PayPal Settles Class Action Lawsuit

ephidryn writes "I just received a notice from paypal which indicates that I may be involved in a class action lawsuit against paypal. Apparently two PayPal users, Roberta Toher and Jeffrey Resnick, filed two seperate lawsuits that were later combined into one class action suit. ZDNet has a story that notes: "PayPal said it would pay a total of $9.25 million to settle the federal class-action suit..." I'm so ready to receive my check for $0.35US" kai5263499 adds "The settlement states that anyone who opened an account between Oct 1, 1999 and Jan 1, 2004 is elegible to participate in the settlement. According to their Plan of Allocation you can fill out a short form or a long form to sign up."

Comments

the real story

[ack154]

The ZDNet story they link in the article is actually for eBay's problem with double charging fees, but mentions the PayPal situation near the end...

THIS is the actual PayPal story (from 6/14/04), which is referenced at the bottom of the eBay one linked in the article.

Paypal still gets interest

[kai5263499]

One of the things they ask you when you fill out the short form is if you want the $50 put in your paypal account. Which means paypal will still get interest off the majority of those that do have their $50 sent to their paypal account.

Re:Paypal still gets interest

[atrizzah]

Well, I'm sure they'd much rather have the money as cash. I doubt most of the Paypal users will let it just sit there in their account

Re:Paypal still gets interest

[jbarr]

One of the things they ask you when you fill out the short form is if you want the $50 put in your paypal account. Which means paypal will still get interest off the majority of those that do have their $50 sent to their paypal account.

Actually, this is typical of these types of class-action suits. Consider a class action suit against the phone company Ameritech in Illinois a few years back. The "payment" to the class? An Ameritech phone card with a couple hours of free calling time.

At least in this case, the "payment" can be transformed easily into real cash.

I don't understand it all...

[SlashdotMeNow]

I got the email too, but I can't figure out if I can claim anything or not. I luckily never had my account suspended or overcharged, but it looks like the suit may get me something anyway... Is that right?

Re:I don't understand it all...

[override11]

from what I read, you can only join this claim if you had any kind of problem with charges or with paypal's resolving of a problem.

Re:I don't understand it all...

[Reckless Visionary]

You obviously read wrong then. There are two types of claimants, and anyone who signed up between 1999 and 2004 has a claim to a portion of the settlement.

Re:I don't understand it all...

[ack154]

You can make a Long Form Claim if, prior to February 1, 2004, PayPal caused you to lose money because of any of the following: * You experienced an unauthorized or incorrect electronic transfer to or from your PayPal account; * Your PayPal account was improperly restricted or access was improperly limited; * You requested information from PayPal about an account restriction or limitation or unauthorized transfer and you did not receive a satisfactory response; and/or * You experienced or reported an unsatisfactory result from a dispute with PayPal involving a chargeback, a refund, a buyer complaint, or PayPal's Seller Protection Policy, Buyer Complaint Process and/or Buyer Protection Policy.

Actually, it does seem like you need to have lost money. That's from the long form, and the short form has a very similar wording.

Re:I don't understand it all...

[Mr Guy]

No, there are two classes, the first is the standard settlement which only requires you to have openned your account in the window. The other class is the "disputed" class that requires that you fill out one of the two forms and receives a different settlement. The first class divides equally the sum of $1 million, the second divides according to awards.

Re:I don't understand it all...

[Daniel]

That's a nice thought, but the settlement email very specifically states that you have to swear under penalty of perjury that you were harmed in some way by PayPal (that you experienced an unauthorized money transfer, denial of access to your account, etc).

Daniel

Re:I don't understand it all...

[jhoffoss]

Actually, the short form gets you $50, deposited to your PayPal account, or $49 by form of a check. I didn't see details, but I assume the long form would be based upon proveable losses.

Re:I don't understand it all...

[RevAaron]

Indeed. Are we the only two that seem to be able to read? Right off the page for the short form:

You can make a Short Form Claim if, prior to February 1, 2004, PayPal caused you to lose money because of any of the following:

* You experienced an unauthorized or incorrect electronic transfer to or from your PayPal account;
* Your PayPal account was improperly restricted or access was improperly limited;
* You requested information from PayPal about an account restriction or limitation or unauthorized transfer and you did not receive a satisfactory response; and/or
* You experienced or reported an unsatisfactory result from a dispute with PayPal involving a chargeback, a refund, a buyer complaint, or PayPal's Seller Protection Policy, Buyer Complaint Process and/or Buyer Protection Policy.

I mean, what is hard to understand about that? You can only claim if one of those apply.

Re:I don't understand it all...

[Mr Guy]

2. Statutory Damage Fund Claimants The plan of allocation designates $1 million of the Net Settlement Fund to a "Statutory Damage Fund," to be distributed equally among all Fund Claimants who are not Dispute Resolution Claimants. This means that if you are a member of the Class and do not fall within the definition of a "Dispute Resolution Claimant," as set out above, you can make a claim for a payment from the Statutory Damage Fund.

Ok, so what makes me a member of the class?

4. HOW DO I KNOW IF I AM PART OF THE SETTLEMENT? On July 12, 2004, Judge Fogel entered an order granting preliminary approval of the settlement and certifying the following class for purposes of the settlement: All Persons who opened a PayPal account during the period from October 1, 1999 through January 31, 2004. Excluded from the class are any judicial officer to whom the lawsuit is assigned; PayPal and any of its affiliates; any current or former employee, officer, or director of PayPal; anyone who resides in Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Finland, France, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, The Netherlands, or United Kingdom; and all persons who timely and validly request exclusion from the class pursuant to this notice.

What are you still seem to be describing the "Dispute Resolution Claimants."

Re:I don't understand it all...

[Mr Guy]

There are THREE forms, as outlined in the claim letter:
Statutory Damage Claim Form,
Short Claim Form,
Long Claim Form

Re:I don't understand it all...

[RevAaron]

... then is there a seperate form for those who satisfy the #4 requirement you pasted above but do not satisfy the requirements on that form? There's obviously some inconsistency here...

Re:I don't understand it all...

[iocat]

You can file for statutory damages no matter what, even if you never had a problem with PayPal. From the site:

If you believe you are a claim member and do not fall within the definition of a "Dispute Resolution Claimant" as defined in the Notice of Pendency of Class Action and Proposed Settlement you can make a claim for a payment from the Statutory Damage Fund.

Use this form to file a statutory damage claim.

Re:I don't understand it all...

[Guspaz]

According to the settlement, as a resident of Canada I should still get something (Canada is not in the list of excluded countries), and even though I'm NOT a Dispute Resolution Claimant (I had no problems with my account), I still get money. And yet, both claim forms are for US addresses only, and only for people who are Dispute Resolution Claimants.

I can't make a claim that I'm entitled to based on the forms. I've emailed them to ask what to do.

Re:I don't understand it all...

[Mr Guy]

Yes, there are three forms, as I've said on other posts, as outlined in Point #7. There is the settlement form, for people who have no real grievance but are part of the class, and then there are two types of forms for those who wish to claim a grievance; those are the short and long forms that have been mentioned. People keep forgetting the first form.

Re:I don't understand it all...

[Anonymous Coward]

You people should READ the email you received!! It says you DON'T HAVE TO HAVE HAD A PROBLEM TO BE A STATUTORY CLAIMANT !! There are THREE GROUPS.... THOSE WITH BIG FAT PROBLEMS (LONG FORM), THOSE WITH MEDIUM-SIZED PROBLEMS (SHORT FORM), AND THOSE WITH NO PROBLEMS. First they divvy up the money the people who file the complaint forms, short and long, and if there's ANYTHING LEFT, ALL THAT GETS DIVVIED UP BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO JUST HAD PAYPAL ACCOUNTS BETWEEN THAT PERIOD OF TIME WITH ZERO PROBLEMS -- IF THERE'S ANYTHING LEFT. Since the "medium problem" short form people are supposed getting like only $50 (MORE IF THE BIG FAT PROBLEMS PEOPLE DON'T USE THEIR SHARE), and the BIG FAT PROBLEMS PEOPLE don't HAVE any amount they are limited to because they are BIG FAT PROBLEMS to begin with, you're likely to get ZERO out of this because they won't even generate a check for less than a buck and if you want to go thru that trouble for something like 50 cents credited to your PayPal account IF there's anything left to divide to group number THREE (the no-problem) STATUTORY group, then be my guest. However, if you want to OPT OUT, it costs you TWO STAMPS to mail an opt out to each side's attorney. People may want to gamble with this because ANY AND ALL PROBLEMS YOU HAD DURING THAT TIMEFRAME CAN NEVER, EVER BE GONE BACK TO FOR RESOLUTION, NOT JUST THESE PROBLEMS..... SO RE-READ YOUR EMAIL TO SEE WHERE IT SAYS THAT! If you choose to do NOTHING, then you can't be in THIS class action suit and will get zero -- AND -- you didn't opt out in writing so you can't be part of any FUTURE LAWSUITS THAT STILL MAY ARISE FROM THESE ISSUES IN THE FUTURE IF ONE OF THE OTHER LAWSUITS GOES FORWARD AS A CLASS ACTION. As one of the STATUTORY claimaints, the ones that didn't have a problem but can get the leftover pickins that Group A and Group B didn't suck up, if you got more than a buck I'd be shocked. But doing NOTHING is sure to get you NOTHING, either from this class action suit OR any further lawsuits that arise that have anything to do with NOT ONLY THESE ISSUES, BUT ALL OTHER ISSUES YOU EVER HAD WITH PAYPAL OR PERHAPS EBAY IF THEY DRAG EACH OTHER INTO IT IN THE FUTURE. HERE'S THE PARAGRAPH ABOUT THE NO-PROBLEMS YET, STATUTORY CLAIMANTS:

2. Statutory Damage Fund Claimants
The plan of allocation designates $1 million of the Net Settlement Fund to a "Statutory Damage Fund," to be distributed equally among all Fund Claimants who are not Dispute Resolution Claimants. This means that if you are a member of the Class and do not fall within the definition of a "Dispute Resolution Claimant," as set out above, you can make a claim for a payment from the Statutory Damage Fund. The Statutory Damage Fund provides compensation for potential statutory damages under the Electronic Fund Transfer Act ("EFTA"), 15 U.S.C. 1693 et seq. Statutory damages under the EFTA are limited by law to no more than $500,000 for any class of individuals claiming "the same failure to comply." Plaintiffs' counsel contended in the litigation and for purposes of settlement that PayPal was potentially liable for multiple failures to comply, a position PayPal vigorously opposed.

Re:I don't understand it all...

[TMB]

Yes, please, believe that.

The more of you who don't read the full settlement, the more of it I get, since that $1 million is split evenly amongst everyone who fits into the class...

[TMB]

Here's the Email...

[neilb78]

Dear [Your Name],

IF YOU OPENED A PAYPAL ACCOUNT BETWEEN OCTOBER 1999 AND JANUARY 2004, YOU MAY BE ENTITLED TO A PAYMENT FROM A CLASS ACTION SETTLEMENT.

PLEASE READ THIS NOTICE CAREFULLY.

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
SAN JOSE DIVISION

In re PayPal litigation
Case No. CV-02-01227-JF (PVT)

NOTICE OF PENDENCY OF CLASS ACTION AND PROPOSED SETTLEMENT

1. WHY DID I GET THIS NOTICE?
You have been sent this Notice because the records of PayPal, Inc. indicate you are a current or former PayPal account holder. This means you may be eligible to receive a payment from the proposed class action settlement in the lawsuit In re PayPal Litigation, Case No. 02 1227 JF PVT, pending in the United States District Court for the Northern District of California in San Jose. This Notice provides a summary of the terms of the proposed settlement. It also explains the lawsuit, your legal rights under the settlement, what benefits are available to you under the settlement, and how to get them.

2. WHAT IS A CLASS ACTION?
In a class action, one or more people, called Class Representatives (in this case Roberta Toher and Jeffrey Resnick), sue on behalf of people who have similar claims. All of these people are members of the Class. One court resolves the issues for all Class Members, except for those who exclude themselves from the Class. United States District Judge Jeremy Fogel is in charge of this class action.

3. WHAT IS THIS LAWSUIT ABOUT?
In early 2002, Plaintiffs Roberta Toher and Jeffrey Resnick filed separate lawsuits against PayPal, Inc. These two cases were later consolidated into one lawsuit in the United States District Court for the Northern District of California, San Jose Division, entitled In re PayPal Litigation, Case No. CV 02 01227-JF (PVT). The lawsuit alleges that PayPal violated the federal Electronic Fund Transfer Act ("EFTA"), 15 U.S.C. 1693 et seq., including provisions requiring PayPal to supply customers with information about dispute resolution procedures and to follow certain procedures when investigating complaints of unauthorized or incorrect electronic fund transfers. For example, the lawsuit claims that PayPal did not provide account statements in the manner required by the EFTA. The lawsuit further alleges that PayPal has placed inappropriate restrictions or other limits on customers' accounts and engaged in other improper practices. Based on these practices, the lawsuit asserts claims under California state law for conversion, money had and received, negligence, and violations of consumer protection statutes.

