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Living on Mars Time

Roland Piquepaille writes "When NASA's rovers, 'Spirit' and 'Opportunity,' touch down on Mars next January, scientists and engineers in charge of the missions at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), will start to experiment with a 90-day period of jet lag. Why? Because, as reports Astrobiology Magazine, 'a day on Mars is 39.5 minutes longer than a day on Earth.' To accommodate the requirements of interplanetary communication, during the mission the Spirit science and engineering teams will have to live on Mars time, in synch with the red planet's cycle of light and dark. This means that, here on Earth, they'll sometimes be working during daylight hours, and at other times they'll be working through the night. This summary contains more details and a screenshot of the Mars24 application, a Java program which gives you the time on Mars."

234 comments

  1. well..... by boogy+nightmare · · Score: 4, Funny

    Have these people never had to work to a deadline before ???

    two words for them

    JOLT COLA :)

    --
    Kingdom of Loathing (www.kingdomofloathing.com) Addicted is me
    1. Re:well..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      it is much cheaper and easier to aquire your daily caffeine in pill form. I bought a bottle of 1000 pills of 100mg caffeine for $30 USD. Two pills is equivalent to 2 cups of coffee. When combined with other legal stimulants, you can get through exams week quite nicely.

    2. Re:well..... by Hentai · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Careful; "legal stimulants" stop being legal if it can be shown you're using them to have fun.

      What that means is between the judge, the police and whatever doctor they pick as an 'expert witness'.

      --
      -Hentai [in vita non pacem est]
    3. Re:well..... by AllUsernamesAreGone · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Which bit of "exam week" implies fun? ;)

    4. Re:well..... by Galvatron · · Score: 1, Interesting
      Two pills is equivalent to 2 cups of coffee.


      I see, and how much coffee is one pill equivalent to?


      As an aside, I prefer Penguin Mints. Approximately 14 mg each (3 mints = 1 can of Coke), so you get a much lower dose, but they're also some of the tastiest mints I've ever had, so I'd probably buy them even without the caffeine.

      --
      "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
    5. Re:well..... by Geekbot · · Score: 1

      Want my barely used tin of Penguin Mints? After tasting one of them I decided I'd rather lick caffiene pills off my dogs ass than have another of those fecal-vomit tasting caffiene pill wannabes.

    6. Re:well..... by Theaetetus · · Score: 1
      Nah...

      At an *additional* 100mg/500ml caffeine, real men make their coffee with Krank2O instead of water.

      Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go run around the block a half dozen times.

      -T

  2. does it matter all that much? by kurosawdust · · Score: 5, Funny
    "Hey, what time is it?"

    "Time to scoop up dust, analyze it and try to forget the fact that we pee through a tube."

    "Oh."

    1. Re:does it matter all that much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the JPL has better facilities than that.

    2. Re:does it matter all that much? by Seregi · · Score: 1

      Well..is it gonna be just like in David Bowie's song? Mickey Mouse is cow and stuff... Still.. who the heck would go there? No normal facilitys that we need in eveyday life. Maybe some grazy scientists want there or those nuts who're in serach for their family..

      --
      Take Care & Have Fun! ^_^
    3. Re:does it matter all that much? by swordboy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      does it matter all that much?

      I would be very curious about the implications on aging. I mean, is the physical age of one's body related to the solar cycle?

      --

      Life is the leading cause of death in America.
    4. Re:does it matter all that much? by davidstrauss · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I would be very curious about the implications on aging. I mean, is the physical age of one's body related to the solar cycle?

      I know that pet owners of iguanas often accelerate the "solar cycle" to end shedding earlier. I have no idea if it affects humans the same way.

    5. Re:does it matter all that much? by the_mad_poster · · Score: 1

      I doubt there would be any significant implications. Barring detrimental health effects, anyway.

      "Aging" is primarily affected by movement through time. Time is slowed down either by an increase in velocity in the first 3 dimensions (i.e. "move around faster") or an increase in gravity. The only effects that this trip would have on aging (again, barring detrimental health effects) would be due to the various changes in gravity and speed the travelers experience. However, the changes would be so miniscule (you have to be traveling a *significant* fraction of the speed of light or greatly increase/decrease gravity to change your own time noticeably) that this would result in an almost immeasurable difference in aging.

      --
      Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
    6. Re:does it matter all that much? by cyclist1200 · · Score: 1

      I dunno, those buildings are kinda old...

    7. Re:does it matter all that much? by afidel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The only important factor in biological aging is degredation of DNA, or more specifically the loss of DNA Tollemerase. As cells go through more divisions and replications the little pieces that keep the strands of DNA packed start to break down, and when they get unraveled enough the cells own mechanisms realize that they are old and disfunctional and the cell suicides. By capping these Tallemerase sites scientists have been able to make mice that live up to ten times longer than normal!

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    8. Re:does it matter all that much? by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      "I know that pet owners of iguanas often accelerate the "solar cycle" to end shedding earlier."
      This reminds me of a "half baked idea" that was dreamed up a while ago. Scientist were going accelerate the day-night cycle of a prayer plant to the point that if it was fast enough, the plant would pick up and fly away...It won first prize, I believe.

      --
      What?
    9. Re:does it matter all that much? by a1englishman · · Score: 1

      That's like asking "Do dogs not age because they can't tell time?"

    10. Re:does it matter all that much? by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      Telomerase. DNA telomerase.

      There are caps at the end of DNA, like the plastic thingies on your shoelaces. DNA cannot replicate the ends of strips (it requires a bit of area for primer) so you lose a bit of the strip every time you go through a replication cycle.

      DNA telomerase restores the ends. I am not sure if mice live ten times longer. However, there is a danger of cancer if cells can multiply uncontrollably. (This is a cause of some cancers, actually.)

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    11. Re:does it matter all that much? by Excen · · Score: 1

      It's Telemerase, by the way, and it's not lost per se, it's just overly distributed during many, many replications of DNA, and then broken down when cells die.

      /Anal Biochem Major in the middle of Finals

      --
      "No beer until you finish your tequila!" -Leela's Dad
    12. Re:does it matter all that much? by Excen · · Score: 1

      FU(K!!!!!! It's telomerase, and my brain has gone from fried to blackened.

      --
      "No beer until you finish your tequila!" -Leela's Dad
  3. Mars24? by Da+Fokka · · Score: 4, Funny

    A Java Application to display martian time? That sounds like a Java 101 excersise :)

    Although the screenshots do look pretty neat.

    1. Re:Mars24? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It's clearly more complicated than an introductory Java assignment, but it does show some interesting behavior.

      For instance the programmer uses checkbox menu items where selecting them constructs their respective windows, but unchecking them does absolutely nothing.

      Also if you go to the "Graphic Display" tab and select "Local Horizon" and then "Orbital Platform" the contents of the pane are not repainted properly.

    2. Re:Mars24? by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 1

      It's definitely a kind of "Hello world" program...

    3. Re:Mars24? by sukottoX · · Score: 1
      i didn't see this posted anywhere, but here's a link to the mars24 applet if you're interested.

      http://www.giss.nasa.gov/tools/mars24/

    4. Re:Mars24? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps it would be more useful if they made an application for "The Time on Earth" instead of "The Time On Mars". Just imagine, you could start up your computer and check out what time it is on Earth before going out, just so you know whether you can expect to meet other earthlings out there.

  4. Oh, those poor guys by The+Wing+Lover · · Score: 5, Funny
    This means that, here on Earth, they'll sometimes be working during daylight hours, and at other times they'll be working through the night

    Which is, of course, totally and completely different from what we do as computer people.

    --

    - In Capitalist America, law violates YOU!

    1. Re:Oh, those poor guys by CrackedButter · · Score: 1

      I wondering about the point of this story...its like i just want to say "duh". Big deal...40 minutes... is it that much of a life changing experience?

    2. Re:Oh, those poor guys by mwood · · Score: 4, Informative

      ISTR experiments done years ago (spending months living underground, away from the influence of daylight) which showed that the human circadian rhythm free-runs at a period of about 26 hours, so maybe 24.66 hours is not too bad.

      OTOH it could be a life-changing experience for some of them. Some people are more sensitive to the light/dark cycle than others. (See SAD, people who need melatonin supplements to get normal sleep in some parts of the year, etc.)

    3. Re:Oh, those poor guys by CrackedButter · · Score: 0

      Interesting, thankyou. But what is circadian?

    4. Re:Oh, those poor guys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You don't even have to live underground to experience this. I work for myself, and have a flexible schedule as a result. My days are typically 18 hours long, and I usually get 8 hours of sleep every night. Do the math and you can see that things slide back an average of 2 hours every calendar day.

      I get to see the entire range of my surroundings every two weeks - midnight, midday, etc. The biggest problem is trying to hit certain events scheduled by people on "normal" schedules, like jury duty. At some point you either have to stay up really late or wake up really early.

      My office has walls that face north and east, and there's plenty of direct light in the mornings. There's so much that I have to put something in the way to keep the glare out of my face at this time of the year due to the alignment of the sun with my windows. So you can't say I'm living in a cave - there are plenty of light cues here. I just don't seem to be affected by them.

    5. Re:Oh, those poor guys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what is circadian?

      From latin: "about a day". A circadian cicle is one which spans "more or less a day", like awakeness and sleep.

    6. Re:Oh, those poor guys by CrackedButter · · Score: 1

      This qualifies as the thing i learnt for today.

    7. Re:Oh, those poor guys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      But what is circadian?

      Someone from Circadia, obviously.

    8. Re:Oh, those poor guys by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      ISTR experiments done years ago (spending months living underground, away from the influence of daylight) which showed that the human circadian rhythm free-runs at a period of about 26 hours, so maybe 24.66 hours is not too bad.

      There were also experiments (maybe an extension of the same one) showing that humans could adapt to day/night cycles as short as 22 hours, or as long as 27.

      On an entirely unrelated note, my circadian rhythm not only free-runs at 26 hours, it also runs at 26 hours in the presence of a light/dark cycle and copious numbers of alarm clocks.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    9. Re:Oh, those poor guys by CracktownHts · · Score: 1
      (See SAD, people who need melatonin supplements to get normal sleep in some parts of the year, etc.)

      Don't forget that SAD also stands for "Social Anxiety Disorder". Luckily, to avert any confusion, Zoloft(tm) has been approved for treatment of both conditions. Ask your doctor for more information today! Zoloft(tm) - Because Life Happens to Everyone(r).

