3D Mouse

FTL writes "Turn an ordinary wheel mouse into a 3D pointing device. All one needs is some string, some hot melt glue, and a lot of math. 3D mice have been floating around for a while, what will it take to get people to use them?"

Comments

What's the point?

[dirty]

Seriously, what's the point of a 3d mouse? We have 2d GUIs.

Re:What's the point?

[mrdaveb]

I'm sure if you are designing 3D graphics it could be quite useful in combination with 3D glasses. Use some imagination!

Re:What's the point?

[fstrauss]

What's the point of a 3d GUI with only 2d input devices?

Re:What's the point?

[SpinyManiac]

Maybe you only have a 2D GUI.

It's a UNIX system! I know this!

Yes, I know it's still a 2D display. It's supposed to be funny.

Re:What's the point?

[dirty]

Possibly, but for general use, there is no reason for people to start using them. Not to mention, think of how tired your arm would get after hours of work on your computer.

I'm sure for specialized tasks 3d mice make perfect sense, and are probably already in use. I just don't want to have them shoved on normal use.

Re:What's the point?

[dirty]

Very good question. IMHO the Mac OS X approach makes the best use out of any GUI to use any 3d features. Make the windows 3d surfaces, so you can do neat stuff like expose. Rotating windows, and sticky notes are really just a showoff of technology. I just can't imagine that being usefull.

Re:What's the point?

[mrdaveb]

Sure it wouldn't be much use to you or I, but remember this is slashdot - most of the stories on here are about wacky specialist kit.

But yeah, it does sound like a one way ticket to having a very tired arm.

Re:What's the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's see most REAL work done on a computer is in CAD and Graphics. both of which make extensive use of 3d.

in Maya, Blender and Lightwave I would KILL for a 3d mouse. Same as most CAD designers have a 3D pointing device on their desks.

Just because you click and drool doing mindless work that can be just as easily done on paper with a pen, you just do it on a computer for the novelty, doesnt mean that a bulk of real work done on computers is only using the 2d windows desktop.

Re:What's the point?

[tciny]

On the other hand it'd be pretty comfortable for using a software like Maya or 3dsmax where you currently have to use those transform gizmos in order to move objects in 3D space.

I think tho, that it'd need another solution than just giving 2d mice a third axis.
I'd rather have something like a glove you put on where you can then pick up objects, point at them, etc. It'd just make it far more intuitive and flexible to use... and of course far more expansive, that is :)

Re:What's the point?

[nkh]

The 80s are back! Does that mean I can write my source code with red and blue glasses?

Re:What's the point?

[dirty]

I'd really love to see some statistics proving that point.

Web development isn't real work?
Video production isn't real work?
Audio editing isn't real work?

Those 3 items are 90% of the work I do on a computer, and I'd love to see you do any of them with a pen and paper. Not one of them would be simplified with a 3d mouse, or even a 3d desktop. Extra monitors on the other hand, provide a great benifate to all of those areas. And all a second monitor does is extend your 2d work area.

I can't back this up at all, but I would imagine that true 3d applications are nothing more than a small percentage of work done on computers. I'd say the vast majority of all work related computer use is office applications. Yes a good deal of it could be done on paper, but with a lot more effort.

Re:What's the point?

[Analogy Man]

Actually most CAD systems use a combination of a mouse and a spaceball.

The only application I have observed for a 3-D input device was at GM R&D for programming the movement of the end effecter of a robot (e.g. weld guns, CNC machining operations...)

Re:What's the point?

[dirty]

I know it's a troll, but just in the off chance it's not, I'd love to hear more of the person's reasoning, maybe he has a real point.

Re:What's the point?

[kf8vn]

I use both my space ball and mouse to navigate my CAD system. They each have several buttons to initiate various functions and tasks. How would you select anything when your mouse had it's guts removed and all tied up with strings?

Re:What's the point?

[mog007]

I use a trackball, you insensitive clod!

Re:What's the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Speak for yourself:

http://www.sharp3d.com/

Re:What's the point?

[0zymandias]

agreed - 640k should be enough for everyone.

--

Re:What's the point?

[lcsjk]

OK, pretend you are looking at a three dimensional CAD view of a computer from the front. The power supply is back behind the CD-ROM. With the 3D mouse you zoom into the system until see the front of the power supply box. You have zoomed right through the CD-ROM and are seeing the cables and box and maybe even part of the back panel (from inside the box). Your intent is to change the power supply mounting hardware.
With a 2-D mouse you could only have moved up/down and side to side on the view of the front panel.
That's one use of a 3-D mouse.

Re:What's the point?

[gfxguy]

I think there could be some very creative use of such a device in games. Remember, most of these 3D mice devices are just normal mice when they are on your desktop, only every once in a while would you need to pick it up to use the 3D functionality.

Re:What's the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, you can zoom easily enough with a three button mouse anyway. Many (if not all) the decent 3D packages allow the user to use the middle mouse button in a user defined way. In 3DS Max 5 I simply hold the middle mouse button and move the mouse back and forward if I want to zoom. Panning is done by holding the left mouse button.

I really don't want to be holding my arm out in front of me for hours on end just to zoom in and out. I could see uses for the medical profession tho, maybe remote control of some laser surgical devices able to slice and dice at a distance?

Or perhaps remote control over 3D sex toys, you'd definately have to build some fail safes into them tho; Think about how much slack there is on your mouse cable and the amount of horizontal 3D movement you could produce remotely..

Re:What's the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Im using a 1d mouse. It just clicks.

Re:What's the point?

[Weirdofreak]

On the other hand it'd be pretty comfortable for using a software like Maya or 3dsmax
Two words: scroll wheel. It doesn't give quite so much accuracy as a 3d mouse, but its basic use is the same - it adds another dimension in which we can move, and it has the added advantage of being able to own one without violating the warranty on their regular mouse.

Re:What's the point?

[drinkypoo]

Something like the SpaceOrb 360 would be ideal if integrated into a hand rest and it replaced the mouse. Six degrees of freedom without holding anything up in the air.

Re:What's the point?

[purplepeopledesign]

I agree. Most of the posts so far have only shown that most have no idea how users interact with machines, let alone how the posters themselves interact with their own machines. Even a 3D GUI couldn't use a 3D mouse. Motion in the virtual space is accomplished much the way we move in real space. Forward and back. Rotate and Tilt. Sounds a lot like flying. Everything depends on point of view and line of sight. Now for digitizing, a 3D mouse still wouldn't work, although the absolute positioning would be useful. In this case, various commercial digitizing arms already suffice and many softwares already convert photos to 3D. It would be better to have a (radar/sonar/video) sensor locate our finger tips and extrapolate what we are "pointing" at. Maybe people should look up the old PARC research, eh?

Re:What's the point?

[WhiteDragon]

You know, up until this exact moment, I thought that scene was just a bit of Holywood cluelessness. Wow!

Re:What's the point?

[brahms3]

Well, as someone says there are perfectly good uses for such devices, even with 2D GUIs. We used a Pegasus one (Israel) to spatialise sound in a 3d speaker cube. So it was 2D on the screen but 3D aurally. You do need 6 degrees of freedom, even though the human ears are geared mostly for horizontal spatial location. But there you go. (oh and it would also make Tekken TAG a whole lot more fun:)

Re:What's the point?

