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Hack Your Car
gurps_npc writes "The New York Times has this story about hacking your car's chip. You can get significant horse power and torque boosts (+18 horsepower and +70 foot pounds of torque in the given example), as well as improve (or decrease) fuel efficency. The car companies do not like (surprise surprise) people personalizing their vehicle's programming and warn of burning out your engine with bad code, and voiding your warranty."
I would tinker with the insides of any computer, or any electronic device.
But on the other hand, if I make a mistake with a car I could hurt or kill myself.
I think I will just leave them alone and keep hacking my Xbox and Tivo, I cant die if I screw up my Tivo.
People have been doing this ever since computer controlled fuel injection has been in style.
If you peruse eBay, you'll see people selling replacement chips for around $400 that are supposed to add this many horsepower.
But if you think you're going to get another 70ft/lbs of torque in a Honda Civic by just doing that, think again.
As well, changing these values can be dangerous. I have a friend who quite messed up his Buick Riviera (he added fuel injection) by messing with the values. There was a huge table of values to fill out, and each had to be precicely tuned to achieve the right mix of performance and mileage. This is no easy task.
Vonal Declosion
Why are companies so utterly retarded about these things? They should go out of their way to SUPPORT this kind of thing. It provides zero-cost research to the company, and increases value to the customer. Besides, as long as everyone is in understanding that it voids the car's warranty, why would they discourage it?
The same goes for Microsoft and their crappy console, and the thousands of other companies that blatantly spit on their best customers.
My car would run better if it had a fucking dorito installed in it. Stupid mitsubishi.
I also reply below your current threshold.
When I was taking Real-Time programming we discussed car code. The prof said it has a 7 year development cycle and takes about 2 developer hours per assembly instruction to write, test, and debug the code.
I don't see a hacked code being anywhere near as reliable. Even if it makes the changes you want, your car might end up stalling as often as windows crashes.
Jason
ProfQuotes
That doesn't cover damage you cause by dicking with the computer.
And when your engine wears out sooner, it's not hard to argue that the changes you made to the computer caused it, if those changes pushed the engine harder than normal.
That act is mostly applied to replacement parts, not performance tweaks, especially potentially damaging ones.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
I don't know what he's talking about. My '86 Toyota Camry doesn't have a chip, except where that modded '04 sports coupe flew by me.
Altering Your Engine With New Chips
:P
Hooray, I get to be a whore today!
SIGFEH
The article states that some of these hacked cars are violating state emissions standards. Yet, they also have the ability to reset their cars back to the factory settings whenever they need to. In fact, in some states, newer cars aren't even emissions tested every year because it's presumed they come out okay from the factory.
"But if it wasn't for the smoke, I'd be happy with it," is I think the exact reason why car makers are underclocking the potential power of cars. This could be an enviromental problem waiting to happen if this catches on.
NY Times Partner link (no reg required)
I'd die pretty quickly without my Tivo!
DROS - Open-Source Robot Software
... my 1990 volvo 240.
:)
On second thought, I'd like to see them burn it out
====
Crudely Drawn Games
No different than overclocking and many people have been very successful doing this...
Because we all know an internal combustion engine, with hundreds of moving parts, metals with critical temperature points, etc, is exactly like a CPU.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Answer:
First up: I didn't say that drop-in Electronic Control Unit (ECU) upgrades for otherwise stock vehicles were outright fraud, though some companies in that market have certainly been snake oil merchants. I just said that a drop in chip isn't likely to be good value compared with various actual mechanical upgrades. Powerchip, like various other chip vendors, will charge you several hundred Australian bucks for a new chip.
Now that I've said that, dig this.
A while after I put my piece on ECU chips up on the Web, one Wayne Besanko of Powerchip contacted me.
He did not offer any independent evidence to support Powerchip's claims. Nor did he point out anything I'd said that was wrong.
Instead, he offered me money, plane tickets and accommodation if I'd travel to Powerchip's HQ and write a "white paper" on Powerchip's products.
He didn't say "here's a bucket of cash, if you write what we say", but our correspondence led me to the firm belief that, um, only one viewpoint on their products would be acceptable, were I to take up the offer.
So there's that.
And, again, as I write this, I remain unaware of any proper independent testing that indicates that these pricey drop-in ECU chips are good value, compared with a variety of actual mechanical modifications.
Sure, you can get a bit more juice from a stock engine by goosing up the ECU programming; drop-in chips from reputable companies like Powerchip don't generally do nothing. I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few cars, particularly turbo diesels, that have sub-optimal stock ECU programming, leaning further towards the "green" end of the scale and away from the "performance" end than their owners would choose, given the option.
The particular oddities of individual engines (in high performance cars, at least) may also benefit significantly from custom-tuned ECU maps, even if you aren't going for new cams, an after-market turbo, blah blah blah.
But drop-in chips aren't tuned for individual engines. They're one-size-fits-all. If you want a chip that fits your car's engine in particular, you have to go to a speed shop that'll test your engine and blow an EPROM to suit.
In the vast majority of cars, I think it's quite sensible to say that if you aren't making significant mechanical modifications to your engine, then the money you'd spend on a "hot chip" would be better put towards those modifications (or, you know, spent on the rent or something, but we're not talking about sensible life choices here). I think that even something as simple as a less restrictive air filter is likely to give you more horsepower per dollar than a hot chip.
Even Powerchip themselves admit (or, at least, did admit at the time I corresponded with Wayne; I haven't groveled through their specs lately) that a 15% power and torque gain from a plain chip swap is unusually high. Figures closer to, or below, 10% are common. Some people would question even that - but even if you get a whole
Work is punishment for failing to procrastinate effectively.
I would never drive or be a passenger of a car that is running my own firmware.
Never.
Most cars are tuned for a compromise of fuel efficiency, low pollution, and reliability. So these mods will adversely affect these more mundane automotive goals.
On the one hand, these high performance mods probably turn the car into serious emitter of nasty gases.
On the other hand, the added stress probably shortens the lifespan of the engine and gets the car off the road that much sooner.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
look, I'm as open source, hacker-friendly as anybody, but I'm not sure I agree with allowing people to hack cars, planes, and the like ..
basically, any technology which has the power to kill me, and is used in primarly public places that I roam in.
can anybody else suggest other technologies that are used in everyday life, owned by most people, and used often in public places that have the power to kill me if they happen to 'go wrong'?
"Old man yells at systemd"
Car tuners have been doing this since the advent of ECU controlled cars... I wouldn't even consider this hacking because it so common. Any reputable car shop can reflash your cars ECU and reprogram a variety of variable from fuel tables, transmission shifts, timing, etc. if it's in the ECU it can be reprogrammed.
Also... on a vehicle from the factory with no aftermarket parts don't expect drastic gains, unless your vehicle is equiped with forced induction and the ECU has the ability to control the wastegate. IE. You're not going to get 50hp by 'hacking' your hondas ECU. More likely you'll get 5-10hp... even then it's usually a trade off of having to use higher octane fuel.
I had my cars ECU reflashed to take advantage of higher octane fuel (increased timing) and recieved 13 rwhp and 15 rwlb/ft.
Nothing protects you if you take a sledgehammer to the roof of your car. That's excessively stupid and definitely part of "normal use" so void goes your warranty.
You're okay to get your oil change at Jiffy Lube or your repair part from another maker who tries to duplicate the specs. But, that so isn't what's going on here...
This reminds me a bit too much of the "simple free digital cable PPV device" we see spammers selling. You hook it up, you "buy" as many order-with-your-remote shows as you can for a couple months, and then when the bill comes, you see just your base bill with no charges for the shows your watched.
The device blocks the upstream communciations frequencies so your box can't call home, but allow the broadcast frequencies to pass through so you still get watchable signals. However, after a few months, the party's over. The cable company sends down a signal cutting off your service, and tells you you'll have to let the digital box call home before you can watch anything again. Guess what, the box has been keeping count all along. So you pay full price for everything you thought was free, and you're out the money you spent on a worthless device...
If somebody's selling an unathorized upgrade without being willing to stand behind their product, you better watch out. Something's not right with the deal.
Tivos are probably the most dangerous of consumer appliances to service. Very high voltages (up to 5000 V) at potentially very high currents (AMPs) are present when operating - deadly combination. These dangers do not go away even when unplugged as there is an energy storage device - a high voltage capacitor - that can retain a dangerous charge for a long time. If you have the slightest doubts about your knowledge and abilities to deal with these hazards, replace the Tivo or have it professionally repaired.
Careless troubleshooting of a Tivo can not only can fry you from high voltages at relatively high currents but can irradiate you as well. When you remove the metal cover of the Tivo oven you expose yourself to dangerous - potentially lethal - electrical connections. You may also be exposed to potentially harmful levels of television emissions if you run the Tivo with the cover off and there is damage or misalignment to the waveguide to the Tivo chamber.
