factories all their lives.
A lot of companies tanked in the dot bomb. A lot of companies that laid off workers weren't even at risk of tanking though. They just wanted to take advantage of the down economy to let loose employees and hire them back at lower wages. Or move the jobs offshore. Very few did anything so drastic as cutting the wages of upper management. Of course laying off so many workers has caused the recession to be considerably worse than it otherwise would have been. Oh well, who cares if the workers children go hungry as long as the stock holders didn't lose any money.
You think people working together is always communism? That seems a large stretch. So if the community forms a library by donating time, money, and used books it's communism? That's a bad thing? It's unethical for the community to form a library?
Wher do you even get your thing about luxury cars and broadband from people wanting to earn enough money (from their own labor) to provide what they could have provided for themselves with their own labor had not someone been skimming profit off the top. Does anybody that works full time deserve not to make enough money to pay for essentials? After everyone can pay for their essentials then it's fine for others to have luxury cars while most of his drive Hondas (I actually rather perfer Hondas over most luxury cars.). Do you really think ISP's go into business to sell 100Mb access to a couple rich people? I suppose you think it's wrong for community groups to form to spread free/cheap access to everyone? City-wide WiFi, running ethernet through your neighborhood, etc? I guess you think that's communist too.
I'd hardly consider Internet service non-essential to myself considering most my employment requires Internet access. For the average person I'd say Internet access is on the border between essential and non-essential - like owning a car. Owning a car shouldn't be essential but in this society it is in many places. The same is true of Internet service, phone service, electricity, water/sewer services, etc. Without these things you can live but you can't improve your station in life and at least in the US the government will take away your children if they find out.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
There is a lot of room for companies that make a million or two a year. There isn't a lot of room for 100 million or billion dollar companies that only make web pages. By inflating companies with money they haven't earned, and likely could never have earned, you're just setting them out to be destroyed. As you say web designers don't need to make $150k/yr. They'd have been better off paying their designers $50k/yr and sticking to their roots. There is still plenty of opportunity on the Net.. even in markets that have already inflated and popped.
One of my favorite examples is online grocery shopping. There were a few companies that tried that and went crazy with the money and totally flopped but there would still be plenty of room in most areas for such a company. Take orders, purchase the products for your customers, and deliver. Simple and easy to start such a company and it'd be very useful to people that aren't mobile enough to shop for themselves or are simply to busy. Take risks but don't get greedy. There is nothing wrong with doing well for yourself. There is nothing wrong with getting a return for the risks you take. It only becomes a problem when you lose sight of everything but the money.
The original discussion was on why the wealthy should be taxed less than the working classes. That's the viewpoint I'm arguing against. I'm not trying to claim that it's wrong to be wealthy but I do think the wealthy have a stronger responsibility to society and should bear the burden of most the taxes. Not so much as to make it impossible to be wealthy, just more than the average person. I also think that society should be policing who we allow to be wealthy. We should let those who we can trust to apply their wealth well be wealthy. Those that aren't trustworthy should not be allowed to be wealthy.
I have no interest in being wealthy. I give a large percentage of my time and money away already and if I was wealthy I'd just give more away. I'd be pretty satisfied if I could have a stable enough income to let me donate more of my time to worthy causes. $25k/yr would be plenty for my lifestyle and still leave me with enough to give some away.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
I suppose the big question to be answered here is, "what is communism?"
:-)
>In a society where people are given a fair percentage of the wealth they produce I'll disagree.
Now that, THAT is communism. Or at least it is to me. And probably Karl Marx...
>IMO it encourages people to take all that they can take.
Perhaps so. However, taking in our society is akin to helping. Yeah, that's confusing Reaganomics, but on most scales, it makes sense. Most taking requires employment and production, which is what helps the vast majority of others.
>There is no balance to it.
Does there need to be?
>There is little encouragement to give back to society. There is no moral that when you make it to the top you should reach down and help others up.
Yes and no. While I still consider it giving back swag, many, many people even here comment on how nice it is that Bill Gates is running a charity foundation, and giving millions away to help others in field that don't directly benefit Microsoft. A large group of people think that makes Bill Gates a better man. Those people are far less likely to have an urge to beat the hell out of him.
