'Mouse-Tronaughts' to Test Low-Gravity in Space

RandBlade writes "The Telegraph has an article about plans to launch mice into space with simulated low-gravity for five weeks, to test the effects of low-gravity on their bodies. This "will be the first time mammals of any kind have lived in partial gravity for an extended period." Hopes are that this will provide information useful for plans to launch men to Mars, which has one-third of the gravity of Earth."

Comments

First time for mammals

[baryon351]

> This "will be the first time mammals of any kind have lived in > partial gravity for an extended period."

As opposed to those reptilian astronauts.

Re:First time for mammals

[Anonymous Coward]

Mice are true mammals, which lack good forward stereo vision, have tails and a uterus which has two arms. Humans are pseudo-mammals and have features more akin to other orders, while not actually being included in anything but a category all our own, sapiens

Re:First time for mammals

[hokanomono]

The point is: there is no documented experiment of humans living in partial gravity for an extended period.

Re:First time for mammals

[Anonymous Coward]

Gravity is gravity. It's either there or it's not, and in our universe it ALWAYS is. There is no "no gravity" there is just "Gravity", no "partial gravity" either.

Re:First time for mammals

[Anonymous Coward]

Partial relative to Earth.

Re:First time for mammals

[Anonymous Coward]

Were you trying to be funny?

Re:First time for mammals

[dfeist]

Wrong. In an inertial system, there is no gravity; Einstein demonstrated it is a pseudo-force.

Re:First time for mammals

[Anonymous Coward]

this confuses me. could someone elaborate? hasnt skylab, mir, and the ISS been subjecting people to extended periods of time with low gravity fFor the ?

Re:First time for mammals

[rocketsled]

Yeah, but who gets to clean the cage?

Re:First time for mammals

[Wolfrider]

--How about that? Floating mouse balls!
:b

Isn't animal cruelty banned?

[siphi]

I dont like the sound of that, They may be mice and all but dont they have a right to live also? Something could go wrong like!

Re:Isn't animal cruelty banned?

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally I'd rather send George W. Bush.

Re:Isn't animal cruelty banned?

[no longer myself]

That would be redundant. We've already sent monkeys into space.

Re:Isn't animal cruelty banned?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mice and canaries are not protected.

Re:Isn't animal cruelty banned?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need to worry. The chances of this mission taking place in its current form are nil.

From their website
- Estimated cost $15 mil + launch
- Largely student and volunteer workforce

$15 mil only buys you a really cheap class of spacecraft. Contrast this with these facts
- Keeping living things alive in space is much harder than keeping electronics alive.
- Atmospheric entry and landing (as opposed to firey plummet and burn up/impact) is hard.
Both of these things are out of the scope of this level of funding, funding incidentally that they don't have (the website talks about donations from individuals and companies).

Don't get me wrong... it's a wonderfully interesting student project and its going to give lots of people a fun set of problems to think about. But I don't expect to see it fly without a massive change of scope.

Re:Isn't animal cruelty banned?

[Scrameustache]

I dont like the sound of that, They may be mice and all but dont they have a right to live also? Something could go wrong like!

Yeah, the scientist could cut their fingers when they'll disect them later on...

Re:Isn't animal cruelty banned?

[SmackCrackandPot]

Don't worry....the mice will fed extra large rations of low-gravity cheese.

Pardon?

[Wingchild]

This "will be the first time mammals of any kind have lived in partial gravity for an extended period."

Skylab? Mir? The International Space Station? People coming back from hundred-day tours in space, their muscles weak from Low-G muscle atrophy, having to undergo extended rehabilitation and physical therapy to rebuild muscle mass after coming earthside?

Did I imagine all that?

Re:Pardon?

[worst_name_ever]

RTFA... partial gravity != microgravity.

Re:Pardon?

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

I think you missed the bit about "simulated low gravity." They're not going to be in "zero-g" or microgravity.

The point of the experiment, if I understand it correctly, is to determine to what degree a low gravity (as opposed to micro-gravity, which is what the space stations experience) environment differs in effect on mammals from Full Gravity and Micro-gravity environments.

Re:Pardon?

[petabyte]

Uh, we've had partial gravity as well. At night, go outside and look at that big white thing. Several trips there had people walking around picking up rocks in roughtly 1/6th Earth gravity. Granted, that wasn't for as long as these mice will be in orbit, but it does seem to go against "These will be the first mammals ..."

Re:Pardon?

[vidarh]

It doesn't go against it if you bother to read the whole sentence instead of just the start.

Re:Pardon?

[petabyte]

Yes, I noticed that after posting *cough*. :)

Maybe I can be a /. editor now?

We know, we know....

[antani]

mices everywere

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/01 /2 0/2321237&mode=thread&tid=134&tid=160

Re:We know, we know....

[jigyasubalak]

It's "mice" and not mices.

Re:We know, we know....

[antani]

oh, it's a dupe, not dupes, thanks

Mouse-Tronaughts?

[Tirel]

so people in space are what? Homo-tronaughts?

Re:Mouse-Tronaughts?

[NanoGator]

"so people in space are what? Homo-tronaughts? "

That's what we were prepared to call Lance Bass.

Re:Mouse-Tronaughts?

[pseudochaotic]

"Y'all" ain't not no word. Of course, ain't ain't not no word neither.

Re:Mouse-Tronaughts?

[Anonymous Coward]

actually, if mouse-tronauts meant mice that go to space, and people are already called astronauts, i think we need a new name for astronauts because that's just rude. :)

Re:Mouse-Tronaughts?

[ircbuddy]

asl plz

'naut' == 'naught'?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not!

But how long will it be before we see...

[blorg]

Mouse on Mars?

I am very sorry.

Re:But how long will it be before we see...

[holizz]

You're making me reminisce.

Reproduction in space

[tjstork]

Can people reproduce on other planets? Can any earth creature? We can conceivably provide a breathable habitat, running water, etc. But, it is becoming clear that gravity plays a fairly strong role in the development of living things from fertilized egg to adulthood. Perhaps it might be impossible to reproduce on the moon or mars, because there is not enough gravity. Or, maybe you can but there will be a statistical risk of some undiscovered birth defect.

It may turn out that the only viable planet to really colonize is Venus, then, it becomes a question of, what do we do with 10^20 tons of carbon dioxide!

Re:Reproduction in space

[the_2nd_coming]

if anything, babies would be larger due to the ability to grow larger with fewer bad effects.

in that case, humans on the moon would be taller but weaker than earth humans and perhaps one day be diffrent enough that they would be considered a diffrent species.

Re:Reproduction in space

[cowscows]

You build a huge tube from venus to mars, throw in a few pumps, and move the CO2 over to the red planet! Viola! Two planets terrarformed for the price of one!

Re:Reproduction in space

[Pedrito]

Can people reproduce on other planets? Can any earth creature?

There's no reason that human babies couldn't be conceived and come to term in low or even zero-g. Yes, it's been done with other 'Earth creatures'. Besides some insects, there were some fish that were bred on Skylab, I believe. As I recall, the Earth born parents were unable to control their swimming in zero-g, but the babies had no problem. I assume human babies would also adapt natural abilities in zero and low-g that astronauts learn to clumsily do.

But the fact is, human bodies are poorly adapter to low and zero-g for several reasons. Radiation and muscle atrophy are one problem, but bone loss is another serious problem. Thus it's likely that any humans or other complex animals born in zero or low-g wouldn't live very long. Probably not even long enough to reproduce.

The only way for humans to evolve to be able to surivive would be for the conditions of low-g living to be slowly introduced over many generations or to somehow short-cut evolution.

Re:Reproduction in space

[Reality Master 101]

in that case, humans on the moon would be taller but weaker than earth humans and perhaps one day be diffrent enough that they would be considered a diffrent species.

Doubtful. Pygmies can still reproduce with Dinkas.

But then, any sort of isolation between groups of the same species eventually produces different species, so this doesn't say much.

Re:Reproduction in space

[firew0lfz]

"It may turn out that the only viable planet to really colonize is Venus, then, it becomes a question of, what do we do with 10^20 tons of carbon dioxide!"

I've read (in a book anyway somewhere, forget where) of what it would take to terraform Venus (though Mars would be much more easier). Something along the lines of dumping a ton of algea or some other organism that would live off of the CO2... or maybe we could just harvest the CO2?

