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Ask the Egyptian Installfest Organizers
The Linux-Egypt group recently held an amazingly successful installfest. This event was a milestone both for Linux installfests in general (was it the largest one ever held?) and for Linux in the Arabic world. Alaa Abd El Fatah, one of the organizers, has offered to answer your questions with help from other Linux-Egypt members. We'll post their answers to 10 or 12 of the highest-moderated questions as soon as we get them back.
Pyramid Cluster!!!!
Linux or pirated copies of Windows?
I tried for 5 years to come up with a clever sig...only to realize that I am not clever.
Do egyptians install in English or is it possible in Arabic?
What were some of the reasons that people gave for trying/switching to linux? Was it as simple as better language support or saving money? Or were there political motives as well, such as a resistance toward Microsoft because of its nation of origin?
I am wondering what the competition is for an operating system in the arab world. Is windows as big as it is here? Or do people use other operating systems (BSD, OSX, Solaris, Linux) most of the time?
Also, what is the most widely used distro in that part of the world?
one world | many people
Have the recent military actions taken by Western countries in the Islamic world affected attitudes towards software, bearing in mind the US-centric nature (Microsoft, Intel, Adobe) of commercial, closed-source software?
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
How ingrained is technology/computing (including OSS) into popular culture in Egypt? In North America it is everpresent and accepted as part of the culture, as it were, but I seldom see the same side of other societies. Are geek topics common 'water-cooler' discussions?
What were some of the major obstacles that you expierence while organizing and during installfest?
Just want to congradulate them. A job very well done.
snowulf.com
Are there any technical restrictions in current Arabic language support in Linux? Also, how big role do language support and translations play in adoption of Linux there? I suppose there are quite many people who don't speak English at all.
When choosing to use Linux, one makes a conscious decision to join together with other people from around the world in a salute to freedom. Egyptians join with Finns, Americans, Asians, South Americans, and Europeans when they install Linux. It is both very humbling and yet uplifting to know that the software you are using is a result of international cooperation.
However, the history of the world, and especially North Africa/Middle East is full of wars and territorial animosities. Without trying to peg you as one who would necessarily hold these beliefs, but there are many in Egypt who would like nothing more than to have little to do with America and its allies. Do you think Linux has a calming effect on such feelings? Does it provide a means of exposing those who would not normally have exposure to such things a side of America and its allies that is not simply warmongering and anti-Egyptian?
I'm not asking if Linux is going to come with a worldpeace.pl script or anything. I'm just curious as to the ability of Linux to provide a favorable view of Western society to your Egyptian Linux installbase.
I have been pwned because my
Do you feel events such as InstallFest have contributed positively to the growing awareness of computer technology in non-western countries?
In terms of compatibility, were there any common stumbling points of getting hardware to play nice?
In other words, how much hardware commonly available on the Egyptian market is unsupported by Linux?
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
What is the most popular distro in Egypt?
-m
#
# Modus Ponens
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and if you do; has anyone tried to make any efforts towards getting GNU/Linux, or even some Open Source Software applications (such as abiword) to be used?
of middle eastern *nix users.
The camel book
I've been recently to Egipt and couldn't help noticing the large number of shops that offer net access for a small (European standards) fee. Do these shops usually run Linux or Windows?
I also know the government has it's troubles raising money to put computers in your administrative structure. Is the government setting up Windows (paying the required licences) or Linux?
I would like to congratulate you on your initiative, as it may contribute to reduce the electronic divide.
I know that Arabic has quite a number of individual characters (>255 ;-), and goes right to left. How easy was it to adapt Linux to use Arabic?
Insert
http://www.pug.bz:9876/~gupta_p/installfest/
I didn't look through all the installfest photos, but I didn't see a lot of women there. Okay, so hanging out with a lot of geeks configuring network services isn't most chicks idea of a hot date. But, nevertheless, how many females are involved with the open source crowd, and in the IT industry in general, in Egypt?
