Mod Chips Up, Game Industry Revenues Down?

securitas writes "In his latest Game On column, the Boston Globe's Hiawatha Bray describes Xbox and PS2 game console hackers as software pirates who use mod chips and damage game industry revenue. The focus of the column seems to be on the use of mod chips as a way to circumvent game copy controls and glosses over legitimate uses, although he mentions some of them. Without offering any research or concrete numbers, Bray facetiously writes, 'But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire.' Are the majority of mod chip users 'pirates' or are they legitimate users with legitimate applications for the modifications that Bray hasn't considered?"

Comments

Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Space cowboy]

I think Bray has a good point. I think the vast majority of people who own 'modded' consoles have had them modded so they can hire a game from Blockbuster and pirate it. My PS2 is modded, and I used it for coding on before the PS2 linux kit and SPS2 came along (haven't used the mod-chip since), but I'm definitely the exception rather than the rule (well, if my circle of friends are anything to go by, anyway).

The flipside however is that it should be the act of piracy that is illegal, not the act of modifying your own (paid-for !) hardware. When a law is enacted, it should make provision for exceptions, and as far as I know the various copyright/IP/whatever laws don't do this for mod-chips. If the exceptions aren't there, it is percieved as a 'bad' law, and people are less likely to respect a 'bad' law...

As for the manufacturers staying ahead: whatever one man can do, another can undo. Until the entire console is a single chip, the traces to the storage devices are all encrypted, and the thing is hermetically sealed with cyanide gas within, people will find a way around the restrictions. The more the challenge, the more will try.

Simon

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Trigun]

ntil the entire console is a single chip, the traces to the storage devices are all encrypted, and the thing is hermetically sealed with cyanide gas within

Don't give them any ideas.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[glenkim]

I think one very legitimate use being forgotten here is import games. If I get a PS2, I will most likely get a modchip and buy the Naruto fighting game from Japan, because it's pretty likely that the game will never be released in the States. So maybe backup purposes is a little hard to defend, but imports are a little stronger.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[IWorkForMorons]

I think the vast majority of people who own 'modded' consoles have had them modded so they can hire a game from Blockbuster and pirate it.

I'll agree, but even for those who pirate there are various reasons why. I'm not saying they are good reasons, but still. A friend of mine has a son. She doesn't have a lot of money, but she gives her kids everything she can. That included the PSX and a bunch of games and such for Christmas. The only problem was that after Christmas, there's not much money left for games. So the following Christmas, I decided to do them both a favour. About 2 weeks before Christmas, I took his PSX and installed a mod chip. For Christmas, I gave him three copied games, and told him that I could get him more. This kid was so excited he was in tears. It meant that he got to play all the games he wanted. And it meant even more to his mother, who was thankful she didn't have to worry about spending $60 on one game. Instead she could use the money to buy food and clothes for the kids. And it made me feel good, because I helped out a family that didn't get a lot of nice things.

Now I will say that yes, I do know that it's illegal. I don't kid myself by thinking "well, it's for a good cause, so it's OK". And that it probably wasn't the best morality lesson to teach the kid. But you know what...sometimes the moral thing to do isn't the best thing to do. So what....one kid who wasn't born to rich parents gets to enjoy his childhood a little more. I don't feel guilty about giving him that pleasure. Maybe that say more about society then piracy...

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[ERJ]

Although I personally have nothing against imports I have a feeling that the legality of them might be able to be called into question. I have a feeling that the DMCA could very well be used against you if you were found to be breaking export controls.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Chicane-UK]

Thats what I was going to say

Quite often there are a lot of legitimate uses for technologies that are often regarded as being used for nefarious purposes.

But mod chips were really designed with one thing in mind - allowing you to circumvent the in-built protection of consoles, to play copied games.

This is a much bigger problem for the console gaming industry as the majority of their money is made on software (Xbox is a good example), as they sell the hardware at a loss to encourage sales and undercut the competition.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[DotDavid]

I modded our XBOX (chip and larger hard drive) so we can store/run our games from the internal hard drive. It's just too big a risk ($50) letting my kids handle all those shiny disks.

And the added benifit of playing all our music, and displaying select photo albums... no brainer. The XBOX should have been shipped this way.

Is there room for one more in the trunk?

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[homer_ca]

Not going to judge that one way or the other, but one alternative is to buy the older games in the bargain bin for $20. Some of them are only a year or two old, and is Madden 2004 really any better than Madden 2002?

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[MoonBuggy]

But mod chips were really designed with one thing in mind - allowing you to circumvent the in-built protection of consoles, to play copied games.

They were designed to circumvent the protection, but they are not neccesarily for use with copied games. Imports are a big thing - they're out earlier and usually cheaper, I've had Final Fantasy XI since well before Christmas but here in the UK it won't be out for a long while yet. As well as imports there is the issue that's just come along with this generation of consoles - they're basically PCs so by unlocking that capability in an Xbox and adding a 120GB drive you have a nice media server with built in TV-out, front USB ports and at $3.50 (or whatever MS is selling them at now) they're a damn good deal, much cheaper than a full PC.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Total_Wimp]

- How many people are going to use their mod chips for imports?
- How many people are going to use their mod chips for backups?
- How many people are going to use their mod chips to run Linux?
- What kind of moron would believe an object that's twice as heavy will fall at the same speed as an object half as heavy?
- Doesn't everyone know that the internet is only used for porn?
- How many people will actually use a Linux distribution instead of just "playing around" with the free disk?

