Apple, Motorola Plan An iTunes-Friendly Phone

PabloJones writes "Apple and Motorola have come together to create a new mp3-enabled cell phone, according to this Reuters article. It says that the device will be capable of storing about 12 songs, and will be fully integrated with iTunes. Perhaps this is a beginning of a new relationship between the two companies, after the PowerPC problems between the two in recent years."

Comments

Sounds Good...

[Dozix007]

It sounds like a great idea, I have to say I have been wating for such a cellphone for a while. I do have a few potential issues though. Battery life and size. While the Palm Cell phones were cool, they would eat a battery in about an hour and were about as sleek as carrying a forty pound rock.

Re:Sounds Good...

[mothz]

Sure, it sounds like a good idea now, but you won't be too happy when poor yields force Motorola to "roll back" the phones to hold only seven songs, just like Apple's 500MHz G4 fiasco.

Re:Sounds Good...

[cynic10508]

It sounds like a great idea, I have to say I have been wating for such a cellphone for a while. I do have a few potential issues though. Battery life and size. While the Palm Cell phones were cool, they would eat a battery in about an hour and were about as sleek as carrying a forty pound rock.

What would be really cool is if this was integrated with Bluetooth into a Motorola phone. Since my Powerbook has built-in Bluetooth the phone could then just stream from the Powerbook and use the 12-song space as a cache.

Re:Sounds Good...

[Anonymous Coward]

they have that. it's called a Sony Ericsson P900.

Re:Sounds Good...

[Anonymous Coward]

A Bluetooth stream would suck, too much interference and too little bandwidth to make up for it. Plus that would eat up battery life like no other.

Re:Sounds Good...

[cynic10508]

I should have prefaced: I'm on a CDMA network, not GSM.

Re:Sounds Good...

[SphericalCrusher]

I'm pretty sure that Motorola would have a say in this, since they are developing the phones after all. ;) And since they do, the battery life should be absolutely awesome. My Motorola v400 phone's battery life is simply amazing -- I can charge it and leave it on for three days straight. I've never used an iPod though, but I hear the battery life isn't that good. I guess it's good that Apple isn't designing the phones then.

Re:Sounds Good...

[krails]

Sorry, but 3 days of battery isn't amazing. I get 3-4 days out of my Treo 600 and that's with the built in Palm stuff and a decent amount of use.

I'm sure this would have an SD slot to let you carry more than the 12 songs as well. Heck I carry about 100 songs on a 512MB SD card in the Treo for when I don't have my iPod with me.

http://kevin.railsback.com/blog/

Re:Sounds Good...

[SphericalCrusher]

Who says my phone went dead after three days? It's day three and my phone battery isn't depleted yet. ;)

Re:Sounds Good...

[NeuralAbyss]

3 days is amazing? I get a week plus out of my Nokia 6610.. it's a year old and the battery's still going strong.

Re:Sounds Good...

[NothingToSeeHere]

they have that. it's called a Sony Ericsson P900.

That's what I was thinking. I'd like to own an Apple phone as I'm expecting it to be easier to use, better looking, well integrated with iTunes and nearly bug-free.

But right now, I've got a Sony Ericsson P800 with a 64 MB Memory Stick. It plays OGG Vorbis using OggPlay, and I can convert any song or entire playlists to OGG directly from iTunes using an AppleScript I wrote for that purpose. It internally uses mplayer and oggenc for conversion.

For mobile use, oggs are the BEST! I figure with all the background noise while commuting, 32kHz @quality "-1" work just fine. This setting results in bitrates around 32 - 48 kbps, or song files between 1 and 2 MB in size!!! No problem getting two albums onto my phone...

Re:Sounds Good...

[Toraz Chryx]

Three days is amazing?

I've clocked my Nokia 6310i at three weeks...

Re:Sounds Good...

[neko9]

same here with Nokia 6150.

Re:Sounds Good...

[OS24Ever]

My Treo 300 would last a work day (6 - 9 hrs) with heavy phone use. DOn't know about the 600. But eating the battery in an hour is a bit of a stretch.

Re:Sounds Good...

[Cobalt Jacket]

This thing does have Bluetooth.

Re:Sounds Good...

[mjpaci]

My blackberry 957 can go close to 10 days without needing a recharge. Granted, it's not a phone.

--Mike

Re:Sounds Good...

[J Isaksson]

My girlfriend's Nokia 6230 can play mp3 and aac files, and also play mpeg4 files. And it (as another poster wished for) also has Bluetooth. I can't seem to find it sold in the US though, at least not under that name.

Re:Sounds Good...

[thatguywhoiam]

It sounds like a great idea, I have to say I have been wating for such a cellphone for a while.

What would really rock is if that cellphone had the iPod scrollwheel/clickwheel. I would love one of those instead of the old keypad. I mean really, how often do you dial out numbers instead of picking them from a list? Even number dialing/SMS would not be significantly slower (possibly quicker) if the screen interface is done properly - like, increase the screen resolution and display the numbers in a circle, with a pointer arrow... Ok, too much coffee. )

Still, it makes me sad to think that beautiful scrollwheel will stay with Apple's things only as I believe they have patented the thing.

Re:Sounds Good...

[blugu64]

ohhh Rotary dial cell phone....droool ;)

Re:Sounds Good...

[SphericalCrusher]

Read my reply to the first comment made about this. http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=115855&thre shold=1&commentsort=0&tid=176&mode=thread&pid=9809 005#9809127

Re:Sounds Good...

[SphericalCrusher]

Read my previous comment to the first person that said that.

http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=115855&th reshold=1&commentsort=0&tid=176&mode=thread&pid=98 09005#9809127

And no, there is no way in hell your phone has that good of a battery life.

Re:Sounds Good...

[NeuralAbyss]

That's pretty decent.. I'm assuming it's a PDA or such?

Re:Sounds Good...

[mjpaci]

Here are some specs on the Blackberry 957.

Uh, woo?

[i_am_syco]

I thought that the whole reason Apple was winning because they weren't selling 12-song devices.

Re:Uh, woo?

[Al Dimond]

Hey, I'm not selling 12-song devices and I'm not winning... must be something else...

Re:Uh, woo?

[bedouin]

Apple has nothing to lose from this, but a great deal to gain. There's people out there who don't know, or think they want an mp3 player -- this will get them hooked not only on the idea, but on Apple's intuitive interface. When it comes time to upgrade to something that can hold more than 12 songs, chances are they'll consider something iTunes compatible (i.e. an iPod).

And even if it means no iPod sales, it still gives Apple stronger brand recognition.

Re:Uh, woo?

[Turmio]

They aren't selling 12-song devices themselves but I guess they can win by selling/licensing technology to companies that are doing that.

Re:Uh, woo?

[GoofyBoy]

>Apple has nothing to lose from this, but a great deal to gain.

Not sure what they have to gain from this.

Half an iPod with an interface which I'm not sure how its going to work with a cell phone, doesn't sound like a strong product.

And they have alot to lose. Its called watering down a brand-name.

>There's people out there who don't know, or think they want an mp3 player

So why would they buy it with a cell phone? Why not go for this nicer/cheaper/better cell phone?

Apple should do the next step 100% with their iPod. No half PDA or half cellphone combos. Full working PDA/"Son of Newton" and a full blown iPod with a cellphone.

Re:Uh, woo?

[dj245]

this will get them hooked not only on the idea, but on Apple's intuitive interface.

Please, there is no such "intuitive" and there is nothing intuitive about Apples products. If you are used to the products of Apple, then yes, the controls will seem familiar to you. But they will not be intuitive. You will not have the knowledge of button placement encoded into your DNA. It will merely be consistent with expected behavior.

If you were used to and familiar with another companies products, Apple's products would seem very strange and alien to you. They would not even be recognizable as a pattern at all, and certainly not an expected one.

Re:Uh, woo?

[mewphobia]

Apple should do the next step 100% with their iPod. No half PDA or half cellphone combos. Full working PDA/"Son of Newton" and a full blown iPod with a cellphone.

Apple isn't a stupid company. The PDA/cell phone market is already saturated. They would just be adding another competitor to an already saturated market. Creating a new cell phone isn't cheap. Apple doesn't like doing things in halves and the R&D cost for a new mobile phone would be huge.

This decision is effectively getting more clients for their music store for very little R&D cost. They are just leveraging their platform as THE solution for online/mobile music.

Re:Uh, woo?

[RedWizzard]

Not sure what they have to gain from this.

Obviously sales via iTunes. Possibly increased iPod sales.

Half an iPod with an interface which I'm not sure how its going to work with a cell phone, doesn't sound like a strong product.

Yes it does. I don't have an iPod, I don't know that I want one and I'm not paying that sort of money to find out. But I'll probably upgrade my phone in the next year or so and an mp3 capable phone is something I'd be interested in (certainly more than the camera phones that sell so well). One album's worth of songs is a good start. If I find I want more I'll buy an iPod, then I'll have two devices that use iTunes, and I can have music without carting both phone and iPod around if I don't want to.

And they have alot to lose. Its called watering down a brand-name.

It won't be an Apple branded product, it'll just carry a version of iTunes. Nothing to lose, unless Apple are paying Motorola. You're not in marketing are you?

So why would they buy it with a cell phone? Why not go for this nicer/cheaper/better cell phone?

Because this is a phone+mp3 player, not just a phone. It's one less device to carry round. Cost is certainly an issue, but I'd be shocked if this phone cost more than a similar phone plus an iPod.

Apple should do the next step 100% with their iPod. No half PDA or half cellphone combos. Full working PDA/"Son of Newton" and a full blown iPod with a cellphone.

Not happening yet. Phones and PDAs have radically different screen size and input requirements. They've been tried and don't converge that well. Your combination device is going to be expensive and large and that'll put people off. It's also a much larger gamble for Apple.

Re:Uh, woo?

[AtomicBomb]

Many people pointed out battery life is one important factor. I would say the UI is another one. It is pretty to get a combo mobile/mp3 player right. It is inconveient to include a separate headphone, but dumb to listen to music as if you are talking to someone.

If they can sort both things out, it will be a hot item on the market and I will want one too... Apple's involvement at least gives you some hope that they may get the UI right.

Re:Uh, woo?

[bedouin]

If you were used to and familiar with another companies products, Apple's products would seem very strange and alien to you. They would not even be recognizable as a pattern at all, and certainly not an expected one.

Dunno about that really. I wasn't a Mac user until 2002, but had OS X running to my likening within a few hours of taking the machine out of the box. I remember asking a friend a few questions, but 95% of it would be self-explanatory to anyone who's used a computer in the past 15 years.

On the other hand, I can remember encountering huge hiccups just migrating from one Linux distribution to another, or even upgrading Windows. There is definitely such a thing as unintuitive design; I've encountered it numerous times.

You will not have the knowledge of button placement encoded into your DNA

No, but there are certain UI designs that are more sensible to known human tendencies than others; Apple's done a great deal of research on it, and I think it shows when my dad (whose new to mp3s and computers) can figure out how to use iTunes within a couple minutes without me standing over his shoulders.