PayPal does not believe that it did anything wrong. In fact, PayPal disputes that the EFTA, originally passed in 1978, applies to its business. PayPal denies any and all liability for the claims alleged in the lawsuit. The Court did not decide in favor of the Plaintiffs or PayPal. Instead, beginning in the fall of 2003, the parties began a series of settlement negotiation sessions mediated by United States Magistrate Judge Edward Infante. Eventually, in November 2003, both sides agreed to a settlement in principle. By settling their claims, both parties avoided the uncertainty and cost of a trial. The settlement provides money and other benefits to the Class. On June 11, 2004, the parties entered into a formal, written Settlement Agreement, which is on file with the Court and available on the Internet at https://www.paypal.com/settlement/. By entering into the Settlement Agreement, PayPal is not admitting any wrongdoing. PayPal continues to believe that it did not do anything wrong. The Representative Plaintiffs and the attorneys appointed by the Court to represent the Class believe that the settlement is fair to Class Members. By this notice, the Court is not expressing any view on the merits of the lawsuit.

4. HOW DO I KNOW IF I AM PART OF THE SETTLEMENT?
On July 12, 2004, Judge Fogel entered an order granting preliminary approval of the settlement and certifying the

Re:Here's the Email...

[Dust'-_-'Worm]

OK, Love ur email, however, I have been a user of both ebay and pay pal for about 2 years and never got email like this. Does it mean i wont be able to join the class action. Hmmm, wierd, I wonder how many more ppl like me there is?
--- Angry ebayer who doesnt get free money ---

Re:Here's the Email...

[neilb78]

Would you like me to forward you my USD$0.31

Re:Here's the Email...

[Dust'-_-'Worm]

Hahah, nah LOL, just fell left out. But thanks anyway. It looks like there are few good ppl left on this planet that would share there luck of 0.31c with a complete stranger. Hahha, thanks

Legal Fees

[usefool]

$3.4 million (about 1/3) of which would go to paying its customers' legal fees

So who's the winner here?

Re:Legal Fees

[DaHat]

I always knew I should have gone into law.

Re:Legal Fees

[dave-tx]

So who's the winner here?

The lawyers, as usual. In every class action lawsuit that I've been a part of (as a member of the class), they're the only ones making any money.

That in itself doesn't really bother me, it's just that the whole thing seems like a waste of time, money, and resources.

Re:Legal Fees

[squarefish]

direct from the email

10. HOW WILL THE LAWYERS FOR THE CLASS BE PAID?
From the inception of the litigation in early 2002 to the present, Class Counsel have not received any payment for their services in prosecuting the case, nor have they been reimbursed for any out-of-pocket expenses. If the Court approves the proposed settlement, Class Counsel will make a motion to the Court for an award of attorneys' fees of up to $3,332,500 and reimbursement of expenses of up to $135,000, to be paid from the $9.25 million settlement fund. Class Counsel will also seek reimbursement from the settlement fund on behalf of certain of the named plaintiffs in the litigation for reimbursement of their expenses related to their service as class representatives in the litigation, in an aggregate amount not to exceed $15,000. The motion will be heard at the settlement hearing described below in Section 11.

Class Counsel's motion for an award of attorneys' fees and reimbursement of expenses is based on various factors that include the benefits obtained for the class through litigation. These benefits include the $9.25 million cash settlement and PayPal's agreement to the injunctive relief requirements. In addition, certain changes to PayPal's business practices are attributable in part to this litigation, including PayPal's decision to undertake to return to its customers approximately $5.1 million in those accounts to which access was limited for 180 days or more; modifications to PayPal's arbitration provision in its User Agreement and its replacement with a clause that limits PayPal's ability to compel arbitration where the total amount of the award sought is $10,000 or greater; and various other changes in PayPal's business practices during the pendency of the litigation.

Class Counsel submitted their proposed request for attorneys' fees to the Magistrate Judge who had previously presided over discovery and settlement discussions. Class Counsel's request for attorneys' fees is equal to the amount recommended by the Magistrate Judge.

Re:Legal Fees

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but the problem is that you develop ambulance-chasing lawyers who initiate class action lawsuits for every little thing. Did the cover you put on your drink at McDonald's not stay on and resulted in you spilling it? A class action lawsuit will solve that! There are hundreds if not thousands of lawyers who have made a career out of creating class action lawsuits from frivolous things. Lawyers, they're considered evil for a reason.

Re:Legal Fees

[dave-tx]

That was my point, that it was a waste of time, money, and resources that could be better spent elsewhere. I don't begrudge the lawyers what they make - I haven't been through law school, but I would guess that it's not easy - but I think that the allocation of money awarded in class action suits (or settlements, as in this particular case) should be questioned. While it may be argued that the spirit of the class action is being fulfilled by punishing the defendant (Paypal, in this case), the only ones who really see any reward are the lawyers, and obviously, they weren't among those wronged by the defendant.

Unfortunately, there seems little way of changing the system - preventing this sort of lawsuit only eliminates the threat of legal action against corporate malpractice. Although I would hate to see it come down to regulation, perhaps there needs to be some oversight as to what percentage lawyers can actually earn from these cases.

I suppose, all things considered, I agree with your thesis - Lawyers are evil.

Re:Legal Fees

[twstdr00t]

Come on guys.. at least 4 lawyers for 2 years.. that works out to a small $425,000/year. These guys are living in poverty!

Re:Legal Fees

[harlows_monkeys]

The lawyers, as usual. In every class action lawsuit that I've been a part of (as a member of the class), they're the only ones making any money

What are their costs in bringing and conducting the class action? Those are among the most expensive litigation. How many class actions don't end up going anywhere, leaving the lawyers with a big loss, since preparing for a class action is expensive?

Re:Legal Fees

[Jonas the Bold]

More importantly, who's the loser? Paypal.

They only did a small amount of damage to each user, so the users themselves aren't really entitled to a lot of money.

Re:Legal Fees

[Anonymous Coward]

so they made a lot of money,

should we fault them for that.

and if they lost. guess what they get a check for, zero.

its a gamble for the lawyers and 1/3 is not too out of line.

Re:Legal Fees

[dave-tx]

What are their costs in bringing and conducting the class action? Those are among the most expensive litigation.

Good question - I didn't know that class action suits were significantly more costly to run than individual cases. What makes that so? I can think of administrative costs of tracking members of the class, but there must be more than just that.

Re:Legal Fees

[Anonymous Coward]

Well said, Mr. Lawyer.

Re:Legal Fees

[Condore]

Hmm.. let's do a little fuzzy math..
$3.4 million / 2 lawyers
wow.. millionaires.. and all it took was a couple months of thier time..

Re:Legal Fees

[dnahelix]

A lawyer cannot initiate a class action suit without a plaintiff(s). If a plaintiff comes to a lawyer, and if that lawyer believes that the plaintiff has a case, he will file suit. If a company screwed you over, wouldn't you want to do the same?

There are many more lawsuits that get thrown out and the lawyer doesn't make anything and his time is wasted.

Also, if you are a member of the class, and you don't agree with the lawsuit, then opt out.
However, I do think there should be a cap on how much a lawyer/firm can make on a class-action. And I agree that law firms take way too much of settlements and judgements.

Re:Legal Fees

[dnahelix]

Oh, I also meant to say that I don't think it's an example of lawyers being evil, just people being greedy.

Re:Legal Fees

[black mariah]

Well retorted, Mr. Gas Station Clerk.

Re:Legal Fees

[uberdave]

Lawyers typically get paid whether they lose or win. I'm guessing that the original plaintif would be paying their fee if they lost.

Re:Legal Fees

[Anonymous Coward]

There are hundreds if not thousands of lawyers who have made a career out of creating class action lawsuits from frivolous things.

Is this case based on frivolous things? From what I've heard Paypal are a bunch of fraudsters, reclaiming many times the value when there's a dispute and playing both ends against the middle (i.e they tak from the vendor but then don't give it to the customer).
They deserve more than a lawsuit, they deserve a spell in Poundass Pen.

Re:Legal Fees

[Anonymous Coward]

Lawyers typically get paid whether they lose or win. I'm guessing that the original plaintif would be paying their fee if they lost.

Look up 'contingency fees'. It's probably on google or something. 'tard.

Please, Please, Please don't let this kill Paypal.

[Unworthy Advocate]

Man, Pay Pal is good stuff. I hope this doesn't get them flushed down the old corporate crapper. I know several people who were protected against fraud because they used PayPal. Can I get a witness up in here for Pay Pal?

Watch out!

[DJ-Dodger]

Sounds like another one of those phishing scams to me! ;)

Re:Watch out!

[kai5263499]

No, they made PayPal put up a link: https:/www.paypal.com/settlement/ to prove that it's not a fraud.

Re:Watch out!

[loconet]

We all know https/http needs a : and // after it! .. this is a scam i tell you!

Re:Watch out!

[Anonymous Coward]

OH MY!

Welcome to PayPal. You are about to be redirected to a non-PayPal site hosted by the claims administrator for the recently-announced class action settlement. At the site, you will be able to learn more about the litigation and class action settlement agreement.

Re:Watch out!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Welcome to paypay. you are about to be redirected.."

humm.. me thinks..

Re:Watch out!

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, if that's not proof enough, you can see it at my Cayman Islands mirror:

https://www.paypal.ky/settlement/

I think that's pretty well proof it's not a scam. :)

Re:Watch out!

[nealmcb]

Well, https: /www.paypal.com/settlement/
says

Welcome to PayPal. You are about to be redirected to a non-PayPal site hosted by the claims administrator for the recently-announced class action settlement. At the site, you will be able to learn more about the litigation and class action settlement agreement.

and redirects to
http://www.settlement4onlinepayments.com

which is "not found: 2(SERVFAIL)"
right now. Sigh.

Comic gold

[CarrionBird]

I just love how they claim that banking laws don't apply to them. It's amazing what you can get away with if you have the cash.

Re:Comic gold

[Anonymous Coward]

It's amazing what you can get away with if you have the cash.

what are you talking about?

Re:Comic gold

[KarmaOverDogma]

Actually, they do have to follow a good number of finance/commerce laws, but to get to your point: perhaps they make these claims because they haven't been defined as a Bank yet.

You may want them to be, since they do so many transactions that affect monies and commerce in the states and worldwide. But until you can set up a mortgage, loan, or interest bearing savings account with them, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to be cited for bank law violations: you can't put a (legal) square peg in a round hole. They avoid offering these services precisely for the reason that seems to upset you.

The appropriate legal solution here would be to reform banking laws in the new age of internet finance to have relevant legal banking code apply to them.

.

Re:Comic gold

[CarrionBird]

They take peoples deposits and hold it for them (while collecting interest or investing the aggregated funds). If that's not a bank, what is it?

Now that I thnk about it, how can paypal absorb an online bank (X.com) and still say they're not a bank?

Re:Comic gold

[alexburke]

But until you can set up a mortgage, loan, or interest bearing savings account with them

What the hell is this then?

Or this?

Or this?

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

A bank, they are. A bank, they must be regulated as.

Why is paypal to blame for this?

[carnivore302]

Really, the article states that paypal didn't hold up to some regulations which require them to have some kind of service in case a deal goes wrong. I buy something from you, and it appears to be broken. Now I should be able to resolve this through paypal. This might be good for the customer, but from paypal's view this is nuts. They are just an intermediary that handles the monetary transactions.

As an analogy, suppose you pay something using an ATM, you can't honestly expect the bank to resolve your problems with the product you just bought.


Come on, CLICK HERE. I know you want to do it.

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[SlashdotMeNow]

Paypal has a long history of bad customer service. Example: If someone used a bad / blocked credit card to pay you via PayPal, they immediately froze your account and all other money from legitimate sources. They are the ONLY credit card facility that will not take any risk. Read their terms and conditions for receivers of money. Result of this is that thousands of legitimate sellers lost access to millions of dollars for months and months while Paypal refused to help them. PayPal = Evil monopoly.

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[jrumney]

Credit card companies will do the same for "card not present" transactions. The problem with Paypal is that they do not make it clear that they will do it, in fact they do the opposite, they promote Paypal as a safe alternative to other forms of payment. If you have a contract with a credit card provider for handling credit card transactions directly, the consequences of accepting transactions without the card being physically present are more clearly laid out.

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[carnivore302]

Ok, I've heard this before and you're probably right. But isn't it so that they shoud be sued for exactly this, instead of some law which obviously does not apply to them?


Curious about THIS LINK?

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[gbjbaanb]

I think this is because Paypal will charge your credit card, and there are quite a lot of consumer laws concerning cards that state you must have a course of redress if anything goes wrong, re-billing if the card they accept turns out to be stolen etc etc.

The difference with cash is that you're not playing with credit - just real money, and that's not regulated.

I think Paypal just want to be an intermediary with no obligations other than to say 'nothing to do with us mate', and 'we have charged you our fee for using paypal. have a nice day'.

