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SVP : More Video Anti-Copying Technology

rkroetch writes "NDS, STMicroelectronics and Thomson have announced they will develop a new anti-piracy technology called SVP (Secure Video Processor). This will require a special SVP processor in the box to play the encrypted video signal. All those licensing fees for our DVD-ROMs for nothing?"

120 of 391 comments (clear)

  1. I don't understand... by Mold · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why they always have to call it piracy. Why not something like, "Copyright Control Device/Software".

    Oh well, I suppose I do understand why. I just don't like it.

    1. Re:I don't understand... by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It wouldn't even be "Copyright Control", it's closer to "Copy prevention"...

    2. Re:I don't understand... by zaxios · · Score: 5, Funny

      Why they always have to call it piracy... Oh well, I suppose I do understand why. I just don't like it.

      Yup, the implication is that copying movies and music is a lot like blowing up homes with cannonballs, plundering villages and raping the governor's daughter.

      Maybe it's not an entirely fair term.

    3. Re:I don't understand... by iamatlas · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I don't understand... Why they always have to call it piracy.

      I know, it's hard to RTFA. I didn't read it, and I don't plan to. But really, let's at least RTF-Headline:SVP : More Video Anti-Copying Technology.

      Looks like a euphamism for piracy to me. Now, they could have used "piracy" there, but they didn't.

      So. Let's try not to mod the parent "insightful" or anything for that matter. Actually, ignore this post too. Really just nitpicking. I'm an asshole for it.

      Oh, and piracy sounds more adventurous. Arr harr harr, matey!

    4. Re:I don't understand... by paedobear · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's a very loaded statement. Or are you trying to imply that everyone that's downloaded an unlicenced piece of data is a potential, repressed, rapist?

    5. Re:I don't understand... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is a big disconnect here. The traditional pirates were not known for giving away the goods for free :-)

    6. Re:I don't understand... by phoenix.bam! · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I find Robin Hoodinism to be a much better term than piracy. Steal from the Rich, give to the Poor!

    7. Re:I don't understand... by NoMoreNicksLeft · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm not a potential rapist, but I do want one of those funky pirate hats. Hell, maybe even an eyepatch.

    8. Re:I don't understand... by NanoGator · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "They call it piracy because, just like the traditional pirates people think of, the people who insist on stealing movies and music have the same general disdain for other people's property and rights as the pirates"

      Pity they're not that specific. What the *AA is doing is akin to calling anybody who sails the seas a pirate.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    9. Re:I don't understand... by polecat_redux · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I always thought the "reason/excuse" for piracy is simply the discontent of a large number of people with the cost of the BS that the media producers insist on shoving down our throats. To make matters worse, the erosion of fair-use rights caused by increased efforts to combat piracy serves only to devalue the product even further. These companies should really be working to make the general population *want* to give up their money by giving them something at a fair price rather than trying to resort to mob tactics by attempting to eradicate the "competition".

      For a lot of people, piracy is only a supplement to a healthy media budget. Some simply cannot afford to purchase all that they are interested in, and if prices don't drop, piracy seems the way to go. And no, copyrigt infringement is not stealing. No one is losing anything but a potential sale, and if "random pirate" doesn't have the money to buy that movie/game/whatever, there really isn't any harm done.

    10. Re:I don't understand... by geminidomino · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'd like to take this opportunity to coin the term "Sodomy of Rights"

    11. Re:I don't understand... by gilroy · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Blockquoth the poster:

      It's the same general social dysfunction, it's just a smaller scale.

      Plus, well, software piracy results in a lot fewer deaths.

      Oh, wait. That means it isn't "the same general dysfunction" at all. One involves murder and mayhem; the other involves scoping out 2 Fast 2 Furious for free. Indeed, as is continuously (and facetiously) pointed out all the time on slashdot, even supporters of file swapping don't agree that, say, their cars should be communal -- so there's no "same general disdain for other people's property and rights". (Under other topics file swappers seem in fact to be more concerned with people's rights, so that sort of takes care of a "general disdain" right there.)

      Look, infringement of copyright is illegal. In fact, it's even wrong. People shouldn't do it. But that doesn't make it piracy, except through the unjustified and laughably outrageous co-option of the term by publishers, a long long time ago.

      And they co-opted the term, as one of the parent posters noted, precisely to raise the connotations of the universally-decried crime of (actual) piracy, to make copyright infringers look more menacing than they actually are.
    12. Re:I don't understand... by arose · · Score: 4, Funny

      I guess it would be more acurate to call it Anti-Monk Technology, pirates aren't really famous for copying.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    13. Re:I don't understand... by Moridineas · · Score: 5, Informative

      FWIW, piracy as a term used to describe illegal copying of works goes back to the 1600's with written examples, and indications that the term had been adopted earlier. This is hardly a new term.

    14. Re:I don't understand... by KD5YPT · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most of us know its wrong, but the whole problem with the current system is this.

      1. All copy-protection will get broken. Sooner or later.

      2. Media companies are unwilling to find alternatives to stop this (such as altering business model).

      3. Media conglomerates in an essence are trying to control Tech industries, which pisses a lot of people off.

      4. I personally don't believe ANY group of people DESERVE more power. Especailly not RIAA. I believe power in the individual (unfortunately, many are not responsible enough).

      Note: Anonymous Coward, if you're not willing to stand by your words by signing up, your voice does not deserve to be heard.

      --
      In US, you can easily buy enough major firearms to wipe out your neighbourhood but a few little fireworks are banned.
    15. Re:I don't understand... by trewornan · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "Property" . . . there's an interesting word with a very precise definition, "Stealing" is another one. Yet again we have a post which insists that copyright infringement is the same as "stealing property".

      It isn't the same thing at all, and the law recognises this.

    16. Re:I don't understand... by dnoyeb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      i think he was suggesting that since they intend to block both illegal and legal copying, anti-piracy is not the right term.

    17. Re:I don't understand... by halowolf · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I can agree on many of your points but not on the issue that its ok for someone to copy a copyrighted work if they cannot afford it but those that copy and can afford it are the real people doing the harm.

      The harm being done by copying is the collective responsibility of everyone doing the copying. Whether its through the downloading of copyrighted works or buying cheap copies form Asia. If someone does not have the money to purchase or rent the work, then that doesn't give them rights over other people to just take it and do with it as they please.

      If copyright infringement is not stealing, then what is it? There has been no fair compensation over your use of the work. I am not arguing for a minute as to whether movie studios or the RIAA's members are "fair" in the way they compensate the people that produce the work. I'm talking about the relationship of a person to a copyrighted work.

      I buy my games, I buy my movies, I buy my music, I go to the cinema (I don't buy their overpriced food), and there are countless people around me, that I see getting what I am purchasing for free, making a mockery of what I do. When I vote for what I do or do not like in culture, I vote with my dollar. Of course there is going to be a knee-jerk reaction by copyright holders to the protection of copyrighted works, it is their livlihood after all, nomatter what corruption may or may not be going on to product it.

      Those that take copyrighted works for themselves lend weight to whatever unreasonable arguments that are put forth for the protection of copyright works and the media its distributed on, regardless of whether those people copying intend to or not.

      I think that if we truly wan't to address these restrictions to our fair use rights, we must first free ourself of the notion that taking copyrighted works without the permission of the copyright holder is not wrong. It is wrong. Only then will have a moral high ground to stand upon.

    18. Re:I don't understand... by westlake · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I find Robin Hoodinism to be a much better term than piracy. Steal from the Rich, give to the Poor!

      like the poor have DirectTV, PVRs and DVD recorders. the pirates here are privileged middle class students and adults. who steal for themselves and give back nothing.