[AuMatar]

Yes, because the Power Glove worked oh so well :/

3d mouse on 2d screen ?

[mirko]

What's the point of moving a mouse in 3D if we use 2d monitors ?

Descent

[AuraBorealis]

Perfect! Just what I needed to get me to haul out an old copy of Descent and start vomiting all over again.

-B

Re:Descent

[jdunn14]

I can play any first person shooter and feel nothing. Drop me in front of Descent and I need a doggy bag. Glad someone else had this problem. God, I get vaguely nauseous just remembering that game.

Re:Descent

[Cavecrawler]

Never got nausea, just white knuckles and a sore neck from dodging robot fire. Now my kids fly through levels like running in the house.

A 3D mouse would have made for some interesting level design techniques.

-- Cavecrawler [an Orion Nebula Project author]

A lobotomy?

[Democritus2]

Yeah cause some string and glue are much easier then the old fashioned mice we use today. Geesh

Luxury..

[caston]

None of this fancy Z axis stuff.. why in my day all we had to get around with a 1D mouse. We had the X axis only and we liked it!
Next to our punch cards they were the bees knees.

Re:Luxury..

[Anonymous Coward]

"I already have a job but I'm looking for a gf if any ladies are reading this in Perth West Australia. I am not pathetic." .. I am not _that_ pathetic

We already know you're pathetic.

Re:Luxury..

[Fred_A]

Luckily you can still get 1D mice and relive your golden years :)

Re:Luxury..

[It'sYerMam]

Yeah?? Well we didn't even have a mouse - we had to get a battery and manually apply current to the correct pins of the cable!
You try doing THAT when everything went PS2 - we didn't even pins.

What will it take?

[Andy_R]

As with all technologies: A killer app.

Re:What will it take?

[fuzzix]

As with all technologies: A killer app.

Perhaps a desktop environment like Sun's Project Looking Glass in conjunction with a 3D output device (like a VR helmet or 3D monitor) could make such an input device feel more natural.

I haven't used Looking Glass yet so I'm not sure how well suited it would be...

Re:What will it take?

[arose]

A robot sniper controled by glue and string?

Re:What will it take?

[Fred_A]

Maybe you could sell it in Nigeria.

Re:What will it take?

[gregmac]

As with all technologies: A killer app.

And users with big, heavily trained forearms? Hold your mouse up in the air for 30 minutes, then see how nice your arm feels. Then think about doing that all day long :)

Re:What will it take?

[tabrnaker]

You scared of a little physical exercise? At least it has more potential for ergonomics than a conventional mouse.

Re:What will it take?

[marvinalone]

As all killer apps for new technology: Porn

what will it take to get people to use them?

[it0]

What about RSI or a killer app?
I see nobody using a 3d desktop so why the 3d mouse?

I don't know about others but I never had the feeling with quake that it would be more efficient to play with a 3d mouse?

Nice gadget, but probably not practical in use.

4D Mouse

[ProstheticSwan]

I hear you can make a 4 dimensional one from extra delorean parts.

Re:4D Mouse

[CMRichar]

yeah, but I also heard that you have to sustain a scroll speed of 88 miles/hour for it to work correctly..and then it gets really, really cold.

Interesting concept

[Ratface]

And in answer to the people asking what's the point...

a) Because it's a neat hack
b) It could be used for simple 3D point scanning to measure points on a 3D model
c) Could be used to manipulate information in a 3D CAD/drawing progeam, or to navigate or move objects in a solar representation or similar spatially oriented program
d) Because it's a neat hack. Sheesh what more reason do you need?

Re:Interesting concept

[Fizzol]

>Because it's a neat hack. Sheesh what more reason do you need?

Yes, it's a neat hack. But when the question is raised "what will it take to get people to use them?" it needs a better answer than "it's a neat hack."

Re:Interesting concept

[Confused]

This mouse uses 3 strings to measure distances. For scanning, this reduces the scranning volume dramatically. For example, it would be impossible to scann a simple cube with that mouse, because one of the strings needs to move through the cube. The mouse works only for moving around empty space.

The best use I can imagine for this thing is to attach a fly to the pointer an track it's movements.

Next on Slashdot: Nano-Piercing for flies made easy.

Re:Interesting concept

[bechthros]

strings... don't those become cumbersome? get snagged on things like your hand?

I just kinda figgered it'd be a hand shaped thing with a rfid tag and three antennae... seems like a perfectly legit use for rfid (for once).

But then, as long as we're being innovative, how about a pair of gloves with an rfid in the tip of each finger, combined with OS's and apps that make use of ten discrete interface points (using a traditional mouse, or even a 3D one, is still like using one finger - why not use all ten?), with distibuted antennae around the edge of the monitor?

Um, patent pending, or something...

Re:Interesting concept

[Twinbee]

Even in 2D programs, this would be useful. Think of simple controls like moving a slider or zooming in/out. There are plenty of other program specific functions too. For example, in paint programs, it could represent the opacity (translucency level). Almost any type of program could benefit from the extra dimension. In fact, the mouse wheel on a lot of mice already counts as this 'extra 3rd dimension'. But unfortunately, it uses discrete steps to funtion, rather than a smooth continuous movement (one would think there'd be a market for analogue mouse wheels, but no company seems to produce them... shame...).

Re:Interesting concept

[gfxguy]

I think that would be pretty awkward when anybody seriously using paint programs is also using pressure sensitive pens.

But there are certainly some good uses for a 3D mouse or other pointer in some 3D applications. People have mentioned CAD, but there are also things like examining volumetric visualizations of 3D data (like medical imaging). Games could even take advantage, and you wouldn't need 3D glasses or anything fancy - good use of shadows and other visual cues gives a good enough representation.

Keep in mind some of the real interesting parts of a 3D mouse - not just moving in 3 dimensions, but many 3D mice allow you to rotate the mouse... so you move in 3D and press the button to select an item, then you can look at it from any angle by rotating the mouse...

There's a lot of good uses, IMO, although I also freely admit that it'd be games that cause something like this to catch on "mainstream."

Re:Interesting concept

[System.out.println()]

Microsoft's tilt wheels are slightly analog - that is, they don't click, and the units at which they trigger scrolling seem much smaller. I find that for UI's (particularly iwth OS X's smooth scrolling), it's a fantastic device. (I don't use mine, though, because the trackpad is too damn convenient.)

The problem, though, is games. Every FPS in existence is tuned to a clicky wheel (often for changing weapons), and since MS doesn't seem to let you remap the left and right tilt to a weapons change, these make terrible gaming mice.

Re:Interesting concept

[Anonymous Coward]

no it doesn't need a better answer than "it's a neat hack". I bet your parents had to buy you all the latest stuff so kids would play with you. $20 says you're in marketing. If you can't sell it, it ain't worth doing, right?

Re:Interesting concept

[Dread_ed]

We refer to this as a fix for a nonexistant problem.

I don't know if anyone remembers the Honda Prelude with 4 wheel steering back in the 80's, but it was a really neat technology. The car would handle like mad at low and high speeds and was incredibly stable. However, the option cost about $4k and was not widely used. The reason? No one needed it that bad, the Prelude had great handling as it was.

