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East vs. West: Culture and Distributed Development
CowboyRobot writes "ACM's Queue has an article entitled, Culture Surprises in Remote Software Development Teams
that reviews differences in cultures and explores the impact they have on distributed software development teams. From the article: "In Western societies, decisions are made on the basis of input from those involved. In cultures with greater hierarchies, group members assume an authority will decide and they are only to enact the decision." Some stereotypes and some common sense, but I recognized myself in the descriptions of the 'typical American'."
It's amusing to see everyone assume 'American' when mentioning the West. Has Europe moved into another ideological sphere that separates them from the rest of the world, and if so what is it?
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
When I first started reading the article, I figured they were talking about New York versus California. I've worked on bi-coastal projects, and the cultural differences in how things get decided (and even coding styles) are palpable.
Isn't this article just a nice way of saying that those in "Eastern" cultures can't think for themselves? That they're predisposed to follow orders, and are unsuitable participants in even a quasi-democratic system?
I'd imagine that some east-Asian Slashdotters might take issue with this.
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
The difference between east and west culture and the ramifications for the world have been in the news for a long time. For instance, the traditional religions in Asia have absolutely no problems with cloning or experimentation on embryos (which is basically verboten in western countries), so the majority of work in that field is in China or other countries which accept the future for what it is. The global marketplace is shrinking, and as we become more and more interconnected cultural differences will no doubt become more and more of an issue.
I would have expected some information about cultural norms in India in an article about cross-cultural technology projects. There was too little mention of China as well (if any? the article seems to be slashdotted now hmmf).
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
In cultures with greater hierarchies, group members assume an authority will decide and they are only to enact the decision." Some stereotypes and some common sense, but I recognized myself in the descriptions of the 'typical American'."
Agreed. This is consistent the projection that not-so mind/cognative-intensive software work will continue to go overseas while the R&D/high-cognative software related work stays here.
I personally don't feel much pity for the M$ visual basic ppl (ie, mega-corp software cogs) who whine about their job going overseas (let alone the gov't interfereing legistation to support that ideal).
G-Force music visualization
"...At the end of the videoconference, the Americans immediately disconnected the call. The French and Germans continued for another five minutes wishing a departing French teammate well in his retirement, and reminiscing about good times. The Europeans viewed the American behavior as rude and insensitive. The Americans viewed time as money, focusing on the cost of the videoconference. In other countries, entire meetings are devoted to establishing relationships, without conducting the core of the task at all."
Building relationships is a strong thing. Time is money but with a good repor you can get a lot more done easily. This is a time and money saver too. Just not as easily trackable of one. And not in the short term but over the long haul of a project. It especially great if the project is going to last severa years.
Evolution or ID?
These cultural differences aren't exactly minor, and I think they can have a real impact on how teams work together. I've worked in multicultural teams, and the way the team is built into a unit is by getting to know the individuals over time. This process happens much more easily when everyone is in the same team room working together.
Something that many companies don't seem to consider when they send jobs to other countries, or split the work between different teams in different countries is that without the face to face interaction it's much harder to get to know the other people. These cultural problems would show up in reduced productivity. Rather than being worked out and adjusted for, cultural differences would have a real chance of becoming a serious issue. It might look tempting to companies to send work out to cheaper countries, but the costs can be accrued in other ways than in just salaries.
This is America, damnit. Speak Spanish!
Hasn't the tragedy of Tupac and Biggie taught the world anything? Eastside vs. Westside accomplishes nothing, homies!
Peace out!
Word...
- c -
...got a mirror?
Who cares, the point is that the guy is American so he is talking about the country he is from. Why is it every time someone mentions 'the west' and America every European jumps up and say you see, American are so self centered thinking they are the west. Seems to me Europeans have a confidence problem. Also last time I checked you're on the same fricken land mass 'the east' is on.
Half of Europe has. It's called alternatively 'old Europe', 'France', or 'having a different opinion'.
We have taken over a software project for the UK gov from another company.
The previous company appeared to be lost in touch with the requirements of the client. Althoguh they had a lot of good coders, things were not implemented to the clients liking. The greatest problem was that only the project managers maintained contact with the client.
Our policy on the other hand has greater client interaction at all levels. And despite the development team being a tenth of the size of the previous company, everyone gets involved, are creative in their solutions, and less time is wasted coding and then correcting irrelevent features.
If there is any greater case for NOT outsourcing software projects to offshore, our case is a good example.
Have a nice day!
Time in general has different values and meanings in different cultures. Time is spent on accomplishing tasks in individualistic countries, and on building relationships in more collectivist countries. Americans are seen to start meetings too abruptly by Europeans, and Americans find that Europeans dawdle in idle chat instead of "getting down to business."
,-}
Surely this is because the Europeans have had lunch, and are winding down for the day
Most of the article presents interesting concepts, but really. this is a generalisation too far.
$ strings FTP.EXE | grep Copyright
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California.
"East" and "West" are terrible descriptions. California is the most West, so it's kinda East. What about Hawaii? Australia? South Africa? The real difference is how old the society is. China has a very old society. So do Jews. Both societies are marked by lots of negotiation. Texas has a new society, as does Alaska, where individuals can get away with big moves. As societies gain collective experience, roles become established, forms have more persistence, communications are more complex and referential. While new societies take more risks, unencumbered by the lessons of past failures.
As "civilization" has generally moved West across Eurasia and the Americas, while largely surviving culturally in earlier establishments, the "East" (starting at the Asian Pacific coast) is older than the "West". Of course, major paradigm shifts and even genocides have distorted even that simple gradient. And the 20th Century's cataclysm migration and telecommunications means that the meme pool has a whirlpool, swirling the cultural codes around the globe. But actual mores are encoded deep. So there is a persistent ghost of the underlying gradient. Nowadays, individuals can choose how traditional or neo they want to be in their lives. And the lack of geographic rhyme and reason is making front lines of conflict everywhere, with new syntheses in every neighborhood. Let a thousand hydroponic flowers bloom!
--
make install -not war
It might mean people are reading the article before posting.
--- Ban humanity.
the submitter's name is "cowboyrobot"?!
are we going to hear a rebuttal now from "samurairobot"?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
is when the pompous-ass American programmer 100K-er turns up to direct 20 outsourced indian programmer 7K-ers and discovers that they don't tell him what is going on.
I wonder why?
In Western societies, decisions are made on the basis of input from those involved.
Wait...that sounds like a GOOD thing? GASP! You mean there's a tech article that points out a GOOD aspect of american society?! Excuse me while I wait for the end of the world to come in 5...4...3...2...1...
The correlation between culture (as defined in the article) and nationality is very, ver often exagerated. At least that is my experience, after having worked/studied in plenty of multinational environments and with people of multiple nationalities.
/.ers, for example, have a cultural outlook more similar to one another than to the average of his/her national peer. Same applies to many other online communities.
Stereotypes do apply, but anti-stereotypes are plenty, as well. You will find the organized Greek, the warm German, the shy Italian, the Brazilian who does not like soccer and the American who knows world geography.
I have experienced much more consistent cultural environments going from ony company (corporate culture) to another, than crossing national borders. I have seen corporate environments absorb various nationalities, even operating in different countries, and retaining its own (original) corporate culture. And I have seen, as well, plenty of cultural clashes and disagreement over world view within more than one country.
The internet makes the dissociation between nationality/geography and culture even starker.
Quem a paca cara compra, paca cara pagará.
There's another joke called "name a famous Belgian", the joke being that most people can't. And yes, I know, Rene Magritte, would be just one of many.