As long as people ask these rhetorical questions without providing any answers then they'll be able to twist your perception however they'd like. If we required some accurate answers to go with those questions then at least we'd be able to make some informed judgements. How about if the console makers answer these qestions:

-What percentage of games in use are pirated copies?
-What percentage of pirated copies are casual use (friend-to-friend) vs. organized theft (download from internet, guy on street corner, etc.)
-What percentage of game sales are re-buys for a game that was scratched, broken, etc?
-What percentage of people have unusable games (because of scratches, etc) that they don't replace because of the high price?
-Do the console makers offer a free/nominal cost replacement service for damaged discs?
-How does the rebuy/broken-but-not-replaced number compare with the "piracy" number?

Do you think the answers to those questions would give peoples some perspective that would not be in the console-makers favor? I can't answer that question until they answer theirs.

TW

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[FictionPimp]

Hell, I own a PS2, xbox, and gamecube, but I dont own more then 4 games. I have a blockbuster gamepass, I rent them play them till bored, and return them. The price per month is less then a single game purchased. I find that after I beat a console game, I'm done with it. So why bother buying it.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Evergreen98]

With the Xbox, there are several completely legitimate uses for a modchip: running Linux (cheap webserver), or playing media files on a TV. The major problem? End users cannot use these applications without a software modification or modchip.

Even though the applications might not be designed to increase piracy, one thing that Microsoft can and will "kick" about is the modified BIOS that modchips or exploits use. It's their intellectual property, and modifying it (like the EvoX team does) or reverse engineering it could be considered piracy. The only legal BIOS out there is Cromwell, which the Xbox-Linux team uses to load Linux. Most chips now come pre-loaded with Cromwell, which can flash the modchip with a more useful bios (think gray-market there.)

Initially, Microsoft's attach rate - the amount of games they would need to sell to become profitable on each console - was nine in-house titles per machine. I'm not sure of the exact figure today, though, with the recent price drop and all.

In any event, if you have an Xbox and don't care about Xbox Live, there are software exploits you can use to perform the same features as a modchip would have. Xbox-Scene has pretty much anything a new modded Xbox user would want.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[enkidu87]

Selling import DVDs is a violation of the exclusive right to distribute the DVD in the US by the holder of that right. That right was paid for by the distributor to the copyright holder.

These are what are known as "grey market" items. While not "illegal" in the sence that criminal charges can be brought against you, the holder of the exclusive reproduction/distribution rights for the US can bring a civil suit.

Now, they generally don't go after the small fish who are selling a few in a store, the do go after those who bring in truck loads.

It is too costly to sue everyone who sells a grey market DVD or VCD. Living in the Bay Area, I see tons of grey market stuff as well as illicit copies of copyrighted material (from VCDs to fake Louis Voutton (sp?) bags). While some is "illegal", i.e., the government can charge you with criminal conduct, much is not. Like import video games and DVDs.

It is o.k. for YOU to order these things from over seas distributors, because you are technically buying it in another country from someone who is authorized to sell it to you for PERSONAL use.

Missed Opportunity

[Matey-O]

For the longest time I wanted a display device in the livingroom. Something that would play DVD/video/mp3s/internet streaming content. The Xbox seemd like the IDEAL solution based on the horsepower, ethernet and digital multichannel audio out. I'd heard rumors that it was CAPABILE of sending a progressive scan DVD video signal with just a software upgrade and it sounded even better.

Then a whole lotta nothing happened. I'd have been willing to spend another $50-$75 to microsoft/whoever for the capability. The modchip seems like the quickest way to get an unencumbered display device next to your TV in the family room, but at the expense of a lot of futzing around with the hardware.

Unfortunately, they missed their target opportunity as 99% of the world out there isn't gonna hack their Xbox to do this, and the only announcement I've seen from Microsoft is a software package that'll ONLY talk to a media center version of Windows XP. (here, you can do this, but first you have to buy this $2000 computer)

Meanwhile, I realized that internet radio sucks, and my iPod with iTunes fm modulator plus the dish network PVR provides everything I truely needed above and beyond the Xbox's DVD player.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[jefe7777]

>> 99% of the world out there isn't gonna hack their Xbox

exactly. and that's why every single one of these articles is bunk. I'm getting tired of companies/industries continuous stream of "we know why we aren't filthy rich!!!! It's the pirates!"

It couldn't be that 1st world cultures are so inundated with such a variety of things to do, from theaters, dvd, cd, games via console, games via pc, games via handhelds, cell phones, satellite tv, cable tv, broadband/web surfing, monster truck events, rock concerts, bowling, sports, excercise, learning to play a musical instrument, studying, working, spending time with the family...yada yada yada.

the shit is endless.

just like most people thing Microsoft has a great reputation, most people don't warez, most people don't hack their anything.

the miniscule minority that do...well they were not going to spend the money in the first place.

this constant barrage of "it's your fault(general consumer) we're not making crap loads of money", is just creating ill will.

there's gonna be fewer and fewer homeruns in the entertainment industry....just a fact of our current culture.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[cgenman]

I'd like to point out here that it isn't the gaming industry saying this. It is the tech reporter for the Boston Globe. Most of the game developers that I know realize that only a very small percentage of consoles that are chipped, and even then those that are probably wouldn't have bought your game anyway. I've seen rough estimates that piracy in computer games hovers around %10, and that sounds about right. When you're trying to pull your title from 30,000 sales to 1,000,000 sales, that %10 just doesn't seem worth devoting too many resources to. And that percentage is a lot smaller on consoles. A lot smaller.

Sony and Microsoft do go after chippers as a matter of routine, and they always give some plausable reason for it. But they too know that we're in the buildup phase to another generation of consoles, and they too expect sales to have started sloping off by now. Unlike certain other industries, very few of Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo's press releases are related to the subject of piracy... in fact I can't think of one offhand since they shut down Lik Sang :(.

