Slashdot Mirror
The Future of RPN Calculators
Noksagt writes "HP's recent release of the 33s won't be the last RPN calculator. Former HPers at Hydrix are hyping an impressive Linux-based PDA/calculator, named Qonos. They have a survey up regarding features, etc. More information can be found at comp.sys.hp48 or The Museum of HP Calculators.
A new open hardware project called OpenRPN has also begun. Their mission is to produce horizontal and vertical format scientific RPN calcs and later a graphing calc."
HP calculators might be more competitive today if Carly hadn't decided that it would be a really good idea to dump the HP calculator engineering team to "save money".
May we never see th
...is to be a teeny-tiny niche market, like Linux handhelds (compare and contrast: Number of Zauruses sold vs. number of iPaqs sold).
The Masses don't understand RPN, don't understand why anyone would want to use a "backwards" syntax, and aren't interested in listening to us nerds when we explain the very real benefits of grokking stack-based systems.
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
Q'onos? Isn't that like the Klingon homeworld or something?
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
these calculators make mine look old-skool. seems kind of pricey for $350+, my TI-83+ was C$120.
i guess it may be useful for some people who need the extra features or want the fancy gui. but really, who needs stereo audio input/output?
Marge, get me your address book, 4 beers, and my conversation hat.
Inconvenient? I can perform complex calculations MUCH faster using RPN than I can with an algebraic calculator. No worries about misplaced parantheses!
I installed The DIV Calculator for PocketPC on my Windows CE device because I missed my old HP32s.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
maxima.sf.net is a truely awesome symbolic algebra program, it is derived from one of the first ever 'modern' computer algebra systems and was recently made open source.
If it could be put into a calculator, that would rock.
http://notanumber.net/
Spoken like someone who's never used it.
I was addicted after using it for, oh, a month. It took some getting used to, though. Unfortunately, I didn't realize I liked it until the calculator (HP 48g+) was stolen. I pity the poor sap here on campus who buys it from whoever stole it, but isn't able to use it.
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
Surely it should be
RPN Calculators Future of the
/me looks at Qonos /me is blown away
Wow! That's all that needs to be said. I am definitely getting one of these.
Karma: Segmentation fault (tried to dereference a null post)
I see from the information about the "Qonos" Linux based calc that it uses an XScale (ARM) processor - like the Zaurus's do.
If it's using the same OS, on very similar hardware, the Zaurus would be a good development/prototype platform. And, it would give us Zaurus owners a good calculator option.
I got a TI-85 for years, and it has beaten/outperformed every calculator including calculator software on windows.
Seriously, why are we worried about the "future" of inconvenient input formats?
How is RPN inconvenient? Sure, it requires a change of thinking initially, but the gains are traditionally a lot more than the initial effort required. Even just in my limited use of RPN in a college environment, I have seen the benefits as far as speed and yes, convenience.
In one of my recent math classes, the instructor spent 20 minutes helping people to enter a semi-complex formula with parenthetical notation. With RPN, I didn't have to deal with messy parenthesis, I just got the work done. As an added bonus, I got to spend those 20 minutes practicing my written Chinese. :)
"Wow, you're like some kind of superhero able to ward off happiness and success at every turn."
-- Ryan Stiles
Very interesting!
http://www.hpcalc.org/qonos.php
It is also been 10 years since I bought it, but it is the bomb!
200LX forever!
Includes graphing on a large screen, full keyboard, etc.
And runs DOS 5.0!
Fellowship 9/11
Other obligatory comments:
There's more details and pictures on hpcalc.
Quote:
Operating system:
eCos, running in 512KB SRAM and providing one month of battery life
Linux, running in 64MB of SDRAM and providing considerably more than a day of battery life
Other software:
Emulation of both the HP 49G and the TI-89
Advanced math software: Gnuplot, Giac/Xcas (supposedly better than Maple), MathsExplorer
PDA software: calendar, tasks, notes, time management
Datalogging capabilities
Processor:
Intel PXA 263 XScale processor, running at 400 MHz
32MB of on-chip flash memory
32-bit data bus
Display:
Grayscale 3" 320x240
Full support already exists for a color screen to be offered at a later date
Other hardware:
Mono speaker and microphone
Stereo audio input and ouput ports
Keyboard with tactile feedback designed for fast, accurate data entry
Compact Flash Type II slot
SDIO slot
IrDA port
USB client and host ports, supporting external keyboards, webcams, and other devices
Optional sled:
Vernier probe compatible
8 analog I/O channels
16 digital/sonic I/O channels
Extra high-capacity lithium ion battery
DB-9 serial port
Price:
Over US$350
On the other hand, RPN does inspire near-religious devotion in some, especially those who used the early HP calculators back in the 70's. My engineer dad would have killed for one of those back in '74 or so, but they were too expensive at the time.
Have you read my blog lately?