Please, there is no such "intuitive"

Sure there is. It's doing things like putting the power switch to say -- a monitor on its front, not the back. It's taking into consideration what most people expect, as opposed to what's technically the easiest thing to implement (which, in some cases -- may be a power switch on the back). Just an example. There are plenty more.

Re:Uh, woo?

[gl4ss]

*So why would they buy it with a cell phone? Why not go for this nicer/cheaper/better cell phone?*

the phone might very well be the cheaper one. storage for 12 tracks isn't exactly much anymore on a cellphone, i got a 256mb mmc in mine..

and it's not like moto has to bet their company on that, all the phonemakers have started selling semi-niche products too(they call it segmenting. and in reality most of them just change the plastics over the phone when making a new model for another segment).

now, should apple limit itunes store to just ipod when the alternative is that all the other industry goes on supporting something else? how the hell is moto making an itunes compatible phone apples business at all?

Re:Uh, woo?

[gujo-odori]

That's about what my thinking is. I don't have an MP3 player and I don't really want one (an Ogg player might tempt me a little more), but I will indeed be upgrading my cell phone in the next year (probably next 6 months) and getting rid of this piece of dog crap Nokia I got for free with the T-Mobile contract. T-Mobile is a decent carrier, but this phone sucks. Some of the buttons are starting to not work so well, and they've already replaced it once for that problem. This thing is less than a year old. The first one didn't even make it a month.

I'm not likely to buy an MP3 player in the next 6 months, probably not in the next year, either. But if a cell phone could play one of my favorite blues tunes when it rang, that could sway me to buy it.

Now, if they make voice control that really works - not "push some combination of keys first, then tell the phone "Call my brother" but just speak into the headset "call my brother" without even unlocking the keypad first - *and* it plays MP-3s, then they would have a phone that I'd camp outside the store in my sleeping bag for, to get one the first day they went on sale :-)

Re:Uh, woo?

[mister_tim]

And in this case, Apple won't be selling a 12 song device, but will be licensing their iTunes-compatible software to a company who will use it in a phone.

That said, it's still a fairly big move for Apple to start licensing their software to someone else since they are, traditionally, a hardware company. Not that this will hurt their market share in the way of iPods at all. However, it would likely mean more sales from the iTunes store, particularly if you can purchase and download directly from your phone.

I can just see it - people listening to a song on the radio or at a night-club, hear a song they like. They find out the title and log onto the iTunes store directly from wherever they are and grab the song for only 99c. The next step would be for the iTunes store to incorporate sound recognition, so you hold your phone up to a muic source, the online service tells you what the track is called and then prompts you to purchase it. Imagine the possibilities!

Of course, purchasing directly to the phone probably won't happen, because if it's anything like the iPod you won't be legally/theoretically able to copy the songs back onto your computer, in an attempt to curb illegal file sharing. Unless, of course, only DRM-enabled tracks could be transferred back. Interesting concept anyway...

Re:Uh, woo?

[Xugumad]

There's an Ogg player for some Symbian phones at :

http://symbianoggplay.sourceforge.net/

Re:Uh, woo?

[Mr_Silver]

here's people out there who don't know, or think they want an mp3 player -- this will get them hooked not only on the idea, but on Apple's intuitive interface.

Maybe within the iTunes application but as someone who has worked with Motorola phones for years, I can tell you that they have no concept of a decent or intuitive user interface on their handsets.

Re:Uh, woo?

[Epistax]

>> Not sure what they have to gain from this.
>Obviously sales via iTunes. Possibly increased iPod sales.

I am just pointing out that I was under the impression that they lose money for every song sold-- all of their profits have to be in hardware sold.

Re:Uh, woo?

[Grizzlysmit]

Apple has nothing to lose from this, but a great deal to gain. There's people out there who don't know, or think they want an mp3 player

Hmmmmm my pulse is good, my doctor says all my vitals are good, yep I reckon I can just keep on not owning an mp3 player, I'm happy with that.

Re:Uh, woo?

[SmittyTheBold]

Interestingly enough, I remember quite well an Apple monitor (about a 19" or so made in the mid-90s) with the power switch placed in the back. Near the middle of the back, to be precise.

My, how technology has advanced in the area of human interaction...

Re:Uh, woo?

[SmittyTheBold]

...because you were thinking like a UNIX user, instead of going with what makes basic sense. Apple presented the OS as an easy-to-use, powerful system with UNIX underneath it all. You chose to view it as a UNIX system with a candy coating, and all the rough edges that most other environments had.

Now, I'm not going to say that a specific method should be "intuitive" to you, but I will say that an item like the Terminal belongs where they put it in the UI, because that's where your average unindoctrinated user could logically reason it to be.

Re:Uh, woo?

[OS24Ever]

Funny, my wife who had a hard time with Windows and getting outlook to run took 30 seconds to figure out her iMac when I got it in 2002.

She had the iPod mini for 5 minutes and was completely enthralled. She'd burned half my spool of 100 CDs once she figured out the iTunes Music Store to the tune of about $130 worth of songs within four hours...

This is coming from someone who had trouble turning on her Windows PC and only used it for virus laden email.

So maybe you ought to rethink that statement? Maybe it should be 'people set in their ways don't find it intuitive' but defintitely not the people new to computers, you know, about 80% of the population of the planet.

Re:Uh, woo?

[mjpaci]

You had the base backwards, you ass.

Re:Uh, woo?

[dave420]

To me, OSX isn't intuitive at all. Not even the slightest. I guess that just shows that there really isn't such a thing as a globally-intuitive OS, just an OS that is intuitive to some of us.

Re:Uh, woo?

[Xugumad]

I'd be suprised if it cost much more than most MP3 playing phones, of which there are plenty at the moment (Nokia N-Gage, for example).

Re:Uh, woo?

[Xugumad]

Where did PDAs come into this? Yes, a new PDA would make a lot of people happy, but that's a whole different topic at this point.

As to iPod with cellphone - is that really a good idea? I'm a little suprised they're making a phone that can only hold about 12 songs, personally I'd have given the phone a MMC/SD card slot so you could add plenty more storage later, too. Not everyone wants to carry around their entire music collection, a 128mb flash card would be plenty for me

If Motorola made a phone with iTunes support and an MMC card slot, at the same price point as the N-Gage (which has AAC playback, but not the DRM), I'd buy it. Even with the flash card it would cost around half what an iPod does...

Re:Uh, woo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. They make a profit measured in pennies, to be sure, but they make a profit. It's been profitable for a few months now.

Re:Uh, woo?

[tgibbs]

Yeah, I had to use google to find the Terminal app in OS X. Wasn't that suppose to be a *nix.

The way I found it was like this: "I need the Terminal application. Let's look in the Applications folder where Apple puts all the applications." (clicked on "Applications" in a Finder window navigation bar). "Oops, don't see it. But I do see a Utilities folder in the Applications folder. Terminal is kind of a utility, so let's look in there. What do you know? There it is!"

Re:Uh, woo?

[GoofyBoy]

>Obviously sales via iTunes. Possibly increased iPod sales.

They don't make much off of iTunes. Its the iPod hardware they are making money off of, and they use iTunes to push it.

http://networks.silicon.com/mobile/0,39024665,39 12 2621,00.htm

> I'm not paying that sort of money ...
>an mp3 capable phone is something I'd be interested in

There are lots out there right now, and they might be cheaper if you are concerned about the money. So why would you buy a premium for something that you don't know if you want?

>It won't be an Apple branded product, it'll just carry a version of iTunes.

iTunes is an Apple brand. The entire "i-something" is a brand. iTunes is highly integrated with the iPod, something which is a big brand name for Apple.
By putting out a bad, define bad anyway you want, iTunes product you are weakening Apple's image of producing quality products. Apple's repuation is what they have to lose.

>I'd be shocked if this phone cost more than a similar phone plus an iPod.

I would be too because its not a full iPod you are getting.

>Phones and PDAs have radically different screen size and input requirements.

Ok, a misunderstanding here.

Apple added to their iPod some PDA functionality but read only. Half an PDA. Why not go all the way and release a full blown PDA with their iPod? Is anyone happy that they can't jot down notes/phone numbers in their iPod but only read what you had on your computer?
Apple added to a cell phone a small version of an iPod. Less than a full iPod. Why not go all the way?

Re:Uh, woo?

[mrm677]

Please, there is no such "intuitive" and there is nothing intuitive about Apples products. If you are used to the products of Apple, then yes, the controls will seem familiar to you. But they will not be intuitive. You will not have the knowledge of button placement encoded into your DNA. It will merely be consistent with expected behavior.

Go read the classic book titled "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". You will learn about the meaning of a concept called quality.

Re:Uh, woo?

[AmericanInKiev]

The PDA/cell phone market is already saturated

I would beg to differ. Sure there are some entrants - but there is not IMHO a great deal of variety in features or form factor.
My suffeciently portable Audiovox/Verizon camera phone has the guts to do navigation, mp3, voice recording - but it does none of that.
Models with features are too large.

mp3 is an obvious feature, but personal communications should be extended - to near network applications, such as for use in meetings, voice conferances, and local data exchange.

If I'm in an airport, why shouldn't my bluetooth phone display departure gates and delays?

If i'm in court - why not scroll the transcription in real time?

why not bus stops that beacon the bus schedule?

In short - there is a world of information wanting to be real-time and personal. Creating large electronic displays everywhere is expensive and obnoxious - whereas bluetooth (WLAN) beacons can be very cheap and environmentally friendly.

So I suggest the PDA/Phone market has a great distance to go before realizing its potential.

The weakness of products now is largely a problem of vision, and permitting the industry to define its own features - for some services - we need a technology czar who will define the service - open the protocal, and set standards - it could be that free market economies only do SOME things better - say industry - but other things - such as ubiquitous connectivity very poorly.

(Do I get extra points for rambling?)

AIK

Re:Uh, woo?

[JClark-IdleME]

Yeah, I had to use google to find the Terminal app in OS X. Wasn't that suppose to be a *nix.

I suppose looking in the Applications folder and clicking on the one called "Terminal" was too difficult?

Just a note, it's probably not a good idea to admit to doing somehting stupid as a way to make a point.

Re:Uh, woo?

[dwightk]

what the crap does "woo" mean?

Re:Uh, woo?

[SmittyTheBold]

I loved the PowerMac 6100-style case, where the power button was placed right near the floppy drive on the front of the case.

Occasionally, a person familiar with Windows would look to eject the disk and...

iPhone?

[gz76]

Didn't apple used to own the iPhone domain name? If so, let's see how much they pay to get it back!

Re:iPhone?

[agentmouthwash]

they still do.
Go to iphone.org

Re:iPhone?

[gz76]

Ah, it was .org! (The whole iphone domain was just a distant memory in my mind - I was beginning to wonder whether it was a real memory at all!) So what other domains does Apple own? I remember they owned some weird ones like giraffe.org or something like that. How many of those weird ones have become reality? With Apples product naming conventions (Safari, Tiger, etc.) maybe they've shown clear forward planning?