So the moral is, be a jerk, get treated like one... Help others and be remembered like Mother Theresa or Ghandi. I'd take being remembered favourably over being remembered as a pariah.
However, on the small donation scale, the only impetus one has is their own sense of self-worth. Fortunately, that's pretty strong in most people.
>Your dad must have worked for a pretty decent company. I've never known any factory worker that made hardly anything.
Perhaps. I can say that having checked out factory wages for various companies in my area, for full time workers who haven't just started out, wages range between $10 CDN and $40 CDN per hour, the average being about $17 CDN per hour. That's still much better than most people make, although it doesn't make one rich. Just well off.
>A lot of companies that laid off workers weren't even at risk of tanking though. They just wanted to take advantage of the down economy to let loose employees and hire them back at lower wages.
That's the company's choice. Of course they risk (and always do) losing the best workers and being poorer skilled for that.
>Oh well, who cares if the workers children go hungry as long as the stock holders didn't lose any money.
No working family has hungry children unless the family has serious societal problems. ALL and I mean ALL families with poor children were either extremely overpopulated (that ALWAYS causes famine), usually with 9+ children per parent, or had parents with law problems (taking drugs instead of feeding the family), or debt problems from bad decisions (Gambling, buying boats, etc, etc). These problems are not solved by throwing money at them. The parent wasting money on weed simply spends it on crack instead. It's a specious argument to suggest that a "starving" family with a minimum possible income of $16 per hour cannot feed themselves. Even without overtime, that's over $2000 a month, virtually tax-free if you have enough kids. In bulk, one could EASILY even a very large family for under $500 a month. "Expenses" are NOT $1500 a month!
($CDN, of course)
>Very few did anything so drastic as cutting the wages of upper management. Of course laying off so many workers has caused the recession to be considerably worse than it otherwise would have been.
Agreed, and as a result these companies are now going out of business. You can only delay the inevitable.
>You think people working together is always communism?
No. I believe people who begin to "wage share" are participating in communism. Wage sharing starts at taxes, and ends at government ordained salaries. This soft form of communism (taxes) is often dubbed "socialism".
>So if the community forms a library by donating time, money,
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Okay, I think the main difference in our arguments is that you thought I was suggesting the government fund everything while I'm suggesting people just cut corporations and government out of the equation and do it for themselves. I'm a strong supporter of small to medium sized businesses and of community groups. I'm never in favor of bigger government which I think is what you're associating with communism?
I'm also not in favor of to much power to corporations. That IMO is just as dangerous as to much power to the government. In ideal people would work together to balance the power of both corporations and government. In actuality our culture doesn't encourage that and people seem surprised at the idea that they even could hold power. There just isn't enough 'community' on a large scale right now to really apply itself.
You question why people would want to work for free. Part of it is just ego and the need to feel self worth but there is also concern for the community. Maybe you want to raise the minimum standard of living or provide a resource for your children or their children. IMO those are important reasons to build up your community. Yes businesses can help with donations and such but that without individuals involved will never be a strong community. A Slashdot-related example would be opensource software. A lot of people don't understand why some of us donate so much effort to providing software we're not being paid for. Part of it is because we need it for ourselves or those reasons of ego or self worth but often it's because we'd like to share with others or care about the legacy being left for future generations. Do we want our children to use only software from a couple large companies and approved by the government or do we want some say in what they can use? Maybe we can write better software or maybe we can just offer choices. Either way it's a worth while effort.
The only thing I'd really argue about that you said is that nobody that is working fulltime can be unable to pay for the cost of living for themselves and their family unless they've somehow brought the problem on themselves. Even without children it's impossible for people making minimum wage to keep up with their bills. Rent and utilities alone will often go above that income. Sure, it's easy to say that they should just get better jobs. It's easy to say that but not easy to do. In a lot of places there aren't enough good jobs to go around. Would it be responsible to just refuse to work because the job doesn't pay a fair wage? I doubt your landlord would agree. The problem will only get worse as automation and offshoring jobs becomes more popular. Even a lot of jobs that require a fair bit of training pay less than $10/hr. It's somewhat amazing to me that a nurses aid in many places makes $7/hr while the pizza delivery guy makes $12/hr. And no the nurses aids can't just all quit and start delivering pizza. It's against the law for them to leave those in their care until someone relieves them on duty. Even if they could I doubt most would because they feel some responsibility to those in their care. IMO the companies employeeing these people should also feel the responsibility to pay their employees well enough to pay their cost of living. That's the kind of thing that needs to stop happening.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
...except, of course, it is intended as allegory for a much broader statement about human nature in the absence of government or authority. It is a eloquent restatement of Hobbes's "nasty, brutish and short" epigram. And very much a propaganda piece.
