Apple Releases Safari 1.2 and Java 1.4.2

smithk writes "Apple has released Safari 1.2 and Java 1.4.2. Panther owners only. Some new features of Safari include full keyboard access for navigation, download resume, support for LiveConnect, and support for personal certificate authentication. Also, web site compatibility has been improved." Available, as usual, via Software Update.

Comments

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[Anonymous Coward]

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once again

[ministerofsickeningr]

apple continuing the march of leaving older hardware and software users out in the cold. their life cycle was one of the best in the industry, i hope this decreased timeline for upgrade viability isnt an indicator of things to come..

Re:once again

[ch0ke]

Safari 1.2 will run on any hardware that Panther runs on. A welcomed speed increase on my friend's Graphite iBook @ 366 mhz.

Re:once again

[ToddWDraper]

Theree is a version available for Jaguar as well as the Panther version. Apple has cleverly hidden it on the Safari download page.

Re:once again

[NetJunkie]

No there isn't. Look again. The only thing for 10.2 is v1.0. They even have a link to buy Panther next to the download options.

Re:once again

[Trillan]

They don't really have that much choice in this case. There were a lot of fixes to Core Graphics and other frameworks of Panther (little things like text not rendering properly). I don't think it's at all realistic for Apple to back-port those fixes to Jaguar. And without them, Safari 1.1 and 1.2 would look terrible.

Re:once again

[tyrione]

That has nothing to do with Hardware requirements.

So yes your G3 B&W will run Safari 1.2 with the current Operating System, Panther--OS X 10.3.x.

Welcome to Reality. Safari utilizes more and more Cocoa which has been pushed into the forefront and Carbon into the recesses as it should be.

OS X 10.4 and beyond will be even more Cocoa only.

Run KDE 3.2 on anything less than an i686 compliant based version of Linux and guess what?

It won't run.

Update your Operating System.

I hate to disappoint everyone but Apple put themselves on hold for 5 years to make Carbon run in OS X.

But since 1997 the plan has and continues to be OS X Cocoa which will benefit everyone.

Re:once again

[agent dero]

Just remember, MacOS 9 stll works JUST fine on older hardware; even macOS 8. Apple intended to make the switch to the 'new-world' mac's with MacOS 10.

Don't gripe about older hardware support; it's just like the move from 16 bit to 32 bit; or from 68K macs to PPC. It's part of the companies views and goals. Change hurts, get over not being able to support MacOS X on NuBus, or early G3's.

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

Run KDE 3.2 on anything less than an i686 compliant based version of Linux and guess what?

It won't run.


Yeah, but I won't pay $130 to update it.

But since 1997 the plan has and continues to be OS X Cocoa which will benefit everyone.


Except the people who are going to have to fork over cash.

Re:once again

[Selecter]

Dood. Your old hardware is worth anywhere from 3 to 5 X what the same PC hardware is worth. Check Ebay if you dont believe me. You can still get 300 bucks for a clean well maintained B & W G3 300. You MIGHT get 65 bucks for the closest = PC.

Please remember this as you whine. I quit crying and started buying. It's a brave new 64 bit Mac world out there. Wait until after the next speed bump then buy yourself a Dual 1.8. By then they should be what a 1.6 Single costs today.

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but I won't pay $130 to update it.

Then you don't get the free web browser that Apple graciously supplies for users of their current operating system.

It's simple. If you don't want to pay for what they're offering, that's your call. But you can't complain that you don't get the perks.

Where does your sense of entitlement come from?

Re:once again

[rmull]

Where won't kde run? I imagine it runs pretty much anywhere there's QT and X. While I don't disagree with the principle of technology advancement, there are certainly desktops which don't require a new OS as well.

Re:once again

[DLWormwood]

hate to disappoint everyone but Apple put themselves on hold for 5 years to make Carbon run in OS X.

Balderdash. The delays were mostly due to Apple abandoning NuKernel/Copland in favor of Mach-O, and also due to introducing a sub-layer based on BSD. These have nothing to do with programming APIs. Also, you need to understand that much of Carbon is based on concepts that never existed under the classic Mac Toolbox, like Carbon Events.

But since 1997 the plan has and continues to be OS X Cocoa which will benefit everyone.

Then explain Apple's continued support for QuickTime... the QuickTime API's are heavily dependant upon conventions introduced during the Mac Toolbox era. OS X also exposes BSD/POSIX, Java and X-Windows APIs for application development, all of which are orthagonal to Cocoa. Even AppleScript Studio relegates Cocoa to the sidelines as "glue." Importantly, Carbon is the best way to get procedural-level programming support under native OS X APIs. Procedural conventions tend to be easier to work with than object-oriented designs when targeting for cross-platform development, especially when trying to write code that targets both Windows and Macs. (Though one can argue this is as much a fault of Microsoft's design than OOP's limitations.)

Based on past discussions I've had and read, the advocacy that Cocoa seems to get arises from a confusion between Carbon/Cocoa and CFM/MachO. A Carbon application linked using MachO is just as much a native OS X citizen as a Cocoa app would be. Under the hood, parts of Cocoa are implemented as wrappers to Carbon functionality, and vice versa.

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee, do you think that's because Apple was 2 years behind in CPU development until recently?

Historically, Mac stuff has held it's value slightly better than PCs -- but for the last few years the value of old Macs has been grossly inflated due to the relative crappyness of new Macs.

As soon as the G5 filters down to somewhat affordable boxes, G3s will be worth $75 just like the old PCs.

Re:once again

[hayds]

Have you used Panther?? If you have you should know to just plonk down the cash and stop complaining.

Being able to use the latest Safari isnt the only advantage you know. Its faster, has way more useful features, works WAY better in mixed environments, and its reasonably priced. In short, its well worth the money.

Obviously if you are using hardware that is so old that its not supported you're SOL. But in that case from what Ive heard you're better off sticking with OS9 anyway because OSX runs like a pig.

Re:once again

[tyrione]

I won't debate Copland or Taligent. That was exhausted back in 1997 during the merger.

Apple has Politically maneuvered themselves to make sure as many popular APIs are available for OS X, to build a user base.

Does that mean these APIs won't get folded into ObjC equivalents?

The wrapping of ObjC to Carbon and vice versa is analogous to the Java Bridge between ObjC and Java NeXT developed during the WebObjects transition from ObjC to Java.

The decision to focus ObjC on the desktop and not on the AppServer has been one that bit Apple in the ass and they know it.

The advantages were removed from their products.

This is all from one who had to support WOF and Openstep.

Exposing APIs that market segments have wanted is a smart maneuver.

MVC Paradigm is at the very core of OS X. Linking to MachO was necessary because the OS was slow when all the Carbon/BlueBox/Classic layers were added.

Over time you will see OS X improve due to more Cocoa integration (new Finder being one example) and moreso. The latest Dev examples should show you how much the underpinnings of Cocoa are in Carbon now.

No one is saying ObjC is better than C++ or vice versa.

POSIX Compliance is necessary if one wants to work within the Federal Markets. And that's smart since the Feds have deep pocketbooks.

There were tons of APIs at Apple and NeXT that still aren't nailed down but are slowly morphing into a coherent structure that we'll all benefit from.

The biggest complaint people have about Objective-C is the syntax. Those complaints come from folks who haven't even scratched Cocoa's surface.

The corporations who whined won back in 1998--Adobe, Microsoft, Quark, Macromedia and a few others demanded Carbon.

Now that Microsoft is focused on .NET and C# don't think Apple hasn't noticed and don't think each revision comes with more and more Cocoa Examples for Developers to learn and leverage.

Its quite clear the folks in Engineering were smart enough to take the best of all their APIs and are broadening them under a common umbrella.

Let's just see exactly what happens by OS XI.

For now Apple has done a fine job abstracting its APIs enough to make Carbon a First Class Citizen in most senses due to duplicating efforts and coding time just so that the OS doesn't slow down. Since ObjC is only a superset of C it and interoperates with C++ you'd think people would welcome the advantages it offers when needed?

Re:once again

[cr0z01d]

IANAAD: I am not an Apple developer.

Cocoa, Carbon, etc. aren't really orthogonal. Cocoa relies on BSD, Mach and Carbon. Carbon relies on Cocoa, BSD, and Mach. The reliance is decreasing, if you look at how menus work you'll see a good example.

Think of Carbon and Cocoa as just two ways to access the (mostly) same UI elements. The only difference is that it's a real pain in the ass to write anything in Carbon. I've written a few things in Carbon and a few in Cocoa. Programming in Cocoa is beautiful and fast, at least for something that was wedged sideways into C. And Cocoa's got a lot more thread safety than Carbon. Look at the Carbon docs, tons of functions either must be called by the main thread or aren't reentrant. I think people writing Mach-O apps in Carbon are either lazy, stubborn, or masochists. I write Carbon, but only when I need compatability with the systems of yore.

It took Apple time to put both Carbon and Cocoa in OS X. Cocoa ran on Mach already, but Apple wanted UI elements from Carbon. So in the beginning, they changed Cocoa so that it looked and felt like a Mac, and the changed Carbon so that it ran on systems that used real virtual memory.

Gotta love real virtual memory.

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

The wrapping of ObjC to Carbon and vice versa is analogous to the Java Bridge between ObjC and Java NeXT developed during the WebObjects transition from ObjC to Java.
Cocoa and Carbon both sit on top of CoreFoundation and ApplicationServices. They are not wrapped to each other, they just use the same frameworks.

The decision to focus ObjC on the desktop and not on the AppServer has been one that bit Apple in the ass and they know it.
What?

The advantages were removed from their products.
Like... ??? At best it took Carbon a while to support services. Apple directly says not to use PDO; to use Apple Events or sockets instead.

MVC Paradigm is at the very core of OS X. Linking to MachO was necessary because the OS was slow when all the Carbon/BlueBox/Classic layers were added.
Eh? Mach supports host OSes. BSD is one of them; Mac OS 9 is another. Carbon is just an API, not a layer. MVC is a development style, not something core to Cocoa.

Over time you will see OS X improve due to more Cocoa integration (new Finder being one example) and moreso. The latest Dev examples should show you how much the underpinnings of Cocoa are in Carbon now.
Now you're talking out of your ass. The new Finder is not new, it's just got a stupid textured window. It's still written in PowerPlant. It is not linked to Cocoa at all.

% otool -L /System/Library/CoreServices/Finder.app/Contents/M acOS/Finder | grep /Cocoa.framework
% otool -L /System/Library/CoreServices/Finder.app/Contents/M acOS/Finder | grep /AppKit.framework
% otool -L /System/Library/CoreServices/Finder.app/Contents/M acOS/Finder | grep /Foundation.framework
% otool -L /System/Library/CoreServices/Finder.app/Contents/M acOS/Finder | grep /PowerPlant.framework
/System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/PowerPlant.frame work/Versions/A/PowerPlant (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 76.0.0)
% otool -L /System/Library/CoreServices/Finder.app/Contents/M acOS/Finder | grep Carbon.framework
/System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versio ns/A/Carbon (compatibility version 2.0.0, current version 128.0.0)
% otool -L

Carbon's an API from the original Mac OS that was first modernized to be re-entrant. Then Apple started adding features to an API that the old management team declared dead since Taligent began, and continued with OpenDoc/ODF.

POSIX Compliance is necessary if one wants to work within the Federal Markets. And that's smart since the Feds have deep pocketbooks.
No, POSIX is necessary because no one is going to use your non-Unix if it isn't compatible with POSIX (non-POSIX == not Unix). Even Linux implements POSIX. BSD 4.4 Lite and NeXT did not. NeXT didn't support it because they didn't have the money or the time. Hell, it had cthreads instead of pthreads, which every other OS implements. Do you expect anyone to write custom threading code for Mac OS X?

There are now two major OSes on the planent. Win32 and POSIX. It would be stupid for Apple to not implement POSIX.

The corporations who whined won back in 1998--Adobe, Microsoft, Quark, Macromedia and a few others demanded Carbon.
No, Carbon (a procedural API) wasn't part of Rhapsody because Gill Amelio was an idiot. Porting from one object oriented framework (say, MFC) to another (say, Java or Cocoa) is, as Steve Jobs described it, like climbing down one 10 story building and climbing up another for everything you need to implement. Porting from one OOP framework and implementing it on another platform requires implementing the backend of the framework on the other OS (sa

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

> Run KDE 3.2 on anything less than an i686 compliant based version of Linux and guess what?
> It won't run.

Are you saying that you need to compile your kernel for i686 for KDE 3.2 to run?

> Update your Operating System.

I'd love to, but I don't have 149 euro to spare at the moment (that's over $180 at the current rates!). I can afford a few bucks for a new Linux CD. That's why my Linux system is up to date while my OS X system is not.

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

There were a lot of fixes to Core Graphics and other frameworks of Panther (little things like text not rendering properly). I don't think it's at all realistic for Apple to back-port those fixes to Jaguar.

So you're saying that I have to pay $129 to get these bugfixes? (Ok, and some new features that I may or may not care for.)

Re:once again

[Trillan]

I should think that's obvious by now -- yes, you do. Luckily, you're unlikely to run into them in other applications. It has to do with the way Safari has to patch into Core Graphics to perform drawing. It's at a much lower level than most applications.

Personally, I just bought the Panther upgrade for iChat AV ($30 alone), FileVault, and Expose. Expose, the new application switcher and the type-select menus alone were worth the cost of the upgrade for me.

But you can wait as long as you want before upgrading. Maybe 10.4 will be more exciting for you. There's no need to get every system release unless you really want something out of it. I don't think anyone can ever really argue they "need" something out of a Mac OS X release, since they obviously had the previous version and survived somehow without the feature.