Re:iPhone?

[jvj24601]

Apple mobile phone? I want one!

Just take the contents of the iPod mini, throw in the circuitry of a mobile phone, and put it into a regular iPod case. Make the phone only work with headphones/headset. Now you've bundled a phone in the same space as an iPod.

The iPhonePod would support iSync, which mean that the calendar and address book are automatically sync'ed along with music when it's docked.

Subsequent models can possibly add better input-level functionality to this device for full PDA-level replacement, but I'd take this now. I have my Palm Pilot. I have my cell phone. And I want to get an iPod. But I want just one device.

I can only dream...

Re:iPhone?

[MikeXpop]

Steve Jobs has gone on record saying he won't enter the phone market or PDA market because he can't see any way to drastically improve it enough to completely pwn* the market.

*That's not a typo

Re:iPhone?

[HaloZero]

If Apple released a mobile phone or PDA unit, I would pick it up. Why? It's apple. It would, undoubtedly like the iPod, have seamless integration with my existing system(s) - PowerBook, lab equipment, etc.

For the record, I have friends who will atest to the fact that I thought of this back six months ago (and a few saved conversations here and there, I think). :-p

But seriously, if Apple were to cook up a Cell/PDA device, or even two seperate devices to fit those functions, I'd be very very interested in replacing my old Palm VII and my LG 250 series black flip phone (20$ Verizon workhorse).

Re:iPhone?

[Doc Ruby]

If my Treo 600, with its hifi stereo headset, DSP and CDMA 1xRTT (bursty ~100Kbps Net connection) had a 10GB (+ whizzy Bluetooth or WiFi) SD card, total HW convergence would be here. But PalmOS, superior in PDA to WinCE or Symbian, isn't good enough. Until something like Apple revolutionizes a mobile GUI paradigm the way they have with the iPod, it won't be anything but a small all-in-1 desktop. That's not personal enough for me, or for the millions of people around the world I will want to communicate with, using one. iPhone now!

Re:iPhone?

[Doc Ruby]

Jobs has also been on record saying things like "amazingly great" about a 68020 Mac and "wicked fast" about a Mac IIfx, as well as "goodbye forever, Apple". Times change, and Jobs changes with them. When he can, he changes them. An iPhone would be one of those times, if he times it right.

Re:iPhone?

[VikingBrad]

"But seriously, if Apple were to cook up a Cell/PDA device, or even two seperate devices to fit those functions, I'd be very very interested in replacing my old Palm VII and my LG 250 series black flip phone (20$ Verizon workhorse)."

You need to check out the Treo 600

Cheers
VikingBrad

12 songs? does it play pong also?

[nanojath]

12 songs? like an... album? what do they got in their, a hamster? it can't possibly be that hard to find somewhere to stuff a couple more MP3s in a cell phone. why so stingy?

Why doesn't Apple just make this the iPhone

[adzoox]

I don't know why this couldn't be the iPhone. Co-branding is in Apple's past.

Then again, one could read that this announcement came from Motorola's web site as an indication that it won't be the last deal with a phone manufacturer. Maybe the iPhone is just further down the road.

Apple has done this before.

The Quicktake 200 Camera was a Fuji DS7 camera - they were no different. The Apple Quicktake however used a better JPEG compression technology (read as quicktime) - that was especially developed for the Quicktake. Apple also created it's own system level camera reading and editting software.

I think this could represent a possible new hardware direction and unlike many have suggested I think this DOES possibly mean an Iphone from Apple could be in the works. Except this time, unlike the iPod that is Windows and Mac; the iPhone will be for Macs ONLY, the Moto version will be for everyone else.

Semi unrelated - a smaller footprint of iTunes would also be easier to emulate - possibly giving Linux a better shot at a quality iTunes solution.

Re:Why doesn't Apple just make this the iPhone

[PabloJones]

I believe that in the past, Jobs has stated that Apple wouldn't make a phone, as it was not in their best interest. Maybe they're testing the waters, to eventually come out with the rumored iPhone, but I sort of doubt this.

It's possible Apple is using this to promote the purchase of iPods. 12 songs isn't a hell of a lot, but these phones will most likely introduce even more people to iTMS, and when they are fed up with only having a handful songs on their phone, they'll spring for a new iPod.

Re:Why doesn't Apple just make this the iPhone

[dasmegabyte]

The Quicktake 200 Camera was a Fuji DS7 camera - they were no different. The Apple Quicktake however used a better JPEG compression technology

Alright. Any digital device is half hardware, and half software. If the hardware is the same, but the software different, these are two different devices. Saying "they're no different except the software" is like saying my car is no different from the GLX model except the leather seats, GPS and improved stereo.

I think most of the time, people on Slashdot like to discount the importance of software. The Canon Rebel debacle is a good example...here we have a camera whose major difference is stripped down software, and folks act like it's a crime. Why? If people are willing to pay more for the features on the pro model, and more people are willing to buy the camera with a dumbed down feature set, then the difference in software isn't trivial -- it's integral. I paid extra for my Mac because it had good software -- better software than anything offered by the Open Source community or Microsoft. Software which enabled me to do what I want easily and pleasantly.

Anyhow, Apple isn't releasing a cobranded cell phone because they want more cell phone companies to work hand in hand with iSync. If they tried to take marketshare from these companies, I doubt they'd be so fortunate.

Re:Why doesn't Apple just make this the iPhone

[pikayou]

I doubt we'll ever see an iPhone. The Economist did an analysis of this from Apple's perspective a while back. Market research indicated that people who use an iPod tend to immerse themselves in the music, and are almost never observed to be switching between their iPod and a cellular phone. According to the article, Apple concluded that adding cell phone or PDA functionality would therefore just be a distraction for users.

Re:Why doesn't Apple just make this the iPhone

[drinkypoo]

No, it's like saying your car is no different except for the ECU program. After all, your car is part software, too. Changing the ECU program makes a huge difference in performance, efficiency, and emissions.

However, in both cases, the software is the least significant part of the whole, because the hardware's capabilities provide the most severe limitations.

Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[Amiga Trombone]

...from their failure to license the Mac technology. This time around, their going to license their iPod technology to every Tom, Dick and Harry and establish it as an industry standard.

Good for them!

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[funkywhat2]

Except Real

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/26/ 1042257&tid=141&tid=100&tid=176&ti d=1

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[HanzoSpam]

Understandable enough. Apple earns revenue from licensing on this every time Motorola sells a cell phone. What do they earn when Real sells a song?

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[speleo]

Yeah, too bad that Firewire thing never amounted to anything...

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[tarth]

Well, if people can play them on their iPod, possibly quite a bit from larger iPod sales.

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[no reason to be here]

uhh, pretty sure that the parent was being sarcastic.

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[stubear]

Oddly enough some newer devices are foregoing firewire in lieu of USB 2.0. It's faster and they don't have to worry about the licensing from Apple. My Canon EOS Digital Rebel is one such example.

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[sirsnork]

Just for the record, while USB is theoretically faster, in the real world Firewire will destroy USB2 in data transfer tests

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[fsterman]

Or not since they won't license their FairPlay DRM tech for other software players. And it sucks. Good thing there are now work around like the earlier story with what Real did, and PlayFair.

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[CrackedButter]

Then add firewire 800 to that as well, which btw can carry an electrical charge of 45volts.

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[Have Blue]

And there's always 800Mbps Firewire, if you insist on comparing ideal performance. And Firewire was planned from the start to scale up to 1600Mbps, although that might even have been raised to an eventual target of 3200Mbps.

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

Hmmm... Apple's music strategy is about as closed as you can get.

Although the format is open (AAC), the DRM is closed (FairPlay), and the Apple Music System requires iTunes, an iPod (or now one other device), and the iTunes Music Store.

Contrast this to Microsoft's strategy. Although the format and DRM are closed (WMA), you can use any player to playback WMA-DRM files (so long as that player supports WMA-DRM, you can use your choice of music stores (Napster, Wal-Mart), and you can use your choice of players (Creative, Dell, iRiver, RCA, Rio, Samsung).

So, Microsoft is the one trying to establish a "standard", closed as it may be.

Remember, only Apple can sell you DRMd tracks that play in iTunes. And you can only access Apple's store with iTunes. And you can only transfer the tracks you purchased on Apple's store with iTunes to the iPod.

This is opening up one aspect of that. Now there are two things that play Apple DRMd tracks.

Don't you see Apple's strategy here? It's called platform lockin, and it's what Microsoft has done for years. They are leveraging their music store to sell their music player and to get people to install their player software. If you buy an iPod, you sure as hell aren't going to be buying your music from Napster or Wal-Mart.

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[Lars T.]

Only that this isn't iPod technology, it's a stripped down iTunes player.

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[lucas teh geek]

while big numbers are nice, they arent much use unless your using a RAID of RAIDS (I wonder if thats even possible)

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[Scudsucker]

It's faster

No, it never was. No single device can use 420 mbs/sec, and with mutiple devices Firewire is going to kill USB 2.0, as Firewire isn't dependant on the CPU or even a computer host. And thats with Firewire 400, 800 is available now.

they don't have to worry about the licensing from Apple

The people who complained about the licensing were just a bunch of whiney bitches, pure and simple. If coughing up a couple of nickels on a hundred dollar+ device breaks your bank, you have more serious problems on hand than paying for Firewire.

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[takev]

RAID is using fiberchannel in stead of firewire, as it is better suited for using raid systems.

But high numbers for firewire are interesting for video. Right now uncompressed standard TV is about 400mbit (I guess this is why the first firewire was this speed). So you can imagine what uncompressed HDTV would use.

Luckaly these days we have compressed HDTV that only uses 100mbit over firewire (canon DVCPRO HD cameras), so that we can use standard disks to record on.

But for special effects you will still need uncompressed HD.

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[danigiri]

Yay, and this even without taking into account Firewire 800...

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[dave420]

Yup - I saw that in action last week, with my 3g iPod. I was copying some stuff from it via USB2, and it was so freakin' slow. Copy ETA: 40 minutes. I unplugged, plugged the ipod into another computer via firewire, and copied the files over 100mpbs lan, in 7 minutes. USB2 is horribly slow, even if it can do 480mb/s on paper. Firewire not just can but DOES reach 400mb/s, every single time.

Re:Looks like Apple learned a lesson...

[mgs1000]

But can you use Microsoft's DRM with your choice of operating systems?

Wow.

[Eric_Cartman_South_P]

The multi-million dollar cell-phone ringer market just SHIT ITS PANTS.

*squirt* *plop*

If people can pop some songs onto their phone, why pay a dollar or two for a 10 second clip that sounds like it was recorded on an 8-trak?

hehe. Fuck'em.

Re:Wow.

[PabloJones]

Yeah, it's truly a shame those satellite phones never took off... just think, you could have Musak beamed down to it when you needed to put someone on hold, and then people could listen to an instrumental version of "Walkin' on Sunshine" while you used the can.

