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Dual Layer DVD+R Developed
Lucretian writes "And they said it couldn't be done... It appears that Philips has found a way to burn a dual layered DVD+R. Unlike other dual layered disks that have been developed, this one is also designed to be backwards compatible with current DVD players. Phillips will be demonstrating this new technology at CEATEC this coming week at the DVD+RW alliance booth. The DVDs will hold 8.5GB of data (4 hours of video) and are set to be released as soon as next year."
more p0rn!
puts ("Python r0cks\n");
Before anyone goes off the deep end about -r/+r: if phillips did it with +r then -r will follow.
I still cannot fit my whole porn collection on one of these things so it matters little to me...
signatures are for fools with hands
Backing it up is simply impossible by any current means.
We desperately needed another non-standard DVD standard.
This latest DVD burning technology will undoubtedly be quite expensive, for both the drives and the media. Especially the media, since it will probably take Phillips a while to manufacture enough media for these devices.
OTOH, it will certainly make it easier for the home movie crowd.
SCREW THE ADS! http://adblock.mozdev.org/ Proud user of teh Fox of Fire - Registered Linux User #289618
Now when the prices start dropping, I will buy.
i cant seem to come up with a sig.
I personally am going to wait for the BlueRay to come down in price and go with that.
Between the current speed advantage (8x vs 4x), and now the size advantage, is there any hope for the '-R' format?
Hey genius, CDs and DVDs were not intended for doing system backups. If you want to backup you big ass porn collection or your illegal MP3 collection then you need to get a fricking tape drive. Tape drives were specifically designed for the purpose of backing up big ass disk arrays. USE THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB!!!
Why haven't they agreed on a standard format for DVDs yet? I can't keep track of the -s and +s.
Founder of Mirror Moon - Tsukihime Game Trans
I backed up about 100GB of data a few months ago on DVD+R, and they worked fine for a few months. Now most of them are giving me CRC errors when trying to read them in any drive. I deleted the data from my hard drive to save space like a fool. I might as well have just bought another hard drive to back them up for the cost of the DVD-R media and writing drive :/
They need to research more ways to make this media last rather than try to increase the size.
8GB of dammaged data isn't good for anyone...except maybe Soviet Russia.
These disks cannot store 4 hours of video. Definitely not. In fact, it's absolutely impossible to store compressed video onto DVDs.
We need these larger disks for backup purposes. Not just that, but we need these disks for backup purposes so that we can evil catch terrorists and corporate criminals.
Remember, these aren't on the market yet. And if they could be used for storing video, they might never reach the market.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
First, the movie industry will not like this at all, because virtually every movie will fit onto a single recordable DVD at full bitrate.
Second, the Philips technical paper does say (as expected) that a new drive is required, with an objective lens that can focus into the two recording planes on a disc.
My new DVD+R/W drive has just made reservations for the basement suite next to the 2X CDROM drive.
More one reson (besides price) to not buy a dvd recorder now.
w-hooooo, no more recompressing (or trancoding) DVDs!!
Karma: Bad. Calmer, good.
I thought dual layer double-sided DVDs have existed for years and they held about 9gig of data, silver on both sides with not much space for any label except the inside of the ring.
So...
The next challenge is to make a Linux distribution like Knoppix big enough to use that whole DVD.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Well, it looks like this will drive down the price of current single-layer DVD-R's (hopefully).
It also appears to comply with standard to play/read in all current DVD players/readers.
Backups will take fewer disks! Now what about the speed?
Hmmm, I often wonder why the rest of the world seems to hate americans.
Luckily there is always someone around to remind me.
Karma: Bad. Calmer, good.
I, for one, welcome our new double-density overlords!
Illegitimi non Carborundum.
oops I meant to say DVD movies are ubiquitously GREATER than 4.5GB in size and a single DVD-r cant hold that much
I don't see how you can say that -R is going to be usurped simply because of speed issues. The fact is that they could make 8x double-layer DVD-Rs if the DVD-Forum decided to make them. Also, there are very few video applications that require the double-layer standard.
/. article about it. If someone is publishing a corporate or school training video, and the viewers have an old DVD player, the chances that it will play anything but a -R are slim. Particularly with schools, it is a challenge to be replacing capital equipment even as trivial as a DVD player when budgets are so tight these days. For that reason alone, the format can't and shouldn't go away completely for the foreseeable future. But the DVD-Forum had better respond in kind and in short order, because as time goes on things will change, and +R may yet usurp this.