Norman Cook's Ode to Sl
How friendly are you to those installing linux? How friendly are the installees towards each other and the outside world?
I ask, because most americans think its best to call people 'newbies' and shout 'RTFM' if they ever have a question.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Parent has a very good question actually, even if they don't directly ask it. Hoes does the religion make-up of the install-fest compare to the religion make-up of Egypt? Are there fewer or more of any specific religion that attend? Was religion even present? What about nationalities? Did you find that natives or non-natives to Egypt were more likely to attend in comparison to the # of natives/vs non-natives in the general population?
I can count to 1023 on my hands. Ask me about #132.
What were the most common misunderstandings among new or potential Linux users? Did you provide a place for newbie questions and answers?
My office has been taken over by iPod people.
I am from the UK and find that pushing the idea of thin client computing using LTSP difficult to get across. I suspect one reason may be the fact that cost over here may not be a big issue and people still don't mind spending ridiculous money on computers. What is the LTSP climate like in Egypt and are there lots of Internet Cafe's/Community centres that use/or would show interest in using LTSP to set up inexpensive internet access like in Brazil or other countries?
We already have about 10 of them.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
where can i get a tshirt with that kickass pyramid logo? :)
What do Egyptian nerds wear? Black horn-rimmed kaffiyehs? And do you wear Star Trek robes, or wear the shirts underneath regular robes and stick a little Star Fleet pin on your lapel? Do robes *have* lapels? How do you say "bite my shiny metal ass" in Egyptian? What's the ancient heiroglyph for "FR15T P05T!?" How awesome would it be if you took that cord that holds your kaffiyeh on your head and modded it with EL wire? Do Egyptian nerds survive off of Cheetos and Mountain Dew, or is it more like big mouthfuls of qat and Pyramid Dew? When you're playing Tomb Raider what do you say - "Nice rack!" or "Dude! You can totally see my house in this level!" What kind of beer do Egyptian nerds drink? Do chicks dig Egyptian nerds, or are you all in the same boat as us? Do you guys freak out over Japanese chicks and pocky? How do you keep all the fucking sand out of your case mods? Do you have "Type-R" camels? Do you have low-rider camels with neon on their nuts? Do you guys know the Icy Hot Stuntaz? Do hot Egyptian girls come to LAN parties? Are you as excited about Half-Life 2 as we are?
(And I'm only slightly kidding about these. We'll learn more about each other by talking like nerds than we will by pretending to be politians...)
How many installations were done on laptops, notebooks and PDAs? Are there Linux installation reports available for laptops, notebooks and PDAs in Arabic? Actually I would like to link to them from the TuxMobil - Linux on Mobile Computers database.
As often as I see people go through upgrade cycles, and especially in the wake of the news saying that Microsoft was suggesting using machine with 2 gigabytes of RAM, 1 terabyte of disk space, 6 ghz in speed, 3x faster video cards, etc., I have to wonder how Egypt is coping? What kind of computers were you installing linux on? And believe me, I've installed linux on things that should never of had linux on them! =)
Or more to the point, what is the first thing users want to do after the system is installed and running?
Have you Meta Moderated t
Eager minds want to know...
Can you give us some idea of the state of computing in your country? For example, are computers common in general home use, are middle-class types able to afford them, and so forth. I'm also curious about how the heat and sand are handled - are they problems?
It would be absolutely awesome if Linux could encourage people of all races and nationalities to gather together and sing Kum Bah Yah in peace.
How much of an egyptian income takes buying a computer? What is the computer/population ratio? How is the average hardware? PIII? PIV?
From the description, one of the greatest assets of the event was that Linux users, seeing that the organizers were being swamped, pitched in and volunteered. In Egypt, would a Windows-based event had anywhere near as much spirit?
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Conectiva is the biggest linux player in Brazil and it also has some recognition around the world - you probably remember Marcelo Tosatti worked there, right?