      This post brought to you by Pfizer - When You Know More About What's Wrong, You Can Help Make It Right(r).

    10. Re:Oh, those poor guys by Colonel+Panijk · · Score: 1

      OTOH it could be a life-changing experience for some of them. Some people are more sensitive to the light/dark cycle than others.

      Yeah, I'm waiting for some poor sap at JPL, all thrown out of kilter by the constantly changing work hours, to press the wrong button and destroy the mission. Then I will say I TOLD YOU SO!

  5. I just wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Will they also be learning to live with the Terrible Secret of Space?

  6. oh my ... by ignatus · · Score: 1, Funny

    This means that, here on Earth, they'll sometimes be working during daylight hours, and at other times they'll be working through the night.
    Oh my! I 'm allready living in mars time! :)

    --
    - Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
  7. Woot by christurkel · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Developed on Mac OS X. Cool! Seriously though, it will be interesting to see the engineers adjust to an ever changing schedule. And I thought 3rd shift was bad!

    --

    CDE open sourced! https://sourceforge.net/projects/cdesktopenv/
    1. Re:Woot by zhenlin · · Score: 1

      Specifically, Mac OS X Panther. I can tell those non-pinstriped title bars any day!

      Every changing schedule, eh? Ever heard of some hacker's 28-hour days?

    2. Re:Woot by turbosk · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm just coming home from a third shift right now, and as long as you get enough sleep, 3rd shift really isn't that bad. Having said that from personal experience, it's also true that many/most of the world's largest industrial accidents happen on the late night/overnight shifts.

      I think it would be even easier to adjust to a longer Mars day since sleep studies have found that, given no time cues, the human body naturally drifts into a 25-hour cycle, or circadian rhythm. (No backing evidence in this post, go lookitup yerseff.)

      going to bed now, to sleep, perchance to dream.....
      fred

    3. Re:Woot by Feztaa · · Score: 1

      given no time cues, the human body naturally drifts into a 25-hour cycle

      Strange; one year during summer vacation, I lived in a basement with no windows and no clocks -- my body quickly changed to a 36-hour cycle. I was alseep for 13 hours, then awake for 23.

      Drove my parent's crazy :)

    4. Re:Woot by mcmonkey · · Score: 1
      Strange; one year during summer vacation, I lived in a basement with no windows and no clocks -- my body quickly changed to a 36-hour cycle. I was alseep for 13 hours, then awake for 23.

      Wouldn't your clock reset when you left your parents' basement?

      [pause]

      Nevermind.

  8. Project Planning Fantasy by puppetluva · · Score: 4, Funny

    a day on Mars is 39.5 minutes longer than a day on Earth.

    Great. This is a project-planner's fantasy. Forget offshore, we should move our software projects off-planet.

    1. Re:Project Planning Fantasy by morpehus · · Score: 0

      hmmmm.... a development center on mars..... definite potential..... venture capitalists, where are you ppl ?

      :))

    2. Re:Project Planning Fantasy by Seahawk · · Score: 4, Funny

      Or even better - this means they can stay in bed those 30 minutes we all want to when its time to get up...

    3. Re:Project Planning Fantasy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually ISTR that the human daily cycle, without external influences, is closer to 25 hours than 24.

      Of course on Earth, there are external influences (such as the Sun).

  9. 25 hour cycle? by Tomahawk · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I once heard that, in test, the human body operates on a 25 hour cycle anyway, and we 'reset' our internal clocks ever day to fit in with the 24 hours of a day.

    IIRC, tests were carried out where volunteers lived underground with no access to the outside world - no TV, windows, etc. They could call up to the surface to request books, games, food, but nothing that would allow them to work out any sence of time (no clocks either!). It was found that they reverted to a 25 hour day...

    Shouldn't be too difficult for the scientists, or for colonization...

    1. Re:25 hour cycle? by boogy+nightmare · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, i think its more like a 28 hour cycle, i go caving a lot and when you stay down for several days (think camping but underground) you definatly change to 28 when you dont have to alter your clock for night and day.

      --
      Kingdom of Loathing (www.kingdomofloathing.com) Addicted is me
    2. Re:25 hour cycle? by Tomahawk · · Score: 1

      That would explain then why I'm always so tired - I'm also suffering from 'jet lag' of 4 hours or so... ;-)

    3. Re:25 hour cycle? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      These experiments were found to be invalid, because the people were given the ability to change the light level (ie there were dimmer switches on the bulbs). The bright artificial light was resetting their internal clocks to a longer day. A repeat of the experiment in constant dim lighting gave the result that people naturally live a 24-hour day.

    4. Re:25 hour cycle? by jarran · · Score: 1

      But how do you "reset" your internal clock? Your body uses sunlight as a cue. This is precisely why working night shifts messes people up. Your body sees the light doing one thing, and your daily routine is trying to do another.

      And it's also why some people have trouble adjusting to the winter months - our current time system doesn't sync to well with the sun. I know that I personally get up far earlier in the summer months when it's light.

    5. Re:25 hour cycle? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I naturally function during the night hours. In fact I should be going to sleep shortly, as it's really already fairly late for me.

    6. Re:25 hour cycle? by JavaLord · · Score: 3, Funny

      actually we revert to a 24.39 hour life cycle which proves we are all really martians.

    7. Re:25 hour cycle? by SamSim · · Score: 1

      Great, an extra 40 minutes in bed every day!

    8. Re:25 hour cycle? by sunhou · · Score: 1

      Ever since I was about 10 years old and heard about those experiments of putting people in caves to study their natural time cycles, I've always been interested in participating in such an experiment.

      The closest I came was when I was an undergrad, spending summers working at Los Alamos National Lab. I was doing some computer work, and my boss didn't really care what time of day I worked, as long as I did my stuff. So for about a month I stopped paying attention to clocks and schedules. I'd sleep when I was tired, until I woke up naturally. Go in to work, and when I felt like I'd done enough, go home. Fortunately there was a 24-hour supermarket nearby, so I could do my shopping at 3am. My apartment had heavy curtains, so I could keep the place pretty dark when I wanted to sleep, even if it was sunny outside.

      I ended up on roughly a 25-hour day, although it varied. It was really quite relaxing. It was a little odd though, when my boss came in to the office at 7:30am and saw me there, he wouldn't know if I was just getting started, or about to go home.

      I wish I could do it again, but now I'm teaching classes, I can't exactly do that on my own schedule.

    9. Re:25 hour cycle? by satyap · · Score: 1

      So we're all Martians anyway.

      More likely, the Earth's rotation was a bit slower a few million years ago.

    10. Re:25 hour cycle? by jsebrech · · Score: 1

      Rhis was very visible in the local version of one of the big brother seasons, where they completely cut off any and all access to the outside world and knowledge of time. You could see people getting up and going to bed a little later each day, while they still believed to be following the same routine. Eventually big brother had to step in and inform them of the time, because they were sleeping during live broadcasts.

      Most people think big brother is a travesty, but I think it's pretty interesting as a social experiment. You can learn a lot about people by watching it.

    11. Re:25 hour cycle? by zCyl · · Score: 1

      These experiments were found to be invalid, because the people were given the ability to change the light level (ie there were dimmer switches on the bulbs). The bright artificial light was resetting their internal clocks to a longer day.

      The conclusion that a 25 hour day is inherent may be invalid, but the data is not. The natural environment we're born into these days is one of bright artificial light which we control. If under these conditions we have a tendency to tune to a 25 hour day, then that is a valid conclusion.

    12. Re:25 hour cycle? by TheLink · · Score: 1

      If our bodies are such that you feel sleepy some time after it gets dark and if the dimmer thing is true then the 24+ hours could be because people don't tend to turn the lights down an hour in advance before they try to sleep. They turn the lights out and then try to sleep.

      Now if the lights are on all the time, what would the cycle be?

      --
    13. Re:25 hour cycle? by Radical+Rad · · Score: 1
      More likely, the Earth's rotation was a bit slower a few million years ago.

      Actually the earths rotation is slowing due to internal friction caused by the moon and tides.

    14. Re:25 hour cycle? by DiSKiLLeR · · Score: 1

      Big brother is interesting in that regard, yes.

      Here in Australia the same thing happened!

      But they have always had their own solution. Big Brother is usually airing when the weather isn't particularly hot... showers have hot water available for about 30 mins starting from 10am every day.

      So the housemates have to get up to have their shower, or they are stuck having a cold one....

      It usually works. 1 or 2 housemates are always up ready to have their shower, the rest ignore it...

      They usually try to come up with interesting solutions, such as getting hot water from the sink to use in the shower, etc to get around the hot water shower restrictions ;)

      People stuck in a house for 3 months come up with all sorts of intersting solutions to problems that the show planners never thought of... and sometimes they end up having to intervene to stop the housemates.

      In big brother 2003, the house mates were seperated into two houses, and both of them built a sun dial!

      D.

      --
      You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
  10. 25-26 Hour Sleep Cycle by davidstrauss · · Score: 4, Informative

    I don't see how this would be a problem. Several credible reports exist that say our natural body clock cycle is 25-26 hours, making the adjustment to "Mars time" rather painless.

    1. Re:25-26 Hour Sleep Cycle by CaptainAlbert · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > our natural body clock cycle is 25-26 hours,
      > making the adjustment to "Mars time" rather
      > painless.

      Painless - assuming, that is, that NASA have the technology to produce a localized variation in the hours of daylight...

      And have you ever tried to order out for pizza at 9am (Earth time)? Not even Stephen Hawking has a fix for that one. :)

      --
      These sigs are more interesting tha
    2. Re:25-26 Hour Sleep Cycle by davidstrauss · · Score: 1
      And have you ever tried to order out for pizza at 9am (Earth time)? Not even Stephen Hawking has a fix for that one. :)

      There's always DiGiorno. Also, don't forget that other scientists, namely astronomers, have displaced sleep schedules, even though they keep a 24-hour day. Pizza is hard to order at 05:00 also.

    3. Re:25-26 Hour Sleep Cycle by Larsing · · Score: 1

      That's why I stick to falaffel.
      My local falaffel shop is open 10 to 7 (yes, that is on a 24 hour clock)!

      --
      Ethics is what you say you do. Morals is what you actually do.
    4. Re:25-26 Hour Sleep Cycle by sklib · · Score: 3, Informative

      The hours of daylight only matter if you have a window in your office, and depend on that for lighting. Almost every enginering lab I've been in was buried in the middle of a huge building, with maybe a row of covered windows on one side. To make it seem like "work-time", all they have to do is keep the lights on.