This is just an attempt by a newspaper tech reporter to sensationalize a currently very minor problem to the game development industry by tying it to another industry's hype. At the GDC there was only one track related to piracy, and it was entirely sponsored by a copyprotection company. Generally speaking, we have more important things to do.

And finally, Microsoft really did drop the ball with the XBox. They could promised to deliver the mythical of the set-top box, and they almost succeeded. For the first time, the technology was there, the hardware was there, and the public was ready, but the terrible software just killed it. The fact that you have to chip it to unleash abilities completely unrelated to piracy and regional lockout should be a clue as to where they went wrong.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[cgenman]

The fact that you have to chip it to unleash those abilities just shows that there's no market (yet) in selling those abilities for the Xbox, or you would be able to get them commercially.

You can get them commercially. Where do you think mod chips come from, churches?

little kids?

[Shakrai]

'But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire.

My hunch says anyone who has small kids and doesn't want them to destroy a $40-$80 CD would be a likely candidate for such a mod chip and backup copies. My hunch also says that there are more parents with little kids that have gaming consoles then "will fit in the trunk of a Cadillac".

I'll stop making backup copies of my software then the gaming industry offers to send me replacement copies of damaged CDs without charging me anything more then shipping and handling. You can't have it both ways -- I'm either paying for the software license (in which case I have the right to make a backup or archival copy and they don't have the right to include technology that stops me from doing this) or I'm paying for the CD itself. And if I'm paying for the CD itself then it ought to cost a few bucks -- not $50. Hell if I pay for the software license who says I have to use the software off the CD? Is it really illegal for me to go and download something off Kazaa that I already own? Ditto for mp3s of songs that I already own the album for.

Re:little kids?

[NightSpots]

You really think there are more parents buying mod chips than teenagers and college students who just don't want to pay for games in the first place?

Really?

My guess is that the number of people who have bought mod chips solely to protect their games from little kids is ... well .... less than a dozen. Maybe two dozen, but not more than that.

Re:little kids?

[macrom]

My hunch says anyone who has small kids and doesn't want them to destroy a $40-$80 CD would be a likely candidate for such a mod chip and backup copies.

As a parent, I highly, highly doubt this. Parents with multiple children don't have time for 5 minutes of sex at night let alone sitting in front of a computer trying to make backup copies of some Spongebob Squarepants game. Most of us (our circle of friends with kids) require the younger children (9 or so and under) to ask for assistance before playing a console. The kids of all ages are simply taught how to use the console and the discs, and that not taking care of the discs will result in a game becoming unplayable. Most of us are from the school of thought that children should learn from an early age that they are responsible for their actions, and that expensive items should be treated with care and respect.

Kids have a high propensity to break ANYTHING, so making a backup copy of a $50 game is fine and dandy, but you can't make a backup copy of the $200+ console and the $50 mod chip that you bought to make backup copies so your kids didn't break the game.

Sorry for venturing off into some offtopic territory, but I just don't see that many parents modding a console and spending time doing backups of every game. There are far too many things fighting for parental time, and at the end of the day sex takes preference over burning game discs.

Re:little kids?

[_Hiro_]

But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire.

My hunch also says that there are more parents with little kids that have gaming consoles then "will fit in the trunk of a Cadillac".

It depends on what Cadillac. You can fit 1/2 the population of Cleveland in a 1978 Fleetwood.

Sure...

[jratcliffe]

Yeah, sure, most modchippers are doing it for perfectly legitimate purposes, just like most Kazaa users are sharing music files from bands that have authorized it.

Mod Chips Up?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who is this "Chips" and what has he done to deserve to be modded up?

Re:Mod Chips Up?

[Jerf]

Chips is user 4885, and hasn't posted since May, 2002. You can't mod Chips up, all his posts are locked in the archives.

The usual...

[detritus`]

Notice how they dont once mention that game industry revenues are up yet again, but like P2P mod chips are evil in their eyes... Personally i have a modded Xbox, and i just love the ability to have all my games on the HD as i use it in my car and i can throw the box somewhere nice and hidden and just hook it up to a 802.11g gateway when i need to update something. But apparently my doing this costs the game companies whose games i own money, prolly because i dont have to buy new copies to replace those that are all scratched up

Slogan.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Software Piracy - 30 years of killing the gaming industry!"

I have a mod chip and 0 pirated games

[iansmith]

The DVD player in the PS2 is really, really cheap and it does not take much to damage a PS2 DVD to the point where it does not play.

I have several such disks that I can only play because I have a MOD chip and I have copied the scratched DVD's to new disks that the PS2 can read.

Plus there are some neat free utilities for working with save games on the memory card, multimedia players and othersoftware that is difficult to run on an un-modded PS2.

Here comes more laws....

[NIN1385]

Well well, looks like the gaming industry is hurting from people copying media and sharing it. We should be seeing laws some day soon, since whenever the rich start to loose their money they start bribing politicians. Let's just hope they realize sooner than the RIAA did that you'll never get rid of people sharing stuff. Sharing is the first step towards peace! Alright...so it is an excuse, so what!

Less concerned with piracy

[karb]

But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire.

More concerned a boston globe reporter is plotting to kidnap me.

It's mine

[Doesn't_Comment_Code]

Modifying something you own is NOT illegal. You might be able to do something illegal as a result. Then that action would be illegal, not the modification.

When I was a kid, nothing was soldered shut. You could open any product you wanted to fix it or see how it worked.

Recently, I've seen companies try to scare you into not altering what you buy through voiding warranties and placing intimidating stickers on access panels.