From the OpenRPN Project Website
Here is a short list of some planned features:
*Philips LMC210x ARM7 CPU
*Flashable ROM
*MMC/SD expansion card support
*20 digit accuracy
*USB connectivity
*Several forms of I/O
*3"x5" PCB for internal expansions/modules
*Hi-Resolution LCDs
*All aluminum watertight body
*Molded-through keytops (customized sets will come standard)
*High-durability anodized finish
*Customizable keyboard overlays
*Positive tactile keys
*Reverse RPL compatability
*A nice thick manual
This sounds just like the PDA I would Love to have which is of course the point here.
My single question is one of integration in that I do not want to carry a full-featured Calculator and a PDA I just want the PDA itself yet with this awesome calculator function integrated. Where does the line exist anymore between PDAs and Calculators especially Linux powered devices?
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. -- Hunter S. Thompson
Especially knowing that the calculator division was self-funded, and one of the most profitable in HP... It was just too small a profit overall, and TI is crushing HP in terms of sales. Carly's motto was "we're only staying in business where we're the first"... Was hasn't she dumped PCs then? :-P
What I am looking for is a 12 C replacement. I want nice clicky keys, not a touch screen, and I want RPN. The New 33 is a bit too funky with the V patterned keyboard. It is also suffering from enter-key envy. So tiny.
TI's wouldn't exist if the demand on HP's calculators weren't so high and they had to let TI make some of their chips back in the day.
Yeah. An external keyboard, more ram, emacs, and a GSM transceiver will make this the killer convergence device.
I didn't think anything could shame my 48GX...
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
RPN is NOT inconvenient if you get used to it.
I actually prefer RPN.
Calling atheism and agnosticism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
No, because that would be "RPN the Calculators of Future."
Though a calculator of future would be kinda cool...
Cthulhu loves you.
Is it just me, or does that have the same ring as "fuel/air explosive-based cigarette lighter"?
As a high school student, I loved my HP "Reverse Polish Notation" calculator. Whenever someone would ask to borrow it, I would say, "Sure, you just have to remember that if you want to add 4+2 you have to enter '4', 'Enter', '2', 'Plus'."
This scared everyone away, and they went on to borrow someone else's calculator. I didn't have any trouble with people "forgetting" to return the calculator, I still have it to this day. Thanks, HP!
they need to fix those buttons. I mean, the old style buttons on the 32SII and the 48GX rocked. Why, or why did they ever have to change to those evil plastic buttons? Was this a cost-saving thing, or just a tatic to make sure the calcuators died out?
My UID is prime and so is this number: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0.
Great. Here come the TI/HP flamewars.
when it killed-off its handheld division a few years back. I was deeply hurt when news of the HP48GX was no longer manufactured. This was a niche market that all the geeks gravitated toward. I have five HP48s: three HP48S's, one HP48SX, and one HP48GX. The best calculator of all time: solid, dependable, when the batteries get low, it automatically goes into 'Coma Mode' to preserve the memory, and the keys were had colored embedded plastic instead of paint for the numerals and functions. These things last forever.
I've got a hp48gx and always suffer from this kind of situation:
- hey, can you lend me your calculator?
- no, you won't know how to use it.
- yes I will.
- ok, if you really want.
- [1] [+]: + Error: Too Few Arguments hey it's not working!
- I told you...
I don't want my calculator to be my PDA. I have a PDA for that. They're different devices with different interfaces and should be used for different things. I put an RPN calculator on my Palm and, although I can use it, it's awkward and clunky. I use it only when I have no other choice.
I don't want a graphing calculator. I like my one line of text. If I need to graph anything, then I'm probably doing it for a complicated reason, and I'll fire up Matlab or Origin at my desktop. My calculator is for, just that, calculating.
The website brags that this thing has a whole month of battery life in it's low-power mode. Big fricking deal. I bought my HP in about 1990. I have replaced the batteries in it exactly ONCE. There's nothing more useless than a calculator that you've picked up and realized you forgot to plug it in last night to recharge it, and it's dead.
I don't want a fold-out keyboard that's probably fairly fragile and won't last too long. I want something sturdy that will stand up to significant, continuous use for years to come.
Why can't someone just build a good calculator that does what it's supposed to, and not some calculator / PDA / laptop / Borg monstrosity?
I am going to start calculus next year as a softmore. Can you explain this in more detail, with out actually using calculus? I want to know because I would like to buy a new calculator this summer, and I want to share this with my calculus teacher. I've tried RPN on my TI-83 plus (with RMN III and CABAMAP applications), and found it to be minorly surperior.
Simon's Rock College
Matlab? Get it to run Matlab and i'll buy it. I guess Octave is good enough too.
*cough*matlab*cough* erm, mathematica? maple?
Your Mom
No worries about spelling, either. :)
:)
The modern calculator should be able to handle easy RGB triplet to hex conversion, as well as IP xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx 'Bruce' format (I can't remember what that format is called, so I just refer to it as Bruce to save confusion) to 32-bit format.