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[swb]

But isn't it so that they shoud be sued for exactly this, instead of some law which obviously does not apply to them?

Paypal's problem is that they want it both ways. They want to act like a financial instution when it suits them, yet they want to be exempted from financial institution rules when it suits them.

Visa/MC could put them out of business if they would issue one-time credit card numbers, associated with specific dollar amounts, thet could be sent via email or whatever and then redeemed at a Visa/MC web site.

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[Telepathetic Man]

"As an analogy, suppose you pay something using an ATM, you can't honestly expect the bank to resolve your problems with the product you just bought."

Actually, you can expect the bank to get involved if you have a complaint about an item you just bought. Seeing as you are likely using a credit card, you are protect from fraudulent sales.

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[Light14u]

To give you an analogy of how this works, I will go over an incidence I just had: - I put an online character up for auction on Ebay. - The winner sends me money via PayPal. - I see the money is in my account, and that the winner is a "verified" PayPal person. - The winner has a "verified" address, but I do not use it as the goods transfered are virtual (online character of a game). - I transfer the character. - The next day, PayPal sends an email saying that the account was hacked, and the transfer was fraudulent. The money that was previously transfered to my PayPal account is now removed. And that is it. In this situation, there is no way PayPal is going to return the money. What happened is that the PayPal account was hacked by someone (still do not know), and they did alot of Ebay auction wins with just "virtual" transfers. Then within a week, they are gone. The real person who owns the account (whom I talked to) says her account was hacked by someone, and she is really sorry. Her Ebay account is now useless, as it has 15+ sequential "FRAUD ACCOUNT! DO NOT USE!" replies for auction wins.

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[Jord]

There is a simple way to protect yourself against this. PayPal specifically states that they will only protect the seller when there is a physical transaction. To avoid getting burned on virtual transaction you need to change it to a physical transaction. In your case, you ship the buyer the CDs for the account (or some other physical item), when they receive the CDs then you hand over the account information.

I am not saying PayPal is perfect, but they do make it clear in their Seller's Protection that they will not cover virtual transactions.

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[AK Marc]

As an analogy, suppose you pay something using an ATM, you can't honestly expect the bank to resolve your problems with the product you just bought.

If I use a credit card, I certainly can expect the bank to resolve my problems. Why? Because, unlike an ATM card where it is a *direct* link from the transaction to your money in the bank, the credit card is a separate service that collects from one party and distributes to the other... Just like PayPal.

From a quick glance at the reasons behind the consumer protection laws that pertain to financial intermediaries (like credit card companies), PayPal should be held to the same standards as all other financial middle-men.

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[AK Marc]

Credit card companies will do the same for "card not present" transactions.

So a credit card company will refuse to pay any of the money owed to a company if someone uses a stolen card there (including money paid before the questioned transaction), as well as refuse to let them accept new transactions? I've had a disputed charge before, and the online retailer didn't have to shut down their credit card processing because someone challenged a charge (as PayPal will force you to do).

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know/care about your disputed charge experience, but Yes, a merchant bank will take all of the money back from you from any payments you received off an unauthorized charge. If it just so happens that you've already withdrawn some of it from your merchant account, they will take funds from other (legitimate) transactions. If it so happens that you still don't have enough money to cover the loss, they will freeze your account until you make a deposit to bring it positive. If you don't make the deposit, they will close the account, ruin your credit and turn it to a collections agency who will usually sue if they first determine that you have the means to satisfy their judgement.

The rub comes from the fact that merchants have no dispute resolution rights for Card Not Present transactions --whether PayPal is involved or they are using their own merchant bank. If someone calls up their bank and says they did not authorize the charge, it comes off their statement unless their signature appears somewhere. Period. The only recourse the merchant has is to sue the Buyer for Fraud. It shifts the burden from the Buyer having to sue to get their money back, to the Merchant having to sue to get their money back --that's the way the law makers intended it to be.

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[Electrum]

The rub comes from the fact that merchants have no dispute resolution rights for Card Not Present transactions --whether PayPal is involved or they are using their own merchant bank. If someone calls up their bank and says they did not authorize the charge, it comes off their statement unless their signature appears somewhere. Period.

That's not true. Merchants can provide other forms of proof, such as delivery confirmation from shipping companies, that the cardholder authorized the charge.

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[Mr Guy]

Visa/MC could put them out of business if they would issue one-time credit card numbers, associated with specific dollar amounts, thet could be sent via email or whatever and then redeemed at a Visa/MC web site.

Visa does half this already. The only part they don't do is letting someone without a merchant account redeem it. If they'd do that, handle the PAYOUT part, they'd be set.

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[swb]

One-time card numbers? Where/how can I get this feature?

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[AK Marc]

Yes, a merchant bank will take all of the money back from you from any payments you received off an unauthorized charge.

You seem to not understand what PayPal is doing. They are taking away money from non-disputed charges once there is a disputed charge. That would be the same as a bad-check fee from your bank equal to your ballance. E.g. you have $10,000 in your account. Someone writes you a check for $5 that bounces. The bank "freezes" your account (they steal your money, all $10,000 of it). You didn't do anything wrong. All you did was receive a payment from someone that did something wrong, and in exchange, you lost all your money.

Yes, the rest of what you say is pretty much correct, but irrelevant to the actions PayPal is taking.

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[Mr Guy]

Generally through the online service of your respective bank. I believe it's a service they aren't required to offer, but most do under various names. For example, Citibank calls them "Virtual Account Numbers", while MNBNA calls them "Shop Safe" numbers. Typically, they issue you a number that is good for between 1 and X transactions (or by dates) between your account and one merchant only; you may reuse the number with that merchant if you reauthorize it for the transaction. You may also set the transaction price limit. Go to your creditor's website and look around for the feature.

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[Anonymous Coward]

If all Paypal did was handle the transactions, there would be no problem. But they habitually suspend accounts, hold the money in suspended accounts hostage, debit accounts without people's permission, and all kinds of other things that interfere with normal transactions for no reason.

Re:Why is paypal to blame for this?

[Anonymous Coward]

"No, but I am curious why you insist on putting it at the end of every post you make manually, instead of putting it in your signature in the proper manner."

Geez, I'm no amazing Kreskin but let me take a stab at it...Maybe, just maybe, it's because he recognizes that you have the ability to turn off the display of sigs and he wants to be certain that you can't avoid seeing his ad.

Payment? You must have experienced a loss...

[pjkundert]

The rules of submission require you to state that you experienced a financial loss, due to very specific circumstances. Most PayPal account holders (the vast majority, I think) have experienced no financial losses as a result of any of the claims stated in this class action's resolution.

Therefore, don't get too excited -- the average PayPal account holder gets nothing from this Class Action resolution...

USA != the world

[Anonymous Coward]

The settlement states that anyone who opened an account between Oct 1, 1999 and Jan 1, 2004 is elegible to participate in the settlement.

No it doesn't. It explicitly excludes residents of every country Paypal operates in except for the USA. I wish people in the USA wouldn't use the word "everyone" when what they mean is "everyone in the USA".

Re:USA != the world

[TDot]

Uhhh, you must be American, lamely presuming that Canadians such as myself still live in igloos, and don't "have the internet". Or perhaps you forget we are a country, who knows...

Re:USA != the world

[Anonymous Coward]

It's true that the USA != the world, but we're working on that.

Re:USA != the world

[elbobo]

Actually it doesn't exclude all countries that they work in other than the US. I'm a customer located in New Zealand, who was royally fucked over by them, and the text of the letter and site does not exclude New Zealand.

Of course, I can't actually get any money out of them, because you bastards Slashdotted the site as I was half way through filling out the form :) Maybe tomorrow I'll have more luck.

Oh, but the form insists you give it a valid US zip code. That aint gonna happen, considering my country doesn't even use zip codes.

Re:USA != the world

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't bitch about it. This is obviously a US court case, and as such everyone in this context means every American.

Re:USA != the world

[Anonymous Coward]

Politically correct bullshit. Here's a clue: grow a thicker skin, get over yourself already. Where's my :rolleyes: smilie when I need it?

Re:USA != the world

[Anonymous Coward]

So? why should canada matter? You still dump billions of gallons of sewage into your waters like a third world nation.

Re:USA != the world

[cecille]

Yup, neither is Canada. Not to say that I got royally screwed over, but they do seem to like the whole "hit em with the bill twice and see if they notice" scam. After trying for about an hour to find a person to talk to who would refund the second billing, I gave up and just bit the cost. No big deal because it was only like $20, but factor in shipping and the double bill, and that was the most expensive $8 purchase I think I ever made. So huzzah! I might get the $ back. And over here in canada, that $20's worth like twice as much.

Re:USA != the world

[nacturation]

Maybe you should read the settlement. It excludes:

"... anyone who resides in Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Finland, France, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, The Netherlands, or United Kingdom"

Of course, this leaves the following countries which ARE eligible (according to their signup form, but exclude any countries which weren't available before 2004):

United States, Anguilla, Argentine, Australia, Brazil, Canada, Chile, China, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Hong Kong, Iceland, India, Israel, Jamaica, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, Monaco, New Zealand, Norway, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Uruguay, and Venezuela.

Re:USA != the world

[pjt33]

So that's the EU (as was a couple of months ago). Is there a suit pending over here somewhere?

Re:USA != the world

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone knows that Canada is simply America Lite(tm). It's like Homer Simpson said, "Why would I want to leave America to visit America Junior?"

Re:USA != the world

[aussie_a]

but the form insists you give it a valid US zip code. That aint gonna happen, considering my country doesn't even use zip codes.

90210 is a valid US zip code. Does the form say A> The valid US zip code of the place you reside or B> A valid US zip code.

If the correct answer is B you are in! It doesn't say you have to live within the zip code you give them, it just says give them a valid US zip code ;)

This is a joke.

Re:USA != the world

[Anonymous Coward]

"I wish people in the USA wouldn't use the word "everyone" when what they mean is "everyone in the USA"."

You have a good point... how about 'everyone who matters'?

Re:USA != the world

[Facekhan]

I am not entirely sure but I believe I read somewhere that several Western European Countries. UK, France, Germany do not allow class action lawsuits so they would have to be excluded.

Re:USA != the world

[Anonymous Coward]

No it doesn't. It explicitly excludes residents of every country Paypal operates in except for the USA. I wish people in the USA wouldn't use the word "everyone" when what they mean is "everyone in the USA".

This is wrong. It does not specifically exclude Canada (and I assume at least some other countries where Paypal operates).

Re:USA != the world

[Anonymous Coward]

The older I get, the more transparent envy becomes.

Re:USA != the world

[loconet]

Thats what I thought as well. But after testing the form and trying to enter a Canadian postal code (zip code), It says invalid Zip code.

Re:USA != the world

[madatmetoo]

No it doesn't. It explicitly excludes residents of every country Paypal operates in except for the USA. I wish people in the USA wouldn't use the word "everyone" when what they mean is "everyone in the USA".

\Ev"er*y*one`\, n. [OE. everychon.] Everybody resident to the United States of America and its territories.

I don't know. It looks like you have the dictionary against you.

You know, eBay sellers should form a union. That way they could try to coordinate a PayPal strike if there ever is a problem with their services.

$0.35 bleh...

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

If they could just release the $150 on my 3-year-blocked account, that'd be better... Why did I do nothing to recover my money by force (i.e. go to small claims court or hire an attorney)? because it's less expensive to be scammed out of $150 by Paypal than to wrestle that money out of them, and that's why they get away with this. Why people would sign up with a non-FDIC insured bank (because that's what they are in effect), I'll never know. I did and I won't ever again.

Oh well, with any luck, soon I'll only be out of $149.65...

Re:$0.35 bleh...

[TykeClone]

The problem isn't that their not FDIC Insured (the amount of money people keep with them is minimal), it's that they're not regulated as a bank and don't have to follow banking regulations.

Re:$0.35 bleh...

[Digz]

Read the class action terms. You can file a "long form" claim for your damages incurred through payment fraud (which I would think this would fall udner), or a "short form" claim and get $50.

Re:$0.35 bleh...

[elbobo]

For me, it was in the range of $700 they were going to hold forever. I did actually get them to release it, without jumping through the hoops they required. I wrote up an email stating that they were putting me out of business and apartment, and cc'd it to webmaster/postmaster/support/abuse@paypay.com/ebay .com. Oh, I think I cc'd a few others as well.

I never got a single email reply (infact, through the whole dispute I never received a single human written email), but the money did turn up in my bank account a week later.

Re:$0.35 bleh...

[King_TJ]

I went through a big hassle not too long after I started doing lots of eBay sales and accepting payment via PayPal, years ago. They froze my account (apparently because a buyer of one of my items was suspected of cheating some other eBay buyers, but never did find out anything definitive).

I filed a complaint and heard absolutely nothing back from PayPal. After a few weeks though, my account was suddenly un-frozen again and everything was back to normal ever since.