Whether it's right or not (and even the examples cited here given a less-than-definitive answer), I always assumed Heinlein's "Hole in the Sky" was intended as a reply to Golding. Heinlein has his band of lost children develop a successful society which fends off a truly dangerous indigenous life form. The funny part is when the media shows up and tries to portray them as having sunk back to the depths of primitivism. No more definitive than "Lord of the Flies," but what a riposte!
And Heinlein did a great job of extrapolating the journalism of his day to predict the media whores with which we are now beset.
Eternal vigilance only works if you look in every direction.
What the current system does is create disincentives to work an average job. The "middle class" isn't shrinking because the wealthy are stealing the money, it's shrinking because of excessive taxation (not just income tax, phone taxes, gas tax, sin taxes, user fees, utility franchise fees, road tolls, etc) combined with rewards for those who don't want to put the effort in to achieve self-sustainance (I'm not saying everyone on welfare is abusing the system but there are a substantial number of people, including people in my own family, who deliberately do less than they're capable of and put themselves in situations so that they don't have to work a real job).
Whether or not wealthy people should be taxed differently than non wealthy people is the wrong question. The question should be why is the federal government so wasteful with the tax money they collect and why has the federal budget gone from $196 billion in 1970 to $2200 billion today (444% inflation vs 1122% growth, meaning the budget grew at 3x the rate of inflation over the years). How much of that $2200 billion actually falls under the scope of the federal government as defined by Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution?
The fact that the wealthy are willing to risk their capital already is what created the majority of the private sector jobs out there. Sure, some people start small and grow over time, but something like a restaurant requires significant capital just to serve that first burger (a chain fast food restaurant costs between $800k-$2 million to start depending on the chain and location (plus monthly franchise payments) and even a family restaurant requires more than $50k for basic equipment if they already own a building that doesn't need modifications (or add on another $100-250k for that)).
As to companies and profit... Dell can sell me a basic computer cheaper than I can build one from parts because of economies of scale. They buy so many parts that they get a massive discount compared to the retail price I pay. McDonalds can buy their burger cheaper than the restaurant I manage can. They both started very small... one man's investment and work (ok, in the case of McDonalds, two brothers). They reached their respective positions by doing something better than their competition. Fact is, there are people who can afford to buy a computer today only because of Dell's success. Still neither of them got to their position without the help of outside money from wealthy people along the way and very few substantial corporations can.
Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
I'm not going to be sorry I'm not born to crack addicts. Nor am I going to happily provide for the worthless offspring of crack addicts without complaint.
Either myself or a direct relative worked for every advantage I have, and I deserve every last one because of that work. Those without such advantages simply do not have those advantages, they do not deserve free money from unwilling strangers because of that lack.
Yes, I would be better off if I took a 10k/yr job and received gov't benefits. I'd spend more time with my wife and kids. Except by working I provide the same advantages (better, I hope) to my kids that my parents provided to me.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.
With the right to pursue your own happiness comes the responsibility not to keep others from pursuit of the same goal. We police other types of people that put their own interest above society so why not certain types of the wealthy? Being a rapist might be pursuit of happiness for some people but I doubt many of us think society shouldn't present some control over such behavior. The same should be true of people that would become wealthy through disregard for others.
I'll agree that there will always be people who'd coast along doing the minimum. You're going to get people of that kind either way and most often they'll never raise above being poor. I'll also agree that the tax and welfare systems, as they are now, is contributing to the problem. Which is why I think if we're going to have either system at all we might as well do them well. I really don't think either system should be in place but if I'm going to pay taxes I want it to go towards things I find important. To me that would be better unemployment protection, medical coverage, etc.. not roads, jails, and inflated politicans paychecks.