I'm getting sort of sick of it. Once I buy something, it is mine to do with as I please. I can meddle with it, improve it, or smash it with a hammer. It's mine. And I'd appreciate if they could all remember that.

Re:It's mine

[Jacer]

It is illegal, deal with it. If you want to change the law (dmca) that makes acts that circumvent copy protection illegal, then you need to lobby your representatives. here are some good links

Go with your gut feeling

[HardCase]

Are the majority of mod chip users 'pirates' or are they legitimate users with legitimate applications for the modifications that Bray hasn't considered?

The majority of the mod chip users that I know are pirates.

-h-

Re:Go with your gut feeling

[FrostedWheat]

The majority of the mod chip users that I know are pirates.

Well you try to swap a disk with a hook for an arm without scratching it! It makes sense to backup in that case!

Re:Right here....

[mattkime]

Fair enough....

now are you willing to get into the trunk of Bray's Cadillac?

Does ANYBODY find it suspicious that...

[StandardCell]

...revenues are down because of "pirate" chips, yet there's a marked decline in originality and an increase in sequels?

This is almost starting to sound like the flailings of the RIAA.

Backups are legit for some of us...

[stephenisu]

how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups?

Those of us with young children who love playing with shiny discs...

The DiscDoctor can't do a lot when they scrape off the top of the disc, or you have resurfaced it so many times the disc gets too thin for the laser to focus..

Come on

[Swamii]

What a liar. We make backups; just most of the backups are of games that we don't own. :-)

I never

[stoolpigeon]

knew much about mod chips or anything and then last week I watched that new Broken video where they showed a little bit about installing them on 3 consoles. I never understood what mod chips did before that.

They made it perfectly clear in that video that the whole point was you could borrow or rent games and then keep them after you return the physical media. Why else would you pay that kind of money for the chip and then install it- when it looks like you are chancing junking the console?

Now I still use my Sega Genesis- I don't own one of the newer systems, so maybe I'm wrong. But it seems that the slant of this - "it's not for illegal uses!" argument in the thread is /. bias that is as bad or worse than any assumptions the author of the article made.

Re:I never

[iainl]

Sure, I'm perfectly prepared to believe there are many out there using it to copy games, just as many people copied Playstation games.

But every chipped XBox owner I know is more interested in playing copies of Genesis or Snes games than illegal XBox ones. Not least because practically every decent XBox game these days is online, and you can't play backups on Live.

One word: kids

[badzilla]

I'm amazed how fragile PS2 games are, one decent-size scratch on the printed side and its a goner. You and I might put such a sensitive and expensive item carefully back in its jewel case, but kids drop them behind the TV or use them as impromptu cutting tools or space weapons. I've lost count of the tearful occasions when things won't load.

Their console isn't modchipped - but I wish it was.

Re:One word: kids

[Zenki]

Then kids need to learn to take care of their media. The next time they complain that some game or DVD movie is not load, just calmly tell them why it won't load. Show them the scratches on the bottom of the dvd, or the gouge on top that destroyed the data layer. Explain to them the media is completely ruined and that it was a big chunk of change.

Let them contemplate that and if they start treating other games better, then reward them by replacing that lost game or movie. It'll save you money in the long run, and hopefully teach them the value of money so they won't start blowing it off and getting into massive American-style debt in their teen years.

Re:One word: kids

[mr.capaneus]

Explain to them the media is completely ruined and that it was a big chunk of change.Let them contemplate that...
Either you don't spend much time around kids or you spend time around some exceptionally mature ones. Keep in mind that we are talking about little people that pick their nose and eat it.

RANT: This got way too far...

[sploxx]

Why the hell has one to argument that there are legal uses (backup etc.) to make a good case for mod chips?

IMHO, I should be able to do what I want, with the hardware I bought. Trash it, burn in (keeping the fumes out of the environment, of course ;), stomp on it or mod it!!

Why got it that far that one now has to argument that 'there are legitimate uses'?!

Sometimes I really tend to believe that all the anti-piracy ads, acts, etc. transport subliminal mind-control messages even to /.ers... this can't be true?!

Disclaimer: I never owned a gaming console, and I am not planning to buy one.

Imports?

[t_allardyce]

I know lots of people who use mod chips to play legal? import games.

Legal or not, you cannot ban mod-chips, theres simply no way. The chip itself is just a blank microprocessor (usually a PIC) which is perfectly legal, and the code which goes on it is tiny and you just cant stop a tiny file spreading around the net. As far as im concerned the moment manufacturers started putting restrictions in their consoles they decided to play by the game of technology and if they have the right to do that then you have the right to modify something you own.

Re:Imports?

[NanoGriever]

I agree about using mod chips to play import games. There are many many games in Japan that will never be brought over to the US, for whatever silly reasons. (Not being 3D enough, niche genre, etc) For example, being a Xenosaga fan, I would like to get my hands on the fan disc Xenofreaks that is coming out in April. But there is absolutely no chance that the game will be brought over to the US. The only option I have is to import. And I need a mod chip to play an import game.

Terrible research

[jvmatthe]

But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire.

And yet not one of them was interviewed! This guy posted on USENET asking for information and I responded in email saying that I could tell him about the fliptop modification I made to my PS2. I'd even be happy to give my name for the record because I only use it to play emulators and homebrew software. Furthermore, I only play emulators for which I own the original games. I'm uptight that way, so sue me.

I'm sure it's more sensational to talk about the modchips and pirates and oh look at all that money that the industry loses to illegal copies of games! But a real opportunity was missed here to discuss what can really be done, within the limits of the law, with a modified console.

I guess I'll just stay in the back of this Cadillac with all the other folks using a modified console for legal purposes.

