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Brazil Takes Lead in All-Digital Cinema Projection

securitas writes "The CS Monitor's Andrew Downie reports that Brazil plans to open in May the world's largest digital movie theater network. About 100 theaters will use Sao Paulo-based Rain Networks' KinoCast digital theater DRM software. Rain based its system on Windows Media 9 software with MPEG-4 video compression. 'The MPEG-4 software can squeeze a feature film onto a file of just five gigabytes, 15 times smaller than the MPEG-2 technology presently used' at one-third the $150,000 cost. It takes 20 minutes to distribute a 90-minute film over a VPN and the system avoids the costs associated with transporting physical copies to areas largely inaccessible by road - it can cost up to $750,000 for 500 copies of a Matrix-type blockbuster to be distributed. Interestingly, in the affluent USA the fight between the 35,000 theater owners and Hollywood is about who will pay for cinemas to switch to digital projection. In December 2003 the Guardian published a story with more financial and technical details of the KinoCast digital cinema system."

293 comments

  1. WMP9 by CptChipJew · · Score: 4, Funny

    Rain based its system on Windows Media 9 software

    "Man, independant films are so weird. I totally didn't understand that one part where right in the middle of the car chase, it showed that big blue screen. What was all that weird text on it, the credits?"

    --
    Vonal Declosion
    1. Re:WMP9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      "hey, projector person, right click and select full screen, it's too small!"

    2. Re:WMP9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Aye aye Sir! But the error said: Displaying the film in full screen would constitute a DMCA violation!

    3. Re:WMP9 by GregWebb · · Score: 1

      Silly question: WMP over here doesn't lock the screensaver out while playing videos in full screen. If I'm watching a film I have to periodically nudge the mouse to keep it all awake.

      Which twit didn't think of that one?

      --

      Greg

      (Inside a nuclear plant)
      Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!

    4. Re:WMP9 by essreenim · · Score: 1
      affluent USA


      I think not


      Im sure all the township dwellers are excited about this. They of course know about it.

    5. Re:WMP9 by leifm · · Score: 1

      I used WM9 to play a few DVDs with S-video output running to our TV. It never went to sleep, nor did the screensaver kick in. I've never watched anything more than a few min that wasn't a DVD though.

      --

      "Windows Me offers tremendous reliability and stability improvements..." -- Paul Thurott
    6. Re:WMP9 by Cyclotron_Boy · · Score: 1

      Good to see that Brazil's mainstream film industry is finall learning what the porn industry has known for so long...

    7. Re:WMP9 by westlake · · Score: 1

      look under Tools/Options/Player/Player Settings in WM9 and you will find that screen savers are disabled by default

    8. Re:WMP9 by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      "hey, projector person, click No on the Media Player Update dialog! It's blocking Angelina's chest!"

      --
      "Derp de derp."
  2. Yes but by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It takes 20 minutes to distribute a 90-minute film over a VPN and the system avoids the costs associated with transporting physical copies to areas largely inaccessible by road

    I have a feeling that if some area is inaccessible by road, it's not likely to have DSL or fiber running to it either. So they'd still have to bring the hard-disks (or whatever media) by hand.

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    1. Re:Yes but by REBloomfield · · Score: 5, Informative

      Wireless my friend, wireless. A microwave link goes over the 10s of kilometres at the lowest end, and the bandwidth is great.

    2. Re:Yes but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What about Sat?

    3. Re:Yes but by Yokaze · · Score: 5, Insightful

      EM-waves travel quite good trough the air.
      Satellites, or point-to-point radio-systems come to mind.

      --
      "Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
    4. Re:Yes but by HFShadow · · Score: 5, Informative

      Reading the article comes in useful here as they are doing it via satellite.

    5. Re:Yes but by janpf · · Score: 2, Funny

      If there are no roads, I can only imagine how the people are going to the theater: hanging on vines !?

    6. Re:Yes but by keyed · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I have a feeling that if some area is inaccessible by road, it's not likely to have DSL or fiber running to it either. So they'd still have to bring the hard-disks (or whatever media) by hand.

      That's not why they won't be using the digital theater though. Seriously, who's going to be able to afford the $50,000 equipment and DSL connections when they don't have accessible roads. Obviously, this won't be an affluent area. How do the theater owners actually plan on making money off this?

      And as for the $1500 cost of physical film, that's a moot point. Places like that will likely get it 3-6 months and 3rd or 4th-hand after the film has been circulated throughout other countries.

    7. Re:Yes but by Winkhorst · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There are no roads *TO* the area. There are obviously streets in the towns. And Brazil has something called the Amazon River Basin, by which one can travel to lots of places via a really neat modern invention called a *BOAT*.

      --
      "Is this Winkhorst a nova criminal?" "No just a technical sergeant wanted for interrogation."
    8. Re:Yes but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not the shipping which is the problem. It's the cost of striking prints.

    9. Re:Yes but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone ever heard of Satellite IP Multicast?

    10. Re:Yes but by gustgr · · Score: 1

      I live in Brazil and about two years ago I had to set up a network on a farm located in the hinterlands of Brazil. They had a quite good Internet link for Brazilian standards.

  3. Bout time by Owen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Its nice to go to the Cinema and have amazing sound, now we can watch the films and not have scratchy, popping, projected images!

    1. Re:Bout time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      yeah we can have, frame dropouts, compression artifacts, media controled by DRM propritory formats.

    2. Re:Bout time by PatrickThomson · · Score: 3, Funny

      I dunno about you, but scratchy popping is all part of the exerience.

      You see those black ovals? Cigarette burns.
      For that matter, it'd be harder to splice in single frames of hard core pronography as well.

      --
      I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
    3. Re:Bout time by WWWWolf · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Its nice to go to the Cinema and have amazing sound, now we can watch the films and not have scratchy, popping, projected images!

      Right, we trade scratched prints to squealing and chirping sound and smudged, blocky, pixelated video...

      One of the most important laws of technology is that It's Never Perfect. =)

    4. Re:Bout time by trezor · · Score: 1
      • For that matter, it'd be harder to splice in single frames of hard core pronography as well.

      Yeah, especially with the DRM and all. Now who wants to work at the cinema?

      --
      Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
    5. Re:Bout time by W2IRT · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Its nice to go to the Cinema and have amazing sound, now we can watch the films and not have scratchy, popping, projected images!

      Maybe if the chains hired back some real projectionists who can put on a good show without scratching the print to ratshit after 3 passes you would have your wish. Expert film handlers and a good 35mm print (or dare I suggest it -- 70mm) will beat the optical quality of ANY digital projection system currently in use or likely to come down the pike in the next decade.

      If you ever get the opportunity to do so, carefully examine a 35mm print and a digital release of the same title. Look for the "swirling snow" digital artifacts in any light-coloured scenes (like snow or sandscapes); blocky shadows; colour that just doesn't look "right."

      It's still possible to put together a booth of older equipment that will put on a beautiful show for about $15,000 or less -- I've seen it done for under $8,000. No THX for that money, but good optical stereo, a nice, bright image and solid, mechanically-reliable hardware. Just add in a relatively-cheap DTS player and you're off to the races.

      Now consider that just a single Digital projector will cost, conservatively, $150,000. That's without the B-chain sound hardware (amps, wiring, speakers, etc). Out of a $10 ticket price, the exhibitor MAY see $1 to $1.50 per ticket if they're lucky. Most couldn't increase the concession prices any higher without having a full-time loan officer on site, so that's not much of an option either.

      The problem is that Digital is still very much the buzzword-du-jour. It's still not ready for prime-time, but idiot movie-goers are prepared to sit through a vastly inferior presentation (unless a 35mm projectionbaboon screws up) just to say "I saw it in Digital. Duh."

      --
      Cheers, Peter, W2IRT
    6. Re:Bout time by W2IRT · · Score: 5, Informative
      You see those black ovals? Cigarette burns.

      Ahh....No. Those are Changeover cues. Two of them at the end of each 20-minute reel, the first separated by eight seconds from the second, and the second about 3/4 of a second from the last frame. Gives projectionists using older equipment the signal to startup the incoming projector with the light path blocked, then, at the second cue, instantaneously switch image and sound from one projector to the other for the next reel. It's the way it was done up util about the 80s or so. Now most cinemas have only one machine and a film transport system called a platter that handles the entire print. The problem is that one operator now handles an entire huge multiplex and is running from one booth to another, so he or she can't be around to catch any problems. Coupled to the fact most of these operators couldn't count their balls/boobs and get the same number twice, and you have the reason that 35mm projection is often so bad, especially in smaller cinemas.

      There are still many two-projector installations in the United States and Canada. I ran just about every one of them in Toronto in the 80s and 90s, and I still miss doing so to this day. Forget digital projection and stick with 35 and 70mm film. Just put properly-trained projectionists behind the equipment and the experience the movie-goer will get will be increased by an order of magnitude.

      --
      Cheers, Peter, W2IRT
    7. Re:Bout time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously you haven't seen "Fight Club" yet. :-)

      (Seriously, I recommend you to watch it. This is not the only common joke that film will explain to you!)

    8. Re:Bout time by darkjedi521 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I still run a 35mm changeover booth in the US. Its a college cinema, so we get stuff 4th or 5th hand, but occasionaly, some real gems slip through. I had the pleasure of running copy #1 of Dante's Peak (from the studio archives), and a never used copy of Ghostbusters in the last year. It takes some skill to pull of changeovers every 20 minutes and never miss a cue. If you go to a theater with a real, live operator in the projection booth, it makes a world of difference as any minor issues that crop up during the show will get found and fixed almost immedietly.

    9. Re:Bout time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, a good operator can make all the difference in the world. The difference is that with a changeover booth with carbon arc lamps (like the one I ran yesterday), you _need_ that operator. In the typical multiplex, you just need a button pusher.

      As for pops and scratches, that is _not_ part of the experience, and a print should be able to play for hundreds of shows and still look new. I know because I've done it.

      What makes anyone think that theatres that don't care about good film presentation will care about good digital presentation? Be prepared for bad sound, flickering bulbs, dead pixels, and out-of-focus images.

    10. Re:Bout time by W2IRT · · Score: 1
      Please mod this post up. Anybody who runs carbons and 2000' reels in this day and age deserves better than a zero score!

      Hundreds of shows? Hell, I've run year-old prints in grind houses that must have seen xenon at least 1500 times and that were still in decent shape! I miss my Peerless Magnarc Type G's and Super Simplexes from the Kingsway, dammit!!

      --
      Cheers, Peter, W2IRT
    11. Re:Bout time by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      "yeah we can have, frame dropouts, compression artifacts, media controled by DRM propritory formats."

      Proprietary DRM? What's that got to do with anything? It's for delivering content to a particular location, as opposed to delivering content on the net. Or are we crying foul every time DRM is used? Would you prefer they used password protected ZIP?

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    12. Re:Bout time by gustgr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I belive the major achievement for Brazilian Cinemas is that we'll got the movies faster than it is usually done. Sao Paulo and other few state capitals are the only one who plays the Movie along with the premiere release.

      I live in Marilia (about 400Km from Sao Paulo City), a city with a population of 200.000 and some movies takes 2 or 3 months to get here. Digital Cinema will short this waiting time.

    13. Re:Bout time by filmsmith · · Score: 1
      Your mention of 'color that just doesn't look "right"' remided me of a quote in reference to Lucia y el sexo:

      "The film's digital photography is inadequate to the task of filming under the bright sun of the island. A portentous zoom to the sun is almost ruined because the image is so overexposed you hardly notice the sun. Since voluptuous visuals were obviously part of Medem's plan, he should have used film. Digital is still too anorexic for his purposes." Roger Ebert.


      fs
    14. Re:Bout time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what is this THX magic of which you speak?

    15. Re:Bout time by darkjedi521 · · Score: 1

      I don't run the carbons, but you are on the money with the 2000' reels. We have xenons on the backend instead, and the capability to do 6000' reels. Most of our prints get run off 6000' changeovers, but I was attempting to point out some of the more special prints and the skill it takes to run those. Mod this and my original post down accordingly.

  4. 24fps vs. blocky video by ObviousGuy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I remember when I first heard that movies are filmed at a very slow 24fps. Compared to tv which changes the display at 60fps, the 24fps is very slow. However it is a result of the high resolution as well as the movement of the actors (as opposed to multiple still-lifes) which makes the movie indistinguishable from normal movement.

    Now take digital with its ability to blit high resolution graphics at very high framerates compared to traditional film. As good as these systems are, the loss in resolution due to compression is a killer. Though we may have all been agog at the CG used in the Star Wars prequels as well as the LoTR trilogy, much of the compression artifacts were still clearly visible. I don't think digital is ready for widespread usage yet. MHO, of course.

    In Brazil, it fascinates me that there are movie theaters where there are no roads.

    --
    I have been pwned because my /. password was too easy to guess.
    1. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      60hz =! 60fps!

      tv scans every second line so 60hz is only 30 fps

    2. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not sure about compression artifacts....but cg definitely to this very moment, still looks "soft" to me. not to mention the environments don't interact with objects correctly...

      nothing looks real any more.

      especially bad are all the animated jets, or vehicles in current movies....xmen, terminator, etc.

      don't these people know we saw Top Gun with real Tomcats flying ..against trainers?

      you could reach out and touch those planes....up on the big screen, you could sense their mass/momentum, and looked absolutely real...cause they were!

    3. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by pgr0ss · · Score: 3, Informative

      TV is actually only 30fps interlaced. One pass updates every other horizontal line, and the next pass updates the remaining lines, so there is the illusion of 60fps.

    4. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Ubi_NL · · Score: 3, Informative

      You are comparing apples and oranges

      TV does not have 60 fps. It just projects the image 60 times per second. This marks a fundamental difference between TV and cimema projection:

      * Cinemas project *the entire image* during the whole frame-time. The small blacks during image shifts are taken care of by your eyes (ever wondered why you do not see blackness when you blink normally?)

      * TV only projects a very small part of the image at the same time, and relies on afterglow of the projected area to make the image appear. By increasing the rate of the electron bundle, you get a more consistent brightness (less afterglow needed) and your image perception will improve.

      Your eyes are only capable of seeing 20-25 fps. This is why you do not see fluorescent links blink on and off. For this reason you will not notice when cimema projection will increase speed from 25-60 fps.