What this taught me was, don't keep money in PayPal that you can't afford to lose. Above all, stop trying to PRETEND THEY'RE A BANK! PayPal considers themselves a facilitator of funds transfers. EG. They're a way for the "average Joe" to accept credit card payments and "click to pay" type Internet transactions.

Once I came to grips with what PayPal really was and wasn't, I was fine with their service. Yeah, their customer service pretty much sucks, but that's true of most companies I deal with nowdays. They usually outsource everything to other countries anyway, so you're lucky if you can even understand the cust. service rep. at all!

Yeah, and?

[oldbayray]

What does this really mean? Will PayPal change their methods of handling transaction disputes and finally stop treating customers as people out to rip them off? Somehow I doubt it, seeing as they 'admitted no legal wrong doing'.

Re:Yeah, and?

[madman101]

The terms of use that tried to restrict (illegally) a consumer's right to appeal, were removed after ebay bought them. Last time I looked at their appeal process, it looked like it complied with Federal Reserve Regulation E, which the old terms of use definately did not.

Re:Please, Please, Please don't let this kill Payp

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Man, Pay Pal is good stuff. I hope this doesn't get them flushed down the old corporate crapper. I know several people who were protected against fraud because they used PayPal. Can I get a witness up in here for Pay Pal?

Can you spell ASTROTURFING?

"European Union residents are excluded."

[svanstrom]

Not if you're a resident of the EU...

Is this why I not that many months ago got an e-mail about my PayPalaccount now being handled by their EU-company instead of the US one???

Re:Payment? You must have experienced a loss...

[vladj]

Not necessarily, here is one of possible reasons:

You requested information from PayPal about an account restriction or limitation or unauthorized transfer and you did not receive a satisfactory response

So if you ever emailed their support about something related to the account and were not satisfied with their response, you are in :)

future lawsuits

[AssFace]

The wording of this says that you are automatically in the lawsuit. But if you want the money, then you have to claim it via an electronic form and then mail in the signature.
If you don't do that, then you don't get the money - but you are still considered to be in the lawsuit - which means that you then waive the right to sue them in the future for related issues.

But if you don't want to be in the lawsuit, then you have to also mail something in.

It also states that the lawyers get at least $3+M for this and that is out of nearly $10M.
I don't know how many people are in it, but the remainder of the money would then be split amongst those people.

So at most it is still under $100 - that isn't enough to pay me off so that I can't ever sue them again - even if it is only in a specific area.

Re:future lawsuits

[Anonymous Coward]

You can still sue them all by yourself.

Of course, PayPal would love for you to believe that they are immune from lawsuits for their fraudulent and illegal activities.

Re:future lawsuits

[Aerk]

The lawsuit applies to incidents that occured between Oct 1, 1999 and Jan 1, 2004. That means that, if in 2005 PayPal seizes all your money, you can still sue them.

I smell profit....

[neilb78]

1) Only allow claims to be submitted via web site 2) /. the web site 3) ???? 4) Profit!!!

Short form Vs Long Form

[Roofus]

you can fill out a short form or a long form to sign up.

I can do either a short form or a long form? That's like saying:
1) I can be the recipient of a swift kick to the nuts
2) or I can have some ice cream.

I wonder which one I want to choose.....

About as useful as a mail in rebate

[Puls4r]

With the amount of the settlement per-person, this feels like a mail-in-rebate. I.E., the amount is so small vs. the hassle (filling out a form) that most people will likely forgo the cost of a cup of coffee so they don't have to fill out anything.

Which means, in the end, that this verdict will mean very very little to paypal. They should give their lawyers a bonus.

Re:About as useful as a mail in rebate

[Anonymous Coward]

>Which means, in the end, that this verdict will mean very very little to paypal. They should give their lawyers a bonus.

Um no. The settlement is for a fixed amount. PayPal loses the same amount of money whether 100 million people submit claims or only 10,000 do.

Also, if you read the settlement, you'll see that there are three forms you can choose to fill out. The long claim, the short claim or the statutory dispute claim.

Of all claims, the latter is easiest, you just fill out a small form and wait and see what you get. The other two claims require you to prove some effect that PayPal's misconduct had on you.

Does this mean alot to PayPal? Of course not! That's why its a _settlement_ (not a verdict), PayPal agreed to these terms instead of going to trial.

Now about the zip-code thing on the forms. Has anyone figured out how to make a claim if you live outside the US?

Does it apply to international cusomers?

[alexo]

Does the settlement apply to international cusomers as well?

Re:Does it apply to international cusomers?

[SlashdotMeNow]

There's a list of excluded countries. Australia is not on that list - Woo! AUD 0.50 for me!

Re:Does it apply to international cusomers?

[RobM9999]

Since you failed to read the settlement itself than you probably wont read this but...

4. HOW DO I KNOW IF I AM PART OF THE SETTLEMENT?
On July 12, 2004, Judge Fogel entered an order granting preliminary approval of the settlement and certifying the following class for purposes of the settlement: All Persons who opened a PayPal account during the period from October 1, 1999 through January 31, 2004. Excluded from the class are any judicial officer to whom the lawsuit is assigned; PayPal and any of its affiliates; any current or former employee, officer, or director of PayPal; anyone who resides in Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Finland, France, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, The Netherlands, or United Kingdom; and all persons who timely and validly request exclusion from the class pursuant to this notice.

Re:Does it apply to international cusomers?

[kevinjamieson]

Although the email suggests that the settlement is only excluded in certain countries, the claim form appears to be US-centric -- it rejected my attempt to put a Canadian province and postal code in place of a state and zip code.

Re:Does it apply to international cusomers?

[grolschie]

The "STATUTORY DAMAGE FUND CLAIM" is US centric. It won't allow anything but US states and phone numbers!

It is *NOT* limited to 35 cents

[brunes69]

That is just the poster ramling about nothing.

The amount you get for filling out the "short form" is $50.

The amount you get for filling out the long form is undetermined. **It all depends on how many people bother to collect**. The judgement was for 9.25 million - 3.4 million for legal leaves 5.85 million for settlements. Unless millions of people apply ( unlikely) you would likely get your $150 back, no problem.

***DO APPLY***

Re:It is *NOT* limited to 35 cents

[yolfer]

According to the Short Form: "In the event that the amount needed to pay all of the Short Form claims exceeds the Short Form Fund, the fund will be divided equally among all the Short Form Claimants."

So you are not guaranteed $50. You will get at most $50, and probably less.

Re:It is *NOT* limited to 35 cents

[Denial of Cervix]

It's not quite clear to me - can I apply for this even if I feel I haven't been directly wronged?

DoC

Money

[RobM9999]

It looks like PayPal is finally putting their .02 cents (per person).

What would you do with 35c?

[Penguinoflight]

Actually, the way paypal works, you wouldn't have to worry about considering a resolution that involves USD, major currencies are accepted as forms of payment by paypal, and only USD is offered in this settlement.

Maybe you should stop feeling so ripped when you can actually enjoy many of the advantages of the US in your own country. All these people ungrateful about non-us options, while they're depending on US money.

Re:What would you do with 35c?

[Anonymous Coward]

All these people ungrateful about non-us options, while they're depending on US money

Looked at the US budget and trade deficits recently? The US is dependant on foreign money - only the denomination is USD, and that's been sliding for a while as well.

Re:What would you do with 35c?

[fuzzybunny]

You're right, bud. Fuck 'em. Oh by the way, Taco, can you please turn off your servers on your way out the door to Canada?

Re:What would you do with 35c?

[amliebsch]

The world doesn't like the US. We'd be better off without you.

Hey, wait a minute...you can't presume to lecture us on behalf of the rest of the entire world.

That's France's job.

Re:What would you do with 35c?

[mrwonton]

The world doesn't like the US. We'd be better off without you.

Well, without the US you wouldn't be reading /. right now, so I think we're better off.

Re:What would you do with 35c?

[Lucky_Norseman]

Well, without the US you wouldn't be reading /. right now, so I think we're better off.

And without the rest of the world, neither would you.
Don't forget: Tim Berners-Lee is an Englishman.

Re:What would you do with 35c?

[mrwonton]

Right, which is why I don't make sweeping statements about how the US would be better without the rest of the world.

Re:What would you do with 35c?

[untaken_name]

The world doesn't like the US. We'd be better off without you.

Okay, since you're obviously digging for heated responses, let me fulfill your need.

Without the US, the rest of the world would:
Be speaking German or Japanese right now
Not be using a computer
Not be driving automobiles
Never have known the jaw-dropping awesomeness that was Mr. Benjamin Franklin
Never have known the concept of working yourself from poverty to riches (in europe there's always some deus ex machina for rags-to-riches stories)
Never have known a place where immigrants from anywhere are valued and respected (okay, not so much anymore, but then at least we had it for a brief moment)
Never have been introduced to rock n' roll, blues, jazz, rap or hip-hop.
Never have allowed women to equal men in common society
Never have allowed the poor to sue the rich

okay, did that satisfy your craving for invective?
I can throw out polemics like rose petals in a romance novel. I'm sure I believe what I said about as much as you believed what you said.

Re:What would you do with 35c?

[Anonymous Coward]

a place where immigrants from anywhere [used to be] valued and respected

You mean, like the ones from Africa you enslaved, robbed, and murdered for a couple hundred years?

Re:What would you do with 35c?

[DAldredge]

If the world hates us so much, why does the world use the NYSE as its benchmark trading system? When the NYSE/Nasdaq/AMEX shut down after 9/11 world wide trading damn near ground to a halt.

Sure looks like you need us.

Re:What would you do with 35c?

[Anonymous Coward]

Without the US, the rest of the world would:
Be speaking German or Japanese right now

Well, you may have lent a hand, but lets face it- you sat on your fat asses for a couple of years then came along and sat in the UK for a couple more while the Ruskies stopped Hitler, THEN you jumped in too claim victory. Thanks a lot.

Not be using a computer

Arguably invented in the UK, plus you've got the whole Windows debacle to answer for.

Not be driving automobiles

Karl Benz you dumbass. Really, its like shooting fish in a barrel.

Never have known the jaw-dropping awesomeness that was Mr. Benjamin Franklin

The guy who flew kites in the rain?

Never have known the concept of working yourself from poverty to riches (in europe there's always some deus ex machina for rags-to-riches stories)

We created the industrial revolution, capitalism and entrepreneurialism whilst you were all eating turkey with the Indians.

Never have known a place where immigrants from anywhere are valued and respected (okay, not so much anymore, but then at least we had it for a brief moment)

So in what year did your country abolish the slave trade? Get rid of apartheid? Because I can tell you now it was long time after everyone else.

Never have been introduced to rock n' roll, blues, jazz, rap or hip-hop.

For once you're right. But I for one wouldn't be too proud about musical styles created by slaves and subjegated underclasses.

Never have allowed women to equal men in common society

See there you go again with that American habit of assuming that because you salute your flag every morning (what's with that - are you scared you'll forget where you live?) that you invented freedom. Read up on women's sufferage before you make statements like that -although I'll give you a clue. It was 1920 before women could generally vote in the USA - not exactly radical.

Never have allowed the poor to sue the rich

Riiight. The trouble with America is you just can't get that 'new country' chip off your shoulders.

Re:What would you do with 35c?

[lundbergaj]

It wasn't just trading that ground to a halt. A great many things ground to a halt. They were probably waiting to see if Bush would nuke something.

Re:What would you do with 35c?

[DAldredge]

No shit? That would explain why I didn't see any flights out of DFW right after that happened.

Re:What would you do with 35c?

[StalinsNotDead]

Without the US, the rest of the world would:
Be speaking German or Japanese right now
Well, you may have lent a hand, but lets face it- you sat on your fat asses for a couple of years then came along and sat in the UK for a couple more while the Ruskies stopped Hitler, THEN you jumped in too claim victory. Thanks a lot.
America may have "lent a hand" but it was a pretty important hand. First America didn't sit on its fat ass, it was neutral, while giving material aid to the Allies. It wasn't until a sneak attack that America became officially involved. Without the material aid provided before their involvement in Europe, Britain would have been hard pressed to keep its air-force off the ground. Without the man power provided by America in both theaters of the conflict, the Germans could have easily closed the Western Front (not necessarily conquering and invading Britain, but at least get it out of the war. And the French military was in no shape to kick the Krauts out of Paris) to focus on the Soviet Union. (Except for having to bail out Italy in North Africa) Britain was nearing defeat as manufacturing ability was not up to keeping everything flying and mounting an invasion of Continental Europe. America's manufacturing base was still intact and provided much in the way of assistance.
Russia, on the other hand, was getting pounded pretty badly. If it weren't for the invasion of Normandy (a high percentage of which were American soldiers), the Germans would have focused on Russia. The only thing the Russians had for them was enough territory to stall the Germans by giving up land, stretching the German supply lines, and a casual disregard for the lives of their soldiers, allowing human waves (a large part of which were unarmed) to stall the invasion.
That's all not even discussing the Pacific theater.
Not be using a computer
Arguably invented in the UK, plus you've got the whole Windows debacle to answer for.
Yes, arguably invented in the UK. The development of the internet however was greatly assisted by the American military. I'm not saying invented in the US, but the internet would arguably be responsible for the internet's existence. Without the internet a large percentage of people would be without a computer unless they had the absolute need to own one. Companies in the US (and elsewhere) manufactured these machine, allowing them to be available and affordable to the general public.
Not be driving automobiles
Karl Benz you dumbass[sic]. Really, its like shooting fish in a barrel.
True. Karl Benz may have invented the car. But it was Henry Ford who made them affordable. Without the theory of the assembly line, automobiles would not be a readily available to the lower and middle classes. Thus, it could be said that without America, you would not be driving automobiles, but watching the wealthy upper class driving them.
Never have known the jaw-dropping awesomeness that was Mr. Benjamin Franklin
The guy who flew kites in the rain?
Yes, the man did in fact fly kites in the rain; but, in doing so discovered many things about the nature of electricity. His life was full of other accomplishments, but I won't post the details. Here's a biography for you as your knowledge of him may be somewhat lacking. That's like saying about Hitler (not comparing these two historical figures) "you mean that guy that failed to get into art school", or Winston Churchill "that guy that got hit by a taxi", or Gandhi "that thin tan guy from India who didn't like the British"
Never have known a place where immigrants from anywhere are valued and respected (okay, not so much anymore, but then at least we had it for a brief moment)
So in what year did your country abolish the slave trade? Get rid of apartheid? Because I can tell you now it was long time after everyone else.
The slave trade was illegalized in 1820, but slaves were still se

Re:What would you do with 35c?

