Review of the Mirra Home Backup System

Darth Fredd writes "Having trouble backing up,or just too lazy to take the time? Behold Mirra, a networked RAID 1 volume, backs up everything automagically over the network. Extreme Tech has a review. Mirra uses the insanely popular (and fun) Mini ITX form factor motherboard. Mirra is targeted at the "normal" home and desktop user." We've mentioned the Mirra before.

Comments

Oh

[Sarojin]

# Important Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic.
# Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads.
# Read other people's messages befor

FP

[Anonymous Coward]

laa deee dooo daa! it's the first post!!!

fps

[Anonymous Coward]

fp

Covered before

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, this has been covered before, as it says. This 'article' reads like an advertisement. Are the editors taking money for this crap?

Re:Covered before

[Muerto]

yeah.. this is an advertisement. very lame.

Re:Covered before

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it is. Varry l4m3.

Btw. plz vizit0xr teh site of me its caleed fags-cumunitee.com

nice but

[mpost4]

your average joe end user probably not pay $400 for a back up system. And that is even if they average joe end user has even thought about backups.

Re:nice but

[Anonymous Coward]

... may be useful for those that handle quite a bit of corporate work on home machines. Get your company to buy you one, for their own peace of mind if nothing else.. ;-)

Re:nice but

[JWW]

Its a fairly cheap mini-itx, though (if its based on the newer boards). I'd be tempted to buy one and turn it into a Myth frontend.

Re:nice but

[tungwaiyip]

It is calling itself personal server. Does it do anything besides backup?

If the Linux on the server is open to user and with respectable processing power I would be insterest to put my web & email server on it. I'm happy to trade my big noisy box with something more energy efficient.

Something like Intel's Personal Server
http://www.intel.com/labs/features/rs08031 .htm would be super cool.

YOU FAIL IT

[users.pl]

YOU FAIL IT
So have 10000 digits of Pi.

3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993 75 1058209749445923078164062862
08998628034825342117 067982148086513282306647093844 6095505822317253594081284811
17450284102701938521 105559644622948954930381964428 8109756659334461284756482337
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70614680674919278191 197939952061419663428754440643 7451237181921799983910159195
61814675142691239748 940907186494231961567945208095 1465502252316038819301420937
62137855956638937787 0830390697920773467221825625

Re:YOU FAIL IT

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy crap dude, that display of page lengthening spam was totally sweet. That's what I call real ultimate power.

Dean Supports Slavery Reperations

[Anonymous Coward]

Pay up Cracker!...Dr Howard Dean

Re:Dean Supports Slavery Reperations

[larry bagina]

i support slavery reparations.

All living slaves should file a lawsuit against their former slave masters.

Oh, there aren't any living slaves? Well, then SHUT THE FUCK UP AND GO BACK TO PICKING COTTON!

Good but $400?

[WildBeast]

It's a little expensive for $400, not to mention that it's got only a 120GB HardDisk. How about those who have more data to backup?

Re:Good but $400?

[AKnightCowboy]

It's a little expensive for $400, not to mention that it's got only a 120GB HardDisk.

Well, technically if it's RAID-1 it'd have two 120GB hard disks. I wish I could find out more but the site seems slashdotted. Does anyone have a mirror of Mirra (no pun intended)?

Re:Good but $400?

[gotpaint32]

For $400 bucks Maxtor offers a 300gb portable backup hard drive, and $200 for a 120gb version. The idea of a network file server backup is nice but probably missing the mark with its targeted consumers. I would imagine most lay people would rather just plug something into the USB port of their computers rather than messing around with networking and whatnot.

Maxtor One Touch

Re:Good but $400?

[AKnightCowboy]

Woops, forget it. It does have only one 120GB disk. Why the hell do they say it's RAID-1?

Re:Good but $400?

[October_30th]

RAID-1 means mirroring. In this case it just takes place over a network.

Re:Good but $400?

[GreyPoopon]

Woops, forget it. It does have only one 120GB disk. Why the hell do they say it's RAID-1?

Article says single 120GB disk, but maybe that's just because it LOOKS like a single disk from the reviewer's perspective. I only got about half way through the article, so maybe near the end it talkes about what's underneath the hood.

Re:Good but $400?

[acidrain69]

As much as we would miss it, porn is not THAT important.

Yeah, so I have like 300 gigs in the house, probably only 50 of that is important work or personal related stuff. The rest is anime, porn, video and games.

Re:Good but $400?

[Ozric]

yea ... 400 bucks can get you a DLT drive. I would rather use that for backups. They you can keep a copy off site .. In case of a very bad event. A fire safe is not always going to protect you.

Re:Good but $400?

[operagost]

The problem is that you would still need software. Some DLTs come with software, but it's usually some garbage the manufacturer licensed that is hard to use. The big selling point for Mirra is that it automatically backs up your files as they are changed or created, and also keeps older versions. It does this quietly on the fly.

Re:Good but $400?

[tenman]

it's the software that makes this box worth anything. it's web configurable, and a set and forget type device. also, you dont' have to setup a back up schedule, or render your machine useless while the back up happens. This thing monitors all the files on all the hard drives that it's told about, and backs up every file that gets changed as it changes, and saves up to 8 versions of those files to restore from. IMHO, it's really not a bad deal for casual user. I might get one, and set it up for my mom.

Re:Good but $400?

[iocat]

I have the Maxtor 120GB drive. It's fast (USB 2) and works well. It has a button on it that can automatically start a back-up if you're you're too lazy to launch an application in the normal way. It also comes with a surprisingly full featured version of Retrospect 6.0 , which is more than enough for typical back-up tasks.

Re:Good but $400?

[emin]

I agree. For people who want a free, open source solution which can make distributed off-site backups as large as you like with built-in encryption and error correction I recommend the Distributed Internet Backup System (DIBS).

Re:Good but $400?

[NateTech]

one word: tar

Countdown Post!!! Starting at 50!

[Anonymous Coward]

50

Re:Countdown Post!!! Starting at 50!

[Anonymous Coward]

48

Re:Countdown Post!!! Starting at 50!

[Anonymous Coward]

47

Re:Countdown Post!!! Starting at 50!

[Anonymous Coward]

46

Re:Countdown Post!!! Starting at 50!

[Anonymous Coward]

45: ???
44: Profit!!!

Re:Countdown Post!!! Starting at 50!

[Anonymous Coward]

43

Slashdupe Pre-emption?

[Anonymous Coward]

More and more the slashdot "editors" seem to be putting the text "we've mentioned this before". Is this just a way to preempt the usual "DUPE!" replies? Is there nothing else going on in the world that we have to re-read the same stuff over and over? Is slashdot getting money for repeatedly covering (and re-covering) the same products?

Re:Slashdupe Pre-emption?

[Anonymous Coward]

True this. "We've covered/said/mentioned this before" obviously means "It's a slow news day so here's some rehashed crap."

Glad I don't subscribe and have to actually PAY for rehashed crap. Definitely no Pulitzer candidates in this arena :-|

I definitely like the idea of this

[Sarojin]

just as a turnkey network file server, it would be great. Unfortunately for geeks it would still be cheaper to use an old PC running Linux

Re:I definitely like the idea of this

[stuph]

except for the fact that it's NOT a file server, but only a backup system.. you can't easily browse the thing, only using the software can you backup files, etc.. reading the article... a truly lost art

Re:I definitely like the idea of this

[GreyPoopon]

Unfortunately for geeks it would still be cheaper to use an old PC running Linux

I think the value that it brings (for the $400) is the client software that automatically mirrors your changes to the appliance. But somebody could probably duplicate that easily enough and pair it with a Linux box running CVS or something similar to achieve the same results.

BackupPC

[Aliencow]

For people who have a Linux server around the house,
BackupPC is a pretty good solution that can fetch files to backup through Samba and Rsync ! Nice web based interface, too.

Re:BackupPC

[hamsterdude]

I'm thinking of setting up a backup solution for my home network - has anyone used BackupPC? Is it any good? Is it particularly easy to use? Can it do the whole backup a file and only copy it again if it's an updated version etc?

Re:BackupPC

[Aliencow]

My friend uses it a lot on his network, because his girlfriend uses a laptop for school and the HD dying on that thing would basically be the end of the world...or worse. He fetches the stuff from the laptop using the SMB protocol, and it downloads only new files/modified files.

Re:BackupPC

[Espen]

This looks like decent, but I keep seeing the missing link in projects like these is the assumption that you are already running, or have time to install, *nix on the box you want to use for this. If you have a spare box sitting in a corner, it would be much more tempting to use it as an 'appliance' with software like this, if it came bundled with its own mini-distribution: upgrade the harddrive and then just pop in the CD and boot it up like you do with Knoppix or floppy distributions.

Re:BackupPC

[Aliencow]

Building a Knoppix clone with this running would be quite interesting indeed.. Especially if you could replace the web-based interface with a GUI that starts up as soon as you login, then you could select the partition you want to backup to, where you want to save your settings..

Re:BackupPC

[pheared]

And Mirra expects you to have a Windows PC in order to backup anything.