Import

[shadowcabbit]

I was going to post something about how the primary legitimate use for a modchip would be to play imported games, but then again, a) it's not technically legitimate, because bypassing the regional lockout could be construed as a DMCA violation (don't ask me how or why), and b) since I'm looking into doing some importing (Bemani and Pop'n Music) relatively soon, I'm actually looking at a bootloader disc or "cheat" device as opposed to opening up my machine.

Many people I know who import would rather use the bootloader and not a chip. The chip's advantage is that you don't have an extra step when booting an import game; its disadvantage is that it disallows online play (if you're into that sort of thing). Trading a popular and enjoyable use of the system for ten seconds' convenience is not an acceptable trade.

Yawn

[TheCarp]

Does it really matter?

I have noticed a trend lately. People see something that they effectivly can't stop, that is people modifying the hardware THAT THEY BOUGHT AND PAID FOR. To get around restrictions that were built into it.

Now some people want to ask "Does this have a legitimate use?". Can it possibly matter? They arn't making WMDs here, they are modifying some game hardware that they bought and paid for, they are modifying their own property.

I think it absolutly audacious that restrictions of any sort were artificially built into these products for any reason other than operator safety. Even more so that someone would question whether modification of ones own property has "legitimate use".

The most fundamental legitimate use of a mod chip is "because I wanted to". End of story.

-Steve

yup, yup, yup.

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

Ohhhhh! Ooooooo! You'll get modded down! How dare you point out an obvious truth that goes against the Slashdot Party Line!

I would bet that more than 75% of the P2P users out there have LOADS of stuff that is not "fair use". But people here tend to try to "justify" it, ignoring the fact that they are only fooling themselves.

Real reasons for mod chips

[emtboy9]

First off, why is it never mentioned that there has been a significant increase in video game RENTALS in the last few years as more and more video stores (esp the Mom&Pop rental stores) start stocking more and more games? Hell, why should I pay 50+ for a game for my PS2 that I can rent for 5 days for 4.95? I usually have the games I play beat in under 10 days, so for 10 bucks, I get the game, get the play, and dont get stuck with a disk I dont want afterwards.

As for Mod chips, I dont have a modded PS2 or XBox yet, but if I did, the sole reason would be to play imports from Japan. There are some pretty slick games in Japan that will never make it to market here simply because of the cultural differences. So what choice do I have? Move to Japan, or a Mod chip... since technically, it is illegal for me to go to Japan, buy a PS2, XBox, or GameCube, then bring it back into the country with assorted games.

Maybe if game companies, like the DVDCCA would get their heads out of their arses for a bit, and realize that the very idea of region coding is stupid, and that gamers are getting tired of paying 50+ per game, for games that are NOT that expensive to design anymore, lower the prices and get rid of the stupid region coding crap.

I mean, if a new game comes out, that is truely new, with a new engine, new graphics, etc, then yeah, its probably worth 50 bucks or so. But a sequal, or a sequal to a sequal, running on the same base code that the original did, with the only real changes being maps, images and avatars, is NOT worth 50 bucks.

I certainly would not pay new car price to get my old car re-painted, so why should I pay new game price to get my old game re-mapped?

Re:Real reasons for mod chips

[tekunokurato]

ha, ironically enough if they included the increase in rentals as part of the equation they'd end up using it as 'evidence' that more people are modding and copyring instead of buying.

Re:Real reasons for mod chips

[greenskyx]

"why is it never mentioned that there has been a significant increase in video game RENTALS" I think they ignore the fact that some games are over priced. I find it crazy to spend $50 on console games... Some games like Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance (I & II) are fun, but can be beat in one or two rental periods ($12 where I'm at for 10 days). That's WAY less than $50. Other games I just wait a few months till they are ~$20-$30 and get them used.

Don't forget region protection

[danaris]

The other important legitimate reason to have a modchip is to play games from a different region. I have Final Fantasy X, but I hate the people doing the voices (except for a couple of them). I've found a few clips online of the Japanese version, and I love the voices there. I want to buy--legally, from Square--the Japanese version, so I can play it through with the original voices. But I can't play it on my US PS2 without a modchip. Thus, I intend to get a modchip.

I don't have any backups (though, once I have a modchip, I might make some, for exactly the reasons you state), and never plan to get PS2 games illegally. I just want to play games from Japan. If there were a modchip that allowed me to play legal imports, but not backup games, I'd get it.

There is, so far as I can tell, no possible legal argument against this, unless they take the DMCA and twist it even farther than the printer manufacturers have. Having bought the original media, why can I not access it? Heck, I'll even wait until the game comes out in the US (if there are plans to) before buying it, so they don't even have that stupid argument!

I want to give them my money, but Sony won't let me.

Dan Aris

In the strictest sense, yes, they are pirates

[LordZardoz]

Not because they are ripping off XBox or PS2 games. Mostly because everyone I know who has modded their XBox uses it to play MAME, NES, or SNES emulated games.

But while the occasional modder does copy X-Box games, most are not using their XBox in a way that would deprive Microsoft of revenue. Its not like Microsoft can extract any profit from MAME anyway.

END COMMUNICATION

Re:In the strictest sense, yes, they are pirates

[gozar]

Nintendo no longer makes profit from NES/SNES, so I wouldn't exactly call playing an NES/SNES emulator "pirating".

By all means, point me to a store that sells SNES games where NINTENDO makes a profit.

Well, to be totally facetious, it appears that Nintendo is re-releasing every SNES game as a Gameboy Advance game, so they are still profiting off of these old games. (And they plan on releasing NES games soon, such as Excitebike and Legend of Zelda).

Re:Damage industry revenue?

[SiW]

Yes, I think you did miss the release where they announced a product that allows you to stream your movies from a shared network resource.