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck yeah. Mod that AC up. Gotta love it when some self important buzzword baiter gets hoisted to the poopdeck by a AC that knows his shit. All you other buzzword baiters that get your kicks on flyin the /. astral plane take notice. Some AC may rat you out to be a know nothing fuck someday. Act accordingly and mind yer own bis snatch.

Re:once again

[tyrione]

By the way, NeXT did support POSIX, but that required a specific support contract, so no it did not support POSIX, out-of-the-box but for Fed clients who demanded it we put it in.

I was there at Apple when the decisions were made.

Steve was asked by Fred Anderson what would it take to have you come back as CEO, because Gil is ignoring your advice and we are afraid with only 3 months of money left the company will fold?

Steve wanted an interim title and the opportunity to build a new board of directors.

He then made a decision to settle the Microsoft dispute and bury the hatchet, once and for all. That came down to private meetings.

Avie, Bertrand Serlet and others were holding high level meetings with third party developers as I've hinted at to convince them to use Cocoa and they informed them that would set them back years and there had to be a better way.

Back to Engineering and several weeks of brainstorming the teams decided to take the massive amounts of Procedural APIs and wittle it down to a reasonble number that they could then leverage the bulk of the legacy support and mesh them, over time with the future direction of Application Development grounded in Objective-C's Foundation and AppKit APIs.

CoreFoundation was born along with countless other APIs for cross pollination.

Gil Amelio saw the power of Cocoa and like anyone who hasn't developed much just thought it could Presto! change everything overnight. He was more than happy to dump the past and launch into the future with a new set of APIs that had nearly a decade of development already invested in them--Openstep.

No one at NeXT was thrilled with Java--they got it almost right is what the usual comments were up to "If only Sun would ever 'get' objects."

Java tries to be the best of both C++ and ObjC and misses on both but gee like any language if you don't get broad adoption it is perceived as being an inferior choice.

No one from the NeXT encampment has ever "wanted" to port Apps using Procedural APIs, unless you count the Quartz group which wrote Quartz and they wrote WindowServer.app in C. Just ask Andrew Barnes or Peter Graffanino how many lines of C are in Quartz or how many were in Openstep's WindowServer.app.

The languages used within OS X are chosen when it makes the most sense both technically and politically.

BeOS died because its founder's arrogance was greater than the technologies the company could offer Apple. The man wanted > $100Million and a top spot back at Apple. He was concerned about himself, first and foremost. The cost of NeXT exactly paid off the debts NeXT owed to Canon and other investors. Steve made nothing out of the deal and was reluctant to even come onboard, hence his original role as a consultant. He was concerned that the 300 plus NeXT employees were still gainfully employed and that our stock options would be honored, which they were.

The best day I remember was when Steve cancelled Sabbaticals and all those that were hanging around for their 3 month Sabbaticals all quit and stated the only reason they were here was for the 3 free months of pay. As I stated earlier Apple only had 3 months of money and paying for 1/3 of the Corporate Staff to sit on their rears and have a long vacation just wasn't gonna cut it.

Smart Politics, Outstanding Vision, Compassion for the Company as a whole and other attributes is what makes Steven P. Jobs the best person and only person that could have and has save Apple Computer Inc, from oblivion.

Fred Anderson is right up there, in my book, as one of the most able and intelligent executives I as a peon got to talk with and work for.

Apple just keeps getting stronger and stronger and if I recall thats what we want from Her.

Re:once again

[AKnightCowboy]

As soon as the G5 filters down to somewhat affordable boxes, G3s will be worth $75 just like the old PCs.

Well, don't forget the G3s were 2-3 times more than the equivalent PC at the time. It stands to reason they'd still cost 2-3 times as much.

Re:once again

[pvera]

It is not free, it is a bundle. That is why only people that paid for Panther are entitled to get it.

One of the reasons I did not complain about the $130 bump to Panther is that it came with a few things that, to me, made it worth it. Expose, iChatAV, and the newer Mail.app are three things I would have gladly paid extra, so in my personal situation the jump to 10.3 was maybe $50 and the other $80 was on the extra apps.

I will gladly pay the yearly $130 if it means I don't have to put up with the hassle of keeping windows running. I just reinstalled Panther on my Titanium Powerbook 867 and I probably spent more time copying my back up files than what it took me to do the clean install (I had used the upgrade option first). I did not even have to reinstall most of my software.

Re:once again

[X_Caffeine]

By the same logic, I hope you won't chew out web developers who don't bother proofing their pages for Safari 1.2 compatibility because they no longer feel like paying the annual Appletax.

Re:once again

[MochaMan]

I would say that if you're a web developer who can't afford a $130 OS upgrade, then you've probably got bigger issues with your business than which browser you're testing with. ;)

Re:once again

[Pendersempai]

By all means don't test your web pages for Safari compatibility. All I ask is standard HTML.

Re:once again

[inertia187]

You have a point. I remember that it took many months for ThinkGeek to finally support Safari. They even had an obnoxious message for Safari users telling them they were sorry for the difficulty, and to use some other browser for the time being.

But some of those developers paid the $3000 and went to WWDC and got Panther for free (along with iSight).

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

CoreFoundation was born along with countless other APIs for cross pollination

No, Chris Kane said himself that CoreFoundation was just extracted from Foundation.framework. Many people were bitching that OS X is so slow because of CoreFoundation. Take a look at the code and you'll see how old it is. Apple didn't add svr4 and hpux support to CoreFoundation just for Mac OS X. That code is carried from old ports of NeXT to other oses. Take a look at CFFileUtilities.c; it specifically mentions "The Solaris and HPUX code has not been updated for..."

unless you count the Quartz group which wrote Quartz and they wrote WindowServer.app in C. Just ask Andrew Barnes or Peter Graffanino how many lines of C are in Quartz or how many were in Openstep's WindowServer.app

OpenStep used Display Postscript, which was implemented by Adobe, I assume, not anyone at NeXT. Quartz uses code from QuickDraw GX, which is why it is written in C.

No one at NeXT was thrilled with Java--they got it almost right is what the usual comments were up to "If only Sun would ever 'get' objects."

No old-school programmer is thrilled with Java. Java is sun's attempt to replace OpenStep on Solaris with an API they own. Get everything ported to Java, and people wouldn't need Windows, but Solaris with custom Java CPUs would be the market demand. It didn't materialize because Java sucks. They included networking in the framework, and as such it became the standard for network programming (what other cross platform framework includes networking? None. You used BSD sockets on NeXT)

.

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

i sold my 350 g4 on ebay for $400 in july

Re:once again

[jazuki]

Steve was asked by Fred Anderson what would it take to have you come back as CEO, because Gil is ignoring your advice and we are afraid with only 3 months of money left the company will fold? [tyrione]

3 months of money left? I wasn't aware that Apple was burning cash at over 12-16 billion dollars a year at the time, the rate they would have to be going to burn through the at least 3-4 billion dollars they had in cash and short term investments. (They may have had even more than that, but it was at least that.) In fact, there were jokes at the time about how someone should buy Apple just for its cash because it's market cap had dropped to about two and a half billion.

This was the time when Michael Dell commented that Apple should liquidate and return the cash to its shareholders, and Larry Ellison threatened to put together a hostile takeover.

While some of the other stuff you say makes sense, this one is pretty silly.

Re:once again

[andy55]

bravo.

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for that. I was going to pipe up with it myself. Amelio and Anderson deserve credit for that one, with judicious asset sales and the convertible debenture issue. They raised a lot of cash. Plus, Amelio may not have been much of a programmer, but he was an Accomplished EE (from Georgia Tech). Supposedly he made a ton of money on patents for VCR components he designed.

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm still using my P2 350.

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, there may have been some Enron-type accounting going on at Apple back then. Not all of that "cash" was necessary "cash".

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but even the mega-expensive PCs like IBM Intellistations are under $100.

Also, the moderators on apple.slashdot are Steve Job's ass-licking faggots.

Re:once again

[prockcore]

Welcome to Reality. Safari utilizes more and more Cocoa which has been pushed into the forefront and Carbon into the recesses as it should be.

Are we sure about this? Apple seems to be purposely bolting software to Panther.

xCode and X11 were both beta tested on Jaguar, but when they were released, they required Panther. If Panther was really a requirement for either of those products, then wasn't all the beta testing completely worthless?

Either that, or Apple purposely required Panther in order to get people to upgrade.

Who's to say that Safari 1.2's reliance on Panther isn't arbitrary as well? Only Apple knows.. that's the price of closed source.

Re:once again

[prockcore]

By all means don't test your web pages for Safari compatibility. All I ask is standard HTML.

Then don't be suprised to see things act quirky under safari.

Safari still has stupid bugs.. like if this textarea I'm typing in had less than 4 rows, safari would never draw scrollbars on it, regardless of how much text I typed.

Stuff needs to be tested in as many browsers as possible. Because they don't all render identically.

Re:once again

[prockcore]

Have you used Panther?? If you have you should know to just plonk down the cash and stop complaining.

That's right.. don't question The Great Leader. Just give him your money.

Because after all, Apple can nickel and dime you to death, and it's OK simply because they're not named "Microsoft".

Re:once again

[hayds]

I'm not saying give 'The Great Leader' your money because hes 'The Great Leader'. I'm saying that I find Panther to be a brilliant piece of software without which my job would be much harder if not impossible. And its reasonably priced.

As a web programmer and linux consultant, I find that its fast, stable, efficient, runs commercial apps such as Dreamweaver and Photoshop, runs open source apps such as Apache and Postgres, offers me all the powerful tools available on unix systems and plays nicely with my clients' Windows environments. There is no other OS that gives me all of this. I used to dual boot Debian / WinXP and it was a royal pain in the ass, I spent most of my time rebooting. On top of all of this, you get a whole whack of great software like iTunes and Safari in the box.

So if you feel there's no value in it and you would be just giving your money to The Great Leader for no reason then by all means keep your cash, keep Jaguar but dont complain. All I'm saying is that if you want the new features in Panther, whether they be the faster, improved GUI, improved printing, improved Samba, new Safari, etc then $130 is a very reasonable price to pay. They cant spend a year working on stuff and give it to you for free you know.....

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

They even have a link to buy Panther next to the download options.

I've had less hard-sell from a Washington hooker.

I have .3 but won't use it - not after all the scare stories. There was no innovation - just change, and mostly for the worse.

Re:once again

[rixstep]

Safari utilizes more and more Cocoa which has been pushed into the forefront and Carbon into the recesses as it should be.

You mind telling the rest of us exactly what was Carbonised in Safari? Aside from the framework calls which are not at all the same thing?

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

Wormwood, there's a four-letter word and you're full of it.

NeXTSTEP could have gone out the door from Cupertino in no time flat. It's supporting all these MacTwits and Birkenstock idiots with their old fat binary machines that took so long.

NeXTSTEP _was_ a portable platform. It was all over the place. And it never took six years to get out a door.

That can only have happened in Cupertino.

Finally, Carbon and Cocoa are _not_ the same thing. Carbon apps look shitty.

Geez, you could be a software engineer with some experience in the field before you open your big stupid mouth?

Yeah, I guess that would be asking a lot...

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

and if I recall thats what we want from Her

'Her'? Who's 'Her'?

Re:once again

[rixstep]

MacOS 9 stll works JUST fine

Someone please mod this to 'Funny'. They can keep the 5.

Re:once again

[777333ddd]

According to this S&P report: Apple balance sheet

At the close of 1996, AAPL had 1.7 billion is cash. And unlike today, AAPL had about 1 billion in debt plus other liabilities. And S&P indicated that 5 months later (May 5, 1997), Apple's net cash position was $374 million after "net losses of more than $1.6 billion over the past 18 months".

So I'd say that the situation was pretty dire. Maybe AAPL could have kept burning through their cash for longer than 3 months, but it doesn't look like they could have lasted more than 1 year. Three months of life before financial collapse looks entirely possible. Something had to be done in the summer of 1997 or Apple would have been toast.

Steve Jobs did an absolutely amazing job saving this company.

d

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm, what's a "type-select menu"? I have Panther, but haven't heard of this, at least by that name.

Re:once again

[Pendersempai]

Then don't be suprised to see things act quirky under safari.

I won't be surprised. I'll send a bug report to Apple, telling them that your page doesn't display correctly. Ideally, everyone else will be doing the same, and having the same problems on a lot of standard HTML pages. Then Apple would fix their browser, and we'd be much better off than if every webmaster individually wrote nonstandard HTML to circumvent the bugs.

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

i only sold it because i needed to a create DVD video job which was to be burned to DVD and need a g4 with dvd burner. do that on your p2 350 and get back to me.

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

furthermore, lets see you get $400 bucks for it

Re:once again

[Trillan]

I've never seen it documented anywhere... I found it by mistake.

Click on a long menu. It doesn't matter if it is from the menu bar or a popup menu. Start typing the name of the item you want to select. Hit Return when it selects the right one.

It's only of so-so use out of the menu bar, but for things like country or font popups it's a godsend.

Re:once again

[jo_ham]

I have the image of a cartoon bomb imprinted on the back of my retinas like screen burn.

OS 9 went down like a cheap whore with a dodgy back.

Re:once again

[jo_ham]

Mate, I was doing pro video production on a 9600/300 last year.

That's a pre-G3 box, producing material you'd buy on DVD or see on Network TV (although generally we produced for people like Sainsbury's, Wal-Mart etc).

Old time Macs are worth their weight in gold.

That's not to say I'd rather work on that old 9600 than the Dual G5 we just bought...

Re:once again

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a brave new 64 bit Mac world out there.

Well, no, it isn't actually. Unless you're installing Linux on your Macs, the code you're running, including your operating system, is about 99% 32-bit. I wouldn't call that a 64-bit world.