      --

      If an experiment works, something has gone wrong.
    5. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Just a little point. Your TV (I assume NTSC) is really only updating at 30fps. The signal is interlaced so every second 30 odd lines and 30 even lines are rendered, thus a full 30 frames are rendered per second. With PAL it is 25 or 50 interlaced frames per second.

    6. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting
      In Brazil, it fascinates me that there are movie theaters where there are no roads.

      I suppose they were thinking about distribution to, say, Manaus, which is a big city in the middle of the Amazon. There are additional delivery costs either by air or by water. A digital delivery scheme would be faster and cheaper.

      Nobody is building theaters where there is no basic infrastructure. There are just natural obstacles to be overcome, like the size of the country and the remoteness of some highly populated areas with good infrastructure.

      This is exactly like the US. You can hire a plane to deliver your movies, or you can put bits down a backbone. Guess which is becoming increasingly more attractive.

    7. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is actually 48 FPS (Sort of like interlaced) as while only 24 frames pass through the projector each is exposed to the projection lamp twice before being moved on.

    8. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by ThroatwobblerMangrov · · Score: 2, Informative

      The resolution of 35mm projection is amazingly bad. The area available for one image on film is just 16mm * 22mm, which is cropped to about 12mm * 22mm due to the widescreen format. That is a surface area of just 264 mm^2 on film, more than three times less than standard slides you take with your SLR camera. I don't know the technical details of the digital system in discussion but it should be no problem to beat 35mm film digitally.
      When it comes to IMAX, it's another story...

    9. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Flyboy+Connor · · Score: 1, Informative
      Actually, on tv films are shown 25 fps.

      The funny thing is that, since movies are taped 24 fps, movies on tv are often simply transmitting the 24 fps as 25 fps. A movie with a length of 1:40 will therefore only last 1:36 on tv. Of course, commercials stretch this to 2:30...

      Since I haven't watched any tv in the last 10 years, I don't know if this still happens with the rise of digital technology, but I have checked this a couple of times when I still spent 2 hours per night on the couch in front of the boob tube.

    10. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      This is simple not true. Can you tell if your monitor is refreshing at 60 or 100 hz? Yes. Otherwise there would be little point in having those refresh rates. Same goes for 100 hz televisions.

      In moving pictures the difference is quite clear as well. Being a demoscene kind of person I can asure you that I can tell the difference if say a tunnel is running at 35 or 70 fps.

      Also Television is effectively 50 fps, as a single interlaced image contains two points in time.

      The next time you watch a movie in a theater, try paying attention to what happens when the camera pans over some scene with objects close to you. It's not pretty. Sorry for ruining that part of your cinema experience :P

    11. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by KeyboardMonkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Your eyes are only capable of seeing 20-25 fps. This is why you do not see fluorescent links blink on and off. For this reason you will not notice when cimema projection will increase speed from 25-60 fps.

      20-25fps are sufficient with motion blur, which naturally occurs on motion film with long exposures. Film can start looking jittery when filmed in very bright outdoor scenes.

      60fps on computer games can look jittery because there is no exposure. It's just a rendered frame at that exact instant in time, and because of this your eyes can pick up on the sudden changes between frames. The effect is called temporal aliasing.

      Adding a motion blur, or simply blending with the previous frame can smooth out this affect.

      This generally should not be a problem with film images projected digitally.

    12. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by /dev/trash · · Score: 3, Funny

      Maybe YOU can't see the fluorescent blink off and on, but it annoys the living hell out of me.

    13. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      Only with PAL, only with PAL.

      The PAL system is a 50hz system as opposed to 60hz for NTSC (PAL has higher resolution than NTSC and better colors though) so movies shown in Europe are normally sped up by 4% to 25fps. When 24fps movies are broadcost in NTSC (or encoded onto DVDs) a special method called 3:2 pulldown is used. There is no speed increase when that method is used.

    14. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It may be 48hz but it is still only 24fps just as movies shown on TV are 60hz but the framerate is still 24fps.

    15. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by GregWebb · · Score: 1

      * 35mm film is anamorphic - you don't lose print space.
      * Believe me, I've seen the arguments many, many times and there's a strong body of opinion in favour of slow 35mm (=100ASA) over digital.
      * The complaint is largely centred around compression, anyway. They're doing a lot to get a full movie down to 5GB.

      --

      Greg

      (Inside a nuclear plant)
      Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!

    16. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your eyes are only capable of seeing 20-25 fps. This is why you do not see fluorescent links blink on and off. For this reason you will not notice when cimema projection will increase speed from 25-60 fps.

      you are so wrong.

      First off watching a film that WAS shot at 60Fps looks and "feels" different. the surreal feeling from the lack of temporal information that 24p that film has is no longer there. 60p has much more temporal information and therefore feels more real, things look crisper due to the major decrease of motion blur.

      you certianly CAN see a dramatic difference between 24P and higher framerates in film. I strongly suggest you do some more research as your information has major flaws..

      finally, ANYONE can see flouresent lamps flicker.. simply start drinking large amounts of coffee or espresso. you can bring your visual framerate up to the point where you can easily see the flicker in lights,monitors (ever wonder why your monitor looks better to you at 80hz?) and other items.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    17. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Ben+Hutchings · · Score: 1
      Cinemas project *the entire image* during the whole frame-time.

      No, they blink out once or twice per frame so each frame is shown 2 or 3 times over.

      TV only projects a very small part of the image at the same time, and relies on afterglow of the projected area to make the image appear.

      Normal CRTs rely on persistence of vision, the same as cinema projectors. The image on the screen fades very quickly. It is possible to make CRTs which fade slowly but this is generally undesirable since it results in a kind of motion blur (commonly seen on LCDs).

      Your eyes are only capable of seeing 20-25 fps.

      Nonsense. That's just a minimal rate to achieve the illusion of smooth motion. (Cheaply made cartoons often use a frame rate of 12.5 or 15 Hz but they do tend to look a bit jerky.)

    18. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Cesare+Ferrari · · Score: 1

      Your colour vision is slower than your peripheral black/white only vision. Your peripheral vision is probably faster to help you detect movement - i'm sure someone here will tell you why (or at least have an opinion, it is /. after all).

      If you don't look directly at a monitor such that it is still within your vision the flickering of slower frame rates is very obvious. For example, if you read a book placed on your desk in front of your monitor, you'll probably find the monitor distracting (since you see the flicker).

      So, no caffeine required!

    19. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by SFBwian · · Score: 1
      While I agree with the majority of the parent, I take issue with the following:
      Your eyes are only capable of seeing 20-25 fps. This is why you do not see fluorescent links blink on and off. For this reason you will not notice when cimema projection will increase speed from 25-60 fps.

      So, tell me why I should use anything other than 60hz refresh rate on my computer, even though 75, 85, and above all feel much better on my eyes? Why does a computer game running at constant 60fps look better than the same at constant 20 or 30?

      Really now, I thought this had been debunked enough times already.

      --
      I'm looking to get rich. I've got steps #2 (????) and #3 (PROFIT!) planned out, but am having trouble coming up with #1.
    20. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Film is recorded at 24fps but it is displayed at 72fps. Each frame is displayed 3 times. If it was actually shown at 24fps, you would see flickering.

    21. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by cluckshot · · Score: 1

      I guess my fellow US people just don't understand what is going on so I will try to clue them in.

      In the 3rd world there are no wires and no good roads and none of the stuff you and we take for granted as needed. What exists is a blank slate to write the new tech on without having the existing stuff like in the USA to slow it down. As such Wireless Telephones are in every hand. Movie theaters in the cities are often many times the size of anything we have ever seen in the USA. In small towns them may be as little as a HD TV Set.

      I myself in the USA have an old VHS TV Recorder/player. My family in the Philippines who live where electrical power is irregular to say the least and the only phone service is wireless have DVD and full edit ability. It is time American (USA) gets a clue. They also all have cell phones.

      We are about to be seriously passed in tech areas if we don't get our political and social backsides up and start looking at reality. Internet in many areas of the world is via Sattelite or Wireless. The USA has the least penetration of Cell Phones. It has the most backwards tech in far too many areas.

      For those who disagree with me on this I have a suggestion. Go out and SEE.

      The movie business is better out there than in the USA. In the USA with our stupid management the movie business is just about out of business. In the rest of the world it is big business.

      Also another clue the USA is 2.5% of the world population and doesn't even have the largest city in the Americas any more. There are at least 10 cities in the Americas larger than any in the USA. There is at least one city in the Americas which is larger than all but one of our states in population. American (USA) had better get a clue and fast. This world is not like in 1900. (When we were 11% of the worlds pop. and the largest nation on earth with the youngest fastest growing population. Now we are nearly the oldest etc.)

      --
      Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
    22. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by spinkham · · Score: 1

      This is not exactly true. While film is recorded at 24 fps, it's usually shown with a shutter that flashes 2 or 3 times per frame, giving us a refresh rate of 48 or 72 refreshes per second.
      The reason you don't notice jerky movement so much at the theater is that ambiant light is so much less. Our brains need a much higher refresh rate when our eyes are adjusted to bright light then when they are dark adjusted as in a theater.
      That's why theaters use 24 fps, tv's use about 60, and computer monitors in bright situations need over 80 to be able to stop seeing the flickering.
      The reason tv uses interlaced frames is that at the time of standarization, it would have taken too much bandwith to do progressive, so interlacing was the solution.
      Film also blurs nicely in fast motion, so that's another reason why you don't notice the movement so much.
      Oh, and BTW, your ability to see the flourescent lights blink depends not only on other ambiant light, but mostly on the quality of the balast. Modern electronic balasts remove most all of the flashing effects, where older and still cheaper passive balasts do not.

      --
      Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
    23. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Von+Helmet · · Score: 1

      I can see it with some lights, and I've heard other people complain about it too.

      I remember seeing a TV show about a family with 4 kids with autism, and one of the kids had huge issues with seeing the flourescent lights flashing, and couldn't concentrate in school as a result of it. I don't recall what they did about it though.

    24. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Suidae · · Score: 1

      Your eyes are only capable of seeing 20-25 fps.

      Maybe average eyes only see 20-25 fps, but my perihiperal vision easily picks up flicker at up to 60Hz (70Hz is just a hair beyond my perception), particularly in bright white fields. This is why I dislike going to movies unless they are dark movies. Movies with any kind of daylight scenes while definately watchable, I find very annoying to watch because of the flicker (and the annoying film grain, but thats probably just because I'm used to the 'grain' of a Trinitron or shadowmask display).

      Will I like digital compression artifacts better? I don't know, but I'd rather see a bit of that than distracting flicker.

    25. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by ThroatwobblerMangrov · · Score: 1

      Wrong, most films are shot open matte today to allow for a TV-Version without black bars. This method is not compatible with Panavision or Cinemascope. Most cinemas don't even have anamorphotic projection lenses any more. The compression argument makes sense if they really crunch down a whole movie to 5 gigs.

    26. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by cubic6 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, most of us *can't* see any higher than around 60hz. You might be able to, but you're the exception. Similar to people who have a better range of hearing. For most of us, 100hz televisions and moniters are completely unnecessary, not least because the input usually isn't 100hz anyways.

      --
      Karma: Contrapositive
    27. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by visgoth · · Score: 1

      Tv is different framerates depending on the standard . In North America we use ntsc, which is 29.97fps. From what I understand Europe has two standards, Pal and Secam, both running at 25fps.

      --
      My patience is infinite, my time is not.
    28. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The size of the country? At its widest, Brazil is about half as wide as California is tall. It's really not all that sizable. The real problem is that their Highways are laid out in the least logical style possible, and you can't truck things places in a reasonable amount of time. What takes us a few hours in the states, because we have highways running all over the place, will take you all day in Brazil. I think the other cost we're not considering here is duplication, it must cost quite a bit to make those big film reels, and then they're pretty large, so distributing a lot of them will be expensive.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    29. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by agslashdot · · Score: 1

      Not quite. In the US, tv scans every second line so 60hz is only 30 fps. Specifically, NTSC = 30 fps PAL = 25 fps = much closer to 24 fps, which is one reason most indies shot using a camcorder opt for a PAL camcorder than an NTSC one. The Canon XL1 PAL version, the Sony PD150 PAL, the Panasonic VX100 PAL outsell their NTSC versions for the same reason.

    30. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Rotten168 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A couple of things:

      Yes, occasionally existing tech can slow down new technology, especially in terms of infrastructure. The problem is that there is no easy solution to it.

      The same is true for a population that is older and not as willing to embrace new technology. The problems you mentioned exist in all industrialized countries to a larger extent (the US has an aging population but it has the second youngest population among deleloped countries and the fastest growing population).

      In regards to population we have approximately 5% of the population. NYC is the second or third largest city in the world if you look at metropolital areas... the US's affluence allows us to settle in a decentralized, sprawling pattern. Which is why they say that NYC has a population of 20 million.

      I've always wondered about people who are so concerned about stats about adoption of this or that technology. They simply just do not understand economics.

      Everything you mentioned is a problem in just about every developed country including the US.

      Complaining about population is a funny thing... first off the US is the fastest growing developed country. But other than that what do you propose to do about it? I mean we could force women in some way to have children, we could grow kids in artificial wombs, or we could just nuke other countries (not to be arrogant, just proving a point).

      Maybe you would like the US to develop third world population patterns where there are a few rich people and a horde of peasants who rapidly reproduce due to no birth control education or women's rights... and have our population crowd into massive cities because that's all they can afford.

    31. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by cens0r · · Score: 2, Informative

      Brazil is the fifth largest country in the world. It's larger than australia and the continental united states. Not to mention that it is filled with dense rainforest that makes travel almost impossible.

      --
      Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
    32. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      "tv scans every second line so 60hz is only 30 fps"

      Wrong, TV is 60fps interlaced.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    33. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by NanoGator · · Score: 2, Interesting
      "TV does not have 60 fps. It just projects the image 60 times per second."

      I hope you realize that sentence reads like a TV only works at 1 fps, this is wrong of course.

      Alright, everybody seems confused about how TVs work. Well let me start by saying, yes, TVs do operate at 60 fps. You are getting 60 distinct frames of animation per second on a TV. But before you hit that reply button to tell me I'm wrong, keep reading.