Just kidding. I got that text from a warning in a guide to microwave repair.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Partly to combat hackers, many carmakers are using encrypted chips in new models or, like Toyota, have done away with removable memory chips altogether. That has the e-mechanics shifting strategies, either by downloading new software directly into the computer's hard drive or attaching separate electronic devices that piggyback on the factory-installed control module and override it. Some of these devices alter the "rev limiter" that prevents engine speed from zooming beyond the red line or remove the speed governor that limits top-end performance.
3000+ comments meta-modded. 0 mod points awarded.
Lesson for other meta-suckers: Don't believe the hype!
I didn't read the article so it's not 100% clear what there doing but this doesn't seem knew. Changing these settings can cause the engine to die prematurely. While you may be able to reprogram the chip back to factory specs before you get it repaired it's still illegal and immoral. While that Act can protect you in many cases it can be very difficult to prove someone tampered with the engine computers while they can still cause damage. Thus leaving the car companies to hold the bag while you get to screw with settings you may know nothing about. Honestly I can understand that if the change you made didn't damage your car good, but if it did then the reponsibility is on you to fix it, even if you can catch the dealer on a technicality. Being that they can't prove it. This is almost the opposite of the RIAA lawsuits. The car owners are proected even if they did something to cause the damage because there is no proof. Where as the RIAA is lawsuit crazy without concrete proof that any damages occured. This is the horrid state of affairs our government is in. While the DMCA and the powers the RIAA has in the court room suck, it's not fair to car manufacturers who get held liable for some people's deliberate damage to the car. Note: I am not really using "you" to refer to jargoone, merely as a tool for someone who is doing this to their car. Also I do think we should have right to modify these settings, I also don't want to see the car manufacturers to be forced into RIAA tactics to protect there profits.
-NiPs
I keep thinking about getting a Toyota Prius, the ones with Bluetooth. But I REALLLY wish they offered a SDK or API to 3rd party developers. Imagine stepping into your car with your Bluetooth equipped iPod, and streaming mp3s to your car stereo? Or your Bluetooth enabled GPS unit, and displaying it on the cards LCD? Or downloading mileage information for reimbursement, or automatically dialing 911 on your cell phone when the emergency system (airbags/whatever) goes off. They could increase the value of the car untold amounts just by harnessing the power of all the coders out there.
with many of these chip mods, your car will no longer pass emissions inspections.
A car engine is a complex, finely tuned piece of equipment where every variable is carefully thought through - and tested the hell out of over several years by their engineers.
You can't expect to go modifying things willy-nilly and expect only gains without losses in other areas - particularly environmental and reliability. This is especially true where you're modifying things like engine tables.
-
Sorry to be so unclear, but the analogy still stands. It's not everyone that is only specialized in one particular field and doesn't have a clue about anything else...
DrkBr
For the price of a generic EPROM, you could easily get mechanical upgrades that enhances your car even more than the EPROM. If you're going for extreme performance, after all the mechanical upgrades, get a special chip made specifically for you.
Dan from DansData has written on it in a much better fashion than I ever could though...
His main "hotchip" article
Scroll down to the EPROM stuff, he addresses his experiences with "Powerchip"
*Sigh* now the NYT is going to cause a bunch of people to waste money. People that don't know enough about cars are going to get preyed on by companies like "powerchip". Just like people in electronics stores that don't know enough about computers.
As many others have pointed out, chipping a car is nothing new. However, many people have unrealistic expectations about reprogramming their ECU. In the article, they mostly mentioned turbocharged vehicles like the Jetta TDI or 944 Turbo. The BMW owner mentioned was unsatisfied with the change because naturally aspirated (NA) cars don't benefit well from remapped ECUs.
Modifying a car's ECU mainly just adjusts air/fuel mixture, but on a turbo car it can also increase boost pressure. This is where the main hp gains can be found, but is also where you'll likely blow your engine. A NA car will need more modifications than just a chip to get anymore than a nominal power increase. Intake, headers, and exhaust are all necessary to increase airflow to take advantage of a performance chip. Even then you can generally only expect to make another 10hp at the very top end of your hp curve, and you might even lose torque at lower rpms (torque gets you up to speed, hp keeps you there).
The Magnusson Moss Warranty Act covers "aftermarket" parts. Aftermarket means, 3rd party, non-dealer, OEM REPLACEMENT parts. This does not include non-OEM replacement parts. OEM replacement parts are manufactured to the same specifications as the original equipment. A new computer chip, supercharger, or new suspension setup are not OEM parts. Now there is a small caveat to all this. If you install a suspension in your car, it voids the warranty on suspension items, but not on drivetrain, etc. If damage can be traced back to one of these tuner parts, you can sure as hell be guaranteed that the dealer will not cover this, and your warranty is voided for that portion of the car.
You know, it's interesting: in some ways, cars and computers are similar (for example, starting is hard on them). It's worth noting that the people who work on each are pretty much the same: they start playing around with it, and pretty soon they're an expert mechanic or computer repairperson. It's really a matter of confidence and learning, not some mystical knowledge.
--RJ
The reasons are to protect the internals of the engine - so that they last the (at least) 60,000 miles expected of a production, road going car, not the 1 mile needed for a Methanol fueled drag car. For instance, Turbo cars run reasonably rich (down to about 10.5:1) under "wide open throttle", to reduce the temparture of the fuel-air mix to prevent or at least reduce knocking or pre-detination, and to lower the combustion temperature. This is a good thing for the engine - but results in lots of hydrocarbons going out the tail pipe - which is why you have a catalytic converter... Without those, you can end up with blown head gaskets, melted pistons (they are only made of aluminium), bent/broken conrods or even holes in the engine block from con rods making a rapid exit after breaking.
Computer chips don't improve vehicle performance. Stickers, spoilers, and exhaust tips improve performance.
I mean, duh...
This has been around forever. I remember back in high school you could get chips for domestic cars, but they didn't really give you a significant HP increase. Now, a lot of the imports are turbocharged, and in most cases, the computer controls the boost level. The GIAC X-chip I have in my S4 takes the HP from 240 up to 312, and almost 400 ft/lbs of torque. Add a few more mods, like replacing the horribly restrictive exhaust and downpipes, and a few other goodies, you're looking at nearly 400hp and 450ft/lbs of torque. Another thing they do is remove the stock speed limiter, which is usually either 130mph or 155mph depending on the car.
There's a company called AEM that makes a replacement OBDII compliant computer that you can program yourself. They have it for several different models of cars, and a general one that you can splice in yourself if they don't make the harness for it. It's a pretty nifty little device. My friend bought one for his 3000GT and it allows you to remap timing, fuel maps, and just about everything else, and you can set thresholds too (for example, if you see knock, dump more fuel, if that doesn't solve it, back off the timing). It requires a lot of tuning to get it working right, but if you've invested the time and money to make your car put out 700hp, it's something you pretty much need.
The thing that pisses me off, is there is currently no one making "tunable" computers for Audi right now. We're stuck with what the vendors feed us. So if I want to go and put some big ass Garrett turbos on my car, I don't have the ability to tune the computer properly to use them. Since I'd need bigger fuel injectors to prevent it from leaning out, a comparable pulse width with the bigger injectors would supply too much fuel and it would run extremely rich or not at all.
In any case, some of the detuning is done for emissions purposes, some is done to reduce horsepower to get it in a lower insurance class, and some is done to avoid the dreaded "gas-guzzler" tax. Generally, the european version of the same car has way more power. My old Eclipse had a small plastic sleeve inside the boost solenoid, that when removed gave an extra few pounds of boost. The old Chevy CK work trucks had a panel over part of the airbox to restrict airflow, and if you removed it you got another 25hp.
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My stolen Type-R badge on my 85 Toyota Corrola adds 100hp of "looks fast" speed.
I knew a guy back at school in my undergrad who was insane. The biggest geek and hack you could meet, but a very genuine guy. His mom owned a Suzuki, and he pulled the engine control computer PROM and read it. He managed to reverse-engineer the code and actually found errors in it that would make the engine run non-optimally under certain idle conditions! He then modified the code to correct it and burned a new PROM. His mom actually said that the car ran a bit smoother from that point on.
When you have to fix a manufacturer's coding mistake, it's a pretty sad situation. For the privileged few, it's a very nice and interesting hobby.
Manufacturers build in a given factor of safety overdesign to reduce the amount of warranty repairs they have to foot the bill for. They also design a vehicle holistically - The engine will not produce more power than the brakes can handle, the factory alignment won't allow a low-performance driver to get in trouble.
Just because a fishtank valve can give a Supra another 100hp, does not mean the rest of the equation is up to the task.
That said, i've seen some VERY impressive software upgrades in deisel pickups. I only wonder if the radiator is up to cooling the uprated potential heat generated and if the transmission is capabile of living under the added stress.
(in the interests of fair reporting, this comes from a guy who built a 475 hp/500 ft-lb Corvette...and upgraded teh brakes at the same time...only to be stuck with a tranny bill when said motor had it's way with it.)
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
Ever wonder why, year after year, vehicles seem to "gain" HP with the same stock engine? That's because PCMs (power control modules) are programmed to artificially hinder a vehicle's performance. By tweaking timing parameters, shift points, etc., manufacturers can "gain" HP year after year without having to retool for engine modifications.