When I first started reading the article, I figured they were talking about New York versus California.
Never a truer word spoken about cultural differences.
"The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
hmmm....true, but I've never worked on a project with a Dutchman who bought the first round of drinks...
When bell atlantic combined with GTE to become verizon, the powerrs-that-be decided to make bell atlantic the "management" and replaced all the west coast GTE exec positions with BA people. The stodgy east coast guys were infuriated by the laid-back california work style, so they installed GPS transponders on all trucks and instituted random monitoring. Now if you stop to take a crap, they'll page you and demand to know what you're doing at a [gas station/restaurant/whatever] for more than a couple minutes. It's insane.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
India and China are VERY big places with MUCH diversity. But, I have developed some personal stereotypes based on experiences that I encounter time and time again.
Indians don't question authority, and actually have problems operating without it. They not only welcome being strictly regulated, they get stressed out in the absense of strict inflexible rules. The idea that one should question authority or make a decision that runs counter to what one has been told, never enters the thought process.
Chinese are trained to listen, not talk. The entire educational system is based on a one-way transfer of knowledge. The ideas of critical thinking and academic inquiry have to be LEARNED explicitly, and it seems to be the single greatest challenge for Chinese students in Western Universities.
Culture Surprises in Remote Software Development Teams
ACM Queue vol. 1, no. 9 - December/January 2003-2004
by Judith S. Olson, University of Michigan; Gary M. Olson, University of Michigan and Collaboratory for Research on Electronic Work
printer-friendly format
recommend to a colleague
sections in this article
1: You Can't Hide from Culture
2: Dimensions of Culture
3: Cultural Differences in Development Teams
4: Groupware and Cultural Differences
5: An Emerging Internet Culture
6: References
"When in Rome" doesn't help when your team crosses time zones--and your deadline doesn't.
You Can't Hide from Culture
Technology has made it possible for organizations to construct teams of people who are not in the same location, adopting what one company calls "virtual collocation."1 Worldwide groups of software developers, financial analysts, automobile designers, consultants, pricing analysts, and researchers are examples of teams that work together from disparate locations, using a variety of collaboration technologies that allow communication across space and time.
Although solving the problems of space and time is difficult, these are not the only issues. Work that takes place over long distances means that communication will often involve different cultures. Participants may be surprised by such interactions because they have not considered various cultural differences and how they impact the daily work of long-distance teams. Our own culture is invisible to us. "We don't see our own ways of doing things as conditioned in the cradle," writes Esther Wanning, author of Culture Shock! USA. "We see them as correct, and we conclude that people from other countries have grave failings."2
The goal of this article is to review various cultural differences likely to appear in the work setting and explore their implications for virtual collocation of software development teams. We begin with a definition of culture and various dimensions of cultural difference that have emerged. Then we examine two cases: (1) one in which the team members are collocated; and (2) one involving the team in virtual collocation. From this analysis we draw some practical implications.
CULTURE AND ITS DIMENSIONS
Larry Samovar and Richard Porter3 have defined culture as:
The deposit of knowledge, experience, beliefs, values, attitudes, meanings, hierarchies, religion, notions of time, roles, spatial relations, concepts of the universe, and material objects and possessions acquired by a group of people in the course of generations through individual and group striving.
Culture is acquired. It helps people categorize and predict their world by teaching them habits, rules, and expectations from the behavior of others. It helps people "read" the world's signals--the meaning of symbols of artifacts, gestures, and accoutrements of others.4 Culture also molds the way people think: what their motivations are, how they categorize things, what inference and decision procedures they use, and the basis on which they evaluate themselves.5 It sets the gestures, space, and timing of interactions.6
There are multiple kinds of culture: national, regional, occupational, organizational, avocational, and generational. Any of these might have important effects. Here we focus on national culture, assuming that knowing at least what a member of a culture shares with others is helpful in understanding how to interpret unusual behaviors. There are cultural explanations and new signals to read in understanding various interactions with people who are unlike oneself.
JUDITH S. OLSON is the Richard W. Pew professor of human computer interaction at the University of Michigan. She is a professor in the computer and information systems department of the business school and the school of information, as well as a professor of psychology. Her research focuses on how groups get their work done and how they feel about each other when they communicate over various digital media. S
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
Although there is some discussion of trust in the article, I am surprised that the authors did not make use of some sort of trust framework alongside Hoftstede and Hall. While I am not generally a big fan of Francis Fukuyama (who besides is infamously titled book "The End of History" has also written "Trust: The Social Virtues and the Creation of Prosperity") something like his high trust/low trust society framework might also inform a discussion of cross-cultural working groups, especially when it comes to discussion relationship and communications styles.
I've finally got around to changing my sig
Oops... forgot to do Anonymous...
Culture Surprises in Remote Software Development Teams
printer-friendly format
recommend to a colleague
sections in this article
1: You Can't Hide from Culture
2: Dimensions of Culture
3: Cultural Differences in Development Teams
4: Groupware and Cultural Differences
5: An Emerging Internet Culture
6: References
Dimensions of Culture
Social scientists have conducted extensive research on how cultures differ, the dimensions of importance, and the resulting clustering of similar and different countries. Geert Hofstede7 and Edward Hall8 are among the most prominent, developing ten dimensions on which they have found cultures to differ.
Hofstede's five dimensions, according to Erran Carmel,9 cofounder of the Global Intellectual Property Project at American University, are:
Revering hierarchy. What do people think about their relationships with supervisors and subordinates? Is there is a large gap or do managers expect subordinates to speak out? In Russia and China, rank and class are very important, whereas in the United States, Netherlands, and Germany they are less important.
Individualism versus collectivism. Is it the goal of individuals to enhance their own position or the advancement of the corporation or community? The United States and the Netherlands are very high on individualism, whereas China, West Africa, and Indonesia are collective.
Task- or relationship-focused. Is the goal to "take care of business" or to develop and maintain relationships or quality of life? Japan, Germany, and the United States are very high on task focus, whereas France, Russia, and the Netherlands are quality-of-life focused.
Risk avoidance. Do people want to control the inherent uncertainty of the world with rules, or can they handle the ambiguity and react flexibly? Japan and Russia are very high on risk avoidance, whereas the United States, India, and Hong Kong are more flexible in handling ambiguity.
Long-term orientation. What is the relative importance of here-and-now versus the future? China is very future-oriented, whereas Russia is focused on the here-and-now.
Hall's dimensions (again, taken from Carmel10):
Space. Natural social distances vary by culture. Americans have normal conversations at about two feet apart, whereas Arabs are more comfortable much closer. Japanese are very careful about where they sit, as seats connote rank and power; Americans sit wherever there is a seat available, frustrating the Japanese who misinterpret rank.
Material goods. How much status is conveyed by material possessions? U.S. managers battle to get the largest office and have expensive cars. Japanese managers have offices in the open office area; Danish CEOs are admired if they drive old, battered cars.
Friendship. In some cultures, like the United States, friends are transitory; people make and lose them frequently. In other cultures, like France, friendships and business relationships take a long time to develop, and people prefer to do business with those they know.
Time. Some cultures, like the United States, take time and deadlines very seriously. Others are more fluid in that they are more likely to conclude a conversation when it is finished, no matter how long it takes, and move to the next "appointment" when ready.
Agreement. Expressing disagreement and having formal contracts differ from culture to culture. Some deals conclude with a handshake; others require specific contracts. In some cultures, like the United States, disagreements are public, open debate. In Japan, disagreements are worked out one on one, with meetings used for ceremonial conclusions.