Now we see a system the is almost exactly the same used on large American trucks. This makes alot of sense and will sell. It helps people park these land barges in parking lots without squishing the VWs and can help you get your trailer out of or into a tight spot. Definitely a better application of the technology from a sales and marketing point of view.

IMHO the only reason other than 3d development for a 3d mouse is for games that have a 3d environment (credit the other posters for bringing up Descent). But when has a game ever caused people to upgrade their computers or perephrials? Huh?

Re:Interesting concept

[dbIII]

d) Because it's a neat hack. Sheesh what more reason do you need?

e) Because if you are generating points for 3d pr0n the more hands on the device the better.

what's the purpose?

[softwave]

what will it take to get people to use them?
seriously, a purpose?
I remember that Logitech had a pointing device that would allow 3D-movement, that was like 10 years ago. Can't remember the name though. I frankly don't see in what niche there would be a use for a 3D-mouse. Not even gaming, not even 3D-development (such as CAD/CAI). But I'm curious to hear it from other users...

Re:what's the purpose?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps it'll be useful in virtual worlds. Second Life content design or something?

Re:what's the purpose?

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe it was called the Cyberman or Cyberman 3D, it was neat for playing Descent.

Re:what's the purpose?

[BearJ]

The Spaceball is an example. Still around today, and in use in 3D CAD and animation. I want one, but man are they expensive, even on eBay.

Re:what's the purpose?

[softwave]

Exactly, the Cyberman, that's what it was..! :)
But still, eventhough it was nice to play Descent with, it didn't really broke through. I can't help but notice a certain similarity between 3D mice and novelty pointing devices for gaming consoles such as that bazooka (for the nintendo SNES) or that silly gun for the NES. Anyone remember those? ;) How many games actualy had support for them? Two? Three? Eventualy, it didn't work neither, due to lack of supporting software ;/
I have a certain reticence and I strongly suspect those 3D mice will be destined the same fate..

What will it take to get people to use them?

[GillBates0]

3D mice have been floating around for a while, what will it take to get people to use them?

Most likely a functional 3D GUI.

A different solution...

[Oscaro]

...can be built with two analog joysticks. See here

Re:A different solution...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I prefer this one. Less components, probably simpler math. Would be nice to have some source code...

Re:A different solution...

[initialE]

So you want to play Virtual On?

Replacement

[Zorilla]

Cool! Maybe soon I'll be able to search for a replacement for my Nintendo Power Glove! Oh, wait...

That "interesting", but what about...

[ShaggyZet]

...just using the wheel as the third dimension, depth? And not just for zooming in on a window, but for actually navigating in a 3d space. I never much liked the idea of a scroll wheel anyway. It's find for reading documents (yes, I know that all some people use their computers for), but it doesn't really fit in to any other UI paradigm that exists today. I think using it for depth in a 3d space would feel very natural.

Re:That "interesting", but what about...

[FinestLittleSpace]

it alreayd is in many 3d cad apps, but i think you have a point. i also think a good example would be using the wheel in your desktop manager to scroll through windows by their 'height' from the desktop. swish, i reckon.

Re:That "interesting", but what about...

[Pulse_Instance]

The only reason I first got a wheel mouse was for switching weapons in FPS games. Now I use the wheel constantly for things like coding, editing term papers and reading /. I know of no easier way to scroll through 200+ comments in an article then with a wheel, it is way less effort then moving your whole arm.

Re:That "interesting", but what about...

[brett42]

It's been done to a limited extent. Warcraft 3 uses the wheel to zoom in/out, and there are some image manipulation programs that let zoom into the cursor'd part of the picture with the wheel, which is cool, but kind of disconcerting when you're used to using it for scrolling.

For first person style navigation, especially games, wasd/arrows+mouse is probably the easiest method .

Re:That "interesting", but what about...

[geekSession]

i also think a good example would be using the wheel in your desktop manager to scroll through windows by their 'height' from the desktop

Isn't there an option for this in the nVidia geForce driver settings?

Re:That "interesting", but what about...

[geekSession]

Opening links in a new tab, or closing tabs in Firefox? =D

Re:That "interesting", but what about...

[FinestLittleSpace]

Um... bugger.................. UUUHHH.......I CLAIM PRIOR ART! I claim prior art! I CLAIM PRIOR ART! I claim prior art! I CLAIM PRIOR ART! I claim prior art!

there.. that's my ass covered :-)

Re:That "interesting", but what about...

[Daniel]

I had sawfish configured something like this for years: scroll the mouse up to raise a window, scroll it down to lower the window. Unfortunately, I've been trying out KDE lately and its window manager doesn't seem to know about the scroll wheel :-(

Daniel

Re:That "interesting", but what about...

[ShaggyZet]

Grumble, grumble. That's what the middle button was used for in Mosaic 1.0, more than 5 years before anyone thought of the wheel mouse. Damn wheels getting in the way of where my middle button's supposed to be.

Re:That "interesting", but what about...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm... The wheel is also the middle button. Try pressing it so it clicks.

3D mice to outsell ordinary 2D mice in 5 years

[Anonymous Coward]

... in Japan!

6d mouse more useful

[XavierXeon]

a space mouse has 6 degrees of freedom and is very useful when working in a "3d" environment such as CAD http://www.3dconnexion.com/products.htm

Re:6d mouse more useful

[mt-biker]

Absolutely. I use a space-mouse at work (VR), but I guess relatively few people on slashdot know about them?

You don't move it around like a regular mouse, rather you hold the hockey-puck sized control in your hand and push/pull it _gently_ in one of 3 directions. Being able to twist the puck gives you the other 3 degrees of freedom.

The device is sprung and returns to center when you let go. The total movement of the puck is only about a centimetre (0.393700787 inches ;) in any direction.

When you're used to using a normal mouse, it takes a while to get the feel of the relatively sensitive spacemouse, but since your hand remains stationary on the desk while using it, it's not tiring.

Drawbacks: Cost - the things are EXPENSIVE! Also I doubt it would totally replace a normal mouse - with the speed turned up high it wouldn't be accurate enough for fine tasks, and with the speed lower it'd take you forever to get from one side of the screen to the other. The space mouse is intended to manipulate models in 3D space.

Re:6d mouse more useful

[Pete (big-pete)]

a space mouse has 6 degrees of freedom

Hmm, I thought about that before clicking on the assiciated link, and managed to come up with 6 degrees of freedom for my single (the link uses two devices to get 6 degrees of freedom) regular mouse in 3D space...wasn't easy though.

1. left/right
2. forward/backward
3. mouse wheel
4. up/down
5. pitch
6. roll
7. yaw

Damn - actually that's 7, just realised I had forotten to count up/down - thought I only had 5 and came up with yaw... :)

-- Pete.

Re:6d mouse more useful

[CodeArtisan]

When I bought "Forsaken" for a my PC a few years ago, it came with a free SpaceOrb (a 3D controller). That wasn't too expensive. After some configuration (with the help of a virtual reality chicken), it worked pretty well. Not much suppport for NT/XP unfortunately, so it has slowly become obsolete.

see: inexpensive 3d mouse

[192939495969798999]

What they really mean is "inexpensive 3d mouse". There are already 3d mice available for CAD applications, but they cost A LOT (Logitech Magellan for $579).

Re:see: inexpensive 3d mouse

[Anonymous Coward]

that was the most scary webshop I've seen, I'd never pay $600 to them. Not eavin $6.