    19. Re:I don't understand... by polecat_redux · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I really can see where you are coming from, and in some ways I would agree with you. However, is it possible to spark a revolution without the possibility of taking lives (which is also wrong)? Sometimes, desperate situations call for desperate measures. Most people are no more than cattle that will eat whatever is given them. It is up to the few that are willing to stand up and say they've had enough to make any real difference. It's easy to say the copyright infringment is black and white wrong, but I don't believe it is. I think it is an expression of popular opinion. I think it is the kindling of a revolt whereby the people make it known that the laws as they are now are not fair or just, and that they should be changed. It's really our only hope since Big Business has the money to bribe politicians to further their agenda and the general public doesn't.

      I think of the situation in these terms:
      During the US revolutionary war, the English were still marching in rank (as was the tradition of combat), but the revolutionaries basically reinvented guerilla warfare. The had inferior weapons and smaller forces, so they fought the only way they could - by taking small pecks at their attackers; fighting and running. They changed the field of combat and forced the English to compromise because their tactics were outdated and they did not have the foresight to adapt to a changing world. Our current situation with Big Media is no different.

    20. Re:I don't understand... by mkldev · · Score: 2, Funny
      Not me. I don't like it.

      You don't like it? Well, if you don't like it, what do you want to do?

      I want to sing and dance, I want to sing and dance....

      --
      120 character sigs suck. Make it 250.
    21. Re:I don't understand... by lewko · · Score: 2, Informative

      Now would probably be an excellent time to remind you about Talk Like a Pirate Day - September 19, later this week.

      --
      Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
    22. Re:I don't understand... by Fallen_Knight · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the un mentioned one, the crime of making 2 Fast 2 Furious....

    23. Re:I don't understand... by arose · · Score: 2, Funny

      You monk you! :)

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    24. Re:I don't understand... by 3terrabyte · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "And copying of songs isn't pirate-like ... that would be more akin to actually breaking into a warehouse and filling your trunk with stolen discs"

      Would it?
      Some of the people currently being sued had about 800 songs. 80x10=800, so let's say 80 CD's worth. If they had instead walked into a store, and walked out with 80 CD's, would they be facing a Civil law suit of $600,000? Because that is what they're facing from from P2P charges at $750 x 800. That is the number they're facing... that or settle.

      Of course, none of this really equates. None of them are being sued for downloading. (The stealing analogy part) They're being sued for distribution of copyrighted works that they don't have permission. (Uploading). Unfortunately for them, they are facing laws that were made long ago against professional pirating operations. $750 to $150,000 per copyright infringement. And with the NET ACT, trading mp3's is now considered 'profiting'.

      Personally, I wish the laws fit the crime. I wish artists wouldn't get ripped off by the greedy recording industry, I wish there were no monopolies, and I wish Pink Floyd hadn't broken up.

      --

      Why are there only 19 people folding@home for slashdot?

  2. hmm...yea.. by caino59 · · Score: 3, Funny

    tv out anyone?

    fuckin' bastards....

    i'll be sure to avoid anything that has this in it until it's easily bypassed.

    of course, given past techniques, that shouldn't be too damn long...

    someone's probably already hatching a plan..

    1. Re:hmm...yea.. by Nykon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      so, how long till a SVP VM is written that will make the actual chip obsolete ;)

      --
      "It's better to be a pirate then join the Navy"
    2. Re:hmm...yea.. by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Funny

      someone's probably already hatching a plan..

      The password is: "Analog Hole".

    3. Re:hmm...yea.. by MikeXpop · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well... yeah, but how does that ensure Mr. Honest doesn't have to go out and buy a new DVD player just to play his new DRM'd discs? Or playing it on his laptop during flights? The only way they could do that is to pirate it.

      Which is just what this is trying to prevent.

      --
      Etiquette is etiquette. He kills his mother but he can't wear grey trousers.
    4. Re:hmm...yea.. by pair-a-noyd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hint..

      Used Scanning Electron Microscope on ebay - $4,000

      Googling for the works of Markus Kuhn - free
      http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/sc99-tamper.pdf

      Watching free TV just for the challange - Priceless

    5. Re:hmm...yea.. by tftp · · Score: 2, Interesting
      This study is awfully obsolete. It applies only to simplest, manually routed designs. A modern synthesis tool will make the RTL of your design completely unreadable, and you will have a lot of trouble even if you can see it. For example:
      // 128-bit secret key generator
      module KeyGenerator(clk,reset,out);
      input wire clk, reset;
      output reg out;
      reg [127:0] state;

      always @(posedge clk) begin
      if (reset)
      state <= 128b'1100101010...0101; // Secret
      else begin
      out <= state[127];
      state <= {state[126:0],1b'0};
      end
      end // always
      end // module

      This Verilog module (may or may not compile, I didn't try) produces the serialized key, bit by bit. The trickiest part is where the 'state' register is initialized. This can be done in many different ways, and the synthesis tool can do many optimizations; you don't even know -where- the bits of the register will be physically present on the chip (unless you have the complete design in your hands and run Chip Viewer.)

      This all means that it is -very- difficult to reverse engineer the design, especially if you don't just want to copy it "as is" but want to understand how it works.

      If anything, you'd be better off making a machine (seriously parallel processing!) where a you throw very many keys at a large number of SVPs under test. You can do that much easier than the microscope and the rest. If the chip is fast enough, and if you have several hundred chips, then you can even hope to crack the key before you expire yourself :-)

  3. It's crazy... by OneDeeTenTee · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...but people don't believe me when I say that we currently have the technology to create a total lockdown of digital content.

    Sure, the analog hole is still there, but we don't want to be limited by that, do we?

    --
    Stop the world; I need to get off.
    1. Re:It's crazy... by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 4, Funny
      ...but people don't believe me when I say that we currently have the technology to create a total lockdown of digital content.

      That is because we dont and we never will. The basic premise of cryptography is that a sender (Bob) sends an encrypted message to receiver (Alice) so that an attacker (Neo) wont be able to read it no matter how hard he tries. Forgetting for the moment the discussion of our ability to encrypt hard enough for a really, really clever Neo, in this case (TV and DVD's), Neo and Alice are the same person. This "only" breaks the whole foundation of cryptography. Not to mention it also presents a gender-bender conundrum.

    2. Re:It's crazy... by Alsee · · Score: 2, Insightful

      in this case (TV and DVD's), Neo and Alice are the same person

      Actually no. I read their docs, this scheme amounts to Trusted-Computing-on-a-chip. I'm a bit of a self-trained expert on Trusted Computing. The entire goal of it is that Alice is a self-destructing tamper-resistant chip you have. Bob sends the encrypted data to Alice - your chip - and Alice refuses to tell you her key and she refuses to let you use the content or do anything else except as specifically directed by Bob or by Alice's maker Satan.

      The only way to break the system is to manage to surgically open the Alice chip and read out her private key without her noticing and suiciding her memory. This is possible, but very difficult. It would require a pretty sophisticated lab. If you get that key you can make a clone Alinda. Alinda looks just like Alice and can fool Bob, but Alinda will also obey you and tell you anything you like.

      Some signifigant points however: With Trusted Computing you can really only make one good servant Alinda for each Alice you surgically dissect. One dificult surgery, one liberated clone. If you try to pump out Alinda clones and give them to your friends then at some point some Bob is going to report back to his maker Satan multiple sightings of "Alice" (actually Alinda). At that point Satan puts Alice on a banned list and Alinda effectively drops dead. Also if you are not careful enough Bob might somehow notice that "Alice" has misbehaved and tattle that back to Satan, again getting Alice on the banned list and killing Alinda.

      However this Secure Video Processor (SVP) system looks like it will generally be more limited than a full general purpose Trusted Computer. It looks like in SVP Bob will often have no chance to speak to Satan. The upshot is that Bob cannot report multiple sightings of "Alice" or tattle on her misbehavior. It should be far safer to make multiple Alinda clones, so long as Satan himself never gets a hold of Alinda to stick on the banned list. And even if he does, the various Bob's already out there will probably never speak to Satan to receive that banned list. Even if he does, Bib probably doesn't have the capacity to receive/retain/utilize that banned list.