Hall summarizes a number of these dimensions as being either high- or low-context cultures. Low-context cultures spell out many things, saying them explicitly; in high-context cultures, many things are understood or inferred from power, status, or history. The United States is very low-context, missing things understood in high-context Japa
>You will find the organized Greek, the warm German, the shy Italian, the Brazilian who does not like soccer and the American who knows world geography...
Cultural Differences in Development Teams
Two classes of basic cultural differences may arise in multicultural teams, independent of setting: (1) Team composition--the members of the team, what motivates them, and how they develop trust in each other; and (2) Teamwork--ways in which the activity progresses, including the predilection for planning, the process and content of decision making, and the wish to take responsibility.
Team Composition. Suppose a team is collocated but its participants are from several national cultures. What issues might arise?
Serving on cross-cultural, short-term teams. The success of a mixed-culture team begins with the feelings people have about being members of a short-term team. In countries where relationships are well established and valued as the basis of actions, people might find it distressing to be put into a new group where you know no one and have no relationships to build upon.
Attribution of teammates. Work teams are often put together with two main purposes: to blend expertise and to allow more work to get done in a short amount of time. As a result, it is particularly important that teammates correctly perceive each other's abilities or traits (the European-American tendency) or their clan membership (the more Asian view). The core issue is how to distribute the work among the members and to engender trust in each other. The cues for the correct perception of trust from either abilities or membership come from first impressions of a person's attire, gestures, and so forth. Clearly, there is room for surprise and mis-attribution when people from different cultures meet.
For example, we saw mis-attribution in a multinational videoconference that introduced new development teammates to each other. Individuals naturally assessed teammates by their dress and posture. We believe that had the team members traveled to meet face to face, they would have attempted to dress appropriately to the location where the meeting took place, alleviating some of the wrong first impressions generated at this event.
Motivation. Individuals from different cultures are also likely to be motivated differently. In countries where individualism is valued, people seek material gain and personal recognition. Countries that emphasize the collective rather than the individual tend to value time for personal relations, family, and so forth, over material gain. For them the goal is to preserve social equilibrium, not to "rock the boat." And, for them the greatest punishment is ostracism. Team incentive systems should take these values into account, rewarding U.S. developers with money and French developers with time off.
Teamwork. These values and goals just outlined also drive some of the moment-by-moment activity of the group, once formed. They influence how people approach situations, whom they seek in decision making, and what their working style and expectations of others are. In addition, subtle differences exist in the microstructure of conversations--whether eyes meet while someone talks, and whether gestures and tone of voice convey additional cues that the listener is expected to pick up or not.
Planning the work. In more egalitarian countries where people are given choices, there is likely more need for individuals to "buy in" to the plan before they are motivated to work hard. In authoritarian cultures, plans are based more on political maneuvering than tasks.
Decision making. In some cultures, the past guides decisions. People make decisions on the basis of tradition or key stories of past wisdom.12 In other cultures, there are more material-based criteria, including the time/cost/quality trio stressed in Western management books. Some cultures focus on the present, looking for short-term solutions, and others focus on the long term, planning for a better future that they believe they can influence.
Argumentation styles also vary. In Western societies, decisions are made on the basis of input from those involved. Or, they g
Groupware and Cultural Differences
With the advent of reliable long-distance networking and technologies such as e-mail, fax, audio and video teleconferences, and IM (instant messaging), more and more organizations are using distributed teams. Various technologies may impact cultural differences, in some cases ameliorating them, and in others exacerbating them.
Realtime Groupware. Groupware comes in two varieties--realtime and asynchronous--and cultural issues play out differently in each type. First, we'll look at the impact of cultural differences on realtime groupware.
The basics: trust over distance. Central to the issue of constructing successful remote groups is the issue of remoteness itself. For countries like China, which are very loyal to the local extended family, people value without question the in-group and mistrust out-groups. In China, consummating a deal almost requires that the parties be co-present. Since in the United States and Europe group membership is more fluid and task-related, dealing with someone by post or telephone--someone you do not know or who is not part of your group--is more acceptable and natural.
Video- vs. audio-conferencing. When people can see and hear each other, they can send and receive gestural and tonal signals. High-context cultures convey much of their message through tone and gesture. For them, the video channel is important. If people are from different cultures, however, there are two effects: (1) the gestural signals could be misread; and (2) if most of the message is in the gesture and intonation, high-context people are differentially hindered if they are without video. Low-context people have the habit of explaining context and being detailed and explicit. They might be as well off in conveying their message in audio as video; high-context people are likely to be hindered without video.
In both audio and video teleconferences with cross-cultural teams, there is pressure to speak, often in a foreign language. Listeners for whom the conference is taking place in their native language can easily misinterpret the slowness of speech of the non-native participants as a measure of lower intelligence or lack of attention or enthusiasm. In this respect, IM offers a distinct advantage. The people who struggle to form grammatically correct sentences are better at writing them out at their own speed and sending them in one burst to be read at the reader's fast pace. This is preferable to producing words in realtime, which is often a struggle.
In some cultures, speaking softly is a way to show respect. In others, loud speech shows more confidence. Here's a case where technology can indeed help the situation, since it allows you to de-couple how loudly one speaks from how loudly one is heard by adjusting the gain and the speaker volume at the two sites. Thus, you can enhance the soft talker and turn down the volume on the loud talker.
Brainstorming and anonymity. Some new technologies allow people to offer their ideas by typing them into a computer anonymously. Research shows that these technologies provide two kinds of benefits: (1) People don't have to wait their turns to offer ideas because they can be generated in parallel; and (2) anonymity allows people to offer ideas without fear of retribution if the ideas are unpopular or considered stupid or ill-advised. Thus, more ideas are generated and they are better as a result.13
The question then is how these technologies would fare in hierarchical and non-egalitarian countries. It could be that because the ideas contributed are anonymous, the release from fear of retribution indeed enhances the benefits more than in countries whose culture is egalitarian to begin with. On the other hand, if people are not used to being asked for their ideas or opinions, this technology may not tap any extra intellectual resources.
Decision-support systems. The decision-support systems designed in the United States embody algorithms that fit egalitarian, democratic participation. T
For those browsing at 1 or higher...
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
Also found: the brave Frenchman, the Irish master chef, the lazy Japanese man, the Slashdotting mack daddy...
Comedy gold.
If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
Rene Magritte was Belgian?
Thank god for that. I was getting ready to burn all my Magritte prints in the expunging of all things French!
Norman Cook's Ode to Sl
Sorry, but you won't find a Brazilian who doesn't like soccer either.
Norman Cook's Ode to Sl
Stereotypes do apply, but anti-stereotypes are plenty, as well. You will find the organized Greek, the warm German, the shy Italian, the Brazilian who does not like soccer and the American who knows world geography.
:-p
Although not in the Whitehouse
Table-ized A.I.
[n/t]
Alas, I made the same assumption. Mind you, I'm brazilian and I have never worked in the USA.
(8-DCS)
And similarly, there is a great difference between Northern and Southern, West Coast and East Coast cultures: In the South, "Yankees" are viewed as pushy, rude, and cold, while Northerners view Southerners as ignorant, slow, and too informal. This comes down to Southern preference of wanting to take time to get to know the person they are working with- his viewpoints, his family, his work habits, while Northerners want to get the job done quickly and in the most efficient manner with the least amount of wasted energy. I come from the South, and my drawl has elicited a ton of stereotypes about Southerners- the most prevalent is that I am not knowledgable. My 2 cents
Republican leadership = Idiocracy
I think this comes from decision making.
In my experience there are two ways.