      Also, if they expect engineers to work at weird hours of the night, surely they will also keep a couple of people around in the cafeteria to cook pizza. And when all else fails, there's always hot pockets. Besides, all the NASA people have probably gone through this sort of schedule-shifting in college, so I'm sure they know all the tricks.

      --
      -S
    5. Re:25-26 Hour Sleep Cycle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These cycles and periods depend realy on particular person. For instance, my girlfriend has a 25 hours periods too (at leas according to what she is saying)

    6. Re:25-26 Hour Sleep Cycle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      JPL has thick shades to cover the windows where people are operating on Mars time. After one of the operational readiness tests, somebody complained that the black-colored shades made it seem like it was always dark outside, and it was making him tired.

  11. Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Was that an attempt to a Dilbert-like humorous joke?
    If so, please try again.

    1. Re:Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes.

  12. So... by Trashman · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...When are going to switch to the "Stardate" notation of time?

    --
    Do not read this .sig
  13. Find people with longer circadian cycles by G4from128k · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Not everyone has a body clock that runs on an exact 24 hour cycle. Some people's circadian rhythms run as fast as 23 hours/cycle, some as slow as 25 hrs/cycle. JPL could test its employees for their natural cycle. A few days in a sleep test chamber quickly show which people tend to get up earlier and earlier each day vs. those that get up later and later. Then, they could selectively use people whose body clock matches that of Mars. Of course, I would still pity the families of the people that are on Mars time.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
    1. Re:Find people with longer circadian cycles by kasperd · · Score: 1

      A few days in a sleep test chamber...

      Simpler than that, just pick those who regularily oversleep.

      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
    2. Re:Find people with longer circadian cycles by V_drive · · Score: 1

      if i lived on mars time, could i impress women by telling them i have a long circadian cycle?

      --
      char *mySig;
  14. Working time directive by vbprisoner · · Score: 1, Funny

    My understanding is that we (as in humans) are set up for a slightly longer day than 24 hours (I don't understand the science behind it). So perhaps it would be more appropriate for the crew to work to Mars time & the support team to *support* the people who are in a rather more stressful situation by working funny hours for a bit. Blimey, they can always record the Simpsons if they don't want to miss it.

    --
    But I wore the juice
    1. Re:Working time directive by davidstrauss · · Score: 2, Funny
      Blimey, they can always record the Simpsons if they don't want to miss it.

      I can see it now: special edition TiVo for people on "Mars time."

    2. Re:Working time directive by Igmuth · · Score: 1

      Ummm.. what stressful situation? They are tele-operating robots from the comfort of their office chairs

  15. Re:25-26 Hour Sleep Cycle (Clarification) by davidstrauss · · Score: 1
    25-26 hours

    Yes, I'm award the BBC report says 24 hours and 11 minutes. Still, it seems like as much of an adjustment living on strictly 24-hours as slightly more than 24 hours, 11 minutes.

  16. Sounds like a crazy idea by zhenlin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why? Changing the length of such a fundemental unit of time (other than one Planck unit of time) without changing its name is sure to cause confusion.

    Not to mention, each measure of time will have to multiplied by a number not very much greater or smaller than 1, possibly causing precision problems, in order to convert it between Earth seconds and Mars seconds.

    While I applaud the effort to make it easier to count time on Mars - I think, that in the bigger picture, it is not a good idea to use different fundemental units of time.

    Even in the Clarke's 3001, the Ganymedes ignored the local time and measured the time in Earth units. If I recall correctly, they measured time with respect to UTC on Earth, completely ignoring local time.

    1. Re:Sounds like a crazy idea by richie2000 · · Score: 3, Funny
      completely ignoring local time.

      Well, say you set up a lunch meeting with the Martians at 12 o'clock sharp and you show up 15 minutes late, what does that say about us as a species? Is that really the message you want to send them?

      --
      Money for nothing, pix for free
    2. Re:Sounds like a crazy idea by jgabby · · Score: 0

      "What's the airspeed velocity of a coconut laden swallow? ...Martian or Terran time scale?"

    3. Re:Sounds like a crazy idea by jonknee · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure the operational definition of a second is the amount of time it takes your planet to go 86,400 of it's rotation. Call them Earth seconds or Martian seconds, but they are still just seconds.

    4. Re:Sounds like a crazy idea by SamSim · · Score: 1

      If I recall correctly, they measured time with respect to UTC on Earth, completely ignoring local time.

      If I recall correctly, in 3001, Jupiter had been detonated as a star, pretty much banishing day and night and completely messing up any notion of time zones on Earth, which helped speed the universal use of UTC.

    5. Re:Sounds like a crazy idea by MCZapf · · Score: 4, Informative
      That definition is about four decades out-of-date. The official SI definition is currently this:
      The second is the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom.

      The reason for this definition is that the old one was too imprecise. See Base unit definitions: Second.

    6. Re:Sounds like a crazy idea by Rubyflame · · Score: 1

      So time stops on tidally-locked planets? Awesome!

      --

      All it takes is nukes and nerves.
  17. Now theres a fuckup waiting to happen? by baadfood · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A day thats still 24 hours long, but 39 minutes longer than an earth day? Is that Earth or Mars minutes now? We have enough problems (rockets blowing up etc.) caused by converting between the dissimilar metric and imperial units - who exactly thought redefining minutes and seconds to be slightly longer on mars was a good idea? Thats going to lead to something very expensive.

    1. Re:Now theres a fuckup waiting to happen? by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      Think of it as an opportunity! If we can cause enough interest and FUD, maybe there'll be some jobs created to fix the H24 problem.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    2. Re:Now theres a fuckup waiting to happen? by pizzaman100 · · Score: 1
      A day thats still 24 hours long, but 39 minutes longer than an earth day? Is that Earth or Mars minutes now?

      Maybe we can redirect an appropriately sized asteroid to hit Mars and increase the planet's rotation speed by 39 minutes.

      Or heck, redirect one towards earth to slow us down. :)

    3. Re:Now theres a fuckup waiting to happen? by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      A day thats still 24 hours long, but 39 minutes longer than an earth day? Is that Earth or Mars minutes now? We have enough problems (rockets blowing up etc.) caused by converting between the dissimilar metric and imperial units - who exactly thought redefining minutes and seconds to be slightly longer on mars was a good idea? Thats going to lead to something very expensive.

      Scientific calculations are always done in seconds, which are part of the metric system, and very rigorously defined. Defining "day" and "year" (and possibly "hour" and "minute") in terms of the local period of revolution makes sense, as those are the "everyday" units most people use.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    4. Re:Now theres a fuckup waiting to happen? by baadfood · · Score: 1

      Certainly, defining the day as anything other than a complete revolution (relative to the changing position of the sun) is pretty useless. The article though specifically mentions they stretched the length of a martian second.

    5. Re:Now theres a fuckup waiting to happen? by pavon · · Score: 1

      Think thats bad? The egyptians and babylonians had a time system that had 12 "hours" of daylight and 12 "hours" of darkness regardless of how long the day was.

  18. On the subject of Mars... by Aardpig · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...lets not forget that the European Space Agency's Mars Express mission has almost reached the red planet, and that the British-built Beagle 2 probe onboard will be touching down on Christmas Day, to begin its search for life. I for one am very excited!

    --
    Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    1. Re:On the subject of Mars... by purrpurrpussy · · Score: 1

      DAMN RIGHT!!!! I reckon this is going to be one of the most exciting chrimbos EVER! I think I need a large bottle of Rum, a big TV and a decent net connection then I'm set for chrimbo day!

      Let's hope it doesn't just smash into Mars! GOOD LUCK COLIN PILLINGER AND EVERYONE ELSE INVOLVED IN BEAGLE!!!!

      Yeah - I sound like a rabid cheerleader but I'm excited too!!

      --
      "None of this shit works" -W.Shatner
    2. Re:On the subject of Mars... by calibanDNS · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Mars24 application lets you mark several 'Martian landmarks' on the map that it provides. This includes the Beagle 2's landing sight. I don't see Mars Express in the list, but the Jar includes an XML document of the landmarks, so if they've done their job you simply need to add entries to the XML document.

      On a similar note, looking at the contents of the Mars24 app reveals classes named EarthTime, MarsTime, and TitanTime. So, I'm wondering why they didn't include the functionality to let us monitor Titan time as well.

    3. Re:On the subject of Mars... by snake_dad · · Score: 1
      Don't forget that on Dec. 19th we have the very important separation of Beagle2 and Mars Express. Make or break time for the mission!

      At 9:31 CET, ESA's ground control team at Darmstadt (Germany) will send the command for the Beagle 2 lander to separate from Mars Express. A pyrotechnic device will be fired to slowly release a loaded spring, which will gently push Beagle 2 away from the mother spacecraft.

      Data on the spacecraft's position and speed will be used by mission engineers to assess whether the lander was successfully released. In addition, the onboard Visual Monitoring Camera (VMC) should provide an image showing the lander slowly moving away. The image is expected to be available mid-afternoon.

      --
      karma capped .sig seeking available Slashdot poster for long-term relationship.
  19. Obviously a good idea by BabyDave · · Score: 1, Funny

    'cause A Mars day helps you work, rest and play

  20. Well now... by freidog · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A day on Mars, which is known as a "sol," consists of 24 hours, just like a day on Earth. Each hour contains 60 minutes; each minute 60 seconds. There's nothing magical about that. Scientists simply got together and declared it to be so. But there's a catch. A martian second is a smidge longer than what you're used to on Earth. Think of it this way: Instead of counting, "One Mississippi, two Mississippi" count "One Mississippis, two Mississippis."

    yes, because redefining the basic elements by which we measure time is SOOOOO much simpler than making a Martian day 24 hours and 40 minutes long...

    A meter is defined as distanced traveled by light in a vaccum in an amount of time, is a meter longer on mars now?

    1. Re:Well now... by Polkyb · · Score: 0

      That's a damn good point... Would that make my cars top speed faster or slower...? :-)

      --
      I've never shoed a horse, but I once told a donkey to piss off!
    2. Re:Well now... by pe1rxq · · Score: 1

      Since the second lasts longer there it will be faster (more time to spend moving)
      Better yet: Since mars is smaller than earth some idiot is going to sugest redifining the meter on mars to be smaller and thus making your cars speed even faster.
      The same idiot is probably also going to redefine G to be the same as the gravity on the surface of mars and thus your car will not only have a ridicilous top speed it will also be able to accelerate really fast.....