Well, being a Brazilian company and having a heavily localized distro has helped them get a strong hold in the market here, but it works twofold, as it also helped spread linux among people and business that would not try a non-localized distro.
Any company in Egypt pursuing this marked opportunity currently? Or you think it would not work there (and if so, why?)
Thanks!
What is the most common operating system in Windows, and how is it normally obtained?
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
I'm interested in: what's the best distro with regards to Arabic support? I've been studying Arabic for a year or two now and I enjoy tinkering around with Arabic on Linux, but sometime's it's so hard to get things to work! (I recently tagged some of my Arabic-language mp3s with Arabic Unicode in the id3 tags, and so far the only player I've found that will display the Arabic tags is the Beep Media Player (gtk2 fork of xmms).
Dlugar
Computer Go: Writing Software to Play the Ancient Game of Go
Being from an underdeveloped country myself, I find that due to the paucity of information, the first distro to get a foot in the door (Redhat) quickly acquires a monopoly. Have you observed the same thing?
A lot of work with Arabic in OSS relates to the complex RTL (Right to Left) layout of the language. Most development in this area was by Arab and Israely developers. Do you find yourself working together with Israely developers to reach the common goal of proper RTL support in Linux and OSS in general? Are there political problems working with Israeli developers?
Thanks
I'd be interested to find out the numbers of installs they did per flavor of *nix. Did one distro dominate?
Although I like the idea of installfests, I usually get a shiver down my spine when I hear about them.
Pictures of naive users who brings their Windows PCs in to have everything on their harddrives wiped out and replaced with a system that will solve all their problems leaps to my mind.
Without some basic training on how to use a Linux system, pointers to good documentation and reasonable expectations, they will likely just get a frustrating experience and get disgruntled, telling everybody else what a terrible system Linux is and have somebody reinstall Windows.
What measures did you take to avoid this situation on your installfests and do you have any plans on how to follow up on the installfest with some more events that can help these newbie users on their way? Also, do you have any recommendations for other LUGs arranging installfests?
IIRC, the goal of the installfest is to load Linux on to as many computers as possible, right?
So...what was Linux installed on to, for the most part?
Let's hear about the hardware. What was an average machine at the installfest? Anything really stand out? Also, what was on the HD that you installed to? Blank HD, or other OS? What was most common?
Weaselmancer
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Any problems encountered with so many boxes & people in one hall in a climate I guess will be kind of toasty?
I had enough problems last summer with 2 pc's in a room!
Linus Torvalds (CA)
Oh yeah, great example of American technology right there...
Hear here folks: the father of Linux is now American and, before you know it, he'll have created Linux when he was a student at Berkeley!
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Is killing a cat process punishable by death?
He's lived in the US for 7 years now. I don't know if he ever applied for citizenship but I think it is safe to say that he is American as anybody else in this country. Remember that this country is made up of immigrants. They (and I say they because my ancestors had nothing to do with it) did a good job of wiping out in the indigenous population. Hell even they probably came across the Bering Strait land bridge many thousands of years ago.
It would take too long to list out all of the great minds who came to America and made a name for themselves.
Being from a third world country (aka Argentina) I'm interested in the cost of the technology in the world.
Trying to compare it to my own country.
Can you tell us what is the access cost to the technology??
I mean:
How much do you pay for a computer?
How much do you pay for home internet access? (And what kinds of access can you get)
What is the cost of an hour in an Internet Coffe Bar?
What is the average salary of a normal guy in a normal job? (doesn't have to be IT related)
Thanks! And keep up with the great job you are doing for the community!
Here is some background, based on experience of relatives living in Egypt. I am Egyptian myself, but have not been living there for 15+ years.
...etc.) More importantly, this led to many web sites showing correctly in Arabic ONLY when used Internet Explorer.