Re:Reproduction in space

[the_2nd_coming]

pygmies are subjected to the same environmnetal conditions (gravity) as everyone else.....on another planet that has a diffrent gravitational setting....animals and people would develop diffrently much faster.

Re:Reproduction in space

[Richard W.M. Jones]

Can people reproduce on other planets? Can any earth creature?

I don't know, but I'm willing to give it a try!

Rich.

Re:Reproduction in space

[dfeist]

First, radiation is independant of low-g. Although they may of course occur together.

But have you thought about that bone "loss" (much more that the bones will grow less from the beginning) is maybe not even a problem under those conditions? That the human body simply adapts to the conditions of its environment? Bones we need on the earth would be overkill on the moon! Same is valid for muscles.

Re:Reproduction in space

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

I'm quite certain that shortly after the first experimental colonies, live streaming video of such attempts will be available on the internet.

*scurries off to patent zero-g pr0n*

Re:Reproduction in space

[Reality Master 101]

on another planet that has a diffrent gravitational setting....animals and people would develop diffrently much faster.

What makes you think that? Very low gravity might make a big difference, but different gravity isn't that big a deal. It just affects how high you can jump, how fast you can run, how far you can walk, etc. Certainly that will affect things, but why would it create changes such that the two groups could no longer interbreed?

Pygmies average 4 feet; Dinka average 7 feet. That shows how radically different people can evolve in the same gravity, which shows that gravity isn't all that important compared to other environmental factors.

Re:Reproduction in space

[OtakuHawk]

Make lots, and lots of carbon paper.

Re:Reproduction in space

[Epistax]

I have heard a lot about Venus which I must admit is unconfirmed, but very interesting. Supposedly it would be possible to render Venus almost hospitable by use of microbes. A bunch of rockets could simply crash into Venus releasing either genetically altered or natural microbes which will slowly change the global environment.

Of course there are problems with this idea. Do we only get one try, then the planet's screwed? Earth has redundant systems which keep things stable, perhaps Venus has a similar system which would end up destroying the microbes?

I'd really like to know more about this prospect. It seems much more viable than Mars, except that the microbes could take centuries to transform Venus.

Re:Reproduction in space

[100lbHand]

Just use a centrifuge, which would solve all these problems of low gravity on our biology. Require everyone to spend one or two hours a day in a big one exercising, browsing slashdot, or whatever at one gravity. Pregnant women have to spend a little more time.
Using the centrifuges we should be able to retard, if not stop the worst effects of a low gravity enviroment.
Just my two cents.

Re:Reproduction in space

[Textbook Error]

Bones we need on the earth would be overkill on the moon! Same is valid for muscles

That could well be true, however a lifetime of zero-g could mean you would never be able to leave space (so you'd have the same problem, in reverse).

As soon as you tried to land on a planetary body with noticeable gravity, your skeleton would probably be unable to support your own weight. Unless you also underwent significant weight loss - in which case you would find yourself abnormally frail, and could easily suffer a fatal bone fracture to something like your rib-cage or skull (weaker bones combined with lack of surrounding fat/muscle).

Re:Reproduction in space

[Anonymous Coward]

The reproductive systems of fish are sufficiently different from mammalian reproduction that I wouldn't consider them to be a particularly good metric to test against.

The grandparent poster makes a good point about the reproduction systems of mammals - the eggs may require gravity to move from the ovaries to the uterus, etc., etc.. (Someone with the appropriate degrees need to correct me on this if I'm wrong.)

But fish just lay eggs, so naturally a low-gravity situation would pose no problems to the fertilization process. The eggs are just floating free anyhow, regardless of gravity.

-Z

Re:Reproduction in space

[orthogonal]

if anything, babies would be larger due to the ability to grow larger with fewer bad effects.

Thank you Doctor.

But seriously folks, we just don't know.

We do know that evolution makes a lot of assumptions about an organism's environment, and that gravity is one assumption that could be strongly relied on for the last three billion years, from the origin of life on earth until Laika's the dog's first orbit in 1957.

We also know that the genetic sequencer, as long as it is, is nowhere near long enough to provide an actual "blueprint" of the organism being built. The human genome is approximately 3.2 billion base pairs long, but the number of -- for example -- neurons in the human brain is perhaps 100 billion, making for the possibility of as many as 100 billion squared connections between neurons. There is simply not enough information in the genome to specify the type, position, or inter-connections of every neuron in the brain, much less every cell in the body.

How then, is a body built from the genetic code? The short is answer is that we don't (yet) fully know; the longer answer is that the genome does specify certain rules by which certain cells express certain parts of the genome, grow in certain directions, etc.

One typical strategy governing cell growth is a "tropism", growth toward or away from a particular environmental stimulus. Geotropism, growth toward the earth, is almost certainly mediated by gravity (as opposed to sensing the earth in some less obvious way).

It would be amazing if animal embryogenesis -- the growth of the baby organism -- did not involve geotropism to some degree. (We already know that the growth of plants and their seeds do rely on geotropism -- this is how roots grow down and stalks grow up). How geotropism is involved in animal embryogenesis, how and to what extent the developing embryo would be affected by reduced gravity -- all are unanswered questions.

A facile answer that lower gravity would means bigger babies with "fewer bad effects" isn't an answer at all; that is to say, the answer might even (though I doubt it) turn out to be right, but the answer is not reasoned.

Re:Reproduction in space

[Peale]

It may turn out that the only viable planet to really colonize is Venus, then, it becomes a question of, what do we do with 10^20 tons of carbon dioxide!

Make a lot of soda pop.

Re:Reproduction in space

[tgd]

I'm not sure why that was modded up, as its genereally wrong.

To be more accurate, bone loss and muscular atrophy aren't problems in space, they're problems when you leave space. They don't degrade because you're in space, they degrade because you don't need them.

There's NO evidence that medically someone who lived in 1/3g and stayed there would have any more problems than here.

In zero G, sure some muscles will atrophy, the ones you don't need. Your skeleton weakens, because it doesn't NEED to be as strong.

Re:Reproduction in space

[orthogonal]

Can people reproduce on other planets? Can any earth creature?

I don't know, but I'm willing to give it a try!

Rich.

Rich, Rich, Rich.

NASA, given its recent history, really needs more successes to name. Do you really think the first humans NASA will pick to reproduce on other planers will be Slashdot posters?

At the very least, NASA is going to want people with experience procreating -- or those having had the opportunity to procreate -- here on Earth.

Re:Reproduction in space

[Moloch666]

I would guess that the genome directs how cells should reproduce. It seems to define physical attributes, but the brain developes based on enviroment and /dev/random. Possibly retaining physical disorders, schizophrenia, depression, etc.

After reading your post more cleary, I believe you said the same thing I did. So I guess we agree.

Re:Reproduction in space

[isomeme]

Larry Niven, in his "Known Space" science fiction series, solved this problem for asteroid settlers by having one asteroid colony spun up to nearly a full G inside. Pregnant women and families with young children would live there until the basic developmental stages had been completed. Given that you can produce a full G on demand anywhere given enough mass and enough power to spin it up, this seems a viable solution, *if* in fact lower-gee development proves to be an insurmountable problem.

Re:Reproduction in space

[Moloch666]

This is an exciting thought. We've got plenty of natural organisms that could live in that kind of enviroment. If we actually put some effort into it, we could then alter what we have to possibly speed up the process. In result we could use some of the altered microbes to assist on Earth.

All this attention on Mars, but Venus has some exciting possibilities. I was fascinated by the probes that landed there. I wish we would put some effort into. I guess it's a lot more expsensive developing for such an extreme enviroment.

Re:Reproduction in space

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Floating in the womb, surrounded by amniotic fluid considerably denser than water, is as close as most humans ever come to living in 0-g. I suspect that of all portions of the human life cycle, fetal development would be the least impacted by taking place in low gravity. (And pregnancy, and delivery, would probably be a lot less unpleasant for the mother, too.) OTOH, once the babies are born, we're going to have to figure out how to get them lots of exercise so their muscles and skeletons develop somewhere near normally. Adults can always spend more time in the gym to compensate; it's hard to persuade an infant to hit the bench. ;)

Re:Reproduction in space

[fucksl4shd0t]

We also know that the genetic sequencer, as long as it is, is nowhere near long enough to provide an actual "blueprint" of the organism being built.

