Gentoo for Mac OS X Released

joeljkp writes "According to today's Gentoo Weekly News, Gentoo has released a new project: Gentoo MacOS (sic). This new distribution adds Portage, Gentoo's package manager, to Mac OS X, among other things."

Comments

Cool

[AlexanderYoshi]

How long until I can get Gentoo for my Xbox?

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

GentooX. Welcome back to 2002.

Re:Cool

[Wally Fenderson]

Still waiting for the commodore 64 version, myself.

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

there already is a distribution for xbox that is based on gentoo.
its called http://gentoox.shallax.com/

-Jonathan

Re:Cool

[mirko]

Hi Junis !
Long time no see :)

Re:Cool

[Anubis350]

I run debian (xebian) on mine, but there is a gentoo (gentoox) distro out. check out xbox-linux.org, you might find it pretty cool

Re:Cool

[garethwi]

That's already been released ... in Japan.

Re:Cool

[snuffdiddy23]

Shallax is the name of the xbox gentoo distribution, which has been out for several months, if not approaching a year.

Re:Cool

[t1mmy]

sys-kernel/xbox-sources are already in portage, there's a live CD nearing completion and the xfree patches should be making their way in soon.

Full Text (images already /.'ed)

[Anonymous Coward]

Gentoo News
-----------

"Apple, we have a problem" - Gentoo MacOS X Released

Figure 1.1: Derived from Apple's 'Redmond, we have a problem' campaign:
The Gentoo MacOS announcement
http://www.gentoo.org/images/gwn/200 40719_macos_pr oblem.png

Almost exactly one year after the idea of porting Portage to MacOS X came
up - and the joint Metapkg initiative[1] between Fink, Darwinports and
Gentoo took off - a 20-head-strong developer team around Pieter van den
Abeele[2] (strategic lead) and Daniel Ostrow[3] (operational) is now ready
to release an extraordinary beast into the wild: Gentoo MacOS. They
deliver on a promise no other Linux distribution has been daring enough to
make yet: Portage on MacOS is now fully operational, seamlessly integrated
as a package manager in a non-Linux operating system. It initially serves
the main purpose of an SDK for inclusion of new packages, testing and
patching. Granted, KDE isn't ported yet, but make no mistake: Gentoo MacOS
is ready for consumption by Macintosh users who want, say, scientific DTP
via TeX, something they will now be able to simply emerge in OS X just
like they'd do in Gentoo Linux."Right now it's a tool to install lots of
commonly requested applications on OS X", explains Pieter van den Abeele.
"But in a few months, we'll have a port system that builds Darwin from
scratch, provides a standardised lookup and installation routine for
Dashboard widgets[4], enhancements and tools like the Desktop Manager[5]
and many, many more popular OS X applications." Downloading the Gentoo
MacOS Installer provides users with a patched portage, its tree, and the
Python modules. It sets environment variables and demands a bootstrapping
shell script to be run before the first emerge that detects the operating
system (Panther or Tiger), chooses the relevant profiles and injects every
application it finds already installed in MacOS X.

1. http://www.metapkg.org
2. pvdabeel gentoo.org
3. dostrow gentoo.org
4. http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html
5. http://wsmanager.sourceforge.net/

Figure 1.2: Taming the Tiger with a double-click: The Gentoo MacOS
Installer
http://www.gentoo.org/images/gwn /20040719_macos_in staller.png

Since Gentoo's own GCC ebuild for MacOS X isn't ready yet, compiling is
currently done using the Xcode development tools[6] which include GCC 3.3
provided by Apple. "People already on Tiger can experiment with GCC 3.5",
adds Pieter. Tiger, the new release of MacOS X, is due in 2005 with its
brandnew database filesystem Spotlight[7], modernised video services and
many other features. The Gentoo MacOS developers are busy polishing the
knobs (a Cocoa user interface is part of the plan), getting iSync[8]
integration to work (emerge an application on one machine, automatically
replicate onto all other Macs in a LAN), right down to making Catalyst
produce Darwin LiveCDs... "But first the cool stuff, then Darwin",
chuckles strategic lead Pieter. Even though his team is already larger
than the entire Gentoo Linux PPC developer group, they still train new
devs almost daily, and whoever wants to help with the project is very
welcome to get in touch. The public Wiki[9] holds installation
instructions and serves as a reporting tool for packages outside of
Portage that already compile without bombing out. The Gentoo MacOS
Installer can be downloaded from here[10].

6. http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/xcode.html
7. http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/spotlighttech.ht ml
8. http://www.apple.com/isync/
9. http://gentoo-wiki.com/Gentoo_MacOS
10. http://www.metadistribution.org/macos/
Full size (1024x768) screenshots of the Gentoo MacOS installation
procedure:
* Installer starts[11]
* Detection of OS version and installed software[12]
* Still busy injecting detected

Re:Full Text (images already /.'ed)

[Jeremy Erwin]

I thought the w3 browser and its hack of numbering links went out of fashion some time ago.

Re:Full Text (images already /.'ed)

[Elwood P Dowd]

Tiger, the new release of MacOS X, is due in 2005 with its brand new database filesystem Spotlight[7], modernised video services and many other features.

It's not a database filesystem. I wrote an entry in my journal on the subject, and I'd quote it here if /. weren't so laggy right now. But Spotlight is just indexing the same metadata that is in HFS+ under Jaguar, plus data that it pulls out of the file, not out of the filesystem. There is significant improvement in the mechanism and the interface, but it is not a "database filesystem."

Comparing WinFS and Spotlight is like comparing .NET and .Mac - Apple is delivering the features that end users will receive from MS's pie in the sky technology, without implementing the actual technology. (And Jobs actually compared WinFS to Spotlight in the keynote, just as he actually compared .NET to .Mac in the keynote that killed iTools.)

No, I'm not dissing Apple and I'm not dissing Microsoft. I'm just saying...

Re:Full Text (images already /.'ed)

[loosifer]

But Spotlight is just indexing the same metadata that is in HFS+ under Jaguar, plus data that it pulls out of the file, not out of the filesystem. There is significant improvement in the mechanism and the interface, but it is not a "database filesystem."

As far as I can tell, that is incorrect; Dominic (the authoer of BeFS) has added additional metadata capabilities to HFS+, so Spotlight is actually 1) indexing that metadata, and 2) using interpreters to pull and index data from various file formats. See those post, for instance. While I agree that this does not create a true database filesystem, I would say that it's close to what BeOS had, which is the closest anyone has come.

I must admit interest in MS's claim that they're going to create a true database filesystem; while it is obviously technically feasible, it's just as stupid now as it was years ago when Be decided to back off theirs. Thus, I expect MS to produce a solution that does what they said it would do while sucking so much that no one uses it. It will be interesting to watch.

As to the claim that Apple is just doing all front-end stuff while MS is actually doing technology, I call baloney on that one. Apple has been good recently at creating and then utilyzing really good technology (although it's usually protocols, not servers). All of the technology available via .Mac is available to everyone, even if the servers themselves aren't. I can (and did) create a WebDAV server to store and share my calendars, and I can mount this WebDAV server as a local filesystem. Rendezvous/Zeroconf is another good example of a tech that Apple has developed, championed, and then been a real leader on.

I agree that there are big differences, though: Spotlight is based on proven technology and will surely arrive in 2005, while WinFS is a huge gamble, will increase costs dramatically (both licensing and maintenance), and will also arrive no earlier than 2006, without actually being based on proven tech at all. If their history is anything to go by, it will be 2010 or so before WinFS is usable.

Re:Full Text (images already /.'ed)

[Qamelian]

"while WinFS is a huge gamble, will increase costs dramatically (both licensing and maintenance), and will also arrive no earlier than 2006, without actually being based on proven tech at all. If their history is anything to go by, it will be 2010 or so before WinFS is usable."

MS has already announced that WinFS is being withdrawn from Longhorn along with several other technologies, all of which have now been pushed back to the following Windows release("Blackcomb"). This was a result of basically two factors. First, there were too many difficulties in hitting the target dates unless some items were dropped. Second, too many third-party developers were at best apathetic over the concept of supporting some of the features, most notably Microsoft's "Trusted Computing" platform.

Re:Full Text (images already /.'ed)

[hackstraw]

I must admit interest in MS's claim that they're going to create a true database filesystem; while it is obviously technically feasible, it's just as stupid now as it was years ago when Be decided to back off theirs.

I disagree. I believe that true database filesystems will be a big thing for desktops/business environments in the future.

Problem: We have bunches of word processor files, spreadsheets, etc. Google could have found them in less than 1 sec if they were on the web, but we have to wait long times to find them on our computer, and longer times if they are somewhere else on our LAN.

This is a real problem that needs some kind of solution. Rumor has it that Google will sell you client/server software to make this happen on your LAN. MS is doing this with WinFS, Others are doing nothing.

The key to making this work is to have it as _extra_ data available to a file, and the ability to completely turn it off. I belive that WinFS has these 2 features.

What is wrong with having the option to have an automatically updated and searchable filesystem data on your machine or better your LAN?

This will be even hotter if there are APIs to add custom hooks for certain files.

To me this is the best (only?) inovation that MS has come up with, and I believe that this will be a _big_ feature that will be promptly replicated by the open source community and by Apple.

Re:Full Text (images already /.'ed)

[Elwood P Dowd]

I'd already read the article you link to. It is what I base my point on. There are additional metadata capabilities in Tiger, but they are not part of the fileystem. Your ID3 tags are not being stored in HFS+ metadata. Everyone who thinks that HFS+ will have user-extendable metadata or a database-driven filesystem will be disappointed. It is not a database filesystem. That's perfectly OK with me.