      TV's only have enough bandwidth to interpret 30 frames per second at 720 by 480 resolution. In order to achieve this higher frame rate, they halved the resolution vertically and doubled the frame rate. So in one second, in interlaced mode, you're getting 60 half-res frames per second. They are half frames, but there are also still 60 distinct frames of animation. This is not an illusion, nor is it a trick to keep your eyes from noticing the flicker. It really is 60 frames per second. (Sorry for being redundant, but man I can't believe how many people have commented on this so far.)

      So now to address what you've said:

      "* Cinemas project *the entire image* during the whole frame-time. The small blacks during image shifts are taken care of by your eyes (ever wondered why you do not see blackness when you blink normally?)"


      Yes, this is basically true. Films run at 24 fps progressive scan. And yes, your eyes retain the light long enough that you don't see flickers. But to add to this, it's important to know that each frame is thrown up twice. The result is actually 48fps. No, this is NOT like the TV example above. You don't get 48fps of motion, even interlaced, you get 24 fps of motion displayed at 48 fps so that you get less light flicker. (Note: From what I understand, this may only be true on certain projectors, been a while since I looked into it.)

      "Your eyes are only capable of seeing 20-25 fps."


      This is not true. Human eyes can percieve motion all the way up to 100fps. What you are describing is not the same thing as frame rate. It has to do with retention of light. When you get into the 20 fps range, you stop seeing flicker and start seeing blur. Things may streak, that doesn't mean you're not getting temporal resolution in there. I guess it's sort of like watching an LCD do 60 fps video. Notice it ghosts a little? You're still getting 60 distinct frames per second of video, but it gets a little ghosty.

      " This is why you do not see fluorescent links blink on and off."


      No argument here. It supports my above point.

      " For this reason you will not notice when cimema projection will increase speed from 25-60 fps."


      This is not a logical conclusion to draw. First, your understanding is flawed. Second, there is plenty of evidence to the contrary, just on this site alone. Show somebody a game running at 30 fps, then at 60 fps, and the gamer will say "that one is smoother". Ask anybody who works in animation. Ask anybody who works in broadcast. Yes, 60fps video on a movie screen will be noticable. You know how I know this? Because my local theater has a digital projector for showing commercials before a movie. They were running at 60fps, and it was quite different than the cinematic look. I wasn't the only one who noticed that.
      --
      "Derp de derp."
    34. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you look close, you'll see that the light is "fuzzy" somehow.

      Yeah, it can be annoying, but you have to learn to ignore it...

    35. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by forgoil · · Score: 1

      I have trouble when the movies pan sideways (etc) at 24fps in cinemas. It jumps so much it gets both annoying and unsettling. I sure would like to get a higher fps, especially since it is more than possible with todays technology.

      And speaking of technology, if they compress one high resolution movie down to 5GB, what kind of sound do they output? It's bad enough to go to a cinema and pay (nowdays) a silly amount of money to get Dolby Digital, espcially when the movie is out on DTS _AND_ the cinema can play it.

      I was looking forward to digital cinema (I can see low bitrate problems with DCT, so MPEG2 nor MPEG4 will get through me, and I'm not even good at finding them!) with great sound (Apparently rumours about uncompressed sound was just that roumours -_-). Apparently what we will get is the 1337 DivX wannabes. I can just as well watch the releases on the net then...

    36. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Ziviyr · · Score: 1

      60 fps is no illusion. One whole field is rendered every 1/60th of a second. While it takes twice that long to light up all the pixels, its not an illusion.

      Go to the theater if you want illusions of higher rates (double shuttering?).

      --

      Someone set us up the bomb, so shine we are!
    37. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DTS and Dolby Digital are fairly similar quality with Dolby haveing certain advantagess and DTS having others.

      Just a note that DTS on DVD's is actually 4.1 witht the extra chanels multiplexed in. eg not real 5.1 or 6.1 as in cinemas.

    38. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by corsec67 · · Score: 1

      100 Hz television? I need to get myself one of those. I cannot be in the room with a monitor running at less than 75 Hz, and hate using a Computer at less than 85 Hz.

      Towards the end of TLoR:TRTK, I couldn't look at the screen because of the flashing of the screen. And when it faded to white, I swore.

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
    39. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by afluffybunny · · Score: 0

      You are incorrect a bunch of ways. First, as someone else mentions, tv is actually 30 fps, interlaced. so you scan every other line, then the other half of the lines, so the electron beam makes 60 passes a second.

      Second, if movies were projected at straight 24 frames per second, you would see lots of flicker. But, film is in a way 48 fps. The light is blocked when the frame is moved into place. after the frame is in place, the light is unblocked. The light is then blocked off again, but the frame is not changed. The process then repeats.

      This gives 48 flashes a second, which fools your eyes as far as flicker goes (although, I can see it in scenes with lots of white).

      --
      -fear the penguins, for they are short and stubby and show no mercy.
    40. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "tv scans every second line so 60hz is only 30 fps"

      Wrong, TV is 60fps interlaced.


      I take it you don't know what the word "interlaced" means, do you?

    41. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      "I take it you don't know what the word "interlaced" means, do you?"

      I take it you don't know what 'frames per second' means, do you?

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    42. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Higher refresh rates make the image look less flickering, regardless of input. And for tv, it makes sense to use a multiplier of the framerate, thus 100hz.

      Anyway the point I was making was that you can easily see higher than 25hz.

    43. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Ricardo+Lima · · Score: 1

      I believe your geography is a bit off. Brazil at its widest is 4319.4 km or 2683.95 miles and at its talles it is 4394.7 km or 2730.74 miles. If you were correct, California would be 5367,9 miles. It seems that California is 770 miles tall and 250 miles wide. California's area is 163,695.57 square miles and Brazil's is 3,300,015.15 square miles so we can fit 20 Californias in Brazil and still have some space.

      --
      Ricardo da Silva Lima
    44. Re:24fps vs. blocky video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Cinemas project *the entire image* during the whole frame-time

      actually, movies are effectively projected at 48 frames per second; each frame is projected twice.

      from http://www.miracosta.cc.ca.us/home/mnolte/movproj. html :

      "The reason this rapid series of still images appears as fluid motion on the screen is due to a phenomenon of human eyesight called "persistance of vision". The eye cannot distinguish still image that flash at more than 1/17th of a second--when the image disappears, the image on the retina remains for a split second. What the eye can detect is an apparent flutter of the projected image near 1/17th of a second. To eliminate the effect, the projector also closes the shutter in the middle of each frame, so each frame of film is really shown twice at 1/48th of a second."
  5. It's not really unexpected... by venomix · · Score: 2, Insightful

    that they choose to base this kind of project om Windows Media Player, since most poeple still look at linux, with for example mplayer, as untested and possibly unreliable technology. Although a system running linux/mplayer would probably be better, people still hang on to what is familiar to them.

    1. Re:It's not really unexpected... by REBloomfield · · Score: 1
      Although a system running linux/mplayer would probably be better

      And why's that then?

      Just like the oh-so-amusing blue screen joke at the top, the linux geeks have to bounce up and down because someone chose not to use open source....

    2. Re:It's not really unexpected... by Sicnarf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      i'm just curious, why would linux/mplayer be probably better?

    3. Re:It's not really unexpected... by Jotaigna · · Score: 0

      is like the "stick to whatever works" way. However i have been looking for the "definitive" linux media player and noone has an answer for it. In windows there are many players completely stable and versatile like bsplayer or the very own WMP. Linux is still not mature enough for some industries.



      The Brazilian electronic ballot rules anyway!.

      --
      "The quality of life is inversely proportional to the number of keys on your keyring."
    4. Re:It's not really unexpected... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm the poster of that blue screen joke (Posting AC because this will get modded down).

      Believe you me when I tell you I think the OSS movement is one of the funniest things in computer history.

      Of course they're going to use MS. Wouldn't you? They are a huge corporation capable of such nicities as tech support that the linux companies cannot and will not provide.

      If I was in this situtation I'd go with MS too.

    5. Re:It's not really unexpected... by venomix · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Well, it might not be better to just run it out of the box, but my personal experience is that mplayer is a better movie player than wmp, so a system built on that I think would be better.
      You're right though that I'm not at all objective in this matter =)

    6. Re:It's not really unexpected... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Has the mplayer project stopped illegally distributing Microsoft's codecs yet?

    7. Re:It's not really unexpected... by REBloomfield · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I was actually waiting for the parent to reply, but my point was that they used WMP because they wanted to use DRM features, and I can see them coming soon in an mplayer near you....It believe it was an attempt score karma by whoring the L word.

      Don't get me wrong on the linux bashing front - I use it daily, but it winds me up when zealots complain when it isn't used in every situation.

    8. Re:It's not really unexpected... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. Zealotry in all of its forms is lame. Those anti-DRM posts are made by people who are in a dream world. One of the lovely byproducts of the OSS movement is a bunch of tech geeks that don't understand the concept of money and profit.

    9. Re:It's not really unexpected... by REBloomfield · · Score: 1

      It's not anti money and profit, it's the anti censorship/control. Wake up to the real world, most of us aren't hippies. But enough of this :)

    10. Re:It's not really unexpected... by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      Linux/Mplayer would be better because it is Open Source. Therefore, you are not beholden to any single entity. With Windows, Bill Gates has you over a barrel: if you don't accede to his demands, however outrageous they may get, he can cut you off and leave you for dead.

      It's sort of like why, before 1994, almost any country's apples -- no matter how minging they may have tasted -- were better than South African apples. It's a human rights thing. As the end-users of a project generally outnumber original authors, so their real right to access and modify the source code outweighs any supposed right of the author to keep it secret.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    11. Re:It's not really unexpected... by REBloomfield · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Or you could carry on using the previous version, just like you're free to with Open Source. Open Source projects can change for the bad as well you know, just take a look at the mess the X Project has become.

      In this situation, Linux/MPlayer would be *worse*, because it is not capabable of the requirements for the project. And until the OSS community wakes up and realises that it needs to cater to the needs of the world, and not just their hippy ideals, then it has no chance of being a success on the desktop.

    12. Re:It's not really unexpected... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to capitalist society.

      If you don't like it, might I suggest Soviet Russia?

    13. Re:It's not really unexpected... by REBloomfield · · Score: 1

      Erm.. hello? So information should be completely free then? No Copyright, no Data Protection etc etc??

    14. Re:It's not really unexpected... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Uh, of course mplayer is quite capable of displaying video with resolutions of 1440x1080p and 1280x720 on Linux today, using both WM9 DLLs and mplayer's built-in codecs.

      But, look at the mess that Microsoft's DRM has become, with tools such as freeme.exe (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/WM7 /DRM/freemefix.aspx) which can circumvent the "security" of their media files.. Who do you think will bear the cost the next time Microsoft's format is broken? You can bet it won't be Microsoft! ;)

    15. Re:It's not really unexpected... by sepiachrome · · Score: 1

      It's sort of like why, before 1994, almost any country's apples -- no matter how minging they may have tasted -- were better than South African apples. It's a human rights thing.

      DRM =! apartheid

      grow up, geek

    16. Re:It's not really unexpected... by ajs318 · · Score: 1
      Or you could carry on using the previous version, just like you're free to with Open Source.
      No, you can't -- that's the myth that closed-source vendors push, but it doesn't work in real life. Ever tried to load a Word XP file into, say, Word 6.0? Microsoft et al deliberately change their file formats every couple of years, for the express purpose of making old software unusable.
      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    17. Re:It's not really unexpected... by AlecC · · Score: 2, Informative

      I also hear from people with a real interest in it that Windows Media 9 is seriously better quality for the same bit rate than any of the Open Source formats. You may not like it, but M$ have identified multimedia, and particularly moving pictures, as a major driver for future development. They have spent real money developing their proprietary format and, from the reports I have heard, it works.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    18. Re:It's not really unexpected... by general_re · · Score: 1
      No, you can't -- that's the myth that closed-source vendors push, but it doesn't work in real life. Ever tried to load a Word XP file into, say, Word 6.0? Microsoft et al deliberately change their file formats every couple of years, for the express purpose of making old software unusable.

      Yes, you can. Your analogy is inapposite because this isn't an open distribution system, where the theaters might have to decode some random piece of video sent to them by some random person - they know exactly what they're getting once the system is in place, and hence they have no reason to change it later on. Once the decision is made that the central office will distribute content in WMP 9/MPEG4 format, then it really makes no difference to them what WMP 14 does five years down the line, as they neither want nor need to switch - they control both ends of the content pipeline here, and therefore don't need to worry about what the rest of the world is doing.

      --
      ABSURDITY, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.
    19. Re:It's not really unexpected... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      testing

    20. Re:It's not really unexpected... by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      "Although a system running linux/mplayer would probably be better, people still hang on to what is familiar to them."

      Maybe they'd prefer clicking a mouse to memorizing case sensitive commands.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    21. Re:It's not really unexpected... by gustgr · · Score: 1

      In Brazil (at South and Sao Paulo mainly) Linux is gaining ground. Conectiva Inc. is a good example, as well all Brazilian Federal Universities

      I belive the main reason WMP will be used is that Microsoft have offered some "advantage" fearing the Linux and Free Software menace.

      By the way, the sitcom that produced "The Normal Ones" is the 5th bigger TV company over the World, "Globo Organizations". That might have influence on the case.

  6. Fast VPN.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    That's a fast VPN.. 5 Gigabytes in 20 minutes works out to about 4.3 Megabytes/second, or 34 Megabits/second.

    1. Re:Fast VPN.. by Ziviyr · · Score: 1

      Umm, 4.3MB/s easily achieved on a 100Mb/s network, which is cheapo consumer level stuff.

      I don't fear that theaters would have much trouble stringing one or two CAT5 cables across the town.

      --

      Someone set us up the bomb, so shine we are!
  7. Episode III NOT coming to any theaters near you by emily_the_dragonet · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Hollywood has made halting forays into digital cinema - George Lucas says that he will show the next Star Wars installment, due out next year, in theaters only with digital capability. But the cost of converting theaters to digital and concerns over piracy has the US movie industry moving in slow motion

    Episode III, not coming to any theaters near you anytime soon. How many will just go to see it even if they know it's bad when they can't even drop down to their local theater? Nobody will inconvinience themselves for a movie who's draw is mainly "I just want to see how the thingends already". Of course maybe it won't be bad, but what are the odds of that?
    1. Re:Episode III NOT coming to any theaters near you by Angry+Toad · · Score: 4, Funny

      I think you're missing the point here. Clearly the reason many people didn't like Episodes I and II was that they saw them in analog. Jar-jar isn't funny in analog, only in high-clarity digital. Lucas understands this and is trying to help us all to really get his film-making genius.