      It seems these SVP chips will be signifigantly less secure than a full blown trusted Computing system unless that have both signifigant support hardware AND periodicaly deactivate themselves until permitted to "phone home" to Satan for reactivation.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  4. From the Web Site by Baricom · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Satisfies and exploits the proven consumer demand for high value content that is accessible and distributable over a variety of media

    Thanks, but no thanks. I don't buy from people who exploit me.

    1. Re:From the Web Site by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 5, Funny

      "I don't buy from people who exploit me."

      Now leaving Capitalism. Welcome to denial.

    2. Re:From the Web Site by Baricom · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Okay, how about: "I don't buy from people who try to squeeze out every last bit of producer surplus, forgetting that customer goodwill generates repeat sales and word-of-mouth advertising"?

  5. A waste by Zinic · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yet another waste of resources that could of gone in to making the technology better.

    --

    It's was never designed to do that...
    1. Re:A waste by TheGavster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      From the perspective of the content controllers, this is a better tech. Who cares if the user can actually *use* the stuff, as long as they buy it and can't transfer it?

      --
      "Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
  6. So by thegoogler · · Score: 5, Informative

    How long is it going to take for some malaysian company to make a PCI card with the required chip on it?

    1. Re:So by vijayiyer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And how much longer after that before you or the shipping company gets sued into oblivion?

    2. Re:So by JustAnotherBob · · Score: 2, Insightful

      sueing? Try to get those countries to adopt the DMCA first then we can start talking. Until then we'll continue to get the "copyright circumventing products" or as we say in Amerika Access of Evil.

  7. Coming soon to DirecTV... by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Interesting

    From the article...

    NDS, 78 percent owned by Rupert Murdoch's News Corp, has developed the anti-piracy software component for SVP. Beginning next year, Thomson will embed SVP-enabled chips developed by STMicro into its video playback devices and set-top boxes.

    American satellite TV operator DIRECTV, a News Corp affiliate, is the first to use the new technology, the companies said.


    Now, let's think about this for a second. Even though DirecTV has about millions units in circulation now, the actual decryption part of the operation is done in the form of a single smart card that is very easy to swap out. Therefore, DirecTV doesn't have to make everybody get new boxes to apply this tech, they just have to send out new cards.

    1. Re:Coming soon to DirecTV... by NoMoreNicksLeft · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Can they afford another card swap so quickly? I was suprised to see the P3 die so quickly after the P2, but P4 and P5 are already out... to retire those even a year from now seems insane.

    2. Re:Coming soon to DirecTV... by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Swapping cards BEFORE they're widely hacked is the only way to prevent hacking from ever recurring as badly as DirecTV used to have to deal with.

      Sure, spend all the processing resources you can muster, if the solution to the codec isn't descovered until the card generation is already retired, then it'll be a successful hack but too late to cause any money problems.

    3. Re:Coming soon to DirecTV... by NoMoreNicksLeft · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm not disputing that this might be their philosophy, but no one can argue that it's cheap.

      Even at their quantities, a card is still a non-trivial cost. Let's say it's only $5. Times 10 million subscribers, thats $50 million dollars. Then, logistics for shipping all of them. Double that. Add to it people who have older recievers, that just won't work, despite extensive testing. They'll spend $150 per subscriber there, and they'll do it because they don't want to risk losing that customer. I have no way to estimate how often this happens, but my guess is 25,000-100,000 for the p3-p4/p5 swap alone.

      And in truth, what does it gain them? The conversion rate from satellite hackers to paying subscribers can't be that high, even when hacks are unavailable. And those conversions will only remain loyal as long as hacks remain unavailable. If they converted 200,000 such people with the last swap, I'd be shocked. And I would think that's the minimum necessary, to even break even.

      From an accounting standpoint, this can't be justified on dollar amounts alone. You have to start figuring in other factors... such as strategy. If they can use high piracy numbers to get lucrative legislation passed, maybe you can make up for it in the long run (something that corporations are notorious for ignoring). But even if that is the case, this runs things in the complete opposite direction... at the moment, DirecTV has reduced their "piracy" problem from a high of maybe 400,000 at its peak, to no more than 5-10 (serious number). At the moment, no one who doesn't have access to a million dollar lab is completely locked out, and I have my doubts that even a proof of concept hack exists.

      But it gets even weirder. of that 400,000 number, I'd say close to half were canadian... completely unavailable (by law) as customers. For them, there is no conversion possible.

      None of it makes any sense, so I'm obviously missing pieces here and there. However, that only makes me suspicious that they're *really* up to something stinky.

    4. Re:Coming soon to DirecTV... by NoMoreNicksLeft · · Score: 2

      Only after several levels of indirection. For instance, there is no "canadian HBO", but you can find The Sopranos on canadian channels.

      Wonder if it's illegal for me to hack Bell Express Vu? ;-)

    5. Re:Coming soon to DirecTV... by LemonFire · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't worry, the subscribers will pay for the new card. It won't cost more than a few dollars anyway, assembled somewhere in China.

      Probably made in the same factory producing the hardware that will allow you to circumvent the said anti-copying device.

    6. Re:Coming soon to DirecTV... by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In general, they don't. They're still functional at catching what they used to, In-The-Clear C-Band feeds... but in general very few such feeds exist anymore. The major networks encrypt nearly all of their feeds to affiliates, and sports networks that used to broadcast games in the clear have now locked those feeds down with encryption too.

      There are entities like 4DTV that sell packages of encrypted channels... but, well, that's an ugly and more expensive way to get exactly what you would get out of DirecTV or Dish. Not worth bothering in my opinion.

  8. encryption by abes · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I am curious as to how they will manage encryption with this, and if it will be yet another encryption through obfuscation.

    It seems the smartest approach is to publish and patent the encryption scheme, but make it so time consuming, that you will need hardware to do the decryption properly. That way any one who tries to get around the protection scheme and not pay royalties will be easily sueable.

    The upside for non-mainstream OS users, is that it will most likely mean non-OS dependent solutions (maybe).

    Of course programmable logic chips could potentially be a threat, but not a major one, as most people don't have that type of hardware.

    1. Re:encryption by Alsee · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I am curious as to how they will manage encryption with this

      It is pretty much a Trusted Computing system on a chip.

      How does it work? Well the ultra-simplified explanation is that every chip has a different random secret key locked inside. The chips are tamper resistant and designed to self-destruct their secret key if they detect you attempting to rip the chip itself open to read the key.

      The chips use some cute mathemagical tricks that allow them to use those secret random numbers recognize other genuine secure chips while refusing to speak to any fake chip you try to make yourself. The real random keys come with a signature. You could always make up your own random key, however you cannot fake the signature for it and it will be rejected.

      The chips then use some more mathemagic to be able to send encrypted messages to each other. They can read those messages, but no matter how much you eavesdrop on their conversation you can't read or alter anthing they say to eachother unless you know one of their secret random keys.

      They can re-encrypt and store files locked under their secret keys. Without knowing that secret key you can't read any of their files and you can't do anything that they do not specifically permit you to do.

      If you *do* manage to dissect one of these self-destructing chips and manage to read out its secret key then you have broken free and can do whatever you like. However if you give a copy of that secret key to anyone else they will probably dectect that multiple key use (every key is supposed to be random and unique, so if they see the same key twice they know you copied it), and they will revoke that key. Dead key. They will also revoke your key if you do not adaquately conceal the fact that you have free and unrestricted control of your own machine.