Western (Canada/US), get an idea, get some information, quicikly make a decision. Hopefully if it is wrong, someone points out the mistake before it gets too big.
Eastern (Japan), get a lot of information, make a good well documented decision. Pointing out mistakes means you think that their work in making the decision is wrong, likely you haven't done the same investigation.
When everyone makes off the cuff decisions, there is value to second guessing.
When someone takes a lot of time and energy to make the right decision, it is insulting to be constantly second guessed.
In Western societies, decisions are made on the basis of input from those involved. In cultures with greater hierarchies, group members assume an authority will decide and they are only to enact the decision."
The "West" is a complex, stratified society with more hierarchies than Chinese society for example, and these tend to be much more arbtrary -- 'race' for example. Caste and such in India are misunderstood as being the result of oppression, not differentiation of the means of production in agrarian societies. That oppression exists in caste-based societies is a fact. That it is the result of the very caste structure itself not the means of its control and manisfestation is what you can't get through to people. Anyhow, creative thinking is not the exclusive domain of "Western" culture. And assuming that it occurs on an individual level ignores socialization as a culural force.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
You don't need to compare East vs West to see this cultural divide. We have this all over the US too. Many have already mentioned the differences between West Coast and East Coast but also look at North vs South.
The rank / trust system was very common throughout this entire country before the 60's. It's still prevalent in the deep South today.
I wonder if this behavior is in any way related to family upbringing? Those in more rigid and structure households (where everyone has a role and is depended on to fill that role) are more likely to trust their superiors in a professional environment. This theory could be supported by recruiting statistics, by region, of the US Armed Forces.
On the flip side - those with a loose family structure, where each member is more independent, are more likely to distrust.
The article's defintion of culture is a good one, but there are others that are broader and others more narrow. But it does the job.
But nationality is an administrative designation. I am a US national because I carry such documentation (ID, Passport, and, most importantly, voter's registration). National identity is a different thing. I would define it (ex Benedict Anderson/Eric Hobsbawm)/Richard Jenkins) as personal duty and subservience to an imagined, but not imaginary, community.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
When I first started reading the article, I figured they were talking about New York versus California.
Once again, leaving out my native Chicago and the rest of the midwest. *sigh* We don't get no respect. There's more than cornfields between the Hudson and Vegas, folks!
--GrouchoMarx
Card-carrying member of the EFF, FSF, and ACLU. Are you?
Self-selected groups, like corporations and blogs, have more selfconsistent cultures than groups selected by criteria other than culture, like countries.
--
make install -not war
Any insights on the relative productivity of the different contributions? Were those who spoke up often buried in backbiting, while the Chinese moved steadily towards results? Did the messy criticisms keep the group on track as conditions shifted, while the Chinese marched into the weeds?
--
make install -not war
Yes. There are also silos where they put the corn.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
there's an old joke about the "perfect European" being a Belgian...
Or the old heaven/hell joke:
Heaven:
Mechanics - German
Chefs - French
Lovers - Italian
Police - English
and the Swiss organize everything
Hell
Mechanics - French
Chefs - English
Lovers - Swiss
Police - German
and the Italians organize everyting
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
So then what does psychology teach us?
That the Boss who thinks he is being disrespected because his employees speak up is treating those employees like objects, not people of equal status.
And the employee is well within their right to speak up. Every employee relies on their company to make the right decisions to keep them employeed. Some are even share holders. So they have a right to make sure the company is making the right decisions and getting the right feedback.
If management feels uncomfortable or disrespected, perhaps they should, and perhaps they should remove themselves from management since they seem to have a hard time doing a good job at it. Management is about communicating effectively and getting accurate feedback from all aspects of your business! How can you manage if you are not informed?
So if we study psychology it tells us that we are a product of our environment. This environment include our daily interactions. To be the most productive we need to create a comfortable environment that promotes communication and cooperation. One where the skilled employees train the new hires and the management listens to everyones feedback and encourages everyone to think about their jobs and how to improve efficiency, increase revenues, become more competitive, etc.
We are, afterall, working for eachother. Even if some of us think we only work for the money and for ourselves.
I thought the article was going to be about AT&T/Sys5 culture vs BSD...
- Serge
What's the difference between heaven and hell?
In heaven, you have British cops, French chefs, German mechanics, Swiss organizers, and Italian lovers.
In hell, you have British chefs, French mechanics, German cops, Italian organizers, and Swiss lovers.
For what it's worth, the biggest laugh I've seen anyone get out of that joke (I think it was in The Economist years ago) was the president of Hasselblad Engineering. But I think that's the only European I've ever told the joke.
cragen
Western societies, decisions are made on the basis of input from those involved
I think this varies a lot. Different software development teams I have been involved with have done this very differently.
This is kind of like the Rebels vs. Darth Vader arguement of governing philosophies. Having a massive senate and everyone argue and discuss decisions is great in some areas but can be slow to the point of never getting anything done. Darth on the other hand can simply make it so.
While I think the massive input is good in stopping really bad decisions from happening it is also bad at stopping really good decisions from happening because not all involved might understand why said decision is good or for some other agenda stop it. This is very similar to what happens in Open Source vs. Proprietary Software.
So while both systems of governance suck, the arguement/not get a whole lot done seems to suit me best. As far as software development arguements can be made for both.
So I think in government what keeps the "rebel model" from failing in the U.S. is the much forgotten Judicial branch. Yes they are the Darth's of the Rebels for they can say make it so.
So in Open Source Software I don't think we have the needed Darth's. Although some of the big boys like Red Hat and HP are kind of stepping into this role. If they are good Darth's it might work...
Well shit, I'm Japanese, and I'm reading Slashdot... scratch one off your list!
:D
I'd say more, but I'm late for school
It's simply stating the cultural differences that do exist. There are advantages and disadvantages to the approaches innate in each culture. It would seem that the American culture is better suited to innovation and creativity, but that other cultures are better suited to precision and perfection. Both are important in the development of technology.
This didn't say they cannot think for themselves, rather that they defer to authority, and in many situations, that's a good thing. Conversely it seems to suggest that Americans don't have much appreciation for structure, heirarchy and procedure, and that might explain why some software is as flaky as it is even if it is innovative.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Why? Does a company really give a shit about you? And how much pride can you take in driving a truck around? More importantly, how does taking a crap constitute not orking hard?
A blog about stuff.
"In Western societies, decisions are made on the basis of input from those involved. In cultures with greater hierarchies, group members assume an authority will decide and they are only to enact the decision."
Is it just me, or didn't America invent the term "Corporate America" to describe the bureaucracy and politics of the working environment?
Honestly, I'd LIKE to think that it's common that in Western societies (well, just speaking about America since I'm not familiar with working conditions in Europe), work "together". My working experience has been mixed, but for the most part I think hierarchy is still alive in the American workplace.
Ideally, I could tell my boss that it would be best to do this thing that way and that thing this way, and once in a while I'm listened to. But, quite often, I'm given this attitude like "i'm the boss and you're the worker so do what I say". Didn't we invent this?
I suppose it might be worse in eastern cultures (or non-Western ones) but I hardly think corporate America is as ideal as the above comment painted.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
The difficulty of having Asian parents while growing up in an entirely American culture has been pretty evident... it's slightly different for every Asian-American, but from my experience and all my cousins (yes, all 15-20 of them) there's always been culture shock when it comes to girlfriends, spouses (don't get married 'til you're 28!), life decisions (you should be a doctor or a lawyer -- although at the time, software engineer was a respectable decision), and general parental control of your life. :-) Ask any Asian-American that grew up here about it, and chances are they've also been torn between the clear individualistic culture here and the clear group-oriented culture their parents came from and raised them to be.