Pity about the threads

[mrjb]

I'd imagine it would possible to 'trace' 3d objects with this by simply moving the little ring over the surface of 3d objects. Unfortunatly, the threads would get in the way. Has anyone thought of other uses besides this and the pong game?

Re:Pity about the threads

[FTL]

> I'd imagine it would possible to 'trace' 3d objects with this by simply moving the little ring over the surface of 3d objects. Unfortunatly, the threads would get in the way.

You're thinking two-dimensionally. Flip the mouse over and mount/suspend it upside down. Then the strings are converging down to a point.

3d scanner

[Anonymous Coward]

They seriously have devices designed for scanning 3d objects in as a 3d model, I can see this being a cheap version of that....

I dunno

[foidulus]

I always thought the vagina mouse(not work safe!) was 3d....

Re:I dunno

[zeylisse]

Now that i call 1337 generation ,)

Re:I dunno

[Anonymous Coward]

wow... imagine a room full of happy secretaries!!! You'd have a lot of trouble getting them to go home at cease-play...

We need a Killer App?

[vashathastampedo]

These are widely available at the time - the newest coming out have names like "Doom 3" and "Half-Life 2".

These games are still basically driving games saddled by limited interaction with the environment. "Clicking" a door or other object to activate some canned response does not really qualify as interactivity to me.

Muscle fatigue...

[timbloid]

...is surely the problem with all these designs?

How many hours a day (out of an 8 hour day) do you think you could hold something (even of tiny mass like a mouse) in the air, away from your body.

And what happens when you want to type/relax/urinate? You put it down, lose your place in 3d space, and have to get it back to the same position to continue?

It's a nice hack, don't get me wrong, but there's a reason why helicopters use a 2 handed control system rather than a mouse. Doing it all with one hand just isn't very accurate, easy, or safe...

Re:Muscle fatigue...

[RPI Geek]

...is surely the problem with all these designs?

Maybe, maybe not... it al depends on how you use it. Try putting your elbow on the table and holding your hand steady in the air. Not so hard now, is it? Even holding that position for a while isn't that hard. Granted, it's harder than just resting it on the mouse that you already have, but I see no easy way around that without having a suspension system to hold your arm up. Now if you try standing up and holding your hand in place over the desk without steadying yourself, it's not so easy and it fatigues you a lot more.

And what happens when you want to type/relax/urinate? You put it down, lose your place in 3d space, and have to get it back to the same position to continue?

I would imagine that a good way to handle this problem would be to have a button on the mouse itself so that it only registers motion when you're holding the button down, analogous to how a regular mouse only registers motion when it's on the table. It may very well be annoying, but who really knows until someone tries it? I thought I'd hate scroll wheels before I'd used one, but after about 10 minutes I knew I'd never go back.

It's a nice hack, don't get me wrong, but there's a reason why helicopters use a 2 handed control system rather than a mouse. Doing it all with one hand just isn't very accurate, easy, or safe...

Very true. Helicopters encounter quite a bit of turbulence, and when they catch an updraft for example, the pilot's hand drops in relation to his/her body and that wouldn't be very easy safe or accurate at all. The difference is that when you're at your computer, most of the time you're on a pretty stable surface and so is the computer... so it's kind of a moot point.

Re:Muscle fatigue...

[lc_overlord]

or posssible at the time it was invented.

IT would be theoreticly possible to control a helocopter with lets say a spaceball mouse.
IT wouldn't be that unsafe or inacurate either, just let a computer fly and you telling it where to go.

>>>And what happens when you want to type/relax/urinate? You put it down, lose your place in 3d space, and have to get it back to the same position to continue?

there is this little button on the side you press down to make it work, release it and it stops working(stops sending 3d positional data).

Re:Muscle fatigue...

[kfg]

It's a nice hack, don't get me wrong, but there's a reason why helicopters use a 2 handed control system rather than a mouse.

I've found that using a flight yoke or wheel and pedal set to make nifty little 3D controlers without any need for string or hot glue.

The flight yoke is even a device dedicated to 3D navigation. Go figure.

KFG

Re:Muscle fatigue...

[Fred_A]

This problem has long been known as the "gorilla arm" syndrome and first appeared with the various touch screen systems (originally with light pens).

It's the main reason why this type of interface has been abandonned except for very casual use (for durations that won't exceed a few minutes).

Re:Muscle fatigue...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but when we all live in space stations with zero gravity it won't be a problem.

Re:Muscle fatigue...

[Fortyseven]

* FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP *

Still goin'...entering hour number 37...take that, science!

*FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP *

Re:Muscle fatigue...

[JCholewa]

> How many hours a day (out of an 8 hour day) do you think you could hold something
> (even of tiny mass like a mouse) in the air, away from your body.

For what it's worth, I have a Gyration mouse, with which you can control the screen by waving it about in air. The feeling is almost like using a laser pointer at a presentation, but I tend to get comfortable by tossing my arm at odd angles (like stretched back over the shoulder of my chair) while controlling the screen as normal. I have this mouse (which is heavier than a typical wireless mouse) up in the air the majority of the time, though I do have the option of putting it on my desk and using it as an optical mouse when I need to. Having optional modes like this do help against the difficulty you describe.

--
-JC
http://www.jc-news.com/coding/freedom/

Rube Goldberg?

[Blitzenn]

That was my first thought too. Why not just use the scroll wheel for the third dimension, z-axis? I would think that it would be a lot more intuitive after a bit of use. With the configurable controls you have today attached to your mouse you could set your axis any way you want. The article seems to take a Rube Goldberg approach to a 3-D mouse in my eyes. Hey where is the fly swatter attached to the hamster wheel to do the mouse clicks!

wheel mouse

[salec]

Why don't we use wheel as "depth" (zoom) command for 3D navigation in "world behind the screen"? That seems so obvious...

Those devices from TFA are more like "make your computer read your hand's 3d motion", which is IMHO too anti-ergonomic to be useful (except maybe for some kind of workout).

Re:wheel mouse

[ViolentGreen]

Why don't we use wheel as "depth" (zoom) command for 3D navigation in "world behind the screen"? That seems so obvious

I have thought as that as well. On very wheel mouse that I have ever used the scroll wheel "clicks" when you roll it (and on every click it scrolls.) For this to work properly, it will have to be a wheel that is truely analog.

What will it take?

[UncleBiggims]

What will it take to get people to use a 3D mouse? Not much! Once they see it and feel it they will throw away those flat 2D mice in a heart beat.

see the geek

[dominux]

got curious about the advert on the board. picture of the geek

Useability; A mouse is the wrong shape

[91degrees]

I was working as part of a research project for 3D (as well as 4D, 5D and 6D) designs for better comuter input devices. What we found was that a mouse is the wrong design.

Firstly, It quite simply doesn't make sense. Mice don't fly unless you throw them. This cognitive dissonance causes users considerable problems. We solved this quire easily by replacing the "mouse" with a "bat".

Secondly, it creates arm ache. Holding the bat up for several hours just isn't possible. This was solved by the simple and rather crude device of a counterweighted piece of string on a pully on the ceiling. Of course, this isn't goinf to be suitable for a home user. I suggest we'll probably need some sort of rotor assembly to avoid the tangle of strings and wires.