Mmmmm, so it's just a checksum, then?

Re:Reproduction in space

[DrLudicrous]

I hope your tube is heat-resistent, because when mars and venus are on opposite sides of the sun, guess what happens?

Re:Reproduction in space

[bkhl]

Let's just make a lot of sparkling soda. It's probably a great way to make that crappy recycled water a bit more festive.

Re:Reproduction in space

[the_2nd_coming]

we have evolved with 1G as our gravitational level. if there is a 3 foot diffrence in how we can develop in this environmnet, then in lower gravity, our bodies will propotyionaly increase in size.

Re:Reproduction in space

[orthogonal]

We also know that the genetic sequencer, as long as it is, is nowhere near long enough to provide an actual "blueprint" of the organism being built.

Mmmmm, so it's just a checksum, then?

No.

It's data, but unlike a blueprint, there's not enough information to specify the placement of every cell, or every connection between neurons.

A better analogy (but still only an analogy) would be to a recipe: a recipe specifies the amounts of ingredients, and in the case of a marble (two batter) cake, may even specify that the cake is made of a mix of a chocolate and a vanilla batter, with icing on the top, but it doesn't specify that position (x, y, z) in the cake is made of chocolate or vanilla batter.

The exact marbling of any individual cake is not specified by the recipe and is contingent on random events in the mixing of the batters and the baking of the cake.

A blueprint, however, does specify -- to some arbitrary granularity -- the composition and layout of the entire structure to be built: this section is made of pine, that of oak, penny nails go here and here, a wood screw goes there.

Re:Reproduction in space

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Make a lot of soda pop.

"Welcome to Planet Coke!"

Re:Reproduction in space

[Tachys]

humans on the moon would be taller but weaker than earth humans and perhaps one day be diffrent enough that they would be considered a diffrent species.

So basically they will become elves?

Re:Reproduction in space

[G-funk]

what do we do with 10^20 tons of carbon dioxide!

Ship it to mars!

Re:Reproduction in space

[eraserewind]

Pygmies average 4 feet; Dinka average 7 feet. That shows how radically different people can evolve in the same gravity, which shows that gravity isn't all that important compared to other environmental factors.

Sorry, but you can't draw any conclusion from that fact about gravity's influence, certainly not that "gravity isn't all that important compared to other environmental factors". For the entire of humanity gravity is effectively constant. The only thing you can conclude is that other environmental factors certainly have a difference.

That's why they do these experiments, because up to recently humans have never experienced any variation in their gravitational environment, and so we have no idea how we would react.

Re:Reproduction in space

[monkeyfinger]

Then the martians could warm their hands at the vent.

Re:Reproduction in space

[Lord_Dweomer]

There is a great anime called Planet ES and in one episode one of the characters meets a girl on the moon who was a 'Lunarian', a person who was born and raised on the moon. She looks like an early 20's girl, but in reality she's 12. Apparently the low gravity let her grow larger faster, although I didn't get the reason why she appeared to age quicker aside from size. But she could never leave the moon because her bones were too frail. The environment on Earth would crush her.

Now this is all based on the anime, but it is still very interesting, and I wonder if it has any scientific merit.

Re:Reproduction in space

[julesh]

Viola! Two planets terrarformed for the price of one!

What have stringed musical instruments to do with terraforming? :-)

Re:Reproduction in space

[butt-rock camaro]

Something tells me that the real challenge to that approach would be to find an appropriate algae capable of withstanding the lead-melting temperatures of Venus. I don't imagine the clouds of sulfuric acid would help much either.

Re:Reproduction in space

[Anonymous Coward]

In zero G, sure some muscles will atrophy, the ones you don't need. Your skeleton weakens, because it doesn't NEED to be as strong.

This would leave us at an intolerable disadvantage in intergalactic kung-fu contests.

Re:Reproduction in space

[Theaetetus]

And pregnancy, and delivery, would probably be a lot less unpleasant for the mother, too.)

Would it? IANAD - does gravity have an effect on birth orientation (i.e. does it help the fetus know to turn "head down" for birth?). Would less gravity or 0-g increase the chances of breach births, or even sideways births (which have to be done by C-section)?

-T

Deja Vu

[luigi22_]

Didn't we already do this before in the 60's? And hasn't such research been done on human misions? What's the big deal? It looks like NASA is just fishing for publicity.

Animal Cruelty

[queen of everything]

I'm sure we'll have lots of posts about "animal cruelty". Is it better to test on mice or humans? Which life is worth more? Would it be fair to send humans to Mars and just watch their bodies essentially turn to jello from the lack of gravity? Those that spent time on the ISS are dealing with the consequences of little or no gravity for an extended period of time.

I'm not saying that it is necessarily "right" to test on animals, but from a scientific point of view, it will bring us much closer to knowing the effect of the conditions on Mars and will bring us closer to having manned missions and even maybe a space station there one day.

Re:Animal Cruelty

[roy23]

At least the humans would have a choice.

"Our task must be to free ourselves... by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and it's beauty."
- Albert Einstein

Roy.

Re:Animal Cruelty

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, it would be better to have the humans try it and "have their bodies to turn to jello". we are doing this for the benefit of humankind, not animal kind. animals are not here for us to try things out on and see what happens.

i say we use prisoners on death row. if George Bush is so fond of killing people, at least let them benefit science.

Re:Animal Cruelty

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it better to test on mice or humans? Which life is worth more?

Neither. Worth to whom? Ask most people which life is worth more to them, their life or that of someone they don't know, and they will say their life.

Re:Animal Cruelty

[nomadic]

Would it be fair to send humans to Mars and just watch their bodies essentially turn to jello from the lack of gravity?

I, and the majority of people here would jump at the chance, despite the risks.

Re:Animal Cruelty

[Anonymous Coward]

I, and the majority of people here would jump at the chance, despite the risks.

YOU can turn to jello, I'm for sending the damn mice. Hell, mice are just shit with feet.

Re:Animal Cruelty

[tornado2258]

NO NO! It is going to benefit the animals far more than the humans. What are we going to get on mars? but the animals on earth have less humans ruining things for them.

Re:Animal Cruelty

[Anonymous Coward]

At least it's mice and not rats!

Rats are so cute! And intelligent too!

Re:Animal Cruelty

[AlaskanUnderachiever]

I'm thinking you're right on the money here. I've seen these experiments and I just think there's an absolutely appalling lack of cruelty in them. Where have our pioneers gone? Why, when I was your age a man just didn't feel right in a lab coat if he didn't have a dozen vivisections under his belt by breakfast.

Re:Animal Cruelty

[nEoN nOoDlE]

I'm sure we'll have lots of posts about "animal cruelty".

Nope... yours is the only post about animal cruelty... no one here is opposed to sending those filthy disease ridden things into space. And to answer your question about which life is worth more, I'll have to pose another question: "Which is the life that actually wants to go up there and who has the ability to choose?" In other words, if a volunteer wants to risk his body turning to jello for some scientific advances then so be it... a mouse never had that option. I'm not saying this is animal cruelty, but I don't agree with your argument either.

Re:Animal Cruelty

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact of the matter is that why I would agree that this is pretty cruel to the mice, getting upset over it would be rediculous. Why? Because this is a highly publicized "token" act of animal cruelity, while countless considerably more cruel acts are taking place in labs all over the world as I type, so that would be the place to attack, not just a one-time mice in space stunt.

Re:Animal Cruelty

[Glug]

Is it better to test on mice or humans? Which life is worth more?

From the point of view of a human, of a mouse, or of the earth as a whole?

2 out of 3 points of view agree: The mouse's life is worth more.

Re:Animal Cruelty

[Theaetetus]

Why, when I was your age a man just didn't feel right in a lab coat if he didn't have a dozen vivisections under his belt by breakfast.

These days we vivisect other things, and leave what's under our belts intact, thank you.

-T

I remember doing this

[ReidMaynard]

with those solid rocket kits back in the 1960's.

We did it with hamsters, if I remember the control hamster got fatter than astro-hamster, but since there were just the two hamsters, well ...