As to the claim that Apple is just doing all front-end stuff while MS is actually doing technology, I call baloney on that one.

You seem to misunderstand. I called it MS's "pie in the sky" technology for a reason. My analogy is a good one.

I agree that there are big differences, though: Spotlight is based on proven technology and will surely arrive in 2005, while WinFS is a huge gamble, will increase costs dramatically (both licensing and maintenance), and will also arrive no earlier than 2006, without actually being based on proven tech at all.

You say that as if you had made the point, rather than me.

Re:Full Text (images already /.'ed)

[Elwood P Dowd]

What is wrong with having the option to have an automatically updated and searchable filesystem data on your machine or better your LAN?

You have missed his point.

There are several ways to implement the feature you describe. One is with a database-driven filesystem. One is with an ordinary filesystem that is adequately indexed. Apple looks to have implemented very good indexing of an ordinary filesystem.

Spotlight will give you all the features you describe, but it will not be a database-driven filesystem.

WinFS would be a database-driven filesystem, which may deliver significantly more powerful features to developers, but it will not be deployed until long, long after Spotlight. If ever.

Re:Full Text (images already /.'ed)

[senatorpjt]

The Gentoo MacOS developers are busy polishing the
knobs

How are they ever going to finish it if they're spending all day polishing their knobs?

Re:Full Text (images already /.'ed)

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's just part of a long-standing Microsoft strategy of vapourware. They announce features ahead of time so that the PHBs are less likely to choose a competitor that has a short-term advantage, and then scale back on features closer to the release date. So-called "WinFS" has been touted as an upcoming feature for a few versions already. Before that, every version of Windows released since Windows 95 was suppsed to be "the" uncrashable Windows.

Re:Full Text (images already /.'ed)

[samrolken]

Wrong.

Read up. WinFS will very much be a part of Longhorn.

Re:Full Text (images already /.'ed)

[YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT]

Rumor has it that Google will sell you client/server software to make this happen on your LAN.

No rumour - I suspect this is a reference to the Google Search Appliance. You just need to make your resources, as far as I know, accessible via http.

YLFI

Server, we have a problem

[Petronius]

3 posts and it's already slashdotted. nice.

I see that it's a catchy headline, but ...

[burgburgburg]

how exactly is this a problem for Apple?

Re:I see that it's a catchy headline, but ...

[homer_ca]

or you could run GNU and other open source software on Windows. There's already a Gentoo on Cygwin project too.

Re:I see that it's a catchy headline, but ...

[LMCBoy]

It's a poke at Apple's "Redmond, we have a problem" marketing campaign". It's funny, laugh.

Oh well, maybe it should have been "Cupertino, we have a problem".

Re:I see that it's a catchy headline, but ...

[celerityfm]

Nono, that's Konfabulator's line...

http://www.konfabulator.com/

sortof.

Re:I see that it's a catchy headline, but ...

[TheDredd]

It's funny, laugh.

It will be even funnier when Apple sues the hell out of Gentoo for using the trademarked name MacOS :)

Yea, and?

[soybean]

What does this do that fink doesn't already (for the last few years) do?

Re:Yea, and?

[hunterx11]

This one goes to 11.

Re:Yea, and?

[justforaday]

What does this do that fink doesn't already (for the last few years) do?

Well, this one can compile the packages from source. Oh wait, Fink already does that...Yeah, how does this really differ from the Fink project, other than being based on Gentoo's portage system?

Re:Yea, and?

[Otter]

I could well just be missing something, but I've had a lot of problems with the selection granularity in fink -- e.g. trying to build x-chat without dragging in all of GNOME. USE flags would be a very nice alternative.

Re:Yea, and?

[for_usenet]

One thing I am hoping it can do is integrate better with OS X's application/library packing system. I do a little development with X and Motif, and for a while, I was using Apple's X11 + Darwinports' Motif. However, due to library problems somewhere along the way, I had to switch to fink's openmotif. I was hoping for a way I could keep track of all installed apps and libs. Fink is nice, but it is like having a second independent OS/system within OS X.

Now, for the icing on the cake, it would be nice if folks would think about coding the GUIs in their apps in cross-platform toolkits (wxWidgets, FLTK, etc), so we could have truly native apps and hooks into whatever OS we are using, but alas, I dream ... :)

Re:Yea, and?

[Massacrifice]

I recently moved bask from Gentoo-PPC to Mac OS X + Fink lately after my Linux HD crashed, so I'll tell you what I am missing the most about Gentoo.

First, there are a quite a bunch of advanced build options in Portage that are not available under Fink (see /etc/make.conf). USE variable, easy distcc, easy ccache, powerful package query... These are things that you can't go without once you've tried them.

Fink is nice, but its package tree is smaller and less up to date than Portage is. Besides, nobody will prevent you from having both.

Apart from Portage, Gentoo offers multiple system management facilities. I don't know if these will be ported, but things like rc-update (init script management) and java-config really help.

Finally, I think that what will set Gentoo-MacOS apart from Fink is the number of developper and community size. That is something that cannot be duplicated.

Re:Yea, and?

[obirt]

or NetBSD's pkgsrc.

Re:Yea, and?

[Kethinov]

Yes! Mod parent up to uh +6! I DESPISE Fink, and Darwinports left my underwhelmed. Portage on OS X has been a pipe dream for me and now it's been realized! My favorite Linux package manager on my favorite *nix OS! I think I'm going to have a nerdgasm!

Re:Yea, and?

[devphaeton]

This one goes to 11

I actually used to have a guitar amp that went to 11.

For real.

It was a POS Quantum Terminator 25R, and "11" didn't mean anything other than "The low end of the Potentiometer", but you know...

Also, Marshall made some amplifiers (Dual Super Lead, iirc) that went to 25...

They are a decendent of the Non-Master non-plexi that the d00d in Spinal Tap was saying "it goes to 11!"

Re:Yea, and?

[mccare]

FINALLY!

We've got multiple gentoo boxes and work exclusively on macs and this is at last a very good package manager that was missing from osx.. and here is the answer :-)

• Keyword support
  
  just set your USE flags correctly and you won't be building 50 packages when trying to install e.g. postgres (which has optional java support, optional perl support optional python support, which in turn will build X11 because some small utility needs X11). Fink would require one package for each variant, in portage you just set
  
  USE="-X11 -java -perl -python"
  
  and all the optional stuff won't build.
• have platform specific CFLAGS and make flags (the -j2)
• you can switch to unstable (or development packages) for each package you want to install:
  
  ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86" emerge apache
  
  and it would also consider the "not stable" apache.
  
• hopefully have a well maintained package tree. Almost all packages in fink that are recent are in the "unstable" branch
• mask single versions that you don't want or that are known
  to be broken

Re:Yea, and?

[dmalloc]

First, there are a quite a bunch of advanced build options in Portage that are not available under Fink (see /etc/make.conf). USE variable, easy distcc, easy ccache, powerful package query

While I can very much understand that you are missing these "features" we have chosen to deliberately not offer them. There are long threads and discussions on the Fink mailing lists why we do not offer such a system. Distcc integration is being worked on and there is already a patch for it. By installing ccache-default you will use ccachce by default, so I do nto quite see how that could be getting any easier :)

its package tree is smaller and less up to date than Portage is

That is something which is really up to you and how well you nag the maitainers of the packages you use to keep them up to date. Some applications aren't exactly trivial to maitain, their porting is a lot of work and it is yet to be seen if the portage tree can really stick up to its promise.

set Gentoo-MacOS apart from Fink is the number of developper and community size. That is something that cannot be duplicated.

I am not quite sure if we are still talking about Portage running on TOP of Mac OS X, because if it boils down to that, then our community size and the community that is using Fink, along with the established background we have will be hard to beat, even for Gentoo. This is of course no race and no competition, after all Fink is part and initiated the metapkg offensive (I should know I came up with the intial idea :)

emerge karmawhore

[Stevyn]

Gentoo is one of the best distros out there. I use it on x86 and it was easy to install and set up. I had more trouble on mandrake than on gentoo. The best thing it has going for it is portage. This system of automatically downloading and compiling software is only appriciated when you've gone through RPM hell or dependency hell when compiling from scratch. I was using mandrake previously, and this is definately faster. I encourage everyone who uses a distro like mandrake, fedora, or SuSE to look into gentoo.

I've only been using linux for a few months and gentoo for a week or so but I already see how well produced it is. I used to get annoyed at gentoo zealots, but I see what they were talking about.

Oh, and the compiling software isn't that bad. I've spent more time searching for packages and dependecies than typing "emerge k3b". Don't believe all the hype of course, but don't believe the FUD either. Gentoo is where it's at!

Now to make this a little more on-topic, I'm happy that gentoo is trying to make more headway into apple hardware. I think that this will only encourage apple to help and contribute to the OSS community even more. MacOS is probably the most refined modern operating system, but giving it a little more competition can't hurt.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[torpor]

I think that this will only encourage apple to help and contribute to the OSS community even more.

Maybe after Tiger, we'll see Apple work to include Gentoo portage scripts in the base install ... Gentoo really is a superlative unix-software management system.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Bold Marauder]

Personally, on x86 I had far more problems with setting up gentoo (I have to compile a kernel during the installation? how fucked up is that?) than I ever had with using packages under mandrake (particularly when using easy urpmi.