I'll also agree that the government is the fat cat of fat cats. Taking and wasting money and resources outrageously. We, as a society, have given far to much control to the Federal government. They do far more than they were ever intended to do by the founders of our country. Some of the things they do are explicitly forbidden to the Federal government but they always seem to find a loophole to use as an excuse for doing it anyway.
I don't really have a problem with businesses in the few million dollar bracket. It's really only when they get into hundreds of millions of dollars or billions of dollars that I have a problem. At that size even if the people in charge mean well the company just has so much power that it can cause massive harm at the smallest decision. Again there might be some people that have proven themselves so trustworthy that they should be allowed to control those resources but I don't think it'd be a majority of those that currently do control such resources. The insanity of the dot com bubble is proof that unproven people shouldn't suddenly find themselves in control of such resources. The world only needs so many beanbag chairs and nerf toys.
There is something to be said for buying stuff cheap but every time you buy the cheapest item you need to think about how it's being produced. Is it cheap because when you turn out 1,000,000 at once the materials and labor is more effeciently used or because the company has third world labor producing the parts for a nickle a day. Also is the cheap item as good of quality as the more expensive item. Again it comes down to balancing. Again I'm not attacking everyone that is wealthy or capitalism, I'm pointing out possible weaknesses that need to be watched and though about. Capitalism is a good system but like any system it isn't perfect. People that abuse it threaten to break it. Everything needs a balance, even the good things.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
I think putting caps on what a corporation can earn or how much wealth a person can amass is a very bad thing though. It amounts to punishment for being successful and taking risk that others refused to. It will add a further barrier to creating new advances. Why should a company spend $100 million on drug research if they're only allowed to make $10 million on the investment? Why should someone who's sitting on top of their $10 million maxed out nestegg bother to invest any of it in someone else's idea if he can't get anything for taking the risk?
Under capitalism, everyone has something (more or less) to contribute. If you limit one of the types of contribution, the whole thing falls down. Make it so engineers can't work more than 5 hours a week and you'll find you can't get a product designed. Limit assembly workers to 20 hours a week and your product can't be made fast enough to meet demand. Limit return on investment and watch investment dry up because there isn't enough incentive to invest.
The fact that Bill Gates has $40 billion doesn't prevent me from going out and pursuing my happiness. Big deal... in fact, maybe I work for a company that builds ridiculous yachts and I'm being employed because Bill Gates wants one. If he didn't have the money to waste, I wouldn't have a job to provide the money that helps me pursue my happiness. When you start complaining that (x) has too much money or that (y) has too much revenue, it ALWAYS comes across that you're jealous because you can't compete with them. It bothers you that someone else has something that you don't. You want to find happiness? Stop worrying about what everyone else has and find what will make you happy.
Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
Well then after the take down of a couple of the game's premiere players, everyone in the game tried to hunt us down and got about 50% of our players, but by that time it was the towards the end of the semester and we were too busy with the real world to rejoin.
I came back about a year later to a game filled with "unofficial" rules of how the game was played. You know, crap like, "If someone twice your size attacks you, they get two retals for the land grab not 1. If you left your self open, no retals, and the entire game had turned into one bad genevea convention. Plus with hourly ticks, if you were not online like 18 hours a day, you had no real chance to win and most of the orginial players had left.
I quit and since have never come back to the game and started some work developing a fork to the Promisance Game Engine and have run various BNT games on websites to a small scale, never more than about 100 players, but even in those small games, politics take a life of their own and as I go back to school to prosue a masters in International Relations, I can't help but think that one of these games would be an excellent study of possible political models.
And if anyone still play's SK, I was known as Unimatrix. If your ever around their forums, some of the old timers (if any are still there) may still remember me....
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
Wait, I never said I was cheating on my taxes. I just said I practiced "grey accounting". To the untrained eye, they look very similar. But to those who practice it the similarities are miles apart.
In every system there exists loopholes, grey accounting uses them. Think of the practice as using a fiduciary wormhole.
I suppose my overall responses yesterday were a tad to harsh though. I used to think like you two do. I used to hate having to dish out all my hard earned cash. I used to do very well for myself, and odds are if I attempted to, I could continue to do well. I hold a masters degree in CS and a bachelors in History. In my state there was a program that allowed honor students to enter college in their junior year of HS, so I basically graduated HS, then 5 months later received my AS degree. I went on to college, studied my ass off (Paid my own way when scholarships didn't cover it), rose up the chain, made a lot of money - got laid off. Couldn't find a job for 6 months.