    2. Re:Episode III NOT coming to any theaters near you by betelgeuse-4 · · Score: 2, Funny

      "I just want to see how the thingends already"

      I believe the ending to Episode III is available on DVD already. It's called Episode IV - A New Hope.

    3. Re:Episode III NOT coming to any theaters near you by CvD · · Score: 1

      So you mean 'high hilarity' digital? That would explains things...

    4. Re:Episode III NOT coming to any theaters near you by notbob · · Score: 0

      I'm still waiting for the Diet version... where you trim off the fat of idiotic unncessary characters who cannot speak proper english...

      aka the Episode 1 - Murder of JarJar and
      Episode 2 - Torchure the Remains of JarJar
      and finally
      Episode 3 - Star Wars... JarJar Free at last

    5. Re:Episode III NOT coming to any theaters near you by ncc74656 · · Score: 1
      I believe the ending to Episode III is available on DVD already. It's called Episode IV - A New Hope.

      Since when have Episodes IV-VI become available on DVD? (A local Sam's Club was using a laserdisc-to-DVD transfer of Return of the Jedi as a demo disc, but that doesn't count. I'm fairly sure Fox doesn't distribute movies on DVD+Rs with hand-scribbled labels.)

      --
      20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
  8. DRM? psst by AmVidia+HQ · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Wonder how long before it's cracked? This is going to bring a whole new meaning to Screeners ^.^

    Can someone comment on the security and encryption of WMV9?

    --
    VIVA1023.com | Political Fashion.
    1. Re:DRM? psst by CdBee · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oddly enough, that's the first thing I thought

      For the movie industry to start issuing DivX copies of its films may prove regrettable

      --
      I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
    2. Re:DRM? psst by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's pretty difficult to crack the encryption if you don't have a license already. If you do have a license, it's pretty easy to strip the DRM from it by unencrypting it. There are tools out to strip DRM from audio files for which you have license files. I haven't been able to find tools that do the same for video files.

    3. Re:DRM? psst by Molina+the+Bofh · · Score: 1

      Maybe an easier solution would be a device that captures the (VGA | DVI) output. Or, even cheaper, a software that captures the frames. Even if it has protections against this kind of software, you could run it in a virtual machine, like Vmware.

      Does anyone know of a movie-capturing software ?

      --

      -
      Roses are #FF0000, Violets are #0000FF, find / -name '*base*' |xargs chown -R us && mv zig greatjustice
    4. Re:DRM? psst by trezor · · Score: 1
      • Maybe an easier solution would be a device that captures the (VGA | DVI) output.

      I really have to disagree on this one.

      It believe it's easier to decrypt an allready compressed stream, than to capture, recompress and write to disk cinema-class high-definition video-content.

      If the this is anything like say HDTV (to be modest) real-time compression will be pretty impossible in any reasonable format with any available standard-hardware. Even the less the ability to write the data to disk at the speeds this would require.

      I believe that decryption is the only viable option. But that will, on the other side (as allready mentioned) provide killer screeners for our p2p-networks!

      --
      Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
    5. Re:DRM? psst by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shhhh. :-)

    6. Re:DRM? psst by Dark+Lord+Seth · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wait for the source code to leak, heh

    7. Re:DRM? psst by JamesP · · Score: 1

      Can someone comment on the security and encryption of WMV9?

      Maybe microsoft...

      cat wmp9.c | grep "encryption"

      --
      how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
    8. Re:DRM? psst by kilonad · · Score: 1

      As much of the internet is finding out thanks to the recent release of the 37-minute Paris Hilton video, WMV9 is a complete bitch to try and crack. It encrypts the actual video stream with public/private key encryption, kind of like PGP. Sadly, it looks like Microsoft actually had a clue (from the perspective of DRM at least) when they put Windows Media 9 together.

    9. Re:DRM? psst by FattMattP · · Score: 1
      Can someone comment on the security and encryption of WMV9?
      Sure.

      /*
      * XOR content stream with key "billrules"
      */

      --
      Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
    10. Re:DRM? psst by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since files are passive collections of data, then isn't DRM on files are nothing more than a "KEEP OUT" sign. Windows Media Player respects DRM, but what keeps someone from developing a program which ignores/decrypts the DRM on the file?

    11. Re:DRM? psst by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Encryption is a large part of the DRM.

      You're not cracking encryption by taking a key and decrypting it, you're just making a fool out of whoever gave you the key.

      And decrypting it won't strip it of all the DRM (just the major access limiting part, of course).

    12. Re:DRM? psst by peggus · · Score: 1

      A rip of the WMV9 file movie theaters get would not be labeled screener, instead a new tag would have to be invented to properly describe the release.

      Uhm, you mean like "wildfeed"?
      http://www.wordspy.com/words/wildfeed.asp

    13. Re:DRM? psst by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know why I bother, but wildfeed isn't used to tag any release type today. It could be used, but it wouldn't be ideal since the movie could just as well be taken from whatever media the movie is being stored at in the theater.
      What's important is of course to have a tag that people can easily understand, both when it comes to the source and the quality you can expect from it.

  9. Re:More here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    wow, a troll that can't even link to an image properly. You must be new...

  10. The experience in India. by The+Cydonian · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I remember reading a similar thing for India's rural cinemas as well:-
    No longer do you need to transport 50 kg of film reels in canisters.Instead, the movie will be stored in a high-capacity disc drive about double the size of a cigarette pack which will be couriered to the hall where the film can be downloaded to the server. Also, it'll be a digitally encrypted signal with an access password. This, to keep the pirates at bay. While a conventional print costs Rs 60,000-80,000, digital images come at only about 10 per cent of the expense, at Rs 3,000-8,000 for a disc.
    The weight of the stuff they're carrying obviously matters here.
    1. Re:The experience in India. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ooooo...a challenge! Digitally encrypted you say, with an access password...sounds tough...oh, wait a minute...based on M$ Media Player and .NET? Oh, yeah, the company that is "serious" about security...geez, might take all of 5 minutes to crack...=)

    2. Re:The experience in India. by rkhalloran · · Score: 1

      Also consider that unlike film, in theory you could recycle HDs with new content, reducing the distribution costs even further. Whether it will make sense with the plummeting cost of drives to reuse or just toss 'em would have to be worked out.

    3. Re:The experience in India. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've yet to see proof that WM9 had been compromised

    4. Re:The experience in India. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      optical audio out -> optical audio in

      there's your proof

  11. Brazil largly unpopulated by Frans+Faase · · Score: 0

    Due to it large unpopulated areas, the only suitable means of transportation is often to fly by plain instead of driving by car.

  12. Costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I run an independant Cinema and the cost per film is approximately 200-250 per showing. A lot of this cost is distribution and storage of the prints, so if digital projection happens then I would expect to see a suitable reduction in costs.

    Prints wear out, which is why the image gets worse over time, however the resolution of 35mm is much greater than that of most digital systems that I know of.

    DVD and DiVX look Awful on a big screen as you can see the artifacts on the system. This asks the question how it can be suitable for the large cinema screens.

    Also converting a cinema to digital, while still having the ability to show film is going to be expensive. So who should pay the cinema, or the company that is saving millions on costs.

    Another interesting point is do the distributers and films companies apporvie of the system?
    If not it will die on it's feet before it even starts.

    Call this a biased opinion from somebody who maintains windows servers (The cinema is in my spare time) but I can't see it being that long before the MS DRM (or any other system for that matter) is broken.

    If this happens then all releases will go back to film as piracy is such a concern.

    1. Re:Costs by imag0 · · Score: 1

      ...so if digital projection happens then I would expect to see a suitable reduction in costs.

      With all due respect, the words "like hell you will" spring immediately to mind.

      It's just another type of lock-in and the only people going to make bank off it is Microsoft and whomever they bought off to cook something like this up.

    2. Re:Costs by parksie · · Score: 1

      DVDs are only at about 720xsomething resolution, someone's DVD copied to DivX may be less, since they're anticipating it being viewed on a screen.

      DivX and XviD are MPEG-4 as well, same as WMV9. Higher-resolution source, and throw a few more gigabytes at it, and DivX/XviD will do you fine.

    3. Re:Costs by makapuf · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What prevents me from making a DIVX in hyper good resolution/quality ? (aside from tweaking the codecs so that the parameters will be optimized for such resolutions ?)

      Of course the crappy screener on 320*240 won't be that fantastic on imax, but what about 10000x10000 pixels with a good compression ratio ? (or better)

      That's something that i've been wondering, why not use comrpession to remove unvisible information while using the added bandwith / capacity for increased quality ? (example: 1hour of 96khz 48 bits audio on a CD would be great to hear - better than an uncompressed CD i'd think)

      Besides, is it WM9 or MPEG4 ? I thought the chosen MPEG4 standard container was qt)

    4. Re:Costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      200-250 What? It's bad enough that you guys use all kinds of weird units, but you could _at_least_ tell us which ones! :P

    5. Re:Costs by fruey · · Score: 1
      "why not use comrpession (sic) to remove unvisible (sic) information"

      That's what it does. "Psycho-visual" and "psycho-acoustic" modelling removes stuff that you can't really see or hear respectively, that's what MPEG compression schemes are all about! Any lossy format has to remove something from the data stream.

      --
      Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
    6. Re:Costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I did use the pound sign but for some reason it got stripped.

      Just like the one i put here () i guess

    7. Re:Costs by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      If this happens then all releases will go back to film as piracy is such a concern.

      Because there's no black market in pirating analog movies now, certainly.

      (The comment's meant only to be ironic, I agree with you essentially.)

      --
      -Styopa
    8. Re:Costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DVD and DiVX look Awful on a big screen as you can see the artifacts on the system. This asks the question how it can be suitable for the large cinema screens.

      They'll use a great technology.. called blurring...

    9. Re:Costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remove unvisible information? That's unpossible

    10. Re:Costs by spinkham · · Score: 1

      Actually, those are little more then tuning parameters, and do little more then help you target a bitrate.
      The magic happens in video mostly through only coding the difference between pictures, including an algorithm that moves around parts of your scene. The Psycho-visual part has comes into play in trasmitting the colors in a expontential instead of linear scale, and chosing the quantization matrix used in the DCT. That's basically the part of the compression that is like choosing the quality of a JPEG, as the compression tech. is the same. The biggest savings is in only coding difference between pictures though, and mpeg 4's rather complex motion estimation algorithm.

      --
      Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
    11. Re:Costs by fruey · · Score: 1
      Sorry, but if you only code the difference between pictures, then you are lossless, because you can recreate the original stream perfectly.

      Psychovisual means a couple of things to me: using colour information in a different way, as you said... also making choices about luminosity in the same way (very dark areas have little detail to the eye, but to the computer there could be a lot of noise or whatever). This is why you get blockiness in areas of dark colours in badly encoded films, even on DVD.

      Motion estimation is there to predict changes, encode the prediction, and then make corrections where necessary I guess. But I take on board that some pyschovisual enhancements as stated in the codec settings are pretty much fine tuning, there are other more general psychovisual things happening, like you correctly said and as I have added to.

      In other words, transmitting colours onto an exponential scale is a psychovisual change, often the human eye doesn't feel the difference. Same as for what XviD calls 'lumi masking' and all sorts of other things which are trying to make us feel that much, much less data represents the same moving image, at least psychologically!

      Incidentally this whole thing is why JPEG handles gradual changes from one colour to another so badly, always if you make a graduation from light blue to dark blue over 255 steps in Photoshop then encode in JPEG you have blockiness, even at high quality encoding settings.

      --
      Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
    12. Re:Costs by makapuf · · Score: 1
      why not use compression to remove invisible information


      (typos fixed) : that quote would be more interesting if you RTF end of the sentence.

      while using the added bandwith / capacity for increased quality

      What do you mean when you say "Psycho-visual" and "psycho-acoustic" modelling removes stuff that you can't ?

      My idea was to use compression to improve perceived quality, bandwith being a constant.
    13. Re:Costs by westlake · · Score: 1

      so you think theater owners weren't already locked in to the limited number of distribution channels for 35 mm film?

    14. Re:Costs by fermion · · Score: 1
      I think that digital problems are not caused by the expense of converting cinemas. As you say, such a move would save producers, distributors, and even theater, large chunks of money. The costs of distributing a movie would become insignificant, and the theater costs would largely be determined by the lifetime of the digital projectors. More importantly, as more movies become natively digital, the cost of transferring to film will disappear.

      As you suggest, the biggest problem might be reliable DRM. It might be relatively easy to get a perfect copy of a film from a theaters computer and then sell perfect unlicensed copies. This would be a nightmare scenario for studios. Another issue might be that cutting the cost of distribution might cause more harm that good. If movies were cheap to distribute, if the cost of making copies became insignificant, and indeed the cost of film became nonexistent, would the studios have as much power? If the independent film maker were no longer obliged to sell perpetual rights to movie in exchange for distribution costs, where would studios earn their profits? If Pixar had been able to deliver harddisks to movie theaters, would they have ever signed with Disney?

      I think the major studios are worried about obsolescence. The quality of their films, as shown by the major award shows, are horrible. They make money by controlling the PR and availability of films. Distribution costs are not a major impediment to a 100 million dollar blockbuster, but it tends to keep the 100K flick out of serious competition.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  13. How will they get the movies? by broothal · · Score: 0, Redundant

    I think it's great that the movie industry finally wakes up and smells the java. Cudos to Brazil for this bold move. So - now they have this fancy all digital top notch movie theatre - where are the films? With Hollywood being overly paranoid over piracy, will they agree to upload their new blockbuster hit to a server in Brazil?

    And - while we're on the subject - will this result in more piracy? Or just better (picture) quality piracy? I think the answer is the latter. So - if this doesn't mean *more* piracy, then what's there to be afraind of, Hollywood?

    1. Re:How will they get the movies? by akb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Read The Fine Article:

      The majors are resistant to MPeg4 because since it is cheaper, uses smaller files and is easier to manipulate, the risk of piracy is seen as greater. For the time being, KinoCast machines will only be able to project independent and Brazilian movies, where there is less fear of piracy.