      Unless they seriously screw up somewhere, there simply will not be any possible software attacks. The only way to beat the system is with a special lab ripping chips open and reading keys out one by one. Depending on how they set up the system each chip you rip and each key you extract can pretty much only only be used by one person. One rip, one person.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  9. Seriously...who cares? by neiffer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    " A rise in piracy has accompanied the explosion of digital video players. Crafty programmers have discovered ways to crack into DVD players, for example, to make copies of Hollywood movies quickly and cheaply." Yup, and this will be cracked too. It's a game of cat and mouse. Remember how DVD's were supposed to be iron proof? And they certainly haven't locked down CD's. Create whatever technology you want but in the end, unless we change the greater system of licensing media, none of this will matter and piracy will continue.

    1. Re:Seriously...who cares? by CodeBuster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is partially correct. However, the main problem with a copy protection schemes is always the key distribution problem. A crypto system (assuming that the algorithm is strong) is only as safe as its key distribution system, which presents a paradox:

      The fewer people who have access to the decryption key(s) the less vulnerable the system is to attack, but in order to make money the crypto system must be widely distributed, including the decryption keys, which makes the system more vulnerable to attack.

      The business models of the content creation industry are often in direct conflict with the realites of secure cryptography. There is really no good way to reconcile them at this time without some sort of compromise. For the time being the content industry has seen fit to compromise the crypto in the hopes that at least Joe Sixpack will be foiled in his attempt to record his favorite TV show, but as any rancher will tell you it only takes one smart horse to open the gate and the rest of the heard will follow...

    2. Re:Seriously...who cares? by Alsee · · Score: 2, Funny

      Remember how DVD's were supposed to be iron proof?

      I always thought they were supposed to be bullet clad.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  10. We didn't license anything by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 3, Insightful

    All those licensing fees for our DVD-ROMs for nothing?"


    What licensing fees? We didn't license anything. We bought copies of copyrighted works. Those copies are our property.

    1. Re:We didn't license anything by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 2, Informative

      I believe he's referring to licensing fees for the hardware and software encoding/decoding.

      And you demonstrate so little understanding of copyright law, your response reeks of flamebait.

    2. Re:We didn't license anything by chadruva · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In reality, what you really own is the DVD, the box and all the physical stuff on it; now, the media on it is us just licensed.

      You can do whatever you want with your DVD (play it, use it as a frisby, etc.) however there are limits on what you can do with the media (cannot copy that data on it, cannot play it for money, cannot play it on public, etc, etc).

      Is not like you own the movie or something, just the physical DVD disk.

      --
      C-x C-c
  11. Losing its teeth by mod_parent_down · · Score: 5, Funny

    At this point the general befief is that pirates of legend merely sought to share homes, villages and governors' daughters.

    1. Re:Losing its teeth by quintessent · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm pretty sure they actually wanted to duplicate the homes and daughters and give the cloned copies to their friends.

    2. Re:Losing its teeth by lewko · · Score: 4, Funny
      At this point the general befief is that pirates of legend merely sought to share homes, villages and governors' daughters.

      Not quite. The pirates were only "evaluating" each of the governors' daughters with a view to possibly marrying them later.

      --
      Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
  12. "Black boxes" are designed to foil the masses by kcbrown · · Score: 5, Interesting
    ...and not the technologically adept.

    That's because people who are technologically adept and who have sufficient resources are quite rare. Only someone who can hack the hardware would be able to grab the original digital content from a properly-designed black box.

    I suspect that hardware like this will, in time (if not immediately), be used to enforce pay-per-view or something like that for permanent media. From the info page:

    The basic control paradigm for SVP is "Content X for Device Y in Time window Z. " This means that content X can be viewed only on the target (approved Y) device and only during the broadcaster-specified time window (which can range from 'immediate view only' until 'forever' Z).

    Yep, sounds like pay-per-view to me.

    It really is only a matter of time before everything that's available falls under the control of something like this...

    --
    Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
    1. Re:"Black boxes" are designed to foil the masses by rokzy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      the day it becomes pay per view is the day I stop buying.

      make things a hassle for me (the legitimate customer) and I won't bother any more.

      lets see who needs who's money the most shall we?

    2. Re:"Black boxes" are designed to foil the masses by Koatdus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      > the day it becomes pay per view is the day I stop buying.

      You probably are already watching pay-per-view.... it's called cable tv any you pay through the nose every month for it. Worse they still put the commercials in so you pay to watch commercials. Worse yet the quality of the picture is not that great. Even worse then that is the "casual" approch to customer service you get from BOZO and compan^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H your local cable provider.

      I, on the other hand, watch "over the air" HDTV with no monthly fee although the entry price is slightly higher. There are still commercials although they are now free (ie. I am not paying to watch them). The only disadvantage is that instead of 65 channels of unwatchable crap I only get 11 channels of unwatchable crap... wait a minute is that an advantage or a disadvantage?

      --
      Every wrong attempt discarded is a step forward - T. Edison
    3. Re:"Black boxes" are designed to foil the masses by Oddly_Drac · · Score: 2, Interesting

      " ...and not the technologically adept."

      Which is why there's a black market service industry springing up to help, surprisingly not backed by organised crime, but generally of people helping out other people. In fact, the black market has rapidly become the 'real' P2P network.

      However, I'm hoping that they do this, then it removes the excuse of 'piracy' from the crappy DVD sales of 'Gigli'.

      "Yep, sounds like pay-per-view to me."

      We knew it was coming. Hell, even the idea of closing the analog loop was intended to push them in the direction of higher control, but personally I can live without TV if it comes to that, and this could be the death knell for media in general; people aren't necessarily very politically aware, but start cutting into their TV time....

      --
      Oddly Draconis
      Too cynical to live, too stubborn to die.
  13. I don't mind... by NetDanzr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The new technology is fine with me. As long as its presence is clearly marked on the DVD box, so that I don't accidentally purchase such a protected DVD.

    1. Re:I don't mind... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The new technology is fine with me. As long as its presence is clearly marked on the DVD box, so that I don't accidentally purchase such a protected DVD.

      Is it really fine with you?

      Do you really think individual buyers have anywhere near as strong a position in the purchase negotiation as the corps do? Will you still think that if all units from all manufacturers contain the unwanted "feature?"

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    2. Re:I don't mind... by Alsee · · Score: 2, Funny

      I noticed it is "copy protected" mark on it. Whops, CD goes back. Voted with my money again and felt good about it.

      Drats! You should have taken a few extra seconds to send a clear signal. You should have "discovered" the problem up at the register and canceled your purchace right in front of them, prefferably loudly and within earshot of the manager.

      I vote with my dollars as well. I refuse to buy DRM crippled products.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    3. Re:I don't mind... by AttilaSz · · Score: 2

      Actually, I took few extra seconds after sending the above comment, and went to the band's website, found a contact e-mail address and wrote them too about how they lost a sale yesterday. Not a too big activism, but IMHO the most a single consumer can do for the cause.

      --
      Sig erased via substitution of an identical one.
  14. So much for CyberPunk by AndroidCat · · Score: 5, Funny

    When we finally do get those implanted Nikon eyeballs, they'll probably come with anti-piracy chips. (The country-code would be a bitch on business trips.)

    --
    One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  15. waste 2x by zaxios · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yet another waste of resources that could of gone in to making the technology better

    Don't forget the roughly equal amount of effort that will go into cracking it.

  16. Re:screw them by dustinbarbour · · Score: 4, Funny

    AKA the analog hole..

  17. It was later announced... by rel4x · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ....that the only difference between this processor, and the old style processor, is that they put "secure" in the name...

    --

    Before you mod me funny, think, perhaps I was insightfully funny?
  18. I did read it. by Mold · · Score: 3, Informative

    Both the summary here, and the article, call it anti-piracy technology.

    1. Re:I did read it. by iamatlas · · Score: 2, Funny
      Sure, but the title of the article says "anti-copying". As I said in my other response, it's nitpicking. Waste of time for me, really. But, while I'm at it again, seeing as I didn't RTFA, how am I supossed to trust that you're telling the truth, and the article actually says "piracy"? You already knew from my last post that I didn't RTFA, so you could just be preying upon my ignorance. You evil, evil person.