/. nor the NYTimes to be premier source of automotive knowledge.
Chip/PCM programmers operate by simply modifying the same tables as the manufacturer modifies when they want more HP for marketing purposes. It should be no surprise that the manufacturers are dead set against this.
As for emissions, the new engines and computer systems monitor all aspects of the emissions system. Many states simply plug into the OBD-II computer for later-model vehicles and check to make sure no "fault" codes are set -- that's the extent of "emissions testing." To make an assertion that any modification to the PCM will cause emissions to increase is simply showing one's ignorance as to how today's vehicles operate.
BTW, the OBD-II interface and protocol is an open protocol, available at cost from the SAE. There's nothing "secret" about how these PCMs operate. Of course, I wouldn't consider
You don't get anything for free.
Good for you. I hope when you sell the car you inform the buyer.
The worst of scum are the people who run mod chips in their car for several years, put the original back in, then trade the car in at a dealership.
If you do this, you are really screwing someone. Sleep well now, for karma will visit later.
If you want more power get a different car in the first place. The cars mentioned are not exactly cheap. You could get a second hand car designed to go at those speeds for the same price.
I find the problem with driving a performance car is the fact that you still have to drive on the exact same roads. Oh and the git who is driving twenty feet away from my tailpipe does not understand that if I slam the brakes on my car will stop in less than 4 seconds at 70mph. So he will have run right into the back of me before he reacts to my brake lights.
Just how fast do you need to go down an on-ramp in the first place?
Tweaking the engine does not affect the performance of you brakes or the handling of the car. If you remove the speed limiter you can go above 155mph, but your tires won't be rated for that speed. If you are lucky you will just wear them out fast, if you are unlucky you will get tread separation. There is a reason why tires for supercars cost $2000+ each.
I would like to know how to hack the telephone system so I can use a standard motorola phone. Jaguar want $2500 to upgrade the phone the car came with to a GSM version. Not happening, but I did like having the phone controls integrated into the car controls.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
That's why most serious tuners buy a good used car (preferably driven by grandma) or someone who totaled it and build from there after the warrenty doesn't matter much anymore. Then you can change all the parts you want, and build it to extremes. Both of these reduce the initial investment leaving a whole lot more for aftermarket parts. Note, that in anything other than a deisel (which are currently designed for fuel economy not performance) the gains from just a chip are usually smaller (10%-20% more HP and Torque). Although a turbo gas engine, combined with a better flowing intake and exhaust can see a whole lot more. Most of the engine damage is caused by people too much compression on too lean mixture with low octane fuel, causing detonation. Learn a little about how to prevent this and you probably will not burn out an engine.
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
I once had a problem with my car's computer (it kept on getting a spurious constant 'cold start' signal from a broken coolant sensor) that caused it to redline the engine for a minute or two at random times, regardless of accelerator setting.
Once I was waiting at a Zebra crossing and this really old lady -- the type that is one step away from needing a walking frame -- was walking along. She gets to right in front of me, and then what does my engine do? It ROARS to the redline, and sat there until she finished walking across.
The car was sitting in neutral, with my foot on the brake, so it didn't move at all, and she was safe. But that day I discovered the meaning of the term: 'a dirty look'.
1) Always add fans. Also, consider putting a blowhole in the roof of the car to exhaust the extra heat generated by the overclocked engine.
2) Heatsinks are a must. Heatsinks are available for manifolds, carborators, engine blocks, oil pans, etc. Use them.
3) Don't forget to show off what you've done-- install a clear window in your hood, and light your air cleaner with cool black neon lights so everyone around can marvel at your overclocked beast.
4) Unfortunately, most cars already take advantage of the latest in liquid cooling technology, so there's nothing to be gained there. Some lucky cars (for example, old VW Beetles) are not watercooled, so you may be able to enhance the performance of your classic bug by retrofitting a liquid cooling system.
5) Always wear one of those goofy looking wrist dealies. I don't know exactly what they do, but do let others know that you are working on getting the max power out of your machine.
Yeah, but I've been hit by standard household current and its not that bad really. I don't know if there are any large capacity capacitors in the tivo PSU but that would be the only extreme danger.
"You can now flame me, I am full of love,"
The truth is that turbocharged cars can benefit greatly from aftermarket ECUs, or "chipped" stock ECUs. There are lots of options out there, and gains of 80HP just from a chip are not unheard.
I have verified these claims myself using my own car and the local 4WD dyno. In the case of my car, the tuner claimed a 57 crank HP improvement, and an extra 93ftlbs (also measured at the crank). What I found is that these numbers are, in fact, conservative. I have the dyno plots on my computer and would be more than happy to post them if any critics or skeptics want to be shot down.
And it is already water cooled! Woo hoo!
Many compromises are made in designing the control systems, and a mod chip just selects a different set of compromises. Some of these are:
Of these, manufacturing cost (and emissions, if you're environmentally inconsiderate) are they only compromises for which your criteria are likely to be different from those of the manufacturer, and hence the ones where aftermarket modifications might help. I don't see why the particular firmware in the chip would affect manufacturing cost, so it boils down to the other issues.Ignition timing. Advanced ignition timing may result in higher performance, but also may cause pre-ignition (knock) which will damage your engine unless you use premium fuel.
Fuel economy.
Driveability - throttle lag, stumbling, rough idle, run-on, are all issues of concern.
Emissions. High combustion temperatures send NOx emissions through the roof.
Maintenance intervals.
Longevity.
Manufacturing cost.
Just like with overclocking CPUs there's two failure modes here:
Engine go boom now. Kind of like having a loose heatsink on an Athlon. The only way to get 100 more hp from just software is if you have a turbo engine with an electronic wastegate. You could tell the computer to crank up the boost without beefing up other parts of the engine, but that's a recipe for a french fried engine.
Accelerated mechanical wear. Kind of like electromigration on an overclocked CPU. Metal fatigue and mechanical wear are gradual processes, and drivetrain parts are designed with a lot of headroom so it won't break right away when you up the power. However, even with a stock engine, parts can wear out very fast if you drive foot to the floor all the time. One big problem is CV joints on a powerful front drive car. Take it easy in first gear where the torque multiplication is the greatest, and your car will thank you.
why not extend the control up to a little UI that is accessible from the driver's seat? Assuming the car will respond to "hot" changes in chip instructions, you could, for instance, drive around most of the day in great gas mileage mode, but when you notice you're being chased by Guido the Killer Pimp, you can make an immediate adjustment to max horsepower. After you get away, you switch back to economy mode because you'll burn up your engine if you don't.
who's moderating the meta-moderators?
Years ago I owned a '77 Camaro with a small block 350. I didn't know a thing about cars then. One of my first projects was to try to replace the stock carburetor with a Holley 4 barrel from an SS Monte Carlo. It actually fitted and only required a couple bends in the control wires to get it to work. I cranked the engine and was greeted by this sweet purring sound. Oooh yeah.
About thirty seconds later I noticed flames shooting from the engine. Crap. Thinking it was something with the carburetor, I tried to fix and re-install the stock unit using a carburetor rebuild kit. It seemed simple enough -- replace a few springs, a float, clean some parts. I got everything back together and bolted the rebuilt carburetor into place. Cranked the engine. Sputter. Cough. Then my whole engine caught on fire as gasoline was leaking everywhere. The flames died pretty quickly but it scorched a bunch of parts. So I had to put the Holley back in place. I did, but noticed that the gasket was torn. Hell, I thought, if I tighten the bolts up enough there's no way any gas could leak from the seal...
Was I ever wrong.
What other stupid things have I done?
I once forget to re-attach the lawn mower blade before testing the engine I'd just rebuilt. The funniest thing happened. Apparently the mass of the lawnmower blade is enough to slow down the RPMs of the engine. If the blade is removed the lawnmover spins very, very, VERY quickly. And just as quickly wrecks the engine. Lots of little coat-hanger like wire just flies out. And there's no way to get them back inside. I was trying to tweak the damned thing to spin a little faster...
- Annoying other law abiding moorists
- Breaking the law
- Killing pedestrians
- Impressing young boys
Have I missed something?What ECU? My 1984 Chevy Van G20 doesn't have one. And ya know what? I'm happy! All that electronic MESS just serves to throw more chaos into a system that's designed around EXPLOSIVE ENERGY.
Why bother with electronics, when you can do something that's time tested and proven -- mechanics. For every advantage electronics give you, there's an associated disadvantage -- Biggest disadvantage? More things can go wrong at any given moment in time, and the older the electronics, the more prone it is to failure and the harder it is to come by replacement parts.
This simple maxim is just as true for stock cars as it is for modded cars. Case in point: My 1983 Nissan 280ZX is fuel injected, so it has an ECU. It has a stalling problem, yet all of the mechanics are fine. The problem is electrical -- most likely related to the ECU, but I'm not going to go pay someone $400 to find it, and then charge me a buttload more to fix it.
With my van, since everything is mechanical, it's easy to find the problem... symptoms are fewer when a problem occurs... There's not too much guesswork in diagnosing it.