Oh yeah, and a built-in function for calculating the air speed velocity of laden and unladen African and European swallows, based on various factors such as wind speed, elevation (density of air, ya know), age & weight of birds and any burden they may be carrying. Granted, even with that, it won't be all THAT accurate, but it's better than clacking two coconuts together
Oh, it should also have built-in 802.11g WiFi & IEEE1394.b.
And If I can use it to control the TV remotely, that'd be great, thanks.
I still prefer the physical format of my trusty HP11C, but then again, I don't need graphing ability in my calculator. Graphing's for nerds.
However, this sort of calculator/pda, if properly designed and price, could compete with TI. The reason is that there is a lot of interest in giving students limited computing devices. Such devices can be used to allow students to look up data, complete assignments, and, if the student is given the device, keep track of assignments and grades. Some studies indicate such a device increases learning at all levels. If such a device allowed group management, one big problem with the TI is that each calculator must be individually programmed, the possibilities expand greatly.
The biggest issue is the RPN data entry. This is not going to be an issue with students. Students must be taught how to use a calculator no matter what the data input. This will be an issue with teachers who may only have a rudimentary understanding of computers. A calculator that does both will greatly increase the students ability to think critically, but I am afraid the teacher may revolt against any non-traditional calculator.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
For those who love RPN, check out this RPN calculator for GTK (now GTKmm2.2 compliant):
ghsiloP
I discovered last night that the stack doesn't scroll when you add lots of values, but I'll fix that soon.
that means one more 1st year engineering student hazing ritual down the tubes. First the slide rule and now RPN calculators. What's next?!?
The 200LX is far superior for graphing, due to speed and a high resolution display. These two things are the main weakness of my 48GX. Taking seconds to over a minute to plot graphs is not fun, especially when you get a blocky 141 x 64 (been a while, but it's about that) pixel graph. However, that blocky LCD provides pretty good contrast - perhaps why HP choose a lower resolution display.
After playing with the device for a few weeks, I built a data cable and, about half way into the trimster, did load an IR library onto the thing (think remote control emulation). Man, we had a lot of fun with that thing (my High School had cable TVs in every room and in the halls so we had a lot of fun).
And I still have that calculator and use it quite often -- it still works like a charm.
What Carly would have to have done was to design a machine targeted to the schools, and then create a massive support structure equivelent to TI.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
People just freak out over RPN for no reason. I taught several college friends, none of whom were math wizards, about the joys of RPN and every one of them became hooked. RPN just seems backwards because everything is fed to us in a linear, "algebraic" way. But the fact is, RPN is actually much more intuitive once you get past the initial "wall." With RPN, you do calculations the way you would with a pencil and paper - or in your head: Break the problem into chunks so you get intermediate values, then operate on those intermediate values, and so on until you're done.
Just starting at the left and working your way to the right, all the while keeping track of parentheses is NOT intuitive. It's just familiar.
I think it is great for people who will use it for their job, but I think students need to stay far away. It really hurts when you rely on something like that so heavily and can't use it when it counts.
And on another note, I don't really want a pda calculator. I just want a great calculator. Calculators are great tools for what they are. /rant
Because that calculator has already been built, and you already own it.
Thus, building it again isn't likely to be profitable.
paintball
It occurs to me that with calculators as powerful and flexable as they are today, giving the user the ability to switch between RPN and Infix mode would not be out of the question. I am as big a fan of RPN as the next geek, but when my teacher gives me a complicated equation in infix, just being able to copy it straight into the calculator without having to convert it can be useful. Especially for the calculators that are nearly PDAs, HP should consider making Infix and RPN both options.
Has some negatives if it's to be called a PDA ,like a small screen.
That price is on the high side. Stick with Ti or buy a real PDA and get an emulator.
If they put an HP16C mode on that Qonos calc, I may just have to buy one... no.... I *must* buy one.
Why would you want to spend $350+ on a calculator that can also function as a PDA, when you can get a great PDA for as much and install calculator software onto it?
Having to reenter a large formula just to change a constant is a pain with RPN. Once you get into that Mathematica/Maple working mode where you edit expressions I think algebraic wins.
I have an HP48SX and HP48GX which I like but never use -- I use a great command line program called "calc" in Linux. If I don't have calc I use bc. Both have readline support (assuming GNU bc).
Candidates should be required to bring (and show proficiency) just one of (in descending order - the higher the selection, the better you'll look):
RPN calculator
paper and pencil
sliderule
abacus
chisenbop
fingers and toes
(ick)"regular" calculator
It's incredible how people who rely on standard calcultator are so linear in their thinking and can't get past elementary concepts. And if calculators were to be banned in school, they would likely have been one of those who whined like a baby because the work was too hard.
Now it's time for the math sissies to throw a fit.
Let me guess: Are you the same wussies who can't spell or use punctuation to save your life?
Are you that stupid?