In the 90s, Microsoft turned a blind eye to piracy. They simply did not care what happens in the Arab world (software wise). They ignored that market. Arabization of products normally followed a delayed schedule, with the latest product being not in Arabic. When Windows 3.x came out, there was a competing Arabization by Al Alamiah, a Kuwaiti company. The lead architect (cant' remember his name, but either Lebanese or Syrian) there was enticed into leaving Al Alamiah and join Microsoft. There was a brief law suit then. In the end Microsoft was dominant in the Arabization area. Product release in Arabic still lagged behind English and other Western languages.
Then, in the mid 90s, Microsoft started to enforce licenses on businesses. In Egypt, a newly formed Shortet El Mosanafat El Faneyya (literally: Artistic Products Police, more like: "Intellectual Property Police") started raiding large, medium and small businesses to check if their software was licensed. They specifically looked for certain products and ignored others (e.g. Microsoft stuff, AutoCAD in Engineering firms, Oracle, but not Novel [if I remember correctly], nor Apple).
Rumor at the time had it that some rich and powerful people (ruling elite) made a cut with Microsoft in all this.
Remember that the US Dollar was around 3.4 Egyptian pound at the time. Making legal software very costly for the small business.
This scared small businesses, and some relatives I know migrated from Microsoft Windows and Fox Pro applications to Linux and SQL-Ledger for example. There was so much resentment for Microsoft at the time for doing this, and the powers who enforced it.
Now, the exchange rate is about 6.5 Egyptian Pounds to 1 US Dollar, so it has gotten even worse (more prohibitive cost of Microsoft software).
However, in the internet land, another development was taking place around the turn of the Millenium. Many developers for the internet knew nothing but Microsoft, so they used its technologies to develop web sites (ASP, MS SQL, NT/2000/XP,
This means that people at home or in offices who do not have Windows and IE will not be able to interact properly with web sites. Al Jazeera web site for example shows only the middle pane in FireFox, and the side menus are only visible under IE.
Arabs are around 300 million, is supposed to be the 5th most widely spoken language in the world. For a company to gain a monopoly on an entire culture is simply wrong and unacceptable, but it did happen.
the bright side is that Linux is making some inroads. But there are obstacles (e.g. Arabic web sites which are IE centric, as above).
Yes, boycott of American products may have played a role since 2000 (with the Palestinian uprising, then the post-Sept 11 events). But more pragmatic factors were there far before any of this came into play, and Microsoft was (and still is) not liked by many (just like the rest of us Open Source advocates in the West do not like thm either).
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning.
You know, not everyone in a country supports the actions of everyone from that country. I, for instance, am apalled at the recent torture of Iraqi prisoners by our soldiers. I think murder and torture count toward bloodthirsty monster status, what have these poor Egyptian geeks done to deserve such a label?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Is anyone in Egypt using Linux mainly for Arbaic stuff? Which distro do they use.
...etc.)
I mean, programmers and techies will be fiddling with English apps most of the time, and only use arabic for the odd letter, or web site. What I mean is someone who does most of his work in Arabic (document editing, browsing, spreadsheets,
I have tried Red Hat some time back (I think 7.2?) and Konquerer would work well displaying Arabic web pages correctly, but no other apps would work well.
My current Mandrake 9.1 is a pain to setup Arabic to work (in KDE control panel), and even then, it does not work in all apps.
Knoppix from Sept 2003 is far far better. You can switch to arabic by clicking the little flag icon on the bottom right of the screen, and many apps (cant remember which, probably Open Office?) can accept Arabic letters.
Any one used Mandrake 10 CE or Final with Arabic? How is it?
Can the non-CD distros emulate Knoppix in this regard?
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning.
Ahh, I see, so you're in the "terrorism is justified" party of thought.
Internationally speaking, what about distros that contain software that's illegal to have like encryption in China or deCSS in the US? Do you suggest rolling your own distro from say debian or gentoo?
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
Get the latest X and KDE releases and be happy.
I am an English-speaker living in Sweden. I can tell you it's a combination of:
Of course, you can't discount the fact that they spend their whole education studying it. However, as an English-speaker trying to learn Swedish, I find it intensely annoying that Swedes refuse to speak Swedish to you if they know you speak English.