Re:BackupPC

[dstutz]

I run BackupPC on my linux server at home. I installed a separate harddrive and use it exclusively for this program. It's fairly easy to set up, works great, and the pooling+compression is wonderful because it saves so much space. Pooling means it doesn't back up more than 1 copy of the same file. It just links to that file in each backup (whether full or incremental).
# 2 full backups of total size 16.48GB (prior to pooling and compression),
# 6 incr backups of total size 1.29GB (prior to pooling and compression).
As you can see it thinks it has backed up over 17.5GB of data but on the main status page it says:
Pool is 6.98GB comprising 109320 files and 4369 directories (as of 1/2 01:00)
Pretty sweet program.

Re:BackupPC

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially if you could replace the web-based interface with a GUI that starts up as soon as you login, then you could select the partition you want to backup to, where you want to save your settings..

Or automagically start up a web browser pointing to the web interface.

Re:BackupPC

[Penguinshit]

BackupPC is a really nifty PERL utility. I remember using it in its infant form (and even hacked on it a little myself) years ago when I worked with Craig Barrat. Back then we used SuperTCP on Win3.11 systems to back up to an Exabyte single tape drive on an old Sparc-10 running (IIRC)SunOS 4.1.3.

Talk about painful system administration...

I can heartily recommend this utility to anyone; Craig does not write shit-code (neither does Paul.. Hey Tas, if you're reading this). The other two contributors I don't know.

Re:BackupPC

[jhoffoss]

Why even log in? Make X go straight to a config utility with the option to jump to console (Alt-Ctrl-F1) if you're more of a power user.

This kinda has me thinking now. A KNOPPIX clone installed on a hard drive that comes with webmin or some other simple config utility setup to run file services for a non-power user. FTP, HTTP, Samba, BackupPC, MP3, Tivo stuff perhaps...

Anyone seen anything like this? Any thoughts on why it would be a good or bad idea?

Re:BackupPC

[Reziac]

ISTM the "average-joe-user-friendly" method would be a disty that lets Joe User "stick CD in spare PC's drawer, power up, let it boot and do its thing". Said disty would install as much OS as is needed to run as a dedicated backup server, the backup software with front end (for logging in, as you note that should be automagic), and nothing else. Is that kinda what you had in mind, so that any PC with enough disk space could be turned into a backup appliance?

Would certainly simplify the home user backup problem.

No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[moehoward]

So why not just do RAID on a main home computer and run automated backups to it? This thing is worthless for the one thing that people really need.... Offsite backup media.

Your house burns down? You lost everything. You have a flood in your basement and your computer gets wet? You lost everything. Leaky celing onto your Mirra? Lost it all. Mirra HD crash? Lost it all.

Thie advertisement on Slashdot is transparent. I got rid of all the other slashdot advertising by using the block images feature of Firebird. How do I get rid of this one?

This product does not sufficiently solve the problem and should not be promoted on Slashdot.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[TrueBuckeye]

All good points, but I think this product is directed towards a different market...the standard home user who could never set up a RAID array on their own. And yes, it isn't offsite, but still having your data backed up to two redundant drives is far better than just leaving everything on one hard drive. I think it is a good concept, but due to cost I seriously doubt it will be successful. The vast majority of people don't understand the need for backups and most of those that do will use alternative, techier methods (burn DVDs/CDs, data server, offsite, etc).

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[elf-fire]

All true, but I think you are comparing apple's and oranges. Aimed at the 'normal' user it will most likely backup people's letters, documents, bank-slips, holiday pictures and some home-video. Hardly anyone kept off-site backups of those when they were still on paper and magnetic-tape.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[llefler]

This thing is worse than useless. It gives the owner the impression that the data is safe. All you have is two copies of your data, both of which are on cheap IDE drives. This is just an overpriced harddrive that they are calling a backup solution.

If they wanted to make something useful, they could have used a smaller harddrive and included automatic streaming to a DVD burner.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[cjjjer]

This if people actually save their documents, email, pictures, etc., etc. to one location. Most of my friend's computers that I go over to fix save their files all over the place so making backups is more of a chore. MS tries it's best to create a "default" location but it amazes me how many people don't actually use it or how many third party software vendors don't follow MS's lead. Everything I do is saved in My Documents and is backed up locally and then copied to my server where a backup tape runs nightly. Anal? Yes but at least I know I have a backup if needed.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[An Onerous Coward]

Question: How often have you had hard drives fail? Now, how often have you had computers destroyed by fire or flood?

I thought so.

Quit whining. Not every story which features a commercial product constitutes an "advertisement." Do you complain when /. puts up graphics card benchmarks? Or when they cover another point release of Red Hat?

Home backup solutions are interesting. Unless you can show that /. or OSDN was paid to run this story, or that Extremetech was paid to review it, then just shut up and move on to a different story.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[sharpcny]

Yeah, someone please invent this service. I want to send all important digital media (ok, family photos basically) offsite to a secure, guaranteed-to-be-there-forever hosting site that will maintain this data SECURELY and indefinitely. A digital safe deposit box that will be upgraded over time to current media standards. In 50 years, my grandkids can get access using holographic storage or whatever.

It's an untapped market.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[moehoward]

I had one main system destroyed by flood (OK. a couple fans were salvageable, as was the DVD drive because the flood was only 15 inches or so.)

I have had one half of a RAID pair fail.

In the past 15+ years, I have had countless HD failures. What is with your "I thought so" comment? I suspect you are rather young or you spend all your time playing games.

All at home. I do backup and I do keep at least a quarterly backup off site. It is much more time consuming and cumbersome than it needs to be.

Home data is becoming more and more critical. Not only to mention media licenses, but financial and personal data as well. Health records, bills, etc. Historical correspondance with friends/family. Pictures, video. All important and all reasons that people buy computers.

When people have horrible failures, they and their acquaintances shy away from the technology. The technology is good. The industry (us) needs to provide seemless, portable, reliable backup. Mirra fails on all counts. This is obvious from the article. So my question remains. Why feature a failure of a product?

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[H8X55]

i'd wager that failed hard discs are more common than fires, floods and leaks. i've had several ibm deathstars drop on me.

never had a fire or flood in my house, though.

i just hope that the hard disk in this product is better than the one it's supposed to back up.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[kfg]

Paper rarely suffers from sudden catastrophic failure for no apparent reason.

For those conditions where paper is likely to fail your local locksmith has a wall of possible solutions. That wall exists because there is at least a viable market for such solutions.

Your bank has an expanded version of that available from the locksmith, which you may rent, which many people prefer because it keeps their valuable records offsite.

Family lawyers also perform offsite record backup.

While it's true that the majority didn't adequately pay attention to backups in the paper age I wouldn't go so far as to say that hardly anyone did.

In any case, given that this system does not provide for offsite backup its only real function seems to be to protect against HD failure, which you can do by simply mirroring to another drive right in your very own desktop.

The problem the product seems designed to solve is that of the enrichment of the sellers and not any real need of the buyer.

KFG

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[karnal]

"The industry (us) needs to provide seemless, portable, reliable backup."

Actually, I feel quite the opposite. I feel that most common computer users are not aware just how important their data is.

My parents have a pretty old computer, and I try to keep up with updating their hardware (every christmas..) I know for a fact that they don't care about backup solutions (or wouldn't, if it weren't for me covering their butts.) I also know that they probably have more "business critical" information on their machine than I do on any of my network here.

The key is getting a product out to the Lowest Common Denominator, and having them use it, true, but there is something to be said to have the lowest common denominators out there realize just how frail a modern computer can be.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[elf-fire]

Where mirroring does help against HD failure, it does not against worms and virri. IMHO not an insignificant threat to the target market of this product.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[inode_buddha]

Try XDrive. My brother works there, and no you couldn't possibly generate enough data in your lifetime to fill it up.

Pretty easy too; open a browser into your xdrive account and click/drag or use the file selection dialog after you hit the "Upload" button. There's a "high security" (ssl) option and they host it all in datacenters with redundant OC-192's and backup power generators, etc. Take a look at it at least - its a great way to send each other huge files, etc.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

For a network solution with off-site storage and no client software required look at the RocketVault "www.intradyn.com". It is a small office solution and not really a personal solution. It scales to 4TB and has several encryption options too.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[baja]

The mirra is an OK personal local backup solution. A better small business solution is the RocketVault "www.intradyn.com". The RocketVault does offer off-site storage and both local and off-site encryption. It also doesn't require any client software and scales up to 4TB. Network World has tested it and considers it to be in a different class than the Mirra and other all-in-one devices "http://www.nwfusion.com/net.worker/columnists/200 3/1215gaskin.html" I think it is an alternative to tape backup and anything is more reliable than tape.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[Da VinMan]

Quit whining.

No. This is not a real solution to the problem. If they had something like the current machine with hard drive slots where I could take a complete hard drive mirror out of the machine for off-site storage, this would be a real solution. A backup solution without an off-site storage ability is not a real solution. Why backup files for machines A & B, to machine C when they all reside on the same premises? Doesn't even make real sense.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[carlos_benj]

And what if the service provider goes belly-up?

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[An Onerous Coward]

You say you've had "a main system" destroyed by flood. Of course an off-site backup would have saved you, but unless it was a really severe flood, a mirror upstairs would have saved you just as well.

You then go on to say you've had countless hard drive failures. Which is exactly what I was thinking when I said "I thought so." 99% of data loss would be averted by having an on-site backup.

Nor does "having one half of a raid pair fail" mean data loss. If these are the only personal anecdotes you can come up with to back up your position, then you've failed. Even if this product can't do an off-site backup solution, it's still a reasonable solution for a home user, because it protects them from common causes of data loss.