And precious few books have been written about the subject, too... but that's starting to change. The Joy Luck Club was a start.
-Rob
Marriage doesn't have to suck!
Oh heck, that's easy. We just put the French in charge of security, the Germans in charge of entertainment, the Italians in charge of sensitivity training, the Spanish in charge of production and sent the British out to bring back lunch.
I expect everything's going to be just fine.
KFG
Your response reminds me of the divide I had at my first company between the west coast offices and the east coast offices. I wonder if that, too, had something to do with the difference in mentality (west coasters vs east coasters).
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
I have worked with a few folks from India in my current position, and found that it is very important to draw them out and get their ideas. Initially, my suggestions were taken as direction and followed to the letter. While this is nice for my ego, it was not preferred. It is very rare that one person's idea is the best solution and is important to solicite other's opinions. On the other hand, it was nice to not have to argue about every little nit-picky thing too.
An interesting aspect that came out of this was the changes in the India nationals. The longer they were here, the more outspoken they become, and the better the teams began to operate. As it became apparent that their input was welcome, the suggestions stayed suggestions and when conflicting priorities came up, they were discussed and comprises were worked out. It became a much healthier environment, less re-work was done, and project items were done in better sequence.
I often wondered what difficulties arose when they finally went back to India. Did their new American-learned personality changes create problems, or were they quicly un-learned?
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
If you're working hard when having a crap try eating more fibre.
Today's London Headline:
"Channel Socked In: Continent Isolated."
Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
The importance of discipline and obedience as the basis of leadership can never be stressed and emphasized enough. That is why Eastern cultures are so efficient: they don't waste energy on squabbles and whining.
Heavy authority tends to work well for relatively simple tasks, but seems to falter for more complex tasks that need a lot of interaction and multiple brains contributing and keeping each other in check intellectually-wise.
"Squabbles and whining" might be irritating to some, but to others it is merely another form of communication. If it gets out of hand, then is the time for the authority figure to mediate.
Table-ized A.I.
In Western societies, people make decisions based on what advertisers tell them to do.
Four fifths of all our troubles in this life would disappear if we would just sit down and keep still. -C. Coolidge
I'm Brazilian, and I definitively don't like soccer.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
The article doesn't talk about people moving to countries with different cultures and adapting to the culture of that country. Indians working in the US may behave slightly differently than Indians in India.
Well, its not so far from the truth. considering that almost every Western European country has invaded at some point in the past what is now known as Belgium, your average Belgian is probably quite some crossbreed. Let's see: - France - ask Napoleon - The Netherlands - Spain - duc of Alva - Italy - the romans - Nordic countries - the vikings - Germany - WW 1 + 2 - Austria - the habsburgers I'm probably forgetting a couple...
The issue is more complex than this. You break down a broader philisophical notion of: When does life begin and how valuable is it? into an only religious context. For some discussions, this is fine since religion is one of the few feilds that societies seem comfortable in discussing morality. However, this issue goes further than this.
The West has a cultural memory of WWII. Part of this legacy is the idea of Eugenics, championed by Those Guys Who Lost. They did some of the original work on cloning, and selectivity in people. In fact, the believed that some sub-groups of humanity were intrinsically better than others. When we research cloning and embryo modification, these issues become important because it will ulimately allow people to make decisions on which traits propogate. Thinking about this before the genie is out of the bottle shows amazing restraint and forsight. Honestly, it is hard to beleive that anyone could be against contemplation and rational discussion before fundamental changing the human condition.
In the east, less prohibitions against eugenics exist. Again, this arises from many aspects of the cultures, and not mere religion. At a small level, this is evidenced by gender selection. Several asian countries have practiced eugenics, in that a gender was selected for, to such an extent that the male/female ratio is not 50/50. This is known to such an extent that even Newsweek had a recent article on this topic. Furthermore, taboos about favoring race tend to be less prevelent than western culture. This lack of social stigma to racial favortism and genetic selection allows this type of research to progress. This has little to do with seeing the future for what it is, or any greater mission of free flowing ideas.
Ultimately, will the world be a better place as stem cell research increases? Honestly, I don't know, but then again, neither does anyone else. Blaming any restraint on persuing this science is larger than the trite case of "religion bad, science good." Larger issues are at stake, and need to be taken in total context of where the human entity is as a people, and were we want to be.
my two cents,
-Iowa
"He who laughs last, didn't get the joke."-Cap
I've read/heard that joke many times. Usually some European discussing differences in Europe. The telling I've heard most has involved just the police, chefs and engineers (English, French, German).
Being a big fan of cycling and former fan of F1, I have to say that your version of Italian organizers would seem to hold true. Every year, the Giro looks like it's a brand new spectacle. For racing, the Italian teams seem to hold a monopoly on the term "there is confusion in the pits."
Not to criticize too sharply. What they seem to lack in organization they make up for with panache.
t
As an Indian who has worked in USA and Canada in addition to India, my experience about leadership is as follows.
0. The zeroth law. Anyone who has power will use it to protect his/her position. Principles, morals and ethics be damned. CYA is the best policy.
1. There is a streak of authoritarianism in almost every boss, however, there are subtle differences.
2. I couldn't access the article linked to above because of heavy traffic, but the line in the introduction that I didn't like was that in West this happens and in east that happens.
In my experience in India, the people who were involved were almost always consulted. I distinctly remember one obnoxious person who told me to code an entire system in 4 days. I am sure you (whether in East or West) can find similar examples.
Easterness and westernness is irrelevant to assholiness.
3. Indian and US bosses are more direct and more explicit. Canadians beat about the bush. To say "rake the leaves", Indians and Americans will say exactly so. The Canadians will say "The Fall has come a bit early this time."
This is stupid, needless, redundant and time-wasting sophistication.
4. We Indians criticize ourselves a lot. There are so many things wrong in our country (although in the recent past things have started to change). We are acutely conscious of this and know that each of us contributes to whatever's that's wrong and right.
So it is a sort of rule in Indian offices to criticize and make fun of the boss behind his/her back. The boss knows that too.
By contrast in Canada, I noticed two trends:
(a) The Canadians born and brought-up in Canada may criticize the boss vehemently amongst themselves, but when it comes to interacting with immigrants, they almost gang up and use very bland and inane language to describe a boss's shortcomings.
(b) No Canadian wants to be caught dead criticizing the top boss. We openly used to make fun of the CEO even. Infact, I'd even go so far as to say that Canadians almost want to be seen worshipping the top boss and singing paeans of him.
It is disgusting.
In my opinion, in general, there's more democracy in Indian and American workplaces than in Canadian.
They all live together in an underground bunker, and every night go out and fight crime!
- The Amazina Llama
I've only been traveling outside the US for a couple of years (mostly to Europe, but one trip to Hong Kong with the boyfriend). The article alludes to the Culture Shock series of books. I find them very helpful and recommend them very highly for both work and personal culture explanations.
Culture Shock Books from B&N
Herge?
Dang, that's harsh. My dad spent 30 years with GTE and left just prior to the merger. They never really made much of an effort to conceal the number of trucks that were always parked at the local donut shop. I think the feeling was that as long as there were fewer phone trucks than CHP cruisers there, you were ok.
I have an interesting kneejerk reaction for an American, I stick up for the French. Perhaps this is influenced by living not too many doors down from the Marquis de Lafayette's local residence during the Revolution combined with childhood heros including Georges Guynemer and Roland Garros; not to mention possible bias from being able to trace my father's family back to Louis X (Ok, such a bad king that encyclopedias go staight from Louis IX to Louis XI) and hence back to Hugh Capet ( a cutthroat, but hey, a successful one).
