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First Canadian High Speed Internet over Power Grid
oO0(MjB)0Oo writes "Sault Ste. Marie, a northern Ontario town, is going to be the first installation of BPL (Broadband Power Line technology) in Canada. As reported in the Toronto Star, wireless access points will be set up along medium-voltage power lines, providing roaming capability throughout the city to all users."
There's sure to be at least one moron that'll fry himself.
Machine9dotNet
It's not "over the power grid" in the way you might think, but just WAPs placed along the grid, connected via a fiber backbone. No IP is going along the power lines...
:)
Still great though
...next time the lights go out in NYC. Some evil Canadian hacker will uncap their powerline modem and lights will dim all along the US east coast.
Couldn't a private individual use their own gear to run their own ISP over PowerLines?
What prevents this?
comment directly in my journal
I believe you mean Canadian Bacon radio.
But I have to wonder whether this will increase the noise on the powerlines. The frequency used on the lines is not given, but don't we have enough 2.4 GHz noise in the air? Do we need some bleeding into the powerlines as well?
Of course, that could be my "the Commons is being raped"-foil hat again.
The previous sig has been removed due to
this can really disrupt wireless communications notably ham commmunications, power lines make for big antenas
The next step is for them to figure out how to send broadband throught the sewer system.*
Dilbert reference
In remote areas like this, shortwave radio is still in pretty heavy usage. I'll be this pilot program will be grounded in short order ;-)
Where's my lobbyist? Right here.
To good old Sault St. Marie. And don't forget your laptop.
So if there is a blackout, its because someone in Canada is using Kazaa?
IT is completly "over the power grid".
The "fiber optic backbone" means their network center.
The line says "From wireless, converted to be transmitted OVER THE GRID to the company's (PUC) fiber backbone to the internet."
It is *precisely* a test of data over power lines.
... for a $1 fee, you can inflict a painful electrical shock to anyone else on the network!
Also, will this cause any other sort of interference? My TV reception (over antenna) is already crap because of Ontario Hydro -- I live within 0.5km of the high-voltage pylons and my TV reception is terrible on VHF because of it.. (during the huge power outage last summer, I was able to very clearly receive stations all through New York state)
I understand due to the geographical and demographical situation, they will be running advertising campaigns warning potential customers to call before they plug their modems into the toaster!
serenity now!
Look at how great this privatiazation of the hydro companies have worked in Ontario - a town in the middle of nowhere has internet! Now if it didn't cost and arm and a leg and rolling blackouts weren't going to become a daily occurance I just might think selling the hyrdo co's was a good idea :P
This does indeed use the power lines. Read more carefully.
+5 my ass.
What I find most interesting is how the last 150 meters to the customer is done via 802.11b wireless. While the guy is right in saying that it will provide roaming capabilities, this represents a huge security (or lack thereof) issue.
Soon Canada will become the true safe haven for all pot-smokers and hackers, it seems. Better plan a roadtrip, boys.
-GrymThese wireless "boxes" convert data so they can be sent THROUGH THE GRID...... and onto the company's backbone.
GRID == power grid.
The backbone is not everywhere.. the "backbone" is just somefiber link they have at a NOC to some other isps.
They are indeed using power line data transmission for this... that's what the entire project is about, and the only reason it is significant.
while under the influence of slashdot??? No this is really cool, so a subscriber could stop on the side of the road with the ol' laptop and grab the latest info, check email, or whatever he/she might be doing. But having wireless access coverage all across the place is just awesome, I'm happy to see things like this taking place and I hope it works well for them.
The company supplying the technology is called Amperion. Their website has a description of the kit probably used in the article.
http://www.amperion.com
Wrong. If you had read the article, you would know that the power company has put 802.11b access points on their power line towers. The access points are connected to the internet over the power grid, but the customers use 802.11b to get data from their computer to the power lines. There is still the possibility of people stealing bandwidth, but if the network is set up properly, stealing would be a lot more complicated than just running a wire.
Karma: Meh (Mostly from meh.)
So, instead of watching TV in candle light, I can surf in candle light. Awesome!