Re:once again

[RockClimbingFool]

Why is the parent post modded as troll? From the looks of this recent update, Apple seems to be only releasing software updates if you are running the absolute latest and greatest version of OS X. This is a forced upgrade scheme, pure and simple, which is the point the parent was trying to make.

Re:once again

[RockClimbingFool]

you are absolutely correct. but don't say such things around the mac zealots here. everything that comes from jobs is gold and should be accepted without question.

Don't forget PithHelmet..

[E1ven]

The best utility for Safari.. Content Filtering.

PithHelmet really is a necessary tool, for Anyone who wants to filter content, not just advertisements, but cookies, and everything.

Version Tracker comments reveal that it does work on 1.2, but not out of the box. Just change the MaxVersion in the pList.

Crimped from the comments there-

If you use PithHelmet and have updated to Safari 1.2 you'll notice it doesnt work. Here is the fix that should work until PH gets a proper update.
open /Library/Application Support/SIMBL/Plugins/
Right click (control+click) PithHelmet.bundle and select "show package contents"
Open the info.plist file in either BBEdit or Property List Editor if you have the dev tools installed
Find where it says MaxSafariBundleVersion and change the value to 125
Save and restart safari. thats it, now it works.

If you need to install 0.7.2 fresh on a box with Safari 1.2 already on it, you'll need to do the following:

1. Download and open the PithHelmet folder
2. Navigate to the Packages subfolder
3. Right-click (ctrl-click yadda yadda) the PithHelmet.pkg file and select "Show Package Contents"
4. Navigate into the Contents/Resources subfolder
5. Open the file InstallationCheck in a text editor (I used TextEdit)
6. Chage the string 100 in the line:

exit((1 6) | (1 5) | 16) if ($1 != 100);

to 125 and save the file.
7. Install as usual by running the regular PithHelmet.mpkg package

Re:Don't forget PithHelmet..

[epsilon720]

I followed the directions given here for installing PithHelmet on Safari v125. It seems to install ok, although I did end up having to use Pacifist. However, when I start Safari, it tells me that that this version of PithHelmet is untested with Safari v125 and won't run. It is installed; it shows up in the Safari preferences. It just checks the Safari version when it loads too. It seems like cool software, but I think I'll wait until they have an official patch out, unless there are any other suggestions here of what to do.

Re:Don't forget PithHelmet..

[E1ven]

Follow the set of instructions for "If PithHelmet is already installed" as well.
It should work after you follow both sets.

-Colin

Re:Don't forget PithHelmet..

[Jon Abbott]

The official release of PithHelmet now supports Safari 1.2... Download here. If you like the software, please donate to him.

Re:Don't forget PithHelmet..

[bedouin]

You also might want to check out Privoxy. A new version, including one for OS X was released two days ago. I've been running it on my home network ever since it replaced the Junkbuster project. Install it on one network machine (perhaps a web, or mail server) and all your network's compuers have ad/pop up filtering, plus it can do caching with Squid.

First POst

[Anonymous Coward]

With OmniWeb too! :D

Penis kissing

[Anonymous Coward]

Gotta love it

Re:Penis kissing

[enormouspenis]

Thank you

resumable downloads and liveconnect!!!

[johnjosephbachir]

these two features have been annoyingly absent from safari since it came out and now they are finally here.

i wonder if/when the liveconnect code will trickle back up to konqueror (or is that where it came from in the first place? does konqueror have liveconnect now?)

Re:resumable downloads and liveconnect!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell is LiveConnect?

Re:resumable downloads and liveconnect!!!

[johnjosephbachir]

this is LiveConnect I'm actually not totally familiar with its history but i know it's used by the Flash plugin to be able to talk to browser windows. Does anyone have any good examples of where it is useful for Java applets or anywhere else?

Re:resumable downloads and liveconnect!!!

[RalphBNumbers]

Well, for instance, unsigned Java applets don't let you save any data on a client, but with javascript you can save cookies, so you can use this to make persistent prefrences for a java applet across sessions on the same machine via cookies.

I have an applet I was looking at writing something along those lines for, but alot of my target users were on macs, where liveconnect support is somewhat lacking (mozilla and camino theoretically have it but it was broken on mac last time I checked, safari didn't have it 'til now, etc).

Now that safari supports liveconnect I may actually bother adding that cookie-prefs feature.
This is a nifty step forward.

Re:resumable downloads and liveconnect!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

LiveConnect is the only reliable way I figured out how to give a Java applet the keyboard focus on page load. It's also used commonly to control media players and flash programs from browser windows.

It's also useful in conjunction with DHTML: I had this one applet that let you choose a particular room from a number of buildings. First, you select a building, either from a <select> or from a map (map is java applet). Then some DHTML to show the next select menu which allows you to choose a floor, or you click on the floor in a plan of the building. Finally, you select a room from the final drop-down or click on it in the architectural plan (if you know the room's rather obscure "code", you can just enter that and skip the whole process, or you look it up manually if you don't have neither Javascript/DHTML nor Java). LiveConnect was used to keep the two in sync.

Basically, LiveConnect lets plugins (Java, Flash) call Javascript methods and vice-versa. This makes a lot of creative stuff possible - you can move some programs that you would have to code in a traditional client-side language onto the web in a reasonably portable fashion (HTML, JavaScript and Java/Flash, no ActiveX or Mozilla Chrome).

AFAIK, Safari 1.2 is the first Mac browser since Netscape 4.7 to implement LiveConnect. LiveConnect is underutilized enough that I never really cared from a user standpoint, but was mildly annoyed from a developer standpoint.

Re:resumable downloads and liveconnect!!!

[Sonic McTails]

If I remember, Netscape 4 for Mac had this (although I'm not sure if it made it into Mozilla, or Netscape 6). It appears that IE for Windows has it.I am pretty sure LaunchCast uses it as it did some weird things with the windows.

Re:resumable downloads and liveconnect!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

https://www.hushmail.com relies extensively on LiveConnect for encrypting/decrypting email and attachments.

Re:resumable downloads and liveconnect!!!

[Gorimek]

I have an applet that would benefit a lot by being able to read and write some very simple cookies. If you can point me to any tutorial, sample code, or other resource explaining how to do that it would be appreciated!

Re:resumable downloads and liveconnect!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

just google for something like "java javascript cookies"

Re:resumable downloads and liveconnect!!!

[Ilgaz]

If I remember, Netscape 4 for Mac had this (although I'm not sure if it made it into Mozilla, or Netscape 6).

No sadly it didn't

Also Safari needs lots of publicity to get accepted in such sites

Re:resumable downloads and liveconnect!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I used the java-javascript bridge once to create a text annotation web app. A java applet would launch with the text in it, the user would select a range of text, and then click a link, the javascript behind the link would call on the java applet and retrieve the range of the selection.

If I hadn't been able to do that, it would have had to be IE-only at the time, since mozilla couldn't do text ranges in javascript yet.

Speed increase

[Undenied]

Finally apple is doing something about speeding Safari up. I don't know about everyone else, but anytime i opened more than 5 tabs in 1.1, my whole machine would slow to a crawl. Already I can tell a huge performance increase with 1.2!

Re:Speed increase

[johnpaul191]

oddly i only had an issue like that under 10.3.2...... i am back to 10.3.1 and just updated Safari today. after my machine freaked out a few times in 10.3.2 i left the Activity Monitor.app running and every so often Safari would freak out and the processor graph would surge to full green and stay there. i could force quit the one app, but the computer was hostile till restarted.

maybe i'll try 10.3.2 again?

p.s. running an older Sawtooth G4 400 with an 800MHz upgrade

Re:Speed increase

[NormanEinstein]

I usually have have a whole slew of tabs open and haven't noticed any performance issues. But faster is better, so I'm all for that! Woo!

Re:Speed increase

[OneOver137]

I noticed Safari has been crashing much more frequently under 10.3.2 than 10.3.1 so I was eager to upgrade to see if they fixed something. So far, so good. No crashes.

Re:Speed increase

[NatasRevol]

Try opening 5 tabs with different /. articles, browsing at -1. Then see if it slows down...

Re:Speed increase

[Anonymous Coward]

Weird. I've never had Safari crash ever, none of the versions.

What kind of trashy box do you keep, anyway? What kind of junk sites do you surf to?

I don't think we want to know about your personal hygiene either.

Re:Speed increase

[OneOver137]

I'm not sure why, under 10.3.2 Safari has crashed more relatively than all other Safari/OS X versions combined. I noticed it started happening after one of the recent security updates. BTW, these aren't pr0n sites (which work fine incidentally), but typical stuff like /. and Arstechnica.

Timely marketing

[babbage]

I like how the current marketing banner rotates between screenshots of Nasa's Mars Rover site, the Patriots winning the Super Bowl, and eBay [for people who don't like iTunes or Pepsi?]. Nice demographic spread there -- screenshots that'll appeal to (for example) me the science fan, my brothers the football fans, and my dad the online auction junkie. Somehow, I think that spread will cover a lot -- not all, but a lot -- of Safari's audience. Clever...

I've had it with Apple

[Krashed]

I tried to go download the updated version of Safari and guess what! It requires MacOS Panther! I already tried installing Panther on my Mac and it just gives me an error. Turns out that Panther is not compatable with my Macintosh. Apple forces you to upgrade the damn OS every single year at the low cost of $129. I bet that the next iPod software version will require Panther too. This isn't the first time that I've ranted about Apple forcing you to upgrade but it will be my last. I am not going to be ordering a new Powerbook 12" when the income tax arrives, my iPod will be formatted to PC soon, and my G3 will be running Linux by tommarow. I thought Jobs wanted freedom from the hordes of inline computer geeks but he plays Big Brother to the Mac users that loyally follow his lead.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[pauljlucas]

Apple forces you to upgrade the damn OS every single year at the low cost of $129.

Cry me a river. For $0.35/day (less than you probably spend on coffee), you get an amazing OS on great hardware. Stop whining.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Llywelyn]

>Apple forces you to upgrade the damn OS every single year at
>the low cost of $129.

Wow, Steve Jobs comes down to your house and makes you pay for the update at gunpoint? Why haven't I seen *that* on the news?

Face it, Apple doesn't force you, you can either pay the upgrade fee, or you can go without and your OS will still keep chugging along. No self destruct sequence, no crazed hoard of killer rabbits coming after you, it will just continue to work.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[fname]

And this is off-topic because...? Maybe flame-bait or a troll, but it's definitely off-topic. Anyways, I think it's bad for Apple and bad for the platform if Apple does not keep Safari up-to-date on at least its past 2 OS versions. Dropping support after 6 months would be a very bad thing, and this will serve to marginalize Macs. Now websites may only support Safari 1.2, and those people running Jag-wire are out-of-luck.

I'll grant that Apple may have released it for Panther first and will follow through with Jag-wire support later, and that would be fine. Barring that, I think not supporting an essential application like Safari after less than 6 months is a colossal mis-step, and I hope Apple corrects it. I suppose Safari 1.1 was 10.3 only, but I think that was more for compatibility sake. Will Safari q.2 even run on 10.2? Has anyone tried?

Re:I've had it with Apple

[JM Apocalypse]

What?! No hoards of killer rabbits? That ruins all of the fun!

Re:I've had it with Apple

[burns210]

agreed the price is well worth.. but more to the point, apple doesn't FORCE you to do anything. Like Jaguar, great, want the newest of updates, you'll need to get the newer Panther, but Jaguar keeps on working just fine regardless

Re:I've had it with Apple

[noewun]

Apple forces you to upgrade the damn OS every single year at the low cost of $129.

I've been using Macs since 1989 and I've never paid for an Apple OS, 10.3 included. There is no copy protection, no registration, no nothing on the OS CDs. Just have a friend burn you a copy.

And before you climb up on your high moral horse about "stealing" the OS, delete every piece of software and every MP3 you have downloaded and not paid for.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Graymalkin]

Wah wah. Safari 1.2 won't run on Jaguar. Camino and OmniWeb both run on Jaguar, OmniWeb 4.5 and 5 both use Safari's rendering engine. You've got options, including sticking with Safari 1.1.

There's nothing requiring you to upgrade MacOS every year. If what you've got works for you there's little reason to upgrade simply because a new version came out. Major commercial apps have pretty wide support bases and typically run on 10.1 and up. Smaller shareware apps move a little quicker and some of them require at least 10.2 in order to run. It is in a developer's best interest to support a wide range of systems so it will be a long time before 10.3 or newer is an absolute minimum requirement for a majority of software.

If you want to troll you could at least be creative about it.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Ilgaz]

There are people using eMacs etc which can't pay that price, also people _have_ to use Macs for their jobs running on second hand macs...

There are people with some trouble paying it...

I see you have .Mac account too, $100/year, no problem... but STOP being RUDE to people (you all) can't upgrade to latest version of your luxury OS...

I got a G5 here, one of the most expensive hw apple released so far, no money problems, yes I bought the fucking $34 upgrade CDs, installed but NOTHING justifies me to talk shit to people can't understand the damn reason why Safari does't work at 10.2.x , a 1 YEAR OLD Os!

Had enough with you, your kind of spoiled, rich people makes people hate from Apple...

Re:I've had it with Apple

[teamhasnoi]

You must have gone to the Apple website for Safari, because it doesn't show in software update under 10.2. You must have a beige G3, if Panther won't install.

Now I don't understand why you would buy Panther (you did *buy* it, right?) if you knew that it wouldn't install on a usb-less G3. You knew because you check these things out before you plop down $129 for a forced upgrade (you do read system requirements before spending $129, right?).