Then I started going to the library and researching... Started looking on the web. Started learning that making a lot of money and paying most of it into taxes totally sucks, and found a way out.
If you researched it as much as I did, you'd see the same thing. Your taxes you pay to the Federal and State goverments pay my bills. Literally. So many grants out there, and all you need to know is how to write a legible letter.
I get money monthly from the government to pay my utilities, I get a yearly subsidy for living in the county I live in. The goverment paid to install solar assisted power in my home, and the electric company pays me for the overage I sell to them. I make a good amount of tax free money buy going to garage sales, estate sales, dumpster diving, etc then researching what I find and selling it on ebay. I get grants from the Feds to keep learning; they paid $18,000 to a bootcamp that got me my MCSE/CCNP/A+/N+ certs over a 60 day camp.
I keep meticulous records on everything. From mileage on my car to the Mt. Dew I'm drinking right now. I technically own a business (sole-proprietorship, if your wondering) which was basically free to setup (All it takes is a simple form to the Feds, you can even do it online.) and opens up an insane amount of tax breaks. I don't really live poorly, but looking through my records it appears so. According to my own records on my PC (hehe, I'd be fucked if the feds ever saw most of it) this is how 2002 looked:
Officially earned at my little 40/hr week blue collar job: $21,082.54
Taxes Paid(Combined sum of all jobs): $6102.09
Tax Return received (including business write offs, grey accounting, etc etc. Call me the financial overclocker): $19,237.00
Monies spent for items to sell on ebay: $10,233.43
Amount earned from Ebay: $53,191.77
I appear to be doing very well, don't I? But that's only because of what I told you. Let's look at it from the perspective of an avg fed:
Yearly Pay: $22,000 (Give or take)
Mortgage: 450$/month
Car: 220$/month
Credit: Horrible, bankruptcy 4 years ago.
Savings: Approx 400$
It appears that I live on but 250$ or so a month for food, medical, insurance, etc. I look like a mess.
But theres about 38,000$ in cash in my house, several thousand in coins, 1000 or so in bonds, etc.
See, if you want to, you can never pay taxes again - you can all but fall off the federal radar.
Sure, they might wonder where I find the cash to pay for my accountant. They might wonder how I can afford some of the things I own. But since I keep all the records that prove how I can pay for these things without counting my "external resources" it doesn't matter. I still get insane tax breaks. The government still pays my way.
You might think I'm scum. I know I would of thought that way if someone had said this to me years ago, but you'd be surprised. I'm using the same loop holes and hidden grants that millionaires have been using for years. Things like money from the government to pay your utilities - those are ava
This is the kind of game that will keep MMORPG's in the domain of geekdom forever
Over 275,000 users, and the fastest growing MMORPG to date.
That's a lot of people who don't agree with you. This game is the first to push MMORPGs out of 'the domain of geekdom'.
But there's no *game* there
Like I already said, take the time to give it a proper try. A lot of people never got into Civ2 or Half-Life through laziness. You try telling me that's 'not gaming'. If you didn't get much beyond the tutorial, your comments on the game (and others) are worthless drivel.
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing; those who count the votes decide everything." (attrib. Joseph Stalin)
*snore* Far better a system where such grants as you leech from are completely eliminated. Privately violating the spirit of the law while externally following the letter is just as reprehensible as outright tax evasion and cheating, IMHO.
"America has done some terrible things. But I know that Americans don't cheer when innocents die." -Dave Barry
I'm not violating anything. Everything I'm doing is perfectly legit. There is no "violation of the spririt of the law" going on.
To see a grant which reads something like "XXX$ monthly payment to persons living in the county of XXXXX in the state of XXXX. Requirement: Live in the county of XXXXXX", filling out a request form and getting it - how is that violating?
The government sets up 2.2 billion dollars in grants for the citizens of the US. They don't advertise these grants or make it easy to find - but they have to say they have them somewhere. There's lots of people like me too, go to your public library and attempt to check out any current book by that hack "Matthew Lesko" - you'll be waiting weeks if not months in most cases. The money is sitting there, available to virtually anyone, yet you condemn me for using the system in the laws it's setup.