I mean, different stroke for different folks, certainly. But gentoo's strenth is its' ability to squeeze 0.0008 percent more processing power out of your 2.4ghz computer; not ease of use or installation. That arena is where (imho) mandrake really shines.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Joseph Vigneau]

gentoo's strenth is its' ability to squeeze 0.0008 percent more processing power out of your 2.4ghz computer

Actually, that is not Gentoo's primary strength. Its strength is from the amount of flexibility that portage provides for package dependency. With binary-oriented distributions, you are forced to use the same configuration settings that were chosen by the package maintainer. Portage has the concept of "USES", which is basically a list of flags that the build uses to figure out what options to use during compilation. For example, many packages can be integrated with GNOME. I don't use GNOME. With other distributions, if the package was built with GNOME dependencies, I'd be forced to install GNOME. If the package was built without GNOME, some GNOME user wouldn't be able to take advantage of GNOME-specific features. With Portage, you can specify via the USES variable whether or not you want to have a dependancy on GNOME or not. As a side effect, you get the CPU-optimization "for free".

Re:emerge karmawhore

[bob670]

I'm going to agree with you on all points. I bought a Shuttle SK41G, GeForce4, Athlon XP 2000+ and 2x256 DDR a few weeks ago. From out of the box, assembly time and then OS install was about one hour 15 minutes with all hardware recognized correctly, all updates installed and a usable desktop, office suite, Internet tools, etc... A quick install of the nVidia driver updates and some extra software gooodness via urpmi and I was off and running in about 90 minutes.

Compared to a couple days to get the same results with Gentoo, which is an outstanding distro, but not the distro to break Linux onto the mainstream desktop. Any casual PC user who has built a gaming PC or even tinkered around with his Dell could get Mandrake up and usable in less than an hour, Gentoo however is another story. Of course Gentoo wasn't aimed at that market, but the parent poster can't possibly paint Gentoo as easy to install and not expect some rebuttals.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Sesse]

No, you would not be forced to install GNOME, you would be forced to install a few GNOME libraries, which would occupy a few megabytes and basically not be in your way otherwise. That is not really a big problem unless you make it one.

/* Steinar */

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Zapdos]

How f..cked up is mandrake in order to install sdl-dev i have to install arts-dev wich of course needs kde-libs-dev etc.. etc..
Now does sdl really need arts? Nope it was a packaging decision made for you by Mandrake. In order to feed the need of the unwashed masses that is what they have to do.

Gentoo's strengths are many:
1. Better optimizations
2. USE statements allow you to fine tune your system libraries
3. Upgrades to the latest version is as simple as using emerge.
4. etc...

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Otter]

Personally, on x86 I had far more problems with setting up gentoo (I have to compile a kernel during the installation? how fucked up is that?) than I ever had with using packages under mandrake (particularly when using easy urpmi.

That's true, but once the installation is done, I've found maintaining Gentoo software and services far easier than maintenance on Mandrake. YMMV, but I've never had good luck with any of the RPM-based systems. The speed issues are what everyone associates with Gentoo, but that's mostly illusory.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[javiercero]

He was just giving an example, you anal retentive geek....

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Mr.Ned]

While in a binary distribution you are forced to use the ./configure settings of the maintainer, that's not always incompatible with compartmentalizing part of software. For example, on Debian, if I look at postfix packages, I see this:

postfix - A high-performance mail transport agent
postfix-dev - Postfix loadable modules development environment
postfix-doc - Postfix documentation
postfix-ldap - LDAP map support for Postfix
postfix-mysql - MYSQL map support for Postfix
postfix-pcre - PCRE map support for Postfix
postfix-pgsql - PGSQL map support for Postfix
postfix-tls - TLS and SASL support for Postfix

In Gentoo I would put LDAP, MYSQL, POSTGRES, or something similar in my USE flags. I can accomplish the same thing with binary packages if they are properly made, as in the example of postfix - if I want to add LDAP support, I can just install that. The same thing goes for desktop packages - there are quite a few -gnome packages in the Debian archives, and I'm sure you'd find the same thing for Red Hat, SuSE, Mandrake, or any of the others.

It's just a different approach to the same concept. Don't knock binary distributions as inflexible.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[kashani]

circa 1996 here. Gentoo is not without minor pain on the install, but it's hardly a time waster. Use GRP which includes precompiled packages, add a few use variables, add the packages you need (postfix, apache, mysql, etc) come back in an hour, and you're done. And it stays that way going forward. It's not like you have to sit there and stare at it while compiles.

Figuring out how to use Redhat's moronic RPM syntax, now that's a time waste.
echo "/dev-php/mod_php oracle" >> /etc/portage/package.use
emerge mod_php
and reading slashdot while it compiles is not.

kashani

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Sloppy]

Compiling everything will take more time than you will ever save by adding a few optimizations!

Sorry, but my time is valuable

Your time is valuable, but the computer's time is not. I recommend you use a program called "gcc" to compile, instead of manually translating C into machine language by hand. What this will allow you to do, is have the computer do all this compiling work, while you can do anything you want (write a program, sleep, watch a movie, drink beer, hang out under the escalator at the mall and try to look up girls' dresses, send radio messages to the UFOs to try to get them to return Elvis -- almost anything!), without it taking any of your time.

Linux has changed a lot since 1957. I'm tellin' ya, these fully automated compilers are the shit!!

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Noksagt]

Personally, on x86 I had far more problems with setting up gentoo (I have to compile a kernel during the installation? how fucked up is that?)
If you're going to post flamebait, at least get the facts right. You don't have to compile the gentoo kernel during installation. So nothing is "fucked up." You just didn't read the first page of installation docs that describe a "stage 3" install.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Sweetshark]

But gentoo's strenth is its' ability to squeeze 0.0008 percent more processing power out of your 2.4ghz computer;
Who is the FUD spreading karmawhore here? Come on guys, it is getting old.
not ease of use or installation. That arena is where (imho) mandrake really shines.
Installation: Mandrake and SuSE are easier of cause for a single desktop setup. But if you have a few more machines (of the same type), it might even be easier to get a good setup with gentoo (compile once, emerge -k everywhere)
Ease of use: Maybe for two months. After you do a update of your kernel and your nvidia-driver fails to work or something else like that. After two month debian and gentoo are far easier to manage than Mandrake or SuSE.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Matheus Villela]

Here is a pratical view for what you said:

root@emulacao matheus # USE="kerberos samba -berkdb" emerge -av openldap

These are the packages that I would merge, in order:

Calculating dependencies ...done!
[ebuild N ] app-crypt/mit-krb5-1.3.3-r1 -krb4 -static 6,210 kB
[ebuild R ] net-nds/openldap-2.1.26 -berkdb +crypt -debug +gdbm -ipv6 +kerberos -odbc +perl +readline +samba -sasl -slp +ssl +tcpd 0 kB

Total size of downloads: 6,210 kB

Do you want me to merge these packages? [Yes/No]

And here my global USE flags:

USE="X 3dnow sse mmx 3dnowext alsa opengl sdl jpeg png avi mpeg gnome gtk2 -java -hardened -kde -qt -arts mysql php -pie -static"

Gentoo is great, of course isn't always perfect, an example is with the xorg/xfree, whem xorg come out the portage was crazy, many apps was looking to xfree instead virtual/x11 to resolve dependencies, but in a few weeks everything becomes ok.

I use Gentoo for time_i_use_linux - 1 month
time_i_use_linux = 1 year

And i can't see nothing in other distro that i don't have in my gentoo, portage is fantastic :)

Re:emerge karmawhore

[cubic6]

Actually, you still have to compile a kernel for a stage3. You don't have to *configure* it, because you can opt to use genkernel. You still have to compile it either way.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Noksagt]

Right. Sorry. Stage 3 installs the base system for you. As noted by another poster, there are ebuilds of binary kernels.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer to see things like gaim - plugin based. No need of "USE flags". If you need to recompile to personalize your software, well, that software is crap, it should allow you to be configured at runtime not at compile time.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[amightywind]

I'm going to agree with you on all points. I bought a Shuttle SK41G, GeForce4, Athlon XP 2000+ and 2x256 DDR a few weeks ago.

Why would you get such nice components and then get such a lousy CPU? An Athlon XP 2800+ costs about $30 more.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[dosius]

I have no trouble using a vanilla 2.4.20 on RH8.

Moll.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[ncc74656]

Actually, you still have to compile a kernel for a stage3. You don't have to *configure* it, because you can opt to use genkernel. You still have to compile it either way.

...and compiling the kernel takes what on modern hardware? 5 minutes, maybe? It's something that I always did even with Slackware, SuSE, etc., so it's nothing new to me. I've had Win2K boxes take longer to boot into safe mode than that.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Ryan Huddleston]

Actually, you can't pick a precompiled kernel. You can get a precompiled base system, yes, but even with a stage 3 install you still need to compile a kernel.

You CAN use genkernel, which compiles a kernel for you that can be used on most systems using hotplug to insert the correct modules, but it certainly is not precompiled.

Look here for details.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[yo_tuco]

"... After you do a update of your kernel and your nvidia-driver fails to work or something else like that...."

In this scenario, it is still easy in SuSE to get your nVidia driver going again. Just use YaST update and tell it to reinstall the driver again and you're going in no time. I do agree, though, Gentoo updates are nice and easy once you're setup. I use Gentoo on my PowerBook and am satisfied with it.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Woody77]

What made me leave red-hat was actually the pain and suffering involved with installing source-code provided drivers for my printer (hp inkjet). It required a newer version of Ghostscript than I could get via an rpm.

And the source version of Ghostscript installed to a different place than RedHat had deemed was appropriate. And uninstalling the binary version either broke everything, or didn't work, depending on how I went about doing it.

Eventually, I hacked away at it long enough to get it to work.