3rd-party tools such as XMP do indeed damage revenue, then, just as Linux and BSD damage Windows sales.

I'm not saying we as customers shouldn't have a choice, I'm just saying that from Company X's point of view a free competing product is definitely going to do some damage.

Re:Sure...(Let's outlaw everything.)

[gosand]

Yeah, sure, most modchippers are doing it for perfectly legitimate purposes, just like most Kazaa users are sharing music files from bands that have authorized it.

Most drivers go over the speed limit in their cars. Yet cars are still legal. Cars are used in homocides every day, yet cars are still legal. Guns are used to commit crimes, yet guns are still legal in the US. Alcohol is consumed by underage people, yet it is still legal in this country.

If you want to outlaw something because it has illegal uses, let's be fair across the board.

Having said that, I think that the *main* users of mod chips use them to pirate games. There are certainly legal uses of them however. There are legal (and quite useful) uses for P2P, even though the majority *right now* is for illegal activity. I think the key is to develop those legal uses, to have something to back up the technology.

Punish the crime, not the tool...

[Thud457]

"Bongs enable people to smoke marijuanna."

Yeah, whatever...

In some places (the UK, I believe, fer instance), you can be charged with "possession of burglary tools" for being in the wrong place with a screwdriver in you pocket. That's pretty WHACK.

Where there's a will, there's a way. The best that stupid laws like that do is intimidate the stupid. That's a lofty goal for our legislatures. Oh, wait, now I'm conflicted...

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[y0gi]

Both bongs and crack pipes are actually legal (in the US) and are sold in many retail stores. Untill they are used for an illegal purpose such as smoking weed or crack which leaves a film of tar on the piece and can be tested to see if it was used for a illegal purpose. The obvious problem being how dose one test to see if a mod chip has been used for an illegal purpose, however that does not mean it should be illegal

Original PlayStation

[DarkMagician07]

You know, I came into the mod-scene with the original PlayStation. There were a ton of games that a friend of mine brought over from Europe and Japan that we wanted to play while he was here. Unfortunately, the European PS doesn't play on an NTSC TV.

Because of this, we modded my PS to play his games (all purchased copies, no 'backups'), and I learned of quite a few games that I would have missed out on, had it not been for that modchip.

I had him send me more games when he got back, as he travelled to Japan regularly and could get games for a decent price at the time. Too bad I couldn't read Japanese, though, as some of those games looked like they had interesting dialogue :)

No more "hurt" than pirated PC games...

[DroopyStonx]

Most people don't have the know how or the care to mod their systems. Sometimes price is an issue. If you can't solder it yourself, you'll most likely have to send it to a shop somehwere and have someone do it for ya. A lot of people don't want to bother with that.. they don't want to bother with the possible risk of frying your system.

I have a modded PS2 and copy games all the time. I have no problems admitting it. Yeah yeah, I'm a worthless thieving piece of shit, yadda yadda. I'm not justifying it at all, but people have been spreading PC games all over IRC, usenet, P2P, etc... for YEARS. I wouldn't exactly say that the video game industry is suffering because of it.

It doesn't make it okay to do it, but you don't see PC game developers getting up in arms over it (at least, they aren't going on a stampede like the ??AA). UT2004 has been spread all around and it even includes a patch so you can play it online. Compare the sales of 2004 vs the original, which was probably pirated just as much, if not more.

On a more moral note, I've thought about getting a mod for my little seven year old brother's PS2 simply because the games are expensive and he has scratched some already. Granted, they still work, but... at $50 a pop, those things aren't easily replaceable. Sure, I suppose he could be taught to handle them better, but people should still be able to make backup copies of games.

Some might bring up the argument, "Well, with that thinking, how would these companies survive then if everyone did what you're doing?" That's the thing, not everyone does it. I'm sure most people on here know how to go about gettin an ISO of a game if they really wanted it. Does it mean they're going to? The possibility is there, but probably not.

It doesn't justify it, but this type of problem has always existed and always will exist.

Absolutely not!

[NineNine]

. I think the vast majority of people who own 'modded' consoles have had them modded so they can hire a game from Blockbuster and pirate it.

That's INSANE!! Why pay $$ to rent a movie when you can just download it?
Of course, I often have to download my "backups" because my original is unplayable. Um, yeah, that's it.

Who needs mod chips?

[dlc1911]

The Xbox makes a very useful media player for the living room. http://www.xboxmediacenter.com The only reason I bought an Xbox was for this purpose... Now I have 3 and none of them have mods chips since you can flash the onboard bios (Mechwarrior exploit). I own the hardware so I do as I will with it. Obviously I would not ask Mikeysoft to fix it if it broke at this point since it is not in the original purchased condition. With the notorious failures of the Thompson DVDROM in the Xbox I certainly backup my games to my upgraded Xbox hard drive. I would like to say thanks to M$ for making it so easy to modify. Nothing like a $130 (refurbed) networked DVD/mpg/m2v/mp3 player for the living room.

Overlooking another legit use for mod chips

[Altima(BoB)]

There's another mod chip use that I think people are overlooking, and I feel it is legit, even though some may disagree. That use is getting around region encoding. Like DVDs, modern game consoles, no longer encumbered by mechanical issues like TV standard differences use a system of region codes. This is done so that they can enforce different release dates in places like Europe (It took Final Fantasy X seven months to go from the US to Europe, and they didn't even optimize it for PAL or change any of the spellings of words.) Also, they want to enforce prices, the average new game in the us is $50 as far as I understand, in the EU it's the equivalent of $65, sometimes higher.