Hmmmm, well maybe that's not such a shame after all.

Re:Wow.

[Lord_Dweomer]

You bring up an interesting point. Now, a question. I am going to be purchasing a cell phone soon, and while I don't want to purchase songs to put on there, I have several mp3s of music I've created I'd like to put on there and use as ringtones. Can anybody recommend a phone that lets you put your own mp3s onto it?

Re:Wow.

[Fuzion]

I'm using the Motorola V220, it has a mini-usb connector, which you can connect directly to your computer, and download MP3s, images, etc. It only has 1.8MB or so of storage, so you have to re-encode your mp3s at a lower bitrate, and maybe crop it also, but overall it's not too bad. And it's got quad-band, a camera, and quite a few other features.

Re:Wow.

[scd]

Motorola v600. MP3's as ringtones, assignment on a per-phonebook-entry basis, if you want (also just as a global ringtone). Also camera and Bluetooth (easy way to get those MP3's to the phone).

I like mine.

Re:Wow.

[faggabeefee]

Some new Motorola phonesthat play MP3 ringtones will be coming out later this year . I may even switch carriers to get one. http://www.phonescoop.com/news/item.php?n=805 I've got some mp3s of the really nasty sounds (rabbits being slaughtered??) that the feds blasted at the Davidian compound during the Waco siege. I can't wait for that to accidently go off in a movie theater. I know. I'm sick, but that's not any worse than the ringtones in my current sprint phone. ;(

Re:Wow.

[guiscard]

The Nokia 6230. You can put up to a gig mmc card into it (it comes with 32mb, I use a 512mb) and you have a nice little mp3 player. The Nokia headphones are terrible but you can mod them and use your own. I use a pair of Sony e888s and the sound is fantastic. Plus when you get a phone call you can patch it trough to the headphones and use the mic on the wire, the little button will switch to the next song otherwise. Plus you can use mp3s both as ringtones and as your alarm clock.

Re:Wow.

[Mr_Silver]

The multi-million dollar cell-phone ringer market just SHIT ITS PANTS.

I know this was meant to be a joke but the cell phone ringtone market has been "shitting its pants" for years.

Realtones (that is proper samples of tracks) can only be purchased from the record labels. You can't get them from anywhere out without a licence (which, the record labels won't give). They're so paranoid about ripping that they won't supply content to providers unless the handsets conform to the DRM requirements that they (the music labels) dictate.

Handset doesn't support OMA Forward Locking? Doesn't have it's own propriatory DRM mechanism? Tough, the contract will state that the provider cannot sell to that handset. There is no negotiation because you cannot go and get the content from anywhere else.

Anyone who thinks it is the handset manufacturers and network operators who are the major drivers are wrong (although they are drivers). The content providers dictate the requirements, the network operators want to make money on that content so they drive the requirements and the handset manufacturers want purchases of their handsets so do their bidding.

And yes, the whole realtones vs full length tracks is causing problems. Why pay 4 quid a pop for a 30 second sample when iTunes gives you the whole thing for a quarter of the price?

The problem comes from a crossover of products. The ringtone market is now competing with the downloadable music market with vastly different price points.

Some operators are starting to dictate that handsets that can allow you to upload content via a cable cannot allow that content to be set as a ringtone in an attempt to protect the realtone revenue stream.

Re:Wow.

[WebGangsta]

If people can pop some songs onto their phone, why pay a dollar or two for a 10 second clip that sounds like it was recorded on an 8-trak?

Or... pop over to Xingtone and upload your own music clip to your phone to act as your ringer. No reason to download music from iTunes to your phone when you can throw together your own custom track.

Re:Wow.

[pianophile]

The Nokia 6230

Looks like the phone for me, but apparently it's not available in the US. Does anyone know what the equivalent model is on this side of the pond?

Re:Wow.

[Kumiorava]

I don't think it's available yet, but wait few months and it should be in stores near you. Naturally they enhance it a little compared to the european model that has happened with few other models. European model works in states as well, because it has the 1900 band. Better wait for its official release anyway. Good phone, I can recommend.

Re:Wow.

[The Lynxpro]

"The multi-million dollar cell-phone ringer market just SHIT ITS PANTS.

*squirt* *plop*"

So you are saying that the mobile phone market just SHARTED, eh? :)

I'll Wait ...

[angrist]

until I can get ALL the functionality of both devices in one package.

With only 12 songs, I'd still need my iPod for real music needs. Will the phones have headphone jacks? I sure don't want to listen to music from a single crappy phone speaker.

While this is a step in the right direction, it's not enough.
When I can fully replace my iPod, cell phone, and PDA with one device, i'll buy.

Re:I'll Wait ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Will we see a return to rotary dialing of phone numbers with an iPod-like scroll wheel interface?

Re:I'll Wait ...

[hunterx11]

I pulse-dial by hitting the receiver repeatedly, you insensitive clod!

Re:I'll Wait ...

[Barto]

If you keep waiting until the perfect "anything" comes along, you'll be waiting forever. With only 12 songs, this thing is obviously aimed at impulse buying of iTunes to be later transferred to your Mac/PC and iPod. Hold off for the second generation if you want or proclaim this device isn't for you but don't say you will hold off for the unattainable.

Barto

Re:I'll Wait ...

[Nikker]

Umm ... It might also look like this ...

You have phone that has 2.5G, approx 40-160Kbps connection with your cell phone provider and only the ability to physically controll "DozenS" of songs at any time.

Well I have a pretty good feeling your friendly provider would be happy at increasing revenue per, client to "Download" a song. iTunes keeps track of your purchace so you can listen to it at home too.. just download what you want to listen to on the go which @ 100Kbps would take about 4 1/2 mins to download your favourite "new" song purchasing more of apples product as well.

Of course the final niche would be Moto as since they have excellent recption (in most cases) and they know how to (and do) make phones they will be in demand by most if not all service providers (knocking nokia around a little)

That could work ....

12 Songs?

[MBCook]

I can understand the appeal of holding a few MP3s on your cellphone (to a degree), but only 12 songs? Now Apple considders a song to be a 128 kbps AAC file 4 minutes long (off the bottom of the iPod tech spec page). So that means that this thing must hold 48 minutes of audio, 48mb of storage (since 128 kbps is about a meg a minute).

First of all, the 48mb seems a little odd to me. I guess it's a 64mb device, with 16 used for the phone's OS/address book/ringtones/etc. But more importantly, why not make it hold 74 minutes of music. One full CD. I think that would be ideal for tiny storage. That would be 74mb, and if you include the 16 for the phone's other requirements you get 90 megs. That means that using 96 mb of memory on the phone, you could hold the OS and such, and 80 minutes of audio. Seems fantastic to me.

That said, I have three other comments. First, how 'bout bluetooth so you can use your Bluetooth headset to listen to music? Second, will the memory be expandable? That would be great. Third, can you use your files (MP3, AAC, etc) as ringtones? Those would be three nice things.

It will be interesting to see how all this pans out.

Re:12 Songs?

[Zemrec]

Hmm, and you know if you add in just a few more megs, you might be able to have 2 CDs in there (148MB)...And well, hey, that's getting pretty close to 256 MB, and in any case they don't make flash RAM in anything but powers of 2...so there's your 256 MB...Gee, wouldn't it be great if you could also fit your photo library on there and show everyone you walk by how cute your kitty is? I'd say that should be 512 MB...Wow, thats awfully close to 1 GB, heck, yeah let's make it an even gig. Then again 4 GB is even better so...

Re:12 Songs?

[Razzak]

Ehhh... my cell phone can barely talk for 2+ hours. If I listened to more than 45 minutes of music on one it wouldn't be able to be a cell anymore.

Re:12 Songs?

[ldspartan]

the energy intensive part of a cell call is transmitting RF, not the flirking audio amp.

--
lds

Re:12 Songs?

[Doppler00]

I hope the phone has a SD/MMC slot in it. 256MB of memory can be found for less than $50 now. You should at least be able to store a couple or more CD's worth of music on the phone.

Re:12 Songs?

[kryptKnight]

The poster mistyped, the article said dozens of songs, not a dozen.

Re:12 Songs?

[david_reese]

I hope the phone has a SD/MMC slot in it. 256MB of memory can be found for less than $50 now. You should at least be able to store a couple or more CD's worth of music on the phone.

I'm guessing Apple doesn't want this as it would compete with their other product offerings (iPod Mini, etc). Expandability *should* exist in any decently powered platform, but sigh... product marketing always has the last say over engineering :-(

Press Release from Motorola

[Saxton]

Press Release from Motorola

Yes, I understand that might be considered karma whoring, but at least it's informative. Enjoy.

-s4xton

Re:Press Release from Motorola

[DMUTPeregrine]

That's not karma whoring by any means. Karma whoring is mostly just posting obvious information in an attempt to get modded up. You were posting non obvious information (IE, not mirroring the article text or some such.) Your information came from seperate reasearch, and is thus not karma whoring.

On hold

[moberry]

Now how freakin' cool would it be, when you put a freind on hold to take another call, poop, etc. It would play the music (in a somewhat reduced qaulity) like companies do when they put you on hold. just remember to properly liscense it.

Re:On hold

[gotpaint32]

Im on a trip in south korea, and ive noticed something similar, I think it is called ringo, basically the subscriber chooses tracks they want to be played instead of a standard ring tone, so when someone calls you, you get whatever hideous music the subscriber wants you to hear.

Re:On hold

[eingram]

Very cool. Next, record yourself talking, convert to MP3, and set that as the "hold music."

"Okay, I'm back. Hah! Just kidding, just a recording. You're still on--hey, sorry about that, anyway as we were sayin--HAH! Tricked you again! You're on hold! You! Are! On! Hold! You're on hold! Hold! Hold! Lalala! You'--"

Re:On hold

[The Lynxpro]

"Now how freakin' cool would it be, when you put a freind on hold to take another call, poop, etc. It would play the music (in a somewhat reduced qaulity) like companies do when they put you on hold. just remember to properly liscense it."

You put the person on hold to TCOB? (take care of *business*). You obviously are not familiar with one of my friends named Jared...

www.theredmonkey.com

Big picture integration

[Thinkit4]

Of course we'll get iPod-phones someday. But I'm still waiting to be uploaded to a computer. All your data will be a thought away, not a click away. I've already started on the transhuman route (check my sig).

12 Songs?

[serial_crusher]

Call me (no pun intended) when it has a 40GB hard drive.

iPhone?

[Doc Ruby]

The hell with an iTunes Moto phone - I want an Apple mobile phone. It's time for Apple to shake up the mobile device market again with a leap to something that competes with the Treo 600, with fancy HW and a UI so simple it's legal to use while driving. C'mon, Jobs - you've reinvented a better Walkman, now let's see you reinvent a better PC on top of that!

if they allow too many

[Anonymous Coward]

songs on the phones, what's the point in buying an iPod?

Quite sensible really, if they want to continue with the iPod, which I'm sure they do.

Steve working with Motorola?!?