Gentoo uses the source's own ./configure and install scripts. Things go where the developers meant them to go, which means that if I need to get a different version, or patch things on my own, I can do that with a minimum of pain.

Initial install from Stage1 is slow, and a PITA, granted. But I spend less time in front of the computer than I did with an install of RedHat where I attempted to choose what I wanted installed. Downloading over a slow connection is rough, but my computer doesn't need to sleep or go to work, so it really doesn't bother me. For home use, I don't mind a 6-hour compile time, I'm not baby-sitting it through it. It just does it.

But once I've got the system installed, maintainance is cake, especially for security patches.

Another nice benefit is that Redhat was bumping revs at an insane speed, and rpms for RH9 wouldn't work with RH7. Not a problem with portage. With portage, it's what packages I have installed, not which version of the OS. And I can upgrade the whole box to the latest sources with a single command.

And no, my CFLAGS only fit on one line.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[mabinogi]

And the funny thing about that is, that software that did allow that, would be nice and modular when in binary form, but those compiling source would still need the source to all the dependancies....so Gentoo would still be in a worse situation.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Joseph Vigneau]

I can accomplish the same thing with binary packages if they are properly made, as in the example of postfix

I agree- Debian was my distribution of choice for years. But this level of packaging is all too rare, and it ultimately drove me away from using Debian in favor of Gentoo. For example, take gaim. The Debian package requires the ESD library. The unstable package requires libaspell. I don't use either. Unless I downloaded the source package, tweaked the build files, and compiled it, I would have to install these extra packages that I may not want to have on my system for one reason or another.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Sweetshark]

Just use YaST update ...
You mean YOU (YaST online update)?
Yeah, thats exactly what I did on the SuSE machines. It failed in 75% of the cases.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Anonymous Coward]

it's not much better on Gentoo.

Gaim requires NSS and NSPR which is used for MSN stuff when I don't even have an MSN account.

Solution: I have to edit the ebuild and put a copy in my local overlay for every gaim release I want to upgrade to.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[pizza_milkshake]

I've found maintaining Gentoo software and services far easier than maintenance on Mandrake.

EXACTLY. maintenance is the hardest part. i've found that mandrake will install relatively cleanly, but get worse as months go on, like a windows install. finally, it becomes so cluttered with orphaned files and multiple versions of the same library floating around that i end up doing a re-install. it may well be possible to maintain an rpm-based distro cleanly, but i don't want to spend the time nor effort tracking down every dependency, i want software that will keep track of itself for me. gentoo's portage isn't perfect, but it is pretty clean and insanely easy to pick up.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[MarcQuadra]

I have to compile a kernel during the installation? how fucked up is that?

That's the FIRST THING you should do to a system when you get it! Building the kernel for your needs is a crucial part of getting friendly with your system and enabling features you want. It's also a great way to reduce all the junk that the stock kernel likely loaded on.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[zsau]

Last time I installed Gentoo (1.4 I think, but I'm on Slackware now), it _was_ easy to install. Just time consuming and involved lots of instruction-following. It just so happened that the instructions I followed were from a browser window instead of built-in to the install system.

Now, of course, that's not to say Gentoo is for everyone. Gentoo is most emphatically *not* for everyone. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that Gentoo is probably for nearly no-one. But that doesn't mean the installation is hard.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[nagora]

He was just giving an example, you anal retentive geek....

On Slashdot?! He must have faked his ID or something.

TWW

Re:emerge karmawhore

[blogeasy]

I use Mac OS X exclusively for development, but for our servers we've been looking for a good distribution of linux. After trying out several different ones we came across gentoo and now we've switched all of our servers to gentoo including our latest file sharing service. I must say that it is a nice OS and I wouldn't mind even trying out on one of my macs.

Re:emerge karmawhore

[Ricwot]

Would a GUI installer with hardware detedtion not be good for beginners with a gui frontend for userland application installation for portage?

Gentoo MacOS?

[Anonymous Coward]

um, isn't that 'Gentoo MacOS' a tad misleading? It's like calling x86 Linux 'Linux Windows'

Re:Gentoo MacOS?

[Noksagt]

um, isn't that 'Gentoo MacOS' a tad misleading? It's like calling x86 Linux 'Linux Windows'
No--this isn't an OS (gentoo has run on the Mac hardware for sometime). Rather it is a native OS X port of portage and other gentoo utilities. It would be like calling cygwin "cygwin" (in other words Cygnus + GNU on windows).

Re:Gentoo MacOS?

[raddan]

Well, considering that the only important difference between Gentoo, and, say, Slackware, is the fact that Gentoo has the Portage package management system, I'd say no. Although I would have preferred something more along the lines of "Portage MacOS".

Re:Gentoo MacOS?

[keesh]

Not really. Gentoo isn't limited to Linux -- the Gentoo/Linux name was dropped a long time ago. There're ports underway for *BSD, OSX and possibly IRIX.

Re:Gentoo MacOS?

[DaCool42]

Perhaps "Portage MacOS X" would make more sense?

Am I missing something?

[Moofie]

I read that blurb, and I still don't know what the significance of this release is.

"Right now, you can use it to install TeX! Someday, you might be able to install some other stuff!"

I mean, I suppose this is kool and the gang, but what is the problem that is being solved here? Maybe I'm just not clear on the concept.

Re:Am I missing something?

[Hatta]

Portage ebuilds are easier to put together than dpkg packages for fink. They're just bash scripts. So eventually there may be more packages available through this system. USE flags will also come in handy.

Re:Am I missing something?

[Moofie]

Okay. With that sentence, I can firmly place this in the set of "Things I don't need to know about since I am a happy MacOS X user". I appreciate the clarification. : )

Re:Am I missing something?

[Hatta]

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it? :)

Re:Am I missing something?

[Fear the Clam]

Agreed. It's not like it's a huge effort to find a way to run TeX on OS X.

Re:Am I missing something?

[Moofie]

In this particular case? Absolutely. : )

Re:Am I missing something?

[Goldfinger7400]

Does this package include anything more than Portage? I'm not familiar with Gentoo, is that really all everybody raves about?

Fink works fine for me, I won't rebuild all my packages (is that even easily possible?) with Portage unless there's a speed boost.

In case you don't get it.

[torpor]

This means (sorta, as in 'soon') that a Mac-user will be able to rebuild their own OSX box, using the Gentoo scripts, and still be able to maintain compatability with all OSX apps.

In other words, a 'better build system: a public one' has been unleashed on a commercial operating system, so that - separate from the company itself - alternative builds of the OS can be done, publically.

Why is this good? Because with Gentoo you can take personal risks that Apple can't. Gentoo allows you to build a system "Just for You", whereas Apple have to compile/link things "For Everyone".

Expect to see highly-tuned Gentoo boxes running GentooMacOS in the future, smokin' 'Factory OS' setups. I'll be digging into this a bit further, next point release sort of thing, and if I get the same results out of applying Gentoo to my OSX machine as I have with my Linux boxes, I'm excited. I may man I can put off a hardware upgrade or two and just 'Take Things To The Next Level' on my aging Powerbook...

Oh, and in case you think Apple should be 'worried about' this, it seems to me that they already get the point. With all the OS releases they've been doing lately, and the upgrades/improvements in the one area 'open source' is lacking: usability, and it seems to me that they're positioned well to be 'competing with the Open Source Base' ... but thats just my personal opinion.

Re:In case you don't get it.

[mikrorechner]

In other words, a 'better build system: a public one' has been unleashed on a commercial operating system, so that - separate from the company itself - alternative builds of the OS can be done, publically.

I think you forgot that while the source for Darwin, the system "under the hood" of OS X, is available, the UI is not. That means no Quartz, Spotlight or Core Image technologies, and no applications like the Finder or Expose.

Now, who would want a Mac without all this? That stuff, among other, makes it special. If you want only the underlying system, you can install OpenBSD right now.

Re:In case you don't get it.

[torpor]

You can still -RUN- all that stuff, its just that Gentoo will let you fine-tune all the goodness (kernel, system /bin's, /usr/bin's, etc) even further, around it, and yet still maintain a fully working properly configured system.

This one really does go up to 11.

And since its Open Source, Apple can instantly turn around, and start using it themselves.

Its not "Apple, we have a problem.", its "Apple, we have source."

They (Apple) certainly get the point...

Re:In case you don't get it.

[Eravau]

• MkLinux was probably the first Linux for the Mac. That lived and died before the G3 came into existence.
• LinuxPPC was the next up to bat...and was basically Red Hat for the PPC.
• Yellow Dog is probably the current most popular Linux for PPC processors.
• Mandrake and Gentoo are also in the game, but relative newcomers.

Re:In case you don't get it.

[goMac2500]

I'm not sure you understand what this is... It is basically a Gentoo package manager, allowing you to downwload and compile Linux programs on OS X. Yes, it does sound like it could build the Darwin kernel. No, this will not magically make your computer faster. Apple has worked hard to ensure Darwin is already extremely fast. Not only that, their kernal extension system already disables kernal extensions you don't need. If anything the bottleneck is in Aqua, most likely in Windowserver. You cannot simply use a different Windowserver (like X11) and expect all your OS X apps to run. Windowserver contains a lot of custom code to create memory space foundations unique for Cocoa and Carbon (gotta load those Carbon resource files into memory). Windowserver is not open source and not able to be recompiled. There is no magical way to make X run faster. And I hate to break it to you... but Linux is starting to get just as slow with X11.

Re:In case you don't get it.

[torpor]

Perhaps 'optimized' was a poor choice of words; I don't just mean from a speed perspective, but also 'managed system' persepective. Apple are usually 3 or 4 point releases behind on some of the stuff they're including - Gentoo can be used to keep things running the latest and greatest, and thus be getting 'better optimized software' installed...

