Element Computer: ION Linux on Linux Hardware

JigSaw writes "Well known Lycoris person Jason Spisak left the company to join Element Computer, a new hardware company which now strives to offer the Apple experience on PCs: they sell Linux-certified modern hardware with their own flavor of Debian, ION Linux. ION is a desktop distro and it is developed specifically to work perfectly with the accompanied hardware. Other highlights include usage support (as opposed to installation-only support other distros provide) and system upgrades specific to the exact hardware the user runs. The KDE-based distro will only sell with their hardware as Mike Hjorleifsson says in his interview." (The company was previously mentioned on Slashdot.)

Comments

Finally...

[Decameron81]

...2004 is the year of Linux!!!

What a match!

[Anonymous Coward]

The cheapness of Apple hardware with the expense of a Linux distribution license!

Re:What a match!

[useosx]

I don't understand why people are comparing this to Apple.

I mean, isn't this what Dell, HP, etc do? Each machine that these companies sell have their slightly modified version of Windows (mostly drivers and stuff) so that you don't need configure Windows to run on the machine.

So, yeah, you could run vanilla windows on an HP machine, but you'd have to install some drivers. Similarly, you could install Debian on a Element Computer box, but you'd have to install some drivers.

Re:What a match!

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly.

Re:What a match!

[misleb]

Well, it sounds like Element does it a little bit more than what HP does to Windows.

Re:What a match!

[perlchild]

What makes it like apple is that their software doesn't work on other people's hardware.
The Windows version you get from Dell also works(at least, the serial number would) on an HP.

Re:What a match!

[LittleBigLui]

(at least, the serial number would)

so the bad thing is that linux usually comes without "copy protection"?

This could work if the price is right

[christopher240240]

If they follow apple's lead on hw/sw integration and keep the prices reasonable, this could be a very nice way to show Linux as a user-friendly option.

Re:This could work if the price is right

[Anonymous Coward]

I just went there and maxed out the hardware on their desktop system, and it was smokin' righteous at only $4,700.
About the only better thing you could get with a G5 is one of those ludicrous big flat panels...

Re:This could work if the price is right

[Anonymous Coward]

Then again, you gots ta ask, who needs 21 inches of emacs, anyway...

Re:This could work if the price is right

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because people have been clamoring for hardware lock-in when running Linux. That's why all the x86 PCs that are already compatible with nearly any distro aren't being used for Linux.

Dumbest. Idea. Ever.

Besides, every time I post about hardware problems I have, I'm told it's PEBKAC, and that everything works perfectly on Linux. Is that suddenly not the case?

Re:This could work if the price is right

[AKAImBatman]

If they follow apple's lead on hw/sw integration and keep the prices reasonable, this could be a very nice way to show Linux as a user-friendly option.

From the article:

We "allow", but don't support DIY apt-get functionality, apt is configured to pull from our selected sources, not the standard Debian apt repositories. An experienced user can easily add standard Debian repositories and install packages themselves, though our tracking system will pick it up and those self-tested, self-installed packages will not be supported by the std warranty/support.

So they're "bringing the Apple experience" by only letting you install the software they want you to. Doesn't that seem a little draconian? That's like if Microsoft changed Windows so you couldn't install Mozilla, or Apple only let you install products via their "software update" functionality. That's just not user friendly.

User friendly is coming up with an application packaging method that doesn't suck. Apple did it with .APP, why is it so hard for Linux vendors to understand? Even some Linux users are trying to replicate Apple's success with the Zero Install project.

Re:This could work if the price is right

[Anonymous Coward]

Um , NO, read your own quote smart guy, it says that those packages will be unsupported, not void your support, there is a huge difference.

Re:This could work if the price is right

[AKAImBatman]

Um , NO, read your own quote smart guy, it says that those packages will be unsupported, not void your support, there is a huge difference.

As I said, draconian. Voiding a warranty over "unapproved" software is tantamount to not replacing a broken CD player because the last disk it played was published by a non-RIAA label. In other words, it defeats the point of the device.

If all I wanted was the programs provided by the company I bought it from, I'd buy a pocket organizer or an Audrey.

Re:This could work if the price is right

[Anonymous Coward]

it's not like you call microsoft when AOL breaks. You call America Online. Or when photoshop breaks you call Adobe, it wouldn't make sense to call Microsoft, nor would it make sense to call Element when fluxbox breaks. Email fluxbox, get it?

Re:This could work if the price is right

[ceswiedler]

Limiting the hardware and the software is the only way they can provide real support. The combinations of hardware, software, and configurations which people label as "Linux" are staggering.

Obviously this isn't for anyone who is already comfortable running Linux distros. If you can do that successfully, would you really need support? When was the last time you contacted a company for software support?

Clearly this isn't for you (or me). That doesn't make it useless.

Re:This could work if the price is right

[Geek of Tech]

I thought what it meant was that if your special compiled GIMP V55 Bazillion in installed on this system, then fine. Just don't ask them to fix it if that program doesn't quite work right. Okay. Fine. That's standard. You support what you produce. Anything more is... good... but... odd.....

Re:This could work if the price is right

[AKAImBatman]

it's not like you call microsoft when AOL breaks. You call America Online. Or when photoshop breaks you call Adobe, it wouldn't make sense to call Microsoft, nor would it make sense to call Element when fluxbox breaks. Email fluxbox, get it?

And it's not like Microsoft won't help you fix a video driver or startup problem if you install AOL. According the article, ION will.

Get it?

Re:This could work if the price is right

[Spoing]

1. So they're "bringing the Apple experience" by only letting you install the software they want you to. Doesn't that seem a little draconian? That's like if Microsoft changed Windows so you couldn't install Mozilla, or Apple only let you install products via their "software update" functionality. That's just not user friendly.

Does Dell, Toshiba, IBM, HP/Compaq, or Microsoft support software they don't ship?

You can install anything you want...they just do not support that additional software.

Over 800 packages are installed on my system, most from my distribution but some are not. A few select programs aren't even installed as packages, and I've done some customization of the kernel I'm running. Where should the line be drawn for support in my case?

As I see it, if they offer support beyond making sure the hardware functions with the supporting software they provide, that's a bonus.

If the USB ports don't work, and I'm using software and hardware they support, I expect them to figure it out. If I change things, the responsibility becomes mine. Anything else is someone else's job...not Element's.

Re:This could work if the price is right

[AKAImBatman]

Ok, never mind. I admit it, I flubbed. He was saying that only the DIY software is not supported. The OS still is. Mentioning the warranty was what threw me. It made it sound like they simply wouldn't support your system any more.

Re:This could work if the price is right

[AKAImBatman]

I got it. Must be getting too late for me. :-/

Re:This could work if the price is right

[timeOday]

Does Apple support anything like apt-get? Do they even *offer* anything like it?

Re:This could work if the price is right

[afidel]

Dell will to the best of their ability if you have Silver or above support contracts.

Re:This could work if the price is right

[misleb]

And it's not like Microsoft won't help you fix a video driver or startup problem if you install AOL.

For free? I want to know how many of you actually call software vendors when the shit breaks. Last time I checked, they charge you big time for phone support. Or maybe it's because I am usually calling them on behalf of a business. Do home users generally get free support with Microsoft products?

-matthew

Re:This could work if the price is right

[AKAImBatman]

Does Apple support anything like apt-get? Do they even *offer* anything like it?

You can use Fink for APT packages, but to be perfectly honest, I'm trying to figure out how to get that mess off my hard drive. It's completely unnatural to the Mac environment. All the OS software I use is either from OpenDarwin's WebDAV server, or from Mac apps that integrate Open Source software (e.g. KHTML -> Safari, LAME -> MP3 Encoder, CDRecord -> ToastCD, VideoLAN, etc.).

Mac apps are usually installed by dragging the application from the mounted DMG file (a compressed file system) into the Applications folder. Much easier than apt-get or Windows installers.

Re:This could work if the price is right

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody ever claimed everything works fine on Linux. I can boot my 2.6.4 kernel, plug to USB devices in, and watch my memory leak all over the floor. (Hint, metaphor in use).
So I just decided to retreat to 2.4.24 and surf in style.
When I get enough experience points to achieve level 18, and cast 9th level kernel spells, I'll gladly debug the driver, patch it, and make the world safe for non-Redmond-ocracy.
Most PEBCAK issues are about learning curves. Your OSX and Doze are arithmatic, and Linux is calculus, and, short of dumbing it down a la Lindows, I don't see how you're going to alter the audience level.

Re:This could work if the price is right

[chez69]

that is not enough! 21 inches per frame!

Re:This could work if the price is right

[Crayon Kid]

Mac apps are usually installed by dragging the application from the mounted DMG file (a compressed file system) into the Applications folder. Much easier than apt-get or Windows installers.

That's because those Mac apps are archives organized to be fully self-contained, so they are ready to go instantly.

What I mean by "self-contained" is something somewhat similar (in certain points) to Zero Install.

If you want another analogy, imagine compiling a Linux application for i386, with --prefix=/opt/appname (which means etc/, share/ everything gets under /opt/appname for that app), and shipping the /opt/appname tarball with some special files in it that will alow the unpacker on the target systems to do some nifty tricks with it .

So it's not such a different thing from a .deb or a .rpm package, it just puts a different twist on the user experience.

Re:This could work if the price is right

[AKAImBatman]

If you want another analogy, imagine compiling a Linux application for i386, with --prefix=/opt/appname (which means etc/, share/ everything gets under /opt/appname for that app), and shipping the /opt/appname tarball with some special files in it that will alow the unpacker on the target systems to do some nifty tricks with it .

First, the .APP is a directory, not an archive. It has a complete structure inside of it for all files, libraries and dependencies. That means that there's no need to extract it.

Second, while you can most certainly put all your programs under /opt (the true-purple Unix way), you can't move them once they're installed. Any desktop associations and shortcuts will break as soon as you reorganize your folders. (e.g. /opt/openoffice gets moved to /opt/office/openoffice) The Mac always knows where the program is and is not affected by spatial relocation. Also, all program associations happen the moment the application exists on the drive, and they get disassociated the moment the application is emptied from the Trash.

So it's not such a different thing from a .deb or a .rpm package, it just puts a different twist on the user experience.

Unfortunately, RPMs and DEBs are not standalone programs. Instead, they are special archives that exist to build a dependency tree. They must be extracted to be installed, and without the package database, the ability to remove these files will not exist. Mac programs are 100% self contained. It's a bit hard for most people to grasp without trying it, but I really mean it when I say that nothing breaks on Macs. They just work. About the only thing you could do to a Mac (from the command line, running 'sudo') is to delete the Frameworks folders from the system library. That's about the only way to actually break the system. Otherwise it always maintains a consistent state by virtue of using discrete, self contained components.

Re:This could work if the price is right

[DebianRcksLindowsLie]

That's Lindows - with the full Debian hard-to-use user experience - and ONLY ON THEIR HARDWARE!

Apple experience?

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

which now strives to offer the Apple experience on PCs

They sell PCs with single-button mice, without floppy drives, at 3 times the price?

Re:Apple experience?

[ljavelin]

I still don't get the floppy drive complaints.

Floppys suck - obsolete capacity, obsolete reliability.

I've thrown all of my floppy disks away. None of my home-built machines have a floppy drive. I haven't bought software on floppy in about 8 years.

If I need to boot from another device, I'll boot via CD-ROM. If I need to move a small file: email. If I need to store a lot of files: CD-RW.

Next thing you'll be telling me is that you want dual floppy drives, one 3.5" and one 5.25".

Re:Apple experience?

[AKAImBatman]

I know you're trying to be funny, but I have a hard time picturing any Linux distribution as being similar to "the Apple experience". Modern Linux Desktops are getting close to a Windows/Unix fusion experience, but they seem to be completely lacking in the areas of:

* Ease of software installation
* Ease of dependency management
* Information consolidation (e.g. iTunes, Sherlock)
* Advanced rendering APIs (Quartz PDF renderer)
* Filesystem integration (double click on a DMG or ISO and it's automatically mounted)
* Filesystem features (move a program on a Mac, and the OS can still open files associated with it.)

Now I understand that these are not easy features to implement. They may not even be what the ION developers want in their system. But if that's the case, they shouldn't be extolling their systems as "like the Mac experience".

Re:Apple experience?

[geekoid]

I use them. They're great for moving small files around where email is not an option. easily rewriteable, and I can use them almost anyplace...except your house.

Ever try to email a document to Kinkos? Since I am looking for work, I keep a floppy with my resume on it where ever I go.

I also use them as boot disks when working on older computers.

There also more durable then CD's. I can frop a floppy, and not worry about scratches.

The floppy will go away, just need a few more years.

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I'd rather have knobs on my monitor so when I BSOD ( black screen of death ) I can at least try to adjust the brightness or do something instead of hold key combos and hoping it will fix the problem.

Re:Apple experience?

[RefriedBean]

What about USB keychains?

I never go anywhere without them. They are faster, more reliable, and have higher storage capacity.

They aren't expensive either..

Their life expectancies are also waay higher than floppies. Oh, and lets not forget that they don't get corrupted every time your two year old puts a fridge magnet close to it.

And it's also dead easy to boot from them on today's machines..

Really, floppies should've died a long time ago.

Thanks apple!

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

Floppies more durable than CDs?