Want to upgrade? Easy as pie. New cam, intake, exhaust system and a good quality carb. My choice? Edelbrock. Everything's designed to match, so the guesswork's been taken care of.
Top that with an ECU upgrade that you'll pay just as much for as I did for the entire mechanical upgrade, and I'll guarantee you I have a buttload more HP per dollar spent.
And I also guarantee I'll win in any tug of war against your Honda Civic.... Replacement bumpers anyone?
-Phyre
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." -Thom
warn of burning out your engine with bad code, and voiding your warranty
Car manufacturers can be such bullies sometimes. Luckily, there are things such as the Magnusson Moss Warranty Act to help protect consumers.
Does that cover accidental disabling of your anti-lock breaking system and airbags?
Deltron 3030 - Virus (music video)
You really can hack real stuff! Get your hands dirty, try things out, don't just spend all your time in front of a screen. Go to Burning Man, meet babes, do woodwork and risky art projects, try gardening, cook with ingredients you've never used before, make beer, spend time in the real world!
There are things you shouldn't do to cars unless you know what you're doing, and maybe that means taking an evening class in auto mechanics at some nearby high school. Brakes, for instance, are things that you should be really really sure about before doing anything other than looking at them or refilling fluids, and steering's kind of that way. If a car won't stop, that's bad, but if it won't go anywhere, that's not good, but at most it's usually just money and hassle. So don't be afraid of working on the engine. Of course, that was better advice back when I was in college, when cars had real parts like carbs and distributors instead of just computer controls, and the cars I could afford mostly needed to have their real parts tinkered with a lot to keep them happy. I never got really deeply into it, because I wasn't that good at it (:-), but it's still worth playing with a bit, just to know what's going on.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
For those of you who are surprised, let me tell you have people have been tweaking chips for a good number of years. You can get aftermarket chips for pretty much any sports (and not so sports) car. However, the biggest gains are achieved only when you combine an upgraded chip with a number of performance parts such as headers, exhausts, turboes and superchargers. If you do not understand how cars work and have not done any performance tuning, you might be better off by going back to hacking your Linux box.
First of all, there are no cheap power gains. Just replacing a chip will not turn your grocery-getter into a Porsche. Secondly, if you do get enough extra ponies, you will have to upgrade your suspension and brakes; otherwise, I will see you in a telephone pole around the corner. Finally, not every engine can hanle a lot of horsepower, that is, even if you do upgrade everything but leave the block in a stock condition, you will have a greater chance of blowing it.
Normally, you would install any performance parts that you have and then tune the chip so it is optimized for your configuration. Is the chip worth the money by itself? Unless your car has forced induction it is; otherwise, it is a waste. Normally, you have to do a combination of things in order to get a significant increase in power. For example, Stage 1 upgrades include getting a new ECU and increasing pressure in your turbos, Stage 2 would require an additional part, usually an exhaust. Stage 3 may require changing your turbos or getting some upgrades for them; by the time you get to this point, you will notice the impact on your wallet. This varies from car to car, my knowledge is based on what I know about Nissan 300ZX and Subaru WRX.
If you do not have turbos or a blower, there is nothing much your chip can do, but void the warranty.
Also, when you get the stats, make sure that you understand them correctly. Ten extra horses to the flywheel are not equal to the ten extra horses to the wheels. If you are still nutty about all this, take a look what you can do to Subaru WRX, Audi (turboed models) and Corvettes. The latter do not have forced induction but are proven to be very nice when it comes to updated ECUs along with some performance parts. P.S.: Yeah, if you feel like replying back to me and telling that your Honda does wonders with upgraded chips and how it can beat anything on the road. Do not bother, please. I have been there and done that.
Tweaking the engine does not affect the performance of you brakes or the handling of the car. If you remove the speed limiter you can go above 155mph, but your tires won't be rated for that speed. If you are lucky you will just wear them out fast, if you are unlucky you will get tread separation. There is a reason why tires for supercars cost $2000+ each.
Sure, the brakes don't get any better, but if you are capable to handle driving your car at 155 mph, odds are you can handle it at whatever speeds above it that it can hit. As for the tires, as long as you have properly rated tires you should be fine. Besides, nicer tires don't cost $2000+ each. You can get 4 Y-rated tires for around $1500 easily.
"Toyota, have done away with removable memory chips altogether. That has the e-mechanics shifting strategies, either by downloading new software directly into the computer's hard drive"
I hope not, I remember the Top Gear episode where Clarkson tried (and failed) to trash an old Toyota pickup. Imagine if a cars engine management computer used a hard disk, run over the first pothole in the road and it'd be ruined (although it certainly brings a whole new meaning to the term "harddrive crash")
Watch out for the Broken windSheild Of Death.
Let me tell you a true story:
The 2002 MINI Cooper S (a **GREAT** car BTW) was delivered with Engine management (ECU) software V1.3.0. It worked fine.
The 2003 MINI Cooper S was delivered with ECU software V1.3.2. We believe the changes were to accomodate the Diesel version of the MINI that was due to appear in Europe - but there may have been other changes too.
v1.3.2 worked well - EXCEPT when the high ambient temperatures of a Texas summer combined with 'Reformulated Gasoline' (not sold in all US States - and not seen in Europe). With that combination of conditions, the car would roll forwards 10 feet and stall if you accellerated moderatly hard from a standing start. This came to be known as 'the stumbles'. When it strikes, it can actually be quite dangerous because you could in all likelyhood be stalled out right in front of an oncoming vehicle.
Both ECU electronics and engine mechanics are IDENTICAL between the 2002 and 2003 models - so this had to be a software bug.
It took a LONG time to figure out why some cars were stumbling. The owners' clubs first noticed that only 2003 cars did it - then we discovered this was only happening in the summer - and only in Texas and (IIRC) Florida - but then we heard that it wasn't happening in New Mexico. So we initially ruled out the 'high temperature' theory. However, New Mexico doesn't have reformulated gas.
So when we realised that reformulated Gas is sold in Texas and Florida - but not in New Mexico, we thought that might be the issue...but then we found that it didn't happen in New York (reformulated gas - but no high temperatures).
The whole thing was also confused by the fact that the MINI's ECU has adaptive software. When we had a few days of cool temperatures, the problem DIDN'T go away - and you had to run three tankfuls of non-reformulated gas through the car before the ECU would un-learn the stumble.
It's a tribute to the 'community' spirit of MINI owners (and lots of long threads on several mailing lists) that we ever figured out WTF was happening to our cars at all.
It took six months to pursuade BMW/MINI that there was truly a problem (by which time temperatures had dropped and we couldn't reproduce the problem) - and another 6 months for them to fix it and get a software upgrade out.
Meanwhile, the 2002 MINI's were still running V1.3.0 just fine in all temperatures and all gasoline types - and 2003 MINI's were stumbling all over the place.
Owners of 2003 machines were begging the dealerships to downgrade their cars back to the 2002 code - but dealerships were either unable or unwilling to do that - we're still not quite sure why - but it's likely that the security system in the MINI's ECU somehow prevents that.
This is a CLASSIC case where we'd have *killed* to have an OpenSource solution so we could fix the problem ourselves...either by simply reprogramming our 2003 cars with 2002 software (kindly donated by a 2002 owner)...or by doing a 'diff' and figuring out what was actually wrong.
Even without the source code, it would have been possible to do a binary dump from one car to another - but for the fact that these ECU's are protected by a barrage of 'challenge/response' tests (the details of which are a closely guarded secret). If your laptop fails to provide the correct response to the challenge, the car literally shuts down all software functions for THREE HOURS!! This effectively foils any effort to do a trial-and-error test to reverse-engineer the challenge/response system.
So - whilst it MIGHT be dangerous to allow people to randomly hack their cars, there are also dangers in preventing them from doing so.
www.sjbaker.org
If you want more power get a different car in the first place. The cars mentioned are not exactly cheap. You could get a second hand car designed to go at those speeds for the same price.
If you want more power, you buy a cheap car and then aftermarket parts. You pay the insurance for a cheap little 4 banger, but get the performance of a big block v-8. I have a Nissan Sentra SE-R SpecV (yeah that's annoying to say I wish they just called it a SpecV.) It was a bit over $21,000 fully loaded (around $17,000 base.) If I spend $7,000 on performance parts the car will be able to drag against dodge vipers that cost around $60,000 (I think a dodge viper has a 12 second 1/4 mile time, I know some SpecV's with under $10,000 of work that run 11 second 1/4 miles)
Just how fast do you need to go down an on-ramp in the first place?
Faster than the cars already on the highway? I live in Arizona so that's about 75mph, and that's just the speed limit, most of these people do 80-90. And besides don't forget after the on-ramp is the wide open road. Then there's the legal use of performance parts, drag strips, local tracks, auto-x events, tons of stuff you can participate in where just an extra 20hp might make a huge difference (yeah I know in auto-x and most track events handeling is better than horsepower but the horsepower helps a lot.)