[untaken_name]

Nice troll. You were aware that African slaves were sold into slavery by other Africans, weren't you? Or that Irish slaves were also popular? Or that Irish slaves were more likely to have been kidnapped by raiders than African ones? Certainly you were. You would also be aware that slavery still exists, but not in America, right? Or that America didn't run a fleet of slave ships; those were British and Dutch, mostly. Perhaps you're just trolling.

Re:What would you do with 35c?

[untaken_name]

first of all, you are obviously stupid. The post I replied to was looking for heated answers, not truthful ones. You, being a total dipshit, didn't understand that when I said I was giving the poster what he/she wanted, it didn't mean I was responding rationally because that wasn't what was desired.
Since you decided to throw your hand in, perhaps you could tell me the name of the Russian detachment that took Iwo Jima. Or Guadalcanal. Perhaps you'd enlighten me as to the non-American OS that put PCs into every house. It wasn't Linux, I'll tell you that. As flawed as Windows is, to deny Microsoft's role in making PCs ubiquitous is willful ignorance. Perhaps you would remember that Henry Ford created the assembly line, turning automobiles from a curiosity into a phenomenon. What exactly is your criticism of Mr. Franklin? That he was willing to sacrifice his body for the pursuit of knowledge? That he understood electricity before most other people? That he was an iconoclast? Really, you failed to adress this point. You created capitalism? Hah. Yes, my lord, I will do whatever you say, my lord. You were bowing to monarchs whilst criminalizing entrepaneurs and capitalists. The concept of rising above one's station is not one most Europeans contemplate, even today. Yet in America, people born into abject poverty become multi-millionaires every day. Next. We were the last to end apartheid? You must not have heard of South Africa. Either that, or you don't consider it important because it contradicts your assertion. What about Darfur? Why wouldn't you be proud of musical styles that can start with a people oppressed and become so mainstream that they are among the most popular styles of music in the entire world? I'm sorry, when was the last time big band music or madrigals took the top spot in any international music ranking? Mozart is good, but I would posit that more people worldwide know who Nelly is. You may think it's sad, but you can't deny the power of such music. Why wouldn't we be proud? I'm not talking about women voting. I didn't say anything about women voting. I was talking about women being equal. Yes, there have been matriarchal societies in the past. However, there have been (and continue to be) far more patriarchal societies. Ours was the first in recent memory to posit the idea that women can do any job men can do. That idea did not come from Europe. As far as 'chips on shoulders,' I was feeding a troll, with what he wanted to hear. You're the one who felt the need to reply. I wasn't being serious, but you decided you needed to 'correct' me. Sure sounds like I'm the one with the chip, doesn't it? Idiot.

Re:What would you do with 35c?

[untaken_name]

Kudos, sir. You said it much better than I. Respect.

My Dear Pal

[sridhar.g]

PayPal...? should not leave/change meaning for Pal(Friend).
If you leave this, what ever millions today with you, suddenly no one will be. take care...

$0.35

[loconet]

"I'm so ready to receive my check for $0.35US"

Think again ..... ;)

"The claims administrator will not issue checks for less than $1.00. Such amounts will instead be reallocated to those claimants who are entitled to receive distributions."

Re:$0.35

[Anonymous Coward]

But they'll stick the $ in your paypal account ;-).

Heck, I say "screw Paypal!" Even if it's $0.35 per customer, numerous $9 million settlements add up. PLUS, you don't have to join the class action - If you've been wronged by PayPal (as many of us have), feel free to go after them yourself.

Money allocation

[Anonymous Coward]

The money is divded up into different funds. Actually, the wording is anyone with some form of damages has to fill out a special request form, the long or short version of the "dispute resolution claimant." If verified, they'll receive funds from a $4.3 million account and the amount you receive depends on your damages. For those users that did not have damages (I'm sure by far the majority) they're entitled to splitting $1 million from the statuatory damages fund.

The class includes:

[MisterLawyer]

"[Eligible members of the class are:] All Persons who opened a PayPal account during the period from October 1, 1999 through January 31, 2004.
Excluded from the class are [...] anyone who resides in Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Finland, France, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, The Netherlands, or United Kingdom[...]
Thus, if you opened a PayPal account between October 1, 1999 and January 31, 2004, and are not one of the excluded persons listed above, you are a member of the class."

I was living in Chicago when I opened two paypal accounts around 2000 (one for me, one for my business, an online eBookseller), but now I'm living in Germany, and the business is still physically based in Springfield, Illinois, although I own half of it and do most of the work for it.

I wonder if I and/or my business still qualify as members of the class.

Re:The class includes:

[borg007]

All you have to do is start e-mailing people stating that you have a settlement coming to you and you need an agent to collect the money in the US. Promise them some of the money and ............. Oh, wait. Maybe this doesn't works in Germany, but the 419 scam has raised $5 billion so far http://home.rica.net/alphae/419coal/ . If it works, you could always sell the franchise rights. Good luck.

What happens if you closed your account?

[arock99]

I had problems with them a while ago which ended up wrongfully costing me money. Maybe i should have sued them but instead closed my account. I originally opened my account between the dates mentioned. You can bet I want the money even if its 35 cents out of principle.

Re:What happens if you closed your account?

[Anonymous Coward]

This happened to me too but I reopened an account between the dates so I'm going to file a claim anyways.

Re:Please, Please, Please don't let this kill Payp

[Leviathant]

Paypal saved my ass when some dude from the Philipines ordered a notebook PC and a modded Playstation using my account -- while my network is ironclad at home, it turns out that the one at work... not so much. Never doing anything like that at work ever again. I could have been out $2000+ because of fraud, but they fought the good fight.

On the other hand, back in 2002 they beamed $172 into nowhere and never returned the money, so some of this lawsuit does kinda ring true. The crap I had to go through was more than I should have, and I still didn't get my money back. Here's to filling out another form and hoping to see that cash.

Re:Please, Please, Please don't let this kill Payp

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Some people actually like Paypal. Maybe you'd like to accuse iPod lovers of astroturfing? Linksys / Cisco lovers? Or is astroturfing reserved for groups on slashdot whose opinion are a minority? There's a lot of brand loyalty on slashdot, despite the air of anti-corporatism.

This page raises some good possible issues about at least one anti-paypal site, and shows that some claims against paypal payments are also true of many other forms of payment:

Adzooks: Paypal ain't my buddy

Now waiting

[Moo Moo Cow of Death]

Now I'm just waiting for them to fess up that they can and do keep track of their transactions so people who sell virtual items from video games can make a living without worrying half as much about young immature scammers :)

Did you not read the article?

[diogenes57]

Everyone is entitled to statutory damages:

"The plan of allocation designates $1 million of the Net Settlement Fund to a "Statutory Damage Fund," to be distributed equally among all Fund Claimants who are not Dispute Resolution Claimants."

If you want to claim these damages, you must mail them a letter with your signature. So I suggest you don't bother as the amount of the stamp will likely be greater than the amount of the settlement damages paid.

Meh

[KiloWatts]

In my opinion, it's great that they plan to shell out 9 million dollars in order to "just forget it and move on", but it comes nowhere close to the damages and losses acquired by the thousands of people who have had serious issues with them. They still have the right to freeze your account, they still have the right to keep your money at their own discretion, and they still have the right to take it out of your ass if someone else screws you with a bad card. As far as I can tell, the only thing they're agreeing to change is how they handle disputes. Meh. Something's gotta be done about online-payment companies. A simple payoff accomplishes nothing.

Re:Meh

[wizkid]

Yep, this is the proverbial drop in the bucket. Remember that they're not a bank, so they can fuck you any way they want to. If you're running a business utilizing PayPal, remember to keep your balance as close to $0.00 as possible. They look for reasons to freeze your account. When they freeze your account, the only way to get your money back is to file charges, after the 180 day waiting period. I suspect that the court would ignore the 180 day waiting period. The laws need to change, so outfits like this have to follow banking rules. They did this in Europe. Unfortunately, there's to much graft (AKA lobbyist feeding congressmen green stuff) to make a change like this in the US.

I used to like ebay. Now I won't have anything to do with them.

Re:Meh

[smkndrkn]

And you have the right to be informed and use another service.

Re:Meh

[fishbowl]

"Remember that they're not a bank, so they can fuck you any way they want to. "

You're suggesting that merely "not being a bank"
excuses one from the rule of law. I don't think it's that simple.

I got my twenty

[poptones]

They did the same thing to me. I had an account cancelled that was "verified" by them and they immediately froze my twenty bucks in the account. Keep in mind I had done nothing wrong nor had anyone with whom I had transactions - they just said "you can't cancel that account without providing us another" and bam, that was it.

After being treated this way I sure as hell wasn't about to give them "verified" access to ANOTHER account so I figured the twenty bucks long lost and chalked it up to experience. About a year ago I found a check in the mailbox for twenty bucks plus interest for the two years or so they had it "froze." Don't know why they just decided to givc it up, they sent me no notice in spite of the fact they still have my address and email me regularly about the account.

Since they did this I went back to using them for ebay transactions, but all they get is my cc number and the account will remain "unverified" until I have shoveled through it my limit - at which time I'll cancel it and start another, since there's just no way in hell I'm going to trust them with another "verified" acount.

Re:I got my twenty

[Yewbert]

Since they did this I went back to using them for ebay transactions, but all they get is my cc number and the account will remain "unverified" until I have shoveled through it my limit

Do you know what the limit IS on unverified accounts? Maybe I've overlooked some obvious mention of it, but I only recently found out that there even IS an overall limit on unverified accounts, and I apparently haven't yet exceeded it in the 5+ years I've been using PP; I looked around a bit in their FAQ and related documentation, but haven't yet found the limit specified.

I have to pay for my reimbursement???

[Mr. Cancelled]

I too got this email this morning, and was scanning it as I got ready for work.

The email indicated something to the effect of if I wanted a check from them for the amount I'm entitled to, I'd be charged $1.00 from my account. This immediately made me wonder just what the settlement amount would be.

So is the $.35 listed on front page serious or not? I didn't see a dollar amount listed in the email, and if it's really only 35 cents (very possible! Not a lot of money for the individual in class action suits), that would mean that I'll be losing 65 cents on this deal.

Can someone clarify if this is accurate?

Re:I have to pay for my reimbursement???

[l4m3z0r]

Perhaps if you RTF Short Form which is provided as a link in the slasdot posting you would notice that you get a payback of $50, they charge you a dollar if you want that mailed in checkform. Its nice that everyone sees 0.35 and pisses and moans about it without doing a paltry amount of research(clicking on the links provided for your convenience).

Are you serious?

[diogenes57]

Do you think $9.2 million can kill or even seriously hurt Paypal? Didn't eBay buy Paypal for $1.5B? Seriously, $9.2 million is much less than $1 per customer, considering most eBay users are also Paypal customers.

I hope you read the fine print

[bigjnsa500]

I hope you guys/gals read the fine print. The default payment method is to pay to your PayPal account! If you're account is restricted, remember to get it sent by check. But they rape you by charging you a $1 for a printed check.

If all you're getting back is $0.35 and you want a check, do you OWE them money?

Re:I hope you read the fine print

[AragornSonOfArathorn]

RTFFPA (RTF Fine Print Again). They will not issue checks for less than $1.00.

Office space

[ZeroExistenZ]

eBay now rounds a bill of $30.78 up to $30.80. Despite the fact that the system tacks on only a few cents to each transaction, the customers said the additional charges add up over time.

Sounds familiar

Re:Office space

[Anonymous Coward]

indeed

I created a PayPal account.....