[Sebby]

Hell must have fozen over, right after it broke loose!

Well if we're lucky, the phones will be just about able to play songs encoded at 8Kbps speed. Of course when doing this the phones will be running hot as hell and you won't be able to hold or carry one... but don't worry, the next generation of phones will be able to play 9Kbps songs and will only be about 20 degrees hotter than the current ones when playing songs.

And the color is...

[christ0pher]

So...do you suppose the phone will be available in colors other than white?

Not that exciting

[localekko]

The Nokia 6230 (and the forthcoming 6260) are somewhat more impressive, using interchangeable MMCs to store up to and above 128Mb of data. And I don't think iTunes compatibility is a great reason to endure such lousy storage capacity.

12 Songs Absurd

[Anonymous Coward]

I admit I didn't RTFA and only the /. byline, but only 12 songs?

There are sell-fones that have long been in existance with built-in MP3, WMA, and WAV players that accept high-capcity removable memory-stick storage (128mb+). Like the Sony-Ericsson P800 & P900. These phones are GPRS and Bluetooth enabled, natch (and yes, that's enough bandwidth to transfer some content). Undoubtedly there are a few that take CF as well.

If 12 songs is the most they're going to offer you, when it's abundantly clear that's lightyears off of the current technical ceiling, then someone's trying to screw us (surprise).

Re:But iTunes is not mp3 ?

[wbd]

The iTunes MUSIC STORE uses AAC encoded music (an open standard) with Apple's proprietary FairPlay DRM.

The iTunes APPLICATION, which is usuable with our without the iTunes Music Store, supports MP3, AAC, AAC+Fairplay, WAV, Audible audiobooks, Apple Lossless Compression (ALC), possibly more I can't remember. It can rip to MP3, AAC, or ALC.

huh?

[commodoresloat]

somewhat reduced quality? Have you listened to the crap they play when they put you on hold? Pretty much anything in my music collection is going to be better quality than the cheesy muzak they normally put on there.....

Re:huh?

[usr122122121]

somewhat reduced quality? Have you listened to the crap they play when they put you on hold? Pretty much anything in my music collection is going to be better quality than the cheesy muzak they normally put on there.....

Watch it, buster :-)

I was jamming to Dave Brubeck's album Time Out when I was on Apple's Customer Service line the other day.

I admit it felt a bit geeky to actually have "hold music" in my music library :-p

Why Motorola?

[Dr. Mu]

They're not exactly the hottest name in cellphones right now.

Re:Why Motorola?

[ev1lcanuck]

Having owned a Nokia 3390, Motorola V66, and Samsung E105 and X105 within the past two years the Motorola was by far the best. The Nokia was terribly annoying, kept freezing and crashing, and was so poorly made it practically fell apart. The Samsungs are both just really, really frustrating to use. They're slow and the cutsey wutsey menus drive me nuts. I do, however, love the Motorola V66 and intend to use it until the day it dies. Then I'll replace it with another Motorola.

Apple has a pretty good reputation of making a solid, easy-to-use, pretty looking product that works exactly like it should when you need it to. Out of all the cell phone manufacturers I'd say Motorola most closely fits this description.

Drain on batteries...

[TheOtherAgentM]

I just see another device that doesn't need to be combined with a phone. I just want my phone to make calls and maybe sync contacts with my computer. Phone battery life barely lasts long enough for some days, even without all the fancy gadgets. Putting two good things together doesn't always make a better product. It's like the one Simpsons where Homer is eating out of a can and it says, "Gum and Nuts: Together at Last."

Battery life???

[droopus]

Um, my phone barely makes it through the day on its extended life battery. How the heck is it going to last all day if I use it as my music source as well?

I might be alone, but I really prefer a Sidekick (or Blackberry, I spose...) for my net, email and PDA functions and my cell for phone calls and little else. Other than the occasional game of Jeopardy, I rarely use my cell for much besides a mobile phone.

Re:Battery life???

[your_mother_sews_soc]

Right, battery life was what made me choose a Nokia 6820 over a Moto phone. I was looking for a bluetooth enabled phone two weeks ago to integrate with my Powerbook and Palm Tungsten T3, and Nokia had the whole package. So when I read the headlines on the bottom of the TV this morning I wished it was Nokia. Damn.

Motorola makes sense because of their long standing partnership with Apple. But their phones need a portable power plant. Still, it's good news for Apple shareholders.

yes yes yes!!

[commodoresloat]

Running NewtonOS no doubt. :)

OK, fine, running PalmOS. But please do it!! Of course, we all know Apple won't, because Jobs doesn't think Apple can rule the phone/pda market. The thing is, we all know that if Apple spent twenty minutes thinking about it, they could come up with a device that blows away what's out there. Treos are cool, but such things try to do too much and do it all in a mediocre manner. Apple could easily combine the simplicity of their interfaces with the tools required.

Here's one message I wish cell phone manufacturers would get .... there is no necessary reason a cell phone must look like a phone. It doesn't have to be cradled in my neck in a way that distracts me from driving AND screws up my spine. Make a headset essential and build a device that has a more practical shape for what it does. Then build different shaped devices for different needs (and then maybe I can finally get my dream emate-2)!

Re:yes yes yes!!

[drinkypoo]

The thing is, we all know that if Apple spent twenty minutes thinking about it, they could come up with a device that blows away what's out there.

Right, just the same way that the newton blew away the other PDAs, and the way that the 68k mac blew away the PC. In other words, not at all. Apple is good at one thing, making nice devices for a narrow range of tasks that cost a lot of money. You simply cannot rule a market of commoditized devices with a model like that. People do seem to love the iPod but people are still buying all manner of other mp3 players. Eventually someone will bring out something nicer and cheaper than the iPod, it's simply the way the world works...

And it might even have an externally-accessible battery :)

Re:12 songs? does it play pong also?

[Graff]

12 songs? like an... album? what do they got in their, a hamster? it can't possibly be that hard to find somewhere to stuff a couple more MP3s in a cell phone. why so stingy?

The poster of the story got it a bit wrong. It's not a dozen songs, it is dozenS of songs. So think more like a couple of albums worth, not one album worth of songs.

Remember that most songs will probably be full 128 kbit iTunes Music Store AAC files. Judging from the songs I've bought from the iTMS each song will take up around 3.5 MB so a dozen will take 42 MB. That adds up pretty quick. You could fit about 36 songs onto a 128 MB flash card, which sounds reasonable for a flash-based cell phone/MP3 player.

Can you download over the phone?

[harlows_monkeys]

A 12-song player is not all that exciting. However, if they make it so you can download songs to it over the phone, then it becomes a lot more interesting. Keep your collection on your home computer with your always-on broadband connection, and grab songs 12 at a time for playback on the phone.

Re:Can you download over the phone?

[berniecase]

3G data speeds would allow for near-streaming of tracks. That'd be cool. Imagine if it had Internet radio support.

The real question?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can I rip a cell phone conversation to MP3?

Everyone is complaining about 12 songs already

[chia_monkey]

It's funny to see so many people griping about the 12 song capacity of the phone. Lets not forget all the cries of "why the hell would anyone want to buy an iPod when you can get something so much cheaper?" Then the iPod Mini came out and instead of griping about it competing against the product from another company, they cried "but who will buy this? Why not spend $50 more and get a full size iPod that holds so much more music?"

C'mon people. Have faith in Apple. They seem to know what they're doing (finally...we'll just forget about the Cube...). When your son or daughter (who probably helped put the iPod Mini on the 25 year (slight exaggeration) waiting list is at the wireless store comparing phones, are they going to be looking at the phones that have no ring-tone options, crappy ring-tone options, or the cool new phone that plays music from iTunes (considering they probably already own an iPod and iPod Mini).

I see a lot of "12 song only" complaints but I bet three months after release, this will be a wildly popular phone.

Re:Everyone is complaining about 12 songs already

[overunderunderdone]

we'll just forget about the Cube

The cube was a definite miss. Sadly it could have been a big hit, it was a great idea, a great machine. They just got the price point wrong (WAY wrong). It was a headless iMac and should have been priced that way, if it had been it would have been a huge hit.

Bluetooth Remote

[Anonymous Coward]

The real iPhone will be when Apple makes an official bluetooth remote. I've got a Sony Ericsson T610 and it's amazingly useful for controlling VLC and iTunes from my couch, but current cell phones weren't meant to be used like this. If Apple designed a bluetooth phone with nicely laid out iTunes/DVD remote features, I'd be first in line to buy one.

No - Too simple - Not 12 Songs

[LuckyLimey]

Why so miopic - How about a subscription service to 12 news sources, International, Local, sports, finance etc. that updates daily/hourly to the phone..., something analogous to a .mac account on iTunes. Text alerts on Steroids. Everyone is screwing around trying to build digital newsprint, ebooks etc... I love getting my books etc. on CD etc. Once more... a paradigm shift - text messaging/alerts - obsolete - just like that:)

Who can out cynic the cynics?!

[berniecase]

Welcome to Slashdot, Cynical haven.

Remember, Slashdotters panned the iPod when it was introduced. They're doing exactly the same thing here. I really get a kick out of reading some of these braindead posts.

Battery life!
OGG!
What? Only 12 songs?!
It's not a Newton!
Apple is dying!
I won't buy it until it has X feature
AAC sucks, X format r0x0rs yo!


Okay okay, so some people are posting positive comments, but they seem to get lost in the pointless hand waving from the haters. Thanks everybody - In a years time, this phone will be a success and you'll STILL be bitching about not having OGG support on X device.

Re:Who can out cynic the cynics?!

[GoofyBoy]

>In a years time, this phone will be a success

Or in a years time, people will be saying how it was "ahead of its time" or "discontinued but still better than 99% of comparible product out there".

And so the cycle begins.

Who cares?

[macosxaddict]

What exactly are people supposed to use this for? 12 songs is 48 minutes. You're not going to connect it to your car and listen to it on the way to work. You're not going to hold the phone up to your ear for minutes at a time just so you can listen to some nice music (that is the same every time). It's way overkill for fancy ring tones. The speaker sucks, compared to the iPod earphones; it's designed for phone quality, not CD quality. Ever been confused whether you were listening to hold music on the phone or your car stereo? Me neither.

Re:Who cares?

[macosxaddict]

Sure, it'll have a headphone jack. It might even have a Bluetooth connection to the car or whatever is nearby. But you really want to deal with the hassle of changing the songs every time you come home? Also, headphones are yet another thing you're supposed to carry around. Don't forget your phone charger. Two of them, if you have a car charger (yeah, I know, you leave it in the car, but it's another gizmo you have to deal with).

The "New" Motorola

[stox]

Two years ago, Chris Galvin was at the healm of Motorola, now it is Ed Zander. To say that the difference is night and day would still be an understatement. Ed Zander actually works for a living. The market knows this, and so does Apple.