You cannot simply use a different Windowserver (like X11) and expect all your OS X apps to run.

I'm not saying this is what you're going to do. I'm saying the base system upon which OSX is running - Darwin and its associated tools - can be more finely optimized to newer/faster/buglessier versions.

Yes, a pissing match between Apple and Gentoo over who can compile the best bins for PPC is pointless; they're both going to be, essentially, using the same tools. But I think Gentoo gives you a bleeding edge, anyway ...

Re:In case you don't get it.

[AcornWeb]

Not only that, their kernal extension system already disables kernal extensions you don't need.

Where did you learn that? I've been wondering about that very question for a while.

Re:In case you don't get it.

[killjoe]

As anybody who attended WWDC can tell you Apple has no interest in adopting an existing packaging system. Not fink, not darwinports, not even the excellent pkgsrc. They are determined to write their own packaging system.

If pkgsrc isn't good enough for them I doubt emerge will be.

OTOH they said that whatever they write will be open source and that's a good thing. I just wish they would have adopted something that already exists and improved it rather then writing yet another packaging system though.

Re:In case you don't get it.

[FredFnord]

MkLinux was still in active development well into the life cycle of the G3.

-fred

Re:In case you don't get it.

[goMac2500]

There is actually a pretty intricate dependancy system in place, down to load order and kexts requiring other kexts. As I remember, kexts run "on demand", meaning they are dynamically loaded into the actual kernel as needed. Darwin can actually load kernel extensions on the fly during runtime without a restart. If I remember correctly, it can also unload. For devices I believe IOKit handles which kexts are needed.

Re:In case you don't get it.

[Eravau]

Thanks. I guess my memory failed me. I thought it was dead by then. Maybe it was just dead by the time I got a G3.

Re:In case you don't get it.

[SphericalCrusher]

That's nice as all, but whey the fuck did my post get modded down to Troll? I think some of our SlashDot moderators are a bunch of morons. THIS is something that should be modded as a troll. Because I am a huge fan of both Linux and Mac, and was only asking a few simple questions in my previous post.

That's why the Metapkg Alliance was formed

[Shinzaburo]

The Metapkg Alliance was formed explicitly to improve cooperation between Fink, Gentoo, and DarwinPorts. Besides, have you actually tried Gentoo MacOS yet? Perhaps it offers (or will eventually offer) a significantly large value proposition over the other port distributors. Only time will tell.

Re:That's why the Metapkg Alliance was formed

[mrchaotica]

I use Fink right now on my iBook, and use Gentoo Linux on my PCs. The advantages Portage has over Fink (that I've noticed) are that Fink doesn't have a

--pretend

option (which shows what packages will be installed, without actually installing them), and the ability to (easily*) install unstable packages on a per-package basis (you have to completely switch Fink to the unstable tree, while with portage you can

ACCEPT-KEYWORDS="~<i>arch</i>" emerge <i>packagename</i>

)

*I think there might be a way to install a single package from unstable, but it's a complicated dirty hack

My Only Question

[tunabomber]

Will it handle the X11 dependency gracefully? I spent many, many hours trying to get Fink either to recognize that I had XFree86 installed as a binary or to compile it from source without getting errors all over the place. I'm not a newbie to package managers like apt and ports, but despite this I eventually ended up giving up trying to install X11 apps with Fink because I just didn't have the time to spend trying to get it to work properly. As a result, I am now using Quicken instead of GNUCash.

Re:My Only Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Have to say that fink's never given me trouble with X11 apps..

I install Apple's X11 via drag/drop (Or, in the case of Panther, during the original OS installation).. then install fink.. "fink install rxvt" is no problem. If GTK+ or something is needed, that gets installed as well.

Just has been my experience, as I remember. Might have trouble if X11 was installed via a different method.

Re:My Only Question

[ibookman]

Did you install the X11 SDK?

Re:My Only Question

[that_old_fool]

yeah - i'm no no0b either, but i reformated a few times until i remembered to install the X11 SDK ;p Reinstall xcode, and make sure x11 sdk is installed!!

Re:My Only Question

[CoughDropAddict]

I don't remember how I did it, but I had little problems getting X11 fink applications to work (including GNUCash). Remember that there is no need to install a X server, either binary or source, because OS X comes with an X server. All you have to do is point X apps to the X libraries, which wasn't much of a pain in my memory.

Re:My Only Question

[shippo]

I've never had that problem with Fink myself, and I've run many different versions of XFree under Fink.

I wonder if you attempted to install during the re-organisation of the XFree86 virtual packages? During that period it was feasable that something could go wrong. Anyway monitoring the various Fink mailing lists and/or the Fink homepage would have given you a solution to this problem.

Re:OK, so...

[doodlelogic]

where do I download the source code for OSX?

Uhm... here?

Oh the, err for want of a better word, 'Humanity'!

[Thud457]

Dear God, No!

All idiotic zealtory of Gentoo with all the, well, mindless zealotry of Mac! A winning combination!

Re:OK, so...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think you'll find the GUI API source anywhere. I have been using these switches for a PowerBook G4

-02 -mcpu=7450 -pipe -maltivec -mabi=altivec -mpowerpc-gfxopt -fsigned-char -mstring -mmultiple

Resistance is Futile

[Locarius]

...all your base are belongs to gentoo I can not say enough good things about the direction this Distro is going. Future of Linux, or the future of all OS's?

Re:Resistance is Futile

[proj_2501]

You needn't compile everything from source for a Gentoo bootstrap install. Try using a GRP CD (or at least a stage 3 install)

Re:Resistance is Futile

[ViolentGreen]

Compiling KDE from source is understandable. What possible performance gains could you hope to get by compiling openoffice from source? Why not use "emerge -k openoffice" (or mabye "emerge openoffice-bin"..can't remember?)

Re:Resistance is Futile

[DaCool42]

emerge openoffice-bin

Granted openoffice takes forever to compile, but I bet MS office takes even longer.

Portage is not in any way limited to source-only.

Re:Fink?

[Shinzaburo]

Gentoo MacOS brings the Gentoo Portage package management system to Mac OS X. Yes, it provides functionality similar to Fink and DarwinPorts, and all three solutions have agreed to cooperate in the future.

Portage seems to have several advantages over the other package management tools, including the following summary from the Portage manual:

Multiple versions and revisions of the same package in the tree, conditional dependency resolution and feature support, fine-grained package management, sandboxed safe installation, configuration file protection, profiles, and much more.

Re:I think you already can

[cbreaker]

See above..

It's called GentooX. A simple google would have shown that. It's not just LIKE Gentoo, it *is* gentoo.

Re:make sense?

[Joseph Vigneau]

Ask these guys.

I don't think you get it

[Shinzaburo]

I don't think the parent poster "forgot" that the Mac OS X UI source isn't available for custom compiles. That's not what Gentoo MacOS is about -- it's about being able to easily install and update popular *nix software on Mac OS X.

Who would want a Mac without Quartz, Spotlight, etc? I certainly wouldn't give up these features. But some people might want to use alternate desktop managers on Apple hardware. Just because you're not interested in doing so doesn't mean there is no reason for others to want to.

Besides, you don't necessarily have to forgo the Finder and Exposé to use Gentoo MacOS. It's a package manager, and as such can install a bunch of *nix tools that work alongside Mac OS X without replacing it.

Re:I don't think you get it

[mikrorechner]

I don't think the parent poster "forgot" that the Mac OS X UI source isn't available for custom compiles. That's not what Gentoo MacOS is about -- it's about being able to easily install and update popular *nix software on Mac OS X.

I know that, but the parent explicitly stated that it is possible to compile your own optimized build of OS X. I personally don't really believe in all that optimizing, but I don't have any Gentoo experience and don't want to start a flame war here.

Who would want a Mac without Quartz, Spotlight, etc? I certainly wouldn't give up these features. But some people might want to use alternate desktop managers on Apple hardware. Just because you're not interested in doing so doesn't mean there is no reason for others to want to.

Point taken. Although then a PowerPC Linux distribution might be the easier (and presently available) choice.

Besides, you don't necessarily have to forgo the Finder and Exposé to use Gentoo MacOS. It's a package manager, and as such can install a bunch of *nix tools that work alongside Mac OS X without replacing it.

I thought that Fink managed to do that quite well. But again, IANAGU (Gentoo user), so if people think that portage is superior, they should go ahead. After all, choice is what free software is all about, isn't it.

Re:I don't think you get it

[aliens]

Actually I think the point of Gentoo is to grow old while waiting to get your system usable. ::)

Re:OK, so...

[Anonymous Coward]

MacOSX != Darwin.

You may be able to get Darwin's source, but good luck getting the rest of MacOSX source. This shouldn't be called Gentoo MacOS its should be called Gentoo Darwin.

At least the MacOS zealots have something to be zealotishious about, Gentoo zealots only have zealotness to be zealotishius about. Obviously.

Yes, Gentoo is nice, but this isn't exactly....

[cbreaker]

..putting Gentoo on "Mac hardware" - it's putting portions of portage on MacOS. There's a difference there - it probably won't help the Linux community any.

I do like Gentoo, and I use it. There's nothing like installing almost any software I want with a two word command line. And if you're a GUI fan, kportage works great too.

Truthfully, I don't have the time to maintain my three home Linux boxes full time. Meaning, I can't always be re-installing them or upgrading them to the latest version of Fedora, or Mandrake, or Debian, just because I want to install xyz software which requires abc library which can only be found on the new release. With Gentoo, I basically say "go." And it does the rest.