Tweaking the engine does not affect the performance of you brakes or the handling of the car. If you remove the speed limiter you can go above 155mph, but your tires won't be rated for that speed. If you are lucky you will just wear them out fast, if you are unlucky you will get tread separation. There is a reason why tires for supercars cost $2000+ each.
No, tweaking the engine doesn't affect your brake or handeling performance. But people don't tweak the engine for that, they tweak the brakes and suspension for that. If you're car can go 155mph your tires are probably Z rated, mine are and they came on a Nissan Sentra, it can't go up to 155 (131 was my top speed through the Salt Flats in utah) and it's an economy car. Sure I did get performance packages but still, the people who will buy these chips will probably have the tires to handle the speeds.
I would like to know how to hack the telephone system so I can use a standard motorola phone. Jaguar want $2500 to upgrade the phone the car came with to a GSM version. Not happening, but I did like having the phone controls integrated into the car controls.
You're probably going to have to do that on your own. I don't think any company will waste the time figuring out how to do that since most of the people who buy that car won't have the problem and there isn't a huge demand on figuring that problem out. Sure if you're lucky someone will do it and they'll post directions online but I'm sure it'd be very difficult.
There are a lot of "open source" fuel injection computers out there (ignition too). If your really interested in making more power and hacking, join on to one of these projects. Perhaps someday someone will make an aftermarket odd fire ignition computer that I can program. In the mean time, check out these projects
MegaSquirt Electronic Fuel Injection Computer
Electronic fuel injection 11
PowerPC fuel injection
"Science is about ego as much as it is about discovery and truth " - I said it, so sue me.
Like my car (a Saturn) which has a down-tuned engine in it. The version of the engine in the Saturn puts out about 180hp, but in the version in the Opel, it puts out 200 or so (thanks GM). Don't know why that is - insurance, emissions, who knows.
Anyway, a company in Florida apparently imports the Opel chips and will put them in the engine in the Saturn - although I've not read a report on effects.
To be honest, I wouldn't do it for several reasons, not least that the bank owns the car; it's still under warranty; its torque and gearing means it smokes most similar cars off the line anyway; and I'm not sure I'd want my family in a modded car!
And beings as it costs $400 for that, plus whatever tweakery is extra, I'd rather drop the money into a bitchin' sound system.
Hang on - Americans don't drive cars, they drive agricultural machinery with leather seats, aircon and cupholders. One of the principal features of this type of vehicle is enormous mass of between 2 and 3 thousand kilos, thus it's perfectly understandable that one of these things should require over 300 hp so it might keep a reasonable pace with delivery vans, passenger cars and pizza mopeds.
Normal passenger vehicles in the rest of the world are plenty fast if their engines produce 200hp. Sadly, Americans don't know about the rest of the world and think motorsport equals monster trucks, drag racing and something called an 'oval'.
That was classic intercourse!
First off, chipping cars generally doesnt produce big gains EXCEPT with factory turbo cars.
This is because the pressure produced with the turbo is often controlled by a the computer, and altering the settings will raise the amount of air and fuel and thus the horsepower. Since modern turbos usually have fairly large air pumping capacity, the gains are quite large. A great example is the SRT4- the first 2 (warrantied!) factory upgrade stages are just a comptuer and injector swap which raises the boost. They massively overbuilt the drivetrain anticipating that people would engage in such acts.
This usually produces big gains in power, but can cause problems in two cases:
1) The turbo is very small compared to the engine and the turbo has to be overspun to produce a gain in power. This has been a big problem for the v6 twin turbo audi S4 and the 1.8T powered VW/Audi cars. They use extremely undersized turbos (to reduce lag) but this makes them very frail at high boost levels. This is why audi is going to a non-turbo V8 for the next version of the S4. Warranty claims are very hard to deny if the factory chip is swapped back in and the only damage is a pair of failed turbos. Its obvious what happened, but impossible to prove, especially when so many people are reporting these "random failures."
2) The engine internals or drivetrain are too frail. This tends to be far less common (since these parts are usually overengineered), but it does happen, especially on AWD turbo cars with decent sized turbos, like the AWD DSMs from the mid-early 90s (eclipse/laser/etc). These accidents tend to be very expensive, so the dealerships are usually a bit more careful about springing for warranty work. Often the damning evidence is the massively upgraded clutch which sent the power to the transmission, or the poorly tuned engine which melted a piston top or a valve.
On a car that isnt a factory turbo, all you can do is advance timing and adjust fuel delivery. Timing advance usually yields a little power but fuel delivery only yields power if the stock configuration is extremely rich (like on the Sentra Spec-V) or if the engine's volumetric efficiency is changed (cams/turbo/supercharger/etc added).
This second use is usually what a computer change is used for on a n/a car.
for people who don't know which end of the screwdriver to hit.
- Drive away in your own Plywood Fury, with two barrel carbonmaker and brand new gladiator...
What?
No, tweaking in this way does not improve your brakes, tires, or overall handling.
But it can remove artificial limits.
Here are my current car's specs:
280hp
254ft/lbs torque
All Wheel Drive
FB: 16" 2-pot Ventilated Discs (ABS)
RB: 15" Ventilated Discs (ABS)
Tires: 215/45 ZR-17 (ZR=Sustained 240+km/hr)
Nothing has been changed on the car to improve these specs.
Said manufacturer also chose to limit the top speed to 180km/hr as agreed among all Japanese makers for domestically sold cars. The car does 160km/hr in 3rd gear!!
So what is the cars real top speed? 260km/hr.
Weirder still, you can buy, directly from the manufacturer's performance-parts section, a replacement 260km/hr speedo.
Some cars are meant to be chipped.
An even better example is the Nissan Skyline GT-R. Many people (especially non-car nuts) outside of Japan have never heard of "the GT-R", but this is without doubt the highest performance Japanese car made. (See skylinegtr.com for detailed information.)
In short though, the Skyline GT-R is limited to the same 280hp as my car. But Nissan has designed the entire car as a 600hp car, and chipping the car very quickly gives you nearly 600hp. SIX HUNDRED!
As I said, some cars are meant to be chipped.
Ian
Some people are like slinkies--basically useless but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs.
This has been about as a phenomenonon for some while. Sometime in the early 90s I remember blowing a big run of EPROMS for a guy, well you know because I had an EPROM programmer and UV eraser which aren;t common it was a nice little job and I charged per device rate for copying them. I knew he was selling them, but like a dutiful hacker I didn't initially ask what they were (assuming pirate games ROMs). However each
of the masters had a sticker with the model of a car (newest Fords and Audis I vaguely recall).
Well when I did finally mention it, that's what they were... souped-up firmware replacements for the boy racers. Glad to see this art is still alive.
And you know what? Their numbers are so small, and the cars aren't THAT far off(proper power requires engines be in good shape!) that this is a non-issue. What's an issue is the millions of trucks, trains and ships burning high-sulfur diesel fuel...or the clowns who drive around with their cars belching blue smoke. Then there are the SUVs which of course are nearly exempt from emissions testing! Don't get me started about the coal burning power plants...
Optimum power is achieved on a slightly richer than perfect fuel ratio, and yes, that will cause a modified car to go over the limits set by the state emissions tests. However, under most other conditions, the cars are fine emissions-wise.
Sorry, but the tree-huggers have gone too far in many cases; they're yapping not just about SUVs but they expect everyone else to turn in their cars and drive Honda Insights. It's disgusting. As a result of all this, so many awesome cars can't be brought to the states simply because they don't meet our emissions tests...even though they'd represent a tiny fraction of the cars on the road, possibly be driven less than average...not to mention, more likely to be kept in excellent condition(ie, not get left burning oil for a year or two until it finally explodes). But no-sir, you're .01% over on the HC's, you can't register that! No sir, your car's manufacturer didn't go through full EPA testing! Even worse, homebuilt cars are coming under increasingly strict reg's too; in some states, it's getting to be virtually impossible to have your own home-built car, because you can't get it to pass inspection.
Lastly, lots of chips pass emissions specifications(not just the gas-station test) just fine- the problem is that the certification process is very expensive, so not every tuner can afford to do it.
Please help metamoderate.
Just how fast do you need to go down an on-ramp in the first place?
65 or 70 mph depending on the state. If you're not going the speed limit by the time you get on the freeway either the on-ramp was very poorly designed or you're a very bad driver.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
18 horsepower = 13.5Kw
70 foot pounds = 95 Newton metres
Aftermarket is not OEM.
OEM Service parts are made to origional manufacturing specs.
Aftermarket parts can be made by Joe in his garage.
The warranty acts basically say that if you use components of the proper class, it won't void your warranty.
This means you don't need to use GM motor oil in your car, but you DO have to use the proper SAE grade motor oil.
You don't have to use the same brand of shocks, tires, spark plugs etc, but they have to be of the same type.
Think of it like memory modules, you can put any DDR module in a DDR motherboard, and not void your warranty, but if you were force a 30pin sim in there and fry it, the manufacturer could void the warranty because you used it in an improper manner.
You're not one of those people that puts a coffee can on your exhaust pipe and bolts an aluminum bookshelf to your trunk, are you?
/usr/games/fortune
"I may be slow, but I'm ahead of you!"