Please license the Newton OS as well

[QnA]

Motorola should cooperate with Apple, by licensing the Newton OS and use it as the OS of it's cellphones. It is definately a win-win situation. From my exp(I am a programmer on mobile platform), Motorola's OS is one of the most buggy OS while comparing to Nokia and SE. By using Newton OS, it should be able to migrate to a much stable platform. On the other hand, Apple didn't break their promise(no more PDA). And lastly, WE HAVE OUR NEWTON BACK FINALLY!!!!

Wrong Company Bub!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

The PowerPC or semiconductor division of Motorola has been spun-off. It's now Freescale Semiconductor, a freely operating entity. Motorola without the semiconductor division is planning this new cellphone/i-pod.

Fyi. Working at Motorola sucks. Low pay, lower benefits every minute. Culture and morale is near the toilet... Great quarter everyone! Now please read the reduced severance plan as it's going to hurt as I stick it to you!

Screw That!

[crawdad62]

Why don't you guys (Apple and Motorola) get your act together and allow me to sync my Address Book with my Moto V400?

"What's his number again? I dunno but listen to that great Britney mix."

Re:Screw That!

[Miphnik]

Your wish may about to granted.

The Cube rocked...

[droopus]

(finally...we'll just forget about the Cube...)

I bought a Cube (500mhz) the day they came out (waited five months, but oh well.)

It still sits on my wife's desk, working faithfully and silently, handling her little business and the house bills, along with her mail, browsing and Office stuff. It's 802.11b, and has never had a touch of trouble.

It still gets compliments and "what the heck is that?" comments, and still will get $550-$600 on ebay.

Nothing wrong with the Cube at all...people just wanted a better, more flexible desktop, satisfied with the G5 I'm typing on.

Cubes rocked!

Battery life a problem with a music player/phone?

[rogerborn]

Using a phone to play music, especially if its the great AAC quality of the iPod means that the battery life will be short.

Perhaps they meant to say it will play, not 12 songs, but 12 minutes....

BTW, will the Motorola play the music as well as the iPod? The iPod's stereo circuitry is most excellent, which is why people love it so much (aside from the cool design).

Roger Born
writing.borngraphics.com

Apple Profit From All Firewire Sales?

[idonotexist]

Curious... I've never heard of them receiving a royalty.

Re:Apple Profit From All Firewire Sales?

[MacJedi]

twenty-five cents.

Re:Apple Profit From All Firewire Sales?

[overunderunderdone]

There was a big stink a few years back over Apple's licensing fees. When it first developed the tech it sold an unlimited royalty free license for $7,500 later as it gained traction they switched to $1.00 per port (for companies that hadn't taken advantage of the flat fee) - the sh*t hit the fan and there was much griping over charging a licensing fee for an open IEEE standard (despite that being allowed by the IEEE). Apple then had some licensing fee on just using the trademark "FireWire" but when everyone just started using "IEEE 1394" or "iLink" (sony's marketspeak for it) Apple backed down on that too. So now both the tech itself and the trademark are free licenses from Apple. There is some kind of patent pool between all the companies that had patents used for IEEE 1394 but I'm not sure if it's just patent cross-licensing or if there is some kind of licensing fee for Firewire that Apple may get some (significantly less than $1.00/port) slice of.

Surprising

[corian]

After the way Apple treated Motorola during their time selling StarMax Mac clones, I'm much suprised that anyone at Motorola would even consider collaborating with Apple on a product again.

What will this Motorola look like?

[rogerborn]

Perhaps it will look like the new Motorola V3 just introduced?

http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/motorola-v3-razo r- reviewed-018264.php

Very thin and cool. This could be an Apple iPod phone, the way it looks, plus its got a PDA color screen.

Roger Born
writing.borngraphics.com

if only motorola make a phone that meets my needs

[aardwolf204]

MP3 player with iTunes support

Browser that supports WAP, HTML, Frames, Flash, Shockwave, Tabbed Browsing, and thumb-guestures

8 MegaPixel camera with 6x optical zoom that takes SLR lenses

Calander and contacts that syncs with microsoft exchange

2.2" display with 65K colors and 480x640 resolution

802.11g and bluetooth (that works) with kismet

12 cell LiIon battery with 14 day standby and 6 hour talk time

media player capable of playing MOV, MPG2,4, AVI (divx and xvid), RM, DVD,

HDTV that syncs with your tivo, direct-tv, XP-MCE, or mythPC (sorry MyHTPC and freevo, not enough room in ROM)

Direct TV connection with 400 channels

Cheap custom ringtones that dont suck (no more paying 99 cents for a 50 cent ringtone)

Vibrate, Pulsate, Ultra-Vibrate, and Orgasmobrate (for her pleasure)

authentic TOS trek sound for when the clam shell flips open

Walkie-Talkie function that be used without speakphone

SDIO card for memory expansion

4G 1MB/s internet connection

RSS feeds on your "desktop"

9 button thats not pre-programmed to 911

full QWERTY thumbboard with touchpad

VNC, TightVNC, and Terminal Services

Vi, Emacs, Notepad, and that thing macs use

Powerpoint support with included VGA dongle for presentations

SMS, MMS, EMS, and PMS

synchronization support for pop3, imap4, and active-sync

drivers for linux (source included)

dual boot mode with windows CE and linux (2.7)

included sample cowboy neal ringtones

j2me, perl, and C# support

graphing calculator

Included USB cable makes phone act as USB flash drive on any PC (w2k+)

GPS with included geocaches

ability to turn reciever into promiscuious mode with ethercap

SSH (1,2) and Telnet clients that work!

1GHz Transmeta processor

Via Eden 600 MHz backup processor

dual blue cold cathodes with case window

Support for CD-R / RW, DVD-R-RW+R+RW-RAM, MMC, SD, CF, PCMCIA, and 5.25" (double density)

Did I miss anything...

Oh yeah, Phone. Maybe next revision, until then you can hook it up to your vonage box.

Ok, so I was only joking on a few of those things, but seriously some of these features need to be considered. I want an open platform phone that allows me to put RSS feeds on my "desktop" and can SSH and VNC into boxen (sp?)

A matter of size..

[alphakappa]

Anyone notice that the iPod mini is about the same size as a cellphone.. and if it can store 4Gb of music and smaller hard drives available/round the corner, there's no reason why we won't have a phone that can stores gigs of music. (and remember, the phone circuitry +RF is not really *that* space consuming.)

Re:A matter of size..

[foidulus]

Ow! My battery! Seriously, battery life would royally suck on something like that. The iPod battery is pretty good, but by the time you add in the cell phone, a color screen etc, it's going to drain the battery pretty fast...

This shouldn't be surprising...

[Chief Typist]

Apple's in the entertainment business now -- extending the reach of your service/content is what it's all about. First BMW, now Motorola -- who's next?

It also makes me think that they're just testing the waters with this -- 12 songs is nothing. I'm thinking that data services (GPRS, etc.) fit in better with their business model -- especially with regard to syncing data. Also, 12 songs isn't a limitation if you have the data channel available to replace them at will -- a GPRS connection to your iDisk is all it would take.

It's also kind of funny that this was posted today...

-ch

iTMS Mobile

[Frogbeater]

Why does no one mention the possibility that this implies the ability to download songs from the iTMS directly to the phone.

A cell phone has the internet connection that the iPod lacks. The two can not be compared. Small capacity, yes, but I can download a song I want to hear RIGHT NOW.

Having the iTMS in my pocket is a groundbreaking concept. Considering the number of songs they've sold from PCs, imagine how many songs they would sell if the store was in your pocket all the time!

Re:iTMS Mobile

[zboy]

Especially when iTMS songs are cheaper than those $1.99 ringtone downloads...

Re:iTMS Mobile

[dfj225]

Even though it doesn't look like this generation of phones will have this ability, I think it is something that Apple should look into. I know that companies make devices that will tell you what song is on the radio, when given either a sample or what station you are listening to. I think this idea taken to the next level would be to have iTMS on your phone, maybe not to listen to all the time but for spontaneous purchases, like when you hear a good song on the radio or a friend tells you about something you should listen to. In either case, I usually never write it down and completely forget about it by the time I get home.

Re:iTMS Mobile

[jmcneill]

I don't know about you, but I pay about $20 CDN/month for 1.5MB of GPRS transfers. That's going to be quite the costly 4MB song from iTMS just so I can hear it 'RIGHT NOW'.

Although I agree, I often find myself in situations where I would like to hear a song and I don't have access to anything other than my iPod or cell phone. If the wireless providers offered cheaper data plans it could be definitely feasable.

Defenisve action

[Johnny Mnemonic]

There were some rumors that Apple would sue Motorola for breach of contract once Apple fully migrated to the IBM processor; I don't think that's happened 100% yet, but Apple's pretty close. The suit would've been based on the grounds that Moto didn't give Apple the year warning they were required to that they were going to end their desktop PPC chip, which necessitated Apple scrambling to find a replacement--originally, IBM didn't have a lot of interest in supplying Apple, and only bolted on the AltiVec co-processor at a later date.

I strongly suspect that this relationship is related to terms to arise out of an out of court settlement between Moto and Apple--it's clearly no longer in Apple's interest to sue Moto, so this was worth something to Moto (if the suit had any merit; but it sounded like it may well have.)

I don't know if it's better for Apple or for Moto to play iTMS music on Moto phones; but it does mean that QT is there instead of WMA, which is indeed worth something to Apple. My hunch is that Apple was awarded this privilege for free, and in return they'd drop the suit.

Re:Defenisve action

[dasmegabyte]

Microsoft is to OSS as Evian is to tap water.

I beg to differ. Microsoft is to OSS as Coca-cola is to tap water. When you're really thirsty, sometimes you don't want the sugar or the carbonation.

Incidentally, Apple is a really cheap wine. Bully Hill. Drink a little, and you want more. Drink too much and you're zonked out of your gourd.

Re:Defenisve action

[drinkypoo]

I think what he's saying is that microsoft is a corrupted version of OSS, what with their reputed consumption of open source code. Evian, however, is a purer form of tap water. Maybe the idea is because Evian is less like tap water than tap water? Anyway it doesn't make any fucking sense any way you look at it, so why are we going offtopic like this?

This is a good thing

[eadint]

If apple can successfully license the aac compression algorithm that they stand to make allot of money. it would also become a more viable alternative to MS audio compression. with the proceeds from licensing aac, there may be a little bit of a drop in ipod sales but most people buy ipod's based on aesthetics and the design. but in the end apples greatest failing is a business model partially based on fear. by locking down the market on hardware they loose the revenue from software licensing. with proper marketing aac and quicktime compression can become a consumer device standard.

Been Done long ago

[DrSbaitso]

Samsung came out with an MP3 phone with 64 megs of storage (in the days when 128mb was considered large and 256mb unheard of) many years ago for Sprint, the Uproar. It never seemed to sell well even though it got pretty good reviews. The battery life was decent; 10 hours of playtime off a full charge, and the ring came over the headphones.

Here's a link.