Finally, because you've been gratuitously insulting: I'm a 26 y/o CS major, and I've probably played about ten hours of video games in the last year. Looking at your posting history, this is probably 1/10 the time you've spent whining about how crappy Slashdot is.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[An Onerous Coward]

If loss of your data means your life is ruined, or that your business will go under, or that thousands of hours of effort is wiped away, then I agree: This device is a terrible, terrible backup solution. You do not want to risk your data by having it all at the same location.

But if this is the case, you had better be willing--even eager--to fork over more than a few hundred bucks for your backup solution.

Why does it "not make sense" to have a simple, easy-to-use [assuming the review is accurate] local backup solution for a home user? 90% of home users are still on dial-up, so Internet-based backups are prohibitive. Most home users wouldn't know what to do with a hard drive slot if they included one. A DVD burner would up the price too much, and you'd probably rather have it on your main system anyways.

This device is targeted towards a certain group of people, and it sounds like it does an adequate job in that role. If a user's data is so critical, they need to be aware that they need off-site capabilities. Most home users simply don't.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[rifter]

Try XDrive. My brother works there, and no you couldn't possibly generate enough data in your lifetime to fill it up.

Er, 500MB might have seemed like a lot in 1989, but it is pitiful now. So maybe this is useful for some documents which you don't mind sending unencrypted over the net to be stored with a whole bunch of other people's data on what may be an insecure server, but otherwise, no. It certainly doesn't work as a real backup and disaster recovery solution.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[inode_buddha]

Umm, they'll give you whatever space you want if you get a real account instead of using the demo. For a fee, of course. IIRC, some of their larger customers include Yahoo, AOL, and General Motors. They can handle home users and small businesses too. So if you want more space, just ask. Last I heard, they have about 15 TB free.

Umm, notice the option for a secure connection in the upper left of your screen? That's hardware accelerated SSL. I really doubt they'd leave their array open (I know they don't but I won't say more).

And like I said, its hosted in premium facilities - triple redundancy, backup power, etc.

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[rifter]

Umm, they'll give you whatever space you want if you get a real account instead of using the demo. For a fee, of course. IIRC, some of their larger customers include Yahoo, AOL, and General Motors. They can handle home users and small businesses too. So if you want more space, just ask. Last I heard, they have about 15 TB free.

Umm, the site says that the real account is $10/month and gives 500MB of space. They don't say you can use more. How am I supposed to negotiate a larger account? Ring up their CEO like GM did?

Re:No Offsite Built-in, etc.

[inode_buddha]

Check here.

When you sign up for an account, you choose how much space you want...if you want more after that, you can buy more from inside your account. There's a 15-day free trial.

Bigtower

[elf-fire]

Very clever to aim it at the 'normal' user. No average Slashdotter would settle for less than the biggest big-tower available for such a device. And mini-ATX would not look cool in such an machine ;) On a more serious note. It is good that such a machine is available for the 'normal' user. It is hard enough to teach non tech-savvy friends and family that they really should do backups of important data, and such a device would be a big step forward for many people I know!

Re:Bigtower

[bhtooefr]

Whoa there! Mini-ATX? That's bigger than Micro-ATX! Not to mention, as there are no Mini-ATX cases (as in not ATX), and very few boards, it's kinda pointless. Now, Mini-ITX, that's different.

Re:Bigtower

[llefler]

I don't know about that. It used to be everyone wanted the biggest tower they could get. I did some of that too. We all wanted them so we could have lots of drives. But now everyone I know has moved to dedicated server(s). Small and quiet is the way to go. Nothing like connecting your laptop to the Shuttle in the corner via your wireless network... The only big pieces of hardware are the displays.

The problem here is no experienced computer user would consider this machine a 'backup' device.

windows only?

[Anonymous Coward]

System & Network Requirements

* Windows XP or 2000; Pentium III: 256K RAM; 25MB free hard disk space

useless!

and 256K of ram? thats a fudged figure, XP needs 32MB of ram if you want the startup screen to avoid swap thrash (another 128MB of you don't like the login screen to swap thrash)

weird

[Anonymous Coward]

i had a dream about Mirra Home Backup System last night! There was a hot girl, and her tits kept popping out of her blouse, and she caught me staring. But I didn't care!

missing WebDAV

[stonebeat.org]

Good idea. But it is missing WebDAV.
WebDAV can make it very easy to put and retrieve files from the server, using a web browser (over port 80).

Re:missing WebDAV

[cuban321]

My experience with webDAV is that it's slow, unreliable and prone to losing files. I lost two important spreadsheets before I finally gave up on webdav. They simply disappeared.

Re:missing WebDAV

[Anonymous Coward]

They didn't disappear....I have them right here!!!

Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

People who can't even be bothered to run Windows Update (for free!) aren't forking out $400 for a backup system for their data.

And most people who do care enough about their data to back it up aren't going to use an expensive, single-purpose device to do it, they'll most likely be tech-savvy enough to roll their own server that does everything this thing does and more.

DUPE

[Anonymous Coward]

this is a dupe of a another slashvertisement for the same product

Little word of warning

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

I have that exact case/mobo running OpenBSD 3.4 as my home firewall and it's much louder than you would think. The source of the noise is the power supply. Just as loud if not louder than the Enermax 330w on my Athlon system.

The only difference I can find is that I have a Via 933mhz compared to the 1ghz on the Mirra. I had to strip the mounting bracket off of the 3Com NIC I added and secure it w/ double sided tape since it just wouldn't fit otherwise.

Other than that, it's a pretty good investment for me ocnsidering it was $160 at Fry's sans memory and hard drive. Very reliable, doesn't take up much space. Just noisy. Maybe I could find another quieter power supply?

Re:Little word of warning

[fidget42]

Maybe I could find another quieter power supply?

Or, you could find another case. Perhapse one with an external power (DC) supply? FWIW, I have been trying to build an EPIA based system to use as a set-top box and even those with "extremely quiet" fans in the power supplies are still too noisy.

Re:Little word of warning

[cdc179]

Look at a case that has an external power suply(brick) like a notebook. I just got a casetronics case and it's very quiet. the only noice is 2 small fans.

http://www1.computergate.com/products/item.cfm?pro dcd=HDRCM269BR

Re:Little word of warning

[user32.ExitWindowsEx]

I have a VIA C3 800 MHz in the same chassis running OpenBSD 3.4 too...and it's loud...and the PSU puts out a LOT of heat for something that small.

I just ordered a dual-port Intel copper gigabit NIC from newegg.com - it came with the half-height bracket you need (the damn VIA rhine driver in OpenBSD kept complaining about dropping packets).

Re:Little word of warning

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

Hmm, never noticed dropped packets. Out of my sloth and laziness, let me ask where did you look for this error message?

Re:Little word of warning

[paxmark1]

Is the itx ready for Linux or real life yet. I bought a 733 mhz. It was a total pain to install many kernels several months back, finally Mandrake 9.1 went well. The power regulation on the board went bad on me. I had to wait 12!! weeks in RMA HELL (and then you get a P-4 because ECS has apparently abandoned itx due to numerous returns). Then there is all the poorly supported on board video, sound, etc. Also malloc problems and other little problems when ./ ing source. Yes, you can get the sound and video and USB up and running, get the right libraries, but it was quite a bit of tweaking. So, is the itx form factor ready for prime time yet? I really enjoyed it after I had it up and running, until the fan made a noise and it vanished into RMA hell. That OpenBSD goes on does impress me. I did put FreeBSD 5.0 up for a bit in desperation, and it hiccuped on me big time, but finally Mandrake 9.1 went on. Shalom,

Re:Little word of warning

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

Are you asking if it's ready for Linux or real life yet? I couldn't tellyou since I run OpenBSd w/out X. Pretty cool you got a P4 out of it.

Re:Little word of warning

[Reziac]

The noise is typically not the power supply itself, but the fan. In a standard PSU, the fan is easily replaced (you can find quiet ones from pcpowerandcooling.com among other vendors).

Nifty trick: A standard case fan fits in most PSUs. Rather than trying to solder wires or find a plug that matches the PSU's fan connector, just unplug or snip that (be sure to wrap any naked ends with electrical tape), then run the new fan's wires out thru the same hole as all the other power leads, and plug it into any conveniently vacant lead (adding Y-leads as needed).

Be sure not to touch the capacitors while you're in there, or you'll get a rude suprise.

Re:Little word of warning

[paxmark1]

Both. VIA's support for linux compatibility for sound, video, etc has been poor and slow on the itx boards. Also if there are so many rma returns that new egg and numerous other consumer outlets stop selling itx boards and say that it is doubtful if they will again begs the question if the itx initial kinks have been worked out.

Re:Little word of warning

[user32.ExitWindowsEx]

/var/log/messages and the console.

I can get 1 MBps downloads on my current link...and anything significantly slower doesn't make it happen, so maybe that's why.

Backups today

[NineNine]

From the article:
Wouldn't it be great if there was a way to automatically back up your valuable data, share files, and roll back to older versions? Now there is. It's called "Mirra."


I thought it was called a "CD burner". Soon to be called a "DVD burner". Simple, permanent, easy to share, easy to have multiple versions, etc. It's not automatic, but personally, I don't want "automatic" backups overwriting other backups I have on the same hard drive. Besides, CD's and DVDs are much longer lasting than hard drives.