      Honestly, I'm just in a mood today- read some of my other posts and you'll see. Bored mostly, I suppose. Too much slashdot on the weekend.

  19. Why it's called piracy by MarkusQ · · Score: 4, Funny

    In "ye olden days" pirates were people who would go to great lengths, working against heavily armed opponents and risking incarceration or worse in order to obtain something that, nine times out of ten, wasn't worth having in the first place.

    Thus their ledgendary rum consumption.

    Now-a-days it's closer to ninety-nine times out of a hundred, but the principle is the same.

    -- MarkusQ

  20. who cares... by John+Seminal · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The companies hope enough SVP-enabled video playback devices and TV set-top boxes will hit the market in coming years so as to allow consumers to transport the encrypted content to specially equipped SVP devices for playback.

    i won't buy anything like that. i doubt you will see anything new with drm for tv outside of the next 10 years. nothing is going to replace the dvd players. it would take some device that can play with even better resolution like the dvd did with repsect to vhs. the only reason people purchased dvd players is because they are very cheap, and the resolution is considerably better than vhs. for a new device to take off, they will have to make it cheap and so much better. i doubt that anything which is superior to dvd will come out at a cheap enough price that people will buy it in large enough quantities to make a differance. plus, if there is any company that could dominate such a protocol, it would be microsoft. unless they get involved, any other company will not be able to get widespread enough approval from the industry.

    --

    Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

  21. This will prevent piracy how? by dtfinch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sure, they can have make the media unplayable without the chip, but:
    If you can see and hear it, you can copy it.
    If you can make a raw copy of the media, you can pirate it without loss of quality, even if you can only play the copies in an SVP device.

    This sort of technology has no use in preventing piracy, only in making money and killing competition. Manufacturers must license the "technology" or else they can't make devices that will play the latest media. Consumers must purchase new DVD players to replace their perfectly functioning old players (most won't, you can bet). There will be no interoperability with other devices. And PC users will simply be out of luck, unless they decide to license it for software use to companies like Microsoft, which will completely defeat the cryptographic advantages of embedding the DRM in hardware and make it as useless as DSS.

  22. one other thought... by John+Seminal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    if only people could protect their private data from corporate databases, like banks selling customer information to marketing firms or third parties. too bad nobody wants to protect people the way the movie industry wants to protect their content. :(

    --

    Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

  23. Re:encryption -- Moore's Law by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 3, Insightful
    the smartest approach is to publish and patent the encryption scheme, but make it so time consuming, that you will need hardware to do the decryption properly.

    With Moore's Law still in effect and multi-core processors coming, what requires dedicated hardware today may easily become software doable in three years. Which would be about the time it hits mainstream, given that the public buys into it.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  24. Re:Easily Circumvented: by zaxios · · Score: 2, Informative

    But as long as only one isn't deterred

    Of course. It's absurdly stupid of media companies to think they can actually contain piracy. After all, there only needs to be one determined person to make a copy and release it. Their only real success, generally speaking, is to make legitimately purchased media more encumbered and piracy more appealing.

    On the other hand, look at it from a different perspective. If this stops non-perseverent people copying movies for their friends, in the eyes of the entertainment industry, isn't it worth it? That's the sort of success media companies expect inconvenience to bring.

    Obviously, it's a terribly arrogant business model: very much like the Democrats after 2000 blaming Nader - that people's votes didn't need to be earned by the Democrats, that the left were merely obligated to spend them on Gore if other options were removed. Rather than giving anyone any real reason to actually buy movies, the entertainment industry scapegoat piracy and do nothing to actually woo buyers back. Voters, buyers; piracy, Nader. Very apt, actually.

  25. Normally by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm one to say "suck it up" when terms change, like with hacker becomming a bad term. However this is one I say the media industry should get nailed for. Why? Because piracy is still very, very real. In North America and Western Europe we tend to forget about it since we have powerful navies/coast guards that keep our waters essentially free of it.

    Well that's not the case in much of the world. There are still real pirates that really do raid ships, rape, kill and steal. We also aren't talking like once every 10 years or something, we are talking about a reasonably common occurace in relation to other violent crime.

    Thus I think it is quite stupid, and unfair to those that suffer from real piracy, to equate digitally copying a song to violence on the high seas. When real piracy is dead and gone, then maybe I'll accept the transformation of the term.

    1. Re:Normally by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well, the first known use of the word 'pirate' to describe this sort of activity was in 1668, back in the 'golden age' of piracy, when it was much more notorious, and probably more common, than it is even now.

      In fact, if the word were only being coined nowadays, it wouldn't be piracy, because that's not bad enough. It would be terrorism, because the coiner, one J. Hancock, really wanted to villify people who were selling his books without paying him. (Never mind that copyright law hadn't been created yet)

      What he said, by the way, was: "Some dishonest Booksellers, called Land-Pirats, who make it their practise to steal Impressions of other mens Copies." It's in 'Brook's String of Pearls.'

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    2. Re:Normally by gnuman99 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Just like the advent of computers has given an extra meaning to the word 'bug'... It doesn't mean people don't understand you if you say, "ARGHhh... there's a bug in my hair..."

      That's what you get for using C and forgetting to initialize those pointers.. *sigh*

    3. Re:Normally by Oddly_Drac · · Score: 3, Funny

      "Well, the first known use of the word 'pirate' to describe this sort of activity was in 1668, back in the 'golden age' of piracy"

      I'm not a pirate, I'm a privateer.

      --
      Oddly Draconis
      Too cynical to live, too stubborn to die.
  26. If they invested this much money in distribution by ShatteredDream · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Think of how low they could cut the costs of production and distribution which would allow them to sell their products at a lower price, which would make them more attractive to the groups most likely to pirate their goods. I guess I just don't understand why the MPAA's members would rather sit around and piss and moan about piracy instead of trying to defeat it. It's not like it's impossible to make a good deal of extra money off of it.

    Personally, I blame the fascist culture of "right to profit" that has developed. If I build a house that looks identical to yours, have I stolen your house? Do you have a right to tell me to pay you a royalty on the sale of my house? How about the original developer, does he/she?

    If corporations affected by technology would invest their money into researching the new technology and finding ways to update their business model, they'd do well for themselves. But that would require effort and a pretense of competition. It's easier to make the small companies earn their place in the market than make the big ones justify their size and reach.

  27. Screw 'em. by robpoe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With the advent of cheap memory, cheap drives, cheap screens and nifty cool players, WHY is hollywood still stuck in 1989?

    Why do we have to have obsolete 8 gig plastic discs, when our movies (I dont give a shit what they say about you're only licensing it .. I paid for it, it's MINE to do as I please .. are they going to give me my money back when I want to de-license it? No? Piss on them) could be on a little teeny little drive that isn't going to fail because the "shiny disc looked pretty" as a mirror.

    Piss off, Hollywood - I paid you my ransom money now leave me the hell alone.

    Oh yeah, and for that BS copy protection? As long as my eyes see it I'll find a way to get past your POS scheme.

    --
    = Grow a brain...
  28. Re:no free linux dvd player by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    nor free as in Free Software. There never can be any of those as long as the DMCA is on the books.

    All the world is not the USA, at least not yet. It may be illegal in the land of the free, but there are still plenty of other countries where it is legal and can even be Free.

    But what does this have to do with anyone paying a license fee for a DVD-ROM?

    You bet your bippy we do, look up "3c licensing" and "6c licensing" -- the fees are surprisingly high. Even for DVD-ROM rather than DVD-Video equipment.

    We don't pay that either, at least not directly.

    If anything, that makes the fees even higher since each middle-man between you and the manufacturer tacks on a percentage. The higher the base price, the larger the absolute value each middleman adds to the price.

    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  29. Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    All those licensing fees for our DVD-ROMs for nothing

    Simple solution - stop consuming the 'property' of these robber barrons.