The French has always had a reputation for being among the bravest of the brave (ok, so sometimes they were bravest when following behind a teenage girl, but we'll overlook that). Nor have they had any traditional reputation as loosers ( and when they did lose you could count on the fact that the winner was going to pay dearly).
Google on Verdun. In WWI Germany decided they were going to win the war by "bleeding France white." And they did. What they didn't count on was that France could bleed white and remain standing.
Verdun did not fall.
What the French have, as a culture, is a sense of the gallant. The problem here is that the ultimate in gallantry is to go down fighting for a noble cause. The role model is Roland, dying while defending the pass (as it is for the Greeks if it comes to that. The battle at Thermopolyae is one of the most remarkable events in military history).
Alain Prost once noted the irony that he was vilified in France while he was winning in a French car, but became a national hero when he started coming in second in an Italian car.
The point being that the French car was superiour. Almost not winning in a superiour car is the inferiour performance from the point of view of the gallant. Almost, but not quite, winning in an inferiour car is glorious. A Pomeranian taking it to a German Shepard, and going down in defeat, but in the process leaving the Shepard so bloodied that it must retire from the field and seek the ICU.
It isn't even fair to say the French like losing. Jacques Anquitil is a French God. He was a winner, but he won with guts and spirit. Raymond Poulidor is also a French God although he was the perenial bridesmaid to a Belgian, but pushed the Belgian all the way, with guts and spirit even though the cause was laregley hopeless.
To the Frenchman it's the spirit that counts more than the end result.
Elan!
And in WWII there were an awful lot of dead Germans as the result of brave Frenchman refusing to give up the fight just because their government did.
KFG
aren't you a resilient stalker?
;-)
h5n1, my socially damaged friend, h5n1
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I lived in Europe for 4 years, been to Asia, the Middle East, and Latin America. Each one of those places is fairly singular in their culture.
Anyone thinking of Europe as one place with one culture have no clue what they're talking about. I hear a lot of Americans say something about how Europeans are, and it's invariably exactly right about some parts, and completely wrong about others.
The continent is 50 different countries with vastly different cultures, and there is not a single thing you can say that is "typically European" that is not completely wrong regarding a few of them. Well, you can say things like "all Europeans enjoy soccer but not peanut butter", but that is really pointing out unique things about the US, not anything about Europe other than that it's not the US.
I shouldn't theorize, but I suspect you're a victim of the same phenomenon that makes people think all people of a different race than what you're used to seeing all look the same, while in your 'home race' every person looks distinctly individual. A very normal reaction that there's nothing wrong with, but it can help to be aware of it and try to compensate.
You're perfectly right about the huge diversity of the US population, but the European population, taken as a whole, is much more diverse.
Since you wonder: I'm a Swede living in California.
Not to mention the South, or the Southwest, or the Rocky Mountain states...of course this is all referred to by the derogatory term known as "fly-over country".
I say, let 'em call us "fly-over country" all they want, just as long as they keep flying, and don't land here.
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
There's also a Japanese version of the joke.
In the best of all possible worlds, we live in American houses, eat Chinese food, and have Japanese wives.
In the worst of all possible worlds, we live in Japanese houses, eat British food, and have American wives.
On a more positive note, I have become a fluent speaker of "franglais"...
Anyhow, creative thinking is not the exclusive domain of "Western" culture. And assuming that it occurs on an individual level ignores socialization as a culural force.
I agree it's not exclusive to western culture, but it is encouraged more the western cultures. The message is constantly sent to "be different, be an individual" which in some people trends to - don't believe what others say, think for yourself. So the west gets a broad range of stuff like the iPod and great monolithic companies built around original cores of creative ideas, like giant oysters trying to get the perl as big as possible before they are processed into soup.
I think it's a shift of a probability curve as to percentages of creative people generated by a society.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I've met tons of warm Germans.
I've never met a shy Italian though.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Surely the greater cultural difference is between the management types (and wannabees) and those of us who would rather do than oversee. I've worked in several cross-cultural associations (I'd hate to try to think of them as organizations) where the H-1Bs got along fine until they learned to ask questions. Then the fireworks started.
The biggest cross-cultural chaos was a global Oracle integration where managers demanded almost 150 privilege levels (the most stringent for "Eastern" DB input) but couldn't agree on the type of data Bangkok would put into a field specced in New Jersey. And who fought the hardest over what Bangkok would do? Plant managers 20 miles apart in Pennsylvania. That project went many $$$M over budget.
My biggest difficulty with cross cultural organizations is the racial and gender biases. "Western" managers can be intimidated into being polite to women and African-Americans under an implied threat of lawsuits. No such inhibition exists for the manager (or wannabe!) from India or Russia. Cultural norms must reward male prerogative excessively, because I've never seen a mixed-gender work group get past it, long distance or under the same roof. Usually I have been the one let go (their loss), but the cost to the project is demoralization of the "what's the use" sort, especially, I hear later, from younger work groups. Brown-skinned managers dissing darker-skinned cubies has the same effect. Besides the legal implications, the social skills are very different from European or Corporate American management types.
Have you spoken with an Indian IT recruiter lately? The job shops have picked up a whole lot of stranded H-1Bs. The problem with accent, especially over a cell phone connection, is terrible. This AM one hung up on me when I asked him to repeat something I couldn't understand. He wasn't the first, either.
This article suggests to me that a market could exist for a game that is used as a training tool.
The game would resemble existing strategy/RPG/text adventure games but take into account cultural differences as a major part of the game.
IANAGD(I Am Not A Game Designer) but perhaps various companies would compete for some goal. The project would be so large that multiple corporations and multiple companies must cooperate (while also competing). The creation of a space elevator might be an example.
The player could play an American tossed into, say a French company, or an Indian subcontractor to an American company.
Early levels would train them how their supposed culture thinks. They would work at the home office for a while. Then in upper levels they would be transfered to the foreign team.
Instead of scoring being based on straight quest accomplishments or accumulation of salary/bonuses you could score points based on how true the player is to his role as well as how well he still manages to fit in with the foreign co-workers.
I would guess this could be done in a similiar way to alignments are done in NetHack (Good/Evil Chaotic/Lawful).
A nice feature would be to change the actual goals of the players depending on what company/culture he works for. (Accumulation of wealth, accumulation of respect, helping the group gets you more points, buying a BMW/porsche gets you more points etc.)
This would help teach, for example, an American what an Indian or French worker must feel like when they have to work with Americans if he plays it as one of those nationalities being sent to America.
The game could be marketed to Human Resource Departments. Companies whose employees played the game would become more flexible in working with overseas/outsourced groups. Employees better at working with foreign groups would be more marketable.
P.S. I am sure that you would not be able to call the American cultural simulations "Americans". Any game would have to oversimplify cultural differences and play into stereotypes. This would lead to charges of racism and fascism and a bunch of other -isms.
The best way around this would be to set it in some Science Fiction scenario (far future or alien society) where the various cultures happen to act in ways that could be mapped to egalitarian/hierarchical pushy&loud/quiet&subtle clannish/indivdualistic or various other cultural factors.
Not surprisingly, military organization has probably changed less than almost any other over the last couple thousand years. I feel quite sure that a modern sargent could adjust fairly easily to leading a similarly-sized group of Roman legionaires.