[Conspiracy_Of_Doves]

But I never put any money in it or used it in any way.

What does this mean for me?

Re:I created a PayPal account.....

[Anonymous Coward]

It means you're not eligble.

You people are just as greedy as PayPal here..

Re:I created a PayPal account.....

[Anonymous Coward]

But I never put any money in it or used it in any way. What does this mean for me?

Translation: Wyah, wyah, I'm too lazy to read for myself.

Re:Payment? You must have experienced a loss...

[elbobo]

Uhh, no. To receive compensation you only need to have opened an account with Paypal during the specified dates (~1999 - 2004).

Even if you want to do the long form, and apply for a bigger piece of the pie, you only have to show that they didn't deal appropriately with the resolution of an issue.

Jeffrey Resnick talking with Lawyer

[MooFu]

Jeffrey Resnick: Oh sweet, we won? Lawyer: Yes Jeff: How much do I get? Lawyer: $50 Jeff: And how much did you get? Lawyer: $3.4 mil Jeff: .............uhm?

Re:That much eh?

[strictnein]

And where are they putting these funds by default?

Payment will be made to your PayPal account. If you do not have a current, unrestricted PayPal account or prefer to receive a check, please check the box below

How the settlement will work...

[adzoox]

You are going to get your percentage of the 9.5 million based on the amount of claims made and the amount you claim and can legally prove was stolen from due to neglect on paypal's part.

For instance I had a loss of $80 + over $100 in collection costs/subpoenas in 2002. If there are claims for OVER 9.5 million, the claims will start to be divided into the percent that you made it up to 9.5 million.

I am hoping that I will get at least $100.

The 35 cents was a stupid quip the editor made.

Re:How the settlement will work...

[auburnate]

Could you elaborate on your losses? I'm trying to understand how my wife and I can go about this too. Her credit card expired causing paypal to lock her out of her account ... but does that translate into actual damages? Nate

Re:How the settlement will work...

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the link I posted in the addendum - it will detail my expeirience.

I have spoken this over with my attorney - he explained what i explained in the parent post

Re:Please, Please, Please don't let this kill Payp

[NineNine]

I've known many, many people who were royally fucked by PayPal, so I have to disagree. You're talking about a company that acts like a bank, but is not regulated like a bank. You're talking about a company that can arbitrarily freeze assets with no accountability. In my mind, PayPal is a big fraud, and I would never give them a dime. If you want to buy something, and you want protection, use your credit card: that's *real* buyer's fraud protection. It's mandated by federal law.

There will be fraud over the fraud claims too

[adzoox]

as an addendum - if you got a chargeback from your credit card (which the majority do - even though Paypal says you can't) you don't qualify

There will be a lot of fraudulent claims where people will try to get double - they will have already been reimbursed but they will try to seek reimbursement from this settlement too.

I did a story on paypal payback fraud on my website.

not free money

[yohan1701]

you still need to have a reason to file a claim.

You can make a Short Form Claim if, prior to February 1, 2004, PayPal caused you to lose money because of any of the following:

• You experienced an unauthorized or incorrect electronic transfer to or from your PayPal account;
• Your PayPal account was improperly restricted or access was improperly limited;
• You requested information from PayPal about an account restriction or limitation or unauthorized transfer and you did not receive a satisfactory response; and/or
• You experienced or reported an unsatisfactory result from a dispute with PayPal involving a chargeback, a refund, a buyer complaint, or PayPal's Seller Protection Policy, Buyer Complaint Process and/or Buyer Protection Policy.

Yikes!

[Mark_in_Brazil]

The beginning of that letter looks like a 419 e-mail.

Dear [Your Name],

IF YOU OPENED A PAYPAL ACCOUNT BETWEEN OCTOBER 1999 AND JANUARY 2004, YOU MAY BE ENTITLED TO A PAYMENT FROM A CLASS ACTION SETTLEMENT.

PLEASE READ THIS NOTICE CAREFULLY.

I just imagined it continuing a bit differently...

My name is Joe Smith. I work for the United States District Court, San Jose division. A major legal settlement has left the sum of US$9.2M (NINE MILLION TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND US DOLLARS) in an account belonging to a company here. Since I work for the court, I cannot legally access this money. If you simply fill in your PayPal information on this page, I can begin the process of transferring the money out of the "dead" account to your PayPal account. I think it is fair to leave 30% of the amount for covering administrative fees, taxes, and any other expenses that may accrue. For your help in transferring this money, you will receive 0.0054 percent of the money in the "dead account"

And so on...

--Mark

to determine when you signed up for a PP account

[gmr2048]

Log into your paypal account. In the My Account/Overview section, look for your Name, Email and Status, click on the little number in parentheses next to status (looks like this):

Status: Verified (23)

That will give you your member info box with your sign up date.

-gary

Amazing

[The AtomicPunk]

The lawyers get $3.3M. Wow. Where do I sign up to be a class action ambulance chaser? :)

Re:Amazing

[leadsling]

Ask John Edwards. He can tell you how!

Re:Amazing

[RealBeanDip]

> Where do I sign up to be a class action
> ambulance chaser?

Law school... duh?

Re:Amazing

[RevAaron]

And then, after that, you can use Bush's tactic of getting investment money that is wasted away. Not to mention plenty of free money for the family through Savings and Loan scams! Man, I sure wish I had gotten in on that, I'd be $50 million richer. Then, go the Cheney route and over charge taxpayers for your company's services- over and over and over!

Re:Amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

Work your ass off as an undergraduate in subjects like history, economics, math, philosophy, and symbolic logic. While doing this, be involved in several humanitarian volunteer groups or services. Excelling in music and/or sports is a nice addition too. After school, travel the world with volunteers for a year or two. Return and ace the LSATs, getting a score in the mid 170's. Apply to the top 10 law schools, most of which have annual tuition over $30,000. Spend the three most grueling years of your life reading and writing and paying strict attention to every little detail concerning case law and precedent. Finally, pass the bar in your state and get hired by a firm, or start your own. Reap the rewards of your diligent efforts while people who threw their lives away complain about you on web sites like Slashdot. Retire with a beautiful wife, smart children, and peaceful days in your East cost estate.

Re:Amazing

[Chilltowner]

I highly recommend people read "A Civil Action" (versus seeing the movie). It's a non-fiction account of a environmental case in Woburn, Massachusetts, where left-behind waste caused significant cancers in local residents. The suit was settled, and the payoff to families was smaller than they'd hoped for or needed. The law firm got quite a lot of the money. BUT the firm still ran at a loss and had to close. Why? Plaintiff lawyers fight an incredible uphill battle when they're up against large corporate defendents. The costs of running a suit like that are enormous. Read the book to see where the money goes and just how hard it is to make a class action suit work.

Re:Amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

the guy on TV that channels dead people?

Re:Amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the funniest thing I've ever read on slashdot.

Which way to swing?

[La_Boca]

Is it smarter to apply and collect whatever money you may (if you cannot prove damages), or to exclude yourself for the future if something bad DOES, indeed, happen to your account (and your money). I would try to exclude myself personally seeing that if 2 million people apply for their part of the settlement, i'd only get about $0.50.

In other news

[EmagGeek]

Paypal to move it's corporate headquarters to Nigeria, where it won't be encumbered by silly ethics rules. Paypal's new corporate headquarters will be located at 419 Greedyombo Rd, Stealagreenback, Nigeria.

PayPalSucks.com

[umrgregg]

The folks over at PayPalSucks.com have been fighting the shady practices of PayPal since its inception. It's a great source of information and a good browse for everyone who has accounts with PP. Just keept the bias in mind ;) Here's a link to their discussion forum regarding the settlement. Very informative.

Well, sorta.

[Chmcginn]

The short form limits your claim to $50 max, or whatever percentage if there is more than about 90,000 people filling it out. The long form, however, will allow you to get more... again, assuming that a small enough number of people sign up.

The money

[not_a_product_id]

apparently, it's to do with the amount of money you get

not as easy a choice as you think...

[admdrew]

What flavor is the ice cream?

Insightful my ass

[CarrionBird]

It's a US court case, with a US company, covered on a US website. Would you like some cheese with that whine?

Re:Insightful my ass

[JaredOfEuropa]

It's a US court case, with a US company, covered on a US website.

The company may be US-based, but they have customers in many other countries. These customers have just as much been subject to the issues addressed in this court case. And even though this is a US court case, customers from Australia, New Zealand and some other countries are not excluded from filing a claim. It's only EC residents who are excluded (I wonder why...?)

The parent poster was right to take issue with the word 'everyone'.

Re:Insightful my ass

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? If I say 'everyone loves pie' would you object? Of course, not every single person who exists likes pie, so I should then be barred from saying 'everyone likes pie?'
How about this: everyone shut the fuck up about being offended by stupid shit that shouldn't cause anyone with an ounce of self-worth a second of discomfort. Bitchy bitchy bitchy bitch, that's all slashdot is anymore.

Re:Insightful my ass

[I8TheWorm]

The difference is those people outside the US are subject to a different set of laws. If PayPal had a problem with an EU citizen, they would have to file outside of the US under those laws.

This is the reason that non-US citizens are not included in the class action suit. With a win on this case, it would not be difficult to find a pro-bono attorney to handle the same case but with non-US citizens.

Re:Insightful my ass

[CarrionBird]

It was one word in a short blurb about something that occured in the US. The parent poster was just looking for something to be offended at.

Finally

[dtfinch]

What PayPal does is whenever they have a dispute with a user who has a dynamic ip address, every single user who winds up with that ip and logs in gets their account automatically suspended and any money in it stolen by PayPal. It hasn't happened to me so I won't participate in the lawsuit but I've seen it happen affecting people I know and work with. Paypal takes their money and tells them to go * themselves, pointing to a 20 page agreement that was shown in the 5 line scrolling text area which they clicked agree to where they waive their right to sue in exchange for a binding arbitration process whereby whatever PayPal says goes.

Missing option

[The Wooden Badger]

USA IS the world, you insensitive clod!

Oh, wait, you mean this isn't another slashdot poll?

canadians

[Anonymous Coward]

Current state is invalid
Current zip is invalid

guess i cant join this lawsuit, even though paypal fscked me also.

$0.35 it is....

[JustinHoMi]

I'm so ready to receive my check for $0.35US

Well now that you put it on /. it WILL be $0.35! THANKS.

Re:not free money

[Anonymous Coward]

So if you couldn't log in one day, then you can qualify. That would be access improperly limited (even if maybe it was excessive network traffic.)

Pretty much it is free money.

To claim your $0.35 ...

[PetoskeyGuy]

Please send a self-addressed stamped envelope...

Re:Payment? You must have experienced a loss...

[KrisHolland]

"So if you ever emailed their support about something related to the account and were not satisfied with their response, you are in :)"

You forgot to add: AND if you are American you are in.

Paypal fucked over everyone all over the world, but it is good that at least some people geting their money back :).

Heaven forbid someone had a good PayPal expierence

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to Slashdot where dissent and opposing opinion are considered Trolls or "Astroturfing".

Do not hold an opposing opinion. Here in 1984, deviance from the Groupthink will result in Re-Education. Thank you.

Paypal: Suit doesn't surprise me one bit....

[pgnas]

What surprises me is that there are not more suits against Paypal, I will be surprised that my account isn't frozen for my comments!

Paypal continually uses this hands off approach to it's customers when there are problems. Stating that they are not a bank is the absolute beauty of this goldmine, it is the ultimate out, however people do have real money in some of these accounts(like a bank) and when there is a problem, it needs to be addressed immediately and resolved.(like most banks). Paypal simply says, "We are not a bank, We are a facilitator of payments"

While PayPal has indicated there are problems with it's customer support/services, it is clear that little is done to fix these problems.

It's a tough game to play, and there is a lot at stake for people, there are a number of cases where Paypal closed accounts without warning on some people who relied on this services. Their policies and processes for dealing with problems is ridiculous. (indicated in the lawsuit)

Would I like to see them go? Absolutely not. Would I like to see them take a little more responsibility? Absolutely

They have no problems taking the money...

Re:Paypal: Suit doesn't surprise me one bit....

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely! They want to POLICE the funds and have the RIGHT TO HOLD ONTO THEM AND PLAY GAMES WITH THE FUNDS AND ULTIMATELY DO GET INVOLVED WITH HOLDING FUNDS FOR SUPPOSEDLY "SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY" -- BUT THEN THEY CLAIM THEY DON'T WANT TO AND CAN'T GET INVOLVED WHEN THERE ARE PROBLEMS ON THE BUYER AND SELLER END !! If they want to be just the "neutral party that takes and disburses funds, then what RIGHT do they have to even police the funds and freeze accounts and hold peoples money for six straight months without PROPER INVESTIGATION AND RESOLUTION? They FREEZE ALL THE ACCOUNT MONEY for ONE PROBLEM THAT THEY SUSPECT -- AND DON'T HAVE TIMELY RESOLUTION FOR THAT! Imagine renting a storefront and the landlord has the right to lock you out of your store for six months so that you can't do business because one of your customers used a stolen credit card, and they freeze your whole store operations and MONEY because they are "afraid" that the ONE CUSTOMER may not pay you for the item ONLY BECAUSE THEY'RE CLAIMING THAT THEY'RE AFRAID YOU CAN'T PAY YOUR RENT IF THAT CUSTOMER DOESN'T PAY YOU AND SOME OF YOUR OTHER CUSTOMERS MAY WANT THEIR MONEY BACK, LEAVING YOU NO WAY TO PAY THEM BACK SO THEY HOLD YOUR BUSINESS ACCOUNT BANK FUNDS FOR AWHILE TO MAKE SURE ALL YOUR CUSTOMERS ARE HAPPY AND THEN THEY ARE MORE SURE YOU CAN PAY THE RENT !! THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE AND WHAT THEY HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH FOR YEARS !!!!!