Re:Backups today

[Seth Finklestein]

I have 80 GB of data -- that's right, 80 *giga*bytes of important documents that I as an important researcher can't afford to lose. On DVD-R (or +R, or *R, or whatever the hell it is today) I would need 18 discs to back it all up. Now maybe you have the free time to sit at a computer, changing discs all night, but I have better things to do.

That's why I recommend the Mirra to all my clients.

Sincerely,
Seth Finklestein
Proud Mirra Owner since 2003

Re:Backups today

[NineNine]

So then the Mirra gives you exactly one copy on volatile media... not the best solution, if you ask me. Sounsd like DVD's would be a better solution. Either that, or several hard drives. Once that hard drive in the Mirra goes, you're toast. Hard drives are only designed to last *one year* whereas DVD's and CD's have an unknown life span )obviously much more than one year). Plus, if you have a fire, all of your data is gone. For important stuff, off-site backups are very important.

Re:Backups today

[Anonymous Coward]

Hard drives are only designed to last *one year*

B.S. Please provide a link to back that up. Just because a warranty is 1 year, or 3 years, doesn't meant the device is only designed to last that long. I have hard-drives ranging from as little as 6GB that I've had for 6 years that have been in use almost every day since I bought them that are still in perfect working condition with no errors.

Re:Backups today

[Lispy]

Living on the edge, huh? Lcuky you. But trust me, if the first HD fails on you you will understand his point.

Re:Backups today

[Anonymous Coward]

No, not living on the edge. I have had failures. (Arguably more than my share of failures.) But drives aren't "designed" to work for 1 year and then fail shortly there after.

Re:Backups today

[IntergalacticWalrus]

That 6GB of yours is most likely a very old HD, and back then they were much more resistent than our modern 7200RPM, over-heating monstrosities. I too have a prehistoric 6GB that's been running almost 24/7 for possibly five years and still kicking, while my more recent 40GB HD just died after 6 months of similar use.

Re:Backups today

[Seth Finklestein]

DVDs and CDs can last for a very short time. One scratch on that little disc can kill everything. You are using caddies to mount your precious media, aren't you?

I back up my data, all of which is precious, to three RAID arrays in two countries. Can you do this with your precious DVDs without incurring fascist "postal service" charges?

If you have a fire, all your CDs and DVDs will melt into pools of indistinct data-liquid. Do you want to mop up the remnants of pornography? I know I don't.

Sincerely,
Seth Finklestein
Backup Media Bigot

Re:Backups today

[NineNine]

B.S. Please provide a link to back that up. Just because a warranty is 1 year, or 3 years, doesn't meant the device is only designed to last that long. I have hard-drives ranging from as little as 6GB that I've had for 6 years that have been in use almost every day since I bought them that are still in perfect working condition with no errors.


Oh, in that case, Toyota trucks never, ever fail. I've had mine for 6 years without a problem. Glad you cleared that up for me.

Re:Backups today

[Seth Finklestein]

He didn't jump to that conclusion. You did.

Hard drives aren't designed to last for just one year. Your anecdotal evidence is not sufficient proof to make that claim. I'm sorry that your hard drives keep failing, but that's probably because you buy inferior-quality hardware.

Trust me, Mr. Nine. You don't gain credibility in the tech community by whining about the crappy hardware you buy. You gain credibility by citing relevant, useful sources as proof for your so-called "arguments." I, for example, use e-reliability.com extensively for my hard drive reliability studies.

Sincerely,
Seth Finklestein
Researcher Extraordinaire

Re:Backups today

[Anonymous Coward]

umm, thats why you use a fireproof safe. (I for instance have two copies of my most important files, one at home in a fireproof safe, and the other in my safety deopsit box at the bank)

what exactly are these 80 gigs of documents anyway. 80g is a damn lot if it's documents! (esp. with compression) or do you have some pics, video, or database files in there too?

if you do indeed have that much data that must be backup up, then try tacking a look at tape backup as well. If I remember correctly they have a capacity much higher than dvd. (and remember dual layer dvds, etc are coming out soon)

Re:Backups today

[Anonymous Coward]

when taking proper care (ex. not scratching the disk) optical media is generally more stable than magnetic media. hard drives are suseptible to very short lifetimes as well (vibration, magnetic fields, humidity, etc.)

Re:Backups today

[Anonymous Coward]

My seven year old Saturn SL never ever failed either, at least not until I ran it into a little planet called "Earth".

Re:Backups today

[Inthewire]

Fireproof safes prevent combustion, numbnuts.
Your diamonds will shatter, your gold will melt, and your backups will warp.

Doesn't anyone do market research anymore?

[sparklingfruit]

Ok "the masses" to me means people who aren't overly computer literate, but are interested in transporting data from home to work or wherever. As for backup, usually that is handled automatically at work. At home maybe all they would need to do is backup documents and email.. which will fit on a cd. And besides, relying on one 120gb HD as a backup makes no sense. If you want incremental backups... it won't last long. And you need removable media to store somewhere else. As for the "computer saavy" person. Christ.. It'd be much cheaper for me to simply carry around an HD on it's own, open the friggin case and plug it into an IDE channel.

Crap!

[twoslice]

Looks like Mirra needa a Mirra! /.ed already...

How long until its hacked

[SiliconJesus]

Like the TiVO, this thing is running linux, as such, its just a matter of time before people figgure out how to dd the image from the 120gb drive installed to add larger and faster drive capacities. Given that it is still a Linux PC driven application NAS, the possibilities are endless. The price is a touch high at $400, but it should drop once/if it gains marketshare.

The other thing to contemplate would be to get the image off the harddrive, and be able to create bigger / badder boxes by simply adding the apropriate hardware drivers to Linux. Imagine the software portion being able to control a nice hardware RAID of say 200 GB drives. More fault tolerant and easier (for us Linux folks) to use.

Re:How long until its hacked

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually a useful hack would be to add Samba or NFS accessability to it to allow "live" access to the data. Of course this depends on how the data is actually stored on-drive but I doubt it would be using any particularly fancy or hard to hack format.

Re:How long until its hacked

[karnal]

I think that the bigger question is, Who will buy this thing at $400 a piece just to hack it?

People who want to "get more from less" generally buy "less". I don't see a lot of people saying "ooo - cool, I can spend $400 on this, and then spend another $200 on a 300gb drive"... Not saying it won't be done, but the Tivo had a better price/value ratio (even without hacking)...

The point...

[SexyKellyOsbourne]

You're all asking what the point of this is. Talking about how you could build a cheaper, better, faster one with a bigger pen^H^H^H hard drive in it, but you've missed the point.

This isn't for YOU, it's for your neighbor. Or your uncle, your Mom, or anyone else who DOESN'T have a closet full of overclocked Celeron 366 motherboards, and a working knowledge of Linux.

It's also for the people who don't have static IP addresses at home, but want to access their backed up files from anywhere:

Mirra's installation assumes that its location has an "always on" broadband connection, and uses it to reach out and touch the Ispiri corporate service. Most of the time, this is a simple "ping" every couple of seconds, although it also provides an opportunity for unattended software updates and fixes.

If an off-site user has properly authenticated to the Mirra service at the Ispiri host, and requests a file, the service makes the request when the Mirra next touches base. The advantage of this approach is that the connection is initiated by the Mirra server inside the user's router or firewall.

Sounds like a handy little box to me if it does all it says:
Automatic background backups
Automatic background file synchronization
Remote access that works behind a NAT-box
Expandable

I'm not gonna buy one, mostly because I don't need one, but when my Dad asks me about backing up his important info I just might tell him to get one....

Re:The point...

[Tim C]

It's also for those of us who do have the technical expertise, but frankly have better things to do with their free time than build something if a perfectly acceptable off-the-shelf product exists.

That said, whilst reading the article, I was mulling over how to go about building one myself, and what chance I'd have of convincing my girlfriend that while yes, we do have 3 PCs between 3 of us, another one *would* be a good idea...

Re:The point...

[phillymjs]

This isn't for YOU, it's for your neighbor. Or your uncle, your Mom, or anyone else who DOESN'T have a closet full of overclocked Celeron 366 motherboards, and a working knowledge of Linux.

This is targeted at people who likely paid $400 (grudgingly) for their whole computer. They're going to take one look at this thing, see it doesn't include a keyboard or monitor (ignoring the fact that they're not needed) and dismiss it as too expensive.

There is no future for a device where its target market is too cheap to purchase it.

~Philly

Re:The point...

[jhkoh]

Interesting. So you can get modded up for copying old posts?

Re:The point...

[Swanktastic]

SexyKellyOsbourne wrote:

I'm not gonna buy one, mostly because I don't need one, but when my Dad asks me about backing up his important info I just might tell him to get one....

What are Ozzy's backup requirements anyways?

Re:The point...

[stuph]

[i]That said, whilst reading the article, I was mulling over how to go about building one myself, and what chance I'd have of convincing my girlfriend that while yes, we do have 3 PCs between 3 of us, another one *would* be a good idea...[/i] I convinced mine by doing it.. once she could easily access all of my mp3s, movies, tv shows, etc on the file server w/out having to make sure my computer was on, not doing anything too terribly important, etc, she saw that it was not such a bad thing... just make it quiet and stick it in a corner or behind something where she won't really see it, keep the cables neat and tidy, and it's generally okay...