Re:I remember doing this

[nacturation]

We did it with hamsters, if I remember the control hamster got fatter than astro-hamster, but since there were just the two hamsters, well ...

You misspelled flatter.

Re:I remember doing this

[sploo22]

Actually, shouldn't that be the other way around? I mean, how would the control hamster get flat?

Re:I remember doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

I realized that... only problem is, the joke doesn't really work then.

Re:I remember doing this

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

I dunno, Sledgehammer maybe?

Muscle/Bone loss

[Richard Allen]

I was wondering if any Slashdotters new if the muscle and bone loss is only a problem if the astronaut returns to earth, or even if they stay in the low gravity environment.

(On a side note, make sure you check out the caption in the article.)

Re:Muscle/Bone loss

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing except recieving about twice a lifetime's radiation in a short period of time...

You mean astromouse ?

[theefer]

The word astronauts come from the greek : astro (stars), nautike (navigation). So astronaut litteraly means star navigator, and mouse-tronaut would mean mouse navigator, which lacks some sense here.

I'd rather have said astro-mouse (star mouse) instead. Or if anyone has the greek word for mouse ...

Re:You mean astromouse ?

[Have Blue]

It may not make sense to a speaker of classical greek, but in English it's acceptable to place an occupation as a noun after another noun to form a single description- a mouse navigator would just be a mouse who navigates, just like a truck driver or a computer technician.

Re:You mean astromouse ?

[Have Blue]

I just realized this post doesn't make any sense. Where did that coffee go...

Re:You mean astromouse ?

[I confirm I'm not a]

Aye, mouse-tronaut just sounds...wrong. As for a geek version of mouse, well, ladies and gentlement, I give you...
astro-maus!

Re:You mean astromouse ?

[NonSequor]

Actually astrum (star), is Latin. And nauta is Latin for sailor. So you need the Latin word for mouse which is mus (pronounced like the English word moose).

Re:You mean astromouse ?

[Anonymous Coward]

maus

That's actually German for mouse.

Re:You mean astromouse ?

[I confirm I'm not a]

Oh damn, the OP said greek, not geek - whoops!

Re:You mean astromouse ?

[boeman]

Yes, but the Romans took those words from the Greeks. So astronaut is certainly of greek origin.

Re:You mean astromouse ?

[Richard Allen]

astropodiki

Re:You mean astromouse ?

[Anonymous Coward]

> The word astronauts come from the greek : astro (stars), nautike (navigation). So astronaut litteraly means star navigator, and mouse-tronaut would mean mouse navigator, which lacks some sense here.

All in all, it's a pretty trivial mouse-take, there's no need to treat the author like some infa-mouse mouse-tachioed villain.

-- Anony-mouse Coward

Re:You mean astromouse ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, it's a lexical abomination like "telethon" and "workaholic".

follow-up napthalene project

[bobbinFrapples]

...effects of weightlessness on mothballs?

Mouse-Tronaughts?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um...is the "naught" part of it some sort of pun on zero-gee (actually micro-gravity, not zero-gravity, anyway) living? Or is it the usual lack of facility with the English language?

Y'all kant spel worht a dam.

Grammar-naught? Grammar-naut? Grammar-nazi?

Genetic Engineering

[d3m057h3n35]

Perhaps this is the beginning of an effort to research applications of genetic engineering to help humans withstand the strains of space travel over long periods of time. Let me explain: Cataloguing the effects of it on mice would allow researcher to the send up genetically modified versions, attempting various solutions to problems such as bone and muscle loss. This would all serve to determine whether or not GMing space travelers of any kind is even feasible or effective, and if it should be attempted on humans or not. Seems like an interesting extension to this plan.

Re:Genetic Engineering

[quetzalc0atl]

as far as coping with the strains of space travel...just make the hot-female-to-male ratio 10:1 and include plenty of ecstasy...

mice don't tron?

[Anonymous Coward]

n/t

They contradict themselves in the article

[blorg]

"Although it will not be the first time mice have flown in space, it will be the first time mammals of any kind have lived in partial gravity for an extended period."

... and then only a few paragraphs later ...

"Astronauts living on space stations have encountered serious health problems such as bone loss and muscle wasting due to their weightless environment."

Oh, wait a sec - it's the Daily Telegraph. Seriously, it's like the British newspaper equivalent of Slashdot.

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[epiphani]

*thwap*

zero gravity != partial gravity

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[nomadic]

Oh, wait a sec - it's the Daily Telegraph. Seriously, it's like the British newspaper equivalent of Slashdot.

So the readers actually do all the work of writing articles, and tomorrow's edition will have the same exact story?

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[Mwongozi]

Or you could try reading the article. Partial gravity is not the same as a weightless environment.

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[Anonymous Coward]

*thwap*

zero gravity != partial gravity

Go thwap yourself then. Gravity is never equal to zero. Every object in the universe attracts every other. If you have a calculator, determine the force from gravity applied to a human on earth. Then, calculate again from 1,000 km away. It's a small difference.

In orbit, you experience weightlessness. IE, if you are travelling at 20,000 km/hour around the earth, and everything else on your spaceship is travelling at the same velocity, from your point of view you experience weightlessness. From earth, watching the spacecraft, everything looks normal.

Go read a high school physics book, will you? Pay attention to frames of reference.

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you are saying is that you are right, even though you sound like a complete asshole?

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice bitchslap!

I wish more people trashed posters of stupid (as opposed to smart and even incorrect) posts and articles.

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you are saying is that you are right, even though you sound like a complete asshole?

Well, it's better to sound like an asshole and be correct, than sound like an asshole and be incorrect.

Dude, this is slashdot. Lighten up.

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[blorg]

... and tomorrow's edition will have the same exact story?

If the story is complaining about immigration or the European Union, then yes, you have a very good chance.

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[lokedhs]

"this is slashdot" is the slashdot version of godwins law.

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[NeoThermic]

>> If you have a calculator, determine the force from gravity applied to a human on earth. Then, calculate again from 1,000 km away. It's a small difference.

Sure! I'm Game!


Now, if a body of mass m is a distance r from the center of the earth, you know that the weight of the body is F given by the formula F=GmM/r^2 The gravitaional field strength is g = F/m = (GmM/r^2)/m = GM/r^2

(With me sofar?)

g=GM/r^2
= 6.7 * 10^-11 N m^2 kg^-2 * 6.0 * 10^24 kg/(6.4 * 10^6)^2
= 9.814 N kg^-1

Notice! We get a value which is gravity at earths surface...

Ok, so with the poster above... lets add on our 1,000 km ...

g=GM/r^2
= 6.7 * 10^-11 N m^2 kg^-2 * 6.0 * 10^24 kg/(6.401 * 10^6)^2
= 9.811 N kg^-1
Yes, we lost all of 0.001 N kg^-1... our poster above is right.

So, how can they make this worth while? Easy. Make them do a larger orbit, so that they are twice the distance r from the earth (notice above, you have to measure from the center of the earth...)

So, lets see how much N kg-1 our mice would have if they were twice as far out...

g=GM/r^2
= 6.7 * 10^-11 N m^2 kg^-2 * 6.0 * 10^24 kg/(12.8 * 10^6)^2
= 2.453 N kg^-1

Anyway, enough maths...
NeoThermic

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[NeoThermic]

>>Yes, we lost all of 0.001 N kg^-1... our poster above is right.

No, let me open my eyes... we lost 0.003 N kg^-1

NeoThermic

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[KPU]

But you assume one mass in the universe. With multiple masses, the gravational fields cancel at points, so gravity can be equal to zero.
Consider a simple two mass system of m and M separated by r. Solve for the distance s from m where gravity is 0.
Gm/s^2=GM/(r-s)^2
m/s^2=M/(r-s)^2
m(r-s)^2=M s^2
m(r^2-2rs+s^2)=Ms^2
0=(M-m)s^2+2mrs-ms^2
So lving the quadratic for s, we have s=-mr/(M-m)+sqrt((2mr)^2-4(M-m))/(M-m)
Now granted this is temporary since the masses will likely be orbiting. It also assumes two masses in the universe but this calculation can be repeated for as many masses as you want and it will usually produce an answer (in the case of far away other masses, a slight movement from this soltion).
Go read a high school physics book, will you? Pay attention to addition of forces.