The original demonstration of the Compact Disk involved the guy from Phillips dropping a CD on the ground, stamping on it, and then playing it.

Try that with a floppy!.

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ease of installation and dependencies?

Wow, you must have never heard of debian and apt-get!

Filesystem integration?

Kde and gnome can be configured to do automounting (heck with the proper not-hard-to-find app, windows does this)!

Information Consolidation?
Move them to the appropriate directories yourself (not hard)

And as for providing an 'Apple Expirience' I've heard from resellers and pissed off users NO THANKS!

Re:Apple experience?

[AKAImBatman]

Ease of installation and dependencies?

Wow, you must have never heard of debian and apt-get!

You'll have to explain to me how that's easier than dragging the application out of the DMG file into the Applications folder.

Filesystem integration?

Kde and gnome can be configured to do automounting (heck with the proper not-hard-to-find app, windows does this)!

* AKAImBatman double-clicks on ISO file on KDE desktop.

"Select a program from the list below"

Sorry, Apple's still got it.


Information Consolidation?
Move them to the appropriate directories yourself (not hard)

Huh? I'm supposed to move EBay, Airline tickets, Music Stores, AND my MP3 files to a directory? Wow. That's one cool filesystem you've got there.

And as for providing an 'Apple Expirience' I've heard from resellers and pissed off users NO THANKS!

Seeing as you're posting as Anonymous Cow Orker, you'll have to forgive me if I find you lacking in the credibility department.

Re:Apple experience?

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

Last time I checked most of the keychains aren't bootable on older computers.

As long as computers older than 3 years are still out there, we'll need floppies.

Re:Apple experience?

[PhiRatE]

> You'll have to explain to me how that's easier than dragging the application out of the DMG file into the Applications folder.

It's much easier. You don't need to know where to get the application, you don't need to go download the DMG file. Everything done for you, just type "apt-get install mozilla" and wait. Local mirrors of everything for added speed.

In addition, it takes care of dependencies (although I acknowledge that the Apple mechanism of "One-file-for-the-app" is a good alternate solution to this a lot of the time), and allows you to go and upgrade any or all installed applications without having to remember where you got it, go and find it, download it again etc etc.

Even further, you can do full searches of available applications using apt-cache, allowing you to quickly and easily locate, for example, and mp3 player or a video encoder immediately available for installation.

APT really is very very good. All kudos to Apple for many of their usability features, but in this one area Debians devotion to Free software has given it leverage which has proven difficult for other operating systems to match, a supply of almost all the software you'll ever need on your system, right here, right now.

Re:Apple experience?

[anethema]

(Score: 5, Funny)

Whats really funny is, thanks to the fact that you cannot get points from funny moderations, your karma is probably knocked down a good few pegs dispite having posted a +5 comment. Good ole slashdot moderation.

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

ok then challenge met.

apt-get install/remove 'program name' (wow that was difficult and it got my dependencies too!)

mount a cd/dvdrom is done typically fresh from install, iso you say? ok, I'll bite
http://themes.kde.org/content/show.php?conte nt=115 77

as for your bookmarks, I'd say, bookmark them
your mp3's DRAG them to your folders
Airline tickets, hmmmm.... how did you get those on your filesystem? Oh wait, web-based tickets, PRINT them or save the files.

and as for apple being nice, remember how they changed their licencing to kill off their clones because they could produce the same product cheaper?

Just about everything that people hate MS for, apple has done plenty of times in the past and nobody bothers to shrug.

check out this site
http://tellonapple.org/

Re:Apple experience?

[AaronD12]

Sorry to feed the troll, but since when can you put together a PC fast enough for video capture/DVD authoring with 8X DVD-RW drive, 17" flat CRT monitor, Firewire, USB 2.0, 80GB drive, Radeon 9200 32MB graphics, and a GREAT suite of video, photo, and DVD-authoring utilities for $333? (Example based on the eMac released today at $999.) If you could, maybe I would switch back to PCs.

Re:Apple experience?

[laird]

apt-get is indeed a wonderful thing, and I use and love it, but it's really more of a server/admin tool than an end user tool. To install an application using apt-get the user has to:
- know the magic command line incatation to install the app. This includes know its exact name.
- watch while hundreds of lines of scary text scroll by.
- if there's a mysterious error, ask a sysadmin to debug it.
- wonder where the application installed, or how to run it.

Me, I know the incantations for the app's I used most, and where to find the names of new app's, like knowing what's going on where, and can usually find installed app's because I know where to go digging. And I love being able to rapidly upgrade a whole farm of servers to a known software level using a single command.

But when my mom (who's an artist, and a compulsive computer user) installs an app, she wants to drag it from the CD into Applications, then double click on it. Or _perhaps_ run an installer, though those make her nervous because they do unpredictable things to her computer.

apt-get could form the basis for a really great application installer (for free app's), but it's not properly packaged yet.

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

there are frontends like synaptic and the lindows (or whatever it is now) click-and-run

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't bought software on floppy in about 8 years.

He bought software. Hah-hah!

Re:Apple experience?

[AKAImBatman]

It's much easier. You don't need to know where to get the application, you don't need to go download the DMG file. Everything done for you, just type "apt-get install mozilla" and wait. Local mirrors of everything for added speed.

-- Semi-dummy mode on --

Ok. So I see my desktop. Where do I type this? I have to launch "Terminal"? What's terminal? Umm... okay, I found it with a search. I've opened the terminal. I want FireFox 0.9, just released two days ago.

"apt-get install FireFox"

Ok, how do I launch this thing? What's that? It's in the "K" menu? Ok, (pokes around for 10 minutes, eventually logs out and logs back in, finds it under Internet/Web Browsers/FireFox). Hey, that's FireFox 0.8! I wanted 0.9 with the cool new Mac Metal look! Screw this:

Click Safari
http://www.mozilla.org
Download FireFox
(FireFox-0.9.dmg downloads, auto-mounts, and opens the folder)
Double-click on "FireFox"

Hey! This is a great application! I think I'll keep it!

Drags FireFox icon to Applications

-- Semi-dummy Mode Off --

You can't expect an average user to use the command line. There's simply no flow from one task to the next. "Ok, I installed it, now where is it?" Besides, how is he supposed to get "for-pay" software like Office X? With Office X, an end user can pop the CD in the drive and drag the applications to his Applications folder. Even APT isn't that simple.

Re:Apple experience?

[AKAImBatman]

-- User mode on --

apt-get install/remove 'program name' (wow that was difficult and it got my dependencies too!)

Duh. Where do I type this? I type it, but a bunch of my desktop icons keep turning blue. Are you sure that's the right thing to do? I can't even see what I'm typing!

(Assuming our valient user figures out that he has to run the Terminal program:)

Duh. "apt-get install Microsoft Office" doesn't work. Do I have to put my credit card in this slot here?

mount a cd/dvdrom is done typically fresh from install, iso you say? ok, I'll bite

Ok, now make it happen when I double click on it. And make it part of the default install so that I don't have to be "adding features" myself. And then show me one of those DMG (HPFS or UFS/FFS filesystem) files mount.


as for your bookmarks, I'd say, bookmark them
your mp3's DRAG them to your folders
Airline tickets, hmmmm.... how did you get those on your filesystem? Oh wait, web-based tickets, PRINT them or save the files.

I don't have them on my filesystem. Sherlock lets me take care of them. As well as bidding on EBay, or checking stocks. And iTunes lets me buy music, and automatically organizes my music. All these things happen as soon as I use my system for the first time. And I don't even need 500 programs to do it!

-- User mode off --

You forgot about Quartz rendering, automatic file associations, and other wonderful Mac features. And the Mac delivers these in a single, consistent platform. The features are not spread across three *different* desktops, the user *does not* need to custom build their system to add them, and all the features interact with one another in a consistent manner.

Do yourself a favor. Put your religous zealotry aside for a moment, and go try out a Mac. It really is a pleasent experience. You'll thank yourself for it.

Re:Apple experience?

[PretzelBat]

Floppies are great!!

How many ironclad excuses are there for missing homework assignments???

Student: "Um... sorry. My floppy disintegrated."

Teacher: "That's okay. It happens to all of us."

I will mourn the passing of this vital source of excuses. Soon I'm going to have to buy a dog. (or a Windows box!)

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

How does $999 = $333? Where can one get a PC with those specs for $333? I'm there.

Re:Apple experience?

[be-fan]

Or, you could just use KPackage? Pointy-click your way to installation. Still easier than downloading the DMG, unzipping it, finding the Apps folder, and copying the app over.

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

you could benefit from your own advice

How about 'thinking different' and reading things from independent sources instead of whatever apple feeds you?

Tried it, been there, done that...

I'd rather build myself a system with the same exact parts (sans ppc chip and proprietary crap, but you can thank apple's stranglehold on non-server ppc systems for that) at typically 1/3 the price.

besides, with the whole licencing issues who would want to? Linux won't care what I install it onto, and MS doesn't either, but Apple will sue the crap outta me. Why? because they wanna rip me off!

Re:Apple experience?

[Brandybuck]

And it's also dead easy to boot from them on today's machines.

I guess my nine month old computer is just too damned old. I need to get with the program and buy new hardware much more often that that.

I really wish it would though. It's a great replacement for floppy once you get the manufacturers agreed on a mass storage standard (some still don't). But how soon until USB 2.0 is obsolete? On my "old" system I still have to specifically enable "legacy" USB, otherwise known as 1.1. That's just silly.

Floppies may have been small, slow and easily damaged, but they were at least ubiquitous and standard for two decades. Even though we have newer technologies, we shouldn't be a wasteful society that throws out everything old. I've got an old laptop that makes a perfectly servicable portable terminal. It will not boot from CDROM, doesn't have USB, but does have a floppy. Some people would have me throw into into a landfill.

Re:Apple experience?

[Brandybuck]

You can't expect an average user to use the command line.

1) I can expect them do, because pre-1995, all average users DID use the command line, at least all of them but the Mac users. While not having to use the command line anymore may or may nti be a good thing, insisting that users can't handle it is erroneous.

2) If this ION distro is anything at all like the other Debian based newbie distros, then it will have a GUI frontend to apt-get that will make installation so effortless that the Mac way will seem like drudgery.

Re:Apple experience?

[tPassive]

Who needs floppys and mice anyways?

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow you think like the IT folks where my wife works/ All the floppy drives went away. Now she has a nice USB hub with her apple printer and and floppy drive plugged in. She learned long ago not to keep he important stuff on their server or her machine as the IT persons and there student help are prone to wipeing hard drives and loosing data on the server. They can't get at her floppies. They stay locked in her desk.

Re:Apple experience?

[InternationalCow]

Oh, come on. This "joke" should be modded down to flamebait. It's just asking to start the fruitless apple vs. pc discussion all over again.

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hm, I can get a Duron 1600 box, 256 MB DDR, 128 MB Radeon 9200, 8X DVD-RW, and 80 GB drive for $380 retail from my local screwdriver shop. True, it'd be more with a IEEE-1284 card and a new monitor (assuming you're one of the three computer buyers on Earth who needs either) but I'm pretty sure you could get to $330 with volume discounts. Freshmeat has several nonlinear editors and DVD burners, though I don't know enough to comment on them--do you find them all inadequate?

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

Screw that, sometimes I feel lucky if I can take a floppy out of the box and put it in the drive before it dies.

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't assume all users are as stupid as you.

Any basic computer usage must be learned. Any user that is going to take it upon himslf to learn by himself is not going to go through the absurd example you posted. Anyone else is going to ask enough questions and not going to go through the absurd example you posted.

I just clicked the CD icon and guess what happened. It mounted the cd, opened Konqueror and displayed the contents. Amazing. I clicked on the file and it magically started to play the video. I never set up a file association, so either it was automatic or someone snuck in while I was at work and set it up for me. OMG, I clicked on an mp3 and it started playing. It's the devil's work, I tell ya. Wait, oh crap, I clicked on an iso and it asked for an app. Kde can't handle that, Gnome does.

I am not going to drop at least $800 to try a Mac. I don't need Photoshop.

Re:Apple experience?

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

No it isn't. Not all distros include KPackage as part of their default install nor optional package. In fact, I think I've never heard of KPackage before you mentioned it in this post.

People are used to using a browser and clicking things to download them. Most DMGs (internet enabled DMGs) now mount by themselves and extract the program and leave it in place automatically. As for copying to the Apps folder, it's assumed that the Apps folder is a place the user will learn about fairly quickly seeing that double-clicking the hard drive will reveal it and the hard drive would logically be the best place to start when you first start out on a new computer because your hard drive is where everything is stored.

Besides, who said you needed to copy it to the apps folder? I actually have some apps that I leave on my desktop. No, not shortcuts, but the entire app since it's more convienent for me.

Re:Apple experience?

[kcelery]

The three main usage of a PC is:

1) Type an invoice.

2) Type a receipt.

3) Count all the money you have.
They all fit comfortably in a floppy. The rest goes to the entertainment department which requires a CD. But that's not too important.

Re:Apple experience?

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

(BTW: I primarily use a Powerbook.)

1) I've been using computers since the IBM XT was considered current. I taught myself batch scripting back then (1986-ish). Now I script primarily in perl and tcsh. And while I'm great at using the command line (a term is the first thing I open when I boot up my machine; heck, I even open most apps from the App folder using the command line), I still don't get apt.

Why?