Perhaps I'm old fashioned but once you have enough computing power on a device to be able to run Linux what you have is a general computing device, not a calculator. Sure, you'll be able to do lots of nifty things with it, but you can do that with a lot of other devices that you can actually buy now. Give me a dedicated calculator anytime.
why tell them? That's too much of a clue there's something different
Just hand it to them. That's when it's more fun. Hand it to them then a long, long pause.
"How do you use this?"
"Oh, let me turn it on for you." Long, long pause.
For more cutting on the flatheads with one eyebrow, search for the word "chisenbop".
I like my HP28S - I don't do anything more complicated than interest calculations, but I love RPN.
A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
Everyone in the Slashdot community seems so worried about the Microsoft monoculture, and yet here we are pushing linux into every possible niche. It can't be optimal to have the same OS running on both our calculators and our supercomputers.
Am I part of the core demographic for Swedish Fish?
During "Y2K", we had to do lots of testing of interest accruals, and it was a lifesaver.
LONG LIVE RPN.
A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
Bruce's real name is "dotted-quad" or, less commonly, "dotted decimal".
For the keyboard.
THE NERD IS THE COMPUTER.
If it's a powerful, ergonomic device with unshifted hex keys (A-F) like the 16C - even if it also has keys G-Z there's a good chance I'll buy it at almost any price under $500.
If it's a PDA/Calculator hybrid with a touch screen, forget it! I don't want to have to choose between greasy fingerprints or always fumbling for a stylus.
RPN is just downright more efficent for multistep calcs. I miss the stack on my 48G--using a 12B (financial calc) for this stupid test.
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
The nice thing about doing straight transcription
versus RPN is that:
1. The calculator does the parsing, not you.
2. When you verify formula transcription from what
is printed on paper (vs. what is on the screen of
you calculator) it IS intuitive to compare character
for character left to right, just as you read.
In practice we will hopefully evolve to where the
calculator does pretty formatting of the formula
(a la Mathematica), presents it to you to verify
that it is correct, then calculate.
It would also be nice if the calculator allowed
one to enter formulae in tex, as for many people
they "see" formulae in tex.
Dotted quad, thaaaaat's what I was trying to remember.
Another good feature of the calc would be to enter either an RGB triplet or a hex colour code and have it find the nearest web-safe palette colours (on either side). That'd be just dandy.
And built-in unit conversions wouldn't hurt. Volkswagens to other volumetric measurements, football fields to meters, and whatnot. And hogsheads, don't forget the hogsheads! And 'stones,' so we can figure out how much Bridget Jones weighs in the upcoming sequel.
And hands, so we can figure out how tall horses are. And what with the petrol crisis in the U.S., dollars per gallon to pounds per liter (or Euros per litre), just for comparison. I'm told those in Europe would be pretty happy to be able to get gas for 'only' US$2.35/gallon. Yikes.
Anyway.
Reverse Polish notation was invented by an Australian in response to Polish notation, which was invented (gasp!) by a Pole.
The whole story here is
adjectives prepositions and rules RPN follow not should why?
What is really scary is that I read that sentence without noticing anything wrong with it. I guess that's what happens to RPN users...
still remember how I was using one of those in insurance company where I've worked as a programmer.
One of the actuarials asked me to borrow it.
Sure I said, but it uses RPN.
What is RPN? she asked.
Reverse Polish Notation - I've answered.
She looked at me VERY SUSPICIOSLY.
Is this somd kind of polish joke? -- she said.
(beautiful girl, by the way. and actuarial)
In practice we will hopefully evolve to where the
calculator does pretty formatting of the formula
(a la Mathematica), presents it to you to verify
that it is correct, then calculate.
I had a sharp 9300 in highschool, it did that, it was nice...
Then I switched to an HP48gx and I never looked back...
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
Darn JSP!
Are they running it off of their calc/PDA?
The fact that OpenRPN is still up proves that Open Source is better!
Here's a RPN Calculator I wrote for the Zaurus
o r
http://www.neilmoomey.com/software/#RPNCalculat
There are a bunch of others. My favorite is PARI-GP.
(S(SKK)(SKK))(S(SKK)(SKK))
As a sibling mentioned, Matlab and Mathematica are nice, although Maxima and Octave might be more accessible. I'd also recommend Expression Calculator. It's the best non-CAS Win32 calculator I've ever seen. I'd easily say that it's better than my TI-86.
Karma: Contrapositive
I was thinking along the lines of the following:t ml
http://www.dynamism.com/x505/specs.sh
Quadruple RAM, throw away HDD and replace with a few
Gigs of flash, throw away all connectors besides one
USB 2.0 port and make it thinner and lighter. Also
get rid of color screen.
For me the distinction between a notebook and a
calculator is weight and battery life. If you can
take the above and make it weight less than half a
pound with a week of battery life I'd buy it as a
calculator.
I can use RPN, but most time I forget what's on the stack anyways. If you want to be fast, its way more important to know how to use the 1/x key and know log/exponent manipulation.
That's why you should use variables on the HP48 for that kind of thing...