It appears that no other researchers have even looked into our research, preferring to reinvent the wheel at every step.

Re:Useability; A mouse is the wrong shape

[ZagNuts]

For 10 dollars I would have told you that you can't hold something in the air for several hours without getting tired, and that a new product deserves a new name.

I don't know if it's that other researchers prefer to reinvent the wheel so much as that these are obvious points.

Re:Useability; A mouse is the wrong shape

[91degrees]

For 10 dollars I would have told you that you can't hold something in the air for several hours without getting tired,

For 10 dollars?

Really? With Empirical proof, and studies determining exactly how long people can spend? Or would you just have guessed?

and that a new product deserves a new name.

Well, yes, it deserves a new name, but that's normally a marketing thing. We found is needs a new name.

Re:Useability; A mouse is the wrong shape

[Mark Programmer]

Could we get a link to the research you have mentioned? I'd be interested in looking at it, but I worry that a google search for "mouse" and "bat" isn't going to return anything helpful... ;)

Re:Useability; A mouse is the wrong shape

[gnugnugnu]

The word is "Usability"

The spelling is so bad on Slashdot people actually start believing the wrong spellings!

sigh

Re:Useability; A mouse is the wrong shape

[91degrees]

You missed out the comma.

I have two 1D mice

[Anonymous Coward]

One of them does the X axis, the other one does the Y axis.

No wait, that's my etch-a-sketch...

great!

[Janek Kozicki]

just two nights ago I wondered whether I should post "ask /." on how to make a 3d mouse. Such device will be very useful for debugging my CAE program (calculating concrete) that I write for my PhD.

now I'm off to make this mouse and see how it works. :))

This was invented

[Anonymous Coward]

..in Japan.

Game controller

[Anonymous Coward]

You could make a lot of cool games with it.. boxing, pong (has been made), guide-the-ring-around-the-wire-without-touching-it , and a lot more.. it doesnt really take long to think of a lot of posibilities for this kind of device. And not only for gaming.

It will take three words...

[artoo]

Project Lookng Glass (AKA 3D Window Manager)

Logitech Cyberman

[ender-iii]

Old news! No one care about it then, not one will care now....

What a lot of arm ache

[NoMercy]

I'm not sure about you, but I'd quickly get very bored of having to wave my mouse around in the air, unless someone can create a system which supports the whole arm and hand and measurement device to go along with the 3d mouse, there never going to take off.

We already have 3d mice

[TyrranzzX]

X-Axis (Left right) and Y-Axis (up down) are determined by the Ball.

Z-Axis (Foward, backward)is determined by the scroll.

Or you can use the keyboard and mouse like in so many FPS games. DUH!

Reson.

[Krunaldo]

Lets think, which OS will be the first to come out with an 3d GUI? The answer is Windows. So these guys must be employed by the evil lord of bill gates? Or is this a signal for us (The open source community) to make a 3d GUI. It's a signal for us... We must make an 3d GUI.So what're you guys waiting for?! GET TO WORK!!! I want my 3d GUI tomorrow! ;)

Re:Reson.

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this mean glowstick waving ravers will be the only users capable of using computers in the future?

I for one welcome our pill popping overlords.

No no no

[PKC Jess]

the problem with the 3D mouse is that it tires you arm. Anyone who's ever tried to play the NES with the power glove will tell you. You simply get exausted just trying to keep your arm still or even just keep it moving. Maybe its just because I'm hella weak in the arms but I haven't a doubt that I'm not the only person who think this is whats hindering such a device from the mass market.

Re:No no no

[Krunaldo]

3D mouse + 3D tetris alternative 3D pong. Might this be the answer for the question: How to make geeks exercise? Will we finnaly be able to get in shape and... d..da..date a g...gir..girl?

Re:No no no

[PKC Jess]

of course not, that only exercizes hand muscles already under heavy exercize by the common geek. uh... because they type a lot.

Re:No no no

[Krunaldo]

Well that only trains the hands... but why is all geeks right hand or sometimes(1 out of 10)left hand larger then the other? And thank you for giving me the correct spelling on the word exercize if that is the correct spelling, that is...

Re:No no no

[PKC Jess]

I'm a lefty and I use my left hand when using my mouse. (Although I don't switch the left and right keys, I'm just used to it now)

what will it take to get people to use them...

[inkdesign]

Problibly would help if it didn't look like some kind of bizarre ouija board... :0]

Finally

[jesler]

This is what I've been waiting for. My 2D mouse is so hard to grip and I'm always losing it between sheets of paper. It also has no mass, making it very hard to control as the usual laws of inertia don't apply.

- jesler

Spaceball

[Midnight Thunder]

Just to add to the list of already existing devices, there is also the Spaceball.

Re:Spaceball

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to add to the list of already existing devices, there is also the Spaceball.

Yes, the Spaceball, which my dad (who works in CAD/CAM) has used for just about fifteen years. A nifty device, useless outside of a 3D graphics context, and almost totally non-intuitive.

3D pointing devices are doomed to remain non-intuitive and virtually useless to the average consumer until 3D GUIs or even 3D displays are developed.

What about clicks?

[javatips]

That a nice little hack... But a mouse is a point and click device. So I would not call that a 3D mouse for now.

This hack is a just a point and stare device... Maybe he should had a switch on the ring to allow for clicks.

Re:What's the point? Music!

[argent]

With a 3d mouse you could build a digital theremin.

Woohoo

[Anonymous Coward]

My girlfriend has one of those 3D mouses!

Re:What's the point? Music!

[dirty]

Or you could do the same with modified antennas that a computer could read and end up with a far more natural system.

ummm wrong

[Ari_Haviv]

The answer is Linux and Solaris.
http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/

Re:ummm wrong

[__aahlyu4518]

But arent the 3d wm's developed with our 2d (+scroll wheel) mice in mind? I bet they are, as the adoption of the gui would go much quicker.

Just what we need

[houghi]

... another axis of evil.

Useful!

[Natchswing]

Now that we have the device we just need a practical use for it! It took years just to teach my parents how to access their email in two dimensions, now they'll have to learn to use the 3D mouse.

What it would take...

[Wilkshake]

For something like this to take off it would take a computer game with a large audience to buy/build this sort of thing. That and having a 3D mouse giving a discting advantage over it's 2D cousins.

I seriously can't see it happening any time soon though.

What it will take for me...

[Servo]

a 3D trackball.

I hate mice.

He's holding it wrong! (UI ideas)

[argent]

What you need is to put the ring on your finger, then get one of those laser-pointer mice and hold it: now you get:

3d position of your hand.
2d attitude of your hand (pitch and yaw).
2 or 3 buttons.

Now let's pretend you have a device like this that's light enough that you can wear it like a glove (no Nintendo jokes, please) and it's wireless. Add "roll" input and implement the buttons using something like midi drumsticks based on finger movements.

Now, what's the user interface for this going to look like?

Let's avoid the gorilla-arm problem by making a state change when you rest your hand on the table. On the table it acts like a mouse, except you're not holding a mouse you're just moving your hand or finger on the desktop and tapping it to click.

So, if you're used to a mouse, you can use it like a mouse.

Next, add gestures. Thumb and forefinger together and you're dragging. Curl your fingers into a fist and you just cut (grabbed) what you selected. Open your hand wide and you paste (drop).