Oh... wait a sec
Free XBox, PS2
For those not following the broadband-over-power-lines debate, the basic problem is lack of shielding. Cable modems use coax cable, where the outside of the coax acts as a shield, and so very little RF gets out. The wires carry broadband internet, but don't interfere with anything. In the case of DSL/telephone, you have twisted pair (or at the very least, two wires running very close to each other). They effectively shield each other (meaning that each generates a field in the opposite direction, and the fields cancel out if you're not too close to the wire). More RF gets out than coax, but it's still negligable compared to desirable transmissions. In the case of power lines, they are, depending on power line configuration and frequency, either a significant fraction of a wavelength apart, or several wavelengths apart. In some directions, you get destructive interference, but in others, you get constructive interfence. In the directions of constructive interference, you have a lot of signal being broadcast. As a result, they act as a directional antenna, which interferes with anything on the same wavelengths as power-over-power-lines.
:)
Signal strength goes a square of distance. That means that if I have an antenna running 10 meters from my house, and I'm trying to tune into a station 10 kilometers aways, that station needs to be putting out a million times more power than the segment of powerline running next to me. Ouch.
This probably won't interfere with typical consumer applications (television, FM radio), because if it did, there would be significant political reprecussions, and it would be banned (in other words, it's probably engineered to operate outside of those frequencies). On the other hand, according to the ARRL, it very likely will interfere with amateur radio and therefore emergency communications services.
My view is that it may be a good idea in some third world countries, with no telephone service, where there are no alternatives for Internet. However, in modernized countries, we're better off spending the few extra dollars to put in DSL on top of all phone lines or sticking with modems for a while longer, than in the short term, sacrificing emergency communications infrastructure, and in the long term, entrenching a system of broadband that takes away a significant chunk of the spectrum, and prevents all sorts of innovative uses of that spectrum we haven't thought of yet. Spectrum is a scarce resource, and it's gonna get scarcer. The population growing, but amount of spectrum stays constant, sans a few one-time improvements from better utilization (there are fundamental limits on signal strength vs. noise vs. bandwidth vs. bitrate -- with antenna arrays/directional transmissions, there are limits on directionality vs. frequency vs. transmitter size -- we cannot improve utilization forever). In contrast, all the benefits of power-over-power-lines are short-term -- we only gain the one-time cost of not having to modernize our infrastructure (maintanance costs of the two possible infrastructures aren't significantly different).
I don't know how this initiative works, but my impression is that it sends broadband over powerlines, and then the last gap is sent via wireless. If this is the case, it has all of the standard problems associated above. If not, I need more information than is in the article to evalute it
Not only the home of the Bandettes, but now internet for everyone!
My kind of town.
You haven't been to Soult Ste Marie, have you?
Shrug... around here they build cell fone masts inside the big ugly metal lattice power poles... i guess it compresses the two eyesores into one.
Here in Ireland, the Electricity Supply Board (ESB) - our State electricity company, is setting up something similar. They have a fibre ring following the trunk electricity routes - it's just fibre piggy-backed on their existing infrastructure.
I'm just amazed they haven't done this ages ago - it puts them at a huge advantage to those who have to dig up stuff and lay fibre from scratch.
Not sure what ESBs plan is to connect this main telecomms artery to anything useful...
-- *~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...
I thought it was on the US border.
Obviously, these are going to be the next 'terrorist' threat to the net, (solar flares affect the power cables and can and have cause outages)
Ok, what's the tech market like in Canada for hard-core engineer level *Nix geeks? :) How do Canadians feel about American Immigrants? LOL
Thinking outside my Head
this is bad because now the power company will be able to eavesdrop on all transmissions destroying our privacy!!
"I DARE you to make less sense!"
I still see many large corporations doing this today... Are they considering the same security problems?
I don't think anybody has been to Soult Ste Marie
It's Sault Ste. Marie
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Just so people not familiar with the place know, the Toronto Star is kind of stretching the word "town" here. Sault Ste. Marie has a population of over 75,000 people.
Also, "hydros" in the article refer to the power utilities like Ontario Hydro. "Hydro" (water) comes from the fact that they get some of the power from hydroelectric damns.
----- rL
Ah yes, a Northern Ontario town, on the southern border of Ontario. South of Seattle. Yep.
Wyant is quick to point out PUC won't be using power lines to deliver Internet access directly into the home. Instead, the company is installing wireless access points along its medium-voltage lines in densely populated residential areas.