In school in electrical engineering, I had a huge set of formulas and constants stored in a directory on my HP48GX, all I had to do was to change a constant, then push the right formular onto the stack, press ->NUM once, and had my numeric result (even complex numbers) there, which would have taken at least two sheets of paper by hand.
It just takes a bit of training.
Once you master it, you will find its more efficient than other forms of notation for calculations. ( and that its a bitch to go back if you batteries die during a test and have to borrow someone else's )
Then after you have been bitten by the RPN bug, check out FORTH...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
My wife (then live-in, who is *not* a mathy) adapted easily to RPN for everyday math (checkbook, etc).
When I explained to her, "Hey, its the only kind of calculator I have", she sat with me for 5 minutes and picked it right up. It is not hard *if* people will just open their brain for a moment.
Didn't our moms teach us to try new things?
-> proud 15C, 12C, and 32SII owner
-- Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
I've been using HP calculators ever since buying an HP-35 in 1973. I wandered off the path a couple of times but not for long, because RPN just makes total sense.
The tremendous success of the HP-12C in business is proof enough. And ask any HP-41 user how he likes his machine. The thing is a tool that helps you get a job done in as few steps as possible.
I use a 48GX or 49g+ every day. I much prefer the 48GX keyboard and the location of the Enter key (although I'm slowly getting used to that), but everything else about the 49g+ is better: much faster, much better and slightly larger display, and lots more 'stuff'.
Unlike some people I don't mind the 48/49 implementation of RPN (actually RPL) compared with the old style 4-level stack, but a lot of old timers refuse to use the RPL machines that started with the 28. At the same time I still like the 41/42 a lot. There's surely a place for machines like the 32S II. It remains to be seen how the 33S with its odd looking keyboard does in the marketplace.
I'm one of a very few who have an HP PDA based on Linux that never made it to production. Display contrast isn't very good, but otherwise it's decent but not feature laden because the project got killed and people lost their jobs. For this reason it's heartening that someone's talking about doing an HP handheld running Linux, and I'll support their efforts any way I can. It's about time for the user community to pitch in - this reminds me of the PPC 44 project talked about what, 20 years ago?
I see that as a weak point. All the movement will eventually break the cable and render the device unuseable. Sure they will be repairable for a fee, today. But in 10 years, good luck finding the right ribbon cable..
One of the good things about the older HP's, they will last forever.
And it does look way overkill for a calculator..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I knew when I hit a key on my 48.. didn't need to double check. I actually finally wore out the 0 button on the keyboard; the contacts are getting funny sounding after 10 years of abuse, including likely millions of keypresses in University and much abuse from Phoenix and simple games like that.
The calculator who's weak IR communication inspired me to build a IR repeater. My first really neat EE project.
I desperately want a replacement, but it has to have those clicky keys. I had a 100LX and I wore it out too.. please please please please make this, and make sure to include the CLASSIC tactile keys!
RPN forever!
..don't panic
Unless they have licensed rights to redistribute the copyrighted ROMs from HP and TI, they probably shouldn't tout its ability to emulate the HP-48 and TI-89, since the emulators they are using almost certainly require a ROM to work. If they distribute pirated ROMs with the calculator they will be sued out of existence in a very short time. If they don't, it will come across to most people (who don't know where to download pirated ROMs, and either don't own a TI/HP calculator or don't want to deal with extracting a copy of the ROM to their PC) as false or misleading advertising.
"(Man) tries to live his own life as if he were telling a story. But you have to choose: live or tell." --Sartre
And then next time they needed a calculator:
- Hey, anyone have a calculator?
- Here's mine.
- Oh, that one again. er.. nevermind, I'll find someone else.
Back when I was in school, I used to find myself in the same situation, except I'd usually skip to the "okay" and afterwards offer to show them, at which point they'd usually decline. It usually worked pretty well, until a couple of friends plus my little brother finally took me up on my offer to show them, and before long they refused anyone elses.
And YET the "masses" use RPN all the time and don't realize it.
When the masses do a math problem.In other words we're presented with the numbers FIRST, then told what to do with them (ADD).
When the masses do math in their head, it's the same way. Intermmediates (mental scratch memory) is for carries.
We think RPN is dead because most people don't actually conciously THINK about what they do when they do math. This becomes even more obvious when doing a more complicated problem. Try doing the quadratic formula for example.
Bet we do that RPN with the precedence rules already memorized (remember your teacher going through those?).
So NO it's not a geek thing. It's just that geeks are more obvious about certain aspects that the masses may not be conciously aware of.
---
"Sorry, but according to [the] tests [we turn on and off], you are trying to post from an open HTTP proxy."
Qonos: $350
Mathematica (for students): $130
What is the point of making huge calculators when you can basically assume a computer is available?
Sure, my laptop may be a little larger than I need, but I already paid for it.
if that was true USA would have superb math literacy, the facts however disagree and USA is 18th in the world!!
perhaps you should leave that calculator at home and use your brain for a change
"Then after you have been bitten by the RPN bug, check out FORTH..."