Re:Paypal: Suit doesn't surprise me one bit....

[pgnas]

Here! Here! This is what I was trying to say and couldn't find the exact words. The simple fact is that is this, reiterating your point, PayPal claims to be a simple go-between for buyer and seller, they want nothing else to do with the transaction, other than the cut.

When real problems occur, they arbitrarily without further investigation or without any facts as to what the problem actually is freeze the accounts of all parties involved without any real answer as to when they will be reactivated. This does solve the problem, for them and only them.

Once the honest, paying customer realizes that this has happened, and possibly has transactions in limbo, they attempt to contact them only to be stonewalled with a lame customer service process. When confronted by these situations, they simply say, "We are not a bank and we need to protect our system"

why?

They are the only guy on the block

Again, do they need to go away? No. Do they need to stand by their honest, paying customers? YES.

Word to the wise...

[Anonymous Coward]

whenever you receive money in your paypal account, immediately withdraw it. I do a lot of eBaying and I check it every night and withdraw any cash in the account. They can't steal what isn't there.

Re:Word to the wise...

[Anonymous Coward]

They can and will reach into your supporting bank account and/or credit lines to get anything that they want from you.

You also have to Snail mail a form in.

[cyrax777]

atleast it poped up a PDF with my claim info and is telling me to sign it and snail mail it in.

Re:Please, Please, Please don't let this kill Payp

[OS24Ever]

Yes...it's that green stuff that goes on football fields. What does that have to do with PayPal?

Re:Please, Please, Please don't let this kill Payp

[Dust'-_-'Worm]

Nah, dont worry I love pay pal too and i know it will reamin on the market. Why? Because it is owned by ebay and as long as Ebay charge u double fees (for ebay transaction and for PayPal as well) Paypal will remain on the market forever. :)

Re:Payment? You must have experienced a loss...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a Canuck and I'm in. Yay me! $50 USD... wow, thanks for the $1,287 CAD, PayPal!!

Re:not free money

[TobyWong]

You need to read it again. In particular the section regarding "Statutory Damage Fund Claimants".

Email Glitch?

[phishst1k]

I went to the "long form" and apparently it does not like my ISP's email (roadrunner) MYNAME@twcny.rr.com So I am unable to submit the form...unfortunatly that is the email I have associated with paypal.

we all got it - move on, nothing to see here.

[Anonymous Coward]

Also RTFP (read the fine print). You can't just sign up, you have to have suffered damages.

One or more of the following accurately describes what happened to me: PayPal caused me to suffer damages as a direct result of (a) an unauthorized or incorrect electronic fund transfer to or from my PayPal account; (b) an improper restriction or limitation of my PayPal account; (c) an unsatisfactory response to a request for information from PayPal about an unauthorized or incorrect transfer or improper limitation or restriction; and/or (d) a dispute with PayPal involving a chargeback, a refund, a buyer complaint, or PayPal's Seller Protection Policy, Buyer Complaint Process and/or Buyer Protection Policy;

Re:Please, Please, Please don't let this kill Payp

[atrizzah]

What's all this nonsense about double fees? It's not like anyone's forcing you to take payments through PayPal. I think paying auction fees and transactions fees makes plenty of sense, as opposed to say, trusting some random check someone sends me.

Re:to determine when you signed up for a PP accoun

[Yewbert]

If your account isn't verified, go to the All Activity view in your account, and search on all transactions back to an arbitrarily early date. You can at least see the date of your first transaction, and if it was fairly early, there'll be a "Bonus | From | New Account" transaction in the amount of $5.00, from when they were still giving the $5 bonus for opening an account. Mine was apparently opened 3-17-2000, though I'd've sworn it was earlier than that. But hey, I'm in the period specified for the settlement.

Don't Slashdot the money!

[daemonc]

"If you make a timely, valid claim using the Short Claim Form, you will receive a payment of $50, unless the amount needed to pay all of the Short Form claims exceeds the Short Form Fund. In that case, the Short Form Fund will be divided equally among all Short Form Claimants."

Damn you, Slashdot Effect! Now the settlement really will be $0.35 per person...

Lawyers win....again.

[andy55]

As a result, PayPal said it would pay a total of $9.25 million to settle the federal class-action suit, $3.4 million of which would go to paying its customers' legal fees.

Once again, the only real winners are the lawyers, skimming off the top, the only benefactors of a situation in which neither the defendant or the plaintiff win (assuming that you agree that an award of less than $1 isn't a "win" for a single person's perspective).

Re:Lawyers win....again.

[ywl]

Not necessarily. If PayPal improved their business practice after this Lawsuit, I guess it'd be a big win for the customers and consumers.

Actually, your wrong.

[Bryan Gividen]

PayPal is going to loose the same amount of cash no matter what. The fewer people who sign up for this "rebate," the more money the ones who do sign up, get. That's the nature of a class action lawsuit. So if only 4 people sign up for this thing, each is going to get around 1.5 million dollars. Highly unlikely, but possible. Now, it's possible that say 60,000 people sign up for it and receive about 100 dollars back.

Re:to determine when you signed up for a PP accoun

[Anonymous Coward]

Mine just says "Status: Verified" with no number after it. Anyone know how to find my sign up date some other way? I can't seem to find it.

Re:Please, Please, Please don't let this kill Payp

[RevAaron]

I'm with you on this one. PayPal is convenient as hell. I've had some problems with their customer service, but no worse than I've had dealing with "reputable" firms like MBNA. I'm happy to have the service.

What if your not in the US? (Canada, for example!?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been screwed out of money by paypal, but because I'm not from the US I can't fill out the form on the class action lawsuit website (doesn't accept non-american states or postal codes)

What's the deal with that?

Suspicious

[brj]

Does anyone else find it strange that the claim forms ask for your PayPal password and credit card number?

Re:Suspicious

[Anonymous Coward]

yes i do. sounds like phishing via greed.

And how much do the attorneys get paid?

[acadiel]

(Warning: Rant ahead)

Let's see. $3,332,500 + $135,000 out of $9,250,000 = $3,467,500 or 36% of the settlement fee is going directly to the laywer's pocket.

(Sarcasm)Do you think the law firm filed this just to get almost 3.5 million out of Paypal?(/Sarcasm) No way in hell that this cost them $3.5 million to litigate. Guess what, this gets passed on to the customers in the form of higher fees and stuff eventually.

10. HOW WILL THE LAWYERS FOR THE CLASS BE PAID? >From the inception of the litigation in early 2002 to the present, Class Counsel have not received any payment for their services in prosecuting the case, nor have they been reimbursed for any out-of-pocket expenses. If the Court approves the proposed settlement, Class Counsel will make a motion to the Court for an award of attorneys' fees of up to $3,332,500 and reimbursement of expenses of up to $135,000, to be paid from the $9.25 million settlement fund. Class Counsel will also seek reimbursement from the settlement fund on behalf of certain of the named plaintiffs in the litigation for reimbursement of their expenses related to their service as class representatives in the litigation, in an aggregate amount not to exceed $15,000. The motion will be heard at the settlement hearing described below in Section 11.

Re:to determine when you signed up for a PP accoun

[JLSigman]

THANKS! I went looking everywhere and could not find that info. I don't think I qualify (I haven't had enough money in that account to lose anything), but it's good to know.

its not USD that is at debate here...

[fullmetal55]

its law... a US class action lawsuit generally doesn't allow "foreigners" to claim. US law has no jurisdiction in other countries. that doesn't mean the same laws don't exist in other countries, trust me I would have been in on a few class action lawsuits if I could have been. and no I'm not depending on US money, US money helps but we don't depend on it where I work and live. without it the economy would be different. and we wouldn't be dependant on it. Cuba's economy has certainly seen an improvement recently, thanks to tourism. and not one dollar (legally) from the US. however americans have been known to put canadian flags on their backpacks and pretend to be canadian to go there... Beautiful beaches...

Re:Please, Please, Please don't let this kill Payp

[asuffield]

"There were numerous instances where I had an opportunity to commit a crime, but did not do so" is not a valid defence.

Never use PayPal.

[Dr. Zowie]

My wife has recently been purchasing some equipment over Ebay. Many of the sellers use PayPal. An interaction between the multiple auctions, PayPal, and the per-charge limit on her credit card meant that she got flagged as a possible fraudster. As a result, not only have several of her auctions not closed -- people who were already paid have lost their money. That is, people who sold us stuff, received the money from PayPal, and sent the stuff had their money pulled back out of their accounts. The money has not been credited back to our credit cards -- it is just... gone. From the point of view of the sellers, we might as well be fraudsters: they have neither their stuff nor their money.

Would you keep using a bank where stories like this kept cropping up? I thought not.

PayPal is useful for amounts up to what you would willingly lose in a poker game -- but for any more serious amount of money, they suck.

Re:Never use PayPal.

[fishbowl]

People use paypal for lack of a better alternative.
Most people don't have any problem. That doesn't make it ok, of course. But it's difficult and prohibitively expensive (and even more risky than paypal), to set yourself up to accept credit cards and checks, for what amounts to a yard sale.

Paypal fills a niche that is in high demand, but not high enough that anyone else has overtaken them. By "anyone else", I mean, say, Wells Fargo comes out with an Internet-Auction account that fits the use case currently dominated by paypal. That's part of it. The other part is that the sellers would need to adopt it.

Sellers accept paypal, and it's important that they do. Many buyers won't even consider a seller who does not accept paypal, because it's the only convenient way to do transactions. A check can add up to a month to the transaction. Anything that requires the buyer to get out of his chair, is going to lose to a competiting auction that allows the entire transaction from order to payment to delivery, without moving a muscle.

I really do wonder why the banks never picked up on this niche.

Short form to exclude???

[va3atc]

I want nothing to do with this but in the email it states to exclude yourself:

If you do not want to remain a member of the class and participate in
the settlement, then you must mail or deliver (email is not considered
adequate), such that it is RECEIVED on or before September 7, 2004,
(1) an original written, signed request for exclusion to Co-Lead
Counsel at the following address:

Co Lead Counsel:
PayPal Class Action Settlement
A. J. De Bartolomeo
Girard Gibbs & De Bartolomeo LLP
601 California Street, Suite 1400
San Francisco, California 94108
and (2) a copy of the written signed request to PayPal's counsel at
the following address:

PayPal's counsel:
PayPal Class Action Settlement
Morgan Lewis & Bockius LLP
One Market
Spear Street Tower
San Francisco, California 94105
This request for exclusion must contain your name and address; be
signed by you; and include the reference "In re PayPal Litigation,
Case No. CV-02-1227-JF (PVT)."

Which is a huge hassle, plus about $3 to $4 in postage just to protect myself from unwanted legal fees. GRRR!

Class actions - good?

[bezuwork's friend]

Class action lawsuits are designed to fill a purpose.

One is that many people who otherwise would not bring a suit or attempt compensation for injury can have their injuries addressed in court.

Additionally, class actions, not requiring the active participation of most class members, saves alot of people, lawyers, and courts the time and effort of suit. Imagine if all the members of a class action suit had to bring separate suits, with separate lawyers, in separate courts?

A third is that class actions can be used to redress injuries that warrent only low damages - thus if each person had to bring their own suit, they wouldn't as the cost of litigation would be more than the damages. But who's to say that a small injury to millions isn't more worthy a cause to remedy than a large injury to one or a few?

All this said, class actions have their problems, such as when plaintiffs who didn't even know about the suit while pending are asked to pay more than they will receive. Another problem is notice - a class member who didn't know about a suit and thus didn't opt out is later estopped from bringing his/her own suit even though they may not agree with the class action judgement.

So they want all the benefits of a bank

[vaportrailz]

with none of the responsibilities. Paypal locked my account in 2002, after I moved and my credit card address had changed. The process to unlock my account was near impossible. No phone number to contact, no email communication, only a fax number to send some form to. I hate lawyers, however in this case they are doing the public a service.

two grand

[poptones]

When I was checking out the "benefits of getting verified" info I found you can only transfer two grand OUT of the account into other services (but there is no limit on GETTING money into the account - which makes perfect business sense if you think about it, as they do not charge a fee for spending but collect a nice 7% "tax" on many payments collected into an account).