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[lommer]

Actually, I don't really blame him as even the article fails to make it really clear that there's a difference. Furthermore, the article doesn't even mention how they will accomplish this partial gravity! I assume that they will be using a rotating cylinder of some sort where the cetripetal acceleration simulates gravity, as this is the most commonly proposed mechanism for simulating gravity. Does anyone know of any other way to simulate gravity in space?

I don't know about mice, I'd like to see us construct a partial-gravity space station for humans. Then we can have astronauts in space for an almost unlimited amount of time as they won't need to worry about muscle atrophy and loss of bone mass. The key to make such a project economically viable though, is to make it part of a planned future mars mission. At some point in the future, a set of engines, supply pods, instruments, and a lander could be hooked up to the space station along its rotational axis and the whole thing can then be launched as a mission to mars. Astronauts go there, land, tool around mars for a bit, and then go back to the space station and return it to earth. A simple retrofit of the station and it is ready to be used again on another mission. Whether you want to go to mars again, or on an orbital mission to venus, or even just a quick jaunt to the moon, such a gravity platform could be designed to be a modular living quarters on any space mission.

ANyways, its just an idea.

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[Anonymous Coward]

pedantia

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[Anonymous Coward]

The actual acceleration due to gravity isn't important in orbit. You get a weightless effect because everything is being accelerated at the same speed, so your relative acceleration is 0. So most things in orbit have the effect of being weightless, even though they are all constantly falling towards the earth. There are actually very small differences in the rate of acceleration, so orbits are considered microgravity environments (as calculated above, a 1km change in position causes a relative accleration of about .003m/s^2).

The "gravity" for the mice will be artificial gravity caused by spinning the spacecraft to generate centripetal accelerations. I don't remember the exact rotation rate, but it's about 30rpm. The radius is about 400mm. The acceleration is v^2/r or omega^2*r, where omega is the rotation rate. The desired acceleration is 0.38g (with 1g=acceleration at the surface of the Earth).

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[travd]

Despite what AC says, the grandparent post is correct, as long you use the correct semantics for "zero gravity" and "partial gravity".

"Zero gravity" means an environment where an objects is accelerating at the same rate as that imposed by the force of gravity at that location. So for example you experience zero gravity when you jump of the Eiffel Tower. You also experience zero gravity in deep space (where the force of gravity is approximately zero). Although these like two totally different situations, the effect on the body is the same.

"Partial gravity" that the magnitude of the difference between a body's current acceleration and the acceleration of gravity of that point is greater than 0 but less than 9.8 m/s/s.

For example, standing on Mars you experience partial gravity because in some frame of reference you are not moving, while the force gravity would accelerate you down at ~3 m/s/s. If you jumped on an elevator going up at 7 m/s/s, then would be back to normal gravity.

So the grandparent post is correct when he asserts the accuracy of the original statement:

...it will be the first time mammals of any kind have lived in partial gravity for an extended period...

Since weightlessness = zero gravity, for all practical purposes - mammals have only experienced either "Full Gravity" or "Zero Gravity" - nothing in between (for an extended period of time).

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[homm2]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but when we're talking orbital mechanics, what matters most is whether you're falling towards earth or escaping from its gravity. Sure, distance has an effect on the equation, but if you want to create any kind of partial gravity, you need to be falling towards earth, or in this case, orbitting at 0G and creating artificial gravity by spinning the craft.

Weightlessness is established by maintaining an equilibrium between falling (gravitation) and escaping (centrifugal force), so you can have complete weightlessness in LEO, (like the space station) or at geostationary orbits (like TV satellites).

One way to do it would be to establish a fairly high orbit, and then allow the craft to slowly fall towards earth. The problem there is that it would continuously accelerate and would regularly need to be slowed, hence requiring large amounts of fuel.

Their method is to put it in near earth orbit (weightlessness) and make it spin to create artificial gravity. Not only would it not help to put it in a higher orbit, but they would be wasting precious fuel to get there. This experiment can just as easily (more easily, actually) be carried out at low altitudes.

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[slipgun]

As opposed to those who would rather we just shut up about immigration and hope for the best.

Re:They contradict themselves in the article

[hesiod]

> The "gravity" for the mice will be artificial gravity caused by spinning the spacecraft to generate centripetal accelerations

If only this was being done by Russians, then we could make a "In Soviet Russia" joke about the wheel turning the mice.

Why only mice

[Hao Wu]

Chinese Hamster make better research model. These days Nasa seems racists against asian.

I have always wanted to see...

[HarveyBirdman]

...cats on the moon.

I bet they adapt to low gravity more quickly than any human.

Re:I have always wanted to see...

[Anonymous Coward]

Given that cats already spend half their time upside down on Earth, I'd bet the same. Of course, it would be hilarious to watch a cat chasing a mouse on the moon...

Enhanced Gravity

[vontrotsky]

In high school I did a project which involved growing plants in simulated hypergravity (produced by centripetal acceleration), then tried to extrapolated into the low gravity regime.

Up to 140% of normal, the plants grew faster with increasing "gravity". From this I reasoned that lower gravity conditions (moon, mars) would be healthy for plants.

Of course, NASA's results may vary. Especially when using mice.

Jeff

Re:Enhanced Gravity

[Anonymous Coward]

In high school I did a project which involved growing plants in simulated hypergravity (produced by centripetal acceleration), then tried to extrapolated into the low gravity regime.

Geez, in high school I did a project which involved testing the effects of alcohol on female classmates. That was about as scientific as we got.

What the heck kinda high school did you go to?!

Re:Enhanced Gravity

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, really. I got the feelin that most of the guys actually did that stuff in college and are to afraid to admit it, because for a college project it somehow sucks.

OK

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll run right out and tell the theofacist, wannabe world rulers/oppressors over in that other hemisphere that you dun wanna fight no more. I'm sure they'll give up their twisted fairy tales and settle down just for you.

Now, please drop dead, you spineless, ignorant sack of dog semen.

Al Gore sez

[Anonymous Coward]

Al Gore said: "I invented the Internet. I did not invent Howard Dean".

This was followed by a "Yrg", which was Gore's subdued attempt to immitate Dean's campaign-destroying bellow of rage.

Take that Alanis!

[Anonymous Coward]

'Redundant' mod to complaint about dupe, now THATS irony.

they'll have to keep them selves occupied...

[Digitus1337]

-sqeaks the blue danube waltz to self-

Astronaut is an incorrect word

[Anonymous Coward]

Why did the US Government choose the word 'Astronaut'? This word is misleading: NOBODY flies to stars, it is too hot up there.

People fly into space (Cosmos) and thus the term 'Cosmonaut' is much better.

People believe that the Russians came up with the word 'Cosmonaut' but this is not true, they just used it.

I remember vaguely I read somewhere that Karel Capek (the inventor of the word 'Robot') used the therm cosmonaut in the 30's

Animal Cruelty?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shit I don't want to clean my oven with a product not tested on animals much less wash my hair.WTF is wrong with animal testing?
I mean they are just ANIMALS not people.

Re:Animal Cruelty?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, people are just animals.

Suffering from illusions of grandeur are we?

Greek for mouse

[kyknos.org]

greek for mouse is mys ... so it is an astromys :o)

Re:Greek for mouse

[Anonymous Coward]

greek for mouse is mys ... so it is an astromys :o)

Kinda mysterious. It's all Greek to me...

Re:Greek for mouse

[kfg]

I hate myses to pyses.

KFG

My bad

[blorg]

My point still stands about it being the Daily Telegaph though. Seriously.

isn't this pointless?

[bob_jenkins]

I would have thought the effects of gravity scale with weight. Mice are so small, they're nearly surface-oriented instead of gravity-oriented anyhow. They've got almost no gravity-induced features in the first place.

Re:isn't this pointless?

[io-waiter]

maybe but its cheap, one could tweak their habitat so that they will have to adapt their behaviour, nasa has some real cool viodeos with mice ( or was it rats ) in zero g. I suspect that the point of the experiment is to see if the mice can keep their musclemass and bichemistry in working order, reproduction I guess would be a nice bonus

Re:isn't this pointless?

[Waffle Iron]

They've got almost no gravity-induced features in the first place.