Re:Been Done long ago

[Professor Chaos]

I still own my uproar. great little mp3 phone, wish theyd come out with something new but for some idiotic reason telus isnt coming out with any more. apparently they sold like hotcakes when it was first released (at least by telus in canada) and they ran out and decided not to continue with them. theyre only dual mode whereas most of the phones telus sells these days are tri-mode phones. still, samsung made a solid little phone. the headset/remote combination is pretty nicely done too. id say more nice things about it but i dont want everyone to realise you can get a combo phone/mp3 player off ebay every once in a while for fairly decent prices. ive even got a couple backup batteries for this thing and an external charger that wouldve originally cost 100 bucks. still, parts can be hard to find now that nobody makes these things anymore. 64 megs is ok but would be nice if someone came out with a phone with at least 256MB. the best thing about the uproar though is that it has support in linux and MacOS X, but apparently no longer on windows. (the uproar is basically a fused cell phone with a yepp mp3 player, so the program i use for linux, called sulu (samsung uproar linux utility) apparently works with both. had some usb issues with early 2.6 kernels, but seems to work with the latest (except 2.6.8, which hangs on my motherboards chipset at boot.. but thats a whole other can of worms.. mga dri seems broken too.. oh well itl stable out eventually) you know, there are other phones out there that are combo mp3 players. the only problem is they do too many things. the uproar is basically a phone, with a clock, and it plays mp3's for about 10 hours and is rechargable. thats more than enough for me.

Ipod

[dotslasher_sri]

We can now play ipod songs on BMW car stereo. It would be cool if they extend this to all cars. Something like streaming songs using bluetooth..so that bluetooth enabled car stereos could play it.. or has it been done ??

Not just 12 songs

[Anonymous Coward]

Seeing as the E398 Motorola phone already supports removable flash card (seen ones that can hold 96 mb at least), I doubt that the proposed phone w/iTunes support will be limited to only 12 songs. At the standard 5 mb a song this is 20 songs. And in a year I'm sure that the flash-industry will figure out a way to cram more memory into the size-format.

iTMS on the Go

[Anonymous Coward]

The really neat thing would be a phone with iTMS integration so you could buy songs on the go. This would alos help a lot with platform independence. If you don't have Windows or Mac OS X (the current iTunes platforms) then you can have a cellular phone that gives you access to iTMS.

Poor Windows users

[gwoodrow]

At the rate that Apple is expanding their grip on the digital music scene, I'm starting to feel sorry for all those unfortunate Windows users with protected WMV files.

Seriously though - as proprietary access grows, people with little knowledge of such things are going to be severely confused and angry about it. Even though I'm an Apple fanatic, right about now is when even I start dedicating some of my big-corporation-distrust (usually reserved for Microsoft) towards Apple.

um...better PC?

[MacFury]

now let's see you reinvent a better PC on top of that!

You mean like...the macintosh? :-)

Re:um...better PC?

[Doc Ruby]

And the NeXT - a better Mac. Do it again, Steve!

Pocket Tunes

[VikingBrad]

And don't mention Pocket Tunes which has been doing this for ages on the Treo smartphone

Cheers
VikingBrad

Why Motorola? Because of this:

[nzgeek]

The Motorola V3.
Sex on wheels (or at least whatever the same saying is for a phone... Sex off wires!?)

Seriously, the V3 is such a stylee phone (check out that Trek-like etched keypad) - Apple probably wished they'd designed it themselves.

For the phone geeks: Titanium casing; Bluetooth; camera; 262,000 color QVGA (240x320) LCD. Drool!

Re:if only motorola make a phone that meets my nee

[dcam]

OK How about this for phone requirements:

1. simple phone interface
2. simple SMS messaging interface
3. Bluetooth
4. Small, preferably flip phone
5. Able to sync all phone data with a PC (SMS messages, phone book, call register)

Those are my phone requirements. Can you find a phone on the market that does those? Simple stuff, but no phone that I am aware of can do them.

I currently have a Motorolla T720. It is a pretty poor phone. For each action I want to perform there seem to be around 2 more button presses than is neccessary. You can sync phone numbers with your PC, but nothing else and the options are pretty crippled. Lastly it is sloooooow.

I could not care less about cameras, Java support (although that is rather cool, I have no need), WAP or $Next_Gen_Feature. Just give me a phone that does a decent job as a phone.

Now thats what i call.....

[beakburke]

A market of ONE.

PowerPC problems

[Trillan]

Motorola is a giant company with compartmentalized divisions. I wouldn't be surprised if the cellular division doesn't even know the semiconductor division was involved with the PowerPC processor.

Missing it...

[LakeSolon]

I don't see this as a wannabe Mp3 player. People are willing to pay more than 99c for a 20 second midi clip for their ringtones. I for example paid I think 1.50 for "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" on my Sidekick. There's a little "catalog" function in the sidekick for buying software (the SSH Client, etc) and ringtones.

Wouldn't it be so much cooler if it instead had an interface to the iTMS? Now it's less expensive, and you get the whole song in 128kbps AAC for your ringtone.

~Lake

Maybe because the iPhone exists

[weston]

Behold, the Cidco iPhone... circa 1998 technology... a phone with a web browser and email client included.

PowerPoint?

[grouchomarxist]

Fergit that! Keynote, bud!

Re:if only motorola make a phone that meets my nee

[Duncan3]

Seriously, if anyone can recommend a really good cell PHONE that would be kinda useful.

Seems noone makes phones anymore, just PDA's with keys too small to use and a crappy phone in it.

How about this for starters
#1 Keys (only 12 please) I can actually dial with.
#2 Talk time ~6 hours becasue some days just never end
#3 Reception all over the city, not just within a mile of downtown.

Oh, and small is not a "feature" it's a defect, see #2.

Re:if only motorola make a phone that meets my nee

[DMUTPeregrine]

Try a laptop. Or a tablet pc (if you can find a good one.) If it has bluetooth, tape a bluetooth cell phone to the back. Problem solved.

Why get excited about AAC?

[Andy_R]

Cell phones already do mp3s, what's new that's new is the iTunes compatibility, which presumably means aac playback is the 'innovation' here.

My new Sony Ericsson K700i has 40mb of available ram (enough for 12 x 3 minute pop songs in marketingspeak), if they were not trying to rip me off for more than the phone cost for a usb-to-dumb-proprietary-connector cable I'd have an equivalent system here.

Re:Why get excited about AAC?

[robbieduncan]

Why not use Bluetooth. Even if your machine does not have Bluetooth you can add it for around £20 (or probably $20) via a small USB dongle.

Re:Why get excited about AAC?

[idiotnot]

Presumably DRM'd iTunes, with your phone functioning like an iPod. And since most macs come with bluethooth these days, as other people have mentioned, just transfer things across with bluetooth.

Not that much of a new idea.

[shippo]

At least in the UK, there are already phones out there that can play back audio from a memory card. Over a year ago I saw a collegue uploading MP3 files to a 64MB memory card which he then inserted into his phone, giving him enough music to listen to on his short train journey home. I'm not sure which make of phone it was, though.

The only difference is that this one will allow the playback of Apple's DRMed AAC files.

Re:Not that much of a new idea.

[chendo]

Actually, the whole thing has been on Japanese phones for a while, now. Remember the post on slashdot about Japanese's DoCoMo being able to stream DVD-quality videos already? Japanese cell-phone technology are far-far beyond what the rest of the world has at the moment.

You're off by a factor of 10e3

[alispguru]

The multi-million dollar cell-phone ringer market ...

I think you meant to say the multi-billion dollar cell-phone ring tone market.

I didn't believe it either...

Re:You're off by a factor of 10e3

[Eric_Cartman_South_P]

Wow. Holy Shit. I had no idea. Billion with a B.

Just wow.

My Motorola MPX200 already holds 256MB of MP3s.

[PoorLenore]

I'm not sure what's so great about this. I have a Motorola MPX200 'Smartphone' (my one concession to the world of Windows), with a 256MB SD card stuffed in it. It plays four or five albums of MP3s and battery life is no problem. (Ring tones are .wav files, of up to about 1MB.) OK, I can't plug it into iTunes, but that's really no big deal, is it? What's more, with a bit of unlocking to run uncertificated apps, I have a decent music player, a good simulator of a TI scientific calc., blah, blah, blah. It even lets me talk to other people over a digital network: whatever next?

I don't buy it...

[moltar77]

What, still no ogg vorbis support??

I don't think I will be buying one until it has OGG.

Overkill?

[SteveM]

Yeah, I had to use google to find the Terminal app in OS X.

Couldn't you just have used the OS X find command? Isn't Google a bit of overkill for this?

SteveM

Re:Overkill?

[dasmegabyte]

Or he could have looked in the folder marked Applications. Terminal's in a folder under that one called Utilities.

Real fucking difficult. Use Google if that's what's easy for you...but it's hardly a hidden tool.

Re:Overkill?

[Jucius Maximus]

"Yeah, I had to use google to find the Terminal app in OS X."

"Couldn't you just have used the OS X find command? Isn't Google a bit of overkill for this?"

You forget: When new to OS X, you don't know that there's a find command, or even that the 'Terminal' app is called 'Terminal' . (Actually I never really used the find command until I saw steve using it in iTunes in the 2004 WWDC video.)

When I got my first OS X machine in 2003, I searched for a while in the finder, and then ended up asking my mac-addict friend who told me where to find it. While OS X overall is wonderful, I do believe that opening a shell in particular is not an intuitive activity for users new to the environment.

Re:Overkill?

[SteveM]

... When new to OS X, you don't know that there's a find command ...

Clue #1, it is called the Finder! :-)

A quick trip to the Help menu, and typing in "search" led very quickly to info about the find command.

And it is pretty obvious where to find help, via the Help menu in the Finder.

And while in help I entered the search terms "command line", "shell", "bash", "tcsh", "term", "bsd", "unix" all of which led me to info about the program "Terminal". Many of which had an option to open Terminal.

So now I know how to search and that a program called Terminal looks light it will do what I need. So I use the find command to find terminal. And there it is.

Pretty straight forward IMHO.

SteveM

Re:Overkill?

[FredFnord]

So, you mean, actually use the 'help' command?

You know, it's amazing how few geeks are willing to do that little thing. They've gotten used to being 'too smart' for the built-in help to be useful, so they never even use it when they've got a really simple, basic question. It's sad, because it often saves boatloads of time, and one can usually tell the difference between questions that will be answered in it and questions that won't.

Not always, though. I was setting up Mac OS X Server a while back, and I was banging my head against trying to get NAT (well, PAT, actually) working. I was configuring one thing at a time, hadn't gotten as far as email or firewall or web or anything like that, was just working on DHCP and NAT. Machines would get IP addresses but they couldn't get out to see the internet.

I was really getting annoyed, and before I went off and started googling for the answer, I opened up help and typed 'Why the goddamn hell can't I get NAT to see my network connection you pile of crap?'.

It gave me back a list of answers, the second of which was 'Can't Share Network Connection Using Nat', where it cheerfully informed me that since the firewall packet diverter was an integral part of NAT, it wouldn't work without the firewall service turned on.