I've only had a small few issues with Gentoo, mostly because of major changes in gcc or what-not. These issues would have you buried in the stink for a long time on another distribution, but not on Gentoo. Just recompile the necessary packages and be on your way.

I use Gentoo because I'm lazy.

Re:Yes, Gentoo is nice, but this isn't exactly....

[Nasarius]

Yes, Gentoo is nice, but this isn't exactly putting Gentoo on "Mac hardware"

Um, you're right. That's because it's been done already. PPC is one of the best-supported architectures after x86 on Gentoo. PPC64 is there too.

http://packages.gentoo.org/

Re:Yes, Gentoo is nice, but this isn't exactly....

[pyite]

Meaning, I can't always be re-installing them or upgrading them to the latest version of Fedora, or Mandrake, or Debian

Are you trolling? Gentoo takes forever to update. I can't speak for Fedora or Mandrake, but updating Debian is the easiest thing in the world. sudo apt-get -u update; sudo apt-get -u upgrade. What's so tough about that?

Re:Yes, Gentoo is nice, but this isn't exactly....

[cbreaker]

It's never taken me very long to update my Gentoo machines. Then again, I'm not one of those "I run Pentium 100's and I'm proud of it" types. I have quick boxes with plenty of memory.

Only when doing a full update of all core packages does it take awhile, and I very rarely have to do that. The benefits greatly outweigh this. And all I have to do is type one thing and walk away.

If package A requires package B, and B requires that another package, C, needs to be compiled with support for something, Gentoo will do all this for you with no extra effort.

Debian has many advantages of portage but it still falls a little short in my mind. I mean, sure, you can get your packages through apt just fine but you have to make sure you find and add the right apt sources for your particular version of your particular libraries and other support software. It can still be a pain in the ass. I like Debian because it's proven, and stable. But I like Gentoo more because it's just easier.

Like I said, I'm lazy, therefore I use Gentoo.

Re:Yes, Gentoo is nice, but this isn't exactly....

[cbreaker]

Umm, I know. That's why I replied to the guy.

Re:Yes, Gentoo is nice, but this isn't exactly....

[pyite]

Once again, you're stating things that JUST AREN'T TRUE.

I mean, sure, you can get your packages through apt just fine but you have to make sure you find and add the right apt sources for your particular version of your particular libraries and other support software.

No you don't. It just works. Fortunately, some of the people I know who use Gentoo are sick of compile times (on fast boxes) and of stuff constantly breaking and are switching to Debian.

Re:Yes, Gentoo is nice, but this isn't exactly....

[cbreaker]

Uhh, okay settle down little debian fan.

Maybe the've changed Debian in the last year or so since I used it, but when I did, there were always a handful of software that I couldn't get my hands on without having to wait for someone to create a deb for, or add sources to someone's apt source, etc. It was a pain in the ass if you want to have new versions of software - some software updates improve things significantly between versions, such as xine and myth-tv.

Perhaps you can get by with software that's a few revisions behind - and wait for someone to create deb packages, but I don't feel the need to do that when I can just use Gentoo.

Not to mention gentoo's ebuild system is so easy you can adapt it to any new version of pretty much anything in minutes.

You obviously don't like Gentoo, and that's your problem. A lot of people do like it - which is why it's getting more popular. I've had the best overall experience with Gentoo Linux over any other distribution I've used.

The thing is, people that like Gentoo usually also think that most linux distributions are fine. I think Debian is a fine distribution with a lot going for it. I like Mandrake, and SuSE is pretty nice. I have no real bad things to say about them. People like yourself, on the other hand, are closed minded and immediately say "GENTOO SUCKS COMPILE SUCKS YOU SUCK" as soon as anyone mentions it. Okay, sure, you didn't use those exact words, but it's pretty evident that's what you mean.

Good luck to your friends. If they break their Gentoo systems that much and/or compile core software a lot (which they would have to be doing if they complain about compile times, because 90% of the software I compile takes moments to compile) then they aren't going to end up with smooth running Debian systems either.

Re:Yes! Finally! Optimized MacOS!

[Antihero77]

Doesn't anyone know the right compiler flags? Does O4 work on a Mac?! AWESOME! I'm going to go recompile my Gentoo in celebration of this huge day.

See ya in 6 months.

Not true

[Anonymous Coward]

Shallax has been kicked off gentoo because he refused to work as part of a team or commit the xbox patches back to gentoo. At this point in time gentoox has nothing to do with gentoo, and he is violating the "gentoo" trademark by using the name.

Re:Not true

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not entirely correct.

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=1195349

how's its hygiene?

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the most awesomeliest things about Fink is that it installs everything in root /sw, no exceptions (i.e. /sw/bin, /sw/usr/lib, etc). That means you don't have to worry about contaminating the Apple-controlled parts of the OS, and uninstalling all customizations is just a matter of trashing /sw. I would never even think of installing anything in /usr or /usr/local (because it "belongs" to Apple).

Does Gentoo MacOS do the same thing? If not, why not????

Re:how's its hygiene?

[fatphil]

"I would never even think of installing anything in [...] /usr/local (because it "belongs" to Apple)"

Do what? /usr/local is mine, all mine, as _I'm_ the sysadmin on this machine. If OSX touches /usr/local, then Apple are a pretty crap bunch of bodgers. Can anyone verify?

FP.

Re:how's its hygiene?

[Anonymous Coward]

Installing in /sw is the stupidest part about fink. It should be /opt at worst, but /usr/local is perfectly safe to use. It's just a lot easier to use that way. It's a cinch to compile external apps from source because they already know how to deal with /usr/local. It was a pain in the butt trying to get all the right flags when fink was installed in /sw. Apple will not touch stuff that you put in /usr/local. They don't "own" that directory. It exists for the very purpose of the administrator installing his own packages. The "danger" of installing to /usr/local is overstated and you should just ignore fink's stupid warnings.

If it turns out that Gentoo/MacOS does install to a stupid non-standard directory, I'm going to be very unhappy.

Re:how's its hygiene?

[avalys]

Direct from my terminal in OS 10.3.4:

VTS03:~ avalys$ cd /usr/local
VTS03:/usr/local avalys$ ls -a
. .. share
VTS03:/usr/local avalys$

Re:how's its hygiene?

[saitoh]

If I rmemeber correctly, part of what was the big hitch against fink originally was that it broke rank and did that. /usr/local is your stuff, period. Nothing should be put in /usr/bin unless apple installed it, but /usr/local/bin is just your stuff. And fink basically just kinda gave everyone the finger when they said no and put it elsewhere.

Its kinda like, install the Dev tools, then compile something from scratch, where does it go when you do 'make install'? It puts it in /usr/local/bin. Thats just how unix works, and since we are essentailly using a FreeBSD base, thats how it works (notice the reversal of more/less)

I can see arguments both for and against this, but one thing that portage does is it keeps track of what is *your* stuff, and where that stuff is, so if you dont like something, you can remove just that. Now, I've only had to do this once, and what I did was not tied to shared libraries, so someone else who uses Gentoo will need to chime in here (my server was done with "measure twice, cut once" planning).

But I can see how it can safeguard against that for each replease of OSX, given various components built into portage.

Now, I do understand the reasoning by using /sw, and it is a different way of doing stuff (and what it accomplishes is a very valid point, of keeping things seperate as you noted), just one that some people dont like, or have other reasons against which I am not well versed in.

- Page

Re:how's its hygiene?

[Anonymous Coward]

a big pain? I'd like to introduce you to a tool called 'ln -s'. perhaps you've heard of it?

Re:how's its hygiene?

[Anonymous Coward]

Judging by the screenshot here:
http://www.metadistribution.org/macos/8.png

It seems that it puts stuff into /usr/bin

I don't know what the effects of that would be on an OS X system.

Re:how's its hygiene?

[mrchaotica]

You must not use MacOS. I do, and the only stuff in /usr/local is the stuff I put there myself. It may be a BSD, but it's a weird BSD

Re:how's its hygiene?

[killjoe]

I am pretty sure mac os X stays out of /usr/local.

If I were you I'd make that another partition just to make sure.

Re:how's its hygiene?

[akiro]

http://gentoo-wiki.com/Gentoo_MacOS

From the documentation: "Portage installs things in / and could possibly overwrite important packages that were installed by OS X. Use this technology at your own risk!".

I think I'll stick to fink for now, they could at least have used /usr/local and not mess with / :-/

Re:how's its hygiene?

[fatphil]

I'm a user of various OSes.

asdf ~/public_html uname
FreeBSD

asdf ~/public_html which gzip /usr/bin/gzip
asdf ~/public_html which zip /usr/local/bin/zip

asdf ~/public_html which telnet /usr/bin/telnet
asdf ~/public_html which ssh /usr/local/bin/ssh

asdf ~/public_html which ftp /usr/bin/ftp
asdf ~/public_html which sftp /usr/local/bin/sftp

asdf ~/public_html which talk /usr/bin/talk
asdf ~/public_html which irc /usr/local/bin/irc

If that's in any way logical, then I'm a Dutchman.

If talk is part of the base OS, then so is internet explorer.

FP.

Re:how's its hygiene?

[dmalloc]

Once more a rather tiring answer. Installing to /usr/local is NOT safe. Simply because some installers that distribute Mac oS X ported UNIX applications sometimes install their support libraries into /usr/local. Tghis would inadvertedly overwrite whatever you have installed by something like Fink. Furthermore /usr/local is in the stanard search path of GCC and you cannot override that. So you might end up getting library/header mixups and conflicts. /opt might be a nice choice, but when Fink started it was not availaible and there is _NO_ sane reason not to install into /sw. Furtermore you can install Fink where _YOU_ like, the prefix is adjustable, and you would have noticed that by reading the documentation :)

Re:how's its hygiene?