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
Or you are stuck behind some idiot going 35...
/usr/games/fortune
Aftermarket != OEM Replacement part
Aftermarket == non OEM
OEM == Original Equipment Mfgr.
Aftermarket parts are, by definition, non OEM. Generally they are of less cost. My experiance is with powertrain aftermarket parts has been good. I just did a tune up and used aftermarkets and have been doing so for years.
On the otherhand, when it comes to the body parts (fenders, hoods, etc) stay away from the aftermarket. The parts are shiat, do not always align, rust quicker and are quite shoddy. Granted, if the car is a old, I will use aftermarket because I cannot justify the cost. If it is a late model, and need body work, you can damn well bet I will insist on OEM
n.b. My father was in the auto body repair biz, and my grandfather was a mechanic. The shop was 300 ft from the house, so I lived, ate, breathed fixing cars. While I am not an expert, I do know what I am talking about in this area.
As always there are exceptions to the rule.
By tweaking fuel/air mixtures and ignition timing, the two main adjustable performance variables without removing or replacing parts, you are also drastically changing combustion byproducts. The ability of vehicles to meet emissions standards is largely dependent on the fine tuning the engine computer provides. The computer monitors exhaust gas composition, intake air volume, engine temp, air temp, throttle position, RPM, barometric pressure, etc. and mixes the optimum fuel/air ratio to minimize emissions for a given performance curve. You aren't just voiding the warranty by tweaking, you are violating federal air quality laws. Some don't care about the air they breath, but they might care about dying. (See next point)
A finer point is the consideration of incomplete combustion. There is an inverse relationship between performance and fuel efficiency. Where does all that extra fuel go to eak out that last bit of horsepower? It exits the combustion chamber in the form of partially combusted hydrocarbons (HC's) and CO. It takes too long to burn fuel completely to CO2 and H20 in a high performance envelope, so it is wasted and accounted as the cost of performance. Normally the HC's and CO exit the exhaust into the air in a off-street high performance vehicle. In a street production vehicle there is a catalytic converter between the exhaust manifold and the air. It is designed to clean up any residual uncombusted byproducts, normally a small % and runs around 1000-1500 degrees in temp, but it has heat shielding/insulation to protect the vehicle. If you changed the exhaust, through tweaking for performance, to release a higher percentage of HC's and CO, the catalytic converter will convert it to CO2 and H20. The problem is that there is much more combustion to complete and the cat's temp will rise drastically. Then your car catches on fire.
You might think this is a rare event, but it happens occasionally when engines are poorly tuned or leaking oil fumes in the exhaust and aren't checked out for emissions. Part of an emissions test involves analyzing exhaust gases prior to entering the cat. Converters are so efficient at finishing combustion that they can mask oil burning and overly rich mixtures.
I have seen several cars burn up this way. The funniest/most ironic happened to a police car. The police department was pulling strings with the emissions department and getting rubber stamped emissions stickers for their cruiser fleet without actually running the tests. One hot summer day a cruiser melted by the side of the road and started a moderate grass fire. It was determined through mechanic logs that the car had been using much more oil recently, but nothing was done to figure out why - just kept adding oil. All that oil was burning in the cat and eventually the heat shielding burned through and the car ignited.
Just like overclocking, you gotta do something about the excess heat. The tweakers might want to remove the cat (a violation of federal law) or keep a fire extinguisher in the car and the fire department on speed dial.
I used to turn wrenches for a living before going to med school.
Goals for 2011: 1. Stop plate tectonics. 2. Prevent animal predation. 3. End supernovae now. 4. Rid the world of evil.
DISCLAIMER!!! The above statement is unfortunately not based on the posters personal experience.
"The strong will do what they want, the weak will do what they must."
-Thucydides
In most modern normally aspirated vehicles ECU modifications do very little (we are talking 10% max) to performance unless the volumetric efficiency of the car is altered first by improving breathing (air filter, intake manifold, throttle body, inlet cam etc), improved exhaust (extractors, free flowing exhaust) or increasing the engine's ability to rev (blueprinting, valve train etc etc). Once these things have been done it is often vital that ECU mods are done to ensure that air/fuel mixtures remain with safe range (not too lean for petrol engines and not to rich for diesels).
On the flip side we have the behaviour of the stock ECU on many of the more sophisticated modern vehicles: particularly those that have low emissions status. Often traditional mods will not improve performance at all or only for a little while. For example, before the Subaru Impreza WRX was released in the US, a typical first modification was turbo or cat back exhaust. This had the effect of improving flow and also increased boost because the boost control was open loop (no feedback). The new GDB Impreza WRX is no where near as easy to modify. The ECU has closed loop control and will also retard timing to bring power down to stock levels. Another vehicle that does something similar are the LS1 V8 equipped Holden Commodores that we have here in Australia (the four door equivalent of the new Pontiac GTO). These use some form of torque modelling such that any modification will give a short performance boost but within days the ECU will bring torque back to stock levels.
In short, ECU modification is generally something that is done at the same time as other, more physical modifications.
+55hp +80ft/lbs for the 01 AWW engine with a GIAC chips for the 1.8T VW's. It's real for VW's. For a few years, the chip was gated back on the 4 cylinder so it wouldn't cut into v6 sales. Do a search, places like Awe Tuning have proved it on dinos...
Garage operators across the country say they are seeing more cars with burned-out engines, partly because reprogrammed chips sometimes supply too much fuel and allow turbo pressure to exceed recommended limits.
I suppose this could make sense with a turbo engine (more gas AND more air), but more gas by itself will just cause horrible emissions and, if anything, a low operating temp. A rich mixture does not fully burn, and indeed ends up cooling the engine some. A lean mixture will burn up an engine. A rich mixture will just smell bad and piss off the EPA.
(Perhaps inevitably, the hacker culture has also produced automotive pirates who buy legitimate chips from makers then copy the programming onto blank chips, selling the results at sharp discounts.)
Need I say anything? "Hacker culture" != "Pirate". Grr.
Partly to combat hackers, many carmakers are using encrypted chips in new models or, like Toyota, have done away with removable memory chips altogether. That has the e-mechanics shifting strategies, either by downloading new software directly into the computer's hard drive...
Hard Drive? In my car? From the factory? Think not.
Like anything, as long as you fully understand what you are doing, it's perfectly safe. In fact, most people with professional technical qualifications are probably brighter and more careful than many auto mechanics, and I know from experience, that at least I know that I will do the job *right*. The important thing is that people are willing to learn how to do things right. I will still leave jobs to the professionals when:
- It would take too much time to learn and do
- It needs expensive, specialised tools
- It needs more skills/tools than I have just now
- It's a horrible job
As for the original article, that's old news. Enhanced chips and programmable chips have been available for years. The good ones do more than extend the fuel map past the programmed maximum, it's really important that they take into account stuff like the EFI's fuel delivery capacity, many, many chipped cars have been ruined because a badly programmed chip leaves the top end too lean. Buy any magazine about high performance 4 cylinder cars.
Xix.
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
I just feed speed to the nearest underage goth girl. the insurance is cheaper.
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
You pulled that "100 hp" out of the air: nowhere in the article is such a claim made.
However, significant gains can be made in some areas without running afoul of your first failure mode. If you are willing to commit to always using high-octane fuel, for example, then you can safely derive significant benefit by changing the ignition advance settings in the ROM maps.
Other useful features can be added to your ECU as well. Consider the products from TechnoMotive. You can add security so that the engine will only start if you tap a secret code on the gas pedal. You can make instrumentation display many different data -- helping you prevent the types of failures you mention. You can even have bugs from the manufacturer fixed:
ObDisclaimer: not associated with TMO in any way, but have heard great things from their customers.
Not entirely true. Cars are tuned for fuel efficiency. Thats because the manufacturers have to have an average fuel efficiency, and these days they got lots of trouble making up for the SUVs...
So you can get more horses if you sacrifice efficiency. Note also, the Dodge viper and the Dodge RAM shared versions of the same V12 engine. One tuned for high horses, other tuned for high torque.
You will not be wearing out your car with the modifications these controllers allow. You are just adjusting variables that the OEMs already have there.
If they allows this off the line, the govt would probably force them to figure it into their average fuel economy. There are no "underclocked" cars.
The only thing OEMs don't want is you diagnosing your car, or any repair shops fixing them. The dealerships push the OEMs hard on that aspect.
The thing had four benches, and he took 10 people at a times for rides.
On Interstate 91.
Going as high as 60 miles per hour to the delight of bewildered motorists. Never mind the then 55 MPH limit...
And all this in TOTAL SILENCE. Not a sound, but some whiffs of steam...
There's another limiting factor here along with fuel effiency. In Japan, they have some weird gentlemen's agreement among all the heavy hitters. No 300hp+ cars from the factory. Sure, you can make a 290hp twin turbo Supra, but not 300hp. There are lots of Japanese supercars that are 'underclocked' to match this wacky ideal, all it takes is a few choice parts to earn you well over 50hp.
Mitsubishi is famous for this as is Toyota (well, Toyota was. Haven't made anything good for a long time now).