The nice thing about FORTH is that it retains relative simplicity, while scaling very well. Remember an OBJECT is an OBJECT regardless of internal complexity. And a stack is conceptually simple. Remember the RTX from Harris?
Oh, come on. This was a joke--like making fun of Perl for being unreadable.
For those whom don't know, RPN stands for Reverse Polish Notation. RPN is the Perl of the calculator world, for chrissakes.
Point being, only a Pole could come up with something so... Unique! (and damnit, I'm part Polish, and I didn't take offense to it.) Some people are just too fucking sensitive.
I use a TI-83 and to avoid parenthesizing I have been using the ANS button a lot, which essentially amounts to doing RPN. For example instead of 1/(5+3) I will do 5+3[Enter] 1/[Ans]. But I still find the ability to do algebraic notation useful for longer expressions when I would have too many things in the "stack".
My junior year of high school, I was rushing off to take the ACTs (like the SATs) and either I couldn't find my calculator, or it wasn't allowed. I ransacked the house, and came up with two calculators: a little four-function calculator my mom used for balancing the checkbook, and my dad's HP (I think it was an 11c). Of course I took the HP, and I was well into the test before I realized that it was "broken." Luckily the math was easy enough that I didn't really need it, but I was sweating when I first tried to use it (45 * 32 Enter)
Cache Rules Everything Around Me
If you want the real RPN, you should try learning japanese. In Japan, the verb(=function) is always after the subject and object. Sounds pretty much like RPN to me ;)
p.e.
Nihongo wa omoshiroi desu.
(Japanese Language, convenient) is
there you go!
The HP 15C may well be the ideal pocket calculator for today, when more complex calculations are done on a desktop computer. Bring Back The HP 15C
Here are some Examples. Scroll down the page. I bet if you think you can pick it up in a few minutes.
Thats what symbolic mode is for on modern devices...
Clik for examples. They also have a neat equation writer built in.
Mods: please donate a point to this to enlighten the parent.
I think that the HP calculator design needs to be expanded to include APL. Why mess with all the strangeness of the various keystroke programming paradigms when modern hand held hardware is capable of an infinitely more powerful way of working. And yes, APL is a postfix language.
The Masses don't understand the auto-mobile, don't understand why anyone would want to use "gasoline" instead of hay (which is free), and aren't interested in listening to us motorists when we explain the very real benefits of the internal combustion engine.
Now, you might be right, but a lot of the predictions that a superior technology would be rejected have been wrong.
Put rpCalc on your Zaurus and you're home.
... but how many different things you want in your pocket? And how can you live without a full computer there?
Okay, it's a little spendy for a calculator
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
The 32S is amazing, and I wouldn't replace it unless I had to. Mine is pretty beat up, but I've actually NEVER replaced the batteries, and I bought it around 91 or 92. I keep waiting for it to die. In fact, I carry around a spare ($5 non-RPN) calculator that I bought once when I left mine at home, assuming at some point it will die during a final exam or some other worst possible moment. (I guess I probably ought to just replace them, but I'm curious how long it can go.)
Curiously, someone momentarily borrowed it the other day, and it was the first time in a long time the borrower didn't just hand it back in confusion.
Its LIES, all LIES I say. The 49g and 49g+ give the TI89 a run for its money. They can do the same kind of symbolic things.
On the 48 (G series) you can hit ARG (Right-shift EEX) to get the last evaluated expression. There's a similar button in the same vicinity on the S series, but I don't remember for sure if it's called the same thing or if it's in exactly the same place. It's useful occasionally, but as another poster mentioned, you're better off to use variables.
1 But a modern calculator, with a symbolic mode (think 49g+)
2 type your equations in 'symbolic' mode, or just use the equation write if you're lazy
3 ???
4 calculate! And see your equation as you enter it.
You can save a lot of time if you find the common denominator first, by prime factorizing both denominators and then finding the product of each prime factor the maximum number of times it occurs in either number.
For example,
prime factorization of 28: 2*2*7
prime factorization of 98: 2*7*7
common denominator: 2*2*7*7 = 196
This method also makes it easy to see what number to multiply the top and bottom of each fraction by (the product of the factors that occur in the common denominator but not the denominator of the particular fraction).
It also has the added advantage of being easily working for an arbitrary number of fractions.
Most of this process is probably what you were describing, but finding the common denominator first saves a good bit of pencil work.
Yes, but HP gave engineers the calculator they needed.
HP's haven't used keystroke programming since the 1980s.
The 48 and 49 series use a lisp-ish language called RPL.
Clear, Dark Skies
Not only spreadsheets have lots of plotting and calculation tools, it comes with a much friendlier interface, and can be done more quickly and cheaply. The PDA itself may cost a lot, but the developers don't have to be burdened with manufacturing costs as Casio/HP/Sharp/etc. do, and it can easily attract users who already has a PDA or two, if they play the cards right.