      Jeroen

      --
      Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
    3. Re:Well now... by Polkyb · · Score: 0, Funny

      I was thinking more along the lines of.. "I'm sorry officer, it's this damn Martian speedo I had fitted..."

      --
      I've never shoed a horse, but I once told a donkey to piss off!
    4. Re:Well now... by pe1rxq · · Score: 1

      In that case I would install a Neptune speedo in my car....
      With a Martion speedo the police would get you off the road for driving to slow.....

      Jeroen

      --
      Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
    5. Re:Well now... by banzai51 · · Score: 1

      That depends on the strength of the gravity well and your frame of reference.

    6. Re:Well now... by Fenris2001 · · Score: 1

      Ahem.

      On October 20, 1980, the meter was redefined. The definition states that the meter is the length of the path traveled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299,792,458 of a second. The speed of light is c = 299,792,458 m/s.

      So if Martian seconds are longer, then you would change the time interval to match, and the meter would stay the same length.

      One thing nobody seems to get: They didn't just sit down and decide to define a Martian second arbitrarily. The guys at JPL are smart. If it was more convenient to measure Martian sols in terrestrial units, they would.

      The main reason to have Martian sols be exactly 24 units long has to do with celestial navigation and orbiting the planet. Go read Zubrin's Case for Mars if you want the gritty details.

      --
      ---------------
      Vpered na Mars!
    7. Re:Well now... by ScottSpeaks! · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I can understand the motivation to redefine the length of a "second", as a convenience for the researchers on this mission who expect to find the sun directly overhead their instruments at noon. But it's just a fundamentally bad idea as a precedent for interplanetary time-keeping.

      Why not just reprogram their clocks to stop for 39.5 minutes in the middle of the night, and let these hard-working people get some extra shut-eye?

      Redefining the smaller units to compensate for a difference in the length of the longer ones is just so arbitrary. What about the difference in the length of the Martian year? Are they going to redefine the "week" to 13 days so that there are still (roughly) 52 of them in each year?

      And then there's back-porting the length of a "month"... {pulls hair out}

    8. Re:Well now... by b-baggins · · Score: 1

      Doesn't work that way. There's a reason the second is defined as the basic SI unit of time. You start playing around with your basic units of measure, then all your derived units are screwed.

      Now, if the folks at JPL make the Martian Second a derived unit, called a MarSec or something equally inane, but based upon the SI time unit of the second, then perhaps this will work.

      That is, until someone forgets to convert units and we wind up with another hundred million down the toilet.

      --
      You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
    9. Re:Well now... by meznak · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, the standard for one second was the period of one lightwave emitted from a cesium atom. Are we now changing the fundamentals of atomic resonance? If you ask me, they should have changed the length of the other time measurements (minute, hour, day, year) and given them a different name to prevent confusion.

      On another note, I found a paper that poses another interesting concept.

      --
      Evil is the money of all root.
    10. Re:Well now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's Mars. That should be One Valles Marineris, two Valles Marineris, three Valles Marineris....

  21. Re:A mars day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Im sure he doesnt have a boss anyway

  22. 24/7 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Well, that dratted "24/7" slogan is definitely doomed on Mars.

    1. Re:24/7 by jmansfield · · Score: 1

      Well, if the Martian day is 39 minutes longer, that comes to 24.65 days, which rounded to 3 sig figs comes out to 24.7 ...

      Easy fix, then: just change the slash to a period in all instances of the slogan ;-)

      -Jim

    2. Re:24/7 by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

      and since the day is like 23 hours and so many minutes, it doesn't mean much here either.

    3. Re:24/7 by BigGerman · · Score: 1

      39 minutes is just about enough to install patches, reboot, restart and re-test the applications so for a Windows shop it is ok ;-)

  23. Not a big deal by Pedrito · · Score: 1

    Lots of people work alternating shifts that leave them with much worse schedules than this, and they get by fine. Or they go insane. No, I'm kidding. Seriously, a 40 minutes/day difference is nothing to adjust to. The hard part is just getting used to being awake and working at night if you haven't done it.

    I personally work much better when I can actually see sunlight. Even cloudy days slow me down a bit (which is part of the reason I live 4 blocks from a caribbean beach in Mexico). But I've worked schedules worse than that for periods of months without any problem.

  24. What unit is that measured in? by halo8 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Mars Time????

    Is that Metric or is that Imperial?

    I mean.. like.. shouldnt they wait to see if it actually lands this time?

    --
    The More Knowledge you have the Luckier you Get- J.R. Ewing
  25. Mars day so close to Earth day by BallPeenHammer · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I find it remarkable that the length of a Mars day is nearly the same as an Earth day. The two planets have had very different kinds of histories. Plus, the Moon's gravitational effect is gradually slowing down the Earth's rotation, effectively lengthening the day.

    I wonder what comparable effects (2 moons?) on Mars have led to both planets having similar days.

    Or, is this just how the Designers planned this particular planetary system?

    1. Re:Mars day so close to Earth day by FroBugg · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Phobos and Diemos (the Martian moons) are both significantly smaller than our moon, so their effect on the planet is much less.

      If you really want to think about a celestial coincidence, watch a solar eclipse. The fact that the angular dimensions of both the sun and moon from Earth are nearly identical (depending on orbital variations, you sometimes get annular eclipses, where a narrow ring of the sun is visible) has always entertained me. Especially when you consider that the moon's orbit is (very, very) slowly changing, and intelligent life is around at just the right time to appreciate the effect.

    2. Re:Mars day so close to Earth day by CrystalFalcon · · Score: 1

      Or, is this just how the Designers planned this particular planetary system?

      All the fjords on Mars have evaporated, so any possible designer signatures are, unfortunately, lost in time.

    3. Re:Mars day so close to Earth day by CrystalFalcon · · Score: 1

      The fact that the angular dimensions of both the sun and moon from Earth are nearly identical

      Yup, this is one of my two faves. The other one is the lunar orbit coinciding perfectly with the lunar rotation, so that the same side of the moon always faces Earth.

      Not as spectacular, but certainly a coincidence with consequences.

    4. Re:Mars day so close to Earth day by HeghmoH · · Score: 1

      That's not coincidence, that's a result of tide locking. Tides create friction in a rotating body which slows it down and it eventually stops. This is why the Earth's rotation is slowing down, why the Moon's orbit is getting bigger (angular momentum transfers from the Earth to the Moon) and why the Moon always shows the same face to the Earth. See Mercury for another example, it's not locked but it rotates exactly 1.5 times for every orbit. There are other examples as well, I'm sure.

      --
      Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
    5. Re:Mars day so close to Earth day by ShavenYak · · Score: 1

      The other one is the lunar orbit coinciding perfectly with the lunar rotation, so that the same side of the moon always faces Earth.

      Not as spectacular, but certainly a coincidence with consequences.


      That's not really so much of a coincidence. It's a result of the Earth's gravity. Given enough time, any satellite will end up like that (or possibly in some other kind of resonance, like Mercury's 2/3 day and year or whatever it is).

      What's more, the effect works in reverse too. The Earth's gravity is speeding up the Moon's orbit as the Moon's gravity slows down the Earth's rotation. Theoretically our day and month will be the same length of time and the Moon will be locked in one position in the sky. It will end up further away from us, though, so no more total eclipses of the Sun. But IIRC this process won't be finished before the Sun goes red giant.

      Needless to say, there won't be any solar eclipses then, either!

      --

      Hey kids, there's only 5 days left 'til Yak Shaving Day!
    6. Re:Mars day so close to Earth day by kalidasa · · Score: 1

      The really scary one (also due to gravitational effects, and not merely a coincidence) is Venus - the day is 3/2 an earth year.

    7. Re:Mars day so close to Earth day by BallPeenHammer · · Score: 1
      I'm sure it's all JUST a COINCIDENCE.

      At least, that's what I'm supposed to be sure of.

  26. Time Slip by Dr.+Hok · · Score: 4, Informative

    I wonder when they'll adopt the 'time slip' as suggested by Kim Stanley Robinson in 'Red Mars':
    The day has 24 'official' hours; the 39+ extra minutes are, well, extra: party time!

    --
    Say out loud: I'm an Aspie and I'm somewhat proud, I guess. Uh. Can I write an email in all caps instead? Hm...
    1. Re:Time Slip by Dr.+Hok · · Score: 0

      Funny, I didn't know I am not a scientist!

      --
      Say out loud: I'm an Aspie and I'm somewhat proud, I guess. Uh. Can I write an email in all caps instead? Hm...
    2. Re:Time Slip by Dr.+Hok · · Score: 1
      Granted. I just thought my PhD would.

      You (if you are the same AC as before) are of course right that the socialist part of Stanley's fiction is inane.

      The capitalist part (the optimistic assumption that a whole planetary biosphere can be built almost without effort) is even worse.

      But still it is fun reading. And as a physicist, I can assure you that I've seen much worse SciFi in my life.

      --
      Say out loud: I'm an Aspie and I'm somewhat proud, I guess. Uh. Can I write an email in all caps instead? Hm...
    3. Re:Time Slip by gobbo · · Score: 1
      About the same time they adopt Robinson's inane socialist utopia. What is it with you non-scientists defining the world by science fiction authors? It's perplexing.

      SF is a thought experiment in the social realm, technology included, and you shouldn't expect much less. Robinson is using utopian ideas influenced in large part by Fredric Jameson [among others], which means he's fairly well-informed on large-scale social trends. (Not to mention making probably the best literary adaptation of geomorphology to Mars.) SF usually tends to either the utopian or dystopian or some mix, because that's a big part of what makes it exploratory and entertaining. The interesting thing about the politics of the Mars trilogy is that he's examining how the new frontier will play out, given the dominant social trends of the past few hundred years... Not really meant to be predictive, merely plausible and instructive.

      The idea of the 'time slip' is interesting from the point of view of how people removed from 'the old country' deal with new frontier conditions and old traditions [he's very focussed on the history of the American West]. If his use of ideology seems alien to you, that's part of what he's getting at. Deal with it.

      [P.S. -- ever hear of satellites? Naw, just an SF pipe dream.]

    4. Re:Time Slip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Granted. I just thought my PhD would.

      Can I read your dissertation?

      You (if you are the same AC as before) are of course right that the socialist part of Stanley's fiction is inane.