Now, move your hand off the desktop. A couple of inches away and you shift to 3d mode. Gestures work the same way, but now you can drag windows forward and back as well as up and down.

Next, move your hand near the actual screen. Now it works like a light-pen with gestures, so you really can move that window out of the way by reaching up and dragging it. Why, you could even apply virtual white-out on your monitor!

Finally, curl your fingers around like you're pointing at something. Now you're using a virtual laser-pointer... the mouse moves wherever your finger is pointing at. This extends the "light pen" mode back away from the screen, so you can rest your hand on the desk without breaking that metaphor.

I'm sure that not all of these modes will end up being useful, but it wouldn't take much of a change in our existing user interfaces to find something that would work better than the mice we use now.

Re:He's holding it wrong! (UI ideas)

[Solder Fumes]

I like how you think. Now here's another wrinkle: make sure the pressure sensors in the fingertips have high enough resolution, and/or have a pressure sensitive pen that communicates with the glove while you're holding it. Now, you have a full-featured graphics tablet (pressure, position, tilt, rotation) where the only size limit is your tabletop. You could even use the third dimension to get an accurate simulation of airbrush spray at different heights. One more idea: Curl your fingers into a fist and place the edge of your hand on the table. You now have a virtual joystick. Squeeze fingers to activate trigger buttons, move your thumb around for hat switch etc.

Re:He's holding it wrong! (UI ideas)

[argent]

I hadn't thought about what you could do with props!

I like the idea of pressure sensors in the fingertips. They could also be used for distinguishing between "tap" and "drag" operations. If the positional and attitude sensors are good enough, they could also turn a dead (that is, no active sensors... just a piece of plastic or wood) stylus or any pen into a fine-point digitizer.

The joystick is cool. A dead joystick as a prop would help. You could also use a dead steering wheel (or hold a frisbee in midair) as a driving controller... it would be killer for games.

Those are good ideas. Bookmark this thread so you can use it as "prior art" when Microsoft "invents" it.

Re:He's holding it wrong! (UI ideas)

[kefkakiller]

I love the 3d mouse. It's so bad!

Re:He's holding it wrong! (UI ideas)

[lifebouy]

How about using cameras to track the glove movement? Use reflective tape of various colors for the software to track, then it knows also where your fingers are and really does know the attitude of your hand. You could really manipulate things. Digitally, as it were. (get it? aw, nevermind) I'm sure someone would try to scream patent, but the fact is, there is prior art all the way back to the PDP-6 at MIT back in '66 or so for using cameras in similar ways, albeit for robotics. David Silver was his name. So three cameras, positioned around the work area, could give very acurate posisitional data and allow a person to manipulate objects in very cool ways.

Who needs all the wires? Keep 'em

Also, as to why to do it? It's the hack! Look at the Altair. Why'd people assemble them? After completion, it was basically a box with blinkenlights and switches. So why did people do it? They did it because it was fun. It was about the challenge and the sweat and frustration and joy and... well if you don't understand, then it's not for you. Move along, there's nothing to see here.

Re:He's holding it wrong! (UI ideas)

[argent]

Cameras are one way. Ultrasound ranging is another: put three microphones just about anywhere around the workspace and a transmitter on the glove. Or three or four transducers and let the glove calculate its position using GPS techniques (the transducers can figure out their own geometry the same way).

The glove itself can be low-key that way, more like an Isotoner than a Power Glove.

bingo

[essreenim]

Until we are using holographic cubes instead of "pixeled" squares whats the point?
Its nice to know so many people are waisting their time..

What about a real 3D input solution?

[eric2hill]

The Spaceball is specifically designed for 3D manipulation. You can push/pull the ball in 6 directions, and twist it in another 3 axis. You don't physically move the ball around in 3D space, it's more like a 3D-enabled trackpoint.

Re:What about a real 3D input solution?

[DrJohnnie]

It's a off-topic, but it made me smile... The home page www.alsos.com of Allgemeiner Software Service (the company who sell the spaceball) has their intials in the upper left of the page. The webmaster must love his job!

Not a lot of math :yeesh:

[xtal]

I worked one of these for use with a 3D visualization system some time ago. The problem is that it is very difficult to do precision selection of the data - not precision movement of the mouse.

As other posters have aluded to, eventually you will get extreme muscle fatigue and want to hit something. At least, that's what I found. There was also a version that didn't rely on anything besides calculating arcs on the mouse and standard input.

The ultimate 3D input device has already been invented, it's the SpaceBall - not the cheap one, the $$$ work of art that you could get as an option with SGI boxen before they changed their logo. ;)

Re:mouse buttons

[Anonymous Coward]

That was best laugh I've had all day. Mod this up. A good joke is a good joke, no reason to get all offended.

RSI

[Matey-O]

Logitech had a '3d' mouse back around, oh, 1995 or so. It had a stationary base and a mouse shaped handle. The whole thing moved in an XY space, and you could roll-pitch-yaw the handle. It 'emulated a mouse' so that you could use it to replace one - or so the box said.

The REAL end result was hand pain the likse if which you've never seen. I had it back in the box and returned to the store in under 30 minutes.

How about a need for it?

[Kupek]

The desktop is a 2D environment. There is no need for a 3D mouse. If a 3D desktop environment actually catches on, then people will need a 3D mouse. Until then, it's a novelty.

Re:How about a need for it?

[kitty tape]

It's a chicken and egg problem though. Until 3D input devices catch on, 3D desktop environments will be no more than a novelty.

about 3d gui's

[__aahlyu4518]

Some people shouting here that it would take a 3d gui to use a 3d mouse. Others telling that thanx to the scroll wheel we already have 3d mice.

I guess both are true. The 3d gui's that are designed (for general use) right now are probably all designed with our '3d' scroll wheel mice, as the adoption of the gui will be more likely (and much quicker) if people won't need a new pointing device just to try the gui.

That's the problem with innovations. If you're not slightely backwards compatible, it will be very hard to succeed. But by being backwards compatible, true innovation is so much harder.

Re:What's the point? Music!

[argent]

If you want to go *analog*, I suppose you could, but that's so last-millennium. :)

Relative versus absolute motion.

[Anonymous Coward]

A conventional mouse is a relative positioning
device. This means that any amount of error or drift is acceptable.

This contraption is an absolute positioning device,
but it's still using the relative mouse hardware - that means it's going to be hellish inaccurate and suffer from all kinds of drift problems - quite aside from the string slippage issues.

As anyone who'se had to work with a touch-screen for any amount of time will tell you, keeping your arm up in the air for even 10 or 20 minutes is painful.

Unless you can solve the strain issues and the absolute positioning problems, any kind of device that you wave around in the air is going to be doomed.

The Spaceball seems like a reasonable alternative - but it too suffers considerable issues. It's very difficult to accurately translate around the 3D world without inducing unintentional rotational movement. As a result, you typically need to use the buttons to constrain motion to translate-only or rotate-only. I've never gotten comfortable with them.

Using a mouse with a mouse wheel as the third axis works OK though - but in a 3D application like CAD, it's better to have a 'working plane' that's drawn in 3D perspective that the mouse rolls along and use the mouse wheel to provide 'vertical' offset from that 2D plane.

what will it take?

[dAzED1]

it'll take catia, or some other cad program. There's something we use here called a spacemouse that covers 3-d space. Its been around for a long time. We have some here that are several years old.