OTOH, there are certain tasks that businesses need to undertake for which this type of organization is absolutely miserable -- think most forms of research. Back in the 1970s and 1980s, IBM was famous for the regimentation of its sales and support engineers. Everyone wore a blue suit and white shirt, and did things the "IBM way". But up at the Watson Research Center, the people creating the next generation of products came to work in shorts and sandals if they felt like it. IBM "got it" that they needed both types of individuals to be successful. Of course, they didn't mix the two very often.
About 10 or 15 years ago this realisation happened in what's called "Crew/Cockpit Resource Management". The aviation industry was based on the american culture, and applied around the world without consideration for the differences in cultures.
The examples given always included the fact that a japanese copilot would rather die than tell the captain s/he is making a mistake...
Or at least, all generalities about "cultural differences" need to be checked against the individuals in question. Making assumptions based on imputed culture is roughly equivalent to racism/sexism/you-name-it-ism.
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
while Northerners view Southerners as ignorant, slow, and too informal.
Popular media loves to trash Southerners and Southern culture. Just watch a few episodes of "Family Guy" to see evidence of it. Seeing Southern characters on shows such as "CSI: Miami" that are not a.) inbred, b.) stupid, c.) uneducated, d.) racist, e.) emotionally unstable is a new and welcome change.
Basically, it's completely politically correct to portray Southerners as people who meet any of the negative stereotypes above. Not only is it politically correct, but it is self-perpetuating. So many Americans (not just yankees) are so sold on the Southern=Stupid media image that they like seeing it even more.
If you're like most Americans, the people on Jerry Springer with Southern accents are the ones you remember. It's not that every stupid piece of human filth that deigns embarrass their family's honor by appearing on that sorry excuse for entertainment is Southern. It's rather that your brain probably registers them more clearly becuase it already fits in with the well-crafted and oft-repeated media image.
I would love, for once, to see "Family Guy" or "The Simpsons" address the issue of union corruption. That's something we don't get down here in the South -- namely because we don't have all that many Unions.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
Or the differences between our US division and our German corporate masters. Talk about culture shock!
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Indians don't question authority???? Which Indians are you talking about?
Indians have problems operating without it??? India is the only place where one can flout all the rules all the time in the world.
Next time go to India before making a comment.
Vancouver truly is the most diverse city I have ever been in. I have done a good amount of traveling throughout Europe, Mexico and the US, and I have never seen more different cultures represented in such a small place
There are a lot of similarities to the origins of the diversity of both countries - the size of the landmass, and the lack of historic culture (due to both countries being so 'young'); the difference (and the reason that Canada is more diverse than the US) is that the US is a melting pot, and Canada is multicultural.
The difference is subtle, but important.. both recognise the different cultures of their immigrants, but in the US, immigrants are expected to become Americans first, and everything else second, while Canada places a higher emphasis on an immigrant's culture.
You obviously don't see the same things I see.
Proverbs 21:19
What about cultural differences between developers in the Middle East and the Middle West?
cpeterso
California may be incredibly diverse racially, ethnically, religiously, and so forth, but try coming to the Midwest, the South, or the Intermountain West. Most of the United States' diversity is heavily concentrated on the East and West Coasts and a few major metropolises in between.
My hometown, St. Louis, Missouri, which once had the highest percentage of residents born abroad, now has a pretty low immigrant population and has small (but growing) Asian- and Hispanic-American communities. You'll rarely hear a language other than English spoken on the street here.
Don't get stuck assuming how things are in California or New York are true for the whole country: That's a cultural problem within our own country!
On vit, on code et puis on meurt.
I would agree with your statement, except for the fact that World War II was fought by everybody. Even if you ignore the other countries involved you have the Navajo running communications, every color imaginable in the infantry.
I will admit I do prefer to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and I always judge them after I get to know them. Of course there are preconceived notions but I will not let them interfere with meeting someone new.
Maybe I'm a lot more rare than I think, I know not everyone agrees with me and that's quite alright, what I like and hate about freedom of speech.
Do you work for my company?
... needless to say I'm trying to figure out other options. Ideas?
No, seriously, a similar thing is going on with my company, except replace "Indians" with Chinese. I get along with my co-workers just fine and everything, but it is a very different atmosphere. My direct boss, however, is Chinese, and he is very much of the attitude of hours-logged equals work done. But I guess he's different in that he is fervently hard-working also. It's irritating, really. And then our President (an Indian, yes) would make his own 7 PM rounds and stress how we had to put in 10 hour days minimum (I'm QA).
What irritates me, of course, is that I'm fine staying if I've got to, but mandating this sort of timeline is just aggravating. If I've got other things, and don't have much work I want to leave without feeling like a criminal.
It's a hellish job
The internet makes the dissociation between nationality/geography and culture even starker. /.ers, for example, have a cultural outlook more similar to one another than to the average of his/her national peer. Same applies to many other online communities.
Sorry, not I. I think different.
On vit, on code et puis on meurt.
There is a difference between saying that people should be innovative and encouraging individuality, which leads to thinking "against the grain". Creativity limited by going along with the party line (which is true of china today) is not as powerful, as has been demonstrated in the reality we all live in by the flow of ideas and products. More American movies are pirated in China than the other way around (Shaolin soccer being an exception). Creativity and individuality together can complement each other.
Again, it's a matter of percentages. I'm not saying that China has no creative free-thinking independant people. I'm saying the percentage seems to be a lot smaller and giving a reason why. I'm not even saying that's bad, one way or the other.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Reading your recent posts, I have reached the conclusion that you are a tool. So even if Magritte was French, how would that make him responsible for the recent unpleasantness between the French and US governments? Guilty by nationality? How long has Magritte been dead now? Idiot.
...the rover was aiming for orbit.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
Okay, I'm the tool. I mistook you for someone else with a different posting history -- please accept my apologies. I now see (or at least hope) that the Magritte thing was a joke.
This reminds me of when I used to work in a supermarket in a conservative Midwestern city. One of my duties was to send Western Union money transfers, and since I was the only person who could speak Spanish in the entire city (I'm kidding, but only a little), soon we had a huge Mexican clientele who were sending money back home.
The particular store in which I worked was very busy and it was interesting how differently Americans and Mexicans saw the wait and transaction. If I was busy, the Mexicans customers generally waited very patiently, while Americans would interrupt while I was talking on the phone or talking to other customers.
Mexicans are very relationship-oriented compared to Americans and very formal. This is how a typical transaction would go:
Me: Hi, good afternoon?
Customer: Hello, how are you today?
Me: Pretty good, thanks, how can I help you?
Customer: And how's your wife?
Me: She's okay, will you be sending money today?
Customer: And how are your children?
Me: They're great, would you like to fill out the Western Union form?
Customer: Are your parents well?
Me: They're doing well, here's a pen.
Customer: Have you been really busy today?
Me: So-so. How much will you be sending?
Customer: The weather's been nice; not too hot; not too cold. Just right.
And so on. The big problem was the twenty or so American customers who had gathered, and were waiting very impatiently for service. Since they couldn't speak Spanish, the Americans just figured that I'm was jacking around with my Mexican pals and couldn't tell that I was desperately trying to move the situation along. The Mexicans thought that I was being rude and abrupt.
It's easier to wear the spandex than to do the crunches. --David Lee Roth
Since some PC wanker modded my post Troll, we're basically in our private conversation. What do you think? That I don't read www.ireland.com daily? That I haven't been home in 20 years (I'm home 2 weeks a year)? That I don't talk to my friends & family weekly? (Using SKYPE to avoid the Eircom & France Telecom Highway Robbery). No, I know what it's like. It sucks less, but it still sucks.
Yeah, but but we gotta figgure out how to get those Oranges and peaches from the east coast, and all the fruit they grow in California to us here in the midde, even after we cut them out of good meat and bread.