[EXrider]

I used to keep my /Applications and /Library directories on a separate volume using symbolic links. Apple's updates were not friendly to this technique, every time I applied an update it would rm the link and put it's updates into the folder that it re-created. That system was a biotch to keep running, almost as bad as when I tried to use UFS on my beige G3 in 10.1 ick!

Re:Let's get it straight...

[Anonymous Coward]

..." I DON'T want linux software..."

Is someone twisting your arm to install OSS stuff?

mod parent up

[davids-world.com]

... because this is a valid criticism of the subject...

Re:make sense?

[mst76]

Indeed. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the IBM zSeries with Linux can easiliy run into the millions. And don't forget these guys.

No, Apple *has* a problem

[ink]

And Gentoo is the solution. OSX is shipped with a very stripped-down UNIX program suite. Fink addresses the problem nicely, and Gentoo looks like it's aiming at the same problem. I don't think the author meant that Gentoo on OSX *is* the problem.

Ah...But...

[Anonymous Coward]

The real question is, when is portage going to move over to a real opreating system? ...ya know. Like Windows.

Re:Ah...But...

[api]

"The real question is, when is portage going to move over to ... Windows."

You mean ala mingw?

Hmm. a common, cross-platform open source sub-environment.

That just may make sense.

M.

Re:OK, so...

[Darth Daver]

Hmmm, a lot of pieces seem to be missing.

Re:OK, so...

[Anonymous Coward]

Aqua : OS X :: Gnome : Linux

OS X is Darwin, but OS X also includes additional software. As in all Unixes, the GUI in OS X is not an integral part of the operating system. There are even OS X users who boot to a console, and then run X if they want a GUI.

Re:Let's get it straight...

[halivar]

I WAN'T MacOS software, it's user friendliness, simplicity, consistency and excelent graphical core with all that eye candy on my x86 machine. Without a loss of speed. Clear enough?

And I WANT a Ferrari Testarossa that gets 40 miles to the gallon. AND I want laser beams on the hood! Clear enough?

mirrors?

[cangeceiro]

mirrors anyone, looks /. has claimed another webserver

Re:I have a bad feeling...

[Mr Guy]

Doubt it, the set up for the joke to work (I know, I must be new here) is so limited as to avoid common usage. Now, you could COMBINE them (In Redmond, the lawsuits go to 11) but used on it's own there are very few situations where it makes sense. This case was actually pretty decent, in my personal view.

Besides, it's a pretty old joke so if it hasn't caught on yet, it's not very likely. It still fits the bill nicely as a pseudo-chuckle level punchline when applied to a comparison between products that seem superficially similar.

Some Explination

[cyberfunk2]

For those of us mac users who get the general concept (It's like fink, a package manager) but dont know anything about Portage... any ideas on where to find an introduction to this new toy ?

Specific questions.... Is there a seperate tree for MacOS X w/ apps known to compile correctly on it ? (As in different from the x86 tree)

Is there a shiny gui to go w/ ? (We mac users just love our guis)

What on God's green earth is emerge ?

etc.

Thanks in Advance.

Re:Some Explination

[ViolentGreen]

Specific questions.... Is there a seperate tree for MacOS X w/ apps known to compile correctly on it ? (As in different from the x86 tree)
I don't know for sure but I would assume this would be the case especially if portage offers binary downloads as they do for x86.

Is there a shiny gui to go w/ ? (We mac users just love our guis)
The article says there is (or perhaps will be.)

What on God's green earth is emerge ?
Emerge is just the command you use to install the programs. "emerge gimp" will compile the gimp from source and "emerge -k gimp" will install the precompiled binary. Emerge can be as simple as that or it can be MUCH more complicated with the many advanced features.

Re:OK, so...

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

Nice try, but no. The point of Gentoo MacOS is to use Apple's well-designed, proprietary OS with popular, open-source applications. If you want, go get Gentoo for Macintosh hardware / PPC, but you'll lose the benefits of Mac OS X. Not everything has to be open-sourced; frankly, there would be no was OS X could have reached the state it is in now had it been developed open source. There wouldn't have been enough incentive for Apple's talented developers, and management wouldn't have been motivated to include it with Apple computers.

Partially working for solaris too

[Stonent1]

Portaris, Portage on Solaris

Just something I've toyed around with. The major stumbling block is that the developers need to add the ability for portage to recognize other oses. Mine isn't really a complete project, more of a log of stuff I've done. Others have followed and managed to get things like KDE to fully install in solaris using portage.

Windows XP

[green pizza]

Hi, I'm Joe Q Developer. I only write small freeware apps, so Microsoft won't even talk to me. So please tell me where I can legally download the source to Windows XP?

Oh, I can't?

Apple may not release the source to its higher level frameworks, but everything you need for low-level hooks is right there in Darwin. Hell, that's most of the OS.

Did you install Apple X11?

[green pizza]

Assuming you are using 10.3 "Panther", did you choose to install X11 when you installed the OS? If not, you can still install it now via drag-and-drop.

Apple's X11 is based on Xfree 4.3 and has pretty much replaced Xdarwin and the others. It works great and is *fast*. Even the GLX acceleration is just as fast as native Quartz/Cocoa OpenGL.

If you play around with some of the config files (or just boot to a console login and "startx"), you can even get your mac to login to an X11 desktop rather than the native Aqua desktop!

Re:OK, so...

[aristotle-dude]

No, Darwin is OS X. What you don't get is the window manager and other nice software but the OS is a free download.

You are free to develop console apps or develop OS X apps that run on X-Windows.

Re:I have a bad feeling...

[Woody77]

In Soviet Redmond, the 11 goes to you?

Re:Can you boot Darwin with GRUB on x86?

[Random Web Developer]

The only way I am aware of booting darwin or osX on x86 is via pearpc
http://www.pearpc.net/

Why did you bother posting?

[paz5]

Guess you were right. About the modding part that is...

perfect

[mhatt]

Now I can get rid of my perfectly functioning, visually appealing operating system in order to install GNU/Linux with X-windows. Just in time, too. I've been very tired of things just working - putting in a DVD and having the player pop up, not having to spend hours tracking down whether my sound card is supported and finding that elusive switch that has to be passed to modprobe. I also miss recompiling kernels to load an alpha video card driver developed by teenagers (good for them, by the way) from specs pried from the reluctant arms of the company who produced it. Now, once again, I'll be able to spend hours manually messing with Modelines in /etc/X11/XF86Config in order to perfectly tune my display for 1280x1024 resolution at 32-bit color!

Yes, this is very exciting. emerge world me, baby.

Re:perfect

[mhatt]

Whoops. It's not a replacement. Maybe I should have bothered to read *both* sentences of the post...

Re:OK, so...

[KAMiKAZOW]

This shouldn't be called Gentoo MacOS its should be called Gentoo Darwin

As the FA clearly states, Gentoo MacOS in the future not only be used to install unixy apps, but also "real" OSX apps like Dashboard widgets.

Re:Why would you install Linux on a Mac?

[cangeceiro]

in this case you arent putting linux on the mac. it is mearly adopting gentoo's portage system to the mac. So you are still running OS X, you just have the kewlness of portage.
personally i am canning fink as soon as i can get this damn dmg downloaded

Re:Can you boot Darwin with GRUB on x86?

[NorthWoodsman]

This is offtopictastic

Re:Why would you install Linux on a Mac?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not Linux on a Mac. It's a method of software distribution that was originally developed for Linux but doesn't have to be used for only Linux. Currently, it only installs free software applications. They will eventually add the Mac's own core operating system Darwin so users can reconfigure and recompile it to their own individual needs. You'll probably even be able to compile it with IBM's own compiler for better optimization.

Repeat once again: WinFS is NOT a filesystem !

[theefer]

I must admit interest in MS's claim that they're going to create a true database filesystem

I read this occasionally on /., but it is wrong. WinFS is not a (database) filesystem, and this is why the FS in WinFS does not stand for FileSystem but FutureStorage (there must have been a contest to find such a stupid name). WinFS is a database over NTFS that remains the filesystem. It just adds meta-data to files, but in a separate database.

I went to a mini-conference by a ms evangelist, and he repeated it many times.

I'd be more interested in what Reiser4 does with metadata, it seems much more interesting than a mere additionnal layer.

Re:Repeat once again: WinFS is NOT a filesystem !

[Elwood P Dowd]

Then my comparison is full of crap. Redo:

Neither WinFS nor Spotlight entail changes to NTFS & HFS+. WinFS and Spotlight are both databases housed on ordinary filesystems.

Both WinFS and Spotlight will be updated by the filesystem drivers. WinFS and Spotlight will have different features. The features promised for WinFS are more attractive (for developers), but Spotlight will be here & usable sooner.

Re:OK, so...

[samrolken]

"apps that run on X-Windows" (sic) aren't OS X apps. They actually use the BSD subsystem and API on OS X instead of Cocoa. This is Mac OS X's ability to run unix-based software.

Re:OK, so...

[bfg9000]

...there would be no was OS X could have reached the state it is in now had it been developed open source. There wouldn't have been enough incentive for Apple's talented developers, and management wouldn't have been motivated to include it with Apple computers.