    Its not like this is food, shelter or clothing.

  30. Sometimes Enough is Just Enough by Pope+Raymond+Lama · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Come on...I can stop complaining because this week I got a satnd-alone DVD player, and when I went to watch a _legal_ movie on it, because it was connected to an old TV-set, and the only way to do that is to have a VCR to modulate the signal, Macrovision Protection(tm) kicked in, and I could not enjoy the movie at all.

    We are _already_ slaves to the Media companies. Perceive that none of this crap will stop some "Pirate Cappo" who cashes in 100.000 East Asia Bootleg Disks a week - this guy can pay people to bypass wahtever protetcion they put in it.

    It just stop us - ordinary people - from making perfectly legal things, like quote some seconds of a video to a lecture, or whatever.

    --
    -><- no .sig is good sig.
    1. Re:Sometimes Enough is Just Enough by bgackle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I had a similar problem with the Macrovision and an old TV. Ironically, pirated DVD's work just fine.

      So... the copy protection prevents me from playing legitimate movies, forcing me to make a pirated copy if I want to watch the film.

      --
      What we really need is a ten day waiting period and a background check before you can buy a congressman.
  31. How much money has been wasted on this stuff? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Back in the 80's, a lot of people were hyping copy-protection schemes for software. It was basically snake-oil; none of it did any good, and any software which used it soon died because copy-protection doesn't help the consumer.

    Now, here in the 00's, we have the reincarnated version of this. The ONLY people who care about it are the Media conglomerates. Again, not the consumers.

    Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

    So, my big question is this. Does anybody have any actual numbers on how much money has been dumped into these snake-oil schemes?

    A fool and his money are indeed soon parted. It really beats me why spends their time developing this stuff, let alone funding it. Clearly it is self-delusion.

  32. A little pregame strategy... by ryanvm · · Score: 2, Funny

    Okay, how about this time we wait until AFTER they start using the algorithm before we tell them it's been hacked. I'm looking at you Edward Felton. ;-)

  33. The consumer always gets fscked. by Gentlewhisper · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well, so now we have to pay for a new "license" to possess a device that can playback other "licensed" media we bought from the store. For all the licensing, we still need to pay for the license in this damned player to play something we rightfully own.

    Is it just me? Or is everyone starting to get sick from the word "license"?

    So what are we getting here, is a "license" something that I can eat? Or is it something I can use to wipe my ass like toilet paper? Or can a "license" protect me from the elements?

    None! It is really just a pay-and-pay world nowadays. We have to bear all these extra costs just to be able to spend money and view their products?

    I'd say all consumers should unite and show them what consumerism is all about by giving them such a big backlash they will never get to forget it.

    Screw it, it is not like the stuff they make are so worth it anyway. I can't stand the (RIA|MPA|BS)A making such a big fuss over their pathetic ingenuity and creativity.

  34. "PPV Only: This title is not for sale." by tepples · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What if this technology would allow us, at the press of a button, to browse the entire Blockbuster catalog (or, since this is Slashdot, everything from Vivid Videos) and rent the movie for 3 nights on our PVR for $2.99?

    What if a studio releases films under this sort of pay-per-view scheme several months before selling copies in DVD Video format? Or what if a studio decides never to sell copies of one of its films to the public? And what if the studio later decides to pull one of those films from the PPV market, either for some sort of "Disney Vault" business model or for political purposes?

  35. DS-101 [dismal science] by mynameis+(mother+... · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Okay, how about: "I don't buy from people who try to squeeze out every last bit of producer surplus...

    Erm, how about: Okay, how about: "I don't buy from people who try to squeeze out every last bit of comsumer surplus..."

    Hehe, sorry about that, but I'm sure none of us mind minimizing the producers surplus. Refresher:

    1. Consumers Surplus - The area under the demand curve, but above the price
    1. Producers Surplus - The area above the supply curve, but below the price
    [RANT]

    What makes the whole discussion stupid IMHO is that we're all this anti-'piracy' crap is by definition not talking about internal market features. Attacking 'fair use' on the other hand is, if anything, going to lower the demand curve- we are talking about reducing the marginal utility of the widgets here.

    If you were not willing to purchase the product at the 'market clearing price,' then the producers are not losing revenue.

    People downloading free copies of various titles does not directly affect the relevant portion of the demand curve**! Nor does it cause translation along the demand curve! Think of it as 2-tier price discrimination, where a subset of the people who exist to the left/below the market get it at marginal cost :) Crap, that means some consumer surplus. I highly doubt there is a significant cross-elasticity of demand between .torrent's and movie tickets/DVD sales.

    Bootlegging is an entirely seperate discussion. IANAL, but isn't there already a body of legislation that addresses that?

    ** The market externalities involved can in fact shift the demand curve. The marketing exposure can be priceless (bandwagon effects, knowing the product exists, being familiar with a product/brand, etc.), however it also has the [perhaps all too oft] effect of lowering the percieved utility of a product to it's actual value... If you know how much that InternetPrivateDick software [or the-other-12 tracks-on-the-cd, CuteNFuzzy-Jedi-Episode-2 1/2, etc...] suck, you're less likely to pay as much for it
    Naturally, anything that causes consumers to act more rationally or with more complete information might make Economics more workable, much to the distress of all those other social sciences... And likely most politicians... ;)

    And I won't even mention the fact that most restrictions that insulate producers from the market are bad for both society AND the producers, nor that these markets are already far from perfectly competative... Ok, I guess I did mention them...

    [/RANT]
    1. Re:DS-101 [dismal science] by Alsee · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Attacking 'fair use' on the other hand is, if anything, going to lower the demand curve- we are talking about reducing the marginal utility of the widgets here.

      Yep. And I'd just like to add that any attempt to offer a crippled product almost always drops this particular consumer's demand curve to zero.

      I vote with my dollars. I simply refuse to buy DRM crippled crap.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  36. Arr, I be not und'rstandin... by MachDelta · · Score: 4, Funny

    What?! We can do that?! Well where's my governor's daughter!?!

    Oh, I mean.... Shiver me timbers! Whar' be thar scurvy landlubber who's fair lass I may be hav'n ta tup? YARR!!

    *Ahem* Now if you'll excuse me, my download is just about finished here... time to watch a movie! Now where I put me dish o' popper-corn and mug o' ale? Yarr!

    1. Re:Arr, I be not und'rstandin... by aminorex · · Score: 2, Informative

      Excuse me, but International Talk-Like-A-Pirate Day isn't until September 19.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
  37. I got my junior reporters badge! by tsm_sf · · Score: 3, Funny

    Crafty programmers have discovered ways to crack into DVD players, for example, to make copies of Hollywood movies quickly and cheaply.

    You can crack a DVD player to burn discs? That's gotta be one of the sweeter hacks I've heard about. Or maybe by 'crack' the reporter means 'buy professional DVD duplicating equipment'.

    It's almost a peaceful feeling to watch the heat death of one's society.

    --
    Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
  38. Re:If they invested this much money in distributio by westlake · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Personally, I blame the fascist culture of "right to profit" that has developed. If I build a house that looks identical to yours, have I stolen your house? Do you have a right to tell me to pay you a royalty on the sale of my house? How about the original developer, does he/she?

    If I contracted with an architect for an original design, and the rights to the design, then, damn right I would be demanding royalties on production and sale of a copy. If I were really pissed off I might sue for demolition.

  39. Great! by Tom7 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Great! The more incompatible "standards" there are, the less likely this stuff will catch on.

  40. Re:Easily Circumvented: by suckmysav · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "the entertainment industry scapegoat piracy and do nothing to actually woo buyers back"

    I read somewhere recently that if you were to take away the massive box office sales made by Mel Gibsons very un-hollywoodish "Jesus Chainsaw Massacre" then box office sales overall would be down by 10%.