Now, if you *really* want to install panther, you can go here. You're going to have to have the required hardware (you will RTFA, right?) before you can do it, which will mean a new PCI video card, as the 4 meg ATi Rage ain't going to cut it.

As far as Apple forcing you to upgrade, did Steve come to your house and hold a slightly rounded plastic gun to your head and make you click on the 'Safari' link? When Panther came out, did all of your software stop working? I don't know where the 'forcing' comes into play - by your logic, linux, windows, and BeOS force you to upgrade every time a new version comes out.

As far as running linux on your G3 - go to town! I happily run 10.2.8 on my beige g3, and its quite usable and easy to configure. If you want to give up OS X, that's your issue. Say goodbye to Photoshop, Safari 1.1 (which works fine), and the rest of the consistent GUI software, 'cause it ain't there for linux.

Switching your iPod. You're switching to activation coded, exploit-filled Windows. Quite a trade up, I'm sure. Although, I'm sure Bill won't come by the house to force you to upgrade. He's too busy leveraging his monopoly to bring more substandard software to market.

As far as the 12" Powerbook, there you're really shorting yourself. I have a 15", and as I've said before, it's the best computer I've ever had. It came with 10.2.8, and I got Panther for 20 bucks.

Steve didn't make me, I *wanted* to.

I think that you will find something to whine about no matter what, so do what you will do. Put up or shut up as Dad was apt to say.

You want to run Panther like the kids in Cupertino intended, get the Powerbook and enjoy it, because you will. It's nice. Retire the G3 (throw 10.2.8 on the bitch and put it out to pasture as an FTP server). It's had a long, hard life.

Most of all, stop complaining. You could be spending that $129 a year on antivirus software, spyware detection and removal, software firewalls, Norton Ghost and your time trying to figure out what services to disable this week, and how to get IE and WMP from stealing file associations.

If all that isn't worth $129 a year, maybe you should give up on computers and get a job pushing a rock to the top of a hill.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go run software update on my powerbook (and not worry about my exploit-free, Beige G3 FTP server) and check out the new Safari.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a Mac thing, it's a /. thing, I agree with you, there are a lot of arrogant ppl here, best to ignore them.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[trash eighty]

i doubt any websites will only support Safari 1.2... or any Safari for that matter. Safari is supposed to be based on web standards anyway so its irrelevant.

i don't like being tied into an upgrade cycle by apple so i changed to Firebird, its a better browser anyway IMO

Re:I've had it with Apple

[DarkVader]

From the XPostFacto 3.0a11 page:

The Beige G3s

The Beige G3s are working. However, some additional work is required to get the built-in video to work with Panther.

The Wallstreet Powerbooks

The Wallstreet Powerbooks are working, with some video-related issues in some configurations.

It's just a minor point, really, but Ryan seems to think that the built in video will be working on the pre-USB G3s in the future.

And yes, I take issue with Apple dropping support for these machines. Considering that a third party developer can take the open source Darwin drivers and hack the support back in, Apple should have had no trouble not removing it in the first place. They can say the machines are unsupported all they like, but there is NO valid excuse for going to extra effort to remove the ability for the OS to work. All it does is piss users off, and give the anti-Mac crowd some legit ammo - and nobody needs that.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[arkanes]

You can play all kinds of semantic games but you're closing your eyes and plugging your ears if you don't thing Apple does everything it can to get you to pay that $130 a year. It's called "recurring profit stream" and it's what every software company has. Rapidly obseleting old versions is a good way to do it, but it's going to piss people off. Apple doesn't apologize for it and you don't need to do it for them.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

* Climbs on high horse

Why are you so proud of this? I hope you get cancer and die.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Leroy_Brown242]

Sure, apple wants to make money. But there are heards of people who are still on one of the early versions of OS X, and are perfectly happy. I know I would be if I wasn't a version freak.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you know how god damn stupid it is to run Panther on a 300 Mhz G3 with Rage IIc video?

Why for the name of sweet baby Jesus would you want to torture yourself that way? Are you a masochist? Do you enjoy pain and suffering?

What is it with these poeple that expect a 2003 OS thats had 4 major revisions to run on their 1999 computer?

Do you run Windows 2003 Server on your Gateway P2? Fucking get offa your wallet, you cheap azzed bastard. YOu can get a g4 now on ebay for 500 bucks all day long. YOu mean to tell me you wont spend 500 bucks?

Re:I've had it with Apple

[joeljones]

Calling a pile of dung a flower doesn't make it smell sweet. Theft is theft. I don't have to delete every piece of software and MP3 that I haven't paid for, because I never downloaded any in the first place.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Dr Reducto]

Yeah, you'll much prefer upgrading your PC every 2 years, or constantly as in my case. I would rather have a computer that required $129 a year in software, than $400 in hardware upgrades every 2 years. And face it, you can pirate Panther if it is that big of a deal. You can't download a 9800 off of Kazaa however.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[GrahamCox]

And before you climb up on your high moral horse about "stealing" the OS, delete every piece of software and every MP3 you have downloaded and not paid for.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[idsofmarch]

Um okay...did you freak out when Apple released the security update for OSX.3 and then later in the week, after a wave of bitching and moaning on Slashdot, everyone who had bitched was quiet when it was announced that yes indeed Apple was releasing an update for Jaguar as well. I'm just wondering. How old is your computer by the way, a Beige G3 I believe, I mean dude when did you buy that thing?

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows XP runs very well on a pentium 2.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice troll.

Just because you choose to constantly upgrade your PC doesn't mean everyone else does. Windows XP runs just fine on 5 year old hardware.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[noewun]

Lord, the moderation of this comment goes up and down more than Apple's stock price.

Perhaps I should expand the thought:

The guy was complaining that he was forced to pay $129 to upgrade every year. I think this is a facetious argument. Had the guy said he thought Apple was wrong to charge that much for the OS, I might agree. But he didn't. He said:

Apple forces you to upgrade the damn OS every single year at the low cost of $129.

which is not true on several levels:

1) Apple does not force anyone to do anything. The OS does not expire, the hardware doesn't stop working and the universe keeps moving.

2) The CDs aren't copy protected. You can easily copy them and install it on any number of machines. Apple purposefully doesn't stop you from doing this.

3) Given the vast volume of software which is pirated every year, and the glee with which many Slashdot people discuss their pirated copies of Windows, I find it hard to take people seriously when they complain about the cost of system software. Perhaps this is just my view of the world. Perhaps it's just the lowlifes I hang out with who have no problem copying software, but no one is ever forced to pay for Windows or OS X. It's just too easy to get.

Does Apple charge too much? A good point for debate. But no one has a gun to their head.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

uhmmmm one hint on the install of Panther.

It apparently does not like some third party RAM on install so pop out the stick that did not come with the machine. It should install fine after that. After the install replace the RAM stick and you should be good to go.

Worked for me

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Dr Reducto]

I know that. My 466 Celeron runs XP smoother than 98.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[rixstep]

upgrade fee

What's all this 'upgrade fee'? Panther's $129 is not an upgrade fee. It's the cost of Panther, upgrade or not.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

> Panther's $129 is not an upgrade fee. It's the cost of Panther, upgrade or not.

Yes, and 10.3 is an upgrade to 10.2 (or did you think they rewrite everything every year?)

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a new operating system, and it's not an upgrade either. It's a downgrade.

I got Panther for $20 too, but I'll be damned if I'll run it. It stinks. On a brand new AlBook the speed difference is dramatic. And as Adam at Tidbits pointed out, you need double the RAM, or you'll have a gigabyte of swap in no time.

And it's not a new OS. Expose? OK, some users are so terminally clueless they can't keep track of the windows on screen they've opened themselves because they're so fucking dumb. And so Expose helps them, MAYBE, and sure it looks cool, and you can play with it a while like a goddamned video game - but is that a new OS? No.

And user switching. It's cool for a family with an iMac on a table in the sitting room, so everyone can get a shot at it, but is it an OS? No. It's a feature. A feature they could have added at any time.

Let's talk user interface. Panther's user interface stinks. You don't even have adequate contrast anymore between active and inactive windows. That stinks. Be honest - it stinks.

No one in Cupertino had this fantastic new idea to trump Jaguar and held back on it until Panther. They just changed things because they wanted to innovate, but they fell flat on their faces. It's not innovation, it's only change, and bad change at that.

Not to speak of the impossible file navigation. In the past you could go anywhere. Now you can't. Smacks of Bill all the way. And the side bars - I mean come on! This is Microsoft all the way.

We get a great GUI in OPENSTEP and then - what? Destroy the good in it so we can have something that looks more and more like Internet Explorer for Windows? Give me a break.

And the textured (metal) windows. What's the deal? In the beginning the HI group said it's OK for Safari to have it, because textured is for apps dealing with the hardware, and Safari can do Rendezvous, and that's almost the same thing.

But now every app and its brother has metal. The Finder has metal.

And oh - is it a new OS because the Finder is different? And how different? And please don't offer me a new Finder, when I couldn't stand the last one. Konqueror has good file management; so does the parent to this. But the Finder stinks. Why would anyone boo Steve Jobs when he presented the OPENSTEP File Viewer? Because they're Birkenstock idiots is what. File Viewer wasn't the whole world, but it was better than this paraplegic Finder.

A new OS is a step forward - a transcending step. People are calling Panther an upgrade because that's what it feels like. And not an entirely new OS, which it is not.

The issue is not whether it's worth $129, but whether at any price it's a good idea to run it. And I say 'no it is not'. I say: 'wait until August and see if they do it again, and then decide'.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

You're an elitist, an idiot, and probably a liar too. Fuck off, no ones cares about your childish pseudo-insight.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of all, stop complaining. You could be spending that $129 a year on antivirus software, spyware detection and removal, software firewalls, Norton Ghost and your time trying to figure out what services to disable this week, and how to get IE and WMP from stealing file associations.

buddy, where are you getting this from? i mean if you can get all that for $129 a year, i want your connections!

the time i spent pulling spyware and trojans off the old win2k box last week was worth WAY more than $500 to me! and OS X? hell espose alone is worth the entry price, the rest is just bonus! ....and yes, i am replacing the POS winders machine with a Mac, any Mac than can run 10.3, a fast as humanly possible.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Grow up and lean how in the real world, no one gives a shit.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[MoneyT]

Double my ram.... nope

Expose.... very useful for switching between windows and apps when doing research or coding

User switching.... I don't use it, but I know plent of people who do use it, and actualy it's really nice to work with when I'm doing some system work on a user's computer and they're not arround at the moment to save their work.

Contrast between windows.... no problem for me. Active window has bold titles and colored widgets, other windows are dimmer and the widgets are grey.

File Navigation.... um where can't I get to? I can go anywhere I damn well please. I may not be able to always write there, but that's what root is for.

Textured metal windows... asthetics, if you don't like it, change it. Or heaven forbid, install your own window manager. Personaly I like it better than the old Aqua interface. Of course, if you really don't like it, there's this little white button in the top right corner of your finder window. Click it. Enjoy.

The side bar can be turned off

So can the control bar at the top of the window.

In alll, you're griping over nothing. If you didn't think it was worth it, don't buy it. Obviously the old system worked well enough for you.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Josuah]

The Beige G3/300 with Rage IIc is actually from 1996, not 1999. :) At least, that's when I got mine.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[DarkVader]

You haven't actually tried running it yourself, have you?

It's not stupid to run Panther on a 300 MHz G3 with Rage Pro video. I've not done it yet, but I'm sure it's not really much worse on Rage IIc. It actually runs quite nicely on a 300MHz tangerine iBook with 160MB RAM. You're not going to be doing much video editing on that configuration without going nuts, but for web browsing, word processing, and doing the books, it's a very workable configuration. I just sold that machine, and the new owner is VERY happy running Panther on it.

And no, I don't run Windows 2003 server on a Gateway. I don't own a Gateway, and I the only Windows box I have runs XP on a 400MHz Celeron. The computer was free, and I only use it as a test platform when I have to.

I've got everything from a P4 1.7 to a P1 166 running Linux, though. And I've run Mac OS X on just about every machine that will run it, from a 7500 with a processor upgrade to a dual 2.0 G5. It handles the old hardware much better than Windows does.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[DarkVader]

Are you sure about that? I didn't think they existed before 97.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[Josuah]

I think that's when I got it...perhaps my memory is really bad.

Re:I've had it with Apple

[denks]

and my G3 will be running Linux by tommarow

Hate to break this to you, but if youre after Safari 1.2, installing Linux on your G3 isnt going to help you. Or buying a PC for that matter.

If you want the latest browser for your Mac without having to pay anyone, ever heard of Mozilla? It will work on 10.1

Just out of curiosity, what hardware are you running on?

User stylesheets

[weeeeed]

Well, since you are already hacking around in some files, why not just create a user style sheet? No "...series of hacks on top of Apple's WebKit framework...", just pure CSS.