Re:The point...

[curious.corn]

Whoever modded this guy down to OT is a complete, utter fool (and jackass). Cripes, I expected the parent to be apped to the plagiarist's score, at least. Bah, /. is getting worse every day... well, you'll pay for it in metamod don't you worry...

Re:The point...

[theflea]

This device sounds cool, and I've no doubt its easy to use.

However, as others have pointed out, it might be doomed to failure. Based on my observations, people who really do back up their data already have an easy solutions such as optical media, and simple copying between two networked machines.

The people who should buy one of these little boxes are the ones who constantly ignore any and all simple advice about how to ensure their documents, etc don't get hosed (I'm sure everyone here as a story to tell about people like that).

After all, the act of backing up in a home/home office situation is really just a bunch of copy/paste keystrokes, but in my experience getting people to do this is like pulling teeth. I recently had an encounter with a certain family member who was telling me how important his data was, etc etc. I suggested an easy solution for backups, and even offered to add a second hard drive to his PC so he could occasionally ghost the entire hard drive. Despite my continued offers, all I got was "yeah, we shoiuld do that some day, but not yet" Of course, down the road when the hard drive inevitably fails, I'll be asked to become a data forensics guy on 10 minutes notice. Grrrrrrr.

Re:The point...

[CrosseyedPainless]

It's for the network that's big enough to need distributed backup, yet too small to have an administrator.

Have a nice niche!

Re:The point...

[Anonymous Coward]

An EKG machine and 10cc's of adrenalin.

Re:The point...

[jred]

Yeah, don't get a full tower super server w/ hot swappable scsi raid, each drive (5) having 2 fans in the tray, plus 4-5 huge case fans, and put it in your bedroom. For some reason women can hear the fan noise & it bugs them.

Re:The point...

[jubei]

I was mulling over how to go about building one myself, and what chance I'd have of convincing my girlfriend that while yes, we do have 3 PCs between 3 of us

Ok, so is it you or your girlfriend that has multiple personalities?

Or maybe the girlfriend is also just one of these personalities? :)

Re:The point...

[nsxdavid]

Well I just placed an order for one. I guess I'm a doufus who gets lazy about backups at home. We'll see how this works!

Re:The point...

[stuph]

whereas i've always found the fan noise to be soothing and relaxing as i'm drifting off to sleep...

Re:The point...

[gmhowell]

No, it's because his girlfriend has another guy living there who bangs her like there's no tomorrow instead of fucking around on all those damned computers.

49

[Anonymous Coward]

49

A backup 'solution?'

[JoeCommodore]

My home network consists of:

- Windows 98/Linux Box (primarily Linux used)
- B&W G3 primarily running OS9 (OSX on there too, boot to it maybe once a quarter or so)

- wife's iMac OS9
- a Commodore 64 with Contiki and RR Net

If this is to be labeled a "solution" it should support all of them, right? ;->

Re:A backup 'solution?'

[objekt404]

Yeah, & I'm sure that it'll make the perfect backup solution for my TRS-80 5.25" discs too....

Re:A backup 'solution?'

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 98/Linux Box (primarily Linux used)

I just love how the linux fanboys always have to explicitly state that, although they have a Windows PC, it's rarely used in lieu of linux -- just to make sure that their fellow Tang drinkers don't mistake them for one of "those" people while still offering a maximum amount of worthless personal information.

Grow a spine, won't you? This Slashdot is quite the little microcosm.

Re:A backup 'solution?'

[WebMasterJoe]

The backups to software on the C-64 can be found in the back of the magazine, pages 168-174. Be sure to install the latest version of "Proofreader" on page 135!

After restoring, save it to tape (or diskette, if you're lucky) and the program can be run anytime by typing LOAD "*",1 (for tape drives) or LOAD "*",8,1 (for diskette drives).

To view your other backups, insert the diskette and type LOAD "$",8 . If you get no response, you may need to tap RUN/STOP/RESOTRE to resume.

Sorry, must be the New Year thing. What year are we in now? I want my Compute!

Re:A backup 'solution?'

[WebMasterJoe]

And yes, my C-64 does have a RESOTRE key. I had it special-ordered from Sears.

Re:A backup 'solution?'

[JoeCommodore]

I just love how the linux fanboys always have to explicitly state that, although they have a Windows PC, it's rarely used in lieu of linux...

Linux Fanboy!?? I'm a Commodore fanatic you insensitive clod!

I'm just getting into Linux, my main 'power system' is the Mac.

Re:A backup 'solution?'

[Anonymous Coward]

really?
i have about five years of them laying around.
perhaps i should put them up on ebay, or reply if interested.

Re:A backup 'solution?'

[WebMasterJoe]

For nostalgia sake, I suppose I would like to see a few issues... if you wouldn't mind sending an issue or two my way, email me and I'll give you my address.

RAID-1 on one single hard drive

[Anonymous Coward]

We have some concerns about the single point of failure -- the lone IDE hard drive. While Mirra is investigating solutions to alleviate this issue (including "backing up the backup" and RAID), nothing firm has been decided. If the hard drive crashes, you do lose all the old versions of your data, but local copy is still available.

Stupid idea or bad journalism?

Tape Backup

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no substitue for a good tape backup.

Absolutly Pointless

[youngerpants]

Even for a home user (before i get flamed)

1) Buy a big shiny new HDD and put in your box.

2) Find instructions for how to software RAID it with your OS of choice (sorry mac users)

3) Set up RAID

4) Erm... done

OK, 5) Profit (couldnt resist)

Re:Absolutly Pointless

[glenstar]

2) Find instructions for how to software RAID it with your OS of choice (sorry mac users)

Um... SoftRaid.

Re:Absolutly Pointless

[SiliconJesus]

The point of it is that your grandmother isn't going to know what RAID is, but I'd be willing to bet that she could plug in a computer and put a CD installer in her computer.

I understand where you're coming from, but you and I are not the target audience for this toy.

Re:Absolutly Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, but on my Mac (running the very bsd-like OS X) you have RAID built into the OS, as demonstrated here with Floppy drives

Re:Absolutly Pointless

[grumbel]

RAID is a good solution for not so reliable harddisks, but it is not a replacement for backup. After all RAID only protects against harddisk failure, not against the user doing 'rm *' in the wrong folder, thats what you want backup for.

With two harddisks I would probally not set them up in a RAID, but having them run side by side, mirrored via an rsync based software, such as rdiff-backup, that would give the advantage of having incremental diffs and allowing to recover from an 'rm *'. Sure one has to make sure that it isn't mounted the whole time or else it could get wiped out too just too easily.

Re:Absolutly Pointless

[CatOne]

RAID 0 and 1 are built into Mac OS X. And you can boot from it (you can't boot from a SoftRAID volume).

Though rebuild is a bit crappy (you must manually rebuild the mirror in case of a failure... sucks).

Re:Absolutly Pointless

[glenstar]

Thanks for the heads up. I am basically Mac illiterate, but know some people at SoftRAID, which is the only reason I know of the product.

Re:Absolutly Pointless

[toddestan]

Keep in mind that in the Windows world, you need to have atleast Windows 2000/2003 Server to get software RAID 1. The 2000/XP Pro only support software RAID 0. Which I think is stupid, as RAID 1 is something I bet a lot of the "Pro" users would want to do.

Re:Absolutly Pointless

[drsmithy]

NT4 Server is certainly capable of software RAID 1 and 5, and earlier versions probably are as well. NT4 workstation will also recognise and use RAID 1 and 5 volumes setup under NT4 Server and it was also possible to use a freely available tool to setup RAID 1 and 5 volumes under NT4 Workstation. I'm not sure if the same applies to Win2k - never bothered trying.

Re:Absolutly Pointless

[drsmithy]

RAID 0 and 1 are built into Mac OS X. And you can boot from it (you can't boot from a SoftRAID volume).

Are you sure OS X can boot from a RAID 0 ? I can't imagine there's enough smarts in Open Firmware to access a RAID 0 volume (maybe the bootloader does and sits in its own non RAID 0 partition, but that's kinda cheating).

Speaking like an average user...

[bigjnsa500]

What's a backup?

Re:Speaking like an average user...

[Anonymous Coward]

... (in a ralph wiggum voice, of course... )

Re:Speaking like an average user...

[curunir]

The average user found out about backups when Carrie (Sex in the City) had her powerbook crash. Everyone kept asking her, "you mean you don't backup?"

...of course, the "backup" reference actually meant "copy to floppy" which those of us who've worked in a computer lab know is only slightly more reliable than "restore from oija board."

Huh?

[rjnagle]

So are you recommending to use software RAID as your primary/only backup method?

And if software RAID fails? People who know anything about RAID say that it should never be relied upon as a primary backup method. You're still going to have to backup somewhere to another media/hd.

What happens when mirra.com is gone?

[djmurdoch]

You can't do restores locally, you *have to* do them through mirra.com. What happens when your Internet connection is down? What happens when they get tired of offering this free service, and start charging subscription fees? What happens when they go out of business?

It's pretty bizarre to have all the negatives of off-site backup without offering any of the positives (i.e. off-site backup!).

requires a case of windose to function?