You don't need the 2nd enter, you worthless sack of shit. 3 enter 2 +, numbnuts. go fuck a beer bottle.
The same could be said of doig the calculation on paper. The calculator is supposed to make life easier, not harder.
The 15c is obsolete, get over it. MAke a better one with a bigger stack.
Yes, I screwed up the part number. I meant a 15C.
Sorry guys, I love HP calcs and I really like RPN but for most things a Palm PDA and EasyCalc is a better solution.
The thing is if you only have a 2/4 line input screen RPN is unbeatable but on a 320x320 screen there is no point. The thing to beat there is a symbolic calculator, somethng like a micro Mathematica for a handheld.
And, the entry cost is close to $100 bucks for a low level Palm PDA whose battery live is measured in weeks if not months per charge for a B/W screen.
You can of course store RPL programs which are RPN, which I have also done, obviously, but it's not as convenient as direct editing like on a TI-89 or TI-92.
I do like RPN for novelty reasons mostly these days, but I'm just pointing out one issue here with large equations.
Did anybody else notice the application shown on their rendered "calculator" is a calendar app? So, what are they targeting, calculator or PDA?
RPN... Somewhere around here is my old Sinclair Scientific (circa 1977). If only the on/off switch still worked. Clive Sinclairs early UK RPN calc. And it was a pretty thing, too, all in white.
But it gets me thinking. I have a roman numeral calculator on the website, could I do an RPN (Reverse Ptolemaic Notation... Poland didn't exist in 200BC) Roman Numeral Calculator? Hmmm! Now there's a project!
II II +
IV
I'm all excited!!!
I still use my HP15C from university back in 1983.
In one of my first jobs, I used a HP/Apollo Workstation and it had a lovely RPN Calculator that ran under X which looked like a real HP. Does anyone know where I can get one for say Linux or Solaris?
Have you see the beautiful HP emulators for the Pocket PC at http://www.lygea.com/?
It you for convenient is people many how learn it to
willing are but ?
For those with Linux searching for the most perfect RPN calculator, I have found it! Galculator, a free open-source GTK2 driven application fills the gap that is created by the absense of a HP calculator. I do hate that I own a TI-89 and not a nice new HP 49G+ due to extensive use of galculator I have come to love RPN during the conclusion of my high school junior year. So I say unto thee:
May your entity of lack thereof save RPN. (use galculator or if you use Debian, apt-get install galculator)
Karma: Good, or bust!
Back when we had to actually solve equations without the use of any tool other than our brains and a slide rule, we learned to solve from the "inside out". When HP brought out the "electronic slide rule" nothing changed except that the accuracy was improved immeasurably. The HP35 had little on it that wasn't on a good slide rule; it was just very very accurate. We still solved from the "inside out".
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
I didn't say divisor; I said denominator. As in, the least common denominator is the least common multiple of the denominators of the fractions. I wouldn't say you necessarily need a refresher course; it's just terminology, right? ;)
And I tutor SAT math and some junior high math students as well, and a surprising number of students just use the failsafe method of multiplying the denominators together if they don't immediately recognize a common multiple of the denominators. (Sorry, that was a bit wordy. Basically, they try Method 1 in their heads and then just multiply the denominators together if it doesn't work (the "multiplying across" method listed in the parent to my original post). While this works, it's a pain if you don't have a calculator handy.
Most of my calculators do have a Answer->Fraction button, and it reduces the fraction. However, it overflows a surprising amount of the time. Also, I don't like being reliant on my calculator. I always have a pen in my pocket and paper is usually available, but I often don't have my calculator on me.
Also, avoiding the chance of rounding errors by staying in reduced fractions is a good thing, especially when you are calculating a value that is the difference between two large numbers.
Because calculator emulation software for PDAs sucks. Every single package is terrible. They're feature incomplete toys that are one notch above a four-function.
s/suffer/enjoy/
When you figure out how to use my 4 palm buttons in place of the 83 keys on my calculator, I'll be all for this "emulator" of yours.
Look further down the page...
I own a HP49G+ since some weeks. I had a HP48SX beforehand and upgraded because the 49G+ is a lot faster and has a lot more builtin functions.
With the software I am very pleased, the calculator does all what I expect.
But the packaging, especially the keypad is PURE SHIT! The calculator is manufactured in China and it also feels like this. Compared to the HP48 this is a HUGE step back.
The keypad is very, very noisy, which is a problem because neighbours are disturbed by the loud keyclicks.
What's even worse, the keys are not reliable: You hear the keyclick but there is no input. This leads to a *lot* of typing errors. Around every 5'th keypress is missed, so you always have to control the input on the display.
When spending $150 for a calculator I just don't expect a packaging/keyboard worse than many $9.99.- calculators. Shame on HP!
There are rumours that some newer models have an improved keyboard but this cannot be confirmed. HP itself denies this obvious misdesign, denies that there are better keyboards built into newer versions of the HP49G and does not offer a solution.