Sure, your example of "apt-get install mozilla" looks easy. In fact, it's about all I've been able to install with apt. (Oh yeah, pretend my env is still Debian 3) Where do I learn about all the others? How come dselect's quit command seems to not quit immediately? How do I forcequit dselect when I accidentally selected some packages I didn't want? (current method: alternate tty and kill) Where do I get a package list? Is it supposed to be "apt-get install libtar" or "apt-get install libtar-1.2.11" or "apt-get install libtar-1.2" or something else?

It's easy once you know what's there for you to install, but for those who are new to apt, the amount of knowledge required to know what to put after "apt-get install" is akin to me learning .NET, neither of which I have time for.

2) So, uh, what GUI frontend to apt would you recommend? Seriously. I've got a blank x86 box downstairs and I'll give Linux another shot if I can find a fast/minimalist/easy-to-manage distro.

Re:Apple experience?

[strider_starslayer]

you take the 'ultra-dummy mode' for the linux, but not for the mac, allow me to fill in the mac bit with equal 'ultra-dummyness'

click Safari:
-What's safari, where is that? (opens several instances of EVERY other thing on there menu bar, eventually mannages to figure out which one looks like a compass)
http://www.mozilla.org:
-Where do I type that, into google, which link do I want (eventually navigates google to mozilla's homepage)
Download FireFox (FireFox-0.9.dmg downloads, auto-mounts, and opens the folder)
-should be simple enough, as long as they haven't turned off automount, since were assuming an idiot user, they haven't Double-click on "FireFox"
-Which one do I doubleclick on, no, no, no, no, ahh there (by now has every single file into the DMG open!)
Hey! This is a great application! I think I'll keep it!
Drags FireFox icon to Applications
-Where is applciations? No I don't see it, what do you mean put my finder into collum mode, what, where, the three collums, ok now I see it, scrollbars? (After much instruction finally locates there application folder and drags the contents of mozilla there)

Two days later:
-I can't find mozilla! (user has never bothered copying to there menu bar, and dosen't know how to locate applications again!)

Note: I have worked in technical support for macs, this is EXACTLY the type of call we end up fielding (except for HP printer drivers!)

Re:Apple experience?

[RedBear]

I agree. APT really is very very good. For administrators, and people who basically know how to use their computer. So is urpmi. And portage. Etc. But of course it all depends on your sources. It depends on you knowing how to open a terminal, find specific sources that are good and add them to your list of sources. And of course these sources don't normally have any commercial software available. Is there an "apt-get purchase adobephotoshopcs", which will automatically resolve dependencies by purchasing and downloading CrossOver Office? I didn't think so.

APT-like mechanisms are awesome for keeping up to date with the core system and utilities. For regular users who want to install specific commercial software and things that just came out yesterday, it doesn't work. Face it. What you're saying is that apt-get is great, if you're willing to give up on having access to any software in the commercial world.

It's immensely easier to go to Google, type in "download 'Fax alert installer'" to find the software, download the compressed DMG (which if you download with Safari is automatically decompressed, mounted on the desktop and opened for your convenience) and drag the new application into your Applications folder. It's so easy it's ridiculous. Want to uninstall it? Go to the Applications folder and drag the app to the Trash.

Apple has really given people the best of both worlds. There is a point-and-click interface for updating system software (Software Update) which will automatically check for new software and tell the user when new updates are ready to be downloaded. A couple of clicks, wait, reboot if necessary, and you're up to date. Individual third-party applications are another matter, but many of them I have encountered seemingly have an APT-like mechanism built-in! How cool is that? When you start up the app, it runs a check and notifies you if there is an update, and with one click you can start the update downloading!

Seriously, for the average desktop user, Apple has got this software thing down pretty good. Let me give you an extreme case of how easy things are on Mac OS X. I just wiped my hard drive recently and installed Panther (10.3). From an external FireWire mirror drive, I drag-n-dropped all the old applications that I cared about. From my old Preferences folder, I copied over the preference files for the relevant applications. Within a few hours, it was as if nothing had happened, besides the fact that I'd left a lot of cruft behind and the system was faster. All the applications started up with preferences intact. Moving each application was a matter of picking up one file and dropping it in a new folder.

If I'd gone the Archive & Install route, it would have been much easier. Having been corrupted by Windows over the years, I always prefer a clean start.

To conclude: APT and its brethren have their place, and from what I can see they are basically already in use on the system side. If your applications don't support auto-updating, complain to the developer. Linux could seriously use a similar method for installing those peripheral applications that will never be found in any apt-sources list. There's room for both ways of doing things.

I used to hate Macs. Now, you can add me to that list of people who use Linux but would have a Mac as my main machine if I could afford it. It's just so insanely easy to get things done on a Mac. And that includes installing software and keeping the system up to date.

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, sounds like a great IT shop - they wipe drives and fail to back up servers. Yahoo! Sounds like their IT budget is close to zero. Or should be.

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

Some very new PCs (made within the past 8 years or so) permit booting from CD!!! You might want to ask the tech support guy at CompUSA. It sounds like he can help you learn things.

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, Kpackage is part of KDE. It's right there on the main menu.

Re:Apple experience?

[imr]

For the purpose of my own enlightenment, can you develop this 2 points (i cant afford a mac to find by myself what are the difference with apt or urpmi):
* Ease of software installation
* Ease of dependency management

As for this point, it wouldnt take long to implement it through kde, i could easily add it to my right click contectual menu and without putting mount in the users right (i would ask for an admin password). How is it done on the mac? Is the mounting of isos separated from the regular mount?
* Filesystem integration (double click on a DMG or ISO and it's automatically mounted)

I don't understand how this is a feature? I don't need to move programs, please again, share some light:
* Filesystem features (move a program on a Mac, and the OS can still open files associated with it.)

Re:Apple experience?

[Simon Carr]

It's much easier. You don't need to know where to get the application, you don't need to go download the DMG file. Everything done for you, just type "apt-get install mozilla" and wait. Local mirrors of everything for added speed.

I guess that's perception, of course. That's much easier for us(geeks). But a few problems come up.

• If apt breaks (and it does on occasion) you're left with a mess to untangle.
  
• If apt runs over your dependancies, see above.
  
• If the deb is unavailable for some reason, which is rare, you're going to have to hunt down the software anyway.
  
• If the deb is a version lower than you require, see above, or venture into moving to the unstable branch, which has a whole other host of complications associated with it.
  
• Once you've installed the apt, there's the small matter of finding what you just installed. Easy in most cases, but this would be a big mystery to someone who wasn't invested enough in computing knowledge to hunt down.
  

So yeah, apt is wicked, but compared to opening a DMG file with two clicks, then moving the contents with one click and drag to the Applications folder, it's way too abstract for most people.

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

Any distro that ships KDE probably ships kpackage.. it's nice, but I perfer Ark Linux's kynaptic

Re:Apple experience?

[leinhos]

You mean that we'll need floppies for old computers. There's absolutely no reason to have a floppy drive in a new computer. If you need to read a floppy from a legacy system, get a USB floppy drive (an only plug it in once every 3 years).

I still can't believe it when I see someone with a new, high end laptop with a built-in floppy drive (not even a removable media bay drive)!

Re:Apple experience?

[Issue9mm]

Synaptic is a fine GUI. You should try it.

-9mm-

Re:Apple experience?

[AKAImBatman]

you take the 'ultra-dummy mode' for the linux, but not for the mac, allow me to fill in the mac bit with equal 'ultra-dummyness'

No, the user is of about the same level in both cases. For example, the user did eventually get apt-get to work. It just didn't have what he wanted. And being an experienced user myself, *I* sometimes wonder where my programs went after an install. Especially in KDE 3.1 where the menu doesn't update until I've logged out and logged back in. Many older packages wouldn't even create an icon. The software would be magically installed, but there'd be no way of finding it. On the Mac, there's a clear chain of events. I click on the download, a progress bar appears, and then the DMG folder opens (usually with nice graphical instructions in the background).

-should be simple enough, as long as they haven't turned off automount, since were assuming an idiot user, they haven't Double-click on "FireFox" -Which one do I doubleclick on, no, no, no, no, ahh there (by now has every single file into the DMG open!)


People who are 100% new to computers are just going to have these sorts of troubles. Just be *glad* you don't have to support apt-get:

Tech: "Type 'apt-get install FireFox' into the terminal."
Cust: "Ok: 'aptdashgetspaceinstallspaceFireFox'. It says 'Command not found'"
Tech: "What did you type?"
Cust: "I typed exactly what you told me, 'apt dash get space install space FireFox'"
Tech "That's odd..."

-I can't find mozilla! (user has never bothered copying to there menu bar, and dosen't know how to locate applications again!)

Do yourself a favor. Have the user drag the Applications folder onto the Dock. It will make a nice psuedo-start button for him where he can find all of his programs.

Re:Apple experience?

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

So when the cd drive goes or it's part of the actual problem, you're SOL? Sounds fair to me.

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see what the big deal with an internal floppy drive is? They cost like $0.45 US

Re:Apple experience?

[blackmonday]

I like Linux a lot, but to say that apt-get is easier than Apple's way is why Linux will never catch up. After 2 years, I still can't get my wireless network running with any of the latest distributions. Can't do apt-get without internet. The powerbook recognized my airport instantly and with no hassles. Plus, let's talk about the applications themselves, not just the methods to install. Can I get an iMovie clone with apt-get? Garage Band? This is why people are buying macs now, not for the web browser.

Re:Apple experience?

[AKAImBatman]

For the purpose of my own enlightenment, can you develop this 2 points (i cant afford a mac to find by myself what are the difference with apt or urpmi):

When you go to a software download page, you download a file called a "DMG". This file is a filesystem-in-a-file which automatically mounts on your desktop. i.e. User clicks, sees download bar, DMG mounts and opens folder.

Once the folder is open, the icons are usually arranged so that they are in line with a background image. The background image usually says stuff like "Drag this to your Applications folder."

The user is able to run the application out of the DMG, or drag it anywhere on their drive. Just by the fact that the application exists (no installer!) all file associations will be updated to make it the primary or optional secondary program.

As for this point, it wouldnt take long to implement it through kde, i could easily add it to my right click contectual menu and without putting mount in the users right (i would ask for an admin password). How is it done on the mac? Is the mounting of isos separated from the regular mount?

Simply double-click on the ISO, and a CD icon will appear on your desktop. It looks exactly as if you had inserted a CD into the drive. Root privileges are *not* required.

I don't understand how this is a feature? I don't need to move programs, please again, share some light:
* Filesystem features (move a program on a Mac, and the OS can still open files associated with it.)

Since the Mac makes the program appear as a file, I can move it anywhere on my disk and still have all the associations set up correctly. A common example of this is organizing the Applications folder. Let's say that I want to move all my games into one folder and all my web browsers into another. I can rearrange them by dragging them where I want them to go. Nothing (absolutely NOTHING) will break by this procedure. Even if you have a shortcut on your dock, it will still launch the program correctly. Compare that to trying to organize your "Program Files" directory after the fact. Or move all your linux software into categories under "/opt".

Re:Apple experience?

[Damek]

Yeah, if you know how to use the APT tool, and the specific software you want has been packaged up for your distribution and put on a repository that you have listed in your apt config file, and you know roughly the name of the package, it's really easy to get a package.

Those assumptions not having been met, it's much easier to download the software as you find it and just run it.

Apt makes things easier for linux admins. For those of us who aren't linux admins, the DMG solution is much more elegant.

Of course, DMG files abound because Mac OS X is a very popular OS. If there was at least one similarly popular distribution of linux, most software would have prepackaged versions for that distribution. Kinda like how most linux projects are available as source, binary tar.gz, and then a .deb and a couple .rpm's for Mandrake, SuSE and Red Hat/Fedora... So as time goes on, and a couple of distributions keep emerging as definitely good desktop options, more and more software will become readily available for them and linux software installation will be as easy.

People just need to get used to the idea that your OS is a specific distribution, and not generically "Linux". You can't just download software not meant for your specific OS and expect running it to be easy. It's easier between different linux-based OSes than between Linux and Windows, or Linux and Mac OS X, but it has to be seen as the same problem. One shouldn't expect software not available for, say, Mandrake 9.0, to be easy to use on Mandrake 9.0, any more than one should expect software not available for Windows 2000 to be easy to run on Windows 2000.

Re:Apple experience?

[cubic6]

You can download and run software on a Mac by downloading a .DMG file, double clicking on it, and double clicking on the program icon. You can install software by following that same procedure, but opening your Applications folder and dragging the program icon from one window to the other. Uninstallation consists of selecting the icon and pressing Delete. No command line, no typing. I don't know much about dependency management, but I'm guessing that it isn't a big problem. Most apps probably include the specific small libraries they need, and only depend otherwise on Carbon or Cocoa (OS provided).

ISO and DMG mounting is basically transparent. You double click the file, and it shows up as a folder on your desktop, just like old MacOS did with CDs. A lot of downloadable software uses DMG images (which are compressed) to distribute software, since they're so easy to use.

The program moving isn't just moving. If you get a trendy new Solitare game (yeah, I know...) and you want to send it to your buddy Steve, you send him one file over iChat, he double clicks it, and the game runs. It works on the folder level too. I heard a story about a guy who walked into an electronics store, plugged his iPod into one of the demo macs, copied the Microsoft Office folder to the iPod, and walked away with a perfectly functional illegal copy of Office.