Well, they're only symmetrical about one of the three axes. The asymmetry about the Y axis can be attributed to the difference in entropy between eating and crapping. However, I believe the asymmetry about the Z axis (ears at one extreme, feet at the other) can only be explained as an adaptation to the effects of gravity.

Re:isn't this pointless?

[madpierre]

Hamster + Wheel + Dynamo = Electricity

No more flat batteries in our mars rovers.
And as a bonus the Hamster could be trained
to re-boot the cpu in case of glitches.

Re:isn't this pointless?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean F = MA ?

If by "the effect of gravity" you mean force then yes it is related to the mass (not weight) of the object.

So, yes an animal with a smaller mass would have a smaller force directly proportional exerted on it.

But, the acceleration of gravity due to the planet would be constant regardless of size of the object.

?? surface-oriented instead of gravity-oriented ??

Re:isn't this pointless?

[Capt'n Hector]

Ants can carry huge amounts of weight in proportion to their own body mass. This is not because they have super-muscles that are far better than ours, but rather because the effect of gravity in proportion to the other forces becomes rather weak at such small scales. That's why dust floats in the air, to give another example. Cells in our body don't give a rat's ass (or in this case, mouse) about gravity, either: surface tension and molecular interaction are thousands of times stronger than gravity at that size.

Re:isn't this pointless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you didn't add anything to the discussion, but was able to show that you understand grade 9 science...

what does that says about the mod that thinks this is "informative"???

One for b3ta....

[TehHustler]

I'm thinking, photoshopped mouse-shuttle crews, getting in the nasa bus on the way to the pad, and hopping about on the moon.

Come on you graphics people, don't let us down, this is a comedy goldmine (c) something awful

Humans ARE mammals

[Anonymous Coward]

Women give birth to live children, produce milk and have warm blood, therefore humans are mammals.

Re:Humans ARE mammals

[lokedhs]

No humans ever lived in partial gravity either.

Re:Humans ARE mammals

[God of Lemmings]

Except for that time we went to the moon....

KFM - its preparation for spacefood

[Tandoori Haggis]

When you get to Mars you'll want something to eat that doesn't squeeze out of a tube. Kentucky Fried Mice could be a start. First colonise the mice then
modify them to grow as big as rats.

Yum Yum

Re:KFM - its preparation for spacefood

[Stupid White Man]

Perhaps we should send potatonaughts next.

Clearly we have too much time or money.

[Stupid White Man]

Mice? WTF can we possibly accomplish? Clearly we have either too much time, or too much money.
Just when you thought NASA was doing something worth while, something like this pops out and bites you on the ass.
(Albeit a small bite)

I for one welcome

[Winlin]

our new cosmic ray mutated mouse overlords.

What about Laika?(Russian dog cosmonaut)

[Anonymous Coward]

Russians sent dogs in space in the 50's.
If i remember correctly Laika was the first dog cosmonaut.

Re:What about Laika?(Russian dog cosmonaut)

[Tandoori Haggis]

Indeed. Now there's a thought. In China Chow's, (a member of the Spitz family of dogs), are, or at least were, bred for food.

If China gets men on mars first and bearing in mind that dogs can be vegitarian, we could eat Martian chow.

What they ment was....

[Anonymous Coward]

... This would be the first time mammals would get to try low-gravity sex.. whoohoo!! WTG mice.. you guys are just way too lucky...

Because we want to make sure. . .

[kfg]

that when we spread the rodent infestation of our space ships across the galaxy that the wee ratty things are happy and healthy?

And all these centuries we've been trying to kill any of the buggers that managed to get on board. Just wait until they get into the triticale stores. Then they'll be sorry.

KFG

Re:Because we want to make sure. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

#include "kentbrockman.txt"
s/ant/rodent/

Mars society

[WindBourne]

is behind this. They are planning on succesfully longer trips and at varying amounts. Hopefully, NASA, et. al. will design a platform to place on the ISS which will do this constantly.

john glenn

[stoolmaster]

would not this be a good job for the space monkey john glenn?

Re:john glenn

[Stupid White Man]

Or Bill Clinton. What's he up to lately? Let's send Bill. Hell, most people already think he's on another planet.

Re:john glenn

[stoolmaster]

Bravo!

Great. Vermin in space

[Anonymous Coward]

When does Anne Coulter go?

experiment?

[Anonymous Coward]

experiment? with mice? yes?
well what's the ISS good for then?

meguess that a centrifuge can be placed
on the ISS for that mouse micro-gravity
experiment. why wait until 2006?

anyway ...

How are the mice supposed..

[jigyasubalak]

to feed? The article doesn't say anything about that? With their food floating around, I hope they have trained the mice to swim to their food or all they'll have when the spaceship lands on earth will be a few starved-to-death mice.

Re:How are the mice supposed..

[Anonymous Coward]

1.) it's not floating, there's microgravity, so while it won't be firmly attached to the ground, it will get there eventually.

2.) you can't swim in space. swimming requires pushing against something (usually water), and it would take one hell of a lot of paddling to push enough air to push yourself.

3.) I'm sure they'll come up with some way of feeding the mice. They usually do think of almost everything for these missions, and I'm sure the article didn't want to talk about such a mundane and trivial topic.

dem bones...

[another misanthrope]

a similar program (geared towards Mars) has found that the real show-stopper to all of this extended micro-grav (so far) is our bones. Humans appear to lose bone mass continuously in microgravity, even with countermeasures applied.

Mars Gravity Biosatellite Program

you are wrong

[kyknos.org]

astronaut is of greek origin indeed. latin for star is stella

Re:you are wrong

[scheme]

astronaut is of greek origin indeed. latin for star is stella

You seem to fail to realize that a language can have multiple words that mean the same thing. Astra is a latin word. Take the latin phrase ad astra per aspera (to the stars through adversity) which uses the word astra. For a similar example in English, consider ocean and sea.

Re:you are wrong

[kyknos.org]

but astronaut is taken from greek http://www.bartleby.com/61/71/A0487100.html http://www.bartleby.com/61/56/A0485600.html

proof

[kyknos.org]

proof is here: http://www.bartleby.com/61/56/A0485600.html

now mod me up!!! mod him down :o)

Ann would work Democrat bitches r2FAT

[Anonymous Coward]

to go into spaceliberal cunts aren't smart enough either.

Mice in space?

[FrostedWheat]

They're Pinky and the Brain?

Pinky: What are we gonna to tommorow night Brain?
Brain: Same thing we do every night Pinky. Try to take over the space capsule!

Re:Mice in space?

[HalliS]

I posted this in reply to an earlier article involving mice in space, perhaps it will score more than 1 this time arround:

• 
  I suspect this is one of Brain's ideas to TAKE OVER THE WORLD (that's what they do every other night, why should said night be any different)
  
  Here are some of Brain's schemes involving space (source: this site [usi-rpg.com]):
  
  "Using my own patented Jimmy Brain technique, I have already succeeded in purchasing, with no money down, every apartment, condo, and office space on the planet above the 39th floor...We will alter the Hubbell Space Telescope so it concentrates the sun's rays on the ice caps, melting them...flooding the entire planet up to the 39th floor, thereby leaving me in control of the only usable real estate on earth."
  
  "Tonight's plan involves space junk... There are hundreds of discarded satellites orbiting the earth... Tonight, as all the discarded satellites pass within mere miles of each other, I will manipulate the world's largest magnet to move them into position, spelling out 'Brain is your ruler'."
  
  "Tonight's plan shall unfold in less than one half hour... Those wires I've hooked up to the lab surveillance camera run to a powerful forty megawatt uplink, which I have built from common household tin foil, a standard wire coat hanger, a number three salad fork, and that big pie plate from last Thanksgiving. With which I have located and stealthily tapped into an abandoned CM-2000 satellite orbiting our globe. This idle transmitter was yesterday but a floating piece of space flotsam, but now it is a workhorse. Broadcasting my infomercial to every man, woman, and child. Reaching the earth's entire population as we speak. Ye-ess!! I've compiled the ultimate list of advertising phrases, no one viewing this infomercial will be able to resist making a purchase. And once they've ordered our product, I'll be just a short step away from taking over the world! ... Using my own modification of called-id technology, I have set up this massive computer to automatically answer the phone and store each caller's personal specifics. To keep the computer from overheating, I've hooked up an elaborate ten thousand gallon water cooling system... But the important puzzle piece of this plan... is to get everyone's address - the world's most complete mailing list, because everyone in the world will be on it. Then, we shall overload the global postal system, choking every single P.O. Box and mail slot with gross amounts of unwanted junk mail. The nuisance of it all will surely drive everyone mad. But, I shall be the savior - 'Put me in charge of your world, and I promise to remove each and everyone's name from all junk mail lists.' Jumping at the opportunity, people will only realize too late that I am their new, ever-powerful, and unimpeachable ruler."
  