Except, of course, that it would drive sales of Macs, exactly as it has done. Apple wouldn't sell half the units if it weren't for OS X. And if you're worried someone else will take the source and port it to x86, that's irrelevant. The important functionality has been mostly duplicated WITHOUT having the source code; Expose, the Aqua look, the swooshy dock, brushed metal, the MenuBar... all are available elsewhere WITHOUT it being open sourced. So keeping it closed didn't help them keep a monopoly on their ideas, because once somebody sees a good idea, everyone else uses it. And that's okay. It's what we've always done, at least back to the time someone started copying Henry Ford's assembly line idea so they could compete effectively, thus creating the auto industry that gives us cheap, reliable automobiles. Society gets better by constantly taking other people's ideas ("standing on the shoulders of giants"), improving on them and reselling them. And then the other guy is forced to innovate again to stay ahead. That's capitalism. Capitalism doesn't work without competition to drive quality up and prices down. We argue against it when our favorite company is getting copied, but they copy people as well, regardless of what the zealots say. Konfabulator, Watson, Xerox Parc's GUI ideas, BSD guts, the iMac idea which an artist apparently submitted to Apple as an idea. No company is an island unto itself; everybody is affected by the innovations of others. And opening the source wouldn't help x86 or Linux or whatever duplicate the "whole widget" effect which is the main selling point of the MacOS, because the relevant code would only apply to the exact Mac hardware it was written for -- which means you gotta buy a Mac to get the "whole widget" effect, or make your own hardware and software yourself.

In short, it wouldn't hurt Apple a bit. Sure, somebody might port OS X and run it on their Toshiba, but the user wouldn't be buying a Mac anyway; they've already got a Toshiba. And the "whole widget" smoothness wouldn't be there, so it'd be more like running a crappy version of linux than the real OS X on the real hardware. They'd get bored and go back to Windows, or spring for a real Mac if they liked it enough. And Apple might sell a few more copies of iLife.

Not that I think Apple should waste their time porting OSX, I just know that some large firms don't allow closed-source, proprietary code on their servers due to security concerns. The Chinese government said they found an NSA backdoor in Windows; I would assume the NSA also ordered one put on the Mac.

but...

[gandalphthegreen]

...does it run linux?

Re:Let's get it straight...

[checkup21]

no, he just asumes that good coders shit binary packages. and that bad linux terrorists invented the source files to irritate us all.

"...developers are busy polishing the knobs" --

[TofuDog]

Wow, the Gentoo-Darwin team must be really satisfied! Related news from The Onion-
Favorite 'net acronyms: OMGIJEAOMK =
Oh my god I just ejaculated all over my keyboard. Always looking for more things to do with my mac...

Re:I have a bad feeling...

[FuzzzyLogik]

ah.. memories of This Is Spinal Tap... yes.. great movie lol...

What is Gentoo?

[TheBillGates]

What does Gentoo do? I saw some posts where they say DTP (desktop publishing?) and other google searches hint that it is a file management system. What is this beast and might it help me boost my productivity on OSX?

Re:Yes now you can have a bastarized OS

[michaelggreer]

I'm not sure you understand what this is. It doesn't install Linux, or any part of it. It installs Unix apps, many of which are also included in Linux distributions. By far most of them are command-line. I need these (Perl libs, graphviz,etc.). If you don't need them, or don't know what they are, then don't use them.

Re:OK, so...

[koomi]

emerge pearpc

Re:Package management and OS X

[mdarksbane]

Don't think of these as OS X applications. What a portage tree does, or X11 on OS X does, is give a mac box almost all the strengths of a linux box with all the strengths of a mac box. you don't lose anything; you can still use only mac programs, with nice installers and GUI's (and I, personally, prefer to whenever possible).

However, it gives you the option of having just as nice of a package management system and a huge list of open source tools that *aren't* available with a nice GUI as well. It's the best of both worlds, with no requirement of dealing with either. *That's* what's so exciting.

PNG, JPG, TIFF, BMP

[tyrione]

What the hell is with the incessant use of PNG for large images on web sites if they are massive in file size, and take too damn long to download, for those of us who aren't on 1.5ADSL or Cable?

I'm dyin' to hear about the Open-Sourceness of PNG and adopting its usage because of this blah, blah, blah.

Either make PNG compress graphics better than JPEG or don't use it is my solution.

It's not that damn hard to put a black backdrop on your JPEG and throw it up at about 1/6th the file size.

Besides the only large image files worth downloading aren't computer Icons, but are of the female persuasion (I don't speak for homosexuals but I'm sure they can adjust my statement accordingly).

Re:I like gentoo...

[metamatic]

1. Use emerge rsync.

2. Turn down the verbosity, often my system would spend most of its time scrolling the screen...

oh GOD yes!!!!

[TheLittleJetson]

ive been waiting for this for a while. much love to fink, but gentoo is just a slick group and it will be nice to use the same package manager on all my unixes.

Re:oh GOD yes!!!!

[trouser]

on all my unixes ????

But all your Unix are belong to us.

There were reasons

[FredFnord]

In 10.2 and possibly 10.1 (and maybe the first one or two releases of 10.3?) Apple did put stuff into /usr/local. They don't now. All these people shouting 'they do!' 'they don't!' might consider that they could both be right.

And, since Apple did that when fink was setting up, /usr/local was NOT a good place for fink to install, because there were definitely things to be overwritten in there.

-fred

Frickin' lasers?

[FredFnord]

Would you settle for a small fleet ill-tempered Toyota Celica? (Celicas? Celicae?)

-fred

Re:Yes now you can have a bastarized OS

[paz5]

Yes the parent may be a troll and i know trolls are not to be listend to, however the troll mentions one thing that i spent hours trying to do. I wanted to see if there were a way to have OS X installed and be able to switch (even if it ment logging out and killing apps) between the normal mac gui (only... aka no XFree86 or X11) to running XFree86/X11 along with some window manager (kde?) only (not the normal mac gui (quartz?)). Anyone have success, or know if its doable, at being able to use only X and switch back easily?

Re:Stupid Mac user question

[istewart]

Maybe you need to update Safari. I'm using 1.2.2 and I see a big fat PNG right in the middle of the Gentoo tab.

Re:Stupid Mac user question

[paz5]

Why an honest cry for help got no response and a score of 0 i dont know... but the image loads in safari for me... I am using safari 1.2.2 (v125.8) on OS X 10.3.4 build 7H63. I don't have ie installed so i can't give that a shot. Hope you find out what the problem is.

Re:Yes now you can have a bastarized OS

[Jesrad]

Logout.
Login as user ">console" (or use the shiny slick "Other accounts" button ?)
Login with your usual account and password in text mode.
startx

Re:Stupid Mac user question

[Quobobo]

Maybe it got a score of zero because it was posted by an anonymous coward? There isn't really any reason to mod a "One image doesn't work for me" post up.

What the hell is Gentoo?!

[ztirffritz]

I thought that Gentoo was a Linux distro, but people here make it sound like a left-wing branch of Budhism. I've never tried it, but I've heard the widest range of compliments about it imaginable. The nerdiest of nerds say that it is the best thing since pocket protectors while I've heard others say that it is a worthless Linux distro that requires you to compile the files that are used to compile the files that are encoded versions of the source code so that you can compile the configuration of the flux capacitor for the ....you get the idea.

Switching between Aqua and X11

[Saunalainen]

I wanted to see if there were a way to have OS X installed and be able to switch between the normal mac gui (only... aka no XFree86 or X11) to running XFree86/X11 along with some window manager

On Panther, you can run Apple's XFree86 in full screen mode (X11->Preferences->Output->Full Screen Mode). The next time you start X, you will enter full screen mode directly. When you exit X, you will return to Aqua. You can switch between the two without exiting your X session with Command-Option-A

You can run any window manager you like - I use Windowmaker, which is available via Fink - just make sure your .xinitrc file ends with the line `exec $WMANAGER'. You aren't exiting Quartz, as Apple's X11 runs on top of it, but I guess the above does what you want.

Utterly pointless

[cipher chort]

Great, so for the second time a team of wacky Linux devels are going to try to defile the beauty of Apple and the coherence and focus of BSD. Look, OS X is built on BSD (Free and some Net, to be exact), so why are people trying so hard to port _LINUX_ package systems to it?

Fink is a port of apt-get, which is basically a knock-off of FreeBSD's ports system. Portage is just a more modern knock-off of Ports. Why are you trying to port Linux copies instead of just using the real thing (which is already designed for BSD systems). Oh wait, such a thing exists already (DarwinPorts) and, unlike Fink, it actually works well and most of the packages are up to date. I tried to get nmap and other libpcap-dependent apps to install on 10.3.3 with Fink for weeks until I gave up and tried DarwinPorts--then they all worked on the first try (and had much more recent versions).

Never mind, lets muddle things up Linux-style, because every n00b knows that 101 low-grade options to choose from is much more l33+ than 3 solid options ("I use Slack/RH/MDK/SuSE/Gentoo/Lin------/Foonix/Barix/L0 0nix/Etcux--they kick M$'s @$$!!! I install a new .ISO every three hours, it's great!!"). Keep on porting! Next we need RPM-X, iMDK, SlackPkg, etc, etc... quantity over quality I guess...

There's a reason I use OS X rather than Linux for my desktop... let me try to remember... oh yes, I've got it: BECAUSE IT'S NOT BLOODY LINUX!!!

Re:Package management and OS X

[api]

"Sometimes I think the OSS crowd really just doesn't get it."

Sometimes the OSS crowd is YOUR system administator and must respond to YOUR needs and make their work look like magic. You want one-click installations while they must ensure you are running safe, reliable software.

The portage/Darwin scenario allows an administrator to see the code you will be running, customize it as necessary, build it and potentially make a Next-Next-Next-Finish DMG-based installer for YOU. The Apple package format appears to be open and is thus scriptable.

Win-Win.

M.