    2. Re:How will they get the movies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      May be the cinemas can download the 0 days screeners like everyone else ? ;)

    3. Re:How will they get the movies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hollywood is not that afraid of piracy, in this case, the problem is the huge costs involved in the move from analog to digital.
      Hollywood doesn't want to pay for this, the movie theaters (mostly) can't afford it, not to mention the competition, let's say your city have a couple of theaters and one has changed to digital, it's now "fashion" to go to the digital one, while the other will slowly lose its clients, and they can't also afford to change to digital, so, in the end, less movie theaters around...
      sad, but seems that is a big problem.

  14. Digital projection is clearer than film by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Even though most digital projection systems are lower resolution than film they appear higher resolution when projected since there is no film gate weave as the film moves through the tranport mechanism of the projector.

  15. Distribution system by nmg196 · · Score: 5, Funny

    It takes 20 minutes to distribute a 90-minute film over a VPN and the system

    The distribution system used by Rain Networks is available for free here...

  16. If you RTA, you could see that they use satellite by blorg · · Score: 2, Informative

    The films are then beamed by satellite from Rain's central computer in Sao Paulo to picture houses across the country. Depending on bandwidth, it can take as little as 20 minutes to send a 90-minute film to a theater.

  17. Bit rate by Shinglor · · Score: 5, Informative

    5GB for a whole movie? Assuming the movies goes for 90 minutes thats 7.5Mbps.

    That's only a little past the bit rate of the average DVD. Sure MPEG-4 is more efficient than MPEG-2 but when you take into account the high definition resolution (1280x960 or higher) there are sure to be visible artefacts.

    1. Re:Bit rate by LordK2002 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      IIRC standard DVD rate is around 11 Mbps, although I guess this could be the maximum rather than the average.

      MPEG-4 is more efficient at low bitrates than MPEG-2/1. I am not sure that MPEG-4 encoding is even capable of reaching 7.5 Mbps - the maximum I have seen for DivX movies is around 2 Mbps with the minimum quantiser used for all frames. For high bitrates I believe MPEG-2 is actually better, so I am not sure why they propose MPEG-4 for this purpose.

      K

    2. Re:Bit rate by fruey · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well DVD movies are only 720x576, but "projectable movie" resolution is going to be at least double in both width and height, leaving your max 2mbps to become around 8mbps which fits perfectly with the 7.5mbps, minimum quantiser and max number of I frames. DVD encoding is around the 9mbps mark IIRC... it maxes out before 10mbps (9800kbps?) in the official standard.

      --
      Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
    3. Re:Bit rate by trezor · · Score: 2, Informative
      • I am not sure that MPEG-4 encoding is even capable of reaching 7.5 Mbps - the maximum I have seen for DivX movies is around 2 Mbps with the minimum quantiser used for all frames.

      DivX: One MPEG4-implementation
      MPEG4: A video-compression spesification

      Just because DivX doesn't provide higher rates than 2Mbps, doesn't mean MPEG4 doesn't. And to be honest, I think this restriction only applies to DivX3.11 and older versions.

      If you check out XviD, I'm pretty sure you can specify any bitrate, even if it doesn't make sense.

      And remember that most DivX/XviD/MPEG4-content you see these days are DVD-rips, and thus doesn't need any higher bitrate, because the resolution is so low.

      If you jack up the resolution, say 16 times (4x4 increase), I'll bet you can use the higher bitrates you'll all of a sudden need.

      And if you wonder: They have chosen MPEG4 because MPEG4 provides better compression than MPEG2. I thought that was kinda obvious, in "go figure"-bigtime-style. No need to waste bandwidth, really.

      --
      Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
    4. Re:Bit rate by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      MPEG-4 consumes more CPU than MPEG-2. This is why you rarely see high bitrate MPEG-4; nothing will be able to play it. To play a fairly high bitrate DivX movie in full screen at 1024x768 scaled, and using 32bpp color, takes roughly a 600 or 700MHz machine to do smoothly. (I had a 450 and it was getting into the neighborhood but not really all that close. That machine could play DVDs because it had ATI motion acceleration, but you had to use the specifically accelerated DVD player.) An approximately DVD bitrate DivX would probably require a ~1GHz machine.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Bit rate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I also think these bitrate numbers are somewhat questionable.

      In the broadcast TV industry, 10 Mbits/sec MPEG2 is pretty much as slow as they'll go for standard def content (at least for inside the studio, when the do the final encode to send to the satellite it's lower). HD stuff is generally encoded at 20-50 Mbps. "Stock" digital TV channels to the home are 19 Mbps for HD and 4.5 Mbps for SD. And this is only TV images, I'm pretty sure you'd want higher quality for a movie.

      The numbers in the article show 7.5 Mbps for the MPEG4 encoding, and that ain't no 15 times smaller than MPEG2. Doing the math, that implies MPEG2 is 111 Mbps, which it isn't. Last I heard, the rule of thumb is MPEG4 might be half the size of comparable quality MPEG2. So, 7.5 Mbps MPEG4 would be about the same video quality as 15 Mbps MPEG2, which would be pretty marginal on the big screen.

  18. Lack of Public Roads by mumblestheclown · · Score: 2, Interesting
    if they don't have roads, how high up on their priority list should "Gigli" be?

    data on disc is about the smallest thing you can imaginable. there is no place on earth with a digital projector to which such a disc can not be delivered along with whatever other items come in to the outside world. no exceptions.

    at this particular state in time, should we really be cheering technologies that, however impressive the compression, actually deliver a lesser qualtiy image? how long will it take for the march of progress to make 5gb vs whatever the normal standard is seem as out of date as formatting 1.44mb floppy discs to 1.6mb or whatever that trick is that we used to play was..

    1. Re:Lack of Public Roads by parksie · · Score: 1

      Wasn't a trick. 1.6mb was the standard for ADFS HDD discs, and was it the Amiga that could get 1.8? Atari? One of those, anyway.

      Unless you're referring to FAT12 discs, in which case you lose so much of the available space to inefficiencies.

    2. Re:Lack of Public Roads by jagripino · · Score: 1
      if they don't have roads, how high up on their priority list should "Gigli" be?

      Ooh, I can answer that: pretty low :-) It opened here on as few screens as possible and ran for two weeks only.

      data on disc is about the smallest thing you can imaginable. there is no place on earth with a digital projector to which such a disc can not be delivered along with whatever other items come in to the outside world. no exceptions.

      I tend to agree with that. Fast VPN networks to all those screens would be ridiculously expensive here, delivery a DVD with the 5GB of data would be more sensible. Maybe they do plan on delivering it through network on the bigger, more wired cities, but they probably mentioned the technology just to grab some headlines. Looks like it worked :-)

      Here is the website for the company doing this, not a lot of info there though...

  19. Re:More here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That was a troll? I thought a troll had to actually make an attempt at getting someone to click on the link?

    Surely just putting an obvious link to an image in your post with text that basically says "Hey, click this link! It's a picture that has nothing to do with the article!" is just lame. Not a troll.

  20. Don't read too much into it... by dcs · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I live in Brazil's capital (which happens to be Brasilia, not Buenos Aires :), and there's not even a THX movie theather.

    --
    (8-DCS)
    1. Re:Don't read too much into it... by gomoX · · Score: 1

      Try moving to Rio (joke)...
      Brasilia is Brazil's Capital since 1960, when it replaced Rio. Since it was built mostly from scratch to be an administrative/government city, i guess the lack of THX cinemas is not very surprising - it's not such a big city!

      --
      My english is sow-sow. Sowhat?
    2. Re:Don't read too much into it... by dcs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      At 2 million people it can hardly be called a small city.

      --
      (8-DCS)
    3. Re:Don't read too much into it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Brasilia is any commies' or frenchman's wet dream:

      A CITY OF BUREAUCRATS

      That's right folks. A lifeless city of government employees and the attendant coterie of lawyers and lobbysts.

    4. Re:Don't read too much into it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah...but you dont need THX cinemas up there :) you need to work LoL...but I do let you come once in a while to Campinas to enjoy good movies!!!

    5. Re:Don't read too much into it... by jagripino · · Score: 1

      Same thing here in Sao Paulo, IIRC. Sao Paulo is the largest city in Brazil (for those among you that don't know that) and all we got so far here are two or three digital screens.

    6. Re:Don't read too much into it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess they developed this as a better method of photographing and finger printing American tourists?

    7. Re:Don't read too much into it... by dcs · · Score: 1

      Let me expand on "largest city in Brazil". A few years ago it numbered 11 million people, among the 10 biggest cities in the world.

      --
      (8-DCS)
    8. Re:Don't read too much into it... by John+Harrison · · Score: 1
      Ahhh Campinas. Oddly the only time I have ever gone to a movie in Brasil was in Campinas. Saw the movie where Sean Penn is mentally retarded and is trying to keep custody of his daughter. It was a crap movie. The theater (a multiplex at the mall, not the giant new mall btw) was quite nice, comparable to a multiplex in the USA.

      Sadly the old regal downtown theaters that used to be the staple in Brasil are all going out of business because people don't want to get mugged coming out of a movie on a Saturday night. Then end up getting sold to the Igreja Universal, which can make use of them during the day.

    9. Re:Don't read too much into it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, you mean like Washington DC?

  21. This is cool by Molina+the+Bofh · · Score: 2, Funny
    'The MPEG-4 software can squeeze a feature film onto a file of just five gigabytes, 15 times smaller than the MPEG-2 technology presently used

    Cool. Now where can I download this movie ?
    --

    -
    Roses are #FF0000, Violets are #0000FF, find / -name '*base*' |xargs chown -R us && mv zig greatjustice
  22. Insightful? how about reading the articles? by binaryDigit · · Score: 0, Redundant

    I have a feeling that if some area is inaccessible by road, it's not likely to have DSL or fiber running to it either.

    To quote from the article:

    Rain Networks has developed a system called KinoCast, which downloads films into cinemas via satellite and then controls projection through a central computer working remotely on a virtual private network (VPN).

  23. Re:More here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I apologise for my apalling use of your great english language. And for not being able to spell apalling ;)

  24. Compare: HDTV is 20 megabits per second by blorg · · Score: 1

    Well from the article they are using satellite, and to compare, a *single* HDTV stream is 20 megabits per second, so I don't think this is too unrealistic. The films just have to be queued up for delivery at some stage before projection, and we are talking about a network with a limited number of endpoints (e.g. only cinemas, rather than everyone).

  25. Windows Media is Not MPEG-4 by mbone · · Score: 4, Informative

    Windows Media does not support standards compliant MPEG-4. What Microsoft calls MPEG-4 is their version of a early draft of the standard with their own transport mechanism.

    Envivio used to offer a MPEG-4 plug in for WM, but no more (or at least not for free).

    I wish people would not perpetuate this confusion.

  26. Honest question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's it to you?

  27. Goodbye Movie Theater by j1mmy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They may as well start releasing all movies direct to DVD now. You can easily put together a nice home theater for under two grand these days and the cost is continuing to drop. If all future films go digital, theaters won't have any reason to exist anymore.

    1. Re:Goodbye Movie Theater by 16K+Ram+Pack · · Score: 1
      Apart from the fact that 2 grand will buy me 150+ trips to the cinema, there's a bunch of other reasons to go to the cinema.


      It's a night out. Whether for kids or families, it's far more spectacular than a DVD. And how many girls would think a guy creepy if the first date was "come round and watch the DVD".


      I like it because I get out of the house, get very high quality images that I can immerse myself in in a dark room, away from the home environment. No-one phones me. It's also a shared experience. It's also great for me and a large group to see a film, which we can't do at home.


      On top of that, it's also cheaper for me. A new DVD costs about 18UKP to buy here, but I can go to the cinema for about 12UKP. (For me, I don't live close to a large video club).

    2. Re:Goodbye Movie Theater by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A large part of the enjoyment is the huge screen, ours is a small one and it's 8 meters high.

      Also the group experiance is good too

  28. Digital can match 35mm - look at Star Wars by blorg · · Score: 2, Interesting
    DVD and DiVX look Awful on a big screen as you can see the artifacts on the system. This asks the question how it can be suitable for the large cinema screens.

    That's why they aren't talking about DVD/DiVX but rather much higher resolutions. The new Star Wars films were shot entirely on digital and then converted to 35mm for projection, and I didn't hear people complaining about the low resolution.

    Indeed, digital projection is likely to be better in most cases due to the fact that the film will not be scratched, etc. (here in Ireland, depending on the cinema you can see some truly awful 35mm presentations, particularly after a film has been out a while.)

    1. Re:Digital can match 35mm - look at Star Wars by Nakito · · Score: 0

      That's why they aren't talking about DVD/DiVX but rather much higher resolutions.

      Actually, I think they ARE talking about DiVX (in essence). In particular, they are talking about using the MPEG-4 codec (and DiVX is essentially the same codec). MPEG-4 is a fine codec for the limited resolutions of a desktop monitor, but it is a lossy codec. If you grab a frame from an MPEG-4 compressed movie and compare it to the original, the loss in resolution is very apparent. The problem with artifacts cited in the parent to this thread could be significant.

    2. Re:Digital can match 35mm - look at Star Wars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i saw episode II on a digital projection system, and i could totally tell that it was digital. the aliasing on the CG effects was pretty bad in some scenes. then again, i was high as a kite, and went looking to find flaws in the projection...

  29. It's all about costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Brazil is a nation where technology costs much: US$ 1,00 can buy R$ 2,90 (Real - local currency) and there are heavy taxes on imported material. When running low on budget you have to be creative to solve problems and reduce costs. That's why the elections here are all digital for more than 5 years ago (it costs less and it's more secure than the classic way) and why banks here have more clients using internet to access the bank systems than anywhere in the world. Can this system be the best? Maybe not... but surely it can help to make easier to distribute the movies faster while lowering costs. And it can also help the local cinema industry to increase the audiences and revenue.

    1. Re:It's all about costs by TexasDex · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Sure, digital elections are more secure than conventional ones. Well I'm sure that they can be, just as long as you don't use guess whose voting system.

      --
      The Cheese Stands Alone.
  30. Who will pay in US? by mirio · · Score: 5, Insightful

    who will pay for cinemas to switch to digital projection

    Hmm...ultimately the customers will.