      Very much of the Mars trilogy was inane, I simply picked the first idealic cultural depiction that came to mind. I could have said, "when they decide to be one-dimensional characters in mediocre literature," but that seemed to be an inadequate fit.

      The capitalist part (the optimistic assumption that a whole planetary biosphere can be built almost without effort) is even worse.

      I'm unfamiliar with any capitalist theory that suggests terraforming planets would require no effort. The most pertinent references in the books to capitalism, that I recall, are transnational conglomerates leaving Earth disheveled, only later to attempt to wage war against the populations on Mars, and the unrelated considerable number of pages containing comments about the very Green 'ecoeconomics.' The specious idea that Mars could be easily transformed was made by the main physicist, Sax Russel, who was largely unconcerned with economics.

    5. Re:Time Slip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [P.S. -- ever hear of satellites? Naw, just an SF pipe dream.]

      I can assure you that the Earth's moon predates Arthur C. Clarke by a considerable quantum of time.

      Robinson is using utopian ideas influenced in large part by Fredric Jameson [among others], which means he's fairly well-informed on large-scale social trends.

      It means absolutely nothing.

      Not really meant to be predictive, merely plausible and instructive.

      Robinson engages in hackneyed one-dimensional explorations of individual and social archetypes for the purposes of demonstrating the superiority of his ideals. You could read Ayn Rand and receive the same treatment from the author.

      The idea of the 'time slip' is interesting from the point of view of how people removed from 'the old country' deal with new frontier conditions and old traditions

      It's impractical, boring, and hardly a theme that is expressed for the colonization of any of the other planets during the course of the books.

      If his use of ideology seems alien to you, that's part of what he's getting at.

      It's hardly alien, it's an incredibly common tactic by authors of philosophy-as-drama. It's also not an especially entertaining writing style.

      Deal with it.

      How about you deal with my criticisms, you obnoxious child.

    6. Re:Time Slip by gobbo · · Score: 2, Informative

      You need to go back and read the trilogy [you don't have to read it carefully to get this]. There is much ado about the complicated economic relationships driving the development of terraforming [not just some boneheaded sense of capitalism vs. socialism], and frequent reference to the unprecedented expense of these mega-mega-projects. There is no "optimistic assumption" that terraforming is without effort, quite the contrary. It's described as the most expensive and difficult human endeavour ever undertaken, made easier by automation and new technologies, but massive nonetheless. The cost of all this is borne out by the long view of the organizations involved. You were perhaps mislead by quirky characters like Russell who are so focussed on their jobs that the politics and economics ennabling their work are alien to them, and that obvious failing is a significant bit of character development.

      The most pertinent references to capitalism and the "metanationals" of the time are explorations of trends like conglomeration, client states, and neo-syndicates. At the time the book was written, one division of Mitsubishi had a larger economy than Indonesia, and very little literature, even SF, explores issues like this. Alternative economies being explored by those under some kind of economic yoke is a history enshrined in the American past. So why is it inane? Because some of the influential characters are foaming-at-the-mouth pinkos and libertarians? Eco-economics is much less described in the series than issues of history and memory, or many of its other epic themes, but it's relevant to ideas of how frontiers involve developing new economics.

      I'm interested in your examples of speculative fiction of the near future where political extrapolation/exploration is not inane.

      "Ideology is like halitosis: it's something someone else has." [Paraphrasing Eagleton]

    7. Re:Time Slip by mkeeley · · Score: 1

      I thought this was a cool idea too: All clocks stop at 0:00:00 (go blank/blink/whatever) and then start at 0:00:01 again 39 or so minutes later.

    8. Re:Time Slip by Neil+Watson · · Score: 1

      If all clocks stop for 39 minutes then were is the accountability? How will security systems continue to log events?

    9. Re:Time Slip by Sparr0 · · Score: 1

      you would just timestamp the slip as 13:00:00-13:38:59. accounting for this in software would be no more difficult than accounting for leap years (and missing leap years) in a calendar.

    10. Re:Time Slip by Sparr0 · · Score: 1

      and of course when I typed "13" I really meant "24"... and of note is that 24:00:00 would NOT be the same time as 00:00:00, as they would be 39 minutes apart.

    11. Re:Time Slip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The cost of all this is borne out by the long view of the organizations involved. You were perhaps mislead by quirky characters like Russell who are so focussed on their jobs that the politics and economics ennabling their work are alien to them, and that obvious failing is a significant bit of character development.

      You're clearly not thinking of me, since I specifically stated that "The specious idea that Mars could be easily transformed was made by the main physicist, Sax Russel, who was largely unconcerned with economics." Although the actual "costs" of terraforming Mars are never adequately addressed by the author, I'd hardly suggest that any single archetype, such as Sax, represented the views of the author. Introducing organisms, wind-powered heaters, genetic-engineering, and the other mechanisms of transforming Mars into a planet of life are all implemented virtually freely. You should probably keep your discussion at least superficially on topic to what I state, as I really have no interest in discussing the philosophy of the author; the books simply aren't sufficiently interesting.

      At the time the book was written, one division of Mitsubishi had a larger economy than Indonesia, and very little literature, even SF, explores issues like this.

      You'll have to define the issue which you believe should be explored here. The unequal distribution of wealth in the world? The specific financial situation of multinational corporations? The evils of the amassment of private wealth? Without specifically knowing what you think is addressed, it's hard to understand specifically what you are claiming here.

      Alternative economies being explored by those under some kind of economic yoke is a history enshrined in the American past.

      What alternative economies are explored in the Mars trilogy?

      So why is it inane? Because some of the influential characters are foaming-at-the-mouth pinkos and libertarians?

      If by "it" you mean some vaporous valuation of nature undefined in Robinson's constant bombardment of ecoeconomics inbetween instances of rendering discussion to little more than elementary manipulations of Kc values, while systematically failing to substantiate each and every social progression of Robinson's superior socialist utopia, I think it's none too obscure why it's inane. Robinson's one-dimensional characters are boring but they exist solely to demonstrate archetypes to further a social agenda that is irrational and never substantiated within the text. As I told you before I can read Ayn Rand and receive the same treatment from the author.

      I'm interested in your examples of speculative fiction of the near future where political extrapolation/exploration is not inane.

      I'm sorry, I have no interest in joining your book club. If you find that your personal philosophies align sufficiently with Robinson's such that the hackneyed writing and poorly-based eventualities of his ideals don't pop out at you, then I frankly have little interest in discussing other works of fiction with you.

  27. Just an excuse by mntgomery · · Score: 1

    Oh, this is just a fancy, shmancy NASA way of solving the age old problem that there are not enough hours in the day.

    But as several people have noted, this is not that different from what computer people deal with all the time. The major difference is that the NASA scientists get to go through a gradual transition from working in daylight to working at night. . . unlike winding down a 10+ hour day, only to find out a server is on the fritz and staying another 10+ trying to fix it.

    --

    This comment was generated by a squadron of trained super elite albino ninja chickens for you.
  28. How will cron like this??? by MrPink2U · · Score: 2, Funny

    30 24 * * * /usr/bin/phone.home >/dev/null 2>&1

  29. A simple solution by AndroidCat · · Score: 3, Informative

    Just sleep in an extra 39 minutes every morning. It works for me!

    --
    One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    1. Re:A simple solution by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      Up 2 points of informative for my post? Now you people are really starting to scare me! :^P

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  30. Why adjust the clock? by galt2112 · · Score: 1

    This is stupid. Submarines run on an 18 hour day and still manage to communicate very well with shore communications facilities, which use the standard 24 hour day.

  31. Just an idle question: Why?
    Is it because the probe is solar powered and has no batteries, so can't do any work at night, or because we can't talk to it when it's on the wrong side of mars?
    Otherwise I'd have thought there'd be work to do all the time, so there's not much point in worrying about martian daylight time. We never went over to 28-day days for moon missions.

    --
    In soviet russia stale jokes recycle you!
    1. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes

      you are correct.

  32. It doesn't run directly off the solar cells by kippy · · Score: 1

    actually, the rover has solar panels that do nothing but charge the onboard batteries. Since the power coming in from panels could go up or down, it makes much more sense to have the thing run off of batteries for a constant charge and then recharge the batteries with the solar cells.

  33. We need metric time! by Cyno01 · · Score: 1

    10 hours a day, 100 minutes an hour, 100 seconds a minute. 1 day = 100000. 1 metric second = .864 "standard" (the prayer schedual of 13th century monks or something...) seconds. Should make for easy conversions between planets and such.

    --
    "Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
  34. An extra episode of 24 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wow, that's almost enough time to fit in an extra episode of '24', especially if you cut out the commercials. Woo-hoo! More Elisha Cuthbert!

  35. Metric time? by brucmack · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There have been lots of other posts about them changing the fundamental unit of time to do this, but what struck me is that they aren't using metric time. I would think that for a scientific endeavour such as this, where they are modifying the unit of time anyway, they would use a base-10 system instead of our current one.

    1. Re:Metric time? by b-baggins · · Score: 1

      The selection of 60 for seconds in a minute, minutes in an hour was not arbitrary. The number 60 is evenly divisible by more numbers than any other number between one and one hundred. It's the extreme opposite of a prime number, if you will.

      The same reasoning went behind selecting 360 for the number of degrees in a circle.

      --
      You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
    2. Re:Metric time? by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      No, 72 is just as divisible, (6 pairs of numbers, like 60).

      The difference is 60 fits in better w/ a 10s based / decimal system.

      72 has the advantage of being more readily sub-divided into integer units, that's why it's the basis for the point sytem (72.27 per inch for printer's points, 72 per inch in the PostScript system inagurated by John Warnock to make calculations easier in PostScript interpreters).

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
  36. reminds me of the siderial clock by ChristTrekker · · Score: 1

    This reminds me of an old issue of Astronomy magazine that contained instructions how to convert a normal (solar) digital clock into one that displayed siderial (star) time. It made use of the ability to switch between 50Hz and 60Hz AC operation.

  37. They should have used metric divisions of "sols" by FreeUser · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I agree.

    Frankly, given that we do all of our other work in base 10, I'm surprised scientists haven't used this as an opportunity to introduce a base-10 time system for mars (and the other planets as well).

    1000 "metric seconds" (microsols) = 1 "metric minute" (millisol)

    100 millisols = 1 "metric hour" (decisol)

    10 decisols = 1 sol.

    Convert between Martian time, Jupiter Time, Calliston Time, etc. via a simple coefficient (perhaps defined such that 1.0 yields earth standard time in base-10). Indeed, such a system could even be backported to the earth, should we ever have the desire. Given that the rest of our units of measure are in base 10, this makes perfect sense.