The fact is this: if you want maximum compatibility today with DVD readers and players, including legacy devices, you must go with DVD-R. There was even a recent
The other thing to remember is that you need to use good quality blanks with stable dyes (i.e. MAM-E/Mitsui Archive Gold, Verbatim Data Life) if you want to retain your data over the long term. Philips hasn't mass-produced these double-layer DVD+Rs yet, so we don't know about their longevity or even their real compatibility in the field. I'd take a more mature mass-storage technology over the bleeding edge, even if it meant dealing with more physical media.
Now you don't have to recompress your DVD movies before copying them. I bet the MPAA will figure that out, soon enough.
The average movie is 7+GB in size. 4.5GB drives were no threat to the MPAA. Hence we weren't subjected to a whole lot more than mere rhetoric from the end of Valenti's digestive system incapable of facial expression.
Given that most of the movie leaks to date have come from industry insiders, and that industry capable drives aren't common, the MPAA enjoyed what the RIAA could only whish it had, an exclusive advantage in both the market place and in the means of production.
Look forward to RIAA-style lawsuit writs being included in the installation instructions with every drive.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
with all the confusion about which format is compat with another, this is what needs to happen. something that can go both ways, thus creating it's own standard. I wish they're weren't more than one (I'm shopping for a dvd burner myself, and I still haven't decieded) but until then, this seems like a great solution.
hopefully another *standard* won't be marketed anytime soon making this obsolete!
CB
free ipod and free gmail!
I find the whole idea that people actually continue to say this phrase, absurd. In this day and age, things that were deemed impossible are being done every day. Of course this has happened throughout the ages, not just currently, but it seems more prevelant now. This is the reason I laugh my ass off when some company comes out with an "uncrackable" security mechanism.
-------
"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
-- George Orwell
i have one of those mini-cd mp3 players.
a mini-cd stores up to 180MB or about 25% of a standard cd.
i find this really useful for storing utilities and such, config docs, encrypted password files etc as they are small enought to fit in a jeans pocket.
now if we had a dual-layered mini-dvd i could get over 2Gb of data in my pocket!
that would be cool.
you could then pretty much fit a whole distribution on a business card!
ASSSSSY!!!!!
We actually use our computers to store music and data we OWN.
It's so annoying trying to copy a DVD.
Most commercial DVDs are around 7 gigs and it really sucks to have to determine whether or not to split it up to two DVDs or to just strip the main movie and recompress it.
Ever try to copy a full season of the sopranos? You NEED 8 dvds for it all. Although I suppose $11 is better than $80, so there ya go.
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
Cheers,
Ian
Thanks Bill :)
Probably the new 8.5GB drives will cost you an arm and a leg and media will be prohibitive as well. Right know you can get a samsung ide drive of 160GB 7200rpm less than 100$. The cost per GB is not mutch higher of that of the DVDs and with DVDs you have spenf money on the burner as well. More than that the reliability of the drive is much greater, you can write and erase from as mutch as you like, speed is mutch better and to add on top it is more compact (160Gb means arround 35 dvds). Do not spend money on DVD technology.
http://ebgp.net/ccc/
I can fit my entire porn collection onto one floppy. The collection consists of a single picture, goat sex man, and I only keep that to send to people who need to be told that they are a pain in the backside.
Cuiusvis hominis est errare; nullius nisi insipientis in errore perseverare.
"The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from."
Andrew S. Tannenbaum
"Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness." --Eric Blair
This is bad news for MPAA. Unlike CDs, DVDs are easily available for rent and within 3 years they can be copied like the CDs can now be copied, by Joe Public.
So why is it good for HDTV ? Because, now the only way for MPAA members to make money is to start offering HDTV discs, which they are trying to put off as much as possible.
That is, assuming blue ray writable players won't be on the desktop by then
karma : former act as leading to inevitable results
Let's not forget that this comes from the Eurofags whom invented the audio cassette, the CD, disk video and the video disk.
(these last 2 are different inventions it seams. Wierd but hey...)
Still better inventing stuff like this, instead of focussing on 'mini-nukes' to circumvent international treaties. (There I go again. Please mod me down, please?)