    1. Re:Who will pay in US? by acozer · · Score: 1

      As said by a theather owner a few comments above, by using digital projection the costs for the theather owner will be reduced. So, profits will increase.

      From this point of view, changing from conventional to digital projection is more like an investment. Theather owner will pay to switch to digital projection and by keeping tickets at the same price (or maybe reducing the price a little) the investment will be paid within a few weeks and after that profits will be better.

      For me it seems that theather owners in US are more lake bakery owners in Brazil. They are allways waiting for someone else to invest in their business.

    2. Re:Who will pay in US? by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      Hmm...ultimately the customers will.

      In a way, yes.

      The problem is that the digital distribution shifts the cost of distribution away from the studios and to the theater owners. Per copy distribution is much lower but it requires recieving and storage hardware and of course, getting $100K+ digital projectors in an attempt to replace still functioning and paid-for film projectors.

      I'm betting that the studios are trying to pocket the entire difference rather than allowing the theater owners a break for having to invest in expensive hardware.

  31. piracy by ajs318 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have one thing only to say to the people who complain about "piracy" {the industry's preferred dysphemism for "independent distribution"}.

    Look at the ready availability of photocopiers, scanners, printers and the like. And look what's on offer at your local W.H.Smith, or Waterstones, or any independent local newsagent, or remainder store.

    Now ask yourself "why don't newspapers, magazines and books have a piracy problem, with all these copiers and so forth out there?"

    Whatever the Printed Word industry has done to protect itself from "piracy", the music and movie industries have to do the same thing to protect themselves from the same threat.

    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    1. Re:piracy by binaryDigit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Now ask yourself "why don't newspapers, magazines and books have a piracy problem, with all these copiers and so forth out there?"

      Several reasons:

      - Just how long would it take you to photocopy Harry Potter and how good of a copy could you make without destroying the book in the process.

      - If you were to take the time to scan it, who would want to bother to print it out since the cost of the paper/toner would probably end up being more than the original book.

      - Paper products have a long history and people are accustomed to their "interface" (i.e. I can take it on the bus or in the bathroom or in bed, I can fold it up, throw it in my bag, and I'm only out $5.95 (.50cents for a paper) if I lose it).

      - With video and audio, EXACT reproductions can be made with a single mouse click.

      - The nature in which their distributed lends themselves to easy reproduction (DRM efforts not withstanding).

      Whatever the Printed Word industry has done to protect itself from "piracy", the music and movie industries have to do the same thing to protect themselves from the same threat.

      You can't compare the two. Different mediums that came at different times. Just like 30 years ago, film piracy was no big deal. Before cassette tapes, audio piracy wasn't a big deal. Had ebooks taken off, then the "printed" people would be stressing out about piracy as well. Just so happens the preferred distribution media is just some damn inconvenient to reproduce.

    2. Re:piracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      Now ask yourself "why don't newspapers, magazines and books have a piracy problem, with all these copiers and so forth out there?"

      Because it's hard work to copy them. If I want to copy the book of The Lord of the Rings, I have to manually turn the page five hundred times and then put the book back on the copier and press the button again. I end up with a colossal sheaf of A4 that nobody in their right mind would want to read, and that nobody will ever bother using to make further copies. The book itself only costs about a tenner, and the labour involved in pirating it like this is just too much.

      Whereas if I want to copy the film of The Lord of the Rings I have to manually replace the DVD in the drive six times and then press the button on dvd::rip. I end up with high-quality divX I can burn to CDs and share with my friends, and they can make further copies freely.

    3. Re:piracy by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

      By the time you'd scan and post the NY Times, the next days version would be out.

    4. Re:piracy by Von+Helmet · · Score: 1

      Well, if you want to be really particular about it then even lending stuff is "piracy" and is certainly copyright infringement. Certainly in England all the copyright notices on DVDs say it's illegal to lend them.

      Similarly, this would make lending books illegal, except for authorised establishments i.e. libraries.

      Now, I know that this isn't the same as burning CDs. People buy (download, burn, whatever) CDs and listen to them a lot - like once a month, once a week, once a day. People don't tend to read the same book in it's entirety that often.

      However, it is closer to the DVD/video piracy thing, as people watch films less often than they listen to CDs. If you see a film one day you're very unlikely to watch it the following day, same as how if you finish reading a book one day you're very unlikely to start reading it again the next day.

      So... getting to the point... it's difficult to compare film piracy to book "piracy" because the copyright of books gets infringed any time you lend a book to someone. This has the same sort of impact in terms of loss of earnings for the author, as most times someone who borrows a book won't buy it themselves as well.

      The interesting thing is that absolutely no one cares about people borrowing books and infringing copyright that way. It is a universally accepted practise and no one does a thing about it.

    5. Re:piracy by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      They don't have a problem because piracy isn't a problem. They know that people will buy the hardcopy when they can, if they like the book. Even a good ebook reader is not as satisfying as a physical copy of a book. It's trivial to grab books off USENET or assorted P2P services, there's tons of books of all genres. And of course, audiobooks as well.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:piracy by ajs318 · · Score: 1
      If you were to take the time to scan [Harry Potter], who would want to bother to print it out since the cost of the paper/toner would probably end up being more than the original book.
      Exactly: copying books is thoroughly uneconomical.

      Recordable optical discs cost more to make than read-only ones. There is still a stamping to be done with a CD-R, and the special dye is expensive compared to plain aluminium. Plus there is the cost of electricity, CPU cycles &c. to run the computer on which the copying is done, and time. The blank media probably is the least expensive part of CD / DVD copying.

      Put it this way: if a prerecorded disc cost no more than three times a blank one, it would be uneconomical for anyone to copy them at all.
      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    7. Re:piracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah, well, except computer books and rpg books, which can be found by anyone with ease... also, it is cheaper to copy here... YMMV

  32. 60 fields by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, both are "kind of" right.

    It changes a "field" (only the odd or even lines) every 1/60th of a second. So the image changes at this frequency, but not completely.

  33. More Approximations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why is it that everyone always insists upon using approximations? Even with the highest quality mpeg encoder, the approximations that mpeg 4 employs will be visible on the big screen at that bit rate. Of course you could use a small enough resolution that the bitrate wouldn't produce artifacts, but that would not come near the effective resolution of the analog media that this is replacing.

    Approximation has it's place, but at this bit rate quality anywhere near 35mm prints is nye impossible. Approximation techniques such as mpeg also allow for irresponsible use. Using these techniques content producers must spend large amounts of time on quality assurance, making sure that each portion of the content receive at least the bitrate required. For a glaring example of improper usage of approximation, find the original DVD release of "The Wizard of OZ". The one in the plastic keep case, not the remastered one in the cardboard snap case. That release was just awful. There was gibbs effect (those little squares) everywhere during the sepia tones portion (as opposed to the technicolor portion) of the film.

    In this case, there is absolutely no reason to use this much approximation. In fact, in this case it would negligable in cost to cut out all approximation. This does not mean the movie can not be compressed or encrypted, just that it shouldn't be approximated. If the approximation step were removed, the quality assurance work that goes with it would also be removed and possibly save more money than the additional one time costs of extra storage for the theaters. It would take longer to feed the data to the theaters, but I don't beleive theaters are changing films so often that they would come anywhere near saturating their distribution VPN even 50% of the time.

    1. Re:More Approximations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen brotha!

      The whole point of high-resolution film is so we can have great detail in an image so when we blow it up full-screen it doesn't look bad. High resolution lets us sample the image better to allow more high-frequency content per frame.

      The whole point of MPEG/WMV is to *throw away* high frequency information. That's where the compression really comes from. And also color, since the YUV is subsampled under this vague assumption that since humans have fewer cones they somehow "won't notice". Whatever.

      I couldn't help but notice star wars 2 had alot of low-frequency scenes, probably to facilitate whatever compression it was using. A very plain-looking movie.

  34. A correction to CS Monitor's story... by dcs · · Score: 1

    City of God is a 2002 movie, not a 2003 movie.

    --
    (8-DCS)
  35. DPI? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's the DPI on this thing? If it's any lower than my TV, I might just as well stay at home.

  36. Inaccessible by road? by PhotoGuy · · Score: 1
    "It takes 20 minutes to distribute a 90-minute film over a VPN and the system avoids the costs associated with transporting physical copies to areas largely inaccessible by road"

    Hey, wait a minute... There are pure digital megaplexes with internet connectivity that allows 5G in 20M (what's that 700kbps?), but you can't get there by road??? Seems odd, no? Can someone expand on that point? (Or maybe I should break tradition, and RTFA... Nahhhhh, I want to fit in here.)

    --
    Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    1. Re:Inaccessible by road? by robnauta · · Score: 1

      Dude.. Over an hour ago someone already quoted from the article which you obviously didn't read: The films are then beamed by satellite from Rain's central computer in Sao Paulo to picture houses across the country. Depending on bandwidth, it can take as little as 20 minutes to send a 90-minute film to a theater. Your sarcasm has made a fool of yourself...

  37. Actually, they do. by SharpFang · · Score: 1

    But not with photocopiers. This trend is getting more common, a decent quality small digital camera or a cellular phone with built-in one, youth just pick the magazines, flip pages making photos, then leave the paper version and read the new issue of their favourite $20 magazine for free, from screens of their computers.
    If they like it, they sometimes buy the dead tree version.

    --
    45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    1. Re:Actually, they do. by Looks_Like_A_Penguin · · Score: 1

      This seems to be exactly what the movie/music industry cannot grasp right now. The fact of the matter is that piracy in general operates on a cost:benefit ratio. For example, if a DVD is selling for US$20, then it is worth my time to try to find alternative methods of delivery to my entertainment system. OTOH, sell the same DVD for US$10, and it is not as profitable (time-wise) for me to find an alternative source.
      LLP

    2. Re:Actually, they do. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The phrase you are looking for is "free market capitalism".

  38. Me thinks you are missing the point by binaryDigit · · Score: 1

    Approximation has it's place, but at this bit rate quality anywhere near 35mm prints is nye impossible

    We're not talking about the US where digital is pushed as a "superior format" to that of film. When we go do digital movie houses, we expect quality that exceeds that of "regular" 35mm. That the theatre owner saved some bucks by having the film downloaded is irrelevant to us, and it doesn't mean that my 12plex is going to get movies that it wouldn't normally otherwise. NOW Brasil on the other hand, is a different story. The problem they are trying to solve is one of logistics. They are talking about the difference between many theatres either not getting a film at all, or having to wait a significant amount of time, or having to pay very large sums to get them delivered. A previous poster that lives in Brasil mentioned that the city he lives in doesn't even have THX theatres, so they are not going for the ultimate in quality here.

    They decided on their primary requirements (ease of distribution) and chose a technology that met that particular requirement. In the states the primary requirement probably isn't going to be the same, so the technology chosen will accordingly differ.

    One last point. Your example of the WOO dvd release is important here, because it shows that one of the advantages of digital is that you can adjust compression ratios accordingly. If they decide at some point that the current compression ratios are too aggressive, they can always loosen them up to get better quality.

    1. Re:Me thinks you are missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      A previous poster that lives in Brasil mentioned that the city he lives in doesn't even have THX theatres


      Let me just say that the idea behind THX, that a theater could be certified to be at least N quality concerning the showing of movies, is a very good one. I have been to many theaters that really sucked while still having the latest technology. The way that THX is implemented, however, is terrible. It has become a name plate that a theater owner pays a great sum for. While the certification does require a certain degree of quality, I have been to uncertified theaters which are higher in quality than many THX theaters but choose not to pay the exorbitant fees to get certified. (I admit, the THX trailers are cool)

      As far as having no THX theaters, most of the places I go in the US have no THX theaters. In fact the city I live in at one point had 13 different movie theaters. It now has only 2 mega-plexs, both of which are of questionable quality and charge premium prices, and one 4 screen theater which charges premium prices yet is dollar theater quality. Needless to say, I don't go to the movies in my town any longer. I have come to realize, that the general public cares nothing about quality. They only care that the theater they're going to has 15 different movies showing so they don't have to make up their mind ahead of time. Who cares if the tickets cost too much, or the action film in the theater next door is drowning out the sound track of whatever movie yours seeing. Oh yeah, it also has to have stadium seating, which when improperly designed (I've been in only one single properly designed stadium seating theater, it was THX certified) has awful accoustic propertys. What's the point of have AC-3 EX or DTS ES with 9 channels of sound if the accoustics of the theater prevent your ear from distinguishing between sounds in the front and the back.

      I personally enjoy going to high quality smaller plexs the most. In fact the best theater I ever saw a movie in was a Carmike Cinemas with only 6 screens (it may have been 4, I'm not sure) It was on SR 436 near Orlando International Airport in Florida. It did have 2 THX certified theaters, but all of their other theaters were high quality as well. They didn't charge exorbitant prices, and, of course, the theater is not closed. It didn't have stadium seating, or 20 screens... How could it compete with the Regal Cinemas down the street? (Every Regal Cinemas I've been too has been of questionable quality with high prices)

      OB Disclaimer: These are opinions, lots of people like regal cinemas. Lots of people also like Windows...
  39. Man, you are completely out of your mind. by hummassa · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Seriously, who's going to be able to afford the $50,000 equipment ...
    Do you have any idea how much costs a current, analog projection gear?
    ... and DSL connections ...
    if you had RTFA you would know the connection is satellite-based.
    ... when they don't have accessible roads. ...
    what the fsck? the digital gear is way lighter, and it can be transported by air, water... now, if you were talking about DSL/fiber...
    ... Obviously, this won't be an affluent area. ...
    ? this has absolutely no logic. BR is a country bigger than continental US. don't you think we have big cities in less-acessible places (p.ex. Manaus)and to which digitally sending the movie is way cheaper?
    ... How do the theater owners actually plan on making money off this? ...
    Hmmm... it's better than an analog refit to an old theater? it's cheaper in the long run, and we can keep fees low (in a middle-sized town, a movie fee is, like U$1-U$2 down here).
    And, something you prolly don't know, cinema is in in BR lately, and many mid-sized and small towns are getting new/refitted movie theaters...
    ... And as for the $1500 cost of physical film, that's a moot point. Places like that will likely get it 3-6 months and 3rd or 4th-hand after the film has been circulated throughout other countries. ...
    Only now they can get the film as fast as the other places, because there is not only one copy that has to be transported!!