    Of course, calendars do not lend themselves to base 10, but neither do they lend themselves to base 12 or base 60. In any event, that is no reason that basic temporal units, such as are used in physics (meters/second^2, etc) shouldn't be in the same base as the rest of our scientific units.

    In addition to the easier kitchen-math of using base 10 over base 60, this approach would have had the added advantage of not being so easilly confusing: no one is going to confuse a second with a microsol, be it a microsol on Mars, on Jupiter, on Io, or even on Earth, while a 'martian second' vs. a 'terran second' is bound to sow all kinds of confusion over the next few generations.

    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
  38. reminds me of Mitchell Feigenbaum by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I remember in james gleick's excellent book "chaos" there's a story about mitchell feigenbaum doing a similar thing as an experiment. he tried adjusting his routine to a 26 hour cycle so his day moved in and out of phase with that of his co-workers at los alamos. if I remember correctly he gave it up becuase he found it too depressing having to get out of bed around sunset from time to time.

  39. Lucky Marsians... by BTWR · · Score: 1

    Lucky Marsians... that mean they get an extra 39 minutes per television season of "24!"

  40. Mercury... by virve · · Score: 1

    I hope that nobody will try to implement this on a mission to Mercury. The term 'a 90-day jetlag' might be a tad more appropriate in the Mercurian case than in the Martian case...

    --
    virve

  41. Constant jet lag would be good how? by ianscot · · Score: 1
    Okay, this is kind of a neat idea, but doesn't it seem like jerking the mission people's sleep cycles around all the time might be kind of a bad thing?

    Do you perform your best when you're exhausted, or even when you're just out of your routine? I know I flub routine stuff then -- or I spend energy remembering where I put my keys, so that the more challenging, more abstract stuff on my list gets less attention.

    Maybe NASA needs to ask factories that have changing shift structures how they get things done, you know?

    --
    "Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
    1. Re:Constant jet lag would be good how? by Jesrad · · Score: 1

      I have a circadian cycle of 25 hours, which means I go to sleep one hour later every day and wake up one hour later. I have to "reset" every three or four days or I run into trouble with the rest of the world. It is tiring and I lose concentration all the time.

      On inactive periods (typically holidays) I inevitably end up sleeping during the morning and cooking my dinner around 2-3 AM. When I'm completely "shifted half-way" it's quite annoying. Colleagues go to lunch when I go to bed. Where I live, there are no shops and supermarkets open from 8 PM to 9 AM. It's also quite hard to keep my birds on a 24 hours cycle. Believe me I'd rather live on Mars if it was possible.

      --
      Maybe we deserve this world ?
  42. Mars Time by absolut_kurant · · Score: 1

    I like the solution to the time problem proposed in the Mars trilogy:
    unchanged minutes and hours, and 39.5 minuts dedicated to partying every day ;)

    --
    Yes.
  43. And back at NASA, Earth time by Ilan+Volow · · Score: 1

    Perplexed scientists try to explain why every 33 days the rover Spirit goes on the fritz and craves chocolate.

    --
    Ergonomica Auctorita Illico!
  44. seashore living has daily tidal time delay by peter303 · · Score: 1

    The moon rises about 50 minutes later each day, and the tides occur later too. A few jobs that depend on the tides- fishing, seashore activities, walking across Venice without getting wet, etc.- will notice this change. Dont have to changew your sleep patterns like on Mars.

  45. Metric Time by LPetrazickis · · Score: 1

    As some of the posters above have noted, the human body is not a happy camper when it comes to a 24-hour day.

    In my humble opinion, that means we have a perfectly valid excuse to switching to metric time and measuring everything in seconds.;)

    That is because the very intuitive duration of 100 kiloseconds is equal to slightly over 27 hours. That would give us an extra three hours of sleep or whatever else we would want in a day.:)

    Metric time now!:P

    --
    Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
  46. mixed solar and lunar cycles by peter303 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The moon and its tides repeat on a 24 hour 48 minute periodicty. That could explain the 25 hour period in absence of light.
    Its biologically useful to have multiple clocks. This spreads out activity cycles, so that short period disaster, e.g. predator, wont wipe out everyone.

    1. Re:mixed solar and lunar cycles by Carnildo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The moon and its tides repeat on a 24 hour 48 minute periodicty. That could explain the 25 hour period in absence of light.
      Its biologically useful to have multiple clocks. This spreads out activity cycles, so that short period disaster, e.g. predator, wont wipe out everyone.


      In the presence of a strong light/dark cycle (eg. living outdoors in the tropics), different age groups have different activity cycles. Teenagers and young adults tend to stay awake well after dark, waking up well after sunrise, middle-aged people tend to go to sleep around sundown and have a period of wakefulness in the middle of the night, followed by sleeping until sunup, and older people go to sleep early, and wake up early, often before sunrise. The net result is that there's almost always someone awake to keep an eye out for hazards.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
  47. Tried that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
    A.k.a "drop dead cycle"

    During my thesis write-up I was basically working as much as I could before dropping dead. My day cycle went from 24 to 30 hours with a 20 hour working period followed by 10 hours sleep. I reckon I wasn't meant to live on this planet ;-)

    Of course, there are some drawbacks... quite often I'd be eating pizza and watching the tellytubbies or some other crap on TV before going to bed at some crazy hour like 10AM, but sometimes I would show-up at the uni during "normal hours" even enjoying a pint or 2 with my mates after work. That day, I would just call "friday". Problem is, when your friday falls on a sunday, there aren't many mates to enjoy a pint after work... I guess there were "good" and "bad" fridays :-)

    Did that for about 6 months until the viva. Took ages to go back into a 24 hour cycle and still now (2 years after) I have to be careful not to push it too much during weekends otherwise my sleep is basically screwed for the entire following week.

  48. Tricky way to not pay overtime? by nricciar · · Score: 1

    Sounds like NASA is up to no good and trying to force these people to work an extra 30+ minutes each day. i mean think about it. over the course of a year they will save millions :)

  49. A few minutes extra isn't a big deal by dcw3 · · Score: 1

    I spent much of my 20's & 30's (I'm an old fart now) working on 2 week shift rotations, through weekends and holidays. As if that weren't bad enough, we were expected to do software design, code & test on that kind of schedule. Humans can adapt to just about any straight shift, but if you want to see a bunch of zombies, put 'em on a rotation.

    --
    Just another day in Paradise
  50. Metric Time is the Answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We need to switch to the metric time standard - centons microns....

  51. Radio astronomers have done this for years by Urban+Garlic · · Score: 3, Interesting

    People talk about this as though it were a new requirement, but some astronomers have done this before. I was involved in a project which used the old 300 foot telescope at Green Bank, WVA, which was only moveable in "longitude" -- for "latitude", we had to wait for our target to pass overhead. This meant we worked on sidereal time, but the cafeteria stayed on mean solar time. It was only a few minutes a day difference, but it was still pretty disruptive.

    --
    2*3*3*3*3*11*251
    1. Re:Radio astronomers have done this for years by Urban+Garlic · · Score: 1

      Reply to self, naturally I got "longitude" and "latitude" backwards. Shoulda stuck with "declination" (moveable) and "right ascension" (have to wait...)

      --
      2*3*3*3*3*11*251
  52. Kim Stanley Robinson had a cool idea by WhiteDragon · · Score: 3, Informative

    Kim Stanley Robinson, in his books Red Mars, Green Mars, and Blue Mars, had a really interesting system. Instead of keeping a 24 hour day and gradually getting out of sync w/ daylight, they add a 39 minute long "second" at midnight.

    --
    Did you mount a military-grade, variable-focus MASER on an unlicensed artificial intelligence?
  53. For further discussion... by IdJit · · Score: 1

    ...read "Man in His Time" by Brian Aldiss.

  54. I don't understand why.. by NickRuisi · · Score: 1

    Other than to perform a semi-interesting experiment for seeing how human beings on Mars would adjust to a slightly longer day, I do not understand the purpose for this. What do the operations of an orbiter and a rover have to do with this?

    It's not like a shift change during an operation will mess things up. I mean the round-trip light time has got to be about an hour or so, right?

    1. Re:I don't understand why.. by Jesrad · · Score: 1

      I think the operations are tests to collect hard data about concentration and ability to perform. Instead of theorizing about how the longer day could affect the astronauts and possibly jeopardize basic Mars mission's operations, nothing beats a good old practical test.

      Besides, some of us were meant to live on Mars ;)

      --
      Maybe we deserve this world ?
  55. For accuracy's sake, the control room... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    ...will also be bombarded with radiation and have most of the oxygen removed.

  56. The time *where* on Mars? Time zones? by patniemeyer · · Score: 1

    What meaning does it have to say "the time on Mars"? What is the "time on earth"? It depends where you are... Have they defined time zones for the landers?

    Pat

  57. human internal clock-day is 25 hours by shaunyb · · Score: 2, Interesting

    in his book Emergence: The Connected Lives of Ants, Brains, Cities, and Software, Steven Johnson says that, for some reason, human's internal clock is based on a day 25 hours long. this clock is reset every morning when you wake up. this explains why i tend to get tired an hour later each day, until i force myself to correct it.

    this would probably mean living on Mars would feel more natural than on Earth.

    1. Re:human internal clock-day is 25 hours by multi+io · · Score: 1
      in his book Emergence: The Connected Lives of Ants, Brains, Cities, and Software, Steven Johnson says that, for some reason, human's internal clock is based on a day 25 hours long.

      Strange, considering that days were shorter in the past, not longer...

    2. Re:human internal clock-day is 25 hours by shaunyb · · Score: 1

      there are some articles about it here and here. and there's plenty more if you searchfor it.

      the abcnews article says that the internal clock is reset by visual light cues from the sun, and that blind people are more susceptible to falling into a 25-hour rhythm.

  58. That's just like leap years by adept256 · · Score: 1

    We have to have a whole extra day every four years because a year is more than 365 days long. If we added a few minutes to every day to force a year to fit into 365 days, things would get confusing really fast. And you'd end up having sunrise at midday. It's a real shame that time isn't neatly packaged up in whole numbers for our small monkey-brains to digest easier. According to Einstein, time can move at different speeds in different parts of the universe, also depending on how fast you're moving relative to what you're using to measure time. And you're getting tripped up by this? This is KINDERGARTEN compared to the real problems in measuring time in this universe.