Now, admittedly, it would've been a lot nicer if, when I'd turned on NAT with the firewall off, the system had said, 'Whoa, cowboy, that just won't work!' In fact, I think it's totally insane that it didn't. But I've got to admit, swearing at my computer in sheer frustration and having the computer, in response, tell me exactly how to fix the problem... that's a golden moment.

-fred

Re:Overkill?

[drinkypoo]

While I agree that just looking for it should turn it up in short order, I don't agree that putting the CLI into Utilities makes any sense. It's just another interface to the system. It belongs right in "Applications". Calling it "Terminal" doesn't make as much sense as some other names they probably could have chosen, either, but maybe Amiga still has a trademark on naming the shell icon "CLI".

Re:Overkill?

[drinkypoo]

Clue #1, it is called the Finder! :-)

Yeah, and Microsoft's free email client is called outlook express, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to take you anywhere quickly (or at any speed) and show you anything.

But Apple owns the iPhone domain and they have...

[adzoox]

Apple has actually prototyped two phone systems in the past. One was in conjunction with Seimens and was a dock for the Newton.

The other was called The Paladin

Samsung Uproar did this in 2000

[rice0067]

My Samsung Uproar (works on sprint) holds 64 megs, and I sync it with iTunes (although mp3 only) via uproar x Uproar specs
UproarX Homepage
Anyway its a great phone and had good battery life. but now i have an ipod. And on windows it uses music match.

Re:Sorry to burst your bubble...

[Frogbeater]

What network (Kazaa, Edonkey, etc.) does Pocket tunes use to find online mp3s?

I see the shoutcast streaming on the website but I don't see a section on mp3 downloading.

Is it "legal" or p2p?

Could see this coming a mile away

[Morky]

Prediction: Apple licenses Motorola technology to produce an iPod mini/cell phone. Jobs has been talking about this kind of convergence for years.

Re:12 songs? does it play pong also?

[grasshoppah]

As a current developer of cell phone applications, I would kill for the amount of storage to store 12 songs, and the memory to play them. I think most computer people would be suprised by the hardware restrictions of even current generation cellular phones. I consider myself lucky if the phone I choose to use has more than 64 Kb for each application and > 256Kb of heap memory.

Give me what I want...

[tf23]

12 songs isn't enough. Someone posted above that 12 songs probably equates to 48mb of available memory in the thing. Thinking of it in that way making it seemingly more liveable.

What else will the phone do? Here's what I'd like to see it do (and it'd guarantee I'd go out and buy it when it came out):

1) a calendar display that syncs with iCal
2) a addressbook that syncs with, yeah, you guessed... the Address Book app
3) a usb port so I can plug it into my laptop and mount it on the desktop and/or use it to dialout to get a tcp/ip stack (this hasn't been working lately on my a620 and sprintpcs)
4) iPhoto integration if the phone has a camera on it
5) headphone jack
6) bluetooth
7) speaker-phone mode

My guess is the second generation version of the device will have the same hard drive in it which the current Mini iPod uses. That is, if they can swing the battery juice to hold enough that the thing is useable for a few days before it'd need a recharge.

Exciting for a different reason

[amichalo]

This is not exciting because of iTunes integration - I mean, after we have come to love carrying 10,000 songs in our pockets how can we go back to 12?

No, this announcement gets me drooling for the Apple-Motorola collaboration that could bring to market the first ever Apple branded PDA-Phone. It has been said before that Apple has all the pieces it needs for PDA functionality, but WiFi or Bluetooth isn't going to make a personal communicator useful beyond the home, office, or WiFi Main Street USA. No, Apple needs a mobile phone partner to offer wireless Internet access, oh yeah, and to make phone calls on.

The mobile phone industry went a stray with the whole 'camera phone' concept. Perhaps Apple can resurect the flat PDA market and the breath new life into moible phones with this partnership.

Downloading from iTMS directly to the phone

[doodlelogic]

Unfortunately, this does not seem to be part of the package on offer. From the Motorola website:

iTunes(TM) Alliance -- Motorola and Apple announced a strategic alliance to bring the
iTunes(TM) music player to Motorola's next-generation mobile handsets. Music lovers will be
able to transfer favorite songs from the iTunes(TM) jukebox on their Mac or PC, to Motorola's
next-generation 'always with you' mobile handsets, via a USB or Bluetooth connection.

The phone on offer appears to be not so much "iTMS in your pocket" as a decoder for Apple's DRM.

What would be interesting, if the alliance continues, is a phone with a connection to iTMS and a fast download speed, which could hold a limited number of songs, that could then be transferred (probably over USB) to an iPOD.

The Digital Rebel is USB 1.1...

[blorg]

...although even some cameras that are theoretically "USB2.0", like the Nikon D70, still only transfer at USB1.1 speeds (see the very bottom of the page).

And while USB2.0 is theoretically faster than Firewire, it's well known that it is not faster in sustained transfers - I've got a Maxtor Firewire/USB2.0 external hard drive that bears this out; even the manufacturer quotes a higher speed for the firewire interface. (See here for example stats.)

Will you *please* STFU about Ogg?

[revscat]

Sweet merciful crap I am sick and tired of people complaining about Ogg support. Nobody cares! It will not change the world! Quit your incessant whining you freaky person, get out, and find something more worthy of your time! Christ! It's not like there aren't millions of people being slaughtered in Sudan or something. But oh no, some cell phone doesn't support Ogg! Boo hoo it's criminal it's a tragedy why oh why can't they do things the right way woe is me woe is me.

Cuz nobody cares you ijit!

With the friends Ogg has it's going to suffer the same fate as the Amiga, and for similar reasons: their proponents are really irritating.

I've said it before...

[TrojanHorse]

I mentioned this the other day on the Newton reminiscing thread... the original OS for the iPod was written by a company called Pixo. The OS was used for it's modular nature, but was originally designed to be used as an OS for GSM/CDMA cell phones. If the OS can act as a phone _OR_ as a music player, making it act as a phone _AND_ a music player is the next logical extension. Too bad Pixo is not around anymore.

and

[thatguywhoiam]

Did I miss anything... Oh yeah, Phone.

One more thing... you forgot Pony.

Re:if only motorola make a phone that meets my nee

[Paulrothrock]

One more thing: A higher gain antenna so you get reception in places like, um, buildings. Because most people spend their time there. Now that's intuitive design.

I favor a new labelling system for cell phones. It would have antenna gain, standby time, and talk time clearly visible on all phone displays, kinda like EPA fuel economy for cars. That way, people would be able to make their selection with more information about how the phone performs. Since cell phones are becoming essential pieces of our infrastructure, it's important that people make decisions that reflect what a cell phone is for: Making and receiving calls. In an emergency, I'd trade my camera, Java games, and web browser for a 5Db gain antenna that can get me a clear call to 911.

Re:But Apple owns the iPhone domain and they have.

[jcostantino]

Bleh... it looks like a Duo ate a fax machine and a bucket of white paint fell on it.

I would really like to see a color screen, iSync compatable, Bluetooth enabled Apple GSM phone. Probably won't happen though. Too damn many players in the phone market and Apple's product would end up being $600-700 before any carrier subsidy - if any. For my $700 I would have a crack at quite a few "smart phones" that are already out.

I'd love to see Apple make a 5x7" LCD tablet with one of the iPod hard drives, USB and Firewire running 10.3 on a low power G4. That is where their R&D should go towards, they already have the greatest handwriting recognition system in the world (Inkwell, from the Newton Rosetta Stone), all they need to do is deploy it!

Remote control for airport express?

[ruiner13]

Ok, so Apple is teaming up with Motorola, they could possibly make the phone a controller for iTunes, right? If somehow bluetooth was a bit more ranged, or it had WiFi.... This could lead to the "remote control" thing that every critic seems to be complaining the Airport Express lacks.

Mp3 Ring Tones?

[MonkeyCookie]

Great, now we'll have even more annoying ring tones that will go off in restaurants or cinemas.

It would be great fun to replace someone's ring tone with an mp3 of a voice that says something like "I'm an annoying person!" over and over.

Motorola V3 Razr storage capacity

[The Lynxpro]

What I want to know is how is this going to work with the upcoming Motorola V3 Razr? The phone is slick with its metal clamshell case, Bluetooth support, camera phone, MP3 ringtones, etc. But from what I've read, the phone only has 5.5 megabytes of storage, and no MMC/SD expansion slot. Will the purchased ringtones stream from iTunes over the mobile phone signal?

http://www.motorola.com/mdirect/hellomoto/experi en ce/v3/flash/default.shtml?flash=true

http://www.mobile-review.com/review/motorola-v3- en .shtml

Re:12 songs? does it play pong also?

[nanojath]

That's really interesting, thanks, I would not have guessed...

Re:But iTunes is not mp3 ?

[wbd]

Picky, picky! ;-)

Besides....I _said_ WAV!

And I said "possibly others I can't remember". The one I couldn't remember was AIFF. Thanx.

iTunes for Linux??

[AlchemyCA]

This comes on the same day Moto announces their new Linux/Java based A780 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5382692917.html / phone. Motorola also announced today that a deal with Apple will bring an Apple-created version of iTunes software to "all" of Motorola's mass-market phones by mid-2005. How far are we really from having iTunes on our Linux boxen???

There is a bigger story here.

[Corpus_Callosum]

I believe Apple is looking to the future where handheld devices will fuse into single all-purpose devices. This relationship is probably the first stage in a well thought out roadmap towards a handheld device that, frankly, is the successor to the average personal computer.

That might sound strange to many of you, but it really hit me recently when I received my new Nokia 7610 phone. This phone is tiny, has a big color display, has 8Meg of memory, a removable MMC (memory card) that has 64Meg (like a small hard-drive), bluetooth, Java, megapixel camera, video camera, TCP/IP, etc.. You can get a bluetooth keyboard for the thing - hell if you could connect a monitor to it, it could replace a PC for most tasks - it is more powerful than the average PC 10 years ago. Consider where this is going...

It is innevitable that these small devices WILL become powerful enough to replace PCs. You will pop them out of their charging cradles and bring it around in their native mobile mode, or pop them in to their cradles and sit down to a keyboard, mouse, monitor. The PC will go away when these things have matured a bit more.

The iPod will merge with the phone. The computer will merge with the phone. The personal organizer HAS merged with the phone. The camera HAS merged with the phone. The video-camera is IN-PROCESS of merging with the phone.

Apple has a chance here... I think this relationship shows they are going for it.

More news

[elbertc]

Found this with more information and additional discussion about Motorolla and iTunes..

There is more than one kind of RAID

[FredFnord]

There are several firewire RAIDs available, including one five-drive RAID-5 enclosure that, according to the tests I've seen, can burst more bandwidth than FW400 can provide.

Fortunately, it's a FW800 device. Or it can use SATA, though there's not much of a speed advantage for that over FW800 in this instance. It has USB2, too, but they suggested that you not bother. (The drives it uses internally are regular old ATA133, not SATA.)

Available at fwdepot.com. No, I'm not an employee, just a very happy customer.

-fred