Looking at that again, I think they are already preparing themselves. Vegitarinism is most popular on the coast, and with the popularity of low-carb diets, they can live without us already. Looks like I'm gonna have to figgure out how to live without my daily 5 servings of fruit.
Ever consider that Verizon's biggest problem isn't that techs aren't working fast enough, it's that the management laid off most everyone with more than 20 years field experience (salaries too high) and then didn't hire anyone to fill the gaps? Or that Verizon techs here in Cali work just as hard as the ones in NY, but they've never had to blow sunshine up management's ass ("shakin' the tree boss!") like they do back east, making the boss think you're doing three people's worth of work (even though you're doing "only" 1.5 people's worth) so he doesn't try to squeeze more out of you? Or that sometimes one must take a crap, GPS be damned?
Your questions are irrelevant anyway, as it happens, because I don't work for Verizon. I work for a private interconnect installing inside infrastructure for phone and data. I just come into contact with a lot of Verizon techs.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
There is no such thing as the Eastern way. What people are calling East is authoratarianism. It may be popular in the East now (due to things likes dictatorships, kleptocracies, totalitarian communism, etc) but it was not always like this--just like how Europe wasn't always as liberal and free-wheeling as now.
You like authoratarianism. I personally detest it. I think it is a horrible way to do things. Authoratarianism stifles creativity and weakens the human soul. If your goal is for all of us to be automatons that take orders from someone who takes orders from someone above, and so forth, then your vision is good. I, on the other hand, does not want a society like that. Your vision will lead to more efficiency--that's true. But it will also decrease harmony. Living will amount to slavery.
As far as the military is concerned, I think your way of thinking will lose out in the long term. THe military is perhaps the most authoratarian entity in any society. It is like this because it hasn't changed much since its early days. I, however, think it will change. Soldiers will one day be allowed more freedom. When that happens, there will be more ways of doing things--instead of just following the single way that has been handed down.
The problem with any authoratarian system, apart from its lack of freedom, is that there is only ONE way of doing things: the way of the leader. The guy at the top devises the plan and everyone else just follows it blindly. This is very efficient but can lead to massive problems. If someone makes a mistake along the way, everyone falls for it. People along the chain won't have the opportunity to correct it. I'm oversimplifying a bit but that's the essence of it. If your military commander devises some attack and some guy further down the chain seems potential problems, his opinions are limited. You just pass on your commander's order to your subordinate, and your subordinate passes the command to his subordinates, and so forth. There is very little room for corrections. You might call this second-guessing but multiple people thinking is better than one person--under any circumstance (unless time is limited or something).
The most extreme form of authoratarianism is totalitarianism. The so-called Commmunist countries tried it. The whole society in USSR, for example, was organized under an authoratarian framework. Some guy at the top came up with the plans, then everyone below just followed it. There was little room for corrections, questions, or just plain dissent. This led to massive problems, including millions of deaths in China. In one famous case in USSR, the government somehow managed to dry a full lake with its great plan (I forget the details but it's pretty much an empty land with no water right now).
I'm sure the "mistakes" in militaries have been even greater. But since there is no "accountability" in militaries, you just never know. By accountability, I refer to the fact that someone is not going to get fired even if they lose say 100 soldiers instead of 50. I don't know much about military (you are a greater expert than me) but wouldn't things be better if lower level soldiers had greater input into the situation? I think it will eventually happen whether you believe it or not. Once upon a time, workers had very little input when working at corporations. Over time, it has changed. There is still a long way to go but companies actually listen to the workers now. Fifty years ago, a factor worker just did his/her job. Now, the factor worker can suggest things if it will improve productivity. The same thing will happen to the military.
As far as you not hiring non-military candidates is concerned, it is probably discrimination. In any case, you are excluding a huge chunk of potential candidates. You support an authoratarian environment so I don't think it will change. But all I can say is that you will end up with a company full of mindless yes-men. They will nod your head and say 'yes' to everything. This is fine if you just want orders carried out without any change. But what if there are mistakes? What if the people at the top make mistakes? You will end up with all the mistakes being carried through... just like the USSR.
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
You will find the ... American who knows world geography
Maybe I'm just a dumb American but even I know where your head is.
why run from Vincenzo?
Not only is Canada the right answer here, but the model of Canada's diversity and multiculturalism (at least since Pierre Elliot Trudeau) is very different from what the USA diversity is.
...etc. is valued, and no "conformance" is required. The different small dots of varying color all come together to form a very nice coloful whole.
In the USA, it is the "melting pot" model. After a while the immigrant is expected to blend in and assimilate/integrate. (Much like the French view it with all the noise about religious symbols and such over there now).
In Canada, it is the "mosaic" model, where difference in culture, religion, customs,
"Being Canadian" does mean the same thing as "being American"
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning.
"..hierarchies, group members assume an authority will decide and they are only to enact the decision."
Ah, it *is* about culture whether east/west, poor communities or class conflict-oblivious communities like parts of Silicon Valley. Wherever tech & culture collimate it's ultimately about code.
So question what that authority is and how it delivers. In the case of Microshit culture, "will decide" really means "deciding for shrinkwrapped license users", initially omitting details about software products and withholding source code.
"enact the decision". In a truly collaborative and competitive network of communities several people may engage or enact the project at hand provided tiers of centralized control exist and are independently accountable. At present software development is still pretty much a monopoly; a series of shell games with the hubris "start your own business" while nearly everyone, even most geeks, are too poor to do this or are looking for more innovative ways to get paid besides by way of self-employment.
America and most of the world hasn't made it to the stage of collaborative enterprise yet because there's still too much corrupted code and corrupted due diligence. Hey, *I'm* optimistic. At least *I'm* realistic and don't try to sell or write crapcode like public class-only C#/.Net.
Did you put that link in your signature as a joke?
I'm serious as a heart attack.
They list "Inventing the AIDS virus" as evidence!
It's clear that you think this is outrageous, yet you can't seem to engage your brain enough to tell me why. Your outrage will consistently fail to convince me or make me shut up.
It's by that crackpot Peter Duesberg
Ad hominem.
who claims the real cause of the syndrome is the "risky" lifestyle of homosexuals...
As a gay man, I will unashamedly and bluntly state that the life of a circut party queen is high-risk. The amount of drugs consumed by those fuck-ups can not be good for the body. Did you actually read Duesberg's claims, or did you incorrectly assume that he argued that all homosexuals inherently led a high-risk lifestyle?
Furthermore, John Gallo, in an initial response to Duesberg's claims, claimed that there are no cofactors to AIDS, and that HIV alone was sufficient. Later, he reversed his position, claiming that there were cofactors. He claimed that there was no way that the cofactors alone could not cause AIDS, but provided no evidence to support that claim.
Now, would you care to turn on your brain and have a discussion on this issue? Your other tactic is NOT going to be effective with me.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
The Terror War, like the Drug War, is designed to extract the maximum money and liberty from the American public, and transfer it to the security apparatus: Departments of Justice and Defense. They also cover global agression to expand multinational corporate extraction of same, under media cover. They are good examples of why sensible people recognize that war itself is the enemy. Unfortunately, it seems to me that the damage of these wars is cumulative, in their effect on global popular support of America as a whole. This is why we who are free are relying more than ever on people around the world to transcend national boundaries, and seek friends and allies in liberty. I am hopeful that the P2P nature of modern communications offers a tremendous advantage against the naturally central forces of tyranny. Use it or lose it.
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make install -not war
Thread is long dead, but interesting and insightful post.
If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.