    I doubt very much that box office sales are affected by DVD piracy, so the natural conclusion is that Hollywood are simply making crappier movies now than they have ever made before.

    Movie making for dummies^h^h^h^h^h^hHollywood Executives;

    1) Identify an as yet unrehashed TV show or movie from the 60's 70's or 80's.

    2) Cast some generic stars for the lead roles and pay them huge amounts of money.

    3) Obtain the cheapest, crappiest script possible.

    4) Blow vast amounts of money producing an over-hyped piece of crap that has little or no resemblance to the original and absolutely none of its charm.

    5) Complain that the internet is to blame when it tanks at the box office

    6) Move onto next project, return to 1)

    I can't wait for the big screen edition of The A-Team, starring Richard Dean Anderson as "Hannibal", Ashton Kutcher as "Murdoch", Owen Wilson as "Face", and special guest star Iron Mike Tyson as "Mr T"

    Oh god, it hurts already

    --
    "You can't fight in here, this is the war room!"
  41. Re:The stockholder model. by 808140 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You're focusing on points in his post that are rather minor. The main thrust of what he said is rather insightful (and I would mod it as such, if I had modpoints) -- simply, that in today's "Information Age", corporations can't fuck the consumer and assume that there's nothing he's going to be able to do about it, simply because he (in all likelyhood) isn't technologically adept enough to fix it.

    For example, in the old days, copying from one tape to another was restricted and there were silly copy protection schemes for VHS, which were trivial to circumvent if you knew what you were doing. In this case, the "good enough" mantra was key: the corps knew that only 1% of the population "knew what they were doing", but 99% of their consumer base would be powerless to circumvent the system.

    But in today's world, the technically adept %1 can distribute their rips, information on how to rip, etc, etc, to the average consumer.

    Stuff like the broadcast flag, DRM, etc, these things annoy the hell out of even the non-technically adept. Whereas before they would grin and bear it, now they look up how to get around it on the web (where people like us post easy, step by step instructions), or they go to Kazaa or Grokster or whatever, and download a copy the technically adept have conveniently made for them.

    The world isn't the same as it used to be. Security through obscurity is not even remotely "good enough", even in the short term, anymore. Because we live in a world of distributed information. And the average joe who may not have the skills to hack hardware will obtain what he wants from those that can. For free.

  42. The real issue by MarkusQ · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The marketing exposure can be priceless (bandwagon effects, knowing the product exists, being familiar with a product/brand, etc.),
    This is of course the real reason they are so up in arms about P2P, etc.: not that stuff they control is being distributed "by word of mouth" but that stuff they don't control will be. If a band can make it without ever signing with a label, if an independent film can reach the audience without a distributor, a lot of middle-meddlers are going to be very, very unemployed.

    -- MarkusQ

  43. The reason it's called piracy by Moridineas · · Score: 2, Informative

    This, despite protestations to the contrary, is NOT a new usage. The OED gives usage examples of piracy / pirate in the context of written works going back to the 17th century, with indications that usage existed even earlier.

    Piracy as applied to radio goes back to at least 1913.

    This is one term you CAN'T blame on the RIAA :-p

    (and I'd be happy to provide citations if you'd like)

  44. Don't panic! by belgar · · Score: 2, Informative

    If the Thomson hardware is as crappily shitacular as the Thomson DVD drive in my XBox, we have nothing to worry about -- either it will fail to enable the copy protection scheme correctly, and movies will be watchable, or it won't let you watch *anything* -- in which case, the machines will be yet another failed technology on the trash heap.

    --
    What does it mean to wake out of a dream
    and be wearing someone else's shorts?
    BNL, Born on a Pirate Ship (1998)
  45. Re:I Have The Solution by Mike+deVice · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Slightly offtopic, but this reminds me of something I tend to tell people a lot. I've had friends who become paranoid about putting pictures or whatever online, looking for javascript to prevent right-clicking and watermarking everything. I shake my head, and I tell them, "If you don't want people to be able to copy something, don't put it online." Javascript is easy enough to bypass, and watermarks are easy enough to remove.

    Now, I'm not saying people shouldn't be a little piqued if they find that their content has been copied. But being a little philosophical about this can save you a lot of stress.

    Personally, when I stick something I created online, I figure it would be flattering to find it elsewhere. And some people might even have the decency to credit me for it, which is always nice.

  46. Re:If they invested this much money in distributio by westlake · · Score: 2, Insightful
    And somebody else having the same design would lessen your enjoyment of your own house? Sounds like sour grapes to me. Like a smug, selfish, spoiled child who thinks that having something unique makes them more important, and a 'better person' somehow.

    It is surely the envious, the lustful, the smug and the spoiled, who would demand the right to the fruits of another's creation without payment or consent.

  47. Make copying legal when it's unavailable legally by r6144 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Demand publishers make a new movie/novel/whatever easily available to people in a sufficiently uncrippled format at a reasonable price, and any copying during the time by the people to whom the thing is unavailable will not be counted as infringement, though the publishers are allowed to demand unauthorized copying to stop, and (possibly) ask people who has obtained these copies to either destroy them or buy one at that reasonable price (no fines), when they make the thing available.

    Here an "sufficiently uncrippled format" should be a format that allows users to enjoy the work in perpetuity, with no further obligation to the publisher, possibly by using backups and/or software (not applicable if such things are precluded by DRM, patents or whatever). For example, software in ordinary CD-ROMs without timebombs in them is included, so are paper books (you can scan them) and non-crippled music CDs (you can rip them and backup them forever, and you will always be able to play the PCM data). DVDs should also be included, especially when related patents expire and DeCSS is legalized, so that you can rip the bits and play it on the computer anytime in future, when hardware DVD players and DVD-ROMs may be no longer available. In contrast, any time-limited or player-limited versions, such as those using that SVP technology mentioned here, will not count (unless it can be legally hacked), and the publisher had better make it available in some other less-crippled format at the same time. This rule can be loosened for new kinds of copyrightable works for which no such perfect backup mechanisms are available yet, but these should be special cases.

    As for a "reasonable" price, I think up to twice the normal price would be acceptable at first, for example up to $40 for a DVD. If the publisher want higher prices, they should make every buyer sign an agreement with them promising that they will not copy the thing they have bought, i.e., it should no longer be of the copyright law's concern.

    And if movie publishers want to stop people cameraing their movies and making bootleg copies, they'd better either release the thing in DVD at the same time, or sign an agreement with everyone watching it (no children allowed).

    In short, I want to respect your copyright, but if you make your thing public (i.e., not a trade secret or privacy-related stuff), and you don't want to accept my money, you still have no right to prevent me from enjoying it.

  48. good old RCA/Thomsen by fred133 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    they stole television from Farnsworth,patented technology that they took from the color consortium,sold their consumer division to thomsen in the 90's and moved the jobs from Indianapolis to Mexico and other offshore places,
    Now they are back in the "video" business making encryption chips.
    What's New?

  49. We Already Have Commercials on DVD's by norm1153 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ... All those previews at the beginning of the DVD that you cannot skip past: "This Operation is Prohibited By The Disc."

    After all, the player is the hardware and the disc is the software.

    They are merely increasing their commercial intrusions; there are more "previews" on recent releases than I used to see.

    It's gotten so I am afraid to invest any more than $9.95 in a DVD, because higher priced DVD's usually are more recent titles, hence have a greater chance of showing advertisements for other current releases.

    Norm

  50. Legal copying of copy-protected by phorm · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Copy protection blocks both legal and illegal copies. There is nothing wrong with copying a DVD, especially for backup (or active use in the case of backing up or archiving the original).

    Really, it's the distribution of the copied DVDs which is illegal, something which the movie companies (and music companies in regards to CDs) generally leave out when mentioning the "terrible hackers" and their circumvention of copy-protection.