Create a css file somewhere with a text editor, put following inside (Not made by me, just found it somewhere and made some additions):

/*
* This file can be used to apply a style to all web pages you view
* Rules without !important are overruled by author rules if the
* author sets any. Rules with !important overrule author rules.
*/

/*
* turns off "blink" element blinking
*/
blink { text-decoration: none ! important; }

/*
* hides many ads by preventing display of images that are inside
* links when the link HREF contans certain substrings.
*/

A:link[HREF*="ad."] IMG { display: none ! important }
A:link[HREF*="ads."] IMG { display: none ! important }
A:link[HREF*="/ad"] IMG { display: none ! important }
A:link[HREF*="/A="] IMG { display: none ! important }
A:link[HREF*="/click"] IMG { display: none ! important }
A:link[HREF*="?click"] IMG { display: none ! important }
A:link[HREF*="?banner"] IMG { display: none ! important }
A:link[HREF*="=click"] IMG { display: none ! important }
A:link[HREF*="/ar.atwo"] IMG { display: none ! important }
A:link[HREF*="spinbox."] IMG { display: none ! important }
A:link[HREF*="transfer.go"] IMG { display: none ! important }
A:link[HREF*="adfarm"] IMG { display: none ! important }
A:link[HREF*="bluestreak"] IMG { display: none ! important }
A:link[HREF*="doubleclick"] IMG { display: none ! important }

/* disable ad iframes */
IFRAME[SRC*="ad."] { display: none ! important }
IFRAME[SRC*="ads."] { display: none ! important }
IFRAME[SRC*="/ad"] { display: none ! important }
IFRAME[SRC*="/A="] { display: none ! important }
IFRAME[SRC*="/click"] { display: none ! important }
IFRAME[SRC*="?click"] { display: none ! important }
IFRAME[SRC*="?banner"] { display: none ! important }
IFRAME[SRC*="=click"] { display: none ! important }
IFRAME[SRC*="/ar.atwo"] { display: none ! important }
IFRAME[SRC*="spinbox."] { display: none ! important }
IFRAME[SRC*="transfer.go"] { display: none ! important }
IFRAME[SRC*="adfarm"] { display: none ! important }
IFRAME[SRC*="bluestreak"] { display: none ! important }
IFRAME[SRC*="doubleclick"] { display: none ! important }

xIMG[usemap] { display: none ! important }

/* turning some false positives back off */

A:link[HREF*="download."] IMG { display: inline ! important }
A:link[HREF*="click.mp3"] IMG { display: inline ! important }

/*
* For more examples see http://www.mozilla.org/unix/customizing.html
*/

Add this file as your Stylesheet in safari: Preferences/Advanced/Style Sheet.... there you go...

Most tips for the Mozilla userContent.css file work also with Safari, so search on google for userContent.css for more examples.

Re:User stylesheets

[awtbfb]

This is such a clever idea. Thanks for pointing it out. It's a good thing Safari is CSS compliant.

Re:User stylesheets

[Grincho]

...why not just create a user style sheet?

Mostly because there's no CSS way I know to keep GIF's from animating.

Re:User stylesheets

[danielsfca2]

This is an awesome tip, but how can it be modified to nuke the ads on MSN? Here's some sample banner code:

<script language="JavaScript">
//<![CDATA[
document.writ e('');
var aURL=new Array('','http://g.msn.com/0AD0000G/572081.1?http: //www.proflowers.com/freevase/index.cfm?prodset=OP Cwol&REF=FGVMSNMSNDisplayad020404v2flash&amp;&amp; PID=2212946&amp;UIT=P&amp;TargetID=1048194&amp;AN= 16512&amp;PG=MSNREC','','','','','','','');
v ar szNameOfFlashObj_302="NGAPFlashObj_302", pathString;
var MSAdsEmbed=0,MSAdsUseFlash=0,MSNadsBGCOLOR="#FFFFF F",MSNadsMENU="FALSE",MSNadsWIDTH=300,MSNadsHEIGHT =125;
if(top.frames.length==0){var g_nOffsetY_302=2,g_nOffsetX_302=2;}else{var g_nOffsetY_302=0,g_nOffsetX_302=0;}
function dlWrite_571878(){document.write('<a target="_blank" href="http://g.msn.com/0AD0000G/572081.2?http://ww w.proflowers.com/freevase/index.cfm?prodset=OPCwol &REF=FGVMSNMSNDisplayad020404v2gif&amp;&amp;PID=22 12946&amp;UIT=P&amp;TargetID=1048194&amp;AN=16512& amp;PG=MSNREC"><img src="http://global.msads.net/ads/abuimg/proflowers _5097_MSN_300X125B.gif" width=300 height=125 border="0" alt="Click&#32;Here&#33;" /></a>');document.write (...)

I tried this, trying to filter on the IMG SRC since the A tag on MSN ads is so vague (g.msn.com/...), but it didn't work:

A IMG[SRC*="ads."] { display: none ! important }

Or do ads that are "document.written()" by JavaScript just bypass the stylesheet completely?

Re:User stylesheets

[weeeeed]

The save way for msn would be:

IMG[src*="msads.net/"], IMG[src*="atdmt.com/"] { display: none ! important }

but your way...

A IMG[SRC*="ads/"] { display: none ! important }

...should work as well (you had a . inside instead of /, the image link is to .../ads/... )...

I found the tip in the original posting at: http://www.floppymoose.com/

Safari 1.2 improves image downloading a lot

[GrahamCox]

Apart from the fact that downloads can now be resumed, image downloads are much better. Previously, if you dragged an image from the browser to the desktop (or wherever), it would download it AGAIN. Now it simply copies the image from the cache, if it's up to date. Halve your bandwidth overnight! Also, image icons with a download in progress are no longer broken - the icon shows an animated progress bar (!) until the d/l is complete, then the proper icon shows up. The only thing missing is that the image file doesn't store a preview, so you still get the generic icon browsing downloaded images in the Open dialog.

Still to be fixed: The annoying jumping around that happens when reloading a previously scrolled page. It should stop trying to remember the old scroll position if it receives a new scroll event for that page in the meantime.

Re:Safari 1.2 improves image downloading a lot

[Anonymous Coward]

Halve your bandwidth? Overnight?? Just how many images are you saving?

Oh wait, porn.

Re:Safari 1.2 improves image downloading a lot

[rixstep]

Previously, if you dragged an image from the browser to the desktop (or wherever), it would download it AGAIN.

Yes, nonsensical, but there was a way around that, and still is for those who don't upgrade.

Just open the image in a new window and use Save As.

The annoying jumping around that happens when reloading a previously scrolled page.

Agreed. But even more; some sites seem to put S into a tizzy (/. is one). No matter that you click to move on, S will continue to load (forever) and only precious minutes later recognise the new click.

If on the other hand you stop the current load and click again, S will do nothing. Check your location bar, and you'll see the next URL which you clicked for but where you never arrived. The trick here is to click Refresh instead.

Another beauty: if you muck with the location bar's contents and hit Refresh, S gets lost. There is no internal representation for your current location; it seems the only storage for this is your location bar, which is eminently editable.

And if you're waiting for a heavy image to load, does the user really think Safari is faster it if doesn't show a single pixel until it can WHAM! put it all there at once? If the dimensions are known, why not do it a bit at a time like Camino? For it's a lot easier to make up your mind whether you want to wait out the complete download or not.

Finally, the 'no man's land' in the lower right hand corner can easily get double scroll bar arrows. This will not happen that often on broadband, but on dialup from a hotel it's very annoying. The technique Cocoa normally does (as evidenced by their table view) is to put a dummy control in these unused areas, but the S team, albeit aware of this cosmetic bug from the get-go, have still not taken the time to fix it.

Re:Safari 1.2 improves image downloading a lot

[Pope]

Which invites a new annoyance: instead of being able to control-click and "Download Image To Disk" I have to put up with "Save Image As..." which then pops up a dialog instead of simply saving to my default Downloads folder.

Hell, now "Download Link As..." is the default as well! Option-control-clicking to get the menu or simply Option-clicking the link will download it to the default Downloads folder, but is still an annoyance.

Still no navigation via contexual menu

[calstraycat]

Everybody's got their favorite pet peeve and this one is mine. It's obvious now that the Grand Puba in charge of features has decided that thou shalt only only navigate via the toolbar. This omission remains despite the fact that every other browser on earth provides this feature and it is used by a majority of web surfers. My wife won't use it due to this inexplicable omission. She just gives me an incredulous look and exclaims "what do you mean there's no back and forward when I click? This thing sucks". Safari is my main browser and I like it a lot, but this is a major shortcoming in my book.

When it comes to application features, I'm often able to understand the reasoning behind a particular implementation even if I don't personally like it. But, for the life of me, I can't think of one good reason to leave this feature out.

Can anyone enlighten me on the advantages of always having to mouse to the upper left-hand corner to go to the previous page? Am I missing something? I know I can do it from the keyboard, but I often like to kick back and just use the mouse.

BTW, the update is nice. Faster. Renders some sites that previously were unreadable and/or unusable. I love the minimum font size feature and being able to tab through page items.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[TitanBL]

I go back and forth thru pages and tabs, open and close tabs, using Cocoa Gestures. Check it out.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[Squozen]

Try Command-[ and Command-] for page back/page forward. Yep, those keyboard shortcuts are listed in the History menu so I'm not sure why you didn't find them... they work in the Finder too.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[Squozen]

Oh, and as of Safari 1.2, Command and the left/right arrow keys go back/forward.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[MoneyT]

Actualy, that's worked for a while now.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[dhamsaic]

He very specifically omitted keyboard shortcuts as a fix to the problem. He wants to be able to right-click on a web page and hit the "Back" menu item, which doesn't exist in Safari.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[lamz]

Can anyone enlighten me on the advantages of always having to mouse to the upper left-hand corner to go to the previous page?

It could be historical, because contextual menus are relatively new to Macs. Historically, Mac applications are optimized for two types of users, beginner and advanced. The beginner uses the menus to do everything, and once familiar with an application, makes note of the keyboard shortcuts listed next to the most common menu commands. As the user becomes advanced, he/she uses more and more keyboard shortcuts.

Contextual menus occupy a strange sort of middle ground, catering to perhaps a different sort of user: lazy-beginner, or inefficient-advanced. This type of user interface is on a par with the classic Windows way of handling keyboard shortcuts, which is to use the keys to pull down and navigate menus. I always thought that was weird too.

That said, I still miss the Finder contextual menu item which arranges files by name, which was first implemented in Mac OS 8.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[wongaboo]

Why touch the mouse? I just hit backspace, or the right arrow.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[calstraycat]

Good point. As a long time Mac and Windows user, I am aware of the history of contextual menus on both platforms. But, Safari does make use of contextual menus. It's the choice of what goes into those menus that leaves me dumbfounded. Right-clicking on a page gives me a selection of show source, save and print. I think I am not alone in considering those actions as something one does relatively infrequently. Meanwhile, they omit back and forward which are used all the time.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd have an easer time understanding if there were no contextual menus at all, e.g. like the pre-OS8 days. But, if they are going to implement them, I would like to see them populated with useful and frequently used functions. I have the same gripe in the Finder where they have added "Folder Actions" which is a feature that will be used by maybe one percent of users.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[calstraycat]

As I stated in my post, I am aware of keyboard shortcuts for navigation and I do use them sometimes. But, I often prefer to navigate by the mouse alone. Navigation via the contextual menu is the best and most common way to do this. The decision to leave it out seems arbitrary and makes it difficult for the millions of folks who have grown used to the method.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[BandwidthHog]

I've got one of my extra mouse buttons (Logitech MX-700; good hardware, atrocious software driving it) set to to Back. Much better than either a right-click or a toolbar click.

I do, however, agree with you. Totally boneheaded on Apple's part.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[quecojones]

Just what the hell are "Foldr Actions" anyway?

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[Anonymous Coward]

My wife won't use it due to this inexplicable omission.

'Inexplicable' is not a fact, and as for your wife - well she seems a bit - how shall we say - 'rigid'?

Good luck, buddy.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[rixstep]

I think there is a case for the Windows keyboard stuff, and it's called accessibility. Some people simply can't use a mouse - physically. And they have to rely on the keyboard doing it for them. The Mac won't give you this, but I might be wrong. At any rate, I've never discovered it. Windows menus have mnemonics which open them, and F10 will always toggle menu activity. (There's another key too, but gratefully it escapes me, so long it's been since I've had to sit in front of a Windoze box.)

But there is a validity to seeing that every function in every app can be governed without a mouse.

Then too, the following stats might be interesting. They're MS stats, but nonetheless. Study of focus groups show that only about 17% of all users will gravitate towards keyboard shortcuts when given the three alternatives of toolbar buttons, menu, and the shortcuts themselves.

The overwhelming majority - 57% - will choose the toolbar.

FWIW.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[Anonymous Coward]

The Mac won't give you this, but I might be wrong. At any rate, I've never discovered it.
Full access to anything on the screen is available through the keyboard & mouse setttings in system prefs. In 10.3 ^-F1 (^=ctrl) toggles full keyboard access. ^F2 focuses on the menu bar while ^F3 changes focus to the dock.
these are all customizable, as are all keyboard commands.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[calstraycat]

No, it does remain "inexplicable". The question I posed in post was "can anyone think of a good reason to leave out a very frequently used feature that is found in all other browsers?". Since no one has been able to provide a good answer, including you, I think I made my point. As for my wife, like me, she has grown used to using a very convenient feature. Jeez, this place is just full dimwitted smartasses.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[MoneyT]

I think the apple idea of contextual menus is a bit different from the windows idea. Under the apple system, it seems to be a matter of actions that are in "context" with the item you are clicking on. In the case of view source, save and print, those are all actions that are applicable to the page itself, they are actions performed on the page. Whereas back, and forward are prowser actions as a whole, they are not actions to be perfromed on the page.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[MoneyT]

Originaly apple used to impliment this feature via something called Mouse keys, where you could use the keyboard (specificaly the numeric keypad) to move the mouse pointer arround the screen, and click and drag etc etc. More recently (10.2 or thereabouts) they've implimented direct to menu keyboard navigation, and they have kept the keyboard access. These options can be found under system preferences -> universal access.

Apple has also added the ability to create your own navigation shortcuts as well.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[calstraycat]

Wow. That the best explanation I've heard. In fact, it's the only one that makes sense. Like I said in my post, I can usually surmise the reasoning behind a design decision, but I wasn't able to do that with this one.