Again, this is all my personal understanding of OS X operation, gained through playing in the computer lab. If someone who actually owns a Mac can clarify any of these, go for it.

Re:Apple experience?

[AshtangiMan]

More durable? I have a computer still with the new fangled floppy drive (3.5). They are more reliable than the slightly older 5.25" disks, but not than CD. I have CDs that are scratched quite noticeably, and my computers have no problem reading them. But, like you, I was carrying my resume around on floppy disk, and experienced failures quite regularly. I took to carrying three disks around, each with the same info on it. On the day that all three failed I gave up and started using my USB keychain drive. I've never had a problem with it.

It is of course a matter of personal preference, but in my experience floppy's are in reliability terms, one step above zips.

Re:Apple experience?

[zeroprime]

Apt and commercial software... Sounds like the Lindows Click-and-Run

Re:Apple experience?

[scragz]

Hey, that's FireFox 0.8! I wanted 0.9 with the cool new Mac Metal look! Screw this:

The main flaw in your argument is that Firefox 0.9 exists for Macintosh.

When Firefox 0.9 is out for the Mac, it will also be out for Debian.

Re:Apple experience?

[AKAImBatman]

When Firefox 0.9 is out for the Mac, it will also be out for Debian.

Sure, it will be out for Debian. On the Mozilla download site. It will take the APT-GET guys a few days (or longer) to get it up to date. I was pointing out that users want to grab the latest software from the source, Going through a third party is a level of indirection that is unnecessary and unwanted by most users.

Re:Apple experience?

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

It looks pretty good from the only screenshot (http://freshrpms.net/apt/synaptic/synaptic.png) I've been able to find. However, the picture looks like something screwed over some UI guidelines with the strange tab/button thing.....though it's probably GTK that's doing it.

It'd be really nice if in addition to all those descriptions, they also listed the command line calls to do the install. That'd actually be really useful......

Anyhow, I'll give it a shot this weekend. Thanks

Re:Apple experience?

[imr]

Thx a lot for the reply. I give you a personal +1 informative.
And if you have time enough:

DMG:
what happens when a library is missing?

the program as a file:
How does the system keeps track of dependancies, if you move around libs that are needed by an other program? a registry? an on the fly ldconfig?
is the file you move around really the program, or a representation of it (the real program being stored elsewhere)?
(and i still fail to see the use of being able to move and organise as i want programs. Under linux, i can even ignore where the programs are, or know where they are, i just move and organise the icons that represent it, whatever the desktop manager i use. As a matter of fact, as a user, i'm released from having to manage programs.)

Re:Apple experience?

[AKAImBatman]

what happens when a library is missing?

Nearly all dependencies are packed inside the .APP file. Generally only system libraries are made into Frameworks. I've never had a situation where a dependency was missing.

How does the system keeps track of dependancies, if you move around libs that are needed by an other program? a registry? an on the fly ldconfig?

Again, since everything is in the .APP, it goes with the program. Frameworks are registered by the system in a similar fashion to applications. The .framework folders usually get placed in the System folder with read-only permissions.

is the file you move around really the program, or a representation of it (the real program being stored elsewhere)?

When you move the program, you're really moving the whole thing. My understanding is that the OS hooks onto the i-node instead of the filename. This allows it to find files no matter where they get moved. It's kind of cool how many programs allow you to move a file while you have it open, then write to the new location as if nothing happened.

(and i still fail to see the use of being able to move and organise as i want programs. Under linux, i can even ignore where the programs are, or know where they are, i just move and organise the icons that represent it, whatever the desktop manager i use. As a matter of fact, as a user, i'm released from having to manage programs.)

Under Linux and Windows, you still have to manage your start menu icons. And if your kid comes along and moves a bunch of files, all your shortcuts, associations, and often the programs themselves are screwed up. Under OS X, you manage the Applications folder. If you want to launch a program, you open the Applications folder and find it. A psudeo-start button can be made by dragging the Applications folder to the Dock. In this way, all your programs really are in the start menu!

"Shortcuts" on the dock aren't really shortcuts per say. Instead, you simply make the icon stay in the dock when it isn't running. All running programs show up in the Dock.

FYI, the Dock is like the Windows taskbar on steriods. Instead of organizing a bunch of every shrinking titles, it shrinks a bunch of super-hires icons. As you pass your mouse over the dock, the icons get larger so you can see what program is what.

Any other questions? :-)

Re:Apple experience?

[zeroprime]

...and since the .deb's will be supplied by the manufacturer, who says it won't be out on time?

Re:Apple experience?

[zeroprime]

A minor problem with this however is that if said kid rearranges/deletes files in your 'start menu' this time the programs are gone and not just their links!

Re:Apple experience?

[imr]

So it's a system that rely a lot on static libs, right? (for not having too many .framework needed)

And if your kid comes along and moves a bunch of files, all your shortcuts, associations, and often the programs themselves are screwed up.
Nope since i don't use windows. All i can say is that my child can't move any app or any important file. period. nor can my parents in their home btw. Nor can I as a user.
When i want to install a program, i do "urpmi name" and that's it. It's installed,period, i don't have to know where or what.
And moving a shortcut wont affect anything since it calls the binary which is still in the PATH.
Yet, i can see the beauty of the system you describe (like pretty much everything apple design since the apple II, man! did I lick that store windows!) and see how it could be used in the home directory of users for personnal apps.
They do get the users right!

Re:Apple experience?

[AKAImBatman]

You can't delete files on the Mac without them first going to the Trash can. So it would be pretty hard for junior to delete anything.

Re:Apple experience?

[Perky_Goth]

i've been hearing about dselect for months, but i never even saw it running... anyway, whatever it is, debian is working on replacing it.
and apt is easy to use, just two or 3 commands necessary.
of course, it's much simpler with the GUI, and for that there is synaptic and kpackage.

Re:Apple experience?

[Perky_Goth]

of course it can be done, there is synaptic and kpackage which are very nice.
about commercial software, you're welcome to give it a try :P

Re:Apple experience?

[Perky_Goth]

all you are asking is a little window to paste repository links, but the underlying system is good and already there...

Re:Apple experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

But they're worth about -$120.00. That means they're costing you a lot!

Re:Apple experience?

[HitByASquirrel]

haha, remember back in the day when CD's would bend, and not bend back?

Any ideas?

[metalhed77]

The distribution is Debian based, and built on top of another outstanding distribution which we are not a liberty to name just yet.

Anyone have any i deas what distro this is most likely based on?

Re:Any ideas?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tinfoil Hat Linux

Re:Any ideas?

[christurkel]

Lindows. It has a special apt-repository and everything.

Re:Any ideas?

[Anonymous Coward]

BSD.

Re:Any ideas?

[coder101]

My guess would be SUSE, since they are KDE based...

Re:Any ideas?

[Neo-Rio-101]

Actually Lindows had some kind of sticker for Lindows accredited hardware... much like the "Designed for Windows XP" stickers you see on most OEM computers.

I went to a trade show where Lindows made an appearance. In their display PC line up, amongst the hand-built beige boxes, they had a laptop there which was obviously designed with Windows in mind (It had two Windows keys), but they went and stickered over the Windows sticker with the Lindows one!

"I can't believe it's not Windows!"

On another note, I just found out that Lindows has it's own Knoppix now. "Lindows Smile"!

Re:Any ideas?

[zsau]

Lindows

Re:Any ideas?

[Anonymous Coward]

Xandros. In his reply of question 8 in the interview he did not mention Xandros. Xandros is Debian based.

Re:Any ideas?

[linwoes]

First thouught in my head was. hmm i wonder if this is the Lindows rename strategy? Probably not but it sounds like a creative way to me.

Secret developers

[winkydink]

We don't publicly state who and where our developers are for obvious reasons.

Ummm... you don't have any?

Re:Secret developers

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha - mod up parent! Funny!

Re:Secret developers

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course we have developers. It is just that they are all hot Linux babes and we would like to avoid the extreme amounts of sexual harassment that would occur if slashdoters found out where these women worked.

Re:Secret developers

[r_j_prahad]

We don't publicly state who and where our developers are for obvious reasons.

They're SCO employees?

Re:Secret developers

[Vaevictis666]

Sure they do. But they're all in India. :(

Re:Secret developers

[iplayfast]

Probably because they don't want developers to be inundated with calls from hardware vender's saying pick me pick me.

(PS. I love KDE, it spellchecks this form as I type. Who says Linux isn't innovative).

Re:Secret developers

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

The developers are being hired out from the Phantom Game Console company.

Re:Secret developers

[really?]

Welcome to 1986; "Thunder" used to do that on my 1040ST.
Yet, KDE _is_ more advanced, as there is still no decent Windows solution...

Re:Secret developers

[platipusrc]

Hehe I don't know about you, but I'm using KDE and not Linux (and I still get the speel checking!! except for speel didn't show up as a misspelled word!), so what do they have to do with each other ;)

Main Entry: speel
Pronunciation: 'spE(&)l
Function: verb
Etymology: origin unknown
chiefly Scottish : CLIMB

D'oh!

Re:Secret developers

[Anonymous Coward]

Shame it doesn't grammar check too. Those darn apostrophe's.

Re:Secret developers

[2nd Post!]

I say Linux isn't innovative :P

Mac has had that spell check feature since 2001 (and earlier with the OS X beta) and even earlier in NeXTStep since 1986.

How long has KDE had spellcheck? How long has KDE existed?

Re:Secret developers

[theTerribleRobbo]

... hardware vender's ...

Doesn't look like it works all that well.

Re:Secret developers

[Black Perl]

Mac has had that spell check feature since 2001 (and earlier with the OS X beta) and even earlier in NeXTStep since 1986.

No it doesn't. Re-read carefully what he's saying: KDE will spell-check the Slashdot Post Comment Form in the browser. I'm pretty sure Safari and MacIE don't do this.

Re:Secret developers

[2nd Post!]

Safari has the following in the Edit->Spelling menu of Safari:
Spelling...
Check Spelling
Check Spelling as you type

How is that not spell checking the post comment form in the browser? Safari has it; Omniweb had it before Safari existed. NeXTStep had it before OS X existed.

Linux with usage support?

[rdsmith4]

And it ships on hardware?!? A novel concept! This will be THE breakthrough! 2004 is indeed the Year of the Penguin!

Oh wait, you have to pay for it.

Damn.

Great

[JoeShmoe950]

This is perfect. Linux does have other problems, I must admit. But, hardware was a huge one. For example, the first time I installed debian, it took me forever to figure out how to get X how to use anything but VGA. Once I figured out my way around linux, it became easy, but it still took my a while to figure out how to install my graphic's card driver and such. Having default hardware, where they know what drivers to use, etc. will take a lot of scare and hastle away from the user. For example, if Debian new that every user used an NVidia GeForce, they'd probably bundle the GeForce driver as default. Standard hardware will solve many headaches. All the power to them!

Re:Great

[Ravadill]

Debian ect. don't bundle the Nvidia/ATi driver already because it's not opensource, and distros want to stick 100% opensource!11 on their product can't if there's a binary driver included. Seems a bit stupid to me, I personally couldn't care less if a distro was only 99% opensource as long as I had the best hardware drivers (closed or otherwise) bundled with it.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but dont debian have several different available versions of the distro, one of which is 'pure' and the other(s) for ones which may have licensing issues etc?

I could alway sbe wrong though since my only experience with debian was not getting it to boot :P

Re:Great

[MrLizardo]

I just went into dselect and did a search for nvidia. Their glx driver and kernel driver sources were listed, along with precompiled kernel modules for different kernels. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and bet that you don't use Debian. If you do you'd have heard of non-free, where all of the non open source software resides.

-Mr. lizard

The "Apple experience"?

[ObviousGuy]

I thought the Apple experience was related to having a solid, well-functioning OS and a very friendly user interface.

Little did I know that it was actually about having hardware limitations put upon me.

Learn something new everyday!

Re:The "Apple experience"?

[00420]

The hardware limitations are part of the reason Apple offers such a solid, well-functioning OS.

Re:The "Apple experience"?

[Anonymous Coward]

The stability of Linux puts lie to that claim.

Re:The "Apple experience"?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's damned funny. The stupidity of that statement demonstrates that while Linux is creeping ever closer to the quality user experience that OSX users enjoy the real story is in how it's advocates are leaps and bounds ahead of it in their own quest to match, and then surpass if possible, the arrogance of the average Mac user.

Bravo!

Re:The "Apple experience"?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it doesn't. It is quite possible that they are stable for different reasons.

Re:The "Apple experience"?

[AaronD12]

The hardware limitations are part of the reason Apple offers such a solid, well-functioning OS.

Exactly! If PCs would ditch their circa-1981 BIOS and architecture, it could be the ideal platform.

But, even today's Pentium IV systems still have the BIOS call for turning on and off the cassette drive. Why? God forbid we lose backwards compatibility with our libraries of GWBASIC applications on cassette!

Ha!!!

[sethadam1]

You're almost definitely going to be modded "flamebait" or "troll," but if I had mod points today, you'd get a big fat "+1 Funny" from me.

Cheers!

Re:Ha!!!

[metacosm]

Yeah, this will be just like apple. I am not even an apple FAN and I have to come to apple's defense here.

#1. Apple's hardware is actually unique, it isn't whitebox PC's trying to be unique. Apple produces the unique units and charges for them.