I don't really have to live the way I do, I could go out and get a great job, etc etc etc and still do this. But then it makes my job far more difficult - though it'd unlock even more higher paying grants.
There's so many grants out there for educational purposes that don't make sense, if you used each one you could be going to school for the rest of your life and never pay a dime.
The system is setup for everyone to use, so why not use it.
Well, you can't have it both ways--in a prior post you mentioned the feds would be pissed if they saw your actual income.
You are required to report all your income, y'know, even the stuff you mentioned as being made by ebay--I see $43k in earned income that you're admittedly not paying taxes on, for a start.
*shrugs* But then again, I'm libertarian. I oppose my tax dollars being used for anything but national functions (like defense, and...maybe a small judiciary that only gets involved in inter-state disputes. Maybe), not all this grant bullshit.
*shrugs* Of course, I'm sufficiently radical a libertarian that I believe dissolving the federal gov't entirely is probably the best course of action at this point. Fewer loopholes = fewer fuckoffs like you stealing my money via taxes.
"America has done some terrible things. But I know that Americans don't cheer when innocents die." -Dave Barry
Ah, well, I don't let them know about everything I do, I am wrong in that respect. Mainly the ebay and other little things I do on the side.
And isn't calling me a fuckoff a bit harsh? I mean, with regards to the grants and such, I'm just filling out forms/writing letters/etc for programs that already exist. I'm not out and out stealing from the Government.
Instead of saying I'm stealing your money, how about we agree that the bureaucracy is by setting up such small, hardly known programs. Personally, I feel the majority of them are there as a way to funnel tax dollars to "Black Ops" type programs. There's literally an "animal food grant". The Federal Gov sets aside something along the lines of 200 million for it. Virtually no one knows about it, people hardly ever request funds from it, yet it exists. Why not use it? Better me getting that money then some hidden research lab creating the next bio-toxin, right?
So don't complain about me, complain about the system. That's really the bad guy here. Not me exercising the laws that have been passed, but the guys passing them.
I wouldn't put hard caps on anything. Mostly because the economy is to fluid and any caps you set would instantly be out-of-date and need a whole list of exceptions. Going back to the original discussion I'd suggest if we're going to tax at all (Which again I'm against) it should be the people that derive the most benefit from the system (obviously the wealthy) should pay the highest taxes. If the whole system were computerized I'd suggest offsets to taxes based on the average citizens confidence in the persons trustworthiness.. but that kind of thing just wouldn't work at all with the botched system we have today.
;)
If you made boats then sure what Bill Gates does probably won't matter.. until the day he decides the software boom is over and decides to corner the boat market and catch the next big wave. As you say we have anti-trust laws just for this purpose but obviously they aren't working very well. Which is the kind of thing we need to work on correcting. I'd like to see the general attitude of the society change too. There is to much reliance on the government and big business and not enough on ourselves or our neighbors. To often people would rather not make the effort to do things themselves. That is exactly why people get totally screwed whenever the government or a corporation decides something stupid. An example would be that copyrights will probably last for eternity minus a day and people still won't bestir themselves to stop the bending of the law against them. At most they'll come on Slashdot and bitch and moan.
I know what makes me happy and it isn't money. If anything money is what makes me unhappy. Which is why I've spent years making an effort to get rid of damn near everything I owned and inventing ways to live cheaper.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
'Negative sales tax' is an irrelevant misunderstanding of the argument at hand. There is a difference between investing in something and buying it. Go get a dictionary, and then form a proper response to the above comment.
>There is a difference between investing in something and buying it. Go get a dictionary, and then form a proper response to the above comment.
I did. The fact you required a dictionary to look up "investing" shows you probably aren't worth discussing the issue with.
HAND.
>Master of the straw-man argument, you are, judging by your other comments.
Fuck you very much, too. Now go away.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
"The fact you required a dictionary to look up "investing" shows you probably aren't worth discussing the issue with." was re: straw man
>"The fact you required a dictionary to look up "investing" shows you probably aren't worth discussing the issue with." was re: straw man
Was re: Taxation is theft. Now I have to repeat titles for you?
Yikes.
I'm glad you're now on my foes list. I'm too busy for this crap.