[Anonymous Coward]

a linux box? what kind of smoke&mirrors.con is that?

planet/population rescue, gnu millennium edition? (Score:-1, Offtopic)
by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 31, @12:08PM (#7846083)
no need to wrap it, just put it on the kharm(a).

making the case that the won-eyed girl is a phonIE (mynuts won, beating a lame won to debt?)
by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 31, @06:48AM (#7844071)

will corepirate nazi felon ?pr? ?firm? scriptdead execrable (mynuts won, it's ok if you do it for monIE?)
by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 31, @06:44AM (#7844061)
skew/FUDge survey results/EVERYTHING?

you can bet your .asp again on that won. fortunately we have robbIE's 'stuff that matters' slowgun, & his gnu dating service to keep US abreast of reality/prevent softwar gangster hypenosys mindphuking?

&, failing that, we have the:

pateNTdead eyecon0meter used to .controll ?pr? ?firm? crap? (mynuts won, need a date buddIE?)
by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 30, @02:38PM (#7837849)
that's right. this stuff is unbreakable, & wwworks on several (more than 3) dimensions.

morons build vessel that floats on any suBStance? (mynuts won, no need to be suspicious?)
by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 29, @02:53PM (#7829639)
you can bet your .asp on that won?

creators/humankind converge to repel unprecedented evile? (mynuts won, who run our 'banks'?)
by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 29, @02:51PM (#7829610)

& why not? what other options are there for us?

eyecon0meter: survival most sought after feature? (mynuts won, get yOUR freedumb here?)
by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 29, @02:48PM (#7829586)

creators' badtoll over corepirate nazi execrable (mynuts won, many think hangin's way too good for the skalywags?)
by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 29, @02:46PM (#7829567)
disposal?

newclear power dissed/cussed? (mynuts won, no animals killed buy MiStake in newclear power generation)
by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 29, @02:41PM (#7829536)
&, it's free as in free.

newclear powered blips explore corepirate nazi (mynuts won, no lowrating robbIE's sponsors?)
by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 29, @07:53AM (#7826913)
cesspool?

pheWWW.

lookout bullow. the daze of the phonIE payper liesense ?pr? ?firm? hypenosys stock markup FraUD softwar gangster execrable, is WANing into coolapps/the abyss, at the increasing speed of right.

consult with/trust in yOUR creators.... get ready to brighten up?

mynuts won: solar(is) power included?

* mynuts won, stuff that really matters is...? by Anonymous Coward (Score:-1) Wednesday December 31, @12:14PM

Anything more space efficient?

[michaelmalak]

Mirra seems to have products for "home", "small office", but how about for "apartment", or just a home trying to be space-efficient?

For the first time in over twenty years, I'm eliminating my "computer room" -- switching instead to the concept of a server closet plus roaming notebooks with WiFi. I don't think I'm the only one.

My server closet currently has a cable modem, a WiFi router with built-in print server & parallel port, and a laser printer. The cable modem and router are the typical small vertically standing self-contained units. I'd like to find storage and backup servers in the same form factor, with a web-accessible admin page -- like the router has -- to avoid the need for bulky keyboards and monitors. At first glace at their website, it doesn't look like Mirra has such a beast -- just units built around a full-size desktop tower.

Re:Anything more space efficient?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um....the Mirra uses the MiniITX form factor - which is very small and exactly what you describe.

Re:Anything more space efficient?

[moorg]

I think a lot of folks would like to move to the server closet idea. The problem that I have ran into is that I can't get power into my apartment closet.

Oops!

[djmurdoch]

Should have read the review. According to the review, off-site access through mirra.com isn't required. I just got that impression from reading the mirra.com site.

I preferred

[MosesJones]

Dave Mirra BMX to this as no matter how hard I tried it just wasn't as much fun raiding a disc as pulling a double backflip over a moving train.

He must have meant...

[twoslice]

* Windows XP on 2000 Pentium III's: 256K RAM; 25MB free hard disk space

Re:He must have meant...

[Anonymous Coward]

actually i was quoting the information on
http://www.mirra.com/buy/index.html
under the section with the heading
System & Network Requirements
and ment to more focus on the part about windows being the only OS they support. and their possible typo about their ram requirement, but i guess my anti-ms behavior went a bit too far.

Software RAID?

[October_30th]

Software RAID?

What are you smoking?

Buy hardware RAID with an automatic rebuild. It's the only way to be sure.

Re:Software RAID?

[Hast]

Most HW RAID don't do RAID5 in HW. And if they do it then it's really slow. And if you want a big array then you probably want RAID5.

And if your HW RAID is fried then you'll be left standing with a bunch of harddisks with data you can't access unless you find an identical card. Instead you can set up a file server with an UPS to keep it safe from power failiure. Unless you plan to spend a lot of cash on having redundant hardware around it's cheaper and most likely more reliable.

BTW With Software RAID I mean the type you select when you compile your Linux kernel. Not a crappy "RAID Card" with RAID drivers. (Which just give you the worst of both SW And HW.)

DUPE

[Anonymous Coward]

this is a dupe for an older slashvertisement

ps overrrated comments will be reposted

Not sure why you're calling it a RAID 1 unit

[CatOne]

It's not actually RAID 1, and in fact there's no RAID in the unit at all.

Is this an attempt because it synchs your data? I've seen RAID 1. I know RAID 1. And lemme tell ya, that ain't RAID 1.

Re:Not sure why you're calling it a RAID 1 unit

[steveoc]

It could be Raid-1 on a single disk - just using 2 partitions mirrored.

If the disk dies bigtime, then you are out of luck, but if the disk crash is localised to 1 partition, then you can at least recover.

Dumb idea perhaps, but technically RAID-1.

That would also mean that their 80GB unit can store no more than 40GB if it is truly RAID-1. They should come clean about this in their advertising either way.

Re:Not sure why you're calling it a RAID 1 unit

[Anonymous Coward]

Technically, the array in 'Redundant Array of (Independent|Inexpensive) (Disks|Drives)' implies more than one disk or drive, no?

Re:Not sure why you're calling it a RAID 1 unit

[CatOne]

Er...

That would REALLY stink performance-wise, because unless you have independent heads you'd have to thrash for every single bit of data on the disk. I have never heard of that being done, and it would also reduce capacity by half.

I'd bet a million to one... no THREE million to one, that nobody's ever done what you propose ;-)

Re:Not sure why you're calling it a RAID 1 unit

[Anonymous Coward]

Once a drive crashes, you have to pay through the nose for someone with a cleanroom to recover anything from it. No matter how much of the platters survived, that head is still beat to hell and sitting on a platter that isn't smooth and flat--it'd be like holding the Indy 500 on a track with potholes and boulders.

Re:Not sure why you're calling it a RAID 1 unit

[steveoc]

Actually, the last brand new WD 120GB that I bought died bigtime about a month after I got it. Something just came loose in the drive and the whole thing rattled like a bucket of nails.

I put the drive in the fridge for a while, and was able to mount 3 out of the 4 partitions on the drive and backup the data to CD. I could only burn a couple of CD's at a time before having to cool the drive down again.

Later on, I got the idea of putting ice packs around the drive to make it last a little longer, and managed to get the rest of the stuff backed up.

Some parts where fsck failed to rebuild the FS, I managed to cat /dev/hda2 > a big file on a cleared parition, and extract a number of MP3's from the big file manually using emacs - worked well.

All up, it took me 2 weeks to recover the data (doing a bit each night).

It seems the rattling was isolated to 1 partition (maybe a platter had come loose ??) , so that was an object lesson on the benefits of partitioning.

Oh - and for the record, I have tried RAID-1 on a single drive, just because I only had 1 drive spare, and wanted to try out this new-fangled software raid setup. (It was on a brand new K6-450, so what vintage is that ?). It was a waste of time, of course. The additional work that the drive has to do would significantly reduce the life of the drive, so as a disaster-prevention scheme it is a braindead idea.

Having admitted to that, do I qualify for the 3 Million to 1 odds ? Ill see your 3 Million, and raise you another 3 Million that there is someone else out there who has done this as well. Ive seen a lot of people do really stupid things with computers over the past 20 years, so I reckon that your odds are short.

Re:Not sure why you're calling it a RAID 1 unit

[steveoc]

Er ..

An array can have 0 or more elements. (Not sure about the validity of negative numbers as array indices though)

Therefore, I can sell you a machine with Zero hard disks, and still make the mathematically viable claim that it includes a RAID storage system.

Plenty of companies have survived for years on making hollow claims, so why not 0-Disk RAID as well ?

When RAID 0 is more than you need...

[Anonymous Coward]

...use RAID -1. Gives you the same reliability as RAID 0 with one less drive!

And how does this help you recover old data?

[g0hare]

How does it help you get back that deleted file from last year? How does it help you take your data to a secure offsite location in case of disaster? Why isn't it cheaper than just buying a second hard drive and mirroring it? Why would anyone use this except people who still run win98? Even those losers could buy a cheap removable hard drive cage and an IDE raid controller, then even take the drive off site.

This is a technology in search of a use.

Re:And how does this help you recover old data?

[cybrthng]

Mirroring a drive is pointless if you get a virus.

Home users don't usually pay for iron mountain to come by and pick up tapes

And that IS affordable for what it does. You can spend 10 grand on a new flat screen tv but you can't spend 399 on backup system?