DVD-RAM is a much ignored DVD standard, and yet it was specifically designed for data backup. A DVD-RAM is treated like a huge floppy disk with drag'n'drop capability and rewritability without reformatting. DVD-RAM v2.0 offers 4.7GB/side, and rewritability in the order of 100,000 times. A double-sided DVD-RAM disk is 9.4GB. Note that it is only designed for data storage, but offers huge advantages over DVD+-RW in terms of size, data life and rewritability. Data life is quoted at 30 years.
The average movie is 7+GB in size. 4.5GB drives were no threat to the MPAA. ...the average movie *got* 7+GB. My oldest DVDs almost all fit on a single-layer disk. I think initially that was cheaper for the DVD makers, and so they fit it, noone seemed to complain... They didn't suddenly "grow" this large until DeCSS and recordable DVDs on the horizon gave them a heads-up about the future.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Its a good idea to sometimes quote the AC you are replying too, or you will look totally crazy to anyone surfing with a threshold of 1+ :-)
Bush and Blair ate my sig!
I haven't. Because if you're talking specs, take e.g. Pioneer DVR-107:
DVD-R: 8x (Z-CLV), 6x, 4x, 2x, 1x (CLV)
DVD+R: 8x (Z-CLV), 6x, 4x, 2.4x (CLV)
Seem awfully similar? And if you trust the editiorial comment on www.cdrlabs.com:
"Dual layer technology is something that a lot of people have been waiting for. Of course, Pioneer is also supposedly working on their own dual layer DVD-R discs. Which will make it to market first? Who knows."
I think they both won. I've got a ND-1300A DVD+/-R(W) drive. Why? A hedge, it'll burn the format no matter which wins. And I know many people that have bought the same one, which makes it more unlikely that any burner will in fact win. End result is that we end up paying money to both the certification organizations, even though there is no technological reason to have two formats.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
... is going to take revenge for the circumvention of their CD-Audio Standard by introducing copy protected audio-disks but labelling them as Audio CD playable. Huurray, this might be one of the few occasions a big player seems to unite with the peoples front, ha! Were back in business to backup our bought audio and video DVDs. This is even more funny regarding developments in US and Europe to prevent any sort of copycat with legally purchased digital content. Go on Philipps!
we do need bigger backup media. HDs are usually 80GB plus, how do we back them up (particularly if the HD is full of ripped media)?
Nah, if you want one, just get a burner now. As long as the compression is same, you can wait on the dual-layer or Blue-Ray to come down in price, buy one, then transfer the video straight from your 4.7 GB disks to the new formats--no recompression, just some re-authoring. The only thing I worry about is media longevity; hopefully they can sort this out before my current media goes bad. But if you have the itch, I'd say now is a good time to scratch it.
I remember when 1.44mb was enough for anyone...
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
Bah! I've had 9GB DVDs for a long time... all you have to do is use a hole punch to create a second notch on the disk, then insert it into the drive upside down!
...wait a minute, why is the end cut off of all my movies?
new advertizement: "scratch once, lose twice the data!"
Breaks my heart, I tell ya, it just breaks my heart.
Brackets contain world's first nanosig, highly magnified:[.]
that doesn't pause when changing layers?
I'd much rather have one of those so I can get the value out of the movie that I'm renting.
Forget about the capacity, which format is more reliable, CDRs or DVD+-Rs?.
I may be wrong, but I think that CDR are better. I DONT TRUST the sealing of the two plastic disks from a DVD. Eventually the air WILL MIGRATE inside and the oxidation WILL BEGIN, much sooner than in the case of CDRs.
Slashdot physical chemists and chemical engineers please enlighten me! Am I right or wrong?
The real question is weather current DVD+RW drives can adopt to this new media with a firmware upgrade, or whether new drives are necessary. I hope for the formar, but fear the latter will provide a much richer business op., even if a firmware upgrade *is* possible.
holds 20 gigs I've seen them in action in Japan. Say goodbye to DVD.
The DVD Forum is also currently suing a Slashdot user for posting links to DeCSS. So, they have absolutely zero authority around here.
I gather I will have to go get a new damn DVD burner for this. Too bad Sony can't just make a firmware update to support it.
Also, I thought that commercial movies were well over the 4.5Gb per side limit. They add enough stuff to the movie [trailers, BTS, etc] to fill up the disk to use two layers. They can also get sloppy with the compression [which improves picture on cheap players] as well as make the disc non-ripable to a standard recordable DVD. That and the "key" block? [for CSS?] on recordables is preburned so you can never make an exact disc copy even if you wanted. Your copy won't be "seen" as a commercial DVD?