    --

    I ran a benchmark on my quantum computer, now I can't find it anywhere!
  59. Re:They should have used metric divisions of "sols by zCyl · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Of course, calendars do not lend themselves to base 10, but neither do they lend themselves to base 12 or base 60. In any event, that is no reason that basic temporal units, such as are used in physics (meters/second^2, etc) shouldn't be in the same base as the rest of our scientific units.

    There's plenty of reason. Scientists prefer their choice of units to most naturally reflect the environment in which they're working. Kelvin is a more natural temperature scale for fundamental work, but Celsius, with 0 as freezing and 100 as boiling, is more natural in situations where water is important (like cooking and going outside). Particle physicists have one unit, the eV, which measures time, length, mass, etc. This wouldn't be particularly useful for measuring travel distance.

    "86.4 ks from now" is not a useful way of refering to the same time tomorrow. This problem becomes much worse when you need to refer to several days away, since 0.7776 Ms is a horrible way to refer to 9 days. You might make the argument that the "day" is artificially chosen and not useful for measurement, but you would be sadly mistaken. For quite a while, at least, human life on this planet will revolve around a daily cycle. The sun still somewhat regulates our sleeping, and thus our work schedules.

    If you try to remedy the problem by simply choosing the day as a fundamental unit and discarding the second, then you still run into the exact same problem we're discussing when you go to another planet. And even without interplanetary travel, you still have a problem when it comes to discussing years. Seasonal change affects our lives a great deal, so there is still value in maintaining a unit of time for a year.

  60. Good idea off-planet, bad idea at home by freeweed · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ugh. Any other Slashdotters want to contribute/correct me, please do :)

    This has been proposed many, many times for use here on Earth. The metric-heads went gangbusters over it when Canada converted to metric back in the 70s, and it never took off, for obvious reasons:

    Of course, calendars do not lend themselves to base 10, but neither do they lend themselves to base 12 or base 60

    This here is the key. Our calender is (more or less) based on a logical observation of regular cyclical events in the sky. Our 12 months come from the cycle of the moon, of which we go through approximately 12 per year. The word "month" was originally "moonth", if you're curious. The problem, of course, is that nature didn't provide us with a nice 12 months of 30 days per month, so we have this hodepodge of units. We also don't have an exactly 365-day (which is base what, anyway?) year, but we manage, because measuring days is just about the most natural thing we can do.

    As for minutes/seconds, this goes back to circular clock faces, and possibly sundials. I forget the exact mathematical reasoning behind it, but a circle just doesn't divide into base-100 nicely. Unless my professors just made this one up, or I'm remembering wrong, it's been a long time!

    In short, the way we measure time is partly biological, and partly historical. I've managed to find pretty compelling reasons for most of it over the years, but yeah, like any measurement system, it's mostly arbitrary.

    --
    Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
    1. Re:Good idea off-planet, bad idea at home by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > but a circle just doesn't divide into base-100 nicely.

      A circle doesn't really divide into *anything* nicely, since all divisions will involve pi in some fashion or another. Set your base to accomodate pi? That's not a whole lot clearer. It's just convention.

    2. Re:Good idea off-planet, bad idea at home by dillon_rinker · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, we go through 13 lunar cycles in a year. The calendar year is more easily measured on the basis of solar events - the equinox and the solstice. The year is thus naturally divided into four seasons. Each of these seasons then contains a little more than three lunar cycles. So the year isn't based on 12 lunar cycles but four seasons of about three cycles each.

      Minutes and seconds go back to the Babylonians and their base-60 (sexagesimal) numbering system. We don't really know why they used a base 60 system, but we use minutes, seconds, and hours for entirely historical reasons.

  61. Submariners have been doing it by MikeMo · · Score: 2, Informative

    for years and years. The folks that man our nuclear subs live on an 18-hour cycle. For example, they get up a 7AM, stand watch from 8AM until 2PM, eat, shower (sometimes!), conduct maintenance, get some sleep, and then get up at 1AM. Then they stand watch from 2AM until 8AM, and so on. They do this for 2-3 months at a time.

    Let me tell you, you get really, really tired at the end of this!

  62. the human body by LordMyren · · Score: 1

    works on a 25h biological clock anyways.

  63. Blame the Aliens by Vagary · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There are only two possible explanations for this phenomenon:

    1. Humans evolved on another planet.
    2. The Earth had a different orbit for a significant period of our recent evolution.

    I'd say either one strongly implies that aliens have been seriously messing with us before the advent of civilization. There are certainly many mythological cosmologies that feature humans arriving from somewhere else -- are there any that could be taken to imply a change in the Earth's orbit?

    1. Re:Blame the Aliens by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      3. Our brains don't make very precise clocks.

  64. Radians! by Vagary · · Score: 1

    Set your base to accomodate pi?

    They're called radians. They're the metric equivalent of degrees. They make geometry easy. Therefore our geometric overlords discourage their use.

    They could be used for time, the base unit ("one-pi radian") would be half a revolution, or two Quarters. Of course all systems of time based on natural phenomena will have a problem with either years or days because they just don't add up. Therefore we need to change the Earth's orbit.

    1. Re:Radians! by Jon+Chatow · · Score: 1
      [...] radians [...] [a]re the metric equivalent of degrees

      Um, I'm pretty sure that that's grads, actually :-)

      --
      James F.
  65. Not really a coincidence by Grotus · · Score: 1
    Yup, this is one of my two faves. The other one is the lunar orbit coinciding perfectly with the lunar rotation, so that the same side of the moon always faces Earth.

    That second favorite of yours is no coincidence. It's just the inevitable result of two bodies orbiting each other.

    You should read up on tidal locking, here, I'll get you started.

    Quick link to 1st google result
    --
    "From my cold, dead hands you damn, dirty apes!" - CH
    1. Re:Not really a coincidence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> It's just the *inevitable* result of two bodies orbiting each other.

      Oh, that explains why one side of the earth always faces the sun.

  66. Seconds, Not Sols by Vagary · · Score: 1

    Why use "sols" which are, of course, highly variable, when we already have the metric unit "second"? Yes, seconds are rather arbitrary, but at least they're rigorously defined (by the decay of Cesium-133).

    <aside>
    I'd like to take this opportunity to propose changing the specification of a "second": one of the design goals (possibly back-specified) of the metric system is the ease of calculating the base units at home. So, in keeping with the SI obsession with water, I propose that the base unit of time be the length of time it takes for 1 litre of water to reach 100 Centigrade with the application of 1 newton of energy, or something like that...
    </aside>

    The problem with every system of proposed time is that it will either be inconvenient for days or years (as the Julian calendar is now), if nothing else. So I think our best bet is to change the Earth's orbit so revolutions are a round number. Actually, if the orbit was held at a fixed duration, then "sol" would be just fine as a unit.

    1. Re:Seconds, Not Sols by Rubyflame · · Score: 1

      So, in keeping with the SI obsession with water, I propose that the base unit of time be the length of time it takes for 1 litre of water to reach 100 Centigrade with the application of 1 newton of energy, or something like that...

      You did not specify what temperature the water starts at. Also, you should perhaps learn the difference between the concepts of force, energy, and power. The SI unit of energy is the joule (newtons measure force), but what you're looking for is power (watts = joules/second), not energy.

      You see the problem here? Power is defined as a function of energy (which is itself dependent on time) and time. You can't measure out one watt power unless you already know how long a second is, and now with your proposal, you can't measure out one second unless you already know what one watt is.

      Anyhow, the oscillation of cesius seems to work fine. It's not really very common to get stuck on a desert island with no access to any measuring implements and have to figure out how long a second is.

      --

      All it takes is nukes and nerves.
  67. Write Once, Run Anywhere... literally? by hughbiquitous · · Score: 1

    Of course it's in Java; it avoids that pesky platform-dependent code problem... just switch to the Martian JVM!

    I mean, who wants to work with

    #ifdef EARTH
    #define ONE_DAY 24f
    #endif
    #ifdef MARS
    #define ONE_DAY 24.66f
    #endif

    C'mon!

  68. So? by arekusu · · Score: 1

    I've been living on slightly-longer than 24hr day for two years now.

    It's just what my body is used to.

  69. What! by Jonathan+Platt · · Score: 1

    39.5 minutes... thats nothing. At times a will slip into 26 hour days for no reason what so ever. Only after a few days do I come out of my hole and realise I've lost one.

    --


    VENI, VIDI, VICI, DIXI
  70. RTFA? by CXI · · Score: 4, Informative

    A) Complaints about redefining the second:
    Days, seconds minutes, etc are all based on SOLAR cycles. We aren't redefining them, Mars' rotation is! We use UTC as that standard time unit and UTC is well defined, but it isn't linked to solar cycles on Mars so it's useless to keep track of Martian days with.

    B) Complaints about why:
    Read the article. The rover can only transmit at a time of day when the sun is up and Earth is in the sky. That is the same time of day on Mars every Martian day, but on Earth, due to the differences in rotation, shifts 39.5 minutes later each Earth day (no jokes please, you know what I mean). All NASA is saying is that mission controllers will need to do their jobs 39.5 minutes later each day because that's when the probe with be transmitting. It's not that hard to figure out! Yeesh.

  71. You know what the Qeng Ho say .... by kalidasa · · Score: 1

    You've been there too long when you start using the local calendar.

  72. BZZZT! Try Again by Vagary · · Score: 1

    You're wrong.

    Just because grads happen to give some significance to powers of ten doesn't automatically make them metric. They're far too arbitrary to enter the league of extraordinary units that is the SI.

    1. Re:BZZZT! Try Again by Jon+Chatow · · Score: 1

      SI != metric

      --
      James F.
  73. Science: Living on Mars Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To accommodate the requirements of
    interplanetary communication, during the mission the Spirit science and engineering teams will have to
    live on Mars time, in synch with the red planet's cycle of light and dark.

    duh, we obviously need a fleet of deep space tdrs satellites.

  74. I have weird patterns too by wackybrit · · Score: 1

    Yeah, I totally sympathise with what you say. I also have a weird sleep system, because I work for myself too.

    The only problem is that my pattern is nonexistant. I often sleep for 12 hours (20 being my record), and sometimes for just 4. I usually vary between 6 and 13. My waking time is also variable. Yesterday I was up for just 12 hours. Two days ago I was up for just 8. Four days ago I was up for 32.

    I get the feeling this could cause me serious problems later.. but I just go to sleep when I feel tired, and wake up when I feel refreshed. And, well, this is the schedule God makes me run to!