#2. Apple's OS (in this case OS is defined as complete default install, not BSD underpinnings) is actually unique, it isn't linux with a couple bolt on additions trying to be unique. Apple produces the unique OS and charges for it.

-- I can see them getting away with calling it 'similar to the apple experience' MAYBE, but they better keep the prices very sane.

-- Also, if the OS is open-source, how are they going to stop redistribution, (former) SuSE like control panel + installer?

-- Do you really want a linux distro tied to the hardware? What if you want to add (X) piece of hardware, one of the advantages of whiteboxes is being able to go pick it up and install it. If thier OS is tied to the hardware, they probably want you to purchase all hardware upgrades via them. (sounds pricey!)

-- Maybe I am being silly, but trying to control an open-hardware platform, and an open-source operating system and core software seems like a setup for failure. Is it?

Well at any rate, good luck to them. The real world is the best test of such a concept.

Lesson Learned!

[women]

I'm glad that Element Computer decided to name their distro ION as opposed to the more logical but lawsuit prone Macinux.

Re:Lesson Learned!

[Game Genie]

Hmm...
Linux + Windows = Lindows
Linux + Mac = Lac ??

-

Re:Lesson Learned!

[Achoi77]

It could have been worse.

It could have been Minix. ;-)

Re:Lesson Learned!

[Inominate]

iLinux?

Re:Lesson Learned!

[uhoreg]

LiMac? Licintosh?

Re:Lesson Learned!

[Anonymous Coward]

If Lindash is confusingly similar to Windows, then surely ION is confusingly similar to OSX.

Apple experience ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple experience

Definition : When an airhead comes into contact with over-priced hardware.

Re:Apple experience ...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's funny, you humorless morons.

Not really possible with X86 hardware

[Steepe]

Yea, so they sell linux to work with hardware they choose. Might work if KDE was the bells and whistles pretty desktop that OSX is, but its not.

Linux folks for the most part want to upgrade their hardware, with what they want. No cheapo onboard soundcards and vid cards, etc.

It MIGHT nitch in web/email only systems, but how many of those can you sell to grandma when wally world sells HP's for $499 or less.

I love any idea that promotes linux, but I just don't see this working anywhere.

Re:Not really possible with X86 hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you lack the vision to make it work.

The point is that this isn't targetted at 'Linux folks for the most part'.

Ignore it if it doesn't interest you, but that does mean you're not going to be the one raking in the cash by opening up a new market.

Hold up

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope the machines they sell hold up better than their web server is right now

But ...

[Snoopy77]

the problem with Macs was that while they performed better on the whole, they were more expensive.

ION Linux may guarentee that the software and hardware will play together nicely but you've gotta pay for it. I've never had a problem getting Linux (RedHat, Debian, Gentoo) to work well on standard Dell machines or on machines I've built from various parts.

Nice idea but prebuilt Linux machines don't have a big market and I don't see that ION Linux is going to change this.

Re:But ...

[Spoing]

1. Nice idea but prebuilt Linux machines don't have a big market and I don't see that ION Linux is going to change this.

I've built all of my desktop x86 systems, and tweak just about everything. I have installed a few different distributions on my Dell lattitude CPx.

As the Dell laptop is getting long in the tooth, I've considered getting a new laptop, and to be honest my ranking is currently;

1. 1. Blank laptop (but based on the same hardware as one of the current Dell models)
   2. A name-brand laptop, likely not a Dell (and wipe out Windows)
   3. Have someone else do #1 (Element) or #2 (EmperorLinux) for me.

So, if even I am seriously considering buying from them someone who doesn't like to tweak things as much is that much more likely.

Re:But ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea since you can get a Linux box from Wal-Mart for under 500 dollars and all it's hardware seems to work.

Re:But ...

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

Oh man.....

Keeping in mind that your choice of hardware is ultimately yours, I personally would like to express my opinion that buying a Dell is a bad idea. I used to do tech support for UC Berkeley. And sure, while most of the problems we see are Windows related, a significant number of Dell laptops come by with hardware problems. Badly designed plastic shells for the latest wide screen laptops. Ethernet ports that somehow lose the ability to respond properly to the system. Battery recalls. Power adapter recalls. Media bay latchs that no longer latch.

If you're going to buy a laptop that you want to have stay in one piece, don't buy a Dell.

Heck, if you want to support Linux indirectly, order a Thinkpad from IBM seeing as they have done a lot for the Linux community. See the extra cost as an investment in your hardware lifespan and a company that helps improve Linux.

I can't recall a laptop brand that has demonstrated worse reliability than a Dell.

Re:But ...

[Spoing]

Thanks for the info.

1. Keeping in mind that your choice of hardware is ultimately yours, I personally would like to express my opinion that buying a Dell is a bad idea.

It was $225 (corporate excess), got almost 2 years out of it, so I'm not complaining. Dropped it a couple months ago and cracked the hinge...still works well enough, but not ideal (little wobbly).

If you have specific recommendations beyond a Thinkpad or "Do not get Dell", let me know. Dell sells a whole-hell of a lot of laptops, so they will tend to show up more often -- defective or not.

As short hand, I tend to divide laptops into ~4 groups (from memory);

Top - IBM, Sony (most), Toshiba (most), Apple, ...

Middle - The remaining Sonys and Toshibas followed by Dell, HP/Compaq, Gateway

OEM - The non-brand name laptops from the makers of the brand-name laptops listed above. Maybe an Asus or Sagar.

Anyone else? Not worth considering.

Details on relationships between name-brand and OEMs. Few companies make laptops for themselves anymore.

I do not trust HP/Compaq because Compaq tended to do goofy things with their hardware and I'm not sure which way the systems were tainted (did HP or Compaq 'win'?). Sony does odd things too, though most of those are to support extra features that -- if they work with Linux -- would be interesting. Toshiba is good, standard, nice.

Thinkpad - Yep. Very nice. I'd rather not spend $3,000~ for a properly equipped one though.

Kind of Pricey

[hng_rval]

Is it just me, or do these computers cost more than an equivalent Dell model?

Why not buy a Dell, format with Linux, good to go.

I guess they install Linux for free, and provide you with some sort of support, but if you really need that why not just use Windows?

Or, install Debian - it's getting easier every day.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[NanoGator]

"Why not buy a Dell, format with Linux, good to go."

Well if you want to download several install CDs, try to hunt down drivers, and edit a bunch of .CONF files, yeah you could do that.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[Takara]

Well if you want to download several install CDs, try to hunt down drivers, and edit a bunch of .CONF files, yeah you could do that.

You mean like everyone else does? Interesting concept.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[NanoGator]

"You mean like everyone else does? Interesting concept."

You'll notice that 'everyone' isn't a whole hell of a lot of people.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[transiit]

You spend so much time denouncing Linux. Why is this?

Having read through your comment history, you make it very clear that you're pretty die-hard when it comes to windows (minus some dabbling in linux). So what do you care?

Or is this the same mindset that makes all usenet windows-advocacy groups full of linux advocates and all linux-advocacy groups full of windows advocates?

Are you so egomaniacal to think that you're turning people away from the evil path, or can you just not resist the urge to throw in your opinion no matter what? (I'm guessing from your 6000+ comments, it's the latter)

Re:Kind of Pricey

[Anonymous Coward]

the rod up his ass has a rod up it's ass. i don't understand how stupid people like him survive in the real world. his seed should be errased from our planet.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[NanoGator]

"You spend so much time denouncing Linux. Why is this?"

Hardly a rebuttal, but I'll answer anyway. I'm not denouncing Linux. I'm pointing out its weaknesses. Why would I do this? Well certainly it's not to convert people to another OS. I want to see Linux improved. I want to see more people use it. I want it to be used broadly enough that I can switch to it without giving up hardware compatibility and the game library. Slashdot sometimes has a hard time realizing why Windows is in the lead, sometimes a little smack with the reality stick is in order.

"Having read through your comment history, you make it very clear that you're pretty die-hard when it comes to windows (minus some dabbling in linux). So what do you care?"

Die hard when it comes to Windows? Eh I guess in a sense that's sort of true. It's not because I like Windows, it's because Linux hasn't caught up to Windows in some of the areas that count.

"Or is this the same mindset that makes all usenet windows-advocacy groups full of linux advocates and all linux-advocacy groups full of windows advocates?"

I am not a Windows advocate.

"Are you so egomaniacal to think that you're turning people away from the evil path, or can you just not resist the urge to throw in your opinion no matter what?"

I'm pointing out Linux has flaws. Sorry if that's too much to take. A wiser person would listen to my criticism and figure out a.) if it's valid, b.) what to do if point A is true. Attempting to label me with names like 'egomaniacal' is really rather fruitless.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[0x0000]

You spend so much time denouncing Linux. Why is this?

It's called "cyberturfing". They get paid to do it.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[Brandybuck]

I think he included Windows users in that "everyone" as well.

Dell and all the other mass market PC manufacturers still ship with proprietary hardware. That means without the OEM's software on CD, you're screwed trying to install even Windows. It's more problematic on laptops, but I've run into issues on Dell desktops as well.

That's why I still prefer building my own systems. Of course, installing Windows on that homebuild still involves "several install CDs". One for Windows, one for the motherboard, one for the video card, and one for the sound card.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[NanoGator]

Pff I wish I was being paid.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[Tarwn]

Ah, but pretend your not you. Pretend in fact that your a slightly smarter than average computer user who has heard of Linux but would get lost on the step "Download this ISO and burn it to disk".

What Element is doing is making Linux machines targeted at people that aren't alrady more than halfway to IT people. You know, one of those things that is supposedly holding Linuc back from being adopted by mainstream arguments.

In everything I have read that started out "Linux would be great for the desktop market if..." They start off with installs and end up at support. Well, here we have a machine that my mother could use for her email, word processing, etc with phone support that isn't my phone number.

I'm wondering what kind of alterations they made to applications, but if they attempted to "wizard"-ize things like first load of the email client and stuff like that (can't get on the website, but have been there before) than they could market to the group of people that think it's all magic buttons and lights inside the case.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[HiThere]

Well, in that case I'd recommend Libranet. Or SuSE. Or ... O, Xandros, perhaps. Or Lycoris. Or possibly Fedora (buy the CD from Cheapbytes or somewhere so you don't need to download and burn it to disk).

OTOH, phone support is nice, and would explain a hefty price, if it's any good.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[cubic6]

There's a difference between denouncement and constructive criticism. NanoGator's comments on this thread are definately the latter. I didn't check his complete comment history, but from what I've seen of his posts, he's pretty much on the ball. As a die-hard Windows user myself before I switched a few scant weeks ago, I was pretty vocal about what Linux needed. I was pretty damn good at using Windows, but I wanted to use Linux. I had tried it out several times, and each time I came back to Windows with something that stopped me from using Linux full-time. People who've been using Linux for a long time tend to be blinded to those kinds of issues.

When someone on Slashdot says that Linux is better than Windows for some reason that I don't believe, I argue. When someone on Slashdot says that they can't understand why people don't use Linux more, I tell them why I didn't. I don't do this because I hate Linux, I do this because I want Linux to improve to the point where I can't make those complaints any more. I'd imagine NanoGator posts for similar reasons.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[cubic6]

Also, Windows has lots of inertia thanks to OEMs. Most users are afraid to change their OS. They stick with what came installed, because that's what they bought, and that's what they're guarenteed to get support for from their vendor. A company offering Linux pre-loaded with full support is one of the things that we need to see a *lot* more of.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[gregmac]

Well if you want to download several install CDs, try to hunt down drivers, and edit a bunch of .CONF files, yeah you could do that.

The last time I installed linux, I did it with one CD, no hunting of drivers (since all my hardware is compatible - I buy it that way) and maybe a tiny bit over 5 minutes time interacting, with a total install that took maybe 1 hour (I have no idea really as I wasn't paying attention). That was using a net-install Debian CD, in case you're wondering, where it downloads the latest versions of whatever it needs.

The last time I installed Windows, it took 2 CDs (Windows and Motherboard drivers - and that driver CD was only one CD because the motherboard had onboard lan/video/sound). About 30 minutes interactive time (many small 1-2 minute waits, just to click next and then wait some more), and probably about 45-60 minutes total.

Then I spent about an hour, mostly interactive time, running windows update to apply service packs, wait to reboot, etc. I also spent a lot of time downloading and installing all the necessary programs to get a usable system - PDF reader, Firefox, Thunderbird, Winzip, Winamp.

I think the installation of linux has been beating windows for a long time now. Obviously if you have non-supported or bleeding edge hardware, it's going to be more difficult. Sure, most things come with windows drivers now, as hardware manufacturers see the marketshare and know they have to write drivers. It wasn't always that way, there was a time when you had to be careful to get Windows-supported hardware.

Once the linux marketshare increases, there will be more and more hardware that comes with native linux drivers. Eventually it will get to a point where that is standard, and you don't have to think about it anymore, like it is with windows now.

But to think that installing a modern linux distribution is complicated is just being ignorant.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[NanoGator]

"But to think that installing a modern linux distribution is complicated is just being ignorant."

Having recently gone through it myself, no I don't think so. In any case, that wasn't exactly my point. Coming pre-loaded with Linux is certainly better than forcing people to go download it.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[transiit]

I'm pointing out Linux has flaws.

No, you aren't. Let's go back.