  51. A question of principles by Deorus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I wonder if all those people do not have principles. What are they seeking for? World domination? I think people with such invasive ideas should be publicly humiliated until they learned.

    Usually I feel compelled to follow the rules and not copy stuff, but this kind of protection makes me kinda think about doing the oposite, not because I need, but because of their intentions to limit my freedom, 'cause I HATE to be forced!

    I like to be told what the rules are and what can happen if I don't follow them, but I also appreciate my freedom to choose not to follow them if I wish.

  52. Of *course* you can blame the RIAA by billstewart · · Score: 3, Funny

    Those thieves BLATANTLY STOLE THE TERM, and probably didn't pay the originators of it for the use of their linguistic properties. It's plagiarism at the very least - why next thing you know, people will be appropriating the narratives of Brothers Grimm and claiming their fairy tales are now "intellectual property".

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  53. The issue on copying by Johnny+Hardcore · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The issue of copying music isn't IF you can copy it, it's HOW WELL you can do it. No matter what you do to protect your media content, it has to be playable on your standard TV, stereo, or whatnot. I mean, I can easily copy any movie you give me with a camcorder, right? :)

    The industry would be better off figuring out how they should be selling their products instead of how to gouge the general public. Ventures like this have always proven to end in failure, and always make things more inconvenient for the people who actually pay for it (usually the less technically-savy too)!

    Isn't it funny how you can copy an Aerosmith CD and steal from Sony Music, with your Sony CD burner and CD-R and support Sony Electronics? Who really loses? ;)

  54. Slow death? by pfriedma · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As previously mentioned, with each copy-protection system tried, they are broken, worked around, or otherwise caused to fail. The recording industry (and collective associates) have spent big money on bigger/better ways of troubling their coustomers... I can't imagine suing all of your [potential] customers is good for business? Personally, I could see myself downloading a song that I might have heard a bit of on the radio or something, likeing it, then buying the CD... but if I were to be sued for the mentioned download, fscked if I'm gonna give them any *more* money. I really wonder how long it will be before this industry spends all it's money on troubling their customers and none on actually producing/marketing worthwhile media, and simply dies.

    --
    Mak'tal shree lok'tak mek'ta sa'tak Oz! - Daniel Jackson
  55. greed is unethical by kardar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    unfortunately, many parts of the entertainment industry, including parts of Hollywood, are engaging in what can only be characterized as greedy practices. There is a certain degree of price fixing going on, not to mention that the media would be less expensive if they stopped wasting money on copy protection technology.

    I understand that it costs lots of money to make CGI and other things, and this is also part of the problem, part of the lack of any real choices for the consumer.

    It would be better if it were acceptable to make movies on lower budgets; it would be better if more talented artists, directors, producers, etc... could have an opportunity to express themselves to a wider audience, and if these types of things were to take place, naturally, the price of a DVD would go down somewhat. Maybe not a whole lot, but somewhat - and it might also vary from movie to movie.

    I cannot help but to think that there is greed occurring on the part of the entertainment industry - that greed is just as unethical as what is called "piracy" today. Of course you still have probably some areas of the world where people make illegal copies and sell them - that's something else entirely. These days, piracy and copy protection are really aimed at the consumer. That's greed - it's greed because it's unnecessary to aim it at the consumer. Maybe Spock would say, "Greed isn't logical."

    So circumventing the copy protections is nothing more than bringing the greedy companies to justice - in a way. Circumventing copy protections is a necessary evil, so to speak. But of course it would be better if it wasn't necessary at all. Perhaps many people wouldn't even mind purchasing two copies, in case one gets scratched up or something - it's just that they are too expensive, so no one does that.

  56. Re:If they invested this much money in distributio by Saeger · · Score: 2, Interesting
    It is surely the envious, the lustful, the smug and the spoiled, who would demand the right to the fruits of another's creation without payment or consent.

    You want your precious "intellectual property" to remain unique and artificially scarce? Then keep it a secret! Information, once unleashed, naturally spreads from mind to mind like a virus; the vast majority of people are OK with this natural state of ideas because at a gut level it just FEELS RIGHT and it promotes progress.

    You want to get paid for the fruits of your labor in the face of the new reality of millions of 'dirty, envious, spoiled pirates'? Then get paid UPFRONT for the scarce (and often not-so-scarce) act of original creation, just as a plumber gets paid for a job well-done, rather than getting royalty payments for an artful and propietary pipe fitting his grandfather did in 1930 that no other plumber could dare build on...

    --

    --
    Power to the Peaceful
  57. What really matters by samjam · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What really matters is

    1) what a judge says the law means
    2) how the judge says this law applies to the...
    3) ... highly contrived construction that the prosecuter has put upon the facts
    4) ...after successfully having a lot of other
    facts "excluded" from the case

    The only good defence is good publicity so that the scheming can be seen. A bit of daylight and a few watchers helps folk behave.

    Sam

  58. STOP AIMING FOR THE IMPOSSIBLE by ajs318 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    PART ONE

    Copy prevention which permits legitimate use whilst denying "other" uses is impossible. Not just supremely difficult, actually impossible. That is not a limitation of present technology that will be resolved by a sufficiently clever invention; it is a limitation of the Universe, like nothing being able to exceed the speed of light or a system never being able to put out more energy than is being supplied to it. Human beings will walk naked upon the surface of the Sun before copy-prevention is made to work.

    The Secure Player is designed to render digitally-encrypted content into a form that humans can appreciate. In other words, analogue audio and video. Such signals can always be copied and re-recorded in an unencrypted form, and there is no way for the Player to be certain what is happening downstream of itself. Any form of distortion applied to the signal in a blanket attempt to prevent recording must be imperceptible to humans watching the signal. Any attempt to detect the presence of a recording device {time domain reflectometry?} can be defeated, since we have the advantage of knowing what measurements are being made.

    PART TWO

    The publishing industry -- and whether that be books, records, movies, CDs, videos or DVDs, the rules are the same -- has always depended for its very existence upon a simple idea: that the initial cost of the wherewithal to package-up content in a form that will be acceptable to consumers is great enough to prevent anybody from entering the industry. It should have been obvious that this situation would not persist forever. The moment that the printing-press had been invented, someone had already begun work on making a portable version.

    Now let us compare and contrast the situation of the publishing industry with two other almost universally disliked industries: the fossil fuel industry, and the meat industry. The fossil fuel industry continues to extract coal and oil from the gaping wounds in the flesh of Mother Earth. One day there simply will not be any more oil or coal left down there. Even before that day dawns, there has to come a time when non-fossil fuels are the cheaper option. At least the meat industry has the foresight to breed enough animals to replace the rotting corpses upon which its supporters gorge themselves. There is nothing inherently unsustainable about feeding an animal and using its body to rearrange amino acids. With careful management, it is perfectly possible to obtain a supply of meat which is limited only by the amount of fodder available; and turning plants into burgers this way is less wasteful of resources than artificially texturising proteins (though it does rankle with the prevailing creed of mortality-denialism).

    It is my contention that the publishing industry today is in the situation that the fossil fuel industry will face very soon. Everything that the publishing industry depended on for its business model to function has been annihilated. Today, the cost of the equipment required to manufacture DVDs, CDs, books and so forth is close to negligible, and entry into the market depends only on the willingness of customers to buy the wares you are selling.

    PART THREE

    Copyright violation is not the same as theft. If I steal a CD from a store, the store no longer has that CD to sell. If I make a copy of my friend's CD, my friend has their CD back once I am done. The store cannot sell that CD to me, because I already have another copy of it; but so what? There might be a million and one other reasons why a store might lose the ability to sell me a CD, not the least of which is that I might not even like it.

    I see a CD recorder as being somewhat analogous to a breadmaker. I buy my own blank CD-Rs [flour, yeast, salt, sugar and water] and use my own effort, together with electricity I have paid for with money I earned by my own graft, to make bread for my consumption [CDs for me to listen to].

    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!