What's it gona take? The need to traverse 3d space. There exists mice for traversing it already, at this point we're waiting on gui's and apps to justify it (things other than cad's, where they've been in use for many years).

Personal opinion? For the things that a spacemouse-like thing would be useful, we'll just skip it and go to some other UI. I can't imagine someone playing a game using a spacemouse - I say that having actually *used* one, so the uninformed can keep their opinions to themselves :P For a game, we'd only need such a thing for first-person perspective, and I'm sure a 3d environ (sensors on your hands, and on the 3d glasses on your head) would be far more desirable. A spacemouse might be interesting for an overhead-type game, like Everquest or Warcraft/Starcraft, but...perfectly good spacemouse already *exist* that could be used for that. Again, its merely a matter of getting the app/OS to need/use it.

The short: it will take a need for it, and it will take apps and an OS supporting it. The device is already around.

Alternatives

[RealTobriand]

I must say, I don't quite see why you couldn't adapt a standard 2D optical mouse for 3D uses simply by making the sensor more sensitive and analogue (i.e. not just returning 1 or 0 for the strength of the light, but also how strong the light is). Then you just need a plain mousemat, and some drivers to read the newly put in sensor, and you should be able to track the mouse's Z co-ordinate. Maybe. Or perhaps using a webcam would work a little better. Constant pattern and the tracing of the images of that pattern would give direction in X-Y, and the size of the pattern would give the Z-co-ord. Problem there would be the lack of buttons, of course, but I don't imagine that'd be one *too* hard to deal with... you could always stick a digicam to the bottom of a mouse and use that for motion detecting, and the mouse-buttons for actual clicks. There's probably quite a few other ways to do a similar trick as well... Perhaps the best (though certainly the most complex) would be a 3D arm with a cam on the end and a couple of buttons. And probably a release button to be held to move in Z so you could keep your hand rested on it. I imagine you could make one without too much trouble, though, out of Lego Technic, a few bits of mouse, and a digicam. And possibly a small light to make sure the mat was always illuminated enough. Anyways.

Phantom haptic devices

[Anonymous Writer]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Phantom devices. They would work better than any of the devices mentioned in the article, and actually provide force-feedback. I've never used one, but I presume that if you let go of it, it probably could stay in the same position you left it in, so that wouldn't be an issue like it would with the other devices. The site also has 3D CAD applications that use it, and an SDK.

Re:Phantom haptic devices

[RealTobriand]

At a very brief glance that's pretty close to what I was on about when I was talking about the arm made out of lego mixed with a ripped apart mouse and a digicam. Doesn't surprise me someone's already made a nice-looking non-hack version though ;)

I do good with just X and Y

[p51d007]

Please don't add the Z axis to the mess I already have. I'm doing good just to figure out the X & Y axis......... ;)

These people don't get it!

[Anonymous Coward]

You think you get wrist strain from typing all day, or moving your regular 2D mouse around on a flat pad??

Try holding the damn thing in mid-air all day...

I write 3D medical simulation software...

[Anonymous Coward]

...and I use the normal 2 mouse axis to navigate the 'camera' on the x & y axis and the scroll button for the z axis, it works a treat and everyone who's tried it finds it incredibly intuitive.

A far better solution in software

[FreeUser]

...can be built with two analog joysticks.

While that is far superior to the string and glue solution, an even better solution can be achieved in software.

Map the scroll wheel to the z-axis. Navigate the x-y plane with the usual mouse/trackball movements, and the z-axis with the scroll wheel. Full freedom of movement in all three dimensions with existing hardware and either existing device drivers (change the software itself, e.g. Blender) or a tiny kernel patch (change the device driver to deliver z-axis information, in preparation for holographic displays :-)).

Why do people feel compelled to offer such incredibly byzantine solutions to technical problems that have such simple, straightforward solutions staring them in the face?

Re:A far better solution in software

[HisMother]

Because the mouse-based solution from the front page lets you navigate 3 dimensions by moving an object in 3 dimensions! Your solution allows 3-d movement using a 2-d interface -- not the same at all.

select color

[johntreffer]

The thing I don't read hear it is perfect to select a color. Colorspaces are usualy 3D now you have a 2D space to select a color and a slider beside that to select brightness. You still can't see 3D but at least you can move around in one movement.

Aeroduet, anyone? :)

[Audigy]

In 1995, Creative Labs came out with this nifty pen/mouse combo... thing... it was infra-red, and was 3D, like many of these other devices.

Of course the software only ran on Win 3.1/95 ...and they're impossible to find nowadays, but it's still a neat concept... 10 years old :)

What will it take to get people to use them?

[Oligonicella]

A reason.

Look, just for the screw of it doesn't suffice.

Lots of other cool projects

[PetoskeyGuy]

http://neil.fraser.name/hardware/

He has lots of other projects out there. My favorite is the mouse trap. I love the description...

The body of the trap is made from a shortbread tin. Mice enter through a hole cut in the lower-right side of the tin. Once inside, they are forced to walk though a toilet paper tube to reach the bait. On the bottom of the tube is an infra-red LED which is aimed at a photo transistor at the top. These components are taken from the write-protect sensors of a 5.25" disk drive. When the light beam is interrupted, the floppy drive's main motor starts to spin. This instantly retracts a piece of coat hanger wire that was holding the door open. The door (which is made from shielding from a television set and is hinged with a rod from a clothes drier and a drinking straw) falls closed, and is secured by five fridge magnets. A switch from a vending machine detects that the door has shut, and cuts power to the motor. A computer power supply provides 5v for the sensor and 12v for the motor. Only minor modifications had to be made to the floppy drive's controller board to get it to spin the motor when the infra-red sensor was tripped.

Only one thing remaining

[Bitmanhome]

what will it take to get people to use them?

All I need is a hypersurface to rest it on.

Re:mouse buttons

[garver]

Ouch. I didn't mean to troll... Just pointing out that one person's feature is another person's appendix.

Nonononononono!

[Half-pint HAL]

The scroll-wheel is evil and should be removed from public knowledge. It causes thouroughly nasty stresses on the finger that uses it.

Stop Using Wheelmice.

Hal,

Accidental ergonomist

Goodbye arm, hello tennis elbow

[FreeUser]

Your solution allows 3-d movement using a 2-d interface -- not the same at all.

No ... my solution is a hell of a lot better. "Moving in 3d" means carporal tunnel not just in your wrist, but in your elbow as well. It will make tennis elbow look like a picnic.

With a logitech trackball and scroll wheel, I can navigate three dimensions with almost no movement at all. No carporal tunnel despite spending 12+ hours/day using the thing. No mouse can compete, and certainly no 3-d doohickey that requires arm and elbow movement can.

Re:Goodbye arm, hello tennis elbow

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell are you talking about?

Why stop at 3D?

[V_Pundit]

I imagine if we added a video camera we could sync multiple mouse sessions and overlay the input strings to create a 4D mouse. Wonder what we could se that for?

You vomited because it was so good!

[Anonymous Coward]

Descent was damned near the best "FPS" type game I've ever played. No game has ever matched it's fun, speed, and excitement. Descent 3 wasn't even as good as Descent or D2.

I used to play the game for hours with my friends on the LAN. We'd have the most sick dogfights and chases you could ever have in a game.