You: Well if you want to download several install CDs, try to hunt down drivers, and edit a bunch of .CONF files, yeah you could do that.

Some other guy: You mean like everyone else does? Interesting concept

You: You'll notice that 'everyone' isn't a whole hell of a lot of people

So do we have some context, now? You're latching on to arguments that are years old.

Download some install CDs? Big deal. The alternative is to go buy some install CDs or get the preloaded distribution that comes on these systems. How is this a flaw? You have to acquire the OS. Short of mailing everyone and their dog CDs, I don't see an issue here.

Try to hunt down drivers? Recall that nearly all hardware support comes from the kernel or X. Those generally are going to come with whatever distribution you use. Yes, there are some cases where some hardware is better supported by binary drivers that have to be fetched separately, but I hardly see it as better or worse than any other operating system choice out there.

Edit a bunch of conf files? If only it could be that way. Both the gnome and kde projects are trying so hard to get away from that that we're already losing much of the flexibility that got them where they are today. Point and drool all over the place. I like conf files. Beats a binary registry populated with even less documented values, or a GUI that changes everything around every other version.

But hey, it's all subjective. You weren't pointing out flaws in what I replied to, though. You were making a snide comment about how few people run linux. Hardly constructive criticism, by my reading.

-transiit

Re:Kind of Pricey

[NanoGator]

"So do we have some context, now? You're latching on to arguments that are years old."

Um, no. Linux isn't very wide-spread, especially compared to Windows. Sorry, that statement still stands, and will continue to stand for at least a couple of more years. If it helps, I'm thinking about as a desktop OS. I'm not thinking about servers etc where Linux is inarguably the best choice.

" The alternative is to go buy some install CDs or get the preloaded distribution that comes on these systems."

My rebuttal had to do with the value of this particular distro as it could be pre-bundled with the hardware, kinda like how you'd buy a Mac with all the working pieces ready to go. We agree on this point, too bad you're too busy seeing 'anti-Linux' in everything I say.

"Try to hunt down drivers? Recall that nearly all hardware support comes from the kernel or X."

And the ones that aren't supported are a total pain in the ass to go get downloaded and configured. I know this from experience, not from anecdote.

" You weren't pointing out flaws in what I replied to, though. You were making a snide comment about how few people run linux. Hardly constructive criticism, by my reading."

Snide answer to a snide comment. Garbage In, Garbage Out. Funny thing is, it's not so 'non-constructive'. I'm hesitant to go into more detail, though, as you seem pretty much bent on proving I'm anti-Linux. I don't think you're actually listening to me.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[arantius]

I just actually ran through the sites. Customized a laptop (First link I found) to as close as could be tweaked. Element: $947. Dell: $1,092.

The differences? Dell has a "free" upgrade to CD/RW+dvdrom. And the windows tax.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[NanoGator]

That's what I thought. :P

Re:Kind of Pricey

[transiit]

Well, you've successfully cemented my opinion that you are here to stir up controversy, rather than adding anything of value.

Thanks for removing all doubt.

-transiit

Re:Kind of Pricey

[NanoGator]

Um right. You can try to weasel your way out of it that way if you like, but don't try to act as though you ever had any objective thoughts about what my motives are.

Grow up.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[transiit]

You're shitting me, right?

Is there any possible way to explain "That's what I thought :P" as anything other than "Neener, neener, neener."

It's immature and stupid, especially considering that you waited a few days (well past the average response time) to try to get in that parting shot.

-transiit

Re:Kind of Pricey

[NanoGator]

"Is there any possible way to explain "That's what I thought :P" as anything other than "Neener, neener, neener.""

Yeah. I spent that time to write all that, and you didn't acknowledge my effort. Considering how shitheaded you've been to me by this point, I'm surprised you expected more of me than that.

Funny you're complaining about my maturity here, and yes I admit you're not catching me at my best, but you're being no better.

You want me to be mature again? Fine, show me some respect first. I wouldn't have 'excellent' karma if I were just a shithead on here. I deserve at least some credit, here.

Re:Kind of Pricey

[transiit]

Rather than consistently returning with accusations, perhaps it's time you countered with substance. "That's what I thought :P", isn't going to be enough to convince me of anything. Telling me that I'm lacking in maturity because I called you on it won't do either.

You didn't answer my question, even though you did quote it. Respect is earned. "Excellent" karma isn't a significant landmark, even I've got that, having numerous -1 comments for less-than-glowing comments about Mac OS X that I thought were honest, though they were labeled as "Troll".

If you want to raise this up a level, go back to my earlier post. Let's review:

Due to legacy OEM agreements that dicate pre-loading of only Windows in many cases, is there anything that sets Linux off-par as far as acquisition goes (i.e., downloading ISOs or purchasing media?)

Is digging up drivers for obscure devices much worse than Windows or Mac OS? (If obscure seems like a loaded word, can you guarantee drivers for every device across multiple versions for your favorite platform?)

Are .conf files any worse than the registry?

So if you really care, answer the questions this time. We're far enough out of moderator attention span that there's no longer anything to prove to anyone but each other or the search engines.

-transiit

Re:GPL?

[in7ane]

Sorry, but that is ridiculous, by the same argument you could say that the GPL code in tivo is misused. Nowhere does the GPL say anything about the hardware the code you modify has to run on, as long as you make it available.

Taken generally the argument makes even less sense - then no GPL code should be hardware specific at all - since who decides what the 'generic' hardware is?

I-Dash?

[ponds]

With Mandrake and Lindow's recent troubles, you'd think they would check that the name isn't already taken.

I just hope the distro ends up changing its name and not My favorite Window Manager

mandatory comment

[dpeltzm1]

hopefully their own hardware isnt running the site gonna be tough to sell that molten pile of goo! (after only one comment no less ;/)

Re:GPL?

[Decameron81]

I think you got it wrong. Their purpose is not to make their OS work only on certain hardware, but to make it work flawlessly on such hardware. I doubt they will take the hassle to remove all the code that makes the OS run with other hardware.

And btw, the purpose of the GPL is not to restrict what one can do with the source. It is all about sharing your improvements and not getting monetary compensation from it, since the original authors gave it to you for free. A sort of chain reaction.

I can see nothing bad with selling Linux related services.

Diego Rey

Makes sense...

[BobWeiner]

...for those that want to try out something besides Windows, but are otherwise afraid of getting their hands dirty with the technical details of Linux. If they pull this off, their products could be the Linux solution for the every-day person who just 'wants it to work' out of the box.

Re:Makes sense...

[Brandybuck]

Except that they can't just "try out something besides Windows" without buying the hardware. This distro is not sold separately. It's not designed for people just to try out.

This is the primary reason why not too many people have switched to the Mac. You can't just try it out.

Re:GPL?

[El Cubano]

I don't like that a company is using Linux in a way that (seemingly) intentionally keeps its software from being of use to anyone who doesn't buy their product. It seems to go around the purpose of GNU and OSS.

Actually, you have it backwards. This is exactly what the GPL was designed for. This company has snazzy new hardware. Since the company can customize an OS around GNU/Linux, they are saved the millions of dollars requisite to develop a proprietary OS. Now you can buy the base model for $799, instead of $2799. Nevermind that then vendors and OSS projects would have to work on porting their products to the new OS (not likely in many cases) in the case of a new proprietary OS.

It's better for them as a company because they are quicker to market and can make their products more economical. It's better for the users because thay can use a well established, rock solid stable OS with thousands of already available applications.

So what if you can only get the hardware from them? As long as they comply with the GPL (or the licesnse for any app they modify), it's all good.

If 2004 is the year of Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Then one idea would be to get rid of the ridiculously stupid penguin mascot Tux. It implies to people that Linux is a 'toy' operating system rather than the real thing.

BTW don't take this as a troll, it's a serious suggestion.

Re:If 2004 is the year of Linux

[stratjakt]

I agree, tux is gay, hopefully these guys aren't zealot enough to have like a big airbrushed tux on the side of the case or something like that.

That'd be a one-way ticket to receivership.

Re:If 2004 is the year of Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahahaha thinking about that just made me crack up. That would be gay.. very gay.

Re:If 2004 is the year of Linux

[Lord Kano]

I think that a penguin wearing a bullet-proof vest would be a good mascot.

Subtitle it with "Make sure your server is Bullet Proof" or words to that effect.

LK

good idea

[dns_server]

I think this is a good idea of selling linux. customising the os by adding custom packages and certifiying that it will work on the hardware. as long as the costs are competetive it should be a good buy.

Un-fricken-believable

[MicroBerto]

Wow. I was just thinking to myself, "You know what, Mike? We need MORE LINUX DISTRIBUTIONS!"

Not only that, but we need distributions that only work_on/come_with certain hardware. So now I go from 2% market share to 0.0002% marketshare!

Have these guys ever taken Marketing 101, or ANY type of business course? What kind of business plan is this, and who honestly expects it to sell?

Let me give you one obvious hint - steal business ideas that are GOOD, not those that have been holding Apple back for the past 15+ years.

Re:Un-fricken-believable

[xtal]

not those that have been holding Apple back for the past 15+ years.

No, I think that should be read as business plans that do not make you (You) a customer. Apple has carved out a very profitable niche doing what other people won't. I wasn't part of apple's audience for a long time - didn't have the money for it to be an option. Now that I have the money I don't have the time to deal with linux. I'll gladly fork out (aparently a lot, too) so that my computer just works when I turn it on.

I think this is what Redhat should have done - picked open source for the gems, made it bulletproof, picked out some hardware and ran with it. They didn't - and nobody has. I thought about doing what these guys are doing, and I think they'll get themselves a very successful niche if the whole package is an attractive by.

Don't take me for a zealot - I use openbsd, linux, windows, solaris, and OSX in addition to QNX on a near daily basis. Apple hit themselves a nice little (multi billion $) niche.

That is not a failed business model. If you want to see failed business models, go here. Apple is eating THEIR lunch. Mmm, tasty.

Re:Un-fricken-believable

[MicroBerto]

Apple thrives on an extremely loyal customer base that took years to build. Where is that customer base going to come from for ION?

I personally have no problem running too much hardware on linux anyway. I think the open-source community is taking quite a nice chunk out of that, and things improve with each new kernel release.

I just don't see a need for this distribution, especially when Mandrake is running fine on my hardware (which isn't all mainstream either) and I can just throw Mandrake 5 bones when I can't afford much else.

Re:Un-fricken-believable

[xtal]

Where is that customer base going to come from for ION?

They make a fancy slick looking appliance PC, and I'd be tempted to replace my current linux box with one.

Re:Un-fricken-believable

[misleb]

Let me give you one obvious hint - steal business ideas that are GOOD, not those that have been holding Apple back for the past 15+ years.

Holding Apple back? What do you think has differentiated Apple them from beige-box-wintel-mediocrity? All Element needs is a successful brandname and they are on their way to success. Even if it is Apple-like success, it wouldn't be bad.

-matthew

Re:Un-fricken-believable

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll gladly fork out (aparently a lot, too) so that my computer just works when I turn it on.

and you're on this site, WHY? You obviously don't know shit about computers.. you're probably one of those people that yells out "the internet is broken!" or "my outlook doesn't work!" i don't understand why stupid people use computers and why women drive, two things that shouldn't be! lol

Re:Un-fricken-believable

[foniksonik]

Hmmm.... you do know that Apple makes more money on their 2-4% of the market than 99% of the companies out there who have 20% or more market share. Also remember that individual companies really don't get as much market share as you think. Intel based PCs may have a huge amount of the market and Intel based PCs running Windows have a huge amount of the Desktop PC market but HP or Dell or Gateway or IBM individually only have a fraction of that market.... the more players the less each gets.

I think they are addressing a real problem and if they target their market correctly could end up doing very well.

Re:Un-fricken-believable

[Halfbaked Plan]

Don't be such a pessimist. Maybe they'll do as good as the NetWinder did.

Re:Un-fricken-believable

[MicroBerto]

OK OK, so i was wrong about the Apple thing. But this type of success cannot be duplicated quickly, and the timing is not right for ION. There just isn't enough userbase support for this type of thing.

Linux is still mainly (although that's changing alot, especially this year) in the realm of geekdom with a userbase who are knowledgable and can build their own computers cheaper. The server side are the huge corporations that will be in competition with ION.

I just think it's a flawed dot-com like business plan right from the get-go. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see this company lasting two years. I still haven't been shown any type of market (besides the few "I would!" posts) that would buy this rather than something else.

Stability is the least of linux's problems. Usability and acceptance are. Focus on those two, which other distributions are doing, and that's where you'll see success. This just adds more restrictions to something that needs no restrictions.

No..

[gmby]

Next thing you'll be telling me is that you want dual floppy drives, one 3.5" and one 5.25".

I want tripple floppy drives!
3.5"
5.25"
and 8"

And yes i still have new 8" floppy disc to backup my CBM computers.

MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

Wally world was mentioned. Need I say more?

Somebody should tell him...

[spoonboy42]

This is all well and good, except for the tablet model (Helium). Doesn't he know that it's extremely difficult to IONize Helium?

Re:Somebody should tell him...

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't he know that it's extremely difficult to IONize Helium?

yes... just like his marketing

Re:Somebody should tell him...

[metlin]

Holy Batman!

Dude, you are my new Geek God.

buy Windows XP??