That said, I'd still like navigation added to the menu because it's convenient and is virtually a de-facto standard. Heck, lately Apple breaks it's own user interface guidelines regularly so I don't see any reason for strict adherence in this case.

Thanks for the intelligent answer.

Cheers

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[MoneyT]

Yeah, I took a quick look at the HIG and I think that's probably the most reasonable explination. You can find the HIG here but here are some of the more relevant quotes on contextual menus:

"A contextual menu provides convenient access to often-used commands associated with an item."

"Include a small subset of the most commonly used commands in the appropriate context. For example, Edit menu commands should appear in the contextual menu for highlighted text, but not a Save or a Print command."

In fact, I just noticed that they put the back and forward menu commands in the history menu, which does seem to suggest this is the most likely reason why it isn't there, as a user doesn't usualy associate a history command with the current page.

I guess it would be nice to have, but I never got used to it so I couldn't say. You might also be able to use something like USB Overdrive to define an action for a middle click to go back or something (I assume you probably have a scroll wheel if you have 2 buttons). It's worth a shot.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[Aram Fingal]

I have always used command-left arrow for back and command-right arrow for forward. I guess the right-click thing is fine if you are are used to that way of doing things but it's not a traditional Mac way. The keyboard shortcuts work well with one hand on the mouse and one hand on the keyboard. That's probably the style they are going for in the Safari design.

Having said that, it does make sense to add the feature you are looking for since it's one of those little things (like the bit about the delete and backspace keys) which mean a lot for people who live in between Windows and Mac. It wouldn't take away from other user's experience.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[cosmo7]

Just what the hell are "Foldr Actions" anyway?

Folder actions is a way of attaching AppleScripts to a folder. For example, you can have a folder action to email a file to a preset address when it's dropped into a folder.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[Anonymous Coward]

That's how Windows & OS/2 contextual menus are *supposed* to work as well -- the thing you click on is the object, and the menu shows actions on that object.

Back and Forward were added to the right-click menu just for convenience, not because it makes sense.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[quecojones]

Cool. I hadn't seen that. Thanks for the info. :)

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[jsebrech]

That makes no sense whatsoever. Back and forward ARE tied to a page. If you switch tabs, back and forward will aply to the current tab. Hence, back and forward apply to the currently visible site, the current page, and so should be available in the context menu of the current page.

My guess is the apple developers simply have a rule saying "no more than this many items in the context menu", and adding back, forward and reload would have broken that limit.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[pcwood]

I simply keep posting the lack of "mouse gestures" as a bug.
Maybe if more people do the same, we'll eventually see it added. Such an awesome and efficient function.

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[Qunicy]

Option-up or down arrow will take you up or down a screen on a page; Apple (or what newbies to the Apple world call COMMAND) and the up and down arrows take you to the top and bottom of the page and Apple-left or right arrow take you backward or forwards. The thing I wish Apple would add is the ability to print the URL/Date/page number on each printed web page like other browsers do. It is usually set up in page set up...has anyone found it?

Re:Still no navigation via contexual menu

[MoneyT]

Nope, because if you look at the context menu for an item in the Finder, you will see more than 3 context options. Very simply put, back and forward are not actions you perform on the page you are clicking on.

Minimum font size!

[tbmaddux]

You could previously set this with Safari Enhancer or by tweaking your .plist files. Then Panther took it away for a little before Hyatt brought it back. Now it is explicitly supported in Safari 1.2. Go to Preferences and choose the Advanced pane.

Safari Enhancer of course remains a must-have app for other tweaks. I also like Safari Bookmark Exporter so I can dump my bookmarks into Camino, Mozilla, and Firebird - speaking of which, where the hell is my 0.8?

Re:Minimum font size!

[mrpuffypants]

word at mozillazine is that it'll be out this week

Re:Minimum font size!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, but I think your Safari Enhancer is a bag of shit.

My Safari takes 1.5 MB on disk - and you want me to download a compressed package that's over half again as big to do what? To edit Safari's plist?

Are you TOTALLY or just mostly brain-dead? Brown matter instead of gray matter?

Re:Minimum font size!

[Anonymous Coward]

Firebird - speaking of which, where the hell is my 0.8?

According to Mozillazine: The target release date is Monday February 9th. This according to Ben Goodger, Chief Executive Software Engineer Guru and CEO of the Mozilla Firebird Corporation.

The reason for the delay has not been related to code issues. More on that after the 0.8 release. Stay tuned.

Re:Minimum font size!

[Ilgaz]

Mozillazine, that mozilla fanatic site...

As well as the other site hating from Mozilla, I don't care about them. Both fanatics

Also imho if Mozilla wants to progress it should get rid of such fanatics and listen to people who dislike Moz for some reason.

Mozilla 1.6 manages to flood an 64bit cpu (G5) and make my G5 sound like a jet...

Anyways

Re:Minimum font size!

[jsebrech]

Ofcourse, the post was about camino, which doesn't suffer from the described problems. The mozilla suite itself is a dead-end development-wise anyway. All mozilla.org development is going into the birds and the backend. Only outside developers are still contributing to the suite itself. So rest assured, they know it sucks, and they intend to abandon it.

Mozillazine is good wrt getting news on mozilla. Yes, they're pro-mozilla, but if you want to know when the next version of insert-mozilla-product-here will be released, it's the best place to go.

Oops, typo above!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sound like the 2nd sentence should be, "Maybe flame-bait or a troll, but it's definitely on -topic."

No concurrent http connection limit

[joni]

The most notable change for me was the removal of the stupid four concurrent http connections limit. If you had four files downloading all you web browsing would just stop until one of the downloads finished.

Now that limit is gone. I just tried adding huge list of files for download and opened multiple tabs and everything worked beautifully. Also it's great to be able to resume failed downloads, no need for third party download managers anymore.

Re:No concurrent http connection limit

[spicyjeff]

Thank god, finally. This was a major annoyance...using tabs but not having any more than four elements at a time downloading sort of defeated the tabs purpose.

If please, one developer can tell?

[Ilgaz]

Why not for 10.2? OK, Framework... Framework can't be updated too? I mean, I flamed enough but nobody tells the exact reason. I am really curious.

BTW, to people standing in line to shout "Don't be cheapo, buy Panther", yes I bought, the upgrade. It works on my G5... I still get mad/confused about this kind of policy.

I don't get it, why Apple does such thing hurts its image? Really curious as end user only, no kidding...

Re:If please, one developer can tell?

[AKnightCowboy]

BTW, to people standing in line to shout "Don't be cheapo, buy Panther", yes I bought, the upgrade. It works on my G5... I still get mad/confused about this kind of policy.

I don't get it, why Apple does such thing hurts its image? Really curious as end user only, no kidding...

Because they want to make more money I suppose. I've only had Jaguar since October 2002 and now I won't be able to get updates anymore? Microsoft is still putting out updates all the time for Windows 2000 and that came out in 1999. People can gripe all they want about how evil Microsoft is, but they definitely support their products much better and longer than the other desktop competition.

Re:If please, one developer can tell?

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't anyone check Apple's website. There's a version for 10.2 as well!

Re:If please, one developer can tell?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Framework relies on text features (shadowing for example but that's a simple example) that are not available in Jaguar. While they could either add those feature to Jaguar or write workarounds that would exclude requests for them both of those option produce fragile code and a less than optimal user experience for Jaguar and Panther users.

They are not just trying to make a buck. Panther has major text handling improvements.

Re:If please, one developer can tell?

[danrees]

Microsoft is still putting out updates all the time for Windows 2000 and that came out in 1999

Security updates, fine! But software enhancements is a different matter. Microsoft hasn't updated IE6 functionality since Windows XP was released, whereas Apple has consistently improved upon its packaged web browser's functionality. Sure, Microsoft has improved Windows Media Player, but what else?

Re:If please, one developer can tell?

[Lizard_King]

Wrong.

http://www.apple.com/safari/download/

Requirements for Safari 1.2:

Mac OS X 10.3 or later
Any Macintosh computer

Re:If please, one developer can tell?

[Anonymous Coward]

Framework can't be updated too?

In a word, no.

The web frameworks have dependencies on many other system frameworks, and if Apple back-ported all of those changes to Jaguar, then it would be Panther.

Re:If please, one developer can tell?

[Ilgaz]

Shadowing text? on HTML? or Browser itself?

If I was a PC merchant I could say one thing easily, "See, they don't even update their browser without money".

Any words against it?

Browser is not an extra program anymore btw...

Houston, there is a problem

[Ilgaz]

There, there...

http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/zoomviewer/

Its powered by "Viewpoint" player, Viewpoint insist us to use ns 4.76 while it doesn't work too.

Previous Safari could somehow display the "interactive image" which you could drag at least clicking inside, now with all the hopes of "liveconnect", I go there to test the interactive buttons, nothing works.

Its the evil "regression" thing I fear.

Note: Cleared my cache, reloaded. Also reported bug to apple.
Note2: Opera 7/Mac developers, yes, Safari has regression, go back to coding instead of reading /. ! Release an alpha for gods sake ;)

Re:Houston, there is a problem

[Ilgaz]

Now the page sits there on its tab since I posted it, I accidentally mouseovered image, now the buttons work and image works but still at bottom "cancelled opening page"

OK, this thing has a hope to work, reporting to Viewpoint...

Re:Houston, there is a problem

[Anonymous Coward]

This doesn't appear to work on Windows either, using Opera 7.11 browser.

Tabbing through form elements

[Skidge]

This release didn't fix my pet peeve with Safari: being able to tab through all form elements. Having to click on checkboxes, radio buttons, drop-down selection boxes, etc, is a huge pain when you're testing complicated forms for web applications, especially when every other browser tabs through every element type. I was hoping the this Safari update would address that issue.

Re:Tabbing through form elements

[Skidge]

Ok, I'm replying to myself, but I just did some more research and figured out that if you "Turn on full keyboard access" in the Keyboard Shortcuts tab in the Keyboard & Mouse section in System Preferences, it will allow you to tab through drop down menus, checkboxes, etc. I'm assuming that's been there all along and I never noticed. :)

Re:Tabbing through form elements

[therevolution]

System Preferences -> Keyboard and Mouse -> Keyboard Shortcuts. Check "Turn on full keyboard access." Enjoy.

Re:Tabbing through form elements

[Anonymous Coward]

True, but as I've learned, it's not a Safari function, but rather part of the OS. To enable tabbing through forms and dropdown lists, do this:
Go to System Preferences > Keyboard & Mouse > Keyboard Shortcuts tab > check "Turn on full keyboard access".
I believe this only works under Panther (10.3) but I could be wrong. Hope this helps.

Re:Tabbing through form elements

[Anonymous Coward]

You're looking in the wrong place. This has been in OS X for quite some time. Go to System Preferences, Keyboard & Mouse, then select Keyboard Shortcuts, and look at the bottom of the window. "Turn on full keyboard access" is what you're looking for.

Re:Tabbing through form elements

[eDogg]

It definitely was not there before. I turned on full Keyboard access back in the 0.x days and then hoped again in the 1.0 and 1.1 days, but no luck. When I saw this in my SU this morning i was thrilled. Finally I can tab to checkboxes and select lists!!!! Thank you Apple!!

Re:Tabbing through form elements

[wilkens]

You're right, this has been there for a while, but I've never gotten it to work reliably. I turn it on, it works for the rest of the session--or maybe a bit longer--and then it stops working. Maybe I have a bad plist file or something. Anyway, it would be cool if this fixed it, because I really do like to be able to tab to everything.

Re:Tabbing through form elements

[Elysdir]

The "Turn on full keyboard access" option has been in System Preferences for a while, but it didn't work in web pages in Safari until now. (That is, you could tab around from one control to another in dialog boxes, but you couldn't tab from one control to another (except text boxes) in a web page in Safari until now.)

changes to KHTML?

[weinford]

If they improved web site compatibility, they most likely changed the rendering engine KHTML. Does anyone know? The changes will have to be given back to the KHTML developers, since it is LGPLed. I know the Apple developers did that before, and I must say that this is a great example for a working open source license!

Re:changes to KHTML?

[Meowing]

Yes, they're sticking to their promises. You can get the source to WebCore v125 from this page.

Re:changes to KHTML?

[curious.corn]

Apple scores +5: Good netizen...
all I worry for is their quality control on hardware; I'll keep an eye on it but my next PowerBook upgrade will be an Apple, thare's no question about it ;-)

Re:changes to KHTML?

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope so. Those IBM Powerbooks are shitty. :P

Re:changes to KHTML?

[Anonymous Coward]

i'd rather they use some of the changes the KDE team has implemented. KHTML seems to do a better job of rendering pages (handling CSS, etc.) then WebCore.

sure apple gives back, but they should also be keeping up with the latest developments too.

Re:changes to KHTML?

[Tukla]

I think that the LGPL means that Apple doesn't have to release their changes to the KHTML code. At least, that's what I've picked up from all of the Qt (GPL)/GTK (LGPL) flamewars. (And where better to learn about licenses than from a flamefest?)

Re:changes to KHTML?

[weinford]

Please read the license text, it is much more enlightening than flame wars. It states in 2.c that " You must cause the whole of the work to be licensed at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License." This means that you may in fact take the source which is published under LGPL and change it, even take charges for it, but it will always be LGPL, thus open source. At least I understand it this way. The license is an interesting read, since the consider it "lesser" to their original license, the GPL.

Re:changes to KHTML?

[weinford]

Oh, and please read this article about the Safari improvements going into KDE 3.2 :)

/.ed

[CelticWhisper]

I never thought the day would come, but I just tried to run Software Update, and was told the "server is unavailable." Has Apple been Slashdotted?