These wireless "boxes" convert data so they can be sent through the grid and on to PUC's fibre-optic backbone, which connects to the Internet. Home computers equipped with 802.11b or "Wi-Fi" wireless access cards and within 150 metres of these access points will be able to use the service.
The advantage of this approach, said Wyant, is that instead of being tied to home with cable or DSL service, a power-line subscriber with a wireless card can use the service anywhere in Sault Ste. Marie that's within range of an access point.
INTERNET BACKBONE
- connects to -
medium-voltage power lines
- connects to -
wireless boxes
- wirelessly transmits to/from -
subscribers wifi devices.
comment directly in my journal
"All of Canada is going to be the first installation of BS (Broadband Snow technology). As reported in the Toronto Star, wireless access points will be set up on top of snow hills, providing roaming capability throughout the country to all users."
Seriously though, how can they say this is "BPL (Broadband Power Line technology)" when all they're doing is putting WAPs ONTOP of the power lines.
using System.Awesome;
These wireless "boxes" convert data so they can be sent through the grid and on to PUC's fibre-optic backbone, which connects to the Internet."
Sounds like it's going over the power lines to me, just not end to end.
Um - laws? The government? Private property? Common sense?
I've a great idea. I'm going to start up my own power distribution company. I plan to use the telephone network.
Hey, no one likes Hams anyways. And CB is soo 80s! And why wouldn't everyone have the newest 100GHz phone (More GHz means more chicks). Short-wave? Can I get that on my TeeVee?
BTW, I'm KC2DXE and I bought one of those old 49MHz phones at a Hamfest once. Worked really well until one of my younger brothers broke it.
The previous sig has been removed due to
Nope. You are wrong here. In last month's issue of QST, representatives of the company that makes this stuff, Amperion, invited some folks from the ARRL on a ridealong as they did a small-scale field test. It goes over power lines dude, to 802.11 access points in the neighborhood for the last hundred meters or so.
I can steal Cable Internet or DSL by simply running a wire right now. Who cares?
Canada is a third world country...
I should know I am from Canada and am suffering from high taxes, corrupt politicians, a dollar that is slightly higher than the peso and a navy that consists of a single rowboat with 2 straw pea shooters....
From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
Is there any Ontario town that *isn't* northern?
The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. - Mark Twain
weeeeee well, it's not snowing now, at least down at the buglab.. :P
See that cool remote weather station widget you got, with the remote outdoor sensor? Probably uses 450 MHz to report the outside temp back to the main unit. Baby monitors. Cordless phones, except maybe digital spread spectrum ones. Wireless burglar alarms. Etc etc etc.
All exist by the grace of FCC rules, part 15, which says, "This device must not cause any interference to any other device, and must accept any interference from any other device." That means that if you pay money for it, get it home, and the RF hash from the BPL outside your window blankets the range used by it, and it's useless, you got nobody to cry to. Refer to part 15, FCC rules.
Ok, now, Ham Radio, licensed under part 95 (or part 97? Can never keep that straight) is DIFFERENT. There are specific portions of spectrum carved out and devoted to amateur radio as PRIMARY use bands. If you are not licensed by the FCC under part 95, and you interfere in one of those bands, YOU are required to shut it down.
Lo and behold! BPL in the US is a Part 15 licensee. Guess what? A ham files a notice with the FCC and East Podunk Power Light & Internet needs to punch the buttons that shift the BPL carrier to another set of bands. Then the country sheriff's non-trunked 435 MHz (or whatever) radios become useless in certain areas. A few more notices, a few more shifts, and if they can't stay out of bands they don't belong in without radiating all over the place, and the FCC shows up and says, "Turn it off."
And how tight and non-radiating do you think those rusty bolts and cable clamps are, out in the weather, some of which were last inspected in 1952? Not very, I'll wager. Ever stand near (not UNDER!) a high-voltage distribution tower in wet weather and hear the continuous sizzle? And you think THATS RFI tight??
Call me dubious.
Canadian broadband: also known as eh-thernet.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
He pointed out that SSM is south of seatlle which it is.
You know, you can always move south, just don't forget to leave your Heath Care, Education, peaceful cities when you go you trecherous bastard.
The Amperion unit on the pole uses Wi-Fi through the air for the connection from the pole to the house. All the subscriber needs is a Wi-Fi unit of his own.