Ohh, the good old days. Man, that game ruled.

Re:You vomited because it was so good!

[Clueless Moron]

I agree; D3 is amazing. I never get motion sickness from it, but then I'm mostly immune to seasickness too.

The problem with D3 is the really steep learning curve. Just think of what's involved with doing a semicircular strafe while also ascending and accelerating towards the target: that's five simultaneous axes right there, plus you have to deal with the weapons selection and firing of course.

Anyway, once learned, it's amazing with what ease and grace one can dance about. I even stopped getting lost while flying upside down...

Truly an amzing, and underappreciated, game. I still play it.

Re:You vomited because it was so good!

[Anonymous Coward]

5 axes my ass.

One to rotate around, one to ascend, and one to accelerate along.

Are you trying to count two axes for the same rotation, and adding time to the mix as well?

Re:You vomited because it was so good!

[Sekmu]

3 dimensions imply '6 axes':
3 standard directional
3 standard rotational

ie in flight:
directional: thrust/reverse, sideslip, altitude
rotational: roll, pitch, yaw

Descent let you move around any and all of these axes at the same time.

so:
"semicircular strafe" : 2 axes (yaw while side slipping - at least. you can actually do a great strafe with 4 axes with lots of practice)
"while also ascending" : 1 axes (in order to keep this as a 'semicircular strafe' while doing the ascention, you need to add the previously mentioned 4th axis of pitch to keep facing the target)
"and accelerating towards the target" : 1 last axis

= 5

and of course get a joystick with a twistable handle (woo, sidewinder 3d pro) or somesuch and you can roll while you do all of the above for a nice 6 axes.

Descent rules!

Nice, but

[butane_bob2003]

I prefer the WASD keys and a 2D mouse for moving about the digital ether. A step up from there is a joystick and a good sized track ball. While working at Midway games I got to mess with all kinds of 3d input devices. A few accellerometers can make a pretty cool/accurate input device.

Is this even good for 3D

[quantax]

I see a lot of posters saying this would be useful for 3D work (a pretty obvious answer), and as a 3D animator I'm unsure as to how this would really help with the way things currently work. Using Maya as an example, Maya simulates 3D in 2D to display it on the screen, and its current workflow is based entirely upon its 2D-manipulating-3D nature. Unless this approach was made radically different, there would be no difference in the process really except in the way objects translate; however then you run into issues of local and world-translation. Are you moving in 3D in relation to the camera or are you moving in relation to worldspace. Is the space that the mouse moves in absolute or relative? In order for such systems to become useful, the actual interfaces themselves must be adapted to take advantage of such features.

3D mice are useless/merely gee-wiz gadgets until a company developes an application that genuinely takes advantage of both working in a 3D space and moving a real-life analog to navigate & manipulate that space. I can see such technology being useful with holograms, or as another poster mentioned, with medical simulations that involve volumes, like a simulation of operating upon a person where everything about the way you handle your tools matter. Until z-space becomes an actual factor in application environments, 3D mice will not rise above other such technological toys such as 3D shutter-glasses, and the 3D gloves (though that nurbs modeling glove system shown on slashdot a couple days actually sounded interesting for once, and not just 'gee-wiz this is cool just cause its 3D').

Logitech CyberMan 3D "Mouse" (Circa mid-90s)

[IllogicalStudent]

Anyone else remember this from Logitech a while back? I remember Sierra Online was trying to hawk it in their product catalog (disguised as a games magazine) bundled with their games back in the mid-90s, when FPS games were just starting to take off.

Found a review of it here.

Apparently, Logitech even made a second, newer version, as seen here. I had the original, I thought it sucked.

Interesting...

[T3kno]

I'm thinking I'm going to build one of these. I think one could eliminate the pully slippage problem and aleviate the need for weights with the use of a simple coil spring attached to the pully arm and a spool for the string to wind and unwind from.

"What will it take to get people to use them?"

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh...a need to do so!

Interesting case study

[Anonymous Coward]

The book Paper Prototyping includes an interesting case study.

In the mid 90s, a company was working on a new product for remote learning. The design was to have a 3D rendered virtual classroom, with 3D avatars of students, and a teacher avatar up on a stage. Users would walk their avatars in and out of the classroom, to the library, etc. It would simulate the experience of being in a school environment, without the person having to leave their desk.

The company made up some paper prototypes of the system, for usability testing. Users pretty uniformly panned the 3D interface. One person wanted to know why he had to *walk* his 'guy' into the classroom - why couldn't he just get into the class instantly?

The company decided that the 3D interface reduced usability, so they scrapped it and went with a simpler, clearer 2D interface. The 3D would have been the hardest thing to implement, so this change sped up development.

IMHO, 3D rarely adds anything. It has a high whizz factor and demos well, but for actual *use*? No thanks.

Handview.com link

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone else find that Handview.com link ridiculously uniformative. Its loaded with buzz words and makes it sound like it is a standard mouse which magically transforms into a 3D mouse when you need it to. My bet is that its just a mouse driver to change the scroll wheel into the third input.

Snappy Answers to Stupid Questions

[npsimons]

Q: what will it take to get people to use [3d mice]?

A: Less than $1,850.00 price tags. Next question.

A total pain

[pbjones]

I have experimented with a few 3D ideas over the years and the big killer, which I can overcome, is that there is a large amount of phyical effort required to hold an object in the air. Currently you rest you wrist in a surface, but with a 3D device there is no surface. What you need to do is ... send me money for the answer.

Parent answers "why not use it" question

[Anonymous Coward]

Uses like the pointer mode and "just works how I expect it" things such as reaching up and pushing a button directly are the sorts of uses that would get 3d pointer tech adopted.

Of course, a glove which can sense orientation is probably a bit expensive these days (I'd imagine you'd want to triangulate its position with three separate receivers...)

Re:What's the point? Music!

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything's analog, my friend. Using discrete math to simplify things doesn't eliminate the underlying reality of the universe. Oh well, you better go back to your digital-ready headphones, I guess.

This is kinda cool...

[cr0sh]

It is really an upside-down version of a device that appeared in issue 13 (Jan/Feb 1994) of PCVR. The article was entitled "A Simple 3D Tracker" by Stefan Elsner. It utilised digital encoders and motors to provide tensioning on the lines. Four lines were ran from the four upper corners of a room from the motor/spool/sensor packages at the floor corners of the room (and over pulleys at the top corners), and down to a mount which had a sensor to measure yaw for an HMD. Pitch and roll of the head were done using gravity pendulums on the side and back of the head. The idea was to be able to track the user's head position, with 6DOF, in a large volume, cheaply and accurately.

Interestingly, the issue also covered building an arm-based tracker and electrolytic tilt-sensor interfacing, as well as sourceless mag tracking on a homebrew budget. One of these days I hope to be able to find the time to scan in all of my back issue and present them on the web for others to download. I have the permission from the publisher/editor of the magazine (Joseph Gradecki). He has a website (I think it is josephgradecki.com or something similar), and made mention of putting them up, but last I looked all he had were the magazine covers, and nothing more. But, at some point I am going to do this - I have his permission, and all the back issues. Maybe somebody will find the articles useful...

In my day we had...

[Q-Kumbers]

...the Power Glove. And we loved it. It's so bad.