Okay, game companies may think it's doing something wrong, but it's just circumventing a system that shouldn't be there at all. By buying the same product on a different continent, you're giving the same giant multinational money, you just don't need to tolerate being treated as a second class market. With mod chips you can do this. Okay, ending my rant :)

Re:Overlooking another legit use for mod chips

[Altima(BoB)]

Yeah, exactly. I often wonder if at any point in the existance of society these big corporations will ever see these actions and rather than seeing it as a simple crime, see it as a message from the consumers that they don't like things and won't tolerate it. If companies interpreted it like this and changed their practices to suit consumers, perhaps they'll increase profits, making a win/win scenario.

I'm sure this is not a new idea, and if I'm oversimplifying, please correct me, but it seems to me that the balance between "The customer is always right" and "Caveat Emptor" has really shifted these days to consumers being treated as enemies...

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[sqlrob]

Tell that to Tommy Chong

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[IWorkForMorons]

Bongs enable people to smoke marijuanna.

Man...you must be smoking pretty strong stuff to believe that. First off...BONG HITS ARE NOT ILLEGAL! What could be illegal is what's in the bowl. But the actual device itself isn't. At least in some part of the US and most of Canada. There were some strange incidents, like the owner of Chills Cigarette Papers being arrested for "manufacturing drug paraphernalia." And then there was the arrest of Tommy Chong. Christ...who couldn't see THAT one coming. But still, is it necessary? No...pipes and papers could be used for many other things...

The other thing is, and I know this from great experience, you don't need a bong to smoke. Or at least a store-bought bong. Bongs can be made out of a great number of things, all of which look inconspicuous. Besides that, you can use papers to roll a joint; use a regular tobacco pipe; set it on fire and put a bottle with the bottom cut off over it; create a lung with a pop bottle, some tape, an empty bread bag, and a piece of tin foil; you could make a gravity bong with a pop bottle, a bucket, and a piece of tin foil...I could go on, but you get the point. There are a great number of ways to smoke pot. And many don't even require walking into a store...

Superior Solution

[Smilodon]

I am using my XBox (with 200gig drive) for XBox Media Center. I hardly play the few games I got with the device.

Frankly Xbox Media Player is a superior solution for playing various digital media than other set-top box solutions. It is only matched by a "full-blown" PC, which I don't want in my living room.

The software will play nearly anything, which makes some of the other "set-box" solutions seem pathetic due to the limitations of what format video they require.

Yes, I know the XBox is essentially a PC, but it has HD output, a wireless remote, a (region free with the software)DVD Player and so forth.

Sure, I could build a shuttle or some other small form factor PC to do the same tricks, but I've got less than $400 bucks in this solution all out.

I know they expected to make money off of me on all the games I would buy, so that's why I got it so cheap. That's not a great deal for them, but regardless, I'm not pirating games!

Rights.

[eSavior]

Consumers are quickly losing what rights they have on products they buy. Some people on here have said to lobby congress against the DMCA. I am curious to if anyone has actually seen benifit from that? Lobbying congress as a individual may have worked in the 1900s but today if you dont got the money our representatives dont care. You may say that intrest groups are a collective of individuals trying to get to a common goal, but take a look at the amount of campaign donations high end intrests groups make (NRA). Laws now go to the highest bidder. Welcome to a capitalist democracy.

Also, some have said we should be able to do what we want with things we buy, in responce people have brought up bongs and guns. These things are very emotionally charged, and are not very good examples.

A better one would be, 3rd party hardware. Ever buy a non sony memmory card? They are generally cheaper or have more storage capacity. Well what if sony put a lock on its machine that would allow only sony santioned electronics to be pluged in. You then would be forced to pay whatever the price they picked for their cards. Competition would be non existant.

The problem with this is, what if that locking out of competition was also used as a way of stoping pirated games. And that is the situation the legitmate modders find themselves in. They wish to back up their games, or make homebrew code, but they dont want to circumvent copy protection, unfortunatly how its designed one can not come with out the other.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[dnoyeb]

My sister received a bong at the hospital last weekend. An asthma bong. Its a normal inhaler, but with a BONG attached to it because it, "delivers more medecine."

Of course they're used mostly for piracy

[realmolo]

Yeah, you can backup your games. But unless you are perishingly honest, you won't. You'll rent games, make copies.

On the X-Box, it's even easier, if you've added a bigger hard drive along with the modchip. You just rip the game to the hard drive.

Now, as to the question of how this hurts game sales- let me put it this way:

The only people I know that have modded consoles are myself, and 2 friends who learned how to do it from me.

NO ONE owns modded consoles. At least, it's a statistically insignificant number. It doesn't hurt sales. What hurts sales is the fact that you'd have to be crazy to pay $50 for a game when you can rent it for $6 and finish it in a few days.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[maddskillz]

Was it the medical skull bong, or medical wizzard bong?

Damaged revenue

[swb]

Did I miss something? Were game vendors, the MPAA or the RIAA promised a certain amount of revenue or revenue growth? If not, how can their revenues be "damaged"?

The only thing I can think of is that they're just automatically expecting revenue growth, or they have some model that says X consoles means Y games should be sold.

Either way, why automatically blame piracy for this? Why not blame shitty games, aging console tech, a bad economy, or some other problem?

It kind of reminds me of the computer software industry that counts every pirated copy a lost sale, despite the fact that most of those copies would have never have been 'sold' due to their cost, complexity or sheer lack of use by the person with a copy of them.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[Ellis D. Tripp]

Lack of enforcement probably has to do with lack of law enforcement resources, along with the vague "tobacco use" disclaimer in the federal statute. Head shop owners ALWAYS have a "for tobacco or legal herb use only" sign conspicuously posted, and generally will eject people who ask for the prohibited "bongs" rather than the permissible "water pipes". A strict reading of the federal law renders these things illegal, regardless of the disclaimer, but apparently the feds are content (for the time being) with busting ONLINE pipe sellers rather than their "brick and mortar" counterparts. Maybe when they get done arresting cancer patients and the like, they can start going after the menace of the "bong merchants"? Maybe the fact that the stores pay local taxes, etc. keep them safe from local cops?