So - before buying such a calculator, test the keyboard and make sure that it works.
there is a good chance they will exchange it. ring the number in the manual.
I believe that's my line, stranger...</mccoy>
Some people may call me a perennialist prick, but perhaps some of the struggles that some people have in math is not only that math just isn't their subject, but they tend to actively avoid it and toss me the "I don't get it" attitude, especially when they aren't trying. It is one thing for a student to have difficulty understanding some math, but it is different when they take the defeatist attitude. For these certain students, if they had a choice, they wouldn't do anything. Sometimes, there are just some things that we teachers just need to require. I want to make sure that all students take some knowledge from my classroom. If certain students refuse to have anything to do with math, I am not going to give them a free pass.
Now, on a side note, my 8-year-old nephew (well, 8 at the time) picked up my HP 49 to play with it. He is decent at math, though it is definitely not his favorite subject. Now after a little help from me, he caught on to RPN pretty quickly. Now, I am sure that he was most interested in getting the calculator to work as he expects. I don't think learning RPN would be too difficult for most students.
Giving a student an RPN calculator to work/play with is definitely a Constructivist moment, though.
Well, that's enough rambling for me....
Calling atheism and agnosticism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
My favorite quote: "Where's the equals?"
You know, I just had a co-worker say that to me the other day when they were trying to use my TI-89. Of course, they also tried to use RPN on it too...
Things to do today: See list of things to do yesterday
Long Answer:
FORTH has always been both interpreted and compiled.. You have the choice.
And it can be its own OS, still being tiny. Check out some of the embedded versions.
While there are graphical extensions these days for many versions, it's still pretty much relegated to the embedded scene ( controllers, PC-BIOS, etc ) but its still much alive out there.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Apparently one of these gentlemen was responsible for writing, all on his own, an open-source replacement OS for the HP-48 called "MetaKernel". It was so much better/faster than the built-in software that HP licensed it for use in the HP-49 series.
So there's no problem with the HP emulation from an OS perspective.
Clear, Dark Skies
Oh, it should also have built-in 802.11g WiFi & IEEE1394.b. :)
And If I can use it to control the TV remotely, that'd be great, thanks.
For along time, HP calculators with the Infrared transfer would do this. They cut out this feature when TV's got put in all the class rooms. You know that one guy with the HP calculator could always turn the TV on and off. I could see lots of class room uses for wireless in an HP cal.
On the desktop, that so many programmers have a calculator next to their computer is...well, it's sad really. It's either that they can't find an affordable way to use the monstrous machine in the front of them for off-the-cuff calculations, or that there isn't any blindingly easy to use and affordable software to do just that.
As for pocket calculators, even the most bottom end handheld PC is more powerful than just about any calculator. It doesn't matter if RPN calculators go away, you just run an RPN calculator "emulator" on your handheld. And emulator is really the wrong word here, because I'd hope you could do more advanced stuff with your handheld than with a calculator.
I use rpc on my computer all the time. It's not graphing, it's not pretty, but it's a very capable RPN calculator, and makes a great complimentary computing device to my slide rule(s).
you're a dick
about all I would add is some simple programming functionality so I can do basic field calculations when I'm on site or compute payments when haggling over the price of a car.
But yea, what made the old HP's great what that they were durable and well featured *calculators*. I used to have a 42-CV, which I could do basic matrix calculations on. This saved me a trip to the terminals in college. Nowadays I have a 42s that I *don't* loan out.
If I got to do anything more complex than that, I'd just as soon be at my desktop where I can take my time and think about it anyways.
A goal is a dream with a deadline
My 32 E from highschool is still great. Though the recharable battery pack has long since died, and its a bit too small to use AA cells..
The 41C from college is 100%.. And of course the one i use now, a 48sx, but it isnt too old.. 8 or 9 years perhaps...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I'm still looking for a NON-programmable RPN to use on examinations where programmable calculators are forbidden.
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Perhaps the OpenRPN group will hear my plea.
--- Corporations Are A Fad.
Great. Here come the TI/HP flamewars.
I think you mean: Started the TI/HP flamewars have.
I spent $120 on an HP48G in 1999. It broke in 2004 after falling 20 ft but even though I didn't really need it anymore, spent another $100 on an HP48GII merely because the HP48G interface was so useful exactly the way it was designed, there was no other replacement. That's dedication.
Today's kids just don't know how easy they've got it. When I was a lad, we used a slide rule, and we liked it! My favorite moment in Apollo 13 was when one of the engineers was shown calculating the aborted moon mission's return on a slide rule.
But seriously, most of the population could get by just fine on a four-function calculator. The best use I have found for my RPN calculator is that my wife refuses to borrow it.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
The "load up the operands" and, at the end, execute multiple operators reminds me of the German language.
Kind of like,
[I wish I could find a worthy replacement for my HP-15C but the newer models seem to have sacrificed the "landscape" form factor.]
"Provided by the management for your protection."