The mere idea that the US Army intetionally kills innocent people is simply absurd with the exception of a minute few (since there are murderers in every country and every ethnicity).
Israel from day one did not bulldoze Palestinian houses and farm land. They did this in retaliation to homocidal maniacs who tell ignorant people that they will go to heaven if they kill a bunch of Jews. Killing based on religious or ethnic traits is simply genocide.
Yes Israel has killed more Palestinians than the Palestinians have Jews. Yes its not so black and white. The difference though is that Israel is and has been operating in self defense for over 10 years and attempting diplomatic negotiations repeatedly along the way. The fact of the matter is that if Israel were occuppied by the PLO (instead of vice versa), the Palenstinians would have already killed all the jews.
But with respect to the US Military, calling them terrorists is simply stupid. We had 3000 people die in an instant on 9/11 and the overwhelming potential for millions to die based by a terrorist financed and executed nuclear holocaust, all because the Arab world can't get their shit together, educate their people and reject Islamic Sharia and its caveman justice. As a result, we now have to clean up their pile of shit for them, and if it means that NYC never gets nuked by a crazy Muslim, I don't care how many people die in Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, N Korea or Malaysia.
The US spent the last 15 years not fucking with anyone and as a result we were attacked on a scale more horrific than Pearl Harbor. SO EAT MY ASS YOU PIG FUCKER.
But it's not dialup-friendly.
Do you see the expansion of groups like this more as a positive influence in the region, or a threat to Islamic fundamentalism?
I am assuming that people in closed societies would find the idea of open and frank communication with other cultures (implied by the use of an internet ready device) danagerous for their agenda. Is this the case, or are my assumptions faulty?
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
It might be an interesting statistic, but do you really think they questioned everybody at that installfest about their religious/political beliefs? Looks like they had their hands full just copying the friggin CDs!
And that would be an interesting answer in itself. My guess is that there were most likely a higher ratio of non-natives to natives in the installfest than in the country's general population. If this is true, then it would be interesting to know if (or that) geekdom trumps differences in religion. That's what I'm getting at here.
I can count to 1023 on my hands. Ask me about #132.
Also, was enough technology around early enough in Egypt for people to be chronically annoyed that their printers had no true descenders, and so, mangled the name of the country when printed?
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
Is there an Arabic equivalent to 1337 5p34k?
And if people practice it (except for irony), do they get their keyboards cut off?
Please?
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
I saw the original posting on the Cairo installfest, and as a longtime user of BSD-style UNIX (1978 or so), I was delighted. I had the pleasure of seeing Cairo a couple of years ago, and met a Linux devotee who was the son of an Egyptian family with whom I had dinner.
So, I followed the links to the website, and read a large number of the postings in the forum there. I don't suppose I should have been surprised at the infighting that seemed to be going on there - the noisy minorities usually dominate the forums, worldwide - but I was. What is the political climate inside the Egyptian open source world? Is it very highly factionalized?
start treating criminals the way God intended [...] Jesus, whom I'm sure you respect
I'm not even gonna touch this.
stated repeatedly that luke warm actions are not enough, you have to take a stand and do the right thing, no matter the consequences.
There's a difference between courage and stupid, senseless futile actions. If he stood up in the local coffee house, is that going to change anything? Is it quite likely that he'd be killed? The way to change things is by getting the government to treat criminals as criminals. And actually, AFAIK, Egypt, while it's a horrible place, law-wise, isn't sending suicide bombers into Israel. Don't paint all Arab nations with one brush. Keep in mind, too, that non-extremist Islam (in the Ottoman Empire, up to and including Suleyman's reign) has historically been one of the most tolerant and peaceful cultures in the world. Especially compared with Christians, who were responsible for the Crusades, the destruction of Native Americans in the US, and several other atrocities. That was also a generalization, but at least I'm generalizing about the mainstream of the time, rather than the extremists.