Most people spend that much on cell phones and pda's that never get that much use to begin with.

geez, thinking about it i paid that much for my RIO mp3 player when it came out.

Re:And how does this help you recover old data?

[Mindwarp]

Average Joe answers:

How does it help you take your data to a secure offsite location in case of disaster?

That's what the Office of Homeland Security is for, isn't it?

Why isn't it cheaper than just buying a second hard drive and mirroring it?

I already have enough RAM thank you.

Why would anyone use this except people who still run win98?

Come on! I upgraded to Windows ME six months ago!

Even those losers could buy a cheap removable hard drive cage and an IDE raid controller, then even take the drive off site.

What's IDE?

Re:And how does this help you recover old data?

[Inthewire]

Re Iron Mountain / Arcus / whatever they call themselves these days:
Fuck them with rusty jackhandles.
I wasted months of my life dealing with those shitheads.
How hard is it to pick a return set in order?
Refiling is a lot easier when the tapes aren't strewn throughout 14 carts.

Answering like a 3133+ geek....

[frodo from middle ea]

RTFM

Re:Answering like a 3133+ geek....

[jxs2151]

RTFM

Spoken like a true /. elitist....

Thanks for the confirmation...

[SuperKendall]

I was looking and looking for what kind of Raid they offered, but couldn't find anything! I just thought I was not able to find the details about Raid.

What I think would be cool is a home unit like this that included two hard drives and mirrored them, so that I could just pop one unit out (perhaps an HD in a cart that they would sell) for a quick offsite backup with not much chance of main unit failure (alternately replacing an HD a year ought to cover things).

Instead the system is mostly about easy sharing, but with the large size of images now, combined with upstream caps and providers looking for bandwidth going "the wrong way" I don't know how well they will fare.

YOU SO FUCKING FAIL IT MOTHERFUCKER !!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Please commit suicide

Mirra

[badmammajamma]

Mirra is a great idea really. I would like a networked backup solution that I can even access from anywhere on the web. In fact, this is exactly what I'm looking for in a backup product right now. However, I will NEVER buy this product with it's current pricing model. Not because it's $500, but because they charge an extra $100 for an upgrade of 80 to 125GB of storage. A quick check on price watch shows you can get a 160GB HD for $104. It's called RAPING the customer. Mirra can go to hell for that. Here's my favorite quote from their site:

"50% larger than the M-80 for only $100 more."

WHAT A BARGAIN!! ROFL

Re:Mirra

[thechu17]

I agree with you badmammajamma. Mirra is a good idea if you know what you are doing, but the price is a little high. I have heard there are actual RAID solutions for SOHO and small businesses where you can buy your own HDDs, therefore being able to upgrade to whatever storage capacity you desire. I found a company that sells such a product, but it is a little pricey. Do you think sometime like this might be popular within the storage market? http://www.accusysusa.com/Acuta/Acuta_web.html Looks interesting, but dont know if it is easy to use. I am not sure if the storage industry should go in this direction, but it could have a good future because of more and more data and information available. Should be interesting to see if something like this (Personal RAID) might succeed in the current storage market industry. Definitly expensive though, like you said before, but potentially useful if it is easy to use.

Where is the source code??

[cleetus]

I checked around the mirra.com site, and could find no place to download the source code.

If this box is running some linux variant, they need to at least offer the source code to all who have a mirra box in order to be in compliance with the GPL. (of course, it would be better for them to to offer the source via anonymous ftp, but the GPL doesn't require that...)

Let's hope Mirra is not another Linsys.

cleetus

Re:Where is the source code??

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, they aren't required to offer the source code unless they've made changes to anything. It sounds to me like they're just using a small distribution, a web server, and some backup software. It looks to me like all they are charging for is hardware and bundling.

Short version: If I use the linux kernel in a commercial product, I don't need to offer the source to it unless I've changed the kernel to do something special that it didn't do before. And if I write a program that operates on top of the kernel, I do NOT need to release that.

Re:Where is the source code??

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't bother asking them. They told me they do not give out source code to their products.

-B

Useless. Only backs up Win2K or WinXP.

[dpbsmith]

Phooey. It says right here that

"You can remotely access your photos and files from any Internet-connected PC, including Macs. Currently only computers that run Windows 2000 or Windows XP are supported for Mirra Backup and Restore within your home network."

So, my wife's PC running Windows 98 and my PowerMac G4 running OS X 10.3.2 could read files that had been backed up from any other machines on our network... except... there aren't any.

RE:Useless. Only backs up Win2K or WinXP.

[kupci]

The .NET requirement is probably why it's restricted to 2k and xp, seemingly an odd choice, until you see that founder worked at MSFT. Old habits die hard? Other than that it's hard to think of _some_ good reason to use .NET for the client, as you've pointed out one major flaw, and especially when so many better choices are available ( mainly samba as others have posted). The choice of Linux for the server is good however.

source?

[hakalugi]

"...Mirra software setup installs it for you. The server itself runs a form of Linux, but you never see the underlying OS. All interaction with Mirra takes place either through the client software or a Web browser..."

so where's the source? I'd like to build one for meself.

Re:source?

[deanj]

They probably didn't make any changes to Linux itself. They aren't required to post the source.

Why wouldn't I just...

[ewanrg]

... get one of these
For a lot less money and still have one-touch convienence, less electricity usage, and much quieter operation?

Re:Why wouldn't I just...

[Anonymous Coward]

why the heck are you shopping for hard drives at amazon?

Ok, linux geeks. Mini-ask /.

[teamhasnoi]

I've got a extra p225 with 196 meg of ram. How can I turn this into the same thing, but platform independent? I've got a BeOS machine, OS X, and Windows XP. I would love to mirror folders from each, but currently there is no easy way (that I know of).

Where is the magic linux solution for this? Something that goes in, mirrors the files, keeps maybe 1 version back, and allows for automagical, hands-off, set and forget operation.

I've tried various backup programs that claim to do similar things, but none really do the job. What's people using for on/offsite network backup on old machines?

Re:Ok, linux geeks. Mini-ask /.

[gozar]

Install your favorite Linux distribution (I would recommend Debian) and Samba. Don't use Netatalk for OS X access, connect through Samba. Store your documents in your home directory from all three systems. Then use the directions here to use Rsync to backup your files.

I don't know how any meta-information on files is handled with BeOS. Under OS X, connecting through Samba stores the meta-information in a hidden file in each directory.

automagically?

[Cyberllama]

Since when does Slashdot post corporate press releases. . .

Re:automagically?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when does Slashdot post corporate press releases...

Upcoming topics for Ask Slashdot:

• Is the Pope a Catholic,
• Do bears shit in the woods, and (perhaps better handled as a /. poll),
• What color is the sky on your planet?

This doesn't solve the whole problem

[TimFreeman]

If your backups are in the same room as your live data, then you can lose it all by fire or theft.

If there's no plan to restore the operating system onto a blank disk, you can be down for an unknown amount of time after having to replace a disk.

If the data isn't encrypted during backup, then it can be read from a stolen backup device. Public-key cryptography would be required to do automated encrypted backups if you aren't going to provide the computer with the means to decrypt. I haven't seen an implementation of this.

precisely...

[rtilghman]

My thoughts exactly. The concept is nice, but there is no way you're going to get joe consumer or joe "tech-savvy" consumer to plop down $400 for a back-up that:

1) Takes a glacial amount of time to run (first run is apparently horrendous, but even the incremental back-ups are supposedly laughably slow)

2) Can ONLY take software driven HD back-ups, and cannot serve as a file server/network drop (yeah, that's right, sucks doesn't it?)

I saw a more critical review of the product that discussed testing, etc.

I've been dealing with this now since I really need back-up for my FLAC collection, want it on my network, and need flexibility. You would think that this would be easy... but it seems like no one can figure out how to make a stripped down hard drive with a bare OS for $200.

However, of all the ones I've looked at I will say that the Tritton 120gb NAS hard drive come's REAAAAALLLy close. You can read about it here:

http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=103519 60 &loc=10995

(their web site is apparently down)

-rt

Re:precisely...

[really?]

If you like that,have a look at the Buffalo products.
I have a 120GB NAS - the HD-120LAN to be precise - that I picked up for just under US$ 200. They now have the same box with GigE support.
(One can replace the 120 gig drive with a 250, which I will be doing next weekend.)

Uses rise as applications are bound together

[stonecypher]

This is neat and all, but when you consider the impact re: machines hosting PVRs like Freevo and MythTV, all of a sudden it becomes Tremendously Cool (tm) .

Does anyone out there have experience with both this and an off-the-shelf DVR which is openable, such as a ReplayTV? This is nearly an off-the-shelf expandable DVR solution, if making it talk to a Replay isn't difficult. That sort of thing a mom or a pop *would* pay $400 for, if they knew about it.

Or do it for free

[Anonymous Coward]

Using p2p with foldershare.

If they can advertise, so can I.

wrong... you should _read_ the GPL sometime

[raulmazda]

Even if you do not alter the GPL'd source, you must provide the source when distributing binaries, or alternatively include a written offer to provide it on demand.

See item 3 of the terms and conditions. An exception is given for non-commercial distribution, but that doesn't apply here.

Re:wrong... you should _read_ the GPL sometime

[Bourbonium]

Or you could even read the Mirra.com website. This device doesn't run Linux, nor do they support Linux or Macintosh (though they may explore this support option in the future if the market for these platforms grows). The founder of Mirra is a former Microsoftie and the client software only runs on Windows XP or 2000 machines.