[uv_light]

In the page that "Interview with Element Computer Regarding ION Linux" it slap a big advertisment on the left titled "Buy Microsoft Windows XP".

I don't know which one is worse, Micorsoft Windows or ION Linux that limit your computer. this is just sad.

That might work when...

[wvitXpert]

they can offer a sleek eye candy interface (sorry KDE isn't there yet) and, most importantly, allow programs to be installed by dragging a folder (like in Mac OS) instead of the dependency hell that is Linux as we know it today.

Re:That might work when...

[dingman]

the dependency hell that is Linux as we know it today.

# apt-get install foo
Reading Package Lists... Done
Building Dependency Tree... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
.....
Need to get X MB/ Y MB of archives.
After unpacking Z MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] Y

Gee, wasn't that hellish? I'm still trying to figure out how on $(diety)'s green earth to conveniently install something on a n RPM-based box, but don't blame that on Linux. The problem is solved. Red Hat just hasn't caught up.

Re:That might work when...

[Anonymous Coward]

I still think that "install" and "remove" should be as easy as "drag 'n drop"...

HDD MB's are cheap so nobody will care about multiple copies of libraries and a with ObjectiveC's dynamic libraries there isn't as much RAM waisted in practice.

Maybe the people from Gnome and GnuStep should meet and talk about integration.

Re:That might work when...

[FullCircle]

Until OSS authors get it through their thick skulls that backwards compatable is not evil, it isn't going to happen.

If you have to compile everything to make one upgrade or install then you will never get ease of installation.

Re:That might work when...

[OldJohnno]

I'm still trying to figure out how on $(diety)'s green earth to conveniently install something on a n RPM-based box,

What's so hard about urpmi foo ?

Re:That might work when...

[wvitXpert]

Maybe I've only tried the 'wrong' Linux distros. In my experience you first have to find and install apt-get (which IS a big step up from RPMs). From an ease of use POV doesnt that kind of defeat the purpose? OK, let's say I have apt-get already, I want to download a program. first I look around on the internet for the exact apt-get command to type because I don't feel safe just typing 'foo' when I want 'foo 1.3.5'. Now I know what to type, ok, I've installed it. Where the heck is it? I look in the start menu and dont see it. I do a search of my entire computer and find it, but then have to figure out which file I actually click to run the program. Once I've done that I have to put it in the start menu so that it is reasonably accessable. Now what do I do if I decide 'foo 1.3.5' is too bleading edge and I want to untinstall it? Windows Installers are good, though having to uninstall through control panel probably isnt the best approach. Mac's approach to this seems the best, drag folder to applications folder to install, drag to trash to uninstall. Easy. Don't get me wrong, I think apt0get is a great tool, much better than any other current approach to installing programs in Linux, but it's still not as good as the Mac method.

Re:That might work when...

[cubic6]

Amen brotha!

Specifically, we need *binary* backwards compatibility. The ability to install any version of libFoo >= 1.34 and have it work with *any* programs compiled against any previous version.

Re:Sad news ... Stephen King dead at 57

[absurdist]

You do know he killed John Lennon, right?

My mac experience

[Moonpie Madness]

all i do is rip out my scroll wheel and two of my mouse buttons and now I've got my own mac experience!!! plus, I play that slidey puzzle game!!! seriously, there's got to be enough creativity to make your own style

Re:My mac experience

[WhiteDeath]

Not wanting to destroy any hardware, I just remapped all the mouse buttons to button 1, and uninstalled everything that didn't have pretty pictures.
Then I uninstalled everything that had useful features....

Experiance complete!

Don't forget....

[mao che minh]

...you also have to throw away all of your games and junk half of your software. Then go to the ATM, withdraw about $1,000, and promptly rip it up.

There, Apple experience complete.

Server meltdown.....

[gnuman99]

Indeed, they do appear to be running a desktop only version of a web server,

While trying to retrieve the URL: http://elementcomputer.com/

The following error was encountered:

* Connection Failed

The system returned:

(111) Connection refused

Down for the count.

[pararox]

It appears that Element's servers have been reduced to mere elements, which is a shame as I think this is a worthy idea, and I'd love to get a glimpse at their site.

I see it's been said (derisively) that this is no new idea. While no one will content the accuracy of that statement, this is a new approach to offering a cohesive and well planned Linux box.

And that's a GOOD thing. How many times have we read the trolls complaining to the heavens how Linux would surely find better success if only it didn't take those extra few minutes to research your new hardware; if only it was better integrated, on both the hardware and the software level.

It appears we're all going to see if those complaints were truly the thing holding Linux back. As a former Mac user, who has been converted to Linux on account of my ability to pick it apart at the deepest or most shallow levels, the only thing I do truly miss was the slick unity Apple provided for it's consumers. Let's see if these guys can do the same.

I certainly won't wait with baited breath, but this is a cool and worthy idea. Good luck guys/gals.

Re:EMERGENCY

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck you, ya spineless troll!
next time i'll suffocate YOU with carbon monoxide

Wow.

[juuri]

Wow. I was just thinking to myself, "You know what, Mike? We need MORE LINUX DISTRIBUTIONS!"

I know most sports stars refer to themselves in the third person, but you actually think to yourself in the third person? Do you also answer your own rhetorical questions?

Sounds like a reasonable approach...

[isaac]

I think the general idea of shipping machines with an operating system and, indeed, applications that are tuned to the specific hardware of the machine is a sound one.

I've installed more operating systems in the last 20 years than I can count. My main home system is a Fujitsu P2040 laptop that currently dual-boots Win2k and Mandrake 9.2, and I've probably spent 60-80 hours installing and tweaking and tuning both of these operating systems just to get everything working to my liking in both operating systems - all the hardware buttons (even the "email" button and notification light), cd-burning, region-free DVD playback, trackpoint sensitivity & z-axis support, 3d acceleration (albeit pathetic on this Mach64-based Rage Mobility) under linux, cygwin in win2k, Crusoe-tuned power management and monitoring, remapped keyboard (caps=ctrl, winkeys useful), separate partitions for my data and OS (and a swap partition used by both operating systems). I can recover this clean, custom load of either OS with bootable CD sets I made. I replaced the fujitsu logo on the top of the lid with a metal plate I screen printed with tiny C version of DeCSS (efdtt.c, props to Charles Hannum and Phil Carmody). It's a great little computer and works a treat - but I'll probably sell it soon because I've come to prefer my girlfriend's G3 ibook. It's got that UNIX-fresh flavor I crave right out of the box, and doesn't come loaded from the factory with bullshit like a PC, and it took all of 5 minutes to configure to my liking when I installed Panther on it.

A company that can deliver a no-bullshit PC running linux with Apple-grade hardware/software integration might get my business. I'm not convinced that Element is that company, but we'll see.

-Isaac

Really Cool

[misleb]

Usually my first criteria when choosing new hardware is "How well does it run Linux?" This may sound like a loss of freedom/choice, but when you get down to it, PC hardware doesn't vary THAT MUCH in features and speed. It is a comodity. There is enough hardware out there that finding good hardware that also happens to be well supported in Linux isn't very difficult. But you still need to look. Not only do they pick well supported hardware for you, but they support it and tailor the the OS to work with it... and it is based on Debian! Go Element! Not that I would personally buy the systems, but I would definitly recommend it to anyone thinking about getting a new computer and running Linux.

It is good to see a company doing the work for people who want to run Linux... without worries of hardware support. Not only is it good for users, but it is good for general hardware support in Linux. The more vendors see people (or resellers) making their purchasing decisions based on how good the Linux drivers are for their hardware, the better the drivers will get.

-matthew

Re:Really Cool

[Hero Zzyzzx]

but I would definitly recommend it to anyone thinking about getting a new computer and running Linux

All two of them. . . :)

Re:Really Cool

[misleb]

All two of them. . .

Well, i counted 5, but your point is made. ;-)

-matthew

Re:Really Cool

[daveaitel]

Installing standard debian on an Element Helium 2100 is nearly impossible, from my experience. I have many postings on the NYLUG groups about this.

-dave

Re:Really Cool

[misleb]

Really? What kind of problems do you have?

In weird als parents house

[Anonymous Coward]

In weird als parents house carbon monoxide suffocates YOU!

Now, all we need is....

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows running on hardware specifically designed to handle Windows and we'll be set.

The problem is that Microsoft's code is exponentially inverse of Moore's law so it constantly gets worse & worse in terms of performance.

The difference between Apple and Element...

[Nermal6693]

The only real difference is that apple.com doesn't get slashdotted ;)

Damn!

[peeping_Thomist]

I assumed this was a distro based on Ion, the best window manager (next to ratpoison) of all time! But no, it's just another lamefest.

Re:Damn!

[nightfallsonhoboken]

Yes! Ion is lovely - automatic tiling, convenient keystrokes for absolutely everything, and easy scripting with lua. The only thing I don't like to do in the window manager is run a panel, 'cause that looks totally stupid. For now, I just run an ncurses perl script as a substitute for a clock applet:

#!/usr/bin/perl
use Curses;
while (1) {
initscr();
addstr(1,1,' '.`date`);
addstr(2,1,`uptime`);
refresh();
sleep(1);
}
endwin();

Actually, if anybody had something for the weather, that'd be nice, too.

Re:Sad news ... Stephen King dead at 57

[Anonymous Coward]

This is outrageous!

In an act of protest, I have deleted all of my Stephen King eBooks and the classic gay porn movie "King kums to Kalifornia".

Apple clones

[giminy]

This probably won't work, and history tells us why: Apple suffered terribly when it started licensing mac clones. ION "clones" already exist in the form of x86 boxen everywhere.

Had Power Computing and all those mac clone companies existed before Apple, I doubt even Apple would have gotten off the ground...by extension...

Re:Apple clones

[m1chael]

The difference is this is aimed at the business desktops I would think. I haven't really seen a Mac there unless they had an interior decorator do the place.

Re:Apple clones

[trash eighty]

how could mac clone companies exist before the mac even does? get a time machine or something?

Actually.....

[retendo]

I think that you've missed on this one.

If ION can put together a slick looking and feeling desktop system with linux nicely tuned on it then I will be *glad* to give them my money. And I have been setting up linux on laptops and workstations for a number of years now.

Why would I pay them money when I can just buy a Dell and do the same?

Two reasons.

Because I'm not always satisfied with the hardware that Dell chooses and I'll be very happy if I don't have to download another $%*# experimental winmodem driver, get the right hardware acceleration components loaded into my X server or figure out why the cd/rw only appears as a cd.

I love linux and love the control I have over the entire system but I hate having to wrestle with configuration issues all the time. If by default my laptop came well tuned and looking pretty I would pay the ION folks some $$$$.

And so would my company.

And so would my friend's companies.

Cool. I hope they get their prices and the the look of their distro right.

Oh, and add a few we more servers to the cluster......

--
Dan Glauser
J2EE Architect
http://www.roundboxmedia.com

Re:GPL?

[Carl T]

It could be argued that the specifications for the hardware should be free. But then that'd have to include every bit of it, and if you're able to reconstruct a modern CPU from blueprints (or rather their modern-day equivalent), you have the resources to reverse-engineer the whole thing anyway. And there's a more fundamental problem here too: we still do not have full understanding of the fundamentals of hardware.

Re:GPL?

[Marcus Green]

The GPL does not oblige you to share your improvements and it does not restrict you from getting monetary compensation from your improvements.

no it wouldn't

[RMH101]

...at least, you can't guarantee it. a lot of OEM copies are tied to hardware as part of the licencing deal. this is because joe public doesn't want to pay extra for a retail copy of his OS.

other hardware?

[Hurricane78]

"and it is developed specifically to work perfectly with the accompanied hardware" Does that mean upgrades result in incompatibility and other hardware is unusable? Would also be a typical mac-problem, no? ;)

Understand?

[essreenim]

Its for the obvious reason.
Mac OSX is specifically targetted for the MAC.
So: When MAC OSX installs, it's binaries are optimized for the G4 architecture.

This is a bit more awkward for the PC. Although Intel and AMD share the same core instruction set, there are of course differences. Others like Transmeta are completely different.
This presents a problem for M$ as they like to keep things i386 borg'd!

And therin lies the power of Linux and Open source in general. If you compile source code for the specific target architecture you're working with, you will optimize to the max. And ion are taking this a step further. By making their mission/goal to optimize all software for the specific h/w it's running on, they are sure moving towards the smoothest dam resposiveness you could want in an O.S.

It should make ion linux the choice for scientific applications where performance is essential.

I use Mandrake but I really like the sound of Ion. I think I'll move over when I get my next PC.

oops

[essreenim]

Sorry, I should have said that:

When Joe_X buys a G4/G5 etc. the version of Mac OSX - Cougar etc. is optimized for that particular architecture that it ships with.!!

Sorry

Re:That might work when...-- poor moderation

[CdBee]

The user's points are valid and aren't excessively redundat/duplicated either.

Mod me down if you will, (Karma:Excellent so it won't do me much harm) but wvitXpert deserves an Insightful for that, I'd do it myself if I had points currently but I don't.

Tinfoil Helmet

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they're probably Micro$oft employees trying to bankrupt Apple by subversive means. And they're in it with the aliens, the Freemasons, Prince Charles, Hitler, Elvis and Elton John.

It makes excelent sense.

[TheLoneCabbage]

It makes excelent sense.