Re:/.ed

[spoodie]

Since upgrading to Panther a few weeks ago I've experienced this problem several times, although it's fine at the second attempt so I've not worried about it too much.

Re:/.ed

[code shady]

i had this same problem after i installed privoxy. apparently if you try to run software update with an http proxy set up in your system prefences, software update will not work. if you just disable the proxy and run software update, it will work just fine.

Delete..

[CoolMoDee]

Can anyone enlighten me on the advantages of always having to mouse to the upper left-hand corner to go to the previous page?

If you press "delete" it will go back to the previous page. I couldn't live without it...

Re:Delete..

[Anonymous Coward]

Or apple and the left/right cursors for back/fwd

its not fucking rocket science

Re:Delete..

[calstraycat]

As I stated in my post, I am aware of the ability of navigating from the keyboard and I do use that often. However, I often prefer to kick back and just navigate with the mouse. Under those conditions, I must always mouse over to the back/forward buttons.

And, hey, it's not fucking rocket science to read the damn post before you shoot your mouth off.

Re:Delete..

[rixstep]

If you press "delete" it will go back to the previous page.

Seems logical to me.

About as logical as dragging CDs to the Trash to eject, or clicking a Start button to end a session.

Re:Delete..

[squiggleslash]

In fairness, this particular "standard" comes from Windows 95. If you want to move back (or, if you're not in browser mode, open the parent folder in a window), in '95 (and its descedents) you hit backspace and it'd do it.

Not a lot of people know that.

Middle Button doesn't open Tabs

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't get the middle button to open tabs any more. Used to be, I middle-click a link and get it in a tab. Now the middle button hilights the link but no tab opens! AAAAAAH! Got to go back to two-handed browsing, 'cause I can't stand browsing with contextual menus.

I wonder how this will affect the agent logs of pr0n sites?

Re:Middle Button doesn't open Tabs

[Llywelyn]

Still works here. I've had no problems with it.

Re:Middle Button doesn't open Tabs

[bwhaley]

With my Microsoft Intellimouse, I have it setup to do a "Command-Click" when I click with the middle mouse button. You can do this through the Microsoft Mouse icon in System Preferences. This lets me middle-click to open a tab.

But Safari DOESN'T work...

[Anonymous Coward]

well with Java or many on-line bank accounts. $129 per year for the honor of being in the Apple beta software program is looking less and less like a deal. When you purchase a flawed OS and browser less than a year ago, the expectation is the publisher will provide upgrades to the flawed product. Apple is not doing that and is losing me as an advocate and customer.
We keep hearing the TCO of ownership for Apple hardware is lower than Microsoft/Intel but at least Microsoft off sets the software cost by providing free upgrades and enhancements to the browsers. I don't by Apple's excuses when an Windows 98 install, that can with IE 3.0 be upgraded without cost to IE 6.x
I get the feeling Apple is prepared to move to a true enterprise licensing model but force it on individual users in that you purchase the unrestricted license but must purchase yearly software and support subscriptions (similiar to Checkpoint firewall products). Licensing practices like these will send many users, like myself, back to a company like Microsoft that provides long-term software support.

Re:But Safari DOESN'T work...

[Anonymous Coward]

Win98 came with ie4. That really doesn't change the arguement. I was a little annoyed when I found out ie6 wouldn't run on windows 95, we still use it at work, but I got over it quickly. After all, it was an 8 year old OS at the time. If I had to pay for an upgrade to get any software to work after one year, I'd be pissed. I would not upgrade and I would find an alternative.

Damnit. When will we get ...

[torpor]

... 'session save' capabilities? Or, can we already do this with Safari, and I'm just clueless?

What I'm talking about is that when you close Safari, it remembers all your current tabs, all your windows, all your sites, and then when you re-launch it, it restores the whole 'session' to the way it was ... I can't freakin' believe that browsers don't have this as a standard feature, but oh well.

Guess I should just dl the source and whack it in there myself... trouble is, I'm not sure I haven't overlooked how to do this yet ...

Printing of background images ...

[zbaron]

... has also been disabled. This used to cause me no end of pain because a job tracking tool we use has this nice speckled background image -- very nice when viewed in the browser, but when printed produces very large postscript output and a 20 to 30 minute wait for the HP to finally produce some output. It can of course be turned back on by selecting the 'Safari' option in the Print dialog box.

+1 Debunking skillz

[Zhe Mappel]

Mod AC parent up.

Re:Damnit. When will we get ...

[Chucker23N]

Safari is not open source. The backend is. OMNIweb, based off the same backend, features sessions.

Debian Anyone ?

[shidda]

I am a newish MAC user, I bought the 12" power book when it first came out. I am very happy with it. Before I recieved my Powerbook I had allready decided to install Debian on it. However after using Mac OSX and finding out it was not to hard to get linux apps working (using Fink), I decided to give it a try.

My system came loaded with Jaguar, so i had never bought a operating system from Apple. Panther was the first upgrade available to me.

It all started when I wanted to download the latest version of X11 for Jaguar from the Apple site. Alas it was no where to be found! I then found the previous version on a web site. But that is not the point. I looked on the site just within a week of Panther coming out.

Now Safari and Java. For heavens sake Jaguar is not even that old.

All of these things are pushing me more in the direction og getting rid of OSX and installing Debian.

If this is how Apple is going to treat its customers I think they have to reconsider their stratergy.

Has anyone else been thinking of deleting OSX and installing Debian ?

I reliase these are minor things at the moment, but put all of them together and they do not seem so minor. As allways it is the princple of the matter which is in question.

Regards Haz

Re:Debian Anyone ?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the price of advancement.

You either continue to use your system with the feature set it has or you upgrade. System requirements change. It's the same with any OS.

Things just happen a little faster on Mac OS sometimes. If you don't like the speed at which Apple innovates and comes up with new software and ideas switch to something else.

As it happens Apple added a shed load of extra stuff to help developers in Panther. This leaves developers with a decision to make: use the new stuff which makes life alot easier but at the expense of compatibility with older versions of the OS, or do things the old more difficult, yet more compatible way.

Does it still have the 60 second time out?

[severed]

I haven't fully experimented with 1.2 yet. Does anyone know if they did something about the page load time out? It would be nice if they just added it to the preferences panel. I shouldn't have to run an additional program just to change it.

Re:Does it still have the 60 second time out?

[Lao-Tzu]

Yes, it still has the 60 second page load time out.

OmniWeb 5.0 Public Beta

[jjc2222]

For people interested in an alternative to Safari, the Omni Group just released the first public beta of OmniWeb 5.0. It has some cool new features including a particularly nice tabs implementation, a (IMHO) more flexible interpretation of Apple's SnapBack, and site-specific preferences.

I don't mean to sound like an advertisement, and to be sure, OmniWeb has its quirks, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Here is a link.

Re:OmniWeb 5.0 Public Beta

[dwightk]

I tried it out, and it is pretty nice... The only catch for me is I have about 100 cookies in safari with passwords I can't remember.

If anyone wants me to pay to stop using a free product (mail.app, safari, etc...) they should have a seamless import from those applications so that all of the rules and cookies and stuff are taken care of.

Re:OmniWeb 5.0 Public Beta

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't mean to sound like an advertisement

DEAR WHORES OF OMNI.

We don't want your fucking messing around here. Omni sucks, worse than ever, and you don't deserve to breathe.

And as for you modders in collusion with them, you don't even deserve to expire by such a kind method.

If you feel this latest non-product by the biggest software failure ever is worth mentioning, then submit it to slashdot and see if they make a story out of it.

THANK YOU.

Re:OmniWeb 5.0 Public Beta

[bar-agent]

Those passwords might be in your keychain. If so, OmniWeb should pick them up.

What about the Cache?

[kev0153]

Looks like no changes to the cache. I had to turn the whole thing off to make some dynamic pages work right.

Fonts look much better in many of the pages I vist. The menu bar finally looks right on the bank webpage.

Re:What about the Cache?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you site the links please?

Re:What about the Cache?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Cite."

Re:What about the Cache?

[kev0153]

Links to what? The dynamic pages? I can't really they are adminstration pages for a photogallery and web forum that I run.

Direct from mouse is best

[jcsehak]

Go out and get yourself a Microsoft 5-button (w/scroll wheel) mouse. The forth button goes back (you don't evven have to configure it) and the 5th goes forward. It improves your web browsing experience like, eighteen fold. Best 30 bucks or so you could spend on your mac.

Re:Direct from mouse is best

[Ineffable 27]

This is exactly what I used to do with my groovy Logitech multi-button mouse. Used to, that is, until Panther and Expose' came along, and now I use those two buttons for Expose'. So now would be a very good time for Safari to incorporate context-menu navigation.

As long as they don't incorporate a browser pet peeve of mine - 'Help' as the topmost item in the context-menu. How annoying!

Flash KeyUp Command

[InstantCool]

Looks like they finally fixed the Flash keyUp command. This caused a lot of panic when I made a rock 'em sock 'em robots game in Flash. It would detect keyDown, but not keyUp. Pretty stupid. I guess it's been a known issue since the beta. I wasn't happy hearing that they released it as 1.0 with the bug still there.

Anyone interested can check out the game here:
http://www.ek-g.com/holiday/robofight/index.html

Re:Damnit. When will we get ... [WORKAROUND]

[danigiri]

Yeah, I agree with you on this front.

In the meantime, you can use this simple AppleScript to solve your woes.

DaNi++

incremental output.

[Hallow]

How about supporting incremental output (flushing portions of the page/app to the browser, for example before a long block slow database calls)? The block size safari uses before rendering output is just too big.

Re:incremental output.

[prockcore]

The block size safari uses before rendering output is just too big.

Just for the record, the block size that safari uses is 16k. Mozilla and IE have an initial blocksize of around that much, but after the first 16k or so, mozilla and IE will render byte-by-byte. Safari requires another 16k

Both Mozilla and IE will render byte-by-byte after getting a close body tag as well.

This definately needs to be fixed, it makes safari seem very slow.

What am I doing wrong?

[inertia187]

When I type:

C:\Documents and Settings\Anthony>software update

I get:

'software' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.

What am I doing wrong?

Re:What am I doing wrong?

[Llywelyn]

It's one word, not two.

Or, in your case, just use the GUI: System Preferences->Software Update.

Re:What am I doing wrong?

[ruiner13]

what is this C: folder of which you speak? and i'll be damned if all your slashes are going the wrong way. silly dos user.

Re:What am I doing wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is funny??????? This 'joke' is used soo often, I can't believe people still mod it up.

Re:What am I doing wrong?

[mrjohnson]

nah, it's softwa~1

Use the keyboard shortcuts!

[HotButteredHampster]

I use Command-Left arrow and Command-Right arrow, which are the keyboard shortcuts for "Back" and "Forward". I also use Command-Up to get to the top of the page, Command-Down to get to the bottom of the page, Spacebar to page down a screen, and Shift-Spacebar to page up a screen.

I can't imagine wanting to use a contextual menu to do these things, but that's humanity for you.

HBH

Re:Damnit. When will we get ... [WORKAROUND]

[torpor]

Thank you very much, thats something I've often thought of googling for but never got around to, so its nice to have it!

It just seems irksome to me that the 'browser war' still hasn't solved all the state issues in the design of these things ... M$ vs. N$ was a huge distraction, it seems. I don't know why, but it still feels '92 to have to resort to an Applescript to sort it out ...

Its like the Finder, in OSX (which I use happily), which also has irksome crappy bugs which seem -obviously- easy to fix, and for which I will undoubtedly now find Applescript solutions for. I hate how Finder windows don't just automatically arrange themselves so I can see -everything- in list-view (details in columns) ... I instead have to resort to this slavery of hitting-green, resizing the columns, &etc...

I do miss the control-keypad-+ for the MS Explorer (haven't used MSWin for years...) which does get the window to re-fit things properly... at least with that, it felt like my slave-hit was instead a 'reboot' hotkey, kinda pinball-ish, sort of terminal ...

Odd how those circuitous cmds' stick around. Or maybe it isn't. ;)

Re:X11 and Jaguar

[LochNess]

The X11 you could download for Jaguar was a BETA, and was never intended to be production-quality.

Also, Apple never promised that the finished version would work on Jaguar.

Free?

[sEEKz]

(Excuse my English)

I see a lot of people, who have messages saying things like:

• An update from 10.2.7 -> 10.3.0 is just maintenance, so we want a free os every (year|maintenance)
• we want you to support our previous version of the os as good as the current one, so we can run new software without paying for them

What you're really asking is, to let a company work for you and (thousand/million?) other for free?

Let me clarify some of my thoughts:

Assume you have a company with 100 developers who just released a new version of their OS. The developers worked a whole year on this new OS and are happy they're releasing it to the wild. Because this company has a vision, you want to upgrade them to the new OS ASAP, so everybody can use this new technology. Now there are a lot of clients who say they don't want to pay for the OS, because a step from 10.2.7 -> 10.3.0 is'nt a big step (what's in a number?). It's just a maintenance release they say.

Lets assume a very simplistic view on the costs of making this product:
Every developer makes 50.000 a year, you have 100 of them so the total is 5.000.000. So without any other costs like:

• You'll have to make manuals for the OS (write and print)
• You'll have to manufacture and design the box where the OS comes in
• You'll have to manufacture the CD's
• You'll have to ship all the CD's to distribution centre's and clients
• You'll have to update your website
• ....

You'll have to sell 5.000.000/129 = 38.759 CD's to get even.

Jaguar isn't supported anymore?

Well as a lot of other companies or groups who are maintaining Operating Systems, older versions of the operating system mostly get bug- or security fixes and no new functionality, until the company stop supporting them.