Mod Chipping and Region Coding

[ronfar]

I mod chipped my Playstation for one reason and one reason only, to play games that Sony decided would never see the light of day (Samurai Spirits, Rockman, Last Blade) in the United States but were available in Japan. This is the same reason I modded my Dreamcast (Vampire Chronicles, Shenmue II). Sony is still pulling this crap, which is why SNK is making games for the XBox.

I could care less what happens to the console manufacturers as long as they are region coding their games, but I didn't mod my systems so I could play pirate games. When Sony started fixing their games so they wouldn't play in my modded Playstation, I got rid of all my American games (gave them to some kid with an unmodded PSOne). I know I could've re-mod chipped it so it would work, but frankly I was buying too many games for it (both American and Foreign) and supporting Sony by spending a lot on games. Sony won, they very loudly shouted that they didn't want my business and they never got it back, and never will. The only reason why I didn't get rid of my Japanese games and modded Playstation is because they are exotic and only of interest to a few people. It sits in a cardboard box on a shelf in my room, never to be used by me again, probably.

Now that I've built my own up-to-date PC I'm probably going to mainly be buying games for it, a relatively open platform.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[DjMd]

Uhhh dude, it's not a Bong, it's a spacer
and it doesn't deliver more medicine, it makes for smaller particles which will go further into the lung (delivery verses dosage, but now I'm spliting hairs)

both, eventually

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

The problem for the honest user of the system is that they want to play a backup game, or an import game, etc. The manufacturers of the system make it so hard to do this, that the easiest way to do this is to add a mod chip.

Once the mod chip is in, however, no matter your good intentions, the ability to pay $0 instead of $50 for your next game has a strong arm of persuasion.

Then again, one of the reasons (one, not the only reason) I went with the GameCube is that it is (so far) impossible to pirate games for. I know my limits, and how strong the temptation can be to pirate if given the opportunity.

Perhaps if the system vendors stopped the nonsensical practice of region-coding, and made it very easy and inexpensive to obtain replacement media copies if yours is damaged, the need for legitimate mod chips would be over, and the temptation to pirate would be removed from the living room.

What a dilemma...

[gfxguy]

Now I will say that yes, I do know that it's illegal. I don't kid myself by thinking "well, it's for a good cause, so it's OK". And that it probably wasn't the best morality lesson to teach the kid. But you know what...sometimes the moral thing to do isn't the best thing to do. So what....one kid who wasn't born to rich parents gets to enjoy his childhood a little more. I don't feel guilty about giving him that pleasure. Maybe that say more about society then piracy...

I'm don't want to slam you or anything for doing this, after all, I don't really know what I'd do myself (although I've never had/used/installed a mod chip).

First of all, as sad as this is going to sound, if someone couldn't afford a playstation they probably shouldn't have bought one. For someone that a playstation is a big purchase, they ought to have done their homework and figured out that the console is just the start - there's the memory and extra controller, and that doesn't even include a game.

Now ask yourself, is that kid going to be better off in 10 or 20 years because he had a playstation? I doubt it.

And indeed, the lesson you taught him was that if you can't afford it it's OK to steal it. Now, we're not talking about a loaf of bread to feed a starving family, we're talking about something entirely luxerious. TVs, video games, cellphones... these are all luxeries, not essentials.

So you've made the kid and his mom happy, which is fine, but I personally don't find your contribution to society positive. If you wanted to be magnanimous, you should have just bought him a couple of legal games. As others have pointed out, there are plenty of bargain priced and used games out there.

Really, when faced with a situation like this, ask what is going to be the best for the boy in the long run. Receiving stolen goods probably isn't the answer to that question.

Uh, does this mean ....

[RLW]

... for what ever reason if wanted to put windows on the XBox i could do this with a mod chip and a windows CD ? Would a USB keyboard and mouse work and the dislpay is just the tv out ?

Re:Uh, does this mean ....

[MoonBuggy]

USB keyboards and mice do work on the Xbox in certain standard setup screens and the standard, unmodded system is running a custom Win2k kernel, so it is probably possible. Whether it is doable without access to the source may be another matter, however.

Sold my Modded Xbox

[Lord_Rion]

My $0.02 worth:

I sold my Modded Xbox about a year ago. I never really used it to pirate any games. Although I did extend my use of a few rented ones for a couple of days. I sold it and bought a new Xbox that has not, and most likely, will not be Modded. The guy I sold it to knows there's a mod chip in there.. thinks it's great, but wouldn't know how to use it if his life depended on it.

I personally think that all the time waisted on trying to install the mod chip, keep the software current and then to copy and store the games is alot more trouble then just buying the 2 or 4 titles a year I really want and renting the rest.

Re:Damage industry revenue?

[User 956]

Yes, I think you did miss the release where they announced a product that allows you to stream your movies from a shared network resource.

Of course, you can only stream from a $1500 windows media center PC. It won't let you stream from a 500gb Raid V Samba share, or a NAS device.

I'm just saying that from Company X's point of view a free competing product is definitely going to do some damage.

I wouldn't exactly describe them as "competing products", considering the Media center PC marketshare is miniscule, compared to the number of people with a cheap linux fileserver.

With its current restrictions, Windows Media Center edition is for suckers and old people.