If the underlying system is Debian, then who cares if it's a "different distro". All debian file systems adhere to a common standard, so fork it all you like, as long as they are all intercompatible.

Don't you recall the Browser Wars? System vendors made a huge deal over wanting to have control over their users interaction with the desktop. Customizing it to their own specifications (both DELL and Compaq were big into this). Then MS made them sign contracts preventing them from doing that (or at least limiting it severly), to prevent them from putting Netscape on the desktop. MS was more concerened with making sure users knew this was a MS Brand computer than a DELL Brand computer. (that's been strategy since day one in the DOS days)

This is where the infinent strength of Linux really lies, in configurability to a company's or user's specifications. And in the end it will be THIS kind of functionality that puts Linux over MS, because the big boys want to "Customize" the users experience, giving the user a reason to buy a DELL(tm) System, rather than a Beige Box(tb). There is no faster or cheaper rought (buisnesses will 90% of the time follow the path of least resistance).

It's all about the Tools.

Create an expoitable market by creating the necesary tools. Make it cheap/easey. And let MS give the major System Vendors the reason they need to make a change.

Floppies do suck!

[MarcQuadra]

Agreed fully, and remember, on a Mac you've got OpenFirmware, so you can EASILY do a one-time boot off a USB or FireWire drive.

Apple made considerations to eliminate the floppy, PC makers have not. PCs still don't have standardized boot protocols for stuff like USB or FireWire, so they NEED floppies to make stuff like BIOS flashes easy to use.

The best thing about adminning on a platform with no floppy? Never having to tell anyone that their disk ate their work.

Re:Floppies do suck!

[Anonymous Coward]

The best thing about adminning on a platform with no floppy? Never having to tell anyone that their disk ate their work.
That does it, I'm so _not_ moving to Mac... I need that excuse for when I haven't done my work.

Apple Prices

[MarcQuadra]

The really funny thing is how much cheaper iBooks are than the 'cheap' PC counterparts. They were talking about switching the lower school where I work to PCs to save money.

I've got a chart of features, price, and experience with how long the Macs last in the hands of students compared to Dells. The iBooks cost about 40% LESS than the similarly-equipped Dell machines, the gap grows even more when you get to year three and have to replace ALL the Dells but 3/4 of the iBooks are still good for another year.

eMacs are also cheap in the long run, the things are freakin' bulletproof, I've got two labs of them in the hands of hyperactive fourth-graders and they're totally unscathed after two years (excepting keyboards and mice). The Dell labs we have with GX150s have all had their front panels knocked out and CD-ROM trays damaged, most floppy drives will kill disks, and the rat's nest of cables is getting unmanageable.

Re:Apple Prices

[Crayon Kid]

eMacs are also cheap in the long run, the things are freakin' bulletproof, I've got two labs of them in the hands of hyperactive fourth-graders and they're totally unscathed after two years (excepting keyboards and mice). The Dell labs we have with GX150s have all had their front panels knocked out and CD-ROM trays damaged, most floppy drives will kill disks, and the rat's nest of cables is getting unmanageable.

Man, come on, seriously now. What's this now, a Mac being more sturdy than a PC? What will it be next: "my Mac can smash your PC to bits if it falls on it"? Kinda reminds me of "my brother can beat your brother and throw him over that fence with one hand"-talk back when we were five, doesn't it?

Re:Apple Prices

[AaronD12]

Man, come on, seriously now. What's this now, a Mac being more sturdy than a PC?

Okay, the plastics that both computers (PCs and Macs) are similar, I'm sure, but what MarcQuadra's trying to say is that the Dells at his school are falling apart because of poor design and construction.

I'm finding the same problem at the school I work at. The Mac labs look as good as they did when we installed them, except for some dirt on the keyboards. The PC labs, however, look like they've been run through the mill.

The front panels that covers the front USB ports and audio jacks have fallen off, the floppy and CD-ROM bezels have fallen apart and are missing on some of the computers.

What's worse, on our Dell Optiplex GX150s, the on-board NIC frequently breaks. We have a lot of networking classes that plug and unplug network cables. I've had to replace 4 motherboards because the network jacks have failed from use. If you wiggle the network connectors with your fingers, you can see how poorly assembled and designed the case and motherboard are.

This has nothing to do with my computer can beat up your computer.

Re:Apple Prices

[MarcQuadra]

It's not about that, it's about Total Cost of Ownership. If we have to service the PC hardware three times as often as the Macs, AND we can get four years out of a Mac, but only three out of a PC, there's a HUGE value advantage for a machine that costs one or two hundred more at purchase time.

Macs have less stuff to break, they have very few fans, or very low-RPM fans that tend not to die, which means you have many fewer CPU, drive, and PSU failures. When there's only three cables coming out the back of the box (network, power, and kbrd) there's a MUCH lower chance of having to replace mangled boards.

I have to recommend machines to give to kids age six through eighteen, the young ones have no problem yanking keyboards and throwing mice at each other. I feed those kids eMacs and iBooks (if the curriculum demands portability) because it lets me focus on technology delivery, not technology repair.

Re:GPL?

[Anonymous Coward]

WHAT!?!??
WTF have you been smoking? free hardware, like that's ever gonna happen. Not full understanding of the fundamentals of hardware?!?!? since when? I've always had that.

It is not all about marketshare

[gosand]

Wow. I was just thinking to myself, "You know what, Mike? We need MORE LINUX DISTRIBUTIONS!"

You refer to yourself in the third person? Uhhh, OK. Anyway, this distribution is not for you. It is for the people who buy their systems. Not only that, but we need distributions that only work_on/come_with certain hardware. So now I go from 2% market share to 0.0002% marketshare!

The world does not revolve around marketing. Do you think BMW cares that they don't have the marketshare of Ford? Do you think Apple is trying to unseat Microsoft? Niche markets can be very profitable. It sounds to me like this isn't in the same market as all of the other distros - so in their market, they may have 100% marketshare.

It is a decent idea, and one that could be successful. I think it would be interesting if it did, because it might show people who think like you that we don't need the same stale, lame, annoying ways of doing business.

Ok, I'll ask the question...

[Pii]

What the heck does PEBCAK mean?

I'm all about the acronyms, but sheesh...

Re:Ok, I'll ask the question...

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem Exists Between Chair and Keyboard

Re:Ok, I'll ask the question...

[cubic6]

Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard

Also sometimes reversed as PEBKAC: Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.

Nobody has!?

[autechre]

You're posting on Slashdot, remember? Slashdot is part of OSDN, and the parent company of OSDN is...well, VA Software. But if you think back a few years, they used to be VA Linux. They thoroughly tested hardware to make sure it was reliable under Linux, then sold machines with Linux pre-installed.

Now, I don't know if VA sold workstations, but I know that Penguin did (and does), because I've used them. Penguin has some nice-looking Opteron servers as well.

You might argue that these two companies are targeted more at businesses than the home user, and you'd be right. But it's not as if this is some new mind-blowing concept. Lindows is basically trying to do the same thing; while they will sell you the software separately, most people are going to pick it up via those cheap computers which (gasp!) have hardware selected for Lindows.

Misleading

[edxwelch]

If you look at the details of the desktop. It says at the start that it is a Pentium 4 533MHz FSB processor, for only $999, but then when you look at the bottom it says the base model is really a Celeron.

Let's not forget Libranet...

[TheScienceKid]

...as all the other replies to the parent seem to have done. See http://www.libranet.com/features.html and notice that it is 100% Debian compatible (ie based on it.)

It seems like a logical choice as it has a reputation for having consolidated admin tools above and beyond the standard debian tools (which are quite superior in themselves)... although I haven't used it much... the last libranet machine I worked on was upgraded to debian stable 3.0 as that was what I (the only person with any linux admin knowledge in the whole college) was familiar with.

As an aside, our college has [thanks to my assistance and co-operation with the administrators] gone from a school with more holes in the internet filtering than dear Eliza's bucket to being practically hermetically sealed.

Examples of this (and other improvements) over the past two years include...

1. Time-based squid rules for disabling class access for typing/coursework IT sessions etcetera.
   Thankyou follow-x-forwarded-for patch for squid :)
2. Dansguardian in stealth mode producing knowledge reports for each user.
   Thankyou identd for windows which we renamed to drwho.exe as a scifi reference that has led to our students not noticing the involvement of a certain time lord.
3. A linux bridge to the internet that automatically DNATs connection attempts to our parent proxy to our local proxy if the source ip is not one of our servers ;)
   This has stopped even the most determined students from accessing our provider [EMBC]'s proxies
4. A brand new web design that permits members of staff to, among other things..
   
   • Post news articles for the front page and department sites
   • (When completed) control internet access to their classrooms
   • Upload new designs for their web subsites which automatically get appended and prepended with the official headers and footers, respectively
   • Create and upload articles/classroom resources that are available in their sites via a simple function call that will be searchable once the site re-structure is decided on.
   • Locate parts of the building (via red links) on a map where the current location is highlighted in green and the destination in red, although this is currently limited to a subset of the map until I can get a more accurate entire map from the premises department.
   which you can see a development mirror of at my apache server on DSL so don't slashdot me ;)

Regards,
The Science Kid

Truly apple like

[AshtangiMan]

uh lets see, almost $1900 for a P42.8GHz, 512MB, 30GB HD, 17"Flat Panel. It really is like Apple. It appears like this is with the cheapo on board video,sound,networking. So, I get $600 worth of hardware (ok, that might be low, let's say $800) and a free OS, and they get $1100 net income. I think I found a business model I like! Actually though, I will still recommend this to my Dad, rather than have him go to Dell . . .

And by coincidence

[Moorlock]

...I'm just breaking in a new Element 700 laptop this month.

This is the first time I've tried one of these user-friendly, WalMart-safe linux boxes. I've got mixed feelings.

On the plus side, the install/setup was a breeze, and when I pulled an 802.11b card from my old machine and popped it in to this one it was recognized and used without any special effort on my part. This is a long way from the old "google for a driver, recompile the kernel, run LiLo, cross fingers, reboot" method I used to use when adding hardware.

But on the negative side, I think a Windows user who switches to this is going to have some valid complaints. Primary among these is cut-and-paste functionality, which ought to be a flawless thing that you barely have to think about.

In fact, it appears that KDE apps and non-KDE apps have different cut-and-paste buffers that don't talk to each other. The intermediary "klipper" app can sometimes be used to bridge the gap - but sometimes not, and in any case: what a kludge! Occasionally you use -C/V to copy and paste; other times you must use /-. Sometimes there is a second or two of delay before when you copy something into a buffer and when it is available for paste. Some apps, and some parts of apps, seem completely oblivious to cut-and-paste no matter how you do it. To your average desktop user (and to me, frankly) this is pathetic and a horrible frustration (I don't remember having this problem with gnome).

The CDROM drive was not correctly set up, and I had to tweak some configuration files to get it to come up correctly in the file system. Not something your typical WalMart customer is going to be able to do, so for them, they'll have a CDROM drive that just doesn't work correctly.

There are some other peculiarities, like when I use Mozilla's URL bar for searching. I used to be able to enter "search term" here, then hit the down-arrow which would pop up a "Search for search term" drop box. Hit enter, and go to google's results page. Now the same set of actions, which look on the UI like they should be accomplishing the same thing, result in an "invalid URL" message. Where's the bug? I dunno, but it bugs.

The file manager has some quirky bugs too, which a Windows user will notice and compare unfavorably. For instance, use the mouse to select a group of files, then right-click and choose "move to recycle bin." All of a sudden, only the first file in the selection is selected, and only that file will be moved to the recycle bin. That's pretty lame.

ION eye on you?

[AstroSurf]

from the interview... --)) We "allow", but don't support DIY apt-get functionality, apt is configured to pull from our selected sources, not the standard Debian apt repositories. ***An experienced user can easily add standard Debian repositories and install packages themselves, though our tracking system will pick it up*** and those self-tested, self-installed packages will not be supported by the standard warranty/support. ((-- What do they mean by THAT?! Enquiring minds want to know!

VIdeo chipset?

[incom]

It says they use a sis m650 integrated video, does it have a decent linux driver that can do 3d acceleration? I would pay for "linux hardware" from a company that chooses to use an unsuppoted video chipset to save money if it can only do 2d with it's linux drivers and 3d in windows.

Element's Helium is a great piece of hardware...

[Seth Cohn]

Mike told me about this a few months ago, and I'm very excited by it.
The Helium is a sweet tablet laptop, and we've got a mailing list for running Debian on it already:
http://lists.csail.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/helium -debian

It ships with Lycoris linux, and the laptop is available from other dealers under other names/brands, including with Windows bundled. Element sells it without.

The only things not working under Linux are the zc301 chip webcam and the 4in1 card reader, neither of which has linux drivers.

But grammer?

[Any Web Loco]

...hardware vender's...

It's a pity KDE doesn't check grammer too huh?

Re:GPL?

[Carl T]

Umm...[exhales green smoke]
I think I was trying to make the point that free hardware is a very problematic concept because it takes a hell of a lot of resources to manufacture e.g.a modern CPU. Anyway, it's not clear to me that one should try to extend the free software thinking to hardware, when so much of the point of free software is based on software being very different from everything else.

As for the fundamentals of hardware: I didn't specifically say _computer_ hardware. Until we can incorporate general relativity and quantum mechanics in a single theory and use it to make predictions, there is no workablecandidate for a Theory of Everything.