There are other power line broadband systems from other vendors that use a special proprietary modem that plugs into the 120v outlet in the customer home and has an Ethernet output.
Al Bonnyman
Community Broadband Networks
If you check one of those common Ontario Road maps, with one side "Northern Ontario" and the other side "Southern Ontario", you'll notice that the scale on Northern Ontario is smaller than that of Southern Ontario. Yet the Sault sometimes just barely appears on the edge of the Southern Ontario map, but also appears on a Northern Ontario map... but the scale is different!
The Sault is indeed at a more southern latitude than Seattle, and it is indeed geographically well in the southern half of the province.
Detroit is at 42 degrees,
Fort Severn is at 56 degrees,
The Sault is at 46 degrees,
Seattle is at 47 degrees.
Granted, most of the time when people are speaking about Southern Ontario, and Northern Ontario, they're drawing the border somewhere along the population rather than the geography. It strikes me as silly though when Ontario-U.S. border towns are considered in Northern Ontario.
The Northern half of Ontario is absurdly large.
RFC3251 - Electricity over IP
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3251.txt
Now THAT'S a beast I would like to see implemented!
Broadband over power line (BPL) systems are economical for rural towns where there may be 40 or 50 homes per mile of power line.
Once you really get into the cuntryside, where line densities are typically 10 homes per mile (or less), these systems are not very economical because of all the repeaters needed. BPL signals attenuate pretty rapidly as you increase distances.
Al Bonnyman
Community Broadband Networks
I can't believe it took that much scrolling to find someone that knows where Sault Ste. Marie is. Aren't all these /. boys from Michigan. The Sault is Northern Michigan, but by no means northern anything for Canada, eh?
I wonder how many people are scratching their heads trying to pronounce Sault Ste. Marie. (sue-saint-marie)
-------
t1deman
The Amperion system uses 3.5 Mhz channels for the downstream channel, and 2.5 Mhz channels for the upstream, both of which are in the 1 to 50 Mhz band. The "last one hundred feet" from the powerline to the customer is WiFi 802.11.
Amperion is a clever system, but in the end it has the smae problems as it counterparts. Because of the need to use different frequencies between repeater segments, it's likely that in any given neighborhood, they'll need to use every chunk of the 1-50Mhz spectrum and will interfere with someone. While frequencies can be reused eventually down the line, the frequency reuse just isn't tight enough, and it makes the interference avoidance plan by BPL providers unviable.
There's no bandwidth growth plan for BPL and the business model for deployment in rural areas is tenuous at best.
BPL is just a roadkill / speedbump on the highway to fiber.
Tired of being "punished" by the Slashdot $rtbl since 2002. I'm now over at http://soylentnews.org/ .
"My view is that it may be a good idea in some third world countries, with no telephone service, where there are no alternatives for Internet. "
You are making the assumption that developing nations posses a quality of infrastructure sufficient to allow for broadband access over powerlines. This technology has been difficult enough to introduce within the developed world with our level of infrastructure, this is not a viable option for developing nations.
1. You need the power company's permission to attach your injectors and repeaters to their medium voltage (typically between 7,000 and 35,000 volt) distribution lines.
2. You need special skills, people and equipment to install this gear without getting electrocuted. (The power companies already have the skills, gear and people -- installing this stuff is easy.)
3. in the U.S. here are a number of OSHA regulations to comply with to work anywhere near a power conductor.
There are cases where non-power utilities are offering BPL (broadband over power line) service, but it's only with the cooperation of the local utility:
Penn Yan Municipal Utilities Board/DVI
City of Manassas Utilities/Prospect Street Broadband
Al Bonnyman
Community Broadband Networks
Hope it isn't this guy doing the installing.
Disclaimer: MINAA (Mummy! I'm Not An Animal!)
There have actually been a number of these fiber in sewer system deployments, usually in urban areas where digging up streets is very expensive (>$500,000 in Manhattan). Scottish Water has a project underway now.
New Orleans is considering a variation on the idea using an innovative "burst pipe" system.
Al Bonnyman
Community Broadband Networks
"Our service can reach into areas that others don't, because the power network is the most pervasive on the planet. It's where the phones aren't and the cable isn't."