Only if you belong to the idiot masses. Go look up the origional definition of hack and you would realize that it applies a lot more to tweaking your cars onboard computer than it does to script kiddies exploiting security holes.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
OK.
1.) Annoying other law-abiding motorists:
As opposed to the 65-hp Honda Civics than can't get the fuck out of their own way and have the "super-kewl" fart-cans to make them SOUND fast? Just because I *have* 350hp in my car, or 175hp in my bike, doesn't mean I taunt other motorists.
2.) Breaking the law
Right. And ONLY high-horsepower car owners break the law? Again, I know plenty of Buick Park Avenues that can break the law. Run a stop sign, speed in a residential, etc.
3.) Killing pedestrians.
Seriously, this merits a big "Oh, fucking bullshit." I can kill pedestrians with a Dodge Neon just as easily as a Dodge Viper. Your argument is like equating birth control with abortion.
4.) Impressing young boys
Actually, 350hp or more is for MY enjoyment. I enjoy running against other people with high-performance vehicles on the track on Sundays, or in race events against equivalent drivers and vehicles. What the fuck is the point of smoking little Johnny in his Mommy's Beretta? Oh yeah - none.
Your attitudes are ignorant, dangerous, and in most cases, completely wrong.
In the same vein, I'd challenge:
The ONLY uses for Overclocked computers and Linux are:
1.) Annoying Microsoft and SCO - obviously, they are making good products, and any attempts to mess with them are wrong. And making your computer faster than the advertised chip you bought is stealing - if you wanted a 2GHz processor, you should have PAID for one!
2.) Breaking the law: Linux is 'open-source', and SCO and Microsoft both oppose them. Why would you need anything other than what Microsoft gives you?
3.) Killing capitalism: Without the valuable R&D that proprietary software companies do, there would be no innovation and no advancement in the software industry.
4.) Impressing young boys: D3wd, my b0x is s0 lee7! C43ck 17 0u7!! 1 700k a Athl0n1200 and pushed it to 2200! Totally teh sw337!
In other words, sir.... Feh to you and your ignorance. Don't condescend to my hobbies.
"If there's hope, it lies in the proles..."
For those of you with a BMW, Bavarian Autosport sells pre-modded chips that are tuned to specific models of BMWs.
Brakes are the one part of the car that always amuses me. I'm the same way, I change my own brakes, they're easy. Think of it this way: Engineers know that brakes are a part that wear down. They are designed to wear, be replaced, and done easily. (It's really the reason behind the industry moving to disk brakes in the first place, incredibly easy to maintain).
However, with the idea that brakes are the "safety" part of the car, people feel they should only trust the highest trained mechanic to the job. Please, it's only slightly harder to do than changing your oil.
Rich
If I spend $7,000 on performance parts the car will be able to drag against dodge vipers that cost around $60,000 (I think a dodge viper has a 12 second 1/4 mile time
Much better bang for your buck can be found in the VW/Audi 1.8 turbo engine. with just a chip, bigger turbo and exhaust (together under $3500) you can have well over 300 horsepower and torque out the wazoo. A VW/Audi 1.8 turbo car, slightly modified, can do 12-13 second quarter miles easy.
But who gives a crap about drag racing anyways? My grandma can push her right foot down and go fast in a straight line. Real racing involves tight twisty turns (many of them - not boring nascar lets-drive-in-a-circle-500-times). Have a look here to see where the action is.
Another plus for the VW/Audi cars - there is a serial cable you connect to the car that you can interact with all electronic parts of the car - from the engine to the stereo to the anti-lock-brakes. And even better, the protocol spec is open and published for anyone. I can put a laptop on the front seat of my car while I drive and watch the turbo boost pressure, oil pressure, and tons of other cool real-time metrics. Very open-source'esque. You don't get that with the bland "big-three" or the "rice-boy" asian car crowd.
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
"I have a Nissan Sentra SE-R SpecV...It was a bit over $21,000 fully loaded...If I spend $7,000 on performance parts the car will be able to drag against dodge vipers that cost around $60,000"
Yep. But when you cross the finish line, win or lose, you'll still be driving a Nissan Sentra.
Tal
"Study your math, kids. Key to the universe." -The Archangel Gabriel
The reason for electronic engine control is basicaly to reach The Stoichiometric Fuel/Air Mixture at all running conditions. ECU maps are basically designed to the lowest level in consumer products. Remaping the ECU is a time consuming procedure. One can't just make power in all conditions by remapping. 14.7 to one mixture of oxidizer to fuel will produce the most efficient and powerfull use of fuel. Consumer ECU's trade off getting the closest to this mixture for all conditions, cold start, lugging the motor, running it hard, lower octane fuels, the list goes on and on.
Haltech has a great system for designers. Install the system, acquire the data from all sensors (o2, map, temp, tdc, rmp, throttle pos, at a min) in real world driving and spend countless hours perfecting proper setup. Great for an engineer and a mess for joe sixpack.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
how about -1 flamebait?
im 6'2" and i appreciate the room i get in a full sized american car. i also like being able to take 5 ppl or so with me. maybe i dont want to drive around in a 800lb piece of tin with 1 carburetor per cylinder(sure, sure, theyre efi now, its a joke). ill give credit where its due, f1 racing is WAY better than nascar or indy. roundy round just seems boring. also, european cars have their place, just like american cars do. id love to own an m5, for instance. i dont think a comparable car exists factory in the US.
concerning US motorsports:
so autocrossing, rally, and trans am dont exist in the US? talk about ignorant. also, ever heard of the viper? yeah, the one that kicks a lot of tail in germany for a lot less $$?
okay, how about early 90's eagle talons with awd turbo motors that can see 13's stock and still outcorner your aston for thousands less?
to each his own, have you ever driven in a 2600lb car with 500hp? i have nothing against european cars, but you wanted to troll... drive the car you want the way you want, but dont talk trash about my choices in the matter.
use your turn signal! you people act like it's divulging information to the enemy
Not the ECU. Here's the situation: You wreck your later then 02 vehicle. The insurance company pulls the body computer and acquires the last 20 seconds of data before the crash sensors signal airbag deployment. Data like throttle possition, brake possition, rpm, speed are recorded and available for use. All this data for authorities to grep without your permission.
That's the real fix necessary!
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Too bad they are really just rebranded Eclipses (ok so they were a combined initiative but the eclipse name lives on with mitsu). But with all the mitsubishi engineers working on them and the fact that many of their parts are kept up by the mitsubishi enthousiasts, I would not consider them an american car.
Bottles.
BMW and a company called Dinan have been doing this for years, with an added twist. As long as Dinan modifies the computer, the change is covered by your BMW warranty. I had this done to a Z3 2.5i, and it was quite an improvement. The software is tuned to match their performance products. For example: With a Dinan exhaust, cold air intake, and throttle body, they offer a Stage III software download. The process is quite simple. They use a small (old school) HP PDA (the ones that looked like tiny brown laptops) and some kind of a serial connection to program the computer. It's pretty slick. Also they (Dinan) offer automatic transmission software upgrades.
For someone who knows so much about BMW's F1 racing habits, you should know better than this...
.02% life? That sounds pretty generous. Lets assume the average BMW engine block can run 30 years (with proper maintenance). At 2 hours per day for those 30 years (thats probably really low) that is 43800 hours of use. .02% of that 8.76 hours. I doubt most F1 engines will run that long without a major overhaul or replacement.
There were no similarities between the engine parts aside from the block. The pistons, connectors, cylinder heads etc. are all substantially beefed up and radically different in the F1 engine, obviously.
Similarly, in NHRA racing, they use big block engines that probably ran 200 hp in their stock version, but are quite capable of running multi-thousand in NHRA.
And
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I put some speed holes in the hood. They make the car go faster.
Does it mean that, in order to reach the maximal level of geekness, I will have to get an extra tank, full of liquid nitrogen for my overclocked car ?
Cool. So my next car will have these 2 tanks, be overclocked, play mp3's / have a GPS system, and look cool. Now all I need is a Mr. Fusion unit. But it's still 2004 and I hadn't invented it yet.
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Roses are #FF0000, Violets are #0000FF, find / -name '*base*' |xargs chown -R us && mv zig greatjustice
"So you can get more horses if you sacrifice efficiency. Note also, the Dodge viper and the Dodge RAM shared versions of the same V12 engine. One tuned for high horses, other tuned for high torque."
Something else to keep in mind before making this assertion is that while the engines might be the same design, the implementations on other aspects might be wholly different. Specifically, Chrysler has a habit of using cast crankshafts in some applications and forged ones in others. The Cylinder Heads on the truck engine were probably not the same as the ones on the Viper's version. If different pistons were used, I wouldn't be surprised to find the viper using H-Beam rods with the truck using I-Beam rods, even if they are the exact same length. Pistons would probably be different too, so that the compression on the Viper is naturally higher than it can be in the truck.