    --
    It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
    1. Re:Man, you are completely out of your mind. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $1-$2? I live in the city and it's more like $6-$8! I'd say let Hollywood pay for it otherwise I'll be charged $12 just to get int a movie. Really, they wonder why more people just wait for it or grab a bootleg copy? They charge $3.50 for a 20-oz soda. If it'll be cheaper I'm all for it.

    2. Re:Man, you are completely out of your mind. by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1
      Yes, but will the theater owners see any of that savings...or increased traffic? that's the question. $30k over 20 years is a whole lot different than $150k+ over X [read 5-10] years...[and we all know digital ANYTHING always needs upgrades!!] They're smart businessmen to see this and want assurances they'll be staying off the money wheel. Also, will the studios cut the theater's part of the distro cost? Espically now that the theaters are paying for their own bandwidth? The studios make a killing from simply all the shipping and handleing charges they tack on and make the theaters pay...if a movie looses money...it's the theaters that end up paying for it?

      What the theaters are after is for studios to step up and essentially put them out for good. The terms of showing most movies are horribly draconian to begin with...all geared toward making the studio money. Having worked at a theater, they don't make money off showing movies...just enough to keep the lights on. The only way they make profit is from refreshments...now the stidios want them to put out more investment for equal or less return, and even more control by the studios. They might as well go to the cellphone model and let the studios own the whole thing!! They got nothing left to give!!

    3. Re:Man, you are completely out of your mind. by CharlesClarkson · · Score: 1

      I live in a rural town in Texas. $2 for matinee and $4 for evening shows.

      --

      Charles K. Clarkson
      Many people truly want to help. Unfortunately, many people truly suck at it.
  40. Digital Projection = End of Regional Encoding? by Timbotronic · · Score: 2, Interesting
    One of the problems with physical prints is that the studios often save money by sending second hand prints to foreign markets after the opening weekends in the US. It's simple economics really, if each print costs the distributor $1200 to make, and the number of cinemas each movie plays at drops fairly quickly after it's initial release, they can save by shipping the excess prints a few weeks or even months later to foreign markets. This is particularly common with small budget and independent films.

    The flow on effect is that DVD releases of the movies also end up staggered between markets - which I've always figured was one of the main reasons for studios wanting regional encoding on DVDs.

    My big hope for digital projection is that it will eliminate the need for staggered release schedules and regional encoding - as movies will be able to be released world wide if needed for negligable additional cost. Obviously the studios will save a packet along the way too. So they should pay for it.

    --

    One of these days I'm moving to Theory - everything works there

    1. Re:Digital Projection = End of Regional Encoding? by UrGeek · · Score: 1

      A completely free distribution will not stop staggered release schedules and regional encoding. These things are drived by a passion for control, to co-ordinate (and fund) the marketing campaigns and the differences in currency rates and market rates.

    2. Re:Digital Projection = End of Regional Encoding? by Doc+Scratchnsniff · · Score: 2, Interesting

      After watching RoTK in Romania, where it came out several weeks after the American release, I think there is one other issue which native English speakers forget about. Even with the release delayed 3 weeks, they appear to have had insufficient time to create reasonable subtitles- names changed spellings midway through, Mount Doom became Mount Fire, and these are just the things I saw as a non-Romanian speaker.
      Good translations don't happen overnight- are we willing to accept movies made on a shorter timetable, just so all the translations can be finished? Imagine if RoTK had to be wrapped up one month sooner- I'm guessing that would mean about 5-8% less time spent on it (for all things other than subtitles). Is that worth it, just to eliminate staggered schedules?

  41. Artifacts and resolution - depends on bit rate by blorg · · Score: 5, Informative
    There are two seperate issues here, artifacts and resolution.

    MPEG-2 is a lossy codec also, and I can't see any artifacts (e.g. blockiness, etc. - as opposed to limited resolution) with a well-mastered, high bitrate DVD (and that's on a 150" projected screen). It's only on the badly mastered/low bitrate DVDs that artifacts become apparent. I can generally see more in the way of artifacts in most 35mm films (poor Nth generation copies, burn-outs, scratches, etc.)

    The resolution (and maximum bitrate) of DVD is pre-defined (and I was taking his reference to DiVX to mean 'at normal resolutions'). In cinema-type systems they are talking about a higher resolution picture: although Raincast don't give out resolution details, here's an example of a 3840x2480 system described as superior to 35mm.

    Raincast's system appears to be high-resolution MPEG-4/WMA running at slightly higher than normal DVD (MPEG-2) bitrates (but with a more efficient codec). While it may not be good 35mm quality, it is likely more than usable, especially for hard to reach locales that otherwise might not have a cinema at all.

  42. 64-Bit Projector needed too? by CdBee · · Score: 1

    The transmission cost/time for a 5-Gb file isn't the only problem they face

    It just occurs to me that a lot of 32-bit Operating Systems won't like a file with a size of greater than 2Gb

    Probably there's a hack that lets it be done... Is the film shipped as 3 video files which play consecutively? I would love the irony if the only mainstream machine that can play these Windows Media files was a Mac G5

    --
    I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
    1. Re:64-Bit Projector needed too? by akb · · Score: 1

      Let's just hope this company has someone on board that knows, unlike you, that a 32 bit OS does not mean a 32 bit filesystem address space.

  43. Some info on how the different formats compare by CompWerks · · Score: 3, Informative
    --
    If you can read this sig - the bitch fell off.
    1. Re:Some info on how the different formats compare by UrGeek · · Score: 1

      This Tom's Hardware is a quick overview of the compression scheme and has nothing about how this is implement by these people. A two hour MPEG-2 movie fits just fine on a DVD with 780x480 resolution but obvious something is quite different when it takes a 75 gigabyte file like CDS does. Goodgawd, what res are they using????

  44. Re:That's great but by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 1

    don't be stupid. india also have the same problems with poverty we have here and they have a thriving technology industry.

    this move to digital theater is done with private money, while poverty is a state issue. and trust me, our current socialist govt is taking steps to reduce this problem.

    plus, technological advances like these means it'll be easier to open movie theaters in far away places like Acre, Para, Amazonas (the state, not the forest. Acre and Para are also part of the forest), Mato Grosso and the "caatinga" (semi-desert region that takes large areas of several states in the north-east) which means more jobs and entertainment options there.

    so shut up. you don't know our coutry enough to make such coments. this digital movies initiative IS good for us. period.

    --
    What ? Me, worry ?
  45. Re:That's great but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Why would the private sector invest in solving poverty? That's not profitable. This is not a government initiative.

    If the movie industry is going digital is because there is money to be made somewhere along the lines, not because they are trying to do a good deed.

    By the way, it works the same here in America, bud.

  46. Roads by truthsearch · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What's a theater doing in an area inaccessible by road? If the populace can't afford to maintain roads why are they splurging on movies? I would assume the lack of roads is due to poverty. Roads are usually built leading to areas of even meager prosperity.

    1. Re:Roads by lvaruzza · · Score: 1

      The of roads in some areas are caused by a giant florest.

    2. Re:Roads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The of roads in some areas are caused by a giant florest.
      You people better arrest this giant florist before he does any more damage to your roads!
  47. How about a sample? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >The MPEG-4 software can squeeze a feature film onto a file of just five gigabytes, 15 times smaller than >the MPEG-2 technology presently used'

    Cool when can I expect to find it in use on gnutella?

  48. Wonder about the film effect by nakedsource · · Score: 1

    A while back Roger Ebert pointed out the difference between watching tv at 60 fields per second and movies at 24 frames a second (actually 48fps since each frame is shown twice). The short period of black between frames in a movie theater has an effect on the brain and makes the experience more enjoyable and relaxing. I wonder if digital projection will take that away. even at 24p, there is not short 'black space' between frames.

    1. Re:Wonder about the film effect by im+a+fucking+coward · · Score: 1

      I just saw Master and Commander @ the second hand theater on digital projection. It was awesome. No loss of resolution, and no annoying out of frame/focus period while projector is adjusted by a fast food flunky.

      If you get a chance, try it. I doubt you'll ever go to another celluloid film if you can find digital. Note that the cost of tickets did go up in my area, but it's been well worth it.

    2. Re:Wonder about the film effect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would there be no black frame between content frames?
      If it's desirable, they can put it there. It's DIGITAL.

  49. 25 fps is PAL, of course by Heisenbug · · Score: 1

    Here, of course, you're talking about PAL, the mostly European format. All those posts saying "hey, it's 30 fps, not 60!" are referring to NTSC, the mostly American format.

    Interestingly, the only place PAL equipment is common over here is with independent filmmakers -- because it's much much easier to turn 25 frames into 24 than 60 interlaced frames into 24. This creates a demand for cameras that shoot footage that's useless on most of the TVs we have ...

  50. I cant wait to se a BSOD on the big screen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    please wait....

    rebooting in progress....

  51. Not to mention... by dark-br · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...that Brazil also leads with 100% electronic voting.

    Sometimes less money leads to more simple and viable solutions. US should take a look on what is going on below equator and maybe save lot's of money using solutions already tested. Just't becouse it was done here it doesn't mean it's not worth a look.

    1. Re:Not to mention... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, already tested and fraudulent.

  52. Re:That's great but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Socialistic goverment taking steps to reduce powerty ?

    Hahahahahaha ...

    It seems whenever socialists take over, powerty really takes off - give it couple more years and you will "catch" up with Cuba.

  53. File Sys, not OS - NTFS manages large files fine by blorg · · Score: 1
    It just occurs to me that a lot of 32-bit Operating Systems won't like a file with a size of greater than 2Gb [...] Is the film shipped as 3 video files which play consecutively? I would love the irony if the only mainstream machine that can play these Windows Media files was a Mac G5

    As a point of reality, NTFS on Win2k/XP (32-bit OSes) has a maximum file size of just under 16terabytes on volumes of just under 256 terabytes (and even these are implementation limits, rather than theoretical maximums.) I deal with single-file backups, ISO images, and databases of well over 2gb with no problems whatsoever on NTFS.

    Second, there is in any case no reason why the bitstream could not be split up into multiple files - DVDs do this, splitting the bitstream into VOB files of max. 1gb each.

  54. BSOD by Ih8sG8s · · Score: 1

    Coming soon to a theater near you!

  55. Sounds like MTBF out the window by mattr · · Score: 0

    Seriously these guys should get together with the guy who asked about how to demo his terabit bandwidth! If you suppose the Brazilians are sending 5 gig cinema files one theater at a time, he could deliver them all simultaneously, live to the audience, and not worry about replacing bad hard disks in the rain forest every week. You know it's gonna happen...

  56. It was a _Fight Club_ reference, actually by OgdEnigmaX · · Score: 1

    Whether or not the jargon is correct is another question, but you are in fact talking about the same thing:

    Jack: "Let me tell you a little bit about Tyler Durden. Tyler was a night person. While the rest of us were sleeping, he worked. He had one part time job as a projectionist. You see, a movie doesn't come all on one big reel. It comes on a few. So someone has to be there to switch the projectors at the exact moment that one reel ends and the next one begins. If you look for it you can see these little dots come into the upper right hand corner of the screen."

    Tyler: "In the industry we call them cigarette burns."

    Jack: "That's the cue for a change-over. He flips the projectors, the movie keeps right on going and nobody in the audience has any idea."

    Tyler: "Why would anyone want this shit job?!"

    Jack: "Because it affords him other interesting opportunities."

    Tyler: "Like splicing single frames of pornography into family films!"

    Jack: "So when the snooty cat and the courageous dog with the celebrity voices meet for the first time in reel 3, that's when you'll catch a flash of Tyler's contribution to the film. Nobody knows that they saw it but they did."

    Tyler: "A nice, big cock!"

    1. Re:It was a _Fight Club_ reference, actually by W2IRT · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Damn. I must have run Fight Club in the multiplexes a zillion times but I was never monitoring the sound when that exchange came up. Mind you, in 19 years doing it for a living I've never heard anybody call cue marks "cigarette burns."

      As to splicing single frames of pr0n into features, it's a nice urban legend but in reality anybody even casually watching will notice the frame. Go back to the changeover cues we were just talking about -- each of the two cues is printed on 4 frames, or about 1/6th of a second. They HANG there on the screen. One frame of something totally different would be CLEARLY visible to even the most clueless observer.

      Not to mention, the jump that would occur on the screen and the pop in the sound about a second and a third afterwards.

      As for it being a shit job, you tell me...I've run probably 5,000 films or more, watched likely well over half of them and was paid a reasonable salary for the priviledge. At the height of my career in that industry I worked 5 days of 10-hour shifts one week and two days of 10-hour shifts the following week. I got to work with toys I loved, learned an incredible amount about electronics and sound and got to sleep in till the crack of noon most days.

      I'd sell my left nut to do that today.

      --
      Cheers, Peter, W2IRT
    2. Re:It was a _Fight Club_ reference, actually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just curious, did you notice all the subliminal Tyler shots near the start of the film? There were at least a few.

  57. Who will pay for it? by Alan · · Score: 1

    I'm going to guess that this will mean yet another increase in the cost of tickets (up to $13 CND in some theatres here) and food (overpriced to begin with) for theatre patrons. Is the lower cost to theatres going to be reflected by lowering prices for movie goers instead of screwing them over more for the "big screen experience"? I doubt it.

  58. Brazil - Where big things will happen.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'll make a bold prediction(hmm..as anonymous :/ ), Brazil is about the only place on Gods grey Earth that has the possibility of Greatness!! I am serious!(and a bad speller). Where else do You find a President who used to polish shoes for a living? Where else do You find ppl who doesnt identify themself as 'aryans', 'vikings', 'white', 'native', 'black', 'the-chosen-ones' etc ?? They all seem to be Brazilians...poor or rich! Maybe I am naive, I dont know...but the harts of these people!! I am telling you... AND they dont take crap from anyone!! This includes IMF as well as US!! Americans who lost beleif in "The American Dream", look at Brazil!! Unless I am mistaken(or some superpower will put an halt to it), this is where the future is, on all levels. e.g R&D (which is a LOT cheaper(and a LOT more passionate) than in, say US or Europe) is exploding down there. When I have finished my current project (some profiling and UI-fiddle), I might go there! The Language is the biggest hurdle for me at the moment...(I want to be able to get the WHOLE culture), but crossing my fingers and working hard, it will happen!