  Narf!

Re:unsubstantiated claims

[Anonymous Coward]

Then again, so weren't the claims of Saddam's association with Al-Quaeda.

Just don't...

[geekster]

send pinky and the brain out there. They'll probably smuggle a doomsday weapon aboard...

Mice leaving...

[criordan]

Mice leaving the planet... what do they know that we don't?

Re:Mice leaving...

[Anonymous Coward]

So long and thanks for all the cheese :)

Re:Mice leaving...

[KewlJedi]

Ever read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? Exactly.

One difference...

[Gudlyf]

...is that humans won't be floating around in low-gravity with five weeks of their own feces flying around them. Have you ever seen the amount of dung those little buggers put out on an hourly basis?! It's absurd! How do they plan to handle that?

Actually nevermind, I probably don't want to know.

Re:One difference...

[Artifakt]

Foo still falls through wire screen floors in 1/3 G nicely. Even for older experiments in microgravity, a small downward air flow, adding only about a 0.5 cm/second/second to the forces acting on the mouse, was enough to keep things about as clean as most privately owned mice have it.

The Mouse is everywhere...

[jeko]

As my eye caught the first glimpse of that headline, for a split-second I thought I was about to read the Disney had just bought NASA...

Cost of Mission

[Anonymous Coward]

Could it be more cost efficient to simulate an enviornment of partial gravity for 5 weeks here on earth?

Re:Cost of Mission

[Rubyflame]

How?

i think there's been a misunderstanding

[real_smiff]

People in space *are* Astronauts (from the greek astron, meaning star, and naut, meaning sailor).

Unfortunately this means 'Mousetronauts' are people who sail into mice. Right, perhaps someone should call the paper.

Re:i think there's been a misunderstanding

[Zalgon 26 McGee]

So what should we call Richard Gere?

Re:i think there's been a misunderstanding

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Well technically speaking, his gerbil would be an Ass-tronaut.

Re:i think there's been a misunderstanding

[e.colli]

People in space *are* Astronauts (from the greek astron, meaning star, and naut, meaning sailor).

And astromouses are the mouses from stars. Anyone knows how is spoken mouse in greek?

What about "ratonaut"? :)

Re:i think there's been a misunderstanding

[FigWig]

Not sure, but the Hamster was an Asstronaut.

Re:i think there's been a misunderstanding

[NanoGator]

"Unfortunately this means 'Mousetronauts' are people who sail into mice."

I have an illustration right here.

Re:i think there's been a misunderstanding

[Omerna]

Plus "Astromice" sounds cooler and makes sense (in Greek, but still...)

Re:i think there's been a misunderstanding

[Anonymous Coward]

So I guess a Homo-Tronaut would be someone who sails into homos.

Just a means of escape...

[interactive_civilian]

Those mice are just so damn clever.

Obviously, this is simply a means for more of them to escape and take data back to their own dimension before the Earth is destroyed to make way for a hyperspatial bypass route 5 minutes before its task is complete.

Cursed Vogons.

Of course, pretty soon NASA will be wishing that they had gotten us to Alpha Centauri to file our complaints...oh well...at least they won't be bitter for very long...

;-)

Haiku...

[criordan]

Mice is space is good
But what if they procreate?
Count heads at liftoff

Actual low-gravity

[Anonymous Coward]

The Telegraph has an article about plans to launch mice into space with simulated low-gravity for five weeks,

Simulated? I think this is the real thing. Maybe it's hush-hush for the sake of the mice and their families.

MOD PARENT UP

[MtlDty]

The first thing I thought of when I saw the mice/space thing was HHGTTG. And I had to scroll all the way down to find a comment linking the two, AND ITS MODDED OFFTOPIC??

Surely the only reason this news hit slashdot is the obvious H2G2 reference?

Re:MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont worry, that mod is going to get meta moderated to hell by a rabid group of smelly nerds living in their parents basements.. which includes me btw

I will not obey Estes model rocket directions agan

[bullterror]

How come NASA can shoot mice into orbit, but if I launch one up in a model rocket, it's a crime?

This is the type of regulation that makes independant space travel impossible!

I'm gonna go fire up a hampster right now.

Pulling on his tail is cruel, yelling in his ears is cruel, launching him in a rocket is cruel! EVERYTHING IS CRUEL! Well excuse me if I'm cruel.

Re:I will not obey Estes model rocket directions a

[Anonymous Coward]

Sticking him up your ass is cruel too, dont forget that.

Spinning Wheel

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not a large, spinning wheel type station that simulates gravity? They did it in Ender's Game...

Heheh

[Anonymous Coward]

That's about the funniest thing I've read so far this year. Well, maybe excepting the 'Batman touched my junk liberally' troll...

When mouse is in the title at slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

It is more often used in reference to the animal than it is to the peripheral computing device. Search for yourself. Isn't that sad?

And the second time for...

[Anonymous Coward]

...this topic. It's a dupe. Oy!

you fools!

[kguilber]

fatmouse will leave your puny planet and terraform others. your space exploration is futile because fatmouse will consume all other forms of life. FATMOUSE MUST FEED!

Not sufficient

[grouse]

Merriam-Webster claims it is through Middle English, through French, through Latin, and then from Greek.

You can't justify your claim that the "astro" in "astronaut" does NOT come from latin origin.

WRONG

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, he can claim it isn't of Latin origin. The origin is Greek, and the Latin was derived from the Greek.

This Is Good News

[schnarff]

I attended a lecture by Dr. Robert Zubrin, widely known for his Mars Direct plan, this past Friday at the National Geographic Society HQ in Washington, DC, where he made the good point that we need research on artificial gravity for missions to Mars much more than we do research on zero-gravity. Basically, the reasoning is that on a 2.5 year Mars mission, 1.5 years would be in Mars gravity, and the transit time would likely be spent in a 1-G artificial environment, since zero-G deconditioning for a 6-month trip would leave astronauts in poor shape to do their research on Mars once they got there. Since acheiving an artificial 1-G environment is easy through the use of centripital force, I'm glad to see at least the first steps in this sort of research are being done.

Repeat

[Sargerion]

This is actually a repeat article. Not too long ago, the same story was posted in reference to Space.com instead of The Telegraph. Here's the Slashdot: http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/2 0/2321237&mode=nested&tid=134&tid=160 Along with the Space.com article: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_mice_04 0120.html No big deal but i thought it might be worth pointing out. Ok it's not, but...shut up...

MIR

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose that MIS and the ISS and SkyLab never happened? WTF?

Mouse-Tronauts?

[Anonymous Coward]

If mice are mouse-tronauts. That must mean people who go to space are big...

..and then they'll cut them open.

[agm]

What's the bet they'll cut these mice open to see what has changed with their innards?

Re:..and then they'll cut them open.

[Artifakt]

Since they're going to have take a ride on what is essentially a carousel first, I propose we put laser vivisection gear at the end of it (faster and less painful). Some mice may make it past the devices, and try to run. NASA will need to have someone trained to track down these runners. Since the experiment intends to simulate Martian conditions, the mice will be tracking sand with them as they flee, so we could make it more cost effective if the hunters clean that up, too, and we could call them sandmen.

first time?

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

What about Mir?
Those nazis at the nasa doesn't consider Russians as human beings?

That's HORRIBLE!!!

[lux55]

Animal testing is just plain wrong!

...

..

...

(joking of course, just in case someone doesn't get it and flames me for it ;))

No matter which way you slice it, he's still wrong

[grouse]

By that reasoning it is not from Greek origin either, since the very reference he used said that it was from Proto-Indo-European "ster."

eeek eeeek eek!

[nih]

translation - THIS MEANS WAR!