So, while the LA-Derived V-10 might have the same block castings, dimensions, and some components, I wouldn't be surprised if the really important stuff is so different as to make it hard to make a stock truck engine turn a Viper's performance without risking ruining the engine.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
No 300hp+ cars from the factory
Infiniti FX45: 315HP
The motorcycle I bought many many years ago (90' FZR1000) runs a 10.5 sec quater mile @ 135 mph. STOCK. Off the show room floor.
I bought it for $4-5000 (can't remember) used. And it gets on average 35-50 MPG (depending on how I drive it).
Once again FUCK YOU DODGE (aka Daimler Chrysler)
Rodger
Who will guard the guards?
A sheet metal spoiler taller than the car, right? I've heard those add at least 50hp...
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
Courtesy the AC in case anyone missed it: "Subaru WRX STi has 300hp"
Actually it's closer to 320 but what makes it to the ground is less (yeah an AWD drivetrain is lossy). They don't sell this model in Japan, it's an American market only car, which is unusual for Subaru. The WRX STi there gets smaller displacement to fit with the World Rally rules (2.0 liters of displacement only). Ours is a 2.5 liter IIRC...and the main reason they pulled this rabbit out of the hat is to beat Mitsubishi's EVO8.
yes; 3 stickers placed in strategic positions will earn you well over 50hp on these cars
You might have seen people selling on eBay a miracle chip which can unleash around 20BHP from your engine, and yet this wonder chip only costs like $5.
Its basically a resistor you are buying, and you are expected to solder it into your ECU, tricking the car into thinking its running in cold start mode the whole time.. so more fuel is injected into the engine hence making it a little more powerful.
But obviously you don't want to be doing it.. if you are going to get your car chipped do it at a garage who run your car on a rolling road and work out a custom map for you. $500 or so for a rechip would be nothing compared to the damage that one of those $5 resistors would do over time.
"Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!!"
Oh oh I seen this episode ... this is where they made Kit evil by putting an Atari 2600 cartridge into his car stereo!
You're best off doing this with a completely separate engine, tranny, ECU, etc. Run the performance parts on the track. Use the factory stock parts for road use. Three reasons: one, "good stuff" is disgustingly expensive. Why waste it sitting in traffic jams on the way to work? Two, you'll need a better crank, bearing caps, rods, heads, valve train, clutch, tranny, CV joints, etc. to handle any significant increase in power. Street cars don't come with a Borg Warner T-10 and Ford 9" differential any more, they have light duty drive trains designed for minimum drag (fuel economy). Unless you drive a pickup, you're lucky to have more than a half ton towing rating--the stock driveline, brakes and suspension can't handle the load. Third, iirc it's a $10,000 federal fine if they decide to arrest you for "tampering" with an approved emissions control system (such as the ECU). It doesn't happen often, but it does happen (especially in smoggy, car-crazy California).
We Americans might have some other reasons to have and do what we do that the EU and Asian Types don't think about. While I am not personally a fan of the extremely big cars, you might just take note that we don't live in Europe or Asia.
When my wife who is from the Philippines was processing her papers to come here, I told her to get some training in driving a car. She said, "No I will just walk to the store and where I want to go." I countered, it is 8 km from my house to the nearest substantial store, you need to learn to drive. I do not live in the West USA, I live in a fairly populated area of the East in Madison County Alabama.
We Americans are likely to have to use our vehicles to haul furniture, and large items that EU types and East Asians are likely to have delivery services for. We are also likely to live where travel in the order of 150 km on a daily trip is not uncommon. (Yes I do know the Miles to Km conversions) I am also 1.88 m tall. I do not fit well in one of those little tin can cars that the world thinks I should use. I do own a large Nissan Quest Minivan. It is much more pleasant than my Honda Civic which is my other car. The economy in gasoline usage is about 22mpg city and 30 mpg Highway on the Nissan and about 32 mpg Honda Civic and about 40 mpg highway. My work is about to have to make me take a Transcontinental Trip. At my Size and carrying some luggage etc I need a larger vehicle.
I don't here too much about EU types having to travel say 3,000 km in 3 day with a wife 2 kids and luggage on board. I also don't hear about you buying plywood and lumber for building onto your property very often.
There is another point that the EU types and the East Asians miss when they start dumping on NASCAR and Monster Trucks and Drag Racing etc. (I am not a racing fan) Very nearly every innovation in efficiency or safety in Automotive Transportation has arisin from such types as the NASCAR Racers. It is their "Tweeking" that has brought about the new technology. These are the Tech Scientists on the Cutting Edge who brought about the prosperity of modern society. Resenting them is just plain IGNORANT.
EU Types also live in a world with streets built for horse and donkey tech. Their major cities do have some modern streets but London, Paris and many others are mostly narrow streets incapacitated for modern transport. The USA on the other hand was generally built to handle this. The comparison of our world and your world is simply not to understand that they are as alien as seperate planets. The reason we have brought the world cars, aircraft, farm tractors, and a lot more is because we don't think like the EU types. We don't live like you do and this is not to say that you are wrong for your world. It simply is to say that you are wrong about our world.
Our weather is quite different from yours. The comments about Airconditioning is a good example. I live in Alabama. Our weather finds that in the Spring, Summer and Fall I am subject to having the temperature in my car reach 80 Deg C in the mid day. Opening the windows finds the exterior temperature reaching between 35 and 40 Deg C. The Relative Humidity is often 95% or higher. This just doesn't happen even in southern Europe. You may get as hot but for the most part your Heat Index is much less. Also at your Humidity conditions a wet cloth cools you adequately. Here it just gets you sticky and hotter. In the winter I am subject to having my windows fog up not from temperature but from Humidity conditions and Air Conditioning is a Safety tool then! These conditions are not solved by opening windows.
Our conditions are vastly different here on so many issues that you simply don't know what is going on. While I know persons who love NASCAR and it is most definitely a very popular sport in Alabama (Number 1 or 2) it is hardly the "Obsession" that you think.
Being from Alabama I think you simply don't have a clue as to what is going on either. This isn't some Hick sport of the ignorant t
Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
Hacking a car and getting an extra 5% power out of it has as much point as hacking a bus to get an extra 5%. Ooh, the zero to sixty time goes from 5.4 to 5.2 seconds. Big... fucking... deal... If you want speed do it properly in the first place.
k eI D=83
Acceleration = Force/Mass
Get rid of all that extra, unnecessary mass.
Today's sports motorcycle weighs 175kg and produce 135kW. They rev to 16,000 rpm, do 0-60mph in under 3 seconds, 90+mph in first gear, 180mph in top. And you can buy one for $8,000.
THAT's how you go fast. Gravity and the size of your bollocks are the limiting factors.
Alternatively you put an insanely large engine in the thing, like this:
http://www.triumph.co.uk/site/bikes/page.cfm?Bi
Compared to bikes, this fucking about with a car to try make it go faster is utterly pointless. Even when you've done it you might as well be driving a bus for all the difference it makes.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Holy misleading analogy. I've seen so much misinformation and FUD in the comments that my head is spinning. Look folks, people have been "chipping" their cars for years, and there are many reputable companies selling ECU chips. For example, APR has been in the business for a long time and is well-respected. Their chip will give my VW Passat 1.8t an additional 45hp, and you don't even have to take anything apart since it can be directly programmed. And their chips are well tested and won't "burn out" your engine. Considering that the 1.8t engine is used in many cars and hp varies from 150-225, I think what APR does is well within the engines limits. All in all, it's rather conservative.
Some other pieces of helpful info: Chips frequently give you better gas milage and I've never heard of anyone (in the VW world) failing an emmission test because of it.
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"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
That's rather strange, since I'm 190cm tall and I owned a Metro, which was plenty big enough for me. In fact, a '95+ Metro/Swift (now Aveo/Swift) has more legroom in the front and back than a '94 Cavalier. These cars look tiny from the outside, but there's some rather impressive engineering at work to gain a lot of space.
I have lived in Europe (Eastern Europe to be exact) and people do haul stuff around like you wouldn't believe! I've seen everything from bricks to cow shit (for fertelizer) moved in the trunk (which was often times in the front on many rear engined models) I've taken vacations spanning thousands of kilometers with a family of four. I've seen my grandfather hauling a trailer of fruits and veggies to the market with his 1968, 49HP Skoda 1000MB. Not to mention that the roads in Eastern Europe at this time were way worse than anything here, yet the little cars got the job done. It's all American perception that you need an SUV to go over a speed bump.
-I DDoSed your mom.
Insightful? You could do everything you stated in a mini-van with less than 300 HP but I'm sure that would dent your image so you drive a 3 ton SUV instead .... by yourself for 95% of the time probably.
I'm soooo tired of people rationalizing "I wanna SUV" with "I take 5 people with me and I'm 6'2". I'm 6'2" and can take 4 people in my audi A4 just fine.
From Title 42, Chapter 85, Sub-chapter II, Part A, Sec 7524.a of The Clean Air Act
See for the full text of The Clean Air Act.
http://www.epa.gov/region5/defs/html/caa.ht
Goals for 2011: 1. Stop plate tectonics. 2. Prevent animal predation. 3. End supernovae now. 4. Rid the world of evil.