- Internet censorship?
- legality of certain types of software (deCSS, encryption tools, anything else you can think of)?
- passage of email in/out of country to/from other nations - i.e., is email filtered or read? Is it illegal, or "suspicious" to send mail to certain countries, or recieve it from those places?
I'm sure you can think of other stuff that we might want to know about w.r.t. Egyptian law.troll?? All I wanted to know is if they had heard a generic over-all reason for all the (new and unexpected)interest, and what perhaps it might have been. It's an "ask these guys" question, that was my question. From what I remember when I read that before, they were expecting a few hundred, got like 6 thousand or something, so obviously there was some big reason for that happening. I threw out just a few obvious things, but it don't have to be one of them, but that is sort of what I was looking for, like "we wanted to install linux because of xxx"whatever it was. Could be anything, I sure wasn't there to hear it. Anywho.... someone read me wa-y-y-y wrong I guess...
Al Jazeera web site for example shows only the middle pane in FireFox, and the side menus are only visible under IE.
I bet if you get the User Agent Switcher and send your browser as IE on 2000 the site will display.
Try it and let us know, or post a link where we can test it out.
I am far from being a Nazi, a biggot or a racist. I am merely pointing out the ridiculously obvious that our PC world refuses to acknowledge.
Let me explain something to you: I am utterly and completely atheist. I do not believe there is a God. I also believe that its everyones right as a human being to practice their religion freely. I also believe that its every individuals responability to RESPECT other people's beliefs and life styles and if you can't RESPECT it, then you TOLERATE IT.
The problem with the Middle East today is that they practice Islam the way people practiced Christianity in 1000 AD and they have no respect for life, not even their own. When I say that they need to "get their shit together", I am saying they need to modernize their society and stop being hateful. They need to stop strapping dynamite to men, women and children and blowing up buses and cafes, not convert to Judaism or Christianity or any other fucking useless religion. These people are quite frankly living in ancient societies in the modern world. Their societies are not compatible with anything other than Islam. They teach anger and hatred. They practice disowning family members over ridiculous things like not praying. This is the single solitary reason why they murder innocent men, women and children and fly planes into buildings. This is the single reason why they will eventually level an entire city like NY.
WRT retaliation; in war, unfortunately those who do not fight are the ones who die. Terrorists require immediate and overwhelming responses to their actions. If the response is not immediate and overwhelming, they grow bolder. Bin Laden spent the 80's and 90's blowing shit up. He started small and got bolder and bolder going after larger targets. Our response then by Clinton was to launch cruise missles into factories believed to be sponsoring terror based on old irrelevent information. As a result, Bin Laden felt untouchable and hence 9/11.
Right now we are living in a day and age where if we do not STOP terrorism NOW there may very well not be a tomorrow for MILLIONS, possibly BILLIONS of people. We are headed full steam towards a nuclear attack and when it does happen, the retaliatory response will change from "kill the hostiles who take shots at our humvees" to "kill everyone and don't give them a chance to re-group". It sounds crazy, but that is the state of the world right now.
P.S. Before going on your 150 word rant, read what I post and put it in the proper context.
I do not think this does the trick.
But even if it did, it is a classic case of "Microsoft is the only platform that exists" when developing a web site. Myopia, and just shows the point I made in my original post.
Anyway, the site is Al Jazeera. Try it yourself.
The center part should render fine on any OS/Browser combo that supports Arabic (Windows with Opera and Windows with FireFox, Linux with Konquerer do show it correctly).
However, when the menu on the left and on the right will not show unless you are on IE. Some parts of the page use ActiveX as well (Yuck!)
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning.
... not that I was really annoyed, more puzzled, so the "huh?" comment. Oh well, don't matter, I bet the question gets asked anyway, someone else will have asked it(similar anyway) and it will be modded to+5 so it gets included in the list. So I get what I want anyway...heh