This is wrong. BPL is not a long haul technology. It needs to go through repeaters every 200m, depending on the vendor. The economics for deploying this where cable service doesn't exist isn't there, and is infintessimal where phone service doesn't exist. In fact, it's likely they'll have to use telco facilities or fiber to backhaul the data from BPL segments.
Everyone seems to be under the impression that you plug this in to the grid and voila, fifty miles away you have Internet on every wall plug. This is just not so.
Tired of being "punished" by the Slashdot $rtbl since 2002. I'm now over at http://soylentnews.org/ .
Yay, I already live here... good news for me!!!
Nice touch on the IP over sewage... I think I'll call it IPOS.
"They are not transmitting shit over powerlines. They are transmitting over a fiber optic network which they installed with the power lines, then using 802.11b for the "last mile" to the consumer homes.This is not the same thing as the internet over power line debate, with all of the shielding and signal issues."
Wrong!!
The Amperion system uses RF signals injected on the power conductors for the 'last mile' to the Amperion unit on the conductor that then transmits it through the air as Wi-Fi the last 100 feet or so to the subscriber.
Some broadband over power line (BPL) systems use fiber for 'backhaul' from the injection point (often at a substation) to the utilities routers. For instance, City of Manassas Utilities is doing something like that using AFL equipment. The last mile on that system is BPL, however.
("Last mile" refers to the run from the narest aggregation point to the subscriber -- it can actually be more or less than a mile)
Al Bonnyman
Community Broadband Networks
Uh, the... internet... has... been... very... good... to... me...
Nothing for 6-digit uids?
Sigh... please see a map of the world at your earliest convenience. Ontario has a northern part and a southern part. One hour east of the I-75 highway is Port Huron (which is close to Windsor... which borders with Detroit). So we go about as far south as Detroit. And we don't say "aboot"... lol. But we do say "eh".
True, while MS Windows is inherently a security risk an unsecured Wi Fi network makes it a point of entry for anybody regarless of OS.
No I haven't. Has anyone not from there been there?
The step-down transformers located on the pole outside your house would severely attenuate and thus effectively block anything above 50/60 Hz you would put into your home power wiring.
This is why X-10 type devices will work on your immediate neighbors houses, if they are connected to the same transformer as you.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
Unfortunately, this isn't going to be a solution for "Last Mile" broadband in rural areas. As the article notes this is only being deployed in high population density areas in the city using wireless access points to get from the medium voltage lines to the homes. Of course out in rural areas you would end up with one wireless access point serving one household which is unlikely to be economical...
Sault Ste. Marie... Northern Michigan, SOUTHERN Ontario. and Int'l border.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
Ohhh.. I don't think you can totally disown "aboot" -- I am originally from Sault, Michigan, and after being home for only a weekend, I even catch myself saying it (though I think it might better be spelled "aboat"!)
BPL (broadband over power lines) is not economical in truly rural areas where the power utility's "line density" is typically 10 customers per mile or less. The system's attenuation requires to many repeaters for the number of customers.
Unlike Canada, where many small towns are getting DSL, in the U.S., many small rural towns have been written off by the big Bells and there is no broadband available. Even in a really small town, line densities are typically 50 homes per mile, which is ideal, economically for BPL.
The majority of folks in the U.S. that live in what are considered rural areas actually do live in a small community, not on a farm.
Even in big towns, one Amperion wireless unit does not serve that many homes.
Al Bonnyman
Community Broadband Networks
WOW; maby the submitter got it wrong, maby he had trouble understanding the article, maby he just wanted to make the topic sound more 'cool', but he's very wrong.
Were not talking about data over the power lines, were talking about a WAP every 3 or 4 poles, all connected with fiber, so that anyone in the city can get wireless access. Which is damned cool, and I hope my home town (hamilton) has plans to do likewise soon.
So once again, this has nothing to do with sending data over the powerlines, just using existing infrastructure to set up wireless for a city.
-Millions of Monkeys, Millions of typewriters, 6 hours of sorting through faeces encrusted pages to find: This post
Being a frequent reader of slashdot and a resident of Sault Ste. Marie, ON - It was interesting to see the broadband solution the PUC is implementing to be on slashdot. My question is - do you think it will be expanded to rural areas where DSL and CABLE solutions haven't made it? Or is there a great expense involved in expanding this solution as with the Cable Internet? How has it faired in US cities as for deployment to the outskirts? --
I think I need to move.
Good health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.