Re:No matter which way you slice it, he's still wr

[Cappy Red]

I wish I could say I was beginning to wonder when PIE was going to come into it. I wish that, and I bow my head in shame for not wondering that.

*honk*

Isn't a moose kinda heavy to be sending up there?

[menscher]

Oh, wait. Mouse. nm.

This just in: ISS taken over by giant mice

[Colonel Cholling]

And I, for one, welcome our new rodent overlords.

I'm saying 50/50

[CMoZ]

hmmm... I'm guessing the effects of low gravity will be somewhere between no gravity (mir, skylab, etc) and earth gravity. I dunno it's just my theory :P

Does anyone know about the contrary?

[Anonymous Coward]

Any ideas or experiments you know about consequences of living under a greater gravity than ours?

Would we bear 2g constantly? Would we develop stronger bones?

We got hyperbaric chambers to test higher pressures, but I can't imagine how to test such gravity conditions, unless we are in space... what if we discover we can slowly adapt to live in a bigger planet?

Planet of the Mice

[tgraupmann]

I can see it now! The mice crashland on Mars and are able to multiply. We'll get there in 10 years where the mission will be overrun with giant rats.

Did they do this on the Simpsons already?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought Homer and Bart already tested mice going into space?

You only added 1km, not 1000km.

[grahamwest]

Your value of r at the Earth's surface is 6400km. Therefore at an orbit of 1000km above the Earth's surface r should be 7400km.

Re:You only added 1km, not 1000km.

[NeoThermic]

Ohh, right, good eyes...
thats the effect of having the units in m in the equation and forgetting that your challenge has been set at 1000km

g=GM/r^2
= 6.7 * 10^-11 N m^2 kg^-2 * 6.0 * 10^24 kg/(7.4 * 10^6)^2
= 7.341 N kg^-1

So a diffrence of 2.473 N kg^-1

NeoThermic

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference???

[deuce_WI]

I've read a whole bunch of replies and would have thought someone would brought up something about them.

In fact, they are the protrusions into our dimension of hyper-intellegent pan-dimensional beings. These beings are in fact responsible for the creation of the Earth.

No wonder they want too explore space too!

-Deuce

Not enough water...

[Goonie]

Basically, the problem is that there's not enough water in the Venusian atmosphere to support those microbes.

A more workable approach, very long-term, is likely to be shielding Venus from some solar radiation using massive sunsails. The place would still be very short of water, though.

Radiation research!

[Cognitive Dissident]

We also need research on the effects of radiation and how to shield against it. Realize that with all the 'experience' we think we have in space to date, only the Apollo astronauts have ever been outside the shielding of the earth's magnetic field! And only for a very short time. They were lucky that no major solar flares occured during those moon expeditions.

More satellites similar to this mouse habitat need to be fitted with radiation shielding of various types and launched out to a distant orbit, but not so distant that they can't be recovered. After we've got several years of data on mice or othr animals living in radiation shielded habitats outside the earth's magnetosphere we'll finally be able to start estimating the possible health effects on humans and designing interplanetary vehicles for humans.

The Moon

[__aagmrb7289]

So, for those of us who believe the moon mission(s) actually happened, why doesn't this qualify?

Re:The Moon

[__aagmrb7289]

Forgot to mention one thing: though it mentions they were "on the moon for a few days", it doesn't talk about the travel there - which was under "partial gravity" for the entire trip, and took a substantial amount of time, each time they went.

New Diet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone else see a new diet fad coming? The new Mars diet! Lose 2/3 of your weight instantly!

First new private space launch?

[silentbozo]

I'm surprised nobody has brought this up:

"The team hopes to send the mice into orbit in 2006 with a Falcon spacecraft, currently under development by SpaceX, a Californian company."

Assuming that the X-Prize launches stay suborbital, this could be the first new privately-built orbital launcher, excluding the old corporate launchers from Boeing/Lockheed, and rockets sourced from the Russians.

That being said, why stop at 5 weeks? Why not send up a rocket capable of holding supplies for the mice for months, with extra room for the inevitable population explosion? You could try to implement features of a self-sustaining ecosystem (a hydroponics tank, for example) to reduce the need to supply oxygen and water for the entire time period.

Of course, if you just wanted to test low-grav, we could probably build a special simulator on earth to spin the rodents up, with the floors sloped just enough to counteract earth's gravity (although you wouldn't be able to eliminate the interaction between the coriolis forces generated by the spin of the Earth and the spin of the simulator.) Doesn't generate cool press like 'Mouse-tronauts', but it could be cheaper for longer-term studies than having to loft orbital payloads on a regular basis.

Re:First new private space launch?

[silentbozo]

coriolis effects, not forces. doh!

Optical is better for low G

[TeknoHog]

Am I the only one here who thought about it this way?

Orbit vs. Lack of Gravity

[matrix0f8h]

This makes me want to question if being in orbit is really the same as a Lack of Gravity(TM).

I know that the General Theory of Relativity (accereration is the equivalent of gravity), but this has yet to be combined with quantum mechanics. So could being in a gravitational field have different effects at the quantum level?

I guess what I am really asking is do we know whether or not gravity (or a lack thereof) can affect the other forces (electroweak, and strong)?

Re:Orbit vs. Lack of Gravity

[DrLudicrous]

Yes and no. In reality what is happening when one is in orbit around an object is that one is falling about it at the exact same rate as one's spaceship. Thus, because both the ship and the observer are in the same frame of reference (even though that frame is accelerating in the planet's frame) the observer feels weightless because his reference tells him he is not accelerating with respect to his frame (not just zero net acceleration!).

Sure being in a gravitational field could have different effects at a quantum level- if you had an interaction potential that was gravity dependent, this would change the eigenvalues of Schrodinger's equation. It's kind of like the broken degeneracy in the Zeeman effect.

Can gravity affect the other four forces? Not really, no more than the electric interaction 'affects' the weak interaction or the strong nuclear interaction.

What about PETA?

[Luscious868]

PETA is going to go fucking bonkers when they hear about this one!

Re:What about PETA?

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Fsck PETA sideways with a chainsaw.

Bunch of morons. "Yea, the human race evolved to be the pinacle of creation and we should all just die out so that we don't inconvenience any of the other life forms."

Fsck that.

Think more poetically

[Cappy Red]

They don't fly TO stars, they fly among them. The major features of the night sky are mostly stars. Most of the destinations you'd probably want to visit are near stars.

Stars, directly and indirectly, are what make the night sky so wonderful to look at.

And if that doesn't bring you around, consider the word "chromosome" and it's origins: "color" and "body." Words aren't required to stay intimately tied to their roots.

*honk*

The mice

[Alphtoo]

Wait a minute here! Has anybody asked the mice how they feel about that?

Now all NASA needs...

[Channard]

.. is a grey cat, an angry black housemaid and they're guaranteed to have kids everywhere riveted to their next deep space broadcast.

They're sending human's into mice?!

[jyg1234]

When the topic said "Mouse-Tronaughts" I thought that they've found a way to shrink humans and send them on the wonderful journey up a mouse's rectum.

As in the word astro-naut (note the spelling as well people!) the "astro" bit means space and refers to where the "naut" is going. Thus by similar reasoning, "mouse-tronauts" would be referring to a person that goes into a mouse.

When can we expect to have the first mouse gall stone landing? (Fully televised of course)

Astromusculus

[Sindri]

Astromusculus would be the correct term for mice on space missions.

Didn't the ants work out?

[sharkey]

Now we'll see if mice can be trained to sort tiny screws in space.

STAY AWAY FROM TROLLTALK

[Anonymous Coward]

I will rape you in the ass (anally).

The ahistoric problem

[UrGeek]

"will be the first time mammals of any kind have lived in partial gravity for an extended period."

I suppose the astronauts and cosmonauts who have lived as long as a year or more in zero gee are just chopped liver to this idiot of a salesman.

Re:Potatonaughts

[Tandoori Haggis]

From Potatoland!

Check out:

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/i100_10409/from/ispace

or
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002RIF/ qid%3D1076359278/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/102-0 181989-2219301#product-details

helmets?

[JThundley]

Why the hell do they need helmets?

Also, the article says: "Then their craft will parachute back to Earth, bouncing down swaddled in airbags in the outback of Australia."
Won't that screw up the mice?