  59. panix attax by rs79 · · Score: 1

    > I ran just about every one of them in Toronto in the 80s and 90s

    That was you Peter? I thank you, and my weird friends thank you. My brother thanks you, and my brothers weird friends thank you.

    The wife and kids say hi; say hello to the gang there for me. Pick up some garbonzo beans on the way home.

    --
    Need Mercedes parts ?
    1. Re:panix attax by W2IRT · · Score: 1
      That was you Peter? I thank you, and my weird friends thank you. My brother thanks you, and my brothers weird friends thank you.


      Heh. Well, me and about 250 other members of IATSE Local 173. I was in it from November 1983 till August 1999, and on permit for two years before that.

      --
      Cheers, Peter, W2IRT
  60. Profits, Profits, and more Profits by Amigori · · Score: 2
    HOLLYWOOD, CA--In other news today, several of the Hollywood studios have released financial figures dealing with the new, all digital projection systems. After the initial cost of the projection hardware and the VPN servers is paid for, say 12 months with todays ticket prices, and the fact that they no longer have to buy film from Eastman Kodak to make distribution copies, their overhead costs drop significantly. What does this mean to us, the consumer?
    More price gouging!
    Because of the "higher quality" of the "films," ticket prices will rise approximately 25% every six months. Why you might ask? "Because we can and I need to help drive up real estate prices here on the West coast by purchasing my 4th summer house," said one executive. "Its all about profits, not quality or affordability," said another. A third had this to say, "I personally believe the high prices are worth every penny. The consumer sees better quality movies. This should increase demand by 10% a year." What he failed to mention is that all of his studios' movies this year were prequels, sequels, remakes, or new adaptations; not one new original movie.

    Sarcasm aside, once the new digital systems are in place, even with maintenance costs, total overhead costs should drop. I'm sure that the studios will make sure that they don't pass on that benefit to consumers. Instead they will pad their own pockets and those stars on the $20m+/movie list. They could spend the savings on hiring some new writers who have some original ideas. Just a thought...
    Amigori

    --
    "The quality of life is determined by its activites."--Aristotle
  61. You forgot... by Kjella · · Score: 1

    MPEG-4 is more efficient at low bitrates than MPEG-2/1. I am not sure that MPEG-4 encoding is even capable of reaching 7.5 Mbps - the maximum I have seen for DivX movies is around 2 Mbps with the minimum quantiser used for all frames.

    ...that the resolution is much higher. 640x??? -> 1920x??? and you have 3x3 = 9 times the pixels. For the same picture quality, think 2*9 = 18Mbps bitrate...

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  62. $750,000??? by M.+Baranczak · · Score: 2

    it can cost up to $750,000 for 500 copies of a Matrix-type blockbuster to be distributed

    That's $1500 per copy! How the hell are they delivering these things? Every reel on a giant gold platter, with a 50-piece samba band walking behind it? (Come to think of it, that does sound pretty cool.)

    Then again, this is the movie business we're talking about. Their accounting's bound to be a little 'funny'.

    1. Re:$750,000??? by danielobvt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The actual film itself isn't what you would call cheap (makes up more of the cost than you would think, and it only lasts for so long(scratches, dust, etc)). Actually getting it there and the infrastructure to support that (accountants to ensure you get paid for providing the print, etc) also factor into the price.

  63. The future by aonaran · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I wonder how this will affect future generations.
    There have been several instances over the years where the studios lost the original film masters and had to resort to using 35mm prints that were sent out to the theaters to restore parts of the film for home video release. (The Wickerman comes to mind as an example) If digital distibution becomes so prevalent that everything is distributed on recycled HDDs or via network I do hope the studios deem it important to keep off-site backups.

    1. Re:The future by rkhalloran · · Score: 1

      Realistically I think there'll need to be *some* film-based copies for the historical record; for that matter, given the half-life of most drive technologies, an archive-quality film-based copy may be the safest bet for long-term storage.

  64. That will be crap by ratboy666 · · Score: 2

    Take it from someone "in the business"... (my creds are: (1) performance analysis for experimental digital project, uncompressed video
    (2) design wireless networking for 10/54Mbs home video transmission (3) HD mode development for ATI Xilleon, and other projects).

    The effective data rate for this "theater" is the same as digital SD television -- not even HD.

    If the compression is THAT much better, I would have heard about it... and I haven't.

    They won't be able to blow this up to a big theater screen (unless its filtered to hell). It's not gonna look good. Of course, we *could* be talking about a bad quality small theater screen...

    So this is a big yawn. Worse -- they DO have the intrastructure needed to move 30Mps. The just want to, what, cut costs? Give 'em at LEAST HD resolutions (36Mbps).

    And, if the compression is THAT GOOD (6 to 10 times better than current) -- there are other applications we would have seen it in first -- high end cam-corders, and (at least) a proposal for a DVD replacement format COMPLETELY COMPATIBLE with existing DVD technology (HD DVDs would be possible, with a blue laser!).

    So this is bunch of hooey.

    Thanks for you time; I needed to vent.

    Ratboy.

    --
    Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
    1. Re:That will be crap by bodland · · Score: 1

      Saw a warren miller ski movie at a theatre in Madison a few years ago that used a DVD and projector. They filled a huge screen (Larger than multiplexes). It looked great

  65. Too bad digital projection looks horrid... by BlueTT · · Score: 1

    Too bad digital projection is nowhere near replacing film quality-wise. All digital projectors available today crush blacks horribly, resulting in the complete loss of shadow detail and other tangible features.

    Let's hope digital projection doesn't follow the same path as fixed pixel TVs have, taking the market as something "cool," ignoring the fact that it of course is of lesser quality than what it is replacing (LCD, DLP and plasma have yet to attain the picture quality of the best CRTs...)

    1. Re:Too bad digital projection looks horrid... by bodland · · Score: 1

      You obviously haven't watched many movies on a DLP projector yet.... first: crap in crap out. The print used to do the digital mastering is very important. C second control the environment: In controlled lighting (like most theatres) DLP projectors produce stunning images with rich blacks and excellent color. The screen used in projection make a huge impact on the contrast and picture sharpness. Second! Digitally shot movies and animated movies like Finding Nemo, Monster's Inc and Final Fantasy are nothing short of breath taking when viewed on a DLP with a Farjouda Deinterlacing chipset. How well the digital information is scaled to match the output format is critical. After you have LOTR Two Towers on a 8' wide screen sitting 8' feet back in your own couch, with popcorn and a beer and a group of friends you will be won over. CRT's for movies is dead. Large screen projection DLP is the way.

  66. Good city, too. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    And, it should be said, the metropolitan area is 29,000,000 people, maybe the biggest in the world. If you ask me, it's a nice city, too.

    1. Re:Good city, too. by iksrazal_br · · Score: 1

      Nice city for sure. Traffic is rough sometimes though. Lots of clubs and restaurants. I'm suprised so many people on slashdot know SP - I almost never see gringos living here. If any paulistas are interested they can reach me at iksrazal@yahoo.com for beers and such.

    2. Re:Good city, too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      29 million? Really? Last census, I believe, counted 16 million, some years ago... and, on top of that, Ciudad del Mexico probably still surpasses us, IMO.

      Not to mention the fact that we have had an industrial exodus, Sao Paulo is becoming a mostly a business/ services city. And the internal immigration has stopped since some time.

      It's a nice city, agreed -- and we just turned 450 years old in last January,25 -- but we could use a little more human cordiality, if you ask me, like they show in Vila Madalena.

      Bye, right from the center of Sao Paulo.

  67. $1-$2 in rural Brazil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's $1-$2 in rural Brazil.

  68. Brasil - movie prices (US$) by hummassa · · Score: 2, Informative

    small town (lt 100k ppl) = $1.25 (R$ 4)
    mid-sized (lt 1M ppl) = $1.75 (R$ 5)
    my town (3rd largest, 4Mppl) =
    downtown theaters -- $2 = R$ 6
    mall multiplex, mon-fri -- $2.25 = R$ 8
    mall multiplex, sat-dom -- $3-5.25 = R$ 12-16

    approximate math, of course. yes, I can multiply.

    --
    It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
  69. American Geography at its best! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >> Brazil is about half as wide as California is tall.

    Brazil is bigger than California, bigger than the entire West of Mississipi. In fact, Brazil was bigger than the US until you got Alaska.

    Also, we have almost 80% of the US population.

    We are a peaceful people.

    1. Re:American Geography at its best! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      when I get along with a Brazilian I get along great with them. On IRC anyway. I don't know that I've ever had (much?) face to face interaction with any Brazilians. It seems, from what little I've read, like a place I'd want to visit.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  70. Refresh rate by iamacat · · Score: 1

    Your eyes are only capable of seeing 20-25 fps. This is why you do not see fluorescent links blink on and off. For this reason you will not notice when cimema projection will increase speed from 25-60 fps.

    Oh yeah? Then how come I can clearly see the monitor shimmering and parts of the screen darkening and brightening at 65Hz? 75 is the minimum tolerable, 85 is good, but you will have to pry my Apple cinema display from my cold, dead eyes. And by the way, software DVD players that don't hide interlacing suck badly.

  71. Re:That's great but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cuba is in poverty today because of the U.S. embargo, not because of their "socialistic government". Guess you were so taken in by anti-communist propaganda that you forgot about the embargo, didn't you?

    And you seem to remember Cuba as a prosperous, highly advanced country before Castro. Read up on the dirty playground for gambling and prostitution that was Cuba before. Even the Cuba of today doesn't seem so bad.

  72. SP is amazingly friendly, ... by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1


    "... we could use a little more human cordiality, ..."

    This makes me laugh. Only a Brazilian who has spent most of his time in Brazil would say this. SP is amazingly friendly, far more friendly than any other big city I've seen.

    Bangkok is nice, but not as friendly.

    The 29,000,000 is the entire populated area around SP, which is many, many kilometers wide and deep.

  73. Re:DRM? by schmiddy · · Score: 3, Informative

    As one or two others have pointed out, WMV9 encryption is actually relatively secure, at least as far as we know right now. It uses pretty strong public key encryption. Someone suggested just using another media player that doesn't respect the "protection". That's like suggesting just using another email client to open a PGP encrypted email if you don't have the private key.

    There are tools out there to strip the protection from WMV9 audio files, unf**k.exe and one other I can't remember right now. However, none have been released to my knowledge for video files. When the full-length Hilton video came out last week, it was released as a WMV9 file with DRM. The distributors wanted $50 for the privelege of viewing it five times. Needless to say, someone actually bought a license and released a pretty good quality analog rip of it within a few days. There is NO way to get around the "analog hole" provided a would-be pirate has a valid key for it.

    What I'd be more worried about with theaters using Mpeg-4 compression in general is quality... Yeah, they brag about filesize compression in comparison with mpeg-2, but I was always under the impression that mpeg-4 is best for lower bitrates and can't provide high quality at high bitrates like mpeg-2 can. Mpeg-2 is used currently in HDTV streams and on DVDs.

    I would suspect that you would get compression artifacts even in a 5 GB mpeg-4 file in a 2 hour+ movie. Actually I would suspect you'd get noticeable artifacting at any filesize with WMV/Mpeg-4. I don't think I've ever seen a WMV encode that looked even near DVD-quality.

    --
    http://cltracker.net -- powerful craigslist multi-city search
  74. Yummie.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just love garish video colors..., well ok I don't. I for one am happy to lag and see old fashioned analog projected movies. Give it a few years and I might change my mind.

  75. This WILL increase piracy if it becomes the norm. by tamagen · · Score: 1

    If this is implemented in richer countries, then piracy will go through the roof.

    Even an average computer user can find movies at little or no cost, in a range of low-quality formats. 5gb is already easily transferable for some users. Essentially, rampant piracy and a lowering of release quality means that a user with a high speed internet connection and a decent home cinema system will be able to get *exactly* the same experience at home and for free.

    The studios' only hope of survival is to focus on delivering the best possible experience; that means higher quality vision, sound and comfort in a theatre - for which a user will pay a premium. Moving away from this would be insane.

    I also suggest that they stop selling popcorn. I pay to experience a theatre's sound system too, you know.

  76. Re:The max eye resolution myth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a common myth that a human eye can only discern 25fps. The fact of the matter is that gamers have long known that the eye is capable of perceiving up to 5 times that resolution. The difference in display of a game at 25fps and 125fps is more than noticeable, it is downright blatant.

    The difference is that in film, the objects are moving in between frames. A video game is like 125 still pictures per second.

  77. A few points of clarification. by Crizzam · · Score: 1

    1) Brazil has a robust wireless digital infrastructure. 2) Brazil is geographically segmented. 3) The movie theaters will play movies indepentendly of each other, not simulcasted. 4) Linux is not the answer to every question. 5) Microsoft still sucks, but on a rock solid VPN with dedicated applications, maybe it will survive. 6) The major cost of distributing a film is the film itself. When people say it cost $1500 to distribute a film, they mean to actually print a copy of the film on 35mm. Not shipping and handling (you twits). As my girfriend would say: "Vi tomar no cu, gerdal!"

  78. Re:This WILL increase piracy if it becomes the nor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The studios' only hope of survival is to focus on delivering the best possible experience; that means higher quality vision, sound and comfort in a theatre - for which a user will pay a premium. Moving away from this would be insane.

    The FIRST thing they can do is GET RID OF THOSE FSCKING RED DOTS ON THE PRINTS!!!

    I noticed such 'watermarking' on the last few films I watched in the theaters: Kill Bill Vol. I, all 3 LOTR movies, and Paycheck. It appears this practice started when 28 Days Later was in the theaters back in 2002.

    It doesn't work!

    Moviegoers who (always) notice them are annoyed/p!ssed off (like myself) and said dots can be removed by determined/skillful media pirates before the copied content is illegally redistributed.

    Give it up, Hollywood, such watermarking is a lost cause!!!!

    I also suggest that they stop selling popcorn. I pay to experience a theatre's sound system too, you know.

    I virtually never buy anything other than a movie ticket when I go see a movie. Theater (chain) owners need to bring the concession prices down or secure a better cut of the box office income from the movie distributors in order to increase their profits.