  75. Re:DO YOU HAVE STAIRS IN YOUR HOUSE? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Offtopic? Man.

  76. People with no circadian rhythms by wackybrit · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think some people may have no circadian cycles. I sleep a random number of hours, and am awake for a random number of hours each day.

    This week's rough 'awake' hours have been like.. 32, 9, 29, 11, 17, 12.. and 'sleep' hours have been like.. 7, 4, 16, 11, 12, 6, 9.

    I live quite easily in this situation (since I work for myself). Daylight appears to have no effect, unless I woke up at, say, 9pm.. in which case I usually have a wave of tiredness hit me when daylight comes.

    Does this mean I have no rhythm, or a heavily distorted one?

    1. Re:People with no circadian rhythms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you use caffeine, alcohol or anything else that might affect the cycle?

      To what extent do you get up and go to sleep when you feel like it, and to what extent do you try hard to stay awake?

      Personal habits or intentional effort can easily overcome the natural sleep cycle, as long as you get more-or-less enough sleep overall. It isn't very healthy, though.

    2. Re:People with no circadian rhythms by LakeSolon · · Score: 1

      I have a similarly patternless sleep cycle. And also notice that dawn creates a 'wave' of tiredness if I haven't just recently awoken. I'm curious if there's anything to explain that.

      It seems so long as my ratio of sleep to 'awakeness' over a given 5 days is somewhat normal, I'm ok. But the individual times of being asleep tend to be anywhere from 4 to 15 hours, and being awake are 6 to 30. Though beyond 30 I tend to feel the affects of being awake a long time, no matter how much sleep I've been getting.

      I'm not sure if this is a natural thing for me, or has developed through conditioning over the past 10 years or so (I'm now 21). Certainly no longer being restricted to making it to middle/high school every day has allowed me to 'drift' more than before (though the ability to nap sitting upright in a schooldesk helped ;), so it's hard to know if I always would have had such patternless sleep cycle.

      ~Lake

    3. Re:People with no circadian rhythms by wackybrit · · Score: 1

      I drink caffeine, but not much, and I've never found caffeine to have an effect on my mental state. I've drunk a couple of Red Bulls before and gone to sleep an hour later.

      Sometimes I force myself to stay awake in those situations where I suddenly feel tired just 9-12 hours after waking up. In these cases I push through an hour of tiredness, then feel excellent and alert. I think this might actually be the circadian rhythm at work?

      On the whole, however, I just get up and sleep 'whenever I feel like I should'. This is why I've slept 20 hours in one go before (no waking up half way through) and not been alarmed. I figure my body knows how to keep itself in check, so I let it.

  77. They'll get used to it... by centauri · · Score: 1

    ... or they'll have a psychotic episode.

    --
    Don't blame me, I voted for Durga.
  78. What about Venus time by YoungBonzi · · Score: 1

    Can someone write an applet to help with out with my Venusian???

  79. Spelling out facts for the /. crowd by euxneks · · Score: 1

    This means that, here on Earth, they'll sometimes be working during daylight hours, and at other times they'll be working through the night

    Well, duh ... I think anyone with half a brain cell could've figured that out.

    --
    in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
  80. feynman by Tilps · · Score: 1

    what ... i'm amazed no one mentioned him in this topic yet.

    oh and personally, i found the 36 hour day very effective (At achieving nothing)

    --
    Sigs are for wimps. I am proud to be one.
  81. Why base 10? by bluGill · · Score: 1

    I've I've always wondered about the fascination metric people have with base 10. Sure we have 10 fingers, but for ever other use 10 is a bad number system, it doesn't divide 3 or 4 easially, and you often need to do that in the real world.

    Not that the other system of various bases is better for all purposes, but those units were often designed for the things you do with them. Things that are dividable by 3 are often divided into thirds, and so on.

  82. As handled in KSR's "Red Mars" by RevAaron · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I always thought the way that this extra 40 minutes was handled in Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy (Red Mars, Blue Mars, Green Mars) was great.I can't remember what they call that time period- but they just leave it off the clock. Every night at midnight, the transition from 12:00 AM to 12:01 AM takes 39.5 minutes rather than only 1. That way, you can go to bed later than you should've and still get a decent rest. :)

    For any of you interested in Mars colonization, I highly reccomend the books. I've yet to read the last of the trilogy, but Red Mars was absolutely amazing. The second book was pretty good too, but it's hard to follow up something like the first. KSR portrays a very realistic near-future, and a lot of the technology it'd take in the book's version is already here. I think KSR serves on some various NASA committes regarding the future manned mission to Mars, etc.

    --

    Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
  83. It's an experiment! by fm6 · · Score: 1
    The article doesn't seem to say that they're going to use Mars time for anything but scheduling work shifts. I suspect they'll still do all their record keeping with old-fashioned UTC. The weird clock and time units sound like typical NASA PR, not something anybody would actually use.

    I have to comment on another approach to Mars time. In Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars novels, which are otherwise well thought out, he uses this silly convention called a "Time Slip". At midnight, all clocks simply stop for 39 minutes and 30 seconds. Imagine the record keeping nightmares that would cause! Can't imagine was Robinson was thinking of, except maybe an infatuation with a certain Philip Dick novel. I never read it, but I assume it's as short on logic as most of Dick's work.

  84. easy solution by penguin7of9 · · Score: 1

    Put mission control on a boat and have it travel about one time zone per day.

    1. Re:easy solution by l0tu53at3r · · Score: 0

      Just so long they have access to their Everquest servers, I'm sure they won't complain.

      --
      ---Excuse the bad English, I'm American---
  85. Tracking time is difficult by rk · · Score: 1

    for interplanetary missions. Since planets are in different reference frames and the cruise phase of an interplanetary mission takes a long time, there are relativistic effects in time keeping, though smaller than the differences in planetary rotation, are much more difficult to compute than the simple difference between days and sols.

    The standard time used is normally the Barycentric Dynamical Time (or TDB), which is the time measured by a theoretical aomic clock placed at the barycenter of the solar system. Other time systems are used when needed. TDB is within 2 milliseconds of Terrestrial Dynamical Time (TDT, which is a similar time except computed for the Earth/Moon barycenter), which in turn differs from the more familiar UTC only in that TDT does not have leap seconds to account for variations in the angular velocity of Earth.

    There is a standard library used in NASA missions called SPICE that handles these conversions between ephemeris times for planetary systems, spacecraft and TDB. It does a whole lot more (positions, speed and orientation of planetary objects and spacecraft, light travel time computations, etc.). The group that publishes this library is also responsible for publishing data files (called kernels, no relation to Unix) to facilitate these operations.

    I wouldn't worry too much about time keeping differences. The only reason MER mission ops is concerned with this is because the rovers only operate in the Martian daytime. Time for missions is otherwise tracked using SCLK (spacecraft clock), SCET (space craft ephemeris time), or in TDB.

  86. Palm Port of Mars24 by HoneyBeeSpace · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Here is a GPL PalmPilot port I wrote of Mars24 (using the actual time code, just a different UI):

    MarsClock.

  87. Re:They should have used metric divisions of "sols by Mr+Europe · · Score: 1

    1000 "metric seconds" (microsols) = 1 "metric minute" (millisol)
    100 millisols = 1 "metric hour" (decisol)

    The use of the term "metric is not good even the divider is 10/100/1000.
    To many the word "metric" translates as "normal" and "standardized". I propose that we will use the name "imperial hour" and "imperial minute" for that martian time.

  88. Why to change seconds ? by Mr+Europe · · Score: 1

    It seems quite weird to me to stretch a second to make a day 24 hours. This will cause strange things, such as speed of light is a different value on Mars than on Earth though the speed is actually is equal of course.

    At least it should NOT be called second/minute/hour etc !

    The least inconvenient would to use the Greenwich time in all the Mars. This would require occasionally checking "at what time is the noon today?" but still that is the way of least trouble.

  89. Because that is how we humans count by FreeUser · · Score: 1

    I've I've always wondered about the fascination metric people have with base 10. Sure we have 10 fingers, but for ever other use 10 is a bad number system, it doesn't divide 3 or 4 easially, and you often need to do that in the real world.

    Because our numerical system and arithmatic is base 10, so using base ten units means conversion between units is simply a matter of moving the decimal point.

    This is extremely useful, and works for every unit of measure EXCEPT time, which we have foolishly left in its archaic, hybrid form (base 12 hours, base 60 divisions thereof). Units of time, not to be confused with the calendar. The calendar will likely never be coherent, as planets, moons, and other celestial bodies rarely if ever choose orbits that are convinient to any human numbering system. But units of time that are typically used for calculating speed, acceleration, or duration of phenomena, are certainly amenable to a sensible approach, and one very elegant approach that scales to human sensibilities and biological cycles, and yet can be scaled to most measures of interest, is the day (or sol, if it is extraterrestrial).

    When doing numerical calculations with standard units, one can move the decimal around (in ones head, if one is so inclined) to convert to or from any standard metric unit. This isn't true when switching from kph to kps, where instead of a sensible base 10 approach LIKE EVERY OTHER UNIT bar none, we have to use a base 60 multiplier, resulting in a multiplication by 3600.

    Base 10 is more convinient, and dividing by 3 or 4 is no more difficult than for anything else in our decimal system.

    Now, if you'd like to change the entire numerical system from base ten to base 12 or base 60, fine (I even postulate such a move in one of my novels), but as long as our numerical and arithmatic system is base 10, so too should be our units, including our basic units of time. This archaic, hybrid crap needs to go, and mapping that crap to another planet when there are far more elegant approaches (such as the one I outlined, not to mention numerous others) goes beyond absurd.

    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
    1. Re:Because that is how we humans count by bluGill · · Score: 1

      Changing the base we work in isn't a completely bad idea... As likely to happen as the US switching to metric though.

      In theory you can switch units in your head in metric. Everyone takes the class in school, and most everyone passes the test proving they can. In real life everyone makes mistakes, so it is best to never switch units. Boeing makes their 747 with everthing measured in mm (for the metric versions) just to prevent mistakes.

  90. Lucky them by ralphclark · · Score: 1

    This should be a breeze. I remember reading about a series of experiments where the subjects were denied any clues as to what the time was and they were found (in general) to fall fairly quickly into a 25-hour diurnal cycle. For some reason it appears our bodies are already attuned to a longer day than the Earth naturally provides.

    Or maybe it's just that people love getting an extra hour in bed ;o)