This is just from memory but as I recall it mentioned no limit on GETTING money into the account - only on spending FROM the account to other services outside paypal. Since most of my spending through the account is to other ebayers (most of whom also use paypal), very little of my overall cap has been used. Perhaps this is the same for you.

Office Space? Sneakers? God, I'm feeling old now..

[choovanski]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086393/ Richard Pryor: 1337 h@x0r

Re:Please, Please, Please don't let this kill Payp

[jasonditz]

This is next to meaningless for eBay (who owns Paypal). They paid a billion dollars for Paypal, what's an extra measely $9 million?

MOD PARENT DOWN: Factually Incorrect

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the (extremely long) fine print. There are two types of claimants: Those who have experienced financial loss (entitled to more money), and those who simpy signed up for an account (entitled to less money, but still entitled to money).

Re:MOD PARENT DOWN: Factually Incorrect

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure YOU aren't factually incorrect? By filling out the form and clicking send you are agreeing to this


CERTIFICATION

One or more of the following accurately describes what happened to me: PayPal caused me to suffer damages as a direct result of (a) an unauthorized or incorrect electronic fund transfer to or from my PayPal account; (b) an improper restriction or limitation of my PayPal account; (c) an unsatisfactory response to a request for information from PayPal about an unauthorized or incorrect transfer or improper limitation or restriction; and/or (d) a dispute with PayPal involving a chargeback, a refund, a buyer complaint, or PayPal's Seller Protection Policy, Buyer Complaint Process and/or Buyer Protection Policy; and

I wish to submit a Short Form Claim as a Dispute Resolution Claimant.

NOWHERE does it say "I certify I had an account between XX/XX/XXXX and YY/YY/YYYY and suffered no financial loss". Sorry, buddy, you're going to have to pull up a quote because I call bullshit.

Re:Please, Please, Please don't let this kill Payp

[StalinsNotDead]

Please, forgive my ignorance. But what does astroturfing mean in this context?

Death To PayPal

[Doc Ruby]

PayPal unilaterally froze my account (keeping the money) "for 180 days" when an "unusual" (legitimate) transfer triggered something, interrupting some crucially urgent business (that's why I used PayPal). They ignored email, and their webform, requests for more info, and were obnoxiously dismissive on their customer "service" (abuse) line. That's when I found the PayPal Warning. After the 180 days expired, they continued to ignore my requests to unfreeze the account (and return my money). Over a year later, more than double their arbitrary 180 days, they sent me an email notifying me that I could remove my money, but the account was still otherwise frozen. When I removed the money, some was missing, an unaccountable deduction adding injury to insulting injury. PayPal must die.

Unfortunately, the settlement of this claim means that PayPal writes off $3.5M as a cost of doing (unregulated monopoly) business. I might be entitled to remedy of my damages from the interrupted transaction, frozen account, and mysterious deduction. But PayPal will continue to act as an unregulated global banking monopoly. I wish the plaintiffs had continued their suit, and obtained actual justice, changing PayPal (and their possible successors) into a legitimate operation.

Re:Death To PayPal

[trentblase]

I wish the plaintiffs had continued their suit, and obtained actual justice

Why don't you go continue the suit for them? It sounds like you have real grievances, so quit whining, opt out of the class-action and fight it yourself.

Re:Death To PayPal

[Doc Ruby]

I'm not whining. I've inquired of both suits' lawyers how the settlement of one affects my participation in the other. And I expect to proceed to some kind of remedy to my damages. The other suit might also settle, or just fail, so no legal precedent is set, or I might decide that joining the current settlement is more likely to provide remedy to my damages than exclusively joining the other one in progress. But unless there's a legal enforced change to PayPal's injurious practices, we all take our chances that it will happen again. And without any serious competitor, that's an unfortunate prospect.

Now that I've politely explained my situation, why don't you explain where you get off accusing me of whining?

Re:Death To PayPal

[trentblase]

Well, if you weren't whining you were at least complaining. Which is synonymous. But I guess we all do it now and then. I'll let it slide this once.

Re:Death To PayPal

[Doc Ruby]

Not all complaining is whining. But I won't whine about your errors, either in definitions, or the power relationship in this thread.

Justice wheels still turning?

[Doc Ruby]

This settlement closes one case:
"In early 2002, Plaintiffs Roberta Toher and Jeffrey Resnick filed separate lawsuits against PayPal, Inc."

But there was at least one other class action suit, "Kamdar & Kirill v. PAYPAL, INC". I wonder if that suit is still alive, and if participating in this settlement releases PayPal from any liability in that suit.

Re:That much eh?

[Muddie]

I can't apply to get *anything*. Looks like they might need the money much more than me to pay for a better provider during settlements.

http://www.settlement4onlinepayments.com/

Failed to connect
The host 63.123.235.144 could not be contacted. If this persists, you should contact the administrator of the remote site.

Re:to determine when you signed up for a PP accoun

[zakezuke]

Thanks, mine says

This account has been permanently locked with a $0.00 USD balance. All information associated with this account has been blocked from the PayPal system and cannot be registered with another account.

No links to account info, no links anywhere, so no clue when I signed up for it.

Only Lawyers Win These Lawsuits

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm so ready to receive my check for $0.35US

That's all too typical of these sorts of class action lawsuits. The only people who come out ahead are the lawyers.

In the one against Apple about running OS X on older Macs, I could have gotten $25, but only if I did all sorts of paperwork and jumped through a series of hoops. Even if OS X ran badly on my beige G3--and it didn't--it wasn't worth it. I'd have rather seen Apple make my floppy drive work in OS X.

The judges (lawyers themselves) pander far too much to the lawyers in class action lawsuits. Die horribly of cancer in some release of a toxic gas by a major corporation and your family may get a few hundred thousands dollars. But the lawyers who file such lawsuits walk away with tens of millions of dollars EACH for no more than a few months of their time.

The "you die, you get a pittance" and "you're a lawyer, you make out like a bandit" inequalities of our current legal system are obscene. We need laws to limit just how badly the lawyers can rip us off.

But how do you change the law when some many of our legislators are lawyers, and when one major party (the Democrats) gets about 25% of its donations from lawyers. --Mike Perry, Inkling blog , Seattle

How will they pay me

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you think they can send me my settlement money through PayPal? ;-)

You don't have to have been affected

[Anonymous Coward]

I recieved one of these emails as well and you do not need to have been affected to recieve money in the payout. According to the email that I recieved $1 000 000 is to be set aside for people who were not affected but meet the other eligibility criteria. To apply for this you need to fill out something different from the short or long forms. Thos forms are for the people who are willing to state that they sent complaints to paypal about the problems in the lawsuit.

It's About Time

[Anonymous Coward]

Twice in my history of dealing with PayPal, I've sent $ for eBay auctions via PayPal, not received the merchandise, filed complaints with both eBay and PayPal.

Guess what? The person still got my money. The worst that happened was that eBay revoked one of the seller's ability to sell merchandise. Big whoop.

Now, my losses were in the $300 range, but I know of people who have lost a lot more money than that.

Here's how it worked: in the case of a dispute, PayPal would only refund your $ if the seller still had it in their PayPal account. They would take NO more aggressive action than that. So, if the person had already transferred or used the money, the buyer was out of luck.

If you paid out of the balance of your PayPal account, there was no other source of recourse available to you, unlike when you paid by credit card.

Re:It's About Time

[deeny]

(forgot to log in before)

Twice in my history of dealing with PayPal, I've sent $ for eBay auctions via PayPal, not received the merchandise, filed complaints with both eBay and PayPal.

Guess what? The person still got my money. The worst that happened was that eBay revoked one of the seller's ability to sell merchandise. Big whoop.

Now, my losses were in the $300 range, but I know of people who have lost a lot more money than that.

Here's how it worked: in the case of a dispute, PayPal would only refund your $ if the seller still had it in their PayPal account. They would take NO more aggressive action than that. So, if the person had already transferred or used the money, the buyer was out of luck.

If you paid out of the balance of your PayPal account, there was no other source of recourse available to you, unlike when you paid by credit card.

Re:Please, Please, Please don't let this kill Payp

[Fweeky]

Status: UK - Verified (1746)

I've experienced a handful of chargebacks and a few reversed payments. My account stopped accepting payments once to confirm I was happy to have more than 1000UKP in there, after it had been past that for the past 8 months quite regularly.

Suggestions for alternatives which aren't a lot more expensive and which aren't run by morons are welcome.

Please Help!

[Anonymous Coward]

I am from Canada but it is rejecting my application also!

Canadians / Canada ?

[KrisHolland]

Can canadians apply also?

Re:Please, Please, Please don't let this kill Payp

[Anonymous Coward]

paypal is stupid. if the US treasury was smart enough, they'd have their own online money trust system.

Canadian Postal Code?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Address form does not accept non-US postal codes, how do you enter a postal code from Canada?

Class Action = Attorney's Full Employment Act

[Anonymous Coward]

These sorts of Class Action Lawsuits have become the bane of our legal system here in the United States. The legislation which created the Class Action Lawsuit as a vehicle for litigation was intended to allow the average citizen a reasonable opportunity to collect damages resulting from a legal action. However, in practice the Class Action Lawsuit has benefited nobody except the trial lawyers. The $0.35 which individual claimants are likely to receive is far outweighed by the increased costs which are incurred by individuals as a result of higher insurance rates, more expensive goods and services, and unaffordable health care. The entire concept was engineered by the trial lawyers to lower the burden of proof in civil litigation, multiply the amount of damage awards, and increase the likelihood of settlements. The lawyers pocket a larger percentage of the settlements for less work and society and everyone else is worse off.

I was screwed by paypal....

[carrilla]

but that was before ebay bought them. One of my buyers got a refund from me because she accidentally paid for something twice. When she tried to get that 2nd payment back on her credit card, paypal couldn't differentiate between a chargeback and a refund to her card. I had no previous history with ebay or paypal, good standing etc and so on but they froze my account, nothing coming in or going out... for a week. I couldn't find a phone number and they took 24 hours to return my emails. So, in theory, I lost money... ebay being my sole income (in college). Still debating jumping on the band wagon but might not be worth the trouble...

Who gets the majority of the winning?

[Mc_Anthony]

Trial Lawyers.

We need tort reform desperately!

mod parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

mod parent up

Re:Please, Please, Please don't let this kill Payp

[edrain]

It's like 'grassroots', but fake. Basically, it's ground-level marketing that's undertaken by a large interest (corporation, for example) to simulate a grassroots 'movement' or groundswell, when, in fact, it's just as calculated as any other marketting effort.

US Centric - rest of us cannot fill in the form!

[grolschie]

STATUTORY DAMAGE FUND CLAIM

Complains that my non-US zip code and phone numbers are invalid!!!

Maybe you should have RTFA

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus god damn christ I'm so sick of this fucking shit... "Oohhh booo freaking hoooo I dont live in the US and this story is about the US and I dont live there so I'm going to fucking whine like a little fucking bitch beacuse I dont live in the US by the way did I mention that the US sucks and I dont live there so why am i reading this story boooooooo fucking hoooooo".

SHUT THE FUCK UP.

First of all, the lawsuit does not say "everyone in the US", it just lists about 10 countries that are not eligible, but that still leaves PLENTY MORE that are OUTSIDE OF THE US that are eligible.

Maybe if you had RTFA before posting your bullshit, I wouldnt be telling you to fuck off and die.

Thanks,
Your friends in the US of A

Slashdot/lawsuit effect?

[TyrelHaveman]

You'd think with millions of dollars the lawyers would be able to afford a decent web host:

Failed to connect
The host 63.123.235.144 could not be contacted. If this persists, you should contact the administrator of the remote site.

PayPal admits to no wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

In the notice I received it states that "PayPal does not believe that it did anything wrong. In fact, PayPal disputes that the EFTA, originally passed in 1978, applies to its business. PayPal denies any and all liability for the claims alleged in the lawsuit." I understand that PayPal may feel that they did nothing "legally" wrong as PayPal states that they feel the EFTA laws do not apply to their business. But does PayPal feel like they did anything wrong, perhaps not legally, but ethically, concerning the charges aganist them? PayPal has caused a lot of grief to a lot of people in suffering account restriction(s) and/or unauthorized electronic fund transfer(s), and it is widely documented how PayPal has been negligent in responding appropriately to such requests for assistance. We feel like an apology is deserved. Does PayPal still feel like did no wrong, in the general sense of the word?

Thank you,

Max Hodges
White Rabbit Press

Re:US Centric - rest of us cannot fill in the form

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you find a solution yet? Check back here later, I will make a yahoo group for Non-US people to complain and get answers in a second.

understanding paypal

[lynfreedom]

So how do we prove this? I haven't looked at the long form yet but sounds like it is going to be crazy. They beat me out of $537.00 because of the way they handled a dispute but how do I prove that is the question.

PayPal Ain't My Buddy

[adzoox]

PayPal Ain't My Buddy

Re:US Centric - rest of us cannot fill in the form

[grolschie]

Nope. No solution. Please post back here if you find out more.