Now assume the market asks for better support for Jaguar, now the company has to support Jaguar and Panther with these 100 developers. For every developer working on Jaguar and not Panther you have to pay, without any income, because Jaguar isn't for sale any more.

Re:Free?

[Anonymous Coward]

You have a point. But in the case of upgrades to components like Safari, it probably wouldn't cost Apple significantly more to make that available to Jaguar users. Whatever Microsoft claim, WEB BROWSERS ARE NOT PART OF THE OPERATING SYSTEM. If Safari is depending on fundamental new features of Panther, Safari is broken. It probably isn't.

Heck, Apple could even charge $10 for a Safari update for people who haven't upgraded to Panther, and probably end up making a profit on the deal.

Remedy

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe that the (execrable) trouble ticket management software Remedy uses this for its web interface. At least, I know it relies on both java and ecmascript, and that before 1.2, all the "links" it presented to safari were entirely blank. Presumably it wanted to do something silly about having the java portion use ecmascript to compose links on the fly.

Now, with reluctant thanks to safari 1.2, I can use this terrible monstrosity.

Safari 1.2 not for Jaguar !

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's very unwise from Apple to leave the former Jaguar OS out with the Safari update. In our organization this is a killer criteria and it clearly marks the dead of Safari as a standard !

There are plenty of reasons not to update to Panther yet (do we need to mention FireWire problems, SCSI instability, backwards compatibility problems with lots of Software and Workflow tools, DB's, etc.).
For many corporate users it is not well advised to switch to a new release (Panther) before this kind of problems are resolved, and this, mind You, usually takes a while. In our example from our 65 Mac's only the latest G5's are up to 10.3.2 already, everything else lags behind (will follow as soon as budget is ready and problems are solved).

It is therefore impossible to use the same version of Safari companywide, which in turn leads us to switch to Mozilla or any other decent product which IS MAINTAINED PROPERLY ON DIFFERENT OS RELEASES, as it should be ! If Apple is NOT EVEN CAPABLE OF SUPPORTING ONE SINGLE OS-RELEASE BACKWARDS - what kind of impression gives that ? It does remind us of a certain company from Redmond, doesn't it ?

Shame on You Apple for this - otherwise good work and go on with Panther.

Printing UPS labels fixed?

[rollthelosindice]

Sorry for the very specific question, but when printing UPS labels from the ups.com web site, safari renders the fonts too small and the label isnt hte propersize. so i have to use IE to do it. that sucks of course. I assume its some sort of fornt management issue. Does anyone know if this releases fixed it and/or if i can resolve this issue with some preference setting?

Re:Printing UPS labels fixed?

[reiggin]

I've never had this problem. What printer were you using? My Epson C82 prints them great through Safari. Been doing it for several months with no issues. May want to look at the printer settings. Or just trash all prefs and start afresh. Good luck troubleshooting it!

Re:Printing UPS labels fixed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Use FedEx, works great! :)

Re:Printing UPS labels fixed?

[hc00jw]

Printing was one of the things that were improved. Don't know whether this will fix your problem in particular, but it fixed all mine! :-)

Address Bar

[bwhaley]

How about a keyboard shortcut to reach the address bar? Anyone know one? In Mozilla and IE (and most other browsers) it's Alt+D (on Windows boxen anyway). I REALLY miss this feature. Any idea?

Re:Address Bar

[bwhaley]

Damn, I just found it. Command-L. Schweet.

Re:Address Bar

[Jord]

And it works even if the address/search bar is hidden.

Re:Address Bar

[Anonymous Coward]

never noticed that - sweet - thanks!

Re:Damnit. When will we get ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Use pith:

(this is different from pithhelmet). It allows you to quit safari, and when you relaunch you get all your tabs/windows back. It also does the same if safari quits on it's own. I wish he kept updating it.

v

YHBT. YHL. HAND.

[nsayer]

The C:\ wasn't clue enough? :-)

APPLE SUX

[Anonymous Coward]

stupid zealots

oh hell yes!

[AssFace]

I had installed the developer preview of Java 1.4.2 because I had heard it might fix problems in Safari - while it did help, it broke tons of other things.

Now that this it out, developers will be movin' on up.

Hopefully this fixes whatever issue my Mac is having where it will show that it isn't using all of the RAM, yet there is a TON of disk paging going on which gets worse over time. It seems to be very related to Safari.

I'm installing it now and hoping for the best.

Re:oh hell yes!

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that your name on /. is ASSFACE and your url is MYCLOWNPENIS.COM makes you somewhat suspect in your claims.

keystrokes

[beaverfever]

cmd-arrow keys left and right for going back and forward.

cmd-up and down arrows will take you to the top and bottom of the page, respectively.

Re:keystrokes

[Anonymous Coward]

Just crusing through and saw this thread so thought I would add to it...Option-up amd down arrows will also take you a screen at at time through a page.

Re:X11 and Jaguar

[prockcore]

The X11 you could download for Jaguar was a BETA, and was never intended to be production-quality.

Also, Apple never promised that the finished version would work on Jaguar.

Well they certainly implied it. Why did they release it as a beta for an OS they had no intention of releasing it for? More importantly, what is in the final version that requires Panther? The beta was certainly full featured.. what feature of the release version requires Panther?

It reeks of bait and switch.

Re:X11 and Jaguar

[Anonymous Coward]

Well X11 in Panther is integrated into the OS. Yes it still has a bug you double click to launch it but that is not needed really.

Since with Panther if you double click the .bin for a Unix/Linux app it will fire it over... or fire it over if you type the command in the terminal. And it seems to me that it ties into the underlying API's of the OS like a "native" citizen.

Panther is a MAJOR upgrade of the underlying parts of the OS in a lot of areas. I do understand your issue with not being able to find the Beta X11 on the Apple site though. I have an original Wallstreet laptop and I am stuck with Jaguar on it. But luckily for me I backed up a copy of the X11 installer in case something should go BOOOOOOM.

Most of the hardware that is NOT supported by Panther are the "old world" machines that do not use open firmware and have some other structural differences under the hood. So I am not at all upset that they are not supported (even though that means that my beloved PB is not going to be able to use the newer stuff). It is a logical hardware cutoff point, a PITA but logical.

No check that... ALL of the hardware that is not being supported by Panther are the Old World machines, thus making them the oldest of the G3's out there other then the Kanga (which was not supported from the start talk about a kick in the teeth they were pretty sweet for their time and still rocking when X came out). And you know I am not even sure that there is a linux distro out there that supports the Kanga. There may be now but I have not checked in awhile.

There are plenty of "evaluation" copies of Panther out there in the p2p world.....

Re:Damnit. When will we get ...

[thatguywhoiam]

What I'm talking about is that when you close Safari, it remembers all your current tabs, all your windows, all your sites, and then when you re-launch it, it restores the whole 'session' to the way it was ... I can't freakin' believe that browsers don't have this as a standard feature, but oh well.

Not to be facetious, but why don't you just minimize it? That's what i usually do. There's not much reason to quit Safari (or anything really) under OS X, unless your virtual RAM is starting to chug...

It took me a while to get out of the habit of automatically quitting apps when you are done, but it really doesn't seem to hurt anything...

Re:Damnit. When will we get ...

[torpor]

Not to be facetious, but why don't you just minimize it?

Because I shut down my laptop when I go home - I don't leave it suspended in sleep, since I have disks that also need to be protected from fault during the move...

It just seems really cheap to me that we don't have 'state management' properly implemented in most typical user interfaces. The "Open/Save/Close" paradigm is crap. Why doesn't the computer just remember everything unless I tell it not to?

I know, I know, plenty of reasons ... but ... at least with a browser, state information could be managed a lot, lot better.

javascript still slow

[bjarthur123]

compared to camino/mozilla, safari is still 3x slower for javascript intensive pages. when is apple going to profile their code?

Re:javascript still slow

[yassy]

i agree. apple never fixed that problem. macintosh java enviroment is sooooo weak since 9.x.x.

Re:Damnit. When will we get ...

[superposed]

I agree with you that it would be nice to have a state-saving option in Safari. I just don't want it as often as you. I quite happily open windows in Safari and let them sit until I have time to come back and read them (days later). State saving is only an issue when I want to reboot my computer for a software update or if it's starting to get cranky (every few weeks).

That said, I come to the main point of my post: As far as I know, your hard disk receives no additional protection by shutting the computer down, instead of putting it to sleep. Someone should correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the hard disk is completely powered down in either case, at which point it parks its heads and is safe to move. (Apple's instructions tell you to wait till the "sleep" light comes on before you move the computer, but after that it's fine.) I've carried my iBook to all sorts of places in sleep mode, and never had a hard disk problem (logic board problems are a different thing...). You might even be putting more "miles" on your hard disk by shutting down and restarting every day, instead of just letting the computer go to sleep. (Although I doubt those "miles" do any long-term harm either.)

New Safari

[mjc_w]

I tried it, and I still prefer Mozilla.

Why a Reboot for the New Safari?

[dukerobillard]

I just downloaded the new Safari, and the installer made me reboot. I'm still a Mac newbie, so can anyone tell me why upgrading a browser requires a reboot of a UNIX box?

Overally, I'm pretty impressed with the Mac--it's the first machine I've used that makes me think there really is something to all this UI hooey. But a reboot for a new browser? Please.

And what's up with only being able to resize from the bottom right corner? Is there really a justification for that?

Re:Damnit. When will we get ...

[torpor]

I just don't want it as often as you.

I guess not. I've become extremely mobile with my computing, but only in the sense that I 'power-manage' on the same computing platform right now out of necessity, and certainly by design. I've got a single disk with all my other sessions/states/environments saved on it, for all other work-related stuff, and I can use that single disk on more than one system...

If Safari were just a 'tad' smarter, I could maintain my entire state, across computing/cpu boundaries (i.e. on not-just-the-same computer at the same location), and live quite happily on just a hard disk. But, when it comes to web-browsing, I've gotten used to just re-googling when I need to, and maybe thats not such a bad thing anyway ...

Some nice CSS and Form enhancements

[Slur]

This version of Safari is starting to show signs of work on forms and controls. When you press the return key in a form the Submit button now lights up for a second, a subtle indicator to reinforce that the form was actually submitted. On the CSS front, font size specifiers now work in form buttons, but not typeface or weight. When they get form control color-specifiers working that'll be pretty nifty.

Broken CSS

[ezthrust]

I was using the following neato CSS code to make the background of my webpage not scroll with the content.

background-repeat: no-repeat;
background-attachment: fixed;
background: url(http://homepage.mac.com/myownbiggestfan/images /background.gif);
background-position: left top;

Now that no longer works.

But surprisingly the banner that I set up to not move still stays put.

Whatever I guess.... Safari pre1.2 was the only browser to support it anyways.

Re:Damnit. When will we get ...

[thatguywhoiam]

Because I shut down my laptop when I go home - I don't leave it suspended in sleep, since I have disks that also need to be protected from fault during the move...

Your hard drive is just as safe when it is asleep; the drive head parks itself, just the same as when you shut down (that little clickl.. whirrr you hear is it spinning up again when waking from sleep).

Re:Damnit. When will we get ... Re:Damnit. When will we get ... (Score:1) by torpor (458) on Wednesday February 04, @11:17AM (#8180160) (http://www.ampfea.org/) Not to be facetious, but why don't you just minimize it? Because I shut down my laptop when I go home - I don't leave it suspended in sleep, since I have disks that also need to be protected from fault during the move... It just seems really cheap to me that we don't have 'state management' properly implemented in most typical user interfaces. The "Open/Save/Close" paradigm is crap. Why doesn't the computer just remember everything unless I tell it not to?

How would you treat Open/Save/Close? I often revert to the saved file when I've gone down the wrong path working with something, and don't want it auto-saving for me.

Re:Damnit. When will we get ...

[torpor]

Your hard drive is just as safe when it is asleep from sleep...

No, not really. The disks I need to protect are not inside the laptop, and I'd rather have everything shut down while moving instead of cables and whatnot going to sleeping disks where the state of the filesystem is un-clean.

How would you treat Open/Save/Close?

Well, the browser should just remember the state it is in, always, across sessions. There's no need for an "Open Save Close" style paradigm ... sure, those functions should still be available, but I shouldn't have to rely on them personally in order to maintain my work state. The computer should do that for me automatically ...

Resize from bottom right

[MacFury]

And what's up with only being able to resize from the bottom right corner? Is there really a justification for that?

The justification is that's the way all mac windows work, and have worked, since it's inception. It's easier for new computer users to have a single place to do something, and not really a pain for more advanced users.

unsupported, and still running

[Anonymous Coward]

I used Carbon Copy Cloner to shoehorn 10.3 onto my Wallstreet class notebook (233MHz) as the installer just told me "no!" This means I have to have 10.2 and 10.3 on separate partitions, both within the first 8G of the drive. So I have a 12G drive with 3 partitions now, and 10.3 running in a 6G partition.

Even with this craziness and total lack of support I found it worthwhile to stick 10.3 on. It's that worth it. And talk about cost effective! I bought the family pack to stick the OS on two other machines, so this third one's free! Family pack for less than the cost of 3 individual licenses with educational discount. Family pack less than the cost of 2 regular licenses.

Perhaps you only have one computer (that runs Mac OS X) or perhaps you just clone your OS license for other OSes, or perhaps you think everything can survive on the Linux business model - but really, the legitimate price of Mac OS X is really reasonable. And the upgrade cycle is like a subscription model but the old version still works and you have the opportunity to skip any upgrade cycle in the subscription. If Apple time-bombed the old OS then I'd be bitching right beside you, but if you're too cheap to upgrade but think you're magically entitled to it anyway; you're just delusional. Get over yourself.

- theed.