A couple of 1GB SecureDigital ?
There exists doublesided dvd-rs to. The difference is that I think the speed of the disc is constant for -r/rw, but can change for -ram and +r/rw. dvd-ram can also be overwritten more times, you don't need to blank it (burn and remove whatever you like) and they have a longer lifetime.
If I had been able to contain myself, we'd be spared another standard.
Pionneer to proceed with dual layer recording Friday, 3 October 2003 Pioneer Corporation has proceeded to the development of dual layer recording on DVD-R discs. The first measurements on the two layer DVD-R discs showed that the jitter for the fisrt layer is 9.34%, the reflectivity 17.3%, while the same measurements for the second layer were 8.08% and 19.5%, respectively. Playback compatibility with the current DVD players is expected to be high.
Although the limited information about the technology background, dual layer DVD recording is definitely a major step beyond and expected to boost the sales of DVD writers.
source
Maybe it is a media problem, or a specific burner problem.. Their user comments do not seem to contradict this.
've got two 200 GB hard drives full of MP3s and videos.
Backing it up is simply impossible by any current means.
You could just pop for a DLT drive
OTOH, you can just start a petition to get people to make double sided blanks *AND* double sided drives...
If it's not double sided drives, but only double sided blanks, we can return to the era of FLIPPY DISKS
(SSDD, use a hole punch, use both sides )
i think my dad uses dvd x copy, but in any event, he copies DVDs all the time. the menus don't copy over, so popping in the DVD goes straight to the movie (you get none of the extras), but hey, it works.
... making back-ups.
btw, he's, ummm
I have a 4x drive, and it's never had a piece of 4x media in it. I buy 1x because it's cheap. I don't care that it takes an hour to record a disc; it takes me several hours to assemble the data to put on the disc. The first one is burned LONG before the next one is ready to start.
Once the discs are burned, it doesn't matter what speed they were recorded at.
5% of the number of player models on the market is not a very meaningful statistic at all. What matters is the number of units sold of each of those models. When you take into account how many units of each player model has been sold, DVD-R has a compatibility advantage far larger than 5%. The reason is that each of the older player models (the ones incompatible with DVD+R) has a far larger market share than each of the dozens of modern cheap $40 players that you tout. An older player model should not be weighed equally against a modern dime-a-dozen model, but that is exactly what you are doing with your 5% figure.
As to your assertion that DVD-R costs more, a quick check of actual selling prices reveals that DVD+R media is actually fractionally more expensive than DVD-R media. I'm not even going to bother checking drive prices because dual-format drives (both players and recorders) are already so cheap.
DVD+R can be a good solution for a private user of recordable DVDs, but if you plan to distribute DVDs to any large group of people you'd be crazy to use anything but DVD-R.
You really should have put "Eurofags" in quotes. I was about to meta-mod your insightful as unfair until I saw the context.
$130 for a burner? Where are you shopping? I haven't seen a DVD burner of either stripe for less than $250--online or in a brick-and-mortar retail store--and at that price, plus $2 a disc, I'm holding off.
It's about who owns that technology. The motives to promote a certain format are all about who gets the royalties when someone uses it. Many big players are on both sides, hence the reason one doesn't just die out.
warning: This post is likely to contain gobs of dripping sarcasm. Consume at your own risk.
I already saw movies on a blue laser Sony DVD player here in Japan. http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/03/04/blue.dvd. reut/
No, not a dual-layer DVD+R (ha ha made you look)... a customer who thought they were already available. I was in Central Computer today and some dumbass specifically asked for it... "no, you don't understand! I want a dual layer one, where are those?"
Thankfully the salesguy was knowledgeable enough to say "no sir... Philips just announced them, they're not actually making them yet." But I know that he was thinking (in Chinese) "god damn you're a dumbass."
And I happen to have one of those dual-format drives...... (Pioneer A06/106). Damned.
pleasen mod Parent UP
Yeah, when I first saw these, they were funny as hell, and no one got them, except for me. Then after a while they were getting stale, but then you came a long and summed them up quite nicely and I'm laughing my ass off!!
..."
:D (ROTFLMAO!
BTW, you forgot, "imagine a Beowulf cluster of these
HAHAHAHA !!!!
You Amewicans hawv a vewy BIIIG peenis. We Japanese hawv vewy smawll peenis. We cannot compeete wit yooo Amewicans. We are ashamed for owr vewy smAAAwlll peenis.
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