Re:wrong... you should _read_ the GPL sometime

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you even read the site??? According to the following link, it runs Linux....

http://www.mirra.com/product/index.html

The problem is it isn't a turn key file server

[rtilghman]

It's an NAS Back-up system. The Mirra can't be used as a network drop or accessed directly by the owner. Its only function is as a backup system working with the client software installed by the user.

Very limited, very stupid, and it is also horribly slow.

-rt

Re:BackupPC - OS X?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can it support OS X also? I suppose given the ssh connection it shouldn't care. unicode-16 filenames
might give it some problems perhaps though(?). I have my music over on an OS X machine. (not really backed up...)

Hedley

Tell me abou tit

[rtilghman]

I submitted a story to Slashdot not a week ago talking about the state of home NAS in general, and requesting input from the Slashdot community. That story covered the Mirra AND a bunch of alternative solutions, discussed the pros and cons of them briefly, etc.

But instead we get an article talking about the dead on arrival Mirra... in detail... which we've had before. I guess Slashdot doesn't like stories that don't sell product. You guys selling a lot of Mirra units Taco? How much Mirra stock does the article poster have?

-rt

Re:Tell me abou tit

[Bourbonium]

Uh, go read the Mirra.com website. This is a tiny little privately held company in Mt. View, founded by a guy who's been laid off from both 3DO and WebTV and apparently used to work at Microsoft. They're private, not public, so they don't sell stock.

Sounds like a good Open Source Project

[BuckaBooBob]

When the dollar price is dropping so rapidly on Decent enough hardware for a file server it seems that a OPen Source Linux based solution would be great for this type of idea...

Everything to do this effectivly is out there.. It just needs a bit of glue and a Simple distro could comprised with installation to take care of the slimming down to needed packages and a bit of scripting and its more or less done..

It's not size

[fm6]

No matter how big you make a disk, there will always be somebody who needs a bigger one. A typical SOHO network has maybe 30 to 60MB of non-redundant data. (Redundant data is stuff like application files you can easily re-install.) With incremental backups, the server will be obsolete long before it fills up.

Anyway, if your data needs are past this level, you need to think about hiring an IS person, not buying a backup gadget.

What makes this gadget a poor value is the level of safety is provides. All you're doing is copying your data from one hard disk to another. Two disks are better than one, but not that much better, especially if they're in the same building.

Serious backup solutions use reliable offline media. Hard disks are pretty reliable these days, but still not as reliable as a tape or CD. Plus you can stick them in a fireproof box or store them offsite. Add some HSM software and you've got a storage system that's as big as you need it to be.

No self-respecting campus network lacks this technology, but the SOHO user has been seriously neglected. Somebody needs to scale the tech down, and design the usual hand-holding front end so that you don't need a lot of training to manage the media. This has been an issue for years, even when SOHO computing consisted of one or two non-networked system. I guess catering to the low-end user is just not profitable enough.

Re:Absolutly Pointless Indeed

[value_added]

Funny, I just read similar comments in the Win2K server reskit book the other day. The problem is that while it's mostly correct, it's the answer to a question no one really asked.

Anybody who needs RAID and who has a brain in their head is implementing it on the hardware level. Data redundancy, therefore, is not a function of Win2000, Win2003, or any other OS for that matter. If one did choose to use the software RAID offered as part of an OS, it would be, well ... redundant -- sort of like paying the mob to protect you from the mob.

Re:Mirra (what the extra money buys)

[hermango]

The fact is that you know what you're doing when you do computer stuff and ASL of other people don't. They pay for their ignorance by coughing up extra money to pay the folks(like me) who have the knowledge. Yep, they could buy the equipment (computer, voice boards, etc.), write a voice mail application and maintain it, but they don't know how, so they buy my stuff, along with my knowledge. That's the way it is!

42

[Anonymous Coward]

42!

TROLL ALERT - You got caught

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't waste your time. That's not Seth Finkelstein. It's a troll, and you bit.

On the cheap...

[r_j_prahad]

I've got a second 80GB drive in a ViPower hot-swap mobile data rack. Less than $100US for the lot. I just pop out my Windows drive and plug in the backup when I want to image my Linux drive.

I don't keep anything important on the Windows drive so I don't need to back it up.

believe it or not...

[Ayanami Rei]

ntbackup.exe is actually halfway useful. Give it a shot.

What about the GPL?

[Anonymous Coward]

Noticed that this thing runs a version of Linux.
I could find nothing on their site about the GPL or how to obtain the source code for the GPL components.

My $0.03

[JMcKinley]

Linux, BeOS, an Entertainment Center PC, etc. aren't exactly mainstream, ya know?

This product is for the uncles, parents and other people out there who had you install Ethernet for. Yes, it's spendy but it is still something to consider (or reverse engineer) because you can do the whole backup thing via "set it and forget it" applications (for Windows 2000/XP).

For those of us who just need (expandable) network storage, I'm buying one of these bad boys. It's cheaper, expandable and can be plugged into my server closet.

For those of you who have this thing about off-site storage, let me know if your ISP minds you using GBs of data on a regular basis and if it's worth the time to push that much data to an FTP site (like this). You might as well use RFC1149 if broadband isn't available to you!

In summary, buy an external HDD and a fire-proof safe. Backup your data regularly. And don't accept candy from strangers.

CNN covers it too

[ResQuad]

Here is the link thinger:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/01/02/persona l. server.ap/index.html

Private Stock

[meehawl]

They're private, not public, so they don't sell stock.

No, one difference between a public and a private company is that everyone can buy non-preferred stock in a public company, but only insiders (VCs, friends, investors, family) can buy stock in a private company. Just because a company is private does not mean that it cannot exchange stock for money, to buy marketing, or for quanxi.

view of avg user

[cinnamon colbert]

1) Server ? what is that ? Way beyond me. 2) Software is the key - I actually bought two programs, Retrospect/stomp - and they were worse then useless, as I could not actually figure out what was happening, so I could have been in a situation where I thought thinkgs were backedup and they werent. I am not going to use software that complicated and badly designed. 3) Is all this complicated stuff really necessary ? Can't I just buy a new computer and load the CD with My Docs on it ? So what if it isnt exactly like the old one, and doesnt have the same versions of the same programs - do u think i care ? 4) I have a few gigs of data. So, what works real easy, just buy a dvd burner, and burn My docs once a weeek. Not fancy, but it works. Since the whole thing is backedup everyweek, I dont have to worry about finding anything unless it is deleted. And you know something ? I dont care that much. If it is that important, I'll sift thru the DVDs, or rewrite the doc. Of course, you have to be organized enought to have all your files in one place, so may be I am not an avg user

sorry nothing!

[Anonymous Coward]

Mac OS X 10.2 and newer come with software RAID options built right into the OS - Apple's Disk Utility will let you set it up in client and also server.

Re:Absolutly Pointless Indeed

[toddestan]

They already went to all the trouble to implement software RAID 0 (which I would guess that most people who want to get the performance out of RAID 0 would do it at the hardware level too) - so why not add a few lines of code for RAID 1? It seems to me that Microsoft intentionally crippled Windows 2000/XP Pro, and at the same time the feature is superfluous in the Server editions because any decent server has it at the hardware level. It really doesn't make sense.

Unison is great

[Anonymous Coward]

I use Unison as a synchronization/backup tool for computers running Linux, Solaris, MacOSX, and WinXP. It's GPL, but written in OCAML, so will probably build on any platform that OCAML is available for. It works wonderfully. It can be configured to keep X number of backup copies of files as well. I like that my backups are just files in the file system and so don't require any fancy/special software to access them.

Re:Absolutly Pointless Indeed

[drsmithy]

Anybody who needs RAID and who has a brain in their head is implementing it on the hardware level.

I disagree. If you're in a cost sensitive environment where performance is not critical (ie: nearly any home or small office situation) I think software RAID is the clear winner. With hardware RAID, if the card dies you need to replace it with an identical card - quickly - to be able to access your data, an expensive exercise (either buying a new one in a hurry or buying a spare with the initial purchase). With software RAID, you just need to slap the disks into another machine and configure it appropriately. Added to that, in home and small office environments, the performance of the software RAID will be more than adequate - the limiting factor is almost certainly going to be the network or the physical disk technology (IDE), rather than the CPU overhead of software RAID (which on any remotely modern machine is relatively insignificant, even with software RAID 5).

Cheaper Alternative Appliances

[Anonymous Coward]

I just saw a XIMETA Netdisk 160 Gb drive at Best Buy for $250. It provides Network Direct Attached Storage with RAID 1 and USB External Drive Storage in 3 lb. portable device.

This is not a plug; I only read the product's box. But it may answer whether the $400 Mirra is going to be the "next best thing".

100% sure

[CatOne]

Set it up on a bunch of Xserves.

Haven't tried it on a G4 or G5, but OS X supports it, because it's easy to do on Xserves. Booted off 2 and 4 drive RAID 0 volumes.

Re:100% sure

[drsmithy]

Haven't tried it on a G4 or G5, but OS X supports it, because it's easy to do on Xserves. Booted off 2 and 4 drive RAID 0 volumes.

Is there a small partition (maybe